#453 – Javier Milei: President of Argentina – Freedom, Economics, and Corruption

0:00:04 The following is a conversation with Javier Malay, the president of Argentina.
0:00:12 He is a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist, and economist who campaigned with the chainsaw
0:00:17 that symbolized his promise to slash the corrupt bureaucracy of the state.
0:00:24 He stepped into the presidency one year ago, with a country on the brink of hyperinflation,
0:00:31 deep in debt and suffering from mass unemployment and poverty. He took this crisis head on,
0:00:36 transforming one of Latin America’s largest economies through pure free market principles.
0:00:44 In just a few months in office, he already achieved Argentina’s first fiscal surplus in 16 years,
0:00:50 and not just avoided hyperinflation, but brought inflation down to its lowest in three years.
0:00:55 We discuss all of this in detail, both the successes and the challenges.
0:01:01 His depth of knowledge of economic principles, metrics, and data was truly impressive,
0:01:07 and refreshing to hear from a world leader. But even bigger than the economic transformation of
0:01:13 Argentina, Javier represents the universal fight against government corruption and the fight for
0:01:20 freedom, economic freedom, political freedom, and freedom of speech. He has many critics,
0:01:24 many of whom are part of the corrupt establishment he’s seeking to dismantle.
0:01:29 But many are simply Argentinian citizens, scared of the pain
0:01:32 his radical policies may bring, at least in the short term.
0:01:38 But whether one disagrees with his methods or not, no one can deny that his presidency
0:01:44 marks one of the most ambitious attempts at economic transformation in modern history,
0:01:50 and that Javier Malay is truly a force of nature, combining the rigor of an economist
0:01:55 with the passion of a revolutionary in the fight for freedom of a nation he loves.
0:02:01 Argentina is one of my favorite countries, so I sincerely hope he succeeds.
0:02:08 This interview was conducted with the president speaking Spanish and me speaking English,
0:02:13 with an interpreter simultaneously translating. We make the episode available,
0:02:20 overdubbed and subtitled in both English and Spanish, thanks to our great friends at 11 Labs.
0:02:24 If you’re watching on YouTube, you can switch between English and Spanish by
0:02:27 clicking the gear icon, selecting audio track, and then choosing the language.
0:02:33 Same with the captions. If you’re watching on X, I’ll post both Spanish and English versions
0:02:38 separately. If you’re watching on Spotify or listening elsewhere, I’ll probably only post the
0:02:44 English version. This is the first time for me doing something like this, in a foreign language.
0:02:50 It was challenging, but illuminating. I hope to continue talking to many world leaders for
0:02:56 two to three hours in this way, including Volodymyr Zelensky, Volodymyr Putin, Narendra Modi,
0:03:04 and Xi Jinping. I want to explore who they are, how they think, and how they hope to help their
0:03:10 country and humanity flourish. And now a quick few second mention of a sponsor.
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0:04:31 I do think doctor in front of the name is a useful thing for people that obviously got a
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0:05:42 For some reason, I just thought of Mark Andreessen, one of the great minds in Silicon Valley in tech.
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0:06:37 you know, accessible to a lot of people. It’s still at this time very, very expensive,
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0:06:48 technology improves. I really want to be playing with this technology. But the thing I want to
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0:07:34 in under 48 hours. I was really pumped talking to President Javier Millet about life, frankly.
0:07:41 I could probably talk to him for many more hours. Such a brilliant but kind-hearted, warm person
0:07:48 on mic, but I got a chance to interact with him a bunch before and after off mic and just a warm
0:07:54 person. Just a human being who saw me, who noticed me, who smiled and just had this way.
0:08:04 That’s not just maybe a fake charisma. It’s a real human charisma and a nervousness and a joy,
0:08:11 all of that together. Obviously, a brilliance backed by a set of principles and a desire to see
0:08:20 freedom win. There is a sense that freedom is a powerful force for the human mind.
0:08:27 A lot of our conversation was focused on economics, but the responsibility and the possibility
0:08:34 of taking control of your own destiny is a powerful idea. It’s an American idea,
0:08:41 and there are many other places in the world that are captivated by that idea. He’s one of the great
0:08:49 elucidators and implementers of that idea. I love Argentina, so I hope that he succeeds.
0:08:54 Anyway, all that to say is freedom is good for the mind, and another thing that’s good for the
0:09:00 mind is better help. Check them out at betterhelp.com/lex and save in your first month. That’s betterhelp.com/lex.
0:09:07 This episode is brought to you by AG1, an all-in-one daily drink to support better health
0:09:14 and peak performance. You know what I drink AG1 after? I drink AG1 after a long soccer,
0:09:20 aka football game. I used to play a lot of both soccer and football. Obviously, I played a lot
0:09:25 of soccer and childhood. I say that obviously because most of the world except the United States,
0:09:29 that’s kind of the sport that every kid plays because it’s so accessible.
0:09:34 Anyway, I was a big fan of Diego, Armando, Maradona when I was growing up and just
0:09:42 seeing the World Cups in which we played the famous Goal of the Century and the Head of God Goal and
0:09:49 just the aura and the genius and the feel he had was mesmerizing and just inspiring for a kid.
0:09:56 When Leonor Messi came around, I think I first saw when he was in the youth league, 17,
0:10:03 maybe 16, 17, I’m not sure. There was something else. There was just genius there. I do consider
0:10:12 it a huge gift to humanity that his genius only developed, it grew, it flourished. It was a tragedy
0:10:16 that he didn’t win the World Cup for the longest time or didn’t help Argentina win the World Cup
0:10:23 until very recently, which he did and he completed. He won everything you could possibly win and that
0:10:30 was such a beautiful historic moment. The greatest player of all time, Leonor Messi, in my opinion,
0:10:37 in most people’s opinion. I do hope to talk to him in this experiment, this chance I got to
0:10:43 talk to Javier Malay with an interpreter and all this mess and I apologize if I screwed it all up
0:10:49 in different ways. I really tried. I tried to figure out how we could make him most accessible
0:10:55 for both English and Spanish speakers and all that kind of stuff. All that had to come together
0:11:00 in just a handful of days. I think like three days I had to figure it all out and never done
0:11:06 anything like it. So this sort of emboldened me, gave me confidence that it’s possible to do. And
0:11:11 there is, of course, a Spanish speaker that I would very much love to talk to and his name,
0:11:16 like I said, is Leonor Messi. And so now I’m a little bit more confident that that is something
0:11:24 I could handle if given the opportunity. And I hope to celebrate him properly if I ever get a
0:11:31 chance to speak with him. Anyway, try out AG1. They’ll give you one month supply of fish oil
0:11:37 when you sign up at drinkag1.com/lex. This episode is also brought to you by Element,
0:11:44 my daily zero sugar and delicious electrolyte mix. Oh, and I should also say that I don’t get a
0:11:48 chance to play soccer that much these days. And I’m not sure why. I think for a couple of years,
0:11:56 I had a few injuries, like slight injuries related to jujitsu that made sort of the sprinting and
0:12:02 maybe the fast turning and the pivoting and the planting of feet, all that kind of stuff
0:12:10 for many hours at a time difficult. Or rather, I should say, I was trying to let the injuries heal
0:12:15 if I played a lot of soccer, they just wouldn’t heal. But soccer is, as a sport, one of my favorite
0:12:22 sports to participate in. And as a form of exercise, it makes time just disappear. Like I could do
0:12:30 sprint after sprint after sprint, running around the field for hours. And like a little kid still,
0:12:35 I just forget time. You don’t realize how much calories you burn. You don’t think about anything.
0:12:41 You don’t realize how exhausted you are. You’re just full of joy and the competition, the excitement,
0:12:47 maybe it puts me right back there to all the football games I’ve watched as a kid.
0:12:52 Like I’m now pretending to be Maradona. I’m not pretending to be Leonon Messi. I’m
0:12:59 not pretending to be all those sort of superstars and enjoying the fun of it.
0:13:07 Yeah. Anyway, before and after I would probably drink an element. Get a sample pack for free
0:13:16 with any purchase. Try it at drinkelement.com/lex. By the way, you know, this is the first time I’m
0:13:25 trying something like this. The episode I’m publishing on this audio feed is an English
0:13:31 dubbed audio track. And the voice cloning is done by AI. Thank you for our great help.
0:13:37 Thank you for the help from the great 11 Labs team. And there’s a lot of human in the loop,
0:13:43 improving the translation, improving the voice, all that kind of stuff. But I’m not sure what kind
0:13:50 of thing makes it a pleasant experience for just audio listeners. And I primarily myself am usually
0:14:00 an RSS audio listener. So I really care about this medium of podcasting. It is the original,
0:14:10 the main, to me way to consume podcast freedom. As Javier said, “Viva la libertad carajo.”
0:14:17 Yeah, I truly believe that RSS is freedom. That’s what podcasting is all about.
0:14:22 This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it,
0:14:35 please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here’s Javier Malay.
0:14:49 When did you first understand the value of freedom, especially economic freedom?
0:14:54 Well, actually, I came to understand the ideas of freedom.
0:15:01 As an economic growth specialist back in the years of 2013 to 2014,
0:15:10 I could see that per capita GDP statistics over the last 2000 years of the Christian era
0:15:19 essentially looked like a hockey stick, indicating that per capita GDP remained almost constant until
0:15:27 around 1800, after which it accelerated sharply. In the same context of that phenomenal increase
0:15:35 in productivity and per capita GDP, the population had multiplied sevenfold over the preceding 200
0:15:44 years. So basically, in economics, that means you get increasing returns, and the presence of
0:15:51 increasing returns implies the existence of monopolies, concentrated structures, and according
0:15:57 to traditional neoclassical economic theory, the presence of monopolies and concentrated
0:16:04 structures is not a good thing. But at the same time, one could see that living standards had
0:16:11 increased tremendously, and that middle-income people ended up living far better than emperors
0:16:20 did in the Roman era, and the population had gone from having 95% of people in extreme poverty
0:16:27 to less than 10%. And in that context, the question was how it could be that something
0:16:32 that had lifted so many people out of poverty, that had improved human condition so much,
0:16:37 could be something bad for economic theory, meaning something was not right.
0:16:47 So in that context, I remember that one of the people who worked on my team suggested I read
0:16:54 an article by Murray Newton Rothbard called Monopoly and Competition. I remember reading it
0:17:01 like it was today. And after reading it carefully, I said, “Everything I’ve taught about market
0:17:09 structure in the last 20 years in courses on microeconomics is wrong. This caused a very
0:17:17 strong internal commotion in me, so I called this person who used to work with me, and they recommended
0:17:25 a place to buy Austrian School of Economics books. And I remember I bought at least 20 or 30 books,
0:17:33 which I went to pick up one Saturday afternoon. And when I visited the bookstore, I was fascinated
0:17:39 by all the stuff they had there. So I went back the next day and I started calculating how much
0:17:46 money I needed to pay for my dog’s food. That’s my four-legged child and how much I needed to
0:17:55 spend on the taxi fare and food. And then with what I have left, I spent all of it on more books.
0:18:01 And then I started to read very intensively. And I remember, for example, the experience
0:18:10 of reading “Human Action” by Mises. And this was a book that I didn’t know about. And I remember
0:18:18 that on the following weekend, I started to read this book right from the first page. And I didn’t
0:18:25 stop until I finished it, and that was a true revolution in my head. And having the chance to
0:18:36 read Austrian authors like Rothbard, Mises, Hayek, Hoppe, and Jesus Huerta de Soto, or others like
0:18:42 Juan Ramon Ralo, Philip Bagus, and Walter Bloch, for example.
0:18:50 That was very inspirational. And at one point, I got the opportunity to read
0:18:58 related to the works of Alberto Venegas-Linchijo. And I also had the pleasure and honor to meet him.
0:19:07 And today, we are actually friends. So that paved the way for me to approach the ideas of freedom.
0:19:14 And another book that was a very significant influence and impact on me was “The Principles
0:19:22 of Political Economics” by Menger. It was truly eye-opening. Or let’s say, for reading “Ogen von
0:19:34 Biumbavark”. These were things that really challenged all of my former thinking. I had a vague idea
0:19:42 and poor about the Austrian school. The only thing I had read about the Austrian school until then had
0:19:53 been “Money and Time”, a very good book by Garrison. But now that I understand a little bit more about
0:20:01 Austrian economics, I know that it was rather poor. This doesn’t mean that the book isn’t good.
0:20:08 But there were a whole lot of things to read that ended up being truly fascinating.
0:20:17 So from that, what is now today, and maybe you can talk about the evolution, is your philosophy,
0:20:21 economics philosophy. You’ve described yourself as an anarcho-capitalist,
0:20:28 market anarchist, libertarian. That’s the ideal. And then maybe in practice, in reality,
0:20:34 you’ve said that you’re more of a “minarchist”. So lay it all out. What’s your economics philosophy
0:20:43 today? Strictly speaking, I am an anarcho-capitalist. I despise the state government. I despise violence.
0:20:52 Let us suppose we take the definition of “liberalism”. I usually use the definition of “liberalism”
0:21:00 given by Alberto Venegas Linchijo, which is very much in line with the definition of John Locke,
0:21:08 which essentially matches the definition by Alberto Venegas Linch Jr., who said that “liberalism
0:21:14 is the unrestricted respect for the life project of others based on the principle of non-aggression
0:21:20 and in defense of the right to life, liberty and property”. So I frame all of the discussions
0:21:27 within those terms. And the fact is that when you get to that notion, I would dare say that
0:21:34 you become an anarcho-capitalist de facto. And what that describes, it is an idea,
0:21:41 which represents my ideal world. I mean, that is the ideal world. Now real life poses a whole
0:21:48 lot of restraints. And some of those you can lift, and those restrictions and others you can’t.
0:21:58 So, in real life, I am a monarchist. I advocate for minimizing state size. I try to remove as
0:22:04 many regulations as possible. In fact, that is what I used to say during my campaign,
0:22:08 and let’s say that is what I’m now carrying out. We have just carried out the largest structural
0:22:14 reform in Argentine history. It is a structural reform that is eight times larger than Menem’s,
0:22:20 which had been the largest structural reform in history. And we did that with 15 percent of the
0:22:26 representatives and 10 percent of the senators. Furthermore, we have a deregulation ministry
0:22:32 where basically every day we eliminate between one and five regulations. On the other hand,
0:22:39 we have 3,200 additional structural reforms pending to the point that the day we finish all
0:22:46 these reforms, we will be the freest country on the planet with the consequences they have in terms
0:22:52 of well-being. Think about this. When Ireland started market reforms just over 40 years ago,
0:22:59 it was the poorest country in Europe. Today, its GDP per capita is 50 percent higher than that of
0:23:10 the United States. So, I have a current situation, and what I am constantly looking for, whether
0:23:18 from my academic works and my outreach notes and books, is the world we have today. That every
0:23:26 day we are closer, that every day we gain more freedom, because there are some very interesting
0:23:34 things here. First, I would like to quote Milton Friedman. There is a moment when they do an
0:23:40 interview with Milton Friedman, and they ask him about liberals, and then he says that there are
0:23:46 three types of liberals. There are the classical liberals, where, for example, Adam Smith or Milton
0:23:53 Friedman himself could fit. Some say that Hayek could fit into that category. For me, Hayek is a
0:23:59 minarchist. Then you have the minarchist, where you could clearly find, in that place,
0:24:11 Mises Hayek. One could find, in philosophical terms, Nosig, and basically Einrend, and at one point,
0:24:18 Milton Friedman, based on his own son, he says, “But if you look closely, there are some who are
0:24:25 anarchists. Let’s say, probably from my point of view, the person who has been the greatest
0:24:36 inspiration in my life is essentially Murray Newton Rothbard. Therefore, there are two dimensions.
0:24:44 One is where I want to go, and the topic is where I stand. The most important thing is to try each
0:24:53 day to advance further toward that ideal of anarcho-capitalism. In that sense, sometimes we
0:25:01 face strong and harsh criticism regarding that ideal vision. I think that’s the Nirvana fallacy.
0:25:07 If you compare yourself against paradise, everything is horrible and miserable,
0:25:14 but you don’t live in paradise. You live on earth. Basically, what you need to understand
0:25:20 is something called the state conditions. Let’s suppose that you don’t like rectangular tables.
0:25:31 You prefer circular tables. Now, the reality is, I have only a few hours until I go and catch my
0:25:39 flight, and the table is rectangular. You like a circular table around one, but there isn’t one.
0:25:47 What you have is a rectangular table. So either we do the interview here or we just can’t do it.
0:25:54 So what do you do? You adapt to the current conditions. This is what there is now. So then
0:26:00 you have some restrictions that you can change and others that you cannot. The idea is to modify
0:26:06 all the ones that can be changed in the short term and start working on those that can be modified
0:26:15 in the medium or long term. For example, if you really like round tables, perhaps the next interview
0:26:20 we may do at a round table, we’re going to try and solve it, but today it’s something that we
0:26:28 couldn’t possibly solve. So that’s basically the idea, right? Let’s say it’s about understanding
0:26:35 that some restrictions you can’t change, others you can, and there are institutional restrictions too.
0:26:41 There are many anarcho-capitalists who are dedicated to criticizing,
0:26:45 and incredibly, they do so with more violence towards liberals.
0:26:54 And many of them actually criticize me, which truly make no sense because it is precisely
0:27:06 the nirvana fallacy. But the reality is that, look, in Argentina, for example,
0:27:13 the most popular sport is soccer. When you go to watch an Argentina match, it is beautiful.
0:27:18 The stands are full and they’re all painted with sky blue and white colors.
0:27:25 There is a lot of joy. People sing songs that are very fun, that are very distinctive.
0:27:36 It’s very much part of Argentine folklore, so to speak. But you see, that beautiful show is
0:27:41 external. That is to say, it does not determine the outcome. You place the ball in the middle of
0:27:46 the field and no matter how much people shout, the ball doesn’t move. The one who moves the ball
0:27:54 and scores the goals is messy. So, what do I mean? If you don’t get involved and don’t get into it,
0:28:03 no, you don’t do anything. So, I mean, what do I know is that there are many liberals, libertarians,
0:28:09 and anarcho-capitalists who are really useless because all they do is criticize, let’s say,
0:28:14 those of us who want to lead the world toward the ideas of freedom, and what they don’t realize
0:28:21 is that power is a zero-sum game. And if we don’t have it, then the left will have it.
0:28:29 Therefore, if you level your harshest criticism at those in your own ranks, you end up being
0:28:40 subservient to socialism, probably. And also, for instance, you have cases of strong hypocrisy,
0:28:48 let’s say, I have seen cases of agarists. I mean, it’s the anarcho-capitalists who
0:28:54 criticize Rothbard because he said that you have to get into politics, otherwise the socialist will
0:29:04 advance. And it’s interesting because some of them, I have seen them criticizing, proposing agorism.
0:29:13 And I remember one of them, one day, the police showed up, and honestly, he was peeing himself.
0:29:22 So, I mean, it’s very easy to criticize, propose, and suggest, but if he was truly such an agonist,
0:29:28 he should have been willing to endure going to jail. However, when it was time to face the
0:29:34 consequences of the idea he was promoting, he froze, wet his pants, and ended up, let’s say,
0:29:40 accepting all the restrictions because, clearly, it was better to be out of jail than in jail.
0:29:51 But in doing so, he sold out his ideas. So, it seems to me that no, not taking into account the
0:30:00 restrictions of the situation only serves to be functional to socialism because all it does is
0:30:08 strike against one’s own. So, you became president 11 months ago. Can you again describe some of
0:30:13 the actions you took? For example, you cut half the number of government ministries,
0:30:20 layoffs, removed price controls. It would be interesting to lay out the first steps and what’s
0:30:26 next. If you allow me, I will first give you a description of the situation we received,
0:30:34 and based on that, I will tell you each of the things we did when we first
0:30:43 took office. Basically, what we found was that in the first week of December, inflation was
0:30:55 rising at a rate of 1% per day, which means 3,700% annually. In the first half of December,
0:31:03 it had accelerated to 7,500% annually. When you look at wholesale inflation in December of last
0:31:12 year, it was 54%, which, if annualized, would equate to an inflation rate of 17,000% per year.
0:31:19 And, in addition, Argentina, for the previous 10 years, had not been growing,
0:31:31 with a drop in GDP per capita of approximately 15%. And the reality was that nearly 50% were
0:31:40 living in poverty. Now, later, I will get deeper into that discussion. And the reality is that we
0:31:48 had a fiscal deficit, which amounted to 15% of GDP. Five points were in the Treasury,
0:31:53 10 points were in the central bank, which was endogenous monetary issuance.
0:32:02 And the reality is that we also had interest-bearing liabilities at the central bank equivalent
0:32:09 to four monetary bases, maturing in one day, meaning we could have quintupled the amount
0:32:16 of money in one day. We had peso-denominated maturities amounting to the equivalent of
0:32:24 $90 billion. The central bank had negative net currency foreign reserves minus $12 billion.
0:32:32 We had commercial debts in the central bank equivalent to $50 billion. There were company
0:32:42 dividends held back amounting to $10 billion. Therefore, if we had instantly opened up,
0:32:46 you see, I say we are liberal libertarians. We are not liberal fools.
0:32:55 That’s what some anarchist liberal suggested, meaning that we basically open everything on the
0:33:04 first day. So in that context, of course, if we had done that, we would have encountered hyperinflation.
0:33:11 Therefore, that would have led to the number of poor people being around 95%.
0:33:19 And probably, and by December, the Peronis party would have organized supermarket
0:33:25 sleutings and would have done all sorts of things and would have probably been ousted.
0:33:29 And by the first part of the year, the Peronis would have gone back to office.
0:33:39 So to us, it was crucial to end fiscal deficit. One of the things we promised during the campaign
0:33:48 had been to reduce the number of ministries. And indeed, we reduced to less than half the
0:33:51 number of ministries because we went to nine ministries. Today, we have eight.
0:33:58 We have also laid off a large number of civil employees. Today, I can say that we have already
0:34:07 dismissed about 50,000 of them. And we practically don’t renew any contracts unless the positions
0:34:16 are absolutely necessary. At the same time, we have stopped public works and we have eliminated
0:34:24 discretionary transfers to the provinces. We have also diluted public sector wages.
0:34:32 Also, we have eliminated economic subsidies by restoring utility rates to the right levels.
0:34:44 And in that, let’s say in this context, we achieved fiscal balance as far as the treasury is concerned.
0:34:52 This is very important because in the last 123 years, Argentina had a deficit for 113 of them.
0:34:58 And in the 10 years, it did not have a deficit because it was not paying the debt. So that was
0:35:05 absolutely false. And they told us it would be impossible to do that. We had planned to do so
0:35:11 within a year. And they said it wasn’t possible to adjust by more than one percentage point.
0:35:19 And we achieved fiscal balance in the month of January that is the first month of administration.
0:35:28 At the same time, we also cut social plans linked to intermediation. This is very important
0:35:35 because we knew we were going to make a very tough adjustment. And we knew that this was going to have
0:35:44 a cost in social terms. And we knew that we had to offer support during the first month,
0:35:51 I mean the first quarter and second quarter in office. One of the things we did was to eliminate
0:35:58 what are known as poverty managers, that is intermediaries. Basically, people have a card
0:36:06 through which they receive assistance. But it happens that they had to provide a counter service.
0:36:13 And that counter service was verified by a group called the Picateros. So in that context,
0:36:20 when they were going to sign, the counter service took away half of the money. So by removing that
0:36:26 payoff, they stopped extorting them, stopped stealing their money. And with the same amount of money,
0:36:33 they received double the resources. And of course, we also provided an additional boost.
0:36:40 So let’s say that this is related to the five adjustment points in the Treasury.
0:36:47 Now what happens? As we began to achieve fiscal balance and no longer needed to issue money to
0:36:55 finance ourselves. And as we also met interest payments and some capital repayments. One of the
0:37:01 things that happened is that the debt market began to be recreated. So we were able to take
0:37:06 debt out of the central bank and transfer it to the Treasury where it should have always been.
0:37:14 And that meant an adjustment of approximately 10% of GDP. Everyone said this would be impossible
0:37:19 and couldn’t be fixed. Essentially, what we did was implement a fiscal adjustment at the
0:37:27 central bank amounting to 10% of GDP. So if you ask me, it’s clear that we have not only made the
0:37:32 biggest fiscal adjustment in the history of humanity, because we made a fiscal adjustment
0:37:41 of 15 points of the GDP. But also most of that went back to the people as less seniority,
0:37:46 as a lower inflation rate. It’s true that we temporarily raised the country tax,
0:37:51 but we lowered it in September. And now in December, we’re going to eliminate it.
0:37:57 Today, for example, we also announced that in December, we are eliminating import taxes.
0:38:06 In fact, in that regard, what you have is that we return to the people 13.5 points of GDP
0:38:14 because the real tax burden is the size of the state. So while back in December, we were discussing
0:38:22 hyperinflation, today we are discussing 30-year loans. In other words, all those resources that
0:38:28 the national government used to take are now back in the private sector. And that’s what has
0:38:35 allowed it to be very dynamic. And this has two very strong impacts. The first one is that if you
0:38:44 look at wholesale inflation, it went down from 54% to 2%. So it went down by 27 times. It was
0:38:52 divided into 27. So we had inflation at a rate of 17,000% annually. And it’s now close to about
0:39:01 28% a year. But it’s not only that. You could consider consumer inflation. The latest consumer
0:39:09 inflation rate was 2.7%. Now it happens that we, essentially due to a matter that is related to
0:39:16 the central bank’s balance sheets and also due to the debt stocks, we still have controls in place
0:39:24 and we are eliminating restrictions day by day. Now, the interesting thing is that we have a 2%
0:39:30 monthly day valuation standard. And there’s international inflation, of course,
0:39:37 which means that you then have to subtract 2.5 points from the inflation observed by the consumer.
0:39:42 This indicates that inflation in Argentina, the true inflation, not the induced one, but
0:39:52 the actual monetary inflation is 0.2% per month. At 0.2% per month, this equates to 2.4% annually.
0:39:58 What I’m saying is the original discussion was about whether inflation could reach 17,000%.
0:40:08 Now, we are bringing inflation down to levels of 2.5% annually. And that is amazing. And we
0:40:16 achieve this by considering a number of factors. The first one is that we did not experience a
0:40:22 previous hyperinflation, which would have simplified the process of implementing a stabilization
0:40:29 program. Typically, when hyperinflation occurs, monetary assets are diluted, leading to a natural
0:40:37 restoration of demand. And besides, we did not resort to any expropriation. For example, before
0:40:41 the convertibility plan, which was the most successful program in Argentina’s history,
0:40:46 Argentina experienced two instances of hyperinflation. During Alfonseen’s administration,
0:40:53 inflation reached 5,000% and under Menem, it was 1,200%. Additionally, there was the bonex plan,
0:40:59 under which debt was exchanged on a compulsory basis. In other words, what we did instead was
0:41:07 clean up the central bank balance sheet. So with that, we cleaned up the central bank’s balance
0:41:15 sheet. We cleared a loss of $45 billion, all voluntarily. And the most amazing thing is that
0:41:21 we did it in just six months. And at the same time, we have not controlled prices, nor have we
0:41:28 fixed the exchange rate. And this is very important. All previous stabilization programs
0:41:35 in an effort to show quick results used to do this. What they would do is, before announcing
0:41:41 the plan, they would adjust the rates. And once the rates were adjusted, they would launch the plan.
0:41:49 But in our case, we couldn’t afford that luxury. So we had to implement it on the go. And also,
0:41:55 over the past few months, that is to say, companies brought in rates that covered only
0:42:03 about 10%. Whereas today, they cover 80%. So you get the picture. Just imagine the adjustment we
0:42:10 are making. And in that sense, it is also incredible what we have achieved. Because if we were to work
0:42:16 with the inflation we have in our country today, considering the exchange rate situation, the
0:42:22 figures are even better than during the convertibility program, which was the most successful
0:42:30 economic program in Argentina’s history. And in fact, there is an article called Passing the Buck,
0:42:36 which is by Cerrado de la Paulera Bozzoli and Irriguin, that demonstrates that Menem’s first
0:42:44 government was the best government in history. And basically, it argues two things, in the success
0:42:51 of the stabilization of the convertibility program. So if you take a closer look, when you examine it
0:42:58 carefully, when you account for all these factors, our disinflation process is actually much more
0:43:04 genuine. And not only that, it’s also much deeper. We are restored freedoms to Argentinians while
0:43:12 simultaneously implementing a structural reform eight times larger. And we accomplish this with only
0:43:19 with 15% of the representatives, 10% of the senators, and within the first six months of
0:43:27 government. In other words, our deregulation agenda continues daily, and we still have 3,200
0:43:33 structural reforms pending. This will ultimately make Argentina the freest country in the world.
0:43:40 Moreover, to have a sense of magnitude, the reforms that we already have made with the
0:43:48 Executive Order 7023, and with the basis law, we have actually jumped 90 places in terms of economic
0:43:54 freedom. What this means is that today, Argentina has institutions similar to those of Germany,
0:44:02 France, Italy, and we obviously want this to continue. And let’s say we are going to surpass,
0:44:07 no doubt, the levels of economic freedom that Ireland reached in its best moment. And not only
0:44:13 that, we’re going to exceed the levels of economic freedom of Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland.
0:44:16 We are undoubtedly going to be the freest country in the world. And this,
0:44:25 and this means that thanks to what we’ve done today, we are on a path that allows us to multiply
0:44:33 our per capita GDP by 2.5 times when you apply the relevant correction. And this, of course,
0:44:40 is something very interesting because it implies a huge increase in well-being. And furthermore,
0:44:45 today, the Argentinian economy is already strongly and amazingly recovering.
0:44:51 And we can say, analysts’ hypotheses were suggesting that next year we would be growing
0:44:59 between 5% and 6%. Today, JP Morgan has now corrected, or let’s say revised the projections
0:45:04 upwards. And besides, when we normalised the price situation, the true poverty rate came up,
0:45:12 and it was 57% in January. Today it is at 46%, meaning we lowered poverty by 11 percentage
0:45:19 points. Let’s say, I mean, it seems truly like a miracle. And not only that, but actually not
0:45:24 a single job was lost in the process. When it comes to all of this inflation reduction process,
0:45:30 people said that our economy and economic activity would collapse. And actually,
0:45:36 when you look at the de-seasonalised data, you see that in August there was a recovery that
0:45:43 took us back to December levels, to December levels. That means that in the year we made the
0:45:49 largest fiscal adjustment in the history of humanity, we will end up with less inflation,
0:45:55 fewer poor people, better real wages, and additionally, a GDP higher than what we started
0:46:02 with. And if you look at it in dollars, I can assure you that the numbers are phenomenal,
0:46:08 because basically, today the dollar is below the levels we had when we took office.
0:46:16 So the reality is that in all of this, when you take my popularity levels and the government’s
0:46:21 acceptance levels, today they are above the moment we assumed office. If you know that the
0:46:29 moment of maximum popularity is when you take office. Therefore, this means that far from
0:46:36 resting on our laurels with this, we’re going for more reforms, we’re going to deepen the reforms,
0:46:41 and I tell you, we won’t stop until Argentina is the freest country in the world.
0:46:49 Furthermore, a recent work by an Argentinian economist named Juan Pablo Nicolini was presented
0:46:56 at the central bank’s monetary meetings, and he works at the Federal Reserve. And it’s interesting
0:47:02 because he shows that only on the basis of what we have done in fiscal matters, it ensures that in
0:47:10 the span of 10 years, we can double the GDP per capita, meaning that Argentina could grow at rates
0:47:20 of 7% annually, which is very much, very much, and that has strong consequences in terms of improving
0:47:29 quality of life, reducing poverty, reducing indigents. Therefore, if during the worst moment,
0:47:36 our image didn’t suffer and we stayed strong in our ideas, now that everything is working much better,
0:47:45 why should we change? On the contrary, we are ready to redouble the bet, to redouble our efforts
0:47:50 because we’ve done things that no one else has done. I will give you an example. There’s something
0:47:58 that seems trivial, but there’s what’s called the single paper ballot. Argentina used to vote with
0:48:08 huge ballots, which were very, above all, very costly and that reform, it never, let’s say it
0:48:14 wasn’t done because it always harmed the ruling party. So everyone talked about going to the single
0:48:20 paper ballot, but no one did it when they were in power. They didn’t want to implement it because
0:48:29 they preferred to commit fraud or use some kind of trickery to avoid applying that rule that makes
0:48:34 the election more competitive. Well, what’s interesting, we sent that law and it was approved.
0:48:40 What’s more, now we are finishing with the open simultaneous and mandatory primaries
0:48:47 because it was a mechanism by which politics was also stealing. We are eliminating the financing
0:48:54 of political parties. If you look, we have reduced the fiscal pressure by 15 points to the
0:49:01 Argentinians. So we are restoring freedoms with a deep set of structural and regulatory reforms.
0:49:14 That is, I think that any sensible liberal could perceive we are already delivering a wonderful
0:49:19 government. In fact, it’s the best government in the history of Argentina. If the best had
0:49:25 been that of Menem, we’ve already outpaced him. Maybe you can explain to me the metrics of poverty
0:49:31 and unemployment. As you said, unemployment went down, real unemployment went down,
0:49:39 real poverty went down. But even that aside, what have been the most painful impacts of these radical
0:49:47 reforms and how many of them are required in the short term to have a big positive impact in the
0:49:56 long term? Let’s take it step by step. In fact, we started to do things right. Therefore, we did
0:50:04 not create poverty. The poverty was an inherited poverty. The point is that what we did was to
0:50:12 reveal it. I’ll try to explain it with an example that I think clarifies what’s happening in Argentina.
0:50:19 Argentina was an economy that had a total price controls.
0:50:27 It had a fiscal deficit which was financed through money printing just for you to give you an idea.
0:50:35 In the last year, Argentina financed 13 points of the gross domestic product with money printing.
0:50:42 In other words, a real disaster. So, that situation provoked this artificially
0:50:48 demand and puts pressure on prices. The issue is that price controls are applied
0:50:56 additionally over the prices that they enter the price index with which inflation was,
0:51:03 I’m not saying they were lying about it, it was distorted. And since Argentina measures poverty
0:51:12 and indigence by income line, then what happens? That distorted the true levels of poverty, of
0:51:18 course. But that’s not the only effect. I mean, let’s say the real poverty levels were higher,
0:51:23 quite a bit higher than those shown by the previous government, which showed them at 41 percent and
0:51:31 also did so on a six-monthly basis. So, if you let’s say have a growing trend, they are actually
0:51:37 leaving you a bomb and you don’t see it because let’s say basically the indicator was measured
0:51:43 with a delayed form. But not only that, imagine that you are also given,
0:51:52 you are in the middle of an island alone and they give you one million dollars.
0:51:58 What can you do with that? You cannot do anything because you cannot buy anything.
0:52:04 It’s the same as if someone tells you that the price of classes is ten dollars,
0:52:12 but when you want to buy it, it’s not available. Actually, there’s a joke told by an Argentinian
0:52:19 professor named Juan Carlos de Pablo, who says that a man goes to a bazaar and asks for a vase.
0:52:25 Then he says to him, well, I want that vase. How much would you charge me? Then he says,
0:52:31 five thousand dollars. Oh, okay, five thousand dollars, but why five thousand dollars if across
0:52:36 the street it’s one thousand? He says, well, go buy it across the street for a thousand. Ah,
0:52:41 there’s none for a thousand. Well, then here when there’s more, it’ll also cost a thousand. In other
0:52:47 words, prices at which they are available. So, what happens? When you are faced with that situation,
0:52:54 the supermarket shelves were empty. So, what was the point of having a price at which you couldn’t
0:53:00 buy anything? You left those prices, the shelves were empty, so the statistics showed that you are
0:53:05 much better, but the reality is you couldn’t buy anything. You couldn’t make it happen. So,
0:53:11 if you left the situation as it was, people were going to starve because they couldn’t buy anything.
0:53:16 Yes, they had a certain amount of money that could supposedly buy certain goods,
0:53:21 but those goods were not available. What is the only thing you can do to save people?
0:53:27 Make the prices transparent and allow products to reappear. Well, when you make the prices
0:53:33 transparent, you also make transparent the cost of the basic food basket and the total basic basket,
0:53:38 meaning the poverty line, sorry, the indigents line and the poverty line respectively,
0:53:44 and when you do that, clearly you will see a jump in poverty. That brought poverty up to 57%.
0:53:51 Now, Argentina found its activity floor in the month of April. From that moment,
0:53:58 Argentina began to invent a cyclical recovery. Real wages have been growing every month above
0:54:05 inflation. Therefore, nominal wages are beating inflation. In fact, we are already at levels
0:54:12 similar to those we had in November. The same goes for pensions. Moreover, also let’s say,
0:54:16 there is a rebound in activity due to the recovery of the stock cycle.
0:54:22 Therefore, this is also contributing to more and better paid jobs. In fact, this is so strong
0:54:28 and evident that the wages growing the most are in the informal sector. This means that poverty
0:54:35 and extreme poverty are decreasing much faster than we imagine. But not only that, by eliminating
0:54:40 inflation, you remove the inflationary tax, but the real burden is the fiscal deficit,
0:54:47 which was 15 points of the GDP. Okay, we temporarily raised the country tax, now we lower it,
0:54:53 but we return that to the Argentinians. We gave back 15 points of the GDP.
0:55:01 Not only that, but also when you eliminate inflation, you remove the distortion of relative prices.
0:55:07 Therefore, the allocation of resources is much better. Not only that, but also with the strong
0:55:14 fiscal adjustment we made, we have reduced the country risk from 3,000 basis points to 770.
0:55:22 Today, Fitch raised Argentina’s rating to triple C. So, what do I mean? That translates into a lower
0:55:28 country risk and interest rates, and that generates an increase in investment, also generates an
0:55:34 increase in consumption. In other words, the Argentinian economy is currently in an absolutely
0:55:39 flourishing moment. And how is that sustained in the long term with structural reforms,
0:55:45 which we implement daily, deregulating the economy, and introducing new laws that free
0:55:52 Argentinians from the many oppressive measures that have burdened it over the past 100 years?
0:55:59 You’ve spoken about the caste, the corrupt political establishment. So, there’s a lot
0:56:05 of powerful people and groups that are against your ideas. What does it take
0:56:09 to fight when so much powers against you?
0:56:15 Look, we have fought against corruption like never before in Argentina.
0:56:23 In fact, when we took office, for example, there were about 900 roadblocks per year.
0:56:29 That is people who made a habit of blocking the streets. They prevented free movement.
0:56:35 And besides, they were given social plans, and they were given a lot of money.
0:56:42 If you remember, when I started by explaining the cuts, one of the things I said was that we
0:56:48 removed the middlemen of poverty, in other words, the managers of poverty, those who lived by stealing
0:56:54 from the poor. Well, that is a huge source of corruption. In fact, when we did that,
0:57:05 two days later, one of the most renowned and influential piqueteros called for a demonstration.
0:57:12 He claimed that 50,000 people would attend because he was actually expecting 100,000.
0:57:20 So he wanted to showcase it as a success. And so then, let’s say, with the decision
0:57:26 made in human capital to cut their funding, the anti-blockade protocol was also enacted,
0:57:30 where those who blocked the streets wouldn’t receive welfare benefits,
0:57:39 and those who broke the law would go to jail. All of that. And also, we were informing this through
0:57:46 transportation channels. Well, in that March, they expected to have 100,000 people there.
0:57:54 And actually, it turned out to be 3,000 people. And from that point on, they didn’t block the
0:58:00 streets anymore. We also evidently put an end to that corruption. One of the things that also
0:58:07 generated a lot of corruption was public works. Another thing that led to significant
0:58:15 actual corruption were the discretionary transfers to provinces. In general, these transfers were
0:58:22 made to the provinces with accounting as obscure as possible. So, the national government,
0:58:29 in collusion with the governors, let’s say, the money ended up being used for other things.
0:58:35 Not only that, with which we have already done many things. Furthermore, the ministry of human
0:58:43 capital is always filing complaints in court, not in the media in court. Acts of corruption,
0:58:50 like never before, in Argentine history. Not only that, but also in terms of condemning corruption.
0:58:59 That is, we have done, for example, two days ago, it was condemned. Christina Fernandez de
0:59:05 Kirchner got a sentence for corruption. I mean, due to corruption, and the next day, that is,
0:59:12 yesterday, we took away their privileged pensions. At the same time, we are, for example, we have
0:59:19 discovered that Kirchnerism used disability pensions for acts of corruption. For example,
0:59:26 there is a city that has more disability pensions than people. In other words, to give you an idea
0:59:32 of the things being done in Argentina. And also in Argentina, we have restored freedom to the
0:59:38 judiciary. We do not pressure the judiciary. And this is so true that during my government,
0:59:44 not only was Christina Fernandez de Kirchner convicted, but also the two terrorist attacks
0:59:53 carried out by Iran were condemned. So, if there is a government that is truly fighting against
1:00:00 corruption, it is us. Not only that, but also with each deregulation, it is a privilege that we
1:00:09 take away either from a politician, a preliminary company, or a power group. That is also very
1:00:18 powerful. No one in Argentina has ever fought against corruption the way we have. In fact,
1:00:22 I will move on to something that is deeply corrupt and one of my great battles.
1:00:33 The corruption of the media and social media? That is to say, I removed the official advertising.
1:00:40 That’s why you will see that even though we generate wonderful news, every week in large
1:00:46 quantity, the media speak terribly. In other words, they demand to have a monopoly on the
1:00:52 microphone. That is, they are entitled to insult, hurt, offend, and they don’t want anyone to bother
1:00:58 them. And they expect me not to even respond. That’s why a large part of journalism in Argentina
1:01:04 hates the X-network. And that’s why the liberal libertarians love the X-network, because we can
1:01:12 all say what we want. However, let’s say these supposed journalists who defend freedom of expression,
1:01:18 actually what they want is to censor the ideas they don’t like. And of course, because they are
1:01:23 leftist, because they are wokes, because they can’t stand the competition, because if they had to
1:01:30 fight face to face, hand to hand on a level playing field, when it comes to ideas, they would lose
1:01:36 because they were a failure in the economic, social, and cultural aspects. And also, we must not
1:01:42 forget that those murderers called socialists killed 150 million people, so they clearly cannot
1:01:49 fight on equal terms. Therefore, they demand that social networks have censorship and that the truth
1:01:56 cannot be told to them. Because when you tell a socialist the truth, they cry, claiming it’s
1:02:04 hate speech. No, it’s not hate speech. It’s that you are useless people who have ruined the planet.
1:02:10 They have made the planet much worse. And fortunately, today, thanks to social media,
1:02:16 especially due to the enormous and brave work of Elon Musk and the role of Twitter,
1:02:24 today X, right, allows information to flow, which makes it possible, let’s say,
1:02:34 to expose politicians and also expose the media. And that’s why journalists in Argentina are so
1:02:41 violent. Why? Because before they could, for instance, a journalist went and, for example,
1:02:46 he would go to a person and he would throw a folder at them and say, if you don’t give me X amount
1:02:53 of money, I am going to publish all of this and tarnish your reputation. And I know for a fact,
1:03:00 a case of a journalist who carried out this extortion twice to a businessman, that businessman
1:03:05 told him that he wasn’t going to pay. And evidently, the journalist did it. Obviously, they went to
1:03:12 court. There was a trial and that journalist lost both times. But that process is very slow. And in
1:03:18 the meantime, they smeared. So since the justice system takes a long time, so what is the problem?
1:03:25 The problem is that in the meantime, your life got dirtied. So why can journalists do all this?
1:03:32 Well, that’s why they dislike X. They dislike social media. They dislike the new form of communication
1:03:37 because it took away their monopoly over the microphone. And by taking away the monopoly
1:03:43 over the microphone, it removed the economic benefits of extortion. So clearly, that’s another
1:03:51 battle I’m fighting. You read a newspaper in Argentina and 85% of what you read is a lie.
1:03:58 That is to say, the fundamental characteristic of most journalists, not all, but the vast majority
1:04:05 of journalists in Argentina, with some honorable exceptions, is that they are liars, slanderers,
1:04:12 and defamers. And if the monopoly they demand were still in place, that they want to reign again,
1:04:17 I have no doubt that they would demand money in exchange for silence, because that’s what they
1:04:24 are. They are extortionists, they are thieves, they are corrupt. And then, of course, obviously,
1:04:31 when you take away a privilege from a sector, they get upset. Well, welcome to freedom.
1:04:35 So you’re not only fighting for economic freedom, you’re fighting for freedom of speech.
1:04:43 Exactly. I fight for freedom in all aspects of life. That is to say, one of the things that
1:04:52 seems most interesting to me is that when the Berlin Wall fell, it’s true that it officially fell
1:05:01 in the year 1989. But the reality is that the wall or socialism fell in the year 1961 when they had
1:05:07 to build the wall. I mean, they built it because people were leaving communist Germany for capitalist
1:05:16 Germany. They realized that those on the western side were much better off. And, of course, to
1:05:24 prevent people from leaving. They put, what a wonderful system, right? So I mean, they had to
1:05:29 trap people, they couldn’t let them go. I mean, these are such wonderful ideas that they had to
1:05:35 apply them at gunpoint. It’s quite, well, it’s no coincidence that they killed 150 million human
1:05:45 beings. So what happened then? The official fall of the wall in the year 1989 made it clear that
1:05:54 socialism had failed. In that context, the socialists, they moved the discussion of class struggle in
1:06:04 economics and took it to other areas. So for example, socialism, or what is of the 21st century,
1:06:12 or cultural Marxism or post-Marxism, whatever definition you want, is to take class struggle
1:06:20 to different aspects of life. For example, one of the aspects of life where you, let’s say,
1:06:28 have this is in gender ideology. I mean, it’s incredible because the first ones to defend equality
1:06:34 before the law were the liberals. The first to defend women’s rights were the liberals.
1:06:40 Jeremy Bentham in the year 1750 was the first to demand equality before the law for women.
1:06:47 I mean, the cause of equality, equality before the law for women and equality of rights,
1:06:51 the first ones who advocated for this were the liberals, did you know? However,
1:06:59 what does the left do? They just go on to radicalize it. And then it moves to what is called female
1:07:05 chauvinism. Female chauvinism is, let’s say, the fight against males. And then, I mean,
1:07:11 how do they do it? They do it by assigning rights. But when you assign a right, someone has to pay for
1:07:20 it. And that has consequences. And in general, let’s say, this always happens. The consequences
1:07:26 are that the results are worse than what you had before. I mean, in any state intervention,
1:07:34 the subsequent result is often worse than what you originally had. So that’s one thing. And not
1:07:40 only that, but the other side of this is the environmental agenda, which sets man against
1:07:45 nature, involving all aspects of environmentalism and everything related to climate change.
1:07:51 In other words, they can’t stand any serious discussion. Therefore, all environmental policies
1:07:57 are nothing more than an excuse to collect taxes. So that a group of parasitic bureaucrats can live
1:08:04 at the expense of others and finance sinister ideas. Where the most sinister idea of all is that
1:08:11 there is no room for everyone on planet Earth. That is, an idea that failed with Malthus at the
1:08:17 beginning of the 19th century, a murderous idea that was also applied by the Egyptians against
1:08:25 the Jews. And this is famously recorded in the book of Sheimot or Exodus. Or, for example,
1:08:31 another thing is Black Lives Matter. That is, black people against white people,
1:08:38 or indigenous people against the established communities. Or, I mean, everything related
1:08:47 to LGBT agendas. Definitely, these are some of the ways in which socialism extended the class
1:08:54 struggle into other aspects of society, creating divisions and fostering deceit with the sole
1:09:01 purpose of absorbing taxes. I mean, what was the ministry of women in Argentina doing?
1:09:07 Did it manage to reduce a single femicide? No. None at all. The number of femicides exploded
1:09:12 just the same. In fact, the most feminist president in Argentine history, Mr. Alberto
1:09:21 Fernández, used to beat his wife. That is such a strange feminist. I mean, well, so within the
1:09:27 ranks of feminists, let’s say, you will essentially find the largest number of rapists and women beat
1:09:37 us. And it’s quite interesting what they do. Their hypocrisy is truly striking. It’s not just
1:09:46 about that, though. I mean, the battle is on three fronts. You have the economic front,
1:09:54 which is free enterprise capitalism. Then we have the political level. Currently,
1:10:02 the system that the world has designed is a republican liberal democracy with checks and
1:10:10 balances. And I mean, at the cultural battle level, notice that socialism has been very
1:10:16 successful in the cultural battle. It has been very successful politically because it was able
1:10:22 to translate that political battle in winning many elections. But why is it falling apart?
1:10:30 Why? Because it produces misery. And because the economic system is a disaster, so people
1:10:36 eventually realize that it is making things worse for them. Liberal libertarians are very
1:10:44 good when it comes to economics. Yes, and those good economic results can actually lead, well,
1:10:50 to the generation of solid political processes. But what happened? The liberals neglected the
1:10:56 cultural battle. Much of the blame was placed on Fukuyama when he said this is the end of history.
1:11:02 No, it was not the end of history because the following year, in 1990, the socialists gathered
1:11:08 at the Sao Paulo Forum and, based on the ideas of Gramsci, designed a strategy to infiltrate the
1:11:15 media, culture, and education, which ended up changing the entire discourse. And they established
1:11:23 that what they said was politically correct and that any idea outside of it was to be considered
1:11:28 reactionary and had to be censored or even persecuted. And they claimed to be the ones
1:11:34 defending freedom, even though they were the ones persecuting people. It’s the same with journalists
1:11:40 who get upset with Twitter. They say they defend freedom, but can’t stand it when those who think
1:11:45 differently speak. Is that freedom? Yes, for them, but not for those who think differently. That’s
1:11:52 not freedom. That’s fascism. Then what do we say? Then we must fight on the economic front. And I
1:11:58 believe we are implementing an extremely successful economic program that is being recognized worldwide.
1:12:06 In fact, the other night, the president-elect Donald Trump indeed gave recognition for the
1:12:12 achievements we are having in Argentina and the speed at which we have done it. At the same time,
1:12:18 you have to fight the political battle because, well, soccer matches are not won by shouting from
1:12:24 the stands. They are won by playing on the field. But that alone is not enough because you have to,
1:12:32 let’s say, you need to convey to society the values of capitalism, the free market,
1:12:38 what liberalism is, the value of freedom, right? And when you succeed in that,
1:12:45 then we will indeed be able to advance steadily. If you don’t fight the cultural battle,
1:12:51 what happened in Chile will happen to you. They had economic success. It was, let’s say,
1:12:58 sustained over time. But at some point it collapsed. Why did it collapse? Because they hadn’t fought the
1:13:05 cultural battle. Then socialism, little by little, took control of institutions in education and the
1:13:12 media. So they took over the media and culture. And on that basis, they attacked and broke up the
1:13:18 system. And then they found themselves with increasing doses of socialism. And the only thing
1:13:25 socialism generates is poverty. Therefore, what you must keep in mind is that you have to fight
1:13:33 the battles on all fronts. And if you don’t keep that in mind, I can tell you are headed towards
1:13:39 collapse. Like you said, in this fight against corruption, you are challenging some very powerful
1:13:49 people, a powerful establishment. Are you ever afraid for your life, potential assassinations?
1:13:56 No. Tell me, what good is it to live life? I mean, in slavery?
1:14:08 Look, there is a song by a Spanish singer called Nino Bravo. Just to be clear, he has already left
1:14:18 this earth so we can say he has passed on to the beyond. The song is called Libre. And the song,
1:14:27 it tells the story of Peter Fetcher, an 18-year-old boy who, when the separation was made.
1:14:36 And I mean, the construction of the Berlin Wall begins. His family ends up on the western side
1:14:44 and he accidentally ends up on the eastern side. And for a whole year, he plans his escape
1:14:51 to the western side, right? And in that context, when he tries to escape, he gets murdered.
1:14:58 So really, what is the point of life if it’s not in freedom, right?
1:15:03 I mean, what is the point of living without fighting for your values?
1:15:09 If I am willing to give my life for my values, then what is the point of living without freedom?
1:15:13 Look, can I tell you something interesting that happened to me here in the United States?
1:15:27 I, let’s say, back in the year, 1998, I came to the United States to take a series of courses
1:15:35 to improve my English, which I never use in formal terms because as president, as you can imagine,
1:15:42 if I make a mistake, I can create a serious situation. Fortunately, I have an interpreter who
1:15:48 is a superstar. And if I make a mistake even in Spanish, he corrects me in the version of the
1:15:58 other language. And so back then, in that year, I went to San Francisco and I visited Alcatraz.
1:16:10 You’re young, but I mean, the visit was an audio tour. You got a walkman and you would
1:16:16 choose the different tracks and listen to the story. The most interesting thing is that the
1:16:24 Alcatraz store ended in the recreation yard where the basketball court, exercise areas,
1:16:30 and all recreational facilities were located. So anyone would have thought that this was the best
1:16:38 part of Alcatraz. And yet, what they said in the guide was that that was the hardest part for the
1:16:46 inmates. Why? Because I mean, that recreation area in particular is built in front of the
1:16:54 San Francisco Bay. So the inmates could all see how San Francisco continued to build up and evolve
1:17:00 and develop every day. While they were locked up in there, they couldn’t take part in that.
1:17:07 They were confined in that prison. And that made them fully aware of the value of freedom.
1:17:18 So in my experience for me, the fight for freedom is relentless, okay? I mean, my greatest hero in
1:17:26 all of human history is Moses. The feet of Moses is like one person alone with his brother, Aaron,
1:17:36 both confronting the combined forces of the United States, China, and Russia together.
1:17:40 And it was Moses who said to Ramses, “Let my people go.”
1:17:49 Well, Ramses resisted, and the forces of heaven ran him over. But what I mean is,
1:17:57 I don’t see any other possible way to live other than with freedom. And I would always
1:18:04 fight for full freedom. And I would be at the forefront of this cause. I mean, it’s a cause that
1:18:10 I’m going to die with my boots on. I mean, I’m not going to make do with living
1:18:16 any other way other than with freedom. I will fight everything I’m going to fight as much as it takes.
1:18:23 At least that’s the way I feel. So what good is it to be alive if you’re confined?
1:18:31 What good is it to be alive if you’re not free? It’s no good. What good was it for Peter Fetcher
1:18:35 to be alive in Communist Germany?
1:18:42 Well, at least he had a moment of happiness while he tried to escape.
1:18:50 Another guy who fights for freedom, freedom of speech in his cases, your new friend, Elon Musk,
1:18:56 what do you admire and what have you learned from your interactions with Elon?
1:19:10 I have a huge admiration for Elon Musk. He is an absolutely unconventional person.
1:19:16 He’s a great fighter for the ideas of freedom, what he has done on Twitter,
1:19:28 now known as X and how he is helping the world nowadays to wake up once and for all and become
1:19:36 aware of the socialist virus, the woke virus, that in itself makes him a hero in the history of
1:19:46 humanity. But it’s not just that. One of the things that happened to me is that when I went
1:19:53 to first talk to him, I thought I was going to meet a successful businessman and that I would
1:19:59 have a typical successful businessman conversation who understands business and that some of his
1:20:06 businesses, some of his business, slightly more exotic. But that’s the kind of talk you would
1:20:13 expect to have. And business people are truly admirable, right? Because they are true benefactors
1:20:24 of society. But they’re usually very much focused on their own business. And one of the things that
1:20:35 really, really shocked me when I met Elon Musk, we had scheduled a meeting for no more than 50
1:20:43 minutes. The first time we were in the meeting for a little over 45 minutes because he was about to
1:20:49 miss his flight. So obviously, if someone as important as him doesn’t fly as planned,
1:20:56 it has to be rescheduled. And he loses a lot of hours. Imagine every minute is very valuable.
1:21:07 And one of the things that happened was that basically, he brought up the topic of demography.
1:21:15 And we started discussing demographics and growth. I never imagined that I would end up discussing
1:21:24 demographics and growth with him. And another very fun thing was that something funny he said to me
1:21:32 was that since we shared our vision regarding demographic issues and the need to populate
1:21:36 the planet, he asked me, “Now, what about you? When are you going to move in that direction?”
1:21:41 And I said, “Oh, look, I have five children.” And he said, “Well, the four-legged ones don’t count.”
1:21:52 That was the first meeting I had with Elon Musk. The second meeting was
1:22:01 when here at the universities, we started seeing anti-Semitic demonstrations where basically
1:22:10 Palestinian flags were displayed and Jews were harassed and persecuted. And at that moment,
1:22:17 when we had that second meeting, he showed himself to be very deeply involved with that
1:22:24 and brought up the issue of the cultural battle. So, I mean, it’s not quite conventional,
1:22:34 even in the political field. During our last talk, which lasted for about two and a half hours,
1:22:41 right? One of the things we talked about was freedom and what was at stake for the United
1:22:55 States in this election. Therefore, he is a person. Honestly, I can say he is well above
1:23:05 average. I mean, a person of unconventional intelligence, right? And also, he is very charming.
1:23:12 So, I mean, again, I have a great admiration for him. And I really interact very closely with him.
1:23:19 He is very interested in what our ministry of deregulation is doing, which seeks to remove
1:23:25 regulations. But at the same time, he works with another person who is also interested in the
1:23:35 chainsaw approach. And so, I’m very pleased because they are going to try and replicate
1:23:42 the model we are implementing in Argentina. And also, Donald Trump himself is very enthusiastic
1:23:48 about this. So, and anything in the way of reducing regulations and cutting public spending
1:23:54 and taking government out of the equation means more freedom for the people. So, I’m very pleased
1:24:01 with what’s going on. And with Trump’s victory, because the United States will be better off,
1:24:06 Argentina is going to be better too. And the whole world is going to be better off.
1:24:10 Today, the world is a much better place than it was just a few days ago.
1:24:18 Like you said, Elon and Vivek Ramoswami are heading the DOGE, Department of Government Efficiency.
1:24:24 So, from your experience this year as President of Argentina and every chainsaw economic policies
1:24:30 that you’ve implemented, what advice would you give to Elon and Vivek about how to do it in the
1:24:36 United States? Just cut to the chase. Cut to the chase. Simple as that. I’ll tell you a story and
1:24:45 you’re going to love it. Currently in Argentina, due to the political balance we’ve achieved,
1:24:52 we have had certain powers delegated from Congress to the Executive Branch,
1:24:55 and therefore we can resolve it by decree.
1:25:04 That the Regulation Minister, Federico Storsenegger, in his ministry, shows a counter that displays
1:25:12 in front of everyone there. He displays the number of days, all right? During which the
1:25:20 delegated powers will continue to be valid. Therefore, he has a whole deregulation division,
1:25:26 also a public spending cut division, and government structure reduction division,
1:25:34 and he also has an elite corps that’s cleaning up all of the laws that hinder the economic system
1:25:41 and progress. And every day, he removes between one and five economic restrictions.
1:25:47 So my advice would be for them to go all the way to push it to the very limit
1:25:55 and do not give up, do not let down their guard. Furthermore, that agenda does not have political
1:26:02 purpose because at the end of the day, you are removing privileges. Of course, there will be
1:26:06 people complaining, but those are people. These are people who are losing privileges,
1:26:11 so they will have to explain to society why they are keeping those privileges,
1:26:16 and that is quite uncomfortable. You’ve spoken with Donald Trump. Allegedly,
1:26:21 he called you his favorite president. What did you discuss? And maybe again,
1:26:26 what do you admire about President Trump and what do you learn from him?
1:26:32 There are several things that I admire about President Trump.
1:26:42 The first is that he, probably, I think he’s provided ample proof of this in his first presidency.
1:26:49 He understands the nature of the cultural battle. He has openly confronted socialism.
1:26:55 His speeches openly target socialism. He perfectly understands the woke virus,
1:27:06 and that that is, you know, of great value because it means understanding what it’s all about.
1:27:12 Another thing I truly admire about him is his courage. In fact,
1:27:19 thankfully, thank goodness he didn’t get assassinated or killed.
1:27:23 But it was by a small chance occurrence that could have killed him,
1:27:25 just because he moved at the right moment.
1:27:37 And yet that didn’t intimidate him, and he went on. And in fact, during his first campaign,
1:27:42 and in this one as well, in the second one and third one,
1:27:50 they criticized him, insulted him, offended him, said awful things about him,
1:27:58 made up all sorts of horrible stories about him. In that respect, I can say I deeply relate because
1:28:06 probably no one in our history has had such a negative campaign from all the media like
1:28:13 they did to me. But let’s say they were quite similar. This is why it’s so interesting. And
1:28:19 I was so deeply moved when last night I also got to meet Sylvester Stallone, you know?
1:28:28 Because Sylvester Stallone talks about, well, how important is that no matter how hard they
1:28:34 hit you and keep on hitting you all the time, despite all that you keep going on and on and on.
1:28:46 What I’m trying to say is that many of the, many, so many of Sylvester Stallone’s approaches
1:28:52 are truly inspirational, don’t you think? So imagine I’m about to give the speech and I see
1:29:00 Sylvester Stallone and Sylvester Stallone knows me. It was truly insane. I had to pinch myself.
1:29:06 I mean, this can’t be true. And besides, well, the people were wonderful with me last night.
1:29:13 They’ve been wonderful today. I’ve taken hundreds of selfies. I mean, it’s truly been,
1:29:21 I would say it’s been my break, let me say, after almost a year in office and having to face
1:29:29 all sorts of media torture because the journalists who have vested interests and are corrupt
1:29:34 are professional torturers. Yes, because they invade your personal life,
1:29:39 your family, and your privacy. Let me tell you something to show you the kind of garbage the
1:29:44 media in Argentina can do. They sent three drones to spy on me at my presidential residence.
1:29:51 To spy on me. Do you think that’s right? No. Exactly. But that kind of thing happens in
1:29:57 Argentina, not to mention the many lies and horrible things they say. I, for instance,
1:30:05 remember that time when my father was hospitalized. My father is a man of a really strong character who
1:30:13 has had two heart surgeries. All right. And one day, a journalist was saying all sorts of lies
1:30:21 about my father. My father was hospitalized and, well, and he almost died of a heart attack.
1:30:28 So that kind of thing is what journalism and the press do in Argentina. So they start to attack
1:30:34 your private life, your mother, your father, your sister, even my dogs that I absolutely adore.
1:30:39 They are the most wonderful beings in the universe. They even target my four-legged children.
1:30:48 So imagine that I’ve been in office for nearly a year, a year as president. And since they can’t
1:30:56 criticize my management, except by lying and distorting the numbers. They meddle with all these
1:31:03 things, things they have been doing all the time since the year 2021, when I officially entered
1:31:13 politics. So, and I’ve seen what they’ve done to Trump. So that also makes me relate a lot to him
1:31:20 because he’s a true warrior. He’s truly, he’s a Viking. He’s a Viking. He’s literally a Viking.
1:31:30 I mean, he is someone I admire for how he has kept fighting in the face of adversity,
1:31:36 even against all odds. And still, he managed to win. Amazing.
1:31:45 And well, and that’s why I can relate that much. And I’ve also seen how he’s been
1:31:53 unfairly criticized, like when he was accused of protectionism or when he wanted to discuss some
1:31:59 matters within the context of public debate regarding the design of monetary policy as regards to
1:32:07 Fed. And basically, they have accused him of things. I mean, isn’t he entitled to give an opinion
1:32:13 as a president? I mean, any citizen could give their opinion even more so a president.
1:32:18 Why is it important to you that Argentina has a close relationship with the United States?
1:32:23 Well, to us, that is truly important, okay?
1:32:30 You know, because we’ve decided to be geopolitical allies of the United States
1:32:39 ever since our campaign, that our allies, we have decided that our allies will be the United
1:32:46 States and Israel, because they basically represent the ideas of the Western world. They
1:32:53 represent the free world. That is to say what we would call today, let’s say a liberal democracy,
1:33:01 okay? By confronting the autocrats. And in that sense, that is the geopolitical alignment.
1:33:08 Moreover, in our campaign, we were very, very clear on three main points. One, the economic pillar.
1:33:14 We talked about cutting public spending, and I would make my appearances with a chainsaw.
1:33:20 We talked about economic freedom, deregulation, that is, and I talked about a competition of
1:33:25 currencies. And people, you know, obviously were interested in the dollar. So it was obvious
1:33:31 that the economic policy was clear, all right? And not only was it clear, but we are also fulfilling
1:33:38 it. That is the first point. Second was our policy on security. The idea being to fight crime,
1:33:48 I mean, relentlessly as well as security. No mercy, right? And in fact, in Argentina,
1:33:55 there are no more roadblocks, which they said were impossible to end. Not only that, we have
1:34:00 strengthened the security forces and also our armed forces, and we are waging a tough battle against
1:34:06 drug trafficking and narco-terrorism. Therefore, we are also strongly fulfilling that. Notice that
1:34:12 these two points, which were the main concerns, they were the biggest concerns of Argentinians
1:34:18 when we took office are now in fifth and sixth place. Today, the problem for Argentinians is
1:34:25 corruption, whether there is unemployment, if there is poverty, but they don’t mention inflation and
1:34:31 insecurity anymore. And besides, a third point that I made clear was that I would align with the
1:34:39 United States and Israel internationally. And, you know, at my campaign rallies, there would be
1:34:47 groups that would come along with flags of Israel, so it’s clear that our international policy approach
1:34:55 was always very clear. And this is something I state during my speeches when I talk about the
1:35:03 values of the West and the civilization of the West. In fact, yesterday, and even more so today,
1:35:12 during my speeches, I talked about how the different Greek groups or tribes go together to confront
1:35:21 the Persians. That is to say, it seemed that from that time, 500 years before Christ until today,
1:35:34 that struggle continues, right? But well, so, of course, we’re all in. We are betting on the
1:35:42 United States becoming, once again, a leader in the West. We needed someone to come back
1:35:54 to make America great again. And as part of that process, being a commercial ally is also a great
1:36:03 idea. So we would really like to move forward and deepen our trade ties and our investment ties,
1:36:09 you know? And, well, we would also like to be part of the NATO as well.
1:36:13 Do you think it’s still possible? One of the radical ideas you had as you were running for
1:36:21 president was to dollarize the Argentine economy. Do you think that’s still a good idea? Are you
1:36:29 still thinking about that? Let’s see. Let’s break it down. Let’s say I, if you review all my statements,
1:36:37 I talk about currency competition. I’m not strictly talking about dollarization. I’m talking about
1:36:44 currency competition and eliminating the central bank. If people later decide to embrace the dollar,
1:36:50 that is their choice. Ultimately, in the model I propose, what happens is the formation of a
1:36:58 currency basket tailored to the needs of individuals. But I won’t avoid the discussion. Today,
1:37:03 there is currency competition. If, for instance, today in Argentina, you want to make transactions
1:37:08 in any currency, you can do it, and it’s allowed. Today, there is currency competition.
1:37:14 The other thing we talk about is the concept of, let’s suppose we were discussing dollarization,
1:37:21 we talk about endogenous dollarization. The first point is that you need to clean up the
1:37:27 central bank. We had to deal with the issue of the C-I-R-A, that is the central bank’s commercial
1:37:32 debt, which was $50 billion. We still have to resolve the dividend problem of $10 billion.
1:37:38 And in the meantime, we did a write-off and cleaned up the central bank’s balance sheet
1:37:43 by $45 billion. So you can’t just close the central bank if it is bankrupt,
1:37:48 because you need to redeem the whole central bank debt, which is about the issuing of money
1:37:54 and the interest-bearing liabilities. So once we’ve finished with the interest-bearing liabilities,
1:38:00 it’ll leave us with the monetary base. Therefore, today we have a regime where the amount of money
1:38:07 is fixed, the monetary base is not growing, and as demand for money increases, since people can use
1:38:13 dollars, they don’t need to go and sell the dollars and make the peso appreciate, but they can do
1:38:20 transactions in dollars. So as the economy grows, you will have a greater share of dollars
1:38:26 relative to pesos. And at some point, the amount of pesos compared to the dollars will be
1:38:34 so huge, relatively, that closing down the central bank will be done easily, which means this is
1:38:41 working. Of course, if you were to give me the money right now, I would go ahead and dollarize.
1:38:48 I’d have no problem with that. For example, I did have a proposal for this, and this could have
1:38:55 worked, because the bonds, because the largest creditor of the Argentine Treasury is the central
1:39:02 bank, but central bank bonds were trading at 20 cents. If I had sold those bonds at 20 cents and
1:39:11 nowadays, they are trading between 60 and 70, with the whole bunch of Neanderthals that are the
1:39:21 opposition, who besides being ignorant in economics also have bad intentions, I would be in jail today.
1:39:29 Let me ask you a very important, difficult question. I’m a huge fan, have been my whole life,
1:39:35 of Diego Maradona and Messi. So who to use the greatest football player of all time?
1:39:38 The way I see it, I have seen Maradona play, all right?
1:39:47 I saw Maradona play in the past, I used to watch him, and I saw him during his last year at Argentino
1:39:57 Juniors, before Boca Juniors in the year 1980, and I saw him in ’81. Playing for Boca, I saw him play
1:40:08 in the youth selection in Japan in 1979. I truly have immensely enjoyed the talent of Maradona,
1:40:15 but without a doubt, the best soccer player of all time, not just from Argentina of all time,
1:40:24 even better than Pele is Messi, of course. There is an article which is quite old already now,
1:40:34 titled “Messy is Impossible”, and it looks at all of the positions a soccer player plays in.
1:40:41 That is, all positions a soccer player can play in from midfield forward, okay?
1:40:51 And the most incredible thing is that Messi is the best in each of those positions.
1:40:59 You can be the best in one or two positions. You see, Cristiano Ronaldo, for example,
1:41:06 was very good in two areas of the game, so much so that he was almost like Messi,
1:41:13 but he didn’t take part in the rest. However, Messi is the best one in all respects,
1:41:24 but at that time, of course, nowadays, you know, he is an older player, right? And I’m not sure
1:41:31 whether he can still keep that performance on all fronts, but honestly, I have never in my life
1:41:38 seen a player like Messi. I have never seen no one like him, for real. If you look at the number of
1:41:45 goals he scored, I correct that, considering the goal average in the days of Pele, compared to Messi’s
1:41:52 golden era and his career now, the number of equivalent goals is much greater than that of Pele,
1:41:59 therefore, without a doubt, Messi is the greatest soccer player of all time. Of all time, no one
1:42:08 compares to him. But it’s not just the numbers or the World Cup win. It’s the moments of genius
1:42:16 on the field. Messi is unlike any other in that way. Messi does things that seem technically
1:42:22 impossible. They seem physically impossible. The moves he makes don’t respect human logic. It’s
1:42:30 like watching Usain Bolt run. It doesn’t feel possible. He moves in a way that doesn’t respect
1:42:38 human logic. Am I right? Did you watch the 1986 World Cup with Maradona with the hand of God,
1:42:44 with the game against England? What was that like? Oh, yes. I do remember that very well.
1:42:55 We watched it in the home of my godfather and saw how he did his gambit and dodged the team,
1:43:01 the England team, that was truly, it was absolutely,
1:43:11 absolutely indescribable. There’s no way to put it into words. It’s as if I asked you to describe
1:43:20 for me the love you have for your partner. You can’t do that, right? I mean, it’s something wonderful.
1:43:27 You can’t describe it. You cannot put it into words. There are things where words,
1:43:37 I mean, you know, just seem to fail. Am I right? I really think that there are times when humans,
1:43:47 or some humans, not all of them actually, some humans have the privilege
1:43:55 of being able to vibrate closer to God. Some Puccini Arias, for example, when you listen to them,
1:44:04 when you listen to the famous Arya from La Rondine or the famous Arya from Gianni Shici,
1:44:10 I mean, you get the feeling that he was getting sad dictated by God. How can you put that into
1:44:16 words? You can’t. There’s no way you do that. I mean, those moments where we humans are
1:44:23 that we have the privilege, I say it as human beings, right? Because, I mean, I’m speaking from
1:44:33 that perspective, okay? I say this only as an admirer. Some human beings have the ability to
1:44:42 vibrate so close to God that you can’t describe it. You can only enjoy it. This is why in Judaism,
1:44:51 they don’t use the name of God, of the Creator, because how could you put in words something
1:45:00 like that? And I believe those are times when us humans connect closer to the Creator and create
1:45:06 things, unique things. You cannot describe them. There are no words to describe that. The only thing
1:45:15 you can do is enjoy it and be thankful that you can witness it. You’re a great footballer yourself
1:45:21 in your youth. You are a goalkeeper. Many people would say that’s the toughest and the most important
1:45:26 position in football. Maybe you could speak about that experience and in general, what’s harder,
1:45:36 being a goalkeeper or a president? Lovely question. Well, indeed, I used to be a goalkeeper,
1:45:46 but I’m not so sure about whether I was any good. But, you know, the experience of having been a
1:45:55 goalkeeper is very valuable. First, the goalkeeper is the only player that can use their hands
1:45:59 in a certain sector of the pitch in the area.
1:46:08 The other thing is that he’s also the only player who dresses differently, right?
1:46:14 Moreover, their training is a solitary one.
1:46:26 And the most important, I mean, it is the very climax, the goal, right?
1:46:32 When the goal is called by their team, everyone is celebrating on the other side and the goalkeeper
1:46:43 is on his own. And at the same time, he is the one who suffers the most when a goal is scored
1:46:49 because he gets the direct impact. In fact, when the goalkeeper makes a mistake, it’s an own goal.
1:46:55 Imagine a teammate scores a wonderful goal like the one Maradona did.
1:47:01 It’s marvelous. And that’s just one goal. And imagine the goalkeeper picks up the ball and then
1:47:07 if they bring it into the area wrongly, it’s like two goals. It’s a complete lack of proportion.
1:47:19 So therefore, and this, in my opinion, makes goalkeepers have a very strong temperament, right?
1:47:28 They are used to being alone and power is precisely that because when you make decisions,
1:47:38 you are on your own. And not just that, but also when you have a responsibility,
1:47:44 like that of a president, when you make a decision, it has an impact on millions of people.
1:47:52 So just like goalkeepers, if you make a mistake and score an own goal, and in this context,
1:48:01 it’s negative consequences for millions of people. Therefore, that has been part of the
1:48:07 University of Life that has given me the tools to be president today, that is my training in
1:48:14 economics, my training in liberalism, having been a goalkeeper, and also having had a very tough
1:48:22 childhood. How hard is it? What’s been the personal toll of carrying the hope of a nation on your
1:48:34 shoulders? Well, you know, being defamed, insulted, and attacked every single day. But again,
1:48:42 there’s no point in life. If it’s not with freedom, so like Sylvester Stallone once said,
1:48:47 “The secret to life is to carry on in spite of the blows you get, the punches you take.”
1:48:57 And fortunately, we have been able to carry on in spite of the blows, both coming at us from
1:49:02 in front and from behind our backs, because it had been more honest if we had been attacked directly.
1:49:12 But well, you know, in Argentina, politics and the mass media, they do love to attack
1:49:18 behind your back. What role has God played in your life? And who is God?
1:49:29 Well, faith, I’d say, has been a very fundamental element, you know?
1:49:40 And especially in recent times, during which I’ve become actively involved,
1:49:47 particularly in the teachings of Judaism and in the study of the Torah.
1:49:59 This has given me a huge, let’s say, a huge background to face the many adversities which
1:50:05 I’ve encountered and had to overcome in the last few years. And as to who God is,
1:50:13 He’s the Creator, the Maker, I call Him the One. What is a better guide for humanity? The invisible
1:50:22 hand of the market or the hand of God? They’re perfectly in sync. Well, enough. Again, going
1:50:29 back to your youth, you’re a lead singer in a rock band. Who is the greatest rock star of all time?
1:50:38 Okay. Well, the way I see it, the most amazing rock singer in history of mankind was definitely
1:50:48 Elvis Presley. And my favorite band is the Rolling Stones. So I also greatly admire Mick Jagger,
1:50:54 you know? And I still have this dream of getting to meet him in person.
1:50:58 How fun would it be to play together with the Stones?
1:51:03 That would be a big, big dream.
1:51:10 Don’t get my hopes up because I set goals and then I go and achieve them.
1:51:17 Well, I’m close friends with a band that opens for the Stones. So I would love to see this happen.
1:51:23 Oh, well, that would be great. Or we could also watch the whole concert from the stage.
1:51:30 I mean, I can’t keep ruining the Rolling Stones’ music. I already had a tribute band and did quite
1:51:37 a lot of damage to the music. How much of your rock star roots define your approach to politics to life?
1:51:42 Do you see yourself as a kind of showman in part? Of course.
1:51:51 Absolutely. My idea is that when you attend, when you attend one of our events,
1:51:58 it feels like going to a Rolling Stones concert. In fact, in one of my most recent
1:52:04 performances at Luna Park, I even had the pleasure of singing in front of 10,000 people.
1:52:12 It’s on YouTube. No, sorry. Not on YouTube. It’s on my Instagram feed.
1:52:20 At that event, I sang a song called Panic Show. And the song starts by saying, “Hi, everybody.
1:52:28 I am the lion.” Your intensity and passion have earned you the nickname El Loco, the madman.
1:52:35 Do you think some madness is necessary to challenge the powerful establishment?
1:52:40 Well, maybe it’s a matter of perspective, right? It could be the other way around.
1:52:46 That everyone else is crazy by living in a way contrary to the ideas of freedom.
1:52:52 And so maybe the same person who wants to fix that is then considered a madman.
1:53:00 Anyway, the nickname doesn’t bother me at all. In fact, I even enjoy it because I’ve been
1:53:06 called like that since I was 10 years old. So it’s not something that particularly bothers me,
1:53:16 you know, because it’s a nickname that, well, it has been used for many years. But actually,
1:53:22 if I present to you the case of San Martín, when he said he was going to cross the Andes to
1:53:29 liberate not only Argentina, not only our country, but also Chile and Peru, and people called him
1:53:37 crazy, imagine if you had tried and spoken with, I don’t know. With Michelangelo, you would have
1:53:45 called him crazy too. Or if you had talked to, I don’t know, hundreds of people who have changed
1:53:50 the world, surely they would have thought that Einstein was crazy and so on, the list would
1:53:59 be infinite. So what is the difference between a madman and a genius success?
1:54:09 Let me ask you about the market. It’s so interesting from your view of the world,
1:54:14 how powerful the market is at figuring out what’s best for society. Why do you think
1:54:18 the market works so well as a guide for humanity?
1:54:28 One must first understand what the market is. Simply put, the market is a process of
1:54:33 voluntary exchange where individuals cooperate through the transfer of property rights,
1:54:44 in which private property is upheld. This is the system that drives the allocation of resources
1:54:50 in essence. Socialism, and this is what Mises condemns in his book Socialism,
1:55:00 shows is that without private property, prices cease to exist and therefore resources are diverted.
1:55:04 Why don’t you think it’s the same to make a road of asphalt or gold? Why not make it of gold?
1:55:10 Because you have an understanding of economic calculation, you have an idea of prices in your
1:55:18 mind. So in this context, if there is no private property, there are no prices and as a result,
1:55:27 the free market capitalism is the best mechanism ever developed by humankind
1:55:35 for resource allocation. This also implies that markets must be free, free from state intervention,
1:55:44 because when the state intervenes, it creates interference. And markets need to allow free
1:55:50 entry and exit, what we call competition. However, it’s better to understand competition.
1:55:56 In the sense described by Israel Kirchner, one of the foremost figures of the Austrian school,
1:56:02 or in the neoclassical framework, as William Baumel understood it, which was the concept of free
1:56:10 entry and exit in so-called contestable markets. And also, let’s talk about what pertains to the
1:56:16 division of labor and social cooperation. You know, the most wonderful thing about capitalism
1:56:23 is that you can only be successful by serving others with better quality goods at a better price.
1:56:29 If you are successful in the free market capitalism, you are a hero. You are a social
1:56:37 benefactor. You are a prosperity machine. So the better you do, you know, the better you do,
1:56:43 the better it is for society. This is very important. I remember when I had my first
1:56:51 meeting with Elon Musk, and this made me admire him greatly. And this is something my sister
1:56:58 commented on too. You know, Elon Musk told me something he does every day. He wakes up every
1:57:08 morning thinking about what problem he could fix for humanity. That’s amazing. Of course,
1:57:18 what is the counterpart being successful? Therefore, in that sense, and moreover, in my view,
1:57:25 on how the system works, on how the market works, market failures do not exist.
1:57:32 That is to say, that is a problem. All right? A problem for neoclassical economies
1:57:42 because of the mathematical tools they’ve used to develop economic analysis. But actually,
1:57:49 it’s not a real issue in everyday life. It’s a problem in the minds of economists.
1:57:55 In fact, my latest book called Capitalism, Socialism, and the Neoclassical Trap deals precisely
1:58:00 with this issue. Yeah, you’ve outlined these ideas in capitalism, socialism, and then neoclassical
1:58:07 trap. So the trap is that there’s no such thing as a middle ground. It’s either capitalism,
1:58:14 socialism, and every middle ground ends up in a state of socialism. Well, actually, that is what
1:58:22 Mises said, that there were, he said that there are only two systems, free enterprise capitalism
1:58:30 and socialism. And he also pointed out, and this is proven in Hayek’s book, The Road to Serfdom,
1:58:35 that any middle ground solution is unstable in terms of capitalism,
1:58:41 meaning it tends toward socialism. So when you implement an intervention, it causes government
1:58:46 failure, which then triggers further intervention, setting up a trap that results in more and more
1:58:52 intervention. And in this context, the neoclassicals, with their market failure theory, are in fact
1:58:58 dealing with problems that are fundamentally mathematical, rather than making the world a
1:59:03 better place, they have, if you will, been instrumental in increasing the levels of
1:59:14 intervention. Let me tell you something. Well, you know, I have an economist as chairman of the
1:59:24 president’s advisory council. Dr. Demian Radle, who studied here at Harvard University and completed
1:59:32 his PhD, was mentored by Kenneth Rogoff, the American economist. And Rogoff has said that
1:59:42 Dr. Radle was his best student. Nowadays, we’re actually working with Dr. Radle specifically on
1:59:57 all these issues that arise from, you know, the interventions proposed by the mainstream,
2:00:05 such as the so-called correction of market failures. And a few days ago, he conducted a survey
2:00:18 of search algorithms and policy recommendations. And that resulted in a map painted from red to
2:00:28 blue. And, well, the redder it was, the more it was linked to socialism. There was an intermediate
2:00:35 thing that was yellow and blue was free market ideas. And one of the things he discovered
2:00:48 as part of that graph or chart was that the largest, the largest number of policy recommendations
2:00:57 scandalously are actually left leaning. So that is the empirical evidence of what I pointed out
2:01:05 in the book, capitalism, socialism, and the neoclassical trap. You mentioned your four-legged
2:01:13 children. What have you learned about life from your dogs? Well, from my four-legged children,
2:01:26 I have learned unconditional love. In fact, well, my name in Hebrew means loyal friend,
2:01:36 faithful friend. And on the Chinese horoscope, I am dog. And if there’s one thing that defines me
2:01:44 is loyalty being decent and those virtues, you know, you can find them in those wonderful
2:01:53 beings that dogs are who love unconditionally. In fact, they are superior beings, right?
2:02:04 Spiritually speaking, in my case, because you know, I don’t forget or forgive those
2:02:11 who have harmed me. That is to say, all those who have insulted defame me and criticize me,
2:02:19 I remember each one of them. But I don’t have the greatness needed to forgive them.
2:02:25 On the topic of loyalty in politics, I’m sure there’s been a lot of people,
2:02:32 some people who have betrayed you. Does that hurt your heart?
2:02:46 It depends. Because you sometimes think that you can expect some people to be loyal,
2:02:55 and if they betray you, of course, that hurts. But some people you actually don’t expect anything
2:03:02 from them. So if there’s betrayal, I mean, you won’t be annoyed or feel bad because
2:03:09 you owe it to someone who didn’t share your values. But politics does have that, you know?
2:03:18 Sometimes, many of the people you may come across don’t have the values you advocate for,
2:03:25 but it’s cost-benefit. You need to let the ship sail on, right? Or would you rather let it sink?
2:03:33 That’s not my case. I fight until the end. There are traitors, but that’s part of politics.
2:03:43 And that’s not my line. But of course, they do exist. There are a lot of people who admire your
2:03:48 revolutionary spirit. What advice would you give them? Maybe young people
2:03:55 on how to live a life like yours and have an impact on the world like you have begun to do.
2:04:00 I didn’t do this thinking about having an impact on the world.
2:04:10 I have defined what makes me happy and I live according to that. I live consistently by that.
2:04:21 And most importantly, I would say, never give up. Moreover,
2:04:35 and above all, never be half-hearted. I would rather cry because I failed,
2:04:44 rather than not crying because I never tried. I mean, I’m a perfectionist, so when I do air,
2:04:54 of course, I have a bad time. But still, I prefer to go and get things done. If it goes
2:05:02 wrong, it’s part of life. But I will never, never have to regret not having done what I
2:05:09 thought needed to be done at that moment. All right? What gives you hope about the future of
2:05:17 Argentina and the future of humanity? Well, the fact that thanks to social media
2:05:25 and to the Holtec revolution going on, every day more and more people are becoming aware
2:05:38 of how important freedom is to live, to live in peace and prosperity. And I believe even though
2:05:50 bureaucrats and the elites fight untiringly to enslave us, a wave of freedom has been unleashed,
2:05:58 which if we do wage the fight, will have a much better world.
2:06:06 What is your famous words of Viva la Libertad? How did that come about and what does it mean to you?
2:06:15 Long live freedom, damn it. You know, that first started while I was giving my book presentations
2:06:24 at the end of my presentation, I would say Viva la Libertad Carajo. And that really stuck with
2:06:31 me since then. Without thinking about it throughout my life, it was going to continue being present.
2:06:40 In fact, today my presentations, all of my speeches end with “May God bless the Argentinians.
2:06:49 May the forces of heaven be with us and Viva la Libertad Carajo.” The first phrase reflects
2:06:59 my faith in God fervently and that I’m deeply thankful to the Creator
2:07:07 for the wonderful things He has bestowed upon me daily. The second one has to do with a quote from
2:07:14 the book of Maccabees 319, which says that victory in battle doesn’t depend on the size of the army,
2:07:22 but on the forces of heaven. This has to do with the victory of the Jewish people, the Maccabees,
2:07:30 against the Greeks, and how they recover the temple. And the last one, well, is my war cry.
2:07:38 Well, there’s no better way to end it. Thank you for being a warrior for freedom. And thank you
2:07:43 for talking today. Thank you very much indeed for your interview. And thank you for being so well
2:07:50 educated, because very often interviewers are not like that. And you did have windows to play foul,
2:07:54 and you didn’t. And I recognize that. And I thank you for that. Thank you.
2:08:00 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Javier Malay. To support this podcast,
2:08:05 please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you some words from George
2:08:15 Orwell. In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. Thank you for listening,
2:08:27 and hope to see you next time.
2:08:34 [Music]