AI transcript
0:00:13 [MUSIC]
0:00:16 >> Welcome, this is the Hustler’s Guide to Tech,
0:00:18 where you don’t need a degree from Harvard,
0:00:22 or Stanford, or STEM education, or none of that.
0:00:29 All you need is drive ambition and the will to get it done.
0:00:32 In other words, you need to be a hustler.
0:00:33 >> No doubt.
0:00:36 >> And we’re here today with my co-host, Shaka.
0:00:36 >> What up, bro?
0:00:37 >> What’s happening, Shaka?
0:00:39 >> Happy to be here, man, excited.
0:00:41 >> Shaka came straight out the penitentiary,
0:00:43 sold books off the street.
0:00:44 >> Yeah, out the trunk of the car.
0:00:47 >> Oh, the trunk of the car by himself that he published himself,
0:00:49 and now is the New York Times best-selling author.
0:00:53 And we’re here talking to Ram, the CEO of Earn-In,
0:00:57 where you can get paid as soon as you work.
0:01:00 And then we’re here with Vaughn, the hustler,
0:01:03 who’s taking advantage of that and getting his.
0:01:04 So let’s get into it.
0:01:06 >> Let’s get into it, man.
0:01:08 So dope name, I love the name Earn-In.
0:01:11 The first thing that came to my mind was a heavy D,
0:01:13 Money-Earning, Mount Vernon.
0:01:18 That’s the name right there, Earn-In, though, you know?
0:01:19 >> Money-Earning.
0:01:20 >> Yeah, Money-Earning, right?
0:01:22 But that’s like a brilliant concept.
0:01:26 >> Well, why don’t you tell us what Earn-In is and what it does?
0:01:29 >> Yeah, so there’s this problem that people now call the $400 problem,
0:01:31 which is 40% of the country can’t find $400.
0:01:36 And to me, it’s crazy that that happens because it’s locked up in this pay cycle
0:01:38 where we pay people every two weeks.
0:01:40 And so we’re basically holding back their pay,
0:01:42 and then they don’t have our money, so they go to really bad options.
0:01:45 And I came across this when one of my employees at my previous company,
0:01:48 she was going into getting overdraft fees.
0:01:49 And I asked her why she’s getting overdraft fees,
0:01:51 because I thought I was paying everyone well.
0:01:54 The problem she had was that she didn’t mind the next day,
0:01:55 couldn’t wait till Friday.
0:01:57 And so she’d already worked for a few days,
0:02:00 and we owed her money for the work she’d already done,
0:02:02 but I couldn’t get the payroll system to pay her.
0:02:06 So I did a manual workaround and got her the money and did this for a few years.
0:02:07 Then when I left the company, the people who was doing this for a while
0:02:09 didn’t know if I could still do it for them.
0:02:11 And when I was able to do this, their life was so much simpler.
0:02:14 They were paying all their bills on time, no more late fees on bills,
0:02:17 no more overdraft fees, no more payday loans.
0:02:20 >> When I think about it, it seemed like there’s just like a lot of savings there,
0:02:24 like people who don’t get those fees and don’t have to worry about trying to figure out
0:02:28 how to borrow money for other people with ridiculous interest rates.
0:02:32 Especially if you’re from the hood, where you got all these get money now,
0:02:34 but it had these crazy interest rates.
0:02:38 And in terms of money, how much is the savings that we’re looking at annually?
0:02:41 >> So with just overdraft fees alone,
0:02:45 as a country we spend more on overdraft than we do on fresh vegetables.
0:02:47 >> Crazy, yo.
0:02:48 >> Pay money for your money.
0:02:49 >> Pay money for your money.
0:02:51 >> That’s the financial system.
0:02:55 So it’s almost like you’re working to make money to pay yourself to work.
0:02:58 It’s crazy, it’s like a ridiculous cycle, it’s nice.
0:02:59 So Vaughn was good, bro.
0:03:00 >> What’s going on?
0:03:02 >> So what does the application look like on the ground?
0:03:05 Like how do you get out there and make it happen and shake things up?
0:03:08 And really take it to that next level?
0:03:10 >> Well, for me, it happened like this.
0:03:13 I was scrolling through social media, and then this app popped up.
0:03:15 And it just said, get your money today.
0:03:19 And I mean, maybe before I finished reading the sentence, click.
0:03:20 And I had it and it’s downloaded.
0:03:22 And I checked it out.
0:03:27 And then by the time all the information process and it took about maybe like
0:03:31 three to five business days and it started working on my phone.
0:03:36 And I realized what it was, I was like, okay, so it’s tracking when I work.
0:03:39 It’s watching how much I make as I make it.
0:03:47 And then it’s allowing me the day of working to get that money the same day.
0:03:50 And it’s a different feeling, you know?
0:03:52 I told my friend about it.
0:03:54 I was like, yo, you gotta try this out.
0:03:55 And he was like, what is it?
0:03:58 I was like, get your money before Friday.
0:04:02 And then he said, keep it away from me.
0:04:03 And I was like, what do you mean?
0:04:06 I was like, I’ve been using it, it’s cool.
0:04:10 And then his words were, I always remember this, he said, man,
0:04:12 you’re not trepidatious at all, are you?
0:04:17 And I was like, is it me or is it him?
0:04:23 And him is the way a lot of people feel about this type of thing.
0:04:25 Everybody’s looking for the catch.
0:04:26 What’s the thing?
0:04:26 What’s the thing?
0:04:27 What is it?
0:04:30 >> Because Brian, when you took a risk, you’re just like, I’m gonna hit this.
0:04:31 And I’m gonna keep it moving.
0:04:35 And one of the things that Ben and I talk about a lot is how to remove the mental
0:04:41 barriers that allows people to empower themselves and access technology in a way
0:04:45 that really makes them be able to connect with other people but also earn
0:04:47 through their own ability to get out and make things happen.
0:04:50 So to just see the community that’s developing and burn it.
0:04:53 That’s something we talk about a lot about how do you shift culture, you know?
0:04:57 >> Yeah, that thing that you did, it might seem like a small thing, but
0:05:01 to have the ability to go get something and
0:05:06 then start to change your position in life where you can go do the next thing.
0:05:10 Like that’s, and then anybody who knows you benefits from that.
0:05:14 >> Yeah. >> Cuz you’re the breakthrough.
0:05:15 >> Ron, what do you charge?
0:05:17 >> So, we don’t charge anything.
0:05:18 There’s no fees to use the service.
0:05:21 The other area that we’re in right now is where people should be able to get
0:05:24 healthcare even if they don’t have much money.
0:05:27 And I don’t think we should hold these back just because someone doesn’t have
0:05:28 enough money to pay for it.
0:05:32 And so what we said is people can pay us whatever they think is fair.
0:05:34 And so when people are not able to pay them, they don’t pay.
0:05:36 When they are able to pay, they can pay something.
0:05:39 And sometimes people come back and they actually help many people out.
0:05:42 So you have a really strong paid forward culture where people actually come into
0:05:44 the app to help each other out.
0:05:47 >> So in addition to allowing people to access their own capital,
0:05:49 it’s also building a sense of community.
0:05:53 Which most people don’t think about organically when it comes to tech.
0:05:56 It’s like, how do you build community that actually opens it up?
0:06:00 >> Yeah, as far as the community aspect of it, when you actually start using the app,
0:06:05 you have the ability to tip whatever amount you decide to.
0:06:08 And it caps the amount you can tip.
0:06:12 So for example, today was Wednesday and I cashed out $100 for work from work that
0:06:15 day, the app comes up and then it gives you the option and
0:06:17 said, would you like to tip yes or no?
0:06:22 And then another, sort of like an icon or a little animation comes up.
0:06:27 And it shows you, because of your tip, that you were able to pay it forward for
0:06:28 somebody else.
0:06:32 >> So it’s incentivized in a more organic way.
0:06:34 Like kind of like, okay, you see how you help people.
0:06:38 >> Exactly, you know that thing where you go through a toll.
0:06:40 And maybe you have a little bit extra that day.
0:06:42 And so you pay for the two people behind you.
0:06:45 Or you’re getting some donuts in the morning and you’re like, all right,
0:06:47 five bucks for the guy behind me.
0:06:48 It’s sort of like that.
0:06:49 Because when you tip as well,
0:06:53 it tells you based on the amount you tip, how many people you’re assisting.
0:06:57 So if you roll it to $3, the chain will go up to one.
0:07:00 If you roll it to five, maybe it goes up to two people.
0:07:02 If you hit it like at a $9 tip, it goes up to three.
0:07:03 It’s up to you.
0:07:04 You can do whatever you want.
0:07:06 And sometimes I’m like, yeah, I’m good right now.
0:07:08 Boom, get a $9 tip and you help three other people.
0:07:12 >> I think about how most people want to show up in the world.
0:07:15 I think we’re organically helpful people.
0:07:18 And when you can actually see that you really help somebody, that’s pretty cool.
0:07:22 >> Yeah, so one of the other pieces is if someone helps you out,
0:07:23 you can say thank you to them.
0:07:28 And we’ve had over 10 million thank you messages between users.
0:07:30 One of the other things that’s like surprising to me is like,
0:07:32 when I speak with people who are like more from the traditional financial services,
0:07:34 they don’t get why people will help other people out.
0:07:35 >> [LAUGH]
0:07:36 >> Because they’re not trying to help.
0:07:38 >> [LAUGH]
0:07:41 >> You gotta want to help people to understand what that looks like.
0:07:42 >> They’re on the other end.
0:07:44 >> They’re right on the other end of this thing.
0:07:47 So people are helpful in paying it forward.
0:07:49 But why do you think that people want to help each other?
0:07:55 Like what is it about the space of freedom that makes people want to really help each other?
0:07:57 >> So I think people actually help each other out in the real world.
0:07:59 Like offline, that’s what you do is if you’re short of money,
0:08:01 you ask your friends or your cousin for money.
0:08:03 It’s not the way like you’re used to banks working.
0:08:05 Like banks don’t ask customers to help each other out.
0:08:07 But in the real world, people do help each other out.
0:08:10 And we’re basically bringing that into this technology platform and
0:08:11 giving it a lot of scale.
0:08:14 >> Are people pretty consistent with each transaction of tipping?
0:08:16 Or what does that look like?
0:08:19 Is it like every third transaction?
0:08:21 >> Everyone chooses what works for them.
0:08:21 >> Yeah.
0:08:23 >> So it’s different for different people.
0:08:25 The same person can be different at different times.
0:08:26 They’ll be like, how do you have you thought through it?
0:08:28 >> Well, the way I do it is like this.
0:08:33 Depending on how much I’m going to cash out, I know what my ultimate goal is.
0:08:36 So maybe I know this week I’ll cash out twice.
0:08:41 So that means I know that on Tuesday, I may tip $5.
0:08:43 And on Wednesday, I might not tip anything.
0:08:45 Because I know that for the week I cash, it’s $5.
0:08:47 You don’t have to tip every time.
0:08:50 It just depends on what you know you’re going to do and
0:08:52 what you know that you can afford, honestly.
0:08:55 >> As with anything, you have to budget your money, okay?
0:09:00 Because just like as if you in the old system,
0:09:04 you would have to have saved money from an old paycheck to pay for
0:09:06 an upcoming bill.
0:09:11 In this instance, you’re using funds that you would normally expect on Friday.
0:09:14 You’re getting it earlier, so you just budget yourself and
0:09:17 know that you used that money already.
0:09:19 Okay, so it’s just budgeting.
0:09:23 But it’s also allowing you that access to the money in advance so
0:09:28 that you can avoid potential overdraft fees or something comes up with things like that.
0:09:30 So most important is you have to budget your money.
0:09:33 >> Okay, so I just had a question just popped up.
0:09:39 So you’re married, and they’re shared household responsibilities financially.
0:09:41 So how does that work within that context?
0:09:45 Is it like you hit your wife up, like y’all got to take this off to take care of that?
0:09:47 >> Completely did it on my own at first.
0:09:52 Because I knew what the reaction was going to be, so I just did it.
0:09:53 Let me see if this works.
0:09:58 And I didn’t even think it was going to cause any problems.
0:10:01 But I knew what’s saying, hey, there’s this thing, can I check it out?
0:10:02 I knew what was going to happen.
0:10:06 Because that’s what people say, because they can’t believe it.
0:10:06 >> Yeah.
0:10:08 >> So I just went for it on my own.
0:10:13 And then after that, it’s done nothing but assist me.
0:10:21 So it’s worked out, it’s the pay cycles, just there’s gaps in them.
0:10:27 And I don’t think people should be ashamed of running out of your check before Friday
0:10:28 gets there.
0:10:31 I mean, it’s a normal occurrence, it happens often.
0:10:35 And there’s a phrase, I got to wait till Friday.
0:10:36 People say that.
0:10:40 There’s a reason you got to wait till Friday is because you won’t have the money to afford
0:10:41 it today.
0:10:46 And sometimes you miss out on things, and sometimes you incur fees, you end up paying
0:10:51 more money because you had to wait on the money you already earned that you could have
0:10:52 now.
0:10:57 So it’s done nothing but assist us in our household.
0:11:02 And just in terms of access, is it kind of like a limit or how does it work?
0:11:06 >> You get it seven days a week, 24 hours a day, as soon as you hit cash out, the money
0:11:08 is in your account the same second.
0:11:12 So you could be at McDonald’s and you need six bucks, you just take out six bucks and
0:11:13 you put your debit card in.
0:11:14 >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:11:15 It’s instant.
0:11:21 >> Have you ran into any consumers who are just like, you know what, I’m too irresponsible.
0:11:25 I need to just unplug because I’m just going to take out all the money and go to the casino
0:11:29 or do whatever reckless.
0:11:31 Has that user experience have occurred?
0:11:36 >> So the user experiences that we hear are mostly on people are using the app to pay
0:11:40 bills, to buy groceries, to buy food, to buy gas.
0:11:43 There’s that struggle to make it to Friday.
0:11:47 And it’s not because you want to go gamble, it’s because you needed to get to work or
0:11:48 you needed to buy food.
0:11:50 And that’s what people are using this for.
0:11:54 >> And can they pay for these things like within the app itself or do they just go to
0:11:56 their debit card and a swipe or something like that?
0:11:58 >> Yeah, it goes into the bank account and they use a debit card to buy.
0:12:02 >> So, Rob, you were talking earlier about healthcare.
0:12:04 What is your vision for the community?
0:12:10 >> So with healthcare, the core problem is that when you get medical bills, they’re
0:12:11 almost always a surprise.
0:12:13 They’re quite large.
0:12:15 And usually when you get them, your income goes down as well.
0:12:19 Like half the personal bankruptcies in the country are because of medical bills.
0:12:20 >> Half.
0:12:21 >> Yes.
0:12:22 >> Wow.
0:12:26 >> So with insurance, like your deductibles, 5,000 or 10,000 bucks, most people don’t
0:12:28 have that sitting in their bank account.
0:12:31 And so even with insurance, healthcare is not affordable.
0:12:33 And so what we’ve done is it’s really simple from the user’s point of view.
0:12:38 They basically take pictures of their bills through the app and give it to us.
0:12:42 And then usually within two days, we’re able to get them a lower amount on their bill,
0:12:46 a payment plan, and then if there is any financial aid, we’ll try to match them up with
0:12:48 financial aid as well.
0:12:51 And so with over 90% of the bills that we’ve got, we’ve been able to get people some kind
0:12:52 of savings.
0:12:56 And we’re looking for places where there’s some kind of unfairness or inequality and
0:13:00 seeing if we can bring a technology solution to make that place be more balanced.
0:13:03 So this is becoming a platform of community-supported products.
0:13:04 >> Yeah.
0:13:05 >> You know, that’s so powerful.
0:13:09 I was thinking earlier, you know, because I’m, I always think about it, you know, like
0:13:15 what do you teach young people about like money that makes them go one way or the other.
0:13:20 And like my favorite quote on this is compound interest is eighth winner of the world.
0:13:24 He understands that earns it and he doesn’t pays it.
0:13:26 And that’s like an Albert Einstein quote.
0:13:30 But you know, that’s the thing about money that I think so many people don’t understand
0:13:35 is that either you have money and your money wakes up every day, goes to work and makes
0:13:40 you more money to the point where like when you get enough money, you don’t even have
0:13:41 to work.
0:13:43 Your money just goes to work on your behalf.
0:13:47 And then if you’re borrowing money, if you’re getting credit, if you don’t have your check
0:13:52 and you have to go borrow that or put it on the credit card or whatever, then you’re paying
0:13:53 for that.
0:13:57 You’re paying for that other person to not have to go to work.
0:13:59 And you don’t even realize you’re doing that.
0:14:03 And you just fall into this pattern of these financial products that put you on the bad
0:14:06 end of that deal.
0:14:11 And so the thing that, you know, that to me is really exciting is you’re saying, no,
0:14:14 I’m getting my money that I already made.
0:14:15 And now I’ve got money.
0:14:16 And now you have the choice.
0:14:17 You can spend it.
0:14:18 You can invest it.
0:14:19 You can do what you need.
0:14:20 But that’s your money.
0:14:21 Yeah.
0:14:25 No, I think that’s really dope because you hit on a pivotal point, like the culture.
0:14:30 And that’s something we talk about a lot when it just comes to like, how do we shift culture?
0:14:34 And I kind of want to pivot a little bit around just the idea of like what the show is about.
0:14:39 Like how do you really, you know, break through some of these barriers that some people’s
0:14:41 weigh in, especially in a tech space, right?
0:14:43 Tech can be very intimidating.
0:14:48 You know, I walked out of prison nine years ago and I was gone for two decades.
0:14:51 So I didn’t know any of this tech stuff, right?
0:14:52 But there was a curiosity there.
0:14:55 I was like, I really want to learn how the modern world works.
0:15:00 And just from a hustler standpoint, I always thought that, you know, guys that come from
0:15:06 the street or come from the communities where street hustling is the norm don’t always recognize
0:15:09 that those are transferable skills.
0:15:13 And as we’re trying to solve problems and trying to empower people, how do we, you know,
0:15:18 message that in a way where people feel, you know, to your point where it’s not like the
0:15:23 skepticism when you introduce some tech, but where’s this open curiosity and, you know,
0:15:28 allow people to create space where they can come in and like get out and go make it happen.
0:15:32 What do you guys see that connection in terms of like, how do we introduce the culture of
0:15:35 technology and hustle technology to the masses?
0:15:41 If I could come up with an idea, it would just be more visibility, more people knowing
0:15:47 that there’s real people using it and that there isn’t such a reason to be skeptical.
0:15:53 I mean, I guess just generally people are scared of this type of thing because I don’t
0:15:55 know, maybe they’ve heard horror stories before.
0:15:59 But I mean, that’s the only thing I could think of just knowing that more people are
0:16:02 really using these things that are out there to their advantage and not their detriment.
0:16:09 You know, as these are assistance devices and not everything that you see on your phone
0:16:14 is there to scam you or take your money, these are real tools that you have now to your advantage.
0:16:18 I think there’s also like some amount of like skepticism or anything that’s new, whether
0:16:22 it’s like with Lyft and getting into a car with a stranger or Airbnb staying in someone
0:16:23 else’s house.
0:16:27 And long ago with Amazon, like putting your card number into the internet, but like technology
0:16:31 can make things so different that you’re not sure if it’s all right because it’s so different.
0:16:35 Like people look at our product and they say, well, this is too good to be true.
0:16:38 Like they’re used to overdraw fees and they’re like, that’s too bad to be part of your future.
0:16:42 Like this is the way it should have been always, it should have always had access to your pay.
0:16:46 What’s always funny to me is that it’s like people on social media talking shit about
0:16:47 tech.
0:16:49 I’m like, but you’re actually using tech to talk shit, right?
0:16:53 And it’s like if you can make that connection for people to see like we’re already using
0:16:54 tech, right?
0:16:57 No matter you’re not going to, that’s just the reality, right?
0:17:01 So why not using it in a way that actually empowers you and helps you solve problems
0:17:03 and make life a lot more simple?
0:17:06 And so that’s kind of like always the thing I’m thinking about is how do we continue to
0:17:11 push the envelope and shift culture and get people to see like these things aren’t as
0:17:16 intimidated as they make them ought to be and that you can dive in and figure out a way
0:17:21 to, you know, either create the next big thing that make problem solving easier or just,
0:17:23 you know, utilize it to make your life a little bit more simple.
0:17:24 Yeah.
0:17:30 Kind of picking up on what you said, Chaka, like one of the things that is interesting
0:17:37 and really the opportunity I think is you have this old system and we all know all the
0:17:41 things that are wrong and all the things that are unfair about the old system, the old financial
0:17:46 system, the old healthcare system, the old like work hours and structure.
0:17:48 And one thing is you fight the system.
0:17:51 But the other thing is there’s a new system.
0:17:57 And how do we get the guys on the come up onto the new system and just not have to protest
0:17:58 the old system?
0:18:03 Cause like we’ve been protesting that system for a long time and like it hasn’t changed
0:18:04 at all.
0:18:09 When I was getting out, I was just like, okay, I got to just figure this thing out, right?
0:18:13 So I know what I control and I can only deal with the things that I can control, right?
0:18:16 That means I got to get my ass out there and hustle and push down below.
0:18:19 So I literally would sell books to anybody I didn’t care who you was.
0:18:20 And I would do it.
0:18:23 I mean, Jehovah Witness come knocking the door, they want to sell a wash tower, give
0:18:24 away a wash tower.
0:18:25 I want to sell this book.
0:18:26 Let’s swap out.
0:18:31 I mean, for me, it was really just that idea that, you know, I mean, I think enterprise
0:18:35 has always been, you know, a part of the culture, you know, like, there’s that hustler ethic
0:18:36 there to eat those, right?
0:18:38 That culture of figuring it out.
0:18:42 Cause that’s what that hip hop culture emerged out of making something out of nothing.
0:18:43 And that’s what I look at.
0:18:45 That’s how I look at technology, right?
0:18:49 I always ask kids this, I say, okay, you know, if you’re on social media, I’m like, did it
0:18:50 cost you to get on?
0:18:51 And they’re like, no.
0:18:53 I’m like, okay, are they selling you anything personally?
0:18:54 They’re like, no.
0:18:56 I’m like, so how are they making money?
0:18:58 And they’re like, I don’t know.
0:19:03 I’m like, it’s an idea and the idea is to really take things and figure out how to create
0:19:04 value in them.
0:19:09 And if you create the thing, then you create the value and you can figure out how to get
0:19:10 that out.
0:19:13 And I think that culturally, what we really would love is just for people to awaken to
0:19:18 the idea that you can get out and make things happen if you just have that go get a mentality
0:19:20 and really dig into it.
0:19:21 Yeah.
0:19:26 And what got me over the hurdle of it was it’s in the Play Store.
0:19:30 And what I think what my friend meant when he said, boy, you’re not trepidatious at all
0:19:37 was he was sort of stating this, which is, I was telling him, you can get your money
0:19:38 now.
0:19:39 You don’t have to wait till Friday.
0:19:43 And people don’t think that should happen.
0:19:44 You can’t do that.
0:19:47 You can’t get your money before Friday.
0:19:49 Even though you worked today.
0:19:56 That’s not allowed because you, Vaughn, are not capable of handling your money before
0:19:57 Friday.
0:20:00 Your employer can hold it for you because they know what’s best.
0:20:03 You can’t take that now because you’re going to blow it.
0:20:04 So you can’t keep your money now.
0:20:07 You got to wait till Friday because they know better.
0:20:08 So where’s he at now?
0:20:10 Does he still think of things the same way?
0:20:11 He ain’t going around yet.
0:20:12 Yeah.
0:20:13 Here’s a question you should pose to him.
0:20:19 You should ask him if he went to the casino and he won at the slots, won what he wanted
0:20:20 them to pay him.
0:20:21 Exactly.
0:20:22 Right.
0:20:23 And just see how he responds.
0:20:24 Right.
0:20:25 Because that’s the reality, right?
0:20:26 If you go to the casino and you like win, you want that cash right there.
0:20:29 Like, you don’t want to wait because you just, you earned that, right?
0:20:30 Exactly.
0:20:34 And so why would it be any different if you’re working and you’re actually put the hours
0:20:38 in to add value to another company while when you add that value to yourself.
0:20:40 So I think you can turn them around.
0:20:41 Yeah.
0:20:42 You also look at what the businesses do.
0:20:43 You go into a shop.
0:20:44 You pay them at once.
0:20:47 You don’t say I’ll pay you in two weeks because you may be irresponsible if I give you the
0:20:48 money now.
0:20:51 The businesses take their money as soon as they give you something immediately.
0:20:52 Yeah.
0:20:55 But as an individual, you’re not supposed to have it and it’s not like all your bills
0:20:56 show up on payday.
0:20:57 Yeah.
0:20:58 I mean, your bills show up at different times.
0:21:01 You should have your money available when your bills show up.
0:21:04 You’re expected to hold over your money.
0:21:09 You’re not expected to have your money early and then pay for what comes up.
0:21:12 You’re expected to hold it from the week before.
0:21:13 So it’s sort of backwards.
0:21:19 And even like, I mean, why should the bank or why should like the company have your money
0:21:24 and be earning on it when you should could be earning, why are they money earning on
0:21:26 your money that you work for that they owe you?
0:21:28 Like that doesn’t make any sense.
0:21:32 Till about two centuries ago, this whole concept of pay cycles was not there.
0:21:36 Employees were paid every day and it was during the industrial revolution that we started
0:21:38 paying people in batch like this.
0:21:41 As an employee, you’d rather get your money before you work.
0:21:42 Yes.
0:21:44 You’d rather pay you much after you work.
0:21:48 And then it’s kind of interesting that now we have a situation where we’ve all accepted
0:21:50 that companies can pay you after you work.
0:21:54 Just shows you how the balance of power has shifted so much away from the individual.
0:21:58 Now there’s an opportunity for technology to actually make that be more level and balanced.
0:22:02 It really gets down to like, who’s running your life?
0:22:06 One of the reasons we wanted this on the podcast is this is the one where you like, okay, let
0:22:09 me take control of my destiny.
0:22:14 And then as we go forward, what are the opportunities that I have now I’m running my money.
0:22:17 It’s like really it’s about taking control of destiny.
0:22:21 Very common use cases to buy gas and say like, lots of people were not able to get to work
0:22:22 the day before paying.
0:22:25 And sometimes that means they would lose their job if they missed too many days of work.
0:22:30 Now they use the app, they take money, buy gas, they have better attendance, better attendance
0:22:32 means higher paychecks actually.
0:22:34 So we see paychecks go up.
0:22:38 People get to like see the doctor when they have a toothache instead of like waiting for
0:22:41 painting and putting up with the toothache for four days.
0:22:45 People can celebrate their children’s birthdays on the birthday instead of pushing back celebrations
0:22:46 to payday.
0:22:51 I was just thinking about from a generational standpoint, Ron, in terms of like, the people
0:22:57 who are most likely to be impacted are people that’s, you know, maybe 40, 50s, 60s, getting
0:23:01 into that space of close to retirement or whatever the case may be.
0:23:04 And how have they been able to adapt to technology?
0:23:09 Because sometimes older generation can tend to be a little resistant, but how, what are
0:23:14 you guys doing to kind of penetrate that culture and make it more accessible?
0:23:18 So ours, a lot of it spreads from like people talking about it to their friends.
0:23:22 And it feels like the adoption is actually much more in the people who are more like
0:23:27 18 to 35 or 40, they’re probably the ones who are more comfortable using their phone.
0:23:31 And so I think we actually, if you were to look at the people use the app, it does skew
0:23:35 a little bit more younger, maybe the people who are use the system just like the overdraft
0:23:39 fees and all the other fees, they’re like afraid to try something new.
0:23:45 Yesterday was the first time I ordered and took an Uber.
0:23:49 I’ve been in Ubers, but I’ve never had the app on my phone.
0:23:50 My wife did it.
0:23:52 Yesterday was the first time I did it.
0:23:55 There was a little something in my stomach.
0:23:59 Even though I’ve been in Ubers and done it, like, but she’s always handled it, you know,
0:24:02 we go to New York and she’s like, I’m like, you got to do it, but she do it.
0:24:05 But I was like, okay, so I got to do this, I got to be a big boy, I got to do it.
0:24:06 And I did it.
0:24:08 I put it on and I was like, am I going to know how to do this?
0:24:10 And then I was like, everybody’s doing this.
0:24:11 Get with it.
0:24:14 You know, and I just did it and I think people just got to jump in.
0:24:17 I mean, they’re also going to be left out because like saying that sounds crazy.
0:24:18 Yeah.
0:24:24 You know, it was always interesting to me because I personally use Lyft, but when I was thinking
0:24:27 about like people’s resistance even to Lyft, right?
0:24:31 I’m like, how different is that than just calling the taxi cab?
0:24:35 You’re still a stranger still rolling up, you hop in the car and you got to decide whether
0:24:37 you want to get in the car and you feel safe.
0:24:41 So it’s just always interesting about how our brains work when it comes to old models
0:24:43 versus new models.
0:24:47 This is going to kind of explode the myths around the old models and really help people
0:24:53 see the advantage of adopting new models of technology and thinking whether it’s from
0:24:58 an enterprise standpoint or the user standpoint, I think if we accomplish that, then our job
0:24:59 is done.
0:25:04 I also think, you know, I mean, the thing that I really want to do is take that message
0:25:10 directly to the people coming up, trying to make the hustle, trying to get to the next
0:25:15 phase of their life rather than, you know, having to run it through, you know, some third
0:25:20 party filter that’s got like their own agenda, but they like the old world and they don’t
0:25:23 want it to change and all that kind of thing.
0:25:27 So I grew up in Detroit and, you know, it’s a factory town and, you know, when you go
0:25:32 through the communities, you see all these kind of, you know, payday loan places, you
0:25:33 know.
0:25:34 And I hear the conversation.
0:25:36 I know people who literally live check from check.
0:25:41 I grew up with it in my family and, you know, I know it’s always been a driver for me.
0:25:45 Like I never wanted that pressure of living check to check, you know, it’s not healthy.
0:25:49 It’s like physically it’s not healthy, emotionally it’s not healthy and it’s definitely not
0:25:50 healthy spiritually.
0:25:55 And so if you can speak to an audience like that, you know, this is a hard working blue
0:26:00 collar town, people working in factories, they’re doing these long hours and they’re
0:26:01 often behind.
0:26:05 They’re often trying to play catch up because, you know, an emergency happens, you know,
0:26:06 they got to get something fixed.
0:26:08 It’s bad weather out there, right?
0:26:11 The roof goat cave’s in and they’re like, oh man, I ain’t going to be able to do this
0:26:12 to a payday.
0:26:16 You know, you speak directly to those people who are just trying to figure it out.
0:26:22 Like what would you say to convince them that this is an option if they’re, you know, when
0:26:24 an open to exploring it?
0:26:25 Yeah.
0:26:29 I think like, I mean, we talk so much about this being like the line of equal opportunity
0:26:33 and like we kind of put the responsibility on the individual to pull themselves up.
0:26:36 But the way the system is set up, so often the system keeps pushing people down.
0:26:39 Well, I’m telling people that there’s no opportunity.
0:26:44 You get like fed that there’s no opportunity as opposed to being fed the opportunities.
0:26:45 Yeah.
0:26:48 And you’re supposed to believe that the system works very well, even though what it’s really
0:26:50 doing is holding you down.
0:26:53 Why does your employer need to actually hold back your paycheck?
0:26:55 How have employers responded to that?
0:26:56 How have companies responded to that?
0:26:59 How have they been like, yo, this is cool?
0:27:02 Or are they like, yo, what are y’all doing with our interest right now?
0:27:06 We’ve been able to make this work as a product that goes directly to consumers.
0:27:09 But businesses have actually started like wanting this.
0:27:11 And there’s a couple of reasons why.
0:27:14 One is their employees are actually less stressed now about money.
0:27:16 Like they’re not thinking about a whole bunch of other things.
0:27:18 Attendance goes up because people can buy gas and come in.
0:27:21 So their workers are actually like more productive.
0:27:24 The other piece too is you’re beginning to see this happen in the market, like Uber’s
0:27:27 paying people more often, Lyft is paying people more often.
0:27:28 You have to stay competitive.
0:27:33 And so we have a lot of companies that now actually tell their employees about us so
0:27:35 that their employees can have the benefits and there’s like no work for the company to
0:27:36 do.
0:27:37 So it’s actually really easy.
0:27:44 Because that is really interesting to me because you’re actually taking the financial
0:27:48 risk and you’re trusting Vaughn.
0:27:51 And so tell us a little bit about like how do you know him?
0:27:53 Why do you trust him?
0:27:56 And why are you able to have a good business doing that?
0:27:59 So what we’re doing is giving him access to his pay for a long time, the entire banking
0:28:00 system.
0:28:01 And it’s still like that.
0:28:05 The entire traditional system doesn’t know whether Vaughn has worked today or not.
0:28:09 And like they wait for two weeks for the paycheck to show up and then they’re like, okay, now
0:28:12 Vaughn is good because that batch process ran in the company.
0:28:15 What we’re using is technology that didn’t exist five years ago.
0:28:19 We’re using the smartphone and things that are in the smartphone to tell if Vaughn is
0:28:21 actually working today or not.
0:28:26 And so knowing that Vaughn has actually worked, we know he’s going to get the paycheck.
0:28:27 And that he’s already on the money.
0:28:30 And if he’s already on the money, then he should have access to it.
0:28:34 But the other, the traditional players don’t know if Vaughn has worked, they’re not used
0:28:36 to that kind of information.
0:28:41 That to me is one of the most powerful things because great businesses are built on great
0:28:42 trust.
0:28:46 And because you can trust your partners, you can do things that people could never do with
0:28:49 a million contracts.
0:28:53 And you know, the fact that you guys don’t have a contract, he didn’t fill out a loan
0:28:54 application.
0:28:55 Yeah.
0:28:58 It’s like quite different from the traditional system where we’ve built this new system where
0:29:00 trust is like inherently a part of it.
0:29:03 Whereas in the old system, it’s like distrust is a part of it, which is why they make you
0:29:05 sign these long terms and conditions.
0:29:09 And every possible outcome is thought through and set up to be in a way that’s advantageous
0:29:10 for the company.
0:29:11 Yeah.
0:29:12 That’s a big thing.
0:29:16 You get people who’ve pushed this kind of generalized idea of like the man or the system
0:29:19 or, you know, things that you can’t trust.
0:29:24 And without running any exploration into those spaces, it doesn’t really foster that type
0:29:29 of relationship dynamic where you’re like, Oh, I trust that this is my best interest.
0:29:34 Even though human behavior, you know, really leads us to think that instinctively, we’re
0:29:37 more trustworthy than we give ourselves credit for.
0:29:42 And I think part of it is like marketing the idea that, you know, technology isn’t just
0:29:43 boogeyman.
0:29:47 It’s really just curious people who have figured out ways to simplify the world and
0:29:53 figure out ways to monetize their ideas and thoughts and in the way that we exchange information.
0:29:54 We’re so excited having you guys.
0:29:56 So this is, this is dope, man.
0:29:57 Yeah.
0:29:58 Super excited.
0:29:59 Appreciate it.
0:30:00 Appreciate it.
0:30:01 Appreciate it too.
0:30:02 Thank you.
0:30:02 Thank you for having me.
0:30:07 Thank you.
0:30:08 Yeah.
0:30:09 Thank you.
0:30:09 Thank you.
0:30:18 [BLANK_AUDIO]
0:00:16 >> Welcome, this is the Hustler’s Guide to Tech,
0:00:18 where you don’t need a degree from Harvard,
0:00:22 or Stanford, or STEM education, or none of that.
0:00:29 All you need is drive ambition and the will to get it done.
0:00:32 In other words, you need to be a hustler.
0:00:33 >> No doubt.
0:00:36 >> And we’re here today with my co-host, Shaka.
0:00:36 >> What up, bro?
0:00:37 >> What’s happening, Shaka?
0:00:39 >> Happy to be here, man, excited.
0:00:41 >> Shaka came straight out the penitentiary,
0:00:43 sold books off the street.
0:00:44 >> Yeah, out the trunk of the car.
0:00:47 >> Oh, the trunk of the car by himself that he published himself,
0:00:49 and now is the New York Times best-selling author.
0:00:53 And we’re here talking to Ram, the CEO of Earn-In,
0:00:57 where you can get paid as soon as you work.
0:01:00 And then we’re here with Vaughn, the hustler,
0:01:03 who’s taking advantage of that and getting his.
0:01:04 So let’s get into it.
0:01:06 >> Let’s get into it, man.
0:01:08 So dope name, I love the name Earn-In.
0:01:11 The first thing that came to my mind was a heavy D,
0:01:13 Money-Earning, Mount Vernon.
0:01:18 That’s the name right there, Earn-In, though, you know?
0:01:19 >> Money-Earning.
0:01:20 >> Yeah, Money-Earning, right?
0:01:22 But that’s like a brilliant concept.
0:01:26 >> Well, why don’t you tell us what Earn-In is and what it does?
0:01:29 >> Yeah, so there’s this problem that people now call the $400 problem,
0:01:31 which is 40% of the country can’t find $400.
0:01:36 And to me, it’s crazy that that happens because it’s locked up in this pay cycle
0:01:38 where we pay people every two weeks.
0:01:40 And so we’re basically holding back their pay,
0:01:42 and then they don’t have our money, so they go to really bad options.
0:01:45 And I came across this when one of my employees at my previous company,
0:01:48 she was going into getting overdraft fees.
0:01:49 And I asked her why she’s getting overdraft fees,
0:01:51 because I thought I was paying everyone well.
0:01:54 The problem she had was that she didn’t mind the next day,
0:01:55 couldn’t wait till Friday.
0:01:57 And so she’d already worked for a few days,
0:02:00 and we owed her money for the work she’d already done,
0:02:02 but I couldn’t get the payroll system to pay her.
0:02:06 So I did a manual workaround and got her the money and did this for a few years.
0:02:07 Then when I left the company, the people who was doing this for a while
0:02:09 didn’t know if I could still do it for them.
0:02:11 And when I was able to do this, their life was so much simpler.
0:02:14 They were paying all their bills on time, no more late fees on bills,
0:02:17 no more overdraft fees, no more payday loans.
0:02:20 >> When I think about it, it seemed like there’s just like a lot of savings there,
0:02:24 like people who don’t get those fees and don’t have to worry about trying to figure out
0:02:28 how to borrow money for other people with ridiculous interest rates.
0:02:32 Especially if you’re from the hood, where you got all these get money now,
0:02:34 but it had these crazy interest rates.
0:02:38 And in terms of money, how much is the savings that we’re looking at annually?
0:02:41 >> So with just overdraft fees alone,
0:02:45 as a country we spend more on overdraft than we do on fresh vegetables.
0:02:47 >> Crazy, yo.
0:02:48 >> Pay money for your money.
0:02:49 >> Pay money for your money.
0:02:51 >> That’s the financial system.
0:02:55 So it’s almost like you’re working to make money to pay yourself to work.
0:02:58 It’s crazy, it’s like a ridiculous cycle, it’s nice.
0:02:59 So Vaughn was good, bro.
0:03:00 >> What’s going on?
0:03:02 >> So what does the application look like on the ground?
0:03:05 Like how do you get out there and make it happen and shake things up?
0:03:08 And really take it to that next level?
0:03:10 >> Well, for me, it happened like this.
0:03:13 I was scrolling through social media, and then this app popped up.
0:03:15 And it just said, get your money today.
0:03:19 And I mean, maybe before I finished reading the sentence, click.
0:03:20 And I had it and it’s downloaded.
0:03:22 And I checked it out.
0:03:27 And then by the time all the information process and it took about maybe like
0:03:31 three to five business days and it started working on my phone.
0:03:36 And I realized what it was, I was like, okay, so it’s tracking when I work.
0:03:39 It’s watching how much I make as I make it.
0:03:47 And then it’s allowing me the day of working to get that money the same day.
0:03:50 And it’s a different feeling, you know?
0:03:52 I told my friend about it.
0:03:54 I was like, yo, you gotta try this out.
0:03:55 And he was like, what is it?
0:03:58 I was like, get your money before Friday.
0:04:02 And then he said, keep it away from me.
0:04:03 And I was like, what do you mean?
0:04:06 I was like, I’ve been using it, it’s cool.
0:04:10 And then his words were, I always remember this, he said, man,
0:04:12 you’re not trepidatious at all, are you?
0:04:17 And I was like, is it me or is it him?
0:04:23 And him is the way a lot of people feel about this type of thing.
0:04:25 Everybody’s looking for the catch.
0:04:26 What’s the thing?
0:04:26 What’s the thing?
0:04:27 What is it?
0:04:30 >> Because Brian, when you took a risk, you’re just like, I’m gonna hit this.
0:04:31 And I’m gonna keep it moving.
0:04:35 And one of the things that Ben and I talk about a lot is how to remove the mental
0:04:41 barriers that allows people to empower themselves and access technology in a way
0:04:45 that really makes them be able to connect with other people but also earn
0:04:47 through their own ability to get out and make things happen.
0:04:50 So to just see the community that’s developing and burn it.
0:04:53 That’s something we talk about a lot about how do you shift culture, you know?
0:04:57 >> Yeah, that thing that you did, it might seem like a small thing, but
0:05:01 to have the ability to go get something and
0:05:06 then start to change your position in life where you can go do the next thing.
0:05:10 Like that’s, and then anybody who knows you benefits from that.
0:05:14 >> Yeah. >> Cuz you’re the breakthrough.
0:05:15 >> Ron, what do you charge?
0:05:17 >> So, we don’t charge anything.
0:05:18 There’s no fees to use the service.
0:05:21 The other area that we’re in right now is where people should be able to get
0:05:24 healthcare even if they don’t have much money.
0:05:27 And I don’t think we should hold these back just because someone doesn’t have
0:05:28 enough money to pay for it.
0:05:32 And so what we said is people can pay us whatever they think is fair.
0:05:34 And so when people are not able to pay them, they don’t pay.
0:05:36 When they are able to pay, they can pay something.
0:05:39 And sometimes people come back and they actually help many people out.
0:05:42 So you have a really strong paid forward culture where people actually come into
0:05:44 the app to help each other out.
0:05:47 >> So in addition to allowing people to access their own capital,
0:05:49 it’s also building a sense of community.
0:05:53 Which most people don’t think about organically when it comes to tech.
0:05:56 It’s like, how do you build community that actually opens it up?
0:06:00 >> Yeah, as far as the community aspect of it, when you actually start using the app,
0:06:05 you have the ability to tip whatever amount you decide to.
0:06:08 And it caps the amount you can tip.
0:06:12 So for example, today was Wednesday and I cashed out $100 for work from work that
0:06:15 day, the app comes up and then it gives you the option and
0:06:17 said, would you like to tip yes or no?
0:06:22 And then another, sort of like an icon or a little animation comes up.
0:06:27 And it shows you, because of your tip, that you were able to pay it forward for
0:06:28 somebody else.
0:06:32 >> So it’s incentivized in a more organic way.
0:06:34 Like kind of like, okay, you see how you help people.
0:06:38 >> Exactly, you know that thing where you go through a toll.
0:06:40 And maybe you have a little bit extra that day.
0:06:42 And so you pay for the two people behind you.
0:06:45 Or you’re getting some donuts in the morning and you’re like, all right,
0:06:47 five bucks for the guy behind me.
0:06:48 It’s sort of like that.
0:06:49 Because when you tip as well,
0:06:53 it tells you based on the amount you tip, how many people you’re assisting.
0:06:57 So if you roll it to $3, the chain will go up to one.
0:07:00 If you roll it to five, maybe it goes up to two people.
0:07:02 If you hit it like at a $9 tip, it goes up to three.
0:07:03 It’s up to you.
0:07:04 You can do whatever you want.
0:07:06 And sometimes I’m like, yeah, I’m good right now.
0:07:08 Boom, get a $9 tip and you help three other people.
0:07:12 >> I think about how most people want to show up in the world.
0:07:15 I think we’re organically helpful people.
0:07:18 And when you can actually see that you really help somebody, that’s pretty cool.
0:07:22 >> Yeah, so one of the other pieces is if someone helps you out,
0:07:23 you can say thank you to them.
0:07:28 And we’ve had over 10 million thank you messages between users.
0:07:30 One of the other things that’s like surprising to me is like,
0:07:32 when I speak with people who are like more from the traditional financial services,
0:07:34 they don’t get why people will help other people out.
0:07:35 >> [LAUGH]
0:07:36 >> Because they’re not trying to help.
0:07:38 >> [LAUGH]
0:07:41 >> You gotta want to help people to understand what that looks like.
0:07:42 >> They’re on the other end.
0:07:44 >> They’re right on the other end of this thing.
0:07:47 So people are helpful in paying it forward.
0:07:49 But why do you think that people want to help each other?
0:07:55 Like what is it about the space of freedom that makes people want to really help each other?
0:07:57 >> So I think people actually help each other out in the real world.
0:07:59 Like offline, that’s what you do is if you’re short of money,
0:08:01 you ask your friends or your cousin for money.
0:08:03 It’s not the way like you’re used to banks working.
0:08:05 Like banks don’t ask customers to help each other out.
0:08:07 But in the real world, people do help each other out.
0:08:10 And we’re basically bringing that into this technology platform and
0:08:11 giving it a lot of scale.
0:08:14 >> Are people pretty consistent with each transaction of tipping?
0:08:16 Or what does that look like?
0:08:19 Is it like every third transaction?
0:08:21 >> Everyone chooses what works for them.
0:08:21 >> Yeah.
0:08:23 >> So it’s different for different people.
0:08:25 The same person can be different at different times.
0:08:26 They’ll be like, how do you have you thought through it?
0:08:28 >> Well, the way I do it is like this.
0:08:33 Depending on how much I’m going to cash out, I know what my ultimate goal is.
0:08:36 So maybe I know this week I’ll cash out twice.
0:08:41 So that means I know that on Tuesday, I may tip $5.
0:08:43 And on Wednesday, I might not tip anything.
0:08:45 Because I know that for the week I cash, it’s $5.
0:08:47 You don’t have to tip every time.
0:08:50 It just depends on what you know you’re going to do and
0:08:52 what you know that you can afford, honestly.
0:08:55 >> As with anything, you have to budget your money, okay?
0:09:00 Because just like as if you in the old system,
0:09:04 you would have to have saved money from an old paycheck to pay for
0:09:06 an upcoming bill.
0:09:11 In this instance, you’re using funds that you would normally expect on Friday.
0:09:14 You’re getting it earlier, so you just budget yourself and
0:09:17 know that you used that money already.
0:09:19 Okay, so it’s just budgeting.
0:09:23 But it’s also allowing you that access to the money in advance so
0:09:28 that you can avoid potential overdraft fees or something comes up with things like that.
0:09:30 So most important is you have to budget your money.
0:09:33 >> Okay, so I just had a question just popped up.
0:09:39 So you’re married, and they’re shared household responsibilities financially.
0:09:41 So how does that work within that context?
0:09:45 Is it like you hit your wife up, like y’all got to take this off to take care of that?
0:09:47 >> Completely did it on my own at first.
0:09:52 Because I knew what the reaction was going to be, so I just did it.
0:09:53 Let me see if this works.
0:09:58 And I didn’t even think it was going to cause any problems.
0:10:01 But I knew what’s saying, hey, there’s this thing, can I check it out?
0:10:02 I knew what was going to happen.
0:10:06 Because that’s what people say, because they can’t believe it.
0:10:06 >> Yeah.
0:10:08 >> So I just went for it on my own.
0:10:13 And then after that, it’s done nothing but assist me.
0:10:21 So it’s worked out, it’s the pay cycles, just there’s gaps in them.
0:10:27 And I don’t think people should be ashamed of running out of your check before Friday
0:10:28 gets there.
0:10:31 I mean, it’s a normal occurrence, it happens often.
0:10:35 And there’s a phrase, I got to wait till Friday.
0:10:36 People say that.
0:10:40 There’s a reason you got to wait till Friday is because you won’t have the money to afford
0:10:41 it today.
0:10:46 And sometimes you miss out on things, and sometimes you incur fees, you end up paying
0:10:51 more money because you had to wait on the money you already earned that you could have
0:10:52 now.
0:10:57 So it’s done nothing but assist us in our household.
0:11:02 And just in terms of access, is it kind of like a limit or how does it work?
0:11:06 >> You get it seven days a week, 24 hours a day, as soon as you hit cash out, the money
0:11:08 is in your account the same second.
0:11:12 So you could be at McDonald’s and you need six bucks, you just take out six bucks and
0:11:13 you put your debit card in.
0:11:14 >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:11:15 It’s instant.
0:11:21 >> Have you ran into any consumers who are just like, you know what, I’m too irresponsible.
0:11:25 I need to just unplug because I’m just going to take out all the money and go to the casino
0:11:29 or do whatever reckless.
0:11:31 Has that user experience have occurred?
0:11:36 >> So the user experiences that we hear are mostly on people are using the app to pay
0:11:40 bills, to buy groceries, to buy food, to buy gas.
0:11:43 There’s that struggle to make it to Friday.
0:11:47 And it’s not because you want to go gamble, it’s because you needed to get to work or
0:11:48 you needed to buy food.
0:11:50 And that’s what people are using this for.
0:11:54 >> And can they pay for these things like within the app itself or do they just go to
0:11:56 their debit card and a swipe or something like that?
0:11:58 >> Yeah, it goes into the bank account and they use a debit card to buy.
0:12:02 >> So, Rob, you were talking earlier about healthcare.
0:12:04 What is your vision for the community?
0:12:10 >> So with healthcare, the core problem is that when you get medical bills, they’re
0:12:11 almost always a surprise.
0:12:13 They’re quite large.
0:12:15 And usually when you get them, your income goes down as well.
0:12:19 Like half the personal bankruptcies in the country are because of medical bills.
0:12:20 >> Half.
0:12:21 >> Yes.
0:12:22 >> Wow.
0:12:26 >> So with insurance, like your deductibles, 5,000 or 10,000 bucks, most people don’t
0:12:28 have that sitting in their bank account.
0:12:31 And so even with insurance, healthcare is not affordable.
0:12:33 And so what we’ve done is it’s really simple from the user’s point of view.
0:12:38 They basically take pictures of their bills through the app and give it to us.
0:12:42 And then usually within two days, we’re able to get them a lower amount on their bill,
0:12:46 a payment plan, and then if there is any financial aid, we’ll try to match them up with
0:12:48 financial aid as well.
0:12:51 And so with over 90% of the bills that we’ve got, we’ve been able to get people some kind
0:12:52 of savings.
0:12:56 And we’re looking for places where there’s some kind of unfairness or inequality and
0:13:00 seeing if we can bring a technology solution to make that place be more balanced.
0:13:03 So this is becoming a platform of community-supported products.
0:13:04 >> Yeah.
0:13:05 >> You know, that’s so powerful.
0:13:09 I was thinking earlier, you know, because I’m, I always think about it, you know, like
0:13:15 what do you teach young people about like money that makes them go one way or the other.
0:13:20 And like my favorite quote on this is compound interest is eighth winner of the world.
0:13:24 He understands that earns it and he doesn’t pays it.
0:13:26 And that’s like an Albert Einstein quote.
0:13:30 But you know, that’s the thing about money that I think so many people don’t understand
0:13:35 is that either you have money and your money wakes up every day, goes to work and makes
0:13:40 you more money to the point where like when you get enough money, you don’t even have
0:13:41 to work.
0:13:43 Your money just goes to work on your behalf.
0:13:47 And then if you’re borrowing money, if you’re getting credit, if you don’t have your check
0:13:52 and you have to go borrow that or put it on the credit card or whatever, then you’re paying
0:13:53 for that.
0:13:57 You’re paying for that other person to not have to go to work.
0:13:59 And you don’t even realize you’re doing that.
0:14:03 And you just fall into this pattern of these financial products that put you on the bad
0:14:06 end of that deal.
0:14:11 And so the thing that, you know, that to me is really exciting is you’re saying, no,
0:14:14 I’m getting my money that I already made.
0:14:15 And now I’ve got money.
0:14:16 And now you have the choice.
0:14:17 You can spend it.
0:14:18 You can invest it.
0:14:19 You can do what you need.
0:14:20 But that’s your money.
0:14:21 Yeah.
0:14:25 No, I think that’s really dope because you hit on a pivotal point, like the culture.
0:14:30 And that’s something we talk about a lot when it just comes to like, how do we shift culture?
0:14:34 And I kind of want to pivot a little bit around just the idea of like what the show is about.
0:14:39 Like how do you really, you know, break through some of these barriers that some people’s
0:14:41 weigh in, especially in a tech space, right?
0:14:43 Tech can be very intimidating.
0:14:48 You know, I walked out of prison nine years ago and I was gone for two decades.
0:14:51 So I didn’t know any of this tech stuff, right?
0:14:52 But there was a curiosity there.
0:14:55 I was like, I really want to learn how the modern world works.
0:15:00 And just from a hustler standpoint, I always thought that, you know, guys that come from
0:15:06 the street or come from the communities where street hustling is the norm don’t always recognize
0:15:09 that those are transferable skills.
0:15:13 And as we’re trying to solve problems and trying to empower people, how do we, you know,
0:15:18 message that in a way where people feel, you know, to your point where it’s not like the
0:15:23 skepticism when you introduce some tech, but where’s this open curiosity and, you know,
0:15:28 allow people to create space where they can come in and like get out and go make it happen.
0:15:32 What do you guys see that connection in terms of like, how do we introduce the culture of
0:15:35 technology and hustle technology to the masses?
0:15:41 If I could come up with an idea, it would just be more visibility, more people knowing
0:15:47 that there’s real people using it and that there isn’t such a reason to be skeptical.
0:15:53 I mean, I guess just generally people are scared of this type of thing because I don’t
0:15:55 know, maybe they’ve heard horror stories before.
0:15:59 But I mean, that’s the only thing I could think of just knowing that more people are
0:16:02 really using these things that are out there to their advantage and not their detriment.
0:16:09 You know, as these are assistance devices and not everything that you see on your phone
0:16:14 is there to scam you or take your money, these are real tools that you have now to your advantage.
0:16:18 I think there’s also like some amount of like skepticism or anything that’s new, whether
0:16:22 it’s like with Lyft and getting into a car with a stranger or Airbnb staying in someone
0:16:23 else’s house.
0:16:27 And long ago with Amazon, like putting your card number into the internet, but like technology
0:16:31 can make things so different that you’re not sure if it’s all right because it’s so different.
0:16:35 Like people look at our product and they say, well, this is too good to be true.
0:16:38 Like they’re used to overdraw fees and they’re like, that’s too bad to be part of your future.
0:16:42 Like this is the way it should have been always, it should have always had access to your pay.
0:16:46 What’s always funny to me is that it’s like people on social media talking shit about
0:16:47 tech.
0:16:49 I’m like, but you’re actually using tech to talk shit, right?
0:16:53 And it’s like if you can make that connection for people to see like we’re already using
0:16:54 tech, right?
0:16:57 No matter you’re not going to, that’s just the reality, right?
0:17:01 So why not using it in a way that actually empowers you and helps you solve problems
0:17:03 and make life a lot more simple?
0:17:06 And so that’s kind of like always the thing I’m thinking about is how do we continue to
0:17:11 push the envelope and shift culture and get people to see like these things aren’t as
0:17:16 intimidated as they make them ought to be and that you can dive in and figure out a way
0:17:21 to, you know, either create the next big thing that make problem solving easier or just,
0:17:23 you know, utilize it to make your life a little bit more simple.
0:17:24 Yeah.
0:17:30 Kind of picking up on what you said, Chaka, like one of the things that is interesting
0:17:37 and really the opportunity I think is you have this old system and we all know all the
0:17:41 things that are wrong and all the things that are unfair about the old system, the old financial
0:17:46 system, the old healthcare system, the old like work hours and structure.
0:17:48 And one thing is you fight the system.
0:17:51 But the other thing is there’s a new system.
0:17:57 And how do we get the guys on the come up onto the new system and just not have to protest
0:17:58 the old system?
0:18:03 Cause like we’ve been protesting that system for a long time and like it hasn’t changed
0:18:04 at all.
0:18:09 When I was getting out, I was just like, okay, I got to just figure this thing out, right?
0:18:13 So I know what I control and I can only deal with the things that I can control, right?
0:18:16 That means I got to get my ass out there and hustle and push down below.
0:18:19 So I literally would sell books to anybody I didn’t care who you was.
0:18:20 And I would do it.
0:18:23 I mean, Jehovah Witness come knocking the door, they want to sell a wash tower, give
0:18:24 away a wash tower.
0:18:25 I want to sell this book.
0:18:26 Let’s swap out.
0:18:31 I mean, for me, it was really just that idea that, you know, I mean, I think enterprise
0:18:35 has always been, you know, a part of the culture, you know, like, there’s that hustler ethic
0:18:36 there to eat those, right?
0:18:38 That culture of figuring it out.
0:18:42 Cause that’s what that hip hop culture emerged out of making something out of nothing.
0:18:43 And that’s what I look at.
0:18:45 That’s how I look at technology, right?
0:18:49 I always ask kids this, I say, okay, you know, if you’re on social media, I’m like, did it
0:18:50 cost you to get on?
0:18:51 And they’re like, no.
0:18:53 I’m like, okay, are they selling you anything personally?
0:18:54 They’re like, no.
0:18:56 I’m like, so how are they making money?
0:18:58 And they’re like, I don’t know.
0:19:03 I’m like, it’s an idea and the idea is to really take things and figure out how to create
0:19:04 value in them.
0:19:09 And if you create the thing, then you create the value and you can figure out how to get
0:19:10 that out.
0:19:13 And I think that culturally, what we really would love is just for people to awaken to
0:19:18 the idea that you can get out and make things happen if you just have that go get a mentality
0:19:20 and really dig into it.
0:19:21 Yeah.
0:19:26 And what got me over the hurdle of it was it’s in the Play Store.
0:19:30 And what I think what my friend meant when he said, boy, you’re not trepidatious at all
0:19:37 was he was sort of stating this, which is, I was telling him, you can get your money
0:19:38 now.
0:19:39 You don’t have to wait till Friday.
0:19:43 And people don’t think that should happen.
0:19:44 You can’t do that.
0:19:47 You can’t get your money before Friday.
0:19:49 Even though you worked today.
0:19:56 That’s not allowed because you, Vaughn, are not capable of handling your money before
0:19:57 Friday.
0:20:00 Your employer can hold it for you because they know what’s best.
0:20:03 You can’t take that now because you’re going to blow it.
0:20:04 So you can’t keep your money now.
0:20:07 You got to wait till Friday because they know better.
0:20:08 So where’s he at now?
0:20:10 Does he still think of things the same way?
0:20:11 He ain’t going around yet.
0:20:12 Yeah.
0:20:13 Here’s a question you should pose to him.
0:20:19 You should ask him if he went to the casino and he won at the slots, won what he wanted
0:20:20 them to pay him.
0:20:21 Exactly.
0:20:22 Right.
0:20:23 And just see how he responds.
0:20:24 Right.
0:20:25 Because that’s the reality, right?
0:20:26 If you go to the casino and you like win, you want that cash right there.
0:20:29 Like, you don’t want to wait because you just, you earned that, right?
0:20:30 Exactly.
0:20:34 And so why would it be any different if you’re working and you’re actually put the hours
0:20:38 in to add value to another company while when you add that value to yourself.
0:20:40 So I think you can turn them around.
0:20:41 Yeah.
0:20:42 You also look at what the businesses do.
0:20:43 You go into a shop.
0:20:44 You pay them at once.
0:20:47 You don’t say I’ll pay you in two weeks because you may be irresponsible if I give you the
0:20:48 money now.
0:20:51 The businesses take their money as soon as they give you something immediately.
0:20:52 Yeah.
0:20:55 But as an individual, you’re not supposed to have it and it’s not like all your bills
0:20:56 show up on payday.
0:20:57 Yeah.
0:20:58 I mean, your bills show up at different times.
0:21:01 You should have your money available when your bills show up.
0:21:04 You’re expected to hold over your money.
0:21:09 You’re not expected to have your money early and then pay for what comes up.
0:21:12 You’re expected to hold it from the week before.
0:21:13 So it’s sort of backwards.
0:21:19 And even like, I mean, why should the bank or why should like the company have your money
0:21:24 and be earning on it when you should could be earning, why are they money earning on
0:21:26 your money that you work for that they owe you?
0:21:28 Like that doesn’t make any sense.
0:21:32 Till about two centuries ago, this whole concept of pay cycles was not there.
0:21:36 Employees were paid every day and it was during the industrial revolution that we started
0:21:38 paying people in batch like this.
0:21:41 As an employee, you’d rather get your money before you work.
0:21:42 Yes.
0:21:44 You’d rather pay you much after you work.
0:21:48 And then it’s kind of interesting that now we have a situation where we’ve all accepted
0:21:50 that companies can pay you after you work.
0:21:54 Just shows you how the balance of power has shifted so much away from the individual.
0:21:58 Now there’s an opportunity for technology to actually make that be more level and balanced.
0:22:02 It really gets down to like, who’s running your life?
0:22:06 One of the reasons we wanted this on the podcast is this is the one where you like, okay, let
0:22:09 me take control of my destiny.
0:22:14 And then as we go forward, what are the opportunities that I have now I’m running my money.
0:22:17 It’s like really it’s about taking control of destiny.
0:22:21 Very common use cases to buy gas and say like, lots of people were not able to get to work
0:22:22 the day before paying.
0:22:25 And sometimes that means they would lose their job if they missed too many days of work.
0:22:30 Now they use the app, they take money, buy gas, they have better attendance, better attendance
0:22:32 means higher paychecks actually.
0:22:34 So we see paychecks go up.
0:22:38 People get to like see the doctor when they have a toothache instead of like waiting for
0:22:41 painting and putting up with the toothache for four days.
0:22:45 People can celebrate their children’s birthdays on the birthday instead of pushing back celebrations
0:22:46 to payday.
0:22:51 I was just thinking about from a generational standpoint, Ron, in terms of like, the people
0:22:57 who are most likely to be impacted are people that’s, you know, maybe 40, 50s, 60s, getting
0:23:01 into that space of close to retirement or whatever the case may be.
0:23:04 And how have they been able to adapt to technology?
0:23:09 Because sometimes older generation can tend to be a little resistant, but how, what are
0:23:14 you guys doing to kind of penetrate that culture and make it more accessible?
0:23:18 So ours, a lot of it spreads from like people talking about it to their friends.
0:23:22 And it feels like the adoption is actually much more in the people who are more like
0:23:27 18 to 35 or 40, they’re probably the ones who are more comfortable using their phone.
0:23:31 And so I think we actually, if you were to look at the people use the app, it does skew
0:23:35 a little bit more younger, maybe the people who are use the system just like the overdraft
0:23:39 fees and all the other fees, they’re like afraid to try something new.
0:23:45 Yesterday was the first time I ordered and took an Uber.
0:23:49 I’ve been in Ubers, but I’ve never had the app on my phone.
0:23:50 My wife did it.
0:23:52 Yesterday was the first time I did it.
0:23:55 There was a little something in my stomach.
0:23:59 Even though I’ve been in Ubers and done it, like, but she’s always handled it, you know,
0:24:02 we go to New York and she’s like, I’m like, you got to do it, but she do it.
0:24:05 But I was like, okay, so I got to do this, I got to be a big boy, I got to do it.
0:24:06 And I did it.
0:24:08 I put it on and I was like, am I going to know how to do this?
0:24:10 And then I was like, everybody’s doing this.
0:24:11 Get with it.
0:24:14 You know, and I just did it and I think people just got to jump in.
0:24:17 I mean, they’re also going to be left out because like saying that sounds crazy.
0:24:18 Yeah.
0:24:24 You know, it was always interesting to me because I personally use Lyft, but when I was thinking
0:24:27 about like people’s resistance even to Lyft, right?
0:24:31 I’m like, how different is that than just calling the taxi cab?
0:24:35 You’re still a stranger still rolling up, you hop in the car and you got to decide whether
0:24:37 you want to get in the car and you feel safe.
0:24:41 So it’s just always interesting about how our brains work when it comes to old models
0:24:43 versus new models.
0:24:47 This is going to kind of explode the myths around the old models and really help people
0:24:53 see the advantage of adopting new models of technology and thinking whether it’s from
0:24:58 an enterprise standpoint or the user standpoint, I think if we accomplish that, then our job
0:24:59 is done.
0:25:04 I also think, you know, I mean, the thing that I really want to do is take that message
0:25:10 directly to the people coming up, trying to make the hustle, trying to get to the next
0:25:15 phase of their life rather than, you know, having to run it through, you know, some third
0:25:20 party filter that’s got like their own agenda, but they like the old world and they don’t
0:25:23 want it to change and all that kind of thing.
0:25:27 So I grew up in Detroit and, you know, it’s a factory town and, you know, when you go
0:25:32 through the communities, you see all these kind of, you know, payday loan places, you
0:25:33 know.
0:25:34 And I hear the conversation.
0:25:36 I know people who literally live check from check.
0:25:41 I grew up with it in my family and, you know, I know it’s always been a driver for me.
0:25:45 Like I never wanted that pressure of living check to check, you know, it’s not healthy.
0:25:49 It’s like physically it’s not healthy, emotionally it’s not healthy and it’s definitely not
0:25:50 healthy spiritually.
0:25:55 And so if you can speak to an audience like that, you know, this is a hard working blue
0:26:00 collar town, people working in factories, they’re doing these long hours and they’re
0:26:01 often behind.
0:26:05 They’re often trying to play catch up because, you know, an emergency happens, you know,
0:26:06 they got to get something fixed.
0:26:08 It’s bad weather out there, right?
0:26:11 The roof goat cave’s in and they’re like, oh man, I ain’t going to be able to do this
0:26:12 to a payday.
0:26:16 You know, you speak directly to those people who are just trying to figure it out.
0:26:22 Like what would you say to convince them that this is an option if they’re, you know, when
0:26:24 an open to exploring it?
0:26:25 Yeah.
0:26:29 I think like, I mean, we talk so much about this being like the line of equal opportunity
0:26:33 and like we kind of put the responsibility on the individual to pull themselves up.
0:26:36 But the way the system is set up, so often the system keeps pushing people down.
0:26:39 Well, I’m telling people that there’s no opportunity.
0:26:44 You get like fed that there’s no opportunity as opposed to being fed the opportunities.
0:26:45 Yeah.
0:26:48 And you’re supposed to believe that the system works very well, even though what it’s really
0:26:50 doing is holding you down.
0:26:53 Why does your employer need to actually hold back your paycheck?
0:26:55 How have employers responded to that?
0:26:56 How have companies responded to that?
0:26:59 How have they been like, yo, this is cool?
0:27:02 Or are they like, yo, what are y’all doing with our interest right now?
0:27:06 We’ve been able to make this work as a product that goes directly to consumers.
0:27:09 But businesses have actually started like wanting this.
0:27:11 And there’s a couple of reasons why.
0:27:14 One is their employees are actually less stressed now about money.
0:27:16 Like they’re not thinking about a whole bunch of other things.
0:27:18 Attendance goes up because people can buy gas and come in.
0:27:21 So their workers are actually like more productive.
0:27:24 The other piece too is you’re beginning to see this happen in the market, like Uber’s
0:27:27 paying people more often, Lyft is paying people more often.
0:27:28 You have to stay competitive.
0:27:33 And so we have a lot of companies that now actually tell their employees about us so
0:27:35 that their employees can have the benefits and there’s like no work for the company to
0:27:36 do.
0:27:37 So it’s actually really easy.
0:27:44 Because that is really interesting to me because you’re actually taking the financial
0:27:48 risk and you’re trusting Vaughn.
0:27:51 And so tell us a little bit about like how do you know him?
0:27:53 Why do you trust him?
0:27:56 And why are you able to have a good business doing that?
0:27:59 So what we’re doing is giving him access to his pay for a long time, the entire banking
0:28:00 system.
0:28:01 And it’s still like that.
0:28:05 The entire traditional system doesn’t know whether Vaughn has worked today or not.
0:28:09 And like they wait for two weeks for the paycheck to show up and then they’re like, okay, now
0:28:12 Vaughn is good because that batch process ran in the company.
0:28:15 What we’re using is technology that didn’t exist five years ago.
0:28:19 We’re using the smartphone and things that are in the smartphone to tell if Vaughn is
0:28:21 actually working today or not.
0:28:26 And so knowing that Vaughn has actually worked, we know he’s going to get the paycheck.
0:28:27 And that he’s already on the money.
0:28:30 And if he’s already on the money, then he should have access to it.
0:28:34 But the other, the traditional players don’t know if Vaughn has worked, they’re not used
0:28:36 to that kind of information.
0:28:41 That to me is one of the most powerful things because great businesses are built on great
0:28:42 trust.
0:28:46 And because you can trust your partners, you can do things that people could never do with
0:28:49 a million contracts.
0:28:53 And you know, the fact that you guys don’t have a contract, he didn’t fill out a loan
0:28:54 application.
0:28:55 Yeah.
0:28:58 It’s like quite different from the traditional system where we’ve built this new system where
0:29:00 trust is like inherently a part of it.
0:29:03 Whereas in the old system, it’s like distrust is a part of it, which is why they make you
0:29:05 sign these long terms and conditions.
0:29:09 And every possible outcome is thought through and set up to be in a way that’s advantageous
0:29:10 for the company.
0:29:11 Yeah.
0:29:12 That’s a big thing.
0:29:16 You get people who’ve pushed this kind of generalized idea of like the man or the system
0:29:19 or, you know, things that you can’t trust.
0:29:24 And without running any exploration into those spaces, it doesn’t really foster that type
0:29:29 of relationship dynamic where you’re like, Oh, I trust that this is my best interest.
0:29:34 Even though human behavior, you know, really leads us to think that instinctively, we’re
0:29:37 more trustworthy than we give ourselves credit for.
0:29:42 And I think part of it is like marketing the idea that, you know, technology isn’t just
0:29:43 boogeyman.
0:29:47 It’s really just curious people who have figured out ways to simplify the world and
0:29:53 figure out ways to monetize their ideas and thoughts and in the way that we exchange information.
0:29:54 We’re so excited having you guys.
0:29:56 So this is, this is dope, man.
0:29:57 Yeah.
0:29:58 Super excited.
0:29:59 Appreciate it.
0:30:00 Appreciate it.
0:30:01 Appreciate it too.
0:30:02 Thank you.
0:30:02 Thank you for having me.
0:30:07 Thank you.
0:30:08 Yeah.
0:30:09 Thank you.
0:30:09 Thank you.
0:30:18 [BLANK_AUDIO]
with @bhorowitz @shakasenghor ram @earnin & vaughn ferguson
Hustlin’ Tech is a new show (part of the a16z Podcast) that introduces the technology platforms — and mindsets — for everybody and anybody who has the desire, the talent, and the hustle to do great things. Read more about it here.
Episode #2, “The Hustler’s Guide to Getting Paid” (early, but actually, on time) features Ram Palianappan, CEO and founder of Earnin, which allows workers to access their pay instantly with no fees or interest; Vaughn Ferguson, who uses Earnin to avoid overdraft fees or payday loans — both interviewed by Ben Horowitz and Shaka Senghor.
”Just knowing that more people are really using these things that are out there, to their advantage and not their detriment.”
music: Chris Lyons