The Guy Who Studied Buffett for 25 Years

0:00:06 I have a thought experiment for you imagine if you could just snap your fingers and suddenly there was a second version of you a
0:00:12 Second-body brain your eyes your ears the way you think the way you operate, but with one caveat one change
0:00:16 It would do whatever you said to do. You know what I would tell it to do
0:00:23 I would tell it to go study the art of investing investing like Scott Galloway says is like having an army of capital
0:00:29 Go wage war for you. All right, instead of you working for money. Your money works for you. I love that
0:00:30 So how do you get great at something?
0:00:37 Well, you would study the greats and that’s exactly what the person who’s coming on this podcast today has done
0:00:42 He’s gone back and for 25 years has studied everything that Warren Buffett Charlie Munger all the great investors
0:00:46 What they have done read every single annual letter go and read all the reports study there
0:00:51 How they grew from bit by bit block by block step by step and not just learn them in the book
0:00:55 But then went and practiced it and so I wanted to ask this guy
0:00:58 What did you learn about investing and what can I learn?
0:01:03 How can I spend an hour or two with you and download ten years of your brain? His name is guy spear
0:01:08 He’s a very cool guy a lot of people really respect guy cuz he is a incredibly humble
0:01:13 Interesting guy. I think you’re gonna love this conversation. So enjoy this episode with guy spear
0:01:27 I have all these notes about where to start cuz I’m like, oh, he’s value investing
0:01:28 There’s gonna be good investing knowledge
0:01:34 But the thing I was actually curious about when I was doing my research was about this group that you had called the posse
0:01:38 Oh, yeah, and I don’t know if the posse still exists or this was just a moment in time
0:01:41 But can you explain what was the posse who was in it? What was it?
0:01:45 Well, what’s happened to me is I’ve discovered that I love Warren Buffett value investing Berkshire Hathaway
0:01:49 So I want to be all over anything that’s got to do with that and in New York City
0:01:55 There’s this Ruane Coniff firm that has a friend of Warren Buffett’s two friends of Warren Buffett’s that run it
0:02:01 And they have a mutual fund and they have an annual general meeting and I got invited to some event before after and
0:02:06 there’s a guy Whitney Tilson there who’s like master network to the power of master networker and
0:02:11 We’re introduced to each other and we’re one year away from each other at Harvard Business School and
0:02:18 The next thing I know he invites me to meet other people and he doesn’t invite me to the group on its own
0:02:21 He invites me to meet this person over there or that you’re sort of like
0:02:26 Hey, go have a coffee with that guy and so before I know I’ve met three or four members of this group and
0:02:33 Then it was Whitney who put together a group of five or six of us who are all fascinated by Warren Buffett
0:02:40 Who all wanted to become better investors and we’d meet I think it was sometimes we’d meet even once a week and in one of
0:02:41 our members offices
0:02:47 There was a member that had an office in Midtown and we’d present ideas and Whitney’s friend Bill Ackman was part of that group for a
0:02:54 while, that’s how I met Bill Ackman for the few times I’d met him and I wasn’t really aware of
0:02:59 What that was or why well, I I kind of we’d had study group at business school
0:03:02 And obviously you want to get together with friends who have common interest
0:03:10 But I didn’t realize what a powerful tool for success. It was until at that dinner and lunch first meal with Monash Pabrai
0:03:12 Where he talked about
0:03:18 Forums YPO forums and he said you should you should get into one you’d benefit and then then I got switched on but
0:03:25 But that posse met for about I think it met for two or three or four years and we’re still part of an email chain
0:03:29 I mean Whitney will send out an email send out a happy birthday message to the group
0:03:35 Some have become very very good friends of mine and some are I’m not even sure where they are now
0:03:36 So you what was happening?
0:03:40 So you’re meeting let’s say once a week or every couple of weeks and you go to someone’s office
0:03:47 And you said you had you would all the commonality was you’re all investors who were fans of the Buffett style of investing value investing
0:03:52 What would happen at these groups you show up? What actually is there a substructure?
0:03:56 Did you just somebody’s got a stock that they’re interested in and you start debating it? What would happen?
0:04:02 So what I what I remember is that you needed to show up with a written a written stock idea
0:04:07 Everybody or one person just one person and then you discuss it in depth at that meeting
0:04:12 And then the following meeting another person would come with a written stock idea that you would distribute hand out
0:04:16 Give the hand out and then you’d talk it through and obviously at the end of that
0:04:20 I like a half an hour 45 minute sort of talk through that
0:04:23 There’d be various other ideas that were discussed
0:04:25 But as a result of that what would happen
0:04:33 I remember one sitting in a car with with Whitney driving somewhere in New Jersey to visit a company called is it was called
0:04:40 Is we interactive services worldwide ink is w I that had gaming software for TVs for example
0:04:47 So there was sort of follow-on meetings that happened both social and business related or somebody would I realize
0:04:51 This is at a time when transcripts of conference calls were not available
0:04:56 So somebody would listen to a conference call and they’d make notes and they would pass them out by email for example
0:05:00 So there’s a kind of the structured part of those meetings, but what is
0:05:06 Really really fascinating is that unstructured sort of like somebody mentioned something or says something
0:05:11 And I think that many of these best ideas come because somebody says something that is really fascinating
0:05:15 So as a result of this I we’re at a dinner somewhere
0:05:20 Bill was at this dinner and he started talking about MBIA and he started talking about how
0:05:28 The asymmetry of the bet on the credit default swaps on MBIA and it was not I could have read that in a document
0:05:33 I could have had that but it was the way Bill talked about it that really stuck in my mind
0:05:40 I thought wow that is really fascinating, and so that kind of meta information if you like is is what you really get out of it
0:05:47 All right, let’s take a quick break because I want to talk to you about some new stuff that HubSpot has now
0:05:51 They let me freestyle this ad here, so I’m gonna actually tell you what I think is interesting
0:05:56 So they have this thing called the false spotlight showing all the new features that they released in the last few months
0:05:59 And the ones that stood out to me were breeze intelligence
0:06:03 I don’t know if you’ve seen this but if you’re in HubSpot, and you have let’s say a customer there
0:06:09 You can just basically add intelligence to that customer the estimated revenue for that company how many employees it has
0:06:13 Maybe their email address or their location if they’ve ever visited your page or not
0:06:19 And so you can enrich all of your data automatically with one click using this thing called breeze intelligence
0:06:24 They actually acquired a really cool company called clear bit and it’s become breeze, which is great because now it’s built in
0:06:27 I always hated using two different tools to try to do this now
0:06:31 It’s all in one place and so all the data you had about your customers now just got smarter
0:06:32 So check it out
0:06:36 You can actually see all the stuff they released really cool website go to hubspot.com
0:06:40 Slash spotlight to see them all and get the demos yourself back to this episode
0:06:47 Can you tell the farmer Mac story because I think that was a a great example of
0:06:55 What it came out of so there I am investing started off investing I’m investing for friends fools and families
0:06:58 I think how Monash would put it so but I’m shit scared
0:07:02 I’m very very scared because I really I don’t know what I’m doing
0:07:07 What’s a Harvard MBA a guy who pretends to himself in the world that he knows what he’s doing when he actually doesn’t you know
0:07:09 But I knew that I didn’t know what I was doing
0:07:15 So you know so so you’re looking one of the ways in which I approached that challenge was to look for people
0:07:21 Who did know what they were doing who were I thought they knew what they were doing and to kind of try and
0:07:28 Unwind what they did to to backfill to reverse engineer what they’ve done and do the same thing
0:07:34 So I got all sorts of investment ideas through that and I’ve obviously I was studying Warren Buffett
0:07:39 And I was also studying a guy called Tom Russo and I can give examples of for example
0:07:46 Tom Russo was invested in Nestle and I started I kind of like wow brands. That’s a really powerful way to place to look
0:07:51 Where else can I find consumer brands? So, you know Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae at the time where these?
0:07:56 government-sponsored enterprises kind of a duopoly slash monopoly
0:07:59 highly highly profitable
0:08:04 enormous balance sheets, but were super successful at making money for their investors, but also for
0:08:08 Organizing the mortgage market in a way that made sense for everybody
0:08:13 So there they are and so I’m doing what I normally do which it will normally do which had made sense for me is
0:08:19 Look for similar kinds of situation because Buffett was invested in Freddie and Fannie
0:08:22 Yeah, so he was there. You’re looking at Buffett for ideas
0:08:28 So you’re saying and and similar to those and I actually had an investment in Freddie Mac and
0:08:34 Was making quite a bit of money in Freddie Mac was very very happy with that investment
0:08:38 And so I’m saying what are the similar government-sponsored enterprises are there?
0:08:41 And I uncover Pharma Mac
0:08:48 So Pharma Mac is also a government-sponsored enterprise and their goal is in the same way that Freddie and Fannie are
0:08:54 Funding the mortgage market by buying these mortgage-backed securities buying and issuing mortgage-backed securities
0:08:59 These guys were doing the same thing, but in farms farm loans
0:09:04 so they would buy up farm loans package them up and resell them with their guarantee and
0:09:11 The claim was that they were reducing the cost for farmers to borrow while at the same time
0:09:17 Creating valuable securities for investors to buy and I thought wow, this is incredible
0:09:23 This is really really good and it’s miniscule and I just frickin love this and so I think I probably did present on
0:09:29 Pharma Mac and I kind of like sat down with the posse and said hey you guys check this out
0:09:31 This is you know
0:09:36 This is the next Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae except Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are sort of like tens of billions
0:09:41 If not hundreds of billions of market cap, this thing’s got a market cap of I’m not mistaken
0:09:47 Maybe one or two billion and there’s plenty of room to grow all that jazz. Maybe two or three weeks later
0:09:50 Whitney says to me
0:09:52 You know that company you presented well
0:09:58 I think Bill Ackman’s either shorted or he’s about to take a massive short position and he wants to talk to you
0:10:00 So I’m like okay
0:10:06 So I take the call from Bill and Bill says look I just feel like I I need to tell you
0:10:12 I kind of got the idea indirectly from you, but I’m I’ve just taken a massive short position in
0:10:19 Farmer Mac and I feel like I need to tell you I think that the company is borderline fraudulent and
0:10:27 I was like, okay. You’ve got my attention. You know, there’s a there’s a saying who’s wise he learns from every man
0:10:33 Who’s wise guy spear who learns from Bill Ackman and I kind of said look, you know, this is
0:10:35 important to me
0:10:41 Can I just come down to your office? Yeah, come on down. He says prove me wrong prove prove to me that I’m wrong
0:10:43 so I go down to his office and I
0:10:52 Also remember that the black files. He had like sort of huge several meters worth of files where he had taken
0:10:58 So every time one of these government sponsored enterprises issues a mortgage-backed security
0:11:04 It’s kind of like a kind of like an IPO. They’re publicly public filings available. You need to know, you know, they’re issuing
0:11:08 Debt on the one side to fund their asset purchases on the other
0:11:13 So what are their asset purchases? What are the terms of this mortgage-backed security?
0:11:19 And so he downloaded I have to confess and I hate confessing this but it’s true. I hadn’t downloaded one
0:11:27 I took them at their word and and you know, we he kind of said look when you look at the the entities that are
0:11:32 Created by Freddie and Fanny each one of these mortgage-backed securities has
0:11:40 hundreds if not even hundreds thousands of different individual mortgages and the individual mortgage sizes would be anywhere from
0:11:47 $50,000 a hundred thousand dollars to half a million and and they’re kind of like their classes of mortgages
0:11:54 And there’s distribution across the country. So these might be from East and West Coast North and South different income categories
0:12:00 He said I’ve downloaded. I don’t know. He downloaded a number of the pharma Mac ones
0:12:07 He said like there’s there’s three mortgages inside. He said that doesn’t create kind of the distribution the risk of spreading
0:12:10 It’s it’s like it’s just three. It’s like that’s like a bank loan
0:12:13 There’s those three different things that have gone into a kind of a bank loan
0:12:16 This is not and the mortgage sizes were far larger
0:12:23 In and that maybe three was an exaggeration but a hundred or two hundred rather than tens of thousands
0:12:30 So much more risk. Yeah, and he just said look, this is business lending. This isn’t this isn’t a mortgage-backed security
0:12:33 There’s no way you can call this a mortgage-backed security, you know, I
0:12:37 Debated him. I said look, it’s got it’s got a government guarantee behind it
0:12:41 He said yeah, it’s got a government guarantee. But what they’re doing is they’re engaging in
0:12:45 business-related lending from his perspective. This was a
0:12:52 Lending against a business not lending against real estate and it just didn’t deserve to be there. So was he right?
0:12:56 I think he was right. Absolutely. And and look
0:13:03 What what was clear to me in that moment was that I had not done the depth of analysis that he’d done
0:13:09 And I first of all, I hadn’t downloaded those documents. I could have downloaded them
0:13:13 I hadn’t downloaded them or maybe maybe they weren’t I could have located them and found them
0:13:16 It wasn’t as easy to find as it was would have been today
0:13:23 But I I could have found them and I’m kind of torn between wanting to stay and learn more and and rush back to the office
0:13:29 And put in a sell order and literally I mean I I got back to the office and I put in a sell order
0:13:33 I I knew I didn’t know it well enough. I knew that the points he made were good
0:13:41 And and I sold it by the end of the day lucky enough the fund was small felt super relieved that I’d sold it and then
0:13:46 Either I or Bill or Whitney got a meeting with the management
0:13:53 So what happened there was absolutely astounding to me actually the management came with its pre-prepared presentation and
0:13:57 they were ready to go through the presentation and
0:14:02 Of course, it’s very dangerous when a management does that because they lead you in the direction
0:14:08 They may not even do it consciously. They’re leading you in the direction. They want you to go and Bill says
0:14:14 Look, I know a lot about the company. I prefer if we dispense with the presentation
0:14:19 We just go to the questions that I have for you. They were a little non-plussed by that, but
0:14:21 They they agreed to it
0:14:27 They they didn’t really have much choice and then Bill came with the same kinds of questions that he posed to me
0:14:30 That I didn’t have good answers for like why is this different to business lending?
0:14:35 How can you call this a class when there’s only a small number of loans inside?
0:14:41 They’re all inside and when they’re all of different sizes, whereas a mortgage-backed security will have, you know
0:14:43 many many many single-family homes and
0:14:50 They they didn’t have any good answers at some point the CEO said well, maybe this might not be the right investment for you
0:14:53 Which is a pretty pretty weak
0:14:55 I don’t know if that makes it into my book
0:15:00 But that was a pretty weak thing to say and I was kind of absolutely shocked shocked
0:15:07 And it’s one of the one of three stocks that I’ve shorted in my life actually when presented with the counter argument instead of simply
0:15:11 You know explain they should know their business better. They should be able to answer those questions
0:15:13 They just took their ball and said
0:15:20 Okay, maybe don’t play with us. Yeah, exactly and look Bill was a way better at that point a way better analyst than I was
0:15:24 I had all sorts of other things I needed to be doing just to keep my little business afloat
0:15:29 There are all sorts of good reasons as well for why I was unable to dive that deep
0:15:34 But it showed how from time to time if you don’t do the analysis all the way
0:15:38 Especially when you’re going to a place where other people haven’t been you’re gonna get it wrong
0:15:41 There’s an example that comes to mind when you say that in my life in a
0:15:48 entrepreneurial sense, but I I have a friend who is a good buddy of mine and a bit of a mentor to me
0:15:54 We made a deal with one of my businesses to for him to help me out and so he says, okay great
0:16:00 I’ll help you out. I said hey, can we meet on Friday Friday comes around and I’m expecting
0:16:05 I just thought this is how business works. I thought we’re gonna meet on Friday. So Friday noon
0:16:11 That’s when the the video call will start and then we will start to talk and we’ll discuss some ideas
0:16:14 and then maybe after we discuss there’ll be some actions and
0:16:20 Basically in the like 72-hour period before he just went to our site
0:16:26 We have a e-commerce site and so he went to our site and said and just immediately opened up a Google doc and started writing a
0:16:32 Bunch of like really hyper tactical observations of things that were messed up in our own product
0:16:35 There’s this weird thing that happens with your own product where you spend so much time in the back of your business
0:16:39 You never like use it as a customer whereas he just went and use as a customer
0:16:42 He went into our ad account and and he laid out this Google doc
0:16:50 That was like two pages bullet point. No fluff words in between. It was just try adding this remove this
0:16:55 This is missing. Hey, you wrote this here, but that doesn’t this this link doesn’t work in your ads
0:16:58 try this segmentation strategy try this try this try this and
0:17:02 He had laid out this two-page doc and so by the time we showed up at the meeting I
0:17:05 Was like, oh, well, I guess we don’t really need to discuss
0:17:11 You already did an audit basically and told you dove so deep deeper than I’m doing in my own business
0:17:16 Which is embarrassing for me at the moment, but it was so useful and it became a real eye-opener of like
0:17:20 Oh, this is how the best people operate, which is that when they’re gonna do something
0:17:24 Did just drill right in to the source of the of the issue
0:17:29 We’re if we’re trying to grow the the answer to how we grow is gonna be in the actual product
0:17:34 Mechanism and he went right there. He found a bunch of opportunities and it was like there’s nothing to discuss like
0:17:37 Make these changes and then let’s see let’s talk after that, you know
0:17:43 Well, why would we talk before and it was a real eye-opener for me and how the best people operate?
0:17:48 They go straight to the tactical stuff of like what could we just simply be doing better in the in the funnel
0:17:52 What strikes me about that is that what extraordinary acts of generosity?
0:17:58 so he was giving you sort of like something that he was giving you the best part of his brain and
0:18:04 He was giving it to you just out of the desire to give and it feels to me. Obviously. I wasn’t there
0:18:07 he’s giving it without any agenda and
0:18:13 Just maybe he loves to do it or because he really cares about you or because he knows about a lot about the topic
0:18:20 And and that that seems really special friend because there are people who know a lot, but they just don’t have the time
0:18:24 They either don’t want to have the time or generally don’t have the time to talk to you about your stuff
0:18:30 And so that that’s pretty pretty special, especially if he wasn’t an investor yet or he wasn’t an employee yet
0:18:33 Yeah, I think we’re both Tony Robbins
0:18:35 you know
0:18:38 I don’t know fans or I notice that
0:18:43 And he has a friend, you know the secret to living is giving and he talks about the you know
0:18:47 Almost like in the hierarchy of needs. Eventually you get past yourself
0:18:54 Can you tell a couple of the lessons that you got from Tony or maybe that and what what shaped you out of out of that?
0:18:56 Because it you you like me or a
0:18:59 Self-improvement kind of infinite learner mindset person
0:19:03 I think a lot of the audience because that’s what I like to talk about is also wired that way
0:19:07 I would love to hear maybe some stories or some some big takeaways for you
0:19:12 So I think that in total I’ve I’ve done sort of like eight or nine Tony Robbins seminars in my life
0:19:15 Including a big one in Hawaii and I’m just curious
0:19:22 I what number are you on if I want to know if you’re more of an expert than me or vice versa less than that I’ve I’ve been to
0:19:27 – and so I’ve been to two or three two or three, but they’re all they were all the
0:19:32 UPW at least the power within I didn’t do is like kind of deeper stuff
0:19:37 But then I just kind of devoured a lot of his old material specifically like if you go on YouTube
0:19:39 There’s really great stuff of him when he was very young
0:19:43 Talking and you know not all of it is the stuff he talks about today
0:19:49 But he has some really good stuff that actually for business people is useful about public speaking about
0:19:52 Sales about marketing about persuasion
0:19:54 Yeah, and he doesn’t do a lot of that material now
0:20:01 But that was some of my favorite stuff that he did back then so so I mean and I think that what what comes up for me
0:20:06 As you say it is so you know, there’s this moment where in a way my destiny is
0:20:11 is on a knife edge with this meeting with Monash Papri and
0:20:13 Because I took the decision to
0:20:16 To approach him without an agenda
0:20:19 I got a very different Monash to the person
0:20:24 I would have gotten if I’d have approached him with it an agenda and first meetings are always very important
0:20:28 And so the decision to go to my first Anthony Robbins seminar was a bit like that
0:20:33 I had this really good friend in New York City who she says to me
0:20:39 Oh, you’re in San Francisco. There’s an Anthony Robbins seminar there. You should go it might change your life
0:20:45 And I remember at the time because I had this weekend planned with friends. It’s like, you know, I’m gonna go
0:20:47 somewhere perhaps my
0:20:54 Deep wise the deepest wisest part of me knew that just to go hang out with friends would be something like same old same old
0:20:58 Whereas going to the seminar might give me something new so
0:21:07 You know, I show up this seminar Anthony Robbins like six foot something tall and you know, and and he’s getting us to
0:21:09 Jump up and down. There’s a huge amount
0:21:13 You know as you’ve heard a thousand times anybody’s done Anthony Robbins
0:21:17 Emotion has got motion in it if you want to feel good about yourself
0:21:23 You need to look at your physiology and look at how you’re moving and change the way you’re moving in order to change your emotions
0:21:25 And I’m like this
0:21:32 Kind of snarky Brit at the back. You know, I’m just like sort of what is this and looking at my watch and thinking
0:21:35 Why did I waste the money? Maybe I can still go out and hang out with my friends
0:21:40 But I did the fire walk and once I’d done the fire walk
0:21:46 I was in a different place and so so for those who don’t know he kind of whips
0:21:53 Those who want to be whipped up into a state in which you feel very confident to walk across a bed of hot coals
0:21:54 and
0:22:00 You walk across them and you don’t get burned and you know, there’s all sorts of spiritual or non
0:22:07 Physical reasons. I you know is I think that the main thing is is the state of mind that you’re in and the firmness with which you walk
0:22:08 If you walk in that way
0:22:13 Anyway, it was like I it really did that metaphor of how if you have the right
0:22:16 Psychology and you have the right physiology
0:22:23 There are extraordinary things that you can do as a human that metaphor went in for me such that I now stayed the
0:22:25 rest of the weekend and in my case I
0:22:34 Was a guy who had my head up my rear end. I was I had achieved some early academic success in life
0:22:40 And I was getting to be quite bitter because I wanted success
0:22:46 But the things that I’d learned the routines that I’d learned to get success and at this point
0:22:50 I’m age 27 28 29 they weren’t working for me
0:22:56 And I I’m I’m sad that I see other people who had kind of similar circumstances
0:23:01 And I think the younger you are when failure hits you or when difficulty hits you the better
0:23:06 It is because the more likely you are to develop strategies and to adjust and to try different things
0:23:12 but I was at a point where I was kind of starting to get stuck in my ways and I really needed a very
0:23:17 powerful kick in order to it wasn’t enough that I knew things weren’t working and
0:23:22 Anthony Robbins did that for me. And so after that fire walk. I
0:23:27 Was really quite enthusiastic about everything that came out set after that
0:23:32 And I couldn’t stop talking about Anthony Robbins when I got back to New York and started reading NLP and started
0:23:39 Neuro linguistic programming and started like really diving into the self-help bookshelf to find more material
0:23:43 That would help me in that way. And I think that in my case
0:23:50 I was so badly programmed for the kind of earlier part of my life that I needed you probably did fine with one or two
0:23:53 Anthony Robbins UPWs. I needed every single one
0:24:02 And I’m and I’m super grateful to him for giving me that I mean, you know, there was a point on that first night
0:24:06 Where where he kind he kind of said and I know I bought it
0:24:11 So there was the fire walk and he said look you think I’m here to make money out of you
0:24:17 And he kind of said look, I’m definitely here because it’s a business and you guys have paid money to be here
0:24:22 And there’s a lot, you know, yes, I definitely make money out of this, but it’s not the true motivation. I really want to help you
0:24:25 I really really want to help you guys in this stadium
0:24:30 Get a different result from your life and and that actually I mean
0:24:38 You know one of the books that Monish gave me to read when I first met him was this power versus force book by David Hawkins
0:24:44 And I went strong at that. I he didn’t strike me as just selling me a yarn. I was like, okay
0:24:50 I I’m willing to open myself to this. He’s he actually wants to I don’t know if he can help me
0:24:55 But he’s at least that’s the intention. He’s expressed and I believe him, you know, then what I knew
0:25:04 Was that I had an enormous amount of rewiring of myself that I had to do and and so I started doing that rewiring and
0:25:09 it was that rewiring the process of rewiring myself and
0:25:15 Taking actions that I’d learned to do because I’d started doing Anthony Robbins that got me in front of Monish Pabri
0:25:22 What would be an example of a rewiring so like a before my brain thought this way or work this way and after?
0:25:24 so I I
0:25:31 had this awful attitude that I was smarter than most people that I met and
0:25:38 You know, first of all, I was way less smart than I thought I was, you know, and this that it’s not important
0:25:44 How smart you are it’s how smart you are relative to how smart you think you are and I had this arrogant attitude that
0:25:47 Once I’d categorized somebody as not worth my time
0:25:51 I didn’t really need to pay attention to them and
0:25:53 There’s there’s a moment
0:25:57 It’s either in the seminar or one of the cassettes and at the time
0:25:59 I was listening to cassettes of Anthony Robbins by the way
0:26:05 I had a collection of the cassettes and there’s the story that Anthony Robbins tells about walking up to maybe it’s Norman
0:26:10 Vincent Peel or another of these health health people and Anthony Robbins says look
0:26:16 I’ve I’ve read your book and nothing’s changed and and the guy says how many times have you read my book?
0:26:22 Auntie Robbins says well once he’s like go read it five more times and then come back to me
0:26:29 And so one of the books I’d picked up was Dale Carnegie’s book how to when friends and influence people that came well before
0:26:35 I discovered that Warren Buffett really learned a lot from Dale Carnegie and Dale Carnegie
0:26:41 So sits there and says the most important sound in anybody’s mind is their own name. What a freaking concept
0:26:48 You know, I was too busy trying to you know having studied law and economics and what have you and I was not connected to that
0:26:54 But so so that’s just the awareness. Oh my god. You don’t bother to remember people’s names
0:26:57 You don’t remember bothered to address people by their name
0:27:00 Is it a surprise that you’re not getting the results that you want?
0:27:06 And so I I then made an effort and it especially to somebody who grew up in the UK
0:27:08 In the US people will do it a lot
0:27:13 They’ll meet and say oh and they’ll say how do I pronounce your name make sure it’s pronounced correctly
0:27:18 And then they’ll use your name a lot and it struck me as being a little disingenuous
0:27:21 But actually I started doing it. I made myself do it
0:27:27 I said, you know wire this into yourself and around that time and this is not from Anthony Robbins
0:27:32 I’d read the psychology of influence and so I was like reciprocation reciprocation
0:27:33 I need to do reciprocation
0:27:40 I would buy bags of sweets and hand out sweets to like the doorman to the taxi driver to whoever the hell it was
0:27:45 so I had all these big theories of how the world worked from
0:27:52 You know these great professors and writers of textbooks and what have you and I could spend hours writing essays about how the world worked
0:27:57 But I’d never really spent time understanding how one-on-one interactions work
0:28:00 And how’d you get people to feel positively oriented towards you on a?
0:28:08 Micro level in real life, you know, and I was like shocking look. I think in my case. There’s a few things going on
0:28:13 I think that I’m just that module is not very good. It’s not very well developed in me
0:28:17 I take my wife, for example, we’ll go to some social event
0:28:22 She said do you realize the guy was you were standing too close to him or do you realize they wanted to go five minutes?
0:28:25 Before you actually allowed them to go and I’m like no, please help me
0:28:28 and I think that I’ve made some progress just not something I’m very good at and
0:28:33 Yes, we should specialize in the things that were really good at
0:28:38 But we need to be it bring a few things up to the bare minimum basics and there were a few things with me
0:28:41 That I was missing. They were just not the bare minimum basics
0:28:47 Yeah, it’s funny in your book. You talk about how when you were young you were like this Gordon Gekko wannabe
0:28:52 I wrote that phrase down. You’re like I was a young Gordon Gekko wannabe. I wanted to be rich. I wanted to be powerful
0:28:59 I wanted to run Wall Street you join DH Blair, which basically was like modeled after I think Stratton like the thing the
0:29:07 Featured in Wolf of Wall Street like the stock, you know firm and then DH Blair goes down a few years after you leave and
0:29:12 You’re at this point where, you know, you’ve gone to Harvard Business School
0:29:14 You got the job on Wall Street
0:29:20 you wanted to have the slick back hair and all the money in the cars and the power and then you have this kind of turning point which is
0:29:24 You know the Tony Robbins event which starts to get you to think about
0:29:32 Other things you go study NLP you study the Chialdini book about persuasion and you know how to win friends and influence people
0:29:36 You start working on on other things. There’s a great Tony Robbins line where he says, you know school is great
0:29:39 but learning is more important and
0:29:43 You know this point is that it doesn’t matter what you what happens when you’re in school
0:29:47 Like the point is to learn and sometimes it happens in school and sometimes it happens out of school
0:29:49 But the learning is the thing not the schooling
0:29:53 Yeah, and so it’s funny to me that it seems like you actually got your your masters after you left
0:29:58 Harvard Business School and started to pick up all these other traits that were important to you
0:30:01 Can you tell the story of the the handwritten notes because I found this
0:30:08 You know initially when I read this and I’ve heard this before I kind of wrote it off as this sort of simpleton cheesy idea
0:30:10 And it’s now come into my life three or four times
0:30:14 So what did you read in that book? And then how did that lead to ultimately?
0:30:19 I think you meeting Monish was from unhandwritten notes. So can you tell that little story?
0:30:23 I think there’s something I need to learn there because I’ve heard this three or four times never implemented it
0:30:27 Maybe this is the time so in the Chialdini book there is a story of
0:30:35 The person who was the most successful car sales person for the longest time and the way if I remember correctly
0:30:39 Chialdini writes about it. He just says he just wrote
0:30:43 1,000 cards a year saying I like you and
0:30:48 I don’t know if he actually said I like you if you go and do an Anthony Robbins seminar
0:30:50 you learn about matching and mirroring and
0:30:56 This idea that it’s very interesting. They had to what did the word like to like somebody and I like
0:31:01 We like people who are similar to us and the the idea is if you just match and mirror what they’re doing speak at the same
0:31:08 Speed where the same clothes have the same hand gestures. They will so I sort of say I literally I just said to myself
0:31:15 Because I’m feeling raw and angry in a way because because I want success
0:31:21 And I’m not getting it and so I’m willing to try things that I haven’t tried before and that’s kind of key
0:31:24 And in a way having gone to DH Blair, I’ve burned my bridges
0:31:27 I can’t go back into all sorts of
0:31:32 Career choices where if I’d not gone to DH Blair, they would have had me so in a way
0:31:38 I’m kind of desperate as well and with this idea. Well, you know a thousand notes a year
0:31:39 That’s more or less three notes a day
0:31:47 I’m not gonna leave leave the office until I’ve written three notes that basically say I like you
0:31:52 And so I realized that saying I like you feels a little weird and so
0:31:57 You know, but but thank you feels a lot better. So I I think I can do that and
0:32:01 If I leave the office without having done that
0:32:08 It means that I actually don’t want success that badly and somehow if I’d written those three notes
0:32:11 I could forgive myself for not getting success if I did that thing
0:32:16 I think that in a way that was me showing up and I just as an aside
0:32:23 I I see people often their children of friends where they’re not showing up for themselves
0:32:29 And they’re not even trying and I think the worst thing is to fail either an exam or some test that life gives you
0:32:32 Without having shown up. So if you’re gonna fail fail
0:32:38 Fully and honorably by showing up and doing the best you can because then the failure means something
0:32:41 That was my way of saying I desperately want success
0:32:46 I’m even willing to spend the extra X amount of time at the office to write these notes
0:32:50 Because I’ll if that’s what what it takes to succeed then I’ll do it
0:32:55 And if I find something better to do I’ll do that but for now leaving the office
0:32:57 that’s what I can do and
0:33:00 Actually, funnily enough, I remember in one conversation with Whitney Tilson
0:33:03 He was like guy, you know, all of my friends are telling me you’re writing notes
0:33:07 It’s like the thing really think that’s gonna get you anywhere in life
0:33:11 It was kind of like kind of ridiculous and for some reason again, I said to myself
0:33:18 I don’t mind looking like I’m a fool and I think many people inhibit themselves because they’re afraid of looking a fool
0:33:21 I really don’t mind looking at least at the time. I didn’t so
0:33:28 I didn’t stop me from doing it and I just wrote endless thank you notes to people and even better or often better is
0:33:31 To send them something that you know will interest them now
0:33:35 It can you can end up spending a lot of money if you’re sending them each an expensive book for example
0:33:41 But it might have been a printout of a transcript and I realized that actually often whatever
0:33:48 I’m sending them. I really didn’t care genuinely about the people I was writing to I was doing it because I was going through the motions in a way
0:33:50 I was faking it so then you know
0:33:56 I’m writing no to XYZ person and I actually take the time to think about them a little bit and I realized that I
0:34:01 The act of writing the note changed my insides made me care about them a little more
0:34:06 So I was actually becoming more caring through the act of writing the note and this idea that
0:34:11 Yes, sometimes you don’t have to feel it to do it do it and you’ll feel it later, and that’s absolutely fine
0:34:15 And that’s a huge point right there. I just want to add one thing
0:34:21 Almost going back to the Tony Robinson. He tells the story when you’re at the event. He’s like, okay
0:34:27 We’re gonna play a game look around the room find everything red find as many red things as you can
0:34:31 Winner is whoever finds the most red things look around look for red look for red look for red look for red
0:34:33 And all of a sudden you’re looking around you see that the fire alarm is ready
0:34:36 You’ve seen that the chair is red you see that the screen has a little red thing on it
0:34:39 You see red everywhere says all right close your eyes and
0:34:45 Tell me about something blue and everybody laughs and it turns out we didn’t see anything blue
0:34:48 We were so fixated on red and he said there’s a part of your brain
0:34:52 He’s a he’s a there’s a couple things there number one when I told you to look for red
0:34:55 You suddenly saw so much red when I told you to look for blue
0:34:59 When I asked you what was blue you saw none because you were only looking for red
0:35:02 Yeah, and he says there’s a part of your brain called the reticular activating system
0:35:05 Which is a it’s your heat-seeking missile. It’s the part of your brain that actually says
0:35:10 Ignore everything there’s too much stimulus only pay attention to what matters
0:35:13 But what matters is you get to program that yes
0:35:18 And so when you’re searching for when you’re looking at buying a car and you’re thinking about maybe I’ll buy a BMW
0:35:22 Suddenly on the road you see that’s that that’s that BMW. Oh, that’s the one with the different wheels
0:35:26 That’s the one with the trunk space and you start to see be it’s not that the BMW’s suddenly appeared
0:35:27 It’s they were always there
0:35:32 But your brain had called them white noise before and now you’ve told your brain BMW’s matter pay attention
0:35:36 And so there’s it how do you use this part of your brain to your advantage?
0:35:38 And so what you’re doing with the notes where you said?
0:35:42 Doing it will cause the feeling later, which is if I’m going to write the thank you notes
0:35:45 That means I need to thank them for something so I need to pay attention
0:35:52 To something that I appreciate about them or I need to pay attention to what they’re interested in in order to give them this note
0:35:57 And you become suddenly a more caring interested person because of that gratitude works the same way
0:36:01 I know I had this practice where every night I would say, you know, just be my wife
0:36:04 We would say all right. Let’s give me three things three things. You’re grateful for today moments of the day
0:36:08 You were grateful for it. So not like I’m grateful for my family’s health this abstract concept
0:36:10 but like what was a moment of the day and
0:36:15 At first it’s really hard and you realize man. I’m such a jerk. I don’t even pay attention to my life
0:36:19 You know, how could it be that I just went through the motion state had nothing
0:36:23 You do that two or three days and suddenly during the day you start stashing it
0:36:25 You said, oh, that’ll be one of my three things for the night
0:36:29 You train your brain to look for things to be grateful for which makes you a more grateful person
0:36:33 And that was such a huge unlock for me and what you’re describing is
0:36:39 essentially a similar phenomenon a similar pattern where the act of writing the notes caused you to then
0:36:42 Be more interested in other people and genuinely care about them
0:36:48 And you know what’s interesting for me is there was a certain point at which I would get interns to do just that
0:36:53 I just say your job as an intern is just to get a list together of people that you care about
0:36:56 because they’re and and write notes to them and
0:37:02 You know, I don’t think that there’s even one case or none comes to my mind right now
0:37:09 Where where somebody really implemented it and I kind of like really frustrating for me because it’s not a zero-sum game
0:37:14 It’s not like if you do it and somebody else we know does it it may diminishes us
0:37:19 It actually enhances all of our lives and it’s not clear to me exactly why some people end up doing it
0:37:21 And some people don’t I would tell you that
0:37:26 What just blows me away is that you know Warren Buffett gets this
0:37:32 Warren Buffett is giving gifts to me. He’s writing the equivalent. Thankfully notes to me
0:37:36 I’m a nothing in his life. He’s not doing it every day. He’s not necessarily doing it every year
0:37:42 But every two or three years I he sends me something or does something via his assistant like Warren Buffett is doing that
0:37:46 You know wait really so Warren Buffett sends you something like a thank you know or something
0:37:51 I mean, it’s like a holiday card, but but here’s the I mean, I I don’t know if we’re doing video
0:37:56 I could I have one that I to video out so so do you let me step away for a second and pull it out
0:38:02 I demonstrate it bear with me because of course I have it up on my wall. Hang on a sec. So Warren
0:38:06 This is I don’t know how many years after I’ve met him not right away. That’s for sure
0:38:12 I get a holiday card from Warren in the post and I’m just gonna put it up for a second
0:38:18 And then we can talk about it because it is so clever. So let’s see
0:38:22 You can see that and
0:38:27 Yeah, Warren Santa and I can’t read the text but I see one with Warren Buffett with Santa
0:38:32 so of course I framed it but the key there is is that it’s a card which is I mean
0:38:37 I’m gonna look at it now because I need to remember so it’s 2011 and he’s crossed out Geico
0:38:44 Burlington Northern Santa Fe and McLean and then it’s like companies that he maybe would want to buy
0:38:51 It’s got eggs on mobile Wells Fargo Google and you know, there’s Warren next to Father Christmas there and
0:38:57 But here’s the key. So he says either I finish this just by Christmas or I occupy the North Pole
0:38:59 Probably it was around the time of Occupy Wall Street
0:39:04 But then what he’s done is he’s written he’s scrolled on it
0:39:09 And I don’t know how many of these he’s does every year guy. Happy holidays. I enjoyed your
0:39:14 2010 report Warren and so, you know
0:39:16 What it would you know
0:39:21 So the key there is is like the other side’s got nothing on it because who cares because you know, maybe guys gonna frame it
0:39:27 You don’t want to put anything on that side and and what makes it special is he’s personalized it to me
0:39:32 and he’s understood that that is an enormous gift to the people who receive it and
0:39:36 You know, I you literally this is a this is a Monash expression
0:39:41 You when I received that you needed to peel me off the floor. I mean I was
0:39:48 But and what am I to him, you know, really of all the people that he knows
0:39:55 What am I to him? He’s had dinner parties with Catherine Graham in Washington where he’s met heads of state and
0:40:01 head of the Commerce Department and the head of the Center of the Federal Reserve and now he’s sending that to me and
0:40:07 He’s doing reciprocation. He’s giving out the equivalent of sweets. He’s given out the equivalent of a thank-you note
0:40:13 He’s showing this individual that he in some way just cares about me as an individual
0:40:16 And he’s doing it in a pretty efficient way for him
0:40:21 And in a way that allows me to get all excited and tell Sean Puri all about it in a podcast
0:40:27 I mean, he so he understands this stuff. He freaking understands this stuff. Well, I think that’s amazing
0:40:32 I did not know that he does that. So that’s very cool. We had a guy Jesse Itzler come on the podcast and he does this as well
0:40:36 He I think he hand writes thousands of cards every year. He talks about the value in this
0:40:41 But you know, I need to hear ideas four or five times before I actually go implement them
0:40:46 I’ll tell you another similar story. That’s like this. We met a guy who knew Kobe Bryant
0:40:52 He trained Kobe’s daughter before she passed away in that in that, you know
0:40:59 The tragic accident and I was like telling me some Kobe stories and if you read on the internet all Kobe stories are like Nike Kobe
0:41:03 They’re black Mamba Kobe, which is basically about this ruthless competitor
0:41:06 Hard work kind of an asshole on the court
0:41:09 But like, you know, for the right reasons and that was the brand there
0:41:13 But this guy who actually knew Kobe told me like a different side
0:41:17 He’s like and he’s like Kobe would call my mom on her birthday. He’s like who am I the same thing who am I to him?
0:41:22 Unbelievable that he would FaceTime my mom on her birthday. I don’t know how he even knew her birthday
0:41:24 I don’t know how he did it but like from that day forth, you know
0:41:28 My mom was the biggest Kobe Bryant fan in the world another guy mentioned the same thing
0:41:33 He said he told this story and I’ll give you the short version which is he goes to this pickup game
0:41:37 He plays with Kobe and the guy plays terrible and Kobe’s like come on man. Are you gonna make a shot?
0:41:42 Oh, you know, what’s going on? He’s joking with him and the guy says hey, man. Hey, man, I’m a volume shooter
0:41:45 I need to take lots of shots. Okay, it’s not about making you know a high percentage
0:41:52 I’m a volume shooter and so Kobe laugh and you know a month later they the guy comes in the gym Kobe’s playing and
0:41:54 Kobe turns
0:41:59 Sorry, Kobe’s playing in his game. This guy’s helping out on the side. Eventually this guy’s leaving and
0:42:04 Kobe says hey man volume. You’re just gonna leave without saying bye and
0:42:07 The guy’s like, oh, I didn’t even want to bother Kobe. That’s why I didn’t say bye
0:42:13 He’s like I couldn’t believe that this guy a stop me to say bye and be remember that thing about me and
0:42:20 The trainer asked Kobe. He’s like Kobe like you have you’re amazing with people’s names or remembering like one thing about them
0:42:24 You know, why is that and he said well, you know feels good in the moment, right?
0:42:26 But but beyond that he’s like
0:42:30 Look, this will be the only five seconds. I maybe will ever interact with this person
0:42:35 But for the rest of their lives, they’re gonna tell everybody they know they might tell 3,000 people over the next
0:42:37 You know the rest of their life
0:42:42 About Kobe Bryant and he’s like so it’s so simple for so lightweight for me. It’s nothing for me, right?
0:42:46 It cost me almost nothing and yet for them it could be a huge payoff and
0:42:51 That they will go and tell the world about, you know, this amazing interaction they had so it’s only five seconds for me
0:42:55 But it might last years down the road. Yeah, and it’s same thing Kobe got it
0:42:57 He understood that well
0:43:00 And I think that what’s fun about these things is that you want to make it yours
0:43:03 So you don’t want to necessarily follow the guys be a formula
0:43:08 Well, I also want to ask you about investing because you know, that’s what you’re known for
0:43:10 I want to start with a quote from you that I found interesting
0:43:12 I don’t fully get it. So I want you to explain it to me
0:43:16 You said investing is like being a drunk stumbling around at a bar trying to find a drink
0:43:19 Yeah, and I think you were contrasting it to the idea of investing
0:43:26 Being you’re like a fighter pilot. You just scanning you lock your target and you just you know laser beam it
0:43:32 What do you mean by that? I don’t fully understand. Yeah, so another I’m not gonna get the terminology wrong because I’m not a big bowler
0:43:36 But if you go bowling last time I went bowling every single ball
0:43:41 I bowled went into one of those side channels. It was very upsetting to me
0:43:42 I mean, I was really bad
0:43:49 but then you if you’re a child especially you can get them to put up curtains so that it doesn’t go into the side channel and
0:43:54 You know, it’s this idea that you get on when I’ve the few times I’ve been bowling
0:43:58 I want to hit the kingpin or the pen at the front knock them all over and what a
0:44:02 Satisfying feeling and that’s what you try. That’s what you think you’re trying to do
0:44:06 But actually you’re just trying to keep it off the edges, you know and anything that you can help
0:44:12 You can do to stop yourself from having it fall into those edges where you kind of lose everything is a good thing
0:44:18 And so spend less time aiming for the for the for the skittle at the very front
0:44:25 So spend more time thinking just to keep it on the runway rather than in the sides and set myself up such that when I miss
0:44:30 Really really badly. I’m still gonna be okay. That is more important than
0:44:36 Actually hitting on the targets. It’s gonna be more important for me or for many investors not
0:44:39 It’s not the question of whether you select that winner
0:44:45 It’s gonna be about how you run your portfolio in such a way that you don’t have massive massive losses
0:44:49 You know, we spend a lot of time being impressed with success
0:44:58 Impressed with people who seem to have succeeded whether it’s companies like Google whether it’s individuals like Jeff Bezos and a large enough number of others
0:45:06 And this is this fooled by randomness idea of Naseem Taleb’s that many of those people are lottery winners
0:45:10 They were in the right place at the right time and yes, they were working hard and yes
0:45:17 they had all the attributes but also they were lottery winners and we need to be really really careful when we study success
0:45:22 Don’t study lottery winners and there’s a well-known phenomenon that even the lottery winner
0:45:31 Objectively thinks that they had some input into their success and the famous example there is that you get a room full of
0:45:36 Any number of people and you have them all flip coins and you keep them flipping coins
0:45:40 They will after a certain number of flips be somebody who managed to flip
0:45:46 Nine heads in a row 20 heads in a row depending on how many people there are and how lucky you are and
0:45:49 In interviews and I wish I could actually cite the study
0:45:54 They asked the person who threw the nine heads and they convinced they had something to do with it
0:45:59 So this is just like a really really important phenomenon to be aware of and stay away from so
0:46:04 How do I set my life up in such a way that given the enormous randomness?
0:46:11 I succeed well enough no matter what and that is a is a far more laudable goal than trying to
0:46:15 Ape the success of somebody who won a lottery ticket, you know
0:46:18 You said something in your book that that I like to go
0:46:24 I don’t know what it is about me, but when an idea captures me like I throw my my all into it
0:46:29 Like for better or for worse like if somebody you know, it’s the handwritten note thing, right? Like yeah, okay
0:46:37 That’s the thing then I’m gonna do it all I’m all in on doing that and it sounded like when you got interested in Buffett
0:46:42 You didn’t just read about Buffett or study kind of like his his high level philosophies
0:46:46 It sounded like you went and you ordered the annual reports of
0:46:50 The companies that he bought in the years before he bought them
0:46:55 Yeah, just try to sit down as if you were Buffett and try to read them through his eyes
0:47:01 Can you describe this because I thought that was pretty fascinating. I’d never heard somebody talk about something like that
0:47:08 But there was something in there that to me felt like a valuable practice or an impressive version of really throwing
0:47:12 You’re all into into something versus just tiptoeing around or surface level investigation of it
0:47:17 Yeah, unlike what I did with Farmer Mac, for example just to get back to any part of conversation
0:47:22 I did not do that. That’s what I should have done but didn’t and there’s been I
0:47:31 Think it’s been three times maybe four times in my life where I’ve lost sleep over something where I’ve served like
0:47:34 I’ve stayed up saying I kind of want to do it now
0:47:37 I want to I want to get my hands on anything related to it
0:47:43 And that happened to me with Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway sitting at this Stratton Oakmont type place
0:47:45 DH Blair and saying I want a
0:47:51 life that looks more like that guys and I hate what my life is and then
0:47:56 Doing whatever the hell I can do to get closer to it in any in a way
0:47:59 Sean in a sense of desperation
0:48:04 You know this so the idea of this like this masterful person who sort of orders up the annual reports
0:48:08 And goes through them carefully. No, it’s a sense of desperation. I’m so desperate
0:48:13 I’ll do anything even order is any reports because that’s the only thing I got you know
0:48:17 And so you know I my father kind of says to me because I’m talking to him about this
0:48:21 He says well, why don’t you go and apply to him for a job? Why don’t you go visit him in Omaha?
0:48:26 I’m like father ease. Yeah, I was a guy who was smiling and dialing pounding the pavement looking for deals for DH Blair
0:48:29 He wasn’t gonna be interested in Mr. Guy spear showing up
0:48:35 So I I felt like that was a dead end, but I was doing what I thought were not dead ends and to understand everything
0:48:39 I could about him was not a dead end and and it was absolutely instructive
0:48:43 And I remember the feeling of you know getting with you know
0:48:46 And you had to call up the company and said I’d like to receive some copies of your annual report
0:48:51 And they’d take your mailing address and then they’d mail it to you by by snail mail
0:48:56 and now the annual reports arrive and I’d never seen a company like this two years of business school
0:49:02 I hadn’t seen the accounts of companies like these and those it’s funny because it’s a it’s a well
0:49:10 Worn saying you want to buy companies that just drown in cash. I hadn’t seen a Coca-Cola company drowning in cash
0:49:16 I mean just enormous amounts of money cash being generated way more than on the income statement
0:49:19 And it’s kind of like an embarrassment of riches and to somebody who’s
0:49:25 Looks at the average of all American corporations if you spend your time with most American corporations
0:49:30 You’re not going to see the outliers like a company like Coca-Cola that really is just this
0:49:35 Extraordinary outlier and so it really was an eye-opener to me and I kind of like my
0:49:38 Obviously my my jaw didn’t actually drop as I I was like wow
0:49:47 That’s what this guy looks for. That’s like insane. That’s I didn’t realize I wonder what other companies like this exist
0:49:48 so this is
0:49:50 1995 and
0:49:54 Warren already understood so much because he was just sitting on Coca-Cola
0:50:02 But you know and the story of Coca-Cola is as I understand it is that he bought seas candy and sees candy opened his mind up to
0:50:08 These businesses with pricing power powerful brand that people don’t want to switch away from but yeah
0:50:13 And so obviously I was going down a steeper learning curve than Warren Buffett had been down if you like so
0:50:21 And so you you order these reports you’re reading them. You’re trying to understand what he looks for and then was there anything else that was
0:50:30 Formative at that time for you to develop the mindset of a value investors to sort of immerse yourself and speedrun
0:50:33 This education to try to really level up
0:50:37 So one formative thing sounds like ordering the report sitting down
0:50:42 I think you even described it like sitting down like Buffett like yeah walking like him talking like him
0:50:48 Yeah, the drink that he just sit down with the diet Pepsi or whatever he drinks and and really trying to you know
0:50:54 Sit in their shoes for a minute. Was there anything else that was very formative in your development there? Just two things there
0:50:56 so one is that
0:51:03 Obviously drinking the diet coax is not necessary and great, you know eating steaks whatever but reading the anti reports is for sure
0:51:10 And so when in doubt do it all and then maybe over time you’ll figure out what’s meaningful and what isn’t but drinking the diet coax
0:51:16 Really isn’t that important, but also I think that and and I just get excited to think about this
0:51:18 doing that
0:51:24 Goes to the very very core of our humanity as a species because that’s what we do
0:51:28 We learn from generation to generation by modeling. I mean this matching and modeling
0:51:36 Matching and mirroring an Anthony Robbins case cloning as as as Monish Pabri calls it is a very very human thing to do
0:51:38 That’s what we do. That’s how
0:51:40 girls
0:51:43 Daughters learn from their mothers hunters learn from their elders
0:51:47 So so I was doing something that was kind of natural very very natural in a way
0:51:50 It’s very unnatural for us to send people to university
0:51:57 To have the model professors who don’t know anything about business if their plan is to go out and be business people
0:51:59 so there are two sort of
0:52:06 Insights that I had that I subsequently realized were good insights about what to do the one was
0:52:12 You know, so I can’t get Warren Buffett as a mentor for me much as I would like him as a mentor for me
0:52:19 but if he was my mentor, what would he say and there’s beautiful idea that we often
0:52:22 All of the time maybe we don’t actually need the real person
0:52:26 We need to know enough about them to know what they would say if they were present
0:52:32 And so this idea of me asking saying what would if Warren Buffett was here right now
0:52:34 If he was in my shoes, what would he do?
0:52:41 And I think it’s funny because I don’t want to live a life like Jeff Bezos lived actually at the end of the day
0:52:43 So I’ve never asked myself the question if I was Jeff Bezos
0:52:48 what would Jeff Bezos do in my shoes, but I think it’s just an unbelievably powerful question and
0:52:57 And help me get going and this is this technology of success that I think that Tony Robbins would call it the technology of success that
0:53:03 In a sense, I wish that we could teach it at school, you know, because they because in a way it’s success by numbers
0:53:06 It’s it’s not that hard, you know
0:53:13 Imagine that the person you admire is in your shoes. What would they do now try doing that see if it’s working for you
0:53:18 It might well work for you. Can you give the I think there’s a monish thing
0:53:21 I don’t know or maybe he’d got it from somebody else the the two gas stations across the street
0:53:25 I thought this was a great metaphor. So yeah, it comes from a
0:53:28 Good to great. So yeah, it’s a beautiful
0:53:33 Idea that I haven’t thought about for an enormously long time
0:53:38 The idea is and this is a story I think is in his is in his book good to great
0:53:44 Two gas stations opposite both opposite sides of the road and the guy in the one gas station
0:53:47 you know when he gets a customer he’s made some money he
0:53:55 Paints the wall of the gas station. He puts out some flowers. He makes his gas slightly cheaper and
0:54:02 These are all actions that the guy on the other side of the road opposite him could do not only could he do
0:54:07 he’s seeing the other guy do it right in front of him right in front of him and
0:54:12 The fact of the matter is that in so many cases in life
0:54:20 the guy on the other side of the road who has all the opportunity to do exactly the same thing as the winning gas station just doesn’t do it and
0:54:23 You you come to this
0:54:29 situation and years down the road and it’s very hard to understand why one is so successful in the other isn’t and
0:54:33 So, you know the way I think I tell the story in my book is
0:54:37 I’m sort of sitting with Monish and he’s told this story a few times now
0:54:40 And I’m like yeah, yeah, what a dumb guy on the other side of the road
0:54:47 He isn’t copying any of the things that the that the one with the successful business is doing and and I don’t know exactly what happens
0:54:49 I raise actually
0:54:52 You’re the guy on the other side of the road because here’s Mr. Monish Pabra
0:54:57 I doing all these things and you’re not doing any of those things. Why the hell not don’t be such a freaking idiot
0:55:02 What was something Monish was doing that you should have been simply copying?
0:55:06 Oh, that guy, you know, he comes out and washes the windshields of the people giving get getting gas and they love it
0:55:10 And that’s why that you know that little action is leading to success
0:55:14 What was something that was a little action you could have copied, you know getting around the right people
0:55:18 So something and it’s taking a while for this to kind of seep into me
0:55:23 And now I kind of feel like I own this phrase or are I I’m fully familiar with it
0:55:27 so Monish will talk about a sales engine or a marketing engine and
0:55:33 Maybe for those, you know in a sense, Sean, I’ve never built a big business
0:55:37 I just have a little investment shop with five people. I’m like the little watchmaker
0:55:40 You know and I have a few people helping me make watches
0:55:44 But you know the realization that what I need to do is break down
0:55:51 The actions that I see need to be taken into repeatable steps and then build an engine around them. So that means
0:56:00 Enable people around me not just me to do those things and then to scale them up and do them in a larger volume
0:56:05 So there’s a limit say to to how many thank you notes you can write but
0:56:08 But if you kind of like decide that you’re going to
0:56:15 Generate goodwill in a certain way, how can you scale that up in what ways can you do it in a way this this value x
0:56:17 event that I do every year or this
0:56:24 This value xbrk is a way of scaling up goodwill and building an engine for creating the kind of good feelings that you want to
0:56:30 Create inside of people and so that idea of a building an engine
0:56:36 What engines do you have what engines are firing up inside your business is is certainly straight from Monish power
0:56:38 I another
0:56:43 huge thing huge huge thing for me was the realization that I was
0:56:49 Investing enormous amounts of time talking to prospects and that in a certain way
0:56:55 That was an enormous waste of my time and it just blew me away when I discovered that Monish didn’t waste any time
0:56:59 Talking to prospects basically if you weren’t ready to invest with Monish
0:57:05 He didn’t want to spend time with you and he had an engine of how people were going to find out about him
0:57:10 And so, you know, I really and then the first time I implemented that when I declined a meeting
0:57:15 I said well, if you’re not invested with me, I’m not going to meet with you was huge actually
0:57:21 So I was going to say, you know, I’m there in my office. I’m reading the the poke a code on your reports
0:57:26 I’m saying what would Warren Buffett do in my shoes and then there’s get around the right people
0:57:30 Just find a way to get around the right people no matter
0:57:32 how
0:57:38 Spurious you think that connection is so for me and it really was a great distinction for me
0:57:41 I was so desperate for success. I was so frustrated
0:57:47 I said well, if I’m going to travel to the Berkshire Hathaway meeting every year and that’s going to get me a little close to Warren Buffett
0:57:48 I’m going to do that
0:57:53 But I actually think that my annual pilgrimage and it’s correct wording to call it a pilgrimage
0:57:59 And I can get into if you like to go to the Berkshire Hathaway meeting every year is exerted a really really powerful
0:58:00 positive
0:58:07 Gravitational pull for me in the right direction and again, I think that I get super excited about that because these are not genius moves
0:58:12 They’re not like sort of I had to be so capable so smart all of those things
0:58:17 It’s something that anybody can do, you know, oh, I want to live a life that’s more like the life of Warren Buffett
0:58:21 I’m going to start going to his annual meetings because that’s going to rub off on me in some way
0:58:28 And what’s interesting is I could have in that moment that time around 1995 said oh, but I don’t ever want to live in Omaha
0:58:30 I hate the coffee in Omaha
0:58:36 There are many things about Warren Buffett that I actually not big fan of there are all sorts of things that I love doing that Warren Buffett has
0:58:41 no interest in doing and and I see that stop people and it’s like
0:58:46 The fact that I’m going out to Omaha doesn’t mean I’m about to turn into Warren Buffett. This doesn’t mean I’m about to live his life
0:58:48 It’s still going to be my life
0:58:51 I’m still going to do things that I like to do but I’m going to have that rub off on me
0:58:56 And that’s in my view what a real pilgrimage is all about and it’s about
0:59:04 Regularly getting together getting around people who are the kind of tribe that you want to become more like and that’s just destiny in there
0:59:07 You know, right you bumped into Buffett right at the
0:59:13 Close reader of my book. It’s a true story. It’s just hilarious
0:59:17 So this was the meeting where they were voting in the B shares
0:59:21 There hadn’t been B shares up to this date and I don’t remember the name of the location
0:59:25 It certainly wasn’t where it is now the big stadium or the big convention center downtown
0:59:29 And I’m in the stalls
0:59:35 I’m getting to the toilet and out comes Warren Buffett and he turns to me says he’s just he’s clearly done a number two
0:59:37 Because otherwise you wouldn’t be in the stores
0:59:41 He said I always get a little nervous before those these things before he goes off
0:59:45 And again, this was one of these moments where I just like dropped to the floor as I couldn’t believe it
0:59:49 My hero was just standing there. And look, why did he talk to me?
0:59:51 This was not he was not in the streets
0:59:56 Although I’ve heard stories of him showing up at people’s parties in in Omaha
0:59:59 I mean to be well known around town at least when he was younger
1:00:02 He was talking to me because he felt like he was amongst family
1:00:08 He was with the Berkshire shareholder and therefore he was family. I was family to him and but that was a you know
1:00:13 I’m there dressed in a suit. I’m Mr. New York investment banker. I’m got an MBA
1:00:16 I mean, I’m still got all of that wiring going on inside of me
1:00:22 But that was that was kind of like a what would Anthony Robbins call it? He broke my pattern. Right, right?
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1:01:14 Well, I have a question so you have your fund and
1:01:18 And I think you own a bunch of book be in your fund, right?
1:01:22 It’s like 20% of of your fund and Buffett doesn’t take any
1:01:25 Buffett Berkshire doesn’t have any management fee or any carry, right?
1:01:28 You’re just buying a piece of Berkshire Hathaway if you do that
1:01:32 Why this is kind of a silly question a stupid question
1:01:37 But like if all the fund managers sort of idolized Buffett and I think most would say I
1:01:40 Might not be better than him or as good as him
1:01:43 But I will you know, I will try to learn from him as much as you can
1:01:47 Why would anybody buy anything besides Berkshire if you wanted to do value investing?
1:01:53 You know people say well, should I invest in Berkshire Hathaway or should I invest in the index because they say look
1:01:55 I think that Warren Buffett’s getting older
1:01:59 Buck Hathaway just hit a trillion in valuation and
1:02:04 You know, I think the index might be better and one of the things that I want to say to them is look
1:02:11 Realize that the index is impersonal and you might get spooked out of the index and I I think that
1:02:18 Many people if they buy Berkshire shares and they attend the Berkshire meeting and they they really kind of become closely connected to the company
1:02:24 They’re more likely to be in for the long haul and be in for the ride and so it’s not just
1:02:28 The choices whether to buy Berkshire or to buy the index for example
1:02:36 It’s how do I impact my own behavior through my investment actions and the realization that when we invest if we buy Berkshire
1:02:38 Or we buy the index we buy something else
1:02:46 We’re also making our own bed and we’re also creating the environment in which we’ll be in and we’re in a kind of a relationship with these things
1:02:48 What I discovered when I shorted
1:02:55 Farmer Mac just to go back to that one of those original stories was that I became all twisted inside
1:02:58 I kind of didn’t like my internal wiring when I was doing that
1:03:02 Berkshire Hathaway strengthens my internal wiring in the right way
1:03:09 And and it’s I think is a really important question to ask if I become a shareholder of this thing or if I buy this asset
1:03:12 What does that do to me as a person? How does it?
1:03:14 improve or
1:03:18 deteriorate my thinking and that’s the reason to own Berkshire and
1:03:25 And I actually tell people that’s a reason not to own the index because the index is unbelievably impassional
1:03:31 You’ll you’ll get manipulated into all sorts of things. Well, the other thing I want to ask about is just performance
1:03:35 So you so I asked my guy helps me with research. I said, okay
1:03:43 What’s the performance? Let’s say of your find over to long haul and it looks like you basically beat the beat the SMP 500 by some amount
1:03:45 I don’t know the exact numbers, but sliver
1:03:49 Nine and a half percent versus eight and a half percent or something along the line
1:03:54 Is that right? Like since you started it’s about it’s about 80 basis points at this point
1:03:56 Great and is that by the way, is that net?
1:04:02 Certainly not net of everything. Yeah, that of everything. Cool. So good job
1:04:06 That’s that’s something that’s obviously very hard to do is to beat the index over a 25
1:04:09 We have more than 25 year timeline
1:04:13 So that’s super impressive at the same time in the last 10 years
1:04:18 I don’t think you’ve beat the SMP 500 in most of those years, but that’s a long time
1:04:23 I’m thinking put my putting myself in your shoes man the psychology. I
1:04:27 Don’t know what I would do, you know, they say I would just be running around with my head cut off
1:04:33 Like basically if I over a 10 year period, yeah, wasn’t doing the main thing
1:04:36 I wanted to be doing or you know, and I felt this by the way in my 20s
1:04:38 I wanted to be a successful entrepreneur and for eight straight years
1:04:41 I failed and I remember what that felt like at the time
1:04:49 It was crushing soul crushing for me to to be doing that I wonder how do you manage your psychology in a period of time where?
1:04:55 Your performance is not as good as you want because you seem like a really well balanced well regulated emotionally
1:05:00 you know emotionally regulated guy, but at the same time this is the game you’re playing and
1:05:07 How do you manage your psychology during a window of time like that? So, yeah, it’s it’s absolutely spectacular question
1:05:11 It’s funny because I did a sort of dry run through. I’m going to be talking about
1:05:15 The fund to our investors in in a day or two’s time
1:05:21 And I think it’s like it’s seven or eight years that I’ve underperformed the SMP index in this case
1:05:26 and so I don’t know why it always comes up for me when I think of this is the
1:05:32 question that was asked to me just after I’d published my book and I was invited to give a talk at Google and
1:05:39 The app formers was looking better at that point than it was it is right now and a very smart engineer asked the question
1:05:44 How do you know that the app formers you’ve gotten to date is not luck?
1:05:51 And my answer then as as it would have to be now is we don’t know why I’m just one data point and amongst
1:05:54 thousands of data points and so
1:06:00 You know, you’d argue that 25 years a long period of time, but in eight years of underperformance in that 25 years
1:06:05 It’s also a long time and so, you know, this was already a year or two ago where I said
1:06:08 In the face of other performance
1:06:13 What am I going to do? I’m gonna say this sucks. This isn’t working
1:06:15 I need to strain change my strategy and
1:06:17 risk
1:06:19 Everything that’s dear to me potentially
1:06:23 Or am I gonna say look I understand what I’m doing
1:06:27 Somehow the market’s not rewarding it the way I would like it to be rewarded
1:06:34 But I know that what I’m doing will in the even in the worst possible cases lead to a really really good life
1:06:40 Even if I am underperforming and if I take for starters, you know
1:06:45 My first investors friends and family had never invested in equities before so in that case
1:06:48 Even if they’re underperforming the S&P they’ve vastly outperformed
1:06:55 They’re what they would have gotten in fixed income and all the cash instruments that they have their they’ve won many many many times over and
1:06:59 And I actually got to have I like to call it courage
1:07:05 Where where I kind of realized that the key is to compound and to take make moves
1:07:11 That I know will enable me to compound and if I can end up beating an index then that would be great
1:07:14 but but I cannot
1:07:16 jeopardize
1:07:18 Compounding for the sake of beating the index
1:07:24 I have to focus on compounding and and that leads and and if if you step back. I mean, I think that
1:07:29 You know this this idea of playing the infinite game so many people
1:07:33 Think they’re playing a finite game that they’re playing an infinite game
1:07:37 Explain the difference finite and infinite games. Yeah. Yeah, sorry
1:07:45 So so finite is so it’s a clear distinction between finite and infinite games a finite game is one which has a clear set of rules a clear
1:07:51 Space in which it’s played out both in terms of time and physical locations an example would be chess
1:07:53 There’s a set of rules
1:07:59 it’s played across a board and there’s a winner and a loser according to the time controls or a game of
1:08:05 American football it’s played in American football pitch there and players each side the game starts and there’s a winner
1:08:10 There’s a loser the declared according to the rules and but the thing is
1:08:14 The most important things in life are infinite games
1:08:18 What is an infinite game an infinite game has no clearly defined rules
1:08:26 No clearly defined game space no clearly defined time when it begins and ends and one of my favorite examples for an infinite game
1:08:33 Was the Cold War the Cold War was fought across many battle fronts, whether it was the Southeast Asia or the you know
1:08:36 building nuclear missiles or
1:08:41 Rivalry between the superpowers and all sorts of ways it didn’t not really clear exactly when it started and
1:08:44 Here’s the thing and it played itself
1:08:47 Multiple rules multiple places
1:08:53 In the infinite game, you don’t really win or lose usually one or more of the players
1:08:58 Just decides to drop out in the case of Russia Russia kind of in a way imploded and dropped out of it
1:09:05 What’s the most important point the key the key mistake that we make so often in life is we think we’re playing a finite game
1:09:07 When we’re playing an infinite game
1:09:09 Life is an infinite game
1:09:14 Investing is an infinite game. So how many people I would tell you
1:09:20 Out of I don’t know how many funds that were around at the time that I started how many around today
1:09:27 And it’s like less than two percent now some of the people left that game of investing
1:09:34 Because they actually were utterly superb made enormous amounts of money and decided to go and do something else a famous example
1:09:37 Of that is Nick sleep. He’s in William Green’s book and
1:09:41 so that those people there are those people but I
1:09:47 Did a study of this about ten years ago and there was a lipper database where I could look up all the funds around at the time
1:09:54 They don’t really give their reasons for dropping out if we because but in many cases it because they had an
1:09:58 Implosion of one kind or another and so you don’t want to be the guy who implodes
1:10:04 Well, I mean I enjoy listening because I think what’s cool about your mindset and is very different than the environment that I live in
1:10:10 Which is you know, I’ve lived in Silicon Valley here for the last 12 13 years is
1:10:14 Everybody here wants to be zuck everybody here wants to be Elon
1:10:18 Everybody here wants to be in your case. It would be Buffett, right?
1:10:19 and
1:10:21 the venture capital game is a
1:10:28 You win and you get all the glory or most likely you you know, you fizzle out and lose and
1:10:36 My life really improved when I asked myself what game do I even want to be playing and I’ve moved basically an hour outside of
1:10:39 Silicon Valley which helped just to not be right in the center of it
1:10:43 And it seems like what you’re trying to do is not be the next Warren Buffett
1:10:48 Although if it happens if your performance actually happened to be the way it’s not you would be annoyed by it
1:10:51 But your goal is compound well and live well
1:10:56 Yeah, and I think that that is a much more achievable goal that you’ve been able to achieve
1:10:58 versus
1:11:05 Putting your happiness or self-worth tied to some moonshot type of outcome
1:11:10 Yeah, I really respect that about you because I think it’s it’s not gonna get movies made
1:11:14 It’s not gonna get articles written about you. You’re not gonna be in the cover of Forbes with that attitude
1:11:18 But those are the people who you know the guy swimming in the lake happily
1:11:25 You know with his kids who’s living well and gets to do what they enjoy every day reading and writing and talking and
1:11:30 to me that is a life well lived and I had to almost deprogram myself from
1:11:37 The media I was consuming which was kind of shaping me to want something that I didn’t really want especially once I knew
1:11:43 The odds of success in that game and so yeah, it really helped me to shift my thinking that way
1:11:45 So, you know, you’re a good example of that for me
1:11:51 If I do the same contemplated action given the same set of circumstances throughout the rest of my life
1:11:54 How’s it gonna turn out? So there’s this sort of like just this once
1:11:59 Just this one’s do this. Just just this once get blind drunk just this once
1:12:03 drop out of an airplane without a parachute because it’ll be fun and
1:12:10 Just to ask the question and for me for example, just take this meeting just help this person just give this person a
1:12:12 an internship and
1:12:20 I think that something that is helping me to say no more often to those things to say well if I in every time
1:12:24 I’m faced with these circumstances. I say yes to this how all my life look and
1:12:27 If every time I’m faced with these circumstances
1:12:32 I say no how all my life look and it makes it far easier to come to a quick
1:12:37 No, and an understandable no where I can say to the other person. Look, I’m sure you can understand
1:12:42 I can’t say yes to this and I’m sure you can understand because if I did here would be the consequences
1:12:48 And so and I think that that’s a huge part of war and what Buffett’s wisdom never ever fall for the just this once
1:12:50 another one of those is
1:12:53 if everybody in the world
1:12:58 Did this contemplated thing that I’m contemplating on doing
1:13:03 What would the world look like and I think that a world in which everybody is trying to be zuck is utterly miserable
1:13:11 Really really miserable by contrast a world where everybody is writing their own story a world in which everybody is trying to
1:13:13 Discover some a new scientific discovery
1:13:20 That is a really really beautiful world and it’s possible. It’s really possible, you know
1:13:25 so I’m I’m doing a sort of part-time a history degree for fun and
1:13:31 So I’ve been thinking quite a bit about empires, you know and and we kind of like I think the way though
1:13:36 We feel today across the planet is that empires ought to be a thing of the past
1:13:38 There was a period when empires were built
1:13:44 We don’t want to build empires like the Roman Empire or the Persian Empire or many different empires that were around
1:13:48 Do we you know, we could imagine a world where every man
1:13:55 Every every working person is doing the equivalent of being a watchmaker or a novelist. Why does it have to be on a grand scale?
1:14:02 You know, so long as the work that you’re doing is satisfying and you’re creating something that that is of beauty of as worth
1:14:06 It has its worth in itself. Isn’t that a more beautiful world actually?
1:14:11 Yeah, that’s a it’s an interesting point because also the other side is true, too
1:14:14 Which is if nobody was zuck if nobody was Elon
1:14:19 Then we would also have a problem and so I think the answer isn’t be one way or the other
1:14:24 But like you just said what what is the satisfying version of life for you?
1:14:29 And if you could figure out that answer for yourself and then just act in accordance with that
1:14:33 That’s really powerful. I think for somebody like Elon this this is the satisfying version of life for him
1:14:37 I don’t think he would be satisfied doing what I’m doing or what you’re doing
1:14:42 And so I think we need that sort of the ecosystem has to have that diversity in order for it to work
1:14:47 I think it’s a great point. You just said like this is almost like this action in the limit
1:14:52 You know, if every time I was in the circumstance, I did this thing if every time I was craving chips
1:14:59 I ate chips. Where does that lead me? If everybody did this action if everybody just took from the cookie jar
1:15:04 What happens? There’s nothing left, right? And so I think that there is a that’s a very powerful question
1:15:07 That simplifies I’m a big fan of single
1:15:13 Decisions or frameworks that simplify thousands of future decisions. Yeah, and that seems like one of them
1:15:16 We should wrap up with this. Can you just leave me with?
1:15:20 I am a newbie on my what I would call the Buffett monger
1:15:26 School of thought which is around partially around investing partially around how to conduct oneself how to avoid
1:15:32 You know the trappings, you know, what is the the monger talk like the 24 common?
1:15:38 The cause of human misjudgment. Yeah causes of human misjudgment. So things like that. What are the best?
1:15:42 Essays that I should go read if I was gonna go read three things
1:15:46 What would you point me to the kind of the the pinnacle, you know, either?
1:15:52 Essays letters blog posts could be books, but I’m looking for the shorter version if you have them
1:15:56 I’ll give the answer the answer that I think most people want to hear and then I’ll give a non answer
1:15:57 Which I think is more valuable
1:16:01 But I’ll start with the actual answer. So, you know, I think you got to go to the source
1:16:03 You got to go to the Buffett letters
1:16:07 You got to go to the transcripts and all the recordings of the annual meetings, which are phenomenal
1:16:14 And obviously as as you brought up, I think that that poor Charlie as Almanac really is just an incredible collection of stuff
1:16:19 There is that’s not too much and some of it can just be listened to online
1:16:21 But it’s it’s it’s an amazing start
1:16:24 But so there’s there’s the answer which is kind of pretty straightforward
1:16:29 But then what I want to give is a non answer, which I think is far more important, which is that I
1:16:34 Can’t tell you or anybody else what to read because you’re a different person in a different space
1:16:39 Your brain is different. So so people say what can I read to learn about dot dot dot and the answer is
1:16:46 You know pick up 20 books that you think might lead you in a good direction and go through them quickly and
1:16:50 Ask yourself the question once you’ve kind of flicked through and read a few pages
1:16:54 Is this getting me somewhere or not if it’s getting you somewhere keep reading it
1:16:58 And if it’s not put it down, maybe tomorrow will be a good day to read that book
1:17:00 and I really do believe that
1:17:06 We life is too short and our reading time is too short to force ourselves to read things that aren’t giving us
1:17:12 Win after win after win and so if you go to the Buffett letters and it’s not speaking to you put it down quick
1:17:17 Don’t waste your time don’t have that sense of obligation that you’re supposed to be reading go
1:17:23 Go use up your valuable brain energy or on something that really works for you
1:17:25 So what I really want to say is
1:17:29 You know start with any reading list, but start iterating quickly basically
1:17:35 Yeah, I like that that that is the answer. I needed not the answer. I wanted which is good
1:17:40 You have a good quote by the way that that stuck with me. You said I treat my library like a cocktail party
1:17:45 You know, you’re gonna mix and mingle and hop from one conversation to the other and if it gets boring you go grab a drink
1:17:51 I love that metaphor because I also am a promiscuous reader and I just didn’t have the right
1:17:57 Mental model or metaphor for for how to treat, you know this this stack of books that’s here in my room
1:18:01 But I think a cocktail party is a good one. Yeah, thanks for doing this man
1:18:06 This is a really fun conversation that I was looking forward to and I got to say one thing about you
1:18:11 That’s really cool. Probably I’ll leave you just with a compliment, which is I texted a few people before this
1:18:18 That you were coming on I said give me what’s a good story or dug it and I was disappointed at first because they didn’t give me like a
1:18:23 Specific. Oh, you got to ask him about this which is what I’m looking for. It’s a shortcut for me in my research
1:18:25 but that
1:18:32 The way people talk about you is incredible. You’re like a mensch, right like people just have such a high regard for your
1:18:38 Character in who you are as a person to them. Like what’s a brand? It’s what what people say about you when you’re not in the room
1:18:41 What’s a reputation as what people say about you when you’re not in the room?
1:18:44 Your brand your reputation is very very strong amongst people
1:18:50 I respect the way they think about you is is that you are sort of, you know, just such a value giver
1:18:54 So, you know, congrats to you on that that is it showed me something that I can strive for like
1:18:59 Oh, how would people talk about me if somebody asked them in this way? Would they would they do this today?
1:19:01 I don’t think honestly. No, that’s the answer is no
1:19:05 They would not talk about the same way but that became a bit of an aspiration
1:19:10 Well, I’m delighted and that’s extraordinary kind of them. Whoever the hell said that. Thank you so much
1:19:15 I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to
1:19:21 Put my all in it like days on the road. Let’s travel never looking back
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