Was Biden’s Decline a Cover-Up? — with Jake Tapper & Alex Thompson

0:00:02 Support for Prop 3 comes from Viore.
0:00:04 Oh my God, true story.
0:00:08 I am wearing, totally coincidentally, guess what?
0:00:09 Viore shorts.
0:00:12 Viore’s high quality gym clothes are made to be versatile
0:00:14 and stand the test of time.
0:00:17 They sent me some to try out and here I am.
0:00:20 For our listeners, Viore is offering 20% off
0:00:21 your first purchase.
0:00:24 Plus, you have free shipping on any US orders
0:00:26 over $75 in free returns.
0:00:27 Get yourself some of the most comfortable
0:00:30 and versatile clothing on the planet.
0:00:31 Viore.com slash Prop G.
0:00:35 That’s V-U-O-R-I dot com slash Prop G.
0:00:37 Exclusions apply.
0:00:40 Visit the website for full terms and conditions.
0:00:47 In every company, there’s a whole system of decision makers,
0:00:48 challenges, and strategies,
0:00:51 shaping the future of business at every level.
0:00:52 That’s why we’re running a special
0:00:54 three-part Decoder Thursday series,
0:00:56 looking at how some of the biggest companies in the world
0:00:59 are adapting, innovating, and rethinking their playbooks.
0:01:01 We’re asking enterprise leaders
0:01:02 about some of the toughest questions
0:01:03 they’re facing today,
0:01:06 revealing the tensions, risks, and breakthroughs
0:01:07 happening behind closed doors.
0:01:10 Check out Decoder, wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:12 This special series from The Verge
0:01:13 is presented by Adobe Express.
0:01:16 What’s up, y’all?
0:01:17 It’s Kenny Beach, and we are currently watching
0:01:19 the best playoff basketball since,
0:01:21 since I can’t even remember when.
0:01:24 This is what we’ve been waiting for all season long.
0:01:25 And on my show, Small Ball,
0:01:27 I’ll be breaking down the series matchups,
0:01:28 major performances,
0:01:29 in-game coaching decisions,
0:01:31 and game strategy,
0:01:32 and so much more
0:01:35 for the most exciting time of the NBA calendar.
0:01:36 New episodes through the playoffs
0:01:37 available on YouTube
0:01:38 and wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:40 Subscribe to Small Ball with Kenny Beach
0:01:41 so you don’t miss a thing.
0:01:45 Episode 349.
0:01:47 349 is the area code
0:01:48 serving the Mexican state of Jalisco.
0:01:51 In 1949, NATO was formed.
0:01:52 What does a Scotsman say
0:01:55 when he loses a digit on his foot?
0:01:57 NATO.
0:02:04 Yeah, we’re reaching.
0:02:07 Go, go, go!
0:02:16 Welcome to the 349th episode
0:02:18 of the Prop G-Pod.
0:02:18 What’s happening?
0:02:20 Okay, in today’s episode,
0:02:22 wow, is this blown up
0:02:23 into something we weren’t thinking?
0:02:24 Jake Tapper,
0:02:26 anchor of the lead on CNN
0:02:28 and the network chief Washington correspondent
0:02:29 and Alex Thompson,
0:02:31 national political correspondent for Axios
0:02:33 and CNN contributor on the pod.
0:02:34 They’re the co-authors of a new book,
0:02:35 Original Sin,
0:02:38 which unpacks what they call
0:02:40 the defining mistake of the 2024 election,
0:02:41 President Biden’s decision
0:02:42 to run for re-election
0:02:43 followed by a concerted effort
0:02:45 to hide his cognitive decline.
0:02:47 Let’s talk about the timeline
0:02:48 and what’s going on here.
0:02:48 I find this fascinating.
0:02:50 Biden officially dropped out of the race
0:02:51 on July 21st, 2024.
0:02:54 I want to say I’m the original ageist.
0:02:55 I said I’m Bill Maher
0:02:56 where he responded,
0:02:56 you’re an ageist,
0:02:58 and I said, yeah, so is biology.
0:02:58 I called,
0:03:00 I said that it was fucking ridiculous
0:03:02 that Biden was running for re-election
0:03:02 and also ridiculous
0:03:03 that Donald Trump
0:03:04 was running for election.
0:03:06 Our prefrontal cortex
0:03:08 begins to degrade
0:03:09 at the age of 40
0:03:11 and we take driver’s licenses
0:03:12 away from people.
0:03:13 We don’t let them be pilots.
0:03:14 Most CEOs
0:03:16 and most of Western nations
0:03:17 are asked to retire at 65
0:03:19 and yet we’ve decided
0:03:21 that people who are even past
0:03:22 what is the life expectancy
0:03:23 in the United States
0:03:25 can have their finger on the button.
0:03:27 This is a very taxing button.
0:03:28 We absolutely need age limits
0:03:29 on the top end
0:03:31 as we do on the bottom end.
0:03:32 But anyways,
0:03:34 here is some receipts
0:03:37 from me being the original ageist.
0:03:37 What a thrill!
0:03:41 On July 11th,
0:03:42 I said on this very podcast
0:03:43 that it was time
0:03:44 for him to step down.
0:03:45 And let’s be honest,
0:03:47 America is the most impressive
0:03:47 country in the world.
0:03:49 We need to mature
0:03:50 the most impressive person
0:03:52 in the party
0:03:54 to lead the Democratic Party
0:03:56 and be the front line
0:03:57 and that is not the president.
0:03:59 OK, then again on Pivot
0:04:00 with Kara Swisher
0:04:01 just days before he exited the race.
0:04:03 A few weeks ago,
0:04:05 there was a general sense
0:04:08 that the destabilization
0:04:11 and the risks of removing Biden
0:04:12 for a lot of people
0:04:13 were not worth it.
0:04:14 And then as there was
0:04:15 additional scrutiny
0:04:16 and he was forced to go
0:04:18 off teleprompter
0:04:19 and do live stuff,
0:04:20 quite frankly,
0:04:21 it just cemented,
0:04:22 confirmed, validated
0:04:24 everyone’s worst fears.
0:04:25 And I wrote about it
0:04:26 even earlier
0:04:27 in our newsletter,
0:04:28 No Mercy, No Malice
0:04:28 on July 5th.
0:04:31 I believe President Biden
0:04:32 will announce
0:04:33 he is withdrawing
0:04:34 from the 2024 race
0:04:35 imminently.
0:04:39 Anyway,
0:04:40 the book has really
0:04:41 stirred controversy,
0:04:42 not because of what
0:04:42 the book reveals,
0:04:43 but because of when
0:04:44 it was released,
0:04:45 just days after the news
0:04:46 broke about
0:04:47 Biden’s cancer diagnosis.
0:04:48 So,
0:04:50 this conversation
0:04:51 with Jake and Alex
0:04:51 was recorded
0:04:52 before this kind of
0:04:53 controversy hit it.
0:04:54 I think a lot of this
0:04:55 is that people feel
0:04:56 that Jake and Alex
0:04:57 accidentally are sort of
0:04:57 dancing on the grave
0:04:59 or the early grave
0:05:01 of a man who has
0:05:01 devoted his life
0:05:02 to the U.S.
0:05:03 I think a lot of this
0:05:04 is that people are
0:05:05 just upset about
0:05:06 the fact that
0:05:07 Democrats lost
0:05:09 to an insurrectionist
0:05:10 and are looking
0:05:11 for a target
0:05:11 for their anger.
0:05:12 And I think
0:05:13 Jake and Alex
0:05:13 got in the way.
0:05:15 But this was an honest
0:05:17 and thoughtful conversation.
0:05:18 There’s also criticism,
0:05:19 especially toward Jake,
0:05:20 that he knew about
0:05:21 Biden’s decline
0:05:21 and is now trying
0:05:22 to profit from it
0:05:23 with his book.
0:05:24 Look,
0:05:25 they’re trying to make
0:05:26 it sound more scandalous
0:05:27 than it probably was.
0:05:28 I don’t think
0:05:29 cover-up is the right term.
0:05:30 If they were truly
0:05:30 trying to cover
0:05:32 Biden’s cognitive decline,
0:05:33 they would have never
0:05:34 allowed him to debate.
0:05:36 Trump decided not to debate
0:05:37 after it was clear
0:05:37 he didn’t have
0:05:38 the cognitive abilities
0:05:40 to go toe-to-toe
0:05:41 with Vice President Harris.
0:05:42 He looked stupid,
0:05:42 flat-footed,
0:05:43 and quite frankly old.
0:05:44 And they decided
0:05:45 to hide him.
0:05:48 They let President Biden out.
0:05:50 So we all knew this.
0:05:50 I mean,
0:05:51 this was a kind
0:05:51 of an open secret.
0:05:54 And if you have
0:05:54 aging parents,
0:05:55 you know that you’re
0:05:56 not covering up for them,
0:05:57 but you’re accidental
0:05:58 co-conspirators.
0:05:59 This was naive.
0:05:59 It was stupid.
0:06:00 It was irresponsible
0:06:01 for the people around him
0:06:02 and his family
0:06:03 and him, quite frankly,
0:06:04 to let this go
0:06:05 as long as it did.
0:06:06 I believe that
0:06:07 it had the primary process,
0:06:08 which is this
0:06:09 unbelievable process
0:06:09 that matures
0:06:10 not only the right person,
0:06:11 but the right person
0:06:11 for the moment.
0:06:13 I think we would have
0:06:14 handed Trump his ass
0:06:14 and we wouldn’t have
0:06:15 an insurrectionist
0:06:16 who is engaging
0:06:17 in the greatest grift
0:06:17 in the history
0:06:19 of a Western economy
0:06:20 right now.
0:06:21 But the reason we have
0:06:22 a quote-unquote person
0:06:22 who is found guilty
0:06:24 on 34 counts
0:06:25 of sexual abuse
0:06:26 by a jury of his peers,
0:06:27 which includes
0:06:28 many Republicans,
0:06:29 the reason why
0:06:30 that person won
0:06:32 is because of
0:06:33 not this cover-up,
0:06:34 but this naivete,
0:06:34 this ignorance,
0:06:35 and this poor judgment
0:06:37 of President Biden
0:06:39 and his family.
0:06:40 And we have to
0:06:41 reckon with that.
0:06:42 And also the Democratic Party
0:06:43 who decided not to have,
0:06:44 my recommendation
0:06:46 was that we have
0:06:47 a compressed sort of
0:06:48 all-hands shark tank
0:06:50 like primary
0:06:51 with multiple debates
0:06:52 and try and mature
0:06:52 the best person
0:06:54 because no one had heard
0:06:55 of Barack Obama
0:06:56 or Bill Clinton,
0:06:58 but the primary process
0:06:58 on both sides
0:06:59 tends to mature
0:07:00 amazing candidates.
0:07:01 And we decided
0:07:01 that we were going
0:07:02 to stick our heads
0:07:02 in the sand
0:07:04 and believe
0:07:04 that someone
0:07:05 who didn’t make it
0:07:06 to Iowa
0:07:08 was in the previous election
0:07:09 was the right person
0:07:11 to take the mantle
0:07:13 after basically Biden
0:07:13 was threatened
0:07:14 with getting embarrassed
0:07:15 day by day
0:07:15 when it became
0:07:16 very obvious
0:07:18 that he was
0:07:18 in no shape
0:07:19 whatsoever
0:07:21 to run for president again.
0:07:21 So this is
0:07:23 this is something
0:07:24 that we all engage in
0:07:25 because we all love
0:07:27 our aging parents
0:07:27 and our family.
0:07:28 we see them
0:07:29 at their best
0:07:30 so you can
0:07:31 absolutely understand
0:07:32 how they would
0:07:33 make excuses.
0:07:34 This is a guy
0:07:34 who was pushing
0:07:35 back on Russia
0:07:36 who stood up
0:07:37 to send
0:07:38 immediately deployed
0:07:39 aircraft carrier
0:07:40 strike forces
0:07:40 to the Mediterranean
0:07:41 and told Iran
0:07:42 to sit the fuck down.
0:07:43 I don’t think
0:07:43 he gets enough
0:07:44 credit for that.
0:07:45 Passed a ton
0:07:46 of meaningful
0:07:48 legislation.
0:07:49 I mean,
0:07:49 this guy,
0:07:50 you could see
0:07:51 why people would say,
0:07:52 look,
0:07:53 he’s lost a step
0:07:53 but he surrounds himself
0:07:55 with really talented people
0:07:55 and he’s the best
0:07:56 thing for the country.
0:07:57 You can absolutely
0:07:58 see that argument.
0:07:59 And again,
0:08:01 we all engage in this
0:08:02 if you have aging parents
0:08:04 in what is not a cover-up
0:08:06 but a tendency
0:08:06 to enable,
0:08:07 rationalize,
0:08:08 and not see
0:08:09 the forest for the trees.
0:08:10 When you’re inside
0:08:11 of the bottle,
0:08:12 it’s really hard
0:08:14 to read the label.
0:08:15 What’s the recommendation here?
0:08:16 What’s the learning?
0:08:17 The learning is
0:08:18 we need age limits, folks.
0:08:19 We have decided
0:08:20 a 34-year-old
0:08:21 doesn’t have the judgment
0:08:22 or the experience
0:08:22 to run for the land’s
0:08:23 highest office
0:08:24 than someone at 75
0:08:25 probably doesn’t have
0:08:27 the cognitive faculty
0:08:28 or the judgment
0:08:29 or, quite frankly,
0:08:30 it’s just not as robust
0:08:31 and presents too much
0:08:32 of a health risk.
0:08:33 What if President Biden
0:08:34 was president right now?
0:08:36 My guess is
0:08:37 he would probably still,
0:08:38 he probably wouldn’t
0:08:39 handle the reins,
0:08:39 hand the reins over
0:08:40 to Vice President Harris.
0:08:41 He’d still think
0:08:42 that he could handle everything
0:08:43 and we would have
0:08:44 a nation that is somewhat
0:08:45 in chaos
0:08:46 or a little bit leaderless
0:08:47 than Pennsylvania Avenue.
0:08:48 I still think that would be
0:08:49 better than what we have
0:08:51 but that’s absolutely
0:08:52 what we shouldn’t do.
0:08:53 We need age limits also.
0:08:54 It’s the kinder thing to do.
0:08:56 It’s the kindest thing to do
0:08:58 because a lot of these people
0:08:59 feel like when they give up
0:08:59 their profession
0:09:00 that they’re essentially
0:09:01 going home to die.
0:09:02 And actually,
0:09:03 there’s some truth to that,
0:09:04 that mortality rates increase
0:09:05 when you stop working.
0:09:06 But when you have
0:09:08 a mandatory retirement age
0:09:09 as they do for the Supreme Court
0:09:09 in the UK
0:09:10 and they do across
0:09:11 many corporations
0:09:13 and in many government positions
0:09:14 around the world,
0:09:15 it creates,
0:09:18 it gets rid of the anxiety.
0:09:19 It’s the kind thing to do.
0:09:19 It’s the right thing to do.
0:09:20 It’s the best thing
0:09:20 for the nation.
0:09:21 So rather than playing
0:09:22 in a blame game
0:09:23 and getting angry
0:09:24 for Jake and Alex
0:09:26 for trying to promote their book,
0:09:27 rather than blaming
0:09:28 the Biden family,
0:09:29 we can absolutely,
0:09:29 or the people around them,
0:09:30 we can absolutely,
0:09:31 in my opinion,
0:09:32 see how this happened.
0:09:33 Anyways, with that,
0:09:34 here’s our conversation
0:09:35 with Jake Tapper
0:09:36 and Alex Thompson.
0:09:48 Jake, where does this podcast find you?
0:09:49 I am at Penn Law School
0:09:51 where my dad and C.J. Rice
0:09:52 and I just did a seminar
0:09:54 on criminal justice.
0:09:55 I don’t know if you know
0:09:56 the C.J. Rice story,
0:09:56 but my dad
0:09:59 and then slightly me
0:10:01 helped get an innocent man
0:10:01 out of prison.
0:10:03 Oh, that’s nice.
0:10:04 That must be rewarding
0:10:05 to be able to work
0:10:05 with your father.
0:10:07 Yeah, it was pretty cool.
0:10:09 That’s great.
0:10:09 And Alex,
0:10:11 where does this podcast find you?
0:10:12 I’m in D.C.
0:10:12 in my apartment.
0:10:14 That’s not nearly
0:10:15 as cool a story.
0:10:16 Jake wins.
0:10:17 Jake is winning so far.
0:10:18 I didn’t get anyone
0:10:19 out of prison,
0:10:21 didn’t do anything.
0:10:23 Just my apartment
0:10:24 with too many books.
0:10:25 All right,
0:10:26 let’s bust right into it.
0:10:27 Your new book,
0:10:28 Original Sin,
0:10:29 explores what you call
0:10:31 the original sin
0:10:32 of the 2024 election,
0:10:33 President Biden’s decision
0:10:35 to seek re-election,
0:10:36 followed by a full-scale effort
0:10:38 to conceal his cognitive decline
0:10:39 throughout the campaign.
0:10:41 I’ll start with a bunch
0:10:42 of theses because Alex,
0:10:42 Jake knows this,
0:10:43 but Alex doesn’t.
0:10:44 This podcast is just basically
0:10:45 an excuse for me
0:10:46 to talk about me
0:10:46 and my views.
0:10:48 My sense is that
0:10:49 I read this book
0:10:51 called What It Takes,
0:10:52 and it covered,
0:10:53 I think,
0:10:54 like the 84 election
0:10:55 and all the candidates,
0:10:56 and it basically wrote
0:10:57 a 100-page biography
0:10:57 on all the candidates.
0:10:58 One of them was Biden.
0:11:00 88, but yeah.
0:11:01 It was 88.
0:11:01 Thank you, Jake.
0:11:02 Jake,
0:11:04 it’s my fucking podcast.
0:11:05 Don’t correct me.
0:11:08 You may be a big
0:11:09 swinging dick at CNN,
0:11:10 but I don’t put up
0:11:10 with that shit here.
0:11:11 So look,
0:11:13 after reading that book,
0:11:14 the takeaway I had
0:11:15 from Biden
0:11:16 was that he was
0:11:17 a raging narcissist.
0:11:19 And when I look
0:11:21 at Dianne Feinstein
0:11:23 or Ruth Bader Ginsburg,
0:11:24 you know,
0:11:26 this has really plagued us,
0:11:27 was this narcissism
0:11:28 that these people
0:11:28 don’t want to acknowledge
0:11:30 that maybe they aren’t
0:11:31 up to the job.
0:11:33 your thoughts on,
0:11:33 I mean,
0:11:34 at the end of the day,
0:11:36 he decided to stay in.
0:11:37 Wasn’t this,
0:11:38 wasn’t he infected
0:11:39 with narcissism?
0:11:40 I’ve even heard now
0:11:41 that he’s reflecting,
0:11:42 but he’s not reflecting
0:11:43 on his mistake.
0:11:44 He’s reflecting on
0:11:45 whether he would have won.
0:11:46 Biden,
0:11:47 narcissism that was
0:11:48 bad for the country,
0:11:50 put himself before the country.
0:11:51 Dots.
0:11:52 You know,
0:11:53 it’s interesting
0:11:54 that you reference
0:11:54 what it takes
0:11:56 because Joe Biden
0:11:58 liked his portrayal
0:11:58 in what it takes.
0:11:59 In fact,
0:12:01 he had the research
0:12:02 of what it takes
0:12:03 to write both
0:12:04 of his memoirs,
0:12:05 ghostwrite both
0:12:05 of his memoirs.
0:12:07 I agree with you
0:12:07 that he didn’t
0:12:08 totally understand
0:12:10 the portrayal
0:12:11 and some of the
0:12:12 damning parts of it.
0:12:13 And I do think
0:12:14 that Joe Biden,
0:12:17 especially in 2022,
0:12:17 early 2023,
0:12:19 sort of saw himself
0:12:21 as an indispensable man,
0:12:22 right?
0:12:23 The world’s on fire,
0:12:25 Putin’s on the march,
0:12:28 and he can save it
0:12:29 in its own way.
0:12:30 It’s his own version
0:12:31 of I alone can fix it.
0:12:33 I’m curious,
0:12:34 Jake,
0:12:34 what you think
0:12:37 when I have the receipts here,
0:12:38 but very early on,
0:12:38 I’m like,
0:12:39 this guy’s too old
0:12:41 and that also
0:12:42 that Vice President Harris
0:12:43 would make a great
0:12:44 Supreme Court justice
0:12:45 and a terrible candidate.
0:12:45 This is someone
0:12:46 who didn’t make it to Iowa
0:12:49 in the previous campaign.
0:12:50 And I started getting
0:12:52 text messages
0:12:53 from some of the people
0:12:54 we both know
0:12:55 saying,
0:12:55 Scott,
0:12:57 do you not understand
0:12:58 the assignment here?
0:12:59 You’re about to get
0:13:00 Trump reelected.
0:13:02 And quite frankly,
0:13:03 and I’m not proud of this,
0:13:04 I acquiesced.
0:13:07 I signed up
0:13:08 because I was so scared
0:13:09 of a Trump re-election
0:13:10 and everyone convinced me
0:13:12 this was the only path forward.
0:13:12 I’m curious
0:13:15 what your experience was
0:13:15 with that.
0:13:16 A,
0:13:16 did you register
0:13:17 that same kind of pressure?
0:13:18 And what was the
0:13:19 behind-the-scenes
0:13:21 kind of arm-twisting
0:13:22 across the media
0:13:23 powerful or elite?
0:13:25 You’re right
0:13:25 that there is
0:13:26 this huge pressure
0:13:29 of what’s wrong
0:13:29 with you.
0:13:31 Do you want Trump
0:13:32 in this Manichean world
0:13:33 like the Manichean world,
0:13:34 the idea that we’re
0:13:35 supposed to be
0:13:36 on one side
0:13:36 or the other?
0:13:38 And if you are
0:13:39 criticizing Joe Biden
0:13:40 for anything,
0:13:42 you obviously are MAGA.
0:13:44 I went through that
0:13:46 in 2020,
0:13:49 more in 2021
0:13:51 when I provided
0:13:52 very critical coverage
0:13:53 of the withdrawal
0:13:54 from Afghanistan.
0:13:57 And I think
0:13:58 they just always
0:13:58 thought I was
0:13:59 a pain in the ass
0:14:00 that it didn’t
0:14:01 bother me as much,
0:14:03 which is not to say
0:14:03 that I covered
0:14:04 in retrospect
0:14:05 the aging
0:14:06 and cognition issue
0:14:07 as much as I wish
0:14:08 I had,
0:14:09 knowing now
0:14:10 what Alex and I
0:14:12 were able to learn
0:14:13 after the election,
0:14:14 interviewing more than
0:14:16 200 mostly Democratic
0:14:17 insiders
0:14:18 on stuff that they
0:14:19 wouldn’t talk to us
0:14:20 about until the election
0:14:21 was over.
0:14:22 I do think that there
0:14:23 is a degree of media
0:14:24 complicity that we
0:14:25 can talk about,
0:14:28 but the bottom line
0:14:29 really is
0:14:31 that President Biden,
0:14:32 his family,
0:14:33 and his top aides
0:14:35 lied.
0:14:36 They lied to the press.
0:14:38 They lied to the public.
0:14:39 They lied to their own
0:14:39 cabinet secretaries.
0:14:40 They lied to
0:14:41 White House staffers.
0:14:43 They lied to Democratic
0:14:44 elected officials
0:14:47 and it was a lie
0:14:48 made evident
0:14:49 to the world.
0:14:51 Well, first of all,
0:14:52 I mean, as you know,
0:14:53 the public was
0:14:54 long skeptical
0:14:55 of his ability
0:14:56 to do this job,
0:14:57 but it was a lie
0:14:57 that was
0:15:00 almost unrefutable,
0:15:01 irrefutable
0:15:04 after the June 27th debate.
0:15:05 So,
0:15:06 while I can
0:15:08 point to any number
0:15:08 of individuals,
0:15:10 including myself
0:15:11 and every single
0:15:11 human being
0:15:12 outside the White House
0:15:13 who wasn’t
0:15:14 constantly shouting
0:15:14 about this,
0:15:15 the emperor
0:15:16 has no clothes,
0:15:17 I do think
0:15:18 at the end of the day
0:15:19 the man that you
0:15:20 called a narcissist
0:15:23 and his support network,
0:15:24 his inner circle,
0:15:26 are chiefly responsible
0:15:29 for this lie’s strength
0:15:31 as long as it existed.
0:15:33 Alex, I’m curious.
0:15:34 I remember thinking,
0:15:36 where’s his wife?
0:15:38 It just,
0:15:39 you know,
0:15:40 when you think
0:15:41 about your family
0:15:42 and their role,
0:15:44 you trust them,
0:15:45 you know they have
0:15:45 your best interests
0:15:46 at heart.
0:15:47 I’m curious
0:15:48 if you have any
0:15:49 inside,
0:15:50 you know,
0:15:52 information or knowledge
0:15:53 here or reporting
0:15:54 around
0:15:56 what First Lady
0:15:57 Biden’s role
0:15:58 was or was not
0:15:59 in this process.
0:16:00 You know,
0:16:01 Jill Biden used to be
0:16:01 a reluctant
0:16:02 political spouse.
0:16:03 You know,
0:16:04 in 2004,
0:16:06 she has this story
0:16:07 where she literally
0:16:08 walked into
0:16:09 a political meeting
0:16:10 that was about
0:16:11 Biden running
0:16:11 for president
0:16:12 in 2004
0:16:14 with a no
0:16:15 and a sharpie
0:16:16 written on her stomach
0:16:17 while she was
0:16:17 in a bikini.
0:16:18 She just like
0:16:19 strode through
0:16:19 the meeting.
0:16:21 who hasn’t done
0:16:21 that?
0:16:22 Yeah.
0:16:25 That changes
0:16:27 and starting in like
0:16:27 2017,
0:16:28 2018,
0:16:29 2019,
0:16:30 she becomes
0:16:31 not just,
0:16:32 you know,
0:16:32 an unwilling
0:16:33 political spouse.
0:16:34 She becomes
0:16:34 an enthusiastic
0:16:37 and in a huge part
0:16:38 of his political
0:16:39 decision-making
0:16:40 and operation,
0:16:41 her chief aide
0:16:43 becomes a deputy
0:16:44 campaign manager
0:16:45 on the 2020
0:16:45 effort.
0:16:46 Very unusual
0:16:48 for the aide
0:16:48 to a spouse
0:16:49 to have that
0:16:49 sort of role.
0:16:50 He then also
0:16:51 becomes one of
0:16:52 the most powerful
0:16:53 people in the
0:16:54 White House.
0:16:55 He’s vetting
0:16:56 certain aides.
0:16:57 He’s often
0:16:57 vetting people
0:16:58 for loyalty.
0:17:00 He had enormous
0:17:01 control over the
0:17:02 schedule and would
0:17:03 often, you know,
0:17:05 say, oh, you know,
0:17:05 the first lady’s not
0:17:06 going to like this.
0:17:07 They would throw
0:17:08 that around a lot
0:17:09 of the time.
0:17:09 So the combination
0:17:10 of the two of them
0:17:12 had enormous power
0:17:13 in the White House
0:17:14 and there was
0:17:15 this feeling that
0:17:16 even though he was
0:17:17 80 and was about
0:17:18 to run for
0:17:18 re-election,
0:17:20 none of the
0:17:21 senior people in
0:17:22 the White House
0:17:22 got in his face
0:17:24 and said,
0:17:25 maybe we shouldn’t
0:17:25 do this.
0:17:27 And part of the
0:17:27 reason, now that
0:17:29 I think speaks to
0:17:30 their own
0:17:31 lack of courage,
0:17:33 but part of the
0:17:33 reason was that
0:17:34 this environment
0:17:35 had been set up,
0:17:36 and I think Jill
0:17:37 was an indispensable
0:17:38 part of this,
0:17:40 of where loyalty
0:17:41 was the first
0:17:42 virtue
0:17:43 and most
0:17:44 important virtue.
0:17:45 And if you
0:17:46 questioned,
0:17:47 then it
0:17:48 automatically got
0:17:48 to the First
0:17:49 Lady and then
0:17:50 that would get
0:17:51 back to Joe.
0:17:51 So I think
0:17:52 that was part
0:17:54 of how she
0:17:55 pushed.
0:17:55 And I think
0:17:56 if you watch
0:17:57 his appearance
0:17:58 on The View
0:17:59 the other week,
0:18:00 I think you can
0:18:02 see how she
0:18:03 took her role
0:18:03 as a loving
0:18:04 spouse and protector
0:18:06 and how it
0:18:08 went to lengths
0:18:09 that eventually
0:18:10 became, you
0:18:12 know, covering
0:18:13 up for his
0:18:14 deficiencies.
0:18:15 Well, somebody
0:18:15 close to the
0:18:17 family told
0:18:19 us that
0:18:20 of all the
0:18:20 mottos, you
0:18:21 hear about my
0:18:21 word is a
0:18:22 Biden, et
0:18:23 cetera, et
0:18:23 cetera, but
0:18:24 there’s one that
0:18:24 Joe Biden
0:18:26 doesn’t share
0:18:26 on the stump.
0:18:27 It’s crude.
0:18:29 It’s never
0:18:29 call a fat
0:18:30 person fat.
0:18:32 And what
0:18:33 it means is
0:18:34 not please
0:18:35 be polite.
0:18:36 It’s don’t
0:18:37 point out ugly
0:18:38 truths.
0:18:39 And this is a
0:18:41 family motto
0:18:41 that might not
0:18:42 be on the
0:18:43 Biden family
0:18:44 crest, but it
0:18:45 explains a lot.
0:18:48 It explains why
0:18:49 they lied to
0:18:51 the public about
0:18:52 Beau and his
0:18:54 health, why
0:18:55 they were in
0:18:56 denial about
0:18:58 Hunter’s
0:18:59 condition and
0:19:00 their daughter’s
0:19:01 condition.
0:19:02 both of them
0:19:03 struggling with
0:19:03 addiction.
0:19:05 It’s the
0:19:07 lie of Joe
0:19:08 Biden cares
0:19:08 about his
0:19:08 family more
0:19:09 than he cares
0:19:10 about his
0:19:10 own ambition.
0:19:11 It’s not
0:19:12 true.
0:19:13 Probably not
0:19:15 true for most
0:19:15 presidents, if
0:19:16 not all
0:19:16 presidents, but
0:19:20 there is a
0:19:21 belief in the
0:19:22 mythology of
0:19:23 Joe Biden that
0:19:24 for his
0:19:24 family and
0:19:25 closest aides
0:19:27 becomes not
0:19:27 just a
0:19:28 mythology, it
0:19:29 becomes a
0:19:29 theology.
0:19:30 and like
0:19:31 any
0:19:31 theology,
0:19:33 skeptics are
0:19:34 not welcome.
0:19:35 And that’s
0:19:36 one of the
0:19:36 ways that they
0:19:37 got to the
0:19:38 place where
0:19:38 they were
0:19:40 putting Joe
0:19:42 Biden ahead of
0:19:43 everything.
0:19:45 They believed
0:19:45 that he was the
0:19:46 singular man who
0:19:47 could save NATO
0:19:49 and protect Ukraine,
0:19:50 protect the
0:19:50 country from
0:19:51 Donald Trump.
0:19:53 Just such a
0:19:54 denial of
0:19:55 realities.
0:19:56 Don’t call a
0:19:57 fat person fat.
0:19:58 money.
0:19:58 To the point
0:19:59 that ultimately
0:20:01 the whole
0:20:01 country was
0:20:02 like, okay,
0:20:03 this can’t go
0:20:04 on anymore.
0:20:04 We’ve never
0:20:05 seen anything
0:20:05 like this
0:20:05 before.
0:20:07 So you
0:20:08 talked to
0:20:09 200 people.
0:20:09 What were
0:20:10 some of the,
0:20:10 give us a few
0:20:11 of the most
0:20:12 surprising findings
0:20:13 that were sort
0:20:14 of like, whoa.
0:20:15 There’s so
0:20:16 many.
0:20:16 I mean,
0:20:19 the fact that
0:20:20 in December
0:20:21 2022,
0:20:23 he couldn’t
0:20:24 come up with
0:20:24 the name,
0:20:25 in the middle
0:20:25 of the day,
0:20:27 he couldn’t
0:20:27 come up with
0:20:27 the name
0:20:28 of his
0:20:29 national security
0:20:29 advisor,
0:20:30 Jake Sullivan,
0:20:31 or his
0:20:31 communications
0:20:32 director,
0:20:33 Kate Bedingfield.
0:20:33 He didn’t,
0:20:34 he called
0:20:36 Jake Steve,
0:20:36 and he called
0:20:37 Kate Press.
0:20:39 The fact that
0:20:39 behind the
0:20:40 scenes,
0:20:43 as far
0:20:43 back as
0:20:44 April
0:20:44 2023,
0:20:46 he was
0:20:47 having moments
0:20:47 where
0:20:48 Democratic
0:20:49 Congressman
0:20:50 Mike Quigley
0:20:50 of Illinois
0:20:51 saw him
0:20:52 and it
0:20:53 reminded him
0:20:53 of his
0:20:54 father who
0:20:54 had passed
0:20:54 away from
0:20:55 Parkinson’s.
0:20:56 That’s to
0:20:56 the extent
0:20:57 of how
0:20:58 debilitated
0:20:58 he seemed.
0:21:00 I mean,
0:21:01 the fact that
0:21:02 they had
0:21:03 the last
0:21:03 cabinet meeting
0:21:04 that they
0:21:04 had in
0:21:05 almost a
0:21:05 year in
0:21:05 October
0:21:06 2023,
0:21:06 and then
0:21:07 cabinet
0:21:07 secretaries
0:21:08 told us
0:21:08 that the
0:21:09 White House
0:21:11 kept them
0:21:11 at bay,
0:21:13 didn’t allow
0:21:14 them to see
0:21:14 him,
0:21:16 and that
0:21:18 in the
0:21:19 intervening
0:21:19 time,
0:21:19 one of
0:21:19 the
0:21:19 cabinet
0:21:20 secretaries
0:21:20 had a
0:21:20 meeting
0:21:21 with him
0:21:22 and he
0:21:22 seemed
0:21:23 disoriented
0:21:23 and not
0:21:24 with it.
0:21:26 Other
0:21:26 cabinet
0:21:26 secretaries
0:21:27 told us
0:21:27 that,
0:21:27 you know,
0:21:28 that legendary
0:21:29 test of a
0:21:29 president,
0:21:30 can he
0:21:31 manage the
0:21:31 emergency
0:21:32 2 a.m.
0:21:33 phone call?
0:21:34 No.
0:21:35 They didn’t
0:21:35 think he
0:21:36 could by
0:21:36 the end
0:21:36 of his
0:21:37 presidency.
0:21:37 All of
0:21:37 this.
0:21:38 But honestly,
0:21:39 like literally,
0:21:40 when I was
0:21:41 doing the
0:21:41 audio book,
0:21:42 after every
0:21:43 chapter,
0:21:43 I would just
0:21:43 say,
0:21:44 holy shit,
0:21:44 I still
0:21:45 can’t believe
0:21:45 this.
0:21:45 Alex and
0:21:46 I reported
0:21:46 this and
0:21:46 I still
0:21:47 can’t
0:21:47 believe it.
0:21:49 I mean,
0:21:49 I would
0:21:50 also just
0:21:50 add to
0:21:51 that he
0:21:51 didn’t
0:21:52 recognize
0:21:52 George
0:21:52 Clooney.
0:21:54 One of
0:21:54 the most
0:21:55 famous people
0:21:55 in the
0:21:55 world,
0:21:56 someone also
0:21:56 that he
0:21:56 had a
0:21:57 relationship
0:21:57 with,
0:21:57 who had,
0:21:59 when he
0:21:59 was in
0:22:00 the Senate
0:22:01 as chair
0:22:02 of the
0:22:02 Senate
0:22:03 Foreign
0:22:03 Relations
0:22:04 Committee,
0:22:04 you know,
0:22:05 Clooney was
0:22:05 involved in
0:22:05 that.
0:22:06 They’d
0:22:06 known each
0:22:06 other for a
0:22:07 long time.
0:22:08 at that
0:22:08 fundraiser
0:22:09 in June
0:22:10 of 2024,
0:22:11 and an
0:22:12 aide had
0:22:12 to be like,
0:22:13 you remember
0:22:13 George?
0:22:14 And he’s
0:22:14 like, yeah,
0:22:15 yeah, yeah.
0:22:15 And then
0:22:16 George Clooney.
0:22:17 And that
0:22:18 moment is
0:22:19 the seed to
0:22:20 eventually George
0:22:21 Clooney writing
0:22:21 that op-ed.
0:22:23 And I
0:22:24 think that
0:22:24 was just
0:22:25 sort of a
0:22:26 stunning
0:22:27 revelation
0:22:29 and the
0:22:29 fact that
0:22:30 it’s what
0:22:31 sort of
0:22:31 compelled
0:22:32 Clooney to
0:22:32 speak out.
0:22:34 I’m hearing
0:22:35 from all
0:22:35 of these
0:22:36 senior-level
0:22:37 people or
0:22:37 governors,
0:22:38 many of
0:22:38 whom,
0:22:39 some served
0:22:40 in the
0:22:40 administration,
0:22:40 and when
0:22:41 people reach
0:22:41 out to
0:22:41 me,
0:22:44 and they
0:22:44 quote-unquote,
0:22:44 they say,
0:22:45 I’d love to
0:22:45 get your
0:22:46 views on
0:22:46 something,
0:22:46 which is
0:22:47 Latin for
0:22:47 I’m running
0:22:48 for president
0:22:48 and want
0:22:48 to come
0:22:48 on your
0:22:49 podcast.
0:22:51 And it
0:22:52 strikes me
0:22:53 that one
0:22:53 of the
0:22:53 biggest
0:22:54 missed
0:22:54 opportunities
0:22:56 was in
0:22:56 as elegant
0:22:57 and kind
0:22:58 a way
0:22:58 possible
0:22:58 for
0:22:59 someone
0:22:59 like
0:22:59 Governor
0:23:00 Newsom
0:23:00 or
0:23:01 Secretary
0:23:02 Buttigieg to
0:23:02 say,
0:23:03 look,
0:23:04 I adore
0:23:05 the man,
0:23:06 but I’m
0:23:06 running for
0:23:06 president.
0:23:08 And it
0:23:09 just struck
0:23:09 me that
0:23:11 nobody did.
0:23:11 Well,
0:23:12 Dean Phillips
0:23:12 did,
0:23:13 but yeah,
0:23:13 no major
0:23:14 character did.
0:23:14 I had
0:23:15 Representative
0:23:15 Phillips
0:23:15 on the
0:23:16 pod,
0:23:16 I think a
0:23:16 lot of
0:23:17 him,
0:23:17 and I
0:23:17 think he’s
0:23:17 going to
0:23:18 be,
0:23:18 I think
0:23:18 he’s a
0:23:18 great
0:23:19 representative.
0:23:19 I just
0:23:20 don’t
0:23:20 think he
0:23:20 had much
0:23:21 of a
0:23:22 shot
0:23:22 there.
0:23:22 I don’t
0:23:23 think he
0:23:23 was much
0:23:23 of a,
0:23:23 I don’t
0:23:24 think he
0:23:24 was a
0:23:24 credible
0:23:24 candidate.
0:23:26 I mean,
0:23:26 I don’t
0:23:26 want to
0:23:27 say they’re
0:23:28 to blame,
0:23:29 but didn’t
0:23:29 they,
0:23:30 it just
0:23:31 struck me,
0:23:31 it got so
0:23:32 bad at the
0:23:32 end.
0:23:33 And what
0:23:34 was it?
0:23:34 Was it
0:23:35 they thought
0:23:35 they would
0:23:36 immediately
0:23:38 render their
0:23:39 future ambitions
0:23:42 less likely
0:23:42 because a
0:23:42 democratic
0:23:43 machine would
0:23:44 remember their
0:23:45 lack of
0:23:45 loyalty?
0:23:46 It just
0:23:46 felt like
0:23:47 there was
0:23:47 such a
0:23:48 vacuum for
0:23:49 someone to
0:23:49 just raise
0:23:50 their hand
0:23:50 and say,
0:23:51 love the
0:23:51 guy,
0:23:52 we’ll
0:23:52 support him
0:23:53 if he’s
0:23:53 a nominee,
0:23:54 but I’m
0:23:54 throwing my
0:23:55 hat in the
0:23:55 ring.
0:23:55 How come
0:23:56 that didn’t
0:23:56 happen?
0:23:57 It’s a
0:23:57 great
0:23:58 question.
0:23:58 I think
0:23:59 that first
0:23:59 of all,
0:23:59 he was
0:24:00 incumbent
0:24:00 president,
0:24:01 and that’s
0:24:02 very
0:24:02 difficult
0:24:03 to do.
0:24:04 And usually
0:24:05 when you
0:24:05 do that,
0:24:06 whether you
0:24:07 are Pat
0:24:08 Buchanan
0:24:09 or Ted
0:24:09 Kennedy,
0:24:10 you are
0:24:11 tarred with
0:24:11 the
0:24:12 disloyal
0:24:13 label.
0:24:14 That said,
0:24:16 there were
0:24:17 efforts to
0:24:17 try to
0:24:19 get a
0:24:20 Pritzker
0:24:21 or a
0:24:21 Whitmer
0:24:21 or a
0:24:22 Newsom
0:24:23 to run.
0:24:24 Bill
0:24:24 Daley,
0:24:25 the former
0:24:26 Obama
0:24:26 White House
0:24:27 chief of
0:24:27 staff,
0:24:28 tried to
0:24:29 get them
0:24:29 to.
0:24:30 Dean
0:24:31 Phillips
0:24:32 tried to
0:24:32 get them
0:24:33 to before
0:24:33 he became
0:24:34 a nominee.
0:24:34 We have
0:24:35 a whole
0:24:35 chapter on
0:24:36 Congressman
0:24:36 Phillips.
0:24:39 And the
0:24:39 truth of
0:24:39 the matter
0:24:40 is, you
0:24:40 know, you
0:24:41 read this
0:24:42 book, there
0:24:42 is not a
0:24:42 lot of
0:24:43 courage.
0:24:45 There’s not
0:24:46 a lot of
0:24:46 risk.
0:24:47 And it’s
0:24:48 a risky
0:24:48 venture to
0:24:49 say I’m
0:24:49 going to
0:24:49 challenge the
0:24:50 incumbent
0:24:51 president.
0:24:51 What I
0:24:52 wonder more
0:24:53 than that
0:24:54 is where
0:24:56 was the
0:24:58 group of
0:24:59 Democrats.
0:25:01 Parties are
0:25:01 so weak
0:25:02 these days.
0:25:02 But where
0:25:03 was the
0:25:05 DNC chair,
0:25:06 Democratic
0:25:06 leader of
0:25:06 the Senate,
0:25:07 Democratic
0:25:07 leader of
0:25:08 the House
0:25:09 to say,
0:25:10 look, you
0:25:11 are historically
0:25:12 unpopular.
0:25:13 And beyond
0:25:14 that, you’re
0:25:15 having moments
0:25:17 that I
0:25:18 think that you
0:25:18 should think
0:25:19 about retiring
0:25:21 and going
0:25:21 out on top.
0:25:23 But they
0:25:23 didn’t do
0:25:24 that either.
0:25:24 And in
0:25:25 fact, even
0:25:25 towards the
0:25:27 end, the
0:25:27 only person
0:25:28 we could find
0:25:29 who directly
0:25:31 told President
0:25:31 Biden, I
0:25:32 don’t think
0:25:32 he should run
0:25:34 again, was
0:25:34 Chuck Schumer
0:25:35 at the very,
0:25:37 very end, one
0:25:37 week before he
0:25:38 dropped out.
0:25:41 Even the Nancy
0:25:41 Pelosi’s and
0:25:42 Barack Obama’s
0:25:43 Hakeem Jeffries
0:25:44 did not directly
0:25:45 say it.
0:25:45 They would say
0:25:46 things like,
0:25:47 we just want to
0:25:47 make sure you
0:25:48 have all the
0:25:48 access to all
0:25:49 the information.
0:25:49 You need all
0:25:49 the polling
0:25:50 information.
0:25:52 I don’t know
0:25:53 that Joe Biden
0:25:53 would have ever
0:25:54 dropped out.
0:25:54 no matter
0:25:54 what.
0:25:55 I think he
0:25:56 only dropped
0:25:56 out at the
0:25:56 very, very
0:25:57 end because
0:25:58 he had to.
0:25:58 It would have
0:25:59 been a disaster.
0:25:59 It would have
0:25:59 been a bloody
0:26:00 convention.
0:26:02 But that said,
0:26:03 yeah, nobody
0:26:04 really acquits
0:26:04 themselves very
0:26:05 well in this.
0:26:07 I was under
0:26:07 the impression
0:26:08 the relationship
0:26:08 between him
0:26:09 and Obama
0:26:09 was very
0:26:10 strained,
0:26:11 in that Obama
0:26:13 saw the writing
0:26:13 on the wall,
0:26:15 but President
0:26:15 Biden had
0:26:15 already sort
0:26:16 of shut
0:26:16 him out.
0:26:17 Is that
0:26:18 true?
0:26:20 yes, and
0:26:21 Obama is
0:26:22 very aware
0:26:22 of that,
0:26:23 which is
0:26:24 why, despite
0:26:25 I think some
0:26:26 of the narrative
0:26:27 that Obama
0:26:27 was the one
0:26:28 that pushed
0:26:29 Biden out,
0:26:30 he was involved,
0:26:31 but he was
0:26:31 aware enough
0:26:32 of Biden’s
0:26:33 resentments
0:26:35 that he was
0:26:37 wary of seeming
0:26:38 involved because
0:26:38 he knew it would
0:26:39 just make Biden
0:26:40 dig in more.
0:26:41 And the reason
0:26:41 the relationship
0:26:42 is strained,
0:26:42 there’s two
0:26:43 reasons.
0:26:43 One’s political,
0:26:44 one’s personal.
0:26:45 One is that
0:26:46 Biden and the
0:26:47 people around him
0:26:48 have never
0:26:48 gotten over
0:26:49 that Obama
0:26:50 favored Hillary
0:26:51 as the successor
0:26:51 rather than
0:26:53 Biden in 2016.
0:26:54 He wrote about
0:26:54 it in his
0:26:55 memoir, but
0:26:56 it’s still
0:26:56 something that
0:26:58 enrages them
0:26:59 that Obama
0:26:59 never took me
0:27:00 seriously,
0:27:02 never gave me
0:27:03 the full credit.
0:27:04 And there’s
0:27:05 a personal one
0:27:05 too, and
0:27:07 Hunter Biden’s
0:27:08 ex-wife,
0:27:08 now ex-wife,
0:27:10 is very good
0:27:10 friends with
0:27:11 Michelle Obama.
0:27:12 It’s why
0:27:13 Michelle Obama
0:27:14 resisted
0:27:15 campaigning for
0:27:15 Joe Biden
0:27:16 in 2020.
0:27:17 It didn’t get
0:27:18 much noticed
0:27:19 because of
0:27:20 COVID, and
0:27:21 it’s also why
0:27:22 she was
0:27:23 resistant to
0:27:23 campaigning for
0:27:24 him in
0:27:25 2024.
0:27:26 That
0:27:28 relationship,
0:27:29 there is a
0:27:30 rift there.
0:27:31 Now, the
0:27:31 Obama people
0:27:32 will be like,
0:27:33 we like Joe,
0:27:34 we don’t have
0:27:34 any resentments.
0:27:35 The resentments
0:27:36 mostly seem to
0:27:38 be on the
0:27:39 Biden side
0:27:40 toward the
0:27:40 Obama’s.
0:27:42 Give us
0:27:42 some insight
0:27:42 into the
0:27:43 relationship.
0:27:44 My thesis
0:27:45 has always
0:27:45 been that
0:27:48 competition and
0:27:48 politics make
0:27:49 strange bedfellows,
0:27:51 but I’ve
0:27:51 always felt that
0:27:51 the reason
0:27:52 Vice President
0:27:53 Harris, who
0:27:53 was an
0:27:54 immensely qualified
0:27:55 person, but the
0:27:55 reason she got the
0:27:56 nod to be the
0:27:56 vice president was
0:27:57 because she
0:27:57 called the
0:27:58 President Biden
0:27:59 a racist on a
0:27:59 debate stage, so
0:28:00 they thought of
0:28:00 her as a
0:28:00 fighter.
0:28:02 I don’t think
0:28:02 so.
0:28:04 I think that
0:28:05 almost cost her
0:28:05 the nomination
0:28:06 because Jill
0:28:07 Biden was
0:28:08 so resentful
0:28:09 of it.
0:28:10 At the end
0:28:11 of the day,
0:28:12 he had promised
0:28:13 he would pick a
0:28:13 woman vice
0:28:14 president.
0:28:14 He never
0:28:15 promised he
0:28:15 would pick an
0:28:16 African-American
0:28:17 woman vice
0:28:17 president.
0:28:17 He said he’d
0:28:18 pick an
0:28:18 African-American
0:28:19 woman Supreme
0:28:20 Court justice,
0:28:20 but it kind of
0:28:21 became this
0:28:23 thing after
0:28:24 George Floyd
0:28:25 and the
0:28:26 protests there
0:28:26 that he felt
0:28:27 like he had
0:28:27 to pick a
0:28:28 black woman.
0:28:29 It really,
0:28:30 at the end of
0:28:30 the day,
0:28:31 truly came
0:28:31 down to
0:28:33 Kamala Harris,
0:28:34 who had been
0:28:35 in the view
0:28:35 of the Biden
0:28:37 team vetted
0:28:37 on a national
0:28:38 stage because
0:28:39 she had been
0:28:40 a candidate
0:28:40 for president,
0:28:41 even though,
0:28:41 as you point
0:28:41 out, she
0:28:42 didn’t even
0:28:42 make it to
0:28:44 2020, much
0:28:44 less Iowa.
0:28:45 And even
0:28:46 though they
0:28:47 were publicly
0:28:48 talking about
0:28:49 people like
0:28:50 Congresswoman
0:28:52 Karen Bass,
0:28:52 who’s now the
0:28:53 mayor of Los
0:28:53 Angeles, and
0:28:54 Congresswoman
0:28:55 Val Demings
0:28:55 from Florida,
0:28:56 those two
0:28:57 weren’t really
0:28:57 in the final
0:28:58 two.
0:28:59 It was Gretchen
0:28:59 Whitmer of
0:28:59 Michigan,
0:29:01 and Kamala
0:29:02 Harris.
0:29:03 Biden liked
0:29:04 Whitmer more.
0:29:05 He had more
0:29:05 affection for
0:29:06 her, saw
0:29:07 her as more
0:29:08 of a Biden
0:29:09 Democrat type
0:29:11 from a gritty
0:29:14 Midwestern state.
0:29:15 But at the
0:29:15 end of the
0:29:16 day, just
0:29:19 the image
0:29:20 of him
0:29:22 with Kamala
0:29:22 Harris, who
0:29:23 was of the
0:29:24 progressive left
0:29:25 at that point,
0:29:26 even though she
0:29:27 really previously
0:29:28 had been more
0:29:29 of a moderate
0:29:30 in California,
0:29:32 African-American
0:29:33 woman,
0:29:34 vetted, had
0:29:35 gone after him
0:29:36 in the debate.
0:29:37 And so there
0:29:37 were people on
0:29:38 the staff who
0:29:38 thought, well,
0:29:39 this shows that
0:29:40 he’s like bigger
0:29:41 than that sort
0:29:41 of thing.
0:29:43 But Jill Biden
0:29:44 really, really
0:29:45 resented her.
0:29:46 And while
0:29:47 President Biden
0:29:48 and Kamala
0:29:49 Harris, I think,
0:29:50 developed a
0:29:51 genuine warmth,
0:29:53 theirs was not
0:29:54 the partnership
0:29:55 of a Bush
0:29:56 and Cheney,
0:29:57 or a Clinton
0:29:58 and Gore,
0:29:59 or an Obama
0:29:59 and Biden,
0:30:01 she was
0:30:02 relegated to
0:30:03 lesser tasks.
0:30:04 The team
0:30:04 never really
0:30:05 thought of her
0:30:07 as the
0:30:07 heir apparent
0:30:08 until the
0:30:09 very end.
0:30:09 In fact,
0:30:10 they would use
0:30:10 her as an
0:30:11 excuse as to
0:30:11 why Biden
0:30:12 couldn’t step
0:30:12 down.
0:30:13 You want
0:30:13 Kamala to be
0:30:14 the nominee?
0:30:15 She’s less
0:30:16 popular than
0:30:16 Biden.
0:30:19 which enraged
0:30:19 other Democrats
0:30:21 because it was
0:30:21 like, you
0:30:22 picked her.
0:30:23 Some people
0:30:24 in the Biden
0:30:24 world have
0:30:26 quipped, you
0:30:26 know, actually
0:30:27 the original
0:30:27 sin was picking
0:30:28 her because,
0:30:30 you know, they
0:30:31 felt that she
0:30:32 was not ready
0:30:33 or was not
0:30:33 electable.
0:30:35 But at the
0:30:36 end of the
0:30:36 day, that was
0:30:37 their choice.
0:30:37 And it was,
0:30:38 you know, picking
0:30:39 a vice president
0:30:39 is one of the
0:30:40 most consequential
0:30:42 choices, you
0:30:42 know, a
0:30:42 presidential
0:30:43 candidate faces.
0:30:44 What color
0:30:45 insight can you
0:30:46 provide on the
0:30:47 relationship between
0:30:47 President Biden
0:30:48 and Vice
0:30:49 President Harris
0:30:49 so the public
0:30:50 may not have
0:30:51 that nuance?
0:30:52 You know, there
0:30:53 was a little bit
0:30:54 of strain.
0:30:54 You know, Jake
0:30:56 spoke to some
0:30:56 of this, but,
0:30:57 you know, the
0:30:58 way that Biden
0:30:58 would call her
0:31:00 a kid, right?
0:31:01 Like, I think
0:31:01 Kamala Harris,
0:31:02 according to
0:31:03 people around
0:31:04 her, they
0:31:04 thought, she
0:31:05 thought of
0:31:05 herself as a
0:31:06 peer.
0:31:07 And Biden
0:31:09 saw her as,
0:31:10 you know, a
0:31:11 kid and someone
0:31:11 that had been
0:31:12 really good friends
0:31:13 with his late
0:31:14 son, Beau
0:31:15 Biden, when
0:31:15 they were both
0:31:16 state attorneys
0:31:16 general.
0:31:18 And even
0:31:19 on the staff
0:31:20 level is where
0:31:21 the tension
0:31:22 really was,
0:31:23 where the
0:31:24 Biden team
0:31:25 didn’t think
0:31:27 she was very
0:31:28 good, thought
0:31:29 she was creating
0:31:30 headaches for
0:31:30 them all the
0:31:31 time, was
0:31:34 not, and also
0:31:34 didn’t think she
0:31:35 was, like, a
0:31:35 very nice person.
0:31:37 And to Jake’s
0:31:37 point, they
0:31:39 used that dim
0:31:41 view of her to
0:31:43 rationalize, you
0:31:43 know, running
0:31:44 for re-election.
0:31:46 which is
0:31:47 twisted, because
0:31:47 as you know,
0:31:48 it’s got the,
0:31:49 they could have
0:31:49 made her a
0:31:50 Supreme Court
0:31:51 justice, right?
0:31:52 They could have
0:31:52 said at some
0:31:54 point, when that
0:31:54 position came
0:31:56 open, we’re
0:31:56 going to make
0:31:56 you a Supreme
0:31:57 Court justice,
0:31:58 and, you
0:31:59 know, if you
0:32:00 want to resign
0:32:01 from the court
0:32:02 and run for
0:32:03 president in the
0:32:03 future, that’s
0:32:04 on you, but,
0:32:05 you know, we
0:32:06 got to put
0:32:07 somebody who
0:32:08 we think can
0:32:08 actually be
0:32:09 vice president
0:32:10 and actually be
0:32:11 president, if
0:32:11 need be.
0:32:12 And she
0:32:13 probably, let’s
0:32:14 be honest, I
0:32:15 mean, she’s
0:32:16 certainly not the
0:32:17 legal mind that
0:32:18 Ketanji Brown-Jackson
0:32:19 is, but she
0:32:19 would have been
0:32:20 confirmed.
0:32:21 She’s a senator.
0:32:21 She’s a former
0:32:23 attorney general of
0:32:23 California.
0:32:24 The U.S.
0:32:25 Senate is a
0:32:27 fairly, they love
0:32:28 to sniff each
0:32:28 other.
0:32:29 I mean, you
0:32:31 know, a senator is
0:32:31 good enough for any
0:32:33 position, so I
0:32:33 think she would
0:32:33 have been confirmed.
0:32:34 This is all
0:32:36 Earth-2 stuff, but
0:32:36 if they really
0:32:37 didn’t think she
0:32:38 was qualified, there
0:32:39 was an out right
0:32:39 there.
0:32:41 We’ll be right
0:32:42 back after a
0:32:42 quick break.
0:32:49 Support for
0:32:49 PropG comes from
0:32:50 Vanta.
0:32:51 Starting a
0:32:51 company is
0:32:52 incredibly
0:32:53 gratifying, but
0:32:54 can also be one
0:32:54 of the hardest
0:32:55 things you’ll
0:32:55 ever do, and
0:32:56 one of the
0:32:56 most challenging
0:32:57 parts of it is
0:32:58 making sure that
0:32:58 you’re meeting all
0:32:59 the security
0:33:00 compliance standards
0:33:00 you need to
0:33:00 meet.
0:33:01 Vanta makes
0:33:02 the whole process
0:33:03 easier.
0:33:04 Vanta is a
0:33:04 trust management
0:33:05 platform that
0:33:06 helps businesses
0:33:06 automate security
0:33:07 and compliance,
0:33:08 enabling them to
0:33:09 demonstrate strong
0:33:10 security practices
0:33:11 and scale.
0:33:12 That means that
0:33:13 a whole bunch of
0:33:13 tasks that used
0:33:14 to be expensive,
0:33:15 time-consuming,
0:33:16 and complex can
0:33:17 now be automated
0:33:18 and streamlined.
0:33:19 Simply put, your
0:33:20 company can’t grow
0:33:21 if it can’t prove
0:33:22 that it’s meeting
0:33:23 security standards
0:33:24 including SOC-2,
0:33:26 ISO 27001, and
0:33:26 HIPAA.
0:33:28 Vanta can get you
0:33:29 audit-ready in
0:33:29 weeks instead of
0:33:30 months, saving you
0:33:31 up to 85% of
0:33:32 associated costs.
0:33:34 And Vanta scales
0:33:34 with your business,
0:33:35 helping you
0:33:36 continuously monitor
0:33:37 compliance, unify
0:33:38 risk management, and
0:33:39 streamline security
0:33:40 reviews, all the
0:33:41 all in one place.
0:33:42 Starting a business
0:33:43 is hard.
0:33:44 Let Vanta make the
0:33:45 process a little bit
0:33:45 easier.
0:33:46 Go to Vanta.com
0:33:47 slash PropG to
0:33:48 meet with a Vanta
0:33:49 expert about your
0:33:50 business needs.
0:33:51 That’s Vanta.com
0:33:52 slash PropG.
0:33:58 support for the show
0:33:58 support for the show
0:33:59 comes from Mercury,
0:34:00 the banking product
0:34:01 that feels extraordinary
0:34:02 to use.
0:34:03 When you’re a startup
0:34:04 founder getting your
0:34:04 business off the
0:34:05 ground, the last
0:34:06 thing you want to be
0:34:06 doing is toggling
0:34:07 between a dozen
0:34:08 apps and clunky
0:34:09 banking services that
0:34:09 can barely keep up
0:34:10 with your needs.
0:34:12 Enter Mercury.
0:34:13 Mercury is the
0:34:14 banking product made
0:34:15 by entrepreneurs for
0:34:15 entrepreneurs.
0:34:16 What makes it so
0:34:17 special?
0:34:18 Well, Mercury isn’t
0:34:19 technically a bank.
0:34:20 They provide banking
0:34:21 services to partner
0:34:22 banks and are able to
0:34:22 focus on delivering
0:34:23 well-designed software
0:34:24 that helps navigate some
0:34:26 of the TDM for you.
0:34:27 Because when your
0:34:28 finances are simple,
0:34:29 your mind is free to
0:34:30 focus on the real work
0:34:30 of growing your
0:34:31 business.
0:34:32 With Mercury, you get
0:34:33 the tools you need to
0:34:34 operate at your best,
0:34:35 scale your business,
0:34:36 and keep your spend
0:34:37 under control.
0:34:39 Visit Mercury.com to
0:34:40 join over 200,000
0:34:40 entrepreneurs who use
0:34:41 Mercury to do more
0:34:42 for their business.
0:34:43 Mercury.
0:34:44 Banking that does
0:34:44 more.
0:34:46 Mercury is a financial
0:34:46 technology company,
0:34:47 not a bank.
0:34:48 Banking services
0:34:49 provided by Choice
0:34:49 Financial Group,
0:34:50 Column N.A., and
0:34:51 Evolved Bank and
0:34:52 Trust, members FDIC.
0:34:53 The IO card is
0:34:54 issued by Patriot Bank,
0:34:55 member FDIC,
0:34:56 pursuant to a
0:34:56 license from
0:34:57 MasterCard.
0:35:06 Listen, I get it.
0:35:07 Naming a streaming
0:35:08 service is hard.
0:35:09 There’s a lot to
0:35:09 choose from.
0:35:10 Most of the words
0:35:11 are nonsensical.
0:35:12 But there is simply
0:35:13 no excuse for the
0:35:14 fact that Warner
0:35:15 Brothers Discovery
0:35:16 got rid of the
0:35:17 name HBO, one of
0:35:18 the best brands in
0:35:20 television, only to
0:35:21 decide a few years
0:35:22 later that, oh,
0:35:22 actually, it should
0:35:23 have been called
0:35:24 HBO Max all along.
0:35:25 This week on the
0:35:26 Vergecast, we talk
0:35:27 about how this
0:35:28 branding disaster at
0:35:30 HBO came to be and
0:35:31 what might happen
0:35:31 next.
0:35:32 Plus, everything
0:35:33 happening at ESPN,
0:35:34 the future of Fox,
0:35:36 and what happens if
0:35:37 you get ants in your
0:35:38 Sonos speaker.
0:35:39 All that and more on
0:35:40 the Vergecast, wherever
0:35:41 you get podcasts.
0:35:52 try and put us in the
0:35:52 room.
0:35:53 Like, what was the
0:35:56 moment that you
0:35:57 said, okay, it’s
0:35:58 over?
0:36:00 I mean, what was, to
0:36:01 me, it sounded, you
0:36:02 said, a threat of a
0:36:03 chaotic election.
0:36:04 I was under the
0:36:05 impression that
0:36:07 Speaker Pelosi or
0:36:08 somebody had said,
0:36:09 every day I’m going
0:36:10 to have Democrats
0:36:12 come out against you
0:36:13 and it’s going to be
0:36:14 humiliating for you.
0:36:14 That didn’t happen.
0:36:16 No, so it’s very
0:36:17 complicated.
0:36:19 So, I mean, there is
0:36:20 this impression that it
0:36:23 was this grand plan
0:36:25 with Schumer,
0:36:26 Jeffries, Pelosi, and
0:36:27 Obama pulling strings
0:36:30 and deciding things.
0:36:32 But no, it was much
0:36:33 more organic than
0:36:33 that.
0:36:34 Pelosi and Schumer
0:36:36 both got members of
0:36:38 their caucus to hold
0:36:39 off on calling for
0:36:40 him to step down at
0:36:41 different times.
0:36:43 And wielded those
0:36:46 public, the threat of
0:36:47 more public calls for
0:36:49 him to step down as
0:36:50 a threat to get
0:36:51 things.
0:36:53 To get, that’s how
0:36:54 Schumer got a meeting
0:36:57 with the Biden White
0:36:58 House and campaign
0:36:59 leadership.
0:37:00 by saying, if you
0:37:02 don’t do this, I
0:37:03 got six senators who
0:37:04 are ready to come out
0:37:04 right now.
0:37:05 And so they did that
0:37:06 meeting.
0:37:09 But at the very end,
0:37:11 after a drumbeat of
0:37:13 House Democrats on
0:37:15 their own coming out,
0:37:17 and by the end, I
0:37:17 think it was like
0:37:18 something like 40,
0:37:19 which is really kind
0:37:20 of a small number
0:37:20 when you think about
0:37:21 how many of them
0:37:22 actually wanted him
0:37:22 to step down.
0:37:25 And it was pretty
0:37:26 organic.
0:37:27 The Biden people were
0:37:29 still in denial.
0:37:30 But what I think
0:37:31 changed the equation
0:37:34 was you have Chuck
0:37:36 Schumer goes to visit
0:37:38 the president in
0:37:38 Delaware.
0:37:42 He has to threaten
0:37:42 that he’s going to
0:37:43 call for the meeting
0:37:44 if they don’t give it
0:37:45 to him publicly.
0:37:46 So they say, if you
0:37:47 don’t give it to me,
0:37:47 I’m going to call for
0:37:48 it and you’re going to
0:37:48 have to give it to me.
0:37:49 So let me come and
0:37:49 visit him.
0:37:51 He goes and visits him.
0:37:53 This is after Pelosi
0:37:54 and Jeffries have both
0:37:56 made it clear to Biden
0:37:57 the House Democratic
0:37:59 Caucus doesn’t want him
0:37:59 to be the nominee
0:38:01 anymore and they think
0:38:02 they’re going to lose
0:38:03 – they’re not going to
0:38:04 be able to recapture
0:38:07 the House and that
0:38:08 they’re worried that he’s
0:38:09 not getting the polling
0:38:09 data that they’re
0:38:10 getting.
0:38:12 Schumer goes there and
0:38:14 he says – he tells
0:38:15 that – he tells Biden
0:38:15 about the meeting that
0:38:18 the House – the Senate
0:38:19 Democrats have had with
0:38:20 the campaign leadership.
0:38:21 What Schumer had told
0:38:23 Biden’s top aides,
0:38:25 Mike Donilon and Steve
0:38:27 Ruschetti, tell the
0:38:28 president every detail
0:38:29 of this and then it
0:38:30 got back to Schumer
0:38:31 that they hadn’t.
0:38:32 So that’s why he called
0:38:33 for the private meeting.
0:38:34 He went there and he
0:38:37 basically said, of the
0:38:40 51-member Senate
0:38:42 Democratic caucus, there
0:38:44 are five who want you
0:38:45 to stay as the nominee.
0:38:46 And that meant a lot to
0:38:47 Joe Biden personally
0:38:49 because at that point,
0:38:51 by the way, I think
0:38:53 only one had publicly
0:38:55 called for him to not
0:38:55 be the nominee anymore.
0:38:56 I think Senator
0:38:57 Welch from Vermont.
0:38:59 They were all holding
0:39:00 back.
0:39:02 But a number of them
0:39:03 were very worried,
0:39:04 especially the ones up
0:39:04 for re-election.
0:39:07 So that was a deciding
0:39:07 factor.
0:39:10 Also, one week later,
0:39:13 when Biden was very
0:39:13 sick with COVID,
0:39:16 and I can’t imagine
0:39:17 what it was like for
0:39:18 an 81-year-old man
0:39:19 who’s insisting on his
0:39:21 health and vigor to
0:39:22 have been laid up with
0:39:23 COVID in isolation,
0:39:25 Ruschetti and Donilon
0:39:25 meet with him and
0:39:27 they tell him something
0:39:28 that hasn’t been
0:39:30 reported until this book,
0:39:32 which is the woman
0:39:33 running the Democratic
0:39:34 National Convention,
0:39:35 which was about
0:39:36 three weeks away,
0:39:38 was a woman named
0:39:38 Mignon Moore,
0:39:39 longtime respected
0:39:40 Democratic operative.
0:39:41 When she got the job
0:39:43 in 2023, she formed
0:39:44 an ad hoc committee
0:39:45 called the What If
0:39:46 Committee.
0:39:47 Not on the books,
0:39:48 but it was just a group
0:39:49 of maybe a dozen
0:39:50 or so people involved
0:39:51 in the convention,
0:39:52 and it was,
0:39:55 what if the protests
0:39:57 in Chicago turn out
0:39:59 to be like the protests
0:40:00 in the 68 convention?
0:40:02 What if Joe Biden’s
0:40:03 no longer the nominee?
0:40:04 What if this?
0:40:04 What if that?
0:40:05 After the debate,
0:40:07 they started regularly
0:40:07 reaching out to the
0:40:09 delegates, and they
0:40:11 were hearing from the
0:40:12 delegates how much
0:40:13 bleeding there was
0:40:14 going on.
0:40:15 And the What If
0:40:16 Committee told
0:40:17 Ruschetti and Donilon,
0:40:19 if you go to the
0:40:20 convention, if the
0:40:21 president takes this
0:40:21 to the convention,
0:40:23 he can still win,
0:40:26 but it will be ugly
0:40:27 and it will be close.
0:40:29 So all of this data,
0:40:31 you don’t have the
0:40:32 support of the senators,
0:40:33 it’s going to be an
0:40:34 ugly battle.
0:40:36 Schumer had also told
0:40:39 Biden what Donilon
0:40:40 and Ruschetti had not,
0:40:40 which is,
0:40:42 your own pollsters
0:40:43 don’t think you can win.
0:40:45 They think there’s a
0:40:46 5% chance that you can win.
0:40:49 And that is not what
0:40:50 Donilon
0:40:53 had been telling
0:40:54 the president.
0:40:55 Donilon was the,
0:40:57 the pollsters never
0:40:58 talked to Biden.
0:40:59 They would talk to
0:41:00 Donilon and Ruschetti
0:41:01 and Donilon would
0:41:02 interpret the information
0:41:04 and he’s still
0:41:04 interpreting it out there.
0:41:05 You hear him at
0:41:06 Harvard, the Harvard
0:41:07 Institute of Politics
0:41:08 talking about it was
0:41:09 only a two-point race,
0:41:10 et cetera, et cetera.
0:41:11 Just absolute nonsense.
0:41:13 Anyway, I think at the
0:41:14 end of the day,
0:41:16 a very sick Biden
0:41:17 saw the writing on the
0:41:19 wall, saw that the
0:41:20 only way he was going
0:41:21 to win the nomination
0:41:22 was with a hideous
0:41:23 convention.
0:41:25 None of the Democrats
0:41:26 in the House,
0:41:27 none of the Democrats
0:41:28 in the Senate,
0:41:30 I’m using none loosely,
0:41:31 but few,
0:41:32 few in the Democrats
0:41:32 in the House,
0:41:33 few in the Democrats
0:41:33 in the Senate
0:41:34 wanted him to be the
0:41:35 nominee and he just saw
0:41:36 the writing on the wall.
0:41:37 But it took three
0:41:38 excruciating weeks.
0:41:41 Just from a spectator
0:41:42 standpoint,
0:41:43 it sounds like it would
0:41:43 have been such great
0:41:46 theater if he’d said,
0:41:47 stuck up the middle
0:41:47 finger and said,
0:41:48 no, I’m going to the
0:41:48 convention, I’m going
0:41:49 to be the nominee.
0:41:51 All hell breaks loose
0:41:52 at the convention.
0:41:54 And let’s assume
0:41:55 he didn’t get it.
0:41:56 I’m curious,
0:41:57 so with the two of you
0:41:58 just speculating,
0:41:59 trying to game theory
0:42:00 it out,
0:42:01 who do you think
0:42:02 were the likely,
0:42:03 who would have emerged
0:42:07 from a contested
0:42:07 convention or a
0:42:08 bloody convention,
0:42:09 who do you think
0:42:10 most likely would have
0:42:11 emerged victorious
0:42:12 if Biden had decided
0:42:13 to go the distance
0:42:14 but didn’t end up
0:42:15 the nominee?
0:42:16 It’s such an
0:42:16 interesting question
0:42:17 because how does
0:42:19 Biden brawling,
0:42:20 how does it affect
0:42:20 Kamala Harris?
0:42:22 And does Kamala
0:42:23 Harris stick with him
0:42:24 completely until the
0:42:25 end, when does she
0:42:27 break, if at all?
0:42:28 And does that
0:42:29 sour her chances?
0:42:30 Now, you know,
0:42:31 Black woman is a
0:42:31 demographic of the
0:42:32 most loyal voting
0:42:33 bloc in the
0:42:34 Democratic Party.
0:42:36 And it was made
0:42:37 very clear, we have
0:42:37 some reporting,
0:42:39 that many of the
0:42:40 Black leaders of the
0:42:41 party were like,
0:42:42 you are not going
0:42:45 to pass over the
0:42:46 first Black woman
0:42:46 vice president.
0:42:47 So she had the
0:42:48 inside track, but
0:42:49 given the connection
0:42:50 to Biden, if he
0:42:50 went to the
0:42:52 convention, it would
0:42:53 have been, that
0:42:53 could have
0:42:54 actually sunk her.
0:42:56 After that, you
0:42:57 have to look, you
0:42:57 know, there was
0:42:59 already sort of
0:43:01 what I called in
0:43:03 2023 the just-in-case
0:43:03 primary.
0:43:05 You know, Newsom,
0:43:06 J.B.
0:43:08 Pritzker, Gretchen
0:43:10 Whitmer were all
0:43:13 very subtly, you
0:43:14 know, laying track
0:43:15 just-in-case.
0:43:16 I think J.B.
0:43:17 Pritzker, given the
0:43:18 fact that the
0:43:19 convention was in
0:43:20 Chicago, the fact
0:43:21 that he had, that
0:43:21 he’s a billionaire
0:43:22 and has a ton of
0:43:23 money and would
0:43:24 have said, I’m
0:43:24 going to spend a
0:43:25 billion dollars to
0:43:26 beat Trump, I
0:43:27 guess, in my
0:43:28 Aaron Sorkin, I
0:43:29 actually somehow
0:43:30 think that he
0:43:31 could have pulled
0:43:31 it off.
0:43:32 Now, Newsom is
0:43:33 like a great
0:43:34 political athlete.
0:43:35 You know, it would
0:43:36 have been interesting
0:43:36 to see if he could
0:43:37 rally enough
0:43:38 delegates, but I
0:43:39 think the
0:43:40 combination of it
0:43:40 being Chicago and
0:43:42 the fear of
0:43:43 Trump would have
0:43:44 made them go with
0:43:45 a little bit of a
0:43:46 less risky option.
0:43:47 So your money
0:43:48 would have been on
0:43:48 Pritzker.
0:43:49 Yes.
0:43:50 That’s really
0:43:51 interesting.
0:43:53 So this is a
0:43:56 corpus that, you
0:43:57 know, that through
0:43:58 their machination and
0:43:59 process and
0:44:01 infrastructure decided
0:44:02 to keep Biden, and
0:44:02 that’s the
0:44:03 Democratic Party.
0:44:04 What does this say
0:44:06 about the
0:44:06 shortcomings of the
0:44:07 Democratic Party?
0:44:09 And if they engage
0:44:10 the two of you, and
0:44:10 I’m sure they’ve
0:44:11 asked you this
0:44:12 question, what
0:44:13 needs to change
0:44:13 about the
0:44:15 Democratic Party in
0:44:15 terms of its
0:44:16 responsibility to
0:44:18 mature or
0:44:19 gestate the best
0:44:21 candidate to win
0:44:22 the election?
0:44:24 What changes, what
0:44:25 does this reflect about
0:44:25 the Democratic
0:44:26 machinery and what
0:44:27 needs to change?
0:44:30 The last election that
0:44:32 I can think of, the
0:44:33 last primary election
0:44:34 that I can think of
0:44:35 where Democrats
0:44:36 actually allowed the
0:44:39 Democratic voters to
0:44:42 pick the nominee was
0:44:45 2008 when they picked
0:44:46 Barack Obama.
0:44:48 And remember, the
0:44:49 consensus, the
0:44:50 Democratic leadership
0:44:51 consensus was kind of
0:44:52 Hillary Clinton, but
0:44:53 there were a number of
0:44:54 Democratic candidates that
0:44:55 were strong, and
0:44:56 ultimately, Iowa voters
0:44:58 picked Obama, New
0:44:59 Hampshire voters picked
0:45:00 Hillary, and then South
0:45:01 Carolina voters picked
0:45:02 Obama, and, you know,
0:45:03 but it was a very
0:45:04 competitive primary, and
0:45:05 it was legit.
0:45:06 It was a legitimate
0:45:06 primary.
0:45:08 It was contested, it
0:45:09 was ugly, they had to
0:45:12 have a meeting of the
0:45:13 two candidates when it
0:45:14 was over, et cetera,
0:45:14 et cetera.
0:45:16 2012, obviously, the
0:45:17 incumbent Democrat wins.
0:45:21 2016, the DNC is all
0:45:24 in for Hillary, and
0:45:25 they’re not fair to
0:45:25 Bernie Sanders.
0:45:28 And, in fact, Tulsi
0:45:30 Gabbard resigns as a
0:45:30 member of the Democratic
0:45:31 National Committee
0:45:33 because the DNC is
0:45:34 being so unfair to
0:45:34 Bernie.
0:45:36 2020, there are all
0:45:37 these machinations
0:45:39 because they wanted to
0:45:40 stop Bernie again.
0:45:42 Obama redeeming
0:45:43 himself with Biden to
0:45:44 a degree, perhaps, by
0:45:45 helping to convince
0:45:47 others to drop out of
0:45:48 the race so Democrats
0:45:49 could rally against
0:45:50 Biden to stop Bernie.
0:45:52 And then, of course,
0:45:54 what happened in
0:45:56 2020, which is the
0:45:57 Democratic Party
0:46:00 leaning on state
0:46:01 parties to not even
0:46:03 permit primaries.
0:46:04 I mean, the Dean
0:46:05 Phillips campaign had
0:46:07 to sue the Wisconsin
0:46:08 Democratic Party all the
0:46:09 way up to the
0:46:09 Wisconsin Supreme
0:46:11 Court to even put him
0:46:11 on the ballot.
0:46:13 And as you note, he
0:46:14 wasn’t like a real
0:46:14 threat.
0:46:17 So I would say, well,
0:46:18 I’ve heard people like
0:46:19 Ezra Klein talk about
0:46:22 the weakness of the
0:46:23 Democratic Party.
0:46:24 This is about the
0:46:25 weakness of the
0:46:26 Democratic Party or the
0:46:27 weakness of parties in
0:46:28 general, that the
0:46:29 Democratic Party is
0:46:31 built around, was built
0:46:31 around Biden, and the
0:46:32 Republican Party is
0:46:33 built around Trump.
0:46:34 And to a degree, I
0:46:36 think that’s fair.
0:46:38 But I will say, the
0:46:39 Republicans had a
0:46:40 primary, and they had
0:46:41 strong candidates, and
0:46:42 they were on the ballot,
0:46:43 and they had debates.
0:46:44 Trump didn’t participate,
0:46:45 but they had debates.
0:46:47 And Republican voters
0:46:48 picked who they picked,
0:46:51 probably aided by Alvin
0:46:52 Bragg and Letitia James
0:46:52 in ways.
0:46:55 But, I mean, I think one
0:46:55 of the biggest problems,
0:46:57 and Democrats have not
0:46:58 asked my advice, I don’t
0:46:59 know about Alex, I don’t
0:47:00 think that I’m going to be
0:47:01 getting any invitations to
0:47:03 speak anytime soon.
0:47:06 But, letting voters
0:47:08 decide, having open
0:47:10 primaries, I mean, whatever
0:47:10 you think of Robert F.
0:47:12 Kennedy Jr., and I don’t
0:47:14 think much of him, in
0:47:16 terms of his views on
0:47:19 vaccines, I mean, why was
0:47:21 he not allowed to be a
0:47:22 candidate, you know, or
0:47:23 Marianne Williamson?
0:47:25 Why was it such a
0:47:27 transgression to allow
0:47:28 them to be on a ballot
0:47:30 or to have a debate?
0:47:31 What’s so crazy about
0:47:32 that?
0:47:33 Dean Phillips, as you
0:47:34 know, Scott, he says the
0:47:35 main reason he ran was he
0:47:37 wanted to force Biden on a
0:47:38 debate stage so people
0:47:39 could see what he had been
0:47:40 seeing behind the scenes.
0:47:42 Would that really have been
0:47:43 such an awful idea in
0:47:43 retrospect?
0:47:47 And I would just add, you
0:47:48 know, the Democrats, the
0:47:51 Democratic Party, I think,
0:47:52 truly believe with a sincere
0:47:54 conviction that Trump is an
0:47:55 existential threat to
0:47:55 democracy.
0:47:57 And if you believe that,
0:47:59 it’s easy to rationalize
0:48:01 anything, including, in
0:48:03 some ways, doing things
0:48:04 that are anti-democratic,
0:48:05 which is what they did,
0:48:07 and basically rigging the
0:48:09 2024 primary to ensure
0:48:10 that Biden would stay the
0:48:10 nominee.
0:48:11 It’s so interesting because
0:48:13 it’s the opposite, isn’t
0:48:13 it?
0:48:15 I remember in 1992, I was a
0:48:16 second year in business
0:48:17 school, and a friend of
0:48:20 mine, her father was a
0:48:21 wealthy developer in
0:48:22 Sacramento, and she knew I
0:48:24 was into politics and said,
0:48:25 I was, I was, I had a big
0:48:28 do caucus for president sign in
0:48:29 my window, remember him?
0:48:32 And she said, my father’s
0:48:35 hosting a fundraiser for this
0:48:36 unknown governor from
0:48:38 Arkansas, and he’s got no
0:48:41 shot whatsoever, no shot.
0:48:43 But we’re thinking about him
0:48:44 for 96 or 2000.
0:48:46 And I went and met this guy.
0:48:50 And back then, it’s reported
0:48:51 he had a photographic memory,
0:48:53 and he would get a cue card on
0:48:55 everyone in the room.
0:48:57 And I’m in a room, second
0:48:58 year of business school, bad
0:49:00 suit, intimidated, in a room
0:49:02 of 100 people, and he yells,
0:49:04 he throws up his arm, and he
0:49:04 yells, Scott!
0:49:09 And it comes over to me, and
0:49:11 the guy goes, I heard you, like
0:49:13 me, were raised by a single
0:49:13 mother.
0:49:15 And he looks me in the eye, and
0:49:17 he takes my hand, and he goes,
0:49:19 it wasn’t easy, was it?
0:49:22 And I remember thinking, and I’ve
0:49:24 gone on to raise money and
0:49:25 canvas for the Clintons.
0:49:27 Like, at that moment, I was all
0:49:28 in for any, Roger Clinton could
0:49:29 have run for something, and I
0:49:31 was gonna, I was gonna support
0:49:31 him.
0:49:33 And the primary process, and
0:49:36 that, that, it really is just
0:49:38 such an incredible process,
0:49:41 when it’s let, when it’s let
0:49:44 loose, of not only maturing the
0:49:46 right person, but maturing the
0:49:47 right man or woman for that
0:49:48 moment.
0:49:50 I mean, it, I think we
0:49:52 underestimate just how powerful
0:49:54 a process it is when we let it
0:49:54 run.
0:49:56 And anything we do to get in the
0:49:58 way of that, it’s just, it’s not
0:49:59 only not democratic, it’s just
0:49:59 stupid.
0:50:02 It’s an amazing means of vetting
0:50:05 the right person at the right
0:50:05 moment.
0:50:10 It’s been my great privilege to be a
0:50:10 campaign reporter.
0:50:13 And the two moments that mean the
0:50:16 most to me, just as a campaign
0:50:18 reporter, was one, covering John
0:50:21 McCain in 2000, and watching that.
0:50:22 And one of the things that was so
0:50:24 interesting about it is he went from
0:50:28 being a very conservative guy, except
0:50:29 on campaign finance.
0:50:31 He was a very experiential guy, like,
0:50:33 what he experienced informed his life.
0:50:35 And that campaign changed him, not
0:50:38 just the Bush machine bullying him and
0:50:41 all that, but he just became much more
0:50:43 open-minded about different things.
0:50:44 And he started teaming up with
0:50:46 Democrats on, on bipartisan
0:50:47 legislation.
0:50:48 It was just interesting watching a
0:50:51 person mature, as you just noted, and
0:50:55 seeing the same thing on the Obama
0:50:55 side.
0:50:58 In 2007, he was a shitty candidate.
0:51:01 I’d see him in these, like, high
0:51:03 school gymnasiums on a Friday night
0:51:06 in, you know, armpit Iowa, and he was
0:51:08 awful, he was listless, he was mad that
0:51:10 he was there, he missed his wife, he
0:51:11 missed his daughters.
0:51:13 And, like, Axelrod and those guys,
0:51:16 Plough, they would kick the shit out
0:51:17 of him, like, what are you doing?
0:51:18 Do you want to be president or do you
0:51:18 not?
0:51:20 And he grew.
0:51:22 He grew and became the Barack Obama
0:51:24 that got elected president.
0:51:28 And seeing that close-up is an
0:51:29 incredible thing.
0:51:32 And I don’t think that we’ve, I’m
0:51:33 trying to think, I mean, there was a
0:51:36 Republican primary this last election,
0:51:37 but, you know, Donald Trump was
0:51:39 essentially an incumbent running.
0:51:42 But watching the process really is
0:51:42 just great.
0:51:44 And Democrats are so fearful.
0:51:47 They’re so terrified that the party’s
0:51:49 going to nominate Bernie Sanders or
0:51:49 whatever.
0:51:51 And it’s just like, let the party
0:51:52 nominate who they want.
0:51:54 We’ll be right back.
0:52:01 Support for the show comes from
0:52:02 Trinet.
0:52:04 Trinet’s full range of HR solutions
0:52:05 were built for purpose-driven
0:52:06 companies such as Zapp Surgical.
0:52:08 Founded by pioneering neurosurgeon and
0:52:10 inventor Dr. John Adler, Zapp
0:52:12 Surgical has spent the last decade
0:52:13 developing precision brain care
0:52:14 solutions that make world-class
0:52:16 radiological surgery universally
0:52:18 accessible, treating more patients
0:52:20 with greater accuracy and charting a
0:52:21 new frontier in medicine from
0:52:22 physical health to mental
0:52:23 well-being.
0:52:25 And when Dr. Adler needed a provider
0:52:27 of HR solutions to help him recruit
0:52:28 the best of the best, he went with
0:52:29 Trinet.
0:52:31 Trinet provides HR solutions to the
0:52:32 small and medium-sized businesses
0:52:33 that put their people first.
0:52:35 That’s because they know that your
0:52:37 company, whether it’s a staff of five
0:52:39 or 500, would be nothing without the
0:52:40 people working there.
0:52:41 And by supporting essential HR
0:52:43 functions from payroll to compliance
0:52:45 to access to benefits, Trinet wants to
0:52:47 help you take care of your employees.
0:52:48 Trinet can also help you scale,
0:52:50 providing industry-leading expertise
0:52:51 to help you grow your team, attract
0:52:53 top talent, and stay competitive
0:52:54 regardless of your size.
0:52:56 Learn what Trinet can do for your
0:52:59 business at Trinet.com slash Vox.
0:53:02 That’s T-R-I-N-E-T dot com slash Vox
0:53:03 to get started.
0:53:05 Trinet, your path, their purpose.
0:53:12 Support for this show comes from the
0:53:13 podcast, The World As You’ll Know It.
0:53:15 Hosted by science journalist and Yale
0:53:18 professor Carl Zimmer, author of Life’s
0:53:19 Edge and Airborne, The World As You
0:53:21 Know It is a podcast about the forces
0:53:22 shaping the future.
0:53:24 This season, Zimmer speaks to some of the
0:53:26 most respected scientists in the field
0:53:27 of longevity research about what old
0:53:29 age could look like in the future.
0:53:31 Humans are already living longer than
0:53:33 ever, thanks to advances like vaccines,
0:53:35 antibiotics, and clean water.
0:53:36 And with the incredible progress being
0:53:38 made in treating deadly conditions,
0:53:40 including heart disease and cancer,
0:53:42 mortality rates for each have dropped
0:53:43 by double digits.
0:53:45 Now, science is tackling a new
0:53:47 challenge, curing aging itself.
0:53:49 Will new breakthroughs add even more
0:53:50 years to our lives?
0:53:52 Can older brains be rewired to function
0:53:53 like younger ones?
0:53:55 And which so-called biohacks actually
0:53:55 work?
0:53:57 Join Carl Zimmer as he investigates what
0:53:59 current science is claiming about
0:54:00 longevity and gets to the bottom of
0:54:02 what’s unbelievable and what’s actually
0:54:02 possible.
0:54:05 You can find The World As You’ll Know It,
0:54:06 The Future of Aging, wherever you get
0:54:07 your podcasts.
0:54:10 Or you can listen at aventine.org
0:54:10 slash podcast.
0:54:15 That’s A-V-E-N-T-I-N-E dot org slash
0:54:16 podcast.
0:54:19 What’s better than a well-marbled
0:54:20 ribeye sizzling on the barbecue?
0:54:23 A well-marbled ribeye sizzling on the
0:54:25 barbecue that was carefully selected by
0:54:27 an Instacart shopper and delivered to
0:54:27 your door.
0:54:30 A well-marbled ribeye you ordered
0:54:32 without even leaving the kiddie pool.
0:54:34 Whatever groceries your summer calls
0:54:36 for, Instacart has you covered.
0:54:38 Download the Instacart app and enjoy
0:54:40 zero-dollar delivery fees on your first
0:54:41 three orders.
0:54:43 Service fees, exclusions, and terms
0:54:43 apply.
0:54:45 Instacart.
0:54:46 Groceries that over-deliver.
0:54:55 We’re back with more from Jake Tapper and
0:54:55 Alex Thompson.
0:54:59 So just going back to this notion that we
0:55:02 have a tendency or this narcissism gets in
0:55:02 the way.
0:55:05 I’ll put forward a thesis on what you guys
0:55:06 to respond to it.
0:55:06 And I can’t help.
0:55:08 I’ve got two great political minds.
0:55:10 So I want to talk about a little bit about
0:55:11 our current situation.
0:55:17 I’m upset that we have this emerging
0:55:18 kleptocracy,
0:55:19 kakistocracy,
0:55:20 whatever-ocracy you want to call it.
0:55:23 And what I think is worse
0:55:26 is I feel like
0:55:28 we’re feckless and neutered in terms of our
0:55:28 resistance to it.
0:55:31 I feel there’s a total lack of leadership on
0:55:32 the Democratic side.
0:55:34 And arguably,
0:55:35 arguably,
0:55:36 you know,
0:55:37 the leader of the Democratic Party,
0:55:38 I don’t know if you’d agree with this,
0:55:39 is Senator Schumer.
0:55:42 And I think some of that same narcissism
0:55:44 and age is coming to fruition there.
0:55:47 Do you think there needs to be a process
0:55:50 for essentially saying,
0:55:50 okay,
0:55:52 are these the right people,
0:55:52 distinct to tenure,
0:55:54 to put up,
0:55:55 to represent our party
0:55:56 and put up a fight?
0:55:57 If the election,
0:55:58 my understanding is the election
0:55:59 we’re held today,
0:56:00 despite everything we know
0:56:02 about this kind of mob family
0:56:03 approach to governance,
0:56:05 Donald Trump would be re-elected again.
0:56:07 So,
0:56:08 Senator Schumer
0:56:09 and some of the other people
0:56:10 in the Democratic Party,
0:56:11 do we still suffer
0:56:13 from the same narcissism
0:56:13 and inability
0:56:14 to put the best people forward
0:56:15 to put up the fight?
0:56:17 I mean,
0:56:18 I think Chuck Schumer,
0:56:19 I mean,
0:56:20 you talk to many,
0:56:21 many Democrats,
0:56:22 a lot of people believe
0:56:22 Chuck Schumer
0:56:23 has lost a few steps.
0:56:25 That being said,
0:56:25 you know,
0:56:26 there is a vacuum
0:56:28 and I think the party
0:56:29 is going through
0:56:31 a process
0:56:32 of reckoning
0:56:33 with what just happened.
0:56:35 And sometimes
0:56:36 those processes
0:56:37 take a while.
0:56:37 I mean,
0:56:38 the Republican Party
0:56:40 was in a complete state
0:56:41 of catastrophe
0:56:42 after 2008.
0:56:44 And it wasn’t clear
0:56:46 if there was
0:56:46 any sort of leader
0:56:47 that was emerging
0:56:48 and eventually
0:56:49 you did have
0:56:50 people come forward
0:56:51 and I think
0:56:51 that’s what’s happening
0:56:52 with the Democratic Party.
0:56:53 Now,
0:56:55 amidst that vacuum,
0:56:55 to your point,
0:56:57 a lot of,
0:56:58 there’s a lot of things
0:56:59 happening
0:57:00 and there is not really
0:57:01 an effective opposition.
0:57:02 I mean,
0:57:03 it’s up to the Democratic
0:57:04 senators
0:57:05 and House members
0:57:06 to pick their leaders.
0:57:07 And,
0:57:07 you know,
0:57:08 I don’t have advice
0:57:10 for Democrats
0:57:10 and I don’t have advice
0:57:11 for Republicans.
0:57:15 I personally think
0:57:17 that
0:57:20 what Democrats,
0:57:21 that all of Democrats
0:57:22 right now
0:57:24 are being blamed
0:57:24 for
0:57:26 the Biden
0:57:27 fiasco.
0:57:27 And by that,
0:57:28 I mean his decision
0:57:29 to run for re-election
0:57:30 and his decision
0:57:32 to hide
0:57:33 his deterioration.
0:57:35 Because no one
0:57:36 is coming out
0:57:36 and saying,
0:57:38 as our reporting suggests,
0:57:39 this was the fault
0:57:40 of President Biden,
0:57:41 his wife,
0:57:43 and his son,
0:57:44 and like a number,
0:57:45 a few top aides.
0:57:47 But this isn’t necessarily
0:57:49 something that could be
0:57:50 laid on the feet
0:57:50 of every single
0:57:51 elected Democrat
0:57:52 in the country.
0:57:53 People saw things,
0:57:54 but ultimately
0:57:55 they were being lied to
0:57:57 by a small group of people.
0:57:59 My personal view
0:58:00 is that until
0:58:00 the Democratic Party
0:58:02 reckons with that,
0:58:03 people are going to have
0:58:04 a very difficult time
0:58:05 trusting them
0:58:06 on anything.
0:58:08 And I think that
0:58:09 in the same way
0:58:10 the Republican Party
0:58:11 had to reckon
0:58:13 with the Iraq War
0:58:15 until it became,
0:58:15 I mean,
0:58:16 it took years,
0:58:18 years before,
0:58:20 I guess it was 2016
0:58:21 when Donald Trump
0:58:22 became a nominee
0:58:23 who was willing
0:58:24 to say that was a mistake.
0:58:25 But until then,
0:58:26 it was heresy
0:58:28 for a Republican
0:58:29 to acknowledge that.
0:58:30 I don’t know
0:58:31 how long it’s going to take
0:58:34 for a Gretchen Whitmer
0:58:35 or a Josh Shapiro
0:58:37 or a Gavin Newsom
0:58:37 or whatever
0:58:38 to say,
0:58:39 you know,
0:58:39 we got lied to
0:58:41 and I didn’t do enough
0:58:41 as a governor
0:58:43 or as a Democratic leader
0:58:44 to push on this,
0:58:45 but we need,
0:58:46 we can’t ever
0:58:47 let this happen again
0:58:49 and this is my position
0:58:49 on this,
0:58:49 X, Y, Z.
0:58:51 I think that this is
0:58:52 the true cross
0:58:53 they have to bear
0:58:54 because,
0:58:55 I mean,
0:58:56 I just see it
0:58:58 with family and friends
0:58:59 who are Democrats.
0:59:00 I’m,
0:59:00 you know,
0:59:01 I’m a member
0:59:01 of the Bull Moose Party,
0:59:02 but family and friends
0:59:03 who are Democrats
0:59:06 who are furious
0:59:08 with the Democratic Party
0:59:10 and it can be triggered
0:59:11 just by,
0:59:11 you know,
0:59:12 they see Chris Van Hollen
0:59:13 going down to El Salvador
0:59:14 to meet with
0:59:16 an undocumented immigrant
0:59:17 who’s a wife beater
0:59:19 and yes,
0:59:20 he should be afforded
0:59:20 due process
0:59:21 as anybody in this country
0:59:22 should be afforded
0:59:22 due process.
0:59:23 It’s set and yes,
0:59:24 the Trump administration
0:59:26 should abide by the law
0:59:27 and all that,
0:59:31 but they see energy
0:59:32 being directed
0:59:32 towards things
0:59:34 that are not helpful
0:59:34 to them
0:59:36 that they don’t understand
0:59:37 and on a hair trigger
0:59:39 they can get mad about it
0:59:41 and when I poke and prod
0:59:42 with these friends
0:59:43 and family members
0:59:44 and I’m using a,
0:59:46 not a hypothetical,
0:59:47 this is an example
0:59:48 that happened with somebody,
0:59:49 ultimately,
0:59:50 they’re still mad
0:59:50 about Biden.
0:59:52 They just think
0:59:53 Democrats are liars
0:59:54 and they don’t even,
0:59:55 like,
0:59:55 I mean,
0:59:56 it is,
0:59:57 I think,
0:59:58 to a lot of people
0:59:59 and a lot of Democrats
1:00:01 like finding out
1:00:03 that the wizard
1:00:04 is behind the curtain
1:00:06 or your entire religion
1:00:07 is based on,
1:00:08 you know,
1:00:10 a lie that somebody concocted
1:00:10 or,
1:00:11 I mean,
1:00:11 it’s,
1:00:12 I think it is a very
1:00:13 debilitating thing.
1:00:14 You,
1:00:15 a lot of people are raised,
1:00:16 you’re a Democrat,
1:00:17 you’re a Republican
1:00:18 and then you find out that,
1:00:19 let’s say,
1:00:20 that you’re a
1:00:22 never Trump Republican,
1:00:22 you find out
1:00:23 that it actually isn’t about
1:00:26 a strong international relation
1:00:27 and free trade
1:00:28 and respect for authority
1:00:29 and,
1:00:29 you know,
1:00:30 that it’s just actually
1:00:31 about Donald Trump.
1:00:31 And in this case,
1:00:33 it’s just like,
1:00:35 you were raised as a Democrat
1:00:36 and it turns out that
1:00:37 it wasn’t about
1:00:39 anything other than
1:00:41 preserving this old man’s ego
1:00:41 and his desperate
1:00:42 cling to power.
1:00:43 I mean,
1:00:44 I think that that is
1:00:46 just severely traumatic.
1:00:48 I want to put forward
1:00:48 a thesis,
1:00:49 something we think about
1:00:50 a lot here
1:00:53 in the Prof G
1:00:54 universe of podcasts
1:00:55 and that is,
1:00:56 and granted,
1:00:57 you know,
1:00:59 I’m a hammer
1:00:59 so everything
1:01:01 I see is a nail,
1:01:02 but my thesis
1:01:03 around how we
1:01:04 elected
1:01:06 a Fallon
1:01:07 and an insurrectionist
1:01:08 is that
1:01:09 if you look at the groups
1:01:10 that pivoted hardest
1:01:12 from blue to red
1:01:13 2020 to 2024,
1:01:15 Latinos,
1:01:16 and my thesis there
1:01:16 is they don’t even
1:01:17 want to be identified
1:01:17 as a group
1:01:19 to people
1:01:20 under the age of 40
1:01:21 who for the first time
1:01:22 aren’t doing as well
1:01:23 as his or her parents
1:01:25 were at 40 or 30.
1:01:27 So the country’s
1:01:27 not working for them.
1:01:28 They want to change.
1:01:29 And then women
1:01:30 45 to 64.
1:01:32 And my thesis is
1:01:32 that’s the mothers
1:01:33 of young men.
1:01:34 And at the Democratic
1:01:35 National Convention,
1:01:36 I saw a parade
1:01:37 of special interest groups
1:01:38 addressing the very real
1:01:39 concerns and issues
1:01:40 still facing a lot
1:01:41 of these groups
1:01:42 that I didn’t see
1:01:43 one person talk about
1:01:44 or even acknowledge
1:01:45 the struggle
1:01:45 of the group
1:01:46 I believe
1:01:46 has fallen furthest
1:01:47 fastest in America
1:01:48 and that’s young men.
1:01:50 Four times likely
1:01:50 to kill themselves,
1:01:51 three times likely
1:01:51 to be addicted,
1:01:52 12 times likely
1:01:53 to be incarcerated.
1:01:56 I believe
1:01:57 that the Democratic Party
1:01:59 may have lost
1:01:59 the election
1:02:01 because they refused
1:02:02 to acknowledge
1:02:04 because of a purity test
1:02:05 or not meeting
1:02:06 a purity test
1:02:07 addressing the issues
1:02:08 facing young men
1:02:09 in this country
1:02:10 and that we drastically
1:02:11 need to move away
1:02:12 from identity politics
1:02:14 and focus
1:02:15 on the folks
1:02:16 that are really
1:02:18 facing the most
1:02:18 headwinds
1:02:19 in our society
1:02:19 right now.
1:02:22 And I’m just curious,
1:02:23 the Democratic Party’s
1:02:24 ability to even
1:02:25 acknowledge the struggles
1:02:26 that young men
1:02:27 are facing in this country
1:02:27 and if it played
1:02:28 a role in the election.
1:02:33 the party has a big problem
1:02:34 with young men
1:02:35 who feel that the party
1:02:36 doesn’t care about them
1:02:39 or sees their struggles
1:02:40 as lesser
1:02:42 than other people’s struggles.
1:02:43 Now,
1:02:44 I would also say
1:02:45 one of the things
1:02:45 that’s very hard
1:02:47 about this last election
1:02:48 is it’s very difficult
1:02:49 to draw
1:02:51 hard and fast lessons
1:02:51 from it
1:02:53 because the Democratic Party
1:02:54 sort of like,
1:02:55 you know,
1:02:57 sort of forfeited.
1:02:57 You know,
1:02:59 they dropped their nominee
1:03:00 with 107 days to go
1:03:01 and then ran
1:03:03 and then only,
1:03:03 you know,
1:03:04 she had a lot of money
1:03:06 but she only had 107 days.
1:03:06 So,
1:03:08 I think that’s,
1:03:09 and Democrats I talk to,
1:03:10 it’s like the single
1:03:11 hardest thing
1:03:12 for them
1:03:13 to reckon with
1:03:13 is
1:03:15 drawing lessons
1:03:15 because
1:03:17 it was such a chaotic
1:03:18 process.
1:03:20 so I think
1:03:21 your point
1:03:21 is well taken
1:03:22 but I also think
1:03:24 what’s making
1:03:24 a lot of Democrats
1:03:25 struggle
1:03:26 to figure out
1:03:27 why they lost
1:03:27 is because
1:03:29 you had such
1:03:30 a weird process
1:03:31 and didn’t have
1:03:32 like a full,
1:03:33 a nominee
1:03:35 with a full runway
1:03:36 to make their case.
1:03:36 Jake?
1:03:37 So,
1:03:39 we talked about this
1:03:40 last time we talked
1:03:41 and I actually love
1:03:42 talking to you
1:03:42 about this
1:03:43 because it’s a conversation
1:03:46 that I’ve only had
1:03:46 with you
1:03:48 and Peter Hamby
1:03:50 from Puck
1:03:52 who covers
1:03:52 a lot of this stuff.
1:03:54 My son is now
1:03:55 15 years old
1:03:57 and he’s a gamer,
1:03:58 he’s a football fan,
1:04:00 starting linebacker
1:04:02 on his
1:04:03 varsity football team.
1:04:05 The Democratic Party
1:04:07 has no way
1:04:08 of communicating
1:04:08 with him.
1:04:11 They have no entree
1:04:11 into his world
1:04:13 and in fact
1:04:13 it’s interesting
1:04:16 I went on a
1:04:17 left-leaning
1:04:19 podcast
1:04:20 that shall remain
1:04:20 nameless
1:04:21 and we were talking
1:04:22 about my kids
1:04:23 because I think
1:04:24 they were both people
1:04:24 without kids
1:04:26 and they asked me
1:04:27 about my son
1:04:27 and I said
1:04:27 he was,
1:04:28 you know,
1:04:30 he’s a football player
1:04:31 and he wants
1:04:32 to be a policeman
1:04:34 and their joke was
1:04:35 about my 15-year-old son,
1:04:35 oh,
1:04:36 how does he feel
1:04:37 about minorities?
1:04:37 Like the idea
1:04:38 that he wants
1:04:38 to be a policeman
1:04:40 therefore he’s racist,
1:04:40 my son.
1:04:41 And like,
1:04:42 you know,
1:04:42 that was the big laugh
1:04:43 and then I got dragged
1:04:44 in the comments
1:04:45 and all that stuff
1:04:47 and I thought
1:04:48 to myself,
1:04:48 this is why
1:04:49 you fuckers
1:04:50 are losing elections.
1:04:52 Like,
1:04:53 my football-playing son
1:04:58 who has no
1:04:59 political views,
1:05:00 he’s 15,
1:05:01 he thinks about
1:05:03 World War II
1:05:04 and gaming
1:05:07 and playing linebacker.
1:05:08 That’s his world.
1:05:10 you’re deciding
1:05:11 he’s a racist
1:05:13 because he wants
1:05:13 to be a cop
1:05:14 and why does he
1:05:15 want to be a cop?
1:05:15 He wants to be a cop
1:05:16 because he wants
1:05:17 to help people,
1:05:17 you know,
1:05:19 and he thinks
1:05:19 that’s the best way
1:05:20 he can help people
1:05:22 and that’s how
1:05:23 the Democratic Party
1:05:25 talks to men,
1:05:26 not just white men,
1:05:27 but men
1:05:29 and I mean,
1:05:30 I get the idea
1:05:31 that they thought
1:05:31 Tim Walz
1:05:33 could,
1:05:34 what’s the term?
1:05:36 He used code switch
1:05:36 or something?
1:05:37 He thought that he could
1:05:39 translate the Democratic Party
1:05:40 values because he
1:05:42 hunts and fishes
1:05:43 and owns a gun
1:05:44 and was in the army
1:05:45 and drinks a beer.
1:05:46 I mean,
1:05:47 at least there was
1:05:47 an attempt
1:05:50 but I find it
1:05:50 just insane
1:05:52 that,
1:05:53 you know,
1:05:54 the party,
1:05:54 I mean,
1:05:55 look,
1:05:56 I’m 56 now
1:05:57 so,
1:05:58 you know,
1:05:58 but I remember
1:06:00 when,
1:06:01 I mean,
1:06:01 I grew up
1:06:03 in a Queen village
1:06:03 which is
1:06:04 on the border
1:06:05 of South Philadelphia
1:06:06 and like,
1:06:07 those were all
1:06:07 Democrats,
1:06:09 these beer-drinking
1:06:10 union guys
1:06:12 and probably
1:06:12 a lot of them
1:06:13 still are
1:06:14 just because
1:06:14 Philadelphia
1:06:15 is such a one
1:06:16 party town
1:06:19 but if you made,
1:06:19 if there was
1:06:20 this thriving
1:06:21 Republican Party
1:06:22 in Philadelphia,
1:06:24 they’d lose
1:06:25 a lot of elections.
1:06:26 So,
1:06:27 I don’t get
1:06:28 what they’re doing
1:06:28 but I think
1:06:29 it’s a lot
1:06:29 of what you’re saying
1:06:30 like,
1:06:33 toxic masculinity
1:06:35 and white privilege
1:06:36 and these are
1:06:37 the things
1:06:38 that my son
1:06:39 hears when people
1:06:40 are talking to him.
1:06:41 He’s 15,
1:06:42 you know,
1:06:43 he doesn’t,
1:06:45 of course he has
1:06:45 privilege,
1:06:45 he has privilege
1:06:46 because he’s
1:06:46 white,
1:06:47 because he’s
1:06:47 male,
1:06:47 because he’s
1:06:48 my son,
1:06:48 all that,
1:06:49 but like,
1:06:50 that’s not how
1:06:51 he sees the world,
1:06:51 he’s 15.
1:06:53 So,
1:06:54 we’ve got to wrap up here
1:06:54 because I know
1:06:55 you guys are busy
1:06:56 but I’m going to use
1:06:56 this as a segue
1:06:57 to talk about
1:06:58 media and its impact
1:06:59 on elections
1:07:00 moving forward.
1:07:01 Just a quick stat
1:07:03 with respect to Rogan,
1:07:04 the 40 million
1:07:06 views on YouTube
1:07:07 and the 15 million
1:07:08 audio downloads
1:07:09 for Harris to have
1:07:09 gotten the same
1:07:10 number of impressions
1:07:11 she would have had
1:07:11 to have gone on CNN,
1:07:12 MSNBC,
1:07:13 and Fox
1:07:14 every night for three
1:07:15 hours for two weeks.
1:07:17 And that’s a lead
1:07:17 into my question.
1:07:18 Jake,
1:07:18 I think you’re
1:07:21 the king of all media.
1:07:21 You know,
1:07:23 you’re a pilot
1:07:24 for Pan Am Airlines
1:07:24 but it’s Pan Am
1:07:25 in the 70s.
1:07:27 Traditional media
1:07:27 is,
1:07:28 I mean,
1:07:29 enjoy it,
1:07:29 date a lot of
1:07:30 stewardesses,
1:07:30 you know,
1:07:32 give kids wings
1:07:34 but that industry.
1:07:35 I think the sun is
1:07:36 passing midday.
1:07:37 I think the average
1:07:37 age of cable news
1:07:38 viewers is 70.
1:07:40 And I think one
1:07:41 of the big errors
1:07:42 of the Democratic
1:07:43 Party not figuring
1:07:43 out a way to speak
1:07:44 to people via podcast,
1:07:45 the average age
1:07:45 of a podcast listener
1:07:46 is 34.
1:07:47 And a 70-year-old
1:07:48 woman watching
1:07:49 MSNBC,
1:07:51 she knows who
1:07:52 she’s voting for.
1:07:53 Whereas 34-year-old
1:07:54 males tend to focus
1:07:55 on economics.
1:07:58 And that is a swing issue
1:08:00 because no party owns it.
1:08:01 Sometimes Democrats
1:08:02 are seen as better
1:08:03 for the economy
1:08:03 and Republicans
1:08:04 are seen as better
1:08:04 for the economy
1:08:06 which makes no fucking sense
1:08:07 given Democrats
1:08:08 have created 40 million jobs
1:08:09 in the last 40 years
1:08:10 and Republicans 1 million.
1:08:11 But be that as it may,
1:08:12 it’s a swing issue.
1:08:14 I’m curious
1:08:16 how you guys see
1:08:18 as CNN and Axios
1:08:19 how you personally
1:08:20 are responding
1:08:21 or trying to meet
1:08:22 the moment
1:08:24 around
1:08:26 transitioning media
1:08:27 or your platforms.
1:08:27 How are you guys
1:08:28 personally thinking
1:08:29 about your message?
1:08:30 Are you trying
1:08:31 to get into podcasting?
1:08:32 What do you think
1:08:32 traditional media?
1:08:33 Just thoughts
1:08:34 on the media ecosystem
1:08:35 moving forward.
1:08:36 Obviously we’re
1:08:37 in a tremendous
1:08:38 time of disruption.
1:08:40 Sir Mark Thompson,
1:08:41 the head of CNN
1:08:42 right now,
1:08:42 is the guy
1:08:44 who helped bring
1:08:45 the New York Times
1:08:47 from a newspaper
1:08:48 with a website
1:08:48 to a website
1:08:49 with a newspaper
1:08:50 and making it profitable
1:08:51 and making it sustainable.
1:08:52 So hopefully
1:08:53 he will figure out
1:08:53 what to do
1:08:54 and obviously
1:08:55 we know
1:08:56 that it’s not
1:08:58 just cable news
1:08:58 that’s going
1:08:58 through this.
1:08:59 It’s everything.
1:09:00 Movies,
1:09:01 entertainment,
1:09:02 on TV,
1:09:03 books.
1:09:05 You know,
1:09:06 when I’ve
1:09:07 now written
1:09:08 seven books
1:09:09 and, you know,
1:09:11 the first few,
1:09:11 like,
1:09:12 all they cared
1:09:13 about was
1:09:14 hardback sales
1:09:15 and now
1:09:16 there’s an
1:09:16 acknowledgement
1:09:17 that Kindle
1:09:19 and audiobook
1:09:21 are thriving
1:09:22 ways that people
1:09:22 are consuming
1:09:23 information.
1:09:23 so
1:09:24 all of which
1:09:25 is to say
1:09:26 I don’t know
1:09:26 where this
1:09:27 ends up
1:09:28 but CNN
1:09:29 and every
1:09:30 media organization
1:09:32 needs to figure
1:09:32 out a way
1:09:33 to get to
1:09:33 where people
1:09:34 are
1:09:35 on their
1:09:36 phones
1:09:36 or on their
1:09:36 streaming
1:09:37 services
1:09:38 and,
1:09:39 I mean,
1:09:40 I agree
1:09:41 with everything
1:09:41 you’re saying.
1:09:43 I do not
1:09:43 have a podcast.
1:09:45 The notion
1:09:45 that I
1:09:46 would have…
1:09:46 Oh, you will.
1:09:48 This is the easiest
1:09:51 prediction in history.
1:09:52 Jake Tapper
1:09:52 will have a
1:09:52 podcast.
1:09:53 Yeah, I don’t
1:09:54 doubt it.
1:09:54 I don’t doubt
1:09:55 that someday
1:09:55 I will have
1:09:56 a podcast.
1:09:56 I mean,
1:09:57 right now,
1:09:58 every day,
1:09:58 I make sure
1:09:59 that I put
1:10:00 something on
1:10:01 TikTok,
1:10:02 Instagram,
1:10:03 Facebook,
1:10:04 Twitter,
1:10:06 Substack,
1:10:06 everything.
1:10:07 I have no idea
1:10:08 what’s going to
1:10:08 live and what’s
1:10:09 going to die,
1:10:09 but I want to
1:10:10 make sure
1:10:10 that I’m
1:10:11 part of it.
1:10:12 And I do,
1:10:13 I have to
1:10:14 believe that
1:10:14 there will
1:10:15 always be
1:10:17 an audience
1:10:18 and a desire
1:10:19 for people
1:10:20 who can just
1:10:20 give the news
1:10:21 and give
1:10:21 analysis
1:10:22 without being
1:10:22 part of a
1:10:23 team,
1:10:24 without being
1:10:24 a Democrat,
1:10:25 without being
1:10:25 a Republican,
1:10:26 who are willing
1:10:27 to write a book
1:10:28 critical of Joe
1:10:29 Biden while also
1:10:29 going on air
1:10:30 and providing
1:10:31 critical analysis
1:10:32 of Donald Trump.
1:10:33 I got to believe
1:10:34 that that’s
1:10:34 sustainable,
1:10:36 but how do we
1:10:36 get there?
1:10:37 I don’t know.
1:10:38 Alex?
1:10:40 I’m,
1:10:41 the one thing
1:10:41 that makes me
1:10:42 optimistic
1:10:43 optimistic is
1:10:45 people are
1:10:45 always going
1:10:46 to want
1:10:47 to get
1:10:47 new
1:10:48 information
1:10:49 that
1:10:49 they
1:10:49 can
1:10:50 trust.
1:10:51 But to your
1:10:52 point,
1:10:52 how they
1:10:53 get that
1:10:54 is changing
1:10:56 so rapidly.
1:10:58 And even
1:10:59 with the,
1:10:59 you know,
1:11:00 we’re bringing
1:11:00 in AI,
1:11:01 so like
1:11:02 commodity news
1:11:03 can just be
1:11:03 written up
1:11:04 by a program,
1:11:05 which obviously
1:11:05 is going to
1:11:06 change our
1:11:07 jobs too
1:11:08 in huge
1:11:09 ways by
1:11:10 2028.
1:11:11 But I just
1:11:12 think you have
1:11:12 to meet
1:11:13 the audience
1:11:13 where they
1:11:13 are because
1:11:14 I think
1:11:16 people will
1:11:16 always want
1:11:18 new information
1:11:19 that they can
1:11:19 trust.
1:11:20 And so that’s
1:11:21 the one thing
1:11:21 that makes me
1:11:22 optimistic because
1:11:22 as long as
1:11:23 you sort of
1:11:23 keep that
1:11:24 North Star
1:11:25 and just
1:11:25 figure out
1:11:26 the different
1:11:27 ways to
1:11:27 get them
1:11:28 the information,
1:11:28 I think
1:11:29 things will
1:11:29 be okay.
1:11:29 Yeah,
1:11:30 well,
1:11:30 this is the
1:11:30 easiest.
1:11:31 I’ve been
1:11:31 in business
1:11:32 my whole life
1:11:32 and an
1:11:32 operator.
1:11:34 Some rip
1:11:34 off the rest
1:11:35 is politics
1:11:35 with Jake
1:11:36 Tapper and
1:11:37 Alex Thompson.
1:11:37 Boom,
1:11:38 I got a
1:11:38 10% royalty.
1:11:39 Gentlemen,
1:11:41 Jake Tapper
1:11:42 anchors the
1:11:42 lead on
1:11:43 CNN and
1:11:44 serves as
1:11:44 the network’s
1:11:45 chief Washington
1:11:45 correspondent.
1:11:46 Alex Thompson
1:11:47 is a national
1:11:47 political correspondent
1:11:48 for Axios
1:11:49 and a CNN
1:11:49 contributor.
1:11:50 You’re both
1:11:51 great at what
1:11:51 you do,
1:11:52 but I know
1:11:52 enough about
1:11:53 media.
1:11:53 Whenever I
1:11:54 read or
1:11:55 watch you
1:11:55 guys,
1:11:56 the thing I
1:11:57 appreciate
1:11:57 and people
1:11:58 don’t,
1:12:00 I know
1:12:00 enough about
1:12:00 this business
1:12:01 to be
1:12:01 dangerous.
1:12:02 You guys
1:12:02 do the
1:12:03 work.
1:12:03 Jake
1:12:03 doesn’t
1:12:04 just show
1:12:04 up and
1:12:05 read off a
1:12:05 teleprompter.
1:12:06 He does
1:12:06 the work
1:12:07 off camera.
1:12:08 Alex,
1:12:09 I love
1:12:10 some of the
1:12:11 analysis you
1:12:11 do.
1:12:13 I can tell
1:12:14 every time you
1:12:14 write something
1:12:15 you’re asking
1:12:16 yourself,
1:12:16 what is the
1:12:17 inside here?
1:12:18 And you
1:12:18 spend real
1:12:19 time.
1:12:20 So you
1:12:20 guys do
1:12:20 the work.
1:12:22 I’m fans
1:12:22 of you
1:12:22 both and
1:12:23 really
1:12:24 appreciate
1:12:24 your time
1:12:24 and your
1:12:25 good work
1:12:25 in this
1:12:25 important
1:12:26 moment.
1:12:27 Thank you
1:12:27 and thank
1:12:27 you for
1:12:28 doing what
1:12:28 you do.
1:12:28 And thank
1:12:30 you for
1:12:31 focusing on
1:12:31 young men
1:12:32 in this
1:12:32 country because
1:12:33 it is so
1:12:33 important.
1:12:33 It’s a
1:12:34 conversation
1:12:35 that we
1:12:35 as a
1:12:35 society
1:12:36 just don’t
1:12:36 have
1:12:36 enough.
1:12:37 Thanks
1:12:38 very much,
1:12:38 Jake.
1:12:38 Thanks,
1:12:38 gentlemen.
1:12:39 Thank
1:12:40 you.
1:12:49 This episode
1:12:49 was produced
1:12:50 by Jennifer
1:12:50 Sanchez.
1:12:51 Our intern
1:12:51 is Dan
1:12:52 Shallon.
1:12:53 Drew Burrows
1:12:53 is our
1:12:54 technical
1:12:54 director.
1:12:55 Thank you
1:12:55 for listening
1:12:55 to the
1:12:55 Prop G
1:12:56 pod from
1:12:56 the Vox
1:12:57 Media Podcast
1:12:57 Network.
1:12:58 We will
1:12:58 catch you
1:12:59 on Saturday
1:13:00 for No
1:13:00 Mercy,
1:13:01 No Malice
1:13:01 as read
1:13:02 by George
1:13:02 Hahn.
1:13:03 And please
1:13:03 follow our
1:13:04 Prop G
1:13:04 Markets pod
1:13:05 wherever you
1:13:05 get your
1:13:06 pods for new
1:13:07 episodes every
1:13:08 Monday and
1:13:08 Thursday.