The Making of The White Lotus, Scott’s Surprise Cameo, and Hollywood’s Shifting Landscape — with David Bernad

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0:01:28 >> Episode 338, the 338 caliber is used for hunting larger
0:01:30 deer species, including elk and moose.
0:01:34 In 1938, Superman first appeared in comic books.
0:01:37 I’ve often wondered what it would be like to have sex with Superman.
0:01:41 Well, it hurt a lot, said the invisible man.
0:01:47 I made that up myself, no joke.
0:01:51 Go, go, go.
0:01:59 [MUSIC]
0:02:02 >> Welcome to the 338th episode of the Prop G Pod.
0:02:03 What’s happening?
0:02:06 The dog is back in London, he’s howling.
0:02:08 He’s howling, he’s fed up with the weather.
0:02:12 But he’s got a big fur coat so he can handle 55 and rainy.
0:02:13 You know, the weather’s not that bad here.
0:02:18 It’s actually, it’s spectacular in London, a good 11 to 13 days a year.
0:02:21 I mean, those days are just fantastic.
0:02:24 The other 352, not so much.
0:02:25 Not so much.
0:02:27 Anyways, Instrinsland went to Zermatt.
0:02:30 One of the things I love about it is it doesn’t have cars.
0:02:34 It has these electric cars, and we stayed at this place called the Hotel Chervil.
0:02:39 And we had a ski instructor that is a lingerie model and
0:02:42 runs surf schools in the summer in Bali.
0:02:46 And then at night in Zermatt runs her family’s Creperie, and
0:02:52 we would stroll by and see this lyrically beautiful woman making crepes after she
0:02:54 taught my kids how to snowboard for eight hours.
0:02:56 And I’m like, Jesus Christ, this is like a fucking Cinemax film.
0:02:57 Is this for real?
0:02:59 Seriously?
0:03:00 Anyways, how did we get here?
0:03:01 Instrinsland, back to London.
0:03:03 Yeah, that’s where we were.
0:03:07 Back in London, had a wonderful time, tried to ignore the news.
0:03:12 So, America, what the fuck is going on?
0:03:13 Is this a simulation?
0:03:14 We’re not gonna talk about that.
0:03:16 I’m done talking about it.
0:03:19 Anyways, in today’s episode, we speak with David Bernad,
0:03:23 the Emmy-winning executive producer of HBO’s Hit the White Lotus.
0:03:27 My God, little bit of surprise coming your way on the White Lotus.
0:03:30 Little bit of a Easter egg coming right at you.
0:03:33 I’m not gonna spoil it, but tune in.
0:03:37 It is my favorite show since Game of Thrones, which I’m watching with my
0:03:39 14-year-old, it’s a ride of passage for us.
0:03:44 It has politics, sex, geography, magic, sibling rival.
0:03:48 It has, literally, literally Game of Thrones has everything.
0:03:52 I took my son to the beach in Nantucket because his mother said it was time for
0:03:55 us to have the sex talk, so I took him down and said, it’s time for the sex talk.
0:04:01 He let out a scream like I have never heard before of, no!
0:04:03 And just begged me not to have the talk and I said, fine,
0:04:06 then we have to watch Game of Thrones because I’ll give you 80 or 90% of
0:04:08 everything you need to know.
0:04:11 But anyways, I have been watching Game of Thrones with my 14-year-old, but
0:04:15 I’m really excited about season three of The White Lotus.
0:04:18 They bring together something fairly simple, but it always has themes around.
0:04:20 I think it’s The Seven Deadly Sins.
0:04:24 They just do such a fantastic job, and this season is no different.
0:04:25 Tune in now.
0:04:27 Okay, let’s move on to some news.
0:04:29 For the first time, the top 10% of earners,
0:04:32 those making roughly a quarter of a million dollars or more a year,
0:04:35 account for 50% of US consumer spending.
0:04:38 30 years ago, that number was just 36%.
0:04:39 So what does that mean?
0:04:43 More money, more spending across the top quintile.
0:04:46 Now the economy is more dependent than ever on the ultra-wealthy.
0:04:50 When I first saw this, though, it actually struck me that they’re not spending
0:04:53 more because I believe the top 10% control about 90% of the assets,
0:04:57 meaning they have more assets, relatively speaking than their spend,
0:05:01 which means that they will save and invest more, which takes interest rates
0:05:04 down asset prices up, but isn’t good for the economy.
0:05:08 And one of the things I’ve talked about in terms of stimulus is that if you were
0:05:11 to put more money in the hands of lower middle-income people,
0:05:13 the wonderful thing about lower middle-income households,
0:05:16 if you give them 100 bucks, they spend it, which results in a multiplier effect
0:05:18 that’s greater than if you give rich people money.
0:05:23 By the way, the fact that the 10% are now responsible for half the consumer
0:05:26 economy versus a third just speaks to a couple of things.
0:05:33 One, how much money they have, but also a prioritization of experiences over things.
0:05:36 The luxury market has actually kind of gone flat,
0:05:40 but people are spending a ton of money on things like safaris and travel
0:05:43 and private travel and experiences.
0:05:45 I think a lot of this is sort of the yellow coming out of COVID,
0:05:48 and that is people are getting smarter and read a lot of the research.
0:05:51 It says people overestimate the happiness they’ll get from things,
0:05:55 and they underestimate the happiness they’ll get from experiences.
0:05:58 In sum, drive a Hyundai and take your husband to Africa.
0:06:03 I have found that I’m spending all my money or most of my money on really two things.
0:06:07 Real estate in beautiful places, one, because it’s a 0.1% strategy,
0:06:10 and I’ll come back to that, and I want my kids not to be able to avoid me
0:06:13 when they’re adults and think, “Well, it’d be more fun to go to Tijuana.”
0:06:14 But yeah, my dad has a place in Aspen.
0:06:15 We just have to have lunch with them every day.
0:06:18 Boom, hopefully they’re in Aspen.
0:06:20 And two, I buy into this 0.1% strategy.
0:06:21 What do I mean by that?
0:06:23 I think income inequality is only going to get worse.
0:06:26 I’m going to fight it, but I think it’s only going to get worse.
0:06:30 I think essentially the Republican Party and the ruling party is the far right.
0:06:37 They distract everybody with their kind of angry course, anti-immigrant bullshit or whatever you want to call it.
0:06:41 But what they’re really trying to do is create controversy such that it’s a misdirectory.
0:06:45 You look over here and avoid the compact they have with rich people.
0:06:50 And that is a lot of rich people give some lip service to how upset they are about what’s going on.
0:06:54 But this is kind of the bargain that Trump and other right-wing governments have with rich people.
0:07:01 I’m going to cut your taxes. So you’ll offer some sort of “liberal bullshit” foe concern.
0:07:03 But you’re really not going to get in the way of this.
0:07:08 Are you? Why? Because poor you, poor fucking you, your taxes are going to go down.
0:07:10 And here’s the thing, I’m not that worried about me.
0:07:14 Anyone I know in my life that needs access to a mess of a restaurant is going to get it.
0:07:21 Anyone I know that needs legal protection from anyone abusing them because of employee or violation of the rights,
0:07:24 they’re going to be fine because I have a shit ton of money to buy lawyers, right?
0:07:28 If for some reason they started rounding up, name your favorite special interest group,
0:07:31 which could happen with an economic shock here in the United States.
0:07:34 I don’t think it happened in Britain. I do think it could happen in the United States now,
0:07:37 which is feeling a lot like early 30s Germany.
0:07:40 I have the money for a go back to get the fuck out of here.
0:07:43 Here’s the bottom line. Money equals rights.
0:07:46 And the violation of rights that takes place is from the far right.
0:07:49 If you do believe it involves violation of rights,
0:07:53 you’re protected from it if you’re a rich person as long as you’re getting richer.
0:07:57 We are so focused on left versus right, we don’t think about the real problem.
0:07:59 The real problem or the real battle is up versus down.
0:08:02 And that is the bottom 99 versus the top one.
0:08:06 And what we do is we divide and distract and anger the bottom 99.
0:08:08 So they’re not focused on the real battle here.
0:08:10 And that is the Republican Party in my view,
0:08:15 taking money from the bottom 99 and putting it in the pockets of the top one.
0:08:17 And this is another example of that.
0:08:21 But we have income inequality that is absolutely out of control.
0:08:25 And what you see across the wealthiest people is in fact,
0:08:27 they’re exceptionally boring. What do I mean by that?
0:08:28 They all party in St. Parts.
0:08:33 They all send their kids to one of maybe 50 schools globally.
0:08:35 And they all want to live in one of the handful of places,
0:08:40 Dubai, London, New York, Palm Beach, Aspen,
0:08:44 maybe a little bit of LA, maybe Singapore, not even so much.
0:08:47 Maybe maybe a little bit of Hong Kong, but they’re losing people.
0:08:49 It used to be London. London is lost.
0:08:52 And it’s still going to be a place where rich people keep a home.
0:08:54 But a lot of people are no longer living here full-time
0:08:57 because they pass this non-dom tax act,
0:09:00 which essentially people who are very wealthy people,
0:09:04 who are citizens elsewhere, could come here and pay essentially no tax.
0:09:06 And then when the UK, understandably,
0:09:08 and theoretically and philosophically correctly said,
0:09:10 “All right, you got to start paying some tax.”
0:09:12 As they said, “Fuck you, we’re rich, we’re mobile, we can move anywhere.”
0:09:18 And that’s the problem with a “common sense tax policy that’s progressive”
0:09:20 is people forget that they’re very wealthy
0:09:21 and the most mobile people in the world.
0:09:24 And I personally have two friends who are very wealthy,
0:09:26 who have pieced out, who have left.
0:09:29 Who have said, “Yeah, I get that it makes sense for me to pay some taxes here,
0:09:30 but I’d rather pay zero.”
0:09:33 So unless there’s some sort of multilateral tax agreement
0:09:36 and alternative minimum tax across multiple nations,
0:09:38 you’re always going to have a race to the bottom.
0:09:41 And it was back to rich people.
0:09:45 There’s too much prosperity being crammed into too few hands.
0:09:49 The bottom 99 are reminded 210 times a day on their phone
0:09:50 that they’re not doing well.
0:09:54 And then the echo effect, the epicenter of people not doing well as young people,
0:09:57 because when a 50-year-old is not doing well, it’s bad.
0:09:59 But when a 25-year-old isn’t doing well,
0:10:01 it affects everybody in the household,
0:10:04 because everyone is used to their kids doing better than them.
0:10:05 That’s the bad news.
0:10:07 And common equality is going to get worse.
0:10:09 The good news is it always self-corrects.
0:10:12 Always throughout history, when it gets to these levels, it’s self-corrects.
0:10:16 More bad news than means of self-correction are war, famine, and revolution.
0:10:20 We’ll be right back for our conversation with David Bernad.
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0:14:08 Welcome back. Here’s our conversation with David Bernad,
0:14:12 the Emmy-winning executive producer for HBO’s The White Lotus.
0:14:13 Oh, my God. Hello, gangster.
0:14:16 Hello. A little thud to the white to the lotus.
0:14:20 David, where does this podcast find you?
0:14:21 Los Angeles.
0:14:24 After two weeks on the road in Asia and D.C.,
0:14:28 so lost my voice, but happy to be home.
0:14:32 So this show, if I was a —
0:14:34 and there’s a reason why I’m not an executive of HBO,
0:14:36 but if I was pitched on the show,
0:14:38 I’m not sure I would have seen it.
0:14:39 It being this thing has sort of become
0:14:41 a little bit of a cultural phenom.
0:14:46 What do you think it is about this show that is tapped into —
0:14:47 when people ask me, I say,
0:14:48 “I love The White Lotus. I’m obsessed with it.”
0:14:50 And they say, “Why?”
0:14:52 I have a — if they ask me about Game of Thrones,
0:14:55 I can kind of explain why I’m obsessed with it.
0:14:58 And what is it about this show in your view
0:15:01 that just sort of tapped into this kind of zeitgeist?
0:15:03 It’s turned it into kind of this phenom?
0:15:04 I should clarify.
0:15:06 I think if HBO was pitched this show,
0:15:08 they probably would have passed.
0:15:10 Because to their credit,
0:15:13 they basically called Mike White and said —
0:15:16 this is July of 2020 when COVID had started.
0:15:20 They said, “Do you have an idea that you could do in a bubble
0:15:23 that can be on the air in 2021? We’ll do it.”
0:15:25 And Mike said, “Yeah, I got one.”
0:15:26 And he didn’t even have an idea.
0:15:29 He basically had to come up with something in a month.
0:15:31 And they basically sent us off to Hawaii.
0:15:33 They had no idea what it was.
0:15:34 They just trusted in Mike.
0:15:37 And we came back with season one of “White Lotus.”
0:15:41 But I think there’s an honesty to the show
0:15:42 that people respond to.
0:15:45 I think — you know, Mike White, I think, is a genius.
0:15:50 And he’s an observer of humanity, an observer of character.
0:15:53 And I think he writes from a very authentic place.
0:15:55 You know, Mike — we both love reality TV.
0:15:57 Mike loves reality TV.
0:16:01 And I think he’s tapping into what people love about reality TV,
0:16:05 which is every person is not all good or bad or funny or dramatic.
0:16:08 We’re all — you know, most people are all flavors.
0:16:10 And so I think he writes characters in that way.
0:16:12 And people really respond to that.
0:16:16 And I also think he talks about culture and the human experience
0:16:18 in a very real, authentic way.
0:16:20 And not a lot of people are doing that.
0:16:23 Give us a little bit of your backstory.
0:16:24 How did you get to this position?
0:16:28 And what exactly does an executive producer do?
0:16:30 Like, what have you been doing for the last three or four months?
0:16:34 Yeah. So I’m from D.C., grew up there.
0:16:38 And, you know, I wanted to be a producer since I was a little kid.
0:16:41 I came across a movie shooting in a mall in D.C.
0:16:44 called First Kid, The Sinbad Movie, when I was a kid.
0:16:46 And somehow talked my way onto the set.
0:16:47 I met the director.
0:16:48 I met Sinbad.
0:16:50 I met the other stars.
0:16:52 And I kind of was like, this is what I want to do when I grew up.
0:16:55 So I started in the mailroom at UTA.
0:16:57 And really wanted to start at the bottom.
0:17:01 Really wanted to kind of see all aspects of the business.
0:17:05 And I was very fortunate to meet Mike White almost 20 years ago
0:17:06 when I was at UTA.
0:17:08 And I’ve been working with him ever since.
0:17:11 And, you know, my parents don’t know what a producer does.
0:17:13 I don’t think anyone really knows what a producer does.
0:17:16 But I’m basically like the glue guy.
0:17:20 Every project requires something different.
0:17:23 You know, I do a show called Jury Duty that’s on Amazon.
0:17:25 That’s a show that I originated.
0:17:27 I’m intricately involved in the edit,
0:17:29 intricately involved in the production, casting,
0:17:31 all aspects of that.
0:17:34 White Lotus is really Mike’s the genius of White Lotus.
0:17:35 And I’m there to support him.
0:17:39 You know, I’m very involved in, you know,
0:17:42 every aspect of White Lotus when Mike needs me.
0:17:44 So for the last three months, you know, we’ve been in post.
0:17:49 I give notes on the edit, you know, I push on HBO,
0:17:52 whether it’s about music, release date,
0:17:54 marketing materials, promotion.
0:17:56 I’m involved in, you know, all aspects of that.
0:17:58 And really, you know, I’m there every day with Mike.
0:18:01 You know, we start, we start on it together
0:18:04 from the origination to scouting, to casting,
0:18:07 to locations, to hiring of crew.
0:18:09 And I’m there every day on set.
0:18:14 So I kind of just, you know, I’m there to solve issues
0:18:16 and prevent issues from coming up.
0:18:18 When I think about the White Lotus,
0:18:23 there seems to be a theme or a certain, I don’t know,
0:18:25 someone told me that it’s about,
0:18:27 it’s the different seven deadly sins.
0:18:31 What are the creative anchors you try to hold on to?
0:18:33 If you ended up doing a season eight,
0:18:36 what do you think would be the common themes
0:18:39 that would still be static through season eight
0:18:41 that are present in one, two, and three?
0:18:44 I mean, I think part of what makes the show,
0:18:47 even in a certain season, like, you know,
0:18:50 our ratings came out yesterday and the show was up,
0:18:52 I think 92% from season one.
0:18:55 So sorry, from season two, up 40% week to week.
0:18:59 And I think part of that is, you know,
0:19:00 what the thematic approach
0:19:02 and what the idea of the show is evolving.
0:19:06 So I don’t think we’d be able to say what season eight is.
0:19:08 I think Mike is kind of responding to culture.
0:19:12 And I think season one was definitely a reaction
0:19:16 to what Mike was feeling in the moment with culture.
0:19:20 And I think season two, which was kind of this, you know,
0:19:22 it was a bedroom farce,
0:19:24 but it really took on sexual politics
0:19:28 was a response to something Mike was feeling.
0:19:31 I think season three is much darker than the previous seasons.
0:19:33 And it’s a little bit more existential
0:19:35 and there’s a little bit more angst.
0:19:37 And I think that speaks to how Mike was feeling in the moment.
0:19:40 And I think he’s tackling existential themes
0:19:41 and existential ideas.
0:19:45 So it’s always going to feel current in that way.
0:19:47 But what we’re tackling, I think,
0:19:50 is a reaction to something that Mike is feeling.
0:19:52 I’m curious with casting.
0:19:54 Because when I first saw the lineup,
0:19:58 how do you, when you think of a character and you think,
0:20:00 okay, does it immediately go,
0:20:03 Parker Posey would be the right person for this?
0:20:04 Or does she read and you decide
0:20:06 that she brings life to the character?
0:20:07 I would think casting would be such a,
0:20:09 is it an art or a science?
0:20:10 How do you go about it?
0:20:12 I mean, it’s a good question.
0:20:15 I think it’s both, possibly.
0:20:18 I think it’s definitely something that evolves
0:20:19 and you kind of learn
0:20:21 and you kind of sharpen your instincts.
0:20:24 But it really, for us,
0:20:26 the approach from season one has always been,
0:20:27 don’t give in to the temptation
0:20:31 to just cast someone famous or a name
0:20:34 and really approach it with an authenticity
0:20:38 in casting people that feel like they embody
0:20:41 the characters and the traits of the storytelling.
0:20:42 Because really Mike’s,
0:20:44 what’s genius about Mike’s storytelling,
0:20:46 it’s not really their characters,
0:20:47 but those characters are just pawns
0:20:49 in a bigger thematic idea.
0:20:53 And each storyline is meant to resonate
0:20:55 on a deeper level than just a character’s story.
0:20:58 There’s a deeper theme to each story that’s being told.
0:21:00 And so you really need characters
0:21:02 that immediately, visually, you get it.
0:21:06 And they feel authentic to the story that’s being told.
0:21:10 So, you know, 98% of the actors audition.
0:21:12 There’s someone like Parker Posey
0:21:14 who Mike has known for a very long time
0:21:16 and has a body of work
0:21:18 that speaks to exactly what we were looking for.
0:21:20 So someone like Parker didn’t audition,
0:21:24 but, you know, everyone else on this season did.
0:21:28 And I think we go into casting kind of blind to names.
0:21:29 We’re not looking for names.
0:21:31 We’re looking for the right person.
0:21:32 And it’s a process.
0:21:35 And I think the science through it
0:21:39 really is kind of never deviating from those ideas.
0:21:42 Don’t try to get seduced by big names.
0:21:43 Really be thorough.
0:21:46 Don’t rush and feel 100% confident
0:21:48 whenever we make a decision.
0:21:49 It’s a long process.
0:21:53 The casting process is 10 weeks, usually it’s grueling.
0:21:55 Meredith Tucker is our cast director.
0:21:56 Mike went to college with.
0:21:58 I’ve been working with her for 20 years.
0:22:00 So we have a great shorthand.
0:22:00 She’s amazing.
0:22:04 And HBO, you know, they’re great partners where they trust us.
0:22:07 And even if they might not agree with the casting decision,
0:22:09 they, you know, they always give us the authority to do
0:22:11 creatively what we feel is best.
0:22:14 Even in the business for a couple of decades,
0:22:17 describe, give us your sense.
0:22:20 My understanding is that an executive producer
0:22:24 at the end of the day, you’ve got to have business acumen.
0:22:24 You got to understand budgets.
0:22:26 You got to understand trends.
0:22:28 You’re basically managing a small business
0:22:31 that kind of gets funding, starts up and then closes down.
0:22:33 And then you hopefully monetize it.
0:22:36 What do you see are the major trends in Hollywood?
0:22:38 And how has that shifted your approach to the business?
0:22:41 You know, I’ve been in business 21, 22 years now.
0:22:45 And I think for me, what I’ve seen is, you know,
0:22:48 there was an expansion and now a contraction.
0:22:53 And I think the biggest difference between, you know,
0:22:57 2025 and 2023, I would say, as a producer, 2023,
0:23:00 you could go out with a project and maybe it’s, you know,
0:23:01 50/50 it sells.
0:23:05 And you’re going to put a lot of energy and time into that.
0:23:07 And 10% chance it gets made.
0:23:08 It’s a flyer.
0:23:10 And I’m going to kind of take 10 projects out.
0:23:13 Six of them might be flyers like that.
0:23:15 Those projects aren’t selling right now.
0:23:17 So I’m really trying to kind of refocus my energy
0:23:23 and refocus my time on projects I feel 80% about, 90% about,
0:23:24 that when I take it out into the marketplace,
0:23:25 they’re going to sell.
0:23:30 And you know, that contraction feels like just a natural contraction.
0:23:33 There was possibly too many shows being made.
0:23:36 And those shows weren’t working.
0:23:37 And I think there was just a, you know,
0:23:39 it made it harder for shows to break out.
0:23:43 So for me as a producer, you kind of just kind of ride the wave.
0:23:46 I think to be a producer, you have to be an optimist.
0:23:48 I think every producer would tell you that.
0:23:50 So I wake up every morning going,
0:23:52 today’s the day that my projects in a green light,
0:23:56 I’m going to come out with a great idea that, you know,
0:23:57 this show or movie is going to be a hit.
0:23:59 And I approach every day in that way.
0:24:02 And so because I take that approach,
0:24:06 I don’t really change what I’m doing for better or worse.
0:24:10 I really, I look for ideas and I look for writers or actors
0:24:13 that I’m passionate about in themes I’m passionate about.
0:24:16 And that’s how I approach every project.
0:24:20 I don’t really kind of view the marketplace in a broader sense
0:24:23 and kind of try to game the system.
0:24:26 I just try to find things that I’m excited about.
0:24:28 And that’s really, you know, to take it back to White Lotus,
0:24:32 that’s really all White Lotus was, was Mike telling stories
0:24:36 that he was passionate about, casting people he was excited about
0:24:38 and not trying to think about, how do I make it hit?
0:24:41 Or how do I, you know, speak to a broader audience?
0:24:47 I want to put forward to DCs or observations as an outsider,
0:24:49 like, I like to think I understand economics,
0:24:51 so I’m fascinated with the industry and you respond to each of them.
0:24:55 The first thesis is that what Japan did to Detroit,
0:24:58 it kind of Netflix is doing to Los Angeles.
0:25:02 And that is, I read that of the $18 billion content budget
0:25:05 that Netflix spends annually on content,
0:25:08 that for the first time, more than half of it is being spent overseas.
0:25:12 And at the same time, I also read the productions down 40% in LA,
0:25:15 is the globalization of the media industry
0:25:19 the second capital kind of out of America, specifically out of Los Angeles?
0:25:21 Is it as evident as I think it is?
0:25:23 Maybe, you know, it’s a great question.
0:25:27 Again, for as long as I’ve been the business production in LA
0:25:28 in California has been an issue.
0:25:32 I think it’s, you know, not having the numbers in front of me.
0:25:35 And maybe those numbers of production in Los Angeles has decreased
0:25:38 in the last, you know, 15, 20 years, which probably has.
0:25:39 But I think it’s always been an issue.
0:25:43 And, you know, there’s a push and pull, right?
0:25:45 So you want more people to be employed.
0:25:47 You want more shows to be made.
0:25:48 You want more movies to be made.
0:25:50 That requires a certain amount of budget.
0:25:53 And then when you have a budget in front of you,
0:25:55 you want to make 10 movies as opposed to eight.
0:25:58 The best way to accomplish that may be to go to Canada,
0:26:02 to go to, you know, X country that off Bulgaria,
0:26:04 Hungary, Eastern Europe that offering certain rebates.
0:26:06 So you can make more for less.
0:26:09 And so I think it’s a fundamental issue.
0:26:10 And it’s something that California needs to look at,
0:26:15 is how can we get proper tax credits, production credits,
0:26:17 to keep productions in Los Angeles?
0:26:20 Because, you know, as a producer, you know,
0:26:21 I live in Los Angeles.
0:26:22 This is where my family is.
0:26:23 This is where my friends are.
0:26:24 I want to be in Los Angeles.
0:26:26 So I’m not incentivized to leave.
0:26:29 But if a, if Netflix or Paramount or Sony
0:26:31 or HBO comes to me and they say,
0:26:33 you have $10 million to make this movie or show.
0:26:38 And I’m looking at the math and I can get 15 extra days
0:26:41 if I go to Toronto and I can, you know,
0:26:44 and I can pay more for cast or pay more for directors
0:26:44 if I go to Vancouver.
0:26:48 It’s, it’s a, it’s an easy decision to be honest,
0:26:50 you know, even though it makes my life harder
0:26:51 and it’s not something I want to do.
0:26:55 And so it is so much easier to make movies
0:26:58 and shows in Los Angeles, full stop.
0:27:01 But until we solve the production, you know,
0:27:05 tax credit issue, I think this will always be a conversation.
0:27:07 Yeah, both cities you mentioned,
0:27:08 you mentioned two cities in Canada.
0:27:11 Is Canada, is that your go-to
0:27:14 if you’re talking about talent versus economics?
0:27:15 You’re stack-ranked.
0:27:17 What do you think are the most popular places
0:27:20 on a risk-adjusted basis when you look at costs
0:27:23 versus access to talent and beautiful locales?
0:27:23 I’ve been fortunate.
0:27:25 I’ve shot in every tax.
0:27:28 I’ve shot Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta,
0:27:30 New Orleans or Louisiana.
0:27:34 Like I’ve, I’ve shot in every one of these prominent rebate cities.
0:27:37 You know, the thing as a producer what you’re weighing is,
0:27:38 there’s always weather.
0:27:39 Weather is always a concern and an issue.
0:27:42 And each of these cities have different challenges.
0:27:45 You know, Los Angeles, again, is the beauty of LLA is
0:27:47 give or take maybe a month or two,
0:27:48 you’re going to get great weather.
0:27:53 But then you’re also looking at local crew, local casting.
0:27:55 And does that city have, you know,
0:27:58 a crew base and a talent actor base for,
0:28:00 you know, for these smaller parts
0:28:01 that it makes it worthwhile to shoot there?
0:28:05 You know, I’m doing a movie for Netflix this summer.
0:28:07 We’re going to be shooting in New York, New Jersey.
0:28:09 There’s a really prominent rebate there.
0:28:12 Now in New Jersey, I know a lot of productions are going there.
0:28:14 And so that for me would be number one.
0:28:20 I’ve had a lot of success in Atlanta and in New Orleans, Louisiana.
0:28:22 I think those are both really great cities.
0:28:23 To be honest, my favorite city I’ve shot in,
0:28:27 and I’ve shot a movie there and the TV show there is Montreal.
0:28:29 Crew’s amazing.
0:28:32 Montreal is the best city in North America.
0:28:36 Great food, great nightlife.
0:28:38 And so Montreal is actually a really, it’s funny
0:28:40 because Mike White and I shot a movie there,
0:28:42 “Broad Status,” a Ben Stiller movie,
0:28:43 which I think you would love, Scott.
0:28:45 And I’ve since told a lot of friends
0:28:46 to go shoot productions there.
0:28:49 And it’s a really, they have a great tax credit,
0:28:52 great crew, great local actors, and great lifestyle.
0:28:58 Second thesis, that the opacity of information
0:29:00 when you run something on Netflix,
0:29:03 you don’t know how other than renewing the season,
0:29:04 you don’t really know how well it’s doing.
0:29:08 Jennifer Aniston’s agent knew that Friends was the anchor
0:29:11 to the Thursday night and kind of reverse engineered
0:29:13 how much ad revenue they were making
0:29:15 and had the confidence to go ask
0:29:17 for a million dollars per episode per cast member.
0:29:21 And now that you really don’t know what’s working and what isn’t,
0:29:27 it’s essentially what I perceive is a giant flow of capital
0:29:30 from the industry, from the human capital
0:29:33 to the shareholders of Netflix.
0:29:35 Am I oversimplifying what’s gone on there?
0:29:37 I have a controversial take on this
0:29:39 because this is an issue that I’ve debated a lot.
0:29:42 And I’ve been on all sides of this.
0:29:45 So I had a show on NBC called “Superstore.”
0:29:47 And I knew the numbers.
0:29:48 We did 113 episodes.
0:29:51 It’s the most successful sitcom on NBC
0:29:53 in the last 15 years, 20 years.
0:29:55 And I knew all the numbers.
0:29:57 And we would renegotiate every two years
0:29:58 whenever it was.
0:30:02 And I wouldn’t say that we won the negotiations.
0:30:03 Right?
0:30:05 I did a show for Amazon called “Jury Duty.”
0:30:08 Did not know any of the numbers.
0:30:10 We’re not told a single number.
0:30:14 And when we renegotiated, I feel like I won that negotiation.
0:30:21 And to me, it boils down to as a seller of products
0:30:25 in the supply and demand world of Hollywood.
0:30:27 You don’t even need to know the numbers
0:30:30 because you can feel the numbers when you negotiate.
0:30:36 And ultimately, the success of a movie or show, in my opinion,
0:30:38 having information doesn’t really,
0:30:41 has not benefited me in my anecdotal experience.
0:30:47 The energy from the buyer will dictate how well your show did.
0:30:49 Because I saw the numbers on “Superstore,”
0:30:50 and I thought it did amazing.
0:30:52 But what I discovered in my negotiations
0:30:54 is it wasn’t profitable for them.
0:30:56 And it still isn’t profitable, I’m being told.
0:30:59 And that’s a different conversation to the funky number,
0:31:02 you know, the funky economics of studio accounting.
0:31:05 But you can feel the energy in a negotiation
0:31:09 when on the other side, if your show is working or not.
0:31:12 And so without knowing any of my “Jury Duty” numbers,
0:31:15 I know the show worked by the nature of the negotiation
0:31:17 and how bad they wanted that show for a second season.
0:31:19 That’s my opinion.
0:31:22 And I know that might seem ignorant.
0:31:26 But again, having information has never really benefited me.
0:31:29 In “White Lotus 2,” in our renegotiation season to season,
0:31:31 we don’t have the full scope of that show’s numbers.
0:31:35 But I know it’s done well by the nature of HBO’s desire
0:31:38 in demand for us to do another season.
0:31:40 We’ll be right back.
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0:32:48 We’re taking Vox Media podcasts on the road
0:32:51 and heading back to Austin for the South by Southwest Festival,
0:32:52 March 8th to the 10th.
0:32:53 What is real?
0:32:57 We’ll be doing special live episodes of hit shows,
0:32:58 including Pivot.
0:32:59 That’s right.
0:33:01 The dog’s going to the great state of Texas.
0:33:02 Where should we begin?
0:33:07 With Esther Perrell, a Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe,
0:33:12 not just football with Cam Hayward and more presented by Smartsheet.
0:33:14 The Vox Media podcast stage at South by Southwest
0:33:17 is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
0:33:20 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
0:33:25 Visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
0:33:28 That’s voxmedia.com/sxsw.
0:33:36 We’re taking Vox Media podcasts on the road
0:33:39 and heading back to Austin for the South by Southwest Festival,
0:33:41 March 8th to the 10th.
0:33:41 What is real?
0:33:46 Chicken fajita, queso, strawberry margarita, extra shot of tequila.
0:33:49 There you’ll be able to see special live episodes of hit shows,
0:33:51 including our show, Pivot.
0:33:53 Where should we begin with Esther Perrell?
0:33:56 A Touch More with Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe,
0:34:01 not just football with Cam Hayward and more presented by Smartsheet.
0:34:05 The Vox Media podcast stage at South by Southwest
0:34:07 is open to all South by Southwest badge holders.
0:34:10 We hope to see you at the Austin Convention Center soon.
0:34:11 I’m not joking.
0:34:13 I love South by Southwest.
0:34:14 The people are a ton of fun.
0:34:15 It’s a great time.
0:34:17 If you do come come up and say hi,
0:34:22 visit voxmedia.com/sxsw to learn more.
0:34:25 That’s voxmedia.com/sxsw.
0:34:44 Take yourself back 22 years if you and you have the knowledge of knowing
0:34:45 where this business is going to be today,
0:34:47 or if someone’s starting out in the business,
0:34:51 any kind of macro thoughts on their career that this part of the business
0:34:54 is going to be the easiest place to find employment,
0:34:56 this is the medium, the size of the screen,
0:35:02 any advice to a 22-year-old Dave starting in this business?
0:35:05 What do you see as the major themes
0:35:06 and how does someone foot their efforts
0:35:09 to try and take advantage of those things in the industry?
0:35:10 Yeah, that’s a great question.
0:35:13 And I do a lot of coffees and zooms with people,
0:35:16 and my advice to anyone starting in the business would be,
0:35:20 if there’s anything else on earth you can do, I would go do that.
0:35:24 So your general advice is don’t?
0:35:25 Yeah, I don’t do my advice.
0:35:26 Like, because I think this is a,
0:35:29 and you talk about a lot about this, I know,
0:35:32 and it’s an incredibly difficult business.
0:35:35 And I think making a living in this business
0:35:37 has gotten harder and harder for whatever reason.
0:35:41 And I think that this is something that I wake up every day,
0:35:43 and I live it, I breathe it, it’s something I love,
0:35:46 and I feel incredibly fortunate to be doing,
0:35:48 and I can’t imagine doing anything else on earth.
0:35:51 And unless you have that kind of energy and passion
0:35:56 for creating content, I would go do something else.
0:36:01 And I look back and I think about my personal journey,
0:36:03 and I don’t even, there’s no straight line to it.
0:36:08 It’s just a series of decisions that I made in the moment
0:36:10 that somehow worked out.
0:36:12 And I think there’s a, you know,
0:36:15 and again, there’s an incredible amount of rejection
0:36:18 in those enclosed doors on my journey.
0:36:20 And I remember people would say to me,
0:36:22 oh, you’re so lucky, and I would think to myself,
0:36:26 well, you, maybe, but you also haven’t seen the insane amount
0:36:29 of hours and dedication and sacrifice I put into this
0:36:31 in my 20s and 30s to get to this level,
0:36:34 and still, you know, something like White Lotus happened
0:36:39 as a result of COVID and a bunch of series of fortunate events
0:36:40 that led to White Lotus.
0:36:43 And so it’s not like there’s no straight line
0:36:48 and there’s no advice I can give other than go do something else
0:36:50 unless you are willing to kind of sacrifice your,
0:36:54 you know, 70s a week in most of your life to this business.
0:36:57 And, you know, I was, I was reading an article yesterday,
0:36:59 there was, you know, some article that’s like,
0:37:03 you know, 35 year old podcaster that created a network
0:37:05 about true crime, and she’s, you know,
0:37:07 clearing like 40 million a profit every year.
0:37:10 And I found myself thinking about like,
0:37:13 oh, I’d give myself like advice to my younger self.
0:37:15 I’d be like, get into pod, you know, you’re in,
0:37:16 you know, to the business, but I’m like,
0:37:20 get into some other new media business.
0:37:25 Because, you know, it’s making film and TV is really challenging,
0:37:29 really heartbreaking, and again, just difficult to make a living.
0:37:31 And I’m, and I’m, and I’m saying this as someone
0:37:33 who’s incredibly fortunate and who’s doing it.
0:37:37 And that would be my advice, a little cynical and a little,
0:37:39 little believe, but it’s true.
0:37:43 What have you worked on that surprised you most of the upside
0:37:46 or the downside in terms of its commercial success?
0:37:49 Like what, what did you think was going to be bigger than it was,
0:37:51 and what was bigger than you thought it might be?
0:37:54 I mean, jury duty is a good example, and I don’t know if you’ve seen it,
0:37:56 but it’s an interesting anecdote.
0:38:00 It originated just, I was watching Netflix documentary on a couch,
0:38:03 had a kernel of an idea, called a producer friend.
0:38:05 It’s about 2017, 2018.
0:38:06 We started talking about it.
0:38:09 We kind of came up with this concept, brought it to writers.
0:38:11 It was a long journey.
0:38:14 But when we went out and pitched it, basically everyone passed,
0:38:21 except for this woman, Lauren Anderson, who was taking over a segment of Amazon.
0:38:23 It was called, at that point, it’s called IMDbTV.
0:38:25 They rebranded the freebie.
0:38:29 So Amazon proper had passed on it.
0:38:31 It didn’t fit their algorithm or whatever their calculus was.
0:38:36 And we just so happened to have perfect timing
0:38:40 with this woman, Lauren Anderson, who basically invested in us and bet on us.
0:38:42 It was a crazy concept.
0:38:44 It was a verbal pitch, 10 minutes.
0:38:49 And they gave us a healthy amount of money to make a very experimental show.
0:38:53 And when the show launched, no one watched it.
0:38:56 And we got bad reviews and it didn’t really work.
0:39:00 And then over a weekend, someone on TikTok posted about it.
0:39:03 And all of a sudden, it just became this hit.
0:39:07 And it moved from freebie to Amazon proper.
0:39:09 And then it was a hit on Amazon.
0:39:12 And so I still don’t know why it worked.
0:39:15 And maybe it was so original.
0:39:17 But it kind of came out of nowhere.
0:39:21 And that one surprised me the most.
0:39:26 I think, you know, I did a show called White House Plumbers with Woody Harrelson.
0:39:29 Fantastic, and Justin, yeah.
0:39:31 And that one was a surprise.
0:39:36 I think when that came out, I think we just kind of, it came out too late.
0:39:38 I think that one was delayed because of COVID.
0:39:39 And I’m really proud of that show.
0:39:42 And I think by the time it came out, people were over, you know,
0:39:45 nonfiction, historical nonfiction.
0:39:50 And I feel like over, you know, oversaturized with political dramas.
0:39:54 And that one, I feel like should have been worked better than it did.
0:39:55 And I’m still very proud of it.
0:39:59 And that one, you know, that was when I also worked on for 10 years
0:40:00 before it was made.
0:40:01 And that one was really personal to me.
0:40:03 And I wish I had done better.
0:40:05 But again, there’s no rhyme or reason.
0:40:06 You can’t really time it.
0:40:07 And that’s why it’s a tough business.
0:40:11 You can’t really, all you can do is control what you make
0:40:14 and whether audiences find it or not is so out of your control.
0:40:17 And it really comes down to a lot of times timing in the universe.
0:40:23 As my listeners will know, I bring on guests mostly to talk about me.
0:40:25 So let’s get, let’s bring this back to me.
0:40:30 So I met, I met David through a mutual friend, Ben Stiller.
0:40:32 You’ve been friends with him for several decades.
0:40:34 I’ve only been friends with Ben for a couple of years.
0:40:38 And we hit it off and you reached out to me and said,
0:40:42 is there any way I could talk you into doing a small cameo in the White Lotus?
0:40:44 And my first response was, well, how much would that cost me?
0:40:48 And so I’m super excited.
0:40:54 David was generous enough to include me in a small role where I’m,
0:40:54 well, you explain it.
0:40:56 Who am I, David?
0:40:57 I want to say one thing.
0:41:02 Your podcasts, both of them are, you know, if you, if my Spotify rap,
0:41:04 it’s number one, both your podcasts.
0:41:10 And if I have to define my personality or someone to ask me,
0:41:13 who, who kind of encapsulates your personality and point of view on the world?
0:41:14 It’s Scott Galloway.
0:41:18 And so, so me, that dinner with Ben was a, was a, for me,
0:41:20 meeting my number one celebrity crush.
0:41:25 And I have a, I have a text thread with six of my guy friends.
0:41:28 And we’ve been texting every day for 15 years, I want to say.
0:41:31 And it is, it is the embodiment of male friendship.
0:41:32 It’s, it’s everything.
0:41:37 It’s every, every concept, but you are a frequent point of conversation.
0:41:39 And this is the ultimate compliment.
0:41:44 I think we use your, we will reference you or use one of your articles or
0:41:47 something you said on one of the podcasts to prove a point.
0:41:51 And so just so you are, you are our friends, my friend, Neil Paris,
0:41:55 Joe Ford, Neil Shaw, like these guys, we talk about you every day probably.
0:41:57 So meeting you was a big, big thrill for me.
0:42:01 Getting to, you know, developing a friendship with you has been a big thrill.
0:42:07 And so we were casting a part for a lawyer and we need someone that,
0:42:14 you know, was kind of, could deliver emotionless, very just to the point dialogue.
0:42:18 And so we were on set and I said to Mike, I’m like, what about Scott Callow?
0:42:20 And Mike’s a huge fan of yours also.
0:42:24 And so, you know, I was thrilled when you said yes.
0:42:29 I was nervous that maybe he wouldn’t be able to deliver.
0:42:32 And so if you don’t mind, I’ll tell you the story.
0:42:35 So we were in, I was in Kosimoui.
0:42:38 You sent me the first, your first recordings.
0:42:39 I listened to it.
0:42:43 I almost shit my pants because I was like, I don’t know.
0:42:44 This sucks.
0:42:45 This sucks.
0:42:46 I don’t know if this is going to fly.
0:42:52 And I think I had, then I heard you mention it on, on, I think on Pivot.
0:42:56 And so I was extra nervous that I was going to somehow disappoint you.
0:42:57 I did not want to disappoint you.
0:43:03 And so I called, I think I got, maybe I was back in LA or I might have been still in Thailand.
0:43:08 And I called you and I said, would you mind possibly re-recording?
0:43:10 You know, it was trying to be subtle about it.
0:43:12 I didn’t want you to think that I was nervous.
0:43:16 You, you were so managed me like, it’s great, but we think it can be better.
0:43:20 I sent it to the editor.
0:43:22 The editor was like, I don’t know if this is going to work.
0:43:26 And then I was like, I had the, you know, I will give myself credit.
0:43:30 I had the smart idea of sending Jason Isaacs over to your apartment.
0:43:34 Just, you know, I was like, maybe Jason could help you read with you.
0:43:37 And I remember I was like very anxious.
0:43:39 I was like, Jason, call me as soon as you get out of there.
0:43:43 Jason called me and he goes, we did an hour of takes.
0:43:45 It could be all dog shit.
0:43:46 Maybe there’s something in there.
0:43:50 And I have to say genuinely, you are great in the show.
0:43:55 In that, in those hour of recordings, we found gold.
0:43:57 And as soon as Mike heard it, he loved it.
0:43:59 Honestly, like it was, it was like, okay, this is great.
0:44:00 I know Mike told me he wrote you.
0:44:02 So, you know, so you know, I’m not full of shit.
0:44:06 And, and I will be honest, like in all my text read,
0:44:07 I was like keeping everyone updated.
0:44:10 I’m like, we might have to cut scoff from the show.
0:44:11 I’m, I’m freaking out.
0:44:12 I love that.
0:44:13 Because they were talking about it too.
0:44:17 And so I was really nervous, but I’m glad it worked out.
0:44:21 And I, I’m, I’m hoping this is the beginning of a long Hollywood career for you.
0:44:24 And you become, and when you win an Emmy, you have to thank me on stage.
0:44:25 That’s all I ask.
0:44:27 Well, you, you don’t know this.
0:44:28 I’ve had five TV shows already, Dave.
0:44:30 They’ve all been canceled within two or three weeks.
0:44:33 So I have a face for podcasting, but I’ll give you my side of the story.
0:44:39 I thought I did an amazing job and I sent it to you and you were very supportive.
0:44:42 And I remember telling my, my, I take care, oh my God, I killed it.
0:44:43 I was so good.
0:44:46 And then I got the message from you saying, we think we can do better.
0:44:51 And this handsome guy shows up to my apartment with movie star, good looks.
0:44:52 I didn’t know who Jason Isaac was.
0:44:53 I didn’t put the two and two together.
0:44:56 I’m like, I’m like, dude, you’re the guy from the Patriot.
0:45:00 And he’s, he’s actually one of these very accomplished British actors.
0:45:03 And by the way, I think in the white lotus, the first two episodes,
0:45:05 I think he kind of owns the screen whenever he’s on it.
0:45:07 I think Parker is amazing because she’s just so quirky.
0:45:10 But I think, I think Jason kind of owns the screen whenever he’s on it.
0:45:15 But anyways, he came over, he was on his way to a tennis lesson, this like handsome guy.
0:45:17 And he’s like, I’m here to help.
0:45:21 And we went into my studio and for an hour I’d hit a line and he’d go like,
0:45:22 okay, this is the situation.
0:45:28 I’m about to fire you and you don’t know what to say and you’re a little scared.
0:45:28 Hit the line.
0:45:31 And then he’d be like, no, hit it again, dial it up.
0:45:36 And I walked away or he would say to me, this guy’s such an asshole and you just found out.
0:45:36 He’s like, look at that’s good.
0:45:40 But now this guy’s such an asshole and you just found out he’s having an affair with your wife.
0:45:42 He’s like, let it sink in, let it sink in.
0:45:42 Now hit it.
0:45:48 And he made me do this over and over with different situations and different emotions
0:45:54 and different feelings. And I walked away from that hour with such an appreciation
0:45:57 for just how fucking hard it is what you do.
0:46:01 Because I thought, oh, I’ve been in boardrooms.
0:46:02 I know how to own a room.
0:46:05 I know how to deliver something unemotionally.
0:46:06 That’s not it.
0:46:10 That’s not enough in Hollywood to really get across the board.
0:46:12 There’s so much more that goes into it.
0:46:21 And people don’t appreciate just how fucking difficult it is to bring out the emotions
0:46:23 and the resonance and the logic and move an audience.
0:46:28 And I’m not saying that scene was able to do it, but you’re able to do it.
0:46:29 And so are other creatives.
0:46:33 And when this guy walked out of my house, my tech guy was there, Drew.
0:46:35 And he’s on the line now.
0:46:37 And I remember saying to Drew, I’m not sure.
0:46:40 But I think that guy just turned chicken shit into chicken salad.
0:46:43 And he was so good.
0:46:43 This is an actor.
0:46:46 I’m not sure he’s even directed before.
0:46:54 But he was in my face, sweating, burning calories, giving me weird, strange advice
0:46:57 to try and get my voice up, down, try and put me in the right frame.
0:47:01 And I remember thinking, what these people do, whatever they’re making,
0:47:02 they’re not making enough.
0:47:04 Because what this is is hard.
0:47:08 And it was such an illuminating experience for me.
0:47:10 So thank you for that.
0:47:13 It gave me a new appreciation for the art form.
0:47:17 Because I think a lot of people think that acting is just showing up and being who you are.
0:47:19 Oh my god, it’s not.
0:47:23 It was one of the most difficult taxing hours I’ve ever had.
0:47:29 It was really– I can’t imagine what it’s like to be on set and have all this alchemy
0:47:32 and it’s not working, and then to try coach people through it.
0:47:37 It’s got to be– you are juggling, I would think, just a ton of plates,
0:47:41 except the plates are our actors, directors, cinematographers.
0:47:43 It must be just incredibly difficult.
0:47:44 Your thoughts, David.
0:47:52 Imagine that experience with 200 people looking at you and the stress of a schedule,
0:47:56 trying to get to the scene, losing light, and all of that.
0:48:00 And for actors to be able to perform on set under that pressure
0:48:04 and deliver great performances, it is a true talent and is not easy.
0:48:12 But it’s funny, Jason Isaacs is an incredibly accomplished guy and he loves acting.
0:48:15 I think he took so much pleasure in that hour he spent with you.
0:48:18 I think he’s the kind of guy who would talk about acting
0:48:21 and would be acting 24 hours a day if someone would pay him.
0:48:22 Or he would do it for free, honestly.
0:48:28 But yeah, I make little cameos and most of the stuff I do.
0:48:33 And I pop up in white lotus and every time I’m on set and I’m in a scene
0:48:36 and I don’t have any dialogue, usually it’s kind of I’m doing some sort of action.
0:48:40 I’m like, thank fucking God, I don’t want to be an actor.
0:48:44 Because it is a hard, hard job to kind of,
0:48:47 and also to give yourself to a camera and be that vulnerable.
0:48:52 But it also speaks to how talented directors are to be able to manage.
0:48:55 Everyone has an ego, right?
0:48:57 And so you’re basically going up to someone and going,
0:48:59 that was kind of shitty.
0:49:01 Can you do it a different way?
0:49:03 Or your instincts are off, do it my way?
0:49:06 And how do you deliver that in a way that doesn’t offend them
0:49:08 and get what you want out of the actor?
0:49:11 But yeah, it’s tough.
0:49:13 It’s all, it’s a tough business.
0:49:17 And again, it speaks to great performances are not easy to come by.
0:49:21 So just as we wrap up here, a lot of young men listen to the show
0:49:24 and they hear someone successful like you
0:49:25 and they think, I’d like to be that guy.
0:49:28 Can you talk a little bit about growing up
0:49:30 who are really the big influences in your life,
0:49:34 people or kind of situations that sort of change your life?
0:49:37 Yeah, I mean, this is something that I really love about your work
0:49:39 and what you talk about and something that really resonates with me.
0:49:42 And my parents are both Hungarian immigrants
0:49:45 and my grandparents are all Holocaust survivors.
0:49:47 And my father is someone who,
0:49:51 he didn’t speak the language when he immigrated from Budapest.
0:49:53 He ended up in Montreal and eventually in America.
0:49:57 But he’s someone, my grandfather made sure my father
0:50:03 really learned what work ethic is and an appreciation for work.
0:50:04 And that’s something my father instilled in me.
0:50:07 And he was probably my first mentor,
0:50:11 but I had a English teacher and a basketball coach named Mike Hibbs
0:50:13 who changed my life and introduced me to storytelling.
0:50:17 And it was so tough on me from a place of love
0:50:19 and a place that really responded.
0:50:21 So when I started at UTA and I was in the mailroom,
0:50:24 nothing was ever going to be as difficult and challenging
0:50:28 as my basketball coach and English teacher and how he pushed me.
0:50:33 And that mail mentorship really changed my life.
0:50:36 And I told my English teacher, Mike Hibbs,
0:50:38 when I was in high school,
0:50:40 that I was one day going to fly him out to a premiere
0:50:42 when I make my first movie.
0:50:45 And I flew him out for the white lotus premiere two weeks ago.
0:50:47 And it was almost 30 years to when I told him I would do that.
0:50:51 And having him there was so moving for me.
0:50:52 And I think moving for him,
0:50:55 and he’s someone who’s dedicated his life to mentoring young men,
0:51:00 whether it’s on the basketball court or in the English class.
0:51:02 And I think for me,
0:51:06 I wanted him to see what his mentorship meant to me
0:51:08 and what I was able to accomplish.
0:51:11 And I feel very fortunate I have that relationship.
0:51:13 And you talk a lot about this.
0:51:17 And even my text read, I was referencing my six buddies.
0:51:18 We push each other every day.
0:51:22 And those friendships really, they ground you
0:51:23 and they keep you humble,
0:51:24 but they also push you in a way.
0:51:28 And I would say that that’s really why I’m here today.
0:51:30 Honestly, talking to you is where those relationships.
0:51:34 And whenever I’ve known you for that long,
0:51:37 but it seems like you’re always in eight time zones away,
0:51:41 how do you, and I know very little about your personal life,
0:51:43 how do you, and maybe you don’t,
0:51:46 how do you establish any sort of momentum or traction
0:51:47 in a relationship?
0:51:47 I don’t.
0:51:49 I mean, I’m single, I’m 44.
0:51:53 And that’s a part of my life.
0:51:59 I feel like I’ve sacrificed to kind of get to where I am currently.
0:52:02 And I’ve tried to maintain those relationships,
0:52:06 but part of being a producer and part of being a producer
0:52:08 is actually they’re doing the work.
0:52:11 It almost becomes all-encompassing.
0:52:14 So it’s hard at night to give yourself emotionally
0:52:16 or in the morning before work,
0:52:18 because you’re either, your tank is at zero
0:52:20 or you’re distracted.
0:52:22 And that’s something that, you know, I’ve,
0:52:25 that’s something that I haven’t figured out also in my life
0:52:27 and how to find that balance
0:52:28 and something that I’m, you know,
0:52:31 I need to work on and be better at because, you know,
0:52:34 and it’s, and you know, I have another really great mentor,
0:52:38 one of the partners at CAA who right before I went to go
0:52:41 do white lotus season three said to me,
0:52:42 he sent me an email and he said, you know,
0:52:44 I really, I’d love for you to come by CAA
0:52:45 and see me before you leave.
0:52:47 And I thought he was going to talk to me about some work stuff.
0:52:51 And I went to his office and he said, you know,
0:52:51 I don’t want to talk about work.
0:52:52 You’re doing great.
0:52:54 And I’m really proud of you.
0:52:56 What I want to talk about is your personal life
0:52:58 and the fact I don’t want you to end up like me.
0:53:01 And how can we change that part of your life?
0:53:03 And he, you know, and he took an interest
0:53:05 and that’s, you know, that really meant a lot to me.
0:53:07 And it’s something that I’ve been thinking about
0:53:10 and how do I, how do I find that balance?
0:53:11 And that’s something I haven’t figured out yet.
0:53:16 And what do you do for sort of meditation or relaxation
0:53:17 or just to stay kind of centered,
0:53:20 given the amount of anxiety and insecurity in your industry?
0:53:23 I mean, I’m not just, I listen to pivot.
0:53:25 I’m not kidding.
0:53:25 Oh yeah.
0:53:26 I’m not joking.
0:53:27 That’s what everybody needs.
0:53:27 I’m not joking.
0:53:30 Like I, I’m not kidding when I say, you know,
0:53:33 all my downtime, every flight,
0:53:36 you kind of narrated my experience in Thailand.
0:53:39 And, you know, we, I must have been on 45 flights last year,
0:53:41 you know, in and out of Thailand.
0:53:44 And I was, I would listen to Prof. G or your pivot.
0:53:48 I mean, I, for me, you know, I watch a lot of reality TV,
0:53:52 to be honest, and, and listen to podcasts and, and, you know,
0:53:55 finding a good hobby or getting into meditation,
0:53:57 something I need to also figure out.
0:53:58 I, I have a lot of work to do on myself.
0:54:00 It’s basically what I’m learning from this conversation.
0:54:04 But I really, I haven’t found that, that thing yet
0:54:06 that helps me fully disconnect.
0:54:09 Cause, you know, even listening to pivot
0:54:12 or listening to, you know, that to me is partly does that work.
0:54:14 I, I basically have taken a lot of good stock advice from you.
0:54:16 You’ve made me some good money.
0:54:19 So I owe you a dinner next time we see you, but.
0:54:20 I think I owe you.
0:54:21 Yeah. No.
0:54:25 When my kids, when my kids hear me in the white lotus, I owe you.
0:54:25 I haven’t told them.
0:54:28 I can’t tell you how excited I haven’t told them.
0:54:29 We’re going to watch it.
0:54:31 I, it’s going to be, you’re, you have brought,
0:54:32 you are going to bring so much credibility
0:54:35 to me amongst my 14 and seven year olds.
0:54:39 So I owe you a couple, just a couple more serious questions before we go.
0:54:43 Anyone in your life you lost or that’s not around,
0:54:44 that you wish you could say something to.
0:54:49 Yeah. I, when I was, uh, when I was working at UTA and I was an assistant and,
0:54:52 and I, and that was one of the best experiences of my life,
0:54:54 being in the, going from the mail room, working for a partner,
0:54:57 David Kramer there who, who also was a huge mentor,
0:55:00 like he was a huge mentor in my life and he would,
0:55:02 every Monday morning I’d come in and he’d say,
0:55:04 how many scripts to read this weekend?
0:55:06 And if I, you know, and I would say six,
0:55:08 he was not good enough, eight, that’s not good enough, 10, you know,
0:55:11 so he really pushed me, my work ethic.
0:55:14 And I met this young assistant named James Cap,
0:55:16 Jay Kaplan, James Kaplan,
0:55:19 who was working for these directors, David and Ferris.
0:55:21 And we struck up a really amazing friendship.
0:55:25 And he helped me find the strength to leave UTA
0:55:28 and go kind of really pursue my creative dreams.
0:55:30 And we were starting a company and we,
0:55:32 we’d actually sold our first project.
0:55:34 We were negotiating a producing deal together.
0:55:37 And, you know, we, he died suddenly.
0:55:38 He had a brain aneurysm at 28.
0:55:44 And he collapsed and I rushed to UCLA hospital.
0:55:47 I was there at his bedside and he passed away.
0:55:49 And, and he had just got married.
0:55:51 He had just directed his first commercial.
0:55:53 And again, we had just sold our first project.
0:55:56 And, you know, I dedicate every movie and show I do, I did,
0:55:57 I put him in the, in the dedication and,
0:55:59 and I think about him every day.
0:56:02 And, and for me, I don’t think I’d be,
0:56:04 I definitely want to be where I’m at now without him
0:56:05 and that relationship.
0:56:08 And, and we talked every day
0:56:09 and we were such a great sounding board
0:56:10 and it was such a huge loss.
0:56:14 And so I, you know, I wish he was here to kind of see
0:56:15 what I’ve been able to accomplish.
0:56:16 And for me to tell him I love him
0:56:19 and how much he meant to me and how much, you know,
0:56:21 his support as a friend, you know,
0:56:24 during some tough times and in my 20s really, really helped me.
0:56:30 And last thing, anybody in this can be serious, not serious.
0:56:33 He’d just love to give a shout out to
0:56:36 and have them be surprised that if and when they hear about this,
0:56:38 you just are thinking of just something,
0:56:41 someone you’re thinking about and anything you’d like to say to them
0:56:42 and it’ll get back to them.
0:56:45 Yeah. I mean, Neil Paris, it’s really my group of friends
0:56:46 because we talk about it every day.
0:56:52 Neil Paris, Neil Shaw, Joe Port, Ravi Patel, Evan Winaker,
0:56:55 Mayor Setti, that’s my, my text thread.
0:56:58 We, you, like I told you, you come up almost daily.
0:57:00 And I think they were the first persons,
0:57:02 first people I told that I was coming on the show.
0:57:05 I think there’s probably a, you know,
0:57:07 like in every great group of male friends,
0:57:11 they’re, they’re probably jealous, they’re competitive,
0:57:12 but also proud of me.
0:57:17 And so I think I’m really, yeah, I think.
0:57:18 And also each of them are like,
0:57:20 you better shout us out on the podcast.
0:57:22 Well, box checked.
0:57:25 David Bernad is the Emmy winning executive producer
0:57:27 for HBO’s The White Lotus,
0:57:29 who’s also known for producing Uncharted,
0:57:33 Jury Duty, Enlightened and, and I didn’t know this,
0:57:34 White House Plumber.
0:57:35 He joins us from Los Angeles.
0:57:38 David, you are so far ahead of where I was.
0:57:42 I didn’t appreciate just how precious and wonderful it is
0:57:44 to have to kind of the friend group you have.
0:57:47 And what you’re going to find is that you are the average
0:57:49 in their science of this of those five guys.
0:57:51 And so you guys building and loving each other.
0:57:55 It just, it’s, it’s, it’s not only incredibly rewarding.
0:57:57 It’s a smart thing to do because you guys will progress
0:57:58 and you’ll fall together.
0:58:02 And I’m telling you in 15 years,
0:58:04 you’re going to look back hopefully on your kids
0:58:06 and your career.
0:58:07 And you’re going to feel great,
0:58:09 but it almost means nothing.
0:58:12 It’s almost as if it doesn’t happen without that text group.
0:58:14 And you’re just a great exam.
0:58:16 I’m just so happy for your success and that you found,
0:58:20 you have your like tribe of people to share it with.
0:58:20 Thanks so much, David.
0:58:22 And again, thanks for the opportunity.
0:58:23 This was such a treat for me.
0:58:24 Thank you, Scott.
0:58:38 [Music]
0:58:39 Algebra of happiness.
0:58:41 When you’re overwhelmed with information overload,
0:58:42 how do you respond?
0:58:45 This isn’t about stress management.
0:58:48 It’s about how to, if you’re in an organization
0:58:50 and you just have so much information
0:58:53 and different, different touch points
0:58:56 or you are barraged with information
0:58:59 that you find is like outrageous
0:59:00 or there’s too many things going on.
0:59:01 I’m obviously speaking about what’s going on
0:59:03 across our government right now.
0:59:04 And I think it’s a purposeful strategy
0:59:07 to sort of blitzkrieg you with information
0:59:10 such that you don’t focus on their true objectives
0:59:11 or what’s really important.
0:59:13 And it’s easy to feel kind of flat footed
0:59:14 and how do you strike back.
0:59:16 And I’ve, for about a week,
0:59:19 just felt sort of overwhelmed and didn’t know what to do.
0:59:21 And I don’t like the idea of being offended
0:59:23 and outraged and responding to everything.
0:59:24 And I think there’s just some basics
0:59:26 around communication and responding effectively
0:59:30 when people are kind of in your face
0:59:32 or things are happening at work
0:59:33 that you feel overloaded by
0:59:35 because there’s so many things that upset you.
0:59:38 And the first is to respond in a thoughtful way
0:59:40 and recognize you don’t need to respond to everything.
0:59:41 You need to prioritize.
0:59:44 At the end of the day, what’s really important here?
0:59:46 There might be things that are outrageous.
0:59:48 The most recent one, as I’ve heard,
0:59:51 the Trump administration is thinking about
0:59:53 advocating for or pardoning Andrew Tate.
0:59:55 Yeah, that’s outrageous.
1:00:00 Who the fuck cares with some loser in Romania
1:00:04 that was spending time sex trafficking
1:00:06 or in a webcam business
1:00:09 and trying to sign a vulnerable young man to his crypto year?
1:00:10 Who the fuck cares?
1:00:12 But that’s a look over here.
1:00:14 That’s not important.
1:00:16 You don’t have to respond to everything.
1:00:17 Take a beat.
1:00:19 You don’t have to respond immediately to everything
1:00:22 and shout into Twitter or into TikTok.
1:00:23 That’s not…
1:00:26 The world doesn’t need to hear from you on everything.
1:00:29 And then bring, when you do respond,
1:00:31 one, pick one or two issues
1:00:32 that you feel especially strongly about
1:00:34 that you think deserve priority
1:00:37 and that you, one, have some domain expertise in
1:00:40 and also bring in outside experts and facts
1:00:43 and try and be very thoughtful and methodical and unemotional.
1:00:45 If you can be offended, you can be manipulated.
1:00:47 And when you’re offended all the fucking time,
1:00:49 it just shows quite frankly you’re a little bit weak
1:00:51 and a little bit easily manipulated.
1:00:54 This is how you effectively counterpunch
1:00:56 because keep in mind a lot of people
1:00:57 will try and overwhelm you.
1:00:59 You know when you get an argument with your spouse
1:01:00 and they’re losing and they immediately
1:01:02 start bringing up something else.
1:01:04 Okay, don’t go there.
1:01:05 Don’t go there.
1:01:07 Or they try and gaslight you with something else.
1:01:08 Be disciplined.
1:01:10 Be an adult.
1:01:11 Be a warrior around this stuff.
1:01:14 That is slow down.
1:01:16 You don’t need to respond to everything.
1:01:18 Pick the one or two issues that are most important to you.
1:01:19 Come with data.
1:01:20 Come with experts.
1:01:21 Be reasonable.
1:01:22 Be thoughtful.
1:01:25 This is information warfare, right?
1:01:27 This is storytelling versus storytelling.
1:01:29 You don’t have to respond to anything.
1:01:31 And if you can’t figure out a way
1:01:33 not to be offended by everything,
1:01:35 that means you are a mark.
1:01:36 You are what they want.
1:01:38 You are easily manipulated.
1:01:44 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.
1:01:46 Our intern is Dan Shalon.
1:01:47 Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
1:01:49 Thank you for listening to the PropG pod
1:01:51 from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
1:01:53 We will catch you on Saturday
1:01:56 for “No Mercenome Mouse,” as read by George Hahn.
1:01:58 And please follow our PropG Markets Pod
1:01:59 wherever you get your pods
1:02:02 for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.
1:02:05 [MUSIC PLAYING]
1:02:08 (upbeat music)
1:02:18 [BLANK_AUDIO]