The Rise, Fall & Reset of The Fintech Industry

0:00:04 2018, 2019 in fintech was late spring.
0:00:06 You get into 2020 and COVID,
0:00:09 and that was utter insanity of a story.
0:00:11 Like 25% of all venture dollars in that period
0:00:12 went into fintech, Richard.
0:00:13 Wow, 25%.
0:00:15 The stat after that is not a good stat,
0:00:18 which is starting in like the second half of 2022,
0:00:20 like basically 0% of venture dollars went into fintech.
0:00:21 That’s the drought, maybe.
0:00:24 Yeah, yeah, fintech winter was the second half of 2022,
0:00:28 most of 23, and 24 things started to thaw a little bit.
0:00:30 And like now we’re very much back in the spring.
0:00:31 It turns out the biggest use case for AI
0:00:33 is fraudsters committing fraud
0:00:34 against financial services companies.
0:00:38 Financial fraud is growing at like 18 to 20% a year,
0:00:40 which is insane, and it’s already a huge market.
0:00:42 I mean, the cattle win long-term,
0:00:44 but the mouse is winning right now.
0:00:46 At the peak of the boom,
0:00:50 roughly 25% of all venture dollars were flowing into fintech.
0:00:53 Two years later, that number was close to zero.
0:00:56 Today, with A16Z general partner David Haber
0:00:58 and Zach Paré, co-founder and CEO of Plaid,
0:01:00 we trace what happened between those extremes
0:01:02 and why the market is heating up again.
0:01:04 We look back at how the industry moved
0:01:05 through its boom and bust cycle
0:01:08 from the explosive growth of 2020 and 2021
0:01:09 to the freeze that followed,
0:01:11 and where things stand now as activity returns.
0:01:15 We dig into the biggest forces shaping fintech today.
0:01:17 AI’s impact on fraud and underwriting,
0:01:20 the shift towards deposits and full-stack financial products,
0:01:23 incumbents finally adopting outside software,
0:01:26 and embedded finance showing up far beyond traditional banking.
0:01:32 Zach, David, we did this podcast, I believe, seven years ago,
0:01:34 and it’s great to have the gang back together.
0:01:35 Thanks for joining.
0:01:36 Thank you for having us.
0:01:37 Great to be here.
0:01:39 Of course, a lot has happened since the last conversation
0:01:40 in our personal lives,
0:01:42 and a lot has happened in fintech more broadly.
0:01:44 I was listening to the episode that we did
0:01:45 the last time we spoke,
0:01:47 and we were talking about what has changed in fintech
0:01:50 from early 2010s to just before 2020,
0:01:52 and I’m curious if we could just sort of check in
0:01:53 or reflect back.
0:01:56 Since the last time we spoke to now,
0:01:59 would have been some of the major themes in fintech?
0:02:00 Catch us off.
0:02:02 If someone was in a coma after listening to the last episode
0:02:03 and just woke up and said,
0:02:06 hey, what’s changed in fintech,
0:02:07 what would we say?
0:02:08 Let’s see.
0:02:09 So last time we talked,
0:02:10 we just call it 2018, 2019.
0:02:11 Is that right?
0:02:11 Yes.
0:02:12 Yeah.
0:02:13 So let’s see.
0:02:13 A lot.
0:02:15 There have been like a bunch of different eras,
0:02:17 or like maybe we can think of it as like almost seasons
0:02:18 in some sense.
0:02:23 2018, 2019 in fintech was,
0:02:24 I guess, kind of late spring.
0:02:26 A lot of really good growth.
0:02:27 Like the industry had a name.
0:02:28 The name probably came about.
0:02:30 I actually think that, David, you created the name.
0:02:32 But no one will give you credit,
0:02:32 but I will give you credit.
0:02:34 I think you created the name in like 2015.
0:02:36 But we now had a name for this industry.
0:02:38 We had gone past like, oh, some people
0:02:40 are maybe building financial services products too.
0:02:41 Like it is an industry
0:02:42 and there are a lot of things being built.
0:02:45 We started to see the million flowers bloom
0:02:46 to really overextend this analogy.
0:02:49 The million flowers bloom from call it like 2014, 2015
0:02:52 up until 2019, 2020.
0:02:55 Like zillions of first time,
0:02:56 hey, can I take this thing
0:02:57 outside of a physical bank branch
0:02:58 and deliver it to a consumer digitally?
0:03:00 So you saw applications like Robinhood
0:03:02 come up and grow incredibly well.
0:03:03 You see all sorts of Neobank,
0:03:05 Neobank for X or Y or Z sub market.
0:03:06 Those are everywhere.
0:03:08 You saw crypto,
0:03:10 like the first crypto apps really start to emerge
0:03:11 and grow a lot.
0:03:13 And then kind of from 2019,
0:03:15 you get into 2020 and COVID.
0:03:18 And that was just utter insanity of a story.
0:03:21 The first few months of 2020 were totally normal.
0:03:23 Then you get into early COVID
0:03:25 where everything froze.
0:03:27 Basically every business kind of locked up,
0:03:28 including all the fintech companies.
0:03:31 But within two, two and a half months,
0:03:33 you then had this total inversion of fintech.
0:03:34 So you went from late spring
0:03:37 to like big EDM pumping summer really fast.
0:03:39 Like the EDM music turned on very loudly,
0:03:40 very quickly.
0:03:42 So you just had this insane growth period for fintech
0:03:44 from kind of mid 2020
0:03:47 through kind of like the end of 2021
0:03:49 and even into early 2022.
0:03:51 And yes, a lot of new companies formed,
0:03:53 but every investor,
0:03:55 whether venture or public markets
0:03:56 or whatever it was,
0:03:57 wanted to push money into fintech.
0:03:59 And so you had just this huge boom in funding,
0:04:00 tons of new stuff grew.
0:04:02 It was like really fun and very chaotic time.
0:04:04 Honestly, a hard time to manage
0:04:05 because the feature chase,
0:04:06 the things that we had to build
0:04:06 were going so rapidly.
0:04:08 I think like 25% of all venture dollars
0:04:09 in that period went into fintech,
0:04:09 which is insane.
0:04:11 Wow, 25%.
0:04:12 It’s a crazy stat.
0:04:13 Actually, I think it’s a great stat.
0:04:15 The stat after that is not a good stat,
0:04:17 which is starting in like the second half of 2022,
0:04:19 like basically 0% of venture dollars
0:04:20 went into fintech.
0:04:21 That was the drought maybe.
0:04:21 Yeah, yeah.
0:04:24 So summer went into a very, very short fall.
0:04:26 So that was kind of like mid-2022
0:04:28 and then immediately into winter.
0:04:31 And fintech winter was the second half of 2022,
0:04:36 most of 23 and 24 things started to thaw a little bit.
0:04:38 And like now we’re very much back into spring.
0:04:38 Yep.
0:04:39 Different format,
0:04:42 but it’s been a fun cycle of the seasons.
0:04:43 Totally.
0:04:45 I think even to describe maybe
0:04:46 what drove some of the seasons,
0:04:49 the rate cycle was a big part of that
0:04:51 as like a, from like a macro perspective,
0:04:53 having very low rates,
0:04:54 you know, kind of drove zero.
0:04:55 Obviously not unique to fintech,
0:04:57 but a lot of technology broadly,
0:04:59 but certainly a lot of lending volume in the space
0:05:01 grew massively in those periods.
0:05:02 The one benefit that I think
0:05:04 has shown up more recently in fintech
0:05:06 in the thaw period is that rates went up
0:05:08 and it sort of shifted the mix of revenues
0:05:09 for many of these fintech companies
0:05:10 from lending driven,
0:05:13 kind of origination oriented stuff to deposits.
0:05:16 So many of these fintech companies decided,
0:05:17 I forget the exact timing,
0:05:19 but to go kind of full stack.
0:05:21 So you saw fintech companies like SoFi,
0:05:22 you know, buy banks,
0:05:23 Lending Club,
0:05:25 I think Square got an ILC charter,
0:05:26 Robinhood, Mercury.
0:05:27 Many of these companies are generating
0:05:30 very significant percentages of their revenue
0:05:32 and profits today from deposit flows
0:05:33 as rates have gone up.
0:05:35 And so that I think has helped
0:05:37 thaw the market to some degree more recently.
0:05:38 Usually, yeah.
0:05:39 In 2018, 2019,
0:05:41 fintech was a startup industry.
0:05:43 Having gone through this entire cycle,
0:05:45 yeah, some ups, some downs,
0:05:46 but a lot of maturation,
0:05:48 a lot of expansion.
0:05:51 We’ve ended now with fintech is,
0:05:51 in my opinion,
0:05:53 synonymous with financial services.
0:05:53 I agree.
0:05:56 And it goes beyond just financial services as well.
0:05:57 So you’ve seen a few themes emerge.
0:06:00 One thing that we said for a long time
0:06:01 that Andreessen Horvitz also likes to say
0:06:03 is that every company is a fintech company.
0:06:06 And that was kind of quite common from 2018 onward.
0:06:10 Now you see the emergence of embedded finance.
0:06:13 So some applied customers are like Ford and John Deere.
0:06:14 And these companies that like,
0:06:17 yes, they do have captive financial services
0:06:17 embedded within them,
0:06:18 but you do not think of them
0:06:19 as financial services companies.
0:06:21 Or large billers,
0:06:23 or it’s expanded quite a lot.
0:06:24 And then you see the banks themselves.
0:06:25 Historically, they said,
0:06:27 oh, we need to be fintech companies too.
0:06:29 Now they’re saying we are the biggest fintech companies.
0:06:31 Like we invest heavily in technology.
0:06:33 And so you’ve seen the startup industry
0:06:35 now become mainstream
0:06:37 and the firmament of financial services,
0:06:39 but also powering experiences
0:06:40 well beyond financial services.
0:06:42 Let’s go deeper into where we are today
0:06:44 and where we’re going,
0:06:47 given that we’re kind of in a exciting period.
0:06:48 Like, is it still early
0:06:51 in terms of a lot of things to be built
0:06:52 and some spaces you’re excited about?
0:06:54 Maybe Zach, you take the first step.
0:06:56 Planned ourselves have gone through a few phases
0:06:58 and we’re lucky that we have this really broad view
0:07:01 of what’s happening in fintech companies.
0:07:02 I’m going to keep calling it fintech,
0:07:03 but at this point,
0:07:05 realize that I mean financial services plus plus.
0:07:07 So we have this really broad view
0:07:09 of what’s going on in fintech.
0:07:13 And like the things that we’re seeing today
0:07:15 are very different and much more varied
0:07:16 than they were before.
0:07:18 So V1 of Plaid was,
0:07:20 how do we create access for everyone?
0:07:22 And I would say largely the fintech industry
0:07:23 was focused on the same thing.
0:07:25 So instead of making you walk into a bank branch
0:07:26 to open a bank account,
0:07:28 how can you open a bank account on your mobile app?
0:07:30 Instead of making you carry money
0:07:31 and go to an exchange,
0:07:32 when you’re trying to cross a border,
0:07:34 how can we create a digital way
0:07:35 to do remittances
0:07:36 so you can actually move money across the border
0:07:37 a little bit more easily
0:07:40 and apply that across kind of every subsect,
0:07:41 basically every product
0:07:42 that banks were building at the time.
0:07:44 We’ve solved the access problem.
0:07:45 Not completely,
0:07:47 not in every little niche,
0:07:48 but for the most part,
0:07:49 we as a collective industry
0:07:50 have solved the access problem.
0:07:51 So I grew up in a small town,
0:07:53 only one bank in our town.
0:07:54 And if you didn’t happen
0:07:55 to be a member of that bank,
0:07:57 you couldn’t get a loan easily.
0:07:59 Now, if you live in that same town,
0:07:59 you just go online
0:08:00 and you apply for a mortgage
0:08:02 and you get 30 mortgage offers in an hour,
0:08:03 or you can do it with Rocket
0:08:05 and be done in five minutes.
0:08:06 And these are awesome experiences.
0:08:07 That said,
0:08:08 what we’ve done is
0:08:09 we’ve taken traditional financial services
0:08:10 and we’ve made it digital.
0:08:12 We haven’t necessarily made it excellent.
0:08:14 That’s like the next horizon for us.
0:08:15 And so a lot of things
0:08:17 that we’ve been investing in now
0:08:18 are things like credit scoring.
0:08:20 How do we make credit scoring more logical
0:08:21 and something that a consumer can understand?
0:08:23 If you get a new job
0:08:24 and your income goes up,
0:08:25 but your expenses don’t go up,
0:08:26 you are a better loan risk.
0:08:28 However, that doesn’t show up
0:08:28 in your credit file
0:08:30 for like many, many years
0:08:31 because your credit file
0:08:33 is a long history of your repayments.
0:08:35 It’s not necessarily indicative
0:08:36 of your free cash flow.
0:08:38 And so that is the next horizon
0:08:39 that a lot of the FinTech companies
0:08:40 that I’m seeing
0:08:41 are starting to solve.
0:08:42 So that’s kind of one big area.
0:08:44 It’s kind of solving those endemic problems
0:08:45 that are long lasting,
0:08:46 things like fraud,
0:08:47 things like credit scoring,
0:08:48 so on and so forth.
0:08:49 The second is
0:08:50 making financial services
0:08:51 really easily available
0:08:53 in places that you might not have
0:08:54 otherwise thought it to be.
0:08:56 So putting BNPL on
0:08:57 kind of everything.
0:08:58 Yeah.
0:08:59 Or issuing a card
0:09:00 kind of everywhere
0:09:01 or issuing a wallet
0:09:02 kind of everywhere.
0:09:04 And so now we’re entering this
0:09:05 like FinTech is everywhere.
0:09:06 Not every company
0:09:06 is a FinTech company,
0:09:07 but like every consumer
0:09:08 is surrounded by FinTech
0:09:09 and all the places
0:09:09 they might want to go.
0:09:11 And the future horizons
0:09:12 are always looking
0:09:12 at the next few things
0:09:13 that are happening.
0:09:14 Like we look at AI
0:09:16 and agentic financial services
0:09:16 and right now
0:09:17 that’s mostly hype
0:09:18 and people talking about it.
0:09:19 And there are a few
0:09:20 interesting use cases,
0:09:21 but fast forward two years
0:09:23 and the way that you get a mortgage
0:09:23 is going to be talking
0:09:25 to an AI application
0:09:27 because that is
0:09:28 just the most efficient,
0:09:29 fastest way to do it.
0:09:30 So that’s been a fascinating one to watch
0:09:31 and then seeing what’s going on
0:09:32 with stables is,
0:09:32 of course,
0:09:33 fascinating as well.
0:09:34 So lots more to come.
0:09:36 On that note,
0:09:37 is crypto basically
0:09:37 just been tech?
0:09:38 Or, you know,
0:09:39 people said
0:09:40 there’s the new version
0:09:41 of the new internet.
0:09:42 Maybe hopefully it still happens,
0:09:43 but in terms of where it is right now,
0:09:45 is it mostly just
0:09:46 a subset of FinTech?
0:09:47 Well, David,
0:09:47 you’re an investor,
0:09:49 so you probably know better than me.
0:09:49 My take is
0:09:51 sometimes.
0:09:52 Ultimately,
0:09:53 I don’t think that consumers
0:09:56 change all that much
0:09:56 over time.
0:09:58 And so the kind of things
0:09:59 that a consumer
0:10:00 would want to do
0:10:01 five years ago
0:10:02 are similar to the kinds
0:10:03 of things that they might
0:10:04 want to do today,
0:10:05 but the form factor
0:10:06 in which they can do it
0:10:07 is very different.
0:10:08 So, you know,
0:10:09 five years ago,
0:10:10 a consumer might want
0:10:10 to speculate.
0:10:11 And, you know,
0:10:12 you can speculate on gold,
0:10:13 you can speculate on a few
0:10:14 of these other things,
0:10:16 and Bitcoin and other coins
0:10:17 made it very simple
0:10:18 for consumers to speculate.
0:10:18 So great,
0:10:19 you can pull up an app,
0:10:20 you can speculate on things.
0:10:21 Speculation continues.
0:10:23 The form factor has changed.
0:10:25 Another thing that consumers
0:10:25 like to do
0:10:27 is make predictions.
0:10:28 So, you know,
0:10:28 in the past,
0:10:29 you might make a bet
0:10:30 with some friends,
0:10:32 now you might go
0:10:33 on CalShare Poly market
0:10:34 and, you know,
0:10:35 enter prediction markets,
0:10:36 or you might do that
0:10:37 via Robinhood
0:10:38 or whatever it is.
0:10:39 Other things that consumers
0:10:40 like to do are like,
0:10:41 you know,
0:10:41 spend money,
0:10:42 save, invest,
0:10:43 so on and so forth.
0:10:44 And in as much as
0:10:45 consumer behavior
0:10:45 doesn’t change,
0:10:46 it’s a question of like
0:10:47 how and where does
0:10:48 crypto and fintech
0:10:49 fit into the existing
0:10:50 set of consumer behaviors.
0:10:52 So I think if you look at,
0:10:52 again,
0:10:53 what a bank does,
0:10:54 like they’re roughly tailored
0:10:55 to what consumers want.
0:10:56 Consumers want to
0:10:57 save money,
0:10:57 invest,
0:10:58 get loans,
0:10:58 so on and so forth.
0:11:01 And I think the wisest
0:11:01 product development strategy
0:11:02 is to kind of like
0:11:04 take the things
0:11:05 that consumers already do
0:11:05 and just like make them
0:11:06 newer, easier,
0:11:07 more accessible,
0:11:07 so on and so forth.
0:11:08 And so I suspect
0:11:09 that there will be
0:11:10 a convergence of
0:11:13 one side of crypto
0:11:15 and core financial services,
0:11:17 be that exchanging,
0:11:18 you know,
0:11:20 like checking accounts
0:11:20 with dollars in them
0:11:21 for checking accounts
0:11:22 with USDC in them,
0:11:24 wallets with USDC in them,
0:11:26 or similar.
0:11:27 Like I think there’s
0:11:28 a convergence
0:11:29 that’ll likely happen there.
0:11:30 But then also crypto
0:11:31 does some crazy
0:11:31 out there stuff
0:11:32 and really pushes
0:11:33 the balance on innovation
0:11:34 and like I’m not sure
0:11:34 that that’s necessarily
0:11:35 going to end up
0:11:36 merging with banks,
0:11:36 but who knows.
0:11:37 Totally.
0:11:38 Yeah, I mean,
0:11:39 I totally agree
0:11:40 with what Zach was saying.
0:11:41 I think part of it is,
0:11:43 you know,
0:11:44 culture, right,
0:11:44 and how people,
0:11:45 to Zach’s point,
0:11:46 you know,
0:11:47 want to interact
0:11:48 with financial services.
0:11:49 I think part of this
0:11:49 has been driven
0:11:51 from a regulatory perspective
0:11:52 and I think maybe
0:11:53 the more meta theme
0:11:54 as I’ve sort of watched
0:11:54 FinTech evolve
0:11:55 and I think this is
0:11:56 permeating into crypto
0:11:57 is just how
0:11:58 the large incumbent
0:11:59 financial institutions
0:12:00 are embracing
0:12:00 this innovation
0:12:01 and technology,
0:12:01 you know,
0:12:02 writ large.
0:12:02 I think a lot of the,
0:12:03 you know,
0:12:04 I’d refer to my,
0:12:04 you know,
0:12:05 crypto colleagues
0:12:05 who are much deeper
0:12:06 in this space
0:12:06 than I am.
0:12:08 A lot of the enthusiasm
0:12:09 I would say here
0:12:10 is about,
0:12:11 you know,
0:12:12 the existing kind of
0:12:12 financial system
0:12:13 adopting,
0:12:13 you know,
0:12:14 things like stable coins
0:12:16 or maybe even tokenizing
0:12:17 kind of real world assets
0:12:20 and I think that’s different
0:12:21 in, you know,
0:12:21 from a lot of the
0:12:22 more frontier stuff
0:12:23 that I think the team
0:12:24 had talked about internally
0:12:25 which was kind of
0:12:26 more purely decentralized
0:12:27 and kind of owning
0:12:28 the internet
0:12:29 but I think,
0:12:29 you know,
0:12:30 for crypto to go
0:12:31 very mainstream
0:12:31 and kind of plug
0:12:32 into the broader
0:12:33 financial system
0:12:34 that probably is
0:12:35 and will continue
0:12:35 to happen.
0:12:36 What Zach and the team
0:12:37 at Platt have done,
0:12:37 you know,
0:12:40 the last 14 years,
0:12:41 13 years
0:12:43 is remarkable.
0:12:43 I mean,
0:12:44 you know,
0:12:45 from my vantage point,
0:12:46 like you won the hearts
0:12:46 and minds
0:12:47 of the developer community.
0:12:48 You built this sort
0:12:49 of foundational infrastructure
0:12:51 that really catalyzed,
0:12:51 like,
0:12:52 you know,
0:12:53 I can’t take credit
0:12:55 for creating the FinTech term.
0:12:56 You like created
0:12:57 the enabling infrastructure
0:12:58 to like create the industry
0:12:59 in many ways.
0:13:00 You know,
0:13:01 now have,
0:13:01 I don’t know,
0:13:01 hundreds of millions
0:13:02 of accounts,
0:13:03 you know,
0:13:03 connected
0:13:04 and you’re,
0:13:05 to your point,
0:13:06 now bringing kind of
0:13:06 this whole ecosystem
0:13:08 of kind of value-added
0:13:09 services and analytics,
0:13:10 you know,
0:13:10 to make financial products
0:13:11 better.
0:13:13 And I think
0:13:13 while we saw
0:13:14 different seasons
0:13:15 kind of over that period,
0:13:16 you know,
0:13:17 you know,
0:13:17 hay fever
0:13:19 and long winters
0:13:19 and,
0:13:20 you know,
0:13:21 euphoria
0:13:22 in some moments,
0:13:23 you know,
0:13:25 many of these companies
0:13:26 are now bigger than ever.
0:13:26 I mean,
0:13:27 Robinhood is now,
0:13:27 I don’t know,
0:13:28 $100 billion public company.
0:13:29 You know,
0:13:31 I looked up SoFi stock price.
0:13:32 You know,
0:13:33 they’re a $35 billion
0:13:33 public company.
0:13:34 A firm is a $20 billion
0:13:35 company.
0:13:35 Like,
0:13:36 these are outcomes
0:13:37 that you couldn’t
0:13:38 even imagine.
0:13:38 Revolut.
0:13:39 Yeah,
0:13:39 I mean,
0:13:39 Revolut,
0:13:40 $75 billion,
0:13:41 you know,
0:13:42 for new investors.
0:13:44 And that phenomenon
0:13:45 is not just U.S.-centric
0:13:45 to that point.
0:13:47 It’s become a global one.
0:13:47 I mean,
0:13:48 NewBank,
0:13:48 you know,
0:13:49 $100 billion,
0:13:49 you know,
0:13:50 you know,
0:13:50 company,
0:13:51 you know,
0:13:52 in Brazil.
0:13:53 You know,
0:13:53 my good friend,
0:13:54 Pierre Paulo,
0:13:54 who runs Walla,
0:13:55 in Argentina,
0:13:56 you know,
0:13:56 Colombia,
0:13:56 Mexico.
0:13:58 You know,
0:13:59 so these companies
0:13:59 have worked
0:14:00 and they’ve
0:14:00 kind of
0:14:01 proliferated
0:14:01 and brought
0:14:03 access of
0:14:03 financial products,
0:14:04 you know,
0:14:04 everywhere.
0:14:07 And I think
0:14:07 that that trend
0:14:08 will continue.
0:14:08 You know,
0:14:09 I think while they
0:14:10 started off in
0:14:11 with point solutions
0:14:12 and they kind of
0:14:13 perfected whatever
0:14:14 their wedge product
0:14:14 was,
0:14:15 you know,
0:14:15 many of them
0:14:16 have now
0:14:16 rebundled,
0:14:17 right?
0:14:17 They want to
0:14:18 become kind of
0:14:18 the full,
0:14:19 you know,
0:14:19 financial picture
0:14:21 for their customers,
0:14:21 whether that’s
0:14:22 through cards
0:14:22 or accounts
0:14:22 or lending.
0:14:24 Again,
0:14:24 many of them
0:14:24 have gone
0:14:25 full stack
0:14:25 and actually
0:14:26 bought banks
0:14:27 and actually
0:14:28 hold deposits
0:14:29 and are generating
0:14:30 significant revenue,
0:14:30 you know,
0:14:32 from that float.
0:14:34 I think the other
0:14:34 meta theme
0:14:35 which has been
0:14:37 interesting
0:14:38 and I think
0:14:38 is accelerating
0:14:39 now with AI
0:14:40 is just,
0:14:41 again,
0:14:42 the posture
0:14:43 of a lot of
0:14:43 the incumbent
0:14:44 financial institutions,
0:14:45 you know,
0:14:45 to fintech
0:14:46 and technology
0:14:46 broadly.
0:14:48 You know,
0:14:48 I saw this
0:14:49 kind of firsthand
0:14:51 certainly,
0:14:51 you know,
0:14:52 as an investor
0:14:52 back at Spark,
0:14:53 as a founder,
0:14:54 and then
0:14:55 inside of Goldman,
0:14:56 just even their own
0:14:57 sort of evolution
0:14:58 and posture
0:14:59 to technology,
0:15:00 you know,
0:15:02 for a long time,
0:15:03 many of these
0:15:03 institutions,
0:15:04 like,
0:15:05 if the technology
0:15:05 wasn’t built there,
0:15:06 they weren’t interested.
0:15:07 I mean,
0:15:08 Goldman had literally
0:15:09 created their own
0:15:09 email client.
0:15:10 Like,
0:15:11 they didn’t operate
0:15:11 on Outlook
0:15:12 or on Gmail.
0:15:12 They had this thing
0:15:13 called Orbit.
0:15:13 I don’t know why
0:15:14 Goldman Sachs needs
0:15:14 to create their own
0:15:15 email client,
0:15:15 but,
0:15:16 you know,
0:15:17 that was like
0:15:18 a window into
0:15:19 the psychology
0:15:19 from a technology
0:15:20 perspective.
0:15:20 Don’t they still use
0:15:21 like SecDB
0:15:21 internally?
0:15:22 Like,
0:15:22 they have their own
0:15:23 database that they’ve
0:15:23 built.
0:15:24 That makes more
0:15:25 sense to me
0:15:25 because it was
0:15:26 like a centralized
0:15:26 risk system
0:15:27 for managing
0:15:27 all their trades,
0:15:29 but Outlook
0:15:29 equivalents,
0:15:30 like,
0:15:31 makes no sense.
0:15:32 You know,
0:15:32 then I think
0:15:33 there was this
0:15:33 period where,
0:15:34 you know,
0:15:35 many of the large
0:15:36 institutions were like,
0:15:37 we want to be
0:15:37 the fintech companies
0:15:38 ourselves,
0:15:38 and,
0:15:39 you know,
0:15:39 Goldman
0:15:40 went very aggressively
0:15:42 into Marcus
0:15:43 and others
0:15:44 followed suit.
0:15:45 I think there’s
0:15:46 a bit of a
0:15:47 humbling that
0:15:48 has happened.
0:15:48 You know,
0:15:49 maybe I’m using
0:15:51 them as one
0:15:51 lens,
0:15:53 but more broadly,
0:15:54 I think the
0:15:55 positive impact
0:15:55 of that experience
0:15:57 made them more
0:15:57 open to adopting
0:15:58 the best technology
0:15:59 that exists in
0:16:00 the market
0:16:02 and no longer
0:16:02 building everything
0:16:03 in-house.
0:16:03 And so,
0:16:04 a lot of where
0:16:06 I’ve been spending
0:16:06 time the past
0:16:07 several years
0:16:09 has been
0:16:10 in,
0:16:10 you know,
0:16:11 fintech companies
0:16:11 that lead with
0:16:12 software,
0:16:13 that,
0:16:13 you know,
0:16:14 ideally have
0:16:15 the potential
0:16:15 for a network
0:16:16 effect and are
0:16:17 selling into
0:16:17 these financial,
0:16:18 you know,
0:16:19 larger financial
0:16:19 institutions and
0:16:20 solving,
0:16:20 you know,
0:16:21 real workflow
0:16:22 challenges for
0:16:22 them.
0:16:24 And I think
0:16:25 we’re at this
0:16:25 interesting moment
0:16:27 where because
0:16:27 the software
0:16:28 itself can
0:16:28 actually do
0:16:29 the work,
0:16:29 you know,
0:16:30 with AI,
0:16:31 there’s sort
0:16:32 of this bottoms-up
0:16:33 momentum and
0:16:33 top-down pressure
0:16:34 that’s happening
0:16:34 that I think is
0:16:35 accelerating this
0:16:36 cultural change.
0:16:37 You know,
0:16:37 many of these
0:16:38 institutions are
0:16:39 beginning to
0:16:40 adopt products
0:16:40 like Cursor
0:16:40 or,
0:16:41 you know,
0:16:42 even GitHub
0:16:42 co-pilot
0:16:43 or a broader
0:16:44 ecosystem of
0:16:44 kind of AI
0:16:45 products in
0:16:46 their employee
0:16:47 base and people
0:16:47 are seeing the
0:16:48 productivity gains.
0:16:49 And then unlike
0:16:50 I think prior
0:16:51 periods of kind
0:16:52 of product cycle
0:16:53 or platform
0:16:53 shifts,
0:16:54 if you were
0:16:55 the CEO of a
0:16:55 big bank and
0:16:56 you said,
0:16:56 you know,
0:16:57 do I need to
0:16:57 be in the
0:16:57 cloud?
0:16:58 Like that was
0:16:59 sort of an
0:16:59 esoteric
0:17:01 question.
0:17:02 Now it’s like
0:17:03 any CEO,
0:17:04 any board member
0:17:04 can plug a prompt
0:17:05 into one of
0:17:05 these models and
0:17:06 sort of intuitively
0:17:06 understand the
0:17:07 impact that it
0:17:07 could have on
0:17:08 their business.
0:17:09 And so I
0:17:09 think that’s
0:17:10 broadening the
0:17:10 aperture,
0:17:11 at least from
0:17:11 my vantage point,
0:17:12 of what
0:17:12 fintech is.
0:17:13 And it’s
0:17:13 really,
0:17:14 I think to
0:17:14 your point,
0:17:15 just financial
0:17:16 services and
0:17:17 I think software
0:17:17 in large part
0:17:17 sold into
0:17:18 financial services
0:17:19 as well.
0:17:19 Yeah.
0:17:20 And David,
0:17:21 say more about
0:17:22 sort of that
0:17:24 change around
0:17:25 when, you know,
0:17:25 it went from
0:17:27 25% to,
0:17:28 you know,
0:17:29 less than that.
0:17:30 What was
0:17:30 changing in
0:17:31 these businesses
0:17:33 that caused
0:17:33 that?
0:17:34 You mentioned
0:17:34 sort of the
0:17:35 macro environment,
0:17:35 but is there
0:17:35 anything else
0:17:36 we could learn
0:17:36 from it?
0:17:37 and more
0:17:38 around now,
0:17:38 where are you
0:17:39 particularly
0:17:40 excited to
0:17:41 invest or
0:17:42 what are the
0:17:42 sort of
0:17:42 different,
0:17:44 you know,
0:17:44 sort of
0:17:45 subspaces that
0:17:46 you’re, you
0:17:46 know,
0:17:46 looking at
0:17:46 or excited
0:17:47 to?
0:17:48 I think 2021
0:17:49 period was
0:17:50 sort of wild
0:17:51 for lots of
0:17:51 reasons.
0:17:52 I think, you
0:17:52 know,
0:17:53 financial services
0:17:55 is and
0:17:55 remains obviously
0:17:56 one of the
0:17:56 biggest parts
0:17:57 of our global
0:17:57 economy.
0:17:58 And so I
0:17:58 think people,
0:17:59 you know,
0:18:00 often get
0:18:01 overexcited
0:18:01 maybe by
0:18:01 TAM,
0:18:02 you know,
0:18:03 and so every
0:18:04 venture firm
0:18:04 created a
0:18:05 fintech team,
0:18:06 you know,
0:18:06 was deploying
0:18:06 a lot of
0:18:07 capital,
0:18:07 you know,
0:18:08 to that
0:18:08 market.
0:18:10 You know,
0:18:11 and again,
0:18:11 many of these
0:18:12 companies have
0:18:12 continued to
0:18:13 succeed,
0:18:13 but I think
0:18:14 it was probably
0:18:16 too much euphoria
0:18:17 going into that
0:18:18 space relative
0:18:18 to the amount
0:18:18 of dollars.
0:18:19 No, no,
0:18:19 I think it was
0:18:20 the exact
0:18:20 right amount
0:18:21 of euphoria
0:18:21 just to pull
0:18:22 back afterwards.
0:18:23 That was great.
0:18:24 Exactly.
0:18:26 You know,
0:18:26 again,
0:18:26 part of that
0:18:27 was that
0:18:27 companies,
0:18:28 you know,
0:18:29 when rates
0:18:29 are zero,
0:18:30 you can lend
0:18:30 money and
0:18:31 grow very
0:18:31 quickly and
0:18:32 there’s a lot
0:18:32 of, you know,
0:18:33 margin to
0:18:33 capture there.
0:18:34 I think when
0:18:34 rates go up,
0:18:35 your cost of
0:18:35 capital goes up
0:18:36 and that margin
0:18:37 shrinks and
0:18:37 there’s a
0:18:38 natural ceiling
0:18:39 on borrowing
0:18:40 that people,
0:18:40 you know,
0:18:41 both from a
0:18:42 regulatory perspective
0:18:42 and a kind of
0:18:43 consumer appetite
0:18:44 perspective.
0:18:45 So the business
0:18:46 model on the
0:18:47 lending side,
0:18:47 I think,
0:18:47 you know,
0:18:48 kind of
0:18:48 compressed.
0:18:49 But you also
0:18:49 have to look at
0:18:50 the underlying
0:18:51 growth rates
0:18:51 of these apps
0:18:52 were insane.
0:18:52 Totally.
0:18:54 You look at
0:18:55 the number of
0:18:55 consumers that
0:18:56 were, you know,
0:18:57 signing up to
0:18:57 invest or
0:18:58 signing up to
0:18:59 take a loan or
0:19:00 signing up to
0:19:01 buy a Bitcoin or
0:19:01 whatever it was.
0:19:01 Totally.
0:19:02 Like, we just
0:19:03 looked at the
0:19:04 charts and
0:19:04 like, you know,
0:19:05 if the app was
0:19:06 growing at,
0:19:07 what, 25% a
0:19:08 month, it was
0:19:09 actually a great
0:19:09 venture investment.
0:19:10 Totally.
0:19:10 And yes, you
0:19:10 might know that
0:19:11 the music at
0:19:11 some point is
0:19:12 going to slow
0:19:12 down or stop,
0:19:14 but 25% a
0:19:15 month’s growth
0:19:15 is insane.
0:19:15 totally.
0:19:17 Yeah, totally.
0:19:18 I mean, and
0:19:19 this was like
0:19:19 stimulus and
0:19:20 there was a lot
0:19:21 of…
0:19:21 Helicopter money
0:19:22 everywhere.
0:19:23 Yeah, there
0:19:23 were a lot of
0:19:23 reasons they
0:19:24 were growing that
0:19:24 fast.
0:19:26 100%.
0:19:26 And look, I
0:19:27 think like from
0:19:28 a, I don’t
0:19:29 know, industry
0:19:29 health perspective,
0:19:30 like I think
0:19:30 things have
0:19:31 normalized, but
0:19:32 the companies
0:19:32 continue to
0:19:33 grow and
0:19:33 succeed.
0:19:33 I mean, again,
0:19:34 now they’re,
0:19:34 you know, bigger
0:19:35 than they’ve
0:19:35 ever been.
0:19:36 The great ones.
0:19:37 There was a
0:19:37 washout.
0:19:39 And there
0:19:40 were a lot of
0:19:40 fintech
0:19:41 companies that
0:19:42 died or shut
0:19:43 down in the
0:19:43 second half of
0:19:44 22, in the
0:19:45 first half of
0:19:45 23.
0:19:47 There were a
0:19:47 lot that, you
0:19:48 know, kind of
0:19:49 went sideways
0:19:50 for quite a
0:19:51 while.
0:19:53 And a lot of
0:19:53 lenders, especially
0:19:54 who just like
0:19:55 basically closed
0:19:55 up shop or
0:19:56 merge or things
0:19:57 like that.
0:19:58 But the ones
0:19:58 that succeeded
0:19:59 coming out of
0:20:00 it across all
0:20:00 of fintech,
0:20:01 they were much,
0:20:01 much stronger
0:20:02 for it.
0:20:02 Totally.
0:20:03 So as you
0:20:04 said, like if
0:20:04 you started off
0:20:05 with a neobank
0:20:06 and all they
0:20:07 did was have
0:20:07 a checking
0:20:08 account and a
0:20:08 savings account
0:20:08 and maybe a
0:20:10 card, well, in
0:20:11 this period, if
0:20:11 they wanted to
0:20:11 survive, they
0:20:13 needed to build
0:20:13 the lending
0:20:14 side of their
0:20:15 offering.
0:20:16 And so they
0:20:17 expanded there
0:20:17 or build the
0:20:18 investment side
0:20:18 of their
0:20:19 offering, so
0:20:19 they expanded
0:20:19 there.
0:20:19 And so now
0:20:20 you come out
0:20:20 with these
0:20:21 much more
0:20:21 full-fledged,
0:20:22 long-lasting
0:20:23 companies.
0:20:24 the winners
0:20:25 became even
0:20:26 more so the
0:20:26 winners.
0:20:28 And yeah, there
0:20:29 was an
0:20:29 unfortunate number
0:20:29 of companies
0:20:30 that also
0:20:30 didn’t make
0:20:30 it.
0:20:31 Totally.
0:20:32 David, I’m
0:20:33 curious how
0:20:34 we look at
0:20:35 the sort of
0:20:35 investable
0:20:36 universe or
0:20:36 sort of
0:20:37 divide.
0:20:38 Is it, you
0:20:38 know, that
0:20:39 there’s a
0:20:39 certain type
0:20:40 of form
0:20:40 factors and
0:20:41 it’s, you
0:20:41 know, each
0:20:42 region is
0:20:42 going to have
0:20:43 their new
0:20:44 banks, so to
0:20:45 speak, or is
0:20:46 it, you
0:20:46 know, by
0:20:48 sort of form
0:20:48 factor or value
0:20:49 prop to
0:20:50 the, how do
0:20:51 we think about
0:20:52 the universe and
0:20:53 how do we
0:20:53 map it?
0:20:55 You know, it’s
0:20:55 been interesting.
0:20:55 I mean, I would
0:20:56 say from our
0:20:57 vantage point, we
0:20:58 haven’t made as
0:20:59 many consumer
0:21:00 fintech investments
0:21:01 in recent years
0:21:02 as we have
0:21:02 historically.
0:21:04 I think part
0:21:04 of it is just
0:21:05 it’s more
0:21:05 expensive to
0:21:06 acquire customers
0:21:07 and hit the
0:21:07 kind of scale
0:21:08 you need to
0:21:09 really be in
0:21:09 a kind of
0:21:10 venture scale
0:21:10 outcomes.
0:21:11 And I think
0:21:11 that’s a
0:21:12 function of,
0:21:12 you know,
0:21:14 just, you
0:21:15 know, consumer
0:21:15 acquisition
0:21:16 channels getting
0:21:16 more expensive
0:21:17 and some of
0:21:17 these companies
0:21:18 starting early
0:21:18 and it was
0:21:19 easier to
0:21:20 acquire and
0:21:21 then build
0:21:21 massive LTV
0:21:22 with their
0:21:22 existing
0:21:22 customer
0:21:23 bases.
0:21:24 That does
0:21:25 change around
0:21:25 the world.
0:21:27 I think, you
0:21:27 know, in some
0:21:28 markets, people
0:21:28 were entering the
0:21:29 formal financial
0:21:30 economy for the
0:21:30 first time and
0:21:31 so offering a
0:21:32 fee-free mobile
0:21:33 first, you
0:21:33 know, bank
0:21:34 account and a
0:21:35 debit card
0:21:36 literally gave
0:21:37 them access to
0:21:38 e-commerce and
0:21:38 things like
0:21:39 Netflix and
0:21:40 Spotify and
0:21:41 Amazon for the
0:21:42 very first time.
0:21:43 Credit doesn’t
0:21:44 exist equally in
0:21:45 every market around
0:21:46 the world, nor do
0:21:47 credit bureaus and
0:21:48 credit data.
0:21:49 So there’s, I
0:21:50 think, still, you
0:21:51 know, tons of
0:21:51 interesting kind of
0:21:52 macro opportunity
0:21:53 from a financial
0:21:53 product perspective,
0:21:55 I think, especially
0:21:56 in emerging
0:21:57 economies, I
0:21:58 think AI could be
0:21:59 an interesting, you
0:21:59 know, kind of
0:22:00 catalyst for a
0:22:01 new resurgence of
0:22:02 consumer fintech.
0:22:03 I mean, there’s
0:22:03 always been this
0:22:05 promise of, you
0:22:05 know, kind of
0:22:06 self-driving money
0:22:08 or, you know,
0:22:08 PFMs that
0:22:09 actually do the
0:22:10 work for you and
0:22:11 help you make, you
0:22:11 know, not just
0:22:12 give you advice,
0:22:13 but actually, you
0:22:14 know, help you
0:22:15 earn, you know,
0:22:16 save and spend
0:22:16 even better.
0:22:18 And I think, like,
0:22:20 we’ve yet to see as
0:22:20 many of those
0:22:21 companies today, but
0:22:22 I think there’s, the
0:22:23 technology might be
0:22:24 ripe.
0:22:24 I’m curious if you’re
0:22:25 seeing this, you
0:22:26 know, on your
0:22:27 side, like, to
0:22:28 actually deliver on
0:22:28 that promise.
0:22:29 Yeah.
0:22:30 You know, it’s
0:22:31 funny, when we
0:22:32 think about
0:22:33 prospective apps,
0:22:34 like, you know, the
0:22:35 app that I wish
0:22:36 that existed, you
0:22:37 know, I wish that
0:22:37 there was a
0:22:38 self-driving money
0:22:38 app that I could
0:22:39 just say, hey,
0:22:39 you know, my
0:22:40 paycheck goes in
0:22:41 here, like, you
0:22:41 know, sweep
0:22:42 enough money into
0:22:42 my checking
0:22:43 account so that I
0:22:44 can play my daily
0:22:45 expenses, but
0:22:45 put all the rest
0:22:46 into this, like,
0:22:46 high-yield savings
0:22:48 account and invest
0:22:48 this percent of it
0:22:49 in the market.
0:22:51 And, you know, I
0:22:51 wish that this
0:22:51 thing existed.
0:22:54 I don’t actually
0:22:55 know that that’s
0:22:56 necessarily a very
0:22:57 good app to build
0:22:58 because I’m a weird
0:22:59 power user.
0:23:00 I have insane
0:23:01 trust in FinTech
0:23:02 companies to do
0:23:03 all this stuff for
0:23:03 me.
0:23:04 Like, I understand
0:23:05 all the actions that
0:23:06 the agent would
0:23:07 take, and I have,
0:23:08 you know, enough
0:23:09 background in the
0:23:10 space that, like, the
0:23:11 actions seem logical
0:23:11 to me.
0:23:12 But if I gave that
0:23:14 to my mom, she’d be
0:23:14 like, oh, where’s
0:23:15 my money?
0:23:15 What’s going on?
0:23:15 Like, I don’t
0:23:16 trust this thing.
0:23:17 Like, wait, why did
0:23:17 it move money over
0:23:18 there?
0:23:18 I have all these
0:23:18 questions.
0:23:20 And so, you know,
0:23:22 I’m not sure that I’m
0:23:22 necessarily the best
0:23:23 at this.
0:23:24 Like, so I have all
0:23:24 these visions of,
0:23:26 like, the prospective
0:23:27 apps that should exist
0:23:27 out there.
0:23:29 but then, you know, for
0:23:31 us as Plaid, and in a
0:23:32 lot of instances for you
0:23:35 as an investor, like,
0:23:35 certainly for us as
0:23:36 Plaid, like, our job is
0:23:37 like, we need to build
0:23:37 the platform and then
0:23:38 figure out what
0:23:39 emergent behavior starts
0:23:40 to exist on it, and
0:23:41 then go optimize for
0:23:42 that emergent behavior
0:23:44 as new interesting
0:23:45 companies start to
0:23:45 emerge.
0:23:48 And so that’s how we
0:23:49 think of our job.
0:23:50 So, like, our job as
0:23:51 it relates to AI is
0:23:53 like, let’s build
0:23:53 tools that allow
0:23:55 consumers safely to
0:23:56 link their data with
0:23:57 agents.
0:23:59 Then let’s build tools
0:24:00 that allow those agents
0:24:01 to take the proper
0:24:02 actions, be that just
0:24:03 analyzing data, or be
0:24:04 that actually moving
0:24:04 money or something
0:24:05 else.
0:24:06 Let’s build tools that
0:24:07 allow those agents to
0:24:08 take those actions.
0:24:10 And then let’s see what
0:24:11 happens and, like, have
0:24:12 a team that’s just,
0:24:13 like, constantly looking
0:24:13 at, like, the emergent
0:24:14 behavior and figuring
0:24:15 out, oh, is that a
0:24:15 good thing?
0:24:16 Do we want to optimize
0:24:16 for that?
0:24:17 Oh, like, has that
0:24:18 enabled some new vector
0:24:19 of risk that we need
0:24:20 to avoid?
0:24:21 And that’s kind of
0:24:23 the thought process
0:24:24 that we take across
0:24:24 all the things that we
0:24:24 do.
0:24:26 So, a lot of it is,
0:24:26 like, if you build it,
0:24:27 they will come.
0:24:28 You just don’t know
0:24:28 who will come and
0:24:29 what they’ll look like
0:24:31 and, like, what exactly
0:24:31 is going to be the
0:24:32 next big thing.
0:24:33 But we have to be very
0:24:34 prepared to react when
0:24:34 we see it.
0:24:36 Yeah, and I think, as
0:24:37 a result, like, we’ve
0:24:39 been focused on maybe
0:24:40 more known problems.
0:24:40 Like, there’s so many,
0:24:42 there’s so much work
0:24:43 that happens inside of
0:24:44 all these large
0:24:45 financial institutions
0:24:46 that it’s just done
0:24:47 manually by expensive
0:24:48 people, you know,
0:24:50 frankly, across risk,
0:24:50 compliance, legal,
0:24:51 you know, vendor
0:24:52 onboarding, treasury
0:24:53 management.
0:24:54 I mean, you know,
0:24:54 I can go on and
0:24:55 on and on.
0:24:58 And now you have,
0:24:59 again, AI to actually,
0:25:00 you know, solve many
0:25:00 of those problems.
0:25:02 And so, that’s, I
0:25:02 think, you know,
0:25:03 largely where we’ve
0:25:04 been spending time.
0:25:05 You know, you know,
0:25:06 companies like, you
0:25:07 know, Moment that have
0:25:08 built, you know, fixed
0:25:08 income trading
0:25:09 infrastructure.
0:25:10 If you’re a wealth
0:25:11 management client of
0:25:13 JP Morgan today, you
0:25:13 know, building a bond
0:25:14 ladder is still a
0:25:15 manual process.
0:25:15 You’re picking, you
0:25:16 know, individual
0:25:17 securities one by
0:25:17 one.
0:25:19 That’s insane.
0:25:20 Like, that hasn’t
0:25:21 existed for, you know,
0:25:21 at least a decade in
0:25:23 inequities.
0:25:24 And so, you know,
0:25:24 there’s a ton of
0:25:25 opportunity to solve,
0:25:26 you know, kind of
0:25:27 basic problems like
0:25:27 that.
0:25:27 And I would argue
0:25:29 build, you know,
0:25:30 very large, you
0:25:30 know, kind of
0:25:31 software and kind of
0:25:32 platform style
0:25:34 businesses on the
0:25:34 back of that.
0:25:35 So whether it’s, you
0:25:37 know, things like, you
0:25:38 know, you know, a
0:25:39 company like Salient,
0:25:40 which is doing, you
0:25:40 know, bringing voice
0:25:42 agents to loan
0:25:43 servicing and
0:25:43 collections, right?
0:25:45 The idea that, you
0:25:46 know, a voice agent
0:25:46 can speak in 50
0:25:47 languages, you know,
0:25:48 fully compliantly
0:25:49 track UDEP, you
0:25:50 know, do welcome
0:25:51 calls and payment
0:25:53 reminders, you
0:25:54 know, and actually
0:25:55 deliver on a better
0:25:55 customer experience
0:25:57 because it can speak
0:25:57 their native language
0:25:59 and get better
0:26:00 results.
0:26:00 It’s infinitely
0:26:01 patient, right?
0:26:03 You know, that is a
0:26:04 really interesting
0:26:05 opportunity for the
0:26:06 moment, you know, in
0:26:08 large part because it’s
0:26:09 unlocking markets that
0:26:10 were never particularly
0:26:11 interesting to software
0:26:12 into because IT
0:26:14 budgets were small and
0:26:15 now, you know, the
0:26:16 TAM is largely labor.
0:26:17 And so that’s been, I
0:26:18 think, kind of one of
0:26:19 the reorientations that
0:26:20 we’ve seen the last
0:26:21 few years from kind of
0:26:22 financial product-led
0:26:23 companies largely to,
0:26:24 you know, software-led
0:26:26 businesses and kind of
0:26:26 financial services were
0:26:27 at large.
0:26:28 Zach, you wrote about
0:26:29 your predictions for
0:26:30 2026.
0:26:31 Maybe share one we
0:26:32 haven’t gotten
0:26:34 to yet around where
0:26:35 things are going or
0:26:35 where you’re particularly
0:26:35 excited.
0:26:37 I was at a dinner a
0:26:38 couple weeks ago and
0:26:40 so this might not be a
0:26:40 prediction, this might
0:26:41 just be a recognition
0:26:43 of current truth.
0:26:45 But I was at a dinner
0:26:46 recently and someone
0:26:47 asked the table a
0:26:48 question and the
0:26:49 question was, what’s
0:26:49 the biggest use case
0:26:51 of AI in financial
0:26:52 services?
0:26:54 And some people had
0:26:55 answers and then it
0:26:56 got to me and I kind
0:26:58 of flippantly said
0:26:59 doing fraud.
0:27:00 It turns out the
0:27:01 biggest use case for
0:27:02 AI is fraudsters,
0:27:03 committing fraud
0:27:04 against financial
0:27:04 services companies.
0:27:06 And I said it
0:27:06 jokingly and then
0:27:08 realized as I was
0:27:08 saying it, oh no,
0:27:09 this is actually the
0:27:09 correct answer.
0:27:11 The entire table was
0:27:12 like, yeah, okay,
0:27:13 that’s the correct
0:27:13 answer.
0:27:15 And so, you know,
0:27:16 we’re at this point in
0:27:17 the ecosystem where
0:27:18 AI has so much
0:27:19 potential to change
0:27:20 things and who’s using
0:27:20 it the most?
0:27:21 It’s the fraudsters.
0:27:24 And right now we’re
0:27:24 at a point where
0:27:25 financial fraud is
0:27:26 growing at like 18
0:27:27 to 20% a year,
0:27:29 which is insane and
0:27:29 it’s already a huge
0:27:29 market.
0:27:33 So I guess in
0:27:36 that vein, one of
0:27:37 my predictions for
0:27:39 2026 is unfortunately
0:27:41 financial fraud is
0:27:42 going to continue to
0:27:43 accelerate in a way
0:27:44 that we don’t quite
0:27:45 understand and probably
0:27:46 can’t quite feel out and
0:27:48 predict yet because,
0:27:49 you know, it’s a cat
0:27:49 and mouse game, but
0:27:51 the mouse is winning
0:27:52 right now.
0:27:52 I mean, the cat, the
0:27:54 cattle win long term,
0:27:55 but the mouse is
0:27:56 winning right now.
0:27:58 So it’s kind of a
0:27:59 depressing prediction,
0:28:01 but I think likely.
0:28:03 What are you guys
0:28:04 doing about it?
0:28:06 Well, so we build an
0:28:07 anti-fraud product suite.
0:28:08 I promise this was not
0:28:10 me teeing up bragging
0:28:11 about that, but I will
0:28:12 brag about that.
0:28:13 I’m curious because it’s
0:28:14 a hard problem to solve,
0:28:15 but if anybody can kind
0:28:16 of try to figure it out.
0:28:17 Well, we can’t solve it
0:28:17 all.
0:28:18 We can solve pieces of it.
0:28:19 So we build an
0:28:20 anti-fraud product suite
0:28:21 that’s called Protect.
0:28:22 Within that, we have this
0:28:24 analysis of every user
0:28:24 and every user action
0:28:26 that we can assign a
0:28:27 score to to say what’s
0:28:28 the trustworthiness of
0:28:29 this user, this account,
0:28:30 this user action that
0:28:31 they’re taking.
0:28:33 And we pull this data
0:28:34 and build it based on
0:28:35 looking at every user
0:28:35 action that’s taken
0:28:36 across every fintech
0:28:37 company that we work
0:28:39 with, plus the data
0:28:39 that’s coming from the
0:28:40 bank account, plus
0:28:41 device data, plus a
0:28:42 zillion other data sets
0:28:43 that we match it all
0:28:43 with.
0:28:45 And so it’s the first
0:28:46 kind of network linked
0:28:47 like cross-fintech,
0:28:49 cross-bank type of
0:28:50 anti-fraud tool.
0:28:51 And it’s awesome, and
0:28:52 it adds some amazing
0:28:54 signal to the company
0:28:54 that we work with.
0:28:56 But this is like one
0:28:58 of very many solutions
0:28:59 that need to exist.
0:29:01 We’re starting to get
0:29:01 good at fighting
0:29:02 deepfakes as well, I
0:29:03 mean, like as an
0:29:04 industry and Plaid
0:29:05 specifically, but like
0:29:06 still very early there.
0:29:08 But, you know, the
0:29:09 stuff that freaks me
0:29:10 out is, you know,
0:29:11 have you heard of
0:29:12 pig butchering?
0:29:14 For those listening
0:29:14 on a podcast, I’ll
0:29:15 explain it briefly
0:29:16 because it’s kind of
0:29:17 a gruesome term.
0:29:18 But it is basically
0:29:20 when you get a text
0:29:21 message that says,
0:29:21 hey, how you doing?
0:29:25 And you respond to it,
0:29:26 don’t ever respond to those.
0:29:27 But if you do get one of
0:29:28 those and you were to
0:29:30 respond to it, they would
0:29:30 then strike up a
0:29:31 conversation with you and
0:29:32 eventually they would like
0:29:33 find some complex way to
0:29:34 like ask you to give them
0:29:34 money.
0:29:36 And when you go up and
0:29:37 execute that transaction,
0:29:39 you have just sent money to
0:29:40 a total stranger on the
0:29:41 internet and yes, they’ve
0:29:41 stolen the money.
0:29:43 Like that is like in 100%
0:29:44 of cases what happens.
0:29:46 That used to be done based
0:29:48 on these like human
0:29:50 factories in like Malaysia
0:29:51 where they would like have
0:29:52 these people like locked
0:29:53 in rooms sending text
0:29:54 messages to unassuming
0:29:55 people in the U.S.
0:29:56 mostly but around the
0:29:56 world.
0:29:58 Now that’s all AI.
0:29:59 You don’t need these human
0:29:59 factories anymore.
0:30:00 The AI can do all that.
0:30:01 And the AI is just getting
0:30:02 better and better and
0:30:02 better.
0:30:05 And like how do we
0:30:05 fight that?
0:30:06 Like because it’s a human
0:30:08 taking an action that they
0:30:09 think is sending money to a
0:30:09 friend and they’ve been
0:30:11 tricked but it is fraud but
0:30:13 it’s very hard to fight that
0:30:13 kind of fraud.
0:30:17 And so I mean there are so
0:30:18 many more tools that we
0:30:19 need to build as an industry
0:30:20 collectively and of course
0:30:22 as Plaid specifically.
0:30:22 Totally.
0:30:23 We were talking about the
0:30:25 different eras of fintech.
0:30:26 I’m curious what have been
0:30:28 sort of the different eras of
0:30:28 Plaid.
0:30:29 Of course there was the
0:30:31 you know sort of the
0:30:32 acquisition that didn’t go
0:30:33 through with Fintech
0:30:34 Visa and sort of the ups and
0:30:36 downs that you guys have
0:30:37 had you know alongside the
0:30:38 macro and obviously you’re in
0:30:39 an incredible position right
0:30:39 now.
0:30:43 Is the talk more about the
0:30:43 different eras of Plaid or
0:30:44 how the Plaid vision has
0:30:47 evolved or stayed true to
0:30:47 the original.
0:30:50 So started Plaid I started
0:30:51 working on a thing that
0:30:52 wasn’t Plaid but pivoted into
0:30:53 Plaid in the very end of
0:30:53 2012.
0:30:56 We launched we pivoted into
0:30:57 what we were doing in kind of
0:30:59 mid late 2013 and launched to
0:31:00 the world in 2014.
0:31:02 So you know it’s been a good
0:31:05 11 to 13 years depending on
0:31:06 how you count that series of
0:31:07 bad products that we built
0:31:07 first.
0:31:10 David actually was a friend and
0:31:11 knew us then.
0:31:12 But I’m going to actually brief
0:31:12 aside.
0:31:14 David I don’t know if you know
0:31:15 this.
0:31:17 David found Plaid.
0:31:19 He was the first investor.
0:31:20 Led the seed round at Spark.
0:31:23 Actually like sourced the deal as
0:31:24 like you’re an associate I think
0:31:25 at Spark at the time.
0:31:29 Then he went to Goldman around
0:31:30 the time that Goldman invested.
0:31:31 You weren’t involved in the
0:31:32 investment specifically but you
0:31:33 were at Goldman at that time
0:31:34 and probably helpful in the
0:31:35 background.
0:31:36 Then came to Andreessen and
0:31:37 Andreessen invested.
0:31:39 And he’s been like a huge
0:31:40 friend and supporter of Plaid
0:31:41 over the years.
0:31:43 So we owe a lot to David and a
0:31:44 huge amount of thank you.
0:31:45 And he also creates all the
0:31:46 important industry terms.
0:31:47 So you know the FinTech
0:31:49 industry owes a lot to David.
0:31:49 I don’t know.
0:31:52 Anyway so Plaid started
0:31:54 let’s say 2014 we launched.
0:31:56 And then 2014 to like
0:31:58 2019 that was all about
0:31:59 linking bank accounts.
0:32:00 Like how do we enable you to
0:32:01 link a bank account so that you
0:32:04 can gain more access to
0:32:05 financial products broadly.
0:32:06 So link a bank account so you
0:32:07 can pay a friend on Venmo.
0:32:08 Link a bank account so you can
0:32:08 get a loan on Lending Club.
0:32:11 That was kind of phase one.
0:32:14 Kind of 2019-2020
0:32:17 you know we called this
0:32:18 what like late
0:32:20 like late spring like blooming
0:32:22 spring continuing to grow in
0:32:24 in 2020
0:32:28 January 2020 we signed
0:32:29 paperwork to sell the company
0:32:29 to Visa
0:32:32 and you know still late
0:32:34 spring we didn’t know that
0:32:34 COVID was coming we didn’t
0:32:35 know that the EDM music would
0:32:36 turn on.
0:32:38 I remember chatting with you
0:32:39 I think it was like February
0:32:41 or March you know like it was
0:32:42 probably March right when
0:32:44 COVID was just beginning I was
0:32:45 like wow you really timed that
0:32:47 well you know and then and
0:32:48 then the business starts
0:32:49 ripping and it was like oh
0:32:51 that’s a very expensive free
0:32:52 call option yeah you know on
0:32:54 the business and so walking
0:32:55 away from that is pretty.
0:32:56 In an acquisition like at least
0:32:57 in our acquisition you sign
0:32:58 paperwork that says we’re in
0:33:00 exclusivity and as soon as
0:33:03 everything is cleared like all
0:33:05 the checkboxes are checked then
0:33:07 the deal will close and so we
0:33:08 had a year of exclusivity and
0:33:10 that started in January of 2020
0:33:14 2020 and yeah like in call it
0:33:16 like late March of 2020 or
0:33:18 maybe early April we were
0:33:19 talking and it was like yeah we
0:33:21 have this deal to sell the
0:33:22 company for just over five
0:33:24 billion dollars and it’s fixed
0:33:28 price Visa stock price goes is
0:33:30 going down so like all of the
0:33:32 stock compensation that we’re
0:33:32 going to get out of this deal
0:33:34 man that’s worth a whole lot
0:33:35 more as a percentage of Visa
0:33:36 like we own a large chunk of
0:33:37 Visa that that that seems
0:33:40 interesting and then we looked
0:33:41 through the docks and like
0:33:42 they have this things called
0:33:43 like material adverse event
0:33:45 so you can get out of a deal
0:33:46 if something crazy happens and
0:33:47 there was a provision there
0:33:48 that says you cannot get out
0:33:49 of the deal even in the case
0:33:51 of a global pandemic and like
0:33:52 some lawyers somewhere in some
0:33:53 room had like come up with
0:33:54 like oh let’s let’s just like
0:33:57 add this in and I don’t know
0:33:59 we were like oh man this is
0:34:00 great we got we got everything
0:34:00 set they can’t get out of it
0:34:02 in case of a pandemic like
0:34:03 we’re gonna get a huge chunk
0:34:04 Visa we’re gonna be off to
0:34:07 the races and then like the
0:34:08 deal took forever to close
0:34:09 because the DOJ was
0:34:10 investigating Visa for being a
0:34:11 monopolist and like all this
0:34:13 overhead and like kind of
0:34:14 for the next the next phase
0:34:15 the EDM music just like
0:34:16 started getting louder and
0:34:17 louder and louder and like
0:34:18 summer started happening and
0:34:19 like fintech started growing
0:34:20 and people were stuck at home
0:34:22 they needed to use digital
0:34:23 finance to live their
0:34:25 financial lives and so at the
0:34:26 end a year later we looked at
0:34:29 and we said for a large
0:34:29 variety of reasons it makes
0:34:31 sense for us to part as
0:34:34 friends with Visa and we’ll go
0:34:35 our own way we’ll we’ll keep
0:34:36 running partisan independent
0:34:38 entity and then we raised a big
0:34:40 up around and you know off to
0:34:43 the races but you know through
0:34:44 that you tell the company hey
0:34:46 we’re selling okay great that’s
0:34:47 that’s a really hard thing to
0:34:48 convince everybody to still be
0:34:48 excited even though you’re
0:34:50 selling the company a year
0:34:52 later hey we’re not selling
0:34:54 another very very hard thing
0:34:55 because you’re telling
0:34:57 everybody you know you’re not
0:34:58 going to get all that cash that
0:34:59 you thought you’re going to get
0:35:00 like you can’t buy the house I’m
0:35:01 sorry but we’ll try to do a
0:35:02 secondary soon so maybe you can
0:35:06 buy a car and you have to like
0:35:07 really change the culture it’s
0:35:09 like almost a refounding moment
0:35:11 at that point and then you go
0:35:13 through the rest of the summer and
0:35:14 that was great lots of growth but
0:35:17 then into like fintech winter and
0:35:19 that’s another like we gotta we
0:35:20 gotta all come together like like
0:35:22 our customers are growing more
0:35:23 slowly yes we’re producing great
0:35:24 products yes like plot is growing
0:35:27 but like you know it’s not the
0:35:28 growth that we’re used to because
0:35:31 we’re in fintech winter and then
0:35:32 it’s nice to finally be back in
0:35:32 spring but like there’s
0:35:34 definitely a lot of ups and
0:35:36 downs on that journey like I
0:35:37 think it was like multiple like
0:35:39 refounding or like multiple
0:35:40 crucible moments along the way
0:35:41 was there a period in that where
0:35:44 you found your maybe you always
0:35:45 had it but like your second win
0:35:47 because at least from the outside
0:35:48 it’s felt like your product
0:35:50 velocity really increased at some
0:35:51 point in the last like you know
0:35:54 two and a half years yeah yeah it
0:35:56 has I mean I shifted my role quite
0:35:58 significantly so like I’m I’m our
0:36:00 chief product officer like I am in
0:36:03 all of the product stuff and a
0:36:06 lot of it was like for us really
0:36:08 was like building the data set to
0:36:09 the size that we can actually run
0:36:11 analytics on it so we build fraud
0:36:13 scores that look at your actions
0:36:14 relative to every other user that
0:36:15 we see in our platform and
0:36:16 identify if you’re anomalous if we
0:36:19 didn’t have enough data to identify
0:36:20 if you were anomalous then it
0:36:21 wouldn’t be a relevant score for us
0:36:22 to build so we got to one enough
0:36:24 data and then two we finally
0:36:25 figured out how to like build and
0:36:27 launch products would be and so
0:36:29 that’s been like one of the most
0:36:30 fun things for me actually
0:36:33 weirdly like I think I was like
0:36:37 like not as happy in the period of
0:36:39 like EDM pumping like fast growth
0:36:40 everybody’s like throwing money at
0:36:42 fintech like that industry I think
0:36:43 I was like a little less happy
0:36:44 because it was like I think I’m
0:36:45 adding differential value I think
0:36:46 I’m just like you know running as
0:36:49 fast as I possibly can and you know
0:36:50 maybe I make some good decisions
0:36:51 but like you know it all doesn’t
0:36:52 matter because everything’s up
0:36:54 and to the right and I think I
0:36:55 was like happier in that like
0:36:57 winter period so I’m like oh man
0:36:59 like this is this is where we
0:37:01 become an amazing company long
0:37:02 term like this is where like you
0:37:04 know we prove ourselves and we
0:37:04 really step up and help our
0:37:06 customers we launch the next next
0:37:06 wave of products that really
0:37:07 matter
0:37:10 but I think I felt similarly to be
0:37:11 honest like you know having done
0:37:13 fintech since I don’t know 2011
0:37:17 like people you know that felt
0:37:19 early you know to be investing then
0:37:21 and then it’s like okay everybody
0:37:22 like you know found out that this
0:37:24 thing existed everybody became a
0:37:26 fintech investor from you know 2019
0:37:27 to you know 2021 and then
0:37:28 everybody’s you know some of the
0:37:29 best fintech investors in the world
0:37:31 like came out on podcasts were like
0:37:33 fintech is dead yeah I’m like I
0:37:34 think it’s dead everyone should go
0:37:35 home except for
0:37:38 right exactly like all the people
0:37:39 that use it you guys can leave and
0:37:41 just stop investing in fintech we we
0:37:42 will continue the fintech team is
0:37:43 still here you know despite the uh
0:37:45 the naming conventions the rebrand the
0:37:48 rebrand um the brand is and uh I
0:37:49 think that’s that’s actually
0:37:51 benefited us you know and I mean
0:37:53 selfishly but but I think it’s it’s
0:37:54 tested the people like the true
0:37:56 believers and um yeah in some ways
0:37:57 it’s brought the community together
0:37:59 I would argue yeah and and you know
0:38:02 the the the tourists go home like the
0:38:03 like and we saw it on our team even
0:38:05 like there were people that joined
0:38:08 Plaid in 2020 when the the music was
0:38:09 loud and it seemed like the industry
0:38:11 to be in and you know then they then
0:38:13 they’ve they’ve gone and chased the
0:38:15 next trend and the next trend and um
0:38:16 well well we’ll miss them and they’re
0:38:19 nice people um the people now that
0:38:20 are focused on it are like these are
0:38:21 the people like who really want to
0:38:22 be here in the long term like they
0:38:25 deeply believe in the mission um and
0:38:26 you know they’re they’re in it in the
0:38:28 way that we all want to be in it feels
0:38:31 great where are we now in the in the
0:38:33 cycle how should we think about this
0:38:36 moment early to mid-spring I would say
0:38:38 we see like green shoots like lots of
0:38:39 emergence it’s been a pretty good year
0:38:41 for for many parts of fintech and it’s
0:38:43 been a shaky year for others I mean if
0:38:45 you look at the lending markets you know
0:38:47 it’s it’s not as bad as last year but
0:38:51 it’s not as good as it was and um uh there
0:38:52 are elements of the economy that are
0:38:55 pretty scary and parts of like a large
0:38:58 part of of consumer spending is being
0:38:59 propped up by a small number of people
0:39:00 and so like there are all these things
0:39:02 that are scary but for the most part um
0:39:04 you know you continue to see companies
0:39:05 that are building very solid products
0:39:08 um you do see like great uh startups
0:39:11 emerging um but they they look a little
0:39:12 different than they used to like they’re
0:39:14 thinking more responsibly about markets
0:39:15 in the long term like they’re more
0:39:17 thinking about uh you know profitability
0:39:19 and growth and um you’re also seeing
0:39:23 like the insanity of of of AI funding
0:39:25 uh go on kind of like in AI land and
0:39:26 some of it’s starting to bleed into
0:39:27 fintech because you’re seeing these like
0:39:29 fintech AI uh products start to come so
0:39:31 um I would say spring like lots of
0:39:33 green shoots lots of exciting stuff um
0:39:36 still some you know still some snow in
0:39:38 the background that’s snow snow melt is
0:39:41 still happening um uh but uh looking
0:39:43 pretty optimistic right now also okay so
0:39:45 let’s let’s let’s wrap on just what is
0:39:48 2026 and the near-term future look like
0:39:49 uh David how we’re approaching it easy
0:39:52 it still feels like we’re in early
0:39:54 innings you know uh even spring in in
0:39:57 AI land as well um uh you know so just
0:40:00 incredibly excited and enthusiastic by the
0:40:02 momentum we’re seeing you know for again
0:40:04 largely software companies selling into
0:40:05 financial institutions that’s kind of
0:40:07 been our orientation in the fintech
0:40:10 ecosystem um you know again I said on
0:40:12 the on the board of a company called
0:40:13 moment which we you know described
0:40:16 earlier that is uh now bringing some
0:40:17 largest wealth management platforms
0:40:19 online you’ll see them you know they
0:40:22 announced LPL we have another a number of
0:40:23 other large institutions that we’ll be
0:40:27 announcing uh early next year um you
0:40:28 know companies like modern five which
0:40:30 have built uh you know bank to bank
0:40:31 deposit marketplaces that are really
0:40:34 starting to to grow and see significant
0:40:36 volume in that in that network um and
0:40:39 again just more more broadly um you know
0:40:41 really excited by the opportunity for AI
0:40:43 to actually do the work you know within
0:40:46 within these institutions and and the
0:40:47 momentum and excitement you know you know
0:40:49 there to adopt you know new products
0:40:51 and I know we’re excited David there
0:40:52 there because there’s there’s such great
0:40:54 customers or because they’re so they’re
0:40:55 so underserved because they’re they’re
0:40:57 they’re finally transitioning or or why
0:40:59 have we narrowed in on on that focus as
0:41:00 one that we’re particularly excited about
0:41:03 I mean look the industry is still massive
0:41:05 right like if you if I look back at at
0:41:07 even just Goldman Sachs and I now use
0:41:09 them as a as an example often but like
0:41:12 the the entire firm was uh you know they
0:41:14 call the kind of middle and back office
0:41:16 the the federation you know again these
0:41:18 were were folks living in Excel largely
0:41:20 not using Excel as a modeling tool but
0:41:22 using Excel to track work and so there’s
0:41:24 just such opportunity to build amazing
0:41:26 software products to solve everything
0:41:29 from you know compliance to payments to
0:41:31 treasury management to again all of the
0:41:33 kind of uh you know manual work that
0:41:34 goes into making the financial services
0:41:38 industry tick um and I think AI is again
0:41:40 creating kind of a new window and wedge
0:41:43 opportunity for entrepreneurs to kind of
0:41:44 you know build software companies that
0:41:46 that couldn’t have existed years ago and
0:41:49 and again I think the the appetite you
0:41:50 know for adopting new products and new
0:41:52 software to solve some of those problems is
0:41:55 is more real than ever because again the
0:41:56 most senior people at these institutions
0:41:59 uh you know can intuitively understand the
0:42:00 impact that AI is having on their business
0:42:02 and so I think there’s just a lot more
0:42:04 conversation and momentum happening at the
0:42:07 board level um you know and and it’s
0:42:09 making the enterprise sort of sales cycles
0:42:10 you know for for many of even our early
0:42:12 stage companies happen a lot faster than
0:42:14 than I’ve seen in in you know my experience
0:42:16 you know investing in this space
0:42:19 Zach how about you and how you think about
0:42:20 things that things that plaid and more
0:42:20 broadly
0:42:24 we this past year launched as I said the
0:42:26 the anti-fraud suite on protect uh called
0:42:29 protect and um tons and tons of acceleration
0:42:32 behind that uh we launched a credit score
0:42:34 a modern consumer credit score that’s based
0:42:35 on your income your expenses the things that
0:42:37 you do in your daily life so score goes up
0:42:40 if you have a higher income uh your score
0:42:42 goes down if you start having way higher
0:42:44 personal expenses like the logical credit
0:42:45 score so we launched that it’s called
0:42:46 then score we launched that last year
0:42:48 like these two things are going to be major
0:42:50 drivers for us in the coming years so um
0:42:52 distributing this this this new version
0:42:54 of a credit score um into all the lenders
0:42:56 and then of course on the protect side
0:42:59 like helping fight this this ai driven
0:43:01 financial fraud that we’re seeing um and
0:43:02 then for us like you know we’re we’re we’re
0:43:04 back to back to like hiring and recruiting
0:43:08 and and growing and um so you know uh
0:43:09 despite the fact that fintech has been
0:43:10 through these waves like I still think that
0:43:12 plaid is like one of the most amazing
0:43:14 places to work please tell tell tell all
0:43:16 your friends um if you want to work with
0:43:17 big data if you want to have have a huge
0:43:20 huge impact on consumers lives um uh
0:43:22 again financial freedom is the the core
0:43:25 focus of uh of what we do um uh and then
0:43:27 uh you don’t you want to have an
0:43:28 opportunity we try to think of ourselves
0:43:31 as like the most consumer sorry the most
0:43:33 customer-centric employer where you know
0:43:35 we put engineers in the customer so
0:43:36 they’re actually talking to them like
0:43:38 um we think it’s an incredibly fun way
0:43:41 to work um uh so like not for deployed
0:43:42 engineering but for a deployed company
0:43:45 um so you know tell all your fans we’re
0:43:46 hiring lots of people and uh i think
0:43:47 it’s going to be a great 2026
0:43:51 zach david you guys are pioneers in in in
0:43:53 the in the space in the category and i can’t
0:43:55 wait to have you both back in 2030 and we
0:43:57 can talk about how the how the space has
0:43:58 evolved uh thanks so much let’s do it
0:44:00 sooner yeah that’s like so that’s so far
0:44:02 away exactly we don’t even wait you know
0:44:03 that’s true we don’t have to wait every
0:44:05 five years uh zach david thanks so much
0:44:06 thanks for coming to the podcast great
0:44:12 thanks for listening to this episode of
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