AI transcript
0:00:01 This is an iHeart Podcast.
0:00:03 Guaranteed human.
0:00:06 I’m Jen Hatmaker, and on For the Love,
0:00:09 we talk about life in the middle years.
0:00:12 The mess, the meaning, and everything in between.
0:00:15 Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
0:00:34 Hello, and welcome to a special edition
0:00:36 of the Happiness Lab Podcast.
0:00:39 I hope all my listeners who celebrate
0:00:40 had a happy Thanksgiving.
0:00:43 But the day I really look forward to each November
0:00:45 is the Tuesday after Thanksgiving.
0:00:47 Forget Black Friday and Cyber Monday.
0:00:50 My holiday of choice is Giving Tuesday.
0:00:53 Giving Tuesday is the global holiday of charitable giving
0:00:56 that falls right in the midst of our shopping frenzy,
0:00:59 a day that’s not about commerce, but compassion.
0:01:01 Here at the Happiness Lab,
0:01:03 we tend to make a big deal out of Giving Tuesday.
0:01:06 Every year, we share a special episode
0:01:08 that explores why doing good for others
0:01:10 is super good for our own happiness.
0:01:13 We also like to give our listeners a chance to team up
0:01:15 and donate to a charitable cause
0:01:16 that really does good in the world.
0:01:20 For the past few years, that charity has been GiveDirectly,
0:01:22 a nonprofit that takes your cash
0:01:25 and gives it directly to people in extreme poverty
0:01:26 to spend as they see fit.
0:01:29 But this year, we are going even bigger.
0:01:31 We’re bringing together the fans
0:01:33 of some of my favorite podcasts
0:01:35 to raise even more money to fight poverty.
0:01:37 Think 10% Happier with Dan Harris,
0:01:39 On Purpose with Jay Shetty,
0:01:41 Revisionist History, Hidden Brain,
0:01:44 How to Be a Better Human, and dozens more.
0:01:47 The campaign even has its own hashtag,
0:01:48 Pods Fight Poverty.
0:01:50 Pods Fight Poverty is trying to raise
0:01:52 a million dollars this year,
0:01:54 enough money to lift several villages in Rwanda
0:01:55 out of extreme poverty.
0:01:57 If you want to help,
0:02:00 head to givedirectly.org slash happinesslab
0:02:01 to donate what you can.
0:02:04 That’s givedirectly.org slash happinesslab.
0:02:06 If you’re a fan of this show,
0:02:08 you’ve probably already heard about the great things
0:02:10 GiveDirectly can do with a small donation
0:02:11 from a listener like you.
0:02:13 Take the great work we did earlier this year
0:02:16 in collaboration with author and YouTube star,
0:02:17 John Green.
0:02:19 Don and I asked you to partner up with GiveDirectly
0:02:22 to tackle the deadly disease, tuberculosis.
0:02:25 Tuberculosis is an airborne disease.
0:02:26 It usually affects the lungs.
0:02:27 If left untreated,
0:02:30 tuberculosis usually does result in death.
0:02:32 Fortunately, since the 1950s,
0:02:33 we’ve had a cure for tuberculosis.
0:02:35 It’s a bacterial infection,
0:02:37 so the cure is antibiotics given every day
0:02:38 over four to six months.
0:02:40 The problem is that many people with TB
0:02:42 live in parts of the world
0:02:44 where they can’t afford these life-saving drugs.
0:02:46 So John and I asked our listeners to help out.
0:02:50 With lots of small donations of five or ten bucks,
0:02:53 we raised over $100,000 to fight this disease.
0:02:55 That’s incredible, right?
0:02:57 But what’s even more incredible
0:02:58 are the stories we heard
0:02:59 about what this money did
0:03:01 for people living with the disease.
0:03:03 Take one recipient, Margaret,
0:03:06 a 30-year-old TB patient living in Malawi.
0:03:09 Margaret’s TB could have easily been cured
0:03:10 with a simple antibiotic,
0:03:13 but lacking the resources to get treatment,
0:03:15 she eventually got sicker and sicker.
0:03:18 That is, until she received the cash donation
0:03:19 we provided through GiveDirectly.
0:03:21 With that small amount of money,
0:03:24 she was able to pay for the bicycle taxi
0:03:26 she needed to travel to a far-off clinic,
0:03:28 where she was able to finally start
0:03:29 her drug treatment.
0:03:32 I was overjoyed when I received the cash transfer,
0:03:33 Margaret wrote in her thank-you letter
0:03:34 to our listeners.
0:03:37 It felt like my life had been given a second chance.
0:03:38 I have hope again.
0:03:42 Months later, I still think back to Margaret’s story
0:03:43 whenever I’m having a crappy day.
0:03:47 Taking a moment to remember what the five or ten bucks
0:03:48 we collectively shared did,
0:03:49 not just for Margaret,
0:03:51 but for hundreds of other people who were struggling,
0:03:53 that feels amazing.
0:03:56 Probably more amazing than any material gift
0:03:57 I’ll be getting this holiday season.
0:04:01 That good feeling is what the rest of this episode is about.
0:04:04 With the help of some amazing fellow podcasters,
0:04:07 I’m going to explore the enormous psychological power
0:04:08 of giving and receiving.
0:04:10 We’ll see how small acts of kindness,
0:04:12 a spare bit of cash,
0:04:13 or a tiny gesture of care,
0:04:16 can create huge ripples in a person’s life.
0:04:18 I want these stories to serve as a reminder
0:04:21 for something our lying minds often forget,
0:04:23 that a great way to treat ourselves
0:04:25 is to do a small bit of good for somebody else.
0:04:28 To kick off these stories of how doing good
0:04:29 can make us feel good,
0:04:31 let’s look at how receiving an act of kindness
0:04:32 can change us.
0:04:36 And we’ll do that with my first esteemed podcast host guest.
0:04:38 Hi, my name’s Tim Harford,
0:04:41 and I am the host of Cautionary Tales.
0:04:44 Tim is a respected journalist and economist,
0:04:46 but his story of being the recipient of kindness
0:04:49 goes back to a time before he found fame
0:04:52 working for the BBC or hosting Cautionary Tales.
0:04:56 This story took place nearly a quarter of a century ago.
0:05:00 I was visiting a friend in Cameroon,
0:05:03 which is in West Africa,
0:05:05 very poor part of the world.
0:05:08 I was in my mid-twenties and I was on edge
0:05:11 because, you know, Cameroon was at the time
0:05:13 rated as one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
0:05:15 And corrupt or not,
0:05:17 people there were often really desperate.
0:05:21 As a tourist, you feel like you’re a target.
0:05:23 And so I was always on the lookout.
0:05:25 I had just had this sort of suspicion.
0:05:28 I went around my travels around Cameroon.
0:05:30 I had a great time,
0:05:32 was treated wonderfully by everybody I met,
0:05:34 but I never lost that feeling of,
0:05:35 you need to be careful.
0:05:39 Then one day I was standing by the roadside
0:05:43 in a smallish town called Bermenda
0:05:45 with a couple of Western friends.
0:05:47 And I think we were waiting for a bus,
0:05:49 just bought some egg and chips.
0:05:50 We’re having a good time.
0:05:53 And we’ve just walked across country several miles
0:05:56 on this dust road.
0:05:58 And as we’re waiting,
0:06:02 a couple of guys zoom up behind us on a motorbike,
0:06:03 two guys on one motorbike.
0:06:07 I turn around expecting some threat
0:06:09 and they stop right in front of me
0:06:11 and one of them just hands me something.
0:06:13 And I look down at it.
0:06:14 What is this?
0:06:16 And it’s a passport.
0:06:19 In fact, it’s my passport.
0:06:21 I mean, I’m completely bewildered.
0:06:23 Why is this guy giving me my own passport?
0:06:25 And of course, I realized what’s happened
0:06:28 is the passport was in my back pocket
0:06:31 and I’ve sat down by the roadside miles back
0:06:33 and the passport must have fallen out.
0:06:36 And these guys have driven along this road
0:06:37 on the motorbike.
0:06:39 They’ve spotted a British passport
0:06:41 and they’ve gone all the way down the road
0:06:44 looking for the first guy they see
0:06:45 who looks British, which is me.
0:06:47 They’ve even got my photo in my passport.
0:06:50 And the amazing thing was they handed it over
0:06:51 and then they just drove off.
0:06:53 They didn’t sort of stand around
0:06:55 waiting for a tip or reward
0:06:57 or even really a thanks.
0:06:58 I was just, you know, there you go.
0:07:00 Thought you might need this.
0:07:01 And off they went.
0:07:04 And I realized that this suspicion
0:07:06 with which I’ve been viewing everybody
0:07:09 had been so much the opposite
0:07:12 of how these guys had actually behaved.
0:07:14 I mean, I would have been even more grateful
0:07:17 if I had had a moment to realize
0:07:18 I even had a problem
0:07:20 because if I had been stuck in Cameroon
0:07:22 without my passport,
0:07:23 that’s a big problem.
0:07:27 That’s going to cause me a lot of headaches.
0:07:29 But they had solved the problem
0:07:31 before I even realized they’d solved the problem.
0:07:32 They had completely defied
0:07:35 my rather uncharitable expectations
0:07:37 of the people of Cameroon.
0:07:39 And they’d driven off into the sunset
0:07:40 without even waiting for a thank you.
0:07:42 It also seems like they did a lot of work.
0:07:44 Like it sounds like they were like chasing you
0:07:46 as you’re walking around all through the day
0:07:47 to try to find you too.
0:07:49 Probably they came a couple of miles
0:07:50 on the motorbike.
0:07:54 I mean, it was probably 10 or 15 minutes.
0:07:55 Maybe.
0:07:58 I don’t know at all really how much work they did.
0:08:00 But all I know is that they did it
0:08:04 and they could easily have taken that passport
0:08:06 and thought, well, maybe we can turn this
0:08:07 into cash somehow.
0:08:10 Or even just maybe we can try
0:08:12 and get a tip out of this guy.
0:08:13 Or just left it on the ground.
0:08:14 Like, oh, well, you know,
0:08:15 I don’t know this guy.
0:08:15 Yeah.
0:08:20 I mean, I love that story,
0:08:21 but it also points out how like
0:08:22 so many of our societies
0:08:24 are probably much more high trust societies
0:08:25 than we assume.
0:08:26 Like so many people are out there
0:08:28 doing better things than we think.
0:08:29 But I think we have minds
0:08:31 that assume people are kind of mistrusting.
0:08:32 I actually, unfortunately, Tim,
0:08:33 I actually blame the economists
0:08:35 on this a little bit
0:08:37 because I feel like at least…
0:08:37 Oh, fine.
0:08:38 Yeah, sure.
0:08:39 We kick the economists.
0:08:41 I mean, at least the standard economists
0:08:42 have been telling us for a long time
0:08:44 that, you know, we are home economicus.
0:08:45 We are these selfish beings.
0:08:46 We’re going to go out, you know.
0:08:47 So maybe the folks
0:08:48 who returned your passport
0:08:49 would do it if they thought
0:08:51 they could get, you know,
0:08:51 some cash off you
0:08:52 or they, you know,
0:08:53 maybe they get some huge
0:08:54 reputational benefits.
0:08:56 Someone saw them do it
0:08:56 and, you know,
0:08:57 now they kind of like
0:08:59 praising them and so on.
0:09:00 But they wouldn’t just do it
0:09:01 just for the good of doing it.
0:09:02 Well, I mean,
0:09:03 let me push back a little bit.
0:09:04 Let me push back a little bit
0:09:05 and defend my fellow economists.
0:09:07 So the classic economic model,
0:09:09 all it says is that people
0:09:10 have consistent preferences
0:09:12 and it’s kind of convenient
0:09:15 to assume that those preferences
0:09:16 are about consumption.
0:09:17 Like you’re trying to spend
0:09:18 as little money as possible
0:09:20 and get as much stuff
0:09:21 as possible for that money.
0:09:22 But it doesn’t have to be.
0:09:23 You could,
0:09:24 and I’ve seen,
0:09:25 I’ve seen some beautiful
0:09:26 economic models written
0:09:29 where actually my pleasure
0:09:30 is completely dependent
0:09:31 on your pleasure, Laurie.
0:09:32 Like the happier,
0:09:34 I can just see the glow
0:09:34 in your eyes.
0:09:36 I know how happy you are
0:09:38 and the happier you are,
0:09:39 the happier that makes me.
0:09:41 There’s nothing in conventional economics
0:09:42 that makes that impossible.
0:09:44 We tend not to make that assumption
0:09:45 because it’s kind of,
0:09:46 why would you?
0:09:47 And so we simplify
0:09:48 and we talk about the purchase
0:09:49 of goods and services
0:09:50 and we ignore the altruistic bit.
0:09:52 There’s nothing in classical economics
0:09:54 that says people can’t be altruistic.
0:09:55 We, I think,
0:09:56 just haven’t paid enough attention
0:09:58 to that possibility.
0:09:59 And because we don’t pay attention
0:10:00 to the possibility,
0:10:02 we just set it to one side.
0:10:02 Are you surprised
0:10:04 that we don’t think
0:10:05 of kind actions
0:10:06 as as valuable,
0:10:07 as impactful
0:10:08 as they often are?
0:10:10 If I can just be a kind of
0:10:12 amateur evolutionary psychologist
0:10:13 for a moment,
0:10:15 I suppose you might naturally think
0:10:16 that we had evolved
0:10:18 to be a little bit more
0:10:19 suspicious of people,
0:10:20 particularly of strangers,
0:10:21 because, you know,
0:10:22 it’s bad to have someone
0:10:23 take advantage of you.
0:10:24 But actually, of course,
0:10:26 we evolved to be social beings
0:10:27 and maybe we shouldn’t
0:10:28 be so surprised
0:10:30 that people often
0:10:31 behave kindly to each other.
0:10:32 I mean, I am aware
0:10:35 of some research in psychology.
0:10:36 You’ll know this kind of
0:10:38 work better than me, Laurie,
0:10:40 but we often fail to generalize.
0:10:40 Like we think,
0:10:42 oh, if I found a wallet
0:10:45 with like a driving license in it,
0:10:46 then, you know,
0:10:47 I’d contact the owner
0:10:48 or I’d hand it
0:10:49 into the police station.
0:10:51 Yeah, of course,
0:10:51 that’s what I’d do.
0:10:53 But then you ask people,
0:10:54 you ask if other people
0:10:55 would do that.
0:10:56 And we think,
0:10:56 oh, no, other people
0:10:57 wouldn’t do that.
0:10:59 And it’s not like we think
0:11:00 we’re better than other people.
0:11:02 It’s just that
0:11:03 the two questions
0:11:05 don’t even overlap.
0:11:05 It’s almost as though
0:11:06 we’ve got a different circuit
0:11:07 in our brain
0:11:08 reflecting on how we would behave
0:11:11 or reflecting on how
0:11:12 we think somebody else
0:11:12 will behave.
0:11:13 And this is a challenge
0:11:14 for the organization
0:11:15 that we’ve been working
0:11:16 with, GiveDirectly.
0:11:17 Their philosophy is like
0:11:18 we’re just going to give people
0:11:19 money directly
0:11:20 and let them do with it
0:11:21 what they want,
0:11:22 that people in need
0:11:23 have the best ideas
0:11:24 about how to spend their money
0:11:26 to make their situation better.
0:11:27 But a lot of the folks
0:11:28 who are thinking about
0:11:29 giving to give directly
0:11:31 often have the following problem
0:11:32 which is like
0:11:33 are people really going to know
0:11:34 what to do with the money?
0:11:35 Are they going to do something bad?
0:11:37 Are they going to buy something frivolous
0:11:38 or something like that?
0:11:39 It seems like people
0:11:40 just don’t trust people
0:11:42 to make the best decisions.
0:11:43 And I feel like this is part
0:11:45 of the same kind of bias we have.
0:11:46 As undercover economists,
0:11:48 how do you think of this bias
0:11:49 and what are we doing wrong?
0:11:50 Give the economists some credit.
0:11:52 We definitely trust people
0:11:52 to make decisions
0:11:54 in their own interests.
0:11:56 There are cases
0:11:56 where you might go
0:11:58 look, the money is only useful
0:12:00 if it’s coordinated.
0:12:02 So actually what this village
0:12:02 really needs
0:12:04 is a bridge or a well.
0:12:06 But in general
0:12:08 people are going to be good stewards
0:12:09 of their own money
0:12:10 and they’re going to be good judges
0:12:12 of how to spend that money
0:12:13 because there’s so much
0:12:14 they know
0:12:15 about their situation
0:12:17 about their context
0:12:18 and about their own ambitions
0:12:21 that nobody else can know.
0:12:22 And if you give them money
0:12:23 then you’re putting them
0:12:24 in the best possible position
0:12:26 to take advantage
0:12:27 of their own context
0:12:29 and to fulfil their own ambitions.
0:12:31 We’re sort of trained
0:12:32 to believe
0:12:33 that if somebody
0:12:35 really needs a handout
0:12:37 that must be because
0:12:38 they lack judgement
0:12:39 that they have made
0:12:41 many poor decisions
0:12:41 in the past
0:12:42 otherwise they wouldn’t
0:12:43 need a handout.
0:12:45 But in somewhere
0:12:46 like Cameroon
0:12:48 that’s definitely not true.
0:12:49 There are lots and lots
0:12:50 of people in really
0:12:51 difficult situations
0:12:53 in many countries
0:12:53 in the world
0:12:55 and absolutely not
0:12:56 because of any bad decisions
0:12:57 that they themselves
0:12:58 have made.
0:12:59 So I think we need
0:13:00 to shake off this idea
0:13:01 that if someone
0:13:02 needs a handout
0:13:03 then by definition
0:13:05 they can’t be trusted
0:13:06 with the handout.
0:13:07 We’ve got to
0:13:08 break out of that
0:13:09 because that’s just nonsense.
0:13:10 So even an economist
0:13:11 says that giving
0:13:12 is good for us.
0:13:13 If you want to put
0:13:14 that advice into effect
0:13:15 right away
0:13:16 then consider giving
0:13:17 to the Pods Fight
0:13:18 Poverty campaign.
0:13:19 Just go to
0:13:20 givedirectly.org
0:13:21 slash happinesslab.
0:13:23 The next podcaster
0:13:24 to share a story
0:13:25 on the power of giving
0:13:26 is an old friend
0:13:26 of the show.
0:13:27 First of all
0:13:28 it’s great to see you again.
0:13:29 Yeah, it’s been so long.
0:13:30 It’s been a minute.
0:13:31 It has, yeah.
0:13:33 Army veteran J.R. Martinez
0:13:35 was badly wounded
0:13:35 in Iraq
0:13:36 when the Humvee
0:13:37 he was driving
0:13:38 hit a roadside bomb.
0:13:39 Forced to end
0:13:40 his military service
0:13:41 J.R. entered
0:13:42 a dark chapter
0:13:43 but he eventually
0:13:44 fought back
0:13:45 building a series
0:13:46 of new careers
0:13:48 first as a TV actor
0:13:49 then as a
0:13:49 Dancing with the Stars
0:13:50 champion
0:13:51 and finally
0:13:52 as the host
0:13:53 of the inspiring podcast
0:13:54 Medal of Honor.
0:13:56 J.R. is a big fan
0:13:56 of giving back.
0:13:58 He’s done an incredible
0:13:58 amount of service
0:13:59 for the veteran community
0:14:00 but today
0:14:02 he has to share a story
0:14:02 not of giving
0:14:03 but of receiving
0:14:04 specifically
0:14:05 of receiving
0:14:06 a life-changing gift
0:14:08 that he didn’t even know
0:14:08 he needed.
0:14:10 In 2009
0:14:12 I was asked to
0:14:13 do the auction
0:14:15 for a veteran’s
0:14:16 golf outing
0:14:17 and it was going to
0:14:18 benefit a non-profit
0:14:19 set up to help
0:14:20 you know
0:14:20 service members
0:14:21 and their families
0:14:22 and immediately
0:14:22 I was like
0:14:23 of course
0:14:24 now I’m not an auctioneer
0:14:25 but I’m sure
0:14:26 I’ll get up there
0:14:26 and you know
0:14:27 try to do my best
0:14:29 and I was like
0:14:29 well what are some
0:14:30 of the auction items
0:14:30 and they said
0:14:32 this, this, this, this
0:14:33 and a puppy
0:14:34 and so they bring
0:14:35 out the puppy
0:14:36 he’s eight weeks old
0:14:37 black lab
0:14:39 and I hold him
0:14:41 and I feel this
0:14:42 like connection
0:14:43 I’m financially
0:14:45 going through
0:14:46 my budget
0:14:48 as a
0:14:48 you know
0:14:50 27 year old
0:14:50 of like
0:14:52 how much could I
0:14:53 bid on this puppy
0:14:54 the max was like
0:14:55 I could probably do
0:14:56 like 600 bucks
0:14:56 like that’s the
0:14:57 absolute max
0:14:59 so we get there
0:15:00 and immediately
0:15:01 like that number
0:15:02 has surpassed
0:15:02 like it
0:15:03 we’re not at 600
0:15:04 that number
0:15:04 has moved on
0:15:06 and so I’m holding
0:15:07 the next auction item
0:15:08 this quilt
0:15:09 and I’m ready
0:15:10 to move it along
0:15:11 and a lady
0:15:13 raises her hand
0:15:14 that bidded
0:15:15 on the dog
0:15:15 and says
0:15:16 may I say something
0:15:18 so we’re like
0:15:18 of course
0:15:19 so she comes up
0:15:19 to the stage
0:15:20 she says
0:15:21 we love animals
0:15:22 we love dogs
0:15:23 we love this dog
0:15:24 we love this cause
0:15:25 but unfortunately
0:15:25 we have
0:15:26 you know
0:15:27 pets at home
0:15:28 so there’s no room
0:15:29 for this sweet dog
0:15:30 at our house
0:15:31 and she says
0:15:32 so we want to give them
0:15:33 give him to JR
0:15:35 and I’m like
0:15:35 that quilt
0:15:36 like I’m just like
0:15:37 now using it
0:15:38 to like wipe
0:15:40 all the tears
0:15:41 and the snot
0:15:41 and everything
0:15:42 and I’m in shock
0:15:44 I was still going
0:15:45 through my stages
0:15:46 of you know
0:15:47 like I was mad
0:15:48 and I was navigating
0:15:50 a lot of emotional things
0:15:52 and they give him to me
0:15:54 and I take him home
0:15:56 and Lori
0:15:57 I mean
0:15:58 he helped me heal
0:15:59 and he was my
0:16:00 he was my companion
0:16:01 in all these
0:16:02 stages of life
0:16:03 that I navigated
0:16:05 and I’m just forever
0:16:07 like grateful
0:16:07 and every time
0:16:08 I would see the couple
0:16:11 that did that gesture
0:16:12 for me
0:16:13 I mean as you can imagine
0:16:14 I always felt forever
0:16:15 indebted to them
0:16:16 because of
0:16:16 you know
0:16:17 what they gave to me
0:16:18 and the gift
0:16:19 they gave to me
0:16:21 and when he passed
0:16:22 it was one of the hardest
0:16:23 things that I’ve experienced
0:16:24 in my life
0:16:25 what was his name
0:16:25 Romeo
0:16:28 and I remember
0:16:29 like I named him
0:16:30 Warrior
0:16:32 because I was like
0:16:33 well it’s for wounded warriors
0:16:34 you know
0:16:34 this is like
0:16:34 you know
0:16:36 the mid-20s kid
0:16:36 you know
0:16:37 guy
0:16:38 naming the dog
0:16:39 and I was like
0:16:39 Warrior
0:16:40 yeah you’re a warrior
0:16:40 then I was like
0:16:41 what am I going to call you
0:16:42 for short
0:16:42 War
0:16:43 and I was like
0:16:43 well I don’t know
0:16:45 I started noticing
0:16:46 this pattern
0:16:47 where people would see him
0:16:48 and they would just like
0:16:49 gravitate to him
0:16:50 and I was like
0:16:52 ah you’re no warrior
0:16:53 you’re a Romeo
0:16:54 and every time
0:16:55 I would look at him
0:16:56 no matter what stage
0:16:57 of life that I was in
0:16:59 his look
0:17:02 just always reminded me
0:17:02 to just be
0:17:04 just to be present
0:17:05 just to be with him
0:17:07 just to be with the environment
0:17:08 can’t tell you how many times
0:17:09 I would take him to the park
0:17:11 and we would just sit at the park
0:17:12 just he and I
0:17:13 it also seemed like
0:17:14 you didn’t realize
0:17:14 at that moment
0:17:15 that you really needed
0:17:16 this kind gift
0:17:17 but then when it came
0:17:18 in your life
0:17:19 it really changed it
0:17:20 I had no clue
0:17:23 I had absolutely no clue
0:17:24 that this is what I needed
0:17:25 as much as I was sitting
0:17:25 here budgeting
0:17:26 like how much can I
0:17:27 realistically afford
0:17:28 to bid on this dog
0:17:29 I was then thinking about
0:17:30 my life is busy
0:17:32 I can’t have a dog right now
0:17:33 like who’s gonna watch
0:17:34 the dog for me
0:17:35 when I have to travel
0:17:36 there were all these
0:17:38 reasons why
0:17:39 I also couldn’t have one
0:17:41 and then the universe said
0:17:42 this is what you need
0:17:43 and gave it to me
0:17:43 and guess what
0:17:45 I figured it out
0:17:45 I mean I don’t know
0:17:46 how much folks
0:17:47 ended up spending on Romeo
0:17:48 it was clearly more than
0:17:49 your 600 bucks
0:17:50 that you’re gonna spend
0:17:51 but you know
0:17:52 but my guess is
0:17:53 whatever they spent
0:17:54 it actually wasn’t as much
0:17:55 as you wound up
0:17:56 getting out of Romeo
0:17:57 like the act of doing
0:17:58 something nice for somebody
0:17:59 has these like
0:18:00 incredible returns
0:18:01 like this huge return
0:18:02 on investment
0:18:02 that we just don’t
0:18:03 often realize
0:18:04 100%
0:18:06 if Romeo was here today
0:18:07 and someone offered
0:18:09 500 times more
0:18:10 than what they spent
0:18:11 would I take it
0:18:13 absolutely not
0:18:15 absolutely not
0:18:17 there is no price
0:18:17 that I can put
0:18:18 on that gesture
0:18:19 of what they did
0:18:19 for me
0:18:20 that’s the place
0:18:22 we gotta operate from
0:18:22 do
0:18:23 give
0:18:24 even if we never
0:18:25 necessarily get to
0:18:26 understand the full
0:18:27 impact that it had
0:18:29 and if you want to
0:18:30 follow JR’s advice
0:18:31 to do and to give
0:18:32 then here’s the url
0:18:33 where you can donate
0:18:34 to the Pods Fight
0:18:35 Poverty campaign
0:18:37 it’s givedirectly.org
0:18:38 slash happiness lab
0:18:40 it’s time for a quick break
0:18:41 but we’ll return
0:18:42 with the story
0:18:43 of a world famous author
0:18:44 who carries cash
0:18:45 for strangers in need
0:18:46 and a scientist
0:18:47 who’s seen
0:18:48 the first hand benefits
0:18:49 of an unexpectedly
0:18:50 kind word
0:18:51 the happiness lab
0:18:52 special episode
0:18:53 on the power of giving
0:18:54 will return in a moment
0:18:57 I’m Jen Hatmaker
0:18:58 and on For the Love
0:18:59 we talk about life
0:19:00 in the middle years
0:19:01 the mess
0:19:03 the meaning
0:19:04 and everything in between
0:19:05 follow and listen
0:19:06 wherever you get
0:19:07 your podcasts
0:19:14 welcome back
0:19:15 to the happiness lab
0:19:16 special giving
0:19:17 Tuesday episode
0:19:18 in the spirit
0:19:19 of my favorite
0:19:20 charitable holiday
0:19:21 I’m chatting
0:19:21 with my favorite
0:19:22 podcasters
0:19:23 about their personal
0:19:24 stories of generosity
0:19:26 our goal is to remind you
0:19:27 that one of the quickest
0:19:28 ways to feel happier
0:19:29 yourself
0:19:30 is to give a little
0:19:30 happiness
0:19:32 back to somebody else
0:19:33 next up
0:19:34 we have Michael Lewis
0:19:35 best-selling author
0:19:36 of Moneyball
0:19:37 and the Blindside
0:19:38 and host of the
0:19:39 award-winning podcast
0:19:40 Against the Rules
0:19:42 Michael wanted to share
0:19:42 a new strategy
0:19:43 he’s been using
0:19:44 to make it as easy
0:19:45 as possible
0:19:46 for him to do good
0:19:47 for people in need
0:19:49 I made a decision
0:19:51 to always carry
0:19:52 a bunch of $10 bills
0:19:52 with me
0:19:53 so that
0:19:54 if I see anybody
0:19:55 who asks me for money
0:19:57 I just automatically
0:19:58 give them $10
0:19:59 people on the streets
0:20:01 so I’ve started doing it
0:20:01 and so how does it feel
0:20:03 so it is
0:20:04 completely true
0:20:04 that
0:20:06 when you give
0:20:06 something
0:20:07 to someone else
0:20:08 you feel good
0:20:09 totally feels good
0:20:11 but years ago
0:20:12 when I was working
0:20:13 on the Blindside
0:20:14 the Christian family
0:20:15 the dad
0:20:15 and the family
0:20:17 said to me
0:20:18 something in passing
0:20:18 about giving
0:20:20 that I’ve never
0:20:20 been able to get
0:20:21 out of my head
0:20:22 when I hit a little
0:20:23 bump in my mind
0:20:23 about giving
0:20:24 it’s a touchdown
0:20:24 for me
0:20:26 and it’s
0:20:27 if it doesn’t hurt
0:20:28 a little bit
0:20:29 you haven’t given enough
0:20:30 I thought that was
0:20:31 a cool idea
0:20:32 and so
0:20:33 you know
0:20:33 it’s not a natural act
0:20:34 just to hand money
0:20:35 over to people
0:20:36 it hurts a tiny bit
0:20:38 so that also
0:20:40 is a reassuring feeling
0:20:41 I bet each of those
0:20:41 $10 bills
0:20:42 that you gave away
0:20:43 the benefit
0:20:44 that came to you
0:20:45 was way more than
0:20:45 $10
0:20:46 that you would have
0:20:47 blown on like
0:20:47 two lattes
0:20:48 or something silly
0:20:49 so this has only
0:20:49 been going on
0:20:50 for a couple months
0:20:50 so this has only
0:20:51 happened like five times
0:20:52 but I’m going to try
0:20:53 to make this a habit
0:20:53 forever
0:20:55 just because I think
0:20:57 it will change
0:20:57 my relationship
0:20:58 to just people
0:20:59 on the streets
0:21:00 I don’t mean people
0:21:01 who are homeless
0:21:01 I just mean like
0:21:02 everybody around you
0:21:03 especially like
0:21:04 if you’re in a city
0:21:05 you kind of go
0:21:07 through the world
0:21:08 waiting for someone
0:21:09 to ask you
0:21:10 for something
0:21:11 and you have
0:21:12 all those defenses up
0:21:13 and so
0:21:14 those defenses
0:21:15 don’t just
0:21:15 operate against
0:21:16 the people
0:21:17 who are asking
0:21:18 you for money
0:21:19 they operate
0:21:19 against everything
0:21:20 they’re the enemy
0:21:22 of moving
0:21:22 through the world
0:21:23 in a good way
0:21:24 in an open way
0:21:26 so it opens up
0:21:26 things a little bit
0:21:27 yeah I love this advice
0:21:28 because it so nicely
0:21:29 ties to the type
0:21:30 of thing that we’re
0:21:31 doing with give directly
0:21:32 right like their
0:21:33 whole deal is that
0:21:34 they just give
0:21:35 these cash transfers
0:21:36 no questions asked
0:21:37 and the act of doing
0:21:38 that means you’re not
0:21:39 kind of thinking
0:21:40 in ways where you’re
0:21:42 being mistrustful
0:21:42 and kind of like
0:21:43 analyzing people
0:21:44 like first of all
0:21:44 it’s just like
0:21:45 too much cognitive load
0:21:46 of like what is this
0:21:47 money going to go to
0:21:47 is it going to go
0:21:48 to something good
0:21:48 or whatever
0:21:49 but more than the
0:21:50 cognitive load
0:21:51 you just wind up
0:21:52 thinking all these
0:21:53 bad theories
0:21:54 about your fellow
0:21:54 humans right
0:21:55 like they’re going
0:21:55 to spend this
0:21:56 on something terrible
0:21:56 they’re going to
0:21:57 use drugs
0:21:57 or something like
0:21:58 that
0:21:59 so just committing
0:21:59 like no I’m
0:21:59 just going to
0:22:00 give the money
0:22:00 I’m going to
0:22:01 trust that other
0:22:01 people have good
0:22:02 intentions of what
0:22:02 they’re going to
0:22:03 do with it
0:22:04 first of all you
0:22:04 get the benefit
0:22:05 that you get
0:22:05 from giving
0:22:06 but also beyond
0:22:07 that you don’t
0:22:07 have all this
0:22:08 like yucky
0:22:09 mistrust that
0:22:10 comes with like
0:22:10 wondering what
0:22:11 somebody’s going to
0:22:11 do with the money
0:22:12 it’s just like
0:22:13 there’s a wonderful
0:22:14 like cognitive
0:22:14 load reducer
0:22:15 and like negative
0:22:16 social contagion
0:22:17 reducer
0:22:19 correct all correct
0:22:21 so we’ll see if I
0:22:22 persist in this
0:22:23 but this has been
0:22:24 a little giving
0:22:25 wrinkle in my life
0:22:26 I hope Michael’s
0:22:27 tiny wrinkle
0:22:28 grows into a big
0:22:28 ridge
0:22:29 a subtle shift
0:22:30 that turns into
0:22:31 real positive change
0:22:32 for Michael
0:22:33 and for anyone
0:22:34 feeling a little
0:22:35 inspired by his
0:22:36 new giving tactic
0:22:37 and if you’re
0:22:38 feeling newly
0:22:38 inspired to make
0:22:39 a difference
0:22:39 you’re at luck
0:22:40 because you can
0:22:41 take part in our
0:22:42 pods fight poverty
0:22:43 campaign right now
0:22:44 just head to
0:22:45 give directly
0:22:45 dot org
0:22:46 slash happiness
0:22:47 lab to give
0:22:48 what you can
0:22:50 next up is a
0:22:50 story of kindness
0:22:51 from one of my
0:22:52 former Yale students
0:22:53 a fellow psychologist
0:22:54 who is also the
0:22:55 host of an
0:22:55 award-winning
0:22:56 podcast
0:22:57 plus is one of
0:22:58 my dear friends
0:22:59 hey I’m Dr.
0:23:00 Maya Shunker
0:23:01 and I’m the host
0:23:02 of a slight
0:23:03 change of plans
0:23:04 and so Maya
0:23:05 what’s your story
0:23:06 of unexpected
0:23:07 benefits of
0:23:08 kindness
0:23:09 my moment
0:23:10 is actually one
0:23:11 from elementary
0:23:12 school so
0:23:13 we’re going way
0:23:13 back for this one
0:23:14 yeah we’re going
0:23:15 all the way back
0:23:17 I was bullied
0:23:18 a lot as a kid
0:23:19 and
0:23:19 wait really
0:23:20 I’m surprised
0:23:20 by this somehow
0:23:21 I didn’t know
0:23:22 this about you
0:23:23 oh my gosh
0:23:23 oh my god
0:23:24 so many tears
0:23:25 so much
0:23:26 anxiety
0:23:26 wait who
0:23:26 was your
0:23:27 worst bully
0:23:27 mine was
0:23:28 I won’t say
0:23:28 her name
0:23:29 I’ll say
0:23:29 it was
0:23:30 Jessica T
0:23:31 she was
0:23:31 terrible
0:23:32 Jacqueline
0:23:33 Kellen
0:23:33 Lindsay
0:23:34 it was a trio
0:23:36 and Carly too
0:23:36 but these were
0:23:37 girls in my
0:23:37 neighborhood
0:23:38 that
0:23:39 weren’t super
0:23:40 nice to me
0:23:40 and it was
0:23:41 really hard
0:23:42 at the time
0:23:42 I just thought
0:23:43 oh I’m a
0:23:44 deeply flawed
0:23:44 broken person
0:23:45 with some
0:23:46 hindsight
0:23:47 I realized
0:23:47 oh how
0:23:48 interesting
0:23:49 I was
0:23:49 one of
0:23:49 very
0:23:50 very few
0:23:50 kids
0:23:51 of color
0:23:51 in my
0:23:52 whole
0:23:52 school
0:23:52 I wonder
0:23:53 if maybe
0:23:53 that played
0:23:53 a role
0:23:55 but regardless
0:23:55 of what
0:23:55 contributed
0:23:57 to the
0:23:57 meanness
0:23:57 and the
0:23:58 cruelty
0:23:59 I spent
0:24:00 my childhood
0:24:01 feeling
0:24:02 just really
0:24:02 insecure
0:24:03 and really
0:24:03 really anxious
0:24:04 and these
0:24:05 bullies gave
0:24:06 credence to
0:24:06 my worst fears
0:24:07 about myself
0:24:08 was this like
0:24:08 in the
0:24:09 schoolyard
0:24:09 on the bus
0:24:10 like where
0:24:10 did this
0:24:10 happen
0:24:11 oh my god
0:24:12 cafeteria
0:24:13 so Carly
0:24:13 one day
0:24:14 was like
0:24:15 you’re so
0:24:15 ugly
0:24:15 it’s painful
0:24:16 for me
0:24:16 to look
0:24:17 at you
0:24:17 and then
0:24:18 got up
0:24:18 and went
0:24:18 to another
0:24:19 table
0:24:19 there was
0:24:20 another
0:24:20 episode
0:24:21 in
0:24:21 elementary
0:24:22 school
0:24:22 where
0:24:23 the kids
0:24:23 had decided
0:24:24 in advance
0:24:24 that they
0:24:24 were going
0:24:25 to pretend
0:24:25 I was
0:24:26 invisible
0:24:26 that day
0:24:26 so when
0:24:27 I went
0:24:27 to go
0:24:27 drink
0:24:28 from my
0:24:28 milk carton
0:24:28 I lifted
0:24:29 up
0:24:29 they were
0:24:29 like
0:24:30 oh there’s
0:24:30 a milk
0:24:31 carton
0:24:31 floating
0:24:31 in the air
0:24:32 how funny
0:24:32 and now
0:24:33 there’s
0:24:33 a fork
0:24:33 in the air
0:24:34 like oh
0:24:35 my god
0:24:35 I’m like
0:24:36 I can’t believe
0:24:36 they’re pretending
0:24:37 I literally
0:24:37 don’t exist
0:24:38 I want to
0:24:38 like jump
0:24:39 through the
0:24:39 zoom
0:24:39 and hug
0:24:39 you
0:24:39 but wait
0:24:40 how is
0:24:40 this a story
0:24:41 about kindness
0:24:42 I just don’t
0:24:42 see where
0:24:42 this is
0:24:42 okay
0:24:43 sorry
0:24:43 sorry
0:24:45 so I
0:24:45 was bullied
0:24:46 a lot
0:24:46 and
0:24:47 there were
0:24:48 a few
0:24:48 kids
0:24:49 that were
0:24:50 so deeply
0:24:51 kind to me
0:24:52 and weren’t
0:24:53 just nice
0:24:54 behind the
0:24:54 scenes
0:24:55 but were
0:24:56 advocates
0:24:56 for me
0:24:57 when it
0:24:57 really
0:24:57 mattered
0:24:58 so I
0:24:59 remember
0:24:59 there was
0:24:59 this one
0:25:00 girl in
0:25:00 my
0:25:00 neighborhood
0:25:01 named
0:25:02 Adrienne
0:25:03 and we
0:25:03 were on
0:25:03 the school
0:25:03 bus
0:25:04 the school
0:25:04 bus
0:25:04 was brutal
0:25:05 because like
0:25:05 a lot of
0:25:06 the kids
0:25:06 didn’t want
0:25:06 to sit
0:25:06 next to
0:25:07 me
0:25:07 so as a
0:25:07 whole
0:25:07 thing
0:25:08 it’s like
0:25:08 we’d rather
0:25:09 sit five
0:25:09 in a seat
0:25:10 rather than
0:25:10 sit next
0:25:11 to Maya
0:25:11 you know
0:25:12 kids are
0:25:12 terrible
0:25:12 right
0:25:13 so I
0:25:14 remember
0:25:15 some kids
0:25:15 were saying
0:25:16 some nasty
0:25:16 things to
0:25:17 me
0:25:18 and Adrienne
0:25:18 stood up
0:25:19 and was
0:25:19 like
0:25:20 all of
0:25:20 you guys
0:25:20 just
0:25:21 shut up
0:25:22 Maya
0:25:22 is
0:25:23 awesome
0:25:24 I
0:25:24 just
0:25:25 remember
0:25:26 those
0:25:27 words
0:25:27 in little
0:25:27 kid
0:25:28 Maya’s
0:25:28 brain
0:25:29 were
0:25:30 transformative
0:25:31 like I
0:25:31 had a
0:25:32 transcendent
0:25:32 experience
0:25:33 in that
0:25:33 moment
0:25:34 and I
0:25:35 just
0:25:35 remember
0:25:36 being so
0:25:36 moved
0:25:37 by the
0:25:38 fact that
0:25:38 she was
0:25:38 willing
0:25:39 to stand
0:25:40 up and
0:25:40 say these
0:25:41 things in
0:25:41 front of
0:25:41 the people
0:25:42 that I
0:25:42 was really
0:25:42 scared by
0:25:43 because I’m
0:25:43 not exactly
0:25:44 the type
0:25:44 of person
0:25:45 who would
0:25:45 have fought
0:25:46 back in
0:25:46 those moments
0:25:47 and like
0:25:47 really stood
0:25:48 my ground
0:25:48 instead I
0:25:49 thought
0:25:50 oh I
0:25:50 know let
0:25:51 me try to
0:25:51 kill them
0:25:52 with kindness
0:25:52 maybe that
0:25:53 will win over
0:25:53 the bully
0:25:54 and that is
0:25:55 clearly a
0:25:55 very losing
0:25:56 strategy when
0:25:56 it comes to
0:25:57 engaging with
0:25:57 bullies
0:25:57 effectively
0:25:58 so Adrienne
0:25:59 did this
0:25:59 for me
0:26:00 and it
0:26:01 really helped
0:26:01 change the
0:26:02 landscape for
0:26:02 me it’s not
0:26:03 like the
0:26:03 bullies were
0:26:04 suddenly nice
0:26:05 but I now
0:26:06 felt like
0:26:07 Adrienne was
0:26:07 in my
0:26:09 corner and
0:26:09 it changes
0:26:10 your whole
0:26:11 mentality when
0:26:11 you feel like
0:26:12 even one
0:26:13 person is on
0:26:13 your team
0:26:15 and I was
0:26:16 fast forwarding
0:26:17 decades to
0:26:18 think about how
0:26:19 this had
0:26:20 affected me as
0:26:21 a person and
0:26:22 actually Laurie it
0:26:23 was a moment
0:26:24 from my time at
0:26:24 Yale when I was
0:26:25 your undergrad
0:26:26 student there
0:26:28 was a guy in
0:26:29 my dorm room
0:26:30 who was being
0:26:30 bullied because
0:26:31 he was suffering
0:26:33 from depression
0:26:33 and bipolar
0:26:35 disorder and
0:26:37 it didn’t fit
0:26:37 with the kind
0:26:38 of frat boy
0:26:39 machismo
0:26:42 athlete vibe I
0:26:43 guess that his
0:26:43 social group
0:26:45 entertained and
0:26:46 they were so
0:26:47 cruel to him
0:26:47 they were so
0:26:49 mean and I
0:26:49 remember being
0:26:50 like I’m
0:26:51 going to be
0:26:52 Adrienne for
0:26:53 him for
0:26:54 Noah and I
0:26:55 stood up to
0:26:56 those guys and
0:26:57 I was like you
0:26:58 guys suck and
0:26:59 Noah’s amazing
0:27:01 and how dare
0:27:01 you be so
0:27:02 ignorant about
0:27:03 mental illness
0:27:03 and those
0:27:04 struggles I
0:27:04 even remember
0:27:05 at a reunion
0:27:06 I gave this
0:27:08 guy so much
0:27:09 I don’t know
0:27:10 what a kosher
0:27:10 word I can say
0:27:11 on this podcast
0:27:12 is but it was
0:27:12 not a fun
0:27:13 exchange I’ll
0:27:13 say for this
0:27:14 other guy because
0:27:14 I was like how
0:27:15 could you treat
0:27:15 Noah like that
0:27:16 and I actually
0:27:18 just got a text
0:27:18 message from Noah
0:27:19 a couple months
0:27:21 ago saying I
0:27:22 remember in
0:27:22 college when I
0:27:23 was going through
0:27:24 such a hard
0:27:25 time Maya you
0:27:27 were so on
0:27:28 my side and
0:27:28 you were so
0:27:29 nice to me and
0:27:30 it really touched
0:27:31 my heart that I
0:27:32 could pay it
0:27:32 forward like that
0:27:33 because I remember
0:27:34 having been on the
0:27:35 receiving end of
0:27:36 that see I told
0:27:36 you Laurie it
0:27:37 had a happy
0:27:37 ending okay that
0:27:38 was good I’m
0:27:38 glad that happy
0:27:39 ending came up
0:27:40 it wasn’t just
0:27:40 like Maya getting
0:27:41 tortured on the
0:27:41 bus no but I
0:27:42 love this story
0:27:43 because it shows
0:27:44 like Adrienne’s
0:27:45 probably not sitting
0:27:46 there thinking
0:27:47 about like how
0:27:47 she helped this
0:27:48 one person in
0:27:49 elementary school
0:27:50 but you right
0:27:50 now are thinking
0:27:51 about how that
0:27:51 helped you to
0:27:53 this day and a
0:27:54 decade after that
0:27:54 it was also
0:27:55 helping somebody
0:27:56 else like in
0:27:57 college and so
0:27:58 we forget not
0:27:59 just like how
0:28:00 long our kind
0:28:01 events wind up
0:28:01 helping the
0:28:02 people that we
0:28:03 do nice things
0:28:04 for but also
0:28:05 like how many
0:28:06 times these turn
0:28:07 into like these
0:28:07 cascades where
0:28:08 like more nice
0:28:09 things happen over
0:28:10 time absolutely
0:28:11 they have these
0:28:12 beautiful spillover
0:28:13 effects right and
0:28:14 there’s this concept
0:28:16 in psychology called
0:28:17 moral elevation and
0:28:18 it’s basically when
0:28:18 you witness someone
0:28:19 else’s extraordinary
0:28:20 actions so it
0:28:21 could be their
0:28:22 kindness or their
0:28:23 courage or their
0:28:24 self-sacrifice or
0:28:25 their ability to
0:28:26 forgive other
0:28:27 people any
0:28:28 character trait that
0:28:28 you find really
0:28:29 amazing and
0:28:30 impressive that can
0:28:31 lead to this warm
0:28:32 fuzzy feeling in
0:28:33 your chest that
0:28:34 makes you feel like
0:28:35 wow humans are
0:28:35 capable of
0:28:36 extraordinary things
0:28:38 but importantly when
0:28:40 you experience moral
0:28:41 elevation it doesn’t
0:28:43 just feel good it
0:28:43 actually changes your
0:28:45 brain when you see
0:28:46 someone challenge your
0:28:48 understanding of the
0:28:49 world and about what
0:28:50 humans are capable of
0:28:51 it cracks open your
0:28:52 own imagination about
0:28:53 what you are capable
0:28:55 of and I love that
0:28:56 insight because what
0:28:57 it’s done in my own
0:28:58 life is it’s made me a
0:29:00 more keen observer so
0:29:01 when I’m walking in
0:29:03 the coffee shop I’ll
0:29:03 notice someone being
0:29:04 extra nice to the
0:29:06 barista or I’ll notice
0:29:07 that someone went out
0:29:08 of their way to smile
0:29:09 at me when I’m going
0:29:11 on a walk and these
0:29:12 moments feel so good in
0:29:13 the moment but they
0:29:15 also have these long
0:29:17 lasting effects on our
0:29:18 psychology and our view
0:29:19 of others and
0:29:20 importantly of
0:29:21 ourselves and our
0:29:21 potential our
0:29:23 capabilities as people
0:29:24 and so it’s really
0:29:25 enriched my life to see
0:29:26 the world through a
0:29:27 moral beauty lens
0:29:28 this is such a great
0:29:29 example I feel like
0:29:30 especially in winter
0:29:31 when everything’s
0:29:32 feeling so dark and
0:29:33 so glum that like
0:29:34 they’re just these
0:29:35 examples of beauty and
0:29:36 kindness out there that
0:29:37 we can find and that
0:29:38 seeing them isn’t just
0:29:39 like witnessing
0:29:40 something that’s
0:29:40 beautiful it’s also
0:29:41 changing us too
0:29:43 exactly and yes
0:29:44 winter is dark but
0:29:45 also the world like
0:29:46 we’re in a really
0:29:46 dark place right now
0:29:48 it’s very hard to
0:29:49 stay hopeful and
0:29:51 positive and I have
0:29:53 just felt like reminding
0:29:54 myself that actually
0:29:56 humans are so good at
0:29:57 their core because you
0:29:57 can witness these
0:29:59 beautiful acts every
0:29:59 single day and that’s
0:30:01 in my control unlike so
0:30:02 much else that’s
0:30:03 happening in the world
0:30:04 is a wonderful way of
0:30:05 reclaiming my agency
0:30:07 and allowing myself
0:30:08 moments of happiness
0:30:10 moments of joy in
0:30:11 everyday life against
0:30:13 the backdrop of a lot of
0:30:14 suffering in the world
0:30:16 you know and so yeah I’ve
0:30:16 just been grateful for
0:30:17 the gift that we’ve
0:30:19 gotten from science in
0:30:20 the space of moral
0:30:21 elevation and if my
0:30:22 story has given you a
0:30:23 moment of moral
0:30:25 elevation remember that
0:30:25 you can choose to
0:30:26 become an adrian too
0:30:28 you can do that by
0:30:29 joining me and dozens of
0:30:30 other podcasters as
0:30:32 part of the pods fight
0:30:33 poverty campaign why
0:30:34 not donate five bucks
0:30:36 right now by heading to
0:30:37 give directly dot org
0:30:39 slash happiness lab
0:30:40 that’s give directly dot
0:30:42 org slash happiness lab
0:30:44 it’s time for a break but
0:30:45 when we return I’ll get
0:30:47 to share my own story of
0:30:48 the power of giving and
0:30:49 how four words that I
0:30:50 quickly scribbled nearly
0:30:52 20 years ago said a
0:30:53 little girl on the path to
0:30:54 becoming an aerospace
0:30:56 engineer the happiness lab
0:30:57 will be right back
0:31:03 i’m jen hatmaker and on for
0:31:04 the love we talk about life
0:31:06 in the middle years the
0:31:08 mess the meaning and
0:31:10 everything in between follow
0:31:11 and listen wherever you get
0:31:12 your podcasts
0:31:22 welcome back to the happiness
0:31:24 lab special giving tuesday
0:31:26 episode today we’re
0:31:27 exploring just how much we
0:31:28 underestimate the
0:31:30 psychological power of small
0:31:32 acts of generosity and the
0:31:33 next story is one that
0:31:34 really hits home for me
0:31:36 because the person in this
0:31:37 story doing all that
0:31:38 underestimating of the power
0:31:41 of giving was me so in
0:31:43 2008 i was six years old
0:31:47 this is avery miller and i
0:31:49 didn’t know too much you
0:31:50 know about the world i
0:31:51 suppose but i knew that i
0:31:52 wanted to be an astronaut
0:31:54 because i’d read books about
0:31:55 them i’d seen them on tv and
0:31:56 my parents were very
0:31:58 encouraging of all of that
0:31:59 and my mom realized there
0:32:01 was an event called world
0:32:03 science festival the world
0:32:04 science festival is a
0:32:05 multimedia science
0:32:07 education organization that
0:32:08 began as an annual event in
0:32:09 new york city to make
0:32:11 science fun and accessible to
0:32:12 the general public think
0:32:14 panels and talks interactive
0:32:15 exhibits and kid-friendly
0:32:17 games avery’s mom thought
0:32:18 her daughter would love it
0:32:20 so the millers decided to
0:32:21 take the four-hour trek from
0:32:23 their home in boston to new
0:32:25 york city so we went to the
0:32:26 festival and there’s a lot of
0:32:28 really cool outside stuff and
0:32:29 you know the typical kid
0:32:31 activities but my mom was like
0:32:32 you know i think avery would
0:32:34 really love going to some
0:32:36 talks which an insane thing to
0:32:38 think about a six-year-old but
0:32:41 that’s my mom so we went to
0:32:43 quite a few talks but i think
0:32:45 they were mostly men so not
0:32:47 really role models that’s when
0:32:48 avery stumbled on a panel that
0:32:49 would change her life forever
0:32:52 it was called cool jobs where
0:32:53 scientists shared the cool
0:32:55 questions they explored and the
0:32:56 fun places they got to work
0:32:59 there was a disney imagineer a
0:33:01 forensics expert who used science
0:33:03 to solve crimes and an early
0:33:05 career psychologist whose name
0:33:06 you might recognize if you’re a
0:33:08 fan of the show she spends a lot
0:33:10 of time thinking about how we
0:33:13 think and how we play and how we
0:33:15 fall in love by hiking through
0:33:17 the jungles of puerto rico watching
0:33:19 monkeys please a warm welcome for
0:33:21 dr laurie santos
0:33:25 hello everyone thanks for having me
0:33:27 today so i’m going to tell you a
0:33:29 little bit about a job that i bet
0:33:30 many of you are thinking about and
0:33:31 that’s the kind of job that’s
0:33:33 involved with working with
0:33:36 animals so fun fact long before i
0:33:38 began studying happiness i spent a
0:33:39 lot of my early career trying to
0:33:41 understand the human mind by
0:33:43 studying the cognitive abilities of
0:33:46 monkeys back in 2008 i was asked to
0:33:48 talk about that primate work on the
0:33:50 cool jobs panel at the world science
0:33:52 festival the organizers of the panel
0:33:53 assumed it would be of interest to
0:33:55 college students thinking about their
0:33:57 future careers but what we didn’t
0:33:58 expect was to have so many little
0:34:01 kids in the audience little kids who
0:34:02 were apparently very impressed that
0:34:03 there were jobs where you could hang
0:34:06 out with monkeys little kids just like
0:34:08 avery i was like you get to be
0:34:10 outside you get to do science and that
0:34:14 was sort of a mind-blowing moment of
0:34:16 like oh my god there’s someone like me
0:34:17 who’s doing all this really cool stuff
0:34:21 and my mom again being really cool was
0:34:23 like well let’s go talk to her avery’s
0:34:25 mom wasn’t the only audience member to
0:34:27 have the idea as the new york times
0:34:29 would later report quote after the
0:34:32 event dr santos was mobbed by a group
0:34:34 of children curious about what she
0:34:37 calls monkey magic tricks i spent over
0:34:39 an hour after that panel sitting on
0:34:40 stage talking with kids about my work
0:34:43 and one of those kids was an eager
0:34:45 little girl named avery so i went up
0:34:47 and i think i told you all about how i
0:34:49 wanted to be an astronaut and how i
0:34:51 wanted to go to mit because you know
0:34:53 growing up in boston if you want to do
0:34:56 science you want to go to mit and we
0:34:57 didn’t have anything for you to sign
0:35:00 except for the back of the ticket on the
0:35:01 email my mom printed out
0:35:05 so you signed it i have it here if you
0:35:06 want to see it oh my gosh can you hold
0:35:08 it up yeah oh my gosh with like a monkey
0:35:14 drawing that’s yeah so i drew monkeys on
0:35:17 it as you can see which i’m sure my mom
0:35:19 told me not to but you wrote have fun at
0:35:22 mit love laurie and i was like this is the
0:35:24 coolest thing ever a scientist thinks i
0:35:27 can be a scientist we framed it and then
0:35:30 i put it on my desk and then i guess i
0:35:33 never moved it off my desk i mean like i
0:35:35 look at it all the time in high school i’d
0:35:38 sit there and do my homework and so it’s
0:35:39 like you know what this means i can do it
0:35:42 you know as much as i hated chemistry at
0:35:43 the time okay i gotta get the chemistry
0:35:46 done because i’m gonna go to mit so it was
0:35:48 just this constant little reminder that
0:35:50 like i could do that i mean it’s so
0:35:52 funny i sign lots of things for lots of
0:35:54 folks and just the idea that they would
0:35:55 keep them is really cool but also just that
0:35:57 it turned into an inspiration for you
0:36:01 i failed a class almost failed a class in
0:36:03 the eighth grade and it was science and i was
0:36:08 like that means i can’t do it because if
0:36:10 everyone looks at you as the science kid and
0:36:12 you’re going around failing science classes
0:36:15 it’s hard so i looked at it and i was
0:36:17 like you know what someone says that i
0:36:19 can do it i saw someone else do it you
0:36:20 know there were a lot of people rooting me
0:36:24 on but i had this thing from such a young
0:36:26 age one person telling you you can do it
0:36:27 when you didn’t even know that was an
0:36:31 option is perhaps more meaningful so yeah
0:36:35 it was a big deal to me then it’s still a
0:36:37 big deal to me now i had it on my desk all
0:36:39 through college all the dorms i lived in
0:36:42 i have it now that i live on my own it’s
0:36:44 just always lived on my desk it’s always
0:36:46 just been there i also have a sally ride
0:36:48 picture though so you’re up there with her
0:36:51 that’s amazing sounds like you wound up
0:36:53 going to college did you end up going to
0:36:56 mit or what happened yeah so um by senior
0:36:58 year i realized that i did not want to go
0:37:01 to mit mit’s great but it wasn’t the right
0:37:05 fit i ended up going to purdue i became an
0:37:07 aerospace engineer wait like mind-boggling
0:37:09 like you became an aerospace engineer
0:37:12 that’s so cool i reconnected with avery and
0:37:14 learned about her story when she sent me an
0:37:16 email out of the blue thanking me for being
0:37:19 such an inspiration to her as she wrote in
0:37:21 her letter you took the time to speak to me
0:37:24 learn my name and just made me feel like no
0:37:27 matter what i could do it thank you for being
0:37:30 an inspiration in six-year-old me’s life i
0:37:32 know that you carved the way for this field to
0:37:35 be one that women like me can thrive in i mean
0:37:40 wow i had no idea that scribbling those four
0:37:42 little words nearly 20 years ago would have had
0:37:45 such an impact on someone’s life i also didn’t
0:37:48 realize that those words would ripple into the
0:37:51 next generation of scientists too i think one
0:37:53 of the things that i learned and i really
0:37:55 appreciated when i met you when i was young
0:37:57 was that you didn’t talk to me like i was a
0:38:00 little kid i never felt like someone was
0:38:04 talking down to me which i think in stem we have a
0:38:06 tendency to do when people don’t understand stuff
0:38:09 i think it was einstein though i could be misquoting
0:38:11 who said if you can’t explain it to a five-year-old you don’t
0:38:14 understand it there’s something to be said for
0:38:16 approaching someone on their level that’s how
0:38:18 people can hold on and be like wow i really do want to
0:38:21 learn more it definitely makes me think about how
0:38:24 i’m giving my time because like i mentor middle
0:38:26 schoolers and i’m like maybe one day one of these
0:38:28 middle schoolers will reach out and you know same
0:38:31 sort of thing of like oh you impacted me so
0:38:34 who knows look at you the six-year-old has become
0:38:37 an adult now i know i mean one of the reasons this
0:38:39 story is so compelling for me also just that like i
0:38:41 affected someone who’s so cool and doing such
0:38:43 cool stuff now it’s just amazing the fact that
0:38:46 someone who speaks to john green thinks i’m
0:38:49 cool is possibly the coolest thing ever i’m sure he
0:38:52 would think you’re cool too but i mean it’s just
0:38:55 like you just have these short interactions in life
0:38:57 where you don’t necessarily realize how much you’re
0:39:00 affecting people and i think if you can have those
0:39:03 interactions in a way that are like positive or encouraging
0:39:05 we just like don’t know the ripple effect of the kind of
0:39:08 thing that we can do to other people and so it was just
0:39:11 such a reminder of like oh my gosh i can have this like
0:39:14 incredibly long-standing like you know 20 year ish
0:39:16 positive effect and i might not be realizing i could do that
0:39:20 right now and also the fact that i can reconnect with you
0:39:23 after 20 years and it still be something meaningful i’m curious was
0:39:26 there a moment that you decided to reach back out like was
0:39:29 there like a catalyst of why you decided to reach out when you
0:39:32 did i’m hoping to go back to school
0:39:35 eventually so i’ve been studying for exams and
0:39:39 sometimes you have just a day where you’re looking at your exam
0:39:42 book and you’re like there is no way that i can keep doing
0:39:44 this there’s no way i can keep answering problems
0:39:49 and i looked at the the note which again sits on my desk all the time so i’m
0:39:52 looking at it and i’m like you know i should really reach out to her and tell
0:39:53 her that this is impactful
0:39:57 this really just like blew my mind and really just even this conversation i feel
0:40:00 like my face is going to hurt from smiling after talking about this
0:40:02 me as well which is a great thing
0:40:08 avery’s story is a powerful example of how a few simple words can shape someone’s life
0:40:13 in unimaginable ways but it also shows how absolutely great it feels to be the person
0:40:19 who gives that small act of kindness and yet even when we know these small gestures matter
0:40:26 most of us still struggle to actually do them we put off reaching out we delay helping we wait for
0:40:31 the right time to give why do we procrastinate on doing the very thing that will make us and other
0:40:38 people feel so good to find out i tagged in our final podcast host guest a behavioral scientist
0:40:43 who has studied this exact problem katie do you want to start by introducing yourself i’d be delighted
0:40:47 my name is katie milkman and i am a professor at the wharton school
0:40:50 host of the podcast choiceology and author of the book how to change
0:40:55 so katie we’ve just heard all these amazing things that happen when people are nice to each other and
0:41:00 do nice things for each other including with money we’ve also just heard not just what happens to the
0:41:05 people who receive these wonderful things but also what happens to you the donor in terms of your
0:41:10 happiness and how great you feel but the problem is that our minds are stupid and sometimes we can
0:41:15 know all this stuff and still not put it into practice this is the kind of thing that you study right
0:41:19 yes although i wouldn’t say our minds are stupid i think our minds are incredible but they’re
0:41:25 constantly taking shortcuts and they’re sort of wired for situations that don’t always optimize
0:41:31 our current environment in the modern era so like the mind is amazing i don’t want to denigrate the
0:41:36 mind okay yeah no no diss to the mind great you know we’re walking around really smart primates built
0:41:41 the internet all this stuff but we sometimes forget the importance of doing for other people like when
0:41:45 it comes to our social connection i think this is a spot where we really get it wrong yeah no absolutely
0:41:51 we don’t anticipate how good it will feel to you know engage in conversations engage in gift giving just
0:41:56 be kind to others in a wide variety of ways we don’t realize how much that will actually generate
0:42:02 happiness for us our minds are also stupid in that we just like forget stuff like i’m guessing a lot of
0:42:07 people right now are like oh my gosh this is a great opportunity to give directly but like you
0:42:12 actually have to do that and like forgetfulness and friction is bad that’s right yeah follow through
0:42:19 is one of the main barriers to change that i have studied like we need to remind people we need to
0:42:23 catch them in a moment when they can take action and actually this relates to some research i did a
0:42:28 number of years ago related to giving so this was a project led by amanda chuan who’s an amazing
0:42:32 professor at michigan state and also with my colleague here judd kessler where we were able to get
0:42:39 data from the university of pennsylvania’s hospital system on asks they made to pass patients to give
0:42:44 right so you’ve had an experience with the university of pennsylvania hospital system you were
0:42:49 here inpatient for some sort of service or treatment you have to stay overnight right that’s kind of a big
0:42:53 deal or you’re checked into the hospital so you’re probably feeling a lot of gratitude right now and
0:42:58 you have an opportunity when the university asks would you give to this hospital system you have an
0:43:05 opportunity to express that gratitude the data we got allowed us to look at whether or not those mailings
0:43:10 came right away or at a time delay because they send them in batches every few months so if the batch
0:43:15 send happens to occur just a couple weeks after you leave the hospital you’re going to get it real
0:43:20 quickly but if it happens a few months later well then it’s going to be a long time after your
0:43:24 inpatient stay that you’re going to be asked would you be willing to reciprocate and make it a donation
0:43:29 and what was interesting is that we found a pretty steep decay so if we hit you right after you’ve
0:43:34 had this positive experience you’re much more likely to give you’re feeling still that warmth and gratitude
0:43:41 and remembering how meaningful it was to be taken care of whereas if a little time passes the hot state
0:43:47 the sort of warmth and the reciprocity feelings those positive feelings that generate the decision to give
0:43:53 those are what’s decaying and that also presumably suggests that you’re not going to feel as good
0:44:00 about making that reciprocal gesture if your strong feelings have dissipated and you wait so one of the
0:44:05 things i think that teaches us about giving is generally when we are remembering when we’re in that
0:44:10 hot state when we realize how good it will make us feel like take action right away don’t let that moment slip
0:44:15 and i think more similarly in in so many parts of your life like when you’re feeling gratitude to
0:44:20 someone or when you’ve had a really positive experience and you want to make sure you don’t
0:44:26 forget to tell someone you you know you were a great professor laurie and i’m so grateful for this thing you
0:44:33 did or you know thank you for mentoring me um whatever it is express that gratitude immediately because
0:44:38 you’re going to forget if you let the moment pass and i think you know one of the things i’ve studied in
0:44:43 in my research in other domains is just that our motivation in general waxes and wanes like
0:44:48 over time right we years ago did an episode together laurie about some of my work with heng chen dai
0:44:53 of ucla on the fresh start effect that there are these moments when we’re more motivated to make a
0:44:57 change in our lives and i think that’s just part of a bigger process like we don’t walk around the
0:45:02 world with like constant flat states of emotion and motivation we’re moving all over the place and
0:45:08 capitalizing on the hot state feelings is important to doing the things that are good for us in the long
0:45:11 run that are good for our relationships and our happiness because whenever we do it we’re going
0:45:15 to feel good doing that right in your fresh start work where you look and when when do people start
0:45:20 exercising whatever you get the exercise habit going that’s going to have benefits for you whenever
0:45:25 you actually get the gift done the kind words said you’re going to experience benefit but if you wait
0:45:30 and the motivation goes away then you’re never going to wind up getting those benefits exactly so
0:45:33 if someone’s listening to this right now and they’re thinking oh my gosh i want to give to give
0:45:39 directly how do they lock it in do they like pause the episode and just go do it right now do not wait
0:45:44 that’s right because that feeling will decay faster than you realize and so this is the moment to do it
0:45:49 don’t wait don’t delay you think you’re going to do it tomorrow but you won’t so do it right now
0:45:51 okay we’re going to do a pause
0:46:05 so hopefully during that little audio break some folks paused the episode and actually gave to give
0:46:10 directly but i’m guessing some folks maybe couldn’t do it immediately are there other social science hacks
0:46:16 we can use if we’re motivated right now but we can actually hit like send immediately yeah absolutely
0:46:21 maybe you’re driving right now but you can talk to a virtual assistant in your phone you might ask it to
0:46:26 put a calendar alert in your calendar for later today when you know you might have a moment to remind
0:46:32 you to follow through and choose a specific time you could also ask that virtual assistant to send a ping
0:46:38 a text or an email to someone who can hold you accountable and check in and say hey please ask me
0:46:44 when you see me partner roommate friend uh tomorrow if i’ve followed through on my pledge to give to give
0:46:49 directly we know that social accountability and making concrete plans with reminders are two ways
0:46:55 we can hold our future self to account for the things we want to get done and i especially love the social
0:46:59 accountability suggestion because that gives us a little bit of social connection and maybe just maybe
0:47:04 that partner friend roommate might also donate to give directly and get a little happiness boost
0:47:11 i love that perfect yes ask them to both nag you and to give themselves love this katie thank you so
0:47:15 much for helping us try to figure out how we can use our biases to feel better and do better in the
0:47:20 world thanks so much for having me and for putting together this wonderful compilation i love give
0:47:25 directly and i’m really excited about it even small acts of generosity a moment of encouragement
0:47:32 a few kind words 10 bucks donated to a good cause can have incredible ripple effects and the sooner you
0:47:38 act on a charitable impulse the sooner you’ll experience that positive impact so go ahead and
0:47:45 join the pods fight poverty campaign by donating at give directly.org slash happiness lab that’s give
0:47:51 directly.org slash happiness lab and if you’re not in a position to give that’s fine maybe you’d consider
0:47:56 sharing our campaign with your friends and colleagues just use the hashtag pods fight poverty to raise
0:48:03 awareness fight extreme poverty and unwrap a little gift of happiness for yourself too the happiness lab
0:48:09 will continue in the holiday spirit for the rest of the year next week we’ll be tackling your holiday
0:48:17 happiness woes with a very hilarious special guest actor and podcaster rain wilson that’s all next time
0:48:20 on the happiness lab with me dr laurie santos
0:48:35 this is an iheart podcast guaranteed human
0:00:03 Guaranteed human.
0:00:06 I’m Jen Hatmaker, and on For the Love,
0:00:09 we talk about life in the middle years.
0:00:12 The mess, the meaning, and everything in between.
0:00:15 Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts.
0:00:34 Hello, and welcome to a special edition
0:00:36 of the Happiness Lab Podcast.
0:00:39 I hope all my listeners who celebrate
0:00:40 had a happy Thanksgiving.
0:00:43 But the day I really look forward to each November
0:00:45 is the Tuesday after Thanksgiving.
0:00:47 Forget Black Friday and Cyber Monday.
0:00:50 My holiday of choice is Giving Tuesday.
0:00:53 Giving Tuesday is the global holiday of charitable giving
0:00:56 that falls right in the midst of our shopping frenzy,
0:00:59 a day that’s not about commerce, but compassion.
0:01:01 Here at the Happiness Lab,
0:01:03 we tend to make a big deal out of Giving Tuesday.
0:01:06 Every year, we share a special episode
0:01:08 that explores why doing good for others
0:01:10 is super good for our own happiness.
0:01:13 We also like to give our listeners a chance to team up
0:01:15 and donate to a charitable cause
0:01:16 that really does good in the world.
0:01:20 For the past few years, that charity has been GiveDirectly,
0:01:22 a nonprofit that takes your cash
0:01:25 and gives it directly to people in extreme poverty
0:01:26 to spend as they see fit.
0:01:29 But this year, we are going even bigger.
0:01:31 We’re bringing together the fans
0:01:33 of some of my favorite podcasts
0:01:35 to raise even more money to fight poverty.
0:01:37 Think 10% Happier with Dan Harris,
0:01:39 On Purpose with Jay Shetty,
0:01:41 Revisionist History, Hidden Brain,
0:01:44 How to Be a Better Human, and dozens more.
0:01:47 The campaign even has its own hashtag,
0:01:48 Pods Fight Poverty.
0:01:50 Pods Fight Poverty is trying to raise
0:01:52 a million dollars this year,
0:01:54 enough money to lift several villages in Rwanda
0:01:55 out of extreme poverty.
0:01:57 If you want to help,
0:02:00 head to givedirectly.org slash happinesslab
0:02:01 to donate what you can.
0:02:04 That’s givedirectly.org slash happinesslab.
0:02:06 If you’re a fan of this show,
0:02:08 you’ve probably already heard about the great things
0:02:10 GiveDirectly can do with a small donation
0:02:11 from a listener like you.
0:02:13 Take the great work we did earlier this year
0:02:16 in collaboration with author and YouTube star,
0:02:17 John Green.
0:02:19 Don and I asked you to partner up with GiveDirectly
0:02:22 to tackle the deadly disease, tuberculosis.
0:02:25 Tuberculosis is an airborne disease.
0:02:26 It usually affects the lungs.
0:02:27 If left untreated,
0:02:30 tuberculosis usually does result in death.
0:02:32 Fortunately, since the 1950s,
0:02:33 we’ve had a cure for tuberculosis.
0:02:35 It’s a bacterial infection,
0:02:37 so the cure is antibiotics given every day
0:02:38 over four to six months.
0:02:40 The problem is that many people with TB
0:02:42 live in parts of the world
0:02:44 where they can’t afford these life-saving drugs.
0:02:46 So John and I asked our listeners to help out.
0:02:50 With lots of small donations of five or ten bucks,
0:02:53 we raised over $100,000 to fight this disease.
0:02:55 That’s incredible, right?
0:02:57 But what’s even more incredible
0:02:58 are the stories we heard
0:02:59 about what this money did
0:03:01 for people living with the disease.
0:03:03 Take one recipient, Margaret,
0:03:06 a 30-year-old TB patient living in Malawi.
0:03:09 Margaret’s TB could have easily been cured
0:03:10 with a simple antibiotic,
0:03:13 but lacking the resources to get treatment,
0:03:15 she eventually got sicker and sicker.
0:03:18 That is, until she received the cash donation
0:03:19 we provided through GiveDirectly.
0:03:21 With that small amount of money,
0:03:24 she was able to pay for the bicycle taxi
0:03:26 she needed to travel to a far-off clinic,
0:03:28 where she was able to finally start
0:03:29 her drug treatment.
0:03:32 I was overjoyed when I received the cash transfer,
0:03:33 Margaret wrote in her thank-you letter
0:03:34 to our listeners.
0:03:37 It felt like my life had been given a second chance.
0:03:38 I have hope again.
0:03:42 Months later, I still think back to Margaret’s story
0:03:43 whenever I’m having a crappy day.
0:03:47 Taking a moment to remember what the five or ten bucks
0:03:48 we collectively shared did,
0:03:49 not just for Margaret,
0:03:51 but for hundreds of other people who were struggling,
0:03:53 that feels amazing.
0:03:56 Probably more amazing than any material gift
0:03:57 I’ll be getting this holiday season.
0:04:01 That good feeling is what the rest of this episode is about.
0:04:04 With the help of some amazing fellow podcasters,
0:04:07 I’m going to explore the enormous psychological power
0:04:08 of giving and receiving.
0:04:10 We’ll see how small acts of kindness,
0:04:12 a spare bit of cash,
0:04:13 or a tiny gesture of care,
0:04:16 can create huge ripples in a person’s life.
0:04:18 I want these stories to serve as a reminder
0:04:21 for something our lying minds often forget,
0:04:23 that a great way to treat ourselves
0:04:25 is to do a small bit of good for somebody else.
0:04:28 To kick off these stories of how doing good
0:04:29 can make us feel good,
0:04:31 let’s look at how receiving an act of kindness
0:04:32 can change us.
0:04:36 And we’ll do that with my first esteemed podcast host guest.
0:04:38 Hi, my name’s Tim Harford,
0:04:41 and I am the host of Cautionary Tales.
0:04:44 Tim is a respected journalist and economist,
0:04:46 but his story of being the recipient of kindness
0:04:49 goes back to a time before he found fame
0:04:52 working for the BBC or hosting Cautionary Tales.
0:04:56 This story took place nearly a quarter of a century ago.
0:05:00 I was visiting a friend in Cameroon,
0:05:03 which is in West Africa,
0:05:05 very poor part of the world.
0:05:08 I was in my mid-twenties and I was on edge
0:05:11 because, you know, Cameroon was at the time
0:05:13 rated as one of the most corrupt countries in the world.
0:05:15 And corrupt or not,
0:05:17 people there were often really desperate.
0:05:21 As a tourist, you feel like you’re a target.
0:05:23 And so I was always on the lookout.
0:05:25 I had just had this sort of suspicion.
0:05:28 I went around my travels around Cameroon.
0:05:30 I had a great time,
0:05:32 was treated wonderfully by everybody I met,
0:05:34 but I never lost that feeling of,
0:05:35 you need to be careful.
0:05:39 Then one day I was standing by the roadside
0:05:43 in a smallish town called Bermenda
0:05:45 with a couple of Western friends.
0:05:47 And I think we were waiting for a bus,
0:05:49 just bought some egg and chips.
0:05:50 We’re having a good time.
0:05:53 And we’ve just walked across country several miles
0:05:56 on this dust road.
0:05:58 And as we’re waiting,
0:06:02 a couple of guys zoom up behind us on a motorbike,
0:06:03 two guys on one motorbike.
0:06:07 I turn around expecting some threat
0:06:09 and they stop right in front of me
0:06:11 and one of them just hands me something.
0:06:13 And I look down at it.
0:06:14 What is this?
0:06:16 And it’s a passport.
0:06:19 In fact, it’s my passport.
0:06:21 I mean, I’m completely bewildered.
0:06:23 Why is this guy giving me my own passport?
0:06:25 And of course, I realized what’s happened
0:06:28 is the passport was in my back pocket
0:06:31 and I’ve sat down by the roadside miles back
0:06:33 and the passport must have fallen out.
0:06:36 And these guys have driven along this road
0:06:37 on the motorbike.
0:06:39 They’ve spotted a British passport
0:06:41 and they’ve gone all the way down the road
0:06:44 looking for the first guy they see
0:06:45 who looks British, which is me.
0:06:47 They’ve even got my photo in my passport.
0:06:50 And the amazing thing was they handed it over
0:06:51 and then they just drove off.
0:06:53 They didn’t sort of stand around
0:06:55 waiting for a tip or reward
0:06:57 or even really a thanks.
0:06:58 I was just, you know, there you go.
0:07:00 Thought you might need this.
0:07:01 And off they went.
0:07:04 And I realized that this suspicion
0:07:06 with which I’ve been viewing everybody
0:07:09 had been so much the opposite
0:07:12 of how these guys had actually behaved.
0:07:14 I mean, I would have been even more grateful
0:07:17 if I had had a moment to realize
0:07:18 I even had a problem
0:07:20 because if I had been stuck in Cameroon
0:07:22 without my passport,
0:07:23 that’s a big problem.
0:07:27 That’s going to cause me a lot of headaches.
0:07:29 But they had solved the problem
0:07:31 before I even realized they’d solved the problem.
0:07:32 They had completely defied
0:07:35 my rather uncharitable expectations
0:07:37 of the people of Cameroon.
0:07:39 And they’d driven off into the sunset
0:07:40 without even waiting for a thank you.
0:07:42 It also seems like they did a lot of work.
0:07:44 Like it sounds like they were like chasing you
0:07:46 as you’re walking around all through the day
0:07:47 to try to find you too.
0:07:49 Probably they came a couple of miles
0:07:50 on the motorbike.
0:07:54 I mean, it was probably 10 or 15 minutes.
0:07:55 Maybe.
0:07:58 I don’t know at all really how much work they did.
0:08:00 But all I know is that they did it
0:08:04 and they could easily have taken that passport
0:08:06 and thought, well, maybe we can turn this
0:08:07 into cash somehow.
0:08:10 Or even just maybe we can try
0:08:12 and get a tip out of this guy.
0:08:13 Or just left it on the ground.
0:08:14 Like, oh, well, you know,
0:08:15 I don’t know this guy.
0:08:15 Yeah.
0:08:20 I mean, I love that story,
0:08:21 but it also points out how like
0:08:22 so many of our societies
0:08:24 are probably much more high trust societies
0:08:25 than we assume.
0:08:26 Like so many people are out there
0:08:28 doing better things than we think.
0:08:29 But I think we have minds
0:08:31 that assume people are kind of mistrusting.
0:08:32 I actually, unfortunately, Tim,
0:08:33 I actually blame the economists
0:08:35 on this a little bit
0:08:37 because I feel like at least…
0:08:37 Oh, fine.
0:08:38 Yeah, sure.
0:08:39 We kick the economists.
0:08:41 I mean, at least the standard economists
0:08:42 have been telling us for a long time
0:08:44 that, you know, we are home economicus.
0:08:45 We are these selfish beings.
0:08:46 We’re going to go out, you know.
0:08:47 So maybe the folks
0:08:48 who returned your passport
0:08:49 would do it if they thought
0:08:51 they could get, you know,
0:08:51 some cash off you
0:08:52 or they, you know,
0:08:53 maybe they get some huge
0:08:54 reputational benefits.
0:08:56 Someone saw them do it
0:08:56 and, you know,
0:08:57 now they kind of like
0:08:59 praising them and so on.
0:09:00 But they wouldn’t just do it
0:09:01 just for the good of doing it.
0:09:02 Well, I mean,
0:09:03 let me push back a little bit.
0:09:04 Let me push back a little bit
0:09:05 and defend my fellow economists.
0:09:07 So the classic economic model,
0:09:09 all it says is that people
0:09:10 have consistent preferences
0:09:12 and it’s kind of convenient
0:09:15 to assume that those preferences
0:09:16 are about consumption.
0:09:17 Like you’re trying to spend
0:09:18 as little money as possible
0:09:20 and get as much stuff
0:09:21 as possible for that money.
0:09:22 But it doesn’t have to be.
0:09:23 You could,
0:09:24 and I’ve seen,
0:09:25 I’ve seen some beautiful
0:09:26 economic models written
0:09:29 where actually my pleasure
0:09:30 is completely dependent
0:09:31 on your pleasure, Laurie.
0:09:32 Like the happier,
0:09:34 I can just see the glow
0:09:34 in your eyes.
0:09:36 I know how happy you are
0:09:38 and the happier you are,
0:09:39 the happier that makes me.
0:09:41 There’s nothing in conventional economics
0:09:42 that makes that impossible.
0:09:44 We tend not to make that assumption
0:09:45 because it’s kind of,
0:09:46 why would you?
0:09:47 And so we simplify
0:09:48 and we talk about the purchase
0:09:49 of goods and services
0:09:50 and we ignore the altruistic bit.
0:09:52 There’s nothing in classical economics
0:09:54 that says people can’t be altruistic.
0:09:55 We, I think,
0:09:56 just haven’t paid enough attention
0:09:58 to that possibility.
0:09:59 And because we don’t pay attention
0:10:00 to the possibility,
0:10:02 we just set it to one side.
0:10:02 Are you surprised
0:10:04 that we don’t think
0:10:05 of kind actions
0:10:06 as as valuable,
0:10:07 as impactful
0:10:08 as they often are?
0:10:10 If I can just be a kind of
0:10:12 amateur evolutionary psychologist
0:10:13 for a moment,
0:10:15 I suppose you might naturally think
0:10:16 that we had evolved
0:10:18 to be a little bit more
0:10:19 suspicious of people,
0:10:20 particularly of strangers,
0:10:21 because, you know,
0:10:22 it’s bad to have someone
0:10:23 take advantage of you.
0:10:24 But actually, of course,
0:10:26 we evolved to be social beings
0:10:27 and maybe we shouldn’t
0:10:28 be so surprised
0:10:30 that people often
0:10:31 behave kindly to each other.
0:10:32 I mean, I am aware
0:10:35 of some research in psychology.
0:10:36 You’ll know this kind of
0:10:38 work better than me, Laurie,
0:10:40 but we often fail to generalize.
0:10:40 Like we think,
0:10:42 oh, if I found a wallet
0:10:45 with like a driving license in it,
0:10:46 then, you know,
0:10:47 I’d contact the owner
0:10:48 or I’d hand it
0:10:49 into the police station.
0:10:51 Yeah, of course,
0:10:51 that’s what I’d do.
0:10:53 But then you ask people,
0:10:54 you ask if other people
0:10:55 would do that.
0:10:56 And we think,
0:10:56 oh, no, other people
0:10:57 wouldn’t do that.
0:10:59 And it’s not like we think
0:11:00 we’re better than other people.
0:11:02 It’s just that
0:11:03 the two questions
0:11:05 don’t even overlap.
0:11:05 It’s almost as though
0:11:06 we’ve got a different circuit
0:11:07 in our brain
0:11:08 reflecting on how we would behave
0:11:11 or reflecting on how
0:11:12 we think somebody else
0:11:12 will behave.
0:11:13 And this is a challenge
0:11:14 for the organization
0:11:15 that we’ve been working
0:11:16 with, GiveDirectly.
0:11:17 Their philosophy is like
0:11:18 we’re just going to give people
0:11:19 money directly
0:11:20 and let them do with it
0:11:21 what they want,
0:11:22 that people in need
0:11:23 have the best ideas
0:11:24 about how to spend their money
0:11:26 to make their situation better.
0:11:27 But a lot of the folks
0:11:28 who are thinking about
0:11:29 giving to give directly
0:11:31 often have the following problem
0:11:32 which is like
0:11:33 are people really going to know
0:11:34 what to do with the money?
0:11:35 Are they going to do something bad?
0:11:37 Are they going to buy something frivolous
0:11:38 or something like that?
0:11:39 It seems like people
0:11:40 just don’t trust people
0:11:42 to make the best decisions.
0:11:43 And I feel like this is part
0:11:45 of the same kind of bias we have.
0:11:46 As undercover economists,
0:11:48 how do you think of this bias
0:11:49 and what are we doing wrong?
0:11:50 Give the economists some credit.
0:11:52 We definitely trust people
0:11:52 to make decisions
0:11:54 in their own interests.
0:11:56 There are cases
0:11:56 where you might go
0:11:58 look, the money is only useful
0:12:00 if it’s coordinated.
0:12:02 So actually what this village
0:12:02 really needs
0:12:04 is a bridge or a well.
0:12:06 But in general
0:12:08 people are going to be good stewards
0:12:09 of their own money
0:12:10 and they’re going to be good judges
0:12:12 of how to spend that money
0:12:13 because there’s so much
0:12:14 they know
0:12:15 about their situation
0:12:17 about their context
0:12:18 and about their own ambitions
0:12:21 that nobody else can know.
0:12:22 And if you give them money
0:12:23 then you’re putting them
0:12:24 in the best possible position
0:12:26 to take advantage
0:12:27 of their own context
0:12:29 and to fulfil their own ambitions.
0:12:31 We’re sort of trained
0:12:32 to believe
0:12:33 that if somebody
0:12:35 really needs a handout
0:12:37 that must be because
0:12:38 they lack judgement
0:12:39 that they have made
0:12:41 many poor decisions
0:12:41 in the past
0:12:42 otherwise they wouldn’t
0:12:43 need a handout.
0:12:45 But in somewhere
0:12:46 like Cameroon
0:12:48 that’s definitely not true.
0:12:49 There are lots and lots
0:12:50 of people in really
0:12:51 difficult situations
0:12:53 in many countries
0:12:53 in the world
0:12:55 and absolutely not
0:12:56 because of any bad decisions
0:12:57 that they themselves
0:12:58 have made.
0:12:59 So I think we need
0:13:00 to shake off this idea
0:13:01 that if someone
0:13:02 needs a handout
0:13:03 then by definition
0:13:05 they can’t be trusted
0:13:06 with the handout.
0:13:07 We’ve got to
0:13:08 break out of that
0:13:09 because that’s just nonsense.
0:13:10 So even an economist
0:13:11 says that giving
0:13:12 is good for us.
0:13:13 If you want to put
0:13:14 that advice into effect
0:13:15 right away
0:13:16 then consider giving
0:13:17 to the Pods Fight
0:13:18 Poverty campaign.
0:13:19 Just go to
0:13:20 givedirectly.org
0:13:21 slash happinesslab.
0:13:23 The next podcaster
0:13:24 to share a story
0:13:25 on the power of giving
0:13:26 is an old friend
0:13:26 of the show.
0:13:27 First of all
0:13:28 it’s great to see you again.
0:13:29 Yeah, it’s been so long.
0:13:30 It’s been a minute.
0:13:31 It has, yeah.
0:13:33 Army veteran J.R. Martinez
0:13:35 was badly wounded
0:13:35 in Iraq
0:13:36 when the Humvee
0:13:37 he was driving
0:13:38 hit a roadside bomb.
0:13:39 Forced to end
0:13:40 his military service
0:13:41 J.R. entered
0:13:42 a dark chapter
0:13:43 but he eventually
0:13:44 fought back
0:13:45 building a series
0:13:46 of new careers
0:13:48 first as a TV actor
0:13:49 then as a
0:13:49 Dancing with the Stars
0:13:50 champion
0:13:51 and finally
0:13:52 as the host
0:13:53 of the inspiring podcast
0:13:54 Medal of Honor.
0:13:56 J.R. is a big fan
0:13:56 of giving back.
0:13:58 He’s done an incredible
0:13:58 amount of service
0:13:59 for the veteran community
0:14:00 but today
0:14:02 he has to share a story
0:14:02 not of giving
0:14:03 but of receiving
0:14:04 specifically
0:14:05 of receiving
0:14:06 a life-changing gift
0:14:08 that he didn’t even know
0:14:08 he needed.
0:14:10 In 2009
0:14:12 I was asked to
0:14:13 do the auction
0:14:15 for a veteran’s
0:14:16 golf outing
0:14:17 and it was going to
0:14:18 benefit a non-profit
0:14:19 set up to help
0:14:20 you know
0:14:20 service members
0:14:21 and their families
0:14:22 and immediately
0:14:22 I was like
0:14:23 of course
0:14:24 now I’m not an auctioneer
0:14:25 but I’m sure
0:14:26 I’ll get up there
0:14:26 and you know
0:14:27 try to do my best
0:14:29 and I was like
0:14:29 well what are some
0:14:30 of the auction items
0:14:30 and they said
0:14:32 this, this, this, this
0:14:33 and a puppy
0:14:34 and so they bring
0:14:35 out the puppy
0:14:36 he’s eight weeks old
0:14:37 black lab
0:14:39 and I hold him
0:14:41 and I feel this
0:14:42 like connection
0:14:43 I’m financially
0:14:45 going through
0:14:46 my budget
0:14:48 as a
0:14:48 you know
0:14:50 27 year old
0:14:50 of like
0:14:52 how much could I
0:14:53 bid on this puppy
0:14:54 the max was like
0:14:55 I could probably do
0:14:56 like 600 bucks
0:14:56 like that’s the
0:14:57 absolute max
0:14:59 so we get there
0:15:00 and immediately
0:15:01 like that number
0:15:02 has surpassed
0:15:02 like it
0:15:03 we’re not at 600
0:15:04 that number
0:15:04 has moved on
0:15:06 and so I’m holding
0:15:07 the next auction item
0:15:08 this quilt
0:15:09 and I’m ready
0:15:10 to move it along
0:15:11 and a lady
0:15:13 raises her hand
0:15:14 that bidded
0:15:15 on the dog
0:15:15 and says
0:15:16 may I say something
0:15:18 so we’re like
0:15:18 of course
0:15:19 so she comes up
0:15:19 to the stage
0:15:20 she says
0:15:21 we love animals
0:15:22 we love dogs
0:15:23 we love this dog
0:15:24 we love this cause
0:15:25 but unfortunately
0:15:25 we have
0:15:26 you know
0:15:27 pets at home
0:15:28 so there’s no room
0:15:29 for this sweet dog
0:15:30 at our house
0:15:31 and she says
0:15:32 so we want to give them
0:15:33 give him to JR
0:15:35 and I’m like
0:15:35 that quilt
0:15:36 like I’m just like
0:15:37 now using it
0:15:38 to like wipe
0:15:40 all the tears
0:15:41 and the snot
0:15:41 and everything
0:15:42 and I’m in shock
0:15:44 I was still going
0:15:45 through my stages
0:15:46 of you know
0:15:47 like I was mad
0:15:48 and I was navigating
0:15:50 a lot of emotional things
0:15:52 and they give him to me
0:15:54 and I take him home
0:15:56 and Lori
0:15:57 I mean
0:15:58 he helped me heal
0:15:59 and he was my
0:16:00 he was my companion
0:16:01 in all these
0:16:02 stages of life
0:16:03 that I navigated
0:16:05 and I’m just forever
0:16:07 like grateful
0:16:07 and every time
0:16:08 I would see the couple
0:16:11 that did that gesture
0:16:12 for me
0:16:13 I mean as you can imagine
0:16:14 I always felt forever
0:16:15 indebted to them
0:16:16 because of
0:16:16 you know
0:16:17 what they gave to me
0:16:18 and the gift
0:16:19 they gave to me
0:16:21 and when he passed
0:16:22 it was one of the hardest
0:16:23 things that I’ve experienced
0:16:24 in my life
0:16:25 what was his name
0:16:25 Romeo
0:16:28 and I remember
0:16:29 like I named him
0:16:30 Warrior
0:16:32 because I was like
0:16:33 well it’s for wounded warriors
0:16:34 you know
0:16:34 this is like
0:16:34 you know
0:16:36 the mid-20s kid
0:16:36 you know
0:16:37 guy
0:16:38 naming the dog
0:16:39 and I was like
0:16:39 Warrior
0:16:40 yeah you’re a warrior
0:16:40 then I was like
0:16:41 what am I going to call you
0:16:42 for short
0:16:42 War
0:16:43 and I was like
0:16:43 well I don’t know
0:16:45 I started noticing
0:16:46 this pattern
0:16:47 where people would see him
0:16:48 and they would just like
0:16:49 gravitate to him
0:16:50 and I was like
0:16:52 ah you’re no warrior
0:16:53 you’re a Romeo
0:16:54 and every time
0:16:55 I would look at him
0:16:56 no matter what stage
0:16:57 of life that I was in
0:16:59 his look
0:17:02 just always reminded me
0:17:02 to just be
0:17:04 just to be present
0:17:05 just to be with him
0:17:07 just to be with the environment
0:17:08 can’t tell you how many times
0:17:09 I would take him to the park
0:17:11 and we would just sit at the park
0:17:12 just he and I
0:17:13 it also seemed like
0:17:14 you didn’t realize
0:17:14 at that moment
0:17:15 that you really needed
0:17:16 this kind gift
0:17:17 but then when it came
0:17:18 in your life
0:17:19 it really changed it
0:17:20 I had no clue
0:17:23 I had absolutely no clue
0:17:24 that this is what I needed
0:17:25 as much as I was sitting
0:17:25 here budgeting
0:17:26 like how much can I
0:17:27 realistically afford
0:17:28 to bid on this dog
0:17:29 I was then thinking about
0:17:30 my life is busy
0:17:32 I can’t have a dog right now
0:17:33 like who’s gonna watch
0:17:34 the dog for me
0:17:35 when I have to travel
0:17:36 there were all these
0:17:38 reasons why
0:17:39 I also couldn’t have one
0:17:41 and then the universe said
0:17:42 this is what you need
0:17:43 and gave it to me
0:17:43 and guess what
0:17:45 I figured it out
0:17:45 I mean I don’t know
0:17:46 how much folks
0:17:47 ended up spending on Romeo
0:17:48 it was clearly more than
0:17:49 your 600 bucks
0:17:50 that you’re gonna spend
0:17:51 but you know
0:17:52 but my guess is
0:17:53 whatever they spent
0:17:54 it actually wasn’t as much
0:17:55 as you wound up
0:17:56 getting out of Romeo
0:17:57 like the act of doing
0:17:58 something nice for somebody
0:17:59 has these like
0:18:00 incredible returns
0:18:01 like this huge return
0:18:02 on investment
0:18:02 that we just don’t
0:18:03 often realize
0:18:04 100%
0:18:06 if Romeo was here today
0:18:07 and someone offered
0:18:09 500 times more
0:18:10 than what they spent
0:18:11 would I take it
0:18:13 absolutely not
0:18:15 absolutely not
0:18:17 there is no price
0:18:17 that I can put
0:18:18 on that gesture
0:18:19 of what they did
0:18:19 for me
0:18:20 that’s the place
0:18:22 we gotta operate from
0:18:22 do
0:18:23 give
0:18:24 even if we never
0:18:25 necessarily get to
0:18:26 understand the full
0:18:27 impact that it had
0:18:29 and if you want to
0:18:30 follow JR’s advice
0:18:31 to do and to give
0:18:32 then here’s the url
0:18:33 where you can donate
0:18:34 to the Pods Fight
0:18:35 Poverty campaign
0:18:37 it’s givedirectly.org
0:18:38 slash happiness lab
0:18:40 it’s time for a quick break
0:18:41 but we’ll return
0:18:42 with the story
0:18:43 of a world famous author
0:18:44 who carries cash
0:18:45 for strangers in need
0:18:46 and a scientist
0:18:47 who’s seen
0:18:48 the first hand benefits
0:18:49 of an unexpectedly
0:18:50 kind word
0:18:51 the happiness lab
0:18:52 special episode
0:18:53 on the power of giving
0:18:54 will return in a moment
0:18:57 I’m Jen Hatmaker
0:18:58 and on For the Love
0:18:59 we talk about life
0:19:00 in the middle years
0:19:01 the mess
0:19:03 the meaning
0:19:04 and everything in between
0:19:05 follow and listen
0:19:06 wherever you get
0:19:07 your podcasts
0:19:14 welcome back
0:19:15 to the happiness lab
0:19:16 special giving
0:19:17 Tuesday episode
0:19:18 in the spirit
0:19:19 of my favorite
0:19:20 charitable holiday
0:19:21 I’m chatting
0:19:21 with my favorite
0:19:22 podcasters
0:19:23 about their personal
0:19:24 stories of generosity
0:19:26 our goal is to remind you
0:19:27 that one of the quickest
0:19:28 ways to feel happier
0:19:29 yourself
0:19:30 is to give a little
0:19:30 happiness
0:19:32 back to somebody else
0:19:33 next up
0:19:34 we have Michael Lewis
0:19:35 best-selling author
0:19:36 of Moneyball
0:19:37 and the Blindside
0:19:38 and host of the
0:19:39 award-winning podcast
0:19:40 Against the Rules
0:19:42 Michael wanted to share
0:19:42 a new strategy
0:19:43 he’s been using
0:19:44 to make it as easy
0:19:45 as possible
0:19:46 for him to do good
0:19:47 for people in need
0:19:49 I made a decision
0:19:51 to always carry
0:19:52 a bunch of $10 bills
0:19:52 with me
0:19:53 so that
0:19:54 if I see anybody
0:19:55 who asks me for money
0:19:57 I just automatically
0:19:58 give them $10
0:19:59 people on the streets
0:20:01 so I’ve started doing it
0:20:01 and so how does it feel
0:20:03 so it is
0:20:04 completely true
0:20:04 that
0:20:06 when you give
0:20:06 something
0:20:07 to someone else
0:20:08 you feel good
0:20:09 totally feels good
0:20:11 but years ago
0:20:12 when I was working
0:20:13 on the Blindside
0:20:14 the Christian family
0:20:15 the dad
0:20:15 and the family
0:20:17 said to me
0:20:18 something in passing
0:20:18 about giving
0:20:20 that I’ve never
0:20:20 been able to get
0:20:21 out of my head
0:20:22 when I hit a little
0:20:23 bump in my mind
0:20:23 about giving
0:20:24 it’s a touchdown
0:20:24 for me
0:20:26 and it’s
0:20:27 if it doesn’t hurt
0:20:28 a little bit
0:20:29 you haven’t given enough
0:20:30 I thought that was
0:20:31 a cool idea
0:20:32 and so
0:20:33 you know
0:20:33 it’s not a natural act
0:20:34 just to hand money
0:20:35 over to people
0:20:36 it hurts a tiny bit
0:20:38 so that also
0:20:40 is a reassuring feeling
0:20:41 I bet each of those
0:20:41 $10 bills
0:20:42 that you gave away
0:20:43 the benefit
0:20:44 that came to you
0:20:45 was way more than
0:20:45 $10
0:20:46 that you would have
0:20:47 blown on like
0:20:47 two lattes
0:20:48 or something silly
0:20:49 so this has only
0:20:49 been going on
0:20:50 for a couple months
0:20:50 so this has only
0:20:51 happened like five times
0:20:52 but I’m going to try
0:20:53 to make this a habit
0:20:53 forever
0:20:55 just because I think
0:20:57 it will change
0:20:57 my relationship
0:20:58 to just people
0:20:59 on the streets
0:21:00 I don’t mean people
0:21:01 who are homeless
0:21:01 I just mean like
0:21:02 everybody around you
0:21:03 especially like
0:21:04 if you’re in a city
0:21:05 you kind of go
0:21:07 through the world
0:21:08 waiting for someone
0:21:09 to ask you
0:21:10 for something
0:21:11 and you have
0:21:12 all those defenses up
0:21:13 and so
0:21:14 those defenses
0:21:15 don’t just
0:21:15 operate against
0:21:16 the people
0:21:17 who are asking
0:21:18 you for money
0:21:19 they operate
0:21:19 against everything
0:21:20 they’re the enemy
0:21:22 of moving
0:21:22 through the world
0:21:23 in a good way
0:21:24 in an open way
0:21:26 so it opens up
0:21:26 things a little bit
0:21:27 yeah I love this advice
0:21:28 because it so nicely
0:21:29 ties to the type
0:21:30 of thing that we’re
0:21:31 doing with give directly
0:21:32 right like their
0:21:33 whole deal is that
0:21:34 they just give
0:21:35 these cash transfers
0:21:36 no questions asked
0:21:37 and the act of doing
0:21:38 that means you’re not
0:21:39 kind of thinking
0:21:40 in ways where you’re
0:21:42 being mistrustful
0:21:42 and kind of like
0:21:43 analyzing people
0:21:44 like first of all
0:21:44 it’s just like
0:21:45 too much cognitive load
0:21:46 of like what is this
0:21:47 money going to go to
0:21:47 is it going to go
0:21:48 to something good
0:21:48 or whatever
0:21:49 but more than the
0:21:50 cognitive load
0:21:51 you just wind up
0:21:52 thinking all these
0:21:53 bad theories
0:21:54 about your fellow
0:21:54 humans right
0:21:55 like they’re going
0:21:55 to spend this
0:21:56 on something terrible
0:21:56 they’re going to
0:21:57 use drugs
0:21:57 or something like
0:21:58 that
0:21:59 so just committing
0:21:59 like no I’m
0:21:59 just going to
0:22:00 give the money
0:22:00 I’m going to
0:22:01 trust that other
0:22:01 people have good
0:22:02 intentions of what
0:22:02 they’re going to
0:22:03 do with it
0:22:04 first of all you
0:22:04 get the benefit
0:22:05 that you get
0:22:05 from giving
0:22:06 but also beyond
0:22:07 that you don’t
0:22:07 have all this
0:22:08 like yucky
0:22:09 mistrust that
0:22:10 comes with like
0:22:10 wondering what
0:22:11 somebody’s going to
0:22:11 do with the money
0:22:12 it’s just like
0:22:13 there’s a wonderful
0:22:14 like cognitive
0:22:14 load reducer
0:22:15 and like negative
0:22:16 social contagion
0:22:17 reducer
0:22:19 correct all correct
0:22:21 so we’ll see if I
0:22:22 persist in this
0:22:23 but this has been
0:22:24 a little giving
0:22:25 wrinkle in my life
0:22:26 I hope Michael’s
0:22:27 tiny wrinkle
0:22:28 grows into a big
0:22:28 ridge
0:22:29 a subtle shift
0:22:30 that turns into
0:22:31 real positive change
0:22:32 for Michael
0:22:33 and for anyone
0:22:34 feeling a little
0:22:35 inspired by his
0:22:36 new giving tactic
0:22:37 and if you’re
0:22:38 feeling newly
0:22:38 inspired to make
0:22:39 a difference
0:22:39 you’re at luck
0:22:40 because you can
0:22:41 take part in our
0:22:42 pods fight poverty
0:22:43 campaign right now
0:22:44 just head to
0:22:45 give directly
0:22:45 dot org
0:22:46 slash happiness
0:22:47 lab to give
0:22:48 what you can
0:22:50 next up is a
0:22:50 story of kindness
0:22:51 from one of my
0:22:52 former Yale students
0:22:53 a fellow psychologist
0:22:54 who is also the
0:22:55 host of an
0:22:55 award-winning
0:22:56 podcast
0:22:57 plus is one of
0:22:58 my dear friends
0:22:59 hey I’m Dr.
0:23:00 Maya Shunker
0:23:01 and I’m the host
0:23:02 of a slight
0:23:03 change of plans
0:23:04 and so Maya
0:23:05 what’s your story
0:23:06 of unexpected
0:23:07 benefits of
0:23:08 kindness
0:23:09 my moment
0:23:10 is actually one
0:23:11 from elementary
0:23:12 school so
0:23:13 we’re going way
0:23:13 back for this one
0:23:14 yeah we’re going
0:23:15 all the way back
0:23:17 I was bullied
0:23:18 a lot as a kid
0:23:19 and
0:23:19 wait really
0:23:20 I’m surprised
0:23:20 by this somehow
0:23:21 I didn’t know
0:23:22 this about you
0:23:23 oh my gosh
0:23:23 oh my god
0:23:24 so many tears
0:23:25 so much
0:23:26 anxiety
0:23:26 wait who
0:23:26 was your
0:23:27 worst bully
0:23:27 mine was
0:23:28 I won’t say
0:23:28 her name
0:23:29 I’ll say
0:23:29 it was
0:23:30 Jessica T
0:23:31 she was
0:23:31 terrible
0:23:32 Jacqueline
0:23:33 Kellen
0:23:33 Lindsay
0:23:34 it was a trio
0:23:36 and Carly too
0:23:36 but these were
0:23:37 girls in my
0:23:37 neighborhood
0:23:38 that
0:23:39 weren’t super
0:23:40 nice to me
0:23:40 and it was
0:23:41 really hard
0:23:42 at the time
0:23:42 I just thought
0:23:43 oh I’m a
0:23:44 deeply flawed
0:23:44 broken person
0:23:45 with some
0:23:46 hindsight
0:23:47 I realized
0:23:47 oh how
0:23:48 interesting
0:23:49 I was
0:23:49 one of
0:23:49 very
0:23:50 very few
0:23:50 kids
0:23:51 of color
0:23:51 in my
0:23:52 whole
0:23:52 school
0:23:52 I wonder
0:23:53 if maybe
0:23:53 that played
0:23:53 a role
0:23:55 but regardless
0:23:55 of what
0:23:55 contributed
0:23:57 to the
0:23:57 meanness
0:23:57 and the
0:23:58 cruelty
0:23:59 I spent
0:24:00 my childhood
0:24:01 feeling
0:24:02 just really
0:24:02 insecure
0:24:03 and really
0:24:03 really anxious
0:24:04 and these
0:24:05 bullies gave
0:24:06 credence to
0:24:06 my worst fears
0:24:07 about myself
0:24:08 was this like
0:24:08 in the
0:24:09 schoolyard
0:24:09 on the bus
0:24:10 like where
0:24:10 did this
0:24:10 happen
0:24:11 oh my god
0:24:12 cafeteria
0:24:13 so Carly
0:24:13 one day
0:24:14 was like
0:24:15 you’re so
0:24:15 ugly
0:24:15 it’s painful
0:24:16 for me
0:24:16 to look
0:24:17 at you
0:24:17 and then
0:24:18 got up
0:24:18 and went
0:24:18 to another
0:24:19 table
0:24:19 there was
0:24:20 another
0:24:20 episode
0:24:21 in
0:24:21 elementary
0:24:22 school
0:24:22 where
0:24:23 the kids
0:24:23 had decided
0:24:24 in advance
0:24:24 that they
0:24:24 were going
0:24:25 to pretend
0:24:25 I was
0:24:26 invisible
0:24:26 that day
0:24:26 so when
0:24:27 I went
0:24:27 to go
0:24:27 drink
0:24:28 from my
0:24:28 milk carton
0:24:28 I lifted
0:24:29 up
0:24:29 they were
0:24:29 like
0:24:30 oh there’s
0:24:30 a milk
0:24:31 carton
0:24:31 floating
0:24:31 in the air
0:24:32 how funny
0:24:32 and now
0:24:33 there’s
0:24:33 a fork
0:24:33 in the air
0:24:34 like oh
0:24:35 my god
0:24:35 I’m like
0:24:36 I can’t believe
0:24:36 they’re pretending
0:24:37 I literally
0:24:37 don’t exist
0:24:38 I want to
0:24:38 like jump
0:24:39 through the
0:24:39 zoom
0:24:39 and hug
0:24:39 you
0:24:39 but wait
0:24:40 how is
0:24:40 this a story
0:24:41 about kindness
0:24:42 I just don’t
0:24:42 see where
0:24:42 this is
0:24:42 okay
0:24:43 sorry
0:24:43 sorry
0:24:45 so I
0:24:45 was bullied
0:24:46 a lot
0:24:46 and
0:24:47 there were
0:24:48 a few
0:24:48 kids
0:24:49 that were
0:24:50 so deeply
0:24:51 kind to me
0:24:52 and weren’t
0:24:53 just nice
0:24:54 behind the
0:24:54 scenes
0:24:55 but were
0:24:56 advocates
0:24:56 for me
0:24:57 when it
0:24:57 really
0:24:57 mattered
0:24:58 so I
0:24:59 remember
0:24:59 there was
0:24:59 this one
0:25:00 girl in
0:25:00 my
0:25:00 neighborhood
0:25:01 named
0:25:02 Adrienne
0:25:03 and we
0:25:03 were on
0:25:03 the school
0:25:03 bus
0:25:04 the school
0:25:04 bus
0:25:04 was brutal
0:25:05 because like
0:25:05 a lot of
0:25:06 the kids
0:25:06 didn’t want
0:25:06 to sit
0:25:06 next to
0:25:07 me
0:25:07 so as a
0:25:07 whole
0:25:07 thing
0:25:08 it’s like
0:25:08 we’d rather
0:25:09 sit five
0:25:09 in a seat
0:25:10 rather than
0:25:10 sit next
0:25:11 to Maya
0:25:11 you know
0:25:12 kids are
0:25:12 terrible
0:25:12 right
0:25:13 so I
0:25:14 remember
0:25:15 some kids
0:25:15 were saying
0:25:16 some nasty
0:25:16 things to
0:25:17 me
0:25:18 and Adrienne
0:25:18 stood up
0:25:19 and was
0:25:19 like
0:25:20 all of
0:25:20 you guys
0:25:20 just
0:25:21 shut up
0:25:22 Maya
0:25:22 is
0:25:23 awesome
0:25:24 I
0:25:24 just
0:25:25 remember
0:25:26 those
0:25:27 words
0:25:27 in little
0:25:27 kid
0:25:28 Maya’s
0:25:28 brain
0:25:29 were
0:25:30 transformative
0:25:31 like I
0:25:31 had a
0:25:32 transcendent
0:25:32 experience
0:25:33 in that
0:25:33 moment
0:25:34 and I
0:25:35 just
0:25:35 remember
0:25:36 being so
0:25:36 moved
0:25:37 by the
0:25:38 fact that
0:25:38 she was
0:25:38 willing
0:25:39 to stand
0:25:40 up and
0:25:40 say these
0:25:41 things in
0:25:41 front of
0:25:41 the people
0:25:42 that I
0:25:42 was really
0:25:42 scared by
0:25:43 because I’m
0:25:43 not exactly
0:25:44 the type
0:25:44 of person
0:25:45 who would
0:25:45 have fought
0:25:46 back in
0:25:46 those moments
0:25:47 and like
0:25:47 really stood
0:25:48 my ground
0:25:48 instead I
0:25:49 thought
0:25:50 oh I
0:25:50 know let
0:25:51 me try to
0:25:51 kill them
0:25:52 with kindness
0:25:52 maybe that
0:25:53 will win over
0:25:53 the bully
0:25:54 and that is
0:25:55 clearly a
0:25:55 very losing
0:25:56 strategy when
0:25:56 it comes to
0:25:57 engaging with
0:25:57 bullies
0:25:57 effectively
0:25:58 so Adrienne
0:25:59 did this
0:25:59 for me
0:26:00 and it
0:26:01 really helped
0:26:01 change the
0:26:02 landscape for
0:26:02 me it’s not
0:26:03 like the
0:26:03 bullies were
0:26:04 suddenly nice
0:26:05 but I now
0:26:06 felt like
0:26:07 Adrienne was
0:26:07 in my
0:26:09 corner and
0:26:09 it changes
0:26:10 your whole
0:26:11 mentality when
0:26:11 you feel like
0:26:12 even one
0:26:13 person is on
0:26:13 your team
0:26:15 and I was
0:26:16 fast forwarding
0:26:17 decades to
0:26:18 think about how
0:26:19 this had
0:26:20 affected me as
0:26:21 a person and
0:26:22 actually Laurie it
0:26:23 was a moment
0:26:24 from my time at
0:26:24 Yale when I was
0:26:25 your undergrad
0:26:26 student there
0:26:28 was a guy in
0:26:29 my dorm room
0:26:30 who was being
0:26:30 bullied because
0:26:31 he was suffering
0:26:33 from depression
0:26:33 and bipolar
0:26:35 disorder and
0:26:37 it didn’t fit
0:26:37 with the kind
0:26:38 of frat boy
0:26:39 machismo
0:26:42 athlete vibe I
0:26:43 guess that his
0:26:43 social group
0:26:45 entertained and
0:26:46 they were so
0:26:47 cruel to him
0:26:47 they were so
0:26:49 mean and I
0:26:49 remember being
0:26:50 like I’m
0:26:51 going to be
0:26:52 Adrienne for
0:26:53 him for
0:26:54 Noah and I
0:26:55 stood up to
0:26:56 those guys and
0:26:57 I was like you
0:26:58 guys suck and
0:26:59 Noah’s amazing
0:27:01 and how dare
0:27:01 you be so
0:27:02 ignorant about
0:27:03 mental illness
0:27:03 and those
0:27:04 struggles I
0:27:04 even remember
0:27:05 at a reunion
0:27:06 I gave this
0:27:08 guy so much
0:27:09 I don’t know
0:27:10 what a kosher
0:27:10 word I can say
0:27:11 on this podcast
0:27:12 is but it was
0:27:12 not a fun
0:27:13 exchange I’ll
0:27:13 say for this
0:27:14 other guy because
0:27:14 I was like how
0:27:15 could you treat
0:27:15 Noah like that
0:27:16 and I actually
0:27:18 just got a text
0:27:18 message from Noah
0:27:19 a couple months
0:27:21 ago saying I
0:27:22 remember in
0:27:22 college when I
0:27:23 was going through
0:27:24 such a hard
0:27:25 time Maya you
0:27:27 were so on
0:27:28 my side and
0:27:28 you were so
0:27:29 nice to me and
0:27:30 it really touched
0:27:31 my heart that I
0:27:32 could pay it
0:27:32 forward like that
0:27:33 because I remember
0:27:34 having been on the
0:27:35 receiving end of
0:27:36 that see I told
0:27:36 you Laurie it
0:27:37 had a happy
0:27:37 ending okay that
0:27:38 was good I’m
0:27:38 glad that happy
0:27:39 ending came up
0:27:40 it wasn’t just
0:27:40 like Maya getting
0:27:41 tortured on the
0:27:41 bus no but I
0:27:42 love this story
0:27:43 because it shows
0:27:44 like Adrienne’s
0:27:45 probably not sitting
0:27:46 there thinking
0:27:47 about like how
0:27:47 she helped this
0:27:48 one person in
0:27:49 elementary school
0:27:50 but you right
0:27:50 now are thinking
0:27:51 about how that
0:27:51 helped you to
0:27:53 this day and a
0:27:54 decade after that
0:27:54 it was also
0:27:55 helping somebody
0:27:56 else like in
0:27:57 college and so
0:27:58 we forget not
0:27:59 just like how
0:28:00 long our kind
0:28:01 events wind up
0:28:01 helping the
0:28:02 people that we
0:28:03 do nice things
0:28:04 for but also
0:28:05 like how many
0:28:06 times these turn
0:28:07 into like these
0:28:07 cascades where
0:28:08 like more nice
0:28:09 things happen over
0:28:10 time absolutely
0:28:11 they have these
0:28:12 beautiful spillover
0:28:13 effects right and
0:28:14 there’s this concept
0:28:16 in psychology called
0:28:17 moral elevation and
0:28:18 it’s basically when
0:28:18 you witness someone
0:28:19 else’s extraordinary
0:28:20 actions so it
0:28:21 could be their
0:28:22 kindness or their
0:28:23 courage or their
0:28:24 self-sacrifice or
0:28:25 their ability to
0:28:26 forgive other
0:28:27 people any
0:28:28 character trait that
0:28:28 you find really
0:28:29 amazing and
0:28:30 impressive that can
0:28:31 lead to this warm
0:28:32 fuzzy feeling in
0:28:33 your chest that
0:28:34 makes you feel like
0:28:35 wow humans are
0:28:35 capable of
0:28:36 extraordinary things
0:28:38 but importantly when
0:28:40 you experience moral
0:28:41 elevation it doesn’t
0:28:43 just feel good it
0:28:43 actually changes your
0:28:45 brain when you see
0:28:46 someone challenge your
0:28:48 understanding of the
0:28:49 world and about what
0:28:50 humans are capable of
0:28:51 it cracks open your
0:28:52 own imagination about
0:28:53 what you are capable
0:28:55 of and I love that
0:28:56 insight because what
0:28:57 it’s done in my own
0:28:58 life is it’s made me a
0:29:00 more keen observer so
0:29:01 when I’m walking in
0:29:03 the coffee shop I’ll
0:29:03 notice someone being
0:29:04 extra nice to the
0:29:06 barista or I’ll notice
0:29:07 that someone went out
0:29:08 of their way to smile
0:29:09 at me when I’m going
0:29:11 on a walk and these
0:29:12 moments feel so good in
0:29:13 the moment but they
0:29:15 also have these long
0:29:17 lasting effects on our
0:29:18 psychology and our view
0:29:19 of others and
0:29:20 importantly of
0:29:21 ourselves and our
0:29:21 potential our
0:29:23 capabilities as people
0:29:24 and so it’s really
0:29:25 enriched my life to see
0:29:26 the world through a
0:29:27 moral beauty lens
0:29:28 this is such a great
0:29:29 example I feel like
0:29:30 especially in winter
0:29:31 when everything’s
0:29:32 feeling so dark and
0:29:33 so glum that like
0:29:34 they’re just these
0:29:35 examples of beauty and
0:29:36 kindness out there that
0:29:37 we can find and that
0:29:38 seeing them isn’t just
0:29:39 like witnessing
0:29:40 something that’s
0:29:40 beautiful it’s also
0:29:41 changing us too
0:29:43 exactly and yes
0:29:44 winter is dark but
0:29:45 also the world like
0:29:46 we’re in a really
0:29:46 dark place right now
0:29:48 it’s very hard to
0:29:49 stay hopeful and
0:29:51 positive and I have
0:29:53 just felt like reminding
0:29:54 myself that actually
0:29:56 humans are so good at
0:29:57 their core because you
0:29:57 can witness these
0:29:59 beautiful acts every
0:29:59 single day and that’s
0:30:01 in my control unlike so
0:30:02 much else that’s
0:30:03 happening in the world
0:30:04 is a wonderful way of
0:30:05 reclaiming my agency
0:30:07 and allowing myself
0:30:08 moments of happiness
0:30:10 moments of joy in
0:30:11 everyday life against
0:30:13 the backdrop of a lot of
0:30:14 suffering in the world
0:30:16 you know and so yeah I’ve
0:30:16 just been grateful for
0:30:17 the gift that we’ve
0:30:19 gotten from science in
0:30:20 the space of moral
0:30:21 elevation and if my
0:30:22 story has given you a
0:30:23 moment of moral
0:30:25 elevation remember that
0:30:25 you can choose to
0:30:26 become an adrian too
0:30:28 you can do that by
0:30:29 joining me and dozens of
0:30:30 other podcasters as
0:30:32 part of the pods fight
0:30:33 poverty campaign why
0:30:34 not donate five bucks
0:30:36 right now by heading to
0:30:37 give directly dot org
0:30:39 slash happiness lab
0:30:40 that’s give directly dot
0:30:42 org slash happiness lab
0:30:44 it’s time for a break but
0:30:45 when we return I’ll get
0:30:47 to share my own story of
0:30:48 the power of giving and
0:30:49 how four words that I
0:30:50 quickly scribbled nearly
0:30:52 20 years ago said a
0:30:53 little girl on the path to
0:30:54 becoming an aerospace
0:30:56 engineer the happiness lab
0:30:57 will be right back
0:31:03 i’m jen hatmaker and on for
0:31:04 the love we talk about life
0:31:06 in the middle years the
0:31:08 mess the meaning and
0:31:10 everything in between follow
0:31:11 and listen wherever you get
0:31:12 your podcasts
0:31:22 welcome back to the happiness
0:31:24 lab special giving tuesday
0:31:26 episode today we’re
0:31:27 exploring just how much we
0:31:28 underestimate the
0:31:30 psychological power of small
0:31:32 acts of generosity and the
0:31:33 next story is one that
0:31:34 really hits home for me
0:31:36 because the person in this
0:31:37 story doing all that
0:31:38 underestimating of the power
0:31:41 of giving was me so in
0:31:43 2008 i was six years old
0:31:47 this is avery miller and i
0:31:49 didn’t know too much you
0:31:50 know about the world i
0:31:51 suppose but i knew that i
0:31:52 wanted to be an astronaut
0:31:54 because i’d read books about
0:31:55 them i’d seen them on tv and
0:31:56 my parents were very
0:31:58 encouraging of all of that
0:31:59 and my mom realized there
0:32:01 was an event called world
0:32:03 science festival the world
0:32:04 science festival is a
0:32:05 multimedia science
0:32:07 education organization that
0:32:08 began as an annual event in
0:32:09 new york city to make
0:32:11 science fun and accessible to
0:32:12 the general public think
0:32:14 panels and talks interactive
0:32:15 exhibits and kid-friendly
0:32:17 games avery’s mom thought
0:32:18 her daughter would love it
0:32:20 so the millers decided to
0:32:21 take the four-hour trek from
0:32:23 their home in boston to new
0:32:25 york city so we went to the
0:32:26 festival and there’s a lot of
0:32:28 really cool outside stuff and
0:32:29 you know the typical kid
0:32:31 activities but my mom was like
0:32:32 you know i think avery would
0:32:34 really love going to some
0:32:36 talks which an insane thing to
0:32:38 think about a six-year-old but
0:32:41 that’s my mom so we went to
0:32:43 quite a few talks but i think
0:32:45 they were mostly men so not
0:32:47 really role models that’s when
0:32:48 avery stumbled on a panel that
0:32:49 would change her life forever
0:32:52 it was called cool jobs where
0:32:53 scientists shared the cool
0:32:55 questions they explored and the
0:32:56 fun places they got to work
0:32:59 there was a disney imagineer a
0:33:01 forensics expert who used science
0:33:03 to solve crimes and an early
0:33:05 career psychologist whose name
0:33:06 you might recognize if you’re a
0:33:08 fan of the show she spends a lot
0:33:10 of time thinking about how we
0:33:13 think and how we play and how we
0:33:15 fall in love by hiking through
0:33:17 the jungles of puerto rico watching
0:33:19 monkeys please a warm welcome for
0:33:21 dr laurie santos
0:33:25 hello everyone thanks for having me
0:33:27 today so i’m going to tell you a
0:33:29 little bit about a job that i bet
0:33:30 many of you are thinking about and
0:33:31 that’s the kind of job that’s
0:33:33 involved with working with
0:33:36 animals so fun fact long before i
0:33:38 began studying happiness i spent a
0:33:39 lot of my early career trying to
0:33:41 understand the human mind by
0:33:43 studying the cognitive abilities of
0:33:46 monkeys back in 2008 i was asked to
0:33:48 talk about that primate work on the
0:33:50 cool jobs panel at the world science
0:33:52 festival the organizers of the panel
0:33:53 assumed it would be of interest to
0:33:55 college students thinking about their
0:33:57 future careers but what we didn’t
0:33:58 expect was to have so many little
0:34:01 kids in the audience little kids who
0:34:02 were apparently very impressed that
0:34:03 there were jobs where you could hang
0:34:06 out with monkeys little kids just like
0:34:08 avery i was like you get to be
0:34:10 outside you get to do science and that
0:34:14 was sort of a mind-blowing moment of
0:34:16 like oh my god there’s someone like me
0:34:17 who’s doing all this really cool stuff
0:34:21 and my mom again being really cool was
0:34:23 like well let’s go talk to her avery’s
0:34:25 mom wasn’t the only audience member to
0:34:27 have the idea as the new york times
0:34:29 would later report quote after the
0:34:32 event dr santos was mobbed by a group
0:34:34 of children curious about what she
0:34:37 calls monkey magic tricks i spent over
0:34:39 an hour after that panel sitting on
0:34:40 stage talking with kids about my work
0:34:43 and one of those kids was an eager
0:34:45 little girl named avery so i went up
0:34:47 and i think i told you all about how i
0:34:49 wanted to be an astronaut and how i
0:34:51 wanted to go to mit because you know
0:34:53 growing up in boston if you want to do
0:34:56 science you want to go to mit and we
0:34:57 didn’t have anything for you to sign
0:35:00 except for the back of the ticket on the
0:35:01 email my mom printed out
0:35:05 so you signed it i have it here if you
0:35:06 want to see it oh my gosh can you hold
0:35:08 it up yeah oh my gosh with like a monkey
0:35:14 drawing that’s yeah so i drew monkeys on
0:35:17 it as you can see which i’m sure my mom
0:35:19 told me not to but you wrote have fun at
0:35:22 mit love laurie and i was like this is the
0:35:24 coolest thing ever a scientist thinks i
0:35:27 can be a scientist we framed it and then
0:35:30 i put it on my desk and then i guess i
0:35:33 never moved it off my desk i mean like i
0:35:35 look at it all the time in high school i’d
0:35:38 sit there and do my homework and so it’s
0:35:39 like you know what this means i can do it
0:35:42 you know as much as i hated chemistry at
0:35:43 the time okay i gotta get the chemistry
0:35:46 done because i’m gonna go to mit so it was
0:35:48 just this constant little reminder that
0:35:50 like i could do that i mean it’s so
0:35:52 funny i sign lots of things for lots of
0:35:54 folks and just the idea that they would
0:35:55 keep them is really cool but also just that
0:35:57 it turned into an inspiration for you
0:36:01 i failed a class almost failed a class in
0:36:03 the eighth grade and it was science and i was
0:36:08 like that means i can’t do it because if
0:36:10 everyone looks at you as the science kid and
0:36:12 you’re going around failing science classes
0:36:15 it’s hard so i looked at it and i was
0:36:17 like you know what someone says that i
0:36:19 can do it i saw someone else do it you
0:36:20 know there were a lot of people rooting me
0:36:24 on but i had this thing from such a young
0:36:26 age one person telling you you can do it
0:36:27 when you didn’t even know that was an
0:36:31 option is perhaps more meaningful so yeah
0:36:35 it was a big deal to me then it’s still a
0:36:37 big deal to me now i had it on my desk all
0:36:39 through college all the dorms i lived in
0:36:42 i have it now that i live on my own it’s
0:36:44 just always lived on my desk it’s always
0:36:46 just been there i also have a sally ride
0:36:48 picture though so you’re up there with her
0:36:51 that’s amazing sounds like you wound up
0:36:53 going to college did you end up going to
0:36:56 mit or what happened yeah so um by senior
0:36:58 year i realized that i did not want to go
0:37:01 to mit mit’s great but it wasn’t the right
0:37:05 fit i ended up going to purdue i became an
0:37:07 aerospace engineer wait like mind-boggling
0:37:09 like you became an aerospace engineer
0:37:12 that’s so cool i reconnected with avery and
0:37:14 learned about her story when she sent me an
0:37:16 email out of the blue thanking me for being
0:37:19 such an inspiration to her as she wrote in
0:37:21 her letter you took the time to speak to me
0:37:24 learn my name and just made me feel like no
0:37:27 matter what i could do it thank you for being
0:37:30 an inspiration in six-year-old me’s life i
0:37:32 know that you carved the way for this field to
0:37:35 be one that women like me can thrive in i mean
0:37:40 wow i had no idea that scribbling those four
0:37:42 little words nearly 20 years ago would have had
0:37:45 such an impact on someone’s life i also didn’t
0:37:48 realize that those words would ripple into the
0:37:51 next generation of scientists too i think one
0:37:53 of the things that i learned and i really
0:37:55 appreciated when i met you when i was young
0:37:57 was that you didn’t talk to me like i was a
0:38:00 little kid i never felt like someone was
0:38:04 talking down to me which i think in stem we have a
0:38:06 tendency to do when people don’t understand stuff
0:38:09 i think it was einstein though i could be misquoting
0:38:11 who said if you can’t explain it to a five-year-old you don’t
0:38:14 understand it there’s something to be said for
0:38:16 approaching someone on their level that’s how
0:38:18 people can hold on and be like wow i really do want to
0:38:21 learn more it definitely makes me think about how
0:38:24 i’m giving my time because like i mentor middle
0:38:26 schoolers and i’m like maybe one day one of these
0:38:28 middle schoolers will reach out and you know same
0:38:31 sort of thing of like oh you impacted me so
0:38:34 who knows look at you the six-year-old has become
0:38:37 an adult now i know i mean one of the reasons this
0:38:39 story is so compelling for me also just that like i
0:38:41 affected someone who’s so cool and doing such
0:38:43 cool stuff now it’s just amazing the fact that
0:38:46 someone who speaks to john green thinks i’m
0:38:49 cool is possibly the coolest thing ever i’m sure he
0:38:52 would think you’re cool too but i mean it’s just
0:38:55 like you just have these short interactions in life
0:38:57 where you don’t necessarily realize how much you’re
0:39:00 affecting people and i think if you can have those
0:39:03 interactions in a way that are like positive or encouraging
0:39:05 we just like don’t know the ripple effect of the kind of
0:39:08 thing that we can do to other people and so it was just
0:39:11 such a reminder of like oh my gosh i can have this like
0:39:14 incredibly long-standing like you know 20 year ish
0:39:16 positive effect and i might not be realizing i could do that
0:39:20 right now and also the fact that i can reconnect with you
0:39:23 after 20 years and it still be something meaningful i’m curious was
0:39:26 there a moment that you decided to reach back out like was
0:39:29 there like a catalyst of why you decided to reach out when you
0:39:32 did i’m hoping to go back to school
0:39:35 eventually so i’ve been studying for exams and
0:39:39 sometimes you have just a day where you’re looking at your exam
0:39:42 book and you’re like there is no way that i can keep doing
0:39:44 this there’s no way i can keep answering problems
0:39:49 and i looked at the the note which again sits on my desk all the time so i’m
0:39:52 looking at it and i’m like you know i should really reach out to her and tell
0:39:53 her that this is impactful
0:39:57 this really just like blew my mind and really just even this conversation i feel
0:40:00 like my face is going to hurt from smiling after talking about this
0:40:02 me as well which is a great thing
0:40:08 avery’s story is a powerful example of how a few simple words can shape someone’s life
0:40:13 in unimaginable ways but it also shows how absolutely great it feels to be the person
0:40:19 who gives that small act of kindness and yet even when we know these small gestures matter
0:40:26 most of us still struggle to actually do them we put off reaching out we delay helping we wait for
0:40:31 the right time to give why do we procrastinate on doing the very thing that will make us and other
0:40:38 people feel so good to find out i tagged in our final podcast host guest a behavioral scientist
0:40:43 who has studied this exact problem katie do you want to start by introducing yourself i’d be delighted
0:40:47 my name is katie milkman and i am a professor at the wharton school
0:40:50 host of the podcast choiceology and author of the book how to change
0:40:55 so katie we’ve just heard all these amazing things that happen when people are nice to each other and
0:41:00 do nice things for each other including with money we’ve also just heard not just what happens to the
0:41:05 people who receive these wonderful things but also what happens to you the donor in terms of your
0:41:10 happiness and how great you feel but the problem is that our minds are stupid and sometimes we can
0:41:15 know all this stuff and still not put it into practice this is the kind of thing that you study right
0:41:19 yes although i wouldn’t say our minds are stupid i think our minds are incredible but they’re
0:41:25 constantly taking shortcuts and they’re sort of wired for situations that don’t always optimize
0:41:31 our current environment in the modern era so like the mind is amazing i don’t want to denigrate the
0:41:36 mind okay yeah no no diss to the mind great you know we’re walking around really smart primates built
0:41:41 the internet all this stuff but we sometimes forget the importance of doing for other people like when
0:41:45 it comes to our social connection i think this is a spot where we really get it wrong yeah no absolutely
0:41:51 we don’t anticipate how good it will feel to you know engage in conversations engage in gift giving just
0:41:56 be kind to others in a wide variety of ways we don’t realize how much that will actually generate
0:42:02 happiness for us our minds are also stupid in that we just like forget stuff like i’m guessing a lot of
0:42:07 people right now are like oh my gosh this is a great opportunity to give directly but like you
0:42:12 actually have to do that and like forgetfulness and friction is bad that’s right yeah follow through
0:42:19 is one of the main barriers to change that i have studied like we need to remind people we need to
0:42:23 catch them in a moment when they can take action and actually this relates to some research i did a
0:42:28 number of years ago related to giving so this was a project led by amanda chuan who’s an amazing
0:42:32 professor at michigan state and also with my colleague here judd kessler where we were able to get
0:42:39 data from the university of pennsylvania’s hospital system on asks they made to pass patients to give
0:42:44 right so you’ve had an experience with the university of pennsylvania hospital system you were
0:42:49 here inpatient for some sort of service or treatment you have to stay overnight right that’s kind of a big
0:42:53 deal or you’re checked into the hospital so you’re probably feeling a lot of gratitude right now and
0:42:58 you have an opportunity when the university asks would you give to this hospital system you have an
0:43:05 opportunity to express that gratitude the data we got allowed us to look at whether or not those mailings
0:43:10 came right away or at a time delay because they send them in batches every few months so if the batch
0:43:15 send happens to occur just a couple weeks after you leave the hospital you’re going to get it real
0:43:20 quickly but if it happens a few months later well then it’s going to be a long time after your
0:43:24 inpatient stay that you’re going to be asked would you be willing to reciprocate and make it a donation
0:43:29 and what was interesting is that we found a pretty steep decay so if we hit you right after you’ve
0:43:34 had this positive experience you’re much more likely to give you’re feeling still that warmth and gratitude
0:43:41 and remembering how meaningful it was to be taken care of whereas if a little time passes the hot state
0:43:47 the sort of warmth and the reciprocity feelings those positive feelings that generate the decision to give
0:43:53 those are what’s decaying and that also presumably suggests that you’re not going to feel as good
0:44:00 about making that reciprocal gesture if your strong feelings have dissipated and you wait so one of the
0:44:05 things i think that teaches us about giving is generally when we are remembering when we’re in that
0:44:10 hot state when we realize how good it will make us feel like take action right away don’t let that moment slip
0:44:15 and i think more similarly in in so many parts of your life like when you’re feeling gratitude to
0:44:20 someone or when you’ve had a really positive experience and you want to make sure you don’t
0:44:26 forget to tell someone you you know you were a great professor laurie and i’m so grateful for this thing you
0:44:33 did or you know thank you for mentoring me um whatever it is express that gratitude immediately because
0:44:38 you’re going to forget if you let the moment pass and i think you know one of the things i’ve studied in
0:44:43 in my research in other domains is just that our motivation in general waxes and wanes like
0:44:48 over time right we years ago did an episode together laurie about some of my work with heng chen dai
0:44:53 of ucla on the fresh start effect that there are these moments when we’re more motivated to make a
0:44:57 change in our lives and i think that’s just part of a bigger process like we don’t walk around the
0:45:02 world with like constant flat states of emotion and motivation we’re moving all over the place and
0:45:08 capitalizing on the hot state feelings is important to doing the things that are good for us in the long
0:45:11 run that are good for our relationships and our happiness because whenever we do it we’re going
0:45:15 to feel good doing that right in your fresh start work where you look and when when do people start
0:45:20 exercising whatever you get the exercise habit going that’s going to have benefits for you whenever
0:45:25 you actually get the gift done the kind words said you’re going to experience benefit but if you wait
0:45:30 and the motivation goes away then you’re never going to wind up getting those benefits exactly so
0:45:33 if someone’s listening to this right now and they’re thinking oh my gosh i want to give to give
0:45:39 directly how do they lock it in do they like pause the episode and just go do it right now do not wait
0:45:44 that’s right because that feeling will decay faster than you realize and so this is the moment to do it
0:45:49 don’t wait don’t delay you think you’re going to do it tomorrow but you won’t so do it right now
0:45:51 okay we’re going to do a pause
0:46:05 so hopefully during that little audio break some folks paused the episode and actually gave to give
0:46:10 directly but i’m guessing some folks maybe couldn’t do it immediately are there other social science hacks
0:46:16 we can use if we’re motivated right now but we can actually hit like send immediately yeah absolutely
0:46:21 maybe you’re driving right now but you can talk to a virtual assistant in your phone you might ask it to
0:46:26 put a calendar alert in your calendar for later today when you know you might have a moment to remind
0:46:32 you to follow through and choose a specific time you could also ask that virtual assistant to send a ping
0:46:38 a text or an email to someone who can hold you accountable and check in and say hey please ask me
0:46:44 when you see me partner roommate friend uh tomorrow if i’ve followed through on my pledge to give to give
0:46:49 directly we know that social accountability and making concrete plans with reminders are two ways
0:46:55 we can hold our future self to account for the things we want to get done and i especially love the social
0:46:59 accountability suggestion because that gives us a little bit of social connection and maybe just maybe
0:47:04 that partner friend roommate might also donate to give directly and get a little happiness boost
0:47:11 i love that perfect yes ask them to both nag you and to give themselves love this katie thank you so
0:47:15 much for helping us try to figure out how we can use our biases to feel better and do better in the
0:47:20 world thanks so much for having me and for putting together this wonderful compilation i love give
0:47:25 directly and i’m really excited about it even small acts of generosity a moment of encouragement
0:47:32 a few kind words 10 bucks donated to a good cause can have incredible ripple effects and the sooner you
0:47:38 act on a charitable impulse the sooner you’ll experience that positive impact so go ahead and
0:47:45 join the pods fight poverty campaign by donating at give directly.org slash happiness lab that’s give
0:47:51 directly.org slash happiness lab and if you’re not in a position to give that’s fine maybe you’d consider
0:47:56 sharing our campaign with your friends and colleagues just use the hashtag pods fight poverty to raise
0:48:03 awareness fight extreme poverty and unwrap a little gift of happiness for yourself too the happiness lab
0:48:09 will continue in the holiday spirit for the rest of the year next week we’ll be tackling your holiday
0:48:17 happiness woes with a very hilarious special guest actor and podcaster rain wilson that’s all next time
0:48:20 on the happiness lab with me dr laurie santos
0:48:35 this is an iheart podcast guaranteed human
According to the science, it really is better to give than receive. Donating a dollar; sharing a kind word or lending someone a hand changes lives, but can also hugely boost your happiness. So we’re teaming up with other podcasts from Hidden Brain to Revisionist History to ask you to give to a charity helping some of the poorest people around. We’re calling it #PodsFightPoverty.
Go to givedirectly.org/happinesslab right now and give whatever you can.
Even a small donation will make you feel good and have a much larger impact on the world than you thought possible. To help inspire you, this special episode examines the science of giving and shares stories of heartwarming and impactful acts of kindness.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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