The Divorce Expert: 86% of People Who Divorce Remarry! Why Sex Is Causing Divorces! If They Say This, Do Not Marry Them!

0:00:07 All marital problems stem from two things and that’s what about sex how often is
0:00:13 sex the issue in divorce oh my god James sextant the world’s number one divorce
0:00:18 lawyer specializing in billionaires athletes and celebrities for over two
0:00:23 decades giving him a unique insight into how relationships fail and succeed
0:00:29 there’s about a 56% chance that your marriage will end in divorce yet 86% of
0:00:33 people remarry within five years but most people have no idea what they are
0:00:38 getting themselves and a great example of that would be prenups who gets what
0:00:42 when they break up correct and the most shocking prenup I’ve ever seen said
0:00:47 that for every 10 pounds the wife gained she would lose $10,000 a month in
0:00:52 alimony 10 pounds of weight and that was enforceable good money issues lead to
0:00:55 divorce oh it’s controversial what’s the quickest someone’s gone from marriage
0:00:59 to divorce 48 hours who cheats more men or women you’ll be shocked to hear
0:01:03 it’s have you ever seen violence during a divorce they ran her over four times
0:01:07 and stabbed her Jesus Christ so here’s the question then should we get married
0:01:11 and then do you think love is a terrible idea I think it’s insane to love
0:01:18 anything because someday that’ll be gone and this thing’s gonna break my heart
0:01:21 no matter what I lose
0:01:30 but that’s not a reason not to love and I think there’s something really
0:01:35 important there congratulations die-over-seer gang we’ve made some
0:01:40 progress 63% of you that listen to this podcast regularly don’t subscribe
0:01:47 which is down from 69% our goal is 50% so if you’ve ever liked any of the videos
0:01:50 we’ve posted if you like this channel can you do me a quick favor and hit the
0:01:53 subscribe button it helps this channel more than you know and the bigger the
0:01:57 channel gets as you’ve seen the bigger the guests get thank you and enjoy this
0:02:00 episode
0:02:08 James I’ve never spoken to somebody that does what you do what do you do I’m a
0:02:14 divorce lawyer I’m a divorce lawyer who represents people in contested divorce
0:02:18 and custody proceedings in court so it’s the fact that you’ve never spoken to
0:02:22 someone who does what I do is a good thing it means that either you’ve not
0:02:25 married or it means that you’ve successfully married to the point where
0:02:29 you would never end up in my office by the time someone sets foot in my office
0:02:34 something’s gone terribly wrong in their life because no one ever meant to meet
0:02:39 me no one ever meant to be in my office ever what is the probability that
0:02:44 someday I do meet somebody like you and not in this context well if you marry
0:02:50 there’s about a 56% chance that your marriage will end in divorce now that
0:02:54 doesn’t take into consideration how many people may consult with a divorce
0:02:57 lawyer because they’re having difficulty in their marriage but they choose
0:03:00 subsequent to meeting me not to divorce for some particular reason whether
0:03:04 that’s they don’t want to part with half of their funds or they’ve just decided
0:03:08 it’s easier to stay miserable and with a person or they’re staying together for
0:03:11 the kids but they want to know what their rights were so if you marry the
0:03:16 chances of meeting someone like me are more likely than not if we look at it
0:03:21 that way because it’s more than 50% so it’s a it’s a high number you know but
0:03:24 if we define failure as all of the other things you’ve described there where we
0:03:26 kind of stay together but we’re miserable or we stay together for some
0:03:32 other reason how what percentage of marriages on that basis do you think
0:03:37 actually fail I mean if we consider the pot if we consider failure staying
0:03:42 together miserable for the children or staying together for financial economic
0:03:48 reasons and then we add that to the 56% that end in divorce then I mean it would
0:03:52 be very hard to track that but I I think it’s generous to think it’s another 20
0:03:56 percent probably but but I mean think about what that adds up to that means
0:04:02 that you’ve got you’ve got something that fails 70 75 percent of the time
0:04:07 that’s a that’s a negligent activity that’s you know that’s that is more
0:04:13 likely than not to cause significant harm in your life so I don’t say that to
0:04:17 sound like the grim reaper when it comes to marriage I actually really think
0:04:21 marriage is a lovely thing and I get misty-eyed at weddings like anybody and
0:04:27 not just for you know future business purposes I I think I think the
0:04:32 statistic that’s even more interesting to me than how many marriages end in
0:04:37 divorce or how many people stay together miserable is that 86% of people who
0:04:44 divorce remarry within five years so think about that now you’ve you’ve done
0:04:50 this thing it’s failed you’ve gone through this difficult process of having to
0:04:57 undo it and now within five years 86% of people remarry I mean so that that tells
0:05:02 you how important this is to us as humans how drawn to this idea this
0:05:09 technology of marriage we are and and that to me is fascinating because I’ve
0:05:15 often said like I’m not sure what marriage was designed what problem is
0:05:22 marriage designed to solve see the fact that it takes this long to think if I
0:05:28 said to you what what purpose does this technology this mug what does it serve
0:05:31 well that’s easy right it’s hard to drink out of your hands and someone would
0:05:34 have to keep coming up and pouring things in our hands okay well that’s pretty
0:05:38 straightforward what problem does this solve well that’s easy right we want to
0:05:41 get you know the ringstains around we get yelled at by our significant other
0:05:45 for not using a coaster so these are easy things but marriage something so
0:05:50 ubiquitous that it’s assumed it’s assumed if you’re dating someone for a few
0:05:56 years and you say guess what we’re getting married everyone goes well of
0:06:00 course phenomenal congratulations that’s great of course you’re gonna do that you
0:06:04 know you make an honest woman of her of course whereas if you say you know we’ve
0:06:07 been together for three four years we decided we’re not gonna get married people
0:06:10 go what’s wrong with this guy he’s got intimacy issues he’s not getting you
0:06:15 know what’s the problem that you don’t want to get married whereas rationally the
0:06:19 response should be you know oh yeah we’re getting married what are you
0:06:22 kidding me why are you doing that it’s like someone saying I’m gonna go sky
0:06:27 diving it’s like wait are you crazy that’s a dangerous thing to do you know
0:06:31 and it’s not I mean listen to skydiving it’s not like a 75 percent 76 percent of
0:06:36 people die who are skydiving so the truth is like it it it makes very little
0:06:44 sense to me that marriage is assumed to be a thing you will do when in fact we
0:06:51 as a species are so unbelievably bad at it that sort of 86 percent that then get
0:06:57 remarried after divorce are they then have they learned from their mistakes are
0:07:02 they better this time it’s different this time it’s different it’s this time I’m
0:07:06 really in love that other time when I thought I was in love that wasn’t it
0:07:11 this time it’s different it really it’s a it’s a blind spot you know and again
0:07:15 where does it come from you’d have to ask people smarter than me you know it
0:07:20 could be neuroscience it could be the realm of a real deep social psychology
0:07:24 it could just be a cognitive bias I have no idea it could be a delusion brought
0:07:30 on by inadequate lighting you know but but the whatever it is we go oh yeah
0:07:35 but this one’s different this way I did a prenup last week for a guy who went
0:07:39 through the one of the ugliest divorces I’ve ever seen and and that’s not
0:07:43 hyperbole like I’ve been doing this for 25 years just to say so for me to say
0:07:48 the ugliest divorce I’ve ever seen is that’s amazing that’s like that’s a
0:07:52 really big debt’s like a Michelin chef saying this was the best meal I’ve ever
0:07:57 had so this guy had a horrific divorce that lasted four or five years he’s
0:08:04 remarrying a woman 30 years younger than him who he met four months ago and when
0:08:10 I said to him as artfully intactfully as I could you know you’ve only known this
0:08:14 person for a short time and you know have you thought about maybe just you
0:08:17 know being a little cautious in terms of who you’ve seen how difficult a divorce
0:08:22 can be you know do you think maybe it might be he tells oh no this is no I’ve
0:08:26 never felt anything like this I’ve never been this in love I’ve never been so
0:08:32 connected with someone we just get each other and you know that it would be very
0:08:37 indelicate and rude for me to say like snap out of it man you got to get your
0:08:43 like really you know bring your logical brain to this this equation do not
0:08:47 bring the part of you that’s just filled with romance and has Christmas in your
0:08:51 eyes like really you got to look at this honestly do you see a lot of gold
0:08:57 diggers do you see a lot of gold digger sort of patterns I you see
0:09:01 someone that’s incredibly wealthy you see someone that’s 40 years younger than
0:09:06 them yeah yeah I see a lot of that I mean I you know I’m hesitant to say
0:09:11 gold diggers because I think that has a a pejorative like built into it that
0:09:16 somehow I think that that people bring different things to the table in
0:09:21 relationships I think love is an economy and I don’t I’m not saying that in a
0:09:27 way that that devalues love I think that love is a verb I think that love is an
0:09:32 emotion and I think that love is an economy you know there there is a giving
0:09:37 and taking of value and and that can be incredibly symbiotic you know that can
0:09:43 be incredibly healthy and wonderful that that you know I am way too serious and
0:09:46 the person who I’m with is going to bring lightness and levity to the
0:09:49 relationship and I’m going to help them be a little more serious and they’re
0:09:53 going to help me lighten up you know and I’m hard charging and hard working and
0:09:58 everything’s like 10 moves ahead and and my partner’s gonna like help me calm
0:10:03 down and help me you know not be so hard charging and be a little softer be a
0:10:07 little kinder and rest my head and give me a sort of warm place to do that like
0:10:12 that’s beautiful we’re each bringing something different so if I’m a powerful
0:10:19 hard-working financially successful financially secure man and I meet a
0:10:25 young beautiful woman who has energy and excitement and who has tremendous gifts
0:10:29 but doesn’t have the resources to be able to do much with that you know like
0:10:34 she’s a talented artist but you know she’s busy working you know a thankless
0:10:38 awful job you know like slinging cappuccinos you know and and she she’s
0:10:43 not able to in this prime of her life focus on this thing she’s so talented
0:10:48 at and I can say to her hey listen why don’t you focus on that and I have
0:10:52 resources and abundance of them and I’m happy to share them with you and and
0:10:56 feel like I’m part of your success and you in turn are part of my success
0:11:01 because you give me this wonderful respite from the chaos of my work and and
0:11:06 like I don’t think that that’s a dishonest economy I don’t think that so
0:11:09 like to say a gold digger sort of implies like oh she’s in it for the
0:11:12 money and it’s okay well I’m in it for the beauty you know so does that mean
0:11:17 I’m a horrible shallow person or is beauty beautiful is beauty something you
0:11:23 want to be around and and if we’re honest about the interaction how is that
0:11:28 predatory how is that unfair to either of us you know if we’re honest about it
0:11:33 like what’s harder for me to deal with is when I have a client who is you know
0:11:40 150 pounds overweight five foot seven and and there is just nothing about him
0:11:46 that aesthetically or even personality wise a woman would go oh that’s my guy
0:11:52 but he’s a billionaire you know and and he’s got a young gorgeous woman who’s
0:11:57 allegedly madly in love with him and he really believes that it’s his personality
0:12:01 and it’s nothing to do with the fact that he’s a billionaire or that that is a
0:12:07 very small consideration that feels to me like the worst kind of delusion you
0:12:10 know whereas you could very honestly say like yeah we each bring different
0:12:13 things to the table we each bring different things to each other’s lives
0:12:19 and then yeah so it is it is a quote-unquote gold digger but you know
0:12:27 it’s also a man who wants to to to buy the company of someone who might not
0:12:30 otherwise be interested in him if he wasn’t so successful so I think there’s
0:12:33 a there’s a give and a take in that relationship I think that’s very fair
0:12:38 have you have you seen examples of the latter example where you describe that
0:12:43 billionaire where there’s not many redeeming qualities where they’re heading
0:12:50 towards marriage they don’t yet have a prenup you’re maybe advising them that
0:12:54 they should get a prenup and they’re not interested because they’re so deluded
0:12:57 by the belief that the person is interested in their wonderful personality
0:13:04 or yeah so so the prenup conversation is a really interesting one because I do
0:13:09 a lot of prenups sure prenuptial agreement is a contract between two
0:13:14 people that defines the rule set essentially for their marriage so so
0:13:17 marriage when we talk about marriage you know people tend to just sort of use
0:13:21 the word marriage and they’re actually talking about a number of different
0:13:26 things like in some context marriage is a spiritual commitment right it’s a
0:13:31 religious commitment it’s tied to in Catholicism it’s a sacrament in in
0:13:37 Judaism it’s a covenant with God you know in Islam it has its own status so
0:13:43 marriage exists as a religious concept socially we have a definition of
0:13:47 marriage right like I am married to this person we have married our destinies to
0:13:52 each other we have agreed that we are each other’s person and then marriage
0:13:58 has a specific legal definition and my job as a divorce lawyer is to take that
0:14:03 piece apart for someone or to create protections for people who are
0:14:07 contemplating entering into that legal status so like you you’ve been to
0:14:12 weddings right I’m sure you’ve never at the end of the wedding said great guys
0:14:15 I had a wonderful time the cake was delicious I need to see the paperwork
0:14:19 can I can I see the license now I just want to make sure everything was done
0:14:22 properly and that there were witnesses you’ve never said that you’ve never said
0:14:27 to your parents can I see your marriage license I’d like to make sure everything’s
0:14:32 in order here that’s not how it works so we don’t do that so you could go have
0:14:37 a wedding and tell people that you’re married and never actually legally
0:14:41 married you could just tell people that you’re married you don’t check people’s
0:14:45 paperwork like you can just wear a ring if you want to and similarly if you
0:14:49 don’t wear a ring it doesn’t mean you’re not legally married like you could be
0:14:51 legally married and still take your ring off and you’re still legally married if
0:14:57 it was just as easy as taking the ring off I’d be out of a job so marriage is a
0:15:01 legal status that’s one of the meanings of marriage and a prenuptial agreement
0:15:08 the way I would describe it is two people deciding that they having picked
0:15:13 each other out of eight billion people to choose from in the world are in a
0:15:18 better position to make the rules that will govern the economics of their
0:15:23 relationship than the legislature would be then politicians would be and
0:15:27 anyone who’s ever been to the Department of Motor Vehicles or who’s ever been
0:15:32 to you know any government agency very rarely would you interact with a
0:15:36 government agency and go we should definitely put these people in charge of
0:15:40 our family life like they’re gonna do a great job they’re really crushing it
0:15:46 you know like that’s not something people yet most people who are married have
0:15:50 almost no idea what legal rights and obligations were conferred on them by
0:15:53 getting married they just have no idea it’s the most legally significant thing
0:15:58 they’re going to do in their life other than die and they have no idea what
0:16:02 the rights and obligations are and those rights and obligations can change so
0:16:08 like politics and the legislature and the way that rules that govern the
0:16:13 spousal support rights child support rights the division of property those
0:16:18 are subject to change by government change so for example in the United
0:16:22 States alimony spousal support maintenance whatever we want to call it
0:16:26 which is a payment a person makes to their spouse when there’s been an
0:16:31 economic disparity in the marriage and now they’re getting divorced that used
0:16:35 to be tax deductible it used to have no formula it was at the discretion of a
0:16:39 judge then in 2016 Trump came into office and he said yeah I’m not letting it be
0:16:43 tax deductible anymore so completely changed now you’re already married at
0:16:48 this point and now the rules about what governs your marriage have changed so
0:16:53 there aren’t a lot of contracts in the world that people could enter into that
0:16:56 the terms could wildly change due to circumstances beyond your control and
0:17:02 you’re still in that same contract so prenuptial agreements are designed for
0:17:06 two people who at that moment have an abundance of affection for each other
0:17:10 if they didn’t then there’s no reason that they should be getting married that
0:17:15 they make up a rule set that’s going to govern their relationship and that
0:17:18 typically as we see it in movies and such and we hear about it in culture is
0:17:22 really deciding who gets what when they break up right correct now it’s hard to
0:17:29 say in advance who gets what when we break up sometime in the future because
0:17:34 we don’t know what we’re gonna have in 10 years in 20 years so what do you do
0:17:40 you create structures like you create you know I refer to the simplest prenup
0:17:45 as a yours mine and ours which is if it’s in my name whether it’s an asset or
0:17:49 liability it’s mine free from any claim by you free from any obligation to you
0:17:53 if it’s in your name it’s yours free from any claim by me any obligation to me
0:17:58 ours if it’s in our joint names then we’re equally responsible for it if
0:18:03 it’s an obligation or we equally are entitled to half the value of it if it’s
0:18:09 an asset that to me just creating those three buckets now here’s the problem you
0:18:14 create those three buckets you both sign off on it and you get married you can’t
0:18:18 just set it and forget it now you actually have to have conversations with
0:18:22 this person that you’re married to which theoretically you should be able to do
0:18:26 right like if you’ve decided this is gonna be my primary relationship this
0:18:32 is the person I’m gonna tie my destiny to you should be able to talk about hey I
0:18:36 just got this big bonus at work I’m gonna put this much in my sole account and
0:18:39 I’m gonna put this much in the joint account and they should be able to say
0:18:41 if you’re the other person well why are you putting so much of it in your
0:18:45 personal account like are things weird with us or something or is there you
0:18:49 know have some conversation again about why are we marrying it’s a it’s that
0:18:56 economy concept which is look what do I owe you if I marry you I’d like to know
0:19:01 that in advance because people say to me all the time you know well I married
0:19:06 this person and when we got married he had nothing he had nothing and he built
0:19:11 his business while he was married to me and I was very you know there for him
0:19:16 while he was building it so therefore I believe I’m entitled to half the value
0:19:21 of that business now that’s a logical argument I don’t know that I agree with
0:19:28 it but it’s logical but keep going with that logic right so if that was true and
0:19:32 I built this business and my wife who was married to me while I was building
0:19:38 that business she helped make that okay well her mother and father helped make
0:19:43 who she is so I owe them something right like I because if they hadn’t done what
0:19:46 they did I wouldn’t have her and if I didn’t have her I wouldn’t have my
0:19:51 business so how much do I owe them and you know now that I think about it her
0:19:56 grandmother definitely influenced to her mother was which influenced who she was
0:20:01 which influenced what she did for me so just can you let me know in advance how
0:20:05 far down the chain do I owe people and how much do I owe them they can’t all get
0:20:10 half so did they get half of the half of the half or do I like and and if this is
0:20:16 the logic that we’re gonna follow then I would like to know in advance what that
0:20:21 is because there are no other transactions where if you went in to
0:20:26 purchase a car and you said how much is this car and they said money he said well
0:20:30 how much you know it’s a good amount okay I again we just keep talking in
0:20:35 abstractions I’d like to know what does this add up to how much is it you know
0:20:39 and even if you can’t make it a dollar number it’s x percent of last year’s
0:20:44 earnings or like give me a formula something to tie it to and at least have
0:20:49 that conversation because then you can decide am I gonna sign up for this thing
0:20:53 or not you must meet a lot of people who are in a relationship where one of the
0:20:58 people doesn’t want to have a prenup yes because I because I when I think about
0:21:01 having a prenup I’m with a woman at the moment we’ve been together for five
0:21:06 years and frankly if I said to her I want to get a prenup she would be all for it
0:21:10 she would that’s the type of person she is she’ll be a phrase doesn’t care she’d
0:21:14 be all for excellent done well but I can imagine in other relationships I’d be
0:21:18 nervous even say the words because immediately you’re thinking about how
0:21:22 you’re getting out before you get in yeah well and you know there’s a lot to
0:21:27 do that there’s a lot to unpack there so the first thing I would say is all
0:21:32 marriages end they end in death or they end in divorce but they all end right and
0:21:37 so if you said I’m gonna get life insurance it would be foolish for
0:21:41 someone who’s with you to say wait are you planning on dying soon like it no but
0:21:45 in the event that I do I’d like to make sure that things are taken care of in a
0:21:48 certain way and in the event that I do there’s gonna be enough things to be
0:21:51 upset and sad about for the people around me so I’d like them to have one less
0:21:56 thing you know and I also know that there’s a possibility I hope I won’t
0:21:59 but there’s a possibility that I’m gonna die in an hour so I’d really hope it
0:22:04 doesn’t happen but I can’t say it’s definitely not gonna happen so divorce
0:22:08 you know when we look at statistics like that it’s okay to say hey look you
0:22:13 know what I hope this never happens but if it did what do we owe each other you
0:22:16 know what would you need like it’s not just a conversation about what do I
0:22:21 want to keep what am I entitled to keep it’s also what would you need have you
0:22:24 seen it break down a marriage because someone mentioned a prenup have you
0:22:28 seen it yeah I’ve seen marriage I’ve seen marriages that were scheduled to
0:22:33 happen not happen because the prenup discussion happened but more often than
0:22:39 not I’ve seen the threat of not marrying someone because they want you to sign a
0:22:45 prenup cause a person to fold in their request for a prenup which to me is a
0:22:49 really bad start for a marriage so I’ve had a lot of clients who come in say
0:22:52 look I want to have a prenup I have a lot of confidence in this marriage I
0:22:57 really love this person but I would like to you know have a prenup in place
0:23:01 and I draft a prenup for them and it has reasonable terms and they give it to
0:23:05 their fiance and their fiance says yeah I’m not signing that it’s not happening
0:23:11 and instead of saying okay like then you’re choosing for us to not marry you
0:23:16 know that’s okay but like I love you and I’d love to marry you but this is
0:23:21 something that I need in order to feel comfortable with that they they just go
0:23:25 okay yeah never mind and they walk away from it and and because they’re
0:23:29 intimidated and I think that’s it that’s an awful way to start a marriage like I
0:23:35 think that’s much worse than having a discussion about difficult things like I
0:23:39 don’t think you would think it’s irresponsible you’ve been with with a
0:23:45 woman for five years to say to her let’s say a year ago or let’s say four years
0:23:52 ago to say to her you know we’re gonna get in a fight sometime that’s gonna
0:23:55 happen like we’re gonna disagree about something it’ll probably be my fault I’ll
0:23:59 probably say something stupid I do that sometimes so when we get in a fight
0:24:03 someday which again I hope we don’t I’ll do everything I can and not ever get an
0:24:07 argument with you but at some point some’s gonna you’re gonna say some it’s
0:24:10 gonna hurt my feelings I’m gonna take it the wrong way I’ll say something you’ll
0:24:13 take it the wrong way or maybe I’m just an idiot sometimes I’ll be in a bad
0:24:15 mood and I’ll say something or I’ll have too many drinks and I’ll say something
0:24:22 to upset you when that happens how do you how do you like to fight like what’s
0:24:27 best do you need a minute like do you need a minute to calm down do you need
0:24:31 to like sleep on it or do you need to like we got to fix this right now I
0:24:34 can’t go to bed angry like I won’t be able to sleep I won’t be able to function
0:24:38 like like do we have to address it right then and there because you know the best
0:24:43 time to talk about how we’re gonna argue when we’re not arguing you know the
0:24:48 worst time to learn how to fight in the middle of a fight that’s the worst time
0:24:53 to learn how to fight so I like a prenup I think a prenup can be a very
0:24:59 romantic thing because it’s basically saying look I love you you love me we
0:25:02 want this thing to work or else we wouldn’t be signing up for it but in the
0:25:07 event it breaks down you have a right to know what you’re entitled to I have a
0:25:10 right to know what I’m entitled to we both have an interest in making sure
0:25:14 that we both have the things we need so that neither of us feels like we’re
0:25:18 crawling out of this relationship instead of walking out of it like if I
0:25:24 lose you I’m gonna have a lot more to be sad about than my stuff but boy let me
0:25:28 tell you not knowing where I’m gonna live or how I’m gonna pay my bills that’s
0:25:32 gonna add a layer of pain and complexity to what is undoubtedly gonna be a
0:25:36 really hard situation so let’s take that off of each other let’s let’s know
0:25:41 that because I don’t ever want the person who lays their head on the pillow
0:25:46 next to me to be there because they don’t want to get divorced I would rather
0:25:50 that it be that they like having me there next to them that their life is
0:25:55 better because I’m there that they feel like I bring value to their life and
0:26:00 they bring value to mine not well I don’t want to go through all that in that
0:26:03 case of that person you referenced there where they came to you for a prenup
0:26:06 their partner gave them an ultimatum and said listen no I’m not signing
0:26:11 that how do you kind of draw the line between being a lawyer versus like a
0:26:17 therapist or an advisor a sort of like a relationship advisor yeah I mean I have
0:26:22 to tell you it’s a very seamless I don’t I don’t think it’s easy to
0:26:26 distinguish between we’re attorneys and counselors at law my I have an
0:26:31 undergraduate degree in psychology and I think I use it as much as I use my law
0:26:37 degree because this is so personal that it’s very hard to not give human advice
0:26:43 while I’m giving legal advice and I’m dealing in the clay of you know human
0:26:47 emotion and human human connection and human frailty and human emotional
0:26:52 complexity I thought pre-nups were illegal I thought they were like people
0:26:56 went and got them but they when it comes to enforcement enforcement they don’t
0:26:59 hold up you know it could be true in the UK but certainly not in the USA that’s
0:27:03 they are they are enforceable they are binding sometimes they’re crazy how
0:27:08 enforceable they are I really like is because the nature of a prenup is as
0:27:12 long as it was not what’s called unconscionable unconscionable is a
0:27:20 contract that is so unfair that no fair dealing person would offer it and no
0:27:26 sane person would accept it so that’s what unconscionability is so you have
0:27:33 to be a contract is to be unconscionable for it to be set aside okay now I
0:27:40 have seen some prenups that were in their interpretation unconscionable
0:27:46 meaning you know at the time they entered into it he had nothing and she had
0:27:51 nothing and now they’re getting divorced and under the terms of this he’s going
0:27:55 to walk out with a hundred million dollars and she’s going to walk out with
0:28:00 almost nothing but as long as it was not unconscionable at the time it was
0:28:07 made if it’s unconscionable in its performance it’s still binding so I
0:28:15 have seen the outcome of prenups sometimes be shockingly unfair but you
0:28:18 have a right to contract as long as it wasn’t fraud as long as it wasn’t
0:28:22 duress or undue influence or if someone was under the you know influence of
0:28:26 drugs or alcohol when they signed off on it it’s a binding contract because we
0:28:31 believe in in in human autonomy and agency and the right to make decisions
0:28:35 about your life and your future so is that exactly example really and is that
0:28:39 the the most shocking when you’ve seen you know the most shocking prenup I’ve
0:28:47 ever seen which was enforceable had a provision that said that for every ten
0:28:52 pounds the wife gained in the marriage she would lose ten thousand dollars a
0:28:58 month in alimony ten pounds of weight yes yes so so it was a very wealthy man
0:29:02 who was wearing marrying a very attractive woman but he was very
0:29:06 concerned that she was going to become less attractive and he was going to
0:29:13 become more wealthy so his solution to this was in the prenuptial agreement he
0:29:16 wanted a clause that said she would get if they divorced she was gonna get like
0:29:24 seventy thousand dollars a month for alimony but for every ten pounds she
0:29:29 gained from the date of marriage she would forfeit ten thousand a month worth
0:29:34 of alimony and it was designed to sort of create an incentive that she would
0:29:41 remain thin and that was enforceable meaning they tried to challenge and set
0:29:47 aside that provision and the court said this is a disgusting provision I don’t
0:29:52 know why you married this person but it’s enforceable it’s a contract the two
0:29:55 of you signed it and you had a right to sign it and you agreed to these rules
0:29:58 and they may be ridiculous rules but you agreed to them and you have a right to
0:30:04 do that do you think that was love again I think it’s a kind of love I think it’s
0:30:08 a form of love I is it a form of love I’d be interested in no I think it’s very
0:30:13 shallow in some ways there’s something very honest about it I mean you can’t
0:30:18 argue with the fact that there’s something very upfront about it he was
0:30:22 making very clear and putting in writing here’s the value you bring to this
0:30:29 relationship you know I consider your physical appearance vitally important to
0:30:34 this relationship by the way don’t skip the other side of that equation yeah she
0:30:39 was gonna get seventy thousand dollars a month that’s very impressive number so
0:30:45 you know I think she she also understood there was a value to be attached to him
0:30:52 as well you know and it’s so it’s is it something I would be interested in on
0:30:57 either side of that equation no but do I have a right to say to someone that’s
0:31:01 not love I don’t think I have a right to say that to someone I think that if this
0:31:06 is an economy the two of you have agreed on that you know as a lawyer see my my
0:31:10 job as a lawyer is not to look like I don’t look at it that way but I look at
0:31:17 the engineering of it so like if I’m representing her in that transaction all
0:31:21 I could think is okay so we’re gonna want her baseline weight to be as high as
0:31:26 possible so I’m gonna want her to have pennies in her pockets after at the day
0:31:29 we signed the prenup because you’d have to establish a baseline right because if
0:31:33 you say gaining 10 pounds you’d have to establish a baseline weight on the date
0:31:36 of the marriage so she was weighed on the day of the marriage well in or about
0:31:39 the date of the marriage the parties acknowledge that on honor about the date
0:31:43 of marriage she weighed approximately x pounds so if I’m her I want that to be as
0:31:47 high as possible so I’m gonna be putting pennies in my pockets and eating as many
0:31:51 cheeseburgers as I can before the weigh-in now we’re getting divorced I’m
0:31:56 gonna be like a wrestler I’m gonna be in the sauna I’m gonna be sweating as much
0:32:00 as I can I’m gonna take diuretics I’m gonna eat nothing but like grilled
0:32:03 vegetables for a week or two you know and I’m gonna I’m gonna take off every
0:32:08 ounce of clothing I can because I want to minimize my weight this is why this
0:32:11 is why lawyers don’t get invited to parties because that’s how we analyze
0:32:15 problems like I didn’t hear that and go what is the nature of their coupling I
0:32:19 looked at it and I went oh I could play with that I could work I get it I could
0:32:22 do whoever I’m representing in that transaction I could figure out a way to
0:32:27 you know kind of make that work you become a coach kind of is I mean it it
0:32:33 turns into an engineering question as opposed to a human question I heard
0:32:37 about this thing when I was reading your book of these and also watching some of
0:32:39 your stuff online that I didn’t know existed which was fidelity contracts
0:32:44 fidelity clauses yeah yeah yeah so it’s something people include in pre-nuptial
0:32:48 agreements and also sometimes in what’s called a post-nuptial agreement so a
0:32:51 post-nuptial agreement you know nuptial meaning marriage pre meaning before
0:32:56 marriage post meaning after marriage so if you didn’t get a prenup but your
0:33:01 marriage for whatever reason becomes fragile maybe someone learns of an
0:33:05 affair or maybe you’re starting to have difficulties with each other but you
0:33:10 don’t want to divorce but you’d like there to be some clarity as to if we
0:33:15 divorce what will the rules be you can do something called a post-nuptial
0:33:19 agreement okay and that would in the event you divorce make the divorce a
0:33:23 little less acrimonious because you’ve resolved certain issues it’s basically
0:33:28 like the prenup you should have had okay so I have seen people in both pre-nuptes
0:33:32 and in post-nuptes put in what’s called fidelity clauses which essentially are a
0:33:38 clause that say that if you cheat on your spouse here’s what the penalty will be
0:33:43 and it could be a financial penalty it could have you know a support related
0:33:47 context it could have be a percentage of certain ownership rights you know things
0:33:51 that you have are they a good idea from what you’ve seen are they useful in I
0:33:54 think they’re a terrible idea yeah from a legal standpoint they’re a terrible
0:34:00 idea but for a couple of reasons one defining cheating is very tricky you
0:34:06 know if you’re if we’re gonna define cheating as a specific form of sexual
0:34:12 contact I guess that’s a pretty clear definition but but even in fidelity it’s
0:34:17 not all created equal I mean I think we could all agree that if you if your
0:34:26 partner when they were drunk on vacation or at a party you know had some kind of
0:34:30 fleeting sexual contact with another person and then woke up the next day and
0:34:34 went oh my god what did I do I regret this so much but they’re never gonna see
0:34:38 this person again it was just a stupid dalliance it happened you know again
0:34:42 not excusing that behavior but that’s different than if you were having an
0:34:47 ongoing affair with another person or I think there are probably some people if
0:34:53 they were being honest if they said would you rather that your spouse on a
0:35:00 drunken night out kissed somebody or was texting another person five times a
0:35:04 day for six weeks and sharing the most intimate thoughts you know and what we
0:35:09 call an emotional affair well I mean I think we can agree that like something
0:35:14 about an emotional affair like someone becoming your confidant there I once
0:35:17 heard someone say and I in my professional life I found it to be true
0:35:24 that when men find out that a woman who they’re with has had an affair their
0:35:28 first question is did you sleep with him when women find out a man had an
0:35:33 affair their first question is are you in love with her and I think that tells
0:35:37 you a lot about men and women’s relationships because there’s a sense
0:35:44 of okay what what was this was the sex or was this like I’m I don’t love you
0:35:47 anymore I don’t want you in my life anymore because those are two really
0:35:53 different things and so a fidelity clause is a one-size-fits-all concept that
0:35:58 just says okay we’re gonna define cheating and then there’s gonna be a
0:36:04 penalty for you doing it now again in what I’ve observed in life cheating is
0:36:08 its own penalty cheating turns your life at best cheating turns your life
0:36:14 into like an unbelievably complicated like jumping from one foot to another
0:36:20 lying to everyone involved like rarely does anybody get out of infidelity
0:36:25 without hurting themselves and a bunch of other people like whether it’s not
0:36:29 only their partner but even the person who they cheated with or that person’s
0:36:34 partner like there’s so there’s so much pain to go around when cheating happens
0:36:40 and so to say and there’s gonna be an economic penalty you know it’s a bit
0:36:47 like you know using drugs is illegal in a lot of places but I can’t imagine that
0:36:50 there’s a heroin addict who goes you know I’m gonna shoot up oh wait it’s
0:36:55 illegal I don’t want to get in trouble yeah that’s not how it works so you’re
0:36:59 adding insult to injury you know this person they’re already in a very
0:37:03 difficult position I don’t think making it illegal is gonna do much except
0:37:08 create an underground economy same kind of thing I think that infidelity there
0:37:15 should be sufficient incentives in a relationship to not cheat and there there
0:37:21 are already by definition so many consequences for cheating that adding
0:37:25 to that an economic penalty I don’t know that a person’s gonna be about to
0:37:30 cheat and go this could cost me like 20 more grand now I gotta do it are you
0:37:34 seeing more and more people getting those prenups yeah prenups are I have to
0:37:38 tell you there’s a generational shift happening I see a lot of people in
0:37:45 there I’ve been doing this job for 25 years and I will tell you the people
0:37:50 currently in their 20s and early 30s like the prime demographic for marriage
0:37:56 mid mid 20s to mid 30s are getting prenups at a rate that I would say is
0:38:02 probably 5x what it was 10 years ago 15 years ago certainly 25 years ago from
0:38:08 when I started I think there’s a more pragmatic view of relationships I think
0:38:14 that there’s there’s a lot more open discussion I mean although there is a
0:38:18 tremendous increase in the amount of like performative look how happy we are
0:38:23 you know me well it’s like you know white teeth and rotting gums you know like
0:38:26 we’re we’re doing the performative social media look at our great hashtag
0:38:30 blessed and meanwhile our life is you know is our relationship is is rotting
0:38:35 from the inside and we see a lot of that like I say when I see people in my
0:38:41 office who publicly are having the greatest relationships ever like if you
0:38:46 believe their social media they are so madly in love and it shocks me because I
0:38:50 think about all the people that are dissatisfied in their perfectly
0:38:55 acceptable relationship because it’s not as amazing as that relationship I mean
0:39:00 well that relationship is nowhere near that amazing as they’d have you believe
0:39:04 it and and we’ve got the audacity now as a culture that people without any
0:39:08 apology you know do the we’re perfectly happy these hateful rumors that we’re
0:39:12 unhappy or terrible and then we’ve decided the amicably hard way is we
0:39:15 were asked you to respect our privacy during this difficult time and you’re
0:39:19 like okay but wait a minute like a month ago when there was rumors that the two
0:39:22 of you were splitting up you yelled at all of us for saying it’s so mean that
0:39:25 we’re speculating and now you’re like yes we’ve split up so we were right so
0:39:29 we were making us feel awful about ourselves and how madly in love you
0:39:33 were with each other but now you know we were basing our lives like we’re
0:39:38 basing our our level of satisfaction on watching your greatest hits while we live
0:39:42 our gag reel do you think there’s something in the idea that those that
0:39:46 endeavor to convince the world that they’re happy in their relationships are
0:39:52 often not as happy 100% I’ll actually extrapolate that further my father’s
0:39:55 a southerner so he has a lot of southern folksy things he says and one of them
0:40:00 was empty barrels make the most noise and he used to say that to me when I was
0:40:03 a kid all the time whenever somebody had something fancy that they owned because
0:40:06 I grew up without a lot of money and if someone would drive a beautiful car and
0:40:10 it’s a car so cool he’d say you know empty barrels make the most noise that
0:40:15 that the people that that have true joy in their relationship really don’t feel
0:40:19 like they have to advertise it people who ever like I I represent some of the
0:40:25 wealthiest people in the world like New York is the epicenter of commerce and
0:40:30 finance for the United States and to some degree for the world you know in the
0:40:35 UAE you’re more likely to find a gold plated Ferrari but in New York like
0:40:39 finance Wall Street like it is it is the home of it so I represent I have
0:40:43 a client who’s worth eight billion dollars you would walk past him on the
0:40:46 street you would never know he has very much money at all he drives a Jeep
0:40:51 Grand Cherokee which is like a very mid-range car he wears like you know
0:40:56 totally non-descript clothing like he just looks like a typical middle-aged
0:40:59 dude and you would not look at him and go like he gets his haircut at like
0:41:05 supercuts for 25 bucks like he’s not posh in the things that he owns and does
0:41:10 and he’s he could buy you know he his income annually is like the gross
0:41:14 domestic product of a few companies of a few countries and you know
0:41:21 he’s not but in the yet I have clients who appear to be incredibly wealthy and
0:41:25 as a divorce lawyer I get to see the absolutely unfiltered version of
0:41:30 people’s finances and I can tell you they are deeply in debt many of them you
0:41:33 know this is particularly true of celebrities you know celebrities have
0:41:38 to live these big performative lives because if they’re they don’t you know
0:41:43 drive a posh car and they don’t wear the the latest designer labels there’s the
0:41:46 sense of who are they not doing well and especially with sort of influencer
0:41:50 culture you know there’s just so much like you know everything everyone’s
0:41:55 wearing and doing has to be the best of the best and the most expensive I find
0:42:00 very often these are the more people have to flaunt their wealth the less wealth
0:42:05 they probably have like you know money talks like wealth whispers and it’s
0:42:08 very comfortable just whispering it doesn’t feel like it has to prove to
0:42:12 the world in fact it it would rather that everyone not know who it was there
0:42:21 was a time where fame was an unfortunate side effect of talent so you were
0:42:24 really good at something so then everybody heard about who you were and
0:42:27 all of a sudden everybody knew who you were and that was unfortunate because
0:42:30 you couldn’t go out to eat anymore you couldn’t just live your life anymore
0:42:34 now of course there were times where it probably felt really nice you know it
0:42:36 feels good listen I I walked down the street in New York City sometimes people
0:42:41 today guys said to me hey man love your stuff thanks that’s great feels nice
0:42:44 definitely nice there’s times where doesn’t there’s times where I’m on my
0:42:47 phone I’m in the middle of talking to a client and somebody’s standing there
0:42:50 next to me waiting to talk to me and I know they’re waiting to say something so
0:42:53 lovely but there’s a part of me it’s like okay man I gotta like do what I’m
0:42:59 doing right now I’m doing the thing you know and now being famous is the goal
0:43:06 for so many people so I think there is definitely when people say look at a
0:43:11 happy wearer look at how happy we are you know it’s like please tell me how
0:43:14 happy we are because if you don’t tell me how happy we are I’m gonna have to
0:43:19 look at this relationship and I’m gonna see how unhappy we are you know when
0:43:23 someone wants to be famous it’s like tell me I have value please tell me I have
0:43:29 value oh god please tell me I have value because you know the the reason I was
0:43:35 never really interested in being famous is that the praise of strangers never
0:43:40 really felt that important to me like if the people in my life think I have
0:43:43 something interesting to say and care about me and like me that’s really
0:43:48 meaningful to me and I’m touched for anyone who’s ever appreciated my work
0:43:53 or enjoyed it but I never said like oh I really want to get out there and you know
0:43:58 I have people know who I am and tell me I’m smart because I know I’m smart like
0:44:02 it’s okay like you know my beliefs don’t require you to believe them and and so I
0:44:08 think this performative culture when it comes to relationships is an
0:44:14 unfortunate thing because again we’re comparing ourselves we can’t help as a
0:44:19 species but compare ourselves to the things we see around us but you must see
0:44:22 so much of that in your office where someone comes in and they say my
0:44:26 marriage isn’t working and they use the these are comparative measure they say
0:44:31 well you know Jenny and they fight they’re like this and we’re not so but
0:44:35 how much sex are they having how much like how much sex is enough sex like
0:44:39 honestly like we don’t talk about these things we don’t we don’t there’s so much
0:44:45 of our day-to-day life that we’re constantly feeling like we’re not doing
0:44:52 well based on nothing like I don’t think I’m doing that well compared to what I’m
0:44:56 not good-looking enough compared to what a photoshopped image of a person on
0:45:00 steroids yeah you’re right you don’t look like a photoshopped person on
0:45:05 steroids you’re not supposed to like women are going into doctors office is
0:45:09 saying make me look like this and showing the doctors something that’s been
0:45:15 photoshopped that person doesn’t look like that like how would you know you’re
0:45:19 not having enough sex how much sex are people having is that frequent one sex
0:45:23 yeah for sex is huge sex is huge it’s well I mean first of all it better be
0:45:28 because what’s the difference between a spouse and a roommate otherwise like it
0:45:31 was just like oh we’re gonna be partners in a home together like you don’t have to
0:45:35 marry each other to do that you can just live together and be I mean sex is the
0:45:39 glue sex is the thing that brings you together sex is what makes a romantic
0:45:45 relationship a romantic relationship and again it can be any number of varieties
0:45:50 of sex it can be preferences of sex it can be anything but we don’t talk about
0:45:54 we talk about all kinds of things in polite society now if you can call it
0:45:58 that I mean we talked more than we ever did about you know transgender issues and
0:46:02 LGBTQ+ issues and I think that’s progress I think it’s great that people can
0:46:07 talk about anything we can talk about kink we can talk about like I’m a big
0:46:10 fan of people being able to speak openly about the things that make them happy
0:46:14 and make them feel good and you know not having to feel ashamed about certain
0:46:21 things but baseline like how how well we’re not having enough sex okay compared
0:46:25 to what the sex we used to have as a couple that makes sense that makes
0:46:31 sense to me like if we set a baseline and say we used to have sex every day we
0:46:35 first started dating we had sex four times a day okay but then the you know
0:46:40 luster wears off you know now we we used to have sex once a day now once a week
0:46:45 is that okay is that natural is that part of the progression of a
0:46:49 relationship or is that a sign that one or both of us are feeling dissatisfied
0:46:54 with each other can we talk about that and not have it be a fight can we talk
0:46:57 about that and not hear it as a as a something that we have to react
0:47:00 defensively to and that’s that’s the stuff I tried to talk about in my book
0:47:04 is that people come in and they go well you know we’re unhappy with a child was
0:47:07 cheating on her I was cheating on her because she wasn’t sleeping with me well
0:47:10 I wasn’t sleeping with him because he’s never nice to me well I’m not nice to her
0:47:14 because every time I talk to her all she doesn’t put me down okay and you sit here
0:47:18 going okay so you guys are just been in this death spiral you know just going
0:47:24 down and down and down you started at I love you more than eight billion other
0:47:30 people in the world but somehow you just started to do this death spiral and now
0:47:35 you’re right you won you guys you won you’re both right you don’t have to sleep
0:47:39 with him you don’t have to be nice to her you don’t have to say a kind word you
0:47:42 don’t have to do any that you don’t have to be married great news you don’t have
0:47:48 to be married but you decided to be married you signed up to be married so
0:47:53 at some point this made sense to you you liked each other that much and you were
0:47:58 both pointing in the same direction and at some point you lost the plot so my
0:48:06 feeling is wouldn’t it be better before you completely lose the plot to just do
0:48:12 the preventative maintenance preventive maintenance talk about we’re are we
0:48:16 still as connected as we were are we still as excited as we were are we
0:48:21 still you know are we still attracted to each other are we still enjoying each
0:48:24 other physically mentally like emotionally we don’t want to do that
0:48:28 there cuz it’s uncomfortable right okay lots of things are uncomfortable that
0:48:32 are so good for you you know exercise is uncomfortable until you get in a rhythm
0:48:37 of it and it feels really good you know so how would you know if the first time
0:48:40 you went to the gym and you worked out and you went home and you were like oh
0:48:44 my god I’m so sore I’m never working out again then you will never get into an
0:48:49 exercise routine you have to get through that part where everything’s really sore
0:48:53 and you’re still sometimes gonna be sore you over did it you know but you start
0:48:57 to realize yeah but it’s also bringing tremendous value to my life you know and
0:49:03 so why not like why not trade what you want now which is comfort in the moment
0:49:09 for what you want most which is real connection real intimacy like real joy
0:49:16 and that can be and again we want it 86% of people who get divorced wouldn’t
0:49:19 get remarried within five years if we didn’t want it if we didn’t believe it
0:49:25 was possible and if you’ve ever met someone who is happily married over a
0:49:31 long period of time you won the lottery like they’re so their lives are just so
0:49:36 much better because they just go I had this partner because this is terrifying
0:49:42 like life is terrifying and it’s brutal and it and it and it ends it
0:49:47 invariably ends we’re all gonna die everyone we love is gonna die like we’re
0:49:53 playing a game you can’t win to the utmost and to me to have a partner in
0:49:57 that someone who you can hold their hand and go you know when you’re scared
0:50:01 I’ll be here for you and when I’m scared you’ll be here for me and you’ll help me
0:50:06 see my blind spots and I’ll help you see yours and let’s just do this thing will
0:50:11 never be alone like what a gorgeous thought that is what a beautiful thought
0:50:16 that is what a worthy pursuit that is but yeah you got to be uncomfortable once
0:50:19 in a while you got to tell it each other something other than what the other
0:50:26 person wants to hear once in a while but to me like if the payoff is real
0:50:32 connection keeping real intimacy keeping your partner happy and satisfied with
0:50:36 you so that the thought of splitting up or running off with somebody else is
0:50:40 just a fleeting thought that maybe occasionally jumps into their head like
0:50:47 that seems such a worthwhile investment to me preventative maintenance I want to
0:50:49 just drill down a little bit into what that actually looks like because there’ll
0:50:52 be a lot of people right now including myself who heard you use this
0:50:56 temporary defensive maintenance and immediately I thought Jesus Christ I
0:50:59 probably should do that a little bit more sure what do you mean by preventative
0:51:02 maintenance it can be lots of things I think it can be I try to give a lot of
0:51:08 examples but I I think some of the simplest examples are very small
0:51:14 gestures of courtesy I mean think about when you first started dating all the
0:51:19 little things that made the back of your neck tingle about this person like they
0:51:23 would say the littlest thing about you and it made you so happy because they
0:51:28 were noticing you you know and they they they saw beautiful things in you and
0:51:32 that made you see and feel those things in yourself you know that that’s a
0:51:38 beauty amazing thing we can do for each other you know and and so I mean at its
0:51:44 core level like the the the example I’ve given to a lot of my male friends and
0:51:47 several of them have done it and I’ve got a lot of really good feedback on it is
0:51:51 leave leave a note just leave a note in the morning when you leave for work or
0:51:55 wherever it is you’re going just leave a note you know so great hanging out with
0:51:59 you last night I’m with the prettiest girl in the whole world can’t wait to
0:52:04 see you again that’s it what does that take ten seconds ten seconds and and
0:52:09 every guy I meet who I say that to they go yeah the first time I did it she was
0:52:12 like what is going on why did you leave me that note what are you what what what
0:52:17 it what’s going on but then after a little while like if this is just
0:52:20 something you do that you go yeah I just you know I want to make a practice of
0:52:24 like how I want to tell you this stuff I forget to tell you sometimes you know
0:52:28 like what does that take like what does it take for your partner to say to you
0:52:33 you’re so smart like I just love being around you like you’re so handsome I’m
0:52:38 so lucky like what does that take that’s nothing doesn’t cost anything takes
0:52:43 nothing to do that why don’t we do it I don’t know I don’t know I think we just
0:52:48 whoever discovered water it wasn’t a fish like I think you’re just in it and
0:52:52 you just stop seeing it and that person’s just there and again I don’t
0:52:56 know and I also think culture is antagonistic to it because the example I
0:53:00 give to people because people love their dogs and I love my dogs but like dogs
0:53:06 are a great way to look at this rationally because I’ve got a 13 year
0:53:11 old dog I got him when he was a puppy now he’s 13 and like me he slowed down a
0:53:17 lot his back hurts he’s not quite the puppy he used to be I have never once
0:53:24 looked at that dog and gone I gotta get a puppy this old dog you didn’t look as
0:53:27 cute as he used to and like oh my god have you seen our cute puppies are like I
0:53:32 would never it’s my dog man I fall more in love with that dog every single day
0:53:35 you know and yeah sure puppies are cute and they’re great and I’ll pet him but
0:53:40 that’s my dog man I wouldn’t trade all the puppies in the world for that dog
0:53:47 your partner your romantic partner like what when did it become acceptable as
0:53:55 it as it is in in culture to just just piss all over your partner like every
0:53:59 guy it’s like the I’m married to the most loathsome harpy ever to cast rate a
0:54:04 man like this one the old ball and chain and women it’s like the guy is like oh
0:54:08 this idiot like this just lovable idiot you know he doesn’t know he doesn’t know
0:54:13 anything he’s so stupid men are so stupid like when did that what do you
0:54:18 think’s gonna come from that other than this disdain that we can then have for
0:54:23 each other and this sort of disrespect as opposed to being like so into each other
0:54:27 which is what you were when you were strangers you know when you didn’t know
0:54:32 each other you know every all the same women sitting around in a group of
0:54:36 women talking about how much their husbands suck when their female friend
0:54:39 goes oh my god I’m seeing this guy I just started seeing what did you oh my
0:54:47 god he sounds so great all this is all this is is your guy five years ago but
0:54:54 somehow now you’re really gonna buy the delusion that if she it all works out
0:54:57 with him and they get married and they do their little fairy tale thing and the
0:55:00 cake and the dress and the whole thing that in five years she’s still gonna be
0:55:07 like he’s so great no it’s gonna be easy again just like the rest of you so we
0:55:14 need to start as a culture you know perhaps changing the way cuz I think
0:55:17 there is something about that where we’re you know we’re trying to like not
0:55:20 make people self-conscious so we just like take the piss out of our partner all
0:55:24 the time in front of you know people or around other people and I don’t find that
0:55:28 charming do you think that when we get to the lovable idiot oh my god happy
0:55:32 wife happy like all that stuff which is part of how happy wife whoever said that
0:55:36 should just be beaten to death happy wife happy life like if I hear one more
0:55:39 person give that advice to somebody I have to tell you that is just the most
0:55:44 ridiculous what does it even mean happy wife happy life if she’s happy then I’m
0:55:54 happy because I think it’s used by men who believe that their wife is always
0:55:59 unhappy so if she’s not shouting at me and I could just sit here and watch the
0:56:10 football you know man I can’t wait what for some day for my kids to just sit
0:56:15 there while the person in the other room is just mildly dissatisfied with them
0:56:20 and they can just sit and watch you know the football get really that’s that’s
0:56:23 what we’re aspiring to that’s what you hope for like I gotta take I just don’t
0:56:29 think our goals are really misaligned you know my greatest accomplishment in
0:56:33 life is my children really that’s your greatest accomplishment in life is your
0:56:36 children what let me ask you this what will your children’s greatest
0:56:40 accomplishment in life be having children because guess what this is the
0:56:45 ideology of a cancer cell growth for the sake of growth for the sake of growth
0:56:48 for the sake of growth reproduction for the sake of reproduction I don’t think
0:56:53 that’s the highest noblest goal I think there should be something in there
0:56:59 about quality of life about making the world or the experience of others better
0:57:05 like again it’s not for me to define but but I certainly I don’t intelligence is
0:57:10 hard to define but I can spot stupid a mile away and I have to tell you a good
0:57:15 relationship you know it’s kind of hard to quantify but man I know what sucks I
0:57:20 know a bad relationship when I see one and we all know them so what’s more
0:57:26 uncomfortable that relationship where you know at least she’s not yelling at me
0:57:29 and she’s only mildly dissatisfied and I can just be left alone for an hour and
0:57:34 watch the football or having to have an uncomfortable conversation again while
0:57:39 you’re still like each other but there’s a little slippage there’s a little
0:57:42 something going in the other direction and I don’t want it to go too far I
0:57:47 mean put it into the physical context it is a whole lot easier to maintain a
0:57:51 healthy weight than to gain a hundred pounds and then try to figure out how
0:57:55 to lose it that’s much much harder and it’s much worse for you and the chances
0:58:00 of you actually accomplishing it are way lower whereas maintaining a healthy
0:58:06 way that’s not an unrealistic thing to be able to do is a I sat here with a one
0:58:11 psychologist who I’m sure you’ll know very famous individual called Jordan
0:58:15 Peterson and he said to me he said he was shouting when he said it he said
0:58:19 listen here’s you’re gonna have to sit down for 90 minutes a week and you’re
0:58:23 gonna have to listen to her and she’s gonna tell you everything that’s wrong
0:58:26 and he goes if you don’t listen to her for 90 minutes a week you’ll be
0:58:29 listening to her in divorce court and he was it was almost shouting when he says
0:58:33 it the analogy he’s making the what he’s saying is what you’re saying yeah is
0:58:39 you’re gonna I you know George I find Jordan Peterson very entertaining I’ve
0:58:43 been a fan of his work a long time and I loved actually your conversation with
0:58:48 him what I will say is I think that he’s sort of hyperbolic in his
0:58:52 presentation sometimes which I enjoy but I think we totally agree on this I
0:58:56 think that that what he’s saying more than anything is that you can invest
0:59:03 now in candor and in listening to this other person in a non-defensive manner
0:59:08 and so there’s a chapter in my book called hits and now where I talk about
0:59:13 exactly that where I say you need to be able to have these conversations but
0:59:19 have them in a way that you’re hearing it and you’re saying it you’re agreeing
0:59:24 it’s a contract and that we know we love each other so we’re gonna try to say it
0:59:27 with love we’re gonna try to hear it with love because I’m only saying it
0:59:31 because that this is important to me this relationship and I want it to be
0:59:35 good for you and for me so I’m gonna go out on the limb here I’m gonna take this
0:59:39 risk because you’re worth it you are worth it for me to take this risk it’s
0:59:44 scary I’m not excited about having to say it but you know what like I care
0:59:47 enough and when you say things to me I’m gonna hear it I’m gonna hear it as you
0:59:50 saying I care so much about this relationship I’m gonna say this harder
0:59:54 thing to say and it might be little it might be you know you said the other
0:59:57 night you were talking about my sister and you made that little joke about her
1:00:00 and it felt like you were like kind of making fun of my sister and I thought
1:00:03 you like my sister and it’s really important to me that you like my sister
1:00:07 because I really like my sister so maybe I misunderstood you and if I did okay
1:00:12 great let me know that hit send now just hit send now the reason I said hit send
1:00:18 now is when you you were like writing email where you said something important
1:00:22 and you like write it rewrite it and you craft it and you’re like about to hit
1:00:27 send and you’re like oh boy and then you hit it and you’re like well it’s there
1:00:32 now and I send it now like it’s done I hit send now that’s where I got the term
1:00:36 hit send now because but I but I said like make it a technique like say to
1:00:42 your partner I want to do this I want you to do it and I want to do it but I
1:00:46 want to make it clear like make the subject heading of the email hitting
1:00:53 send now okay so they know so they know this is not an attack this is something
1:00:57 I want to get off my chest you don’t have to respond right away you don’t have
1:01:01 to respond in writing if you don’t want to but I just want to put this out there
1:01:05 because I want you to digest it and the key to this is I read in your book is
1:01:11 to do it quickly yep and do it honestly yep yep and and and to again to make a
1:01:17 point of calling this out as a technique when you’re in a good place so when
1:01:19 you’re already in a good place there’s an abundance of goodwill between us we’re
1:01:24 in a good spot that’s a good time to say hey look this is good man and this is
1:01:28 important so let’s keep it good and the way we’re gonna do that is if I say to
1:01:32 you you know we used to I’m making an example we used to have sex five times
1:01:38 a week and now I feel like it’s like you know once a week maybe and I think
1:01:41 you’re so attractive I love I love it like I don’t feel any less attracted to
1:01:44 you and I know you know we’ve been busy and things like that but like I don’t
1:01:48 want to see that slip I want you to be the person that fills all my desires and
1:01:51 all my fantasies I don’t want to look at porn I don’t want to think about other
1:01:55 things I want to really be focused on you is there something I’m doing that’s
1:02:00 causing you to be less interested in me is there something I could do that would
1:02:03 spark things better is there something going on that I need to know in terms of
1:02:08 how you feel about me yeah but what if it’s personal and what if it’s offensive
1:02:12 what if it’s isn’t it better to know if it’s personal and it’s offensive isn’t
1:02:16 it better to know like because I had to tell you I’ll come up with a thousand
1:02:19 different reasons it might be and only one of them might be accurate and the
1:02:24 other 999 might be complete garbage in my mind like I might be convinced that
1:02:27 it’s because you’re cheating I might be convinced that I’m not attractive to you
1:02:30 all of a sudden because you know my hair got gray or I got a bad haircut or
1:02:34 something stupid what if it’s that then wouldn’t you rather know wouldn’t you
1:02:39 rather know would you and find some other and listen I’m not saying by the
1:02:43 way everything isn’t everything right like there are things in relationships
1:02:47 that you might just say yeah I don’t know that’s changed like I used to be
1:02:50 really into that no I’m not anymore you know or that used to mean a lot to me and
1:02:55 now it doesn’t and that gives your partner a chance to say well look it’s
1:03:00 still really important to me so can we find some common ground how frequent
1:03:05 is sex the issue in divorce as they’re not I’m not talking about affairs I’m
1:03:12 saying sexlessness yeah that’s a great question so is it increasing yeah so
1:03:16 here’s what I’ll say there there’s reverse engineering the demise of a
1:03:20 marriage is a very difficult thing for anybody to do because the two people in
1:03:23 the relationship aren’t even really fully aware of what’s going on in
1:03:29 themselves much less each other and then an outside observer asking them so
1:03:34 like you can do all the studies you want of people’s self-reported satisfaction
1:03:38 or lack of satisfaction in a relationship or what caused them to become
1:03:42 dissatisfied that is so loaded up with people’s delusion and people’s
1:03:46 projection and all these other things that I only you quantified so everything
1:03:51 I’m saying I’m saying as a divorce lawyer who I think is empathetic and who I
1:03:57 think for a living puts myself in other people’s mind to try to understand what
1:04:00 they’re doing and why they did what they did and come up with the best and
1:04:05 worst possible excuses for it and then to tell that story right like I’m a full
1:04:10 contact storyteller that’s my job so and my job if you’re really honest is to
1:04:14 manipulate people’s emotional state my job is to make a judge feel good about
1:04:18 my client bad about the other side make the other side feel scared make my
1:04:21 client feel safe that’s my jobs to manipulate everybody’s emotional state
1:04:25 through the power of storytelling that’s what being a divorce lawyer is it
1:04:30 sounds sexier when I say it that way but that is what it is so when we look at
1:04:37 that as the job where does sex fall into that equation it’s it’s everywhere in
1:04:42 that equation because again it is the thing that separates this relationship
1:04:47 from other kinds of relationships sex is a thing that is definitional to a
1:04:51 romantic relationship now again will it always be the same will it always stay
1:04:56 at the same level of importance no but is it a great canary in the coal mine
1:05:01 that you know like something’s off with the sex now that that that that the
1:05:08 tragedy is not far behind yeah like because almost every couple when I talk
1:05:13 to my side of the equation about when did this thing start when did the ship
1:05:18 start to sink there was certainly some change in sex because again sex is
1:05:23 definitional in terms of what distinguishes a romantic relationship
1:05:28 from a platonic relationship because listen guys we can do this however we
1:05:33 want as a society we don’t have to get married we do not have to get married we
1:05:37 just have to we just have to reproduce but we could just decide hey we’re just
1:05:42 gonna reproduce and we’re gonna live in like colonies of platonic you know
1:05:45 relationships and we’ll just have sex for the purposes of breeding at certain
1:05:48 times and then we’ll figure out who gets to raise what kids and that’ll be that
1:05:53 we don’t do that and and it’s not like what we don’t do that because we made a
1:05:58 set of rules societies don’t do that they’ve never really done that like
1:06:03 this there’s somehow this permutation in the human and animal kingdom keeps
1:06:06 coming up where we have pair bonds and we reproduce with the person who’s our
1:06:10 partner and then we sort of work together and you know how much does the tribe how
1:06:13 much does the rest of the world get involved in that how extended is the
1:06:18 family how extended is the tribe that varies right from species to species
1:06:23 from culture to culture from time to time but we this fundamental idea of
1:06:27 like reproduction between you know the male and the female of the species and
1:06:30 there being some then continued interaction and a sharing of responsibilities
1:06:36 towards the rearing of the young it’s pretty common right so what’s the thing
1:06:42 that makes a and b it’s the sex like there’s there’s there’s sex there’s
1:06:46 some romantic or sexual component to that relationship that then leads to
1:06:52 reproduction of some kind so I think when you take that out of the equation or
1:06:56 when there’s a change in that there’s a disruption in the force right there’s a
1:07:02 disruption in the system and then you can trace it back like yeah we and again
1:07:06 sometimes it’s not direct cause in effect like oh we started having less sex
1:07:09 than we stopped being nice to each other sometimes it stopped being nice to
1:07:13 each other so we stopped having as much sex but it’s an element it’s always an
1:07:18 element there you know and then that’s my key piece of advice to everyone in the
1:07:22 book that I try to say over and over and over again if you had to like summarize
1:07:28 it is pay attention just pay attention to what you’re feeling to what your
1:07:34 partner’s feeling and then say it you know I say that all marital problems
1:07:41 stem from two things I don’t know what I want and I don’t know how to express it
1:07:46 and I think if you can figure that out if you can figure out what you want and
1:07:54 figure out how to express it that’s like 99% of the battle when someone gets to
1:07:57 you how often do they go from getting to a divorce lawyer having that
1:08:02 conversation we want to separate to repairing and rebuilding and getting
1:08:07 back to happiness yeah that’s a great question so I as my career has
1:08:14 progressed I am now a guy who you hire when you’re in a really bad situation so
1:08:19 I’m a trial lawyer so now you know you can do things with a scalpel and you can
1:08:24 do them with a chainsaw I’m a chainsaw now like now I’m you hire me because your
1:08:29 situation is bad because you’re more expensive is that no I’m more expensive
1:08:36 because I’m really good in high-conflict situations I’m really tactical I’m
1:08:41 really strategic I think ten moves ahead and I outpace everyone with my work
1:08:46 ethic I wake up at 4 a.m. and I wake up very sharp and I wake and I’m
1:08:50 immediately thinking about clients and cases and I’m dedicated to this work in
1:08:56 an absolutely insane way in a way that is in no way good as a human being it’s
1:08:59 really really I’m a great lawyer I’m questionable as a human being but I’m
1:09:03 really really good as a lawyer because I’m better at this than I’ve ever been
1:09:07 in anything in my life have you ever seen someone get to you and then go back
1:09:11 to perfect that like yeah for many years in my career early in my career the
1:09:16 first decade or more of my career when I handled more sort of regular people’s
1:09:22 divorces you know yeah I would frequently I would frequently try to steer
1:09:25 people if I thought that that was possible I still to this day if I think
1:09:29 it’s possible for people to work something out either an individual
1:09:34 counseling or an individual counseling and then maybe couples counseling I will
1:09:38 steer them in that direction of course who cheats more men or women I think
1:09:43 both men and women cheat with a tremendous amount of frequency I think
1:09:50 that I don’t think that you could really say one does it more than the other I
1:09:59 think that more more men are accused of having ruined the relationship by
1:10:04 cheating than women are who’s more dissatisfied with this the amount of sex
1:10:10 men and women generally men want more and generally want more sex women want
1:10:15 more quality sex men are quantity based in my experience coming to sex and
1:10:21 that’s like men would rather have frequent sex that may not be the highest
1:10:25 possible quality but it like kind of gets the job done I mean it’s the same
1:10:29 reason why pornography is more popular with men than women I think that men are
1:10:31 just like I gotta get the poison out of my system here I gotta be get on with my
1:10:34 day and I’m not gonna be able to think straight until I just get that over with
1:10:41 and so I think that that women it’s it’s a it’s a different I don’t think women
1:10:46 you know have don’t find sex important I hate to make generalizations about
1:10:53 about gender but I if from my seat the number of men that come in and say to me
1:10:56 like yeah like she’s just not sleeping with me well what did she expect like of
1:10:59 course I slept with somebody else like she was like sleep with me once a week
1:11:02 she was sleeping with me once a month I’ve had clients who came in we’re like
1:11:07 yeah we hadn’t had sex in six years six years like first of all why would you
1:11:11 put up with that second of all if you’re this person’s spouse how what the
1:11:15 hell did you think was going on you thought things were okay like yeah we
1:11:18 had sex in six years we just forgot to do that like I get if you didn’t clean
1:11:22 your gutters in six years or you know maybe like I get it if you didn’t
1:11:26 change your oil in a year like it’s bad idea but like I get it I could slip your
1:11:30 mind look oh my god I’m into the dentist in a year but sex you must have
1:11:34 heard a lot of her fair stories oh my god please if you can have like a PhD in
1:11:38 infidelity I would have it yeah I mean it’s because a cheating is a huge
1:11:43 components to divorces so many divorces but the question is always cause or
1:11:49 effect and the danger of putting so much emphasis on cheating is that it’s an
1:11:53 oversimplification so someone comes in and goes we’re getting divorced why
1:11:59 because he’s sleeping with his secretary I get it like yes that’s true that is one
1:12:03 of the variables that has led to your divorce but you you hadn’t slept with
1:12:08 him in three years so I’m not saying that makes the cheating forgivable but
1:12:12 you’re saying you had a really super awesome healthy marriage and then this
1:12:16 nefarious secretary came into the picture and suddenly he was wooed away
1:12:24 no there were conditions that made that very likely to happen right and so let’s
1:12:28 start going back a little further in the cause like the truth is at the bottom of
1:12:34 a bottomless pit so we can try to reverse engineer this and say well he slept
1:12:36 with his secretary because you weren’t sleeping well I wasn’t sleeping with him
1:12:39 because he wasn’t nice to me well I wasn’t nice to him because he was never
1:12:41 paying any attention to me while I wasn’t paying attention to her because
1:12:44 what did I want to pay attention to she’s hasn’t changed at all or she’s
1:12:48 changed so much and she’s nothing like she used to be there and again everyone
1:12:54 you’ll be shocked to hear when they tell the story of their life they’re usually
1:13:01 they rarely come into my office and go listen I’m a piece of garbage you know
1:13:06 but I will tell you when it comes to cheating sometimes they do you must have
1:13:09 had people come in and admit things to you about their current affairs that you
1:13:12 just blow your mind is there a particular example we go that was the most
1:13:19 shocking example that I had heard of someone deceiving the marital commitment
1:13:25 yeah I mean I’ve had people come in and tell me stories that I just think to
1:13:30 myself like how how did you actually like just the engineering of it like I’ve
1:13:34 had people who came in and they had multiple they had two families happening
1:13:39 at once and neither of them knew about the other like that that the mistress
1:13:44 who he started a family with like thought he was divorced and the wife
1:13:48 thought that he was traveling for business and like he would literally have
1:13:52 Christmas with both he would have Thanksgiving with both like he would
1:13:55 and he just found a way to sort of logistically do it and I’ve seen things
1:14:00 like that many times I mean I’ve seen people it’s almost become a cliche that
1:14:05 people who sleep with their their sister-in-law or their brother-in-law
1:14:10 mother-in-law and oh and I haven’t seen mother-in-law yet father-in-law I have
1:14:13 seen father-in-law yeah I have seen father-in-law yeah I saw that saw that
1:14:17 one I there’s a chapter in my book about nannies how people sleep with the nanny
1:14:21 that’s pretty common why do you talk in the book about how wealthy clients like
1:14:25 to sleep with the nanny yeah I don’t know what that’s about I mean I do I have a
1:14:30 theory about it and I think that what I call the nanny fascination I think that
1:14:39 it’s not that hard to understand like the nanny is a lot of the characteristics
1:14:43 of the wife right she’s good with the kids she’s there to be a supportive other
1:14:50 to the husband she’s a helpmate you know but without any of the autonomy an
1:14:55 agency without any of the like she’s an employee at the end of the day so much
1:14:58 simpler of a relationship in the sense that it’s like you got to do a good job
1:15:02 or I’m gonna fire you you know so not talking back yeah don’t talk back
1:15:07 because I’m your employer you know and you’re not gonna so I think I get it you
1:15:12 know I get it I also think too that and this is that this is this is dangerous
1:15:18 ground especially in the year of our lord 2024 but I think she’s also a version
1:15:25 of the wife like she’s a version of the wife when the wife was just a woman like
1:15:31 she has a life outside the home like she when she’s not nannying she’s out doing
1:15:35 stuff and so she’s got things to talk about like she’s gone places she does
1:15:40 things there’s something mysterious about her you know and I think that’s one
1:15:46 of the advice I give in the book is is that I think that wives can can embrace
1:15:51 the part of themselves that’s the nanny like take the time to like don’t let
1:15:56 your spouse and your children eclipse who you are like who you are is who your
1:16:01 husband fell in love with like your your your kids exist because a man and a
1:16:06 woman found each other attractive you know and and so don’t don’t forget in
1:16:10 your desire to be a good parent and your desire to be a good partner don’t
1:16:14 forget to be really good to yourself and to to cultivate your interests and your
1:16:18 passions and to try to enjoy them as best you can you know without shirking
1:16:21 obviously none of us wants to shirk our responsibilities to our families and
1:16:26 our children but you’re important like I think people are the husband and the
1:16:30 wife you know are important or in the same-sex marriage husband husband wife
1:16:34 wife you’re important to each other you know remember who you are remember the
1:16:38 value you brought to the relationship people often go to divorce lawyers when
1:16:41 their marriages break down but listen I’m a huge fan maybe the biggest fan you
1:16:46 ‘ll ever meet of serial killer documentaries sure and just murder
1:16:49 documentaries period there’s not one I haven’t seen I’ve seen them all and in
1:16:52 those documentaries the first one of the first things you learn is that if the
1:16:58 wife goes missing like 80% of the time it’s the husband and I was just thinking
1:17:07 about how that kind of some people might see it as a choice go to you listen
1:17:16 there’s a reason because I understand how trapped people feel I think that you
1:17:24 sign on for this thing that feels so good love we fall in love so fast have
1:17:28 you seen that documentary on Netflix American dream was it American what was
1:17:34 that documentary Netflix where the guy has a wife and two kids and then he meets
1:17:38 a younger woman out and about at work and he in the set of getting a divorce
1:17:45 he decides to murder his wife and the two baby girls smother than both and dump
1:17:50 them in a barrel at work in and he’s seemingly night obviously he’s not but
1:17:58 seemingly a normal guy yeah who as you say just looked like he was trapped
1:18:01 in a situation where he met someone new at this family didn’t know how to handle
1:18:07 it and made this horrific decision yeah yeah I mean I think I mean that’s an
1:18:13 extreme example but I I actually when you spend enough time with people who are
1:18:20 in horrifyingly awful situations like they’ve they’re having an affair for
1:18:26 many years they’ve hidden money or they’ve done you know like they they’ve
1:18:30 engaged in transgressions that if their spouse found out about it they would
1:18:36 just be like are you kidding me you know and I think most of the time like it
1:18:42 starts with just one sort of bad choice you know and then that bad choice leads
1:18:45 to a series of choice like it you know they always say I mean if you watch
1:18:49 enough serial killer things it’s not the crime it’s the cover-up you know you
1:18:52 don’t get caught for the crime you get caught for the cover-up it’s like the
1:18:56 things you do to try to cover your tracks is the thing that leave the tracks and
1:19:00 it’s it’s the same I I think have you seen murder in your practice you deal
1:19:06 with that is that part of your work I you know thank God I I’ve only had one
1:19:12 client in 25 years of practice who there was an active effort made by their
1:19:18 spouse to try to kill them and they they ran her over four times and stabbed her
1:19:23 thought she was dead left her for dead and six months of surgeries and all
1:19:27 kinds of things later she survived she’s well she has injuries for the rest of
1:19:31 her life that will plague her but she is alive and he is in prison for the rest
1:19:36 of his life that’s thank God the only time I’ve ever seen that happen I mean I
1:19:40 see a lot of domestic violence I see a lot of intimate partner abuse few was
1:19:43 your client in that case she was my client she was your client before that
1:19:47 happened yeah she was my client before that happened to her he was it he was a
1:19:51 perpetrator of domestic violence for many years but there was nothing in his
1:19:55 history that would lead you to believe that he had that propensity towards
1:20:00 violence the divorce was going very badly for him I was doing my job very well
1:20:06 and he you know he I don’t want to say he snapped because it gives it too much
1:20:11 credit I I think he just got it in his head that she was his enemy and the
1:20:14 cause of everything bad that had ever happened to him and that killing her
1:20:20 would be a better choice and he got her to meet him in a a sort of remote
1:20:24 location a parking lot of a hotel under a false pretense that he wanted to give
1:20:28 her something related to the kids or something and he stabbed her several
1:20:32 times then ran her over several times he did it himself did himself yeah he did
1:20:39 himself and it was it was shocking I mean you you don’t want it what’s
1:20:44 happened more commonly is I’ve had clients who’ve committed suicide and
1:20:48 self-harm and I’ve had clients who their spouse you know committed suicide
1:20:53 that’s happened many times where people I think feel they they’re losing
1:20:57 everything their whole lives falling apart they can’t imagine what their
1:21:03 post-divorce life will be or they’re so horrified by the behavior they engaged
1:21:07 in during that they think that it’s just impossible to get out of this situation
1:21:11 so you would be working with a client and then you get a notification an email a
1:21:17 message saying that they’ve ended their life yeah yeah it’s more commonly
1:21:21 happened to me it’s only happened to me where a client I lost a client that way
1:21:27 once it’s happened four times on the other side where I got an email saying
1:21:35 this person has been found and you know it ends the case obviously so it’s a
1:21:43 hard thing as a professional because I know that I’ve done a lot to make this
1:21:49 person’s life very difficult because that’s my job but if that person had
1:21:56 hired me you know a month before their spouse did I would have been arguing for
1:21:59 their benefit I would have been arguing as their advocate I would have been
1:22:03 trying to help them as best I can and instead I was hired by their spouse and
1:22:08 my job’s to kind of take them apart as best I can like I’m a weapon you know a
1:22:11 divorce lawyer is a weapon and a weapon in the hands of a good person is
1:22:16 protects things and a weapon in the hands of a villain is very harmful so
1:22:22 has your work ever made you cry yeah sure absolutely I think I’ve cried for a
1:22:27 lot of reasons about my work I’ve cried from frustration when I couldn’t when
1:22:34 justice wasn’t served and and I felt that I could have done more or different
1:22:40 out of frustration I’ve cried I’ve cried I think I’ve cried more often out of
1:22:48 beauty I I’m much more welled up by what I by things that are beautiful to me
1:22:54 than things that are upsetting to me like I I’m astounded by the strength of
1:23:00 people sometimes I’m astounded by the resilience of people you think of an
1:23:09 example on either end of the spectrum yeah yeah you know I had a client I got
1:23:13 him his dog back you know there’s nothing about animals that I think is
1:23:18 just so it’s just so pure how much we love them like they don’t really care
1:23:22 what we make they don’t care if we’re impressive or not or if anybody bought
1:23:26 our book if anybody how many views we have or clicks we have like they don’t
1:23:30 they just love us you know maybe it’s because we feed them maybe it’s because
1:23:33 we scratch them the right way but I want to believe that it’s just that they’re
1:23:38 just so much heart and so much love you know and I had this guy who at the
1:23:41 beginning of the case he just said look man I don’t care like I don’t care what
1:23:45 I have to pay her I don’t care where to get me my dog like just get me my dog
1:23:48 she doesn’t really love the dog but she took the dog because she knows how much
1:23:53 I love the dog so just get me my dog back like I just want my dog back and
1:23:58 he was this older gruff guy this is the last guy you would think you know like
1:24:03 that the dog would be that important to him and we fought really hard we and we
1:24:08 got his dog back and I remember when I came out and I ran down the lake okay I
1:24:11 got you this we got you this we got you this and you and the dog and he started
1:24:16 crying and I started crying like a child you know because I there was just
1:24:19 something so beautiful about like that yeah that’s what mattered to him like
1:24:23 that he got his dog back you know and and I I could imagine in my head like
1:24:29 that the reunion between those two and that was very moving to me the
1:24:34 impermanence of a relationship with a dog is something that I’ve had you talk
1:24:38 about before yeah and how we can and sort of the impermanence the fact that we
1:24:40 only have dogs for a short time I’ve got a dog as well and I’ve had it since it
1:24:44 was a puppy and it now has gray hairs and it’s older and it doesn’t run like it
1:24:48 used to and little Pablo I’m get I’m now realizing that he’s in the last season
1:24:54 of his life and it just makes you want to play with the more and cherish those
1:24:59 moments more and be kinder and give him another treat and yeah and we’re we’re
1:25:08 if we’re honest we’re we’re always losing everyone all the time like and
1:25:16 and that’s why to love anything is insane right because to love anything is to
1:25:20 expose yourself to the inevitability of losing it and I’ve learned that I learned
1:25:24 that as a hospice volunteer for many years and I’ve learned that as a human
1:25:28 being and I’ve learned that as a divorce lawyer that like we’re all losing
1:25:33 everything all the time even our child like you have a child that child
1:25:37 tomorrow the child they were the day before is dead it’s gone they’re a new
1:25:43 thing every day until you know until all of us are ghosts until all of us are
1:25:54 gone and so to me keeping that awareness in your mind is everything like like you
1:26:00 you honor that dog by saying you know what I I took for granted when this was a
1:26:05 puppy peeing on everything and running around and eating all my shoes you know
1:26:10 like I I didn’t realize like there was a limited amount of time like there is a
1:26:16 finite number of times you will watch the sunset you don’t know that number but
1:26:22 it exists you just don’t know it yet there’s only so many more summers that
1:26:27 you will be here to see you just don’t know the number it could be one it could
1:26:35 be a hundred it’s probably not a hundred right so I think to me when people
1:26:39 say like well how is a divorce lawyer so like you know into love and such a
1:26:44 romantic at heart like how could you not be how could you not be when you’re
1:26:50 confronted every day with how fragile love is and how transient it is and how
1:26:57 powerful it is it’s it means so much to us so much of what we do all day is to
1:27:02 find love and to be loved and to feel worthy of love and and and then we have
1:27:09 it and we just kind of forget we have it until it’s going away and then we
1:27:13 and then it’s too late or it’s gone and now it’s completely too late like if you
1:27:20 realize was a Pablo you’re done if you realize how amazing Pablo is when Pablo
1:27:26 is gone shame on you like you should when you pick him up and smell him you
1:27:29 know like that’s the to me like that’s everything there there’s a I don’t if
1:27:33 you ever read tich Nhat Hanh’s work the Buddhist monk so tich Nhat Hanh was a
1:27:38 Vietnamese Buddhist monk he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in
1:27:41 like the 80s he wrote some beautiful books he passed away a few years ago but
1:27:46 he wrote several books one of them being peace is a beautiful one he’s written a
1:27:51 whole bunch of books peace in every step but he he as a Buddhist monk has this
1:27:56 mindfulness exercise and I’ve said it to people I’ve shared with people a couple
1:27:59 times they always look at me like I’m insane when I say it so I’ll share it
1:28:03 with you because you you brought up death if I bring it up too much in polite
1:28:05 conversation people just think I’m morbid and then they’re like all this
1:28:08 guy does talk about death and divorce we gotta hang out with like nice
1:28:12 or more fun people but he has this mindfulness exercise and it’s this he
1:28:16 says when you hug someone think about the fact that they’re there and you’re
1:28:24 hugging them then close your eyes and they think about that they’ve died and
1:28:28 this is the last time you’re hugging them before you let go of their body and
1:28:35 it’s taken away and then remember that they’re alive and you’re hugging like
1:28:41 how could that not choke you up like how could you not like when you hug your
1:28:48 dog you you will someday most likely have to put your dog down right you will
1:28:53 have to make that very painful but very responsible and loving decision that the
1:28:57 best of this dog’s life is over and that there’s nothing but pain ahead I’ve had
1:29:02 to do it several times in my life it’s heartbreaking but it’s the final act of
1:29:05 love and service to something that you’ve had to menu know for and taken care
1:29:11 of and have the duty of taking care of and I I know every time you I’ve had to
1:29:19 do that three times and just smelling it and going oh that’s it that’s it it’s
1:29:22 gone now
1:29:37 and the memory of that scent it’ll fade but like right now that dog’s alive
1:29:43 Pablo’s alive and you can smell him and and and and you’re not letting go of him
1:29:51 now he’s there he’s there right now like so how do you not right now just breathe
1:29:55 that in every chance you have because you don’t know how many more times you’ll
1:30:01 have and and I don’t when people say to me like well how can you think so much
1:30:06 about death or how can you think so much about Brexit how can you not haven’t
1:30:12 you ever lost anything have you forgotten what it was like to have it like did
1:30:17 you not keep in your mind like how beautiful this was and how it’s gone
1:30:25 like my mother died eight years ago and I found an old videotape I didn’t even
1:30:29 know like existed and it was my dad had like gotten a video camera and he’d
1:30:34 like shop you know all these video and I could hear my mother’s voice and like
1:30:40 hearing it I went like it oh my god like that was her voice like I haven’t heard
1:30:44 it in eight years and I heard it again and it was so familiar you know and I
1:30:50 thought to myself oh my god like I’m so glad I got to hear that but when she was
1:30:54 alive I never thought like oh my god she’s here like I get to hear her voice
1:31:00 because someday that’ll be gone like it’ll be gone the memory of her voice
1:31:07 will be gone it will fade every like tears in rain it will just fade and so to
1:31:13 to me like that if we could just have that presence of mind when it comes to
1:31:20 love like love is not permanently gifted it is loaned and the people you love the
1:31:25 dog you love the people they’re loaned to you and you’re loaned to them and if
1:31:29 you could just remember every day to treat it like something that’s
1:31:32 impermanent and that you’re losing all the time like because I’ll tell you
1:31:36 something I think it’s insane to love anything because of the pain that it’s
1:31:41 gonna cause but oh my god man I love that pain because it means I got to feel it
1:31:51 like I I I know when I got my dog Kaba I only got Kaba because Buster died if he
1:31:56 hadn’t died then I never would have had room in my life to get another dog so
1:32:02 in some horrible way I guess I’m glad that he died like but that’s not how it
1:32:08 works how it works is that he died Buster and I went I will never love again I
1:32:12 will never do this to myself again I will never feel this pain again it’s the
1:32:19 worst thing in the world I will never expose myself to that and then a friend
1:32:22 called me up and said hey man we’re doing an adoption event with this dog and I
1:32:26 just need you to watch him for the night he’s a puppy he’s got mange he’s a
1:32:29 little goofy thing but like I just need you to watch him for the night and I was
1:32:33 like yeah you know what I don’t have the kids this weekend like I’ll watch a dog
1:32:39 for a night and then you fell in love brings this stupid dog this little
1:32:46 stupid mange ridden worms and he walks in to my apartment and he pees
1:32:53 immediately on the floor and I thought oh shit I just got a dog I just got a
1:32:59 dog again I’m doing this again and that was 13 years ago and man I’m so glad
1:33:04 like I’m so glad and and he’ll he’ll sit there you know with his little gray
1:33:09 face now and he’ll sit there next to me and he’ll look at me he’s just is
1:33:13 crazy about me as I’m about him because he knows I saved him and I know he’s
1:33:20 saved me and he looks at me and I think to myself oh you’re gonna kill me like
1:33:23 you’re gonna kill me when I lose you and it’s gonna happen sooner rather than
1:33:27 later I’m not gonna have another 13 years I’m lucky if I have another year
1:33:34 but man like I don’t know I’ll do it I I’m so glad I did it he saved you yeah
1:33:40 yeah cuz he he he reminded me of a thing I forget that we all forget that I
1:33:48 have an infinite capacity for love no matter what I lose
1:33:56 because we’re just losing all of it all the time but that’s not a reason not to
1:34:03 love that’s not a reason not to look it’s it’s so brave to love and it’s only
1:34:09 brave because it’s scary like if you’re not scared it’s not brave it’s only
1:34:14 brave because it’s terrifying it’s terrifying to know like this thing’s
1:34:19 gonna break my heart then I’m gonna let it I’m gonna let it break my heart
1:34:23 because the joy that it’s gonna give me in the interim like I wouldn’t trade
1:34:26 that for anything in the world and you know right now if you say to me when
1:34:33 Caba passes away will I ever do it again I’m like nope absolutely not absolutely
1:34:38 not but you know what I’m lying I’m lying like I’m lying I’ll love again I
1:34:43 know it I know it and and I think it’s the same thing with romantic love our
1:34:50 hearts get broken we we you know we fall apart we break in relationship and we
1:34:55 heal in relationship and we recover from that breaking in relationship and I
1:35:05 think there’s something really really important there you’ve really
1:35:09 accomplished me the first person you got me to cry on a podcast it’s pretty it’s
1:35:11 really something to be proud of I cry all the time though to answer your
1:35:15 question yeah I cry constantly for a guy who’s like tattooed up and down and
1:35:19 does Brazilian jiu-jitsu for fun I cry constantly usually because something’s
1:35:25 beautiful I think that that’s what moves me the most is how beautiful it all is
1:35:32 like I I think this is all it’s a game we can’t win you know and we just keep
1:35:38 playing it and that’s so lovely like it’s so brave it’s so it’s so cool that
1:35:42 like it’s all ending all the time and we just keep doing it you know we just
1:35:46 keep doing it because if there’s something in our hearts that wants it you
1:35:52 know maybe that’s I don’t know like I’m not a religious person but maybe that’s
1:35:57 some insight into the nature of God that like we we come from something and we
1:36:01 disconnect and then we spend all our life trying to reconnect to something
1:36:04 want to talk to you about our sponsor LinkedIn for all of the entrepreneurs and
1:36:07 business owners that listen to this podcast you’ll probably want to hear
1:36:10 this one so stay tuned for a second whenever you’re scaling and building a
1:36:13 business your business needs are completely unique and I’ve been there I
1:36:17 know what struggles you’re facing and what allows you to land your next dream
1:36:23 client and one tool that is an absolute must is LinkedIn ads you’ll have direct
1:36:28 access to a billion LinkedIn members yes a billion members access to 70 million
1:36:33 decision-makers and 10 million C level executives on LinkedIn the pool of
1:36:36 individuals that LinkedIn allows you to access is insane and
1:36:41 uncomparable and you’ll know if you follow me on LinkedIn how prolific I am on
1:36:46 LinkedIn LinkedIn to me is actually the highest returning paid social platform
1:36:49 and I don’t think people quite realize that so I’m giving you the Diary of a
1:36:54 CEO community a $100 credit on your next LinkedIn ad campaign head to
1:37:01 LinkedIn.com/doac24 to get started now the link is in the description below it’s
1:37:04 interesting because you I saw in your face when we halfway through the
1:37:08 conversation that you were talking about how beautiful love was and I could see
1:37:10 the emotion in your face when you’re talking about how beautiful love is and
1:37:13 it’s contrasting because at the start of the conversation I would have thought
1:37:16 that you thought marriage and love was just this like terrible idea obviously
1:37:20 there’s a distinction between the two it’s everything no it’s everything I
1:37:24 think I think doing what I do for a living I see that better than most
1:37:28 people like they because we just keep putting these giant bets on the table
1:37:32 and we wouldn’t do it if we didn’t think the prize was worth it you know but see
1:37:40 I also believe too that we need to start looking at romantic relationships
1:37:47 like chapters in a long book like I don’t soulmates we but I have to say
1:37:51 whoever created the term soulmate like I owe them a tremendous debt of gratitude
1:37:55 because they they really helped facilitate divorce as an industry because
1:38:03 the idea that we have a soulmate and that that’s the one always creates the
1:38:07 possibility that a this person’s perfect for us for how could I be dissatisfied
1:38:10 with them if they’re perfect for me I must depict the wrong one and
1:38:16 look that one over there that might be the perfect one why because I feel as
1:38:19 great about them as I did about this one when I first met it but I just don’t
1:38:23 remember that as much anymore so the soulmate thing oh it’s great for business
1:38:27 for me but I think it’s terrible for human beings I think you probably could
1:38:32 have a whole bunch of people that you could have had a very satisfying romantic
1:38:37 relationship with again not to keep preparing things to dogs but like because
1:38:41 you love the dog you have now does it mean you didn’t really love the dog you
1:38:46 have like that’s ridiculous it’s like people have children don’t go like well
1:38:49 I you know I couldn’t love anything more than this other child so I’m not having
1:38:52 any more children because you know I couldn’t possibly love it’s like no you
1:38:55 have an infinite capacity for love so if you have two children you have five
1:39:00 children like you love all the children that you have you know so I think you
1:39:07 should look at relationships as chapters just because a relationship ends in
1:39:11 something other than death right it ends in divorce it ends in a breakup
1:39:16 whatever it might be it doesn’t mean it wasn’t successful did you leave it a
1:39:21 better person than then you came to it with did they did your partner did did
1:39:26 you learn from it did you learn what you want or don’t want did you learn how
1:39:31 you should behave or how you shouldn’t behave did you learn something about how
1:39:39 you want and need to be loved or how you fail in your attempts to convey love
1:39:45 to someone else like it why not look at it as what was good for me in this
1:39:51 chapter may not be the sustaining thing like who you find attractive and what’s
1:39:56 compelling in your 20s and your 30s and your 40s and your 50s can be different
1:39:58 you talk to a lot of 20-something roles and say well Cardi you want when you’re
1:40:03 in your 10 Lambo want the Lambo great you put a car seat Lambo if you get one
1:40:08 car and that’s car gonna drive for the rest of your life okay and you’ve never
1:40:14 been 50 yet so you don’t know what you’re gonna want when you’re 50 now
1:40:17 there’s this idealized thing where everybody goes like well but you know
1:40:20 you’ll grow together and then what you’ll want you’ll grow together and
1:40:25 you’ll change the okay well what are you basing that on like is that is that a
1:40:31 thing is that demonstrably true or is that just like your hope like we we hope
1:40:35 we’ll grow together and we’ll grow in complimentary ways because why because of
1:40:39 proximity because we’re near each other we’re gonna grow in complimentary ways
1:40:43 like is that naive I think that might be naive like I don’t have any proof of
1:40:52 that God so many of the couples you see it must be confused as to whether this
1:40:56 relationship is actually broken or we’re just like not doing the work I think
1:40:58 that a lot of my friends like they’ll they’ll come to me and say my
1:41:01 relationship struggling and the first thing you try and figure out is whether
1:41:06 this is something that is fixable or it’s they’re the wrong and what do you do
1:41:12 in that equation you compare right yeah you compare and what do you compare to
1:41:18 something fake bullshit yeah compare to something fake you compare it to the
1:41:24 rom-com yeah which is basically porn for women yeah right like it’s it’s an
1:41:30 idealized stylized version you saw Titanic you you know why they had that
1:41:35 perfect romance cuz he died before you could screw it up you think ten years
1:41:39 later she’d have been like keep painting your French girls go no she wouldn’t
1:41:42 up she’d have been like forget it what are you doing get a job you know there
1:41:46 would have been issues in that relationship so it only was perfect
1:41:49 because it ended it ended before they could screw it up you know they end
1:41:52 the movie like the old saying I think it was Orson Welles who said you know
1:41:55 whether something’s a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end the story
1:41:59 you know so it’s relationships like you ever want to test that theory in the
1:42:04 reverse go out with a couple that’s unhappy with each other and then say to
1:42:08 them so tell me about how you met all of a sudden they like soften tremendously and
1:42:13 they start like talking about who the who they were and who their partner was
1:42:17 back in that day when they when it was all a possibility and and they were
1:42:25 choosing each other you know and so I think there’s tremendous value in you
1:42:29 know a great example I always try to like take non-relationship examples of
1:42:37 relationship items so one of my sons when he was a teenager was very critical
1:42:41 of me as a father he was very like sort of dismissive of me as a father we were
1:42:44 talking about something and he’s sort of said like well dad you know you’re not
1:42:47 like the perfect father and I said well first of all like I don’t know what a
1:42:55 perfect father is I was like but what are you comparing me to your idea of a
1:43:02 perfect father or like a father you actually know and have seen because
1:43:07 here’s the thing if you compare me to your perfect father in your imagination
1:43:11 I’m gonna compare you to my perfect son in my imagination and guess what
1:43:19 you suck cuz cuz we all suck compared to the ideal of our imagination and by the
1:43:24 way I said don’t learn this lesson now because if you compare a woman you’re
1:43:30 in a relationship with with your imagined ideal of a woman I promise you
1:43:35 you will be dissatisfied for the rest of your life in your relationship and if
1:43:39 she compares you to her idealized imagination of what the perfect man
1:43:45 would be she’s gonna be disappointed we need to start comparing relationships to
1:43:51 real relationships but how are we gonna do that if we’re so deeply committed to
1:43:56 lying to each other about how great our relationship is what’s the quickest
1:43:59 someone’s gone from marriage to divorce that you’ve seen in terms of how long
1:44:03 the relationship lasted yeah 48 hours you’re joking now 48 hours but that’s
1:44:09 usually an annulment that’s I mean Vegas baby yeah it happens sometimes that
1:44:13 happens sometimes where people just have like immediate immediate regret you
1:44:17 know or they marry it on a whim I mean you can there’s no like there’s a waiting
1:44:21 period to get a firearm you know there’s a waiting period for almost anything
1:44:26 marriage go right now get married no problem you just go you just go to
1:44:30 just the piece pay $40 license fee and you’re married that’s it go to Vegas you
1:44:35 get a big guy named guy dressed like Elvis will marry you for 50 bucks you said
1:44:38 there’s two main reasons why people get divorced infidelity which we talked
1:44:41 about and the other one we haven’t talked about which is money I found this
1:44:46 very interesting because I wouldn’t imagine that money issues and it’s not
1:44:51 the money issues we think about it’s not someone going broke yeah it’s not that
1:44:56 in your book you talk about it being transparency yeah so so I mean money is
1:45:04 power right money has a lot to do with power and I think there’s a lot you know
1:45:07 there’s a it’s a misattributed Oscar Wilde but it’s not something he would
1:45:10 have said there’s the saying that that everything in the world is about sex
1:45:16 except sex which is about power and I think money is about power money is
1:45:20 about control money is about opportunities security it’s about a whole
1:45:25 bunch of things but it’s not really about money like money is just a currency
1:45:30 right that we trade in so I think money has a whole bunch of complicated stuff
1:45:34 tied up in it it’s why we can’t in polite conversation like talk about what
1:45:38 did you pay for that how much do you make you know it’s it’s considered sort
1:45:43 of indelicate to do that because we’ve loaded it up with all kinds of emotional
1:45:50 things about worth and relative worth and so you know it’s not uncommon that
1:45:54 people are dishonest with themselves and with each other about money it’s also
1:46:02 not uncommon in a relationship that one of two dynamics emerges either one
1:46:08 person has a tremendous amount of economic disparity like leverage or the
1:46:16 economic power that they can or can’t leverage because of marriage or both
1:46:21 people have somewhat equal bargaining positions and then something changes so
1:46:26 like I see a tremendous number of divorces when husband and wife are both
1:46:33 working and husband loses job big big precipit for divorce because men it
1:46:38 sends them spiraling into a depression that they’ve lost this job that much of
1:46:42 how they define themselves in sort of the traditional masculine gender role is
1:46:46 that of a provider and a protector and now I failed at that through no fault of
1:46:49 my own they laid off the entire Northeast region it’s not my fault but I no
1:46:53 longer have a job and then I have to go around and try to find one and redefine
1:46:59 myself and at the same time my spouse has managed to keep their job and I’ve
1:47:05 seen a lot of women that when their spouse loses the job and they become the
1:47:10 breadwinner they find that very unappealing that they they that a man
1:47:16 as the breadwinner was appealing the man as economic equal is appealing the man
1:47:20 as I have to take care of him financially and provide for him very
1:47:25 uncomfortable so I see it when a man loses his job I would love if they kept
1:47:30 statistics on these kinds of things but I can tell you in my practice I’ve seen
1:47:34 plenty of women lose their job it has no impact on the marriage men lose their
1:47:39 job in a heterosexual male-female marriage it is it is disastrous
1:47:45 consequence is a great deal of the time and I think that has a lot to do again
1:47:50 it’s not about money it’s about what the money symbolizes it’s about providing
1:47:56 it’s about power control respect for the ability to to go out there and like
1:48:00 forge something from the world we said at the start this conversation on this
1:48:03 subject of money sometimes you give legal advice and sometimes you give human
1:48:07 advice as it relates to money should I be telling my partner how much money I
1:48:10 have because I imagine there’s kind of two different legal art there’s a legal
1:48:14 answer in a human answer yeah I mean they’re entitled to find out so yeah
1:48:19 part of part of well in a divorce you have what’s called mandatory discovery
1:48:23 which is that I have a right to review all of your financials in that process so
1:48:28 a tremendous amount of what I do all day and my team is they we go through
1:48:32 people’s books like we go through the credit card slips we got through all
1:48:37 the economics to find out like where the money is where it went you know and
1:48:39 that’s how we find out what everybody spent on their girlfriend or boyfriend
1:48:43 and all the credit card receipts really when someone says I’ve got the receipts
1:48:48 like no I’ve got the receipts because I can I can subpoena them meaning I can
1:48:51 get them directly from the credit card company I can get them directly from
1:48:55 your employer all your information about what you actually were given and it’s
1:48:59 very hard to move money around without leaving a trace these days like well a
1:49:01 lot of people then must be trying to hide money because I think I’ve heard of
1:49:04 cases where there was one particular case of a footballer who apparently put
1:49:09 everything yes in his mother’s name did you see that me yes and the problem with
1:49:16 that is it’s a great story makes for a great story but there are in most
1:49:20 jurisdictions protections against that because it’s what’s called a transfer
1:49:25 in contemplation of divorce so it’s essentially a form it’s like a fraudulent
1:49:31 conveyance it’s it’s designed to thwart someone’s otherwise appropriate legal
1:49:37 remedy so if I know I’m being sued and that this person has a valid claim so I
1:49:43 sell my Lamborghini for five dollars to my brother the court can void that
1:49:49 transaction but what if I before that before there was any you know suspicion
1:49:52 of divorce or any issues I put everything in my my brother’s or my mom’s name you
1:49:56 can do that you’re allowed as long as it was not done yeah I actually have seen
1:50:00 that many times I I’ve seen well I represent a lot of people in finance and
1:50:06 people in finance have a way of seeing money very differently and I’ve seen
1:50:11 people who over a 20-year period like did things to take things out of the
1:50:16 marital estate so that they were beyond the reach of the court let’s be quite
1:50:19 surprising when you’re the other partner and you assume that your partner
1:50:23 super rich you go for the divorce and you find out that they have nothing it’s
1:50:27 more common that people don’t realize the debt structure that they’re living
1:50:31 under because a lot of people live under a tremendous debt structure this
1:50:34 happens in celebrity divorces a lot because a lot of it is the appearance of
1:50:39 wealth but it’s not actual wealth and so you know they’re they’re highly
1:50:44 leveraged and so what does that mean for the average person that doesn’t know
1:50:48 what credit card debt primarily credit card debt is a big thing where the cars
1:50:51 that you don’t own the cars you lease the cars so they’re actually owned by the
1:50:56 bank even your home if you’re home you know 70 80% of the equity in your home
1:51:00 is the bank’s mortgage then you don’t really have much you don’t own your home
1:51:03 the bank owns your home I think this is something people misunderstand is that
1:51:09 you get 50% of your partner’s assets and you get 50% of their debts of course
1:51:15 well you get your you get the assets net of liabilities yeah and most people like
1:51:20 their net worth is what do you own net of liabilities so there are a lot of
1:51:24 people making a very very good living but they don’t really have a lot of assets
1:51:28 because what they’ve done is they’ve leveraged in a tremendous way they have
1:51:31 they have mortgages and they have debts accumulating they have leased
1:51:35 automobiles they have you know jewelry that they took a personal loan to
1:51:40 guarantee or that they purchase jewelry knowing that it will immediately
1:51:45 depreciate in value you know the resale on it is much much lower than the value
1:51:49 that they just paid for it so it’s a it’s a it’s an illusion in many ways what
1:51:53 about the opposite of that where someone was in a relationship and their
1:51:58 partner thought they were like broke or didn’t have much money it turns out
1:52:04 that’s what you yeah what’s actually funnier is when somebody when someone
1:52:08 really through no fault of even their own comes into some massive amount of
1:52:14 money like I’ve had people I actually had a client who won the lottery and so he
1:52:20 went from like nothing yet like a minimum wage kind of a job and they lived a
1:52:26 very modest life and they were unhappily married but they were like well you know
1:52:29 can’t really afford to live as a couple we certainly can’t afford to live apart
1:52:32 like it’s bad enough we can’t pay our electric bill to have two electric
1:52:35 bills we’d have a hell of a time and he won the lottery he used to play the
1:52:40 powerball and he won like you know some insane amount of it’s like I don’t 50
1:52:45 million dollars so then after taxes it’s like a 50% tax it was like 25 million
1:52:50 dollars and he was beyond thrilled until he got told yes she’s gets half she
1:52:54 gets exactly half and he was like wait why I bought the ticket I’m like you are
1:52:58 one person in the eyes of the law if she won the lottery you’d get half of it
1:53:01 you won the lottery she gets half of that’s how it works did they stay
1:53:05 together no of course not she was like I’m we’re miserable with each other I
1:53:08 mean at that point he was suddenly very motivated that maybe we should stay
1:53:13 together but she was like I get wait a minute I get I get you know half a 25
1:53:17 million and I don’t have to deal with you anymore see ya now is that I was it
1:53:23 so I was in my office she had served him with divorce papers what about lgbt
1:53:28 couples yeah does everything we’ve said apply an equal measure do they do they
1:53:31 get divorced in the same yeah do they have the same issues we’re talking about
1:53:37 sex do they yeah you know I don’t I don’t think I think a lot of the same
1:53:44 things are true meaning impermanence soulmates all of those kinds of issues but
1:53:52 I think because gay and lesbian couples were forced to the outskirts of the
1:53:57 culture they were the outsider for so long so much of my life even as a 51
1:54:04 year-old man so much of my life I saw my gay and lesbian friends ostracized
1:54:09 marginalized and put on the periphery that when you are put on the periphery
1:54:15 there is as awful as that is it is unfair as that is an injustice that is and
1:54:19 how much it should rightly offend our sensibility to see people marginalized and
1:54:25 ostracized it creates a certain freedom where it’s like okay then we we don’t
1:54:29 have to follow those rules we can make our own rules invention yeah we can
1:54:33 just we can do it how we want to do it cuz you know what they think we stink
1:54:37 they think we’re the worst they think we’re just you know okay so then we can
1:54:42 we can do it how we want to do it cuz no matter what they’re not gonna accept us
1:54:45 so we might as well do it the way that makes sense for us instead of you know
1:54:50 tradition is peer pressure from dead people so if you’re someone who’s like
1:54:54 my parents have rejected me sorry tradition is is peer pressure exerted
1:54:58 by dead people I mean it’s really what it is I’m not saying traditions aren’t
1:55:03 valuable but at their core tradition is peer pressure from dead people like your
1:55:06 grandma did it this way so you should do it this way like okay your grandma lived
1:55:11 in a whole different time your grandma did not have the entire totality of human
1:55:18 wisdom in her hand that she could press a few buttons on so to say oh yeah like
1:55:23 the same rules the same institutions the same ways of being they should be
1:55:27 exactly the same that’s insane we didn’t make rules for non-heterosexual
1:55:32 relationships so they they’re getting to make their own rules and it turns out and
1:55:35 they did and they did like I have a lot of gay male friends I live in Chelsea
1:55:39 which is a section of New York City that for many years was primarily gay male
1:55:45 section to live in and so I happen to have a lot of gay male friends and it’s
1:55:49 very funny to me because when I would talk to them even before marriage
1:55:53 equality and before the sort of widespread acceptance of gay and lesbian
1:55:58 families and gay and lesbian lives and relationships is being valid like it
1:56:03 wasn’t that long ago that will in grace like will couldn’t kiss his boyfriend on
1:56:09 TV this was like the 90s that that was going on so this isn’t that long ago
1:56:15 man I have suits older than that like this is the thing so you know they they
1:56:19 used to my gay male friends used to have these very kind of non-conventional
1:56:23 permutations of relationships they’re like yeah you know we we can kiss other
1:56:27 people but like we can’t have sex with other people or we can do oral sex with
1:56:31 other people we can’t but we have to let them know that we’re doing like it
1:56:33 because they were like hey we’re on the outskirts we get to kind of make up our
1:56:40 own rules and there’s something very and what’s funny to me about that is when
1:56:44 marriage equality was coming about and I’ve been a consulting attorney for
1:56:49 for something called Lambda legal which is gay and lesbian legal defense which
1:56:55 you know 20 years ago it meant like the right to exist like the right to like
1:57:00 not be fired from your job because you’re gay like that seemed to me like
1:57:07 basic human rights you know the idea now like we’ve gone quite far in terms of
1:57:10 now there’s some controversies that I kind of go okay wait I’m not quite sure
1:57:13 even as someone who’s identified as a progressive liberal for quite some of
1:57:19 my life I don’t know that I can go this bridge too far but but the basic
1:57:24 fundamental right like the right to marry I always felt you know what if you
1:57:30 want to be able to participate in this unbelievably failing technology you
1:57:35 have every right in the world like if you hate gay people let them marry why
1:57:39 should they be having all the fun like let them marry and I remember sort of
1:57:43 thinking that jokingly and when marriage equality finally happened in the
1:57:47 United States I went to a good friend of mine who will remain nameless and I
1:57:51 said to him he’d been in a long-term relationship maybe like two years and I
1:57:56 said so many sites you like you know you married he goes no I’m not psyched why
1:58:00 would I be excited about this I said what do you mean you get married now he
1:58:04 goes yeah like I never had to deal with that I never had to have the
1:58:10 conversation it never had to be like you know where’s this going you know are
1:58:14 we in event he’s like if anything I could go like oh I would marry you but
1:58:21 I wish I wish we could but the government it’s out of my hands he’s
1:58:25 like now now I have to have this conversation now I have to like well
1:58:28 where’s this going and are we getting married and what do you think and if
1:58:31 we should we move in and should we have even kids should we have kids like it
1:58:35 used to be we were barred from having kids or adopting kids now we can adopt
1:58:40 kids it’s no problem it’s like great now I got to have that conversation so
1:58:45 again I’m not suggesting that that we shouldn’t have marriage equality we
1:58:49 shouldn’t have the freedom to adopt and to have children but I think it’s a
1:58:55 Faustian bargain for everybody and and so my experience of gay and lesbian
1:59:00 couples currently because I’m currently doing a number of divorces for lesbian
1:59:06 couples and gay couples I think that you know the honeymoon period isn’t quite
1:59:10 over yet like marriage equality is only been the law of the land for like you
1:59:14 know ten years something like that so give it some time we’ll see maybe
1:59:17 they’re better at it maybe they’ll be worse at it maybe they’ll be just as
1:59:24 equally awful at it as we are what about open relationships do they work more you
1:59:28 know I’m I’m not qualified to answer that question for the following reason I
1:59:35 meet a lot of people who have tried various types of ethical non-monogamy
1:59:42 polyamory but they all have in common that they’re in my office yeah so I see
1:59:48 all the ones that didn’t work yeah so me saying well I’ve met a lot of couples
1:59:52 where they tried the polyamory thing or they tried ethical non-monogamy and it
1:59:56 didn’t work and it led to divorce is like an oncologist saying like dude
2:00:01 everybody’s got cancer I met like 10 people today we have cancer right you’re
2:00:03 an oncologist like of course you meet a lot of people that have cancer like a
2:00:07 guy who’s a cab driver doesn’t meet that many people who have cancer like you
2:00:10 might meet one or two but he’s not gonna meet all of them but you work in
2:00:13 cancer so you’re gonna meet people like I happen to meet people getting divorced
2:00:20 so all of the bit I’ve met a lot of people that gave that a shot and it did
2:00:24 not work now again was that the liking case of emergency break glass like
2:00:29 let’s just try this have you ever seen it work I’ve never in any of my
2:00:36 friendships in any of my personal relationships I’ve never seen non-monogamy
2:00:44 successful but I don’t think we’re quite at a place as a culture where we’re
2:00:52 really being honest about monogamy like Esther Perel some of her work I think is
2:00:58 brilliant about monogamy infidelity because I I don’t think it’s quite I
2:01:05 think there are a lot of couples where there is non-monogamy happening but
2:01:10 there’s sort of a don’t ask don’t tell policy and there’s a sense of you know
2:01:16 if this is what you need to do to sort of stay happily committed because if we’re
2:01:22 honest a marriage is a whole bunch of different relationships in one
2:01:27 relationship it’s your roommate it’s your co-parent it’s your travel companion
2:01:32 it’s your family companion meaning like they have to deal with your mother-in-law
2:01:39 and your father-in-law – and like it’s a whole bunch of relationships and it may
2:01:45 be that men and women or a particular man and a particular woman in a
2:01:50 relationship have a different sense of how important sex is and you know it’s
2:01:58 okay to delegate it’s okay to say you know listen I don’t really like football
2:02:03 so go watch football with your friends you see that a lot where’s the partner
2:02:07 or the the other partner that you’re not dealing with has accepted yes the other
2:02:11 partner cheating well not cheating but they’ve allowed them to just quietly
2:02:16 go I’ve had a lot of people who come in and say to me he had a bunch of affairs
2:02:20 over the years and I just let it go like really or she had a bunch of affairs
2:02:24 over the years and it wasn’t we didn’t make an issue of it really and see just
2:02:28 the fact that you and it’s understandable I’m not criticizing you but the fact
2:02:34 that you go really is okay why would that be that shocking like people cheat all
2:02:37 the time people step outside of their relationship all the time people like
2:02:41 diversity of sexual partners okay so here’s the question then have you ever
2:02:48 seen an affair in the presence of someone being in love I don’t know that
2:02:52 be qualified to say whether someone was in love or not here’s what I will say
2:02:56 because love is an emotion and love is a verb I’ve seen I’ve certainly seen
2:03:03 people that were having affairs and in every aspect of their outward life
2:03:08 appear to be deeply committed to their marriage okay so they were okay they were
2:03:12 an economic provider they were a diligent parent they were attentive to
2:03:16 the emotional state of their partner they still had an active sexual
2:03:20 relationship with their partner but it wasn’t a let’s say a terribly prolific
2:03:26 one perhaps but you can’t cheat and be in love sure I mean listen just the term
2:03:30 cheat you know like like okay well then a cheat meal like you can be on a healthy
2:03:35 diet and enjoy a cheat meal you know and there’s something great about it
2:03:38 because it’s a cheat meal it’s like a little thing you do to treat yourself and
2:03:42 then you go back to eating healthy and regular right because look at there’s
2:03:47 something about the human desire for variety there’s something about passion
2:03:50 I mean you know I always say this I’m not a religious person but like we’re all
2:03:56 familiar with the ten commandments you know and theoretically if that story is
2:04:02 true which again it’s not provable or disprovable but God handed down ten rules
2:04:09 like that’s a talked to humanity and said here’s ten rules don’t kill good
2:04:18 one honor the Sabbath good one okay don’t cheat on your spouse don’t covet
2:04:24 your neighbor’s wife it got to it got two rules like he didn’t say thou shall
2:04:29 not kill like seriously don’t kill that’s right no but but don’t sleep with
2:04:36 other people got to add a ten rules from God theoretically like that’s amazing
2:04:42 that should show you how long this has been a thing how human of a problem or
2:04:48 issue or compulsion this is it’s the most human thing this desire like yeah
2:04:53 we want a you know Freud civilization and its discontents you know all of these
2:04:59 all of these brilliant minds from all over the world over the whole span of
2:05:05 time have struggled with monogamy have struggled with sex have struggled with
2:05:11 the desire for sex wars are fought over sex people rise and empires rise and
2:05:16 fall people rise and fall I used to say that like I think 90% of what most of
2:05:22 the men I do they do to get laid they do they why work hard so I can make money
2:05:26 why so I can get a nice car why so I can attract beautiful women like look at
2:05:30 look at the red pill space the man is fear all this everything is about making
2:05:34 yourself appealing to women or making yourself appealing to potential sexual
2:05:38 partners whether it’s just one or a whole diversity of them okay that’s a
2:05:46 different thing but it’s about that it’s about that so should we get married
2:05:53 should we get married I mean from a job security place I hope people continue to
2:05:57 get married because if they don’t I’ll be out of a job but in seriousness I
2:06:06 don’t think I think we will continue to get married should we I don’t think we
2:06:10 should say all of us should I think we should ask the question I think we
2:06:14 shouldn’t assume we should get married that’s what I think I think that we
2:06:18 should ask the question what is the problem to which marriage is a solution
2:06:25 and do I have that problem and will it solve that problem because the fact that
2:06:33 it’s an odd question to say when someone says I want to get married that it
2:06:41 would be odd for me to go why yeah why is that weird like if you said I want to
2:06:46 have a podcast why it’s a perfectly reasonable question I want to go to
2:06:52 Florida why like the weather I have a friend there whatever I want to get
2:06:57 married why what do people respond when when you typically ask that question
2:07:01 what’s the most frequent response to the reason for the invention of the
2:07:05 technology of marriage because I posted many years ago that I I was
2:07:08 suspicious about marriage and I remember all the comments that I got and
2:07:11 different people are doing different things well it’s it holds them it holds
2:07:14 the controversial it’s super controversial people get a very attached
2:07:18 to it I remember one of them I remember was a case that it’s the best
2:07:22 environment to raise kids in when the parents are in that kind of bond I had
2:07:24 another one which means that you stay and you solve the problems instead of
2:07:28 running away so marriage is really good for that regard but but you know the
2:07:32 reasons why people say marriage makes sense what are those key reasons why I
2:07:36 think that there’s religious reasons that’s a big one I get all the time like
2:07:40 like in the comments there will be like a billion people that go marriage is a
2:07:45 covenant between God and as if like I hadn’t heard of this you know as if I
2:07:50 didn’t go to Catholic school my entire life like yes I get it I get it that’s a
2:07:55 belief you have and that’s okay like my beliefs don’t require that you believe
2:07:59 them yours may require that I believe them and that’s okay like we’re gonna
2:08:04 agree to disagree if your fundamental thing is that God spoke to you and told
2:08:10 you a thing whether it was in written form or verbally like I can’t argue with
2:08:14 that you sound like you’re a big fan of love and not a big fan of marriage I’m a
2:08:18 fan of marriage to the extent that it facilitates love but I just don’t see a
2:08:22 nexus between those two things I don’t think these two things have that much
2:08:25 to do with each other and I think to the extent that they have something to do
2:08:28 with each other they probably could have existed without the marriage like I
2:08:34 think I think marriage is a symbol of something and I don’t think you need the
2:08:38 symbol to have the something it’s confusing a finger pointing at the moon
2:08:44 with the moon like it’s it’s confusing the the simp like marriage is supposed to
2:08:52 be I think a symbol and I love it for that I love the idea of two people who
2:08:58 are so excited about how they make each other feel and how the effect they have
2:09:03 on each other and the fact that the other has on them that they want to get up in
2:09:11 front of a bunch of people who they know and say this is my person I found them
2:09:16 and I’m I’m gonna stick with them through good and through bad and I’m gonna see
2:09:21 their blind spots and I’m gonna not be a yes man I’m gonna tell them when they
2:09:25 get it wrong but with love and I want them to do the same thing for me I want
2:09:28 them to cheer for me and I want them to be on my side and I want them to
2:09:31 disagree with me when I need to be disagreed with so I don’t make really
2:09:34 dumb decisions just because I got a cheerleader all the time behind me like I
2:09:37 got a cheerleader because I need one the world sucks and everybody’s always
2:09:40 criticizing me and I criticize myself constantly but having this person next
2:09:44 to me who goes man you can do this come on get up you can do it you know or I
2:09:48 fell down it’s okay people fall down you’re great get up come on you can do
2:09:53 it or who’s gonna say to me you know yeah that’s I know you’re doing this for
2:09:56 this reason and I get it but I don’t I don’t think it’s gonna make you feel what
2:09:58 you think it’s gonna make you feel so maybe you don’t do it and I’m gonna go
2:10:02 okay they wouldn’t say that if it wasn’t out of love so I’m gonna hear that and
2:10:05 I’m not gonna be afraid of it like and I want to get up and we’re gonna say this
2:10:08 to a bunch of people and then we’re gonna wear rings because it’ll be a
2:10:12 reminder for us and for the world that I got a person I got a person and that’s
2:10:17 my person you know dude how do you not cheer for that that’s incredible it’s
2:10:21 great you can have that without the yeah of course without the contract you
2:10:24 want to get the government involved like well you have to get the government
2:10:30 involved really like you that story I just told that’s that’s the story that’s
2:10:35 the feeling that’s the interpersonal connect when you say to most people they
2:10:40 say I’m getting married you go why they first of all they look at you like you
2:10:43 have lobsters coming out of your nose like they’ve never the question never
2:10:47 even occurred to them why because you get married that’s what you do that’s
2:10:53 insane but if you say to them why they’ll usually say something that’s a
2:10:58 total non-answer well I’m in love okay what does that mean you have to get
2:11:02 married well because I want to you know I want to maintain that connection okay
2:11:08 how how specifically is marriage going to maintain that connection and again if
2:11:12 it’s a public declaration okay I think there’s value in a public
2:11:15 declaration if I want I don’t smoke cigarettes but if I wanted if I was
2:11:19 smoking cigarettes I want to quit smoking cigarettes there’s value in
2:11:24 getting up and saying hey guys just y’all know I’m gonna quit smoking and if you
2:11:28 love me I want you to help hold me accountable so if you see me smoking or
2:11:31 if I ask you for a cigarette don’t give me one because I really do want to quit
2:11:35 smoking you know there’s value in that there’s value in the tribe all going
2:11:38 alright man you know that’s what you want let’s do it we’re gonna we’re
2:11:42 committed to it same thing with marriage if matter if the purpose of marriage is
2:11:45 to say hey guys it’s really hard to be monogamous I don’t know if anyone’s
2:11:49 noticed so and like the world is really antagonistic to marriage but like I
2:11:53 really want all the great things that come from having a person who sees my
2:11:57 blind spots and who’s supporting me and I’m supporting them and the symbiosis the
2:12:01 beauty of that relationship and the connection of those two people so I
2:12:06 want you to hold me accountable I want you my friend that when I you see me
2:12:10 looking at the other girl that you go to me hey bro forget about what you got at
2:12:12 home come on man you got a good you got a good one what are you doing you know
2:12:17 like I want you to hold me accountable I want women out there to see that wedding
2:12:22 ringing to go yep not him not him even if he talks to me not him he’s married
2:12:27 let’s let’s leave that one why because if it was my one I wouldn’t want him
2:12:31 talking to some other girl so I’m not gonna talk to him you know instead it’s
2:12:35 not what we do that is not what we do as a culture you ever want to get laid
2:12:39 put on a wedding ring and go out suddenly you’re safe suddenly you’re a guy
2:12:42 they can talk to it he’s not on the make because he’s married he’s obviously
2:12:47 wearing an outward symbol of his relationship again like this is crazy
2:12:53 it’s crazy because we’re just not being honest about what this thing really is
2:13:01 marriage is a legal status it’s a government intervention it’s it everything
2:13:06 else is just stuff we’re putting on top of it and calling it that thing but you
2:13:12 can have all that stuff without having legally the status of marriage James we
2:13:14 have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a
2:13:17 question for the next guest not knowing who they’re gonna be leaving it for but
2:13:21 I told them they’re leaving it for and the question that’s been left for you is
2:13:24 a brilliant one because it’s very on-topic and once in a while this
2:13:33 happens when was the first time you experienced true love
2:13:38 oh boy you make me cry again
2:13:46 was the first time I experienced true love gosh that’s a great question and
2:13:52 just the fact that just experience of being asked that question is running my
2:14:00 mind through the most lovely slideshow of so many times I felt loved and felt
2:14:06 deep love so boy what a lovely thing to ask every morning if I could like that’s
2:14:12 a lovely question because just the fact that there’s just the fact that there’s
2:14:15 a competition going on in my brain right now is the greatest thing in the world
2:14:20 because all the stuff that’s running through my head and it’s so diverse
2:14:27 there’s me kissing an amazing woman for the first time and feeling that there’s
2:14:36 my sons each of my sons kissing me or hugging me there’s kava and buster
2:14:42 pickles lady Maggie every dog I ever had and there’s an image I can imagine of
2:14:48 it there’s my the first thing that popped into my head which is gonna sound
2:14:55 crazy but maybe it’s the stage in life that I’m in when I was a little boy my
2:15:01 my father my father was a not a particularly effusively loving guy he
2:15:07 was a Vietnam veteran he was a bad alcoholic he’s been sober now for eight
2:15:14 years I’m very proud of him and he’s in his eighties now but growing up he was
2:15:22 very unemotional to me and I remember I had this best friend Tommy and we had
2:15:27 pizza one night at my my parents house and you know pizzas cut into like eight
2:15:32 slices and Tommy and I were like you know growing boys we wanted to eat you
2:15:35 know the crane we ate really fast you know we each ate our three slices and
2:15:41 my dad would have had two left you know for him and we ate so fast that that our
2:15:45 six slices were gone and there was just two left and I know my dad was like
2:15:51 super hungry but he was like if you guys want you can have you can have them and
2:15:56 I remember you know we just ate them like you would obliviously like a kid and a
2:16:01 couple of weeks later I was at my friend’s house same friend and his they
2:16:04 ordered pizza and there was like you know same thing eight slices and and his
2:16:14 dad ate like four slices and I remember thinking my dad would never do that and
2:16:18 I remember I felt very loved because I remember thinking like this is a guy who
2:16:23 never said he loved me like ever it just wasn’t his vocabulary it wasn’t who he
2:16:31 was but I just remember thinking like oh he loves me like it it satisfied him
2:16:37 more to see me eating that extra piece of pizza than what eating that piece of
2:16:43 pizza would have given to him and I remember thinking like oh he loves me so
2:16:52 I would say to me that was a very pure and true kind of love and when I had my
2:16:59 sons I remember thinking oh I get I get that like they can have the whole pizza
2:17:08 so to me that’s you know that’s true love is when it’s it’s not even
2:17:12 sacrificing to give that the joy of the other person just gives you so much joy
2:17:18 and fills you so much that that it’s just the greatest thing
2:17:27 James thank you thank you for all the work you do you’ve given me so interesting
2:17:30 you know I went into this conversation thinking I’d learn about divorce and
2:17:35 relationships but I leave this conversation with a profound appreciation
2:17:40 for love that’s great in a way that I don’t think I’ve ever had before and I
2:17:44 also with that profound appreciation I think causes you to want to take a
2:17:48 certain set of actions I hope so then I think about what you said about the
2:17:52 impermeence of love you’ve made me want to cuddle Pablo because I know that I
2:17:55 don’t have many years left with him but also there’s many people in my life that
2:17:59 maybe I do have many years with I don’t know how many years I have with them you
2:18:03 don’t and I have to tell you I think I’m really grateful to hear you say that I
2:18:11 hope you do that because I really think we are the most we are the most aware of
2:18:16 the joy of our good health when we’re in the presence of illness we are most
2:18:22 aware of the beauty of life when we’re in the presence of death and the
2:18:29 impermanence and we can be the most aware of the power and presence and
2:18:36 beauty of romantic love when we remember that that it is impermanent it is not
2:18:42 permanently gifted it’s loaned and that we’re blessed to have it for however long
2:18:49 we have it so if if that’s what anyone walks out of talking to a divorce lawyer
2:18:55 you’re thinking about then then mission accomplished thanks for having me
2:19:03 we released it the first time and it sold out instantly we released
2:19:07 conversation cards again and they sold out instantly for a second time we’ve
2:19:12 updated the cards put all the new questions in and we’ve introduced a
2:19:16 twist on the back of the conversation cards now we’ve got different levels of
2:19:21 vulnerability so level one these are more sort of surface level questions and by
2:19:25 the time you get down to level three the questions become a little bit more
2:19:30 challenging a little bit more vulnerable and that’s really where connection
2:19:35 happens the brand new version 2 updated conversation cards are out right now at
2:20:03 the conversation cards dot com