YAPClassic: Leila Hormozi, How to Attract Top Talent to Your Business

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0:01:22 What’s up, young em-profiters!
0:01:27 This week I played part one of my interview with Leila Hermosi and we heard her incredible
0:01:32 story of how she went from being a rebellious teen in trouble with the law to a multi-millionaire
0:01:34 mogul by her late 20s.
0:01:36 It was an epic story.
0:01:40 If you haven’t heard that episode yet, I would recommend you go back to part one, check
0:01:42 it out first, and then come back when you’re done.
0:01:47 Today we’re going to be listening to part two of this episode on management and hiring.
0:01:52 Now this episode went live back in 2022 originally.
0:01:56 But trust me, Leila’s advice on management and hiring is some of the best I’ve ever
0:01:59 heard and it is still relevant as ever.
0:02:04 I especially found her thoughts on accountability to be truly invaluable.
0:02:08 Leila believes that accountability is critical to the operation of a business.
0:02:14 She calls it the glue between action and result, and even calls herself the chief accountability
0:02:15 officer.
0:02:19 As the leader of your business, you have a responsibility to hold your team accountable,
0:02:22 to be the chief accountability officer.
0:02:27 And Leila has some great tips for how to do this, including how to shape expectations,
0:02:30 measure performance better, and give more productive feedback.
0:02:33 Okay, well here’s part two with Leila Hermosi.
0:02:37 Let’s jump right into it.
0:02:39 You’ve got a lot of management philosophies.
0:02:42 You are such a rock star in this area.
0:02:47 You’ve led numerous teams, you’ve found huge amounts of success, and everyone can technically
0:02:52 be a manager, but not everyone is a leader, even if they are in a management role.
0:02:56 So first of all, what do you think the qualities are of a world-class leader?
0:02:59 Three very important qualities in my opinion.
0:03:05 One is industriousness, the ability to work hard on the right work when the time comes.
0:03:10 Second is enthusiasm, which is being able to seek out and pursue hard challenges without
0:03:12 losing face, without losing energy.
0:03:14 And then the third is competitive greatness.
0:03:19 Competitive greatness is the love of a hard challenge when the hard challenge comes.
0:03:22 It’s not you run away from it, it’s that you run towards it, because you understand what
0:03:23 it will do for you.
0:03:27 Those are the three aspects that when I’m like, I actually use these when I’m hiring,
0:03:29 when I’m looking at leadership, I’m like, are they industrious?
0:03:30 Are they enthusiastic?
0:03:32 Do they have competitive greatness?
0:03:36 Because here’s the thing, if you work really hard on the right stuff, but you lack any energy
0:03:39 or enthusiasm, it’s hard for people to be around you.
0:03:44 They’re like, oh, he’s great, but you know, he’s tough versus if you’re very energetic
0:03:47 and enthusiastic, but you never get anything done, you don’t really set a good example
0:03:50 for other people in the organization, you’re not going to be able to move things forward
0:03:51 fast enough.
0:03:55 And then lastly, competitive greatness is, what are you motivated by?
0:03:58 And I think that the best leaders are not motivated by money.
0:04:04 They’re motivated by a better version of the world themselves or others that they’re constantly
0:04:07 trying to pursue because they know it means something to them.
0:04:11 And that everyone has a different reason or meaning for that thing, but they all have
0:04:15 that thing that they’re chasing, and they know that through leadership is how they can
0:04:16 get there.
0:04:18 And so that’s how I would define a good leader.
0:04:23 So I found something really interesting when I was studying you and it was about hiring
0:04:27 and you said you can’t hire anyone who is a better person than you if you’re the boss.
0:04:31 And from my understanding, you’ve essentially turned down working with companies because
0:04:34 you believe that top talent wouldn’t actually work for the leader.
0:04:36 Could you shed some color on that?
0:04:37 I’ll put it this way.
0:04:41 There are situations in which top talent will go work for that person, but how long
0:04:43 they stay is what I’m concerned with.
0:04:45 Think about this, right?
0:04:47 I have a certain level of character.
0:04:51 I would never work for somebody who had worse character than me.
0:04:54 And if I did, it would probably be for a very short amount of time and I wouldn’t be loyal
0:04:55 to that person.
0:04:59 And so when we’re looking at companies, that is 1,000 percent.
0:05:03 The biggest issue that I see, which is there are so many young entrepreneurs that have
0:05:09 these insane opportunities, these insane companies and they lack the integrity, maybe
0:05:17 they lack the discipline, they lack the trust, that I don’t think that true top talent would
0:05:20 be easy to recruit for them and so I don’t want to work with them.
0:05:21 What are the signs of that?
0:05:25 How do you tell, oh, this person doesn’t have integrity or I’m assuming you meet them just
0:05:27 a few times?
0:05:32 That’s a tough one because I think that you might feel this, but you can feel someone’s
0:05:34 intention when you’re having a conversation.
0:05:37 So there’s a lot of people that I talk to in business, for example, it’s like when I’m
0:05:40 at an event and I talk to them and I’m like, “This motherfucker wants to suck the blood
0:05:41 out of my brain.”
0:05:42 They just want all the information.
0:05:46 I talk to somebody else and I’m like, “They just want me to talk about them on social.”
0:05:51 You can feel someone’s intention and there’s a lot of people I’ve gotten on the phone with,
0:05:55 not an overwhelmingly amount, but enough that have success, but I can tell that the success
0:05:56 is self-fulfilling.
0:05:58 It’s not for others, it’s for themselves.
0:05:59 They’re not in it for others.
0:06:01 They’re not in it for their clients.
0:06:03 They’re not in it for their team because they don’t talk about that.
0:06:06 They talk about, “I, I, I, me, me, me.”
0:06:07 That doesn’t create loyalty.
0:06:11 That doesn’t create an environment in which top talent wants to work for you.
0:06:16 It’s being selfishly driven and one could argue that you are selfishly driven to help other
0:06:20 people because it feels good to yourself, but I would take that over being selfishly
0:06:25 driven to have more money, have more status, have more power and I can feel when I talk
0:06:30 to somebody by the language that they’re using what they really want and a lot of that comes
0:06:32 from even asking them, like, “What’s the point of the business?
0:06:33 Why does the business exist?”
0:06:39 A lot of them will say, “Well, I wanted to make some money and then this and then it’s
0:06:40 always about them.”
0:06:41 It’s like, “I really like this house.
0:06:43 I like this car.
0:06:44 I like this lifestyle.
0:06:49 I like the lifestyle,” whereas I think the best leaders in the world are not building
0:06:51 a company to pursue a lifestyle.
0:06:56 They’re building a company to pursue a purpose and they’re building a company to pursue impact
0:06:57 because that’s what I think about.
0:07:01 The question I ask myself every day when I wake up, “Is my team supported?
0:07:02 Do they have clarity?
0:07:04 Are my portfolio companies supported?
0:07:05 Do they have clarity?”
0:07:07 Those are the two questions that I think of in the morning.
0:07:11 I don’t ask myself, “How does Leila gain more status and influence?”
0:07:12 I could give a fuck.
0:07:17 I do this because I want people to know who I am because I hope that my true character
0:07:20 shows through and they can see I’m not an asshole boss.
0:07:24 I really want to build a place where people love working and I want to teach other companies
0:07:27 to do the same because I too used to have a shitty boss.
0:07:30 I know what it’s like to work in an environment where I want to shoot myself every day.
0:07:31 It sucked.
0:07:33 That’s really how you sense it.
0:07:35 Is the language somebody uses?
0:07:37 Are they talking about themselves more?
0:07:40 Are they talking about the why, the people, the team, the clients?
0:07:41 Yeah.
0:07:45 It’s just a little nuance, but you can tell when you’re in the conversation.
0:07:46 Yeah, 100%.
0:07:49 Let’s talk about the hiring process and dive deep into that.
0:07:54 You have a YouTube video called $100 million hiring process and according to your video,
0:07:57 the first step in the hiring funnel is the application generation.
0:08:00 I know a lot of my listeners are entrepreneurs.
0:08:03 A lot of people are struggling with hiring right now, so I thought we could spend a little
0:08:04 time on it.
0:08:09 First of all, you say the job title and the application is sort of like a headline.
0:08:13 What are your top tips to attract the right clients with your job title?
0:08:14 Yeah.
0:08:19 A lot of people get the job title wrong because one, they don’t know what right looks like.
0:08:20 They don’t have mentorship.
0:08:24 They don’t have advisors and they also don’t do research.
0:08:27 What I did when I was first starting out to understand what kind of job title I need is
0:08:33 I would put in keywords just into Google of what’s a job for somebody that does, and I
0:08:34 would say the top three things.
0:08:35 I’m not even kidding you.
0:08:39 Then I would look at all the titles that would come up, and then I would Google those titles
0:08:42 and read the job descriptions of each one, and then I would find out the one that had
0:08:47 the most similar description to the job that I need somebody to do.
0:08:50 I think that the reason is a lot of people don’t put in the time, the effort, they don’t
0:08:54 have the experience, but you can easily do that with literally using Google.
0:08:55 Yeah.
0:08:58 When you went and you read, you’re like, “Okay, I don’t know what this role is called, but
0:09:03 you read 17 job descriptions,” and then took the top three that you think it could be and
0:09:07 compared them on six other websites, you’re going to figure out probably the best name
0:09:08 for the job.
0:09:10 I think it’s just that most people aren’t diligent about that because they don’t understand
0:09:11 why it’s important.
0:09:14 If you understand why it’s important, it’s a task worth doing.
0:09:17 When you don’t understand the importance, it’s not a task worth doing, but the reality
0:09:21 is that most of the time when someone can’t recruit, the number one thing that I’ll change
0:09:22 is the job title.
0:09:24 I’m like, “Oh, it’s not the right job title,” so I’ll give an example.
0:09:29 I’m hiring for, I’ll say, an administrative assistant to help my EA team.
0:09:33 I put it out as administrative assistant, and the people I was getting were like, “They
0:09:38 had one year of experience,” so I was like, “Shit, I need someone with more experience
0:09:42 than that,” so I made it senior administrative assistant.
0:09:45 I started getting people with five, six years of experience, just the tiniest change in
0:09:50 job title, but if you look at salary.com, payscale.com, what’s the difference between
0:09:55 an administrative assistant and a senior, there’s a difference in pay and an experience,
0:09:57 and so it’s going to attract a different type of person.
0:10:00 I think for a lot of people out there that are struggling with this, it’s the exact same
0:10:03 thing as a marketing funnel, as a client acquisition funnel.
0:10:06 It’s just a talent acquisition funnel, and that’s the reason so many people don’t succeed
0:10:10 in business is they don’t see the similarities between those two things, or they don’t believe
0:10:14 they haven’t accumulated the evidence to show them, like, “This really works.
0:10:18 I’ve just had enough at-bats, and I think that I got lucky in the beginning of believing
0:10:21 it was important to try it enough times and see it work.”
0:10:25 Yeah, and I think that a lot of people don’t realize that when there’s a top talent person
0:10:28 searching, they’re searching for the job title that they know about.
0:10:34 They’re not going to read every single job post and research, just find you.
0:10:36 You need to be able to be searchable for them.
0:10:40 100%, they’re looking for the name that resonates with who they identify with.
0:10:41 Yeah.
0:10:45 Okay, so second part of the hiring funnel is nurturing, so talk to us about how we can
0:10:50 have a frictionless candidate experience and what the indirect and direct experiences are
0:10:51 during that process.
0:10:57 Yeah, so there’s really two things during the hiring lead nurture process that I would
0:11:02 like to call our candidate nurture process, which is indirect communication, which is
0:11:05 if I search a company, what am I going to find online?
0:11:06 Is it good?
0:11:07 Is it bad?
0:11:09 Because what candidates do is they go look at your reviews on Google, they go look at
0:11:13 your client reviews, they go look at Facebook group reviews, they go look at last door,
0:11:14 all of it.
0:11:17 There’s employee reviews, lots of customer reviews, you have to understand that because
0:11:19 that’s usually what pops up first.
0:11:22 So that’s the first thing I’m asking is what does it look like when they search your name?
0:11:24 That’s the indirect part of the funnel.
0:11:28 And you can have a lot of say in that in terms of what kind of press you’re putting out there,
0:11:29 what your website looks like.
0:11:31 You can control the narrative.
0:11:33 A lot of people are just too lazy to do it.
0:11:36 And so the narrative is controlled by customers, by ex-employees, et cetera.
0:11:40 But if you take control, by controlling the narrative, by putting out content for your
0:11:44 company, then you are going to control the narrative and most likely have a better indirect
0:11:46 experience for that candidate.
0:11:51 The other side is the direct communication, which is what I see as a huge pattern is people
0:11:56 think I need to have so many tests and so many complicated things to make this candidate
0:12:00 go through for this nurture process because I want to make sure I only get the smart ones
0:12:05 that the smart people have unlimited opportunity and don’t give a fuck about your funnel and
0:12:07 don’t want to take your 30 point test.
0:12:09 That’s just reality because guess what?
0:12:12 They have five other jobs that are going to pay them the same, if not more, that don’t
0:12:13 have that test.
0:12:15 And a lot of people will say, I just want the person with the character, though.
0:12:16 I’m like, you don’t understand.
0:12:18 This is opportunity cost.
0:12:19 Yeah.
0:12:20 Or they’re going to get poached on LinkedIn.
0:12:22 They’re not even going through an application.
0:12:23 No.
0:12:25 This is opportunity cost for them.
0:12:26 They have so many opportunities.
0:12:27 You have to understand.
0:12:28 They don’t give a shit about that.
0:12:32 And so a lot of people try to make it very complicated.
0:12:37 They try to think of it like the candidate should be coming to me versus how could I
0:12:39 create a better experience for the candidate?
0:12:43 And so I’ve just taken the same principles from customer experience and I put them into
0:12:47 candidate experience, which is if I was trying to nurture a lead, how would I be talking
0:12:48 to them?
0:12:49 I do the same thing with people.
0:12:51 If I think they’re going to hire, I want to hire them.
0:12:53 I’m like, I will be reaching out to them.
0:12:54 I will be talking to them.
0:12:55 I will be complimenting them.
0:12:58 I’m not going to expect them to just always come to me.
0:12:59 That’s the first thing.
0:13:01 And it does take somebody who doesn’t have, who has a good amount of humility because
0:13:04 I think a lot of people think my shit don’t stink.
0:13:05 They should be coming to me.
0:13:06 I’m like, nobody knows who the fuck you are.
0:13:08 So let’s just get over ourselves.
0:13:09 Yeah.
0:13:12 Can you talk to us about the importance of speed and hiring?
0:13:16 The average top candidate gets a job in eight days.
0:13:21 The biggest reason that any of our portfolio companies have lost a candidate is Tony.
0:13:25 He’ll interview someone on Monday and then I get like a, you know, a slack on like Thursday
0:13:26 and it’s like, Hey, I’ve got a candidate.
0:13:27 I want you to interview.
0:13:28 I’m like, Oh, did you speak with them?
0:13:29 Like what?
0:13:30 How was it?
0:13:31 Yeah.
0:13:32 Yeah.
0:13:34 No, I met with them on Monday and I’m like, it is just the same way that you would
0:13:39 nurture a lead that was a $100,000 customer is how you would want to nurture an employee
0:13:43 because often you’re paying someone 50 to $200,000, right?
0:13:45 Say you’re a small business.
0:13:48 How would you nurture a lead that was worth that much money, let alone an employee who’s
0:13:51 going to stay for a long period of time?
0:13:52 And so I think that we look at it the wrong way.
0:13:56 We think that it’s different than that, but it’s actually the same.
0:13:59 And candidates right now, especially, you know, I think it’s going to change a little
0:14:02 bit in the next coming months, but right now, you know, the ball’s still in a lot of people’s
0:14:04 courts where they have unlimited opportunity.
0:14:08 And so the companies that are out there that are getting the top talent are the ones that
0:14:13 have more robust infrastructure and are able to go faster, but if a small company is equipped
0:14:15 with this and they understand, because like when we first started Jim Auch, it was me
0:14:17 and my assistant hiring.
0:14:19 And I still was like day of.
0:14:23 We send rejection day of, we send follow up day of, we schedule, we schedule a meeting
0:14:24 from a meeting.
0:14:26 So it’s like, we get done with an interview and be like, cool, we want to do the next
0:14:27 interview.
0:14:28 Let’s schedule it right now while we’re on the call because we understood the importance
0:14:29 of speed.
0:14:31 And I think that anybody can do that.
0:14:34 It’s just a matter of understanding the importance, which is if you’re waiting more than eight
0:14:37 days to hire somebody, you’re getting worse candidates.
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0:19:00 So, I heard you say something really cool, which was we’re buying people’s brains when
0:19:01 we’re hiring.
0:19:06 We’d love to understand how we assess people’s brains for culture fit, for skills.
0:19:11 Is it really them taking a test or is it more of like a conversation that we have with them?
0:19:12 Different people do it different ways.
0:19:18 I tend to err more on the side of conversations and situational interviewing than I do hard
0:19:19 testing.
0:19:22 If you look at a lot of the practical tests people put together, those are typically the
0:19:25 same format of questions that you would have for an interview anyways.
0:19:30 So what I do is I think of, okay, what are situations in which somebody would exhibit
0:19:32 the values that we have in the company?
0:19:35 And then I will take those apart and I will break them down into questions.
0:19:38 So competitive greatness, for example, if I wanted to figure out if somebody has competitive
0:19:41 greatness I would ask them, why do you want to work?
0:19:42 What motivates you?
0:19:44 Why do you come to work every day?
0:19:49 And if somebody says, money, it’s not competitive greatness to me.
0:19:51 And if a portfolio company, I say, why do you have your company?
0:19:55 And they say, well, I want to make $10 million, I’m like, it’s not competitive greatness to
0:19:56 me.
0:19:57 It’s not competitive greatness.
0:19:58 It’s an unending process, right?
0:20:02 It’s a continuous cycle of self-improvement, knowing that the challenge itself is what
0:20:04 creates who you want to be.
0:20:08 Another example would be sincere candor, which would be, tell me, I’ll give this one, you
0:20:10 would think it’s like easy and people could fake it, but nobody ever does.
0:20:15 I say, tell me the last hard conversation you had, and tell me how it went.
0:20:18 And I swear, most of the time, nobody can think of it.
0:20:22 I could tell you when I had a day ago, I could tell you when I had a hard conversation last
0:20:23 night.
0:20:24 You know what I mean?
0:20:28 When I’m looking for someone who’s sincerely candorous, I’m going to ask that, and you’re
0:20:31 going to be able to tell by their reaction, not just what they say, but their reaction,
0:20:34 in terms of like, do they actually have that?
0:20:39 And then in terms of the skill side of it and their experience, it’s asking people to recall
0:20:40 how they drove results.
0:20:44 You know, I think it’s, you can talk about the actions you took on a daily basis, but
0:20:45 I don’t really care about that.
0:20:48 I want to know, tell me about results you drove for a company that are similar to the
0:20:51 results I’m asking you to drive here and tell me how you did it.
0:20:52 How did you go about it?
0:20:54 Give me a summary of that.
0:20:55 And that’s typically what I’ll ask.
0:20:59 So if I have somebody I’m hiring for director of customer success, and I need them to reduce
0:21:03 churn for a customer base, I’m going to say, tell me about a time that you reduced churn.
0:21:05 How much did you reduce it by?
0:21:07 And how did you go about doing that?
0:21:10 And you can tell when someone’s answering those questions, if somebody doesn’t know how
0:21:14 to do that, and you have any as the CEO, of course, like I feel like I have to have knowledge
0:21:17 of every department, like I have enough to know if somebody is bullshitting me or if like
0:21:19 the answer they’re giving is mediocre.
0:21:22 What I’m looking for most of the time is that I learned something from that interview.
0:21:25 One, I want to feel like the values are true to them.
0:21:28 The other side of the experiential piece in the education is I want to feel like they’re
0:21:30 able to teach me something on that interview.
0:21:32 And so I leave being better for it.
0:21:33 Does that make sense?
0:21:35 Yeah, total sense.
0:21:39 So I know that the end of the process is that you believe as long as you’re a relatively
0:21:45 small company, a thousand employees or less, it should end with a CEO interview.
0:21:48 And I know that a lot of small entrepreneurs, even if they have 20 employees, they do not
0:21:49 do every single interview.
0:21:52 This was one of the biggest mistakes I made as a young entrepreneur.
0:21:55 My business skill to 60 employees.
0:21:59 And it started to have lower level employees hiring my employees.
0:22:00 And then it was like a mess.
0:22:04 I had really bad talent for a little bit and I had to let go a lot of my team and it was
0:22:06 really hard.
0:22:10 And so I learned that lesson first year in business, like I will never do that again.
0:22:12 Talk just about why that’s so important.
0:22:18 I believe that if you are truly a people first company, if you really believe that your employees
0:22:22 and your team are the most important to the business, which I would argue in any sense
0:22:27 the way they are, they are the business, then you would think that the CEO would show with
0:22:32 the most valuable resource they have, which is time, not money, time, how important those
0:22:33 people are to them.
0:22:38 And I don’t think there’s a more important way or a more impressive way than having the
0:22:39 last interview.
0:22:43 And basically what I do on that interview is I show them that I’m not just here for you
0:22:47 with this job, but you as a person, which is what are your personal goals?
0:22:49 Do they align with the opportunity that we have within this business?
0:22:51 And that’s what I’m trying to figure out.
0:22:55 And so I come on there and I want to set the tone for what their relationship is going
0:23:00 to be like with us and be like with the business, which is it’s not, you’re just a number here.
0:23:01 It’s not this.
0:23:03 It’s person first, human first.
0:23:07 I want to show you why you’re important and I’m showing you right now with my time.
0:23:08 Yeah.
0:23:10 Just like a parent, if they have a kid, it’s like cool.
0:23:13 You can pay for them to like go get ice cream with their kids and go to this really cool
0:23:14 amusement park.
0:23:17 But like there’s nothing more meaningful than it being their time.
0:23:18 Yeah.
0:23:19 100%.
0:23:20 Okay.
0:23:24 So like we mentioned, a lot of people are having a little bit of trouble hiring right
0:23:25 now.
0:23:27 There’s more opportunities to start businesses.
0:23:29 It’s easier than ever to kind of be a freelancer.
0:23:31 And so people have a lot of options.
0:23:35 So I heard you say something that was really interesting to me, which was that we really
0:23:39 need to create a bigger vision so that people actually feel they can fit within that if
0:23:43 we really want them to work for us because they could just really work for themselves
0:23:44 now.
0:23:45 Could you talk to us about that?
0:23:51 So I read the book by the CEO of Blackstone where he talks about it’s just as easy to
0:23:53 create a big company as it is to create a small company.
0:23:58 And that really resonated with me because I think that what he explained is that it
0:24:02 is easier to recruit talent if you have a big vision than to recruit talent if you have
0:24:06 a small vision because big talent doesn’t want to work for a small vision.
0:24:09 And so that really hit home with me.
0:24:12 And it showed me that you can’t have one without the other.
0:24:16 It’s almost I cannot even get top talent without a big vision.
0:24:21 And you can’t create the thing that creates the vision or fulfills that vision without
0:24:22 the top talent.
0:24:24 And so that really hit home with me.
0:24:29 And I realized that you have to have a vision big enough that other people’s visions for
0:24:30 their own lives can fit inside of it.
0:24:34 And to the degree of which somebody’s vision for themselves fits inside the company is
0:24:35 how long you’ll keep them.
0:24:40 Once they see that they’ve hit a point where their personal trajectory of their life has
0:24:43 changed, say the business is here and they’re here and then they go up here.
0:24:44 Now there’s a deficit.
0:24:47 They’re feeling like they’re lacking something in the workplace because there’s some kind
0:24:50 of experience that they’re not getting from the workplace that they’re getting outside.
0:24:54 And so I think the most important thing that we can do is be very explicit about the vision,
0:24:58 be very explicit about where we’re going and very diligent in making sure that when you
0:25:01 bring people in, you understand how much runway they have.
0:25:05 I will never tell somebody that they have a long runway if I know they don’t.
0:25:09 But if somebody doesn’t have a long runway, I will absolutely tell them.
0:25:15 If somebody comes on to be an EA for me, I’m like, I don’t really want you to go anywhere.
0:25:19 I’d like you to just want to be an EA forever because anyone that’s on our administrative
0:25:24 team, there’s not a ton of upward trajectory, obviously promotions and raises in small amounts.
0:25:28 But becoming a director of operations or director of HR, that’s going to create a huge hole for
0:25:29 me to fill.
0:25:30 And so I’m not really looking for that.
0:25:36 Versus, if I bring somebody into a new department and I put them as head of business development
0:25:41 and there’s one person in there, I’m like, hey, one day I’d like you to be VP of revenue
0:25:43 or CRO.
0:25:48 And so I hire according to that, which is, what is their personal vision for themselves?
0:25:49 What’s my vision for the role?
0:25:50 And I want to make sure that the two match.
0:25:53 And I think that a lot of times when we’re recruiting, the reason a lot of people can’t
0:25:57 get good talent is because they think that they’re like, oh, it’s just money.
0:25:58 I just can’t afford to pay top talent.
0:26:02 Okay, well, when we had gym launch, I was able to get some really big talent that wouldn’t
0:26:06 have otherwise worked for us because we had enthusiasm, we had vision, and we had an ability
0:26:09 to show those people how they would be able to grow within our organization.
0:26:13 And so we didn’t have the biggest opportunity, but we could show them that their opportunity
0:26:16 could at least fit inside what we did have in that company.
0:26:19 And I think that a lot of people are just so focused on money and thinking about the
0:26:24 competition that’s trying to recruit people, I’m like, people want opportunity.
0:26:25 That’s what they really want.
0:26:27 They want to see, it’s almost like in the relationship, right?
0:26:31 When you get with a guy or a girl or whatever, right, you get in a new relationship.
0:26:34 You’re going to treat it differently if you think that you’re going to be in that relationship
0:26:35 for a long time.
0:26:37 Then you would if you think you’re only going to be there for a few weeks, a few months,
0:26:38 or even a year.
0:26:40 It’s the same when it goes for employment.
0:26:45 And so it’s reciprocated because if I feel that somebody really can feel like I can tell
0:26:48 that they think their vision fits within the company, I see how they act.
0:26:49 They see how I act.
0:26:53 It’s a much more trusting relationship and you have a lot more loyalty with each other
0:26:54 than you would otherwise.
0:26:57 And I think a lot of people just don’t use that to their advantage because, one, they’re
0:26:59 probably scared to think too big.
0:27:01 They’re worried that they’ll fail.
0:27:04 And the reality is you’ll for sure fail if you don’t think big enough that you can’t
0:27:06 attract the right talent to build something.
0:27:07 So smart.
0:27:11 And I heard you say before that basically people hop from job to job so they can level
0:27:12 up in their career.
0:27:17 They need to be able to hop in your company too from job title to job title.
0:27:20 Is there a certain way that you kind of show that to your employees or something that you
0:27:25 do to show them the trajectory or do you just give them new projects all the time?
0:27:26 Is it obvious?
0:27:28 I think for executive level, it’s a little bit different.
0:27:32 For executive level, it’s often showing the business like I have the business projected
0:27:35 for the next 10 years along with like an org chart for the next three.
0:27:39 And so people can see what kind of responsibility they’ll continue to assimilate as an executive
0:27:40 team.
0:27:43 For people under the executive team, there’s two things that we’re working on right now
0:27:46 because you have to remember acquisition.com is pretty new.
0:27:47 Competency maps.
0:27:51 So a competency map is basically showing you here’s the levels in our organization.
0:27:53 So say there’s six core levels.
0:27:56 Here’s the skills and the traits needed for each level.
0:27:59 And so if you want to get from one level to the next, here’s the skills and the traits
0:28:00 required to do so.
0:28:02 And here’s what the pay raise looks like as well.
0:28:03 Here’s what the opportunity looks like.
0:28:05 Here’s what your relationship with management looks like.
0:28:10 And so I try to do that within one, the organization as a whole, and then within each department
0:28:11 that makes sense.
0:28:13 So two that are very typical would be media.
0:28:16 So if you have a large media team, like we’re building out one for our media team right
0:28:20 now to show everyone like, here’s the levels needed to build out the media team and here’s
0:28:23 all the room you have upward trajectory wise.
0:28:24 Same with the sales team.
0:28:30 So the very traditional one is to show people based on their experience, how much, what
0:28:31 their close rate is, all those things.
0:28:34 Here’s all the levels that you can get to and here’s how much you can make along with
0:28:36 the opportunity that you’ll have in the company.
0:28:38 And so it’s called a competency map.
0:28:41 If you look it up, you can find them for other companies.
0:28:43 And for a small company, the thing is it’s actually easier to make because you have less
0:28:44 people.
0:28:48 And so you could even just show like, if you don’t even know, break it down to like three
0:28:49 levels.
0:28:54 Individual contributor, manager, leader, individual contributor, manager, executive, whatever it
0:28:55 may be.
0:28:59 And I think that if you can just start by showing people, it shows them that you give
0:29:00 a shit.
0:29:02 And I think that a lot of people are like, well, it’s not going to be perfect.
0:29:04 It’s not going to be as good as Layla’s that she’s describing.
0:29:05 Okay.
0:29:06 Well, the point is that you give a shit.
0:29:10 And that’s what people want to see is that you’re thinking about their future.
0:29:13 Most bosses don’t even think about the future of an employee.
0:29:14 It’s so true.
0:29:20 So let’s say we’ve used all your guidance, we’ve hired a great team, but if you have
0:29:25 a great team and no accountability, then you’re at risk of not getting much done.
0:29:29 So you talk about your accountability framework, you even go as far as to say that instead
0:29:33 of CEO, you call yourself the chief accountability officer.
0:29:36 Could you talk to us about your accountability formula?
0:29:37 Yeah.
0:29:45 It’s understanding that accountability doesn’t exist without measurement, without feedback,
0:29:46 and in a timely manner.
0:29:50 And so a lot of the times the two things that are missing is the measurement, which is,
0:29:52 are you showing someone where they fit on a spectrum?
0:29:55 On a scale of one to 10, how well are they doing their job?
0:29:58 Are you letting them know that they’re only at a seven and what they have to do to get
0:29:59 to a 10?
0:30:01 That’s one of the first things required for accountability.
0:30:06 It’s just like if we are a weight scale, so if I go and weigh myself, the scale is basically
0:30:10 the accountability officer, as I would say, which is the scale gives them a number, gives
0:30:11 them feedback.
0:30:16 Now, the way that we can amplify accountability, the only way that we can actually multiply
0:30:20 it is by giving the person feedback of the measurement.
0:30:23 So it’s like there’s the measurement, which is telling them how good they’re doing, and
0:30:27 then it’s how many times are you telling them in how many ways, how good they’re doing?
0:30:28 Are you doing quarterly reviews?
0:30:29 Are you doing one-on-ones?
0:30:30 Are you having conversations with them?
0:30:32 Are you slacking them feedback?
0:30:36 So like, for example, we just did a kickoff with a new partner company.
0:30:39 And the first thing I did this morning was I wrote feedback to the person that conducts
0:30:40 the kickoffs.
0:30:42 I said, “Here’s all my feedback for you.
0:30:43 Here’s how well I think you did.”
0:30:46 I actually thought this was the best one you ever did yet, right?
0:30:49 And so I’m telling him where he’s at in terms of my expectations.
0:30:55 And so the best thing that we can do as CEOs, entrepreneurs, people that employ other people
0:30:57 is really just the feedback.
0:30:59 Like if there’s one thing that you could do, because especially if you’re a small business
0:31:02 that the crux that is always, “Hey, I don’t have a measurement.
0:31:03 I don’t have things in place yet.”
0:31:08 Well, you can at least tell someone verbally in a qualitative manner how they’re doing.
0:31:11 And you can do it more than mumbling it on a call with them when they’re not really paying
0:31:14 attention in a way that doesn’t even sound direct or like it makes any sense, right?
0:31:16 Because that’s what a lot of people do.
0:31:19 The way that they give feedback is, “Oh, yeah.”
0:31:24 And then next time you do that presentation, maybe we just do it a little bit differently.
0:31:26 And it’s like they say it in a way that’s very non-direct.
0:31:31 And I think the best way to give people feedback and to hold them accountable is to be as clear
0:31:32 as possible.
0:31:35 It’s like when you measure yourself on the scale, it’s not like it says like, it’s not
0:31:36 like blurred.
0:31:37 You’re not like having to like lean in and really wonder what’s saying.
0:31:40 Like is it say 150 or 155?
0:31:41 You would be like, “I don’t know what the feedback is.
0:31:42 Did my weight go up or down?
0:31:43 Five pounds is a lot.
0:31:44 It’s a big difference.”
0:31:45 That could have been up.
0:31:46 It could have been down.
0:31:48 And so when people are vague with their feedback to employees, it’s the same as the scale being
0:31:49 that way and being vague.
0:31:52 It’s like a small amount of nuance makes a big difference.
0:31:56 And so you have to be very clear in your communication because a lot of times when someone’s delivering
0:32:00 critical feedback, the employee actually thinks that it’s positive feedback because the way
0:32:02 that they’re delivering it is so poor.
0:32:05 And so I think it’s being explicit and being able to find your voice is a really important
0:32:06 piece of that.
0:32:08 And you don’t do that unless you have app ads.
0:32:12 And so in the beginning you’re going to suck at doing it and you just have to get better
0:32:14 and better over time.
0:32:16 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:37:12 Would you say that feedback should be continual and not just like once a quarter or once a
0:37:14 year performance review?
0:37:15 100%.
0:37:19 It’s the only thing that can amplify and multiply accountability.
0:37:24 It’s the only thing that really strengthens it to a high degree is giving that feedback.
0:37:30 It’s just the more you can normalize feedback, the easier people can take it, the more likely
0:37:31 they are to act on it.
0:37:37 A lot of people avoid giving feedback and they create a culture of secrecy and of whispers
0:37:38 and gossip.
0:37:42 In reality, if you give feedback on a regular basis, everyone gets used to it and then it
0:37:43 doesn’t feel bad.
0:37:44 It’s just like discomfort.
0:37:46 It’s something that’s uncomfortable.
0:37:47 Do it enough times.
0:37:48 It’s not uncomfortable anymore.
0:37:49 Yeah.
0:37:53 It’s so important so that your employees actually get better at their jobs and continue to learn
0:37:57 and improve instead of making the same mistakes over and over again.
0:37:58 100%.
0:37:59 Okay.
0:38:01 Let’s take it from the employee perspective.
0:38:04 Let’s take it from a lot of my listeners are entrepreneurs, but at the same time, a
0:38:06 lot of them are corporate professionals.
0:38:08 They want to level up in their jobs.
0:38:12 They want to be seen by their boss, taken up for promotions.
0:38:16 What can somebody do as an employee to really stand out?
0:38:22 I get a lot of shit for this, but I believe in it, which is the only way to stand out
0:38:25 truly is to exceed expectations.
0:38:30 Humans, when expectations match reality, we are neutral.
0:38:31 We feel nothing.
0:38:33 We feel that was how it’s supposed to go.
0:38:37 If somebody does their job exactly how it’s laid out, I think to myself, that was how
0:38:38 it’s supposed to go.
0:38:43 Now, if somebody does their job worse than the job is laid out, I feel disappointed.
0:38:44 I feel frustrated.
0:38:45 I feel angry.
0:38:50 The only time somebody will really stand out a job is if they exceed expectations.
0:38:51 Meeting expectations is not enough.
0:38:52 You don’t stand out.
0:38:54 Nobody feels anything from that.
0:38:57 Truly, your nervous system does not get excited by that.
0:39:02 The moment that somebody does beyond the job description and exceeds expectations is when
0:39:09 the boss will feel truly, actually feel excited, feel elated, feel encouraged.
0:39:12 I think that a lot of employees say, “Doing my job is enough.
0:39:14 Doing beyond my job takes too much effort.”
0:39:16 It’s not always about the amount of work you’re doing.
0:39:18 It’s how you do the work.
0:39:23 You can exceed expectations in the way you do something, not even just there’s doing
0:39:28 something and completing a mission, which is expected, but how you do it is also what’s
0:39:29 going to make a difference.
0:39:33 If you’re told to make a presentation to train a team, you can make a presentation
0:39:36 that can train a team and it could be sufficient, or it could have animations.
0:39:38 You could bring in a guest speaker.
0:39:40 You could think about it like that.
0:39:43 To the degree at which you do every of your daily tasks is the degree at which you will
0:39:47 impress the person, whether you exceed expectations on a consistent basis in the tasks you’re
0:39:51 doing or whether you’re not meeting expectations because just meeting them, you’ll just blend
0:39:52 in.
0:39:53 I totally agree.
0:39:56 There’s this trend of quite quitting I was talking about.
0:40:00 Basically what it is is a lot of people have just said, “I’m going to do the bare minimum.”
0:40:04 To your point, they feel like I should just do what I get paid for and that’s it.
0:40:09 If you do that, no one’s going to … As a boss, nobody wants an employee like that.
0:40:14 You want an employee who’s going to be worth 10 times what you pay them, right?
0:40:17 That’s why you’re going to promote them and let them lead and become a manager.
0:40:20 I feel like that’s just a recipe for not moving in your job.
0:40:21 It is.
0:40:22 Here’s the thing.
0:40:26 I talked about this and I got a lot of backlash in terms of people saying, “Layla, these people
0:40:27 treat me like shit.
0:40:28 They don’t give me promotions.
0:40:29 They don’t give me raises.
0:40:30 I’m not recognized.”
0:40:38 I understand that, but I just don’t think that acting in despite of someone else’s actions
0:40:39 is going to help anybody.
0:40:43 Because at the end of the day, for me, I had plenty of jobs before I had my own company.
0:40:49 How I acted was more important to me for who I was, for my integrity with myself than it
0:40:52 was for the person I was working for because it’s not about them.
0:40:57 It’s about me, who I am, how I work, how I show up when nobody else gives a shit.
0:40:59 For me, it’s not even about either of these things.
0:41:03 It’s about who are you because you’re not defined by how you think and feel.
0:41:05 You are defined by the actions you take.
0:41:09 If you act like a lazy person and you don’t work, you are a lazy person.
0:41:12 It’s like when people say, “If you feel it, nobody cares how you feel.
0:41:15 They just care how you behave and that is what you are identified with.
0:41:16 You are identified with your actions.”
0:41:18 People are like, “Oh, he had good intentions.
0:41:19 I’m going to fuck.
0:41:20 Intention doesn’t equal impact.”
0:41:23 It’s like, “Well, this boss isn’t going to be approachable.”
0:41:27 I’m like, “That says a lot about you because I can tell you that I worked my fucking ass
0:41:30 off for years in jobs that I never got a raise and I never got a promotion.
0:41:34 I did it because that’s who I am and I do everything with excellence.”
0:41:38 To me, it’s the employees are shooting themselves in the foot because they are degrading their
0:41:39 own character.
0:41:41 I don’t care about the boss piece.
0:41:43 I’m just talking to you as a human, which is like, “Why are you doing that to yourself?”
0:41:45 You’re literally fucking yourself by doing that.
0:41:46 Yeah.
0:41:50 Not to mention that your vibe and your energy is that of a lazy person.
0:41:51 You’re going to attract lazy opportunities.
0:41:54 You’re not going to be even to be able to attract the things that you want in your life
0:41:56 because you’re not doing them.
0:41:58 I totally agree with that.
0:41:59 Okay.
0:42:00 Closing this out, Layla.
0:42:01 What a great interview.
0:42:06 I heard you on Brooke Castillo’s show and you teased possibly starting a podcast.
0:42:09 Do you want to tell us about your possible new podcast?
0:42:10 Yeah.
0:42:13 If anyone out there is a podcast producer, that’s the only reason I haven’t launched
0:42:14 it yet.
0:42:15 Oh.
0:42:18 Just so you know, we have a whole media company over here.
0:42:19 Okay.
0:42:20 Yeah.
0:42:22 Truthfully, that’s all it is.
0:42:23 I want to start a podcast.
0:42:28 I want to call it “Build With Layla,” build your business, build your life, build yourself,
0:42:29 build your company.
0:42:33 I think just talking about building in general, and I liked that word.
0:42:35 Hopefully, it’s to come by next quarter.
0:42:39 I’m not sure yet, but it’ll be a little different than the YouTube channel, but a lot of the
0:42:41 same kind of content.
0:42:42 Awesome.
0:42:45 Let me know when it comes out so I can tell my listeners to tune in.
0:42:46 All right.
0:42:50 We close out this interview with two questions that we ask and then we round them out and
0:42:51 summarize them at the end of the year.
0:42:56 The first one is, what is one actionable thing that our young and profiteers can do today
0:42:59 to become more profitable tomorrow?
0:43:04 Take a list of five things that you can do tomorrow that you’ve been avoiding because
0:43:06 they’re uncomfortable and do them.
0:43:11 Despite how you feel, despite how you rest tonight, despite how, you know, your mood
0:43:16 is tomorrow, commit to five things tomorrow that you’ve been avoiding, write them down
0:43:18 and do them.
0:43:20 Get uncomfortable, right?
0:43:23 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
0:43:27 The ability to take action quickly after failure.
0:43:30 So I think that a lot of the times when we’re getting uncomfortable and we’re doing things
0:43:32 that are uncomfortable, we fail, we stumble.
0:43:35 I do not let that, I don’t dwell on my failure.
0:43:36 I don’t find that to be productive.
0:43:40 I can, I just get up and I go and I try it again immediately, not the next day, not
0:43:41 a week later.
0:43:42 I try to do it immediately.
0:43:45 And so I think that there’s nothing wrong with failing.
0:43:48 It’s the fact that most people dwell on their failure for so long that that becomes their
0:43:51 life when you could have just gotten up the next day and done it again.
0:43:52 I love that.
0:43:55 And where can everybody learn more about you and everything that you do?
0:43:57 You can go to acquisition.com.
0:44:00 We have some free courses on there for business.
0:44:04 And you can opt in for our email list and we email out like just interesting nuggets.
0:44:10 You could also go to @LailaHormozzi on Instagram, @LailaHormozzi on YouTube, and @LailaHormozzi
0:44:11 on Twitter.
0:44:13 And I am pretty active on those three platforms.
0:44:14 Awesome.
0:44:16 And I’m going to stick all those links in the show notes.
0:44:18 Thank you so much for your time today.
0:44:19 Thank you for having me.
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