#482 – Pavel Durov: Telegram, Freedom, Censorship, Money, Power & Human Nature

0:00:05 The following is a conversation with Pavel Durov, founder and CEO of Telegram,
0:00:12 a messaging platform actively used by over 1 billion people. Pavel has spent his life
0:00:17 fighting for freedom of speech, building tools that protect human communication
0:00:23 from surveillance and censorship. For this, he has faced pressure from some of the most
0:00:28 powerful governments and organizations on earth. In the face of this immense pressure,
0:00:33 he has always held his ground, continuously fighting to protect user privacy and the
0:00:39 freedom of all of us humans to communicate with each other. I got the chance to spend a few weeks
0:00:45 with him and can definitively say that he’s one of the most principled and fearless humans I’ve ever
0:00:53 met. Plus, when I posted that I’m hanging out with Pavel, a lot of people, fans of his, wrote to me
0:00:59 asking if he does, in fact, privately live the disciplined, ascetic life he’s known for. No
0:01:07 alcohol, stoic mindset, strict diet and exercise, including a crazy amount of daily pull-ups and
0:01:14 push-ups, no phone except to occasionally test Telegram features, and so on. Yes, he is 100% that
0:01:20 guy, which made the experience of hanging out with him really inspiring to me. I’m grateful
0:01:26 for it, and I’m grateful to now be able to call him a friend. This podcast conversation is in parts
0:01:33 philosophical about freedom, life, human nature, and the nature of government bureaucracies. And it is
0:01:39 also in parts super technical, because to me, it is fascinating that Telegram has a relatively small
0:01:46 engineering team, and yet is able to basically out-innovate all of his competitors with an insane
0:01:54 rate of introducing new, unique features. Just like the meme of the “Simpsons did it first,” when you consider
0:02:03 all the features we know and love in our communication apps, in almost every case, Telegram did it first. So we
0:02:09 discuss it all, from the Kafkaesque situation he’s in the midst of in France, to the roller coaster of his life and career,
0:02:16 to his philosophy on technology, freedom, and the human condition. And, by the way, while
0:02:22 this entire conversation is in English, we make captions and voice-over audio tracks available
0:02:28 in multiple languages, including Russian, Ukrainian, French, and Hindi. If this is of interest to you,
0:02:32 you will need to head over to the Lex Friedman channel on YouTube, where you can switch between
0:02:38 language audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking audio track, and then
0:02:44 selecting the language you prefer. Here, we only provide the original English version.
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0:11:23 And now, dear friends, here’s Pavel Durov.
0:11:34 You’ve been an advocate for freedom for many years, writing that you should be ready to risk
0:11:42 everything for freedom. What were some influences and insights that help you arrive at this value of
0:11:48 human freedom? I get to experience the difference between a society with freedom and a society without
0:11:55 freedom pretty early in life. I was four years old when my family moved from the Soviet Union to Northern
0:12:04 Italy. And I could see that a society without freedom cannot enjoy the abundance of opinions,
0:12:12 of ideas, of goods and services. Even for a four or five-year-old kid, it was obvious. Like,
0:12:21 you can’t experience all the toys, the ice cream of sorts, the cartoons in the Soviet Union that you can
0:12:27 access in access in Italy. And then I got to realize something even more important: you don’t get to
0:12:35 contribute to this abundance without freedom. And at this point, it was pretty obvious to me.
0:12:43 You also wrote “Svoboda важнее денег” translates to “Freedom matters more than money”. How do you prevent
0:12:51 these values for freedom being corrupted by people with influence, by people with power?
0:12:58 Well, the biggest enemies of freedom are fear and greed. So you make sure that they don’t stand in
0:13:06 your way. If you imagine the worst thing that can happen to you and then make yourself be comfortable
0:13:14 with it. There’s nothing more left to be afraid of. So you stand your ground and you remember that
0:13:23 it’s worth living your life according to the principles that you believe in, even though this
0:13:29 life can end up being shorter than a longer life, but lived in slavery.
0:13:32 Do you contemplate your mortality? Anything about your death?
0:13:34 Oh, yes.
0:13:35 Are you afraid of it?
0:13:44 In a way, you have to go against your instinct of self-preservation. And it’s not easy. We are all
0:13:52 biological beings hard-coded to be afraid of death. Nobody wants to die. But when you approach it rationally,
0:14:00 you leave and then you die. There’s no such thing as your death in your life. You stop experiencing life
0:14:07 once you die. So you have to ask yourself this question: is it worth living a life full of fear of
0:14:17 death? Or it’s much more enjoyable to forget about this and live your life in a way that makes you immune to
0:14:24 this fear? At the same time, remembering that death exists so that every day would count.
0:14:32 Yeah, remembering that death exists makes you deeply feel every moment that you do get.
0:14:36 That’s why I love reminding myself that I can die any day.
0:14:42 In many ways, you live a pretty stoic existence. I got a chance to spend a couple of weeks with you.
0:14:48 In many ways, you seek to minimize the negative effects of the outside world on your mind.
0:14:56 You’ve written, quote, “If you want to reach your full potential and maintain clarity of mind,
0:15:03 stay away from addictive substances. My success and health are the result of 20-plus years of complete
0:15:12 abstinence from alcohol, tobacco, coffee, pills, and illegal drugs. Short-term pleasure isn’t worth your
0:15:19 future.” Let’s talk about each one of these. Alcohol. What’s been your philosophy behind that?
0:15:27 That one is quite easy. When I was 11 years old, my biochemistry teacher, he gave me this book he wrote.
0:15:36 It was called “The Illusion of Paradise.” And there he would describe the biological and chemical processes
0:15:47 that happen in your body once you consume this or that substance. It was mainly related to illegal drugs,
0:15:50 but alcohol was one of these addictive substances that he covered.
0:16:00 So it turns out that when you drink alcohol, the thing that happens is that your brain cells become
0:16:09 paralyzed. They become literally zombies. And then next day, sometime after the party is over,
0:16:17 some of your brain cells die and never get to normal. So think about this. If your brain is this
0:16:24 most valuable tool you have in your journey to success and happiness, why would you destroy this tool
0:16:31 for short-term pleasure? This sounds ridiculous. Yeah. In many ways, it’s a poison we’ll let in our body.
0:16:36 But by way of advice, what advice would you give to people who consider not drinking? You know, a lot of
0:16:45 people use alcohol to, uh, enable them to have a vibrant social life. There’s a lot of pressures from society,
0:16:54 you know, at a party to drink so you can socialize. So what advice would you give to them, uh, to people
0:17:03 who imagine having a social life without alcohol? Well, first of all, don’t be afraid to be contrarian. Set your own rules.
0:17:12 Secondly, if you feel you need to drink, there must be some problem you’re trying to conceal. There’s something
0:17:19 that, some fear you’re not ready to, uh, confront. And you have to address this fear.
0:17:27 If there is a good-looking girl you’re afraid to approach, get rid of this fear, approach her,
0:17:34 practice, do it again and again. It’s pretty banal, but this advice works. Fix the underlying problem,
0:17:39 which is usually at the very bottom is always going to be fear. Work on that.
0:17:44 And very often people are trying to escape something in their lives with alcohol. What is
0:17:52 it they’re trying to escape? What is this problem? You have to get to the bottom of it. Your mind is
0:18:01 trying to tell you something valuable. And instead of addressing it directly, you are flooding it in alcohol,
0:18:11 which is sort of a spiritual painkiller, but works only temporarily. And then you have to pay
0:18:12 the debt with interest.
0:18:16 So what do you do? I mean, you’ve been in a lot of gatherings, a lot of parties.
0:18:19 Is there some challenges to saying no?
0:18:28 For me, for me not at all. I’ve been always ready to stand my ground and say no when I feel something’s not
0:18:37 right. And it’s extraordinary how easily we humans are affected by what we perceive as majority.
0:18:45 Because nobody, since ancient times, since a million years ago, wants to be left out by the tribe.
0:18:58 We are scared that we won’t become accepted anymore, which thousands and millions of years ago meant we’re
0:19:02 going to starve to death. So we have to consciously
0:19:14 fight this inclination to be agreeable with everything that the majority imposes on you.
0:19:20 Because it’s quite clear that many things that the majority, many activities the majority
0:19:24 is engaging in, are not bringing you any good.
0:19:31 So that’s another fear you have to face, going into a party and the fear of being the outcast at that
0:19:37 party, of being different than others at that party, at that social gathering, in the crowd of humans,
0:19:39 be different. That’s a fear.
0:19:46 That’s a fear. And it’s quite irrational if you think about it. It was something that made a lot of sense
0:19:54 20,000 years ago. It makes zero sense today. Because if you think about it, if you
0:20:00 do the same thing everybody else around you is doing, you don’t have any competitive advantage.
0:20:06 And you don’t get to become outstanding at some point in your life.
0:20:13 Yeah, that’s one of the things we talked about sort of by way of advice, is if you want to be successful
0:20:17 in life, you want to be different. Differently.
0:20:24 And perhaps, I think you said you want to achieve mastery at a niche. So find the niche at
0:20:30 which you can pursue with all your effort and achieve mastery. And the niche being different
0:20:35 than anything that anybody else is doing. Can you explain that a little bit more?
0:20:44 Obviously, in order to contribute to the society you’re in, to the economy of the country you live in,
0:20:50 you have to do something that is valuable. But if you’re doing something that everybody else is
0:21:00 doing anyway, what’s the value of it? Now, it sounds easier than it is done to do something that nobody
0:21:08 is doing. Because we humans are surrounded by all kinds of information, which makes us want to copy what
0:21:15 we are perceiving. At the same time, there are so many areas which you can explore that have nothing to
0:21:21 do with the information you receive on the daily basis. So it’s extremely important to curate the
0:21:32 information sources that you have. So that you wouldn’t be somebody who is left to the will of
0:21:42 AI-based algorithmic feed telling you what’s important. So that you end up consuming the same information,
0:21:48 the same stuff, the same memes, the same news as everybody else. But rather, you should be proactive.
0:21:58 You should deliberately try to set a goal, an area that you want to explore, and then actively search
0:22:09 information that is relevant to this field. So that one day, you can become the world’s number one
0:22:18 expert in this field. And it’s not that difficult to do that. You have to just remain consistent.
0:22:23 Because nobody else is trying to do that. Everybody else is just reading the same news
0:22:30 and discussing the same news every day. But this way, they don’t get to have a competitive advantage.
0:22:35 Yeah. Majority of the population becomes slaves to the AI recommender systems,
0:22:41 AI driven recommender systems. And so the content, everybody’s fed is the same thing and we all become
0:22:47 the same. On that point, one of the different things you do is you don’t use a phone,
0:22:53 except occasionally to test telegram features. But I’ve been with you for two weeks. I haven’t seen
0:22:58 you use a phone at all in the way that most people use a phone, like for their social media.
0:23:01 So can you describe your philosophy behind that?
0:23:08 I don’t think a phone is a necessary device. I remember growing up, I didn’t have a mobile phone.
0:23:16 When I was a student at the university, I didn’t have a mobile phone. When I finally got to use a
0:23:26 mobile phone, I never used phone calls. I was always in airplane mode or mute. I hated the idea of being
0:23:28 being disturbed.
0:23:32 My philosophy here is pretty simple.
0:23:36 I want to define
0:23:38 what
0:23:41 is important in my life.
0:24:01 I don’t want other people or companies, all kinds of organizations telling me what is important today and what I should be thinking about to set up your own agenda and the phone gets in your way.
0:24:10 It provides distractions. It guides what you should be looking at, what you will be looking at. So you don’t want that. You want to quiet the mind.
0:24:16 You want to choose what kind of stuff you let inside your mind.
0:24:24 Yes, because this way I can contribute to the progress of society, or at least I like to think this way. And this makes me happier.
0:24:30 How often do you find quiet time to just think and focus deeply on work without any distractions?
0:24:34 You mentioned to me that you value quiet mornings.
0:24:40 Yes, so the thing I’m trying to do is try to allocate as much time as possible
0:24:42 for sleep.
0:24:49 Now, even if I allocate, say, 11 or 12 hours for sleep, I won’t sleep for 11 or 12 hours.
0:24:55 So what I end up doing is I end up lying in bed thinking.
0:25:00 And some people hate it. They say, you have to take a sleeping pill, but I never take pills.
0:25:02 I love these moments.
0:25:15 I get so many brilliant ideas, or at least they seem brilliant to me at the moment, while I’m lying in bed, either late in the evening or early in the morning.
0:25:18 That’s my favorite time of the day.
0:25:23 Sometimes I wake up, I go take a shower, still without a phone.
0:25:33 Beautiful ideas can come to you while you’re doing your morning exercise, your morning routine, without a phone.
0:25:36 If you open your phone first thing in the morning,
0:25:44 what you end up being is a creature that is told what to think about for the rest of the day.
0:25:52 Same is true, in a way, if you’ve been consuming news from social media late at night.
0:26:00 But then how do you define what is important and what you really want to become in life?
0:26:06 Now, I’m not saying you have to completely stay away from all sources of information,
0:26:12 but take some time to think about what’s really important for you and what you want to change in this world.
0:26:17 So you definitely try to avoid digital devices for as many hours as possible in the morning?
0:26:24 Just to have the quiet thinking time, plus the crazy amounts of push-ups and squats.
0:26:32 I know it’s kind of counterintuitive because I founded one of the largest social networks in the world,
0:26:35 after which I founded the second largest messaging app in the world.
0:26:40 You’re supposed to be really connected.
0:26:45 But the conclusion you reach very early is that the more connected and accessible you are,
0:26:48 the less productive you are.
0:26:58 And then how can you run this thing if you’re constantly barbarded by all kinds of information,
0:27:03 most of which is irrelevant to the success of what you’re trying to build?
0:27:10 You know, the entire world can be fascinated by a fight,
0:27:14 a quarrel between the world’s richest man and the world’s most powerful man.
0:27:20 But for the vast majority of these people following this saga, it’s irrelevant.
0:27:22 It won’t change their lives.
0:27:26 And in any case, they can’t affect it.
0:27:29 So it’s a bit pointless.
0:27:35 Of course, there are people who are engaging in activities that require them to be up to date
0:27:37 of everything that’s going on.
0:27:40 But 99% of people aren’t.
0:27:46 The internet, social media presents to us drama
0:27:50 in such a way that we think it’s the biggest thing in the world,
0:27:54 the most important thing in which the tides of history will turn.
0:27:58 But in reality, most things will not turn the tides of history.
0:28:02 And so I guess our challenge is to figure out what is the timeless thing.
0:28:07 What is the thing that’s happening today that’s still going to be true in 10, 20 years?
0:28:12 And from that, decide what you’re going to do.
0:28:15 And that’s very difficult on social media because everybody’s outraged.
0:28:21 The news of the day, whatever the quarrel is, that’s the thing that everyone thinks the
0:28:23 world will end because of this thing.
0:28:26 And then another thing happens the next day.
0:28:29 And they’re trying to influence your emotions.
0:28:37 That’s how you get into trouble because you can be forced to make conclusions that are not in your
0:28:38 best interest.
0:28:42 I’ve seen you be, once again, quite stoic about your emotions.
0:28:44 Do you ever get angry?
0:28:46 Do you ever get lonely?
0:28:47 Do you ever get sad?
0:28:49 The roller coaster of human emotion.
0:28:51 And what do you do with that?
0:28:52 When you make difficult decisions?
0:28:54 I’m a human being like everybody else.
0:28:56 I do get to experience emotions.
0:28:58 Some of them are not very pleasant.
0:29:07 But I believe that it’s the responsibility of every one of us to cope with these emotions
0:29:11 and to learn to work through them.
0:29:22 Self-discipline is particularly important because without it, how can you overcome this seemingly
0:29:31 endless loop of negativity or despair that ultimately leads to depression for some people?
0:29:31 And I normally never have depression.
0:29:35 I don’t remember having depression in the last 20 years, at least.
0:29:37 Maybe when I was a teenager.
0:29:46 But one of the reasons for that is I start doing things.
0:29:52 I identify the problem.
0:29:54 And I start executing the strategy.
0:30:04 If you are stuck in this loop of being worried about something, nothing’s ever going to change.
0:30:08 And people often make this mistake thinking.
0:30:13 Oh, I should just have some rest and then regain energy.
0:30:15 This is not how it works.
0:30:18 You gain energy by doing something.
0:30:20 So you start doing something.
0:30:21 Then it happens.
0:30:22 You feel motivated.
0:30:24 You feel inspired.
0:30:30 And then ultimately, you do something else, a little bit more, a little bit more.
0:30:33 And in a few years, who knows, you may end up achieving great things.
0:30:35 Yeah, that’s the thing that people are really confused.
0:30:44 If you’re stuck in a depressive cycle, even when you really, really, really, really don’t want to do anything,
0:30:46 just do something.
0:30:48 Try, try to make progress.
0:30:50 Because the good feeling comes in the end of that.
0:30:54 The whole point is to do first and then feel, not feel and then do.
0:30:58 And going to the gym is a good example.
0:31:02 There are many days when you don’t want to start working out.
0:31:06 But you have to overcome this initial reluctance.
0:31:11 And then you get to a point that you enjoy it.
0:31:14 And you think, oh my god, it was such a good idea to come to the gym today.
0:31:18 But it’s similar to pretty much every activity.
0:31:22 You get to write some code.
0:31:25 Write a small piece of code first.
0:31:27 And then you get inspired.
0:31:29 Then you’ll come up with more ideas.
0:31:33 You need to write a novel or just write a paragraph.
0:31:39 This is pretty obvious and it’s not a secret.
0:31:45 But because we are bombarded with all kinds of information that is not really important for
0:31:52 us, in terms of becoming successful, we often forget the important things.
0:31:53 And this is one of them.
0:31:56 We’ve been working out every single day.
0:32:02 You have been working out for many years pretty intensively.
0:32:08 So I think a lot of people would love to know what’s your perfect daily workout regimen.
0:32:12 Let’s say on a daily, on a weekly basis.
0:32:25 I do 300 push-ups and 300 squats every morning and in addition to that, I go to the gym normally five, six times a week, spending between one and two hours every day.
0:32:29 So push-ups and squats are still a big part of your routine.
0:32:30 Yes, this is how I start my day.
0:32:38 I’m not sure they do a lot in terms of changing your body, but they’re definitely a good way to
0:32:41 practice self-discipline.
0:32:45 Because you don’t want to do these push-ups in the morning most of the days.
0:32:48 Squats are particularly boring.
0:32:51 They’re not that hard, they’re just boring.
0:33:02 But you overcome it and then it’s much easier to start doing other things related to your work, for example.
0:33:09 When I can, I also take a nice bath because it’s another exercise of self-discipline.
0:33:14 I think the main muscle you can exercise is this muscle, the muscle of self-discipline.
0:33:20 You know, not your biceps or your pecs or anything else.
0:33:29 Because if you get to train that one, everything else just comes by itself.
0:33:30 And everything else becomes easy.
0:33:37 We should mention, I went with you to Banya, and I think it’s fair to say you’re nuts.
0:33:41 In terms of how much you can handle.
0:33:44 And I didn’t even see the worst of it.
0:33:50 Can you just speak to your crazy escapades in the Banya, what value you get from it?
0:33:51 So both the heat and the cold.
0:33:54 I don’t know if it’s crazy.
0:33:58 I think it’s quite natural and normal by this time.
0:33:58 Yeah.
0:34:00 But maybe I could just get used to it.
0:34:08 So Banya is this extreme kind of sauna practiced by Eastern Europeans.
0:34:15 But it is done in a way that maximizes heat.
0:34:19 And they also use all kinds of herbs and branches.
0:34:24 And it’s a much more holistic and natural experience.
0:34:30 Then a necessary part of it is you get the cold plunge.
0:34:33 And then you go back.
0:34:39 And again, this is one of those things that maybe in the moment is not always that pleasant.
0:34:43 Particularly if you go to extreme temperatures.
0:34:45 You don’t feel great.
0:34:47 I don’t always feel great.
0:34:50 But this feeling is passing.
0:34:51 It’s only a few minutes.
0:34:53 Same with the ice bath.
0:34:56 You have to suffer a bit.
0:35:02 And then you get to feel great for hours and days after.
0:35:07 What’s more, it gives you this long-term health benefits.
0:35:12 In a way, you can look at it as alcohol in reverse.
0:35:19 Alcohol will give you this short, fleeting pleasure for an hour, for a couple of hours.
0:35:26 But then you will be paying for it with long-term negative consequences.
0:35:30 I’d rather do Banya in ice bath.
0:35:34 We swam the length of a large lake in France a couple of times.
0:35:38 Can you talk through why you value these multi-hour swims?
0:35:41 I left swimming for hours.
0:35:47 The longest I swam was five and a half hours in Finland.
0:35:48 It was quite cold.
0:35:50 I got lost in the process.
0:35:53 Barely could find my way back.
0:35:59 But the reason I do it, yes, you feel great after.
0:36:01 You’re shaking a little bit.
0:36:02 You feel great after.
0:36:05 You cross a huge lake, and I cross many lakes.
0:36:08 Geneva Lake, Zurich Lake.
0:36:17 And every time you feel this achievement, which makes you happy, makes you feel strong.
0:36:20 And then you’re more ready to other challenges.
0:36:31 And of course, when you know you’re going to start a journey that will last a few hours, you’re reluctant to do it.
0:36:36 But you swim for 10 minutes, and then for 20 minutes, and then for 30 minutes.
0:36:45 And it teaches you this incredible patience that I think is necessary if you want to achieve anything in life.
0:36:46 And it’s pretty meditative.
0:36:49 Lake versus ocean.
0:36:49 Yes.
0:36:52 And you don’t have to go too fast.
0:36:53 Yeah.
0:36:55 You can be slow and enjoy the moment.
0:36:57 Until you get lost, and it’s five and a half hours.
0:37:01 Did you panic, like, if you’re going to be able to find the shore, find your way out?
0:37:02 Not really.
0:37:06 I’m a reasonably stress-resilient person.
0:37:07 I didn’t panic at that moment.
0:37:13 And there were worse swims I had that were shorter, but involved accidents.
0:37:15 And you know about some of them.
0:37:18 So that wasn’t the worst by far.
0:37:26 But an important thing about swimming, and physical activity in general, is that it makes your mind clear.
0:37:30 And your thinking process is becoming more efficient.
0:37:44 Because at the end of the day, the efficiency of our brain is limited by how much sugar and oxygen our heart can push through blood to our brain.
0:37:46 So how can you make this go faster?
0:37:50 Or how do you make your lungs more efficient?
0:37:54 How do you make your heart more efficient in doing that?
0:37:58 Physical activity is the only way I know of.
0:38:05 So it’s not just staying healthy or trying to look good.
0:38:12 It’s also being productive.
0:38:15 It’s also being stress-resilient.
0:38:22 All of these qualities are necessary if you want to run a large company, if you want to start a company.
0:38:34 I’m surprised when I started doing this more than 10 years ago, that more CEOs didn’t engage in sports.
0:38:39 The situation changed in the last several years, which is great.
0:38:49 Because back in the day, if you take 20 years ago, there was this stereotype that if you’re strong, you must be not very smart, and vice versa.
0:38:52 Which is a complete lunacy.
0:38:55 Very often, these two things go together.
0:38:58 So for you, working on it’s not just about staying healthy.
0:39:04 It’s actually valuable for the work that you do as a tech leader, as an engineer, as a technologist.
0:39:05 Oh, yes.
0:39:16 When I can’t train, I can instantly feel that stress is creeping on me.
0:39:18 Yeah.
0:39:22 So even in situations where I’m constrained, I can’t go to gym.
0:39:24 I just keep doing push-ups.
0:39:27 I just keep doing squats.
0:39:28 Yeah.
0:39:32 I mean, that’s the cool thing about body weight exercise, you can just do it anywhere.
0:39:37 You can just pop all 50, 100 push-ups before a meeting.
0:39:42 Don’t you feel weird when you have a day without physical activity?
0:39:43 Yeah.
0:39:49 If I go a day without doing push-ups, at the very minimum, that’s a shitty day.
0:39:51 And if you can do pull-ups, it’s even better.
0:39:52 Yeah.
0:39:54 I got to ask you about your diet, too.
0:39:55 No processed sugar.
0:39:56 No fast food.
0:39:57 No soda.
0:40:02 Intermittent fasting sometimes once a day only, sometimes a couple times a day.
0:40:09 So take me through your philosophy on the no sugar, no soda, just clean food.
0:40:12 Well, sugar is pretty easy because it’s addictive.
0:40:17 The more you consume sugar, the more you want it, the hungrier you get.
0:40:25 So if you want to stay efficient and healthy, why consume processed sugar?
0:40:28 You’ll just end up snacking all the time.
0:40:37 Intermittent fasting, so eating only within six hours and not eating for 18 hours every day,
0:40:48 also brings structure into your day and into your eating habits.
0:40:50 So you don’t crave sugar anymore.
0:40:55 Because you know if you eat sugar and then you’re unable to snack,
0:40:57 you’re just punishing yourself.
0:41:01 I read a few books on longevity.
0:41:08 I think something everybody agrees on is that sugar is harmful.
0:41:12 No, I’m not militant about sugar.
0:41:17 Like, you can eat berries, fruit, if you feel your body needs it.
0:41:25 But it’s not true to think it’s necessary to consume sweet things.
0:41:29 Not for children, not for adults.
0:41:36 Red meat, I stopped eating it about 20 years ago because I just felt heavy every time I had it.
0:41:38 So I guess it’s individual.
0:41:39 It’s my metabolism.
0:41:47 My digestive system isn’t agreeing with this kind of food.
0:41:53 So I normally eat seafood of all kinds and vegetables.
0:41:58 This is the basic source of calories for me.
0:42:03 Yeah, and like all things, you said, short-term pleasure isn’t worth your future.
0:42:07 So a lot of things we all know that alcohol is destructive to the body.
0:42:11 Tobacco, pills, processed food, sugar.
0:42:13 But society puts that on you.
0:42:15 Makes it very difficult to avoid.
0:42:17 So I guess it all boils down to your discipline.
0:42:24 Yes, and trying to identify the real cause of an issue you’re experiencing.
0:42:35 If you’re experiencing a headache, one solution would be to take a pill and then the headache disappears.
0:42:43 What this pill would actually do in most cases, it would mute the consequence.
0:42:45 You’re feeling of pain.
0:42:46 It’s a painkiller.
0:42:49 It will not eliminate the root cause.
0:42:54 So you have to ask yourself, what is it that is causing this headache?
0:42:57 Do I need to drink some water?
0:43:00 Is the air quality here bad?
0:43:03 Do I need to start getting more sleep?
0:43:06 Is there something wrong with people around me?
0:43:08 They’re stressing me out.
0:43:12 There must be some reason why you’re experiencing a headache.
0:43:16 But if you take a pill, you’re not removing this reason.
0:43:18 You’re actually making it worse.
0:43:24 Because this harmful factor is still there.
0:43:26 It’s like you’re piloting a helicopter.
0:43:35 And there’s some red signal, some red lamp starts to blink and it starts producing bad, unpleasant noise.
0:43:37 What would you do?
0:43:40 You would try to figure out the cause and eliminate it.
0:43:45 Maybe there’s some bounty next to you and you have to avoid it.
0:43:48 Or you take a hammer and smash the signal.
0:43:51 I think the answer is quite obvious.
0:43:55 So why are we constantly doing this regardless?
0:43:57 Oh, because everybody else is doing it.
0:44:02 Because there’s a whole industry trying to persuade you that this is the right thing to do.
0:44:10 So it’s incredibly important to analyze yourself and try to get to the bottom of things.
0:44:14 So you generally try to avoid all pills, all pharmaceutical products.
0:44:20 Yes, I’ve been staying away from all of that since I became an adult.
0:44:24 When you’re a teenager, your mom would typically say, we need to take this pill.
0:44:27 Otherwise, you know, the world collapses.
0:44:39 Once I became a grown-up, I said, no, I don’t think that the producers of pill are incentivized in the right way.
0:44:45 They are not really interested in eliminating the root of the problem.
0:44:55 They would rather have me dependent on the pills they’re producing so that I could buy them forever.
0:45:00 And then I also realized, no, I’m not saying that you should never take pills.
0:45:10 There are obviously some diseases that you can only fight with antibiotics, for example.
0:45:16 So I’m not suggesting we go back to the Middle Ages.
0:45:20 But what I’m saying is we overuse pills.
0:45:26 Yeah, it’s always good to study and deeply understand the incentives under which the world operates.
0:45:30 So that you don’t get swept up into the forces that operate under these incentives.
0:45:33 And big pharma is certainly one of them.
0:45:39 Pharmaceutical companies have a huge incentive to keep the problem going versus solving the problem.
0:45:40 It’s wise.
0:45:44 Well, this is something I practice every day.
0:45:45 I read some piece of news.
0:45:47 And I ask myself,
0:45:52 who benefits from me reading this?
0:45:56 Then you can end up coming to this conclusion that
0:46:00 maybe 95% of things we read in the news
0:46:03 have been written and published
0:46:10 because somebody wanted you to buy some product,
0:46:13 support some political cause,
0:46:15 fight some war,
0:46:16 donate some money.
0:46:20 Let’s do something that would benefit other people.
0:46:20 And this is not
0:46:22 a problem
0:46:25 to support causes that you truly believe in
0:46:35 as long as it was your intentional choice and you’re not being manipulated into fighting other people’s wars.
0:46:39 And that takes us back to the original thing we started talking about, which is freedom.
0:46:49 One of the ways to achieve freedom of thought is to remove your mind from the influences, the forces that manipulate you.
0:47:02 That’s really important to realize that the content you consume, especially on the Internet, when a large percentage of it is designed to manipulate your mind, you have to disconnect yourself.
0:47:11 Be very proactive, understanding what the biases, what the incentives are, so you can think clearly, independently, and objectively.
0:47:18 And again, it ties back with restraint from alcohol.
0:47:24 Because if your mind is clouded, how can you analyze yourself?
0:47:29 You’ll always be dependent on opinions of others.
0:47:32 You will always follow the mainstream.
0:47:41 And then whatever the authorities or whoever in charge will tell you, you’ll believe it.
0:47:48 Because you don’t have a tool of your own to rely on, to come to your own conclusions.
0:47:52 I have to ask you, this is something that came up.
0:47:53 You don’t watch porn.
0:47:56 I don’t think I’ve heard you talk about this before.
0:47:58 What’s the philosophy behind not watching porn?
0:48:13 You know, there’s a lot of people that talk about porn in general having a very negative effect on young men, on their view of the world, on their development of their sexuality, and how they get into relationships and all that kind of stuff.
0:48:16 So what’s your philosophy in not consuming porn?
0:48:28 I don’t watch porn because I just feel it’s a surrogate, a substitute for a real thing that is not necessary in my life.
0:48:41 If anything, it just forces you to exchange some energy, some inspiration to a fleeting moment of pleasure.
0:48:43 It doesn’t make sense.
0:48:48 And in any case, as I said, it’s not the real thing.
0:48:54 So as long as you can access the real thing, you don’t need to watch porn.
0:49:00 But then if you can’t access the real thing, you shouldn’t watch porn as well.
0:49:06 Because it means there’s some deficiency in your life, some problem that you have to overcome.
0:49:09 Yeah, analyze the underlying cause.
0:49:19 And again, this goes back to the theme of investing in long-term flourishing versus short-term pleasure.
0:49:24 There’s a theme to the way you approach life.
0:49:25 I try to be strategic.
0:49:36 I try to act under assumption that I’m not going to die in one hour from now, and I’m going to stick around for a bit, despite the fact that we are all mortal.
0:49:43 So why would I exchange the mid- and long-term for the short-term?
0:49:44 It doesn’t make any sense.
0:49:45 Quick pause.
0:49:46 Bathroom break.
0:49:47 Yeah, let’s take a break.
0:49:50 All right, we took a break, and now we’re back.
0:49:52 I got to ask you about Telegram, the company.
0:49:55 I got to meet some of the brilliant engineers that work there.
0:50:02 Telegram runs lean relative to other technology companies that achieve the skill that Telegram does.
0:50:07 It has very few employees, so how many people are on the core team?
0:50:09 Let’s say the core engineering team.
0:50:13 The core engineering team is about 40 people.
0:50:24 This includes back-end, front-end, designers, system administrators.
0:50:31 Can you speak to the philosophy behind running a company with so few employees?
0:50:40 Well, what we realized really early is that quantity of employees doesn’t translate to quality of the product they produce.
0:50:43 In many cases, it’s the opposite.
0:50:50 If you have too many people, they have to coordinate their efforts, constantly communicate,
0:51:00 and 90% of their time will be spent on coordinating the small pieces of work they’re responsible for between each other.
0:51:11 The other problem with having too many employees is that some of them won’t get enough work to do.
0:51:17 And if they don’t get enough work to do, they demotivate everybody else by their mere existence.
0:51:22 They’re still there, they’re still getting the salary, but they don’t do anything.
0:51:31 And if they don’t do anything, more often than not, they will start trying to find their purpose elsewhere.
0:51:37 Maybe inside your team, but not by doing productive work,
0:51:44 but by finding problems that don’t exist within the team.
0:51:51 And that can disrupt the team and the mood inside it even further.
0:52:02 Also, when you intentionally don’t allow some of your team members to hire more people to help them,
0:52:07 they will be forced to automate things.
0:52:16 In our case, we have tens of thousands of servers around the world,
0:52:23 almost 100,000, distributed across several continents and data centers.
0:52:31 If you try to manage this system manually, without automation,
0:52:35 you will probably end up hiring thousands of people, tens of thousands of people.
0:52:42 But if you rely on algorithms, and the team is forced to put together algorithms
0:52:48 in order to manage it, then it becomes much more scalable,
0:52:52 much more efficient, and interestingly, much more reliable as well.
0:52:59 And more resilient to the changing geopolitics, to the changing technology, all of that.
0:53:06 Because if you automate the distributed aspect of the data storage and all the compute,
0:53:09 then that’s going to be resilient to everything the world throws at you.
0:53:15 I suppose if you have people managing all of it, it becomes stale quickly.
0:53:16 Yes.
0:53:17 Humans are attack factors.
0:53:26 And if you have a distributed system that runs itself automatically,
0:53:32 you have a chance at increasing the security of speed and speed of your service.
0:53:34 This is what we did with Telegram.
0:53:40 While also making it much more reliable,
0:53:43 because if some part of the network goes down,
0:53:47 you can still switch to the other parts of it.
0:53:54 One of the big ways you protect user privacy is that you store the data.
0:54:00 The infrastructure side of Telegram is distributed across many legal jurisdictions
0:54:03 with the decryption keys.
0:54:05 So it’s encrypted in the cloud.
0:54:08 The decryption keys are split and kept in different locations
0:54:14 so that no single government or entity can access the data.
0:54:16 Can you explain the strength of this approach?
0:54:20 The way we designed Telegram is
0:54:25 we never wanted to have any humans,
0:54:29 any employees have any access
0:54:31 to private messaging data.
0:54:36 That’s why since 2012,
0:54:40 when we’ve been trying to come up with this design,
0:54:44 we always invested a lot of effort into making sure
0:54:47 that nobody can mess with it.
0:54:51 Like if you hire an employee or any of the existing employees,
0:54:54 they can’t break the system in the way
0:54:57 that would allow them to access messages of users.
0:55:01 And then, of course, we launched an encrypted messaging
0:55:03 that is even more protected,
0:55:05 but it has certain limitations.
0:55:08 So you still have to rely on encrypted cloud.
0:55:13 So an interesting engineering challenge was
0:55:17 how you make sure that no point of failure
0:55:20 can be created within your team or outside.
0:55:23 So no employee can even access user messages.
0:55:24 So that’s the thing.
0:55:26 You know, we’re talking about encryption,
0:55:27 we’re talking about privacy,
0:55:27 we’re talking about security,
0:55:28 all these kinds of things.
0:55:30 I think the number one thing
0:55:32 that people are concerned about,
0:55:34 about which there’s also misinformation,
0:55:36 is about private messages.
0:55:42 So Telegram is very, very protective
0:55:44 of the private messages of users.
0:55:46 So you’re saying employees
0:55:50 never can access the private messages.
0:55:56 Have any governments or intelligence agencies
0:55:58 ever accessed private user messages?
0:55:59 In the past.
0:56:01 No, never.
0:56:02 Telegram has never shared
0:56:05 a single private message with anyone,
0:56:09 including governments and intelligence services.
0:56:12 If you try to access any server
0:56:15 in any of the data center locations,
0:56:17 it’s all encrypted.
0:56:20 You can extract all the hard drives
0:56:22 and analyze it,
0:56:25 but you won’t get anything.
0:56:27 it’s all encrypted in the way
0:56:28 that it’s undecipherable.
0:56:32 That was very important for us.
0:56:35 That’s why we can say with confidence
0:56:39 there hasn’t been ever
0:56:43 a leakage of data,
0:56:45 any leak of data from Telegram.
0:56:46 Not in terms of private messages,
0:56:49 not in terms of, say, contact lists.
0:56:51 Do you see in the future
0:56:53 a possible scenario
0:56:57 where you might share user private messages
0:56:59 with governments
0:57:01 or with intelligence agencies?
0:57:02 No.
0:57:04 We design a system
0:57:06 in a way that’s impossible.
0:57:09 It will require us to change the system,
0:57:11 and we won’t do that
0:57:12 because we made a promise to our users.
0:57:15 We would rather shut Telegram down
0:57:16 in a certain country
0:57:18 than do that.
0:57:21 So that’s like one of the principles
0:57:21 you operate under,
0:57:24 is you’re going to protect user privacy.
0:57:25 I think it’s fundamental.
0:57:28 Without the right to privacy,
0:57:32 people can’t feel fully free and protected.
0:57:35 I mean, this is a good place to ask.
0:57:36 I’m sure you’re pressured
0:57:37 by all kinds of people,
0:57:39 all kinds of organizations
0:57:42 to share private data.
0:57:45 Where do you find the strength
0:57:47 and the fearlessness
0:57:49 to say no to everybody,
0:57:51 including powerful intelligence agencies,
0:57:53 including powerful governments,
0:57:54 influential, powerful people?
0:57:56 I guess part of it is
0:57:58 just me being me.
0:58:00 I stood up
0:58:04 for myself and for my values
0:58:05 since I was a little kid.
0:58:08 I always had issues
0:58:09 with my teachers
0:58:11 because I would point out
0:58:13 their mistakes during classes.
0:58:15 And at the end of the day,
0:58:16 what’s important
0:58:18 is to remind yourself
0:58:20 that you have nothing to lose.
0:58:22 Like, they can think
0:58:24 they blackmail you with something,
0:58:25 they can threaten you with something,
0:58:27 but what is it
0:58:30 they really can do to you?
0:58:31 Like, worst case,
0:58:32 they can kill you.
0:58:34 But that brings us back
0:58:35 to the first part
0:58:36 of our discussion.
0:58:39 there’s no point
0:58:40 living your life in fear.
0:58:44 As for Telegram,
0:58:46 it’s incredibly successful,
0:58:47 but if we lose
0:58:49 one market
0:58:50 or two markets
0:58:51 or pretty much
0:58:52 all of the markets,
0:58:54 I don’t care that much.
0:58:55 It won’t affect me.
0:58:56 It won’t affect my lifestyle
0:58:57 in any way.
0:58:59 I will still be doing
0:59:00 my push-ups, you know?
0:59:06 so you don’t like encryption,
0:59:07 you don’t like privacy,
0:59:09 you think you should ban
0:59:10 encryption in your country,
0:59:12 like the European Union
0:59:13 is trying to do now
0:59:16 for all the member states?
0:59:18 Well, go ahead and do that.
0:59:20 We’ll just quit this market.
0:59:21 We won’t operate there.
0:59:22 It’s not that important.
0:59:23 they all think that
0:59:25 somehow we profit
0:59:27 from their citizens.
0:59:29 And the only goal
0:59:30 tech companies have
0:59:33 is extracting revenues.
0:59:34 And it’s true,
0:59:35 most tech companies
0:59:36 are like this.
0:59:38 But there are projects
0:59:39 like Telegram,
0:59:40 which are a bit different.
0:59:43 And I’m not sure
0:59:44 they realize that.
0:59:45 So for you,
0:59:47 the value of maintaining
0:59:48 your integrity
0:59:51 in relation to your principles
0:59:52 is more important
0:59:53 than anything else.
0:59:55 And of course,
0:59:55 we should say
0:59:56 that you also have
0:59:57 full ability
0:59:58 and control
0:59:59 to do just that
0:59:59 because you,
1:00:00 Paolo Durov,
1:00:03 own 100% of Telegram.
1:00:05 So there’s no other,
1:00:08 anybody with a say
1:00:09 on this question.
1:00:10 There are no shareholders,
1:00:12 which is quite unique.
1:00:14 Very unique.
1:00:14 I don’t think
1:00:15 there’s anything
1:00:16 even close to that
1:00:17 in any major tech company.
1:00:19 And this allows us
1:00:19 to operate
1:00:20 the way we operate.
1:00:25 To build this project
1:00:27 and maintain it
1:00:29 based on certain
1:00:31 fundamental principles,
1:00:33 which, by the way,
1:00:34 I think everybody believes in.
1:00:35 I think the right
1:00:36 to privacy
1:00:38 is included
1:00:39 in the constitution
1:00:40 of most countries,
1:00:41 at least most
1:00:42 Western countries.
1:00:44 But it’s still under attack
1:00:46 almost every week.
1:00:49 And it often starts
1:00:51 with well-meaning proposals.
1:00:53 Oh, we have to fight crime.
1:00:55 We have to do that.
1:00:56 We have to protect
1:00:56 the children.
1:00:58 But at the end of the day,
1:01:00 the result is the same.
1:01:01 People lose their right
1:01:03 to such fundamental thing
1:01:03 as privacy.
1:01:05 They sometimes lose
1:01:06 their right
1:01:07 to express themselves,
1:01:08 to assemble.
1:01:10 And this is a slippery slope
1:01:11 that we witnessed
1:01:11 in pretty much
1:01:14 every autocratic country
1:01:15 or country
1:01:16 that used to be free
1:01:17 and then became
1:01:18 autocratic.
1:01:20 No dictator
1:01:21 in the world
1:01:23 ever said,
1:01:23 let’s just
1:01:25 strip you away
1:01:25 from your rights
1:01:26 because
1:01:28 I want more power
1:01:29 to myself
1:01:30 and I want you
1:01:31 to be miserable.
1:01:33 They all justified it
1:01:36 with very reasonable
1:01:37 sounding
1:01:38 justifications.
1:01:39 And then
1:01:40 it came
1:01:41 in stages
1:01:42 gradually.
1:01:43 And
1:01:44 after a few years,
1:01:45 people would
1:01:46 find themselves
1:01:47 in a position
1:01:48 when they’re helpless.
1:01:49 They can’t protest.
1:01:50 Every
1:01:52 message they send
1:01:53 is monitored.
1:01:55 they can’t
1:01:56 assemble.
1:01:59 It’s over.
1:02:01 So you see
1:02:02 telegram is a place
1:02:03 that people
1:02:04 from all walks
1:02:04 of life,
1:02:05 from every nation
1:02:07 can have a place
1:02:09 to speak their mind,
1:02:10 to have a voice.
1:02:12 in the context,
1:02:13 in the geopolitical
1:02:14 context,
1:02:14 you’re mentioning
1:02:15 that governments,
1:02:16 when they become
1:02:17 autocratic,
1:02:18 naturally,
1:02:19 it’s the way
1:02:20 of the world,
1:02:20 human nature,
1:02:21 and the nature
1:02:21 of governments,
1:02:22 they become
1:02:23 more censorious.
1:02:24 They begin
1:02:25 to censor
1:02:26 and always
1:02:27 justifying it
1:02:28 in their minds,
1:02:29 perhaps assuming
1:02:29 that they’re
1:02:30 doing good.
1:02:31 Perhaps some
1:02:32 of them assume
1:02:32 they’re doing
1:02:33 good,
1:02:34 but
1:02:35 interestingly,
1:02:37 it always
1:02:38 results in
1:02:39 the state
1:02:40 accumulating
1:02:41 more power
1:02:42 at the expense
1:02:43 of the individual.
1:02:46 And then
1:02:46 where does it
1:02:47 stop?
1:02:49 You know,
1:02:50 we humans
1:02:50 are not very
1:02:51 good at
1:02:52 finding the
1:02:53 right balance,
1:02:54 and in this
1:02:54 case,
1:02:55 the right balance
1:02:56 between chaos
1:02:57 and order,
1:02:59 between freedom
1:03:00 and structure.
1:03:02 We tend
1:03:03 to go
1:03:04 to extremes.
1:03:06 I think you
1:03:06 still consider
1:03:07 yourself a
1:03:07 libertarian.
1:03:09 There is
1:03:09 something about
1:03:10 government that
1:03:10 always
1:03:13 over time
1:03:14 naturally
1:03:15 builds a
1:03:16 larger and
1:03:16 larger
1:03:17 bureaucracy,
1:03:18 and in that
1:03:19 machine of
1:03:20 bureaucracy,
1:03:20 it accumulates
1:03:21 more and more
1:03:21 power.
1:03:23 And it’s not
1:03:24 always that
1:03:26 one individual
1:03:27 member of
1:03:28 that bureaucracy
1:03:30 is the one
1:03:30 that corrupts
1:03:31 the initial
1:03:32 principles on
1:03:32 which the
1:03:32 government was
1:03:33 founded,
1:03:33 but just
1:03:34 something over
1:03:35 time you
1:03:35 forget.
1:03:36 You begin
1:03:37 to censor,
1:03:39 you begin
1:03:40 to limit
1:03:42 the freedoms
1:03:42 of the
1:03:43 individual,
1:03:44 the ability
1:03:44 of the
1:03:44 individuals
1:03:45 to speak,
1:03:46 to have a
1:03:46 voice,
1:03:47 to vote.
1:03:48 It just
1:03:49 gradually happens
1:03:49 that way.
1:03:51 And the
1:03:51 government is
1:03:52 not some
1:03:52 abstract
1:03:53 notion.
1:03:53 The
1:03:54 government
1:03:55 consists of
1:03:55 people,
1:03:57 and these
1:03:58 people have
1:03:59 goals.
1:04:00 They would
1:04:01 naturally be
1:04:03 inclined to
1:04:04 increase their
1:04:04 level of
1:04:04 influence,
1:04:06 to have more
1:04:07 subordinates,
1:04:08 to have more
1:04:09 resources.
1:04:10 and that’s
1:04:11 how you
1:04:11 end up in
1:04:13 an endless
1:04:14 loop of
1:04:17 ever-increasing
1:04:17 taxes,
1:04:18 ever-increasing
1:04:19 regulation,
1:04:22 which
1:04:23 ultimately
1:04:25 just suffocates
1:04:26 free market,
1:04:27 free enterprise,
1:04:28 and free speech.
1:04:30 So you do
1:04:30 want to have
1:04:31 very,
1:04:33 very strict
1:04:34 limitations
1:04:36 on the
1:04:37 extent the
1:04:38 government can
1:04:39 increase its
1:04:39 powers at
1:04:40 the expense
1:04:40 of citizens.
1:04:42 Ironically,
1:04:43 you don’t have
1:04:44 those limitations.
1:04:45 You’re supposed
1:04:45 in all
1:04:46 countries,
1:04:48 which are
1:04:48 considered to
1:04:49 be free.
1:04:52 It’s supposed
1:04:52 to be the
1:04:53 constitution that
1:04:54 protects everybody.
1:04:56 But
1:04:57 interestingly,
1:04:57 it doesn’t
1:04:58 work always
1:04:59 this way.
1:04:59 They are
1:05:00 able to
1:05:01 find
1:05:03 very tricky
1:05:04 phrasings
1:05:05 in order to
1:05:06 cover out
1:05:07 exceptions.
1:05:09 And then
1:05:09 the exception
1:05:10 becomes the
1:05:10 rule.
1:05:11 On this
1:05:11 topic,
1:05:14 I’d love to
1:05:14 talk to you
1:05:15 about the
1:05:16 recent saga
1:05:16 of you being
1:05:17 arrested in
1:05:18 August of last
1:05:19 year in France.
1:05:20 I think I
1:05:21 should say
1:05:22 that it’s
1:05:23 one of the
1:05:24 worst
1:05:25 overreaches
1:05:26 of power
1:05:27 I’ve seen
1:05:28 as applied
1:05:28 to a tech
1:05:30 leader in
1:05:30 recent history,
1:05:32 in all
1:05:33 history.
1:05:35 So it’s
1:05:36 tragic,
1:05:37 but I think
1:05:38 speaks to the
1:05:38 thing that
1:05:38 we’ve been
1:05:39 talking about.
1:05:41 So maybe
1:05:42 can you tell
1:05:42 the full
1:05:43 saga what
1:05:43 happened?
1:05:44 You arrive
1:05:45 in France.
1:05:46 I arrived
1:05:47 in France
1:05:47 last year
1:05:48 in August
1:05:49 just for a
1:05:50 short
1:05:50 two-day
1:05:51 trip.
1:05:53 And then I
1:05:54 see a
1:05:55 dozen of
1:05:56 armed
1:05:56 policemen
1:05:59 greeting me
1:05:59 and ask me
1:06:00 to follow
1:06:00 them.
1:06:04 they read
1:06:04 me a
1:06:05 list of
1:06:07 something
1:06:08 like 15
1:06:09 serious
1:06:09 crimes
1:06:11 that I’m
1:06:11 accused of,
1:06:15 which was
1:06:15 mind-boggling.
1:06:17 At first
1:06:18 I thought
1:06:19 there must
1:06:19 be some
1:06:19 mistake.
1:06:22 Then I
1:06:23 realized
1:06:23 they’re being
1:06:24 serious,
1:06:25 and they’re
1:06:26 accusing me
1:06:26 of all
1:06:27 possible crimes
1:06:28 that the
1:06:28 users of
1:06:29 Telegram have
1:06:31 allegedly
1:06:31 committed
1:06:32 or some
1:06:32 users.
1:06:36 and they
1:06:37 think I
1:06:37 should be
1:06:38 responsible
1:06:38 for this.
1:06:40 Which again,
1:06:41 like you said,
1:06:41 it’s nothing,
1:06:42 it’s something
1:06:42 that never
1:06:43 happened in
1:06:44 the history
1:06:44 of this
1:06:44 planet.
1:06:46 No
1:06:47 country,
1:06:48 not even
1:06:49 an
1:06:50 authoritarian
1:06:51 one,
1:06:54 did that
1:06:55 to any
1:06:56 tech leader,
1:06:57 at least
1:06:58 at this
1:06:58 scale.
1:06:59 There are
1:07:00 good reasons
1:07:00 for that,
1:07:01 because you’re
1:07:02 sacrificing
1:07:04 a big
1:07:04 part of
1:07:04 your
1:07:05 economic
1:07:05 growth
1:07:06 by sending
1:07:06 these
1:07:06 kind of
1:07:07 messages
1:07:08 to the
1:07:09 business
1:07:09 and
1:07:09 tech
1:07:10 community.
1:07:12 So they
1:07:16 put me in
1:07:16 a police
1:07:17 car,
1:07:18 and I
1:07:19 found myself
1:07:21 in police
1:07:21 custody.
1:07:24 A small
1:07:24 room,
1:07:25 no windows,
1:07:30 just a
1:07:32 narrow bed
1:07:33 made of
1:07:34 concrete.
1:07:35 I spent
1:07:36 almost four
1:07:37 days there.
1:07:39 In the
1:07:39 process,
1:07:40 I had to
1:07:41 answer some
1:07:42 questions of
1:07:43 the policemen
1:07:45 that were
1:07:46 interested in
1:07:50 how Telegram
1:07:50 operates.
1:07:54 most of
1:07:54 most of
1:07:55 it is
1:07:55 public
1:07:56 anyway,
1:07:56 and I
1:07:57 was
1:07:58 struck
1:07:59 by
1:08:01 very
1:08:01 limited
1:08:03 understanding,
1:08:03 or should
1:08:04 I say
1:08:04 even lack
1:08:04 of
1:08:05 understanding
1:08:07 on behalf
1:08:07 of
1:08:09 the
1:08:09 people
1:08:09 who
1:08:10 initiated
1:08:10 this
1:08:11 investigation
1:08:11 against
1:08:12 me
1:08:12 about
1:08:13 how
1:08:14 technology
1:08:14 works,
1:08:15 how
1:08:16 encryption
1:08:16 works,
1:08:18 how social
1:08:18 media
1:08:18 work.
1:08:19 I mean,
1:08:19 there’s
1:08:20 something
1:08:20 darkly
1:08:20 poetic
1:08:21 about
1:08:22 a tech
1:08:22 founder
1:08:23 of a
1:08:23 platform
1:08:23 where
1:08:24 a billion
1:08:24 people
1:08:24 are
1:08:25 communicating
1:08:25 with
1:08:25 each
1:08:26 other,
1:08:27 and you’re
1:08:27 on
1:08:28 concrete,
1:08:29 no pillow
1:08:30 for days,
1:08:31 no windows.
1:08:32 It’s like a
1:08:32 book.
1:08:33 I mean,
1:08:33 it reminds
1:08:33 me,
1:08:34 I’m a huge
1:08:34 fan of
1:08:35 Franz Kafka,
1:08:35 and he’s
1:08:36 written about
1:08:36 the absurdity
1:08:37 of these
1:08:38 kinds of
1:08:38 situations,
1:08:40 hence the
1:08:40 Kafka-esque
1:08:41 stories.
1:08:41 There’s a
1:08:42 story literally
1:08:43 about the
1:08:44 situation he
1:08:44 wrote,
1:08:46 perhaps predicted,
1:08:46 called the
1:08:46 trial,
1:08:48 where a
1:08:48 person is
1:08:49 arrested for
1:08:50 no reason
1:08:50 that anybody
1:08:51 can explain
1:08:51 and is
1:08:52 stuck in
1:08:52 the judicial
1:08:54 system for
1:08:54 a long
1:08:55 time,
1:08:56 that nobody,
1:08:57 fascinatingly in
1:08:58 that story,
1:08:59 neither the
1:09:00 person arrested
1:09:02 nor any
1:09:03 individual member
1:09:03 of the system
1:09:04 itself fully
1:09:05 understand what
1:09:06 is happening.
1:09:07 nobody can
1:09:08 truly answer
1:09:08 the questions,
1:09:10 and eventually
1:09:11 the person,
1:09:12 spoiler alert,
1:09:13 is mentally
1:09:14 broken by the
1:09:14 whole system,
1:09:15 which is what
1:09:16 bureaucracy can
1:09:18 do in its
1:09:18 most absurd
1:09:19 forms.
1:09:19 It breaks the
1:09:20 spirit, the
1:09:21 human spirit
1:09:22 laden in all
1:09:23 of us.
1:09:25 That’s the
1:09:25 negative side of
1:09:26 bureaucracy.
1:09:27 I agree with
1:09:28 you on the
1:09:29 absurdity of
1:09:31 this thing,
1:09:35 because if
1:09:36 this was a
1:09:37 good faith
1:09:38 attempt to
1:09:38 fix an
1:09:39 issue,
1:09:41 there were
1:09:42 so many
1:09:43 ways to
1:09:44 reach out
1:09:45 to Telegram,
1:09:45 to reach out
1:09:46 to me
1:09:46 personally,
1:09:47 voice their
1:09:48 concerns,
1:09:50 and solve
1:09:52 any alleged
1:09:53 problem in a
1:09:54 way that is
1:09:55 conventional
1:09:56 and diplomatic
1:09:57 the way
1:09:58 every other
1:09:59 country on
1:10:00 this planet
1:10:01 solves these
1:10:01 problems,
1:10:02 including with
1:10:03 Telegram,
1:10:03 and we did
1:10:04 it dozens of
1:10:04 times.
1:10:05 Yeah, you
1:10:06 have a nice
1:10:07 page showing,
1:10:08 this is kind
1:10:08 of like details
1:10:09 that most
1:10:09 people don’t
1:10:10 really think
1:10:13 about, but
1:10:14 Telegram is at
1:10:15 the forefront
1:10:18 of moderating
1:10:20 CSAM and
1:10:21 terrorist groups.
1:10:22 There’s a nice
1:10:23 page,
1:10:23 telegram.org
1:10:24 slash moderation
1:10:25 that shows just
1:10:26 the incredible
1:10:27 amount of
1:10:28 groups and
1:10:29 channels that
1:10:30 are engaged
1:10:31 in terrorist
1:10:31 activity and
1:10:32 CSAM activity
1:10:33 that are blocked
1:10:34 actively
1:10:35 blocked,
1:10:35 found,
1:10:36 and blocked
1:10:37 by Telegram.
1:10:38 And a lot
1:10:38 of this work,
1:10:39 like you said,
1:10:39 because the
1:10:40 automation is
1:10:40 done with
1:10:41 machine learning.
1:10:42 Just the
1:10:43 scale is insane.
1:10:44 This is stuff
1:10:45 that most
1:10:46 noobs like me
1:10:46 who are just
1:10:47 chatting it up
1:10:47 on Telegram
1:10:48 don’t think
1:10:48 about.
1:10:49 There’s just
1:10:50 an immense
1:10:51 number of
1:10:54 people essentially
1:10:56 doing things
1:10:56 that violate
1:10:57 the law
1:10:58 on there,
1:10:58 and you have
1:10:59 to find them
1:11:00 immediately and
1:11:00 catch it.
1:11:01 I guess all
1:11:02 platforms have to
1:11:02 deal with it,
1:11:03 and Telegram was
1:11:04 doing a great
1:11:05 job of dealing
1:11:06 with that kind
1:11:06 of content,
1:11:08 and what you’re
1:11:09 saying is the
1:11:09 French government
1:11:11 had no idea.
1:11:14 Do they even
1:11:14 know what
1:11:14 machine learning
1:11:15 is?
1:11:16 It’s a concept
1:11:18 that is challenging
1:11:19 to explain to
1:11:20 them, but I
1:11:21 think they will
1:11:22 learn much more
1:11:22 about it by the
1:11:23 end of this
1:11:23 investigation.
1:11:24 That’s my hope.
1:11:26 In any case,
1:11:26 you’re right.
1:11:27 I mean, if you
1:11:28 look at Telegram,
1:11:29 we’ve been
1:11:32 fighting harmful
1:11:33 content that
1:11:34 is publicly
1:11:35 distributed on
1:11:36 our platform
1:11:38 since 10
1:11:38 years ago.
1:11:40 Actually, since
1:11:41 the time we
1:11:43 launched public
1:11:43 channels on
1:11:45 Telegram, and
1:11:46 since something
1:11:47 like eight years
1:11:48 ago, we had
1:11:50 daily transparency
1:11:53 reports on
1:11:55 how many
1:11:57 channels related
1:11:57 to child
1:11:58 abuse or
1:11:59 terrorist
1:12:00 propaganda
1:12:02 we’re taking
1:12:02 down daily.
1:12:03 Every day we’ve
1:12:05 taken, maybe,
1:12:08 we take down
1:12:10 hundreds of
1:12:11 them, and if
1:12:13 you include all
1:12:14 kinds of content
1:12:14 that we remove,
1:12:16 all the accounts,
1:12:17 groups,
1:12:18 channels,
1:12:20 posts, that
1:12:20 would amount
1:12:22 to millions
1:12:23 of pieces
1:12:23 of content
1:12:24 every week,
1:12:25 hundreds of
1:12:26 thousands every
1:12:28 day, and then
1:12:28 somebody would
1:12:28 read the
1:12:30 newspaper, get
1:12:31 enraged because
1:12:33 they would read
1:12:34 something about
1:12:35 child porn, and
1:12:36 this is a
1:12:38 subject that is
1:12:39 very emotionally
1:12:41 charged, and
1:12:42 start doing
1:12:44 something not
1:12:46 based on data
1:12:48 and logical
1:12:49 thinking.
1:12:52 and laws, but
1:12:53 based on
1:12:55 emotions driven
1:12:56 from inaccurate
1:12:57 input.
1:12:58 Yeah, I think we
1:12:59 should make pretty
1:12:59 clear that there’s
1:13:00 no world, no
1:13:01 reason that the
1:13:02 French government
1:13:02 should have
1:13:03 arrested you, but
1:13:04 here we are, that’s
1:13:05 the situation you’re
1:13:05 in.
1:13:08 So to be clear, you
1:13:08 have to show up in
1:13:10 front of a judge, all
1:13:11 of this is beautifully
1:13:12 absurd, it would be
1:13:12 hilarious if it
1:13:13 wasn’t extremely
1:13:14 serious, you have
1:13:15 to show up in
1:13:16 front of a judge
1:13:19 every certain
1:13:19 amount of
1:13:21 time, and
1:13:22 what is that
1:13:22 experience like?
1:13:24 In France, they
1:13:25 have this role of
1:13:26 investigative judge, and
1:13:27 I don’t think you
1:13:28 have it in many
1:13:29 other places in the
1:13:29 world.
1:13:31 It means I’m not
1:13:33 on trial, I’m
1:13:34 being investigated.
1:13:37 And in France, it’s
1:13:38 not just the police
1:13:40 or prosecutor asking
1:13:41 me questions, it’s a
1:13:44 judge, which in my
1:13:45 experience is more
1:13:47 like, still a
1:13:49 prosecutor, but it’s
1:13:49 called a judge.
1:13:51 And that makes it
1:13:53 harder to appeal.
1:13:55 So if you’re
1:13:56 limited in, say,
1:13:57 countries where you
1:13:59 can travel, then to
1:14:00 appeal that restriction
1:14:01 will take you a lot
1:14:02 of time.
1:14:03 The investigation
1:14:05 itself should have
1:14:06 never been started.
1:14:09 It’s an absurd and
1:14:14 harmful way of
1:14:16 solving an issue
1:14:17 such, as
1:14:19 complicated as
1:14:21 regulating social
1:14:22 media.
1:14:24 It’s just the wrong
1:14:24 tool.
1:14:26 So we
1:14:30 objected and
1:14:31 appealed the
1:14:33 investigation itself.
1:14:34 We did last year, I
1:14:34 believe.
1:14:37 we’re still not
1:14:39 even given a
1:14:41 hearing date for
1:14:41 the appeal.
1:14:44 Because the
1:14:45 process is
1:14:46 painfully slow,
1:14:49 not just for me, but
1:14:52 for everybody, which
1:14:54 made me realize the
1:14:55 system may be broken
1:14:56 in many levels.
1:14:59 You have other
1:15:00 entrepreneurs affected
1:15:02 by the French
1:15:03 justice system
1:15:05 telling me horror
1:15:06 stories about their
1:15:06 experiences,
1:15:11 where businesses
1:15:13 got paralyzed
1:15:15 by very
1:15:17 unnecessary actions
1:15:18 of investigative
1:15:19 judges that
1:15:21 ended up being
1:15:23 unjustified and
1:15:23 biased.
1:15:24 And in the
1:15:25 end, you
1:15:26 can perhaps
1:15:28 solve it when
1:15:29 you reach a
1:15:30 higher
1:15:33 court and
1:15:33 you’ll get
1:15:34 justice.
1:15:36 But you’ll lose
1:15:38 a lot of time and
1:15:39 energy in the
1:15:39 process.
1:15:41 So this is the
1:15:42 only thing that
1:15:43 is, I hope,
1:15:45 different and
1:15:46 will be different
1:15:47 in this case
1:15:48 compared to the
1:15:49 story you told
1:15:51 from Kafka.
1:15:53 I mean, but it
1:15:54 does, as Kafka
1:15:55 describes, break a
1:15:56 lot of people
1:15:57 with time.
1:15:58 So when do you
1:15:58 hope?
1:15:59 We should say
1:16:00 that you were
1:16:01 for a long time
1:16:02 not allowed to
1:16:03 travel out of
1:16:03 France.
1:16:05 Now you can
1:16:06 travel to Dubai.
1:16:07 We’re now in
1:16:07 Dubai.
1:16:09 Got to meet
1:16:11 many of the
1:16:12 people that work
1:16:12 at Telegram.
1:16:13 Telegram is
1:16:14 headquartered in
1:16:14 Dubai.
1:16:15 But you’re not
1:16:16 allowed to travel
1:16:17 anywhere else.
1:16:18 When do you
1:16:18 think you’re
1:16:19 coming to Texas?
1:16:21 to hang out
1:16:22 with me over
1:16:22 there?
1:16:23 That’s a hard
1:16:24 question to
1:16:25 answer because
1:16:26 it doesn’t
1:16:27 depend on just
1:16:28 my actions.
1:16:30 I can just
1:16:31 say this.
1:16:34 I am patient.
1:16:36 I will
1:16:39 not let this
1:16:41 limitation on
1:16:41 my
1:16:44 freedom
1:16:46 dictate my
1:16:46 actions.
1:16:50 I will
1:16:51 if anything
1:16:52 double down
1:16:53 on defending
1:16:54 freedoms
1:16:55 because I
1:16:55 experienced
1:16:56 firsthand
1:16:58 what the
1:16:59 absence of
1:17:00 freedom
1:17:01 feels like
1:17:02 at least
1:17:03 during these
1:17:03 four days
1:17:05 in police
1:17:05 custody
1:17:07 when you’re
1:17:10 just stuck
1:17:11 unable
1:17:11 unable
1:17:12 unable to
1:17:15 communicate
1:17:15 with people
1:17:17 that are
1:17:17 important to
1:17:18 you
1:17:20 when you
1:17:21 don’t even
1:17:21 know what’s
1:17:21 going on in
1:17:22 the world
1:17:24 in relation
1:17:25 to you
1:17:25 personally.
1:17:27 So I have
1:17:27 no crystal
1:17:28 ball that
1:17:29 would tell
1:17:29 me the
1:17:29 future.
1:17:30 I can’t
1:17:31 say that I
1:17:32 am pessimistic.
1:17:33 I think
1:17:34 we’ve been
1:17:35 able to
1:17:35 gradually
1:17:36 remove
1:17:38 most of
1:17:38 the
1:17:39 restrictions
1:17:40 initially
1:17:41 imposed
1:17:41 on my
1:17:42 freedom
1:17:44 last
1:17:44 August.
1:17:46 If the
1:17:46 French
1:17:46 government
1:17:47 or the
1:17:47 French
1:17:47 intelligence
1:17:48 agency
1:17:50 want to
1:17:50 have a
1:17:51 back door
1:17:52 or a way
1:17:52 to access
1:17:53 private user
1:17:54 messages,
1:17:56 what would
1:17:56 you say
1:17:57 to them?
1:17:59 Is there
1:18:00 anything they
1:18:01 can do to
1:18:02 get access
1:18:02 to the
1:18:03 private user
1:18:03 messages?
1:18:05 Nothing.
1:18:07 my
1:18:08 response
1:18:08 would be
1:18:08 very
1:18:09 clear.
1:18:12 But it
1:18:13 won’t be
1:18:13 very polite
1:18:14 so I’m
1:18:14 not sure.
1:18:15 It’s good
1:18:16 to say
1:18:16 here.
1:18:17 It’s good
1:18:17 to say
1:18:18 because you’re
1:18:19 wearing a
1:18:19 tie.
1:18:20 Yeah,
1:18:20 it’s a
1:18:21 serious
1:18:21 adult
1:18:23 gentleman-like
1:18:23 program.
1:18:24 Yeah,
1:18:25 but that is
1:18:25 a concern
1:18:26 that people
1:18:27 have is when
1:18:27 you have so
1:18:28 much pressure
1:18:29 from governments
1:18:30 that over
1:18:31 time they’ll
1:18:31 wear you
1:18:32 down and
1:18:32 you’ll give
1:18:33 in.
1:18:34 And then
1:18:35 of course
1:18:36 other places
1:18:38 used that
1:18:38 as propaganda
1:18:39 to try to
1:18:39 attack you.
1:18:40 You get
1:18:40 attacked by
1:18:41 basically every
1:18:42 nation.
1:18:44 So it’s a
1:18:45 difficult medium
1:18:46 in which to
1:18:46 operate.
1:18:47 It’s difficult
1:18:48 to be you
1:18:48 fighting for
1:18:49 freedom,
1:18:49 fighting to
1:18:49 preserve
1:18:50 people’s
1:18:50 privacy.
1:18:51 But is
1:18:52 there something
1:18:52 you could
1:18:52 say to
1:18:53 reassure
1:18:54 people that
1:18:54 you’re not
1:18:55 going to
1:18:57 sacrifice any
1:18:57 of the
1:18:57 principles that
1:18:58 you’ve just
1:19:00 expressed if
1:19:01 the French
1:19:02 government just
1:19:02 keeps wearing
1:19:03 you down?
1:19:04 I think
1:19:05 the French
1:19:05 government is
1:19:06 losing this
1:19:07 battle.
1:19:08 This battle
1:19:09 is wrong.
1:19:10 The more
1:19:13 pressure I
1:19:15 get, the
1:19:18 more resilient
1:19:19 and defiant I
1:19:20 become.
1:19:21 Yeah.
1:19:22 And I think
1:19:23 I have proven
1:19:24 that in the
1:19:25 last several
1:19:26 months when
1:19:27 there were
1:19:28 attempts to
1:19:29 use my
1:19:30 situation being
1:19:30 stuck here in
1:19:32 France by
1:19:33 approaching me
1:19:35 and asking
1:19:35 me to do
1:19:36 things in
1:19:37 other countries,
1:19:38 blocking
1:19:39 certain channels,
1:19:42 changing the
1:19:42 way telegram
1:19:43 works.
1:19:44 And not
1:19:45 only I
1:19:46 refused, I
1:19:47 told the
1:19:47 world about
1:19:47 it.
1:19:49 And I’m
1:19:49 going to
1:19:50 keep telling
1:19:50 the world
1:19:52 about every
1:19:52 instance.
1:19:55 Any
1:19:55 government,
1:19:56 in this
1:19:57 case, in
1:19:57 particular the
1:19:57 French
1:19:58 government,
1:20:01 tries to
1:20:02 force me
1:20:02 to do
1:20:03 anything.
1:20:04 And I
1:20:05 would rather
1:20:05 lose
1:20:06 everything I
1:20:07 have than
1:20:08 yield to
1:20:08 this
1:20:09 pressure.
1:20:10 Because if
1:20:12 you submit
1:20:13 to this
1:20:13 pressure and
1:20:14 agree with
1:20:15 something that
1:20:15 is fundamentally
1:20:17 wrong and
1:20:18 violates the
1:20:19 rights of
1:20:19 other people
1:20:20 as well,
1:20:22 you become
1:20:23 broken inside.
1:20:25 You become a
1:20:25 shell of your
1:20:26 former self
1:20:28 on a
1:20:29 deep
1:20:29 biological
1:20:30 and
1:20:30 spiritual
1:20:31 level.
1:20:33 So I
1:20:33 wouldn’t do
1:20:33 that.
1:20:34 There are
1:20:34 probably other
1:20:35 people in
1:20:35 the world
1:20:36 that would
1:20:37 consider that.
1:20:39 But I
1:20:40 don’t care.
1:20:40 Telegram
1:20:41 disappears to
1:20:42 something people
1:20:43 don’t understand,
1:20:44 including in
1:20:44 these
1:20:46 intelligence
1:20:47 services or
1:20:48 governments.
1:20:49 I don’t
1:20:49 care.
1:20:52 I’ll be
1:20:54 fine if
1:20:55 they put
1:20:56 me into
1:20:57 prison for
1:20:57 20 years,
1:20:59 which,
1:21:00 let’s be
1:21:01 clear, it’s
1:21:01 not something
1:21:02 that I
1:21:03 think is
1:21:03 realistic,
1:21:04 but let’s
1:21:08 just think
1:21:09 about it as
1:21:10 a hypothetical
1:21:11 situation.
1:21:13 I would
1:21:14 rather starve
1:21:14 myself to
1:21:15 death and
1:21:15 die there,
1:21:17 reboot the
1:21:17 whole game,
1:21:20 than do
1:21:21 something stupid.
1:21:23 Let me ask
1:21:24 you about an
1:21:25 example of
1:21:25 the thing
1:21:26 you’re talking
1:21:26 about.
1:21:26 Tell the
1:21:27 saga of
1:21:27 telegram in
1:21:28 the Romanian
1:21:29 election.
1:21:30 So amidst
1:21:30 all this,
1:21:31 you are still
1:21:33 fighting to
1:21:33 preserve the
1:21:34 freedom of
1:21:34 speech.
1:21:35 What happened?
1:21:35 And what
1:21:36 were some
1:21:36 of the
1:21:37 decisions you
1:21:37 had to
1:21:37 make?
1:21:38 So when
1:21:38 I got
1:21:39 stuck in
1:21:40 France,
1:21:41 unable to
1:21:42 leave the
1:21:43 country for
1:21:44 a few
1:21:44 months,
1:21:46 I was
1:21:47 offered to
1:21:48 meet the
1:21:48 head of
1:21:49 state foreign
1:21:50 intelligence
1:21:51 services through
1:21:53 a person I
1:21:54 know quite
1:21:54 well.
1:21:55 He’s
1:21:56 actually a
1:21:58 well-known
1:21:58 tech
1:21:59 entrepreneur in
1:21:59 France, and
1:22:00 he’s well
1:22:01 connected.
1:22:01 And he
1:22:01 said, this
1:22:02 guy wants
1:22:02 to meet
1:22:02 you.
1:22:02 I said,
1:22:03 okay, fine.
1:22:04 Let’s do
1:22:05 that, but I’m
1:22:06 not promising
1:22:06 anything.
1:22:08 I took
1:22:08 the
1:22:09 meeting, and
1:22:10 in this
1:22:13 meeting, I
1:22:13 was asked
1:22:16 to restrict
1:22:18 what I see
1:22:18 as restriction
1:22:19 of freedom
1:22:19 of speech
1:22:21 in Romania.
1:22:24 I don’t
1:22:24 know if you
1:22:25 follow the
1:22:27 whole saga
1:22:27 with the
1:22:27 Romanian
1:22:28 elections.
1:22:29 They had
1:22:30 presidential
1:22:31 elections last
1:22:31 year.
1:22:32 The results
1:22:33 got canceled.
1:22:36 now Romania
1:22:36 at that
1:22:37 point, when
1:22:38 I had this
1:22:38 meeting, was
1:22:39 preparing for
1:22:39 a new
1:22:41 presidential
1:22:41 elections.
1:22:42 The
1:22:43 conservative
1:22:44 candidate was
1:22:45 not somebody
1:22:46 who the
1:22:47 French
1:22:47 government was
1:22:48 supportive of.
1:22:50 So they
1:22:50 asked me
1:22:52 whether I
1:22:53 would be
1:22:54 shutting down
1:22:55 or ready
1:22:55 to shut
1:22:56 down
1:22:58 channels on
1:22:58 Telegram
1:23:00 that supported
1:23:01 the conservative
1:23:01 candidate,
1:23:03 or protest
1:23:05 against the
1:23:06 pro-European
1:23:08 candidates, so
1:23:09 they called
1:23:10 the guy they
1:23:10 liked.
1:23:12 I said,
1:23:12 look, if
1:23:13 there is no
1:23:14 violation of
1:23:15 the rules of
1:23:15 Telegram, which
1:23:16 are quite
1:23:18 clear, you
1:23:18 can’t call to
1:23:19 violence.
1:23:21 But if it’s a
1:23:22 peaceful demonstration,
1:23:23 if it’s a
1:23:24 peaceful debate,
1:23:27 we can’t do
1:23:27 this.
1:23:28 It would be
1:23:29 political
1:23:29 censorship.
1:23:32 we protected
1:23:32 freedom of
1:23:33 speech in
1:23:33 many countries
1:23:34 in the
1:23:35 world, including
1:23:36 in Asia, in
1:23:37 Eastern Europe,
1:23:38 in the Middle
1:23:38 East.
1:23:39 We are not
1:23:40 going to start
1:23:41 engaging in
1:23:42 censorship in
1:23:46 Europe, no
1:23:46 matter who
1:23:47 is asking
1:23:47 us.
1:23:48 I was very
1:23:49 clear to the
1:23:49 guy who was
1:23:50 the head of
1:23:50 French
1:23:50 intelligence.
1:23:52 I said, if
1:23:53 you think
1:23:55 that because
1:23:55 I’m stuck
1:23:57 here, you
1:23:57 can tell me
1:23:58 what to do,
1:23:59 you’re very
1:23:59 wrong.
1:24:02 I would
1:24:03 rather do
1:24:03 the opposite
1:24:04 every time.
1:24:07 And in
1:24:07 a way, that’s
1:24:08 what I did.
1:24:14 I had a
1:24:14 small debate
1:24:15 with him
1:24:15 about the
1:24:16 morality of
1:24:17 this whole
1:24:18 thing, and
1:24:19 then at a
1:24:20 certain point,
1:24:21 just disclosed
1:24:22 the content of
1:24:23 this entire
1:24:23 conversation,
1:24:24 because I
1:24:25 never signed
1:24:25 an NDA.
1:24:26 I don’t ever
1:24:27 sign NDAs with
1:24:28 any people
1:24:28 like that.
1:24:30 I want to
1:24:30 be able to
1:24:30 tell the
1:24:31 world what’s
1:24:32 going on.
1:24:35 And that’s
1:24:35 quite
1:24:38 shocking to
1:24:39 me, that
1:24:40 you would
1:24:41 have people
1:24:41 in the
1:24:42 French
1:24:42 government
1:24:45 trying to
1:24:45 get advantage
1:24:47 of this
1:24:48 situation, of
1:24:49 course, if
1:24:50 they had
1:24:51 nothing to
1:24:51 do with
1:24:53 the start
1:24:54 of this
1:24:54 investigation
1:24:58 itself, and
1:25:00 use it to
1:25:01 reach their
1:25:02 political or
1:25:03 geopolitical
1:25:03 goals.
1:25:07 I consider
1:25:09 it an
1:25:09 attempt to
1:25:10 humiliate
1:25:10 myself
1:25:11 personally and
1:25:13 millions of
1:25:14 Telegram users
1:25:15 collectively.
1:25:16 And it’s
1:25:17 quite strange
1:25:18 that the
1:25:19 same agency
1:25:20 asked us to
1:25:21 do certain
1:25:22 things in
1:25:22 Moldova as
1:25:23 well.
1:25:24 So even
1:25:24 before that,
1:25:25 I think it
1:25:26 was October
1:25:26 last year,
1:25:28 or September,
1:25:29 I was
1:25:31 arrested in
1:25:31 Paris in
1:25:32 late August.
1:25:35 And then
1:25:35 again approached
1:25:36 through an
1:25:37 intermediary and
1:25:38 asked, would
1:25:39 you mind
1:25:39 taking down
1:25:41 some channels
1:25:41 in
1:25:42 Moldova
1:25:42 because
1:25:43 there is
1:25:43 an election
1:25:44 going on
1:25:46 and we
1:25:47 were afraid
1:25:47 there’s going
1:25:48 to be some
1:25:49 interference
1:25:50 with these
1:25:50 elections.
1:25:53 Could you
1:25:53 please
1:25:55 connect
1:25:55 with
1:25:58 representatives
1:25:59 of the
1:25:59 government
1:26:00 of Moldova
1:26:01 and take
1:26:01 care of
1:26:01 it?
1:26:03 We said
1:26:04 we’re happy
1:26:04 to take a
1:26:05 look at it
1:26:05 and see
1:26:07 if there
1:26:08 is content
1:26:09 there that
1:26:09 is in
1:26:10 violation of
1:26:10 our rules.
1:26:12 And they
1:26:12 sent us a
1:26:13 list of
1:26:14 channels and
1:26:14 bots.
1:26:15 Some of
1:26:15 them were
1:26:16 so it was
1:26:17 a very short
1:26:17 list and
1:26:18 some of
1:26:18 these channels
1:26:19 and bots
1:26:22 were in
1:26:23 violation indeed
1:26:23 of our
1:26:24 rules and
1:26:24 we took
1:26:25 them down.
1:26:25 Only a few
1:26:25 of them.
1:26:28 The rest
1:26:29 were okay.
1:26:31 Then they
1:26:31 said thank
1:26:32 you and
1:26:32 sent us
1:26:33 another list
1:26:35 of dozens
1:26:35 of channels,
1:26:36 many, many
1:26:36 channels.
1:26:38 We looked
1:26:38 at these
1:26:39 channels,
1:26:39 we realized
1:26:40 that there
1:26:41 is no
1:26:41 solid
1:26:42 foundation
1:26:45 to justify
1:26:45 banning
1:26:47 them and
1:26:48 we refused
1:26:48 to do
1:26:48 that.
1:26:50 But
1:26:50 interestingly
1:26:51 enough,
1:26:53 the
1:26:56 French
1:26:56 intelligence
1:26:57 services
1:26:58 that
1:27:01 were asking
1:27:01 us
1:27:03 to
1:27:05 do this
1:27:06 in
1:27:06 Moldova
1:27:10 let me
1:27:10 know
1:27:12 through
1:27:12 their
1:27:13 contact
1:27:14 that
1:27:17 after
1:27:18 Telegram
1:27:18 banned
1:27:19 the few
1:27:19 channels
1:27:20 that were
1:27:20 in
1:27:20 violation
1:27:21 of our
1:27:21 rules
1:27:22 in
1:27:23 Moldova,
1:27:25 they talked
1:27:25 to my
1:27:26 judge,
1:27:27 the investigative
1:27:28 judge in
1:27:28 this
1:27:28 investigation
1:27:29 that
1:27:31 has been
1:27:31 started
1:27:32 against
1:27:32 against
1:27:32 me
1:27:34 and
1:27:35 told
1:27:35 the
1:27:35 judge
1:27:36 good
1:27:36 things
1:27:36 about
1:27:36 me,
1:27:38 which I
1:27:38 found
1:27:39 very
1:27:40 confusing
1:27:43 and in a
1:27:43 way shocking
1:27:44 because
1:27:46 these two
1:27:47 matters have
1:27:48 nothing in
1:27:48 common.
1:27:50 why would
1:27:51 anyone
1:27:52 talk to
1:27:52 an
1:27:53 investigative
1:27:54 judge
1:27:55 that is
1:27:57 trying to
1:27:57 find out
1:27:57 whether
1:27:58 Telegram
1:27:59 did
1:28:00 a good
1:28:00 enough
1:28:01 job
1:28:02 in
1:28:04 removing
1:28:04 illegal
1:28:05 content
1:28:06 in
1:28:06 France?
1:28:08 What does
1:28:09 Moldova have
1:28:09 to do
1:28:10 with it?
1:28:12 I got
1:28:12 very
1:28:13 suspicious
1:28:14 at that
1:28:15 moment.
1:28:15 Remember,
1:28:16 it happened
1:28:17 after we
1:28:19 blocked
1:28:19 a few
1:28:20 channels
1:28:20 that
1:28:21 violated
1:28:21 our
1:28:21 rules,
1:28:22 but
1:28:23 before
1:28:23 we
1:28:24 refused
1:28:24 to
1:28:24 block
1:28:24 a
1:28:25 long
1:28:25 list
1:28:25 of
1:28:26 other
1:28:26 channels
1:28:27 that
1:28:27 were
1:28:27 completely
1:28:28 fine,
1:28:29 which is
1:28:29 people
1:28:30 expressing
1:28:30 political
1:28:31 views,
1:28:32 which
1:28:33 I may
1:28:34 not agree
1:28:34 with,
1:28:35 but it’s
1:28:35 their right
1:28:36 to express
1:28:36 them.
1:28:38 Not
1:28:38 extreme
1:28:39 views,
1:28:40 not
1:28:41 views
1:28:41 that
1:28:42 call to
1:28:42 violence.
1:28:46 That
1:28:46 was
1:28:47 extremely
1:28:48 alarming.
1:28:49 That
1:28:49 was
1:28:50 a
1:28:50 moment
1:28:51 when
1:28:52 I
1:28:53 told
1:28:53 myself
1:28:55 that
1:28:55 there
1:28:56 may
1:28:56 be
1:28:56 more
1:28:57 going
1:28:58 on
1:28:58 here
1:28:59 than
1:28:59 I
1:28:59 initially
1:29:00 thought.
1:29:00 Initially,
1:29:00 I thought
1:29:03 some
1:29:03 people are
1:29:04 confused
1:29:04 about
1:29:04 how
1:29:05 technology
1:29:05 works.
1:29:08 And
1:29:08 here,
1:29:10 after
1:29:10 this
1:29:11 case
1:29:12 in
1:29:12 Moldova,
1:29:14 I
1:29:15 got
1:29:15 much
1:29:15 more
1:29:16 suspicious.
1:29:17 So by
1:29:17 the
1:29:17 time
1:29:18 the
1:29:19 head
1:29:19 of
1:29:20 intelligence
1:29:20 services
1:29:20 met
1:29:21 me
1:29:22 to
1:29:22 ask
1:29:22 about
1:29:23 Romania,
1:29:25 to help
1:29:26 them
1:29:26 silencing
1:29:28 conservative
1:29:28 voices
1:29:29 in
1:29:30 Romania,
1:29:30 I was
1:29:33 already
1:29:34 wary
1:29:36 of
1:29:37 what
1:29:37 can
1:29:38 be
1:29:38 going
1:29:39 on
1:29:39 next.
1:29:40 Yeah,
1:29:40 so clearly
1:29:41 this was
1:29:41 a
1:29:43 systematic
1:29:44 attempt
1:29:44 to
1:29:44 pressure
1:29:45 you
1:29:45 to
1:29:45 censor
1:29:46 political
1:29:46 voices
1:29:47 that
1:29:47 the
1:29:47 French
1:29:48 government
1:29:48 doesn’t
1:29:48 agree
1:29:48 with.
1:29:49 And we
1:29:49 should
1:29:49 say
1:29:50 that
1:29:50 you
1:29:51 have
1:29:51 fought
1:29:51 for
1:29:51 freedom
1:29:52 of
1:29:52 speech
1:29:54 for
1:29:55 left-wing
1:29:56 groups
1:29:56 and
1:29:56 right-wing
1:29:57 groups,
1:29:57 it really
1:29:57 doesn’t
1:29:57 matter.
1:29:59 So it’s
1:29:59 not,
1:30:00 you don’t
1:30:00 have a
1:30:01 political
1:30:02 affiliation,
1:30:02 political
1:30:03 ideology
1:30:03 that you
1:30:04 fight for,
1:30:05 you’re
1:30:06 creating a
1:30:07 platform
1:30:08 that,
1:30:08 as long
1:30:09 as they
1:30:09 don’t call
1:30:09 for
1:30:10 violence,
1:30:12 allows
1:30:12 people from
1:30:13 all walks
1:30:13 of life,
1:30:13 from all
1:30:14 ideologies
1:30:14 to speak
1:30:15 their mind.
1:30:16 That’s
1:30:16 the whole
1:30:16 point.
1:30:17 And it
1:30:18 happens to
1:30:18 be
1:30:18 conservative
1:30:19 voices
1:30:19 in the
1:30:19 remaining
1:30:20 election
1:30:21 that the
1:30:21 French
1:30:21 government
1:30:22 wanted to
1:30:22 censor
1:30:23 because
1:30:23 currently
1:30:23 the
1:30:24 French
1:30:24 government
1:30:24 leads
1:30:25 left.
1:30:25 But if
1:30:26 you flip
1:30:26 everything
1:30:26 around
1:30:27 and the
1:30:28 government
1:30:28 would be
1:30:28 right-wing,
1:30:29 you’d be
1:30:29 fighting
1:30:29 for,
1:30:31 again,
1:30:31 censorship
1:30:31 of
1:30:32 left-wing
1:30:32 voices.
1:30:33 And you
1:30:33 have in
1:30:34 the past
1:30:35 many times.
1:30:36 Exactly.
1:30:37 Ironically,
1:30:37 we received
1:30:39 a request
1:30:39 from the
1:30:39 French
1:30:40 police to
1:30:41 take down
1:30:42 a channel
1:30:43 of far-left
1:30:44 protesters
1:30:45 on Telegram
1:30:47 in France.
1:30:49 we refused
1:30:49 to do
1:30:49 that.
1:30:50 We looked
1:30:50 at the
1:30:50 channel,
1:30:51 peaceful
1:30:52 protesters.
1:30:55 It doesn’t
1:30:56 matter for
1:30:56 us whether
1:30:57 we are
1:30:57 defending
1:30:58 the freedom
1:30:59 of speech
1:31:00 of people
1:31:01 leaning right
1:31:02 or leaning
1:31:02 left.
1:31:05 during COVID
1:31:05 we were
1:31:06 protecting
1:31:09 activists
1:31:10 that were
1:31:11 organizing
1:31:12 the Black
1:31:13 Lives Matter
1:31:15 events.
1:31:18 And the
1:31:18 other side,
1:31:20 the protesters
1:31:20 against
1:31:22 lockdowns,
1:31:24 we protect
1:31:25 everybody as
1:31:25 long as they
1:31:27 are not
1:31:29 crossing the
1:31:30 lines and
1:31:31 not starting
1:31:34 to call
1:31:35 to violence
1:31:35 or
1:31:38 incite
1:31:39 damage to
1:31:40 public
1:31:40 property.
1:31:42 It’s a
1:31:43 fundamental
1:31:43 right to
1:31:44 assemble.
1:31:46 It’s
1:31:46 interesting
1:31:47 that
1:31:50 people who
1:31:51 haven’t had
1:31:52 this experience
1:31:53 of living
1:31:55 in countries
1:31:56 that don’t
1:31:56 have
1:31:57 freedoms
1:31:59 don’t
1:31:59 always
1:32:00 realize
1:32:02 how
1:32:03 dangerous
1:32:03 it is
1:32:05 to
1:32:06 gradually
1:32:07 compromise
1:32:10 your
1:32:10 values,
1:32:11 your
1:32:11 principles,
1:32:11 your
1:32:12 freedoms,
1:32:12 your
1:32:12 rights.
1:32:16 Because they
1:32:16 don’t understand
1:32:17 what’s at
1:32:17 stake.
1:32:18 Yeah,
1:32:19 these things
1:32:20 become a
1:32:20 slippery slope.
1:32:21 So you’ve
1:32:22 for many,
1:32:22 many years,
1:32:23 including
1:32:24 currently,
1:32:25 have spoken
1:32:25 very highly
1:32:26 of France.
1:32:27 You love
1:32:28 French history,
1:32:29 French culture.
1:32:32 I think
1:32:33 this situation,
1:32:34 this historic
1:32:35 wrong that’s
1:32:36 been done,
1:32:39 is put
1:32:40 simply as
1:32:40 just a
1:32:40 gigantic
1:32:42 PR mistake
1:32:43 for France.
1:32:44 There’s no
1:32:45 entrepreneur
1:32:46 that sees,
1:32:46 that aspires
1:32:47 to be the
1:32:47 next
1:32:48 Babadur,
1:32:49 to create
1:32:49 the next
1:32:49 telegram,
1:32:51 sees this
1:32:51 and wants
1:32:52 to operate
1:32:52 in France
1:32:53 after seeing
1:32:53 this.
1:32:54 There is
1:32:55 no
1:32:56 justification
1:32:56 for this
1:32:57 arrest.
1:32:57 There’s
1:32:58 a
1:32:58 misapplication
1:32:59 of the
1:32:59 law,
1:32:59 all kinds
1:32:59 of
1:33:00 pressures,
1:33:00 all kinds
1:33:01 of
1:33:02 behavior
1:33:02 that
1:33:02 seems
1:33:03 politically
1:33:03 motivated,
1:33:04 all that
1:33:04 kind of
1:33:04 stuff,
1:33:05 all the
1:33:05 excessive
1:33:06 regulation
1:33:06 and the
1:33:07 bureaucracy,
1:33:08 a nightmare
1:33:09 for entrepreneurs
1:33:10 that dream
1:33:10 to create
1:33:11 something impactful
1:33:11 and positive
1:33:12 for the world.
1:33:13 So what do
1:33:14 you think
1:33:14 needs to
1:33:15 be fixed
1:33:16 about the
1:33:16 French
1:33:16 government,
1:33:17 the French
1:33:17 system,
1:33:18 and then
1:33:19 zooming out
1:33:19 because you
1:33:20 see similar
1:33:20 kinds of
1:33:21 things in
1:33:22 Europe that
1:33:24 could enable
1:33:24 entrepreneurs,
1:33:25 that could
1:33:27 reverse the
1:33:28 trend that we
1:33:28 seem to be
1:33:29 seeing in
1:33:30 Europe that
1:33:31 is becoming
1:33:31 less and
1:33:33 less friendly
1:33:34 to entrepreneurs.
1:33:37 What can
1:33:38 be fixed?
1:33:39 What should
1:33:40 be fixed?
1:33:42 I think
1:33:43 the European
1:33:44 society must
1:33:46 decide
1:33:48 where
1:33:50 they want
1:33:51 the ever
1:33:52 increasing
1:33:54 public
1:33:55 sector to
1:33:55 stop
1:33:56 increasing.
1:33:58 What they
1:33:58 think
1:34:00 should be
1:34:00 the right
1:34:01 size
1:34:02 of
1:34:03 government
1:34:03 because
1:34:04 today if
1:34:05 you take
1:34:05 France for
1:34:06 example which
1:34:06 is a beautiful
1:34:07 country with
1:34:08 a lot of
1:34:08 talented
1:34:10 people but
1:34:13 public
1:34:14 expenses are
1:34:15 58% of
1:34:15 the country’s
1:34:16 GDP.
1:34:18 It’s
1:34:21 maybe as
1:34:21 much or
1:34:23 more than
1:34:24 in the
1:34:25 latest stage
1:34:25 of the
1:34:26 Soviet Union.
1:34:29 So you
1:34:30 have this
1:34:31 disbalance
1:34:34 where you
1:34:34 have many
1:34:36 more people
1:34:36 people representing
1:34:37 the state
1:34:39 as opposed
1:34:39 to people
1:34:40 trying to
1:34:42 bring the
1:34:42 country’s
1:34:42 economy
1:34:43 forward by
1:34:44 creating
1:34:44 great products
1:34:45 and great
1:34:45 companies.
1:34:48 The startup
1:34:49 field and
1:34:50 my field,
1:34:50 social media
1:34:51 field,
1:34:52 has been
1:34:53 affected by
1:34:54 it immensely.
1:34:56 There was
1:34:58 one great
1:34:59 startup in
1:35:02 this realm
1:35:02 in France
1:35:03 in France in
1:35:03 the last
1:35:04 10 years.
1:35:05 It was a
1:35:06 location-based
1:35:07 social network.
1:35:08 It was
1:35:09 eventually sold
1:35:09 to Snapchat,
1:35:10 but before it
1:35:11 was not
1:35:12 sold, the
1:35:12 founder asked
1:35:14 me whether
1:35:15 he should
1:35:15 sell.
1:35:16 I told him
1:35:16 never sell.
1:35:18 You have a
1:35:18 great thing
1:35:19 going.
1:35:19 You have
1:35:20 lots of
1:35:20 users, you
1:35:21 have organic
1:35:23 traction in
1:35:23 many countries.
1:35:25 the first
1:35:26 of this
1:35:26 kind of
1:35:27 success
1:35:28 story in
1:35:29 France.
1:35:31 But then
1:35:32 he sold
1:35:32 anyway in
1:35:32 a couple
1:35:33 of weeks.
1:35:34 And later
1:35:35 I met
1:35:35 him.
1:35:36 He’s trying
1:35:36 to do a
1:35:37 new thing
1:35:37 now.
1:35:37 I met
1:35:38 him and
1:35:38 I asked
1:35:39 him, I
1:35:39 was trying
1:35:40 to understand
1:35:40 what went
1:35:41 wrong.
1:35:42 And one
1:35:42 of the
1:35:43 things he
1:35:44 told me
1:35:45 about is
1:35:46 that while
1:35:47 he was
1:35:48 trying to
1:35:50 run his
1:35:50 company,
1:35:51 competing
1:35:52 with Facebook,
1:35:53 Instagram,
1:35:55 Snapchat,
1:35:56 having all
1:35:56 this pressure
1:35:57 from investors,
1:35:58 trying to
1:35:58 hire the
1:35:59 best people
1:36:00 and persuade
1:36:01 them to
1:36:01 go to
1:36:02 Paris.
1:36:04 And he
1:36:05 did a great
1:36:06 job, by
1:36:06 the way.
1:36:06 But while
1:36:07 he was
1:36:07 trying to
1:36:08 do that,
1:36:09 he got
1:36:09 also
1:36:10 attacked
1:36:13 by some
1:36:13 silly
1:36:15 investigation,
1:36:16 again,
1:36:17 involving
1:36:18 the data
1:36:19 protection
1:36:19 issues,
1:36:22 which
1:36:23 lasted
1:36:24 forever,
1:36:24 and
1:36:25 was
1:36:25 gradually
1:36:26 sucking
1:36:26 blood of
1:36:27 his team
1:36:27 and his
1:36:28 company,
1:36:29 constant
1:36:32 interrogations,
1:36:33 disclosure
1:36:34 requests.
1:36:36 And, you
1:36:36 know, this
1:36:36 is a young
1:36:37 company.
1:36:39 It
1:36:40 significantly
1:36:42 increases the
1:36:42 level of
1:36:43 stress and
1:36:43 at some
1:36:44 point, I
1:36:46 think the
1:36:46 pressure was
1:36:47 too much.
1:36:48 He decided
1:36:49 to, I’m
1:36:49 going to
1:36:50 just sell
1:36:50 it.
1:36:53 Eventually, it
1:36:54 turned out
1:36:56 that there
1:36:56 was no
1:36:56 issue.
1:36:57 The
1:36:58 investigation
1:36:58 ended, as
1:36:59 far as I
1:36:59 understand,
1:37:00 with no
1:37:01 charges.
1:37:03 But such
1:37:03 investigations,
1:37:04 they have a
1:37:05 price, they
1:37:05 have a
1:37:06 cost.
1:37:07 And unless
1:37:10 the society
1:37:11 realizes the
1:37:13 cost of
1:37:13 projects,
1:37:15 companies,
1:37:15 of
1:37:16 startups,
1:37:17 that are
1:37:17 never
1:37:18 created or
1:37:19 are sold to
1:37:19 the United
1:37:20 States at
1:37:20 the very
1:37:21 early stage,
1:37:21 or other
1:37:22 countries,
1:37:25 resulting in
1:37:26 decreased
1:37:26 economic
1:37:27 growth,
1:37:28 things won’t
1:37:29 change.
1:37:31 I think
1:37:32 we just
1:37:33 talked to
1:37:33 a guy a
1:37:34 few days
1:37:36 ago, who
1:37:37 left France
1:37:37 and started
1:37:38 a business
1:37:38 here in
1:37:38 Dubai.
1:37:39 And one
1:37:40 of the
1:37:40 reasons he
1:37:40 had to
1:37:40 leave
1:37:42 France is
1:37:43 that the
1:37:43 government
1:37:43 started an
1:37:44 investigation
1:37:47 on his
1:37:48 company, and
1:37:48 they frozen
1:37:49 his bank
1:37:49 accounts.
1:37:50 And this
1:37:51 investigation
1:37:53 that involved
1:37:54 taxes lasted
1:37:55 for many,
1:37:55 many years,
1:37:56 I believe he
1:37:56 said eight
1:37:57 years.
1:37:58 And at the
1:37:58 end of
1:37:59 these eight
1:37:59 years,
1:38:01 the government
1:38:02 reached to
1:38:02 the conclusion
1:38:03 that there
1:38:03 was nothing
1:38:04 wrong, he’s
1:38:06 good, it’s
1:38:06 okay.
1:38:08 In the
1:38:10 meantime, his
1:38:11 corporate bank
1:38:12 accounts were
1:38:14 frozen, his
1:38:15 business died.
1:38:18 The only
1:38:19 reason why
1:38:21 he was
1:38:24 able to
1:38:25 retain sanity
1:38:26 is because he
1:38:26 moved to
1:38:27 Dubai and
1:38:27 started a new
1:38:28 company, which
1:38:29 is incredibly
1:38:29 successful, and
1:38:30 now he is
1:38:33 enriching this
1:38:34 city, which
1:38:34 we’re in
1:38:35 right now,
1:38:36 with his
1:38:37 great ideas
1:38:37 and creativity.
1:38:39 And by
1:38:39 the way,
1:38:41 having interacted
1:38:42 with him,
1:38:42 there’s like a
1:38:43 fire in his
1:38:44 eyes, the
1:38:44 human spirit
1:38:45 that fuels
1:38:46 entrepreneurship.
1:38:47 Whatever that
1:38:48 is, he doesn’t
1:38:49 have to do, he’s
1:38:49 made a lot of
1:38:50 money, he
1:38:50 probably doesn’t
1:38:51 have to do
1:38:51 anything, but
1:38:52 he still wants
1:38:53 to create, and
1:38:53 that fire is
1:38:54 what fuels
1:38:55 great nations.
1:38:56 Build, build,
1:38:57 build, build,
1:38:58 new stuff,
1:38:59 expand, all
1:39:00 of that, and
1:39:01 regulation suffocates
1:39:01 that.
1:39:02 You have to
1:39:03 cherish this
1:39:03 people.
1:39:03 Yeah.
1:39:04 But I guess
1:39:05 the French
1:39:06 public, or
1:39:07 some part of
1:39:07 the French
1:39:08 public, was
1:39:10 misled, and
1:39:10 I don’t know
1:39:11 when, perhaps
1:39:12 since the time
1:39:13 of the French
1:39:14 Revolution, to
1:39:15 believe that
1:39:17 entrepreneurs are
1:39:18 somehow their
1:39:18 enemies.
1:39:19 They’re the
1:39:20 evil, rich
1:39:22 people that
1:39:24 are the
1:39:25 cause of all
1:39:26 problems, as
1:39:27 if only you
1:39:29 could make
1:39:30 the rich
1:39:31 share their
1:39:32 ill-gotten
1:39:34 wealth with
1:39:35 the rest of
1:39:36 the population,
1:39:37 then every
1:39:38 problem will
1:39:38 be magically
1:39:39 solved.
1:39:40 In reality,
1:39:41 though, a lot
1:39:41 of these
1:39:42 people that
1:39:43 are starting
1:39:43 such companies
1:39:45 with fire in
1:39:45 their eyes
1:39:47 are sacrificing
1:39:48 their lives,
1:39:48 their livelihood,
1:39:50 they’re working
1:39:50 20 hours a
1:39:52 day, they’re
1:39:52 experiencing
1:39:54 immense stress,
1:39:55 in order
1:39:57 to fulfill
1:39:57 their vision
1:39:59 and bring
1:40:00 value and
1:40:01 good to the
1:40:02 society around
1:40:02 them.
1:40:03 They create
1:40:04 jobs, they
1:40:04 create great
1:40:05 services, they
1:40:06 create great
1:40:07 goods, they
1:40:07 make your
1:40:08 country grow,
1:40:09 they make
1:40:09 your people
1:40:10 proud.
1:40:11 You have to
1:40:11 cherish them.
1:40:14 But what does
1:40:15 the system do
1:40:15 to them?
1:40:17 It squeezes
1:40:18 them out.
1:40:20 Because, you
1:40:21 know, perhaps
1:40:21 there was
1:40:22 somebody in
1:40:25 the tax
1:40:28 authority that
1:40:29 decided to
1:40:29 advance their
1:40:31 career and
1:40:32 perhaps, you
1:40:33 know, was
1:40:34 too ambitious
1:40:34 and not too
1:40:34 smart.
1:40:35 So as a
1:40:37 result, the
1:40:37 company was
1:40:37 destroyed.
1:40:39 And now the
1:40:40 same entrepreneur,
1:40:41 by the way, who
1:40:42 we talked to, is
1:40:43 invited to come
1:40:44 back to France.
1:40:45 He’s been offered
1:40:46 really good terms,
1:40:47 he said, you’re
1:40:48 going to open
1:40:48 this new
1:40:49 venue, on
1:40:50 Champs-Élysées,
1:40:51 we’re going to
1:40:52 give you the
1:40:52 best location,
1:40:53 we’re going to
1:40:54 fund part of
1:40:56 it, tax
1:40:56 breaks.
1:40:57 And he said,
1:40:58 never, just
1:40:59 forget about
1:41:00 this, it’s
1:41:02 impossible, I’m
1:41:02 not coming back
1:41:03 to France.
1:41:05 He’s traumatized
1:41:05 by the experience,
1:41:06 and he’s
1:41:07 French, he
1:41:07 was born
1:41:09 there, he’s
1:41:09 a French
1:41:09 passport.
1:41:11 So unless
1:41:12 things like
1:41:13 this change,
1:41:15 France will, and
1:41:16 the rest of
1:41:17 Europe, will
1:41:18 keep struggling
1:41:18 with economic
1:41:20 growth, with
1:41:21 budget deficits,
1:41:23 with unemployment,
1:41:25 and all the
1:41:26 other relevant
1:41:26 social and
1:41:27 economic metrics.
1:41:28 Yeah, it’s
1:41:29 heartbreaking.
1:41:31 Me, as many
1:41:31 of these nations,
1:41:32 I appreciate the
1:41:33 historic and the
1:41:35 cultural value, and
1:41:36 I hope Europe
1:41:37 and France
1:41:38 flourish, but
1:41:39 this is not the
1:41:40 components that
1:41:41 are required for
1:41:41 flourishing.
1:41:45 Quick pause, I
1:41:45 need a bathroom
1:41:46 break.
1:41:47 All right, we
1:41:48 had some tea.
1:41:50 We’re back.
1:41:53 Let’s go back a
1:41:54 bunch of years to
1:41:54 the beginning.
1:41:55 You mentioned you
1:41:56 went to school with
1:41:57 super intensive
1:41:59 education, so I
1:41:59 thought it’d be
1:42:00 really interesting to
1:42:01 look at some of
1:42:03 the powerful aspects
1:42:04 of that education,
1:42:04 from the languages
1:42:05 to the math.
1:42:06 Can you actually
1:42:07 describe some of
1:42:08 the rigorous aspects
1:42:09 of it and what you
1:42:09 gained from it?
1:42:11 At the age of
1:42:13 11, I got the
1:42:14 opportunity to enter
1:42:15 an experimental
1:42:17 school in St.
1:42:18 Petersburg, where I
1:42:19 lived, and you
1:42:20 had to pass a
1:42:21 rigorous test to
1:42:22 get accepted.
1:42:25 The idea behind the
1:42:26 school was that if
1:42:28 you try to
1:42:31 squeeze as much
1:42:32 information as
1:42:34 possible into a
1:42:35 brain of a
1:42:38 teenager, making
1:42:39 a focus on
1:42:41 maths and
1:42:42 foreign languages,
1:42:45 then there will
1:42:46 be some changes in
1:42:47 the brain of the
1:42:49 student that will
1:42:50 allow the student
1:42:51 to understand
1:42:53 most other
1:42:54 disciplines.
1:42:56 But we had a
1:42:57 class, as a
1:42:58 result, that
1:42:59 didn’t have any
1:43:00 single focus.
1:43:01 It was very
1:43:02 widespread across
1:43:03 a lot of
1:43:03 disciplines.
1:43:05 You would have
1:43:05 four foreign
1:43:06 languages, at
1:43:07 least, including
1:43:09 Latin, English,
1:43:11 French, German.
1:43:12 In addition, you
1:43:13 can get
1:43:14 ancient Greek.
1:43:16 You would have
1:43:16 classes like
1:43:18 biochemistry or
1:43:19 psychoanalysis,
1:43:20 evolutionary
1:43:21 psychology.
1:43:24 the difference
1:43:25 of this
1:43:26 class, as
1:43:26 opposed to
1:43:27 other classes
1:43:28 in the same
1:43:28 school, which
1:43:29 was part of
1:43:29 the St.
1:43:30 Petersburg
1:43:31 State University
1:43:32 and called
1:43:33 Academic
1:43:34 Gymnasium, was
1:43:35 that unlike
1:43:36 other classes
1:43:37 which were
1:43:38 specialized in
1:43:40 some single
1:43:41 subject like
1:43:42 physics or
1:43:43 maths or
1:43:45 history, this
1:43:46 one tried to
1:43:48 get the
1:43:49 best from
1:43:50 all of the
1:43:51 specialized
1:43:52 classes and
1:43:52 bring it into
1:43:53 one curriculum.
1:43:56 since it was
1:43:57 an experimental
1:43:59 class, it
1:44:00 wasn’t
1:44:02 possible to
1:44:03 become a
1:44:03 straight A
1:44:04 student, to
1:44:05 be excellent in
1:44:05 all the
1:44:06 subjects.
1:44:07 It was
1:44:09 considered crazy
1:44:10 to even try.
1:44:10 So it’s
1:44:11 assumed nobody’s
1:44:12 able to handle
1:44:12 it, you’re just
1:44:13 pushing the
1:44:13 limits of the
1:44:14 human mind,
1:44:15 four languages
1:44:16 in parallel,
1:44:17 math,
1:44:18 evolutionary
1:44:19 psychology, just
1:44:20 overwhelming the
1:44:20 mind to see
1:44:21 what happens.
1:44:22 yes, see
1:44:22 what happens.
1:44:23 It was an
1:44:23 experiment.
1:44:25 And it was in
1:44:25 the middle of
1:44:26 the 90s,
1:44:27 remember when
1:44:28 Russia,
1:44:30 particularly its
1:44:31 educational system,
1:44:32 wasn’t regulated
1:44:33 as much as it
1:44:34 is today.
1:44:35 It was
1:44:38 in the middle
1:44:39 between the two
1:44:40 stages of the
1:44:41 Russian history,
1:44:42 the Soviet’s
1:44:43 history and the
1:44:44 modern Russian
1:44:46 history of the
1:44:47 21st century.
1:44:48 In any
1:44:50 case, I
1:44:51 learned a lot
1:44:52 from that
1:44:52 experience.
1:44:54 First of
1:44:55 all, why I
1:44:56 got into the
1:44:56 school is
1:44:58 because I
1:44:58 kept being
1:44:59 kicked out
1:44:59 from other
1:45:00 schools.
1:45:00 Challenging
1:45:01 authority.
1:45:02 I was good
1:45:02 at all
1:45:03 subjects, but
1:45:04 not behavior.
1:45:04 You know, we
1:45:05 had this
1:45:07 behavior grade
1:45:08 in the
1:45:09 Soviet Union
1:45:10 and early
1:45:10 90s.
1:45:12 perhaps they
1:45:13 even have it
1:45:13 today, I’m
1:45:13 not sure.
1:45:15 I was very
1:45:16 bad at
1:45:17 behavior, always
1:45:18 challenging the
1:45:19 teachers, always
1:45:20 pointing out their
1:45:20 mistakes.
1:45:21 By the way, that’s
1:45:22 not such a bad
1:45:22 thing, right?
1:45:23 Like, if you
1:45:23 were looking
1:45:25 back, there’s
1:45:26 some value to
1:45:26 that, right?
1:45:27 For young
1:45:28 people to, maybe
1:45:30 respectfully, but
1:45:31 challenge the
1:45:33 authority, the
1:45:34 wisdom of old,
1:45:34 right?
1:45:37 I think I
1:45:39 was very
1:45:40 lucky to
1:45:40 be able to
1:45:41 do that and
1:45:42 to be able to
1:45:43 get away with
1:45:43 it in the
1:45:44 end.
1:45:46 Because normally
1:45:47 if you keep
1:45:47 challenging
1:45:49 authorities, you
1:45:50 just get kicked
1:45:51 out of all
1:45:52 schools and
1:45:53 then you end
1:45:53 up nowhere.
1:45:55 So I
1:45:55 eventually got
1:45:56 into a school
1:45:58 where challenging
1:46:00 teachers was
1:46:00 not fully
1:46:01 okay, but it
1:46:02 was something
1:46:03 that you
1:46:03 could do and
1:46:04 then you
1:46:05 would start a
1:46:06 debate with
1:46:06 the teacher
1:46:08 and normally
1:46:09 they would
1:46:11 allow you to
1:46:12 express your
1:46:12 point of view
1:46:14 and then some
1:46:15 objective truth
1:46:16 may come out
1:46:16 of it as a
1:46:17 result.
1:46:21 But at that
1:46:22 point, I was
1:46:23 pretty bored with
1:46:23 my life.
1:46:24 You know, every
1:46:25 teenager gets to
1:46:26 a point when
1:46:27 they have this
1:46:28 sort of existential
1:46:28 crisis.
1:46:29 What’s the
1:46:30 point of life?
1:46:32 What am I
1:46:32 even doing
1:46:32 here?
1:46:35 At some
1:46:35 point I
1:46:37 decided, since
1:46:38 I have to
1:46:38 go to school
1:46:42 anyway, I
1:46:42 might as
1:46:43 well try to
1:46:44 do something
1:46:44 impossible and
1:46:45 become the
1:46:46 best students
1:46:47 and get an
1:46:49 A or what
1:46:49 we called
1:46:51 five in the
1:46:51 Russian system
1:46:54 on every
1:46:55 single subject.
1:46:57 And that
1:46:58 kept me busy
1:46:59 for a while.
1:47:02 it was
1:47:03 incredibly
1:47:04 difficult
1:47:06 because you
1:47:07 didn’t have
1:47:08 enough time.
1:47:10 Even if you
1:47:11 just studied
1:47:11 all the time,
1:47:13 not doing
1:47:14 anything else,
1:47:15 you didn’t have
1:47:16 any time left
1:47:17 to prepare
1:47:18 all the
1:47:19 homework,
1:47:20 tasks,
1:47:22 and get ready
1:47:22 for the tests.
1:47:24 so I
1:47:24 ended up
1:47:25 using the
1:47:26 breaks between
1:47:27 classes.
1:47:28 But I
1:47:29 got to
1:47:30 the result
1:47:30 I wanted
1:47:31 to get
1:47:31 to.
1:47:32 I got
1:47:33 the
1:47:34 excellent
1:47:36 mark
1:47:37 in every
1:47:37 subject.
1:47:39 And that
1:47:40 kept me happy
1:47:40 for a while.
1:47:41 What did you
1:47:42 understand about
1:47:44 an effective
1:47:45 education system
1:47:45 from studying
1:47:46 for a language
1:47:46 at the same
1:47:47 time,
1:47:48 doing such
1:47:48 a diversity?
1:47:49 like if
1:47:49 you were
1:47:50 to design
1:47:50 an education
1:47:51 system from
1:47:52 scratch for
1:47:53 young people,
1:47:54 especially in
1:47:55 the 21st
1:47:55 century,
1:47:55 what would
1:47:56 that look
1:47:56 like?
1:47:57 You posted
1:47:57 about the
1:47:58 value of
1:47:59 mathematics as
1:47:59 a foundation
1:48:00 for everything.
1:48:01 Yeah,
1:48:02 I still think
1:48:02 math is
1:48:03 essential.
1:48:04 It’s
1:48:04 something that
1:48:06 shapes your
1:48:06 brain.
1:48:08 It teaches
1:48:08 you to
1:48:10 rely on
1:48:11 your logical
1:48:11 thinking,
1:48:12 to split
1:48:13 big problems
1:48:15 into smaller
1:48:15 parts,
1:48:16 put them in
1:48:17 the right
1:48:17 sequence,
1:48:19 solve them
1:48:20 patiently,
1:48:22 trying again
1:48:23 if it doesn’t
1:48:23 work.
1:48:25 This is
1:48:25 exactly the
1:48:26 same skill
1:48:27 you need
1:48:28 in programming
1:48:30 and project
1:48:31 management
1:48:32 when you
1:48:33 start your
1:48:33 own company.
1:48:35 And it’s
1:48:36 one of the
1:48:36 few subjects
1:48:37 in school
1:48:38 which
1:48:40 encourages
1:48:41 you to
1:48:44 develop
1:48:45 your own
1:48:46 thinking as
1:48:46 opposed to
1:48:47 rely on
1:48:48 what other
1:48:49 people have
1:48:49 to say
1:48:50 and just
1:48:51 repeating
1:48:52 their
1:48:52 opinions.
1:48:54 That is
1:48:54 extremely
1:48:55 valuable.
1:48:55 And of
1:48:56 course,
1:48:56 once you’re
1:48:56 good at
1:48:57 math,
1:48:59 you can
1:49:00 apply it
1:49:02 in physics,
1:49:02 in engineering,
1:49:03 in coding.
1:49:07 And it’s
1:49:08 not surprising
1:49:09 that most
1:49:10 of the most
1:49:10 successful
1:49:11 tech founders
1:49:12 teachers and
1:49:12 CEOs
1:49:14 are very
1:49:14 good at
1:49:15 math and
1:49:15 coding
1:49:16 because
1:49:17 ultimately
1:49:18 it’s the
1:49:19 same
1:49:21 mental
1:49:24 skill
1:49:24 that you
1:49:25 rely on.
1:49:28 but back
1:49:29 back then
1:49:29 in the
1:49:29 school,
1:49:30 I realized
1:49:31 something else
1:49:32 as well.
1:49:32 It’s that
1:49:36 competition
1:49:36 is really
1:49:37 important.
1:49:38 Competition
1:49:39 is key.
1:49:41 This is what
1:49:42 motivates a
1:49:43 lot of
1:49:44 teenagers
1:49:45 when they’re
1:49:46 at school.
1:49:48 And if
1:49:49 you remove
1:49:50 competition
1:49:51 out of
1:49:51 the education
1:49:52 system,
1:49:52 you end
1:49:53 up
1:49:55 forcing
1:49:56 kids to
1:49:57 start
1:49:57 competing
1:49:58 elsewhere,
1:49:59 for example,
1:49:59 in video
1:50:00 games.
1:50:03 It’s a
1:50:03 trend you
1:50:04 see now
1:50:04 in many
1:50:04 countries,
1:50:05 including
1:50:05 in the
1:50:05 West,
1:50:07 when
1:50:08 well-meaning
1:50:08 authorities
1:50:09 or parents
1:50:09 say we
1:50:10 don’t want
1:50:11 our kids
1:50:11 to be too
1:50:11 stressed.
1:50:14 We don’t
1:50:14 want them
1:50:15 to feel
1:50:15 anxiety.
1:50:17 So let’s
1:50:17 just get
1:50:18 rid of
1:50:19 all the
1:50:20 public
1:50:20 grading
1:50:21 system,
1:50:22 all this
1:50:23 rankings
1:50:24 of who
1:50:24 won,
1:50:24 who
1:50:25 lost.
1:50:26 We don’t
1:50:26 want any
1:50:26 of that.
1:50:28 And part
1:50:28 of it is
1:50:29 justified,
1:50:30 but as
1:50:30 a result,
1:50:34 some kids
1:50:34 lose interest.
1:50:37 Yes,
1:50:38 you eliminate
1:50:39 the losers,
1:50:40 but you
1:50:40 end up
1:50:41 eliminating
1:50:41 the winners
1:50:42 as well.
1:50:44 And then
1:50:45 if you’re
1:50:46 overprotective
1:50:49 of
1:50:50 the kids
1:50:51 in that
1:50:52 age,
1:50:52 they grow
1:50:53 up,
1:50:54 graduate
1:50:55 schools,
1:50:55 the
1:50:55 universities,
1:50:56 and they
1:50:57 are still
1:50:57 not prepared
1:50:58 for real
1:50:58 life because
1:50:59 real life
1:50:59 is constant
1:51:00 competition
1:51:01 for jobs,
1:51:03 for promotions,
1:51:05 for customers,
1:51:07 and it’s
1:51:08 more brutal.
1:51:09 What you have
1:51:10 as a result
1:51:11 is high
1:51:12 suicide rates,
1:51:12 high
1:51:13 unemployment,
1:51:15 all the
1:51:16 things and
1:51:17 negative trends
1:51:17 you see
1:51:18 now,
1:51:19 in many
1:51:19 countries
1:51:20 which
1:51:20 thought
1:51:21 eliminating
1:51:22 competition
1:51:22 from the
1:51:23 education
1:51:23 system
1:51:25 was a
1:51:25 good
1:51:25 idea.
1:51:28 They still
1:51:28 persist,
1:51:29 they still
1:51:30 think competition
1:51:30 is a bad
1:51:31 thing,
1:51:31 they try to
1:51:32 eliminate
1:51:32 competition
1:51:33 from their
1:51:34 economy as
1:51:35 well to
1:51:35 an extent
1:51:37 saying we
1:51:39 gonna make
1:51:39 sure the
1:51:40 losers
1:51:43 don’t lose
1:51:45 and the
1:51:45 winners
1:51:46 don’t get
1:51:47 too much,
1:51:49 but as a
1:51:50 result they
1:51:51 make their
1:51:51 entire systems
1:51:52 less competitive,
1:51:53 their entire
1:51:54 economies,
1:51:56 some of them
1:51:56 in Europe,
1:51:58 are now
1:52:00 struggling to
1:52:01 keep up
1:52:02 with China,
1:52:03 with South
1:52:03 Korea,
1:52:05 with Singapore,
1:52:06 with Japan,
1:52:06 and other
1:52:07 places where
1:52:09 the education
1:52:10 system was
1:52:12 based on
1:52:12 ruthless
1:52:13 competition.
1:52:15 So this is a
1:52:16 hard choice any
1:52:17 civilization has
1:52:18 to make.
1:52:21 we support
1:52:21 competition
1:52:22 understanding that
1:52:23 it eventually
1:52:24 leads to
1:52:25 progress in
1:52:25 science and
1:52:27 technology and
1:52:28 abundance for
1:52:29 the society at
1:52:30 large.
1:52:32 Or we remove
1:52:33 competition thinking
1:52:34 that somehow we
1:52:36 can shield the
1:52:36 future generations
1:52:38 from the
1:52:41 stress that
1:52:41 competition
1:52:42 inevitably
1:52:43 causes.
1:52:44 Yeah, I mean
1:52:45 it’s grounded in a
1:52:46 good instinct of
1:52:47 compassion.
1:52:47 You don’t want
1:52:49 people who suck
1:52:49 at a thing
1:52:51 to feel pain,
1:52:52 but it seems like
1:52:52 struggle is a part
1:52:53 of life.
1:52:53 Either you do it
1:52:54 early or you do
1:52:55 it later.
1:52:57 And it’s true,
1:52:57 that’s such a good
1:52:58 point, that
1:53:00 competition does
1:53:01 seem to be a
1:53:02 really powerful
1:53:03 driver of skill
1:53:03 development.
1:53:05 Like you mentioned,
1:53:07 pursue mastery.
1:53:09 There’s something in
1:53:10 human nature that,
1:53:11 especially for
1:53:11 young people,
1:53:13 if you can compete
1:53:13 at a thing,
1:53:14 you’re going to be
1:53:15 really driven to
1:53:16 get good at
1:53:16 that thing.
1:53:17 If you can
1:53:17 direct that in
1:53:18 the education
1:53:18 system, as
1:53:19 China does,
1:53:21 as many nations
1:53:21 like you mentioned
1:53:23 do, then you’re
1:53:23 going to develop a
1:53:24 lot of brilliant
1:53:26 people, resilient
1:53:27 people, people that
1:53:27 are ready to
1:53:28 create epic shit
1:53:29 in the world.
1:53:31 I think there is a
1:53:31 lot of evidence
1:53:32 proving that we are
1:53:33 biologically wired
1:53:36 to compete and
1:53:38 establish our
1:53:39 understanding of
1:53:41 what our
1:53:43 qualities are and
1:53:44 talents are in
1:53:46 relation to other
1:53:47 people around us.
1:53:49 And this is one of
1:53:50 the ways society
1:53:51 self-regulates.
1:53:52 Speaking of
1:53:54 competition, your
1:53:55 brother, Nikolai,
1:53:57 he’s a
1:53:57 mathematician,
1:53:58 programmer,
1:53:59 expert in
1:53:59 cryptography.
1:54:01 He has won the
1:54:02 IMO,
1:54:03 International
1:54:04 Mathematics
1:54:04 Olympiad.
1:54:05 He got gold
1:54:06 medal three times,
1:54:08 ICPC
1:54:09 programming two
1:54:11 times, has two
1:54:11 PhDs in
1:54:13 Mathematics, and
1:54:14 you have worked
1:54:14 together for many
1:54:16 years creating
1:54:17 incredible technologies
1:54:18 that we’ve been
1:54:18 talking about.
1:54:20 So what have you
1:54:21 learned about
1:54:23 just life from
1:54:23 your brother?
1:54:24 Well, first of
1:54:26 all, I must say I
1:54:27 learned pretty much
1:54:29 everything from my
1:54:30 brother, everything
1:54:31 I know, because
1:54:32 when we were used
1:54:35 to be kids, we
1:54:36 slept in the same
1:54:37 bedroom.
1:54:39 like pets a few
1:54:39 feet away from
1:54:40 each other.
1:54:44 And I kept
1:54:45 bugging him with
1:54:45 questions.
1:54:47 I would ask him
1:54:48 about dinosaurs
1:54:50 and galaxies and
1:54:52 black holes and
1:54:53 Neanderthals.
1:54:55 Everything I could
1:54:56 think of.
1:54:58 And he was my
1:54:59 Wikipedia back in
1:55:01 the time when we
1:55:02 didn’t have internet
1:55:02 access.
1:55:03 He’s a unique
1:55:05 prodigy kid,
1:55:06 probably one of a
1:55:07 billion.
1:55:08 He started reading
1:55:09 at the age of
1:55:11 three, I think, and
1:55:13 he pretty fast got
1:55:14 so advanced in
1:55:16 maths that by the
1:55:16 age of six he
1:55:18 could already read
1:55:19 really sophisticated
1:55:20 books on astronomy.
1:55:23 sometimes when he did
1:55:25 it in public places
1:55:27 like buses or
1:55:30 metro, my mom was
1:55:33 criticized by people
1:55:33 who were witnessing
1:55:34 it.
1:55:35 They would tell her,
1:55:36 why are you mocking
1:55:38 your own kid with
1:55:39 this serious book?
1:55:41 It’s obvious the kid
1:55:42 can’t understand
1:55:43 everything there.
1:55:44 It’s too complicated.
1:55:46 Even we don’t understand
1:55:46 anything there.
1:55:47 There’s some formulas.
1:55:50 And he was already
1:55:53 sucking in this
1:55:54 knowledge.
1:55:57 He just has this
1:55:58 thirst for
1:55:59 information.
1:56:02 So he was the
1:56:03 source of all
1:56:06 kind of great
1:56:08 facts, useful
1:56:09 things, inspiring
1:56:10 things.
1:56:12 He taught me pretty
1:56:13 much everything I
1:56:13 know.
1:56:15 At the same time,
1:56:17 he’s incredibly
1:56:17 modest.
1:56:20 and kind.
1:56:21 And this is
1:56:23 something I think
1:56:24 a lot of
1:56:26 people
1:56:28 that think
1:56:28 they’re smart
1:56:29 but not generally
1:56:30 intelligent
1:56:31 lack.
1:56:34 More often than
1:56:35 not, people who
1:56:36 are truly
1:56:37 intelligent, they’re
1:56:38 also kind
1:56:39 and compassionate.
1:56:41 And he is that.
1:56:42 Definitely.
1:56:44 You actually have
1:56:45 been staying out of
1:56:46 the public eye for
1:56:47 the most part.
1:56:48 You’ve done very few
1:56:49 interviews, you’re
1:56:50 pretty low-key, but
1:56:51 your brother is in
1:56:52 another level.
1:56:53 He’s been staying out
1:56:54 of the public eye.
1:56:55 What’s behind that?
1:56:56 Part of it is his
1:56:57 natural modesty.
1:57:01 He doesn’t need to
1:57:01 do it.
1:57:05 He doesn’t feel this
1:57:07 urge to show off,
1:57:09 brag about stuff.
1:57:12 I tried to avoid it
1:57:12 and I tried to avoid it
1:57:13 as well, but at a
1:57:14 certain point I realized
1:57:16 that me being
1:57:18 too private, too
1:57:19 secretive
1:57:20 becomes a liability
1:57:23 because it creates
1:57:23 this void, this
1:57:24 emptiness that
1:57:28 people and
1:57:29 organizations that
1:57:30 don’t like Telegram
1:57:31 very much
1:57:32 are willing to
1:57:32 fill
1:57:34 with inaccurate
1:57:35 information
1:57:35 and they’re
1:57:36 willing to
1:57:37 spread the
1:57:38 narratives about
1:57:38 Telegram,
1:57:40 which can
1:57:41 result in
1:57:44 strange
1:57:45 situations,
1:57:47 some of
1:57:47 which we
1:57:49 discussed
1:57:49 earlier.
1:57:52 For example,
1:57:52 this French
1:57:53 investigation.
1:57:54 Yeah, I’ve
1:57:55 gotten to know you
1:57:56 more and more
1:57:56 and there’s
1:57:58 a deep
1:57:58 integrity
1:58:00 to you that
1:58:01 I think is
1:58:01 good to show
1:58:02 to the world.
1:58:03 There’s a lot
1:58:04 of attack
1:58:04 vectors on
1:58:05 user privacy
1:58:06 and I think
1:58:06 the most
1:58:07 important,
1:58:07 the last
1:58:09 wall of
1:58:10 protection is
1:58:11 the actual
1:58:11 people that
1:58:12 are running
1:58:12 the company.
1:58:13 So it’s
1:58:13 important to
1:58:14 some degree
1:58:14 for you to
1:58:15 be out there
1:58:15 to showing
1:58:16 your true
1:58:16 self.
1:58:18 So we
1:58:18 should say
1:58:18 that also
1:58:19 you didn’t
1:58:19 mention,
1:58:20 but you’re
1:58:21 a programmer
1:58:22 from an
1:58:23 early age.
1:58:24 You started
1:58:24 coding at
1:58:25 10.
1:58:26 First things
1:58:26 you built
1:58:27 or a
1:58:28 video game
1:58:29 at 11
1:58:30 and eventually
1:58:31 10 years
1:58:31 later,
1:58:32 21,
1:58:33 you programmed
1:58:33 the initial
1:58:34 versions of
1:58:34 VK
1:58:35 single-handedly.
1:58:36 Can you talk
1:58:37 to me about
1:58:37 your programming
1:58:38 journey that
1:58:39 led to the
1:58:39 creation of
1:58:39 VK?
1:58:40 What was
1:58:41 the VK
1:58:41 stack?
1:58:43 Was it
1:58:43 PHP
1:58:44 mostly?
1:58:45 How did
1:58:45 you figure
1:58:46 out how to
1:58:46 program
1:58:47 websites?
1:58:48 All of
1:58:48 that.
1:58:49 I wasn’t
1:58:50 interested in
1:58:50 programming
1:58:51 websites at
1:58:51 first.
1:58:51 I didn’t
1:58:52 even have
1:58:53 access to
1:58:54 the internet
1:58:54 when I was
1:58:55 10 years
1:58:55 old.
1:58:57 But I
1:58:57 liked video
1:58:58 games.
1:58:59 I didn’t
1:58:59 have enough
1:59:00 of them.
1:59:01 And the
1:59:02 scarcity
1:59:03 forced me
1:59:05 to start
1:59:05 building
1:59:07 more computer
1:59:07 games just
1:59:08 to play
1:59:08 myself.
1:59:11 It’s actually
1:59:12 an interesting
1:59:13 thing that
1:59:15 we sometimes
1:59:16 don’t realize
1:59:16 it, but
1:59:17 scarcity leads
1:59:18 to creativity.
1:59:20 and one
1:59:20 one of the
1:59:20 reasons you
1:59:21 have so
1:59:22 many people
1:59:22 who love
1:59:24 to code
1:59:26 coming from
1:59:26 the Soviet
1:59:27 Union or
1:59:28 other places
1:59:29 which didn’t
1:59:31 have much
1:59:31 access to
1:59:32 modern technology
1:59:34 and more
1:59:34 importantly,
1:59:35 modern
1:59:35 entertainment
1:59:37 is that
1:59:40 perhaps we
1:59:41 were not
1:59:41 so much
1:59:42 distracted
1:59:43 by all
1:59:43 this
1:59:44 abundance
1:59:45 of
1:59:45 different
1:59:46 entertainment
1:59:47 options,
1:59:48 which is not
1:59:48 to say it’s
1:59:49 bad to have
1:59:50 those options.
1:59:51 It’s just
1:59:53 a fact that we
1:59:54 sometimes don’t
1:59:54 appreciate.
1:59:56 so I started
1:59:56 to build
1:59:57 computer games.
2:00:00 My brother
2:00:00 would sometimes
2:00:01 guide me.
2:00:01 For example,
2:00:02 I would create
2:00:04 a turn-based
2:00:05 strategy.
2:00:08 Of course,
2:00:08 two-dimensional,
2:00:09 backhand three-dimensional
2:00:10 is too much
2:00:11 for me.
2:00:13 But it
2:00:15 wasn’t as
2:00:17 slick in
2:00:18 terms of
2:00:19 the scrolling
2:00:20 FPS,
2:00:21 frames per
2:00:22 second
2:00:24 parameter.
2:00:25 and I asked
2:00:26 my brother
2:00:26 how to
2:00:27 optimize it.
2:00:28 He would
2:00:29 guide me.
2:00:30 And this
2:00:30 kind of
2:00:33 learning
2:00:34 and
2:00:37 training
2:00:37 really
2:00:39 shaped my
2:00:40 coding skills
2:00:41 when I was
2:00:41 younger.
2:00:43 Then I started
2:00:44 to create
2:00:44 video games
2:00:45 for my
2:00:45 classmates.
2:00:47 When we
2:00:48 played,
2:00:49 for example,
2:00:50 tic-tac-toe
2:00:50 on an infinite
2:00:51 field in my
2:00:53 class during
2:00:53 the breaks,
2:00:54 you know,
2:00:55 not tic-tac-toe,
2:00:55 the three
2:00:56 in a row.
2:00:57 This is
2:00:58 five in a row
2:00:59 in an infinite
2:00:59 field.
2:01:01 This is a much
2:01:01 more interesting
2:01:02 game.
2:01:04 And it gets
2:01:05 quite complicated
2:01:06 if you keep
2:01:06 playing it.
2:01:08 My classmates
2:01:09 used to love
2:01:09 it.
2:01:10 And some of
2:01:10 my classmates
2:01:11 were really
2:01:11 smart,
2:01:11 you know,
2:01:12 champions
2:01:13 of math
2:01:14 olympiads,
2:01:15 sons and
2:01:16 daughters of
2:01:17 professors at
2:01:17 the university.
2:01:18 And I
2:01:19 decided,
2:01:19 no,
2:01:19 I want to
2:01:20 win every
2:01:20 single time.
2:01:22 I don’t
2:01:22 want to lose
2:01:23 even a single
2:01:23 time.
2:01:24 so how
2:01:24 do I
2:01:24 win?
2:01:25 I need
2:01:25 to practice
2:01:25 more.
2:01:26 But how
2:01:27 do I
2:01:27 practice
2:01:27 more?
2:01:28 I need
2:01:28 an opponent
2:01:29 stronger than
2:01:29 myself.
2:01:30 So I
2:01:31 coded
2:01:32 this game
2:01:33 so that I
2:01:33 would play
2:01:33 against the
2:01:34 computer.
2:01:36 and the
2:01:36 computer
2:01:37 would calculate
2:01:38 I think
2:01:39 four moves
2:01:40 in advance
2:01:42 to choose
2:01:43 the optimal
2:01:44 strategy.
2:01:46 That wasn’t
2:01:47 enough.
2:01:47 Four moves
2:01:48 in advance
2:01:48 I would
2:01:49 still win
2:01:49 over it.
2:01:50 If I
2:01:51 tried to
2:01:51 calculate
2:01:52 five or
2:01:53 six it
2:01:53 was too
2:01:54 slow so I
2:01:54 asked my
2:01:55 brother to
2:01:55 help me
2:01:55 out here.
2:01:57 So he
2:01:57 made this
2:01:57 algorithm.
2:02:01 eventually I
2:02:04 trained myself
2:02:05 to win
2:02:05 every single
2:02:06 time.
2:02:07 Even with
2:02:07 the computer
2:02:08 back then.
2:02:10 We didn’t
2:02:10 have
2:02:12 modern
2:02:13 CPUs and
2:02:14 I could
2:02:15 still retain
2:02:15 some self
2:02:16 confidence.
2:02:17 We’d go
2:02:17 back to
2:02:18 school during
2:02:18 breaks,
2:02:20 play with
2:02:20 my classmates
2:02:22 and soon
2:02:23 people started
2:02:24 to lose
2:02:24 interest.
2:02:25 None of my
2:02:26 classmates wanted
2:02:26 to play
2:02:27 this game
2:02:27 anymore.
2:02:28 I killed
2:02:28 the game.
2:02:32 So after
2:02:34 that when
2:02:36 I got
2:02:36 into the
2:02:37 St. Petersburg
2:02:38 State University
2:02:41 it was quite
2:02:42 boring just
2:02:42 to study
2:02:43 because it
2:02:43 was too
2:02:44 easy.
2:02:45 So I
2:02:45 thought what
2:02:45 can I do
2:02:46 there?
2:02:47 I created
2:02:47 a website
2:02:48 for the
2:02:49 students of
2:02:50 my faculty
2:02:50 first.
2:02:54 I organized
2:02:55 the creation
2:02:56 of
2:02:56 digital
2:02:58 answers
2:02:59 to all
2:03:00 exams
2:03:01 and
2:03:02 digitalized
2:03:02 version of
2:03:03 all lectures
2:03:04 which was
2:03:05 something
2:03:05 very
2:03:06 unique
2:03:07 back then.
2:03:07 Remember
2:03:08 it was
2:03:08 25 years
2:03:09 ago.
2:03:12 I would
2:03:12 put together
2:03:13 a website
2:03:15 where I
2:03:16 would
2:03:18 publish
2:03:18 all these
2:03:18 materials
2:03:19 and pretty
2:03:20 soon it
2:03:20 became
2:03:21 super
2:03:21 popular.
2:03:23 I opened
2:03:23 a discussion
2:03:24 forum there
2:03:25 in a few
2:03:26 years I
2:03:26 expanded
2:03:28 to the
2:03:29 university
2:03:31 with all
2:03:31 of its
2:03:32 other
2:03:32 departments
2:03:33 and then
2:03:33 to other
2:03:34 universities.
2:03:35 We ended
2:03:36 up having
2:03:38 tens of
2:03:39 thousands of
2:03:39 users
2:03:41 just as a
2:03:42 students
2:03:42 portal.
2:03:44 We had
2:03:44 all kinds
2:03:45 of social
2:03:46 features there,
2:03:47 friends lists,
2:03:48 photo albums,
2:03:49 profiles,
2:03:50 blogs,
2:03:51 all of
2:03:52 it was
2:03:53 quite
2:03:53 successful
2:03:55 and after
2:03:56 I graduated
2:03:57 the university
2:03:58 one of
2:03:59 my
2:04:00 ex-classmates
2:04:01 from the
2:04:01 school
2:04:03 reached out
2:04:03 to me
2:04:04 after reading
2:04:05 about my
2:04:06 successes in
2:04:07 a newspaper,
2:04:08 the main
2:04:09 business newspaper
2:04:10 of St.
2:04:10 Petersburg
2:04:11 and he
2:04:11 asked me,
2:04:12 are you
2:04:12 trying to
2:04:13 build a
2:04:14 Russian
2:04:14 Facebook?
2:04:16 I said,
2:04:17 I’m not
2:04:17 sure,
2:04:18 what’s
2:04:18 Facebook?
2:04:20 So we
2:04:21 met,
2:04:23 since he
2:04:24 graduated
2:04:24 at American
2:04:25 University
2:04:25 two years
2:04:26 before that,
2:04:26 he showed
2:04:27 me Facebook.
2:04:29 I thought,
2:04:29 well,
2:04:31 I can already
2:04:31 have all
2:04:32 of this
2:04:32 technology,
2:04:34 but it’s
2:04:35 valuable to
2:04:36 know which
2:04:37 elements I
2:04:38 should get
2:04:40 rid of in
2:04:40 order to
2:04:41 scale this
2:04:43 thing and
2:04:43 have millions
2:04:44 of users.
2:04:47 this is
2:04:48 also
2:04:48 something
2:04:49 people
2:04:49 don’t
2:04:49 appreciate
2:04:49 that
2:04:51 sometimes
2:04:51 in order
2:04:52 to move
2:04:53 forward and
2:04:54 have more
2:04:55 success,
2:04:55 you have
2:04:57 to get
2:04:57 rid of
2:04:57 things,
2:04:58 including
2:04:59 technology.
2:04:59 Getting
2:05:00 rid of
2:05:00 features is
2:05:01 super
2:05:01 important.
2:05:02 Simplify
2:05:03 both for
2:05:04 scaling and
2:05:04 for making
2:05:07 it amenable
2:05:09 to just
2:05:10 growing the
2:05:10 user base
2:05:10 where people
2:05:11 get it
2:05:11 immediately.
2:05:13 Yes.
2:05:14 Otherwise,
2:05:14 it’s just
2:05:15 too complicated
2:05:15 for the
2:05:16 new user.
2:05:16 The existing
2:05:17 users will
2:05:18 be happy,
2:05:18 they’ll be
2:05:19 praising you,
2:05:20 they’ll be
2:05:21 asking you
2:05:21 to add
2:05:22 more stuff
2:05:23 to make
2:05:23 it even
2:05:23 more
2:05:24 complicated,
2:05:25 so it’s
2:05:26 easy to
2:05:29 lose track
2:05:32 and get
2:05:32 disoriented
2:05:35 if you’re
2:05:36 only relying
2:05:36 on the
2:05:37 feedback of
2:05:37 existing
2:05:38 users.
2:05:40 So as a
2:05:40 result,
2:05:41 I started
2:05:41 I started
2:05:42 the website
2:05:43 called
2:05:44 vkontakte
2:05:45 or vk.
2:05:46 It means
2:05:47 in touch
2:05:47 in Russian.
2:05:48 Initially,
2:05:49 to solve
2:05:49 my own
2:05:50 personal
2:05:50 problem,
2:05:52 I graduated
2:05:53 the university
2:05:54 that same
2:05:54 year and
2:05:54 I wanted
2:05:55 to be in
2:05:55 touch,
2:05:56 remain in
2:05:57 touch with
2:05:58 my ex-classmen
2:05:58 from the
2:06:00 university and
2:06:00 the other
2:06:01 fellow students.
2:06:03 And of
2:06:03 course,
2:06:04 as a 20-year-old,
2:06:05 I wanted to
2:06:05 meet other
2:06:05 people,
2:06:06 including
2:06:07 good-looking
2:06:07 girls.
2:06:09 So I
2:06:09 started to
2:06:10 build it
2:06:10 from scratch.
2:06:12 For that
2:06:12 one, I
2:06:13 thought I’m
2:06:13 not going
2:06:14 to use
2:06:15 any third
2:06:15 party
2:06:17 libraries,
2:06:19 modules,
2:06:21 because I
2:06:22 want to
2:06:22 make it as
2:06:23 efficient as
2:06:23 possible.
2:06:24 I was
2:06:25 obsessing over
2:06:25 every line
2:06:26 of code.
2:06:28 But then
2:06:29 how do you
2:06:29 start something
2:06:30 that large?
2:06:31 I didn’t
2:06:32 have any
2:06:33 prior experience
2:06:35 of quitting
2:06:35 a project
2:06:36 of that
2:06:36 scale,
2:06:38 which would
2:06:39 involve
2:06:39 everything.
2:06:42 Before,
2:06:42 I would
2:06:44 reuse some
2:06:45 existing
2:06:46 solutions.
2:06:46 Here,
2:06:47 I wanted
2:06:47 to build
2:06:48 from scratch,
2:06:48 so I
2:06:49 called my
2:06:49 brother.
2:06:51 He was
2:06:52 a postdoc
2:06:53 student in
2:06:55 Germany at
2:06:55 that time,
2:06:56 in the
2:06:57 Max Planck
2:06:58 University,
2:06:58 and I
2:06:59 asked him,
2:07:01 what should
2:07:01 I start
2:07:01 from?
2:07:03 And he
2:07:04 told me,
2:07:07 just build
2:07:09 a module
2:07:10 to authorize
2:07:11 users.
2:07:14 Not just
2:07:14 to log in,
2:07:15 you know,
2:07:16 not even to
2:07:16 sign up,
2:07:17 just to
2:07:17 log in.
2:07:20 Because you
2:07:21 can pre-populate
2:07:21 the database
2:07:23 with credentials
2:07:23 and emails
2:07:24 and passwords,
2:07:25 it doesn’t
2:07:25 really matter.
2:07:26 But once you
2:07:27 see that you
2:07:29 can type in
2:07:30 your password
2:07:31 an email
2:07:32 and you’re
2:07:32 in and
2:07:33 it tells
2:07:34 you hello
2:07:35 using your
2:07:36 name,
2:07:38 then you
2:07:39 will
2:07:41 have a
2:07:41 clear
2:07:42 understanding
2:07:42 where to
2:07:43 go from
2:07:43 there.
2:07:44 Yeah,
2:07:45 I mean,
2:07:46 that’s true.
2:07:47 That’s one
2:07:47 of the best
2:07:48 advice I’ve
2:07:48 ever got in
2:07:49 my life.
2:07:50 It worked
2:07:50 perfectly,
2:07:51 by the way.
2:07:52 I started
2:07:52 to build
2:07:53 it and
2:07:53 before I
2:07:54 knew it,
2:07:54 I would
2:07:54 have
2:07:56 there on
2:07:57 the website
2:07:58 photo albums,
2:08:00 private messages,
2:08:01 this guest
2:08:01 book we used
2:08:02 to call
2:08:02 The Wall
2:08:04 back on
2:08:04 Ikea and
2:08:05 I guess in
2:08:06 the early
2:08:06 days of
2:08:07 Facebook.
2:08:09 We’d
2:08:10 end up
2:08:10 building
2:08:11 something even
2:08:12 more sophisticated
2:08:13 than Facebook
2:08:14 at the time
2:08:14 with more
2:08:15 features.
2:08:17 I had a
2:08:17 girlfriend at
2:08:18 the time
2:08:18 asked her,
2:08:19 we need to
2:08:20 somehow come
2:08:21 up with a
2:08:23 database of
2:08:24 all Russian
2:08:26 schools and
2:08:27 universities and
2:08:28 departments and
2:08:29 subdivisions.
2:08:31 She did a
2:08:31 great job
2:08:32 trying to
2:08:33 source all
2:08:34 this information
2:08:34 online or
2:08:36 sometimes writing
2:08:37 emails to
2:08:37 universities saying
2:08:39 which departments
2:08:39 you have
2:08:40 exactly at
2:08:41 this point.
2:08:42 We need to
2:08:43 know or
2:08:44 reaching out to
2:08:45 the Department
2:08:45 of Education
2:08:47 both in
2:08:48 Russia and
2:08:48 then in
2:08:49 Ukraine and
2:08:51 then eventually
2:08:52 in Belarus and
2:08:52 in Kazakhstan
2:08:53 and other
2:08:54 countries where
2:08:55 VK ended up
2:08:57 to be the
2:08:58 largest and
2:08:58 most popular
2:08:59 social network.
2:09:01 So we did a
2:09:02 few things that
2:09:04 were quite
2:09:05 unique at the
2:09:06 time and
2:09:07 for the first
2:09:09 almost a
2:09:11 year I was
2:09:12 the single
2:09:13 employee of
2:09:14 the company.
2:09:15 I was the
2:09:16 back-end
2:09:16 engineer, the
2:09:17 front-end
2:09:18 engineer, the
2:09:20 designer, I
2:09:22 was the
2:09:23 customer support
2:09:25 officer, I
2:09:26 was the
2:09:27 marketing guy as
2:09:29 well, coming
2:09:30 up with all the
2:09:31 warnings and
2:09:32 announcements,
2:09:34 coming up with
2:09:36 competitions to
2:09:37 promote VK,
2:09:38 which worked
2:09:39 quite well.
2:09:40 that was an
2:09:40 incredible
2:09:42 experience that
2:09:44 gave me
2:09:45 knowledge of
2:09:47 every aspect
2:09:48 of a
2:09:49 social
2:09:50 networking
2:09:51 platform.
2:09:52 Also
2:09:52 understanding of
2:09:53 how much a
2:09:53 single person
2:09:54 can do.
2:09:55 exactly.
2:09:55 It’s one of
2:09:57 the reasons
2:09:57 why I’d
2:09:58 like to
2:09:58 think I’m
2:09:59 an efficient
2:10:00 project
2:10:04 manager and
2:10:05 product manager
2:10:05 inside Telegram
2:10:07 because I
2:10:08 will not
2:10:11 take anything
2:10:12 but ambitious
2:10:14 deadlines from
2:10:14 my team
2:10:15 members.
2:10:17 If somebody
2:10:19 gives me,
2:10:20 oh, I need
2:10:20 three weeks to
2:10:21 do that, I
2:10:22 would reply,
2:10:23 oh, I built
2:10:23 the first version
2:10:24 of VK in
2:10:24 just two
2:10:25 weeks, why
2:10:25 would you
2:10:26 need three
2:10:26 weeks?
2:10:28 It seems
2:10:29 like something
2:10:30 you could
2:10:32 make real in
2:10:33 just three
2:10:33 days.
2:10:34 Three weeks,
2:10:35 what are you
2:10:36 going to do
2:10:36 the rest of
2:10:37 the three
2:10:37 weeks apart
2:10:38 from the
2:10:38 three days?
2:10:41 And, you
2:10:41 know, the
2:10:41 team knows
2:10:43 me and
2:10:44 that’s why
2:10:45 we are
2:10:46 able today
2:10:46 at Telegram
2:10:47 to move
2:10:48 at a very
2:10:49 good pace
2:10:50 of innovation
2:10:52 every month
2:10:52 we’re
2:10:53 pushing
2:10:55 several
2:10:55 meaningful
2:10:56 features
2:10:58 I think
2:10:58 out
2:10:59 competing
2:10:59 everybody
2:11:00 else
2:11:00 in this
2:11:02 industry
2:11:03 in terms
2:11:04 of what
2:11:05 you can
2:11:05 do
2:11:06 within a
2:11:07 short
2:11:08 time frame.
2:11:08 So, yes,
2:11:09 that experience
2:11:10 was
2:11:11 invaluable.
2:11:14 As for
2:11:15 the stack,
2:11:16 I started
2:11:18 from PHP
2:11:19 and MySQL,
2:11:20 Debian
2:11:20 Linux,
2:11:23 but very
2:11:24 soon I
2:11:26 realized I
2:11:26 need to
2:11:27 optimize this.
2:11:28 I started
2:11:29 using Memcached.
2:11:30 Apache
2:11:32 servers were
2:11:32 not enough
2:11:32 anymore.
2:11:34 We had to
2:11:34 set up
2:11:35 Engine X
2:11:36 and my
2:11:37 brother was
2:11:38 still living
2:11:39 in Germany,
2:11:39 so he
2:11:40 couldn’t help
2:11:40 me much
2:11:41 for the
2:11:41 first year
2:11:41 of
2:11:42 building
2:11:42 DK.
2:11:43 Sometimes
2:11:44 I would
2:11:45 manage to
2:11:45 get through
2:11:46 to him
2:11:47 through a
2:11:47 call.
2:11:48 I would
2:11:48 use an
2:11:49 old-school
2:11:49 phone to
2:11:50 call him
2:11:51 with wires.
2:11:53 I said,
2:11:53 what do I
2:11:53 do?
2:11:54 How do I
2:11:54 install this
2:11:55 thing called
2:11:55 Engine X?
2:11:56 I’m not a
2:11:56 Linux guy.
2:11:59 If he
2:12:00 felt
2:12:01 particularly
2:12:02 kind that
2:12:03 day and
2:12:03 not too
2:12:03 busy,
2:12:04 he would
2:12:04 show me
2:12:04 the way
2:12:05 to do
2:12:05 it or
2:12:06 set it
2:12:06 up
2:12:06 himself.
2:12:08 But for
2:12:09 the most
2:12:09 part,
2:12:10 I had to
2:12:10 rely on
2:12:11 just
2:12:11 myself.
2:12:15 Having
2:12:15 him
2:12:16 there
2:12:16 helped
2:12:18 when we
2:12:19 started to
2:12:20 grow fast
2:12:20 and started
2:12:20 to scale
2:12:21 it.
2:12:23 Because
2:12:24 at first
2:12:26 you realize
2:12:27 one server
2:12:27 is not
2:12:28 enough.
2:12:28 I need
2:12:29 to buy
2:12:29 another
2:12:29 one.
2:12:31 Then
2:12:31 another
2:12:31 one.
2:12:32 And
2:12:32 another
2:12:32 one.
2:12:33 The
2:12:33 database
2:12:34 should
2:12:34 be
2:12:36 in a
2:12:36 different
2:12:36 server.
2:12:37 Then you
2:12:38 have to
2:12:38 split the
2:12:39 database
2:12:39 into
2:12:39 tables.
2:12:40 then you
2:12:41 have to
2:12:41 come up
2:12:42 with a
2:12:43 way to
2:12:44 chart the
2:12:44 tables
2:12:45 using some
2:12:46 criteria that
2:12:47 would make
2:12:47 sense that
2:12:48 wouldn’t break
2:12:48 your user
2:12:49 experience.
2:12:50 When we
2:12:51 got to
2:12:51 over a
2:12:52 million users
2:12:54 and beyond
2:12:54 a dozen
2:12:55 of servers,
2:12:56 surviving
2:12:56 without the
2:12:57 input from
2:12:58 my brother
2:12:59 in terms of
2:13:00 taking care
2:13:01 of the
2:13:02 scaling aspect
2:13:02 of it
2:13:03 became
2:13:03 impossible.
2:13:05 I remember
2:13:06 asking him
2:13:07 to come
2:13:07 back.
2:13:08 He
2:13:08 said,
2:13:09 you need
2:13:09 to help
2:13:09 me with
2:13:10 this thing.
2:13:10 It’s
2:13:11 starting to
2:13:11 be really
2:13:11 big.
2:13:13 What was
2:13:14 worse is
2:13:16 that since
2:13:16 we became
2:13:17 popular,
2:13:18 somebody
2:13:19 started to
2:13:20 do
2:13:20 DDoS
2:13:21 attacks on
2:13:21 us.
2:13:22 This
2:13:23 always
2:13:23 happens.
2:13:24 Right.
2:13:25 And then
2:13:25 we had
2:13:26 people that
2:13:27 wanted to
2:13:27 buy a
2:13:28 share of
2:13:29 VK.
2:13:30 And
2:13:31 interestingly,
2:13:32 every time
2:13:33 we had a
2:13:33 negotiation
2:13:34 day,
2:13:35 they DDoS
2:13:36 attacks
2:13:36 intensified.
2:13:41 So we
2:13:41 had to
2:13:41 come up
2:13:42 with a
2:13:43 way to
2:13:44 fight it.
2:13:46 I remember
2:13:46 having
2:13:49 many
2:13:49 sleepless
2:13:50 nights trying
2:13:51 to figure it
2:13:51 out.
2:13:52 So that
2:13:52 was your
2:13:53 introduction to
2:13:53 all kinds
2:13:54 of bad
2:13:54 actors.
2:13:56 DDoS,
2:13:58 business.
2:13:59 Then later
2:14:00 you’d find
2:14:00 out there’s
2:14:01 such a
2:14:01 thing called
2:14:02 politics.
2:14:03 And then
2:14:03 later
2:14:05 geopolitics.
2:14:05 But this
2:14:06 is the
2:14:06 initial
2:14:07 stages.
2:14:10 It’s not
2:14:11 just about
2:14:11 creating cool
2:14:12 stuff.
2:14:13 It’s having
2:14:13 to deal
2:14:14 with,
2:14:15 as you
2:14:15 now have
2:14:16 to deal
2:14:16 with the
2:14:16 telegram,
2:14:18 is seas
2:14:18 of bad
2:14:19 actors trying
2:14:20 to test
2:14:21 the limits
2:14:21 of the
2:14:22 system,
2:14:22 trying to
2:14:23 break the
2:14:23 system.
2:14:24 Unfortunately,
2:14:26 if we
2:14:26 didn’t
2:14:27 have bad
2:14:28 actors and
2:14:28 pressure,
2:14:30 it would
2:14:30 be the
2:14:31 best job
2:14:31 ever.
2:14:32 You just
2:14:33 get to
2:14:33 create.
2:14:34 Yeah.
2:14:35 Yeah.
2:14:36 And so
2:14:37 the help
2:14:38 from your
2:14:38 brother,
2:14:39 like you
2:14:39 mentioned,
2:14:40 NGINX and
2:14:40 charting the
2:14:41 tables,
2:14:42 some of
2:14:43 the scaling
2:14:45 issue is
2:14:46 algorithmic in
2:14:46 nature.
2:14:46 It’s almost
2:14:47 like theoretical
2:14:48 computer science.
2:14:49 It’s not
2:14:50 just about
2:14:50 buying more
2:14:51 computers,
2:14:52 figuring out
2:14:54 how to
2:14:56 algorithmically
2:14:58 make everything
2:14:59 work extremely
2:14:59 fast.
2:15:00 So some
2:15:00 of it is
2:15:01 mathematics.
2:15:02 Some of it
2:15:02 is pure
2:15:03 engineering,
2:15:04 but some
2:15:04 of it is
2:15:05 mathematics.
2:15:06 Yeah.
2:15:07 So at that
2:15:07 stage, I
2:15:08 could do
2:15:08 the basic
2:15:09 stuff.
2:15:10 I could
2:15:11 understand how
2:15:13 I implement
2:15:15 scalability into
2:15:15 the code
2:15:16 base, how I
2:15:17 chart my
2:15:19 tables in
2:15:20 the database
2:15:21 where I
2:15:22 included
2:15:23 memcached
2:15:25 instead of
2:15:25 direct
2:15:28 requests to
2:15:28 the database.
2:15:30 That was
2:15:31 quite easy
2:15:32 because it
2:15:32 was still
2:15:34 PHP back
2:15:35 in the day.
2:15:36 When my
2:15:37 brother got
2:15:40 back from
2:15:40 Germany
2:15:42 somewhere around
2:15:44 2008, I
2:15:45 asked him,
2:15:45 can we make
2:15:46 it even more
2:15:46 efficient?
2:15:47 Can we
2:15:47 make it
2:15:49 super fast
2:15:50 and at the
2:15:50 same time
2:15:51 so that we
2:15:51 would require
2:15:53 even fewer
2:15:54 servers to
2:15:54 maintain the
2:15:54 load?
2:15:55 And he
2:15:55 said, yes,
2:15:57 but PHP
2:15:57 is not
2:15:57 enough.
2:15:58 I’ll have
2:15:59 to rewrite
2:16:00 a big
2:16:01 part of
2:16:04 your data
2:16:04 engines in
2:16:05 C and
2:16:05 C++.
2:16:07 I said,
2:16:07 okay, let’s
2:16:08 do that.
2:16:09 He invited
2:16:12 a friend of
2:16:13 his to help
2:16:13 him, another
2:16:15 absolute champion
2:16:18 in the world’s
2:16:18 programming
2:16:21 contest twice
2:16:21 in a row
2:16:23 and they
2:16:26 put together
2:16:27 the first
2:16:28 customized data
2:16:29 engine, which
2:16:30 was far more
2:16:31 efficient than
2:16:32 just relying on
2:16:34 MySQL and
2:16:35 memcached
2:16:36 because it
2:16:38 was, first
2:16:39 of all, more
2:16:40 specialized, more
2:16:41 low-level.
2:16:41 So they
2:16:42 rewrote in
2:16:43 C++?
2:16:44 A large
2:16:44 chunk of
2:16:44 it.
2:16:44 Like, for
2:16:46 example, the
2:16:47 search, the
2:16:48 ad engine
2:16:48 because VK
2:16:49 had targeted
2:16:51 ads, they
2:16:52 built that.
2:16:54 It was very
2:16:54 efficient what
2:16:55 they did.
2:16:55 Eventually the
2:16:56 private messaging
2:16:58 part, the
2:16:59 public messages
2:16:59 part.
2:17:02 At some point
2:17:04 we realized
2:17:05 there are very
2:17:06 few websites
2:17:08 online that
2:17:09 load faster
2:17:09 than VK.
2:17:11 Nice.
2:17:12 I remember
2:17:14 in 2009, I
2:17:14 went to
2:17:15 Silicon Valley
2:17:16 and I
2:17:17 met Mark
2:17:18 Zuckerberg
2:17:18 the first
2:17:19 time and
2:17:20 some of
2:17:20 the other
2:17:22 core team
2:17:23 members of
2:17:24 early Facebook.
2:17:25 Remember,
2:17:26 Facebook was
2:17:27 just four or
2:17:27 five years
2:17:28 old.
2:17:30 and everybody
2:17:30 kept asking
2:17:31 me, how
2:17:32 come even
2:17:32 here in
2:17:33 Silicon Valley
2:17:34 VK loads
2:17:35 faster than
2:17:35 Facebook?
2:17:35 Everything
2:17:36 seems to
2:17:39 appear
2:17:40 instantly on
2:17:40 your website.
2:17:41 What’s the
2:17:42 secret sauce?
2:17:43 That was one
2:17:44 of the things
2:17:45 that made
2:17:45 them very
2:17:46 curious.
2:17:47 And that
2:17:47 was always
2:17:47 important to
2:17:48 you, to
2:17:49 have very low
2:17:49 latency, to
2:17:50 make sure the
2:17:50 thing loads.
2:17:52 Because that’s
2:17:52 one of the
2:17:53 things Telegram is
2:17:53 really known
2:17:53 for.
2:17:54 Even on
2:17:55 crappy
2:17:55 connections and
2:17:56 all that kind
2:17:56 of stuff, it
2:17:57 just works
2:17:58 extremely fast.
2:17:58 Everything is
2:17:58 fast.
2:18:00 As one of
2:18:00 the core
2:18:02 technological
2:18:04 ideas, we
2:18:05 prioritize speed.
2:18:07 We think that
2:18:08 people can
2:18:09 notice the
2:18:09 difference, even
2:18:10 if it’s just
2:18:11 like 50
2:18:12 millisecond
2:18:13 difference.
2:18:14 The difference
2:18:15 is subconscious.
2:18:17 It also
2:18:18 allows us not
2:18:18 just to be
2:18:20 faster and
2:18:21 more responsive,
2:18:23 but also more
2:18:24 efficient when it
2:18:26 comes to the
2:18:27 infrastructure,
2:18:28 the expenses.
2:18:30 Because if
2:18:30 your code
2:18:32 executes faster,
2:18:32 it means you
2:18:33 need fewer
2:18:35 computational
2:18:36 resources to
2:18:37 run it.
2:18:38 So there is
2:18:39 no way you
2:18:39 can lose in
2:18:40 making things
2:18:40 faster.
2:18:41 And that’s
2:18:42 why we have
2:18:43 always been
2:18:45 very careful
2:18:46 when hiring
2:18:46 people.
2:18:48 I would only
2:18:49 hire a person
2:18:50 if I’m
2:18:50 ultimately
2:18:51 certain it’s
2:18:52 the best
2:18:52 option.
2:18:55 If you hire
2:18:56 somebody who
2:18:57 is maybe
2:18:58 a little bit
2:18:58 distracted,
2:19:00 unexperienced,
2:19:02 you may end
2:19:03 up with
2:19:05 inefficiencies in
2:19:05 your code
2:19:06 base that
2:19:07 results in
2:19:07 tens of
2:19:08 millions of
2:19:08 dollars of
2:19:09 losses.
2:19:10 And think
2:19:11 about the
2:19:11 responsibility.
2:19:14 if we jump
2:19:14 to today
2:19:16 from the
2:19:16 VK days,
2:19:18 Telegram is
2:19:19 used by over
2:19:19 a billion
2:19:20 people.
2:19:21 They open
2:19:23 it dozens
2:19:23 of times
2:19:24 every day.
2:19:26 Imagine the
2:19:27 app opens
2:19:28 with a slight
2:19:28 delay, say
2:19:30 half a second
2:19:30 delay,
2:19:33 multiplied by
2:19:33 dozens of
2:19:34 times by a
2:19:34 billion.
2:19:38 centuries,
2:19:39 millennia lost
2:19:39 for humanity
2:19:41 without any
2:19:44 reason other
2:19:45 than just
2:19:46 being sloppy.
2:19:48 That is so
2:19:48 important to
2:19:49 understand and
2:19:51 so wise that
2:19:51 it’s actually,
2:19:52 if you’re just a
2:19:53 little bit
2:19:54 careless as a
2:19:54 developer, you
2:19:55 can introduce
2:19:56 inefficiencies that
2:19:56 are going to be
2:19:58 very difficult to
2:19:59 track down because
2:20:00 you don’t know
2:20:00 that it can be
2:20:01 faster.
2:20:01 Like the code
2:20:02 doesn’t scream at
2:20:03 you saying this
2:20:03 could be much
2:20:04 faster.
2:20:05 So you have
2:20:06 to actually as
2:20:08 a craftsman be
2:20:09 very careful when
2:20:10 you’re writing the
2:20:10 code and always
2:20:12 thinking, can this
2:20:12 be done much
2:20:13 more efficiently?
2:20:14 And it can be
2:20:15 tiny things because
2:20:17 they all propagate
2:20:17 throughout the
2:20:18 code.
2:20:19 And so there’s a
2:20:20 real cost in
2:20:21 having a
2:20:22 careless developer
2:20:24 anywhere in
2:20:25 the company.
2:20:26 Because they can
2:20:26 introduce that
2:20:28 inefficiency and
2:20:28 all the other
2:20:29 developers won’t
2:20:30 know, they’ll just
2:20:31 assume it kind of
2:20:32 has to be that
2:20:32 way.
2:20:35 so there’s a
2:20:36 real responsibility
2:20:37 for every single
2:20:38 individual developer
2:20:39 that’s building any
2:20:41 component of an
2:20:41 app like Telegram
2:20:44 to just always
2:20:45 ask, okay, can
2:20:46 this be done more
2:20:46 efficiently?
2:20:48 Can this be done
2:20:49 more simply?
2:20:50 And that’s like one
2:20:50 of the most
2:20:51 beautiful aspects,
2:20:52 the art forms of
2:20:54 programming, right?
2:20:55 Oh yes, because
2:20:57 when you manage
2:20:59 to discover a
2:21:00 way to simplify
2:21:02 things, make
2:21:03 them more
2:21:05 efficient, you
2:21:05 feel incredibly
2:21:07 happy and proud
2:21:08 and accomplished.
2:21:09 And to your
2:21:11 point, I can
2:21:12 recall a few
2:21:13 instances in my
2:21:13 career where
2:21:16 firing an
2:21:17 engineer actually
2:21:18 resulted to an
2:21:19 increase in
2:21:19 productivity.
2:21:20 saying you have
2:21:21 two Android
2:21:23 engineers building
2:21:24 their app and
2:21:28 then they just
2:21:29 can’t make it,
2:21:30 they’re not
2:21:30 keeping up with
2:21:32 the pace of the
2:21:33 feature release
2:21:37 schedule and you
2:21:37 think I probably
2:21:38 have to hire a
2:21:39 third one.
2:21:40 but then you
2:21:41 notice that one
2:21:43 of them is
2:21:44 really weird,
2:21:46 falling behind the
2:21:47 schedule,
2:21:48 complaining some
2:21:48 of the time,
2:21:49 doesn’t assume
2:21:50 responsibility.
2:21:52 And you ask,
2:21:53 so what if I just
2:21:54 fire this person?
2:21:54 And you fire this
2:21:55 person.
2:21:57 And a few weeks
2:21:58 you realize you
2:21:59 actually don’t need
2:22:00 any, you never
2:22:01 needed the third
2:22:01 engineer.
2:22:04 The problem was
2:22:05 this guy who
2:22:06 created more
2:22:08 issues and more
2:22:08 problems than he
2:22:09 solved.
2:22:12 That is so
2:22:13 counterintuitive
2:22:16 because, you
2:22:16 know, in
2:22:19 developing tech
2:22:20 projects, we tend
2:22:21 to think that you
2:22:21 just throw more
2:22:22 people into
2:22:23 something and
2:22:26 then things get
2:22:27 solved miraculously
2:22:29 by themselves just
2:22:29 because more people
2:22:31 means more
2:22:32 retention from
2:22:32 them.
2:22:34 Now, that’s
2:22:35 again, extremely
2:22:36 powerful.
2:22:37 You know, Steve
2:22:37 Jobs talked about
2:22:38 A players and B
2:22:39 players and
2:22:39 there’s something
2:22:41 that happens when
2:22:42 you have B
2:22:43 players, which is
2:22:44 kind of like the
2:22:44 folks you’re
2:22:45 talking about,
2:22:46 introduced into a
2:22:47 team that can
2:22:48 somehow slow
2:22:48 everybody down.
2:22:50 They demotivate
2:22:50 everybody.
2:22:52 And it’s very
2:22:52 counterintuitive.
2:22:54 They basically,
2:22:55 part of the work
2:22:56 of creating a
2:22:58 great team is
2:22:59 removing the B
2:23:00 players.
2:23:01 It’s not just
2:23:02 hiring more,
2:23:04 generally speaking.
2:23:05 finding the A
2:23:06 players, quote
2:23:07 unquote, and
2:23:07 removing the
2:23:08 people that are
2:23:08 slowing things
2:23:09 down.
2:23:10 Oh, yes.
2:23:11 Because the
2:23:12 other thing that
2:23:12 people don’t
2:23:13 realize is how
2:23:15 demotivating working
2:23:15 with the B
2:23:16 player is.
2:23:18 Everybody can
2:23:18 tell if the
2:23:20 other person, the
2:23:21 other engineer they
2:23:22 are working with
2:23:23 is really
2:23:24 competent.
2:23:26 And if it’s very
2:23:27 visible, if the
2:23:27 person is not
2:23:28 comfortable, they
2:23:29 are asking their
2:23:29 wrong questions,
2:23:32 they keep
2:23:32 lagging behind.
2:23:35 And at a
2:23:37 certain point, if
2:23:38 you’re an A
2:23:41 player, you get
2:23:42 this dissatisfaction,
2:23:44 this feeling that
2:23:45 you are not able
2:23:46 to realize your
2:23:47 full potential,
2:23:49 accomplish what
2:23:50 you’re really meant
2:23:50 to accomplish,
2:23:53 because of this
2:23:55 person working
2:23:56 next to you, or
2:23:57 pretending to work
2:23:57 next to you.
2:23:59 And, by the
2:23:59 way, in some
2:24:00 cases, it’s not
2:24:01 because the
2:24:01 person is lazy.
2:24:03 In some cases,
2:24:05 it’s just, you
2:24:06 know, the
2:24:06 mental, the
2:24:08 intellectual ability
2:24:08 is not there.
2:24:10 It’s not about
2:24:11 experience.
2:24:13 Most often, it’s
2:24:15 about natural
2:24:16 ability and
2:24:17 persistence.
2:24:20 In 90% of
2:24:22 cases, it’s just
2:24:23 the inability to
2:24:24 focus on one
2:24:26 task for an
2:24:26 extended period of
2:24:27 time.
2:24:28 not everybody
2:24:29 has this
2:24:29 ability.
2:24:31 So for people
2:24:32 who do have
2:24:33 this ability, it’s
2:24:35 an insult to
2:24:36 work alongside
2:24:38 someone who
2:24:39 is distracted
2:24:42 and cannot go
2:24:44 deep in the
2:24:45 projects that
2:24:46 they’re responsible
2:24:46 for.
2:24:49 And so on
2:24:50 this small
2:24:50 tangent, what’s
2:24:51 your hiring
2:24:51 process?
2:24:53 So you’ve
2:24:54 shown, you’ve
2:24:55 talked about how
2:24:55 you use
2:24:56 competitions often,
2:24:57 coding competitions
2:24:58 to hire, to
2:24:58 find great
2:24:59 engineers.
2:25:00 What’s your
2:25:01 thinking behind
2:25:01 that?
2:25:03 Well, it’s in
2:25:04 line with my
2:25:06 overall philosophy, I
2:25:07 think competition
2:25:07 leads to
2:25:07 progress.
2:25:09 If you want to
2:25:10 create an ideal
2:25:12 process for
2:25:13 selecting the
2:25:14 most qualified
2:25:16 people for
2:25:17 certain specific
2:25:18 tasks you have
2:25:19 in mind, what
2:25:19 can be better
2:25:20 than a
2:25:20 competition?
2:25:22 A coding
2:25:23 contest where
2:25:24 everybody who
2:25:25 wants to join
2:25:25 your company as
2:25:26 an engineer or
2:25:27 just wants to
2:25:28 get some prize
2:25:29 money or
2:25:31 validation can
2:25:32 demonstrate
2:25:32 their skills
2:25:35 and then we
2:25:35 just select the
2:25:37 best or if
2:25:37 we are not
2:25:39 certain because
2:25:40 there’s not
2:25:42 enough data to
2:25:43 hire somebody,
2:25:44 we just repeat
2:25:46 the contest with
2:25:47 another task,
2:25:49 get more data,
2:25:49 get more
2:25:51 winners, then
2:25:52 repeat it
2:25:53 again and
2:25:54 at some point
2:25:55 you realize,
2:25:55 oh, actually
2:25:57 this guy has
2:25:58 competed in
2:25:59 10 of our
2:26:00 contests since
2:26:01 he was 16
2:26:02 years old
2:26:03 or 14
2:26:03 years old,
2:26:06 now he’s
2:26:07 20 or 21,
2:26:08 he won in
2:26:09 8 of these
2:26:09 competitions,
2:26:11 he seems to
2:26:12 be really good
2:26:12 in JavaScript
2:26:13 and Android,
2:26:15 Java and
2:26:16 also C++,
2:26:18 why not
2:26:19 hire this
2:26:20 person?
2:26:22 There is
2:26:23 some consistency
2:26:26 there and a
2:26:26 lot of these
2:26:27 people, they
2:26:28 have never
2:26:29 worked in
2:26:30 a big
2:26:31 company before
2:26:32 which is
2:26:33 priceless
2:26:34 because in
2:26:34 a big
2:26:34 company
2:26:37 people tend
2:26:38 to shift
2:26:39 responsibility,
2:26:39 they have this
2:26:40 shared
2:26:40 responsibility
2:26:41 wherein
2:26:43 nobody
2:26:44 fully
2:26:45 understands
2:26:47 who can
2:26:48 take credit
2:26:48 for a project,
2:26:49 who can
2:26:49 take blame
2:26:50 for a project,
2:26:53 inside
2:26:53 Telegram is
2:26:54 pretty clear
2:26:57 and these
2:26:57 competitions
2:27:00 are the
2:27:01 closest experience
2:27:04 to what
2:27:05 people will
2:27:06 have when
2:27:07 working at
2:27:07 Telegram.
2:27:08 So for
2:27:09 example, we
2:27:09 want to
2:27:11 implement certain
2:27:12 very tricky
2:27:12 animation and
2:27:13 redesign to
2:27:15 the profile
2:27:16 page of
2:27:18 the Telegram
2:27:19 Android version
2:27:20 and the
2:27:21 Android app
2:27:22 is an
2:27:22 open source
2:27:23 app.
2:27:24 Anybody can
2:27:24 take its
2:27:25 code and
2:27:25 play with
2:27:25 it.
2:27:27 So as a
2:27:28 result, we
2:27:29 would not
2:27:29 just select
2:27:30 the best
2:27:31 person and
2:27:32 hire this
2:27:33 person, we
2:27:33 would also
2:27:33 select the
2:27:34 best solution
2:27:34 to the
2:27:35 problem because
2:27:36 we would
2:27:37 not suggest
2:27:38 the contestants
2:27:39 to solve
2:27:40 trivial problems.
2:27:41 It’s something
2:27:42 that’s valuable.
2:27:43 It saves a lot
2:27:43 of time
2:27:44 for us
2:27:44 in terms
2:27:45 of development.
2:27:47 And because
2:27:47 I always
2:27:48 had these
2:27:49 large social
2:27:50 media platforms
2:27:51 which I
2:27:52 could use
2:27:53 to promote
2:27:54 these competitions,
2:27:56 somehow both
2:27:57 VK and
2:27:59 Telegram were
2:28:00 very popular
2:28:01 among
2:28:03 engineers and
2:28:03 designers,
2:28:05 other tech
2:28:05 people.
2:28:07 I had no
2:28:08 issue to
2:28:09 find, to
2:28:10 promote these
2:28:10 contests and
2:28:11 find the right
2:28:11 people ever.
2:28:12 man,
2:28:15 what can
2:28:15 be better
2:28:17 than for
2:28:17 an employee
2:28:18 of your
2:28:19 company, of
2:28:19 somebody who
2:28:20 has been a
2:28:21 user of it?
2:28:22 If this
2:28:22 person has
2:28:23 no prior
2:28:25 experience of
2:28:26 using Telegram,
2:28:27 their understanding
2:28:28 would be very
2:28:28 limited.
2:28:29 Why would I
2:28:30 even try to
2:28:31 hire somebody
2:28:32 from LinkedIn
2:28:34 who worked
2:28:35 at Google
2:28:36 and other
2:28:36 companies
2:28:40 is used
2:28:40 to receiving
2:28:41 salary for
2:28:42 nothing?
2:28:44 Is used
2:28:45 to shift
2:28:46 responsibility
2:28:46 and being
2:28:47 stuck in
2:28:47 endless
2:28:48 meetings
2:28:51 and have
2:28:54 very limited
2:28:54 understanding of
2:28:55 what Telegram
2:28:56 stands for?
2:28:58 it’s just
2:28:59 crazy if
2:28:59 you think
2:29:00 about it.
2:29:02 Yeah, but
2:29:02 because of
2:29:03 that, you’re
2:29:04 extremely selective
2:29:05 and slow in
2:29:05 hiring.
2:29:07 So, like,
2:29:08 people really
2:29:09 have to earn
2:29:10 their spot.
2:29:11 And as a
2:29:12 result, I got
2:29:12 a chance to
2:29:13 sit in in
2:29:14 one of the
2:29:15 team meetings
2:29:16 where people
2:29:16 discuss the
2:29:17 different features
2:29:17 that are being
2:29:18 developed, the
2:29:19 different ideas,
2:29:20 some of which
2:29:20 are at the
2:29:21 very cutting
2:29:21 edge.
2:29:22 And so, you
2:29:22 get to see
2:29:23 behind the
2:29:24 scenes how
2:29:24 it’s possible
2:29:25 to have such
2:29:25 a fast rate
2:29:27 of idea
2:29:28 generation.
2:29:28 So, you
2:29:29 generate the
2:29:29 idea, you
2:29:30 implement the
2:29:30 prototype, and
2:29:31 then you
2:29:34 eventually, it
2:29:34 becomes an
2:29:35 actual feature
2:29:35 in the
2:29:35 product.
2:29:36 And so,
2:29:37 that’s why you
2:29:37 have this
2:29:38 kind of half
2:29:39 hilarious,
2:29:41 half incredible
2:29:43 fact that
2:29:45 for many, as
2:29:45 compared to
2:29:46 WhatsApp and
2:29:47 Signal, you’ve
2:29:48 led the way
2:29:48 on many of
2:29:49 the features.
2:29:50 Many of the
2:29:50 features we
2:29:51 take for granted
2:29:51 now.
2:29:52 many of
2:29:53 which we
2:29:53 know and
2:29:55 love, like
2:29:56 the auto
2:29:56 delete timer
2:29:58 that was
2:29:59 seven years
2:30:00 ahead of
2:30:01 any other
2:30:01 messenger.
2:30:02 Message
2:30:03 editing,
2:30:05 replies,
2:30:07 these are
2:30:07 all like
2:30:08 obvious
2:30:08 things.
2:30:09 I’ve even
2:30:10 forgotten for
2:30:10 some of
2:30:10 them that
2:30:11 they even
2:30:11 were never
2:30:12 part.
2:30:12 I mean, I
2:30:13 think auto
2:30:14 delete timer
2:30:15 is a really
2:30:16 brilliant idea.
2:30:17 We implemented
2:30:18 it in 2013
2:30:19 in the secret
2:30:20 chats.
2:30:20 The funny
2:30:21 thing about
2:30:21 it is then
2:30:22 when other
2:30:23 apps started
2:30:23 to copy
2:30:24 it, like
2:30:25 WhatsApp seven
2:30:26 years after
2:30:28 and then
2:30:28 Signal and
2:30:28 some other
2:30:29 of these
2:30:31 apps, they
2:30:32 initially even
2:30:33 copied the
2:30:34 exact
2:30:35 timestamps.
2:30:36 So for
2:30:36 example, if we
2:30:37 had like one,
2:30:38 three, and five
2:30:38 seconds, they
2:30:39 would also have
2:30:39 one, three, and
2:30:40 five seconds.
2:30:40 Yeah.
2:30:42 They tried not
2:30:42 to change it
2:30:43 because they
2:30:43 were not sure
2:30:45 what was the
2:30:45 magic sauce
2:30:46 behind the
2:30:46 feature.
2:30:48 ironically, it
2:30:49 happens with
2:30:50 many of
2:30:51 these things.
2:30:51 For example,
2:30:52 when we
2:30:53 designed how
2:30:55 you reply to
2:30:55 a message
2:30:56 and you
2:30:57 have a
2:30:58 small snippet
2:30:59 showing that
2:31:00 you’re
2:31:00 replying to
2:31:01 this message
2:31:01 and now
2:31:02 you’re typing
2:31:02 your response,
2:31:03 then there’s a
2:31:04 small snippet
2:31:04 into the
2:31:05 message itself
2:31:06 that, if
2:31:07 you tap on
2:31:08 it, highlights
2:31:09 the original
2:31:10 message you’re
2:31:10 replying to.
2:31:12 Seems pretty
2:31:13 obvious, but
2:31:13 there are
2:31:14 certain design
2:31:15 decisions that
2:31:16 we were
2:31:17 implementing at
2:31:17 the time and
2:31:18 we got this
2:31:19 vertical line on
2:31:20 the left and
2:31:21 all these other
2:31:22 small things that
2:31:23 are completely
2:31:24 arbitrary, right?
2:31:24 You can do it
2:31:25 in a different
2:31:26 way, but
2:31:27 somehow the
2:31:28 entire industry
2:31:29 ended up
2:31:29 copying exactly
2:31:30 that solution.
2:31:31 So now
2:31:32 whenever you
2:31:33 go to
2:31:33 WhatsApp,
2:31:34 Instagram
2:31:34 Direct,
2:31:34 Facebook
2:31:35 Messenger,
2:31:36 Signal,
2:31:37 it doesn’t
2:31:38 matter, you
2:31:38 would see
2:31:39 exactly the
2:31:40 same or
2:31:40 pretty much
2:31:42 similar
2:31:43 experience.
2:31:44 because nobody
2:31:45 really wants
2:31:45 to take the
2:31:47 risk and
2:31:48 innovate.
2:31:50 If something
2:31:52 works, why
2:31:52 not just
2:31:53 copy it?
2:31:54 Yeah, but we
2:31:54 should say that
2:31:55 it’s done
2:31:56 extremely well,
2:31:56 the vertical
2:31:57 line and the
2:31:57 highlighting.
2:31:59 I mean, all
2:31:59 of these are
2:32:00 tiny little
2:32:00 strokes of
2:32:01 genius.
2:32:02 Highlighting the
2:32:03 text in a
2:32:04 certain way that
2:32:05 from a design
2:32:07 perspective makes
2:32:08 it very clear
2:32:09 that this part
2:32:09 was written
2:32:10 before and
2:32:11 the thing under
2:32:12 it is your
2:32:12 reply.
2:32:13 the distinction
2:32:14 between the
2:32:14 different
2:32:15 formatting of
2:32:15 the text.
2:32:15 I mean,
2:32:16 there’s a,
2:32:18 listen, I
2:32:18 know how
2:32:19 much typography
2:32:19 is an art
2:32:20 form.
2:32:21 There’s a
2:32:22 lot of
2:32:23 interacting
2:32:25 graphic
2:32:27 artistic
2:32:27 elements inside
2:32:28 Telegram that
2:32:28 all have to
2:32:29 play together
2:32:30 extremely well.
2:32:31 Like you
2:32:32 pointed out to
2:32:33 me, this
2:32:33 thing that
2:32:34 just blew
2:32:34 my mind,
2:32:35 which is the
2:32:36 background
2:32:37 gradient of
2:32:37 Telegram
2:32:38 shifts,
2:32:39 it changes,
2:32:41 and it
2:32:42 adjusts really
2:32:42 nicely to
2:32:43 the bubbles,
2:32:44 the chat
2:32:44 bubbles.
2:32:45 And then
2:32:46 there’s like
2:32:47 graphic elements
2:32:48 on top of the
2:32:49 gradient that
2:32:49 are all
2:32:49 interplayed
2:32:50 together.
2:32:51 So all of
2:32:51 that has to
2:32:52 work really
2:32:53 nicely without
2:32:54 sacrificing
2:32:54 clarity.
2:32:56 Everything’s
2:32:56 just intuitive.
2:32:58 That’s very
2:32:58 difficult to
2:32:59 create.
2:33:00 That is art.
2:33:01 And on top of
2:33:01 that, super
2:33:02 fast.
2:33:03 that’s the
2:33:03 hardest part.
2:33:05 To make it
2:33:05 look so that
2:33:06 designers love
2:33:07 it is one
2:33:07 thing.
2:33:08 The real
2:33:09 challenge is
2:33:11 make it look
2:33:12 the way the
2:33:12 designers love
2:33:14 it and make
2:33:14 it work on
2:33:16 the weakest
2:33:17 devices possible,
2:33:17 all the
2:33:18 cheapest
2:33:19 smartphones you
2:33:20 can imagine.
2:33:22 So if you
2:33:22 take the
2:33:24 moving gradient
2:33:25 on the
2:33:26 background of
2:33:26 every Telegram
2:33:28 chat, this
2:33:28 is something
2:33:29 most people
2:33:30 don’t
2:33:32 notice, but
2:33:33 they can
2:33:33 feel it.
2:33:34 Yeah, they
2:33:35 notice it
2:33:36 subconsciously or
2:33:37 something like
2:33:37 that.
2:33:37 There is a
2:33:38 pleasant feeling.
2:33:39 There’s a
2:33:41 feeling, there’s
2:33:41 a pleasant
2:33:42 feeling when
2:33:43 you’re reading
2:33:44 a chat.
2:33:44 And that’s
2:33:46 where the
2:33:47 design contributes
2:33:47 to that.
2:33:48 I think a
2:33:49 gradient really
2:33:49 does.
2:33:51 I really love
2:33:51 that about
2:33:52 Telegram, the
2:33:52 gradient.
2:33:53 Not the
2:33:53 technical thing
2:33:54 you described,
2:33:55 but the
2:33:55 feeling of it.
2:33:56 And then the
2:33:57 technical aspect
2:33:58 of creating that
2:33:58 feeling is
2:33:59 incredible.
2:34:00 I could
2:34:01 probably come
2:34:01 up with all
2:34:01 kinds of
2:34:02 algorithms of
2:34:03 rendering that
2:34:04 gradient that’s
2:34:04 going to be
2:34:05 super inefficient.
2:34:07 And so doing
2:34:07 that efficiently
2:34:08 is like…
2:34:09 Or efficient,
2:34:10 but not too
2:34:11 beautiful.
2:34:12 Because even
2:34:14 doing something
2:34:15 so trivial as
2:34:17 a gradient can
2:34:18 result in
2:34:20 noticeable lines
2:34:20 in the
2:34:21 gradient that
2:34:22 a person can
2:34:23 instantly say,
2:34:23 oh no, it’s
2:34:24 not the right
2:34:24 thing, so you
2:34:25 can have to
2:34:26 introduce certain
2:34:27 randomness there.
2:34:29 And then you
2:34:29 have the
2:34:29 gradient,
2:34:30 but it’s
2:34:30 not enough,
2:34:30 it’s to
2:34:31 plant.
2:34:31 You want
2:34:33 to have
2:34:34 certain pattern
2:34:34 as an
2:34:35 overlay, but
2:34:35 it should be
2:34:36 simple enough
2:34:37 not to
2:34:38 distract you
2:34:39 from the
2:34:39 content, but
2:34:40 it has to
2:34:41 be entertaining
2:34:42 enough to
2:34:42 create a good
2:34:43 feeling about
2:34:44 the whole
2:34:44 app.
2:34:45 And another
2:34:45 question, what
2:34:46 kind of
2:34:49 objects you
2:34:49 want to
2:34:50 include in
2:34:50 this pattern?
2:34:51 And how
2:34:51 this pattern
2:34:52 would work?
2:34:53 Will it be
2:34:54 based in
2:34:55 pixels?
2:34:57 or would it
2:34:57 be vector
2:34:58 based?
2:34:59 And what
2:34:59 would it be
2:35:00 vector based?
2:35:01 So they
2:35:01 will be
2:35:02 infinitely
2:35:02 scalable and
2:35:03 high quality.
2:35:05 And then I
2:35:06 think for the
2:35:07 default pattern
2:35:07 and the
2:35:08 default background,
2:35:09 which is based
2:35:10 on four colors,
2:35:11 it’s not a
2:35:11 gradient based
2:35:12 on two colors,
2:35:13 it’s four colors,
2:35:14 and they’re
2:35:15 constantly shifting.
2:35:17 I probably
2:35:18 look through
2:35:20 several thousand
2:35:21 variations of
2:35:21 that.
2:35:23 Because it’s
2:35:23 such an
2:35:24 important decision
2:35:25 to make.
2:35:25 It’s the
2:35:26 default background.
2:35:26 Of course, you
2:35:27 can change it.
2:35:27 Actually, you
2:35:28 can set up
2:35:29 your own four
2:35:29 colors for
2:35:30 that.
2:35:30 You can
2:35:31 change it.
2:35:31 No way.
2:35:32 Really?
2:35:32 Yes, you
2:35:33 can do it.
2:35:33 And you
2:35:35 want to rely
2:35:35 on certain
2:35:36 deeply
2:35:37 hard-coded
2:35:38 biological
2:35:39 properties of
2:35:40 the human
2:35:41 mind, right?
2:35:42 So which
2:35:42 color do you
2:35:43 want to use?
2:35:44 Is it going
2:35:45 to be blue?
2:35:45 is it going
2:35:46 to be yellow?
2:35:47 Is it going
2:35:47 to be green?
2:35:49 Because each
2:35:50 color has
2:35:51 a different
2:35:52 meaning in
2:35:52 our brain.
2:35:54 And what
2:35:54 kind of
2:35:54 objects you
2:35:55 want to
2:35:55 put there?
2:35:57 Something from
2:35:59 our childhood,
2:36:00 something from
2:36:01 nature, or
2:36:02 something that
2:36:03 can create a
2:36:03 different kind
2:36:03 of mood.
2:36:04 And this is
2:36:05 just one
2:36:05 detail of
2:36:06 the app.
2:36:06 So there
2:36:07 are many
2:36:07 details.
2:36:08 When you
2:36:09 send a
2:36:10 message, you
2:36:11 are done
2:36:11 typing a
2:36:12 message, and
2:36:12 you then
2:36:13 tap send,
2:36:14 and then the
2:36:14 message gradually
2:36:15 appears in
2:36:15 the chat.
2:36:16 How does
2:36:17 it happen?
2:36:18 So you
2:36:19 want the
2:36:20 input field
2:36:22 to slowly
2:36:23 morph into
2:36:24 the actual
2:36:25 message.
2:36:25 To the
2:36:26 message, yeah.
2:36:27 And you
2:36:28 want this to
2:36:29 be done
2:36:30 regardless of
2:36:30 the contents
2:36:30 of the
2:36:32 message, because
2:36:32 sometimes the
2:36:33 width would be
2:36:33 different,
2:36:34 sometimes it
2:36:34 would be
2:36:35 containing media
2:36:36 or a link
2:36:37 preview or
2:36:37 other stuff
2:36:38 that will
2:36:40 change the
2:36:40 message bubble.
2:36:43 So you
2:36:44 go through
2:36:45 countless
2:36:46 different
2:36:48 scenarios and
2:36:49 make sure
2:36:50 every one of
2:36:51 them works
2:36:52 great, even
2:36:52 if this
2:36:53 message contains
2:36:54 4,000
2:36:55 characters.
2:36:57 And then
2:36:59 you look at
2:37:00 all the
2:37:01 platforms, iOS,
2:37:01 Android, and
2:37:02 all the old
2:37:03 devices, all
2:37:04 kinds of
2:37:05 outdated
2:37:06 operating
2:37:09 systems and
2:37:11 hardware, and
2:37:11 you cross
2:37:12 the tool
2:37:12 because you
2:37:13 can have
2:37:14 this really
2:37:15 bad old
2:37:16 phone, but
2:37:17 using the
2:37:18 newest
2:37:19 operating
2:37:19 system
2:37:20 version, so
2:37:20 what do you
2:37:20 do?
2:37:22 What kind of
2:37:23 bugs you
2:37:24 get there?
2:37:26 And then, of
2:37:26 course, since
2:37:27 Telegram works
2:37:29 on tablets
2:37:30 as well, and
2:37:31 our iOS version
2:37:32 works on an
2:37:34 iPad, which
2:37:34 I love a lot,
2:37:36 you have to
2:37:37 understand that
2:37:38 everything can
2:37:39 be really
2:37:39 big, so
2:37:40 it can
2:37:41 consume a
2:37:41 lot of
2:37:42 space on
2:37:43 your screen,
2:37:45 and then it
2:37:45 will trigger
2:37:47 using more
2:37:48 computational
2:37:49 resources to
2:37:50 render it.
2:37:51 So there are
2:37:51 a lot of
2:37:52 nuances to
2:37:53 it, but as
2:37:54 long as you
2:37:54 obsess over
2:37:55 every small
2:37:57 detail, at
2:37:57 least every
2:37:58 detail that
2:37:58 really counts,
2:38:00 you can get
2:38:00 to a user
2:38:01 experience.
2:38:02 If you’re
2:38:02 really used
2:38:03 to Telegram,
2:38:03 if you’ve
2:38:04 been a
2:38:05 regular user
2:38:06 for at
2:38:06 least a few
2:38:07 weeks, going
2:38:08 back to
2:38:08 any other
2:38:09 messaging
2:38:10 app feels
2:38:13 like a
2:38:14 serious
2:38:14 downgrade.
2:38:15 Yeah, I
2:38:16 mean, there
2:38:17 are so many
2:38:18 really magical
2:38:18 moments, like
2:38:19 for example,
2:38:21 the way a
2:38:22 message evaporates
2:38:23 when you
2:38:24 delete it,
2:38:25 that is a
2:38:26 really pleasant
2:38:27 experience.
2:38:28 Oh, yeah,
2:38:29 and boy,
2:38:31 was it hard
2:38:31 to make?
2:38:33 Particularly
2:38:33 on Android.
2:38:34 This is
2:38:36 this Thanos
2:38:37 snap effect,
2:38:37 right?
2:38:37 So the
2:38:39 message is
2:38:40 broken to
2:38:40 tens of
2:38:41 thousands
2:38:41 particles,
2:38:42 which go
2:38:43 away like
2:38:44 dust in
2:38:45 the wind.
2:38:46 It looks
2:38:47 great, but
2:38:48 it was so
2:38:49 hard to
2:38:49 make.
2:38:50 Probably one
2:38:51 of my favorite
2:38:53 GUI,
2:38:54 graphical
2:38:56 things.
2:38:57 It’s just
2:38:57 art.
2:39:00 It’s pure
2:39:00 art.
2:39:02 It’s incredible.
2:39:02 So it’s good
2:39:03 to hear that
2:39:03 it’s been
2:39:04 really fought
2:39:04 over and
2:39:05 thought through.
2:39:06 It’s extremely
2:39:07 well done.
2:39:08 No, you
2:39:09 can’t pull
2:39:10 it off if
2:39:11 you’re not
2:39:13 going deep
2:39:13 in this.
2:39:15 And then you
2:39:15 don’t want to
2:39:16 distract people
2:39:18 from their
2:39:20 communication
2:39:21 with all
2:39:23 this additional
2:39:23 animation.
2:39:24 So you want
2:39:25 them to be
2:39:26 invisible.
2:39:28 in a way.
2:39:28 They create
2:39:29 the feeling,
2:39:29 but they
2:39:30 don’t create
2:39:30 distraction.
2:39:31 Yes.
2:39:32 And in
2:39:32 order to
2:39:32 do that,
2:39:34 you have to
2:39:35 overcome even
2:39:37 more challenges.
2:39:38 For example,
2:39:39 you mentioned
2:39:40 this deletion
2:39:40 effect.
2:39:41 Message
2:39:42 evaporates.
2:39:43 If you do
2:39:44 the animation,
2:39:45 if you show
2:39:45 the animation
2:39:46 first, and
2:39:47 then the
2:39:48 message that
2:39:49 is preceding
2:39:49 the deleted
2:39:50 message that
2:39:50 is going
2:39:51 after the
2:39:52 deleted
2:39:53 message move
2:39:54 closer to
2:39:54 each other,
2:39:55 then it
2:39:56 doesn’t feel
2:39:56 right.
2:39:57 it feels
2:39:59 too long,
2:40:00 too imposing.
2:40:01 So what you
2:40:02 want to do
2:40:03 is you
2:40:04 want the
2:40:05 message
2:40:06 disappear
2:40:08 while the
2:40:09 messages around
2:40:10 it go
2:40:10 closer to
2:40:11 each other
2:40:12 to fill the
2:40:13 resulting gap.
2:40:15 screen.
2:40:15 And then
2:40:16 you imagine
2:40:16 what it
2:40:16 involves,
2:40:18 redrawing
2:40:19 the entire
2:40:19 screen.
2:40:20 So on
2:40:21 top of
2:40:22 this very
2:40:23 complicated
2:40:24 animation,
2:40:26 you have
2:40:26 to think
2:40:27 about things
2:40:28 like which
2:40:28 kind of
2:40:29 messages
2:40:31 were there
2:40:31 before,
2:40:32 after.
2:40:34 It just
2:40:34 adds to
2:40:35 complexity.
2:40:36 And once
2:40:36 again,
2:40:36 on all
2:40:37 kinds of
2:40:37 devices,
2:40:38 all kinds
2:40:38 of operating
2:40:39 systems,
2:40:39 all kinds
2:40:40 tablets,
2:40:41 phones,
2:40:41 desktop,
2:40:42 all of
2:40:42 that.
2:40:43 But you
2:40:43 know,
2:40:44 once you
2:40:44 accomplish it,
2:40:46 it gives you
2:40:46 this immense
2:40:48 sense of
2:40:48 pride.
2:40:50 Because nobody
2:40:51 is doing
2:40:51 this.
2:40:52 Nobody really
2:40:53 cares.
2:40:54 In a way,
2:40:54 maybe they’re
2:40:55 right not to
2:40:55 care.
2:40:57 Maybe nobody
2:40:58 notices this.
2:41:00 but there
2:41:01 is something
2:41:01 about it
2:41:02 that feels
2:41:02 wrong when
2:41:03 such things
2:41:03 are neglected
2:41:04 because I
2:41:05 understand that
2:41:05 every day
2:41:07 tens of
2:41:07 millions of
2:41:07 people around
2:41:08 the world
2:41:09 deleting
2:41:09 messages.
2:41:13 What kind
2:41:13 of experience
2:41:14 do they
2:41:14 get?
2:41:16 Is this
2:41:16 an experience
2:41:18 that maybe
2:41:19 even subconsciously
2:41:20 inspires them
2:41:23 and makes
2:41:24 their hearts
2:41:25 sing even a
2:41:26 little bit?
2:41:28 Fills them
2:41:29 with joy,
2:41:30 lightens up
2:41:31 their mood
2:41:31 even a
2:41:31 little bit
2:41:35 by 0.001%.
2:41:38 Or is it
2:41:38 something that
2:41:39 is just
2:41:40 basic?
2:41:41 And I
2:41:41 think if we
2:41:44 can bring
2:41:45 some value
2:41:46 in people’s
2:41:46 lives,
2:41:48 even through
2:41:49 these subtle
2:41:49 details,
2:41:51 we have to
2:41:52 definitely invest
2:41:53 our time in
2:41:53 it.
2:41:54 And some
2:41:54 joy,
2:41:55 not just
2:41:55 sort of
2:41:56 value,
2:41:57 value-like
2:41:57 productivity,
2:41:58 but joy.
2:41:59 I think
2:41:59 Steve Jobs,
2:42:00 Johnny Ive
2:42:01 talked about
2:42:01 this.
2:42:02 They will
2:42:02 put so
2:42:04 much love
2:42:04 and effort
2:42:05 in the
2:42:05 design of
2:42:06 everything,
2:42:06 including
2:42:06 things that
2:42:07 weren’t
2:42:07 visible in
2:42:08 the initial
2:42:08 PC,
2:42:08 personal
2:42:09 computers,
2:42:10 because they
2:42:11 believe that
2:42:12 somehow,
2:42:14 through osmosis,
2:42:15 the users will
2:42:15 be able to
2:42:16 feel the love
2:42:17 that the
2:42:17 designers put
2:42:18 into the
2:42:18 thing.
2:42:19 And you’re
2:42:19 absolutely
2:42:20 right.
2:42:20 me,
2:42:21 it’s not
2:42:21 about
2:42:21 deleting
2:42:22 messages.
2:42:24 I feel
2:42:24 a little
2:42:26 inkling of
2:42:27 joy when
2:42:28 I see
2:42:28 that
2:42:30 evaporation
2:42:30 animation.
2:42:31 It’s just
2:42:32 nice.
2:42:34 I’m happier
2:42:35 because of it.
2:42:36 And so I feel
2:42:37 that effort.
2:42:38 And I think
2:42:40 billion users
2:42:42 feel that.
2:42:43 People like
2:42:44 when other
2:42:45 people care.
2:42:47 that’s
2:42:48 exactly what
2:42:48 it is.
2:42:50 And of course
2:42:50 there’s the
2:42:51 more sexy
2:42:51 things like
2:42:52 all the
2:42:53 emojis and
2:42:54 the stickers,
2:42:55 the gifts,
2:42:56 many of
2:42:57 those are
2:42:57 just,
2:42:58 they’re a
2:42:59 little like
2:43:00 art pieces.
2:43:02 That’s again
2:43:03 an intersection
2:43:03 of art and
2:43:04 technology.
2:43:05 Because you
2:43:05 look at the
2:43:06 stickers which
2:43:08 Telegram launched
2:43:08 way before
2:43:09 most of these
2:43:10 other apps.
2:43:10 Three years
2:43:11 and eight
2:43:11 months ahead.
2:43:12 Ahead of
2:43:13 WhatsApp,
2:43:13 yes.
2:43:15 But the
2:43:15 stickers that
2:43:16 WhatsApp ended
2:43:16 up launching
2:43:17 three years
2:43:18 and eight
2:43:19 months after
2:43:20 were not,
2:43:20 the first
2:43:21 version was
2:43:22 not really
2:43:22 good because
2:43:24 they just
2:43:25 did regular
2:43:26 GIFs or
2:43:28 WebM videos
2:43:30 which were
2:43:31 not based
2:43:32 on vector
2:43:33 graphics.
2:43:34 What we
2:43:35 did is
2:43:36 vector
2:43:37 animations.
2:43:38 Each of
2:43:38 these stickers
2:43:39 is only
2:43:41 several kilobytes,
2:43:42 sometimes maybe
2:43:43 maximum 20-30
2:43:44 kilobytes
2:43:44 in size.
2:43:45 but it
2:43:47 says 180
2:43:48 frames.
2:43:48 We were
2:43:49 able to
2:43:50 run them
2:43:50 at 60
2:43:51 frames per
2:43:51 second on
2:43:52 all devices.
2:43:54 And it’s
2:43:55 also very
2:43:55 challenging.
2:43:56 It was a
2:43:56 challenging
2:43:56 thing to
2:43:57 do.
2:43:58 We had
2:43:58 so much
2:43:59 headache
2:44:00 trying to
2:44:00 make it
2:44:00 work.
2:44:01 Nobody
2:44:02 even tried
2:44:02 to do
2:44:03 anything like
2:44:03 this before
2:44:04 us because
2:44:05 it’s
2:44:06 crazily
2:44:06 difficult.
2:44:07 But as
2:44:08 a result,
2:44:08 you have
2:44:09 these fluid
2:44:09 animations.
2:44:10 You have
2:44:11 this really
2:44:12 nice user
2:44:12 experience.
2:44:13 somebody
2:44:13 sends
2:44:13 your
2:44:13 sticker,
2:44:14 you don’t
2:44:14 have to
2:44:15 wait for
2:44:15 it to
2:44:16 load because
2:44:16 it’s so
2:44:16 lightweight.
2:44:18 And it
2:44:18 starts moving
2:44:19 instantly.
2:44:20 And then,
2:44:20 of course,
2:44:21 it’s not
2:44:21 just
2:44:22 engineering.
2:44:23 You have
2:44:24 to find
2:44:25 designers
2:44:26 that are
2:44:27 able to
2:44:27 create
2:44:27 these
2:44:28 stickers
2:44:29 using
2:44:29 vector
2:44:30 graphics,
2:44:30 which
2:44:31 means
2:44:31 they’re
2:44:32 based
2:44:32 on
2:44:32 curves,
2:44:33 described
2:44:34 by
2:44:34 formulas,
2:44:35 not just
2:44:36 created as
2:44:37 photographs
2:44:37 with
2:44:38 pixels.
2:44:39 Where do
2:44:39 you find
2:44:40 these people?
2:44:41 Again,
2:44:41 we did
2:44:42 competitions,
2:44:43 but it was
2:44:44 not easy
2:44:46 to assemble
2:44:47 a team
2:44:48 of artists
2:44:49 slash
2:44:49 artists
2:44:50 slash
2:44:51 engineers,
2:44:51 I would
2:44:51 say,
2:44:53 that are
2:44:54 able to
2:44:54 do something
2:44:54 like this.
2:44:55 this is a
2:44:55 unique
2:44:57 form of
2:44:57 art.
2:45:00 And this
2:45:00 allowed us
2:45:01 to do a
2:45:02 revolution in
2:45:02 stickers,
2:45:04 then another
2:45:05 revolution in
2:45:06 animated emoji
2:45:07 that you can
2:45:08 add into
2:45:08 messages,
2:45:09 custom animated
2:45:10 emoji.
2:45:11 I don’t think
2:45:12 anybody did
2:45:12 that.
2:45:12 I think
2:45:13 Telegram is
2:45:13 still the
2:45:14 only one
2:45:14 allowing
2:45:15 users to
2:45:15 do that
2:45:16 because you
2:45:17 can include
2:45:17 a hundred
2:45:18 of animated
2:45:19 emoji in
2:45:19 a message
2:45:20 and they
2:45:21 will be
2:45:21 animated
2:45:22 and they
2:45:22 will be
2:45:22 moving
2:45:24 and your
2:45:24 device won’t
2:45:25 crash.
2:45:26 It’s
2:45:26 probably
2:45:27 unnecessary
2:45:28 and crazy
2:45:28 but we
2:45:28 think
2:45:29 somewhere in
2:45:30 this intersection
2:45:31 of art
2:45:32 and engineering
2:45:34 true quality
2:45:35 is created.
2:45:36 And then of
2:45:36 course more
2:45:38 recently we
2:45:39 expanded into
2:45:40 what we
2:45:41 call Telegram
2:45:42 gifts which
2:45:43 are essentially
2:45:44 blockchain-based
2:45:46 collectibles that
2:45:46 you can
2:45:48 demonstrate on
2:45:48 your Telegram
2:45:49 profile so
2:45:50 that they get
2:45:51 social
2:45:51 relevance but
2:45:52 you can
2:45:52 also use
2:45:53 them to
2:45:53 congratulate
2:45:54 your friends
2:45:55 and close
2:45:55 the one
2:45:57 with their
2:45:58 birthdays and
2:45:58 other holidays
2:46:00 and that was
2:46:02 received extremely
2:46:02 well.
2:46:04 Yeah they can
2:46:04 hold value,
2:46:05 they can increase
2:46:05 in value,
2:46:06 you can trade
2:46:06 them for that
2:46:07 in that aspect
2:46:07 but to me
2:46:08 still the
2:46:12 vector graphics
2:46:13 and it’s not
2:46:14 just simple
2:46:15 graphics,
2:46:16 it’s incredibly
2:46:17 intricate graphics.
2:46:18 so the
2:46:18 vector makes
2:46:19 it very
2:46:20 efficient but
2:46:20 it also
2:46:21 allows you
2:46:22 to create
2:46:23 maybe
2:46:24 incentivizes
2:46:25 the artist
2:46:28 enables them
2:46:28 incentivizes
2:46:29 them to
2:46:30 create super
2:46:31 detailed
2:46:32 intricate
2:46:34 elements and
2:46:34 then the
2:46:34 final result
2:46:35 like you would
2:46:35 think it
2:46:36 wouldn’t matter
2:46:37 but the
2:46:37 final result
2:46:37 has like a
2:46:38 lot of stuff
2:46:39 going on
2:46:40 and it allows
2:46:41 you to scale
2:46:41 on arbitrary
2:46:42 devices and
2:46:43 now it’s like
2:46:44 this little
2:46:45 you know like
2:46:47 usually gifts
2:46:48 from like
2:46:49 back in
2:46:49 the day
2:46:50 and still
2:46:51 in meme
2:46:51 form are
2:46:51 low
2:46:52 resolution
2:46:54 and so
2:46:54 that
2:46:54 descends
2:46:56 usually people
2:46:56 don’t put
2:46:57 details and
2:46:57 intricate
2:46:58 art into
2:46:59 it but
2:47:00 here with
2:47:00 vector graphics
2:47:01 it’s like
2:47:02 like a million
2:47:02 things going
2:47:03 on and it
2:47:04 allows you to
2:47:04 play with
2:47:04 different
2:47:05 animations
2:47:05 like you
2:47:06 showed me
2:47:06 this thing
2:47:07 where you
2:47:08 send and
2:47:08 you hold
2:47:09 for a while
2:47:09 on the
2:47:10 send button
2:47:11 and so
2:47:13 you can
2:47:13 share
2:47:14 with the
2:47:14 person you
2:47:14 sent a
2:47:15 message to
2:47:16 this animation
2:47:17 that you’ve
2:47:17 encoded
2:47:18 like there’s
2:47:18 a bunch of
2:47:19 stuff going
2:47:19 on when they
2:47:19 read the
2:47:20 message
2:47:21 yes we
2:47:22 have a lot
2:47:22 of features
2:47:23 like that
2:47:23 when we
2:47:24 use this
2:47:26 art to
2:47:26 allow people
2:47:27 to express
2:47:28 themselves
2:47:30 and most
2:47:30 people don’t
2:47:31 even know
2:47:31 about these
2:47:31 features
2:47:32 I didn’t
2:47:32 know about
2:47:32 it
2:47:33 that was
2:47:33 cool
2:47:33 that was
2:47:34 cool
2:47:34 the other
2:47:35 application
2:47:36 of the
2:47:36 same
2:47:36 technology
2:47:37 is
2:47:37 reactions
2:47:38 on
2:47:38 telegram
2:47:39 because
2:47:39 we
2:47:40 made
2:47:40 it
2:47:40 a
2:47:40 goal
2:47:44 to
2:47:45 make
2:47:46 sure
2:47:46 that
2:47:47 people
2:47:48 feel
2:47:49 joy
2:47:50 when they
2:47:51 just
2:47:52 send you
2:47:52 a like
2:47:53 something
2:47:54 so trivial
2:47:55 is just
2:47:56 adding a
2:47:56 like to
2:47:56 a message
2:47:58 should be
2:47:59 an action
2:48:00 that you
2:48:02 want to
2:48:02 perform
2:48:03 again and
2:48:04 again and
2:48:04 again
2:48:05 so another
2:48:05 feature is
2:48:06 on the more
2:48:07 serious side
2:48:08 is anti-encryption
2:48:09 so you
2:48:10 led the
2:48:11 industry in
2:48:11 that
2:48:12 it was
2:48:13 launched
2:48:14 one year
2:48:14 and three
2:48:15 months ahead
2:48:16 can you
2:48:16 speak to
2:48:18 why you
2:48:18 decided to
2:48:19 add
2:48:19 anti-encryption
2:48:20 how you
2:48:20 developed the
2:48:21 encryption algorithm
2:48:22 in the
2:48:22 beginning
2:48:23 what was
2:48:23 your thinking
2:48:24 behind that
2:48:25 so
2:48:25 at
2:48:27 2013
2:48:28 when we
2:48:28 were
2:48:29 launching
2:48:30 telegram
2:48:32 we were
2:48:33 aware
2:48:33 of
2:48:34 the
2:48:36 serious
2:48:36 issue
2:48:37 with
2:48:37 privacy
2:48:39 that
2:48:39 Edward
2:48:39 Snowden
2:48:40 made
2:48:40 very
2:48:41 clear
2:48:43 and we
2:48:44 thought
2:48:44 yes we
2:48:44 are
2:48:45 designing
2:48:45 this
2:48:46 product
2:48:46 in a
2:48:46 way
2:48:46 that
2:48:47 is
2:48:48 already
2:48:48 extremely
2:48:49 secure
2:48:49 but
2:48:50 we want
2:48:51 to make
2:48:52 sure
2:48:52 that
2:48:53 not even
2:48:53 we can
2:48:54 access
2:48:54 user
2:48:54 messages
2:48:56 and we
2:48:56 understood
2:48:57 very
2:48:57 clearly
2:48:57 that
2:48:58 a bunch
2:48:58 of
2:48:59 people
2:48:59 who
2:48:59 were
2:49:00 born
2:49:00 in
2:49:01 Russia
2:49:02 don’t
2:49:02 necessarily
2:49:02 inspire
2:49:03 trust
2:49:04 so
2:49:04 that’s
2:49:05 why
2:49:05 we
2:49:05 made
2:49:05 telegram
2:49:06 open
2:49:06 source
2:49:07 so
2:49:07 all
2:49:07 our
2:49:08 apps
2:49:08 have
2:49:08 been
2:49:10 open
2:49:11 available
2:49:11 on
2:49:11 github
2:49:12 since
2:49:12 2013
2:49:14 and
2:49:14 then
2:49:15 we
2:49:15 added
2:49:15 an
2:49:16 encryption
2:49:16 in
2:49:16 our
2:49:16 secret
2:49:17 chats
2:49:18 which
2:49:21 whatsapp
2:49:21 copied
2:49:22 a few
2:49:23 years
2:49:23 after
2:49:24 one
2:49:24 year
2:49:24 and
2:49:24 three
2:49:24 months
2:49:25 ahead
2:49:25 they
2:49:25 just
2:49:25 started
2:49:25 to
2:49:26 test
2:49:26 it
2:49:27 they
2:49:27 rolled
2:49:27 this
2:49:27 out
2:49:28 I
2:49:28 think
2:49:29 2016
2:49:30 which
2:49:30 is
2:49:32 three
2:49:32 years
2:49:33 after
2:49:33 us
2:49:33 and
2:49:33 the
2:49:34 only
2:49:34 reason
2:49:34 I
2:49:35 think
2:49:35 the
2:49:35 rest
2:49:35 of
2:49:35 the
2:49:36 industry
2:49:36 had
2:49:36 to
2:49:37 do
2:49:37 it
2:49:37 is
2:49:37 because
2:49:39 we
2:49:40 set
2:49:40 the
2:49:40 standard
2:49:45 it
2:49:45 was
2:49:45 incredibly
2:49:46 important
2:49:46 back in
2:49:47 the day
2:49:47 and
2:49:47 at the
2:49:47 same
2:49:48 time
2:49:48 we
2:49:48 realized
2:49:49 certain
2:49:49 limitations
2:49:50 of
2:49:50 entering
2:49:50 encryption
2:49:52 so
2:49:53 within
2:49:53 that
2:49:55 design
2:49:56 that
2:49:57 architecture
2:49:57 you
2:49:58 can’t
2:49:59 support
2:50:02 very
2:50:02 large
2:50:03 chat
2:50:03 communities
2:50:05 with
2:50:05 consistent
2:50:06 persistent
2:50:06 chat
2:50:06 histories
2:50:07 you
2:50:07 can’t
2:50:08 support
2:50:10 huge
2:50:10 one-of-many
2:50:11 channels
2:50:11 you’d
2:50:11 have
2:50:12 issues
2:50:12 with
2:50:14 maintaining
2:50:17 bots
2:50:18 that have
2:50:18 lots of
2:50:19 incoming
2:50:19 messages
2:50:21 multiple
2:50:22 device
2:50:22 support
2:50:22 becomes
2:50:23 tricky
2:50:25 people
2:50:25 will
2:50:25 end
2:50:26 up
2:50:26 losing
2:50:27 some
2:50:27 of
2:50:27 the
2:50:27 documents
2:50:27 they
2:50:28 share
2:50:29 so
2:50:29 we
2:50:29 also
2:50:30 saw
2:50:30 a lot
2:50:30 of
2:50:30 issues
2:50:32 and
2:50:32 we
2:50:32 ended
2:50:33 up
2:50:33 having
2:50:34 this
2:50:34 sort
2:50:34 of
2:50:36 hybrid
2:50:38 experience
2:50:39 where
2:50:40 depending
2:50:40 on
2:50:41 your
2:50:41 use
2:50:42 case
2:50:42 and
2:50:42 your
2:50:43 requirements
2:50:43 you can
2:50:44 choose
2:50:44 the
2:50:44 level
2:50:45 of
2:50:46 encryption
2:50:47 that
2:50:48 you want
2:50:48 to have
2:50:49 so
2:50:49 that’s
2:50:49 why
2:50:49 you
2:50:49 chose
2:50:50 to
2:50:50 go
2:50:50 opt
2:50:51 in
2:50:51 for
2:50:51 end
2:50:51 to
2:50:51 end
2:50:52 encryption
2:50:53 so
2:50:53 the
2:50:53 trade-off
2:50:53 there
2:50:54 that you’re
2:50:54 describing
2:50:55 is between
2:50:57 for people
2:50:57 who really
2:50:58 care about
2:50:58 specific
2:50:59 messages
2:51:00 extreme
2:51:00 privacy
2:51:01 on those
2:51:01 messages
2:51:03 and
2:51:04 usability
2:51:04 like
2:51:04 being able
2:51:05 to sync
2:51:05 across
2:51:05 multiple
2:51:06 devices
2:51:06 having
2:51:07 groups
2:51:07 that
2:51:07 are
2:51:08 200,000
2:51:09 people
2:51:09 so
2:51:10 all
2:51:10 of
2:51:10 those
2:51:12 features
2:51:12 that
2:51:13 quality
2:51:13 of life
2:51:14 features
2:51:15 there’s a
2:51:15 trade-off
2:51:16 between
2:51:16 those
2:51:16 and
2:51:16 end
2:51:16 to end
2:51:17 encryption
2:51:18 so
2:51:18 you lean
2:51:19 towards
2:51:20 letting
2:51:21 users
2:51:21 sort of
2:51:22 enable
2:51:22 end-to-end
2:51:23 encryption
2:51:23 for cases
2:51:24 when they
2:51:24 want to
2:51:25 be super
2:51:26 secure
2:51:26 yes
2:51:27 and
2:51:27 secret
2:51:27 chats
2:51:27 are not
2:51:28 just
2:51:28 end-to-end
2:51:29 encrypted
2:51:29 you know
2:51:30 there are
2:51:30 certain
2:51:30 limitations
2:51:32 that are
2:51:32 both
2:51:33 their feature
2:51:33 and the
2:51:33 bug
2:51:34 for example
2:51:34 you can’t
2:51:35 screenshot
2:51:35 them
2:51:36 you can’t
2:51:36 forward
2:51:37 any
2:51:39 document
2:51:39 any message
2:51:40 from them
2:51:42 which
2:51:42 is not
2:51:43 necessarily
2:51:43 something
2:51:44 you need
2:51:45 when you’re
2:51:46 trying
2:51:47 to get
2:51:48 some work
2:51:49 done
2:51:49 and you’re
2:51:50 just
2:51:50 communicating
2:51:51 with your
2:51:51 team
2:51:51 on a
2:51:51 project
2:51:53 so
2:51:54 it became
2:51:55 very
2:51:56 clear to
2:51:56 us that
2:51:57 there are
2:51:57 different
2:51:59 needs
2:51:59 here
2:51:59 and if
2:51:59 you
2:52:01 try to
2:52:01 combine
2:52:02 both
2:52:03 in one
2:52:03 type of
2:52:04 chat
2:52:05 you will
2:52:06 end up
2:52:07 losing a lot
2:52:08 of utility
2:52:09 you know
2:52:09 we at
2:52:09 Telegram
2:52:10 we don’t
2:52:11 use any
2:52:14 collaboration
2:52:14 tool
2:52:15 for
2:52:16 teamwork
2:52:16 we use
2:52:17 Telegram
2:52:17 to build
2:52:18 Telegram
2:52:19 so we
2:52:19 felt
2:52:20 instantly
2:52:20 when we
2:52:20 were
2:52:21 trying to
2:52:22 switch to
2:52:23 say secret
2:52:23 chats
2:52:24 to
2:52:26 share
2:52:26 large
2:52:27 documents
2:52:28 and
2:52:29 try to
2:52:29 get work
2:52:29 done
2:52:30 it was
2:52:30 just
2:52:31 not
2:52:32 adapted
2:52:33 for it
2:52:34 at the
2:52:34 same
2:52:34 time
2:52:36 if you
2:52:36 were
2:52:36 really
2:52:37 paranoid
2:52:38 you think
2:52:38 you know
2:52:38 I don’t
2:52:38 want to
2:52:39 be
2:52:40 screenshotted
2:52:41 I don’t
2:52:41 want to
2:52:42 have any
2:52:43 leaks
2:52:45 I don’t
2:52:45 even trust
2:52:46 Telegram
2:52:48 I only
2:52:48 trust
2:52:49 code
2:52:51 secret
2:52:51 chats
2:52:52 are the
2:52:52 best
2:52:52 option
2:52:53 I believe
2:52:54 it is
2:52:55 the most
2:52:55 secure
2:52:56 means of
2:52:56 communication
2:52:57 today
2:52:58 and we
2:52:58 should say
2:52:59 that there’s
2:52:59 a lot
2:53:00 of other
2:53:00 aspects to
2:53:01 this that
2:53:01 are important
2:53:02 for example
2:53:03 Telegram is
2:53:03 the only
2:53:04 app that
2:53:05 has open
2:53:06 source
2:53:07 reproducible
2:53:07 builds for
2:53:08 both Android
2:53:08 and iOS
2:53:09 why is this
2:53:10 important
2:53:11 so you need
2:53:12 reproducible
2:53:12 builds
2:53:14 in order
2:53:14 to
2:53:15 verify
2:53:16 that
2:53:16 the
2:53:17 app
2:53:17 really
2:53:18 does
2:53:18 what
2:53:18 it
2:53:19 claims
2:53:19 really
2:53:20 encrypts
2:53:21 data
2:53:22 in a way
2:53:23 that it
2:53:23 is described
2:53:24 on its
2:53:24 website
2:53:27 for that
2:53:28 you need
2:53:28 to make
2:53:29 your
2:53:30 apps
2:53:31 open
2:53:31 source
2:53:33 for
2:53:33 any
2:53:34 researchers
2:53:35 to have
2:53:35 a look
2:53:36 at it
2:53:37 so
2:53:37 Telegram
2:53:38 has been
2:53:38 open
2:53:38 source
2:53:40 since
2:53:40 2013
2:53:43 apps
2:53:43 like
2:53:43 WhatsApp
2:53:44 have
2:53:44 never
2:53:44 been
2:53:44 open
2:53:45 source
2:53:45 so
2:53:45 you
2:53:45 don’t
2:53:46 really
2:53:46 know
2:53:46 what
2:53:46 they’re
2:53:47 doing
2:53:47 and how
2:53:48 exactly
2:53:48 they
2:53:49 encrypt
2:53:49 your
2:53:50 messages
2:53:52 what’s
2:53:53 important
2:53:53 here
2:53:53 though
2:53:54 is
2:53:55 to
2:53:56 understand
2:53:56 whether
2:53:57 the
2:53:58 version
2:53:58 of
2:53:58 the
2:53:58 app
2:53:59 that
2:53:59 you
2:53:59 download
2:53:59 from
2:53:59 the
2:54:00 app
2:54:00 store
2:54:02 corresponds
2:54:03 exactly
2:54:04 to the
2:54:05 source
2:54:05 code
2:54:05 that you
2:54:06 can
2:54:06 view
2:54:06 on
2:54:07 GitHub
2:54:07 out
2:54:08 and
2:54:08 for
2:54:09 that
2:54:09 you
2:54:09 need
2:54:10 reproducible
2:54:10 builds
2:54:13 as
2:54:13 you
2:54:13 said
2:54:13 Telegram
2:54:13 is
2:54:13 the
2:54:14 only
2:54:14 popular
2:54:15 messaging
2:54:15 app
2:54:15 that
2:54:15 does
2:54:16 that
2:54:17 we
2:54:17 allow
2:54:18 people
2:54:18 to
2:54:18 make
2:54:18 sure
2:54:19 both
2:54:19 on
2:54:19 Android
2:54:20 and
2:54:20 the
2:54:20 IRS
2:54:21 that
2:54:22 the
2:54:22 source
2:54:22 code
2:54:23 of
2:54:23 Telegram
2:54:23 on
2:54:24 GitHub
2:54:24 and
2:54:24 the
2:54:24 app
2:54:25 you
2:54:25 are
2:54:25 actually
2:54:25 using
2:54:25 is
2:54:26 the
2:54:26 same
2:54:26 app
2:54:27 I
2:54:28 think
2:54:28 it’s
2:54:28 incredibly
2:54:29 important
2:54:29 not
2:54:30 just
2:54:30 to gain
2:54:30 people’s
2:54:31 trust
2:54:31 but
2:54:31 just
2:54:31 to
2:54:32 stay
2:54:32 transparent
2:54:32 and
2:54:33 open
2:54:33 about
2:54:33 it
2:54:34 when
2:54:34 I
2:54:35 make
2:54:35 this
2:54:35 claim
2:54:35 that
2:54:36 Telegram’s
2:54:37 secret
2:54:37 chats
2:54:38 are
2:54:38 the
2:54:38 most
2:54:39 secure
2:54:41 way
2:54:41 of
2:54:42 communicating
2:54:43 I
2:54:43 really
2:54:43 mean
2:54:44 it
2:54:44 because
2:54:44 I
2:54:45 haven’t
2:54:45 seen
2:54:47 any
2:54:47 fact
2:54:48 contradicting
2:54:48 this
2:54:49 claim
2:54:50 at
2:54:51 least
2:54:51 among
2:54:51 the
2:54:52 popular
2:54:52 messaging
2:54:52 app
2:54:52 you
2:54:53 say
2:54:53 WhatsApp
2:54:56 Signal
2:54:57 iMessage
2:54:58 none
2:54:59 of them
2:54:59 have
2:55:00 reproducible
2:55:00 builds
2:55:01 on
2:55:01 both
2:55:02 iOS
2:55:02 and
2:55:02 Android
2:55:04 none
2:55:04 of
2:55:04 them
2:55:04 have
2:55:05 at
2:55:05 least
2:55:06 at
2:55:06 the
2:55:06 same
2:55:07 level
2:55:08 put
2:55:08 so
2:55:08 much
2:55:08 effort
2:55:10 into
2:55:10 making
2:55:11 sure
2:55:12 that
2:55:13 the
2:55:14 algorithms
2:55:15 that
2:55:15 you
2:55:16 use
2:55:16 in
2:55:16 order
2:55:17 to
2:55:17 encrypt
2:55:18 data
2:55:20 are
2:55:20 not
2:55:21 algorithms
2:55:21 that
2:55:22 have
2:55:22 been
2:55:22 handed
2:55:23 to
2:55:23 you
2:55:25 by
2:55:26 some
2:55:27 agency
2:55:29 in
2:55:29 order
2:55:30 to
2:55:30 create
2:55:31 a
2:55:31 honey
2:55:31 pot
2:55:34 at
2:55:34 least
2:55:36 from
2:55:36 what
2:55:36 I
2:55:37 know
2:55:37 about
2:55:37 our
2:55:38 competitors
2:55:40 I
2:55:40 don’t
2:55:41 think
2:55:42 they
2:55:42 went
2:55:42 through
2:55:42 the
2:55:43 same
2:55:44 process
2:55:44 so
2:55:45 we
2:55:45 should
2:55:45 say
2:55:45 the
2:55:46 entirety
2:55:46 of
2:55:46 the
2:55:46 software
2:55:47 stack
2:55:47 in
2:55:47 telegram
2:55:47 is
2:55:48 done
2:55:48 from
2:55:48 scratch
2:55:49 internally
2:55:49 to
2:55:50 telegram
2:55:50 so
2:55:50 we’re
2:55:50 talking
2:55:51 about
2:55:51 not
2:55:51 just
2:55:51 the
2:55:51 encryption
2:55:53 but
2:55:53 everything
2:55:53 running
2:55:53 on the
2:55:54 servers
2:55:56 so
2:55:56 the
2:55:56 servers
2:55:56 are built
2:55:57 out
2:55:57 the hardware
2:55:58 and the
2:55:58 software
2:55:58 are all
2:55:58 done
2:55:59 internally
2:56:00 which
2:56:00 is
2:56:00 one
2:56:00 of
2:56:00 the
2:56:00 ways
2:56:01 you
2:56:01 reduce
2:56:01 the
2:56:01 attack
2:56:02 surface
2:56:03 on
2:56:03 the
2:56:03 entire
2:56:04 stack
2:56:05 that
2:56:06 handles
2:56:06 the
2:56:06 messages
2:56:07 it
2:56:07 does
2:56:07 make
2:56:08 it
2:56:08 more
2:56:08 secure
2:56:10 because
2:56:12 if
2:56:13 Snowden’s
2:56:13 relations
2:56:15 taught us
2:56:15 anything
2:56:16 is that
2:56:17 very
2:56:17 often
2:56:19 open
2:56:19 source
2:56:20 tools
2:56:21 modules
2:56:21 libraries
2:56:23 that
2:56:23 are used
2:56:23 by
2:56:24 everybody
2:56:26 ended up
2:56:26 having
2:56:27 certain
2:56:27 flaws
2:56:28 and
2:56:28 security
2:56:28 issues
2:56:31 that
2:56:31 make
2:56:31 a
2:56:31 software
2:56:32 vulnerable
2:56:32 it’s
2:56:33 also
2:56:33 a
2:56:33 way
2:56:35 to
2:56:35 make
2:56:35 sure
2:56:36 you’re
2:56:36 doing
2:56:37 things
2:56:37 the
2:56:37 most
2:56:38 efficient
2:56:38 way
2:56:39 possible
2:56:43 but
2:56:43 it’s
2:56:44 extremely
2:56:44 difficult
2:56:45 to
2:56:46 do
2:56:46 that
2:56:47 you
2:56:47 really
2:56:47 have
2:56:48 to
2:56:48 have
2:56:48 exceptional
2:56:49 talent
2:56:49 in your
2:56:49 team
2:56:50 to
2:56:51 achieve
2:56:51 this
2:56:53 level
2:56:53 of
2:56:53 thoroughness
2:56:54 to
2:56:55 go
2:56:55 to
2:56:55 a
2:56:56 low
2:56:56 level
2:56:57 of
2:56:57 coding
2:56:58 that
2:56:58 allows
2:56:58 you
2:56:58 to
2:56:59 recreate
2:56:59 from
2:57:00 scratch
2:57:00 database
2:57:01 engines
2:57:03 web
2:57:04 servers
2:57:05 entire
2:57:05 programming
2:57:06 languages
2:57:09 because
2:57:10 the
2:57:10 programming
2:57:10 language
2:57:11 we
2:57:11 use
2:57:12 on
2:57:12 the
2:57:12 back
2:57:13 end
2:57:15 to
2:57:16 develop
2:57:16 the
2:57:16 API
2:57:17 for
2:57:17 the
2:57:18 client
2:57:18 apps
2:57:19 is
2:57:19 also
2:57:20 entirely
2:57:21 built
2:57:21 by
2:57:21 our
2:57:22 team
2:57:22 yeah
2:57:23 so
2:57:23 removing
2:57:24 minimizing
2:57:24 their
2:57:25 reliance
2:57:25 on
2:57:25 open
2:57:25 source
2:57:26 libraries
2:57:26 is
2:57:26 extremely
2:57:27 difficult
2:57:28 as
2:57:28 most
2:57:28 most
2:57:29 companies
2:57:29 they
2:57:29 rely
2:57:30 on
2:57:30 open
2:57:30 source
2:57:30 libraries
2:57:31 well
2:57:31 I
2:57:32 wouldn’t
2:57:32 say
2:57:32 we
2:57:33 completely
2:57:34 independent
2:57:35 from
2:57:35 that
2:57:35 we
2:57:36 use
2:57:36 Linux
2:57:36 on
2:57:36 the
2:57:37 back
2:57:37 end
2:57:38 there’s
2:57:38 no
2:57:38 way
2:57:38 of
2:57:39 avoiding
2:57:39 it
2:57:39 for
2:57:39 us
2:57:39 at
2:57:39 the
2:57:40 moment
2:57:40 but
2:57:41 for
2:57:41 the
2:57:41 most
2:57:41 part
2:57:43 we
2:57:43 are
2:57:43 much
2:57:44 more
2:57:44 self
2:57:45 reliant
2:57:46 than
2:57:47 most
2:57:47 other
2:57:47 apps
2:57:48 you
2:57:49 mentioned
2:57:49 Edward
2:57:50 Snowden
2:57:50 a long
2:57:51 time
2:57:51 ago
2:57:51 you
2:57:51 wanted
2:57:51 to
2:57:51 work
2:57:52 together
2:57:52 with
2:57:52 him
2:57:54 perhaps
2:57:54 to
2:57:54 share
2:57:54 expertise
2:57:55 to
2:57:55 understand
2:57:56 the
2:57:57 full
2:57:57 realm
2:57:58 of
2:57:59 this
2:58:00 of
2:58:01 what
2:58:01 it
2:58:01 takes
2:58:01 to
2:58:01 achieve
2:58:02 cybersecurity
2:58:03 what do
2:58:03 you
2:58:03 make
2:58:04 of
2:58:04 his
2:58:04 case
2:58:04 what
2:58:05 lessons
2:58:05 do
2:58:05 you
2:58:05 learn
2:58:05 from
2:58:06 what
2:58:06 he
2:58:07 has
2:58:07 uncovered
2:58:08 and
2:58:09 maybe
2:58:09 even
2:58:10 broadly
2:58:10 what
2:58:11 impact
2:58:11 has
2:58:11 his
2:58:12 work
2:58:12 had
2:58:13 on
2:58:13 the
2:58:13 world
2:58:13 do
2:58:13 you
2:58:14 think
2:58:15 well
2:58:15 the
2:58:15 main
2:58:16 lesson
2:58:16 is
2:58:16 not
2:58:17 everything
2:58:17 what
2:58:17 it
2:58:18 seems
2:58:20 and
2:58:20 you
2:58:20 would
2:58:22 discover
2:58:23 and
2:58:23 this
2:58:24 is
2:58:25 something
2:58:25 that
2:58:25 I
2:58:25 found
2:58:26 quite
2:58:26 shocking
2:58:26 at
2:58:26 the
2:58:27 time
2:58:27 that
2:58:28 a lot
2:58:28 of
2:58:28 people
2:58:30 who
2:58:30 you
2:58:30 thought
2:58:31 were
2:58:35 security
2:58:35 and
2:58:36 cryptography
2:58:37 experts
2:58:38 ended up
2:58:39 being
2:58:40 agents
2:58:40 of the
2:58:41 NSA
2:58:41 in one
2:58:42 way or
2:58:42 the
2:58:42 other
2:58:44 promoting
2:58:44 flawed
2:58:45 encryption
2:58:45 standards
2:58:47 you
2:58:48 wouldn’t
2:58:49 end up
2:58:49 discovering
2:58:50 that
2:58:53 your
2:58:54 government
2:58:54 that was
2:58:55 supposed
2:58:55 to
2:58:56 be
2:58:56 limited
2:58:57 in
2:58:57 how
2:58:57 it
2:58:58 can
2:58:58 surveil
2:58:58 its
2:58:59 people
2:59:01 actually
2:59:01 doesn’t
2:59:02 consider
2:59:02 itself
2:59:03 that
2:59:03 limited
2:59:04 and
2:59:05 that
2:59:05 was
2:59:05 very
2:59:08 valuable
2:59:08 for the
2:59:09 world
2:59:09 to
2:59:10 understand
2:59:12 I
2:59:13 guess
2:59:13 it
2:59:13 also
2:59:14 can
2:59:15 be a
2:59:15 lesson
2:59:15 demonstrating
2:59:16 that
2:59:16 we
2:59:16 humans
2:59:16 don’t
2:59:17 get
2:59:17 their
2:59:17 balance
2:59:18 right
2:59:18 so
2:59:19 9-11
2:59:22 created
2:59:24 a
2:59:25 situation
2:59:26 when
2:59:26 the
2:59:27 government
2:59:27 had to
2:59:27 respond
2:59:29 and it
2:59:30 responded
2:59:31 but it
2:59:32 overreacted
2:59:33 it ended
2:59:34 up in
2:59:34 deroding
2:59:35 certain
2:59:35 basic
2:59:36 rights
2:59:36 and
2:59:36 freedoms
2:59:37 including
2:59:37 the right
2:59:37 to
2:59:38 privacy
2:59:39 because
2:59:39 the
2:59:39 government
2:59:40 always
2:59:40 wants
2:59:40 to
2:59:41 increase
2:59:42 its
2:59:43 powers
2:59:43 and
2:59:43 the
2:59:44 government
2:59:44 always
2:59:44 tries
2:59:45 to
2:59:45 do
2:59:45 it
2:59:45 at
2:59:45 the
2:59:46 expense
2:59:46 of
2:59:46 citizens
2:59:48 you
2:59:48 have
2:59:49 the
2:59:49 situation
2:59:50 when
2:59:51 the
2:59:51 cure
2:59:52 is
2:59:52 worse
2:59:52 than
2:59:52 the
2:59:53 disease
2:59:55 I
2:59:56 think
2:59:56 was
2:59:56 incredibly
2:59:57 brave
2:59:57 to do
2:59:57 what
2:59:58 Edward
2:59:58 did
3:00:00 I
3:00:00 didn’t
3:00:01 get to
3:00:01 work
3:00:01 with
3:00:02 him
3:00:03 whoever
3:00:04 see
3:00:04 him
3:00:05 in
3:00:05 person
3:00:06 we
3:00:07 keep
3:00:07 in
3:00:07 touch
3:00:08 we
3:00:09 sometimes
3:00:10 communicate
3:00:12 but
3:00:12 we
3:00:12 are
3:00:12 not
3:00:13 close
3:00:13 I
3:00:14 still
3:00:14 I
3:00:14 think
3:00:15 what
3:00:15 he
3:00:15 did
3:00:15 is
3:00:17 laudable
3:00:19 I
3:00:19 hope
3:00:19 someday
3:00:20 we
3:00:20 meet
3:00:21 you
3:00:21 yourself
3:00:21 have
3:00:22 faced
3:00:25 the
3:00:25 full
3:00:26 force
3:00:26 of
3:00:27 various
3:00:28 governments
3:00:28 intelligence
3:00:29 agencies
3:00:32 is
3:00:32 there
3:00:32 any
3:00:33 intelligence
3:00:33 agency
3:00:34 you’re
3:00:34 afraid
3:00:34 of
3:00:35 any
3:00:35 government
3:00:35 you’re
3:00:35 afraid
3:00:36 of
3:00:37 I
3:00:37 think
3:00:38 they’re
3:00:38 all
3:00:38 equally
3:00:39 should
3:00:39 be
3:00:39 equally
3:00:39 afraid
3:00:40 of
3:00:40 or
3:00:40 equally
3:00:41 not
3:00:41 afraid
3:00:41 of
3:00:42 in a
3:00:42 way
3:00:44 it’s
3:00:44 it’s
3:00:44 not
3:00:44 that
3:00:45 this
3:00:45 intelligence
3:00:46 service
3:00:46 can
3:00:46 kill
3:00:46 you
3:00:46 and
3:00:46 the
3:00:47 other
3:00:47 can’t
3:00:47 kill
3:00:47 you
3:00:48 they
3:00:48 all
3:00:48 can
3:00:49 kill
3:00:49 you
3:00:49 I
3:00:49 guess
3:00:50 they
3:00:50 all
3:00:50 can
3:00:50 kill
3:00:50 me
3:00:51 one
3:00:51 way
3:00:51 or
3:00:51 the
3:00:51 other
3:00:53 but
3:00:53 it’s
3:00:54 a matter
3:00:54 of
3:00:54 whether
3:00:54 I’m
3:00:54 afraid
3:00:55 of
3:00:55 death
3:00:56 this
3:00:56 goes
3:00:56 back
3:00:56 to
3:00:56 the
3:00:57 beginning
3:00:57 of
3:00:57 our
3:00:58 conversation
3:00:58 I
3:00:58 think
3:00:59 multiple
3:00:59 times
3:01:01 so
3:01:01 you’re
3:01:01 in
3:01:01 general
3:01:02 fearless
3:01:02 in the
3:01:02 face
3:01:03 of
3:01:03 the
3:01:03 pressure
3:01:04 that
3:01:04 would
3:01:04 be
3:01:05 a
3:01:05 very
3:01:05 bold
3:01:05 statement
3:01:06 but
3:01:06 I
3:01:07 proved
3:01:07 to
3:01:07 be
3:01:07 quite
3:01:07 stress
3:01:08 resilient
3:01:09 and
3:01:10 it’s
3:01:10 not
3:01:10 that
3:01:10 you
3:01:11 don’t
3:01:11 have
3:01:11 fear
3:01:12 you
3:01:12 can
3:01:12 have
3:01:13 fear
3:01:14 but
3:01:14 you
3:01:15 overcome
3:01:15 this
3:01:15 fear
3:01:23 I
3:01:23 don’t
3:01:24 think
3:01:24 there
3:01:24 is
3:01:25 anything
3:01:26 at
3:01:26 this
3:01:27 point
3:01:27 that
3:01:28 can
3:01:28 happen
3:01:29 to
3:01:30 change
3:01:31 the
3:01:31 way
3:01:31 I
3:01:31 am
3:01:33 so
3:01:33 you
3:01:33 went
3:01:33 through
3:01:33 a
3:01:34 lot
3:01:34 in
3:01:34 from
3:01:35 2011
3:01:35 to
3:01:36 2014
3:01:37 government
3:01:37 pressure
3:01:37 that
3:01:38 you
3:01:38 refused
3:01:39 to
3:01:39 give
3:01:39 into
3:01:40 that
3:01:40 led
3:01:41 you
3:01:41 to
3:01:41 create
3:01:42 telegram
3:01:43 and
3:01:44 let
3:01:44 go
3:01:44 of
3:01:45 VK
3:01:46 and
3:01:46 then
3:01:46 in
3:01:48 2018
3:01:50 Russia
3:01:50 and
3:01:51 Iran
3:01:52 decided
3:01:52 to
3:01:52 ban
3:01:53 telegram
3:01:54 that
3:01:54 was
3:01:54 another
3:01:55 example
3:01:55 of
3:01:55 pressure
3:01:56 can
3:01:56 you
3:01:56 take
3:01:57 me
3:01:57 through
3:01:57 that
3:01:57 saga
3:01:57 in
3:01:58 2018
3:02:00 so
3:02:00 in
3:02:01 2018
3:02:01 telegram
3:02:02 started
3:02:02 to
3:02:03 become
3:02:03 popular
3:02:03 I
3:02:04 think
3:02:04 we
3:02:04 had
3:02:04 something
3:02:05 like
3:02:08 200
3:02:08 million
3:02:09 users
3:02:13 and
3:02:13 it
3:02:13 increasingly
3:02:14 became
3:02:14 popular
3:02:14 in
3:02:15 places
3:02:15 like
3:02:16 Iran
3:02:16 and
3:02:16 Russia
3:02:18 and
3:02:18 other
3:02:18 countries
3:02:19 where
3:02:20 sometimes
3:02:23 people
3:02:25 have
3:02:25 something
3:02:26 to hide
3:02:26 from the
3:02:26 government
3:02:30 in
3:02:30 Iran
3:02:31 people
3:02:31 used
3:02:32 telegram
3:02:32 to
3:02:33 protest
3:02:34 against
3:02:34 the
3:02:34 government
3:02:36 they
3:02:36 had
3:02:36 these
3:02:36 huge
3:02:37 channels
3:02:38 that
3:02:39 would
3:02:39 they
3:02:39 would
3:02:40 use
3:02:40 to
3:02:40 organize
3:02:42 the
3:02:43 protests
3:02:45 and
3:02:46 eventually
3:02:46 the
3:02:46 government
3:02:47 couldn’t
3:02:47 keep
3:02:47 up
3:02:49 they
3:02:49 decided
3:02:50 to
3:02:50 ban
3:02:50 telegram
3:02:53 people
3:02:53 would
3:02:54 still
3:02:54 keep
3:02:54 using
3:02:54 it
3:02:55 though
3:02:55 using
3:02:56 VPNs
3:02:57 it
3:02:58 didn’t
3:02:58 help
3:02:58 the
3:02:59 government
3:03:03 invested
3:03:04 a lot
3:03:04 in
3:03:05 coming up
3:03:06 with their
3:03:06 own
3:03:07 messaging
3:03:07 app
3:03:08 they
3:03:08 had
3:03:09 several
3:03:09 teams
3:03:10 competing
3:03:12 for the
3:03:12 title of
3:03:12 the
3:03:13 national
3:03:13 Iranian
3:03:14 messaging
3:03:14 app
3:03:16 all
3:03:16 these
3:03:16 apps
3:03:16 failed
3:03:17 people
3:03:18 still
3:03:18 prefer
3:03:19 telegram
3:03:20 interesting
3:03:20 Iran
3:03:20 banned
3:03:21 telegram
3:03:21 but
3:03:23 whatsapp
3:03:24 wasn’t
3:03:24 banned
3:03:26 or at
3:03:26 least
3:03:26 they
3:03:27 banned
3:03:27 whatsapp
3:03:28 soon
3:03:28 after
3:03:30 at
3:03:30 the
3:03:30 same
3:03:31 time
3:03:32 starting
3:03:33 in
3:03:33 mid
3:03:34 2017
3:03:34 or
3:03:35 late
3:03:35 2017
3:03:36 russia
3:03:37 demanded
3:03:37 that
3:03:38 telegram
3:03:39 hands
3:03:39 them
3:03:40 the
3:03:41 encryption
3:03:41 keys
3:03:42 they
3:03:42 thought
3:03:43 these
3:03:43 things
3:03:44 exist
3:03:44 something
3:03:45 that
3:03:45 would
3:03:45 allow
3:03:46 them
3:03:46 to
3:03:46 read
3:03:47 messages
3:03:48 of
3:03:48 every
3:03:49 person
3:03:49 on
3:03:49 telegram
3:03:50 or
3:03:50 at
3:03:51 least
3:03:51 every
3:03:51 person
3:03:51 on
3:03:52 telegram
3:03:52 in
3:03:52 russia
3:03:54 and
3:03:54 we
3:03:55 told
3:03:55 them
3:03:56 it’s
3:03:57 impossible
3:03:58 if
3:03:58 you
3:03:58 have
3:03:58 to
3:03:59 ban
3:03:59 us
3:03:59 ban
3:03:59 us
3:04:01 and
3:04:01 this
3:04:01 is
3:04:01 what
3:04:01 they
3:04:02 ended
3:04:02 up
3:04:02 doing
3:04:05 in
3:04:05 spring
3:04:06 2018
3:04:08 and
3:04:08 that
3:04:08 was
3:04:08 quite
3:04:09 fun
3:04:09 because
3:04:11 they
3:04:11 were
3:04:11 trying
3:04:12 to
3:04:12 block
3:04:12 our
3:04:12 IP
3:04:13 addresses
3:04:14 but
3:04:14 we
3:04:14 were
3:04:15 prepared
3:04:15 for
3:04:15 that
3:04:18 and
3:04:18 we
3:04:18 came
3:04:19 up
3:04:19 with
3:04:19 this
3:04:19 technology
3:04:20 that
3:04:20 allowed
3:04:20 us
3:04:21 to
3:04:22 rotate
3:04:22 IP
3:04:23 addresses
3:04:24 replacing
3:04:24 them
3:04:24 with
3:04:25 new
3:04:25 ones
3:04:26 every
3:04:27 time
3:04:27 the
3:04:27 sensor
3:04:29 blocks
3:04:30 our
3:04:31 existing
3:04:32 addresses
3:04:33 and
3:04:33 then
3:04:34 it was
3:04:34 completely
3:04:35 automated
3:04:35 we
3:04:36 had
3:04:37 millions
3:04:38 of
3:04:38 IP
3:04:38 addresses
3:04:39 would
3:04:39 be
3:04:39 burning
3:04:40 through
3:04:40 them
3:04:42 we
3:04:42 set up
3:04:43 this
3:04:44 movement
3:04:44 called
3:04:44 digital
3:04:45 resistance
3:04:46 when
3:04:47 system
3:04:48 administrators
3:04:48 and
3:04:48 engineers
3:04:50 all around
3:04:51 the world
3:04:51 both inside
3:04:52 and outside
3:04:52 Russia
3:04:53 could set
3:04:53 up
3:04:53 their
3:04:53 own
3:04:54 proxy
3:04:54 servers
3:04:56 and
3:04:56 their
3:04:56 own
3:04:56 IP
3:04:57 addresses
3:04:57 for
3:04:57 Telegram
3:04:58 to
3:04:59 rely
3:04:59 on
3:05:00 in
3:05:00 order
3:05:01 to
3:05:01 bypass
3:05:02 censorship
3:05:03 we
3:05:03 ended
3:05:04 up
3:05:04 spending
3:05:05 millions
3:05:05 of
3:05:06 dollars
3:05:06 on
3:05:07 that
3:05:08 and
3:05:09 as a
3:05:09 result
3:05:11 the
3:05:11 sensor
3:05:12 got
3:05:12 crazy
3:05:13 there
3:05:13 there
3:05:14 would
3:05:14 ban
3:05:15 IP
3:05:15 addresses
3:05:15 and
3:05:16 larger
3:05:16 subnets
3:05:17 of IP
3:05:17 addresses
3:05:17 than
3:05:20 huge
3:05:20 subnets
3:05:21 which
3:05:22 resulted
3:05:22 in a
3:05:23 weird
3:05:23 situation
3:05:23 where
3:05:24 parts
3:05:24 of
3:05:24 the
3:05:25 country’s
3:05:25 infrastructure
3:05:26 started
3:05:27 to go
3:05:27 down
3:05:28 like
3:05:28 people
3:05:29 were
3:05:29 trying
3:05:29 to
3:05:30 pay
3:05:30 for
3:05:30 groceries
3:05:31 in
3:05:31 the
3:05:32 supermarkets
3:05:32 and
3:05:34 nothing
3:05:34 would
3:05:35 work
3:05:36 because
3:05:37 the
3:05:37 Russian
3:05:37 sensor
3:05:38 blocked
3:05:38 too
3:05:38 many
3:05:38 IP
3:05:39 addresses
3:05:39 and
3:05:40 some
3:05:40 of
3:05:40 the
3:05:40 subnets
3:05:41 were
3:05:41 used
3:05:42 to
3:05:42 host
3:05:44 other
3:05:45 unrelated
3:05:45 services
3:05:47 even
3:05:47 some
3:05:47 Russian
3:05:48 social
3:05:49 networks
3:05:49 and
3:05:50 media
3:05:50 got
3:05:51 affected
3:05:52 banks
3:05:54 so
3:05:54 they
3:05:54 had
3:05:55 to
3:05:56 start
3:05:56 being
3:05:57 more
3:05:57 selective
3:05:57 in
3:05:57 how
3:05:58 they
3:05:58 combat
3:06:00 our
3:06:01 anti-censorship
3:06:01 tools
3:06:03 the
3:06:04 biggest
3:06:04 resistance
3:06:05 we got
3:06:05 at the
3:06:06 time
3:06:06 was
3:06:06 from
3:06:06 Apple
3:06:08 Apple
3:06:09 didn’t
3:06:09 allow
3:06:09 us
3:06:10 to
3:06:12 update
3:06:13 Telegram
3:06:13 in the
3:06:14 App Store
3:06:15 saying
3:06:16 for
3:06:17 at least
3:06:17 four weeks
3:06:19 that
3:06:20 we have
3:06:20 to
3:06:21 come to
3:06:22 an agreement
3:06:22 with Russia
3:06:23 first
3:06:23 we said
3:06:24 it’s not
3:06:24 possible
3:06:26 they said
3:06:26 we will
3:06:27 allow you
3:06:27 to
3:06:28 push
3:06:29 your
3:06:30 update
3:06:31 for
3:06:31 Telegram
3:06:32 worldwide
3:06:33 except
3:06:33 for
3:06:33 Russia
3:06:35 we
3:06:35 didn’t
3:06:35 want
3:06:35 to
3:06:35 do
3:06:36 that
3:06:37 almost
3:06:37 lost
3:06:38 hope
3:06:38 at some
3:06:39 point
3:06:40 I
3:06:40 said
3:06:41 maybe
3:06:43 this
3:06:43 is
3:06:43 the
3:06:43 only
3:06:43 way
3:06:44 maybe
3:06:44 we
3:06:44 should
3:06:45 leave
3:06:45 the
3:06:45 Russian
3:06:45 market
3:06:47 stop
3:06:48 allowing
3:06:49 users
3:06:49 from
3:06:49 Russia
3:06:50 to
3:06:50 download
3:06:50 the
3:06:50 app
3:06:50 from
3:06:51 the
3:06:51 App Store
3:06:52 which
3:06:52 should
3:06:52 mean
3:06:53 it’s
3:06:53 over
3:06:58 we
3:06:58 helped
3:06:59 organize
3:06:59 certain
3:07:00 protests
3:07:00 in
3:07:01 defense
3:07:01 of
3:07:02 telegram
3:07:02 and
3:07:02 privacy
3:07:03 and
3:07:03 freedom
3:07:03 of
3:07:03 speech
3:07:04 in
3:07:04 2018
3:07:04 in
3:07:05 Moscow
3:07:06 there
3:07:06 was
3:07:07 hilarious
3:07:07 people
3:07:08 flying
3:07:08 paper
3:07:09 airplanes
3:07:09 I
3:07:10 saw
3:07:10 that
3:07:12 and
3:07:12 at
3:07:13 some
3:07:13 point
3:07:13 I
3:07:13 decided
3:07:14 I
3:07:14 have
3:07:14 to
3:07:14 make
3:07:14 a
3:07:14 statement
3:07:15 I
3:07:15 have
3:07:15 to
3:07:15 say
3:07:16 that
3:07:16 Apple
3:07:17 sided
3:07:17 with
3:07:17 the
3:07:17 sensor
3:07:19 that
3:07:20 we’re
3:07:20 trying
3:07:20 to
3:07:20 do
3:07:20 the
3:07:21 right
3:07:21 thing
3:07:21 here
3:07:22 but
3:07:23 without
3:07:24 Apple
3:07:25 we
3:07:25 can’t
3:07:25 do
3:07:26 much
3:07:29 because
3:07:29 people
3:07:30 can’t
3:07:30 download
3:07:30 your
3:07:30 app
3:07:31 anymore
3:07:35 I
3:07:35 published
3:07:35 it
3:07:35 in
3:07:36 my
3:07:36 channel
3:07:38 and
3:07:38 then
3:07:38 New York
3:07:38 Times
3:07:39 picked
3:07:39 it
3:07:39 up
3:07:39 with
3:07:40 the
3:07:41 picture
3:07:41 of
3:07:42 the
3:07:42 protesters
3:07:43 flying
3:07:43 paper
3:07:44 airplanes
3:07:45 Apple
3:07:45 was
3:07:46 criticized
3:07:47 in
3:07:47 the
3:07:47 story
3:07:49 and
3:07:49 I
3:07:49 thought
3:07:50 well
3:07:52 Apple
3:07:52 should
3:07:53 probably
3:07:55 come
3:07:55 back to
3:07:55 the right
3:07:56 side of
3:07:56 history
3:07:56 here
3:07:58 and I
3:07:58 waited
3:07:58 for
3:07:59 one
3:07:59 day
3:07:59 and
3:07:59 two
3:08:00 days
3:08:02 in
3:08:02 the
3:08:02 meantime
3:08:04 since
3:08:04 we’ve
3:08:04 been
3:08:04 unable
3:08:05 to
3:08:05 update
3:08:05 Telegram
3:08:06 for
3:08:06 more
3:08:06 than
3:08:06 a
3:08:06 month
3:08:08 it
3:08:09 started
3:08:09 to
3:08:12 fall
3:08:12 apart
3:08:14 because
3:08:16 the
3:08:16 new
3:08:16 version
3:08:17 of
3:08:17 iOS
3:08:17 came
3:08:18 out
3:08:20 and
3:08:20 it
3:08:20 made
3:08:22 the
3:08:22 old
3:08:23 versions
3:08:23 of
3:08:23 Telegram
3:08:24 obsolete
3:08:25 some
3:08:25 features
3:08:25 that
3:08:26 used
3:08:26 to
3:08:26 work
3:08:26 stopped
3:08:27 working
3:08:28 and
3:08:29 users
3:08:29 all
3:08:29 over
3:08:30 the
3:08:30 world
3:08:31 started
3:08:31 to
3:08:32 suffer
3:08:33 people
3:08:33 that
3:08:34 had
3:08:34 nothing
3:08:34 to
3:08:34 do
3:08:35 with
3:08:35 Russia
3:08:36 from
3:08:36 other
3:08:36 parts
3:08:36 of
3:08:37 the
3:08:37 world
3:08:38 experienced
3:08:39 issues
3:08:40 with
3:08:40 Telegram
3:08:42 so it was
3:08:43 really serious
3:08:43 and I
3:08:44 said to my
3:08:44 team
3:08:45 you know what
3:08:45 if
3:08:47 by 6pm
3:08:47 today
3:08:48 I think
3:08:48 it was a
3:08:48 Friday
3:08:52 nothing
3:08:52 changes
3:08:53 and Apple
3:08:53 doesn’t
3:08:53 allow us
3:08:54 to
3:08:55 push the
3:08:56 version of
3:08:56 Telegram
3:08:56 through
3:08:59 let’s just
3:08:59 forget about
3:08:59 the Russian
3:09:00 market
3:09:01 let’s
3:09:01 keep
3:09:01 going
3:09:02 because
3:09:02 the rest
3:09:02 of the
3:09:02 world
3:09:03 is more
3:09:03 important
3:09:04 it’s
3:09:04 sad
3:09:04 but
3:09:05 what
3:09:05 can
3:09:05 we
3:09:05 do
3:09:06 which
3:09:07 by the
3:09:07 way
3:09:07 removes
3:09:08 all the
3:09:08 people
3:09:08 that
3:09:09 want to
3:09:09 protest
3:09:10 all the
3:09:10 people
3:09:10 that
3:09:10 want to
3:09:10 talk
3:09:11 in
3:09:11 Russia
3:09:11 and
3:09:12 removes
3:09:12 their
3:09:12 ability
3:09:12 to have
3:09:13 a
3:09:13 voice
3:09:14 in
3:09:14 the
3:09:14 most
3:09:14 popular
3:09:15 messaging
3:09:15 app
3:09:16 in
3:09:16 that
3:09:16 part
3:09:16 of
3:09:16 the
3:09:17 world
3:09:18 yes
3:09:18 magically
3:09:19 15
3:09:20 minutes
3:09:20 to
3:09:21 the
3:09:21 time
3:09:21 I
3:09:22 was
3:09:22 planning
3:09:22 to
3:09:23 remove
3:09:23 Telegram
3:09:24 from
3:09:24 the
3:09:24 Russian
3:09:25 app
3:09:25 store
3:09:25 in
3:09:25 order
3:09:25 to
3:09:26 proceed
3:09:27 globally
3:09:28 Apple
3:09:29 reached
3:09:30 out
3:09:30 to
3:09:30 us
3:09:32 and
3:09:33 said
3:09:33 it’s
3:09:33 okay
3:09:35 your
3:09:36 update
3:09:36 is
3:09:37 approved
3:09:38 and
3:09:38 we
3:09:38 managed
3:09:39 to
3:09:41 keep
3:09:41 playing
3:09:43 this
3:09:44 hide-and-seek
3:09:45 game
3:09:46 with the
3:09:46 sensor
3:09:47 bypassing
3:09:48 censorship
3:09:49 through
3:09:49 digital
3:09:50 resistance
3:09:51 in
3:09:52 Iran
3:09:52 it was
3:09:52 a little
3:09:52 bit
3:09:53 different
3:09:54 because
3:09:54 we
3:09:55 realized
3:09:56 it
3:09:56 would
3:09:56 have
3:09:57 been
3:09:57 too
3:09:57 expensive
3:09:58 to
3:09:59 try
3:09:59 to
3:10:01 come
3:10:01 up
3:10:01 with
3:10:01 all
3:10:02 these
3:10:02 IP
3:10:02 addresses
3:10:04 and
3:10:04 in
3:10:04 addition
3:10:05 it
3:10:05 was
3:10:07 not
3:10:07 clear
3:10:07 whether
3:10:08 we
3:10:08 wouldn’t
3:10:08 be
3:10:08 in
3:10:09 violation
3:10:09 of
3:10:10 the
3:10:10 sanctions
3:10:10 regime
3:10:12 so
3:10:12 we
3:10:12 did
3:10:13 something
3:10:13 else
3:10:14 we
3:10:15 created
3:10:16 an
3:10:16 economic
3:10:17 incentive
3:10:18 for
3:10:20 people
3:10:20 who
3:10:20 would
3:10:20 set up
3:10:21 proxy
3:10:21 servers
3:10:21 for
3:10:22 Telegram
3:10:23 any
3:10:25 person
3:10:26 say
3:10:26 an
3:10:27 Iranian
3:10:28 engineer
3:10:29 could
3:10:29 come up
3:10:30 with a
3:10:30 proxy
3:10:30 server
3:10:31 distribute
3:10:32 its
3:10:32 address
3:10:34 among
3:10:34 users
3:10:35 in
3:10:35 Iran
3:10:36 and
3:10:36 whoever
3:10:37 connected
3:10:37 through
3:10:38 the
3:10:39 proxy
3:10:39 of
3:10:39 this
3:10:41 person
3:10:41 would
3:10:42 be
3:10:42 able
3:10:42 to
3:10:42 see
3:10:43 a
3:10:43 pinned
3:10:44 chat
3:10:45 an
3:10:45 ad
3:10:47 placed
3:10:47 there
3:10:47 by
3:10:48 the
3:10:48 system
3:10:48 administrator
3:10:49 the
3:10:49 owner
3:10:49 of
3:10:49 the
3:10:50 proxy
3:10:51 and
3:10:51 this
3:10:51 is
3:10:52 how
3:10:53 you
3:10:53 can
3:10:53 monetize
3:10:53 your
3:10:54 proxy
3:10:54 so
3:10:54 it
3:10:55 created
3:10:55 this
3:10:59 market
3:11:02 which
3:11:03 resulted
3:11:04 in
3:11:05 Iran
3:11:05 fixing
3:11:06 their
3:11:06 own
3:11:07 problem
3:11:09 and
3:11:09 as a
3:11:10 result
3:11:10 we
3:11:10 kept
3:11:12 millions
3:11:12 or
3:11:12 maybe
3:11:13 tens
3:11:13 of
3:11:13 millions
3:11:14 of
3:11:14 Iranian
3:11:14 users
3:11:17 up
3:11:17 until
3:11:17 this
3:11:17 day
3:11:18 I think
3:11:18 Telegram
3:11:19 is still
3:11:19 banned
3:11:19 in Iran
3:11:21 today
3:11:22 but
3:11:22 we
3:11:23 probably
3:11:23 have
3:11:25 something
3:11:25 like
3:11:25 50
3:11:26 million
3:11:27 people
3:11:28 relying
3:11:28 on
3:11:28 Telegram
3:11:28 from
3:11:29 that
3:11:30 country
3:11:30 so
3:11:30 that
3:11:30 people
3:11:31 find
3:11:31 a
3:11:31 way
3:11:31 around
3:11:32 people
3:11:32 find
3:11:32 a
3:11:32 way
3:11:32 around
3:11:34 that’s
3:11:34 ingenious
3:11:35 that’s
3:11:35 really
3:11:35 great
3:11:36 to
3:11:36 hear
3:11:39 I
3:11:39 have
3:11:39 to
3:11:40 ask
3:11:40 you
3:11:40 about
3:11:40 this
3:11:41 after
3:11:41 having
3:11:41 spent
3:11:41 many
3:11:42 days
3:11:42 with
3:11:42 you
3:11:43 I
3:11:44 learned
3:11:44 of
3:11:44 something
3:11:44 that
3:11:44 you’ve
3:11:45 never
3:11:45 talked
3:11:45 about
3:11:47 at
3:11:47 the
3:11:48 time
3:11:48 have
3:11:48 not
3:11:49 talked
3:11:49 about
3:11:49 to
3:11:49 this
3:11:50 day
3:11:51 that
3:11:52 there
3:11:52 was
3:11:52 an
3:11:52 assassination
3:11:53 attempt
3:11:53 on
3:11:54 you
3:11:55 using
3:11:55 what
3:11:55 appears
3:11:56 to be
3:11:56 poisoning
3:11:57 in
3:11:58 2018
3:12:00 I
3:12:00 think
3:12:00 to
3:12:00 me
3:12:00 it
3:12:01 showed
3:12:01 the
3:12:02 seriousness
3:12:02 of
3:12:03 this
3:12:03 fight
3:12:03 to
3:12:04 uphold
3:12:04 the
3:12:05 freedom
3:12:05 of
3:12:05 speech
3:12:06 for
3:12:07 everyone
3:12:09 for
3:12:09 all
3:12:09 people
3:12:09 of
3:12:09 earth
3:12:10 that
3:12:10 you’re
3:12:11 doing
3:12:13 I
3:12:13 have
3:12:13 to
3:12:14 say
3:12:14 it
3:12:14 would
3:12:14 mean
3:12:14 a
3:12:14 lot
3:12:15 to
3:12:15 me
3:12:15 if
3:12:15 you
3:12:15 tell
3:12:15 me
3:12:16 this
3:12:16 story
3:12:17 well
3:12:17 this
3:12:17 is
3:12:18 something
3:12:18 I
3:12:19 never
3:12:19 talked
3:12:19 about
3:12:20 publicly
3:12:20 because
3:12:20 I
3:12:21 didn’t
3:12:21 want
3:12:21 people
3:12:21 to
3:12:22 freak
3:12:22 out
3:12:24 particularly
3:12:24 at the
3:12:24 time
3:12:25 it was
3:12:26 spring
3:12:27 2018
3:12:31 we were
3:12:32 trying to
3:12:33 raise funds
3:12:33 for
3:12:34 ton
3:12:35 a
3:12:35 blockchain
3:12:35 project
3:12:36 working with
3:12:37 all kinds
3:12:37 of
3:12:39 VCs
3:12:40 and investors
3:12:42 in the
3:12:43 meantime
3:12:44 we had a
3:12:45 couple of
3:12:45 countries
3:12:46 trying to
3:12:46 ban
3:12:47 telegram
3:12:48 so
3:12:48 so
3:12:48 it
3:12:49 wasn’t
3:12:49 exactly
3:12:49 the
3:12:50 best
3:12:50 moment
3:12:51 for
3:12:51 me
3:12:51 to
3:12:52 start
3:12:53 sharing
3:12:54 anything
3:12:54 related
3:12:54 to
3:12:54 my
3:12:55 personal
3:12:55 health
3:12:58 but
3:12:59 that
3:13:00 was
3:13:00 something
3:13:00 that
3:13:02 is
3:13:02 hard
3:13:02 to
3:13:03 forget
3:13:05 that
3:13:05 you know
3:13:06 I
3:13:06 never
3:13:06 fall
3:13:06 ill
3:13:06 I
3:13:07 believe
3:13:08 I
3:13:08 have
3:13:08 perfect
3:13:08 health
3:13:10 I
3:13:10 very
3:13:11 rarely
3:13:11 have
3:13:11 headaches
3:13:14 or bad
3:13:14 cough
3:13:16 I
3:13:16 don’t
3:13:16 take
3:13:16 pills
3:13:17 because
3:13:17 I
3:13:17 don’t
3:13:17 have
3:13:17 to
3:13:17 take
3:13:18 pills
3:13:20 and
3:13:20 that
3:13:20 was
3:13:20 the
3:13:20 only
3:13:21 instant
3:13:21 in
3:13:21 my
3:13:21 life
3:13:22 when
3:13:23 I
3:13:23 think
3:13:25 I
3:13:25 was
3:13:26 dying
3:13:27 I
3:13:27 came
3:13:28 back
3:13:28 home
3:13:29 opened
3:13:30 the door
3:13:30 of my
3:13:30 townhouse
3:13:31 the place
3:13:31 I rented
3:13:32 I had
3:13:33 this weird
3:13:34 neighbor
3:13:35 he left
3:13:36 something for
3:13:36 me there
3:13:37 around
3:13:38 the door
3:13:42 and
3:13:43 one
3:13:43 hour
3:13:44 after
3:13:45 when I
3:13:45 was
3:13:45 already
3:13:46 in my
3:13:46 bed
3:13:47 so
3:13:48 I
3:13:48 was
3:13:48 living
3:13:48 alone
3:13:50 I
3:13:50 felt
3:13:51 very
3:13:51 bad
3:13:53 I
3:13:54 felt
3:13:57 pain
3:13:57 all over
3:13:57 my
3:13:58 body
3:14:02 I
3:14:03 tried
3:14:03 to
3:14:03 get
3:14:03 up
3:14:04 and
3:14:06 go
3:14:06 to
3:14:06 the
3:14:07 bathroom
3:14:09 but
3:14:09 while
3:14:09 I
3:14:09 was
3:14:10 going
3:14:10 there
3:14:11 I
3:14:12 felt
3:14:12 that
3:14:13 functions
3:14:13 of my
3:14:14 body
3:14:14 started
3:14:14 to
3:14:15 switch
3:14:15 off
3:14:16 first
3:14:16 the
3:14:18 eyesight
3:14:18 and
3:14:19 hearing
3:14:21 then
3:14:21 I
3:14:21 had
3:14:22 difficulty
3:14:22 breathing
3:14:24 everything
3:14:25 accompanied
3:14:25 by
3:14:29 very
3:14:30 acute
3:14:30 pain
3:14:33 heart
3:14:34 stomach
3:14:36 or
3:14:36 blood
3:14:37 vessels
3:14:39 it
3:14:39 was
3:14:39 it’s
3:14:39 a
3:14:40 difficult
3:14:40 thing
3:14:40 to
3:14:41 explain
3:14:43 but
3:14:43 one
3:14:44 thing
3:14:44 I
3:14:44 was
3:14:44 certain
3:14:44 about
3:14:45 is
3:14:45 yeah
3:14:45 this
3:14:45 is
3:14:46 it
3:14:46 you
3:14:47 thought
3:14:47 you
3:14:47 were
3:14:47 going
3:14:47 to
3:14:47 die
3:14:48 yeah
3:14:48 this
3:14:49 is
3:14:49 it
3:14:49 because
3:14:50 I
3:14:50 couldn’t
3:14:50 breathe
3:14:50 I
3:14:51 couldn’t
3:14:51 see
3:14:51 anything
3:14:52 was
3:14:53 very
3:14:53 painful
3:14:54 I
3:14:54 think
3:14:54 it’s
3:14:55 over
3:14:56 I
3:14:57 thought
3:14:57 well
3:14:57 I
3:14:58 had
3:14:58 a
3:14:59 good
3:14:59 life
3:14:59 I
3:15:00 managed
3:15:00 to
3:15:00 accomplish
3:15:01 a few
3:15:02 things
3:15:05 and then
3:15:05 I
3:15:05 collapsed
3:15:05 on the
3:15:06 floor
3:15:06 but I
3:15:06 don’t
3:15:06 remember
3:15:07 it
3:15:09 because
3:15:10 the
3:15:10 pain
3:15:11 covered
3:15:11 everything
3:15:14 I
3:15:14 found
3:15:15 myself
3:15:17 on the
3:15:17 floor
3:15:17 the next
3:15:18 day
3:15:18 it was
3:15:19 already
3:15:19 bright
3:15:22 and
3:15:23 I
3:15:23 couldn’t
3:15:24 stand up
3:15:24 I was
3:15:24 super
3:15:25 weak
3:15:27 I
3:15:27 looked
3:15:27 at my
3:15:29 arms
3:15:31 at my
3:15:31 body
3:15:33 blood
3:15:33 vessels
3:15:34 were broken
3:15:34 all over
3:15:35 my body
3:15:36 something
3:15:36 like this
3:15:36 never
3:15:37 happened
3:15:37 to me
3:15:38 I
3:15:39 couldn’t
3:15:39 walk
3:15:39 for
3:15:39 two
3:15:39 weeks
3:15:40 after
3:15:41 I
3:15:42 stayed
3:15:42 at my
3:15:43 place
3:15:45 and
3:15:45 I
3:15:46 decided
3:15:46 not to
3:15:46 tell
3:15:47 most of
3:15:47 my
3:15:48 team
3:15:48 about
3:15:48 it
3:15:48 because
3:15:50 again
3:15:50 I
3:15:51 didn’t
3:15:51 want
3:15:51 them
3:15:51 to
3:15:52 worry
3:15:53 but
3:15:53 it
3:15:54 was
3:15:54 tough
3:15:55 that
3:15:55 was
3:15:55 tough
3:15:57 did
3:15:57 that
3:15:58 make
3:15:58 you
3:16:02 afraid
3:16:04 of
3:16:04 the
3:16:04 road
3:16:05 you’re
3:16:05 walking
3:16:08 meaning
3:16:09 all the
3:16:09 governments
3:16:10 all the
3:16:11 intelligence
3:16:12 agencies
3:16:12 all the
3:16:13 people
3:16:13 like we
3:16:13 mentioned
3:16:14 it’s like
3:16:15 you’re
3:16:16 playing a
3:16:16 video game
3:16:18 you started
3:16:19 with VK
3:16:19 where you’re
3:16:20 just trying
3:16:20 to build
3:16:20 a thing
3:16:21 that scales
3:16:22 and all
3:16:22 of a
3:16:22 sudden
3:16:22 you find
3:16:23 out
3:16:24 there’s
3:16:24 DDoS
3:16:25 attacks
3:16:26 attacking
3:16:26 the
3:16:28 security
3:16:29 the integrity
3:16:29 of the
3:16:30 infrastructure
3:16:31 and then
3:16:31 you realize
3:16:32 there’s
3:16:32 politics
3:16:33 and then
3:16:33 you realize
3:16:33 there’s
3:16:34 geopolitics
3:16:36 and all
3:16:37 of these
3:16:38 forces
3:16:38 are
3:16:38 interested
3:16:39 in
3:16:41 controlling
3:16:41 channels
3:16:42 of
3:16:42 communication
3:16:44 and you’re
3:16:44 just
3:16:46 a curious
3:16:47 guy who
3:16:47 created a
3:16:48 platform
3:16:49 for everybody
3:16:49 on earth
3:16:50 to talk
3:16:51 and all
3:16:51 of a sudden
3:16:52 you realize
3:16:54 there’s a lot
3:16:54 of people
3:16:55 attacking you
3:16:59 how did
3:16:59 that change
3:17:00 your view
3:17:01 that make
3:17:01 you more
3:17:02 scared of
3:17:02 the world
3:17:05 interestingly
3:17:05 or not
3:17:06 at all
3:17:07 if anything
3:17:09 I felt
3:17:10 even more
3:17:10 free after
3:17:11 that
3:17:12 it wasn’t
3:17:13 the first
3:17:13 time I
3:17:14 thought I
3:17:14 was going
3:17:14 to die
3:17:18 I had
3:17:22 an experience
3:17:22 when I
3:17:23 assumed
3:17:26 something
3:17:26 bad is
3:17:26 going to
3:17:27 happen to
3:17:27 me
3:17:27 a few
3:17:28 years
3:17:28 before
3:17:28 that
3:17:30 also in
3:17:30 relation
3:17:30 to my
3:17:31 work
3:17:34 but
3:17:36 after you
3:17:37 survive
3:17:38 something like
3:17:38 this
3:17:39 you feel
3:17:39 like you’re
3:17:39 living
3:17:40 on
3:17:40 bonus
3:17:41 time
3:17:42 so
3:17:43 in a way
3:17:44 you died
3:17:44 a long
3:17:45 time ago
3:17:47 and every
3:17:50 new day
3:17:50 you get
3:17:51 is a gift
3:17:52 as a
3:17:52 bonus
3:17:53 yes
3:17:54 and the
3:17:54 first time
3:17:55 you’re
3:17:55 referring to
3:17:56 is that
3:17:57 would that
3:17:57 have to do
3:17:58 with the
3:17:58 with the
3:17:59 complexity
3:17:59 that was
3:17:59 happening
3:18:00 with the
3:18:00 pressure
3:18:01 from the
3:18:02 government
3:18:02 on VK
3:18:04 and then
3:18:04 you had
3:18:04 to figure
3:18:05 out
3:18:06 the increasing
3:18:07 pressure
3:18:07 and you
3:18:07 had to
3:18:07 figure out
3:18:08 what to
3:18:08 do
3:18:08 and
3:18:10 they
3:18:10 you
3:18:11 understood
3:18:11 that
3:18:11 you’re
3:18:12 losing
3:18:12 control
3:18:13 of VK
3:18:13 at that
3:18:13 moment
3:18:14 the
3:18:15 first
3:18:15 of
3:18:16 these
3:18:16 instances
3:18:16 was in
3:18:17 December
3:18:17 2011
3:18:19 December
3:18:19 2011
3:18:20 you had
3:18:20 this huge
3:18:21 protest
3:18:22 on the
3:18:22 streets
3:18:23 of Moscow
3:18:25 they
3:18:27 didn’t
3:18:28 trust
3:18:29 in the
3:18:29 integrity
3:18:29 of the
3:18:30 election
3:18:31 results
3:18:32 to the
3:18:32 state
3:18:33 Duma
3:18:33 in Russia
3:18:35 and
3:18:35 remember
3:18:35 2011
3:18:36 I still
3:18:36 lived in
3:18:36 Russia
3:18:38 running
3:18:39 VK
3:18:39 there was
3:18:39 no
3:18:40 telegram
3:18:42 so the
3:18:43 government
3:18:44 demanded
3:18:45 that we
3:18:46 take down
3:18:47 the
3:18:48 opposition
3:18:49 groups
3:18:49 of
3:18:49 Navalny
3:18:49 from
3:18:50 VK
3:18:51 that
3:18:52 had
3:18:54 hundreds
3:18:54 of
3:18:54 thousands
3:18:55 of
3:18:55 members
3:18:57 and
3:18:58 that
3:18:58 were
3:18:59 used
3:18:59 to
3:19:00 organize
3:19:00 this
3:19:01 protest
3:19:03 and I
3:19:04 very publicly
3:19:04 refused
3:19:04 to do
3:19:05 that
3:19:07 I
3:19:07 just
3:19:09 decided
3:19:10 it’s not
3:19:10 the right
3:19:10 thing
3:19:10 to do
3:19:11 people
3:19:12 have
3:19:12 the
3:19:12 right
3:19:12 to
3:19:13 assemble
3:19:13 and I
3:19:15 mocked
3:19:15 the
3:19:15 prosecutor
3:19:16 who
3:19:16 handed
3:19:16 me
3:19:17 that
3:19:19 demand
3:19:20 I put
3:19:21 out a
3:19:21 scan
3:19:21 of it
3:19:23 and next
3:19:24 to it
3:19:26 a photo
3:19:27 of a
3:19:27 dog
3:19:27 in a
3:19:27 hoodie
3:19:28 with
3:19:28 its
3:19:29 tongue
3:19:29 out
3:19:30 and I
3:19:31 said
3:19:31 this is
3:19:31 my
3:19:31 official
3:19:32 response
3:19:33 to the
3:19:33 prosecutor’s
3:19:34 request
3:19:35 to ban
3:19:35 opposition
3:19:35 groups
3:19:37 that was
3:19:38 very funny
3:19:38 at the
3:19:39 moment
3:19:40 but then
3:19:41 I had
3:19:42 armed
3:19:42 policemen
3:19:44 trying to
3:19:44 get into
3:19:44 my
3:19:46 apartment
3:19:52 and I
3:19:52 thought about
3:19:53 many things
3:19:53 at that
3:19:54 moment
3:19:56 I asked
3:19:56 myself
3:19:58 did I
3:19:58 make the
3:19:58 right
3:19:59 choice
3:20:02 and
3:20:03 I came
3:20:03 to the
3:20:03 conclusion
3:20:04 that I
3:20:04 made the
3:20:04 right
3:20:05 choice
3:20:06 and I
3:20:06 asked
3:20:07 myself
3:20:07 what
3:20:07 would be
3:20:07 the
3:20:07 next
3:20:08 thing
3:20:10 that
3:20:10 would
3:20:11 logically
3:20:11 follow
3:20:12 from
3:20:12 this
3:20:13 and I
3:20:13 realized
3:20:16 they’re
3:20:16 probably
3:20:16 going
3:20:17 to
3:20:18 put me
3:20:18 in
3:20:19 prison
3:20:21 so
3:20:22 what am
3:20:22 I going
3:20:22 to do
3:20:23 about it
3:20:23 I asked
3:20:24 myself
3:20:26 and I
3:20:26 told myself
3:20:27 I’m going
3:20:27 to starve
3:20:28 myself
3:20:30 to death
3:20:30 it’s
3:20:31 something
3:20:31 that
3:20:33 probably
3:20:33 many
3:20:33 men
3:20:34 have
3:20:34 they’re
3:20:35 ready
3:20:35 to
3:20:35 die
3:20:36 for
3:20:37 other
3:20:37 people
3:20:38 or
3:20:38 certain
3:20:39 principles
3:20:39 they
3:20:39 strongly
3:20:40 believe
3:20:40 in
3:20:41 I’m
3:20:41 not
3:20:42 alone
3:20:42 here
3:20:44 I guess
3:20:44 Edward
3:20:44 Snowden
3:20:45 was ready
3:20:45 to die
3:20:46 as well
3:20:47 or some
3:20:47 other
3:20:47 people
3:20:48 like
3:20:48 Assange
3:20:51 also
3:20:51 at that
3:20:52 moment
3:20:52 I realized
3:20:53 there is
3:20:53 no way
3:20:53 to
3:20:54 communicate
3:20:54 securely
3:20:55 I need
3:20:55 to tell
3:20:56 my brother
3:20:56 what’s going
3:20:56 on
3:20:57 they’re
3:20:57 probably
3:20:57 going
3:20:58 after him
3:20:58 how do
3:20:59 I tell
3:20:59 him
3:21:02 without
3:21:03 betraying
3:21:03 him
3:21:04 because
3:21:04 in
3:21:05 2011
3:21:09 remember
3:21:10 whatsapp was
3:21:10 already
3:21:10 there
3:21:11 I think
3:21:11 they launched
3:21:12 in 2009
3:21:14 but
3:21:14 but
3:21:15 it had
3:21:16 zero
3:21:16 encryption
3:21:18 all
3:21:18 messages
3:21:18 were
3:21:19 plain
3:21:19 text
3:21:19 in
3:21:20 transit
3:21:21 meaning
3:21:21 that
3:21:23 even
3:21:23 your
3:21:23 system
3:21:24 administrator
3:21:25 let alone
3:21:26 your carrier
3:21:28 had access
3:21:28 to your
3:21:29 messages
3:21:31 it was
3:21:32 only
3:21:33 after
3:21:33 telegram
3:21:34 started
3:21:35 this push
3:21:35 for
3:21:35 encryption
3:21:36 that
3:21:37 these
3:21:37 other
3:21:37 apps
3:21:39 suddenly
3:21:40 remembered
3:21:41 that
3:21:41 privacy
3:21:42 wasn’t
3:21:42 their
3:21:42 DNA
3:21:45 as
3:21:45 whatsapp
3:21:45 founders
3:21:46 famously
3:21:47 stated
3:21:48 but it
3:21:48 must have
3:21:48 been a
3:21:49 dormant
3:21:49 gene
3:21:51 in 2011
3:21:52 yeah
3:21:53 yeah
3:21:55 in 2011
3:21:55 there was
3:21:56 no way
3:21:58 to send
3:21:59 a message
3:21:59 in a
3:21:59 secure
3:22:00 way
3:22:01 and I
3:22:02 also told
3:22:02 myself
3:22:03 if I’m
3:22:03 going to
3:22:03 survive
3:22:04 this
3:22:05 I’m
3:22:05 definitely
3:22:06 launching
3:22:07 a
3:22:07 secure
3:22:07 messaging
3:22:08 app
3:22:09 somehow
3:22:11 it ended
3:22:11 up not
3:22:12 being too
3:22:12 bad
3:22:13 I was
3:22:14 summoned
3:22:14 to the
3:22:14 prosecutor
3:22:17 answered
3:22:18 some silly
3:22:19 questions
3:22:21 fewer
3:22:22 questions
3:22:22 that I
3:22:22 had to
3:22:23 answer
3:22:25 more
3:22:25 recently
3:22:25 in the
3:22:26 French
3:22:26 investigation
3:22:27 case
3:22:30 but it
3:22:31 was the
3:22:31 beginning
3:22:32 of the
3:22:32 end
3:22:33 it was
3:22:33 clear
3:22:35 that
3:22:38 there’s
3:22:38 no way
3:22:39 I’m going
3:22:40 to be
3:22:40 allowed
3:22:41 to run
3:22:41 VK
3:22:41 the way
3:22:42 I wanted
3:22:42 it to
3:22:42 run
3:22:44 that was
3:22:45 the moment
3:22:46 I
3:22:49 packed
3:22:49 my
3:22:49 backpack
3:22:51 and
3:22:51 just
3:22:52 started
3:22:52 to
3:22:52 wait
3:22:55 just
3:22:56 I
3:22:57 moved
3:22:57 to
3:22:57 hotel
3:22:59 and
3:23:00 realized
3:23:00 any
3:23:01 day
3:23:02 I can
3:23:02 leave
3:23:02 the
3:23:02 country
3:23:02 I
3:23:03 kept
3:23:05 running
3:23:05 VK
3:23:09 I
3:23:09 started
3:23:09 to
3:23:10 design
3:23:10 telegram
3:23:12 and
3:23:13 assembling
3:23:13 the
3:23:13 team
3:23:17 but
3:23:18 I
3:23:18 knew
3:23:19 my
3:23:20 days
3:23:21 in
3:23:21 Russia
3:23:21 were
3:23:22 numbered
3:23:23 first
3:23:23 I
3:23:24 really
3:23:24 have
3:23:24 to
3:23:25 say
3:23:25 for
3:23:25 myself
3:23:26 from
3:23:27 I
3:23:27 think
3:23:29 millions
3:23:29 maybe
3:23:30 hundreds
3:23:30 of
3:23:31 millions
3:23:31 maybe
3:23:31 the
3:23:31 entirety
3:23:32 of
3:23:32 earth
3:23:32 thank
3:23:32 you
3:23:33 for
3:23:34 putting
3:23:34 your
3:23:34 life
3:23:34 on the
3:23:34 line
3:23:35 in
3:23:35 those
3:23:35 cases
3:23:35 I
3:23:35 think
3:23:36 freedom
3:23:36 of
3:23:36 speech
3:23:36 is
3:23:37 fundamental
3:23:37 to
3:23:37 the
3:23:38 flourishing
3:23:38 of
3:23:38 humanity
3:23:38 so
3:23:42 and it
3:23:42 depends
3:23:42 on
3:23:43 people
3:23:45 willing
3:23:45 to put
3:23:46 everything
3:23:46 on the
3:23:46 line
3:23:46 for
3:23:47 their
3:23:47 principles
3:23:48 so
3:23:48 thank
3:23:48 you
3:23:49 quick
3:23:49 pause
3:23:50 I
3:23:51 need a
3:23:51 bathroom
3:23:51 break
3:23:53 all
3:23:53 right
3:23:53 we’re
3:23:54 back
3:23:54 and
3:23:55 once
3:23:55 again
3:23:56 we
3:23:56 had
3:23:56 a
3:23:57 super
3:23:57 long
3:23:58 day
3:23:58 and
3:23:58 the
3:23:58 fact
3:23:58 that
3:23:58 you
3:23:59 would
3:23:59 spend
3:23:59 many
3:24:00 hours
3:24:00 with
3:24:00 me
3:24:01 thank
3:24:01 you
3:24:01 for
3:24:02 powering
3:24:02 through
3:24:03 we got
3:24:03 this
3:24:04 it’s
3:24:04 already
3:24:04 late
3:24:04 at
3:24:04 night
3:24:07 thanks
3:24:07 for
3:24:07 doing
3:24:08 this
3:24:09 okay
3:24:10 so
3:24:13 there
3:24:13 is
3:24:14 increasing
3:24:14 indication
3:24:15 I
3:24:15 think
3:24:16 from
3:24:16 things
3:24:16 I’ve
3:24:17 seen
3:24:17 online
3:24:17 that
3:24:18 Russia
3:24:18 is
3:24:19 considering
3:24:20 banning
3:24:20 telegram
3:24:21 first
3:24:21 all
3:24:21 do
3:24:21 you
3:24:22 think
3:24:22 this
3:24:22 might
3:24:22 happen
3:24:23 and
3:24:23 what
3:24:24 effect
3:24:24 do
3:24:24 you
3:24:24 think
3:24:25 this
3:24:25 might
3:24:25 have
3:24:25 on
3:24:26 humanity
3:24:27 and
3:24:27 in
3:24:27 general
3:24:27 what do
3:24:28 you
3:24:28 think
3:24:28 about
3:24:28 this
3:24:30 it
3:24:30 can
3:24:30 definitely
3:24:30 happen
3:24:31 as you
3:24:31 said
3:24:31 there
3:24:32 are
3:24:32 certain
3:24:32 indications
3:24:33 there
3:24:33 have
3:24:34 been
3:24:34 certain
3:24:35 test
3:24:35 attempts
3:24:36 to
3:24:37 partially
3:24:37 ban
3:24:39 telegram
3:24:39 is
3:24:40 no
3:24:40 longer
3:24:41 accessible
3:24:41 in
3:24:41 parts
3:24:42 of
3:24:42 Russia
3:24:42 such as
3:24:43 Dagestan
3:24:44 and it
3:24:44 will be
3:24:45 incredibly
3:24:45 sad
3:24:46 if
3:24:48 Russia
3:24:49 restores
3:24:49 its
3:24:50 attempts
3:24:50 to
3:24:51 ban
3:24:52 telegram
3:24:52 because
3:24:53 currently
3:24:56 it’s been
3:24:56 used
3:24:57 by its
3:24:57 population
3:24:59 for
3:24:59 all
3:25:00 kinds
3:25:00 of
3:25:01 purposes
3:25:02 not
3:25:02 just
3:25:03 personal
3:25:03 communication
3:25:04 or
3:25:05 economic
3:25:06 business
3:25:07 activities
3:25:08 but
3:25:08 also
3:25:09 it’s
3:25:10 the
3:25:10 only
3:25:11 platform
3:25:12 which
3:25:12 allows
3:25:13 the
3:25:13 Russian
3:25:13 people
3:25:14 to
3:25:15 access
3:25:16 independent
3:25:16 sources
3:25:17 of
3:25:17 information
3:25:18 if
3:25:18 you
3:25:18 think
3:25:19 about
3:25:21 media
3:25:22 outlets
3:25:22 such as
3:25:22 BBC
3:25:23 or
3:25:23 any
3:25:24 other
3:25:26 non-Russian
3:25:26 sources
3:25:27 of
3:25:28 information
3:25:30 they’re
3:25:30 only
3:25:31 accessible
3:25:31 in
3:25:31 Russia
3:25:31 through
3:25:32 telegram
3:25:33 in
3:25:33 the
3:25:34 form
3:25:34 of
3:25:34 telegram
3:25:35 channels
3:25:36 their
3:25:36 websites
3:25:36 are
3:25:37 banned
3:25:38 some
3:25:39 other
3:25:39 social
3:25:39 media
3:25:40 sites
3:25:41 are
3:25:41 banned
3:25:43 and
3:25:43 as
3:25:43 you
3:25:44 said
3:25:44 there
3:25:45 are
3:25:46 indications
3:25:47 that
3:25:47 Russia
3:25:48 is
3:25:50 planning
3:25:50 to
3:25:51 migrate
3:25:52 users
3:25:53 from
3:25:54 existing
3:25:55 messaging
3:25:55 apps
3:25:55 such as
3:25:56 WhatsApp
3:25:56 and
3:25:57 telegram
3:25:58 to
3:25:59 their
3:25:59 own
3:26:00 homegrown
3:26:00 tool
3:26:02 which
3:26:02 would
3:26:03 of course
3:26:03 be
3:26:04 fully
3:26:05 transparent
3:26:06 to the
3:26:06 government
3:26:07 and
3:26:08 wouldn’t
3:26:08 allow
3:26:10 voices
3:26:11 independent
3:26:11 from the
3:26:11 government
3:26:13 to express
3:26:13 themselves
3:26:15 it’s
3:26:16 certainly
3:26:16 an alarming
3:26:16 trend
3:26:19 we
3:26:19 see
3:26:19 we see
3:26:19 these
3:26:19 attempts
3:26:20 in
3:26:21 countries
3:26:22 that are
3:26:22 not
3:26:23 famous
3:26:23 for
3:26:26 protecting
3:26:26 freedom of
3:26:27 speech
3:26:27 but also
3:26:28 increasingly
3:26:29 in countries
3:26:29 that
3:26:31 have been
3:26:31 known to
3:26:32 protect
3:26:32 freedoms
3:26:34 and
3:26:34 this
3:26:35 creates
3:26:36 this
3:26:37 vicious
3:26:38 circle
3:26:40 because
3:26:40 in a
3:26:41 way
3:26:42 European
3:26:43 countries
3:26:45 trying to
3:26:45 fight
3:26:45 freedom
3:26:45 of
3:26:46 speech
3:26:48 under
3:26:50 pretexts
3:26:51 that sound
3:26:51 legitimate
3:26:52 such as
3:26:53 combating
3:26:53 misinformation
3:26:54 or election
3:26:55 interference
3:26:56 they create
3:26:57 precedence
3:26:58 and they
3:26:59 legitimize
3:27:01 restrictions
3:27:02 to freedom
3:27:02 of speech
3:27:03 which
3:27:03 then
3:27:04 in turn
3:27:06 be used
3:27:07 by
3:27:08 authoritarian
3:27:09 regimes
3:27:10 and they
3:27:11 would say
3:27:12 in places
3:27:13 like China
3:27:13 or
3:27:15 Iran
3:27:17 that
3:27:19 they’re not
3:27:19 doing anything
3:27:20 different
3:27:22 it’s the
3:27:23 norm now
3:27:25 to restrict
3:27:25 voices
3:27:28 that
3:27:30 don’t go
3:27:30 in line
3:27:31 with the
3:27:31 mainstream
3:27:31 narrative
3:27:34 that’s
3:27:34 sad
3:27:34 because
3:27:35 one of
3:27:35 the
3:27:36 things
3:27:36 that
3:27:36 makes
3:27:37 our
3:27:38 life
3:27:38 interesting
3:27:39 is
3:27:40 this
3:27:41 abundance
3:27:42 of
3:27:43 different
3:27:44 viewpoints
3:27:45 of
3:27:45 different
3:27:46 people
3:27:47 that we
3:27:48 get to
3:27:48 experience
3:27:51 you limit
3:27:51 the freedom
3:27:52 of people
3:27:53 you inevitably
3:27:54 decelerate
3:27:55 economic
3:27:56 growth
3:27:57 level of
3:27:57 happiness
3:27:58 the way
3:27:59 people can
3:28:00 contribute
3:28:00 to the
3:28:01 society
3:28:01 the way
3:28:02 people can
3:28:02 express
3:28:02 themselves
3:28:03 I
3:28:04 personally
3:28:04 think it
3:28:04 would be
3:28:05 a huge
3:28:05 mistake
3:28:07 to ban
3:28:08 a tool
3:28:08 like
3:28:09 Telegram
3:28:11 in any
3:28:11 country
3:28:12 particularly
3:28:13 a large
3:28:13 country
3:28:13 such as
3:28:14 Russia
3:28:15 because the
3:28:15 Russian people
3:28:16 are incredibly
3:28:17 talented
3:28:18 and resilient
3:28:19 people
3:28:21 they are
3:28:22 among the
3:28:23 first
3:28:24 to start
3:28:25 utilizing
3:28:26 some of
3:28:26 these
3:28:27 recent
3:28:28 innovations
3:28:28 that
3:28:29 Telegram
3:28:29 implements
3:28:31 they are
3:28:32 the early
3:28:32 adopters
3:28:34 I say
3:28:34 them
3:28:35 and
3:28:36 also the
3:28:37 Americans
3:28:38 perhaps other
3:28:39 people from
3:28:39 Eastern Europe
3:28:39 like
3:28:40 Ukrainians
3:28:42 and Southeast
3:28:43 Asians
3:28:43 they are among
3:28:44 the first
3:28:44 people to
3:28:45 start
3:28:46 using
3:28:47 any new
3:28:47 edition
3:28:47 that we
3:28:48 launch
3:28:51 they’re
3:28:52 incredibly
3:28:52 hungry
3:28:53 for
3:28:53 innovation
3:28:54 so all
3:28:55 that said
3:28:55 there’s
3:28:58 as part of
3:28:58 the propaganda
3:28:59 and in general
3:29:00 there’s attacks on you
3:29:01 all over the place
3:29:02 there’s misinformation
3:29:05 I’ve read a bunch
3:29:05 of things that are
3:29:07 I think in a
3:29:08 systematic way
3:29:10 lying about you
3:29:11 lying about
3:29:11 Telegram
3:29:14 from all
3:29:14 angles
3:29:15 why do you get
3:29:16 attacked so much
3:29:17 by everybody
3:29:18 protecting
3:29:19 freedom of
3:29:20 speech
3:29:22 is not a
3:29:23 way to make
3:29:23 our friends
3:29:24 yeah
3:29:25 because
3:29:26 you would
3:29:27 inevitably
3:29:28 find yourself
3:29:28 in a situation
3:29:29 where
3:29:32 you would
3:29:33 be protecting
3:29:34 the freedom
3:29:35 of
3:29:36 the opposition
3:29:38 to the
3:29:38 current
3:29:38 government
3:29:39 in any
3:29:40 country
3:29:43 to express
3:29:43 themselves
3:29:44 and then
3:29:47 the initial
3:29:47 reaction
3:29:48 and a very
3:29:50 basic
3:29:51 instinctive
3:29:51 reaction
3:29:52 of
3:29:53 any
3:29:55 government
3:29:56 would be
3:29:56 to say
3:29:57 oh our
3:29:58 opposition
3:30:00 shouldn’t be
3:30:00 trusted
3:30:01 and allowed
3:30:02 to express
3:30:02 themselves
3:30:02 because
3:30:03 they’re
3:30:05 actually
3:30:05 are agents
3:30:06 of
3:30:06 some
3:30:07 foreign
3:30:09 rival
3:30:10 a geopolitical
3:30:10 force
3:30:11 that wants
3:30:12 to destroy
3:30:12 our country
3:30:13 this is
3:30:14 something that
3:30:15 every
3:30:16 authoritarian
3:30:17 regime
3:30:17 in history
3:30:18 used
3:30:19 you take
3:30:22 Stalinist
3:30:23 Russia
3:30:24 or Nazi
3:30:24 Germany
3:30:25 or
3:30:26 Maoist
3:30:26 China
3:30:27 they’d
3:30:29 always use
3:30:30 the same
3:30:30 trick that
3:30:31 say we
3:30:31 need to
3:30:32 limit your
3:30:32 freedom of
3:30:32 speech
3:30:33 because
3:30:35 these people
3:30:35 who are
3:30:36 masquerading
3:30:36 as
3:30:37 opposition
3:30:38 are actually
3:30:40 the agents
3:30:41 of this
3:30:42 other country
3:30:42 that wants
3:30:43 to take
3:30:43 over
3:30:45 that’s why
3:30:46 dear citizens
3:30:46 forget about
3:30:47 their freedoms
3:30:49 and now
3:30:49 increasingly
3:30:50 you see
3:30:50 similar
3:30:51 attempts
3:30:51 in
3:30:53 free
3:30:53 countries
3:30:55 the initial
3:30:56 instinct
3:30:56 from say
3:30:57 President
3:30:58 Macron’s
3:30:58 team
3:30:59 when they’re
3:31:00 confronted
3:31:00 with some
3:31:01 footage
3:31:03 for example
3:31:04 the footage
3:31:04 of his
3:31:05 wife slapping
3:31:05 him
3:31:07 would be
3:31:07 to say
3:31:07 it’s all
3:31:08 fake
3:31:10 Russian
3:31:12 imagery
3:31:14 something
3:31:14 that is
3:31:16 inaccurate
3:31:17 something
3:31:18 that is
3:31:18 misinformation
3:31:19 or
3:31:20 interference
3:31:21 and then
3:31:22 when
3:31:23 they are
3:31:23 confronted
3:31:24 with more
3:31:25 information
3:31:26 they have
3:31:27 to
3:31:27 refine
3:31:28 the
3:31:28 narrative
3:31:30 so
3:31:30 when
3:31:33 you
3:31:33 find
3:31:33 yourself
3:31:34 in a
3:31:34 situation
3:31:35 that you’re
3:31:35 running
3:31:35 this
3:31:36 platform
3:31:38 like
3:31:38 Telegram
3:31:39 and then
3:31:39 you protect
3:31:40 the
3:31:41 freedom
3:31:41 to
3:31:42 express
3:31:43 of
3:31:45 ideas
3:31:46 that don’t
3:31:46 go in
3:31:46 line
3:31:46 with the
3:31:47 mainstream
3:31:47 narrative
3:31:49 you
3:31:51 often
3:31:51 find
3:31:52 yourself
3:31:54 in this
3:31:55 crossfire
3:31:57 when
3:31:57 the forces
3:31:58 in power
3:31:59 will say
3:31:59 that
3:32:01 you must
3:32:01 be working
3:32:02 with some
3:32:03 foreign
3:32:03 government
3:32:04 that they
3:32:04 don’t like
3:32:06 inevitably
3:32:07 they would
3:32:07 say
3:32:07 that
3:32:08 oh
3:32:09 if
3:32:09 you’re
3:32:09 protecting
3:32:09 these
3:32:10 voices
3:32:11 it’s
3:32:11 not
3:32:11 right
3:32:12 they
3:32:12 love
3:32:12 you
3:32:13 when
3:32:13 you’re
3:32:14 protecting
3:32:14 the
3:32:14 freedom
3:32:15 of
3:32:15 speech
3:32:17 in a
3:32:17 country
3:32:19 that is
3:32:19 far
3:32:19 from
3:32:19 them
3:32:21 or better
3:32:21 yet
3:32:22 in a
3:32:22 country
3:32:23 that
3:32:23 is their
3:32:24 geopolitical
3:32:24 rival
3:32:25 they praise
3:32:26 you for
3:32:26 that
3:32:26 but then
3:32:29 to have
3:32:30 this
3:32:30 bipolar
3:32:31 attitude
3:32:33 when
3:32:34 you do
3:32:34 the same
3:32:34 in their
3:32:35 own
3:32:35 country
3:32:36 and
3:32:36 they
3:32:36 say
3:32:36 no
3:32:37 no
3:32:37 no
3:32:37 no
3:32:37 we
3:32:38 loved
3:32:38 you
3:32:38 for
3:32:38 protecting
3:32:39 freedom
3:32:39 of
3:32:39 speech
3:32:40 but
3:32:40 not
3:32:40 here
3:32:41 not in
3:32:41 my
3:32:42 backyard
3:32:43 we don’t
3:32:43 need it
3:32:44 here
3:32:44 we’re
3:32:45 alright
3:32:45 we have
3:32:46 free
3:32:46 press
3:32:50 and
3:32:50 then
3:32:50 you
3:32:51 find
3:32:51 yourself
3:32:51 in
3:32:51 this
3:32:52 weird
3:32:52 spot
3:32:52 that
3:32:54 Ukrainians
3:32:54 say
3:32:54 you work
3:32:54 for
3:32:55 the
3:32:55 Russians
3:32:55 the
3:32:56 Russians
3:32:56 say
3:32:56 you work
3:32:56 for
3:32:56 the
3:32:57 Ukrainians
3:33:02 and
3:33:02 all
3:33:02 this
3:33:03 schizophrenia
3:33:04 is
3:33:04 something
3:33:04 that
3:33:04 we
3:33:05 had
3:33:05 to
3:33:05 deal
3:33:05 with
3:33:06 for
3:33:06 some
3:33:07 time
3:33:08 because
3:33:08 it’s
3:33:09 a
3:33:09 very
3:33:10 easy
3:33:10 way
3:33:10 to
3:33:11 attack
3:33:11 you
3:33:12 at
3:33:12 some
3:33:12 point
3:33:13 you
3:33:14 don’t
3:33:14 understand
3:33:15 where
3:33:15 it is
3:33:15 coming
3:33:16 from
3:33:18 is
3:33:18 it
3:33:19 our
3:33:19 competitors
3:33:20 and
3:33:21 we must
3:33:21 give credit
3:33:22 to our
3:33:22 competitors
3:33:23 if it’s
3:33:23 their
3:33:23 invention
3:33:24 to
3:33:24 launch
3:33:25 this
3:33:25 kind
3:33:25 of
3:33:25 rumors
3:33:26 because
3:33:28 at a
3:33:28 certain
3:33:29 point
3:33:29 they
3:33:29 must
3:33:29 have
3:33:30 realized
3:33:30 they
3:33:30 can’t
3:33:31 compete
3:33:33 technologically
3:33:35 on the
3:33:35 product
3:33:36 side
3:33:37 so they
3:33:37 must do
3:33:37 something
3:33:38 like this
3:33:39 or it’s
3:33:39 just
3:33:40 governments
3:33:40 launching
3:33:41 these rumors
3:33:42 trying to
3:33:42 discredit
3:33:43 the platform
3:33:44 trying to
3:33:45 scare
3:33:45 their citizens
3:33:46 away from
3:33:47 it
3:33:48 because
3:33:48 because
3:33:48 because they
3:33:49 understand
3:33:50 that their
3:33:51 power
3:33:52 and grip
3:33:53 of their
3:33:53 own
3:33:54 country
3:33:54 is in
3:33:54 danger
3:33:56 as long
3:33:56 as they
3:33:57 allow
3:33:57 a
3:33:58 pro
3:33:58 freedom
3:33:59 platform
3:33:59 to
3:34:00 operate
3:34:01 and
3:34:01 through
3:34:01 all
3:34:01 of this
3:34:02 we
3:34:02 should
3:34:02 say
3:34:03 over
3:34:03 and
3:34:03 over
3:34:03 that
3:34:04 you
3:34:04 are
3:34:05 simply
3:34:06 preserving
3:34:06 the
3:34:07 freedom
3:34:07 of speech
3:34:08 for all
3:34:09 people
3:34:09 of
3:34:09 earth
3:34:10 no matter
3:34:10 what
3:34:10 they
3:34:11 believe
3:34:13 as long
3:34:13 as they
3:34:13 don’t call
3:34:14 for violence
3:34:15 and as long
3:34:15 as they’re
3:34:16 not doing
3:34:17 some of the
3:34:18 criminal activity
3:34:18 that we
3:34:18 discussed
3:34:19 including
3:34:19 terrorist
3:34:21 organizing
3:34:21 but other
3:34:22 than that
3:34:22 it doesn’t
3:34:22 matter
3:34:23 what they
3:34:23 believe
3:34:24 left wing
3:34:24 or right
3:34:24 wing
3:34:25 you’re just
3:34:25 preserving
3:34:25 their freedom
3:34:26 of speech
3:34:26 do you think
3:34:27 people of
3:34:27 ukraine
3:34:28 people of
3:34:28 russia
3:34:28 and people
3:34:29 of iran
3:34:30 people of
3:34:30 all over
3:34:30 the world
3:34:32 understand that
3:34:33 despite the
3:34:34 propaganda
3:34:35 against you
3:34:36 i think
3:34:36 people are
3:34:37 smart
3:34:39 every time
3:34:39 i meet
3:34:40 somebody from
3:34:40 one of
3:34:41 these countries
3:34:41 you mentioned
3:34:42 in real life
3:34:43 people recognize
3:34:44 me in the
3:34:44 street
3:34:45 see here
3:34:46 in dubai
3:34:47 they come
3:34:47 over
3:34:49 they seem
3:34:51 incredibly
3:34:51 grateful
3:34:52 and understanding
3:34:55 the propaganda
3:34:56 in each
3:34:56 of these
3:34:57 countries
3:34:59 would tell
3:34:59 them a number
3:35:00 of things
3:35:01 but they
3:35:02 learned to
3:35:03 discount it
3:35:05 that’s why
3:35:05 they’re so
3:35:06 happy that
3:35:07 telegram exists
3:35:08 is because
3:35:10 the way
3:35:10 they can
3:35:13 understand
3:35:15 the world
3:35:15 around them
3:35:16 is to
3:35:17 receive
3:35:18 conflicting
3:35:19 mutually
3:35:20 exclusive
3:35:21 viewpoints
3:35:22 from
3:35:23 sources
3:35:24 that hate
3:35:24 each other
3:35:26 and try
3:35:27 to
3:35:28 understand
3:35:29 what really
3:35:29 is true
3:35:30 because there
3:35:30 is no such
3:35:31 thing as an
3:35:32 unbiased source
3:35:33 of information
3:35:35 when there
3:35:35 were
3:35:38 in ukraine
3:35:39 story in
3:35:39 2022
3:35:42 i instantly
3:35:42 realized
3:35:43 telegram
3:35:44 is going
3:35:45 to be used
3:35:46 to spread
3:35:47 propaganda
3:35:48 by both
3:35:48 sides
3:35:52 and i
3:35:53 didn’t want
3:35:53 to tell
3:35:53 them to
3:35:54 be used
3:35:54 as a
3:35:55 tool
3:35:55 for war
3:35:56 and i
3:35:56 said
3:35:57 and i posted
3:35:58 it publicly
3:35:59 i suggested
3:36:00 maybe we
3:36:01 should just
3:36:03 suspend
3:36:04 the activity
3:36:05 of all
3:36:06 politics
3:36:07 related channels
3:36:07 in both
3:36:08 countries
3:36:09 for the
3:36:09 time of
3:36:09 the war
3:36:12 maybe we
3:36:13 shouldn’t
3:36:13 have
3:36:13 channels
3:36:14 in these
3:36:14 two
3:36:14 countries
3:36:17 and then
3:36:17 interestingly
3:36:19 people from
3:36:20 both
3:36:21 countries
3:36:25 revolted
3:36:26 against
3:36:26 this
3:36:29 they told
3:36:29 me
3:36:30 both people
3:36:31 in ukraine
3:36:31 and in
3:36:32 russia
3:36:33 that i
3:36:34 don’t get
3:36:34 to babysit
3:36:35 them
3:36:36 and decide
3:36:37 for them
3:36:39 what sources
3:36:40 of information
3:36:42 that they
3:36:42 have to
3:36:44 be granted
3:36:45 access to
3:36:46 they are
3:36:46 grown-ups
3:36:47 that can
3:36:49 make these
3:36:49 decisions for
3:36:50 themselves
3:36:52 they understand
3:36:53 that there
3:36:53 is a lot
3:36:54 of propaganda
3:36:56 they learn
3:36:56 to see
3:36:57 through this
3:36:57 propaganda
3:36:59 they learn
3:37:00 to be able
3:37:01 to tell
3:37:01 truth
3:37:02 from lie
3:37:04 and in
3:37:05 this time
3:37:05 of war
3:37:05 it was
3:37:06 particularly
3:37:06 valuable
3:37:07 for them
3:37:09 to receive
3:37:11 as much
3:37:11 information
3:37:12 as possible
3:37:13 because their
3:37:14 relatives
3:37:15 their friends
3:37:17 were getting
3:37:18 affected
3:37:19 and are still
3:37:19 getting affected
3:37:21 they want to
3:37:22 understand what
3:37:22 was going
3:37:22 on
3:37:24 at that
3:37:24 moment i
3:37:25 realized
3:37:25 people are
3:37:26 smart
3:37:27 people get
3:37:27 it
3:37:29 people can
3:37:29 see through
3:37:30 it
3:37:31 if you
3:37:32 ask most
3:37:32 people in
3:37:32 any of
3:37:33 these countries
3:37:34 do you
3:37:34 agree that
3:37:37 access to
3:37:38 telegram should
3:37:38 be restricted
3:37:39 for whatever
3:37:39 reason
3:37:40 they would
3:37:40 say no
3:37:41 they hunger
3:37:42 to have
3:37:42 a voice
3:37:43 they need
3:37:44 a voice
3:37:45 and they
3:37:45 need a
3:37:46 place
3:37:47 to share
3:37:48 their opinion
3:37:49 securely
3:37:50 I have to
3:37:50 ask in the
3:37:51 question of
3:37:51 leadership
3:37:53 in the
3:37:55 LaPointe
3:37:55 interview
3:37:57 the journalist
3:37:58 said that
3:37:59 you’re often
3:37:59 compared to
3:38:00 Elon Musk
3:38:02 and you
3:38:03 highlighted some
3:38:04 interesting nuances
3:38:04 around that
3:38:05 that you’re
3:38:05 quite different
3:38:07 that Elon
3:38:08 runs several
3:38:08 companies at
3:38:09 once while you
3:38:10 only run one
3:38:12 and Elon
3:38:13 can lean more
3:38:13 on the
3:38:14 emotional side
3:38:15 while you
3:38:16 deliberate and
3:38:17 think deeply
3:38:18 before acting
3:38:19 can you expand
3:38:20 on this
3:38:21 also there’s an
3:38:22 interesting point
3:38:22 that he made
3:38:24 that everybody’s
3:38:25 weakness is also
3:38:25 a strength
3:38:26 everybody’s strength
3:38:27 is also a
3:38:27 weakness
3:38:27 there’s a
3:38:28 dual nature
3:38:30 to all our
3:38:30 characteristics
3:38:31 so
3:38:34 on the topic
3:38:34 of Elon
3:38:36 what have you
3:38:37 learned from
3:38:37 his style of
3:38:38 leadership
3:38:39 what do you
3:38:40 respect about
3:38:40 him
3:38:42 first of all
3:38:45 I don’t think
3:38:45 there is such
3:38:47 thing as
3:38:48 a negative
3:38:49 personal trait
3:38:50 in most cases
3:38:51 our
3:38:53 bad traits
3:38:54 and our good
3:38:54 traits are the
3:38:55 same trait
3:38:55 or at least
3:38:56 have the same
3:38:56 source
3:38:57 of course
3:38:58 there are some
3:38:58 extreme
3:39:00 examples
3:39:00 but
3:39:01 I’d say
3:39:02 99% of
3:39:03 people
3:39:04 if you analyze
3:39:05 the character
3:39:07 their bravery
3:39:08 can be seen
3:39:09 in recklessness
3:39:10 in other
3:39:10 situations
3:39:11 like depending
3:39:12 on circumstances
3:39:14 you would
3:39:14 see
3:39:15 exactly
3:39:16 the same
3:39:17 personality
3:39:18 trait
3:39:19 and it
3:39:19 will be
3:39:20 either
3:39:21 a good
3:39:21 thing
3:39:22 or a bad
3:39:22 thing
3:39:24 because
3:39:24 humanity
3:39:25 is perfect
3:39:26 as a
3:39:26 whole
3:39:29 and each
3:39:29 of us
3:39:29 is different
3:39:30 for a reason
3:39:31 we have
3:39:31 evolved
3:39:32 to be
3:39:32 different
3:39:35 to complement
3:39:36 each other’s
3:39:37 abilities
3:39:38 so that
3:39:39 together
3:39:39 we are
3:39:40 invincible
3:39:42 and even
3:39:43 if you take
3:39:45 a person
3:39:47 as complicated
3:39:48 as Elon
3:39:51 I believe
3:39:51 that
3:39:52 certain traits
3:39:53 that Elon
3:39:54 demonstrates
3:39:56 that people
3:39:57 criticize
3:39:58 about him
3:40:00 are also
3:40:00 the sources
3:40:01 of his
3:40:01 strength
3:40:04 for example
3:40:05 his emotionality
3:40:07 is derived
3:40:08 from the fact
3:40:08 that he cares
3:40:09 about issues
3:40:10 deeply
3:40:12 and he is
3:40:13 willing to
3:40:13 start as
3:40:14 many wars
3:40:15 and as
3:40:15 many fights
3:40:16 as it
3:40:16 takes
3:40:18 to change
3:40:19 the world
3:40:19 in the
3:40:19 direction
3:40:20 that
3:40:22 he thinks
3:40:22 is right
3:40:24 he also
3:40:24 seems
3:40:25 to be
3:40:25 able
3:40:25 to
3:40:26 extract
3:40:26 motivation
3:40:28 from
3:40:28 all these
3:40:29 worries
3:40:29 and
3:40:29 personal
3:40:30 conflicts
3:40:32 which
3:40:32 is
3:40:33 again
3:40:33 not
3:40:33 something
3:40:34 to be
3:40:35 underestimated
3:40:38 at a
3:40:38 certain
3:40:39 point
3:40:39 in the
3:40:40 life
3:40:40 of a
3:40:41 successful
3:40:42 entrepreneur
3:40:44 the
3:40:44 question
3:40:44 of
3:40:45 motivation
3:40:45 starts
3:40:45 to be
3:40:46 the
3:40:46 primary
3:40:47 question
3:40:48 if we
3:40:48 are
3:40:48 talking
3:40:49 about
3:40:49 the
3:40:51 richest
3:40:52 person
3:40:52 in the
3:40:52 world
3:40:53 and the
3:40:53 most
3:40:54 famous
3:40:54 entrepreneur
3:40:55 in the
3:40:55 world
3:40:57 you have
3:40:57 to wonder
3:40:58 how does
3:40:59 he motivate
3:40:59 himself
3:41:02 and if
3:41:04 starting
3:41:07 a war
3:41:09 on X
3:41:10 debating
3:41:11 certain
3:41:11 issues
3:41:13 or becoming
3:41:14 personal
3:41:14 with other
3:41:16 CEOs
3:41:17 criticizing
3:41:18 them
3:41:19 if these
3:41:20 activities
3:41:20 help
3:41:21 Elon
3:41:23 to
3:41:24 innovate
3:41:26 and
3:41:27 start
3:41:27 new
3:41:27 projects
3:41:29 he
3:41:29 should
3:41:29 be
3:41:29 doing
3:41:30 more
3:41:30 of it
3:41:31 there’s
3:41:32 nothing
3:41:32 wrong
3:41:33 in
3:41:35 being
3:41:36 non
3:41:37 agreeable
3:41:39 actually
3:41:39 it’s one
3:41:39 of the
3:41:40 main
3:41:41 traits
3:41:41 of a
3:41:42 successful
3:41:42 entrepreneur
3:41:44 not agreeing
3:41:45 with things
3:41:47 and
3:41:47 every time
3:41:48 somebody like
3:41:48 Elon
3:41:48 but there
3:41:49 is no
3:41:49 somebody
3:41:49 like
3:41:50 Elon
3:41:50 it’s
3:41:50 just
3:41:50 Elon
3:41:51 I think
3:41:52 at least
3:41:53 from the
3:41:54 entrepreneurs
3:41:54 I know
3:41:55 and I
3:41:56 personally
3:41:56 interacted
3:41:56 with
3:41:57 he’s
3:41:57 unique
3:41:59 in the
3:41:59 sense
3:42:00 that he
3:42:01 keeps
3:42:02 launching
3:42:02 new
3:42:03 things
3:42:04 running
3:42:05 them in
3:42:05 parallel
3:42:07 and he
3:42:07 doesn’t
3:42:08 seem to
3:42:08 be
3:42:08 stretched
3:42:09 too
3:42:09 thin
3:42:10 well
3:42:11 some
3:42:11 people
3:42:11 think
3:42:12 he
3:42:13 is
3:42:13 but
3:42:15 he
3:42:15 manages
3:42:16 to
3:42:17 still
3:42:17 demonstrate
3:42:20 success
3:42:22 in
3:42:22 all
3:42:22 or
3:42:22 most
3:42:23 of
3:42:23 his
3:42:23 endeavors
3:42:25 so
3:42:26 again
3:42:26 you can
3:42:26 criticize
3:42:27 Elon
3:42:27 for
3:42:27 being
3:42:27 emotional
3:42:28 but
3:42:28 would
3:42:29 he
3:42:29 be
3:42:29 the
3:42:29 same
3:42:30 person
3:42:31 without
3:42:32 this
3:42:33 I doubt
3:42:33 that
3:42:34 and the
3:42:34 incredible
3:42:35 teams
3:42:35 he’s
3:42:35 motivated
3:42:36 too
3:42:36 there’s
3:42:36 an
3:42:37 element
3:42:37 of
3:42:37 that
3:42:38 which
3:42:39 you’ve
3:42:39 spoken
3:42:39 about
3:42:40 the
3:42:41 team
3:42:41 at
3:42:42 Telegram
3:42:43 you know
3:42:45 assembling
3:42:46 a team
3:42:47 of
3:42:48 A players
3:42:49 as we’ve
3:42:49 talked
3:42:49 about
3:42:50 as a
3:42:50 skill
3:42:51 in
3:42:51 itself
3:42:52 and
3:42:52 that’s
3:42:52 also
3:42:52 a big
3:42:53 part
3:42:53 of
3:42:53 the
3:42:54 leaders
3:42:55 that
3:42:56 we’ve
3:42:56 discussed
3:42:57 it’s
3:42:57 like
3:42:57 what
3:42:59 judged
3:42:59 in part
3:43:00 by the
3:43:00 team
3:43:00 you
3:43:00 assemble
3:43:01 yes
3:43:02 and
3:43:02 one
3:43:02 of
3:43:02 the
3:43:02 necessary
3:43:04 character
3:43:04 features
3:43:05 to enable
3:43:05 that
3:43:06 is
3:43:07 to be
3:43:07 ready
3:43:08 to be
3:43:09 unpleasant
3:43:11 you have
3:43:11 to be
3:43:11 ready
3:43:12 to insult
3:43:12 some
3:43:12 people
3:43:13 if
3:43:14 their
3:43:14 work
3:43:15 is
3:43:16 inferior
3:43:17 you have
3:43:17 to be
3:43:17 ready
3:43:18 to
3:43:18 fire
3:43:19 them
3:43:20 without
3:43:20 remorse
3:43:23 so in
3:43:24 order to
3:43:24 be
3:43:24 an
3:43:25 efficient
3:43:25 great
3:43:26 entrepreneur
3:43:27 and enrich
3:43:27 the world
3:43:27 of
3:43:28 innovations
3:43:30 you have
3:43:31 to do
3:43:31 unpleasant
3:43:32 things
3:43:32 most people
3:43:33 will shy
3:43:33 away
3:43:33 from it
3:43:35 and
3:43:39 in a
3:43:39 certain
3:43:40 sense
3:43:40 entrepreneurs
3:43:41 sacrifice
3:43:41 their
3:43:42 peace
3:43:42 of
3:43:42 mind
3:43:45 in
3:43:45 order
3:43:45 to
3:43:48 contribute
3:43:49 to the
3:43:49 world
3:43:50 around
3:43:50 them
3:43:51 and
3:43:51 Elon
3:43:51 is a
3:43:51 great
3:43:52 example
3:43:52 of
3:43:52 that
3:43:53 I
3:43:53 have
3:43:53 to
3:43:54 ask
3:43:54 you
3:43:54 about
3:43:54 the
3:43:54 big
3:43:54 picture
3:43:55 telegram
3:43:58 we’ve
3:43:58 already
3:43:59 talked
3:43:59 about
3:43:59 the
3:43:59 fact
3:43:59 that
3:43:59 you
3:44:00 own
3:44:00 100%
3:44:00 of
3:44:01 it
3:44:02 and
3:44:02 there’s
3:44:02 a lot
3:44:02 of
3:44:03 on
3:44:03 the
3:44:03 business
3:44:03 side
3:44:04 of it
3:44:04 the
3:44:04 business
3:44:05 structure
3:44:05 of
3:44:05 telegram
3:44:05 is
3:44:06 fascinating
3:44:08 you’ve
3:44:08 invested
3:44:09 hundred
3:44:10 maybe
3:44:11 hundreds
3:44:11 of
3:44:12 millions
3:44:12 of
3:44:12 dollars
3:44:12 of
3:44:12 your
3:44:13 money
3:44:14 as
3:44:14 far
3:44:15 as
3:44:15 I
3:44:15 know
3:44:15 you
3:44:15 take
3:44:15 a
3:44:16 salary
3:44:16 of
3:44:16 what
3:44:17 one
3:44:17 dollar
3:44:19 one
3:44:19 third
3:44:21 of
3:44:21 that
3:44:23 one
3:44:23 third
3:44:23 of
3:44:23 a
3:44:24 dollar
3:44:26 and
3:44:27 in
3:44:27 2024
3:44:28 was
3:44:28 the
3:44:28 first
3:44:28 time
3:44:29 telegram
3:44:29 was
3:44:30 profitable
3:44:30 so
3:44:30 one
3:44:31 of
3:44:31 the
3:44:31 interesting
3:44:32 questions
3:44:32 is
3:44:33 here
3:44:33 that
3:44:33 we
3:44:33 could
3:44:33 talk
3:44:34 for
3:44:34 many
3:44:34 hours
3:44:35 about
3:44:36 but
3:44:36 I’d
3:44:36 love
3:44:36 to
3:44:36 get
3:44:36 a
3:44:36 high
3:44:37 view
3:44:37 picture
3:44:37 so
3:44:38 you’ve
3:44:39 left
3:44:39 what I
3:44:41 understand
3:44:42 what I
3:44:42 think
3:44:42 is a
3:44:43 huge
3:44:43 amount
3:44:43 of
3:44:43 money
3:44:43 on
3:44:43 the
3:44:44 table
3:44:44 by
3:44:45 sticking
3:44:45 to
3:44:45 your
3:44:45 principles
3:44:46 for
3:44:46 example
3:44:46 not
3:44:47 doing
3:44:48 advertisement
3:44:49 that’s
3:44:49 based
3:44:50 on
3:44:50 user
3:44:50 private
3:44:51 data
3:44:52 which
3:44:52 basically
3:44:52 every
3:44:53 social
3:44:53 media
3:44:53 company
3:44:54 does
3:44:55 so
3:44:55 the
3:44:56 only
3:44:56 advertisement
3:44:56 that
3:44:57 telegram
3:44:57 does
3:44:57 is
3:44:58 based
3:44:58 on
3:44:58 channels
3:44:58 and
3:44:59 groups
3:44:59 based
3:45:00 on
3:45:00 the
3:45:00 topic
3:45:00 not
3:45:00 the
3:45:01 private
3:45:02 data
3:45:02 of
3:45:02 the
3:45:03 individuals
3:45:04 and
3:45:06 also
3:45:07 gangster
3:45:07 and
3:45:07 incredible
3:45:08 is you
3:45:08 don’t
3:45:09 do
3:45:09 a
3:45:09 news
3:45:09 feed
3:45:11 which
3:45:11 is
3:45:11 the
3:45:11 most
3:45:12 addictive
3:45:13 and
3:45:14 engagement
3:45:15 inducing
3:45:16 aspect of
3:45:16 social media
3:45:17 which
3:45:18 feeds the
3:45:19 very kind
3:45:21 addictive
3:45:22 downside
3:45:22 of the
3:45:23 internet
3:45:24 the
3:45:25 distraction
3:45:25 the
3:45:26 engagement
3:45:26 drama
3:45:27 farming
3:45:28 aspect
3:45:29 that we’ve
3:45:29 talked about
3:45:30 in the very
3:45:30 beginning
3:45:31 that you
3:45:31 tried to
3:45:32 resist
3:45:32 that you
3:45:33 think is
3:45:33 damaging
3:45:33 the human
3:45:34 mind
3:45:34 at scale
3:45:35 so
3:45:35 anyway
3:45:36 that’s
3:45:36 just
3:45:36 speaking
3:45:37 to the
3:45:37 fact
3:45:37 that you’re
3:45:38 leaving a lot
3:45:38 of money
3:45:39 on the
3:45:39 table
3:45:40 so
3:45:40 how the
3:45:40 hell
3:45:41 were you
3:45:41 able to
3:45:41 be
3:45:42 profitable
3:45:43 what are
3:45:43 the ways
3:45:44 that telegram
3:45:44 makes
3:45:44 money
3:45:45 yeah
3:45:46 we had
3:45:46 to
3:45:47 innovate
3:45:47 a lot
3:45:49 in order
3:45:49 to reach
3:45:49 a point
3:45:50 where we
3:45:50 are
3:45:51 profitable
3:45:53 without
3:45:54 having
3:45:54 to resort
3:45:55 to
3:45:57 dubious
3:45:57 business
3:45:58 activities
3:45:59 involving
3:46:01 exploiting
3:46:02 personal
3:46:03 data of
3:46:03 users
3:46:04 something
3:46:05 that
3:46:06 most of
3:46:06 our
3:46:07 competitors
3:46:08 do
3:46:10 because
3:46:10 money
3:46:11 has never
3:46:11 been
3:46:12 the
3:46:12 primary
3:46:13 goal
3:46:14 at least
3:46:14 not for
3:46:14 me
3:46:16 when I
3:46:17 sold
3:46:18 the
3:46:19 remaining
3:46:19 share
3:46:19 of my
3:46:20 first
3:46:20 company
3:46:22 and I
3:46:22 had to
3:46:23 do it
3:46:23 below
3:46:24 market
3:46:24 price
3:46:24 because
3:46:27 I
3:46:27 didn’t
3:46:28 leave
3:46:28 Russia
3:46:29 completely
3:46:29 without
3:46:29 any
3:46:30 pressures
3:46:30 you know
3:46:33 I
3:46:34 reinvested
3:46:34 the vast
3:46:35 majority
3:46:35 of
3:46:36 everything
3:46:37 in
3:46:38 telegram
3:46:41 telegram
3:46:41 is an
3:46:42 operation
3:46:42 that is
3:46:42 losing
3:46:43 money
3:46:43 for me
3:46:44 personally
3:46:44 I
3:46:45 never
3:46:45 I
3:46:46 didn’t
3:46:46 extract
3:46:47 more
3:46:47 from
3:46:47 telegram
3:46:47 than I
3:46:48 invested
3:46:48 in it
3:46:49 I
3:46:49 never
3:46:50 sold
3:46:51 a
3:46:51 single
3:46:51 share
3:46:55 but I
3:46:55 also
3:46:56 didn’t
3:46:56 want to
3:46:56 sell
3:46:56 telegram
3:46:57 so how
3:46:57 do you
3:46:58 reach a
3:46:58 point
3:46:58 when you’re
3:46:59 profitable
3:47:00 without
3:47:01 sacrificing
3:47:01 your
3:47:01 values
3:47:03 one of
3:47:03 the ideas
3:47:04 we explored
3:47:05 was a
3:47:05 subscription
3:47:06 model
3:47:07 but only
3:47:08 for
3:47:09 certain
3:47:09 additional
3:47:10 features
3:47:10 we wanted
3:47:11 to keep
3:47:11 all the
3:47:12 existing
3:47:13 features
3:47:13 free
3:47:14 and
3:47:14 just
3:47:15 add
3:47:18 more
3:47:20 business
3:47:21 related
3:47:21 tools
3:47:22 or
3:47:22 tools
3:47:23 for
3:47:23 advanced
3:47:23 users
3:47:24 that
3:47:25 they
3:47:25 would
3:47:25 have
3:47:25 to
3:47:25 pay
3:47:26 for
3:47:27 say
3:47:27 four
3:47:27 or
3:47:27 five
3:47:28 dollars
3:47:28 a
3:47:28 month
3:47:31 it
3:47:32 was
3:47:32 quite
3:47:33 unprecedented
3:47:33 at the
3:47:34 time
3:47:34 it
3:47:35 wasn’t
3:47:36 considered
3:47:36 a viable
3:47:37 option
3:47:37 for messaging
3:47:37 apps
3:47:38 to do
3:47:38 that
3:47:39 we
3:47:40 launched
3:47:40 the
3:47:40 premium
3:47:41 subscriptions
3:47:42 for
3:47:42 telegram
3:47:43 in
3:47:45 2022
3:47:47 and
3:47:48 now
3:47:48 we
3:47:49 have
3:47:49 over
3:47:50 15
3:47:50 million
3:47:50 paid
3:47:51 subscribers
3:47:53 this
3:47:54 is
3:47:55 some
3:47:56 very
3:47:57 significant
3:47:58 recurring
3:47:58 revenue
3:48:00 so we
3:48:00 would
3:48:03 receive
3:48:04 more than
3:48:04 half a
3:48:05 billion
3:48:05 dollars
3:48:06 from
3:48:07 premium
3:48:07 subscriptions
3:48:07 alone
3:48:09 this
3:48:09 year
3:48:10 and
3:48:10 it’s
3:48:10 growing
3:48:11 fast
3:48:13 for
3:48:14 that
3:48:14 we
3:48:14 had
3:48:14 to
3:48:14 innovate
3:48:15 a lot
3:48:15 we
3:48:16 included
3:48:16 over
3:48:17 50
3:48:17 different
3:48:18 features
3:48:19 into
3:48:19 the
3:48:20 premium
3:48:20 package
3:48:22 and
3:48:22 then
3:48:22 how
3:48:23 do
3:48:23 you
3:48:24 make
3:48:24 an
3:48:24 app
3:48:25 that
3:48:25 is
3:48:25 already
3:48:26 more
3:48:27 powerful
3:48:27 than
3:48:27 any
3:48:27 other
3:48:28 messaging
3:48:28 app
3:48:28 on
3:48:29 the
3:48:29 market
3:48:32 even
3:48:33 more
3:48:33 useful
3:48:34 so that
3:48:34 people
3:48:34 would
3:48:34 be
3:48:34 ready
3:48:35 to
3:48:35 pay
3:48:35 for
3:48:35 this
3:48:36 extra
3:48:37 that
3:48:38 wasn’t
3:48:38 easy
3:48:39 that
3:48:39 took
3:48:39 a lot
3:48:39 of
3:48:40 effort
3:48:41 and
3:48:41 you
3:48:41 constantly
3:48:41 adding
3:48:42 features
3:48:42 we
3:48:43 constantly
3:48:43 adding
3:48:43 features
3:48:44 it’s
3:48:44 actually
3:48:44 fun
3:48:44 to
3:48:45 watch
3:48:45 just
3:48:45 the
3:48:46 rate
3:48:46 of
3:48:46 adding
3:48:47 and
3:48:47 some
3:48:47 of
3:48:47 them
3:48:47 are
3:48:47 subtle
3:48:48 like
3:48:48 the
3:48:49 updates
3:48:49 to
3:48:50 improvements
3:48:52 expansions
3:48:52 of
3:48:53 polls
3:48:54 for example
3:48:54 yes
3:48:54 you
3:48:55 keep
3:48:56 improving
3:48:56 the
3:48:56 existing
3:48:56 features
3:48:57 and
3:48:57 adding
3:48:57 new
3:48:58 ones
3:48:59 and
3:48:59 every
3:48:59 time
3:48:59 when
3:49:00 you
3:49:00 add
3:49:00 a
3:49:00 new
3:49:00 feature
3:49:01 you
3:49:01 don’t
3:49:01 want
3:49:01 to
3:49:02 clutter
3:49:02 the
3:49:02 app
3:49:03 so
3:49:03 in a
3:49:03 way
3:49:04 they’re
3:49:04 not
3:49:04 in
3:49:04 your
3:49:04 way
3:49:05 they’re
3:49:06 invisible
3:49:08 that’s
3:49:09 not
3:49:09 an
3:49:09 easy
3:49:09 thing
3:49:10 to
3:49:10 do
3:49:10 and
3:49:10 most
3:49:10 of
3:49:10 the
3:49:11 features
3:49:11 maybe
3:49:12 are
3:49:12 not
3:49:12 even
3:49:13 known
3:49:13 to
3:49:14 the
3:49:15 majority
3:49:15 of
3:49:15 our
3:49:15 users
3:49:16 but
3:49:16 when
3:49:16 you
3:49:16 need
3:49:17 them
3:49:17 they’re
3:49:17 there
3:49:18 so
3:49:19 premium
3:49:19 is
3:49:19 one
3:49:20 source
3:49:20 of
3:49:20 our
3:49:20 revenue
3:49:21 we
3:49:21 also
3:49:22 have
3:49:22 ads
3:49:22 but
3:49:22 they’re
3:49:23 context
3:49:23 based
3:49:25 not
3:49:25 targeted
3:49:26 of
3:49:27 course
3:49:27 we
3:49:27 leave
3:49:28 probably
3:49:30 80%
3:49:30 of
3:49:30 value
3:49:32 on
3:49:32 the
3:49:33 table
3:49:34 because
3:49:34 we’re
3:49:34 not
3:49:34 ready
3:49:34 to
3:49:35 engage
3:49:35 in
3:49:35 all
3:49:35 these
3:49:36 practices
3:49:36 exporting
3:49:37 personal
3:49:37 data
3:49:37 just
3:49:38 to
3:49:38 be
3:49:38 clear
3:49:39 targeted
3:49:40 ads
3:49:40 is
3:49:40 what
3:49:41 most
3:49:42 social
3:49:42 media
3:49:42 companies
3:49:43 most
3:49:43 tech
3:49:43 companies
3:49:43 that
3:49:44 do
3:49:44 any
3:49:44 kinds
3:49:44 of
3:49:45 advertisement
3:49:45 do
3:49:46 and
3:49:47 that’s
3:49:47 the
3:49:47 kind
3:49:47 of
3:49:48 advertisement
3:49:48 that
3:49:49 uses
3:49:50 personal
3:49:50 data
3:49:51 from
3:49:51 users
3:49:52 just
3:49:52 to
3:49:53 clarify
3:49:53 and
3:49:54 when
3:49:54 you
3:49:54 said
3:49:54 80%
3:49:55 that’s
3:49:55 a lot
3:49:55 of
3:49:56 money
3:49:56 of
3:49:56 course
3:49:57 because
3:49:58 we
3:49:58 would
3:49:58 never
3:49:59 use
3:49:59 for
3:49:59 example
3:49:59 your
3:50:00 personal
3:50:00 messaging
3:50:01 data
3:50:01 or
3:50:01 your
3:50:02 context
3:50:03 data
3:50:03 or
3:50:04 your
3:50:04 metadata
3:50:05 or
3:50:05 your
3:50:06 activity
3:50:06 data
3:50:07 to
3:50:07 target
3:50:08 ads
3:50:10 it’s
3:50:12 sad
3:50:12 that
3:50:13 it
3:50:13 became
3:50:14 synonymous
3:50:14 with
3:50:14 the
3:50:15 internet
3:50:15 industry
3:50:17 this
3:50:17 kind
3:50:17 of
3:50:18 exploitation
3:50:19 but
3:50:20 we
3:50:20 are
3:50:21 happy
3:50:22 with
3:50:22 the
3:50:22 fact
3:50:22 that
3:50:23 we
3:50:23 managed
3:50:23 to
3:50:24 make
3:50:24 telegram
3:50:25 profitable
3:50:25 despite
3:50:26 that
3:50:27 we’re
3:50:28 also
3:50:28 experimenting
3:50:29 a lot
3:50:29 with
3:50:31 blockchain
3:50:31 based
3:50:32 technologies
3:50:33 we’re the
3:50:34 first
3:50:35 app
3:50:35 to allow
3:50:36 people
3:50:36 to
3:50:36 directly
3:50:37 own
3:50:37 their
3:50:37 username
3:50:38 and their
3:50:39 digital
3:50:39 identities
3:50:41 using
3:50:41 smart
3:50:42 contracts
3:50:42 and
3:50:43 NFTs
3:50:44 removing
3:50:45 telegram
3:50:45 from the
3:50:45 picture
3:50:45 so
3:50:46 for
3:50:46 example
3:50:46 telegram
3:50:47 cannot
3:50:49 confiscate
3:50:49 your
3:50:50 username
3:50:50 from
3:50:50 you
3:50:51 it’s
3:50:52 impossible
3:50:54 we
3:50:54 do
3:50:55 a lot
3:50:55 of
3:50:55 things
3:50:56 related
3:50:56 to
3:50:57 the
3:50:58 ecosystem
3:50:58 of
3:50:59 telegram
3:50:59 we
3:51:00 have
3:51:00 a
3:51:00 thriving
3:51:01 mini
3:51:01 app
3:51:02 platform
3:51:03 millions
3:51:04 of
3:51:04 mini
3:51:04 app
3:51:05 developers
3:51:06 launching
3:51:06 their
3:51:07 own
3:51:07 bots
3:51:08 and
3:51:09 applications
3:51:10 so a
3:51:10 lot
3:51:10 of
3:51:10 people
3:51:11 are
3:51:11 making
3:51:11 millions
3:51:11 of
3:51:12 dollars
3:51:12 on
3:51:13 the
3:51:13 telegram
3:51:14 platform
3:51:15 yes
3:51:15 we
3:51:16 enable
3:51:16 them
3:51:17 to
3:51:18 receive
3:51:20 payments
3:51:20 from
3:51:20 the
3:51:21 users
3:51:22 through
3:51:24 in-app
3:51:25 purchase
3:51:26 mechanism
3:51:26 provided
3:51:27 by apple
3:51:27 and google
3:51:29 which i
3:51:29 think
3:51:30 was the
3:51:31 first
3:51:32 attempt
3:51:32 of this
3:51:32 kind
3:51:34 to allow
3:51:35 that both
3:51:36 on ios
3:51:36 and android
3:51:37 and on
3:51:37 a big
3:51:37 platform
3:51:38 so that
3:51:39 third-party
3:51:39 developers
3:51:40 of mini
3:51:40 apps
3:51:40 which are
3:51:41 basically
3:51:42 websites
3:51:43 so deeply
3:51:44 integrated
3:51:44 into
3:51:45 telegram
3:51:46 that you
3:51:46 can’t
3:51:46 tell
3:51:48 whether
3:51:49 they’re
3:51:49 a
3:51:49 standalone
3:51:49 or
3:51:50 they’re
3:51:50 part of
3:51:50 their
3:51:51 overall
3:51:51 experience
3:51:54 and by
3:51:54 providing
3:51:55 this
3:51:56 payment
3:51:57 option
3:51:58 we’re
3:51:59 able
3:51:59 to
3:51:59 extract
3:52:01 a
3:52:02 commission
3:52:04 from
3:52:04 these
3:52:05 transactions
3:52:05 but it’s
3:52:06 a very
3:52:07 low
3:52:07 commission
3:52:08 presently
3:52:08 it’s
3:52:09 5%
3:52:11 so we’re
3:52:12 not greedy
3:52:12 here
3:52:13 we want
3:52:14 people to
3:52:15 succeed
3:52:17 in building
3:52:17 these tools
3:52:18 for our
3:52:18 users
3:52:18 we understand
3:52:19 that
3:52:21 many apps
3:52:21 bring us
3:52:22 users
3:52:25 the more
3:52:25 users
3:52:26 we have
3:52:27 the more
3:52:27 successful
3:52:28 and relevant
3:52:29 telegram
3:52:30 becomes
3:52:30 we need
3:52:31 third-party
3:52:31 developers
3:52:32 I think
3:52:33 at this
3:52:34 point
3:52:35 telegram
3:52:36 gives
3:52:36 developers
3:52:37 by far
3:52:38 the most
3:52:39 powerful
3:52:41 tools
3:52:42 to create
3:52:43 plus
3:52:43 there’s a
3:52:44 bot API
3:52:45 and
3:52:45 I mean
3:52:46 you have to
3:52:46 tell me
3:52:46 about the
3:52:46 ton
3:52:47 blockchain
3:52:48 and the
3:52:48 crypto
3:52:49 ecosystem
3:52:49 available
3:52:50 through
3:52:50 telegram
3:52:51 so what
3:52:52 is ton
3:52:53 aka the
3:52:53 open
3:52:54 network
3:52:55 blockchain
3:52:56 ton
3:52:57 is a
3:52:57 blockchain
3:52:58 technology
3:52:58 that we
3:52:59 initially
3:52:59 developed
3:53:01 in 2018
3:53:01 and 2019
3:53:03 and we
3:53:03 started to
3:53:04 develop it
3:53:04 because we
3:53:05 needed a
3:53:06 blockchain
3:53:06 platform
3:53:07 to be
3:53:07 integrated
3:53:08 deeply
3:53:08 into
3:53:08 telegram
3:53:09 because we
3:53:10 believe in
3:53:11 blockchain
3:53:11 we think
3:53:12 it’s one
3:53:12 of the
3:53:13 technologies
3:53:14 that enable
3:53:14 freedom
3:53:16 but at
3:53:16 the time
3:53:17 if you
3:53:18 look at
3:53:18 bitcoin
3:53:19 if you
3:53:19 look at
3:53:20 ethereum
3:53:21 they were
3:53:22 not
3:53:23 scalable
3:53:23 enough
3:53:24 to cope
3:53:24 with
3:53:25 the
3:53:25 load
3:53:26 that
3:53:26 our
3:53:27 hundreds
3:53:28 of
3:53:28 millions
3:53:28 of
3:53:29 users
3:53:29 would
3:53:29 create
3:53:30 they would
3:53:30 just become
3:53:31 congested
3:53:33 and I
3:53:33 asked my
3:53:33 brother
3:53:34 can we
3:53:35 create a
3:53:35 blockchain
3:53:36 platform
3:53:37 that would
3:53:38 be inherently
3:53:39 scalable
3:53:40 so that
3:53:41 no matter
3:53:41 how many
3:53:42 users
3:53:43 or transactions
3:53:44 there are
3:53:45 it would
3:53:45 split into
3:53:46 smaller pieces
3:53:47 which we
3:53:48 call
3:53:48 short
3:53:49 chains
3:53:50 and would
3:53:50 still
3:53:50 process
3:53:51 all
3:53:51 transactions
3:53:53 and he
3:53:54 thought for
3:53:54 a few
3:53:55 days and
3:53:55 said yes
3:53:55 it’s
3:53:56 possible but
3:53:56 it’s not
3:53:57 easy
3:53:57 and we
3:53:57 started
3:53:58 building it
3:53:59 we ended
3:54:00 up succeeding
3:54:01 in developing
3:54:02 that technology
3:54:02 but we
3:54:03 couldn’t
3:54:03 release it
3:54:05 because
3:54:08 the
3:54:08 SEC
3:54:09 the
3:54:10 Securities
3:54:10 and
3:54:10 Exchanges
3:54:11 Commission
3:54:12 in the
3:54:12 United
3:54:12 States
3:54:14 was
3:54:14 unhappy
3:54:15 with
3:54:15 the
3:54:15 way
3:54:18 the
3:54:19 fundraise
3:54:20 for
3:54:20 Don
3:54:20 was
3:54:21 conducted
3:54:23 so we
3:54:24 had to
3:54:24 abandon
3:54:24 the
3:54:25 project
3:54:25 and
3:54:27 the
3:54:27 open
3:54:27 source
3:54:28 community
3:54:28 took
3:54:28 over
3:54:30 luckily
3:54:31 because
3:54:32 we
3:54:32 constantly
3:54:33 conducted
3:54:34 those
3:54:34 contests
3:54:35 for
3:54:36 third
3:54:36 party
3:54:37 developers
3:54:37 there
3:54:38 was a
3:54:38 thriving
3:54:39 community
3:54:40 around
3:54:40 Ton
3:54:42 which
3:54:43 now
3:54:43 stood
3:54:43 for
3:54:44 the
3:54:44 open
3:54:45 network
3:54:46 as
3:54:46 opposed
3:54:46 to
3:54:46 its
3:54:47 prior
3:54:47 name
3:54:48 Telegram
3:54:48 open
3:54:48 network
3:54:50 and
3:54:50 so
3:54:51 this
3:54:52 project
3:54:53 got
3:54:54 eventually
3:54:54 launched
3:54:57 without
3:54:57 our
3:54:58 direct
3:54:58 involvement
3:55:00 and
3:55:00 it’s
3:55:01 thriving
3:55:01 now
3:55:02 because
3:55:03 everything
3:55:03 we do
3:55:04 like I
3:55:05 said
3:55:05 this
3:55:06 blockchain
3:55:07 based
3:55:09 tokenized
3:55:10 usernames
3:55:11 Telegram
3:55:12 accounts
3:55:13 are all
3:55:14 based on
3:55:14 Don
3:55:15 and its
3:55:15 smart
3:55:15 contracts
3:55:17 it’s
3:55:18 the only
3:55:19 way for
3:55:20 third party
3:55:20 developers
3:55:21 and creators
3:55:24 to
3:55:25 withdraw
3:55:26 the funds
3:55:26 that they
3:55:28 earn
3:55:29 through our
3:55:29 revenue
3:55:29 sharing
3:55:30 programs
3:55:30 for
3:55:31 example
3:55:31 with
3:55:32 channel
3:55:32 owners
3:55:33 we do
3:55:34 a 50-50
3:55:35 split
3:55:35 of
3:55:36 ad
3:55:37 revenues
3:55:38 it’s
3:55:39 also the
3:55:39 only way
3:55:40 to
3:55:40 transact
3:55:41 on
3:55:41 Telegram
3:55:41 for
3:55:42 example
3:55:42 if you
3:55:43 want to
3:55:43 buy
3:55:43 ads
3:55:43 on
3:55:44 Telegram
3:55:44 you
3:55:45 should
3:55:45 use
3:55:45 Ton
3:55:47 all
3:55:47 all
3:55:47 the
3:55:48 new
3:55:48 things
3:55:48 we
3:55:49 launch
3:55:49 for
3:55:49 example
3:55:50 let’s
3:55:50 say
3:55:52 gifts
3:55:53 that we
3:55:53 mentioned
3:55:53 earlier
3:55:55 which
3:55:55 you can
3:55:56 define
3:55:57 as a
3:55:59 reinvented
3:55:59 socially
3:56:00 relevant
3:56:01 NFT
3:56:03 integrated
3:56:04 into a
3:56:05 billion user
3:56:06 ecosystem
3:56:06 but at the
3:56:07 same time
3:56:08 available
3:56:09 on chain
3:56:10 transferable
3:56:11 which
3:56:12 you can
3:56:12 own
3:56:12 directly
3:56:13 also
3:56:14 based
3:56:14 on
3:56:15 Ton
3:56:17 incredibly
3:56:18 fast
3:56:18 growing
3:56:19 space
3:56:20 we only
3:56:20 launched
3:56:21 them
3:56:21 half a
3:56:21 year
3:56:22 ago
3:56:23 and
3:56:24 now
3:56:24 as a
3:56:24 result
3:56:24 of
3:56:25 this
3:56:26 Telegram
3:56:27 gifts
3:56:28 Ton
3:56:28 has
3:56:29 become
3:56:31 I think
3:56:31 the largest
3:56:32 of the
3:56:32 second
3:56:33 largest
3:56:34 blockchain
3:56:37 in
3:56:37 terms
3:56:38 of
3:56:38 daily
3:56:39 NFT
3:56:39 trading
3:56:40 volumes
3:56:41 so
3:56:41 yeah
3:56:41 like
3:56:41 you
3:56:42 mentioned
3:56:42 it is
3:56:42 a
3:56:43 layer
3:56:43 one
3:56:44 technology
3:56:44 as opposed
3:56:45 to being
3:56:45 built
3:56:45 on top
3:56:46 of
3:56:46 Ethereum
3:56:46 or
3:56:46 Bitcoin
3:56:47 and
3:56:47 it’s
3:56:48 able
3:56:48 to
3:56:49 achieve
3:56:49 the
3:56:50 scale
3:56:50 and
3:56:50 the
3:56:51 speed
3:56:51 of
3:56:52 transactions
3:56:52 that’s
3:56:52 needed
3:56:53 for
3:56:53 something
3:56:53 like
3:56:54 Telegram
3:56:55 and
3:56:55 like
3:56:55 you
3:56:55 also
3:56:56 mentioned
3:56:56 the
3:56:57 gifts
3:56:58 you
3:56:58 recently
3:56:59 launched
3:57:01 some
3:57:02 Snoop Dog
3:57:02 gifts
3:57:03 is there
3:57:04 going to
3:57:04 be
3:57:04 some
3:57:04 other
3:57:05 celebrities
3:57:06 in the
3:57:07 pipeline
3:57:08 yeah
3:57:08 I’m a
3:57:09 big
3:57:09 fan of
3:57:09 Snoop
3:57:10 and
3:57:10 that’s
3:57:10 why
3:57:11 when
3:57:11 they
3:57:11 reach
3:57:12 out
3:57:12 suggest
3:57:13 to do
3:57:13 something
3:57:13 together
3:57:14 say
3:57:14 let’s
3:57:14 launch
3:57:15 some
3:57:15 Snoop
3:57:16 related
3:57:17 gifts
3:57:17 and
3:57:18 it
3:57:18 was
3:57:18 really
3:57:19 fun
3:57:20 we
3:57:20 managed
3:57:20 to
3:57:21 sell
3:57:22 12
3:57:23 million
3:57:23 worth
3:57:23 of
3:57:24 gifts
3:57:25 within
3:57:25 30
3:57:26 minutes
3:57:26 30
3:57:27 minutes
3:57:27 well
3:57:27 there
3:57:27 you
3:57:28 go
3:57:28 I
3:57:29 even
3:57:29 got
3:57:29 a
3:57:29 view
3:57:29 but
3:57:30 yeah
3:57:31 after
3:57:31 after
3:57:31 this
3:57:32 we
3:57:32 have
3:57:33 many
3:57:33 requests
3:57:34 from
3:57:35 many
3:57:35 really
3:57:36 high
3:57:36 profile
3:57:37 influencers
3:57:39 that in
3:57:39 a way
3:57:39 are lining
3:57:40 up
3:57:41 so from
3:57:41 my
3:57:41 perspective
3:57:42 as a
3:57:42 fan
3:57:42 it’s
3:57:42 just
3:57:42 interesting
3:57:43 to see
3:57:43 what kind
3:57:43 of art
3:57:44 you
3:57:44 create
3:57:44 for
3:57:45 any
3:57:45 kind
3:57:45 of
3:57:46 celebrities
3:57:47 athletes
3:57:47 musicians
3:57:48 because
3:57:48 the
3:57:49 Snoop
3:57:52 gifts
3:57:52 are all
3:57:52 just
3:57:53 going back
3:57:54 to our
3:57:54 previous
3:57:54 conversations
3:57:55 beautiful
3:57:55 pieces
3:57:55 of art
3:57:57 that
3:57:59 encapsulates
3:58:00 certain
3:58:00 memes
3:58:02 certain
3:58:03 aspects
3:58:03 of
3:58:03 Snoop
3:58:04 that
3:58:04 everybody
3:58:04 knows
3:58:05 these
3:58:05 cultural
3:58:06 icons
3:58:06 that he
3:58:07 represents
3:58:07 it’s
3:58:08 cool
3:58:08 the
3:58:11 incredible
3:58:12 detail
3:58:12 of the
3:58:12 art
3:58:13 of the
3:58:13 individual
3:58:13 gifts
3:58:14 is
3:58:14 just
3:58:14 incredible
3:58:15 and
3:58:16 each
3:58:16 of
3:58:17 these
3:58:17 gifts
3:58:17 is
3:58:18 scalable
3:58:19 because
3:58:20 it’s
3:58:20 vector
3:58:21 based
3:58:22 it
3:58:23 references
3:58:23 certain
3:58:24 points
3:58:25 in
3:58:26 Snoop’s
3:58:27 creative
3:58:28 biography
3:58:28 and
3:58:29 each
3:58:29 of
3:58:29 them
3:58:29 has
3:58:30 countless
3:58:31 different
3:58:31 versions
3:58:32 we had
3:58:33 to
3:58:33 create
3:58:34 over
3:58:35 50
3:58:35 distinctive
3:58:36 versions
3:58:37 of each
3:58:38 and then
3:58:39 each
3:58:39 piece
3:58:39 is
3:58:40 unique
3:58:40 because
3:58:41 it also
3:58:41 has
3:58:41 unique
3:58:42 background
3:58:42 unique
3:58:43 icon
3:58:44 and
3:58:44 the
3:58:44 background
3:58:45 it’s
3:58:45 something
3:58:46 that
3:58:46 we
3:58:47 reinvented
3:58:48 because
3:58:48 we
3:58:49 didn’t
3:58:49 like
3:58:49 the
3:58:49 old
3:58:50 school
3:58:50 NFTs
3:58:51 first of
3:58:51 all
3:58:51 they
3:58:52 were
3:58:53 not
3:58:53 relevant
3:58:54 socially
3:58:54 because
3:58:54 okay
3:58:55 you have
3:58:55 an NFT
3:58:57 where do
3:58:57 you
3:58:58 demonstrate
3:58:59 it
3:59:00 a
3:59:01 telegram
3:59:01 gift
3:59:02 is
3:59:03 there
3:59:03 next
3:59:03 to
3:59:03 your
3:59:04 name
3:59:04 it’s
3:59:05 part
3:59:05 of
3:59:05 your
3:59:05 digital
3:59:06 identity
3:59:06 on
3:59:06 telegram
3:59:07 and
3:59:07 then
3:59:07 you can
3:59:07 create
3:59:08 collections
3:59:09 gifts
3:59:09 and
3:59:09 show
3:59:09 it
3:59:09 off
3:59:10 on
3:59:10 your
3:59:10 profile
3:59:10 page
3:59:12 but
3:59:13 it
3:59:14 also
3:59:14 the
3:59:14 other
3:59:14 thing
3:59:14 that
3:59:15 we
3:59:15 wanted
3:59:15 to
3:59:16 reinvent
3:59:16 is
3:59:17 the
3:59:18 aesthetic
3:59:19 part
3:59:19 of it
3:59:20 most
3:59:20 NFTs
3:59:21 are just
3:59:21 ugly
3:59:23 and
3:59:23 they’re
3:59:24 not
3:59:25 based
3:59:25 on
3:59:25 any
3:59:27 sophisticated
3:59:27 technology
3:59:29 so
3:59:30 what we
3:59:30 did
3:59:30 with
3:59:31 Snoop’s
3:59:31 gifts
3:59:33 I
3:59:33 think
3:59:35 represents
3:59:36 an
3:59:36 example
3:59:37 of
3:59:41 beautiful
3:59:41 aesthetically
3:59:42 pleasing
3:59:43 and at
3:59:43 the same
3:59:43 time
3:59:45 very
3:59:45 accurate
3:59:47 in terms
3:59:47 of
3:59:48 references
3:59:48 to this
3:59:49 specific
3:59:51 artist’s
3:59:51 biography
3:59:53 mixture
3:59:54 between
3:59:54 art and
3:59:55 technology
3:59:55 which I
3:59:56 think is
3:59:56 quite rare
3:59:57 I’m quite
3:59:57 proud of
3:59:58 it
3:59:58 I think
3:59:59 it’s a
3:59:59 new trend
4:00:00 a new
4:00:00 phenomenon
4:00:01 it’s only
4:00:03 half a
4:00:03 year old
4:00:04 so let’s
4:00:04 see where
4:00:05 it goes
4:00:06 we’re gonna
4:00:07 select our
4:00:07 next
4:00:09 influencer
4:00:11 or artist
4:00:12 to be part
4:00:13 of it
4:00:13 hey listen
4:00:14 I’m really
4:00:14 proud I
4:00:15 got a
4:00:15 Snoop
4:00:16 gift next
4:00:16 to my
4:00:17 name
4:00:17 and I
4:00:18 figured out
4:00:18 that you
4:00:18 can add
4:00:19 even more
4:00:19 by pinning
4:00:20 them
4:00:21 it’s like
4:00:21 a cool
4:00:22 little
4:00:23 art icon
4:00:24 we didn’t
4:00:24 expect it
4:00:25 by the way
4:00:26 we just
4:00:27 had a lot
4:00:27 of fun
4:00:28 launching
4:00:28 these things
4:00:29 and then
4:00:30 we realized
4:00:31 that
4:00:32 one of
4:00:32 the first
4:00:33 collections
4:00:33 we issued
4:00:34 we sold
4:00:35 each piece
4:00:35 at
4:00:36 something
4:00:37 like
4:00:38 five
4:00:39 dollars
4:00:41 and then
4:00:43 the minimum
4:00:44 price
4:00:45 of any
4:00:45 items in
4:00:46 these
4:00:46 collections
4:00:46 currently
4:00:47 is
4:00:47 something
4:00:47 like
4:00:48 ten thousand
4:00:48 dollars
4:00:50 and it
4:00:51 keeps going
4:00:51 up
4:00:53 so
4:00:54 I was
4:00:55 quite surprised
4:00:56 with the
4:00:56 reception
4:00:57 I realized
4:00:58 when you
4:00:59 are trying
4:01:00 to monetize
4:01:01 social media
4:01:01 platform
4:01:02 in a way
4:01:02 that is
4:01:03 consistent
4:01:03 with your
4:01:04 values
4:01:04 you’re
4:01:05 forced
4:01:05 to
4:01:06 find
4:01:07 ways
4:01:08 that
4:01:09 benefit
4:01:10 your
4:01:10 users
4:01:11 not
4:01:12 exploit
4:01:12 them
4:01:13 people
4:01:14 love
4:01:14 these
4:01:14 gifts
4:01:15 people
4:01:16 love
4:01:16 the fact
4:01:16 that they
4:01:17 can
4:01:18 congratulate
4:01:19 a person
4:01:19 close to
4:01:19 them
4:01:20 with
4:01:20 something
4:01:21 valuable
4:01:22 and at
4:01:22 the same
4:01:22 time
4:01:22 something
4:01:23 beautiful
4:01:24 also
4:01:24 some
4:01:25 people
4:01:25 make a
4:01:26 business
4:01:26 out of
4:01:26 it
4:01:26 which
4:01:27 is
4:01:27 funny
4:01:28 they
4:01:28 resell
4:01:28 these
4:01:28 gifts
4:01:29 we
4:01:30 recently
4:01:30 met a
4:01:31 guy
4:01:31 who
4:01:31 earned
4:01:33 several
4:01:33 million
4:01:33 dollars
4:01:36 just
4:01:37 from
4:01:37 buying
4:01:38 and selling
4:01:38 gifts
4:01:38 it’s a real
4:01:39 market
4:01:40 it’s a real
4:01:40 market
4:01:41 it’s just
4:01:42 something that
4:01:42 he did
4:01:42 in a few
4:01:43 months
4:01:44 and last
4:01:44 year
4:01:45 when we
4:01:46 launched
4:01:48 many new
4:01:49 features for
4:01:49 the mini
4:01:50 apps on
4:01:50 Telegram
4:01:51 and
4:01:53 the
4:01:53 payment
4:01:53 options
4:01:54 for
4:01:54 them
4:01:54 and
4:01:54 the
4:01:55 other
4:01:55 monetization
4:01:56 options
4:01:57 the
4:01:57 same
4:01:58 guy
4:01:59 earned
4:01:59 12
4:02:00 million
4:02:00 dollars
4:02:02 from
4:02:03 mini
4:02:03 apps
4:02:04 and I
4:02:04 know
4:02:04 several
4:02:05 people
4:02:06 anecdotally
4:02:07 I earned
4:02:08 10
4:02:08 million
4:02:08 dollars
4:02:09 earned
4:02:09 3
4:02:09 million
4:02:10 dollars
4:02:10 just a
4:02:11 matter
4:02:11 of
4:02:11 months
4:02:12 single
4:02:12 handedly
4:02:13 sometimes
4:02:14 they would
4:02:14 have a
4:02:15 team of
4:02:15 2-3
4:02:15 people
4:02:17 so
4:02:17 whenever
4:02:18 I hear
4:02:18 stories
4:02:18 from
4:02:20 people
4:02:20 who
4:02:22 were able
4:02:23 to build
4:02:23 businesses
4:02:24 on top
4:02:24 of
4:02:25 Telegram
4:02:25 this
4:02:25 makes
4:02:25 me
4:02:26 incredibly
4:02:26 proud
4:02:27 and
4:02:28 many
4:02:28 apps
4:02:28 include
4:02:29 games
4:02:29 they include
4:02:31 tools
4:02:31 services
4:02:31 of any
4:02:32 kind
4:02:32 it’s an
4:02:33 app
4:02:33 within the
4:02:34 ecosystem
4:02:34 of Telegram
4:02:35 let me
4:02:35 let me
4:02:36 ask you
4:02:36 about
4:02:36 crypto
4:02:36 in
4:02:36 general
4:02:37 so
4:02:37 you’ve
4:02:38 been
4:02:38 an
4:02:38 early
4:02:38 supporter
4:02:39 of
4:02:40 cryptocurrencies
4:02:42 bitcoin
4:02:44 you’ve
4:02:44 bought
4:02:45 into
4:02:45 bitcoin
4:02:45 early
4:02:46 on
4:02:46 you
4:02:46 kept
4:02:46 buying
4:02:49 maybe
4:02:49 you could
4:02:50 speak
4:02:50 to the
4:02:50 reasoning
4:02:51 why
4:02:51 you kept
4:02:51 buying
4:02:52 bitcoin
4:02:54 do you
4:02:54 think bitcoin
4:02:55 will go
4:02:55 to a million
4:02:55 dollars
4:02:56 do you think
4:02:56 it’ll keep
4:02:56 increasing
4:02:58 and bitcoin
4:02:59 and all the
4:02:59 other
4:03:00 cryptocurrencies
4:03:02 I was a big
4:03:03 believer in
4:03:03 bitcoins
4:03:04 since
4:03:05 more or less
4:03:06 the start
4:03:06 of it
4:03:08 I got to
4:03:08 buy my
4:03:09 first few
4:03:10 thousand of
4:03:10 bitcoin
4:03:11 in
4:03:13 2013
4:03:14 and I
4:03:14 didn’t care
4:03:15 much
4:03:16 I think
4:03:16 I bought
4:03:17 at the
4:03:18 local maximum
4:03:19 it’s something
4:03:20 like 700
4:03:21 dollars per
4:03:21 bitcoin
4:03:23 and I just
4:03:23 threw a
4:03:23 couple of
4:03:24 millions
4:03:24 there
4:03:26 and a lot
4:03:26 of people
4:03:27 after bitcoin
4:03:28 later
4:03:30 next year
4:03:31 went down
4:03:32 somewhere
4:03:33 close to
4:03:33 300
4:03:34 200
4:03:36 started to
4:03:37 express
4:03:38 their
4:03:40 sympathy
4:03:41 to me
4:03:41 they said
4:03:41 oh
4:03:42 you’re a
4:03:42 poor
4:03:43 fellow
4:03:44 you made
4:03:44 this horrible
4:03:45 mistake
4:03:45 investing in
4:03:46 this new
4:03:46 thing
4:03:47 but
4:03:48 don’t feel
4:03:49 bad about
4:03:49 it
4:03:50 we still
4:03:51 have some
4:03:51 respect for
4:03:52 you
4:03:53 and I
4:03:54 my response
4:03:55 to them
4:03:55 were I
4:03:55 don’t care
4:03:56 I’m not
4:03:56 going to
4:03:56 sell it
4:03:59 I believe
4:03:59 in this
4:04:00 thing
4:04:00 I think
4:04:01 this is
4:04:01 the way
4:04:02 money
4:04:03 should
4:04:03 work
4:04:06 nobody
4:04:07 can
4:04:07 confiscate
4:04:08 your
4:04:08 bitcoin
4:04:08 from
4:04:08 you
4:04:10 nobody
4:04:10 can
4:04:10 censor
4:04:11 you
4:04:12 for
4:04:13 political
4:04:13 reasons
4:04:15 this is
4:04:15 the
4:04:18 ultimate
4:04:22 means
4:04:22 of
4:04:23 exchange
4:04:24 and
4:04:25 again
4:04:25 I’m
4:04:26 talking
4:04:26 about
4:04:26 bitcoin
4:04:27 but
4:04:27 it
4:04:27 relates
4:04:28 to
4:04:29 cryptocurrencies
4:04:29 in
4:04:30 general
4:04:31 so
4:04:31 I
4:04:32 have
4:04:33 been
4:04:33 able
4:04:33 to
4:04:33 fund
4:04:34 my
4:04:36 lifestyle
4:04:36 so to
4:04:36 say
4:04:37 from my
4:04:37 bitcoin
4:04:38 investment
4:04:39 some
4:04:39 some
4:04:39 people
4:04:40 think
4:04:41 if
4:04:41 I’m
4:04:41 able
4:04:41 to
4:04:41 rent
4:04:42 nice
4:04:43 locations
4:04:43 or
4:04:45 fly
4:04:45 private
4:04:46 it’s
4:04:46 because
4:04:46 I
4:04:47 somehow
4:04:47 extract
4:04:48 money
4:04:48 from
4:04:49 telegram
4:04:49 but like
4:04:50 I said
4:04:51 telegram
4:04:51 is
4:04:52 a
4:04:53 money
4:04:53 losing
4:04:54 operation
4:04:54 for me
4:04:55 personally
4:04:57 bitcoin
4:04:57 is
4:04:58 something
4:04:58 that
4:04:58 allowed
4:04:59 me
4:04:59 to
4:05:03 stay
4:05:04 afloat
4:05:06 and
4:05:06 I
4:05:07 believe
4:05:07 it
4:05:07 will
4:05:07 come
4:05:08 to
4:05:08 a
4:05:08 point
4:05:09 when
4:05:09 bitcoin
4:05:10 is
4:05:10 worth
4:05:10 one
4:05:10 million
4:05:11 dollars
4:05:12 just
4:05:12 look at
4:05:13 the
4:05:13 trends
4:05:14 the
4:05:14 governments
4:05:15 keep
4:05:15 bringing
4:05:15 money
4:05:15 like
4:05:16 no
4:05:16 tomorrow
4:05:19 nobody’s
4:05:19 bringing
4:05:19 bitcoin
4:05:20 there is
4:05:22 a
4:05:22 predictable
4:05:23 inflation
4:05:24 and then
4:05:24 it stops
4:05:25 at a
4:05:25 certain
4:05:26 point
4:05:27 and
4:05:30 bitcoin
4:05:30 is
4:05:30 here
4:05:30 to
4:05:31 stay
4:05:31 all
4:05:31 the
4:05:31 fiat
4:05:32 currencies
4:05:33 remains
4:05:33 to be
4:05:34 seen
4:05:35 let me
4:05:35 ask you
4:05:36 a deeply
4:05:36 philosophical
4:05:37 serious
4:05:37 question
4:05:38 in your
4:05:38 first
4:05:38 talker
4:05:38 interview
4:05:39 you had
4:05:39 two
4:05:40 interesting
4:05:40 chairs
4:05:41 in the
4:05:41 background
4:05:42 I
4:05:42 think
4:05:43 they
4:05:43 reference
4:05:44 a
4:05:44 now
4:05:44 legendary
4:05:45 meme
4:05:46 the
4:05:46 choice
4:05:47 is
4:05:47 piki
4:05:48 tachone
4:05:49 or
4:05:49 huid
4:05:50 drachone
4:05:52 what is
4:05:52 the
4:05:53 philosophical
4:05:53 wisdom
4:05:54 in the
4:05:54 dilemma
4:05:54 that
4:05:55 these
4:05:55 two
4:05:55 chairs
4:05:56 present
4:05:57 have
4:05:57 you
4:05:57 had
4:05:57 to
4:05:57 face
4:05:57 the
4:05:58 dilemma
4:05:58 yourself
4:05:59 personally
4:05:59 not
4:06:00 this
4:06:00 exact
4:06:00 dilemma
4:06:01 I
4:06:01 think
4:06:01 this
4:06:02 is
4:06:03 a
4:06:03 riddle
4:06:04 that
4:06:05 people
4:06:05 have
4:06:05 to
4:06:05 face
4:06:06 in
4:06:07 Russian
4:06:07 prisons
4:06:10 and
4:06:11 metaphorically
4:06:14 it’s
4:06:15 describing
4:06:16 all the
4:06:17 situations
4:06:17 where
4:06:18 you
4:06:18 presented
4:06:18 a
4:06:19 choice
4:06:20 between
4:06:20 two
4:06:21 suboptimal
4:06:22 options
4:06:23 when you
4:06:24 are running
4:06:24 a big
4:06:25 business
4:06:25 or
4:06:26 when you
4:06:26 are running
4:06:26 a large
4:06:27 country
4:06:28 it is
4:06:28 similar
4:06:28 you
4:06:29 sometimes
4:06:30 face
4:06:30 this
4:06:30 dilemma
4:06:31 what
4:06:31 are you
4:06:31 going
4:06:31 to
4:06:31 do
4:06:33 this
4:06:33 very
4:06:33 horrible
4:06:34 thing
4:06:34 or
4:06:35 this
4:06:35 also
4:06:35 very
4:06:36 horrible
4:06:36 thing
4:06:38 so I think
4:06:39 the right
4:06:39 answer to
4:06:40 this
4:06:40 riddle
4:06:41 is
4:06:42 not to
4:06:43 do
4:06:43 any
4:06:43 of
4:06:43 these
4:06:43 things
4:06:47 reframe
4:06:48 the
4:06:48 question
4:06:51 design
4:06:51 design
4:06:51 a solution
4:06:52 that
4:06:52 turns
4:06:55 a
4:06:55 disadvantage
4:06:56 into
4:06:56 an
4:06:57 advantage
4:06:58 and
4:06:59 then
4:07:00 use
4:07:00 it
4:07:01 to
4:07:02 cope
4:07:02 with
4:07:02 the
4:07:02 other
4:07:03 side
4:07:03 of
4:07:03 the
4:07:03 problem
4:07:05 so do
4:07:05 you know
4:07:05 the answer
4:07:06 to that
4:07:06 riddle
4:07:07 no
4:07:07 somebody
4:07:07 on the
4:07:08 internet
4:07:08 said
4:07:13 which is
4:07:15 basically
4:07:18 try to
4:07:19 avoid
4:07:19 the
4:07:20 situations
4:07:20 where such
4:07:21 dilemmas
4:07:21 present
4:07:21 themselves
4:07:22 where there
4:07:23 is no
4:07:23 right
4:07:23 answer
4:07:24 this is
4:07:25 one of
4:07:25 the ways
4:07:26 to answer
4:07:27 this
4:07:27 question
4:07:27 if
4:07:28 if you
4:07:29 got to
4:07:29 a tricky
4:07:30 situation
4:07:30 that
4:07:31 probably
4:07:31 earlier
4:07:32 you made
4:07:32 a certain
4:07:33 mistake
4:07:33 you fucked
4:07:34 up already
4:07:35 should have
4:07:35 been avoided
4:07:36 but the
4:07:37 other
4:07:37 quite
4:07:37 creative
4:07:38 answer
4:07:38 to this
4:07:38 question
4:07:39 is that
4:07:41 you
4:07:45 take
4:07:46 the sharp
4:07:46 objects
4:07:47 from one
4:07:47 of the
4:07:48 chairs
4:07:49 or the
4:07:49 spikes
4:07:51 and then
4:07:52 they use
4:07:52 them
4:07:53 to cut
4:07:54 off
4:07:55 the
4:07:55 objects
4:07:55 from the
4:07:56 other
4:07:56 chair
4:07:57 and you
4:07:58 know what
4:07:58 objects
4:07:59 I’m talking
4:07:59 about
4:08:00 that’s a
4:08:00 very
4:08:00 engineering
4:08:01 solution
4:08:01 I’m glad
4:08:02 somebody
4:08:02 came up
4:08:02 with that
4:08:05 I believe
4:08:05 this is the
4:08:06 right answer
4:08:07 we are often
4:08:08 being manipulated
4:08:11 by politicians
4:08:13 by corporate
4:08:13 leaders
4:08:16 to make
4:08:17 a choice
4:08:18 from two
4:08:18 suboptimal
4:08:19 options
4:08:20 and then
4:08:20 when we
4:08:21 are forced
4:08:21 to make
4:08:21 this choice
4:08:22 and we
4:08:22 make this
4:08:22 choice
4:08:23 it’s
4:08:23 almost
4:08:24 as if
4:08:26 it’s
4:08:26 something
4:08:26 that we
4:08:27 have to
4:08:27 assume
4:08:28 responsibility
4:08:28 for
4:08:30 I don’t
4:08:31 think
4:08:31 we should
4:08:32 be buying
4:08:33 into that
4:08:34 okay
4:08:35 on this
4:08:35 theme
4:08:36 of absurdity
4:08:37 and ridiculousness
4:08:38 let me
4:08:38 there’s an
4:08:39 object here
4:08:40 that
4:08:42 appeared
4:08:42 in
4:08:45 not many
4:08:45 people seem
4:08:45 to have
4:08:46 noticed this
4:08:46 people should
4:08:47 go watch
4:08:49 in the
4:08:50 Oslo
4:08:50 freedom
4:08:50 forum
4:08:51 behind
4:08:52 you
4:08:52 I’m
4:08:53 no
4:08:54 archaeologist
4:08:55 but I
4:08:56 believe
4:08:56 this is
4:08:56 a
4:08:58 a
4:09:00 how should
4:09:00 I put
4:09:00 it
4:09:01 a
4:09:03 walrus
4:09:04 penis
4:09:04 bone
4:09:07 and it
4:09:07 was behind
4:09:08 you
4:09:09 you told
4:09:09 me that
4:09:10 you brought
4:09:11 it with
4:09:11 you
4:09:12 to
4:09:13 France
4:09:13 and back
4:09:14 to Dubai
4:09:15 I assume
4:09:16 it brings
4:09:16 you luck
4:09:17 of some
4:09:17 sort
4:09:18 what’s
4:09:19 what’s
4:09:19 what
4:09:20 why did
4:09:21 you bring
4:09:21 it with
4:09:22 you everywhere
4:09:22 is it
4:09:22 kind of
4:09:22 like
4:09:23 you know
4:09:24 in America
4:09:24 they have
4:09:24 a wish
4:09:25 bone
4:09:26 is it
4:09:26 just a
4:09:27 large
4:09:27 wish
4:09:28 bone
4:09:28 the wish
4:09:29 bone
4:09:29 brings
4:09:29 you luck
4:09:31 and I
4:09:31 should
4:09:31 also
4:09:31 point
4:09:32 out
4:09:32 that
4:09:32 just
4:09:32 like
4:09:33 with
4:09:33 telegram
4:09:33 with
4:09:33 the
4:09:34 art
4:09:34 there’s
4:09:35 tiny
4:09:35 little
4:09:35 walruses
4:09:37 and thanks
4:09:37 to you
4:09:37 I had
4:09:38 to also
4:09:38 find out
4:09:38 that a
4:09:39 lot
4:09:39 of
4:09:39 mammals
4:09:40 have
4:09:40 a bone
4:09:40 inside
4:09:42 the
4:09:43 evolutionary
4:09:43 advantage
4:09:44 I guess
4:09:44 of having
4:09:44 a bone
4:09:45 is quite
4:09:45 obvious
4:09:46 and it
4:09:46 actually
4:09:47 raises
4:09:47 the
4:09:47 question
4:09:47 of why
4:09:48 humans
4:09:48 don’t have
4:09:49 an actual
4:09:50 bone
4:09:50 inside
4:09:50 their
4:09:51 penis
4:09:52 a lot
4:09:52 of
4:09:53 questions
4:09:53 there
4:09:53 that’s
4:09:54 a very
4:09:54 interesting
4:09:55 subject
4:09:56 the reason
4:09:57 I have
4:09:57 this
4:09:58 is
4:09:58 because
4:09:59 a
4:10:01 tribe
4:10:01 that
4:10:01 is
4:10:03 almost
4:10:04 gone
4:10:04 extinct
4:10:05 in Siberia
4:10:06 and Mongolia
4:10:06 called
4:10:07 the Venki
4:10:08 passed me
4:10:09 this gift
4:10:10 from them
4:10:11 normally
4:10:12 they would
4:10:12 craft
4:10:13 something
4:10:13 like
4:10:13 this
4:10:14 only
4:10:14 for
4:10:14 their
4:10:15 most
4:10:16 respected
4:10:16 leaders
4:10:17 it is
4:10:18 supposed
4:10:18 to be
4:10:19 a token
4:10:20 of
4:10:21 their
4:10:21 appreciation
4:10:22 for
4:10:22 bravery
4:10:23 courage
4:10:24 leadership
4:10:27 ironically
4:10:29 it also
4:10:29 translates
4:10:32 in a
4:10:32 very specific
4:10:33 way into
4:10:33 the Russian
4:10:34 language
4:10:35 in Russian
4:10:37 walrus’s
4:10:37 penis
4:10:38 means
4:10:39 something
4:10:40 a bit
4:10:40 funny
4:10:41 which is
4:10:42 often
4:10:42 used
4:10:43 to
4:10:44 describe
4:10:45 nothing
4:10:46 so for
4:10:47 example
4:10:47 if
4:10:48 you’re being
4:10:49 requested
4:10:51 by say
4:10:51 certain
4:10:52 government
4:10:54 or a
4:10:54 certain
4:10:55 business
4:10:55 partner
4:10:58 to provide
4:10:58 something
4:10:59 that you’re
4:10:59 not willing
4:11:00 to provide
4:11:02 you can
4:11:02 just
4:11:02 politely
4:11:04 have
4:11:04 this
4:11:06 penis
4:11:06 bone
4:11:07 in the
4:11:08 background
4:11:08 while you’re
4:11:08 doing the
4:11:09 video call
4:11:12 and hope
4:11:12 that they
4:11:13 would
4:11:14 through
4:11:15 osmosis
4:11:15 figure out
4:11:16 the deep
4:11:16 message
4:11:17 it is
4:11:18 indirect
4:11:20 rebellion
4:11:22 by the
4:11:22 way
4:11:23 in the
4:11:23 form
4:11:23 of
4:11:24 Soviet
4:11:24 Union
4:11:24 there
4:11:24 was
4:11:26 in a
4:11:26 lot
4:11:26 of
4:11:26 places
4:11:27 throughout
4:11:27 history
4:11:27 some
4:11:28 of
4:11:28 the
4:11:28 rebellion
4:11:28 had to
4:11:29 take
4:11:29 this
4:11:29 kind
4:11:29 of
4:11:30 symbolic
4:11:31 metaphoric
4:11:31 form
4:11:33 through poetry
4:11:33 through
4:11:34 children’s
4:11:34 stories
4:11:35 it’s
4:11:36 the
4:11:37 beauty
4:11:37 of
4:11:38 human
4:11:38 language
4:11:40 and art
4:11:40 that we’re
4:11:40 able to
4:11:41 do that
4:11:41 say
4:11:42 F-U
4:11:42 to whatever
4:11:43 forces
4:11:44 that try
4:11:44 to overpower
4:11:45 us
4:11:45 we say
4:11:46 F-U
4:11:46 through poetry
4:11:47 through art
4:11:48 and sometimes
4:11:48 through
4:11:50 a rather
4:11:50 large
4:11:51 walrus
4:11:51 penis
4:11:51 bone
4:11:54 carried
4:11:55 by
4:11:55 what
4:11:55 appears
4:11:56 to be
4:11:57 either
4:11:57 a
4:11:57 happy
4:11:58 sumo
4:11:58 wrestler
4:11:59 or a
4:11:59 cat
4:11:59 of
4:11:59 some
4:12:00 sort
4:12:01 they
4:12:01 asked
4:12:01 a lot
4:12:01 of
4:12:02 questions
4:12:02 about
4:12:02 this
4:12:04 walrus
4:12:04 penis
4:12:05 bone
4:12:06 in the
4:12:07 airport
4:12:08 both
4:12:09 here
4:12:09 in the
4:12:10 UAE
4:12:10 and in
4:12:10 France
4:12:11 they are
4:12:12 always
4:12:12 very
4:12:12 interested
4:12:13 in
4:12:13 this
4:12:13 thing
4:12:16 there
4:12:16 seems
4:12:16 to be
4:12:17 some
4:12:17 confusion
4:12:18 over
4:12:18 how
4:12:18 many
4:12:18 kids
4:12:19 you
4:12:19 have
4:12:21 it’s
4:12:21 often
4:12:22 said
4:12:22 to be
4:12:22 over
4:12:23 100
4:12:23 can
4:12:23 you
4:12:24 explain
4:12:25 how
4:12:26 many
4:12:26 kids
4:12:26 you
4:12:26 have
4:12:28 the
4:12:28 truthful
4:12:28 answer
4:12:29 to this
4:12:29 question
4:12:30 is
4:12:30 I
4:12:30 don’t
4:12:30 really
4:12:31 know
4:12:32 how
4:12:32 many
4:12:33 biological
4:12:33 kids
4:12:33 I have
4:12:34 exactly
4:12:35 because
4:12:35 because
4:12:36 at a
4:12:36 certain
4:12:36 point
4:12:36 in my
4:12:37 life
4:12:37 about
4:12:37 15
4:12:38 years
4:12:38 ago
4:12:38 I
4:12:39 decided
4:12:41 that
4:12:44 it
4:12:44 was a
4:12:44 good
4:12:45 idea
4:12:45 to be
4:12:45 a
4:12:45 sperm
4:12:46 donor
4:12:48 initially
4:12:48 a friend
4:12:49 of mine
4:12:49 asked me
4:12:50 to help
4:12:52 because
4:12:52 they were
4:12:53 trying to
4:12:53 have a
4:12:53 baby
4:12:54 with his
4:12:54 wife
4:12:54 and
4:12:58 they
4:12:58 experienced
4:12:59 certain
4:12:59 health
4:12:59 issues
4:13:00 that
4:13:00 prevented
4:13:00 them
4:13:01 to
4:13:01 do
4:13:01 the
4:13:02 natural
4:13:02 way
4:13:03 and
4:13:03 he
4:13:05 told me
4:13:05 we don’t
4:13:05 want to
4:13:06 rely on
4:13:07 some
4:13:08 random
4:13:08 anonymous
4:13:10 genetic
4:13:10 material
4:13:11 we want
4:13:12 somebody
4:13:13 we know
4:13:14 and
4:13:15 respect
4:13:16 to be
4:13:16 the
4:13:17 biological
4:13:17 father
4:13:17 of
4:13:18 our
4:13:18 kid
4:13:19 and
4:13:19 I
4:13:19 said
4:13:21 you
4:13:21 gotta be
4:13:21 kidding
4:13:22 me
4:13:23 sounds
4:13:23 ridiculous
4:13:24 what are you
4:13:25 even talking
4:13:25 about
4:13:27 but then I
4:13:27 realized
4:13:28 it’s
4:13:28 it’s
4:13:29 actually
4:13:29 a serious
4:13:29 issue
4:13:30 and
4:13:30 they
4:13:31 were
4:13:31 not
4:13:31 the
4:13:31 only
4:13:32 couple
4:13:32 struggling
4:13:32 with
4:13:33 that
4:13:33 so
4:13:34 eventually
4:13:34 I
4:13:35 got
4:13:35 persuaded
4:13:35 into
4:13:36 doing
4:13:36 more
4:13:36 of it
4:13:37 I
4:13:38 can’t
4:13:38 say
4:13:38 I’m
4:13:38 incredibly
4:13:39 proud
4:13:39 of that
4:13:39 but
4:13:40 I
4:13:40 think
4:13:40 it was
4:13:40 the
4:13:40 right
4:13:41 thing
4:13:41 to
4:13:41 do
4:13:41 particularly
4:13:42 at the
4:13:42 time
4:13:42 when I
4:13:42 thought
4:13:43 okay
4:13:43 I
4:13:43 probably
4:13:44 don’t
4:13:44 have
4:13:44 much
4:13:45 time
4:13:46 on
4:13:46 this
4:13:47 planet
4:13:48 left
4:13:49 things
4:13:50 are getting
4:13:50 trickier
4:13:51 and trickier
4:13:53 so if
4:13:53 I can
4:13:53 help
4:13:54 some
4:13:55 couples
4:13:56 have
4:13:56 babies
4:13:57 let’s
4:13:58 do it
4:14:00 and
4:14:00 then more
4:14:00 recently
4:14:01 when I
4:14:02 was working
4:14:02 on my
4:14:02 will
4:14:04 I
4:14:04 realized
4:14:05 that
4:14:06 I
4:14:07 shouldn’t
4:14:07 make a
4:14:08 distinction
4:14:08 between
4:14:09 the
4:14:09 kids
4:14:10 conceived
4:14:11 naturally
4:14:13 and
4:14:13 the
4:14:14 kids
4:14:14 who
4:14:14 are
4:14:14 just
4:14:14 my
4:14:15 biological
4:14:15 kids
4:14:16 that I
4:14:16 never
4:14:16 seen
4:14:18 as long
4:14:19 as they
4:14:19 can
4:14:20 establish
4:14:21 their
4:14:25 shared
4:14:25 DNA
4:14:26 with me
4:14:29 someday
4:14:30 maybe in
4:14:31 30 years
4:14:31 from now
4:14:33 they
4:14:33 have
4:14:34 to be
4:14:36 entitled
4:14:37 for a
4:14:38 share
4:14:39 of my
4:14:39 estate
4:14:40 after I’m
4:14:41 gone
4:14:42 and that
4:14:43 made a lot
4:14:44 of noise
4:14:44 in the
4:14:44 news
4:14:45 for some
4:14:46 reason
4:14:47 people get
4:14:47 very excited
4:14:48 by this
4:14:48 kind of
4:14:48 news
4:14:49 I
4:14:49 I
4:14:50 got a lot
4:14:50 of
4:14:50 messages
4:14:51 from
4:14:52 people
4:14:52 claiming
4:14:52 they’re
4:14:52 my
4:14:53 kids
4:14:54 I
4:14:54 got a
4:14:55 lot
4:14:55 of
4:14:55 requests
4:14:55 from
4:14:56 people
4:14:57 asking
4:14:57 me
4:14:57 to
4:14:57 adopt
4:14:58 them
4:14:59 the
4:15:00 memes
4:15:00 were
4:15:00 priceless
4:15:01 but
4:15:03 understanding
4:15:03 that
4:15:05 it’s not
4:15:05 a thing
4:15:05 that
4:15:06 most
4:15:06 people
4:15:07 do
4:15:07 I
4:15:07 don’t
4:15:07 see
4:15:08 anything
4:15:08 wrong
4:15:08 with
4:15:08 it
4:15:09 anything
4:15:10 I
4:15:10 think
4:15:10 more
4:15:11 people
4:15:11 should
4:15:13 be
4:15:13 donating
4:15:14 sperm
4:15:14 so
4:15:15 we
4:15:15 should
4:15:15 say
4:15:15 like
4:15:16 the
4:15:16 100
4:15:16 plus
4:15:17 kids
4:15:18 is
4:15:18 from
4:15:18 that
4:15:18 and
4:15:19 you
4:15:19 also
4:15:19 have
4:15:20 naturally
4:15:21 conceived
4:15:22 kids
4:15:23 and it
4:15:23 was a
4:15:23 pretty
4:15:24 bold
4:15:24 decision
4:15:25 to
4:15:27 from a
4:15:27 financial
4:15:27 perspective
4:15:28 to treat
4:15:28 them all
4:15:29 equally
4:15:32 and
4:15:32 also
4:15:33 quite
4:15:33 interesting
4:15:33 was
4:15:34 that
4:15:35 you
4:15:37 kind
4:15:37 of
4:15:38 said
4:15:38 that
4:15:38 they
4:15:38 don’t
4:15:39 receive
4:15:39 any
4:15:39 money
4:15:41 for
4:15:41 the
4:15:41 first
4:15:42 few
4:15:42 decades
4:15:42 of their
4:15:43 life
4:15:43 can you
4:15:43 describe
4:15:44 that
4:15:44 thinking
4:15:46 yeah
4:15:46 I
4:15:47 think
4:15:48 overabundance
4:15:51 paralyzes
4:15:52 motivation
4:15:53 and willpower
4:15:54 is
4:15:55 extremely
4:15:56 harmful
4:15:56 particularly
4:15:57 for
4:15:57 young
4:15:58 boys
4:15:58 to
4:15:59 grow up
4:15:59 in an
4:16:00 environment
4:16:00 where
4:16:01 they
4:16:02 can be
4:16:02 proud
4:16:03 not
4:16:04 of their
4:16:05 own
4:16:05 achievements
4:16:06 but of
4:16:07 their
4:16:08 father’s
4:16:08 achievements
4:16:08 over
4:16:08 their
4:16:09 father’s
4:16:09 wealth
4:16:11 this
4:16:13 removes
4:16:15 the
4:16:15 incentive
4:16:16 to
4:16:20 work
4:16:21 on
4:16:22 developing
4:16:22 their
4:16:23 own
4:16:23 skills
4:16:25 removes
4:16:25 the
4:16:25 incentive
4:16:26 to
4:16:26 study
4:16:26 to
4:16:27 work
4:16:29 so I
4:16:29 thought
4:16:30 if they’re
4:16:30 gonna
4:16:31 have
4:16:32 this
4:16:34 money
4:16:35 money
4:16:37 it should
4:16:37 be
4:16:37 something
4:16:38 that
4:16:38 they
4:16:39 would
4:16:40 only
4:16:40 get
4:16:42 when
4:16:42 they’re
4:16:42 already
4:16:43 adult
4:16:46 it’s
4:16:46 still
4:16:46 risky
4:16:48 but one
4:16:49 of the
4:16:49 reasons I
4:16:50 decided
4:16:50 it makes
4:16:51 more sense
4:16:52 to divide
4:16:52 to divide
4:16:53 this
4:16:56 huge
4:16:56 wealth
4:16:57 that
4:16:59 I’m
4:17:00 likely to
4:17:00 leave
4:17:01 behind
4:17:03 among
4:17:04 a hundred
4:17:05 or more
4:17:05 than a
4:17:05 hundred
4:17:06 people
4:17:07 is that
4:17:08 it won’t
4:17:09 be too
4:17:09 much
4:17:11 for
4:17:12 every
4:17:13 single
4:17:15 descendant
4:17:16 but
4:17:17 at the
4:17:17 same
4:17:18 time
4:17:19 some
4:17:19 people
4:17:19 did
4:17:20 the
4:17:20 calculation
4:17:21 it’s
4:17:22 still
4:17:24 many
4:17:24 many
4:17:24 millions
4:17:25 of
4:17:25 dollars
4:17:26 for
4:17:26 each
4:17:27 child
4:17:27 so
4:17:28 I’m
4:17:28 not
4:17:29 sure
4:17:29 it
4:17:31 helps
4:17:32 too
4:17:32 much
4:17:34 on the
4:17:34 topic
4:17:34 of
4:17:35 abundance
4:17:35 offline
4:17:36 we had
4:17:37 a lot
4:17:37 of
4:17:37 fascinating
4:17:38 philosophical
4:17:38 discussions
4:17:39 one of
4:17:39 which
4:17:40 was
4:17:40 about
4:17:40 the
4:17:40 mouse
4:17:41 paradise
4:17:41 experiment
4:17:42 also
4:17:43 known as
4:17:43 universe
4:17:44 25
4:17:45 it’s
4:17:46 an
4:17:46 experiment
4:17:47 from
4:17:48 the
4:17:49 1960s
4:17:49 and
4:17:49 early
4:17:50 70s
4:17:51 conducted
4:17:52 by
4:17:53 ethologist
4:17:53 John
4:17:54 B.
4:17:54 Calhoun
4:17:55 and
4:17:56 we can
4:17:56 talk
4:17:56 about
4:17:56 this
4:17:56 one
4:17:57 for
4:17:58 hours
4:17:58 also
4:17:58 I’m
4:17:59 sure
4:18:00 but
4:18:00 it was
4:18:00 an
4:18:00 experiment
4:18:01 with
4:18:02 a few
4:18:03 hundreds
4:18:03 of
4:18:04 individual
4:18:04 mice
4:18:05 compartments
4:18:07 and
4:18:07 they
4:18:08 provided
4:18:08 them
4:18:08 with
4:18:09 unlimited
4:18:09 food
4:18:09 water
4:18:10 nesting
4:18:10 no
4:18:11 predators
4:18:11 stable
4:18:12 temperatures
4:18:12 and
4:18:13 frequent
4:18:13 cleaning
4:18:14 basically
4:18:15 the
4:18:15 definition
4:18:15 of
4:18:16 abundance
4:18:16 as far
4:18:16 as
4:18:17 mice
4:18:17 go
4:18:18 and
4:18:18 the
4:18:19 interesting
4:18:19 aspect
4:18:20 of
4:18:20 this
4:18:20 experiment
4:18:21 is that
4:18:22 at first
4:18:23 the population
4:18:23 doubled
4:18:24 it grew
4:18:24 very quickly
4:18:25 but then
4:18:26 it leveled
4:18:27 off
4:18:28 and
4:18:29 certain
4:18:29 really
4:18:30 negative
4:18:31 social
4:18:31 things
4:18:32 started
4:18:32 happening
4:18:33 like
4:18:33 mothers
4:18:34 neglected
4:18:34 to kill
4:18:34 their
4:18:35 young
4:18:35 violent
4:18:36 attacks
4:18:36 and
4:18:36 hypersexual
4:18:37 activity
4:18:37 became
4:18:37 widespread
4:18:39 some
4:18:39 quote unquote
4:18:40 beautiful
4:18:40 ones
4:18:41 largely
4:18:41 inactive
4:18:42 well-groomed
4:18:42 mice
4:18:43 withdrew
4:18:44 refusing
4:18:44 to
4:18:44 mate
4:18:44 or
4:18:45 interact
4:18:45 so
4:18:45 all
4:18:45 of
4:18:46 these
4:18:46 kind
4:18:46 of
4:18:46 societal
4:18:47 qualities
4:18:47 that we
4:18:48 see as
4:18:48 negative
4:18:49 for the
4:18:49 functioning
4:18:50 of a society
4:18:50 started to
4:18:51 emerge
4:18:52 because of
4:18:53 the abundance
4:18:54 and
4:18:55 finally
4:18:55 the
4:18:56 collapse
4:18:57 the
4:18:58 reproduction
4:18:58 rates
4:18:59 crashed
4:18:59 social
4:19:00 dysfunction
4:19:00 spread
4:19:01 to the
4:19:01 next
4:19:02 generation
4:19:02 and
4:19:02 eventually
4:19:03 just
4:19:03 went
4:19:04 extinct
4:19:04 it
4:19:05 didn’t
4:19:05 just
4:19:06 plummet
4:19:06 to a
4:19:06 low
4:19:07 level
4:19:07 it
4:19:08 plummeted
4:19:08 steadily
4:19:08 to
4:19:09 zero
4:19:10 despite
4:19:11 the fact
4:19:11 that there
4:19:11 was ongoing
4:19:12 resource
4:19:12 abundance
4:19:14 as
4:19:15 this
4:19:16 description
4:19:16 states
4:19:17 the last
4:19:17 miles
4:19:18 died
4:19:18 surrounded
4:19:19 by
4:19:19 untouched
4:19:20 food
4:19:20 and
4:19:21 water
4:19:22 so
4:19:23 I mean
4:19:24 there’s
4:19:24 deep
4:19:24 wisdom
4:19:24 to that
4:19:25 about
4:19:25 abundance
4:19:26 it seems
4:19:27 you’ve
4:19:27 mentioned
4:19:27 this
4:19:28 in
4:19:28 different
4:19:28 contexts
4:19:29 throughout
4:19:30 this
4:19:30 conversation
4:19:31 it seems
4:19:32 like
4:19:32 scarcity
4:19:34 it seems
4:19:34 like
4:19:35 constraints
4:19:36 it seems
4:19:37 like
4:19:38 non-abundance
4:19:40 is
4:19:40 essential
4:19:41 for human
4:19:42 flourishing
4:19:42 which is a
4:19:43 counterintuitive
4:19:44 notion
4:19:45 it’s true
4:19:46 for mice
4:19:46 and I think
4:19:46 it’s probably
4:19:47 true for
4:19:47 humans
4:19:48 too
4:19:49 we have
4:19:50 evolved
4:19:51 to overcome
4:19:51 scarcity
4:19:54 almost by
4:19:54 definition
4:19:55 there’s
4:19:56 never been
4:19:56 such thing
4:19:57 as
4:19:58 infinite
4:19:58 amount
4:19:59 of food
4:20:01 or
4:20:01 entertainment
4:20:03 in our
4:20:03 lives
4:20:03 before
4:20:05 now
4:20:07 we seem
4:20:07 as a
4:20:08 species
4:20:09 to lose
4:20:10 our
4:20:10 ability
4:20:13 to identify
4:20:13 purpose
4:20:14 in a
4:20:14 world
4:20:15 where
4:20:16 you have
4:20:17 everything
4:20:18 and
4:20:18 everything
4:20:18 loses
4:20:19 its
4:20:20 meaning
4:20:23 restrictions
4:20:23 are
4:20:24 important
4:20:24 I think
4:20:25 though
4:20:26 that they
4:20:26 should be
4:20:27 coming from
4:20:27 within
4:20:29 it should
4:20:29 be self
4:20:30 restriction
4:20:30 rather than
4:20:31 restriction
4:20:33 in order to
4:20:33 create
4:20:34 purpose
4:20:35 and meaning
4:20:35 in life
4:20:37 in a way
4:20:37 I was
4:20:37 lucky
4:20:38 in a very
4:20:40 counterintuitive
4:20:41 way
4:20:41 because
4:20:42 I grew
4:20:43 up
4:20:43 poor
4:20:44 I didn’t
4:20:45 have money
4:20:45 when I
4:20:45 was a
4:20:46 teenager
4:20:48 I had
4:20:49 the same
4:20:49 jacket
4:20:50 for years
4:20:52 which was
4:20:53 bought on a
4:20:53 second-hand
4:20:55 marketplace
4:20:57 my father
4:20:58 wouldn’t
4:20:58 receive
4:21:00 his
4:21:01 salary
4:21:01 as a
4:21:02 university
4:21:02 professor
4:21:03 for months
4:21:03 because
4:21:05 the
4:21:05 Russian
4:21:05 state
4:21:06 was
4:21:07 almost
4:21:07 bankrupt
4:21:07 back
4:21:08 then
4:21:10 my
4:21:10 mom
4:21:11 had to
4:21:12 juggle
4:21:13 two jobs
4:21:15 to take
4:21:16 care of
4:21:16 us
4:21:16 it was
4:21:18 not easy
4:21:19 but it
4:21:20 also created
4:21:20 purpose
4:21:21 it created
4:21:22 meaning
4:21:24 it created
4:21:24 priorities
4:21:27 it allowed
4:21:28 us to
4:21:29 focus on
4:21:29 things that
4:21:30 mattered
4:21:31 allowed us
4:21:31 to
4:21:34 develop
4:21:35 our
4:21:36 character
4:21:37 and
4:21:37 intellectual
4:21:38 abilities
4:21:39 now if
4:21:40 we had
4:21:41 everything
4:21:45 why do
4:21:45 anything
4:21:47 this
4:21:48 mice
4:21:52 suffered
4:21:53 societal
4:21:54 collapse
4:21:56 that was
4:21:57 irreversible
4:21:58 and this
4:21:59 is not
4:22:01 an accident
4:22:01 this
4:22:02 kind of
4:22:03 experiment
4:22:03 has been
4:22:04 repeated
4:22:04 countless
4:22:05 times
4:22:06 at a
4:22:06 certain
4:22:07 point
4:22:08 social
4:22:09 dysfunction
4:22:11 and the
4:22:11 erosion
4:22:12 of social
4:22:13 roles
4:22:14 becomes
4:22:14 contagious
4:22:16 and the
4:22:17 society
4:22:18 gradually
4:22:19 degrades
4:22:20 into
4:22:21 into a
4:22:21 chaotic
4:22:23 collection
4:22:24 of
4:22:25 individuals
4:22:26 unable
4:22:28 to take
4:22:28 care of
4:22:28 the next
4:22:29 generation
4:22:30 or even
4:22:30 to produce
4:22:31 the next
4:22:31 generation
4:22:34 and it
4:22:34 goes
4:22:35 extinct
4:22:36 it’s
4:22:36 fascinating
4:22:37 because we’re
4:22:37 creating
4:22:38 technologies
4:22:38 and this
4:22:38 is what
4:22:39 AI is
4:22:40 proposing
4:22:41 to our
4:22:41 future
4:22:42 generations
4:22:44 as a
4:22:44 problem to
4:22:45 solve
4:22:45 which is
4:22:46 AI may
4:22:47 very well
4:22:47 create
4:22:47 abundance
4:22:49 and so
4:22:49 we will
4:22:50 be like
4:22:50 these mice
4:22:51 potentially
4:22:52 whether it’s
4:22:53 AI or
4:22:54 other kinds
4:22:54 of technologies
4:22:56 that increasingly
4:22:56 give more
4:22:57 and more
4:22:58 to all of us
4:22:59 and it is a
4:22:59 thing that is
4:23:00 good
4:23:00 decrease the
4:23:01 amount of
4:23:01 suffering
4:23:01 in the world
4:23:02 increase the
4:23:02 quality of
4:23:03 life
4:23:03 but as we
4:23:04 reach towards
4:23:05 that abundance
4:23:06 the fabric
4:23:07 that connects
4:23:07 us
4:23:09 rooted in
4:23:10 our biology
4:23:10 that’s developed
4:23:11 by evolution
4:23:13 might create
4:23:13 a real
4:23:14 challenge
4:23:15 for us
4:23:16 we should
4:23:16 find the
4:23:17 right balance
4:23:18 between chaos
4:23:18 and order
4:23:20 between
4:23:21 self-restriction
4:23:22 and freedom
4:23:23 for creativity
4:23:25 your father
4:23:27 recently celebrated
4:23:27 his 80th
4:23:28 birthday
4:23:28 you had a
4:23:29 conversation
4:23:29 with him
4:23:31 he gave you
4:23:31 some life
4:23:32 advice
4:23:33 I think
4:23:33 you mentioned
4:23:33 to me
4:23:34 one of the
4:23:34 things he
4:23:34 said
4:23:35 was
4:23:37 not to
4:23:37 just
4:23:39 speak
4:23:40 of your
4:23:40 principles
4:23:41 but to
4:23:42 live them
4:23:42 to lead
4:23:43 by example
4:23:45 I think
4:23:45 this is
4:23:45 something
4:23:46 you already
4:23:46 do
4:23:47 well
4:23:48 maybe
4:23:48 can you
4:23:49 speak
4:23:49 to
4:23:49 what
4:23:49 you’ve
4:23:49 learned
4:23:50 about
4:23:50 life
4:23:50 from
4:23:51 your
4:23:52 father
4:23:54 maybe
4:23:54 some
4:23:54 of the
4:23:55 lessons
4:23:55 he
4:23:55 told
4:23:55 you
4:23:56 in
4:23:57 the
4:23:57 conversation
4:23:58 you’ve
4:23:58 had
4:23:58 with
4:23:58 him
4:24:00 on
4:24:00 his
4:24:00 birthday
4:24:03 I’m
4:24:03 incredibly
4:24:03 lucky
4:24:04 to
4:24:07 have
4:24:08 my
4:24:08 father
4:24:09 he’s
4:24:10 a
4:24:10 person
4:24:11 who
4:24:11 wrote
4:24:14 countless
4:24:15 books
4:24:16 on
4:24:16 ancient
4:24:16 Rome
4:24:17 and
4:24:17 ancient
4:24:17 Roman
4:24:18 literature
4:24:21 dozens
4:24:21 of
4:24:23 scientific
4:24:23 papers
4:24:24 and I
4:24:25 always
4:24:25 remember
4:24:25 him
4:24:26 working
4:24:27 he
4:24:27 would
4:24:28 be
4:24:28 busy
4:24:30 typing
4:24:31 his
4:24:31 books
4:24:32 and articles
4:24:33 and an
4:24:33 old
4:24:33 school
4:24:34 typewriter
4:24:35 back
4:24:35 in the
4:24:36 late
4:24:36 80s
4:24:36 early
4:24:37 90s
4:24:40 he
4:24:40 was
4:24:40 relentless
4:24:42 the
4:24:43 example
4:24:43 he
4:24:43 said
4:24:44 to
4:24:44 myself
4:24:44 and
4:24:45 my
4:24:45 brother
4:24:45 was
4:24:46 priceless
4:24:48 some
4:24:48 people
4:24:48 make
4:24:49 this
4:24:50 mistake
4:24:51 of
4:24:51 thinking
4:24:52 that
4:24:54 you
4:24:54 can
4:24:54 instill
4:24:55 the
4:24:55 right
4:24:56 principles
4:24:59 in the
4:24:59 future
4:25:00 generation
4:25:00 or
4:25:00 into
4:25:00 your
4:25:00 kids
4:25:01 by
4:25:01 saying
4:25:02 things
4:25:02 to
4:25:02 them
4:25:03 but
4:25:03 kids
4:25:03 are
4:25:04 smart
4:25:05 they
4:25:05 discount
4:25:06 words
4:25:07 they
4:25:07 look
4:25:07 at
4:25:07 the
4:25:08 actions
4:25:10 so
4:25:10 observing
4:25:10 our
4:25:11 father
4:25:13 was
4:25:14 a
4:25:14 big
4:25:15 lesson
4:25:15 by
4:25:15 itself
4:25:17 it
4:25:18 wasn’t
4:25:18 necessary
4:25:18 for
4:25:18 him
4:25:19 to
4:25:19 say
4:25:19 anything
4:25:19 to
4:25:20 us
4:25:21 and
4:25:21 then
4:25:21 at
4:25:21 the
4:25:21 same
4:25:22 time
4:25:22 he
4:25:22 was
4:25:23 incredibly
4:25:24 patient
4:25:25 emotionally
4:25:26 resilient
4:25:28 and
4:25:28 you know
4:25:28 my
4:25:29 mom
4:25:30 great
4:25:31 woman
4:25:31 incredibly
4:25:32 smart
4:25:33 highly
4:25:34 educated
4:25:35 but
4:25:37 she
4:25:37 would
4:25:37 sometimes
4:25:39 try to
4:25:40 test
4:25:41 the
4:25:41 patience
4:25:41 of
4:25:41 my
4:25:42 father
4:25:43 and
4:25:43 it’s
4:25:46 dread
4:25:46 rooted
4:25:47 in
4:25:47 our
4:25:48 biology
4:25:49 there’s
4:25:49 an
4:25:50 evolutionary
4:25:50 explanation
4:25:51 for
4:25:51 that
4:25:52 women
4:25:53 sometimes
4:25:53 tend
4:25:54 to
4:25:54 do
4:25:54 that
4:25:55 and
4:25:56 he
4:25:56 demonstrated
4:25:57 incredible
4:25:58 patience
4:25:59 all the
4:25:59 time
4:26:00 he
4:26:01 told
4:26:01 me
4:26:02 recently
4:26:03 you
4:26:04 shouldn’t
4:26:05 give
4:26:06 the
4:26:06 wrong
4:26:07 example
4:26:08 to
4:26:08 the
4:26:08 people
4:26:08 around
4:26:09 you
4:26:09 and
4:26:09 in
4:26:10 particular
4:26:10 to
4:26:10 your
4:26:10 kids
4:26:11 because
4:26:12 you
4:26:12 can
4:26:13 do
4:26:13 the
4:26:13 right
4:26:14 thing
4:26:14 nine
4:26:15 times
4:26:15 out
4:26:15 of
4:26:15 ten
4:26:16 but
4:26:16 you
4:26:16 make
4:26:16 a
4:26:17 mistake
4:26:17 once
4:26:18 and
4:26:18 they
4:26:19 will
4:26:19 instantly
4:26:20 copy it
4:26:20 if
4:26:20 if
4:26:20 you’re
4:26:21 telling
4:26:21 your
4:26:21 kids
4:26:21 not
4:26:22 to
4:26:22 use
4:26:22 a
4:26:22 smartphone
4:26:23 but
4:26:23 you’re
4:26:23 using
4:26:23 a
4:26:24 smartphone
4:26:24 all
4:26:24 the
4:26:24 time
4:26:25 yourself
4:26:27 and
4:26:27 coming up
4:26:27 with
4:26:28 all kinds
4:26:28 of
4:26:29 sophisticated
4:26:30 brilliant
4:26:30 explanations
4:26:31 why
4:26:31 they
4:26:31 shouldn’t
4:26:32 be
4:26:32 using
4:26:32 a
4:26:32 smartphone
4:26:34 it
4:26:34 won’t
4:26:34 land
4:26:36 it’s
4:26:36 bound
4:26:37 to
4:26:37 fail
4:26:39 so
4:26:39 you
4:26:39 lead
4:26:39 by
4:26:40 example
4:26:40 and
4:26:41 there
4:26:41 are
4:26:41 other
4:26:42 numerous
4:26:43 lessons
4:26:44 staying
4:26:45 positive
4:26:46 looking at
4:26:46 the bright
4:26:47 side
4:26:48 never
4:26:49 despair
4:26:50 be
4:26:50 honest
4:26:51 and
4:26:51 you
4:26:51 know
4:26:52 he
4:26:52 told
4:26:52 me
4:26:53 last
4:26:53 time
4:26:53 I
4:26:54 spoke
4:26:54 to
4:26:54 him
4:26:55 that
4:26:55 AI
4:26:57 can
4:26:57 have
4:26:58 consciousness
4:26:59 can be
4:27:00 creative
4:27:00 but
4:27:01 it
4:27:01 cannot
4:27:02 have
4:27:03 conscience
4:27:04 in a way
4:27:04 cannot
4:27:05 be
4:27:06 moral
4:27:07 it
4:27:08 cannot
4:27:08 have
4:27:10 deeply
4:27:10 rooted
4:27:11 principles
4:27:12 cannot
4:27:12 have
4:27:13 integrity
4:27:14 in the
4:27:15 meaning
4:27:15 that
4:27:16 we
4:27:16 understand
4:27:16 it
4:27:17 as
4:27:17 human
4:27:18 beings
4:27:19 I
4:27:19 love
4:27:20 the
4:27:20 fact
4:27:20 that
4:27:20 you’re
4:27:21 talking
4:27:21 to
4:27:21 your
4:27:21 eight
4:27:21 year
4:27:22 old
4:27:22 father
4:27:23 and
4:27:23 you’re
4:27:24 talking
4:27:24 about
4:27:26 AGI
4:27:28 and
4:27:28 the
4:27:28 difference
4:27:29 between
4:27:30 human
4:27:31 the
4:27:31 human
4:27:32 spirit
4:27:32 human
4:27:33 nature
4:27:33 and
4:27:34 what
4:27:34 AI
4:27:35 is
4:27:35 able
4:27:35 to
4:27:36 achieve
4:27:36 and
4:27:37 conscience
4:27:37 is
4:27:38 the
4:27:38 thing
4:27:38 that
4:27:40 humans
4:27:41 have
4:27:42 the
4:27:43 ability
4:27:43 to
4:27:43 know
4:27:44 the
4:27:44 right
4:27:44 from
4:27:44 wrong
4:27:45 this
4:27:45 is
4:27:46 the
4:27:46 lesson
4:27:46 that
4:27:46 he
4:27:46 gave
4:27:47 me
4:27:51 one
4:27:51 of
4:27:51 my
4:27:51 goals
4:27:51 in
4:27:52 life
4:27:52 is
4:27:52 never
4:27:52 to
4:27:53 support
4:27:53 him
4:27:56 another
4:27:56 thing
4:27:56 we’ve
4:27:56 talked
4:27:57 about
4:27:59 which
4:27:59 I
4:27:59 think
4:27:59 is a
4:28:00 fascinating
4:28:01 topic
4:28:03 is the
4:28:03 power of
4:28:04 the
4:28:04 mind
4:28:05 power
4:28:05 of
4:28:05 thought
4:28:07 do
4:28:07 you
4:28:07 believe
4:28:07 you
4:28:08 can
4:28:08 affect
4:28:08 your
4:28:09 life
4:28:10 and
4:28:10 reality
4:28:10 by
4:28:11 thinking
4:28:11 about
4:28:11 it
4:28:12 by
4:28:13 manifesting
4:28:14 it
4:28:14 into
4:28:15 being
4:28:15 what
4:28:15 do
4:28:16 you
4:28:16 think
4:28:18 there
4:28:18 are
4:28:18 many
4:28:19 explanations
4:28:19 why
4:28:19 it
4:28:19 works
4:28:21 one
4:28:21 thing
4:28:22 most
4:28:22 people
4:28:22 agree
4:28:23 on
4:28:23 is
4:28:24 that
4:28:24 setting
4:28:25 goals
4:28:26 and
4:28:26 staying
4:28:26 positive
4:28:27 and
4:28:27 confident
4:28:29 does
4:28:29 allow
4:28:29 you
4:28:30 to
4:28:30 achieve
4:28:32 the
4:28:32 things
4:28:32 you
4:28:32 want
4:28:32 to
4:28:33 achieve
4:28:33 it
4:28:35 it
4:28:36 it’s
4:28:36 very
4:28:36 hard
4:28:36 to
4:28:37 believe
4:28:37 though
4:28:37 that
4:28:37 you
4:28:38 can
4:28:39 just
4:28:39 manifest
4:28:40 things
4:28:40 into
4:28:41 being
4:28:41 without
4:28:43 applying
4:28:45 effort
4:28:46 in the
4:28:46 direction
4:28:47 that
4:28:47 seems
4:28:48 to be
4:28:48 logical
4:28:53 maybe
4:28:53 some
4:28:53 people
4:28:54 exist
4:28:55 that
4:28:55 can
4:28:56 just
4:28:56 sit
4:28:56 on
4:28:56 the
4:28:56 bank
4:28:56 of
4:28:57 a
4:28:57 river
4:28:58 and
4:28:59 materialize
4:29:00 things
4:29:00 by
4:29:01 the
4:29:01 power
4:29:01 of
4:29:01 their
4:29:02 thought
4:29:03 but
4:29:05 I’m
4:29:05 not
4:29:05 sure
4:29:05 I’m
4:29:05 one
4:29:06 of
4:29:06 these
4:29:06 people
4:29:08 I
4:29:09 always
4:29:09 found
4:29:09 it
4:29:10 more
4:29:10 easy
4:29:11 to
4:29:11 believe
4:29:11 that
4:29:11 if
4:29:12 you
4:29:12 couple
4:29:13 this
4:29:14 optimism
4:29:15 and
4:29:16 faith
4:29:17 with
4:29:19 logical
4:29:20 action
4:29:22 then
4:29:22 it
4:29:23 is
4:29:23 bound
4:29:25 to
4:29:25 be
4:29:25 successful
4:29:27 prolonged
4:29:28 effort
4:29:28 hard
4:29:29 work
4:29:31 coupled
4:29:31 with
4:29:33 positive
4:29:33 focus
4:29:33 thinking
4:29:34 about
4:29:34 the
4:29:34 thing
4:29:35 oh
4:29:35 yes
4:29:35 over
4:29:36 many
4:29:36 many
4:29:36 many
4:29:37 days
4:29:38 it
4:29:38 is
4:29:38 possible
4:29:39 to
4:29:40 imagine
4:29:40 our
4:29:41 world
4:29:41 as a
4:29:42 high
4:29:42 dimensional
4:29:43 universe
4:29:44 where
4:29:45 humans
4:29:45 have
4:29:45 the
4:29:45 ability
4:29:46 to
4:29:47 navigate
4:29:49 through
4:29:49 it
4:29:49 with
4:29:50 the
4:29:50 power
4:29:51 of
4:29:52 belief
4:29:54 which
4:29:54 is
4:29:55 coupled
4:29:56 with
4:29:58 positive
4:29:59 emotion
4:30:01 and
4:30:02 logical
4:30:02 thinking
4:30:04 but
4:30:05 we are
4:30:05 getting
4:30:05 into
4:30:05 an
4:30:06 esoteric
4:30:06 realm
4:30:08 we don’t
4:30:08 have any
4:30:09 proof of
4:30:09 that
4:30:11 but we
4:30:12 also know
4:30:12 that
4:30:13 we probably
4:30:14 at this
4:30:15 point
4:30:15 haven’t
4:30:16 discovered
4:30:16 even
4:30:17 1%
4:30:20 about
4:30:20 this
4:30:20 universe
4:30:22 I agree
4:30:23 with you
4:30:23 fully
4:30:23 and I
4:30:24 like
4:30:24 what
4:30:24 you
4:30:25 said
4:30:26 in the
4:30:26 way
4:30:26 you
4:30:26 were
4:30:28 thinking
4:30:28 about
4:30:28 it
4:30:29 you’ve
4:30:29 told me
4:30:30 before
4:30:31 that maybe
4:30:31 there’s a
4:30:32 way
4:30:32 that with
4:30:32 effort
4:30:34 and with
4:30:34 a
4:30:35 focused
4:30:35 mind
4:30:35 you can
4:30:36 shape
4:30:37 you can
4:30:37 morph
4:30:38 the sort
4:30:38 of
4:30:38 landscape
4:30:39 of
4:30:39 probabilities
4:30:41 around
4:30:41 you
4:30:42 and it’s
4:30:42 a nice
4:30:43 way to
4:30:43 visualize
4:30:44 it
4:30:44 that somehow
4:30:45 our
4:30:45 effort
4:30:47 and our
4:30:48 focus
4:30:49 changes
4:30:52 the
4:30:53 things
4:30:53 that are
4:30:54 likely
4:30:54 and less
4:30:55 likely
4:30:56 and by
4:30:56 focusing
4:30:57 on it
4:30:57 we make
4:30:58 the thing
4:30:58 more and
4:30:58 more likely
4:30:59 at least
4:31:00 as an
4:31:00 estimate
4:31:01 as a
4:31:01 kind of
4:31:01 field
4:31:02 that we
4:31:03 through our
4:31:03 thoughts
4:31:04 and our
4:31:04 actions
4:31:06 change that
4:31:06 field
4:31:08 and then
4:31:08 there’s
4:31:09 8 billion
4:31:10 of us
4:31:10 doing so
4:31:12 and together
4:31:12 there’s this
4:31:13 collective
4:31:13 intelligence
4:31:14 that creates
4:31:14 the world
4:31:14 we see
4:31:15 around us
4:31:16 like the
4:31:18 like the
4:31:18 mice
4:31:20 and like
4:31:20 you said
4:31:21 us
4:31:22 as a
4:31:22 humanity
4:31:23 together
4:31:24 are perfect
4:31:25 I like
4:31:26 that you
4:31:26 said that
4:31:28 I admire
4:31:28 your belief
4:31:29 in the
4:31:30 fact that
4:31:31 we get
4:31:32 to experience
4:31:34 this
4:31:35 together
4:31:36 because it’s
4:31:36 not obvious
4:31:38 maybe each
4:31:39 of us
4:31:39 experiences
4:31:41 his own
4:31:41 or her
4:31:41 own
4:31:42 universe
4:31:43 and maybe
4:31:44 every second
4:31:44 the universe
4:31:45 splits into
4:31:46 a billion
4:31:46 of different
4:31:47 universes
4:31:48 and everything
4:31:49 that can
4:31:49 happen
4:31:49 happens
4:31:51 and there
4:31:51 is a
4:31:52 universe
4:31:52 where
4:31:55 say I
4:31:56 died in
4:31:57 2013
4:31:58 maybe every
4:31:58 time I
4:31:59 die I
4:32:00 actually get
4:32:00 to
4:32:01 shift
4:32:02 to a
4:32:03 parallel
4:32:03 universe
4:32:04 when I
4:32:04 don’t die
4:32:05 and then it
4:32:06 keeps going
4:32:07 and at
4:32:07 certain
4:32:08 points
4:32:10 we achieve
4:32:10 this
4:32:10 quantum
4:32:11 immortality
4:32:12 when we
4:32:13 are
4:32:13 1000
4:32:14 years
4:32:14 old
4:32:16 but
4:32:17 a lot
4:32:17 of
4:32:17 people
4:32:18 from
4:32:20 other
4:32:20 versions
4:32:20 of
4:32:21 reality
4:32:23 think
4:32:24 we are
4:32:25 long
4:32:25 gone
4:32:26 yeah
4:32:27 this is
4:32:27 something
4:32:27 you
4:32:28 explained
4:32:28 to me
4:32:28 the idea
4:32:29 of
4:32:29 quantum
4:32:30 immortality
4:32:30 which is a
4:32:30 thought
4:32:30 experiment
4:32:31 which I
4:32:31 find
4:32:32 deeply
4:32:32 fascinating
4:32:33 people
4:32:33 should
4:32:33 look
4:32:33 into
4:32:33 it
4:32:34 which
4:32:34 is
4:32:35 very
4:32:36 crisp
4:32:36 clean
4:32:37 consequence
4:32:38 of the
4:32:38 many
4:32:39 worlds
4:32:39 interpretation
4:32:40 of
4:32:40 quantum
4:32:40 mechanics
4:32:41 that we
4:32:42 as conscious
4:32:43 beings
4:32:43 can’t
4:32:44 experience
4:32:44 our
4:32:45 death
4:32:45 you can
4:32:45 only
4:32:49 as
4:32:49 we
4:32:49 branch
4:32:50 into
4:32:50 these
4:32:51 many
4:32:52 worlds
4:32:52 only the
4:32:53 living
4:32:54 consciousnesses
4:32:55 get to
4:32:55 experience
4:32:55 it
4:32:56 so
4:32:56 in some
4:32:57 sense
4:32:57 yeah
4:32:58 there’s
4:32:59 many
4:32:59 universes
4:33:01 if we
4:33:01 were to
4:33:01 seriously
4:33:02 take the
4:33:02 many
4:33:02 worlds
4:33:03 interpretation
4:33:03 of
4:33:03 quantum
4:33:04 mechanics
4:33:04 there’s
4:33:04 many
4:33:05 universes
4:33:05 where you
4:33:05 died
4:33:06 many
4:33:07 times
4:33:07 especially
4:33:08 you
4:33:08 and
4:33:09 I’m
4:33:09 glad
4:33:09 we’re
4:33:10 in a
4:33:10 universe
4:33:10 where we
4:33:11 get to
4:33:12 share the
4:33:12 table
4:33:14 with this
4:33:14 impressive
4:33:14 bone
4:33:15 a little
4:33:15 humor
4:33:16 and a lot
4:33:16 of
4:33:17 serious
4:33:19 topics
4:33:19 covered
4:33:19 today
4:33:20 once again
4:33:21 I can’t
4:33:22 say enough
4:33:23 a giant
4:33:23 thank you
4:33:24 from me
4:33:25 and a giant
4:33:25 thank you
4:33:26 from hundreds
4:33:26 of millions
4:33:27 of people
4:33:27 that follow
4:33:28 your work
4:33:29 for
4:33:30 you
4:33:31 fighting
4:33:32 for the
4:33:33 freedom of
4:33:33 all of us
4:33:34 to speak
4:33:35 and creating
4:33:36 a platform
4:33:37 where we
4:33:37 can do
4:33:37 so
4:33:38 and thank
4:33:39 you so
4:33:39 much for
4:33:39 talking
4:33:39 today
4:33:40 brother
4:33:40 it’s been
4:33:41 an honor
4:33:41 getting to
4:33:42 know you
4:33:43 and to
4:33:43 be able to
4:33:44 call you
4:33:44 a friend
4:33:45 thank you
4:33:46 for saying
4:33:46 that
4:33:48 I’m also
4:33:48 incredibly
4:33:49 grateful
4:33:51 to you
4:33:52 and to
4:33:52 the fact
4:33:52 that I
4:33:53 happen to
4:33:53 be in
4:33:53 this
4:33:54 version
4:33:54 of
4:33:54 reality
4:33:56 when I
4:33:57 haven’t
4:33:57 died
4:33:57 at least
4:33:58 yet
4:33:59 and
4:34:00 hopefully
4:34:02 we’ll get
4:34:02 to spend
4:34:03 more fun
4:34:03 moments
4:34:04 in the
4:34:04 years to
4:34:04 come
4:34:05 together
4:34:06 thank you
4:34:06 brother
4:34:08 thank you for
4:34:08 listening to
4:34:09 this conversation
4:34:09 with paul
4:34:10 duroff
4:34:11 to support
4:34:11 this podcast
4:34:12 please check
4:34:12 out our
4:34:12 sponsors
4:34:13 in the
4:34:13 description
4:34:14 and now
4:34:15 let me try
4:34:16 to articulate
4:34:16 some things
4:34:16 I’ve been
4:34:17 thinking
4:34:17 about
4:34:18 if you
4:34:18 would like
4:34:18 to submit
4:34:19 questions
4:34:20 or topics
4:34:21 like this
4:34:21 for me
4:34:22 to talk
4:34:22 about
4:34:22 in the
4:34:22 future
4:34:23 go to
4:34:24 lexfridman.com
4:34:25 slash
4:34:25 ama
4:34:27 I’d like
4:34:28 to use
4:34:28 this
4:34:28 opportunity
4:34:29 to talk
4:34:29 about
4:34:30 Franz Kafka
4:34:31 one of my
4:34:31 favorite
4:34:32 writers
4:34:33 the reason
4:34:33 he has
4:34:34 been on
4:34:34 my mind
4:34:35 is that
4:34:35 his work
4:34:36 the trial
4:34:37 and the
4:34:37 case of
4:34:37 paul
4:34:38 duroff
4:34:38 in france
4:34:39 has
4:34:40 let’s
4:34:40 say
4:34:41 eerie
4:34:41 parallels
4:34:42 both
4:34:43 metaphorically
4:34:43 and
4:34:44 literally
4:34:45 of course
4:34:46 the trial
4:34:46 is a work
4:34:46 of fiction
4:34:47 but I
4:34:47 think
4:34:48 it is
4:34:48 often
4:34:48 useful
4:34:49 to go
4:34:49 to the
4:34:50 surreal
4:34:50 world
4:34:50 of
4:34:51 literature
4:34:51 even
4:34:52 of the
4:34:53 over-the-top
4:34:53 dystopian
4:34:54 variety
4:34:54 like
4:34:55 1984
4:34:56 Animal Farm
4:34:58 Brave New World
4:34:59 The Trial
4:34:59 The Castle
4:35:00 Metamorphosis
4:35:01 even The Plague
4:35:03 by Albert Camus
4:35:04 all to better
4:35:04 understand
4:35:05 our real
4:35:06 world
4:35:06 and the
4:35:07 destructive
4:35:07 paths
4:35:09 we have
4:35:09 the potential
4:35:10 to go down
4:35:10 together
4:35:12 which also
4:35:12 hopefully
4:35:13 helps us
4:35:14 understand
4:35:14 how to
4:35:15 avoid
4:35:16 doing so
4:35:17 so
4:35:17 let me
4:35:18 zoom out
4:35:18 and speak
4:35:18 about
4:35:19 Franz Kafka
4:35:20 who was
4:35:20 he
4:35:21 he was
4:35:22 an insurance
4:35:23 clerk
4:35:23 who wrote
4:35:24 at night
4:35:25 he died
4:35:25 young
4:35:26 and almost
4:35:26 completely
4:35:27 unknown
4:35:28 and he
4:35:28 asked
4:35:29 for his
4:35:29 manuscripts
4:35:30 to be
4:35:30 burned
4:35:31 luckily
4:35:32 for us
4:35:33 his friend
4:35:34 Max Broad
4:35:34 refused
4:35:35 to do so
4:35:36 giving us
4:35:37 the work
4:35:37 of what
4:35:38 I consider
4:35:38 to be
4:35:39 one of
4:35:40 20th century’s
4:35:40 greatest writers
4:35:42 in his
4:35:42 work
4:35:43 Kafka
4:35:43 wrote
4:35:44 about
4:35:44 the
4:35:44 cold
4:35:45 machine
4:35:45 like
4:35:45 reduction
4:35:46 of
4:35:46 humans
4:35:46 to
4:35:46 case
4:35:47 files
4:35:47 through
4:35:48 the
4:35:48 labyrinth
4:35:49 of institutional
4:35:49 power
4:35:50 he wrote
4:35:51 about
4:35:52 an individual’s
4:35:53 feeling of guilt
4:35:55 even when a crime
4:35:55 has not been
4:35:56 committed
4:35:57 or
4:35:57 more
4:35:58 generally
4:35:58 he wrote
4:35:58 about
4:35:59 the
4:35:59 feeling
4:35:59 of
4:35:59 anxiety
4:36:00 that
4:36:00 is
4:36:00 part
4:36:00 of
4:36:00 the
4:36:01 human
4:36:01 condition
4:36:02 in
4:36:02 our
4:36:02 modern
4:36:03 chaotic
4:36:03 world
4:36:04 his
4:36:04 writing
4:36:05 style
4:36:05 was
4:36:05 to
4:36:06 use
4:36:06 short
4:36:07 declarative
4:36:07 sentences
4:36:08 to
4:36:08 describe
4:36:08 the
4:36:09 surreal
4:36:09 and
4:36:09 the
4:36:10 absurd
4:36:10 and
4:36:10 in
4:36:10 so
4:36:11 doing
4:36:12 effectively
4:36:12 I
4:36:12 think
4:36:13 convey
4:36:13 the
4:36:14 feeling
4:36:14 of
4:36:14 an
4:36:15 experience
4:36:15 versus
4:36:15 simply
4:36:16 describing
4:36:17 the
4:36:17 experience
4:36:19 for
4:36:19 example
4:36:20 famously
4:36:20 his
4:36:21 work
4:36:21 The
4:36:22 Metamorphosis
4:36:22 opens
4:36:22 with the
4:36:23 following
4:36:23 lines
4:36:25 As
4:36:25 Gregor
4:36:26 Samza
4:36:26 awoke
4:36:27 one
4:36:27 morning
4:36:27 from
4:36:27 uneasy
4:36:28 dreams
4:36:29 he
4:36:29 found
4:36:29 himself
4:36:30 transformed
4:36:30 in his
4:36:31 bed
4:36:31 into
4:36:31 a
4:36:32 gigantic
4:36:33 insect
4:36:34 He
4:36:34 was
4:36:34 lying
4:36:35 in
4:36:35 his
4:36:35 hard
4:36:35 armor
4:36:36 plated
4:36:36 back
4:36:37 and
4:36:37 when
4:36:37 he
4:36:38 lifted
4:36:38 his
4:36:38 head
4:36:38 a
4:36:38 little
4:36:39 he
4:36:39 could
4:36:39 see
4:36:39 his
4:36:40 dome
4:36:40 like
4:36:40 brown
4:36:41 belly
4:36:41 divided
4:36:42 into
4:36:42 stiff
4:36:43 arched
4:36:44 segments
4:36:44 on
4:36:45 top
4:36:45 of
4:36:45 which
4:36:46 the
4:36:46 bed
4:36:46 quilt
4:36:47 could
4:36:47 hardly
4:36:47 keep
4:36:47 in
4:36:48 position
4:36:48 and
4:36:48 was
4:36:49 about
4:36:49 to
4:36:49 slide
4:36:50 off
4:36:50 completely
4:36:51 His
4:36:52 numerous
4:36:52 legs
4:36:53 which
4:36:53 were
4:36:54 pitifully
4:36:54 thin
4:36:55 compared
4:36:55 to
4:36:55 the
4:36:55 rest
4:36:55 of
4:36:56 his
4:36:56 bulk
4:36:57 waved
4:36:58 helplessly
4:36:58 before
4:36:58 his
4:36:59 eyes
4:37:00 Kafka
4:37:01 I think
4:37:02 effectively
4:37:03 uses
4:37:03 this
4:37:03 image
4:37:04 of
4:37:04 being
4:37:04 transformed
4:37:04 into
4:37:04 a
4:37:05 giant
4:37:05 bug
4:37:06 stuck
4:37:06 on
4:37:06 his
4:37:06 back
4:37:07 to
4:37:07 convey
4:37:08 a
4:37:08 feeling
4:37:08 of
4:37:09 helplessness
4:37:09 and
4:37:11 uselessness
4:37:11 to
4:37:11 his
4:37:12 family
4:37:12 to
4:37:12 his
4:37:13 job
4:37:14 to
4:37:14 society
4:37:15 love
4:37:15 the
4:37:15 feeling
4:37:16 of
4:37:16 being
4:37:16 a
4:37:16 burden
4:37:16 to
4:37:17 everyone
4:37:18 dehumanized
4:37:19 alienated
4:37:20 and
4:37:20 abandoned
4:37:21 the
4:37:22 feeling
4:37:22 of
4:37:22 being
4:37:23 only
4:37:23 temporarily
4:37:24 valued
4:37:24 as
4:37:24 long
4:37:25 as
4:37:25 he
4:37:25 served
4:37:26 some
4:37:26 function
4:37:27 for
4:37:27 his
4:37:27 job
4:37:28 or
4:37:28 for
4:37:29 his
4:37:29 family
4:37:30 and
4:37:30 quickly
4:37:30 discarded
4:37:31 otherwise
4:37:33 I will
4:37:33 probably
4:37:34 talk about
4:37:34 this
4:37:34 work
4:37:35 in more
4:37:35 depth
4:37:35 at
4:37:35 another
4:37:36 time
4:37:37 because
4:37:37 it
4:37:37 is
4:37:37 so
4:37:38 haunting
4:37:38 and
4:37:39 I
4:37:39 think
4:37:39 it
4:37:39 is
4:37:40 such
4:37:40 a
4:37:40 profound
4:37:40 description
4:37:41 of
4:37:42 the
4:37:42 burden
4:37:42 of
4:37:43 existence
4:37:43 in
4:37:43 modern
4:37:44 society
4:37:44 for
4:37:44 many
4:37:45 people
4:37:46 but
4:37:46 here
4:37:47 let me
4:37:47 talk
4:37:47 about
4:37:48 another
4:37:48 of
4:37:48 his
4:37:48 work
4:37:49 the
4:37:49 trial
4:37:51 in
4:37:51 this
4:37:51 novel
4:37:51 the
4:37:52 main
4:37:52 character
4:37:52 Joseph
4:37:53 K
4:37:53 is
4:37:54 a
4:37:54 successful
4:37:54 bank
4:37:55 officer
4:37:56 and
4:37:56 he’s
4:37:56 arrested
4:37:57 on his
4:37:57 birthday
4:37:58 for
4:37:59 an
4:37:59 unspecified
4:38:00 crime
4:38:00 by
4:38:01 a
4:38:01 kind
4:38:02 of
4:38:02 amorphous
4:38:03 court
4:38:04 whose
4:38:04 authority
4:38:04 is
4:38:04 everywhere
4:38:05 and
4:38:05 nowhere
4:38:06 he
4:38:07 navigates
4:38:07 a
4:38:07 labyrinth
4:38:08 like
4:38:08 legal
4:38:08 system
4:38:09 where
4:38:09 everyone
4:38:09 knows
4:38:10 about
4:38:10 his
4:38:10 case
4:38:11 but
4:38:11 no
4:38:11 one
4:38:11 can
4:38:11 really
4:38:12 explain
4:38:12 it
4:38:13 the
4:38:13 so-called
4:38:14 trial
4:38:15 never
4:38:15 actually
4:38:16 occurs
4:38:16 in
4:38:16 any
4:38:17 conventional
4:38:17 sense
4:38:18 instead
4:38:19 Joseph K
4:38:19 K
4:38:19 his
4:38:19 entire
4:38:20 life
4:38:20 becomes
4:38:20 the
4:38:21 proceedings
4:38:21 leading
4:38:22 up
4:38:22 to
4:38:22 the
4:38:22 trial
4:38:23 in
4:38:23 a
4:38:24 sense
4:38:24 the
4:38:25 trial
4:38:25 is
4:38:25 the
4:38:26 state
4:38:26 of
4:38:26 being
4:38:26 accused
4:38:27 itself
4:38:27 a
4:38:28 permanent
4:38:28 condition
4:38:29 rather
4:38:29 than
4:38:30 a
4:38:30 singular
4:38:30 event
4:38:32 Kafka’s
4:38:33 genius
4:38:33 in
4:38:33 this
4:38:33 work
4:38:34 was
4:38:34 to
4:38:34 show
4:38:35 that
4:38:35 modern
4:38:36 institutions
4:38:36 don’t
4:38:37 need
4:38:37 to
4:38:37 hold
4:38:37 trials
4:38:38 they
4:38:39 just
4:38:39 need to
4:38:39 hold
4:38:40 you
4:38:40 in
4:38:40 the
4:38:40 permanent
4:38:41 looming
4:38:41 possibility
4:38:42 of
4:38:42 one
4:38:43 public
4:38:44 attention
4:38:44 to
4:38:44 this
4:38:44 case
4:38:45 both
4:38:45 positive
4:38:45 and
4:38:45 negative
4:38:46 gives
4:38:46 Joseph K
4:38:47 a
4:38:47 feeling
4:38:47 of
4:38:47 constantly
4:38:48 being
4:38:48 judged
4:38:48 by
4:38:49 people
4:38:49 around
4:38:49 him
4:38:50 this
4:38:51 wears
4:38:51 at
4:38:51 his
4:38:52 mind
4:38:53 and
4:38:53 his
4:38:54 psychological
4:38:54 well-being
4:38:55 begins
4:38:55 to
4:38:56 deteriorate
4:38:57 in
4:38:57 in
4:38:57 in
4:38:57 a
4:38:57 sense
4:38:58 the
4:38:58 trial
4:38:58 doesn’t
4:38:58 need
4:38:58 to
4:38:59 convict
4:38:59 him
4:39:00 the
4:39:00 internal
4:39:01 psychological
4:39:01 turmoil
4:39:02 and the
4:39:02 external
4:39:03 social
4:39:03 scrutiny
4:39:04 performs
4:39:04 the
4:39:04 conviction
4:39:05 and the
4:39:06 eventual
4:39:06 execution
4:39:08 when
4:39:08 exactly
4:39:08 one
4:39:09 year
4:39:09 after
4:39:09 his
4:39:10 arrest
4:39:10 Joseph K
4:39:11 is
4:39:11 visited
4:39:11 by
4:39:12 two
4:39:12 men
4:39:13 who
4:39:13 walk
4:39:13 him
4:39:14 courteously
4:39:15 through
4:39:15 the
4:39:15 city
4:39:16 to
4:39:16 an
4:39:16 abandoned
4:39:17 quarry
4:39:18 and
4:39:18 stab
4:39:19 him
4:39:19 in
4:39:19 the
4:39:19 heart
4:39:20 without
4:39:21 Joseph K
4:39:21 resisting
4:39:23 to
4:39:24 me
4:39:24 the
4:39:25 trial
4:39:25 shows
4:39:26 that
4:39:26 tyranny’s
4:39:27 final
4:39:27 victory
4:39:28 isn’t
4:39:28 when
4:39:28 it
4:39:28 kills
4:39:29 you
4:39:29 or
4:39:30 when
4:39:30 you
4:39:30 hold
4:39:30 still
4:39:31 for
4:39:31 the
4:39:31 knife
4:39:32 not
4:39:32 because
4:39:33 you’re
4:39:33 forced
4:39:34 but
4:39:34 because
4:39:34 you’ve
4:39:34 been
4:39:35 exhausted
4:39:36 into
4:39:36 submission
4:39:38 once
4:39:39 again
4:39:39 it is
4:39:39 a
4:39:40 haunting
4:39:40 story
4:39:41 of
4:39:41 the
4:39:42 soullessness
4:39:42 of
4:39:42 bureaucracy
4:39:43 in
4:39:43 its
4:39:44 suffocation
4:39:44 of
4:39:44 the
4:39:45 human
4:39:45 spirit
4:39:46 I
4:39:47 highly
4:39:47 recommend
4:39:47 this
4:39:48 short
4:39:48 book
4:39:49 and
4:39:49 I’ll
4:39:49 probably
4:39:49 talk
4:39:49 about
4:39:50 it
4:39:50 even
4:39:50 more
4:39:50 in
4:39:51 the
4:39:51 future
4:39:52 I
4:39:53 don’t
4:39:53 think
4:39:53 it’s
4:39:53 especially
4:39:54 useful
4:39:54 for
4:39:54 me
4:39:54 to
4:39:55 speak
4:39:55 to
4:39:55 any
4:39:55 parallels
4:39:56 between
4:39:56 the
4:39:57 trial
4:39:57 and
4:39:57 Pavel
4:39:58 Durov’s
4:39:58 case
4:39:59 because
4:39:59 after all
4:40:00 the
4:40:00 trial
4:40:01 is
4:40:01 a
4:40:01 work
4:40:01 of
4:40:01 fiction
4:40:03 but
4:40:03 on a
4:40:03 positive
4:40:04 note
4:40:04 let me
4:40:05 report
4:40:05 that
4:40:05 as far
4:40:05 as
4:40:06 I
4:40:06 saw
4:40:06 Pavel
4:40:06 has
4:40:07 maintained
4:40:08 optimism
4:40:08 and
4:40:08 a
4:40:09 general
4:40:09 positive
4:40:09 outlook
4:40:10 throughout
4:40:10 this
4:40:10 whole
4:40:11 process
4:40:12 what
4:40:12 I
4:40:12 always
4:40:12 fear
4:40:12 in
4:40:13 such
4:40:13 cases
4:40:14 is
4:40:14 that
4:40:14 a
4:40:14 bureaucratic
4:40:15 system
4:40:15 can
4:40:15 wear
4:40:15 people
4:40:16 down
4:40:17 exhaust
4:40:17 them
4:40:17 into
4:40:18 surrendering
4:40:19 I
4:40:19 saw
4:40:20 none of
4:40:20 that
4:40:20 with
4:40:21 Pavel
4:40:21 I
4:40:22 don’t
4:40:22 think
4:40:22 he
4:40:22 knows
4:40:22 how to
4:40:23 give up
4:40:23 or give
4:40:24 in
4:40:24 no matter
4:40:25 how much
4:40:25 pressure
4:40:26 he’s
4:40:26 under
4:40:27 again
4:40:28 this is
4:40:28 truly
4:40:29 inspiring
4:40:29 to me
4:40:31 also
4:40:32 now
4:40:32 that
4:40:32 we’re
4:40:32 talking
4:40:33 about
4:40:33 it
4:40:34 let
4:40:34 me
4:40:34 mention
4:40:34 some
4:40:34 other
4:40:35 of
4:40:35 Kafka’s
4:40:35 work
4:40:36 that
4:40:36 was
4:40:37 moving
4:40:37 to me
4:40:38 the
4:40:39 castle
4:40:39 has
4:40:39 similar
4:40:40 description
4:40:40 as
4:40:40 the
4:40:41 trial
4:40:41 does
4:40:41 of
4:40:42 the
4:40:42 absurd
4:40:43 inaccessibility
4:40:43 of those
4:40:44 in authority
4:40:45 of the
4:40:45 nightmarish
4:40:46 bureaucracy
4:40:47 the
4:40:47 character
4:40:47 in the
4:40:48 castle
4:40:48 is also
4:40:48 named
4:40:48 K
4:40:49 both
4:40:50 bureaucracies
4:40:50 operate
4:40:51 through
4:40:51 exhaustion
4:40:52 endless
4:40:53 deferrals
4:40:54 procedures
4:40:54 waiting
4:40:55 rooms
4:40:56 again
4:40:56 highly
4:40:57 relevant
4:40:57 to
4:40:57 modern
4:40:58 times
4:40:59 I
4:40:59 can
4:40:59 also
4:41:00 highly
4:41:00 recommend
4:41:01 Kafka’s
4:41:01 In the Penal
4:41:02 Colony
4:41:02 and
4:41:03 Hunger
4:41:03 Artist
4:41:04 both
4:41:05 are
4:41:06 too
4:41:06 interesting
4:41:07 and
4:41:07 weird
4:41:08 to
4:41:09 explain
4:41:09 in
4:41:09 depth
4:41:10 here
4:41:11 but
4:41:11 let
4:41:11 me
4:41:11 say
4:41:11 The
4:41:12 Hunger
4:41:12 Artist
4:41:12 is a
4:41:13 story
4:41:13 that
4:41:13 I
4:41:13 think
4:41:13 is
4:41:13 relevant
4:41:14 to
4:41:14 our
4:41:14 modern
4:41:14 day
4:41:15 attention
4:41:15 economy
4:41:16 where
4:41:16 so
4:41:16 many
4:41:16 people
4:41:17 want
4:41:17 to
4:41:17 be
4:41:17 famous
4:41:18 it
4:41:19 tells
4:41:19 the
4:41:19 story
4:41:19 of
4:41:20 let’s
4:41:20 say
4:41:21 professional
4:41:21 faster
4:41:22 who
4:41:23 performs
4:41:23 starvation
4:41:24 in a
4:41:24 cage
4:41:25 as
4:41:25 entertainment
4:41:26 and
4:41:27 he
4:41:27 slowly
4:41:27 loses
4:41:28 his
4:41:28 audience
4:41:28 to
4:41:29 newer
4:41:29 spectacles
4:41:30 so
4:41:30 much
4:41:30 so
4:41:31 that
4:41:31 eventually
4:41:32 when he
4:41:32 starves
4:41:32 himself
4:41:33 to
4:41:33 death
4:41:34 nobody
4:41:34 cares
4:41:37 Kafka’s
4:41:37 work
4:41:37 is
4:41:38 heavy
4:41:39 it
4:41:39 serves
4:41:39 as
4:41:39 a
4:41:40 warning
4:41:40 for
4:41:40 the
4:41:41 nightmare
4:41:41 that
4:41:41 civilization
4:41:42 can
4:41:42 become
4:41:43 and
4:41:43 yet
4:41:43 I
4:41:43 think
4:41:44 it
4:41:44 is
4:41:44 also
4:41:44 source
4:41:44 of
4:41:45 optimism
4:41:46 because
4:41:46 when
4:41:46 we
4:41:46 can
4:41:47 recognize
4:41:47 elements
4:41:47 of
4:41:48 our
4:41:48 own
4:41:48 world
4:41:48 in
4:41:49 Kafka
4:41:49 stories
4:41:50 when
4:41:50 we
4:41:50 can
4:41:50 see
4:41:51 elements
4:41:51 of
4:41:51 our
4:41:52 institutions
4:41:52 in
4:41:52 the
4:41:52 trial
4:41:52 or
4:41:53 in
4:41:53 the
4:41:53 castle
4:41:54 when
4:41:54 we
4:41:54 can
4:41:54 see
4:41:55 ourselves
4:41:55 in
4:41:55 Gregor
4:41:56 Samza
4:41:56 we’re
4:41:57 not
4:41:57 just
4:41:57 diagnosing
4:41:58 the
4:41:58 disease
4:41:59 we’re
4:41:59 proving
4:42:00 that
4:42:00 we’re
4:42:00 still
4:42:01 human
4:42:01 and
4:42:02 wise
4:42:02 enough
4:42:02 to
4:42:02 see
4:42:03 it
4:42:03 and
4:42:03 name
4:42:03 it
4:42:05 Kafka
4:42:05 gave
4:42:05 us
4:42:05 the
4:42:06 goal
4:42:07 to
4:42:07 resist
4:42:07 against
4:42:08 such
4:42:08 systems
4:42:08 that
4:42:08 try
4:42:09 to
4:42:09 dehumanize
4:42:09 us
4:42:10 and
4:42:10 to
4:42:11 ensure
4:42:11 that
4:42:11 individual
4:42:12 freedom
4:42:12 and
4:42:13 the
4:42:13 human
4:42:13 spirit
4:42:13 keep
4:42:14 flourishing
4:42:15 I
4:42:15 think
4:42:15 it
4:42:16 will
4:42:17 I
4:42:17 have
4:42:17 faith
4:42:17 in
4:42:17 us
4:42:18 humans
4:42:19 I
4:42:19 love
4:42:19 you
4:42:20 all