Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

0:00:01 I’m a severe gambling addict.
0:00:03 Every single addiction is gambling addiction.
0:00:05 If you drink and drive, you’re gambling.
0:00:07 Addiction is one of those things you can’t apply logic to.
0:00:09 People are like, what are you running from, Dave?
0:00:11 And it’s like, well, I’m fucking running from myself, dude.
0:00:12 I don’t want to look in the mirror.
0:00:13 I don’t want to see myself.
0:00:14 I hate myself.
0:00:15 So I’m just running.
0:00:22 So as long as I’m like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just hopping on
0:00:29 a train, like literal running, like literally running to make sure I’m never sit still for
0:00:33 one second, like, what are you doing, Dave?
0:00:34 I’m playing drums in a band.
0:00:36 I’m, you know, at a casino.
0:00:38 I’m traveling, doing the news for Vice.
0:00:39 I’m painting at this.
0:00:43 Like, I can’t, I can’t sit still because that means I have to sit with myself.
0:00:44 And I can’t do that.
0:00:45 I can’t do that.
0:00:51 I couldn’t do that.
0:00:52 I couldn’t do that.
0:00:54 I can now.
0:00:59 Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for
0:01:00 everyday life.
0:01:09 I’m Andrew Huberman, and I’m a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School
0:01:09 of Medicine.
0:01:12 My guest today is David Cho.
0:01:13 David Cho is an artist.
0:01:18 He’s a highly accomplished painter, graffiti and street artist, writer, podcaster, and television
0:01:19 host.
0:01:23 Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original
0:01:26 Facebook offices, took equity for the job, and got rich.
0:01:28 Now, that’s a wild story.
0:01:33 But David’s whole life journey, what he did prior to and after that, and what he has overcome
0:01:35 along the way is a million times wilder.
0:01:40 As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that he was destined for greatness,
0:01:43 but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace.
0:01:50 Today, he talks with complete openness and vulnerability about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about
0:01:52 channeling and overcoming deep shame.
0:01:55 Today’s podcast is unlike any other that I’ve hosted.
0:02:05 David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success, then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along the way.
0:02:15 So, no matter who you are, David’s story, and just as importantly, how he’s living right now, how he shows up on this podcast, will change what you think is possible for you in life.
0:02:23 It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you to be the best human being you can possibly be.
0:02:28 David Cho is, as we say in science, an N of one, meaning there is no other like him.
0:02:36 Yes, because of his incredible art, but also for his willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow.
0:02:42 I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast, and frankly, it’s impossible not to love him.
0:02:46 This one is incredibly raw and honest.
0:02:49 It’s also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises.
0:02:51 So, buckle up.
0:02:56 Before we begin, I’d like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.
0:03:03 It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.
0:03:06 In keeping with that theme, today’s episode does include sponsors.
0:03:09 And now for my discussion with David Cho.
0:03:12 David Cho, welcome.
0:03:13 Thank you for having me, man.
0:03:15 Man, huge longtime fan.
0:03:17 Love your art.
0:03:20 I’ve been super inspired by your YouTube channel.
0:03:24 I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I prepare for a podcast.
0:03:25 What are you drawing?
0:03:29 I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some paintings.
0:03:33 So, I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong has been doing.
0:03:35 Musician at Leeds Center.
0:03:39 Is it anatomically correct or is it like exaggerated or is it?
0:03:40 This is a really good question.
0:03:44 So, in essence, it’s anatomically correct.
0:03:45 Yeah.
0:03:55 But around the turn of the last century, two guys, Cajal and Golgi, won the Nobel Prize for drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before.
0:03:58 And they stripped away everything except the essential piece.
0:04:00 I’m going to come paint with you.
0:04:00 Yeah.
0:04:02 I don’t like what’s happening in your painting studio.
0:04:03 Okay.
0:04:07 Just from what you said so far, it’s not good.
0:04:08 Okay.
0:04:12 But it’s good because you did that and then now we have to strip that away.
0:04:20 We have to get at the core of it because painting is – wait, weren’t you in the middle of complimenting me?
0:04:21 Like, keep going.
0:04:24 I mean, I love your YouTube channel.
0:04:28 I watch it before I prepare podcasts and before I paint or draw.
0:04:30 And I’m back to drawing a lot now.
0:04:33 And I live – I converted an art gallery into a living space.
0:04:37 And somehow I thought that that would make me more inspired.
0:04:40 But it turns out it does.
0:04:42 A lot of things do.
0:04:51 But I think the key with anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is can’t be too much detail, can’t be too little detail.
0:04:53 Otherwise, people are overwhelmed.
0:04:56 It’s the best thing for, I think, everyone.
0:05:02 But for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head, I always say the longest journey you’ll ever take in your life is from your head to your heart.
0:05:08 And to be an intellectual person, you just live a lot.
0:05:11 Like, you try to rationalize and apply logic to everything.
0:05:13 So painting is not that.
0:05:14 Music is not that.
0:05:15 Creating is not that.
0:05:17 It’s just to get to this.
0:05:24 And so for – but it sounds just in the little that you’ve explained that your painting is very methodical and which –
0:05:25 Super meticulous.
0:05:26 Yeah, we’re going to –
0:05:27 I want to include every cell type.
0:05:28 Yeah.
0:05:30 What’s your threshold for positive affirmations?
0:05:31 Can I go now?
0:05:32 Like you –
0:05:36 I mean, I like to think I have a thick skin, but who knows?
0:05:37 No, it’s all love.
0:05:38 Okay.
0:05:43 For anyone who’s watching or listening, this is my first time meeting Adam.
0:05:44 Andrew.
0:05:46 All good.
0:05:49 Yeah, all good.
0:05:49 All good.
0:05:51 You knew my last name, didn’t you?
0:05:51 You know what?
0:05:52 I was thinking about my friend Adam.
0:05:53 All good.
0:05:55 That you know, that I used to skate with, I think.
0:05:56 Adam Crone?
0:05:57 Yeah.
0:05:57 Yeah.
0:05:59 I was just thinking like –
0:05:59 Upper Playground.
0:06:00 Yeah, Upper Playground.
0:06:04 Yeah, he worked – his dad owns Crone’s Shoes in Palo Alto.
0:06:04 He worked there.
0:06:06 He wants to reconnect with you.
0:06:08 Man, Adam Crone and I grew up together.
0:06:08 Yeah, I was just –
0:06:09 He had a mini ramp in his backyard.
0:06:10 We hung out.
0:06:11 We skateboarded.
0:06:13 And then he started Upper Playground, the Walrus.
0:06:14 That’s it.
0:06:15 He’s your homie?
0:06:18 I used to work for – I did tons of graphics for Upper Playground.
0:06:19 Wow.
0:06:20 Does anyone call you Andy?
0:06:22 My skateboard friends call me Andy.
0:06:24 So, yeah.
0:06:25 But that’s it?
0:06:27 Like no one in the medical, like science world?
0:06:28 Not anymore, no.
0:06:28 Not really.
0:06:33 That would have like – you start your podcast and you do your – you’re like,
0:06:35 I’m Andrew Huberman.
0:06:35 I’m Andrew Huberman.
0:06:35 I’m a professor, yep.
0:06:39 Like I’m going to be all over the place because I’m nervous being here right now.
0:06:41 I hardly do podcasts anymore.
0:06:46 So, I’m going to be all over the place if that – it’s going to be sloppy.
0:06:47 This is your canvas, man.
0:06:48 Have fun.
0:06:49 Well, I’m just meeting you.
0:06:52 I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible.
0:06:55 I hate the black.
0:06:56 I hate it.
0:06:57 The studio?
0:07:03 Just you with the black t-shirt, the black mugs, the black – like I don’t like it for
0:07:04 you, you know?
0:07:08 Because I used to – I used to only wear black because I was like, ah, I’m a painter.
0:07:09 I’m always dirty.
0:07:12 I don’t want to like – you know, you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater and it’s
0:07:15 like, okay, that’s fine.
0:07:22 But I just – colors are very important in not just painting but like the palette for
0:07:34 your house or, you know, like most people talk about in the modern age, modern man is – you
0:07:36 know, and I just make shit up so you could correct.
0:07:37 You’re like the facts guy.
0:07:43 But I feel like most people, human beings alive today are going to die a very – it’s
0:07:45 mean to say boring but just the same death, right?
0:07:50 You’ll most likely die laying down in a bed or a hospice or in a hospital bed.
0:07:52 You know, it’s just like no one’s dying.
0:07:57 Like I know there’s other countries where there’s war and famine but I’m saying modern
0:08:00 cities, you know, like there’s not like a hero’s death, right?
0:08:05 So it’s just – it’s all the same and then you just – you know, the drive here in traffic,
0:08:10 it’s like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car and then you
0:08:15 get to their house and their house is a beige or a white and you’re just like, we only got
0:08:20 one of these, you know, whatever your views on the afterlife are but this is it.
0:08:21 This is it.
0:08:24 Like this is it and it’s just like people get mad of like, oh, I spilled paint on the
0:08:24 floor.
0:08:25 Like I got a scratch.
0:08:27 I’m like paint everything.
0:08:29 Paint your fucking car.
0:08:32 Paint and make your – my kids drew my sweater.
0:08:33 It’s my favorite – you know, like –
0:08:33 I like that sweater.
0:08:37 Paint – you know, so I walk in here and I go, fuck, dude.
0:08:39 Like – and I’m projecting on you now.
0:08:43 Like when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my life and I don’t know
0:08:48 where you’re at because I’m just meeting you but it’s like everything is black on black,
0:08:53 like black on the – black t-shirt, black mug, black and it’s like white t-shirt.
0:09:01 For my dream, my – selfishly, my dream is like this podcast would start instead of saying,
0:09:06 hey, I’m Andrew Huberman, like Stanford scientist that is just, hi, I’m Andy.
0:09:10 And then like you – can you Photoshop like a white t-shirt on?
0:09:12 I’d wear a white t-shirt.
0:09:13 I don’t know.
0:09:17 I don’t like black – for me, I have hardly ever black clothes anymore.
0:09:23 I want to add as much color because I just – maybe that’s the season I am in my life
0:09:24 or the time I’m in.
0:09:30 But yeah, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff.
0:09:35 I never thought I would be a YouTuber but that’s providing a lot of joy in my life.
0:09:40 And so I want to say to you, I’m meeting you for the first time.
0:09:47 I’ve never seen you clean shaven but I imagine – I mean, your beard and facial hair to me
0:09:50 look very cute and you’re very handsome.
0:09:58 Your voice, when I hear your voice, immediately is soothing and I feel like this is a very kind
0:09:59 person.
0:10:03 Like I – once again, without having – like now I’ve met you for like five minutes.
0:10:07 I’m like, oh, this guy is super awesome but, you know, like these kind of parasocial
0:10:13 relationships where I could go even – I don’t know how hard you want to go today but like
0:10:19 it’s like I meet people all the time and then I meet them and it’s like I’ve already met
0:10:20 you.
0:10:21 Like we’ve already talked.
0:10:27 I don’t know what your views on telepathy and spirituality and it’s like it’s just everyone
0:10:27 will meet.
0:10:31 Everything’s going to happen the way it’s going to happen and everyone’s going to meet who
0:10:31 they need to meet.
0:10:33 It’s like all energy, right?
0:10:35 You put this like – what?
0:10:38 You know, I could sit there and go, why does Andrew Hubern want to meet me right now?
0:10:41 And it’s like, well, what am I putting out in the universe and what is he putting out in
0:10:44 the universe and do the souls connect in that way, you know?
0:10:51 So I just want – I said if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how cute he is, how
0:10:59 soothing and relaxing and like there’s something very – this is the invisible ingredient in
0:11:04 like everything in art is, did the person care, right?
0:11:10 Like I don’t care how skilled and crafted, whatever, like did the person care?
0:11:16 And like when you do stuff in your voice, the tone, the frequency that’s hitting my soul is like,
0:11:18 oh, I don’t know everything that guy’s saying.
0:11:22 And he’s using some big words, but I feel like he cares.
0:11:37 And so I said if I ever meet you – and I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don’t know your whole backstory, but I’m like – also I project a lot and I make a lot of assumptions, which I’m – that’s a defect that I’m working on.
0:11:55 But I just wanted to say like, even though you had a horrific, traumatic childhood, like the fact that you’re here, you’re alive and that you’re doing all this good stuff, it like – it makes me emotional because I’m like, I don’t even know you and I appreciate what you’re doing.
0:12:02 You’re still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right?
0:12:24 So I think that’s it for now, but I just wanted to tell you all that because I feel that way about you and I, you know, I like – I’m a big – sometimes you feel stuff and you’re like, I’ll text it to them or maybe, you know, and I just go, no, if I feel that, I just want to – especially if it’s love and positivity.
0:12:31 I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating, but it’s because I like you.
0:12:38 Like I wouldn’t – if I didn’t – if I like – if I’m like, I don’t give a shit about this guy and I don’t want a relationship with, I would never say anything.
0:12:45 But I’m like, this – I don’t know what the science behind it, but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good, right?
0:12:48 It can’t – like just – we’re walking into a black hole right now.
0:12:50 Like, I don’t know.
0:12:52 Anyways, that’s what I wanted to say.
0:12:53 Oh, man.
0:12:55 Well, I’ll take that in.
0:12:55 Thank you.
0:12:57 A lot there.
0:12:58 Thank you.
0:13:00 Were you able to take it in?
0:13:01 Yeah, I was able to take in some of that.
0:13:02 All right.
0:13:07 When you call me Andy, it’s a different part of my persona just because that names carry a lot.
0:13:08 Oh, yeah.
0:13:09 Thank you for that.
0:13:15 I’m going to take that in and, you know, I get this little voice in my head that’s saying, I want to be very clear.
0:13:19 I had some rough aspects of my childhood.
0:13:22 I’ve made good amends with my parents, so we’re good now.
0:13:26 I say that to, you know, for all the reasons people can assume.
0:13:28 But here’s the thing.
0:13:32 I knew somehow that we’d eventually cross paths.
0:13:33 I just didn’t know when.
0:13:36 So you say the telepathy thing.
0:13:38 For me, I was a postdoc at Stanford.
0:13:39 That comes after PHE.
0:13:40 You do like five years.
0:13:41 It’s kind of like a residency.
0:13:43 And I’m from the South Bay.
0:13:50 And I didn’t want to go back to the South Bay because, as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay, a lot of interesting things come out of there.
0:13:55 But it was pretty devoid of the things that I like, which normally are in cities like art, live music.
0:13:56 It used to be like that.
0:13:57 Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto.
0:14:01 I saw Fugazi play at the Edge on California Avenue.
0:14:09 There was a lot of interesting things about Palo Alto, but it became very right angles when the tech industry really exploded there.
0:14:15 And in 2007, when I was a postdoc, was when you were muraling at Facebook.
0:14:16 I learned that later.
0:14:24 But that was a time when I was back there for my science career, and I was pretty miserable.
0:14:28 Being close to home again, honestly, I didn’t want to ever go back there for a while.
0:14:29 It was not healing.
0:14:36 But when I learned your story about muraling at Facebook and some of that, I was like,
0:14:44 oh, there was at least one other person here who was like in the kind of spiritual, emotional fight with what the South Bay is.
0:14:49 And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian McKay from Meyer Threat.
0:14:54 It turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that.
0:14:54 Of course.
0:14:56 And he had skated some of the same ditches we had.
0:15:00 And so there’s a history of people being really frustrated with being there.
0:15:03 Really good Vietnamese food.
0:15:04 Is there, really?
0:15:04 Yeah.
0:15:06 Oh, in Palo Alto or the South Bay.
0:15:06 Yeah, South Bay.
0:15:07 Oh, yeah, Castro Street, Mountain View.
0:15:08 Yeah.
0:15:09 And it’s changed a lot.
0:15:12 But take me back to 2007.
0:15:14 I don’t know how you feel about historical stuff.
0:15:17 Okay, so I’m definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that.
0:15:28 But because I’m older, I’m 49, and my attention span is just completely fried, I’ll just say right now I’m going to get a lot of dates wrong.
0:15:32 Like, I’m not, like, you know, things, people are like, that’s, you know, like.
0:15:38 2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay called the neck of University Avenue.
0:15:41 Right before it goes under the train tracks.
0:15:47 As soon as you’re on the other side of the train tracks, Caltrain, it becomes Palm Drive and it’s up to Stanford.
0:15:48 Okay.
0:15:53 So those offices now are Palantir, which catches a lot of heat for other reasons.
0:15:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:16:00 But those offices, right as you go under the train tracks, for us, there was a curb cut right there and there was a board slide thing.
0:16:02 And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing.
0:16:03 But then that was Facebook offices.
0:16:08 And years later, I heard David Cho was merely at Facebook.
0:16:09 So how did that come to be?
0:16:24 I’m going to be, like, very sloppy, like I said, and it’s maybe some of the stuff, because sometimes it’s the way I treat talking and journalism and podcasts is like, it’s like a story in my own head.
0:16:26 Someone else is like, just shut the fuck up and answer the question, right?
0:16:29 But, like, for me, when I paint, I don’t sketch.
0:16:30 I go straight to the finish.
0:16:47 And I, so sometimes I’m figuring out what I’m trying to tell you, because you asked me a question that’s very direct, but I, the way it went into my head was very abstract, because I’m, so if you let me do a little paint mixing, I hope I’ll answer your question.
0:16:52 But do you, do you know Pee-wee, Pee-wee, like, I’m wearing it today.
0:16:53 Do you know Pee-wee’s Playhouse?
0:16:55 I knew, oh, yeah.
0:16:56 I mean, obviously, yeah.
0:16:57 I met him, actually, once.
0:16:58 Paul Rubens?
0:17:05 Yeah, at a photo show of Mike Muller and Sage, who draws butterflies on Mike Muller’s sharks and animals.
0:17:05 Oh.
0:17:11 And Pee-wee Herman, in his thing, in his suit, the whole thing, walked up, Laird Hamilton was there.
0:17:11 Nice.
0:17:24 And he walks up to Laird Hamilton, there were a bunch of people around, everyone’s trying to get to Laird, trying to Laird, Laird’s like a, this was 2017, and I was in West Hollywood, and Pee-wee Herman walks up and he goes, I have to meet you.
0:17:29 And Laird’s like, and the best thing is, Laird just goes, oh, hello, what’s your name?
0:17:30 Like, typical Laird.
0:17:32 Like, Laird’s a real gentleman, always, you know.
0:17:34 He didn’t know who Pee-wee Herman was?
0:17:36 I couldn’t tell if he knew or not.
0:17:37 Oh, my God.
0:17:39 And he’s like, I probably wanted to meet you, this kind of thing.
0:17:39 Yeah.
0:17:41 And I was like, no way.
0:17:43 And he had the whole thing, like the shiny lips and the thing.
0:17:45 And I was like, that’s Pee-wee Herman.
0:17:46 Oh, that’s amazing.
0:17:47 I love that.
0:17:47 Yeah.
0:17:48 All right.
0:17:51 Well, I mean, I’m definitely going to have to tell you my Pee-wee Herman story at some point.
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0:20:48 For me, art as a kid growing up, like the trifecta, my holy trinity of children’s education, art
0:20:53 entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then of course Pee Wee Herman.
0:21:01 I mean, Pee Wee Herman had Lawrence Fishburne, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, like Danny Elfman.
0:21:07 He was like the ringleader of all this creativity, and he had like, mecca lecca hi, mecca hi-nie-ho.
0:21:10 Do you remember the secret word?
0:21:16 The secret word was like, if anyone our age that’s watching people’s playoffs, it was like,
0:21:21 today’s secret word is, I don’t know, what’s our secret word today, Rob?
0:21:22 Microphone.
0:21:23 Microphone.
0:21:27 And if someone says microphone, scream real loud.
0:21:29 So, can we do that today?
0:21:29 Sure.
0:21:30 All right.
0:21:31 I’m counting on you.
0:21:32 I want you to scream the loudest.
0:21:36 And you don’t take a pee until we take a pee.
0:21:38 You got an agreement on that?
0:21:38 Okay.
0:21:39 All right.
0:21:44 I hated the South Bay.
0:21:54 I hate, like, I just, I’m, I have all the typical artist traits.
0:21:56 I’m clinically depressed.
0:21:57 I’m bipolar.
0:22:05 I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholism.
0:22:09 Like, I don’t have, thank God, I don’t have any of the chemical addictions because I’m allergic
0:22:22 to everything, but severe OCD, severe antisocial traits, you know, I, I just, highly sensitive,
0:22:29 you know, so I, I just, coming here today, like, you asked me and I kept texting, like,
0:22:35 I don’t know, we did this, like, dance for a few months and I, if I’m just being honest
0:22:43 with you, like, I don’t, I don’t know how to not be me, you know, and sometimes, like,
0:22:50 I put a mask on and I, I, I’m like, I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today, but
0:22:52 I, you know, I didn’t even meet you yet.
0:23:01 And so every time I’ve done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like, I don’t know, I just feel
0:23:05 comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast, but anytime anyone else asks me, it’s
0:23:12 such a, I know who I am and sometimes I don’t and sometimes I figure that out and it’s, sometimes
0:23:16 you meet people on the street at pavilions or at the supermarket and they’re like, I, and
0:23:24 it’s like this parasocial thing where it’s like, I know you, I relate to you, I, and there’s
0:23:31 something about that where, you know, the intimacy of meeting another human being and
0:23:35 then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything and my parents aren’t
0:23:36 going to listen to this.
0:23:37 My brothers don’t listen to it.
0:23:42 Like, so in a weird way, like, you’re going to know more about me today than my own family.
0:23:46 So the parasocial thing is even, it’s real, right?
0:23:48 Like, placebo effect is real, like all these things.
0:23:53 So I, you know, I got here early.
0:23:59 I went for a walk down the, to those street and then it’s like just this beautiful view
0:24:02 of the ocean and I, I, it happens every time.
0:24:07 It’s like, it, it, it, I know what it makes me sound like.
0:24:11 It’s like, oh, this guy’s like very unstable and unhinged and I’m, I’d be the first to admit
0:24:14 it’s like, I cry all the time now.
0:24:19 Like, I don’t know what it, it was just like, maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the
0:24:23 way here, just knowing that I haven’t talked in a long time and there’s no upside for me.
0:24:31 And I told you that I was like, I go on these podcasts and I think, um, uh, Howard Stern,
0:24:37 like 15, 20 years ago and Joe Rogan, the multiple, multiple times I’ve been on a show, I think are
0:24:43 the only two radio shows, podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing everyone
0:24:44 else.
0:24:50 Every time you’ve ever heard me on any other podcast, it’s either severely edited or they
0:24:53 cut out huge chunks of it or they didn’t even air it at all.
0:24:58 So I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today.
0:25:04 And so there was something that went, you know, in the, the narcissistic traits where I’m like,
0:25:07 I’m the fucking greatest artist in the world to like, oh my God, I’m a piece of shit.
0:25:09 Like it just, you know, it’s just like this thing.
0:25:14 And before, when I was younger, it was like, everyone has to see everything.
0:25:20 Everyone has like, I think I’m so important that everyone has to see everything that I
0:25:25 create, painting, podcast, book, like whatever it is.
0:25:30 And then it went like my problem with my shit is it’s all or nothing.
0:25:32 So it’s hard for me to find the middle.
0:25:39 And so at this point now I’m like 49, I live a very quiet dad life.
0:25:44 You know, I’m a family guy and there’s just thousands of paintings no one’s ever seen.
0:25:49 There’s hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I’ve never put out.
0:25:50 There’s books I’ve written.
0:25:55 There’s TV shows, movies that I’ve made that it’s just, I don’t, before the ego and the
0:26:01 narcissist is like, you need to put this out because you’re important and everyone needs
0:26:02 to see how important you are.
0:26:08 And now the flip side to that, and maybe, maybe it’s not healthy either, is like, I know
0:26:08 who I am.
0:26:16 I’m comfortable with myself and I don’t, I don’t need, you know, I’m artificially blocked from
0:26:16 everything.
0:26:19 Like I, I’m, I don’t have my own password to my social media.
0:26:22 I don’t, I have blocks on my phone so I can’t access the internet.
0:26:26 So it’s like, I do put all these things in the place to like protect myself because I’m
0:26:28 a sensitive person.
0:26:35 So, um, you know, as an artist, there’s certain isms and, and story.
0:26:37 It’s like, Oh, starving artists.
0:26:38 You’re not going to make any money.
0:26:40 Like struggling artists.
0:26:43 There’s these stories that people say, and then you buy into them.
0:26:54 Um, but I had, um, I had a few teachers along the way that, um, influenced me that like,
0:26:57 you know, there’s like just certain moments happen in your life that live in your, your
0:26:58 head rent free.
0:27:00 And, uh, I have a lot of those.
0:27:05 And so one of the stories is, you know, I’m 49.
0:27:08 It’s like, you have to live in New York city.
0:27:10 If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere.
0:27:12 What the fuck am I doing in the four away?
0:27:15 Like, this is, what am I doing in Cooper team?
0:27:20 Like, like in my head, the story’s written that you’re a fucking, you know, and I hadn’t
0:27:20 done shit.
0:27:21 Right.
0:27:26 But in my head, I’m like, you’re a greatest artist ever in Gilroy.
0:27:28 You know, like what, you know what I mean?
0:27:33 No disrespect to the garlic capital of garlic fest, garlic ice cream, you know?
0:27:37 So there’s a story in my head that it’s like, I got to get to New York city.
0:27:38 Right.
0:27:44 Like I gotta, like, I couldn’t, I couldn’t get any like leeway in Los Angeles.
0:27:52 I’m born and raised in LA and I just, I couldn’t, you know, and, um, and so I, I, I, and now
0:27:59 I look back, if I do a inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity
0:28:03 in my life, it’s always found in the mundane.
0:28:06 It’s always found in cold temperatures.
0:28:08 It’s always found when there’s no wifi.
0:28:13 It’s always found, found in a suburb of, it’s, it’s like this story.
0:28:16 Like, I’m going to get to fucking New York and I’m going to be part of this move.
0:28:17 It’s never that.
0:28:22 Like, it’s nice to romanticize that, but it’s these moments of brilliance.
0:28:24 Like someone, whoever’s listening right now, they’re like, I got this.
0:28:26 And then I’m, there’s like a, and then I’m going to get to this.
0:28:28 And then I’m going to meet this person.
0:28:32 And I’m going to do, and it’s like, bro, I was fucking living in San Jose for seven years.
0:28:34 I met this wonderful lady.
0:28:38 She was my girlfriend for seven years, but like at that prime, I was 23.
0:28:50 And I was like, and for me, the stakes are so high because I, so one of the teachers was
0:28:51 my mother, right?
0:28:53 My mother is hardcore born again, Christian.
0:28:58 So science does not enter the picture, right?
0:29:00 It’s like blinders on.
0:29:02 And through her, I learned blind faith, right?
0:29:04 Jesus Christ, that’s it.
0:29:09 There’s no, there’s no, so wait, you’re telling me there was an actual arc with two animals
0:29:14 and all the two animals didn’t kill the other in the, you know, and there was an Adam and
0:29:15 there was a snake that talked.
0:29:17 It’s like, yeah, like no hesitation.
0:29:24 So she gave me that gift of like, like, hey, science, like facts.
0:29:27 No blind, like just, holy shit.
0:29:29 Like there’s nothing could falter.
0:29:32 And you’re like, you’re fucking stupid.
0:29:32 You’re ignorant.
0:29:36 Like, and she’s, but she’s not, she’s a bright woman.
0:29:38 And now I look back and like, I just met you.
0:29:40 You’re a brilliant guy.
0:29:43 And I sit here and I go, I know some of the smartest people on the planet.
0:29:46 You know, some of the smartest people on the planet and they’re all dumb.
0:29:48 They’re all like idiots.
0:29:49 You’re like, wait, you’re a genius.
0:29:50 You have photographic memory.
0:29:55 You created this company and you’d made some of the dumbest decisions I’ve ever, you know,
0:29:58 it’s like, it’s like, yeah, you’re really good at this,
0:30:01 but you don’t know relationships or you don’t know.
0:30:10 So, so my mom taught me through just not anything, but just watching her of just this absolute belief.
0:30:20 And, and one of her beliefs was your, my son, you know, this is some Jesus shit like me, who was like, how I explained this is fucking neurotic mess.
0:30:30 Like growing up in an unstable family and all that, got fucking molested, every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like just chaotic.
0:30:36 Cause they were working and then I was just like left out in the wild, abandoned, spiritual abuse, all this shit.
0:30:42 And she’s just like, in the same way she believed in God and Jesus.
0:30:46 She’s like, you’re the one, you’re the greatest artist.
0:30:48 And I’m like five years old.
0:30:49 I’m like, what the fuck are you talking about?
0:30:51 She’s like, no, one’s better than you.
0:30:53 No one’s better than you.
0:30:53 You’re the best.
0:30:56 You’re going to be the great, you know, your name’s David.
0:30:57 Like a lot of Koreans named after Bible.
0:30:59 She’s like, I named you after King David.
0:31:01 You’re going to be a King.
0:31:10 And I go, but now in hindsight, I’m like, and yes, King David beat Goliath, but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and like failed a lot.
0:31:12 You know, she didn’t tell me all that shit, you know?
0:31:16 So she’s, she’s raising me.
0:31:17 She’s brainwashing me.
0:31:18 It’s like, you’re the best.
0:31:19 You’re the greatest.
0:31:24 And then you, you know, I’ve met other artists where it’s like, everyone has their own paths.
0:31:26 Some become great because the parents are like, you’re nothing.
0:31:27 You’re a piece of shit.
0:31:28 You’re the worst.
0:31:30 You know, who the fuck do you think you are?
0:31:30 I had the opposite.
0:31:33 I had a mom just, it didn’t matter.
0:31:34 It didn’t matter.
0:31:37 Like, but mom, look at how horrible it’s like, you’re the greatest.
0:31:41 And so it’s like, at some point I, I hate myself.
0:31:44 I have like a solo, such a low self opinion on myself.
0:31:46 I’m, I’m just down on myself.
0:31:50 Just this kid, just constantly getting bullied and like the world just using me.
0:32:05 And, um, and I, and I’m like, of course she says that she’s my mom, you know, like, but she just brainwashed me into believing that I’m the best.
0:32:15 And I would, as a, as a trickster and a shape shifter, I would, you know, what most artists lack is like an ability to communicate with words.
0:32:17 That’s why they’re such brilliant artists.
0:32:25 And that’s why they can make great music and all this because they can’t, I can’t, you know, like, I’m going to probably talk to you for a few hours today and I’m going to leave here feeling misunderstood.
0:32:33 I’m going to be like, fuck, did I, because I’m not in the same way I can like translate what I feel in a painting.
0:32:37 It’s very like, it’s like when people describe like ayahuasca or something, they’re like, try to describe it.
0:32:42 And they’re like the words that you’re trying to look for don’t exist for what you just went through.
0:32:51 So that’s kind of the, why, why I get really self-judgmental, but I’m like this woman and then, you know, my dad, he loves me, but he’s like, he’s all right.
0:32:52 He’s okay.
0:33:09 You know, and I’d watch my mom who was just like a brutal business woman, you know, and, um, she would transform, you know, we, we, we, we, you know, I, I spent most of my life either poor or middle class, you know, like being wealthy came later.
0:33:15 But so, you know, we were on welfare a lot or businesses burned down in LA riots.
0:33:18 Like I saw my parents struggle a lot, you know, but then they would do good.
0:33:22 And they had the gamblers mentality, which a lot of Asians do.
0:33:35 And I have that too, which is just, I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that, uh, Asians have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women.
0:33:39 Like most women don’t have the gambling gene the same way men do.
0:33:57 So my mom would gamble like flipping houses or like not in a casino, but like just huge, like huge swings, which you’re like, I grew up with a fearless woman, you know, but so we wouldn’t have stuff.
0:34:06 But then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on like fake jewelries, cubic zirconium, because she’s about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money.
0:34:11 And just, just insane lying and, but hardcore Christian.
0:34:17 So like the hypocrisy there, like, I’m definitely, I’m trying to work on my own breaking out.
0:34:19 So it’s like, I’m going to be hypocritical in this interview.
0:34:25 And at the end, hopefully I’ll be able to correct any exaggerations that relies, but that’s a new tool that I have.
0:34:30 I used to just, you know, whatever for the story, you know, I lied to tell the truth, you know, all those things.
0:34:36 So I’d watch my mom transform from like a poor woman.
0:34:41 The mentality was, she’s like, my, I’m, my son is the greatest artist in the world.
0:34:49 And like, I’m, you know, I’m coming out of my Toyota hatchback with the broken window, you know, but I, when I go into this meeting right now, you’re not going to see that.
0:34:58 So she transformed herself into this rich, powerful woman and just like, get, like, I’m, I’m just sitting there, a kid in the corner watching this woman get what she wants.
0:35:02 I’m like, holy fuck, what the fuck was that performance?
0:35:07 And then just coming out and I’m like, but mom, that’s not like those things you said, that wasn’t real.
0:35:08 That’s not true.
0:35:10 And she’s like, yeah, they don’t need to know that.
0:35:15 And I’m like, but we just went to church and we learned the 10 commandments and you’re not supposed to lie.
0:35:17 And it’s just like all this like confusion.
0:35:36 And then I meet, uh, Sean Parker who, uh, you know, just the sweetest kid, you know, just, uh, he started emailing me right when he started Napster and goes, I wish I have all the emails.
0:35:42 I keep, I keep certain emails and voice messages and I just, I just, that’s my own nostalgia.
0:35:49 But like, I have a, I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, thank you for getting me into watercolors.
0:35:53 And I was like, dude, my fucking hero, like, yes.
0:35:54 Like, it’s such a good feeling.
0:35:59 Um, I have a voice message from Pee Wee Herman, which I’ll share later.
0:36:16 And all my early emails with Sean Parker, I kept just cause it was, he’s such an interesting, like wonderful, I know like the image of him, but like I, I, we don’t talk like as, like we used to, but I still consider him a friend and I’m forever grateful to him.
0:36:33 But, so he, I met him at a time when, like, I mean, I don’t even know how to, I mean, like just complete disgrace and shame to my family.
0:36:35 You know, it’s like the immigrant story.
0:36:37 Talk to any immigrant.
0:36:41 Why the fuck did you leave your home to come to another country?
0:36:42 Because it was shitty there.
0:36:43 That’s it.
0:36:46 You’re not born in a country and you’re like, dude, let’s leave.
0:36:46 Right?
0:36:52 The only reason why anyone’s here is cause it was shitty where you were at.
0:36:52 Right?
0:36:57 So then they all, it doesn’t matter if you’re Asian or Mexican, whatever.
0:36:58 You came here for a better life.
0:36:59 And what does that mean?
0:37:01 Work your ass off.
0:37:04 So we are, we’re in a nation of workaholics, right?
0:37:06 This is an entire country of workaholics.
0:37:12 So my parents, you know, I didn’t go through it, but they’re like, Japanese tanks rolled down the street.
0:37:16 And, you know, they have the typical, like, fucking war, famine, all that stuff.
0:37:17 So they get over here.
0:37:25 And like, born and raised in Los Angeles, you know, it’s like, don’t know who I am.
0:37:26 Don’t know where I belong.
0:37:29 Just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over.
0:37:37 And just, I didn’t even really know the concept of suicide, but I hated myself.
0:37:42 Like, I couldn’t live in my, like, it felt like I was burning inside my own body.
0:37:49 And so, um, even made fun of like, like, I listened to, we, we have the same taste in music.
0:37:51 I listened to Minutemen, Minor Threat.
0:37:58 You know, I’m blasting, uh, Downset, Inside Out, Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozers.
0:38:09 I used to put on Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozers, punch myself as, like, just, like, I’m in my room, a teenager, just punching myself as hard as I can, just to, like, go into, like, a berserker rage.
0:38:15 Um, and I, and I just, back then, like, I found pornography and it was just so soothing.
0:38:17 Like, it was, like, getting high.
0:38:20 Like, I would just masturbate, like, over and over again.
0:38:27 So, I’m, I’m, like, masturbate, but I would do, like, weird self-harm, I guess the kids call it edging.
0:38:32 But I’d masturbate, but then not come and then beat myself up.
0:38:39 And I’m going through puberty, and I would go out and I’d shoplift, uh, spray cans, like, just, at, you know, hardware stores.
0:38:48 And I’m listening to, uh, you know, I would get, like, a Faith No More, like, In Living Colors, just, like, some, some song.
0:38:51 And I would just, like, an OCD, just repeat, like, some lyric in it.
0:38:54 I am a patient, boy.
0:38:58 And I would just, like, go into, like, a trance, and I would just go out and I would just fucking spray paint.
0:39:01 And I’m living at home, so I’m not hiding this shit.
0:39:03 I’d come home, my hands covered in black paint.
0:39:07 This is what we fucking came to this country for?
0:39:13 This is what, why we, we fucking left another country so you could come here and not be an artist.
0:39:16 But, dude, like, you’re a disgrace.
0:39:18 You’re a disgrace to our race.
0:39:22 You’re, you know, and my dad would just, like, fucking throw me against the wall.
0:39:26 And I’m, like, I don’t care, dude.
0:39:28 I don’t care what you’re, like, do you understand?
0:39:31 Like, I wasn’t, like, actively trying to kill myself.
0:39:36 But I didn’t, like, do you understand that everything you care about, I don’t care?
0:39:38 Do you get that?
0:39:40 And, like, you know, you start the show.
0:39:46 And I was laughing because it’s, like, hey, I’m Andrew Huberman, scientist, Stanford.
0:39:49 And I’m, like, I don’t care.
0:39:51 Like, I like, I like Andy.
0:39:53 Like, I like that, you know?
0:39:54 And then I was, like, you know what?
0:39:56 This is, like, Stolen Valor.
0:40:02 Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg.
0:40:03 You know, I’m there at the beginning.
0:40:07 And so he brings me in.
0:40:12 And at the time, when I first, this is years, the emails back and forth.
0:40:18 He’s, like, I need, because the energy I was putting out at the time was what I’m telling you right now.
0:40:20 Just, I don’t give a fuck.
0:40:22 I don’t care what you care about.
0:40:25 Like, I don’t, like, it’s just complete.
0:40:27 I don’t care if I go to jail.
0:40:29 I don’t, like, I’m just painting on everything.
0:40:30 And it’s, like, graffiti?
0:40:32 Graffiti is vandal.
0:40:33 It’s not an art.
0:40:35 It’s not a graffiti artist or street art.
0:40:36 It’s fucking vandalism.
0:40:37 It’s a crime.
0:40:42 And people are telling me, anyone out there doing street art, like, there’s so many rules.
0:40:45 There’s so many, like, what did you write?
0:40:46 Did you used to tag it or anything?
0:40:47 No, but I did.
0:40:48 Shut up.
0:40:50 If you skated, you definitely had, like, a.
0:40:52 There were some kids in our crew.
0:40:53 Cubes?
0:40:54 No.
0:40:55 What did you tag?
0:40:55 Come on.
0:40:59 No, because I had friends who were, like, graffers, and they were, they, like, boxed us out.
0:41:01 You know, the Undershadows kids.
0:41:02 You never did graffiti?
0:41:03 No, but we can talk about this later.
0:41:05 I want to hear from you now.
0:41:11 But later, we should talk about Orphan and the Undershadows crew, which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area.
0:41:12 Yeah, yeah.
0:41:12 I heard of them.
0:41:14 Yeah, he was a good friend of mine.
0:41:16 But anyway, I didn’t graffiti.
0:41:16 Okay.
0:41:18 But I drew on my grip tape.
0:41:19 All right, that’s good.
0:41:21 But no, I wasn’t a tagger.
0:41:22 I wasn’t a graffiti guy.
0:41:25 Yeah, so I’m out doing, like, that.
0:41:33 And, you know, like, you know, we can have, like, a conversation about creativity and this and that.
0:41:40 And it’s like, I can’t, it’s, it’s very hard to talk about, it’s because it’s like, can you teach a craft?
0:41:41 Can you teach a skill?
0:41:43 Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa?
0:41:43 Yeah.
0:41:44 I know how to do all that.
0:41:47 I know how to, like, I went to school.
0:41:48 Like, I taught myself.
0:41:49 I watched videos.
0:41:54 Like, you could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something.
0:41:56 That’s a teachable skill.
0:41:58 But creativity, where does that come from?
0:41:59 Are you just born with it?
0:42:01 Is it from deprivation?
0:42:06 It’s like, it’s like a, you know, I could, I can only share what my path, my path is.
0:42:16 And it’s like, the embarrassment, like, you’re Asian, you need to get a 4.0, you need to get into UCLA, you need to be a doctor or a lawyer.
0:42:24 And it’s like, me, my, I’m on the middle child, me and my two brothers, like, long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk.
0:42:26 Why are you doing that white shit?
0:42:32 You know, like, and then you’ve got Asian kids that are into heavy, you know, it’s like, there’s no identity, right?
0:42:48 And then, it’s just like, lost, just like, what the fuck is, you know, like, we don’t belong anywhere, just, like, the Asian depictions in media is like, long duck dong, Asians have small dicks, they can’t drive, they’re good at math, it’s just, nothing’s good, right?
0:42:53 And I’m like, I, you know, I’m just trying to figure out my way in this world.
0:43:06 And I remember, Sean just was attracted to, like, whatever, whatever little art, I’d start getting some noticed and juxtaposed, and I was starting to do graffiti everywhere.
0:43:13 And, and he’s like, I want that, whatever that is, I want that, like, I want to be part of that.
0:43:21 And I said, and I forgot what my painting, it was, it was like, right when I couldn’t sell a painting, and then all of a sudden, they were selling for a couple thousand.
0:43:34 And he’s like, and he was a teenager still, and he goes, my, my, I want your art, but the problem is, I’m being sued right now for a trillion dollars, because every single song is a, is a lawsuit, you know?
0:43:46 I mean, whatever, he, it ended up the way it ended up, but I remember he goes, I’m getting, he showed me a screenshot or whatever, he’s like, I’m being sued for one trillion dollars right now, so I can’t really afford your art, but, like, I’m gonna get it, you know?
0:44:01 So we, we started this relationship, and he would send me these crazy, like, abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to paint, and then, and then he started another company called Plaxo, and he’s like, no, no, and then finally,
0:44:20 You’re catching me in the South Bay, you know, I met this girl, we fell in love, and I moved to San Jose, just the most culturally dead place, and everyone’s, like, rollerblading, working at Apple, or MySpace, or eBay, or, you know, some, some tech startup,
0:44:33 And they’re like, we’re cool, because we have a trampoline, and a, you know, we have a, like, a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want, and we have bunk beds, so we, and, like, that’s all so you can just keep working, you know?
0:44:44 And so I meet Sean, and he’s like, dude, we’re starting this company called Facebook, and, like, we finally have some money, and, like, dude, this is, and he’s like, where are you at?
0:45:08 And he didn’t know all this, but I had just gotten out of prison, I was in jail in Japan, because I had beaten up an undercover security guard, I was 27 when I got out, and I owed everyone money, I owed my girlfriend money, I owed, and so I needed money bad, and I was in, like, a lot of trouble, I, like, was, I didn’t know how, how I was gonna pay everyone back, because it’s really hard to sell a painting, you know?
0:45:23 But my paintings did sell once in a while, and they were starting to get pretty expensive, and then all the art that I did in jail, I used to work for Vice magazine, I say work, because, but I never got paid, but, you know, I, I…
0:45:24 They didn’t pay you?
0:45:37 No, I, I think people, if anyone’s listening, there’s a little side tangent, is, and it’s gonna definitely sound like OCD, like I’m keeping a list, and maybe I am, because I don’t think about it, but…
0:45:39 And I, I, I was sitting the other day, and I go,
0:45:58 they all owe me money, everyone I’ve ever worked for, like, like, people, like, I gotta get paid, like, someone develops a skill, like, I’m good at songwriting, or, or this, or that, and, and then they go, well, I gotta, like, the young people’s men, like, well, that’s my craft, I gotta get paid, I go, I never got paid.
0:46:15 I work for Nike, Levi’s, Ruka, Giant Robot, Vice, fucking, even my friend, Steve Aoki, and, like, just all, every, like, 88 Rising, if I sit here, I’ll name everyone, but, like, either they didn’t pay me my, what they said,
0:46:30 or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me, or, or they just never paid me, you know, and I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice, and he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot, he saw that I went to the Congo, he saw, like, and he’s like, hey,
0:46:57 and it was all punk rock, Vice, when it was, like, the big format, and he’s like, dude, and he just believed in me, I don’t know what he saw, he’s like, dude, send me a, um, a drawing of cops beating up this, and, and I, and I did it fast, I did, he’s like, I need it by tomorrow, and I was like, I can do it, and then he’s like, he just was like, hey, uh, write me a story about some shooting in LA, Koreatown gangster shit, and I go, but I’m not, he’s like, just, just do it,
0:47:24 and at one point, that was another figure that was, resonated my mom of, like, the rules, reality doesn’t apply, I’m sitting there going, wait, but I’m not a journalist, I didn’t fact check anything, and there was some issues of Vice, where I wrote five different articles under a woman’s name, a black guy’s name, you know, like, just made up names, articles, just to fill up pages,
0:47:44 and I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, uh, street, you know, fashion, you know, the do’s and don’ts, and I’m just like, you can do that, and like, I, I had already been groomed for that, because of my mom, it’s like, no, reality doesn’t apply, you just,
0:48:07 my mom thinks I’m the best artist, and now, here’s, you know, so Sean’s like, okay, and, and so I’m, I’m in, what I feel is like, purgatory, the 408, San Jose, Milpitas, you know, I’m just like, what the fuck is this, like, and I’m telling myself, I gotta get there, when I get to New York, it’s like this Golden Gate, like, end of the Golden Road, like, Wizard of Oz, like, when I get there,
0:48:17 then someone’s, I’m gonna get discovered, and then someone’s gonna be like, and, and, um, cause what is it? You know, like, what, like, people are like, what is, and I go,
0:48:45 I am a, like, I can be a hater, I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person, I could be like, a very hard, judgmental hater to myself, and, and so, I take this so seriously, like, what we’re doing here today is talking, I mean, it’s mostly me talking, I could see that, but it’s like, we’re having a conversation, but I think, without sounding, it’s like, I, I think it’s important, that’s why I’m here, like, I,
0:49:11 like I said, like, I’m like, why, I, I feel like I trust you, even though I just met you, but, like, yeah, I fucking puked down the street, because I get, I go, what’s the upside? Like, I’m gonna talk, and then maybe I say something that I didn’t mean, or I say it the wrong way, or it gets clipped weird, or edited, and I go, and I go, I think it’s important, I, I wanna come, I wanna talk to you, and I, and that’s how I feel about my art, so, what is that? What is art? What is creativity? And, and for me, it’s, like,
0:49:31 I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding, like, I, if I never played sports, I would have never seen another man’s penis, you know, like, and then, in my time in sports, it was very rough, because I wasn’t, I tell, I told myself, any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing,
0:49:49 I suck at drawing, and I go, why did you do that? Why did you immediately shoot yourself, like, who, who said that? Did someone else say that, or did you say that? They got, they, they start with saying something negative, and I go, and then, and then, I go, that’s exactly what I say if they try to teach me how to throw a free throw. I go, oh, this is gonna suck, and they go, why did you do that?
0:50:03 And so, for me, growing up, I grew up with, in a lot of black neighborhoods, where, the second, you know, I don’t know how to play basketball, but the second I try, and I fuck up, it’s like, look at the Chinese kid, fucking try, and then, so I go, all right, you know what, I’m not even gonna try, you know?
0:50:34 And it’s like, well, you should have just come at, like, five in the morning, when no one was there, you know, but, like, I was so sensitive, I was like, I don’t wanna, so I did things, in the, you know, it’s, art is a solitary sport, for the most part, you know, I’m not, there’s no Rob there, it’s just me, like, like, even in the thing, it’s like this, like, don’t look at my sketchbook, and, but in here, I can fuck up, and fix, erase, whatever, but, so, like, in sports,
0:51:03 you know, it’s like, you’re slapping guys’ asses, you’re taking showers with them, you’re, you’re doing all this, like, male bonding stuff, you’re just spending a lot of time with other men, right, like, and I’m like, oh, God, like, what is the feeling, I’m trying to isolate the feeling, what, like, what, and I remember, because I, I don’t, like, I tell this stuff not to be, like, feel sorry for me, I’m a victim, I don’t feel like that, I mean, this, I’m just, I’m just telling you.
0:51:33 I’m like, I’m telling you, I’m telling you what happened, and part of it is, you do, like, what, what would you rather, would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes, or have the whole world read your diary, you know, like, these kind of, and, and luckily, I had both happen, you know, I’ve been beaten to an inch of my life, I’ve had, like, I’ve had broken bones, I’ve been stabbed, I’ve been burned, I’ve been, like, everything physically you can think of, and, and I’m still here, right, so there’s not much,
0:51:49 like, I, I, in, like, because I have my mom’s delusion, like, when I talk to Joe, and he’s shorter than me, but I, I, I know he could probably, like, logically, I know he could probably kick my ass, I have no fighting background, but in my head, I’m like, I’m pretty sure I could kick his ass,
0:52:03 and he would fucking, and, and I, that’s just the way I walk through life, like, like, I still believe in Santa Claus, people go, I can’t believe I just said that, I don’t, I think that’s the first time publicly I’ve ever said that.
0:52:06 We’re coming up on, uh, no, I know, you know, Christmas.
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0:53:40 I just remember there’s, I don’t know, it’s changed now, but I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, there’s no fucking Santa.
0:53:44 But I was eight and I was like, and they’re like, how dumb are you?
0:53:47 And I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus.
0:53:52 And they go, but you’ve literally never got any presents from Santa.
0:53:55 And I’d go to shame, I go, because I’m a bad kid.
0:53:58 I cussed, I was like, I stole stuff from the supermarket.
0:54:03 And they’re like, hey, fuck face.
0:54:05 Santa’s not real.
0:54:09 And I just was like, but he is.
0:54:10 I believe that he is.
0:54:19 And I believe I go, there’s, there’s him not giving me a present is like, because I put him in this God category.
0:54:23 Maybe he’s not God, but maybe he’s a God, like a demigod or something.
0:54:27 And they go, how is he, how does he know if you’re naughty or nice?
0:54:29 I go, telepath.
0:54:34 How does he, how does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time?
0:54:35 I’m like, oh, he’s a mutant.
0:54:35 He can multiply.
0:54:37 He can make copies of himself.
0:54:40 How does he get through that tiny chimney?
0:54:40 I go, teleport.
0:54:42 Like, I just, it’s not even a question.
0:54:44 I just know, I believe it.
0:54:50 And I don’t care how stupid you think, like, I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus,
0:54:51 but it’s just like, I just believe that.
0:54:55 And you can’t say anything to make me not believe that.
0:54:57 That’s my blind faith that I got from my mom.
0:55:00 So like every Christmas, I’m 50, I’m almost 50.
0:55:05 I’m a fucking middle-aged man that, and I go, maybe, maybe this is the year I’m going to.
0:55:11 But now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything.
0:55:12 Right.
0:55:23 So I’m sitting there, and I’m drawing, but I have that story in my head, too.
0:55:23 Like, I suck.
0:55:25 Oh, fuck, that doesn’t look like Batman.
0:55:27 Oh, his arm looks weird, you know?
0:55:36 And then at some point, to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, sorry, just the
0:55:38 physical pain, like, it passes.
0:55:39 I’ve broken bones.
0:55:42 I’ve had my face just pummeled.
0:55:44 I’m, like, just, where you wouldn’t reckon, disfigured.
0:55:47 And, but it passes, and if I think back, I don’t remember it.
0:55:52 But the pain that stays is, like, heartbreak, you know, betrayal, abandonment.
0:55:59 And I just remember, my dad would make us keep a journal, because he just wanted us to start
0:55:59 learning how to write.
0:56:05 And it started with, if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review.
0:56:09 And it was, like, we were eight years old, seven years old, just, you know.
0:56:11 Today, we saw Karate Kid.
0:56:14 Johnny got chased by skeletons.
0:56:15 The end.
0:56:17 You know, it was, like, a little kid, you know.
0:56:19 But he’s, like, you have to do it.
0:56:22 Goonies was cool, you know, so we kept the thing.
0:56:25 But then, he never asked to read it.
0:56:26 He just wanted us to do it.
0:56:27 And I was, like, oh.
0:56:30 So, I started, like, getting more brave.
0:56:33 I was, like, I really like this girl at school.
0:56:39 And, like, and I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing,
0:56:43 because my brothers don’t give a shit, like, but then the thought of, like,
0:56:44 what if someone ever read this?
0:56:51 So, I was, like, opening myself up and just letting, and I was, like, oh, my God.
0:56:52 Like, it felt so good.
0:56:59 Like, like, I can’t tell anyone, like, I’m having these kind of feelings or, like, you know,
0:57:02 like, I fucking hate dad, you know, like, you know, whatever.
0:57:07 And I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under there.
0:57:09 And I shared a room with my brother.
0:57:12 So, I always did it when he, you know, I thought I was being secretive.
0:57:16 And I was somewhere between seven, eight, nine.
0:57:22 I, it just, you know, as you get better at writing and I, I got more, once I got more comfortable
0:57:24 knowing that no one, I just started writing everything.
0:57:27 Like, my brother fucking farts smell.
0:57:29 Like, I wish, you know, just, like, everything I would write.
0:57:30 Just, just completely.
0:57:37 And I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it.
0:57:42 And it, I remember my face just, like, it felt so hot.
0:57:46 Like, like, I felt like someone had just, like, ultimate betrayal.
0:57:50 And, and it was, like, being naked.
0:57:55 That’s why I bring up the, like, I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys
0:57:56 showering, like, slapping.
0:57:58 Like, it was the most vulnerable.
0:58:01 Like, they were being so merciless.
0:58:03 Ha, ha, ha, you like her and you did that.
0:58:07 I can’t believe you, you know, because I wrote everything in that journal.
0:58:11 And I, I thought I, I was going to die from shame and embarrassment.
0:58:16 And they, you know, like, the way kids are, brothers can be, it was merciless.
0:58:18 And they made fun of me for years for that.
0:58:25 And in the same way my face was disfigured and I’ve had physical abuse and all that, I lived
0:58:25 through it.
0:58:28 And I was like, I’m still here.
0:58:34 And so, why the fuck am I going to be a pussy when I draw?
0:58:40 When I draw, no more, like, I’m going to draw Batman like this artist or that artist.
0:58:43 Oh, I’m going to draw, like, you know, like, okay, that’s fine.
0:58:47 You’re, like, trying to figure out how to work with tools.
0:58:48 But, and that’s fine.
0:58:49 Skill, craft, great.
0:58:59 But, like, this, like, showing you, like, so there’s, I had been trained now for heartbreak.
0:58:59 Right?
0:59:06 Like, a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected, and
0:59:11 then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, yes, we like that.
0:59:12 And so, they never grow.
0:59:16 They do that same verse, that same flow forever.
0:59:20 And then you got people like Andre 3000, they’re like, I don’t care, I’m going to, I don’t care
0:59:21 what, you know, I’m going to do flute shit.
0:59:23 It’s like, well, we don’t like that.
0:59:24 And it’s like, I don’t care.
0:59:25 I’m an artist.
0:59:28 I’m going to, you got someone like Flea who’s like, I’m going to just do performance art.
0:59:32 And I’m like, I don’t even like half that shit, but I just love them because they’re,
0:59:35 and I go, how fucking brave is that?
0:59:37 How brave is that?
0:59:43 But I remember just to this day, right?
0:59:46 I am a very successful, established artist.
0:59:50 And yet today, there’s people that are like, that’s the fucking worst art I’ve ever seen.
0:59:53 That’s the, that’s, and I, and I, and I go, cool.
0:59:57 Like, but, but if you don’t have that background.
1:00:05 background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself
1:00:09 out on a camp, like to pour your, that’s you, that’s your soul.
1:00:13 And someone’s like, and then especially if you’re trying to sell it, like, no, thanks.
1:00:14 You know?
1:00:21 Um, so to have a guy like Sean Parker, who’s younger than me, but just not even the art.
1:00:24 He’s just like, I like you, like whatever that is.
1:00:28 And then I want to change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg.
1:00:36 And so I meet him with his flip-flops and then, you know, I meet the whole crew and I, and I go,
1:00:36 what do you want me to do?
1:00:39 And he’s like, I want you to fucking paint everything.
1:00:40 I want people to be scared.
1:00:42 I want investors to be scared.
1:00:45 When I want everyone to just be like, we’re not my space.
1:00:46 We’re not eBay.
1:00:49 We’re not, I want them to be horrified when they come in here.
1:00:52 I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, like everything.
1:00:55 And I go, indoors, right?
1:00:56 And he goes, yeah.
1:00:57 And I go, all right.
1:00:59 So just like cover up your computers.
1:01:02 And then they’re like, no, we’re going to, we’re going to be working here.
1:01:07 And I’m like, you know how toxic these chemicals, like I work in spray paint.
1:01:09 Like I have brain damage because of this shit.
1:01:11 Like I, I have like memory issues.
1:01:12 They’re like, we don’t care.
1:01:13 We’re, you know, they’re like young.
1:01:15 They’re like, fuck the world.
1:01:15 Hack the world.
1:01:16 Like all that shit.
1:01:17 Hack the world.
1:01:19 They love, you know.
1:01:24 So I was there and they would be like, let’s fucking blast Daft Punk.
1:01:28 Like I don’t, this is a world I’m not, you know, I like going into different worlds.
1:01:30 And they’re like, we’re going to blast Daft Punk.
1:01:33 Because I guess it’s like something with the repetitiveness and the Cody.
1:01:37 And we’re going to do these hackathons where we just fucking hack into shit and fucking.
1:01:39 It was punk rock.
1:01:41 It was like a very nerdy punk rock.
1:01:42 But they’re like, we don’t give a fuck.
1:01:44 Like, and I like that spirit.
1:01:46 But they were such nerds.
1:01:47 And they were so earnest.
1:01:53 There was a, you’ve never heard people talk like that where they’re talking about like, and we’re going to change the world.
1:01:56 And I’m like, I’m into that, whatever that is.
1:02:02 And they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email.
1:02:04 I go, I, I, I, cause I’m not on social media.
1:02:06 Like I never, I’m a Luddite.
1:02:11 I don’t, I’m the last to whatever new technology.
1:02:11 I’m like, all right.
1:02:13 Like I’ve never touched AI, any of that.
1:02:21 And, and so I was like, you guys are trying to be like my space, but my space is, it’s already here.
1:02:24 Like for the young people listening, like there was no Facebook.
1:02:25 There was no Instagram.
1:02:26 It was my space.
1:02:27 It was just dominated.
1:02:33 And they’re like, yeah, but we’re, we’re fucking my space for Ivy league, you know.
1:02:34 Oh, that’s right.
1:02:35 In 2007.
1:02:35 That’s right.
1:02:37 Cause that was a postdoc in order to get Facebook.
1:02:41 You had to have an Ivy league or a Stanford email.
1:02:45 So you’re not the only one motherfucker stolen Valor.
1:02:47 So I love it.
1:02:48 So I forgot what it was.
1:02:50 It was like Chowy at Stanford edu.
1:02:52 And, but like, I remember he gave it still exists.
1:02:54 I don’t know.
1:02:56 He’s he, I remember him giving it to me.
1:02:57 Like it’s something I wanted.
1:02:59 I was just painting.
1:03:01 He’s like, Dave, you don’t have to go.
1:03:03 I’ll get, I’ll get you a Stanford email and then you could be part of Facebook.
1:03:06 I’m like, I don’t want to be, I don’t, I don’t care.
1:03:11 I don’t care what you, like you want to be you and Mark and all these guys want to be
1:03:14 in this, like, and they’re like, he was like confused.
1:03:24 Cause he’s like, you don’t want the, whatever, like respect and whatever comes with having
1:03:25 a Stanford.
1:03:28 And I go, no, I hate education.
1:03:29 I hate learning.
1:03:30 I hate teachers.
1:03:32 I hate like, what the fuck are you talking about?
1:03:37 And he, he was like, I go, why don’t you just make it for everybody?
1:03:41 And he’s like, oh, like, you know, the thing is.
1:03:44 Like, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out.
1:03:48 Cause it’s just an awesome movie, but it’s just, I was there for all of it and just did
1:03:52 not like some of the facts are right, but it, it just didn’t go down that way, you know?
1:04:05 But so, so, so Mark is like a genius and, and, and Sean, I mean, similar to my mother, it’s
1:04:07 like, I think Naomi’s still there.
1:04:12 It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just like gassing them out.
1:04:16 They’re just trying to code like, and I’m like listening to all their conversations and
1:04:18 I’m like telling them how nerdy they are.
1:04:21 I’m like, bro, make it for everybody.
1:04:26 Don’t, you know, like, and they’re like, and I would listen in on all their conversations.
1:04:28 They’re like, ah, so fucking cool.
1:04:29 Dave chose painting our office.
1:04:33 And I was like, oh, they like me, you know, like I’m, I’m being validated, not just by my
1:04:34 mother, you know?
1:04:41 Um, and so, you know, I, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know?
1:04:46 And at that time I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand and it was like
1:04:47 a fluke.
1:04:51 And that’s another story that I could tell about rejection and all that.
1:04:55 But, um, so I just, I just did some dumb, ignorant math.
1:04:57 I was like, well, that painting was this big.
1:05:00 And I was like 60 grand, you know?
1:05:02 And I needed that, that I needed that to pay off everyone.
1:05:10 And then at the time up until going to jail, like I had been a thief.
1:05:17 I was doing a lot of stealing to support my, like, I was like, I’m graffiti doesn’t pay
1:05:17 the bills, you know?
1:05:18 Stealing your paint.
1:05:19 Stealing everything.
1:05:22 Was Facebook office painted with stolen cans?
1:05:22 Probably.
1:05:23 Yeah.
1:05:23 Probably.
1:05:25 Um, yes.
1:05:26 Yes.
1:05:26 Yeah.
1:05:31 Um, my, my graph friends, graph graffiti for those that don’t know.
1:05:32 Yeah.
1:05:32 Yeah.
1:05:34 They were like world-class crooks.
1:05:35 Yeah.
1:05:35 Yeah.
1:05:38 Cause they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean, they,
1:05:39 I mean, it’s like you,
1:05:41 like it doesn’t pay the bills, you know?
1:05:41 Yeah.
1:05:48 So, uh, what had transferred, uh, you know, you know, the nature of addiction is if you
1:05:51 don’t get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right?
1:05:52 Like, uh, whack-a-mole.
1:05:59 So it whack-a-mole, um, into my, my background, which is watching my parents take huge.
1:06:00 So I, I got into gambling.
1:06:07 So I was just, like, it, there was every paycheck, anything, it was always, I gotta figure out
1:06:13 a way, cause gambling feels like stealing and it’s, you know, and I sat there and I, and
1:06:15 people were just like, you work at Facebook?
1:06:21 Like, that’s, you know, my friends that aren’t in that academia, they’re just like, that’s
1:06:24 like the, the, the shitty MySpace, you know?
1:06:28 Like, look at the font, look at the, you know, all the artsy, like, look at the designs, the
1:06:29 fucking, you know?
1:06:30 What is that?
1:06:32 The, the name, Facebook, come on.
1:06:34 Like, that’s the most creative, you know?
1:06:40 And I said, I think, uh, I’m going to ask them if I could get shares in the company, you
1:06:40 know?
1:06:44 Um, you understand, did you understand equity in that whole thing?
1:06:45 No, no, no, I don’t understand anything.
1:06:48 And it’s like, I have shares in other companies that are all worthless, right?
1:06:53 Like, it was just, it was growing up with my mom, watching her, that if I didn’t have
1:06:56 that, like, I just, and I don’t even understand that shit.
1:07:03 I just, I remember being with, uh, having lunch with, uh, Zuck’s, uh, parents and like,
1:07:08 you know, he doesn’t, he comes from a nice family and I think Yahoo or Microsoft, someone
1:07:11 had offered him right in the beginning, a billion dollars for it.
1:07:12 And he’s like, no thanks.
1:07:16 And he’s still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground, eating Doritos.
1:07:21 And I’m like, like, you know, I’m trying to like pay my fucking, uh, all my friends back
1:07:25 and I’m like, oh, he doesn’t give a shit.
1:07:26 He doesn’t care about money.
1:07:28 Like he cares about like what he cares about.
1:07:30 It’s like such a singular focus.
1:07:33 He’s like, I want to fucking disrupt the, I want to bring the whole world together.
1:07:35 It was, you know, youthful idealism.
1:07:43 And I remember, uh, uh, going to work, uh, one day, I just loved working there.
1:07:46 Cause I don’t get jobs like that where they’re like paint everything.
1:07:51 Like, like you’re, you’re here like doing this and I’m painting around, like I’m painting
1:07:52 on everything.
1:07:54 And, and the best part is that they didn’t even like what I was painting.
1:07:58 Like Mark would come and he’s like, what is that dude?
1:08:03 And like, Sean’s like, Dave, you know, that other thing you did I saw at the art show?
1:08:04 Can you, and I was like, you didn’t ask for that.
1:08:06 You said fucking destroy.
1:08:08 Like you said, scare people when they walk, you know?
1:08:13 Um, as I recall, there’s like a, there was like a big primate, like monkey with jagged
1:08:13 teeth.
1:08:18 And so I was, I was, you know, and I was gassing myself out, you know, like, like doing all
1:08:20 that shit without a mask on.
1:08:21 It’s all going right into my brain.
1:08:27 Um, I’m like, whoever knows whatever spray toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain.
1:08:29 And there’s no fresh air coming in.
1:08:35 And I remember Sean Parker, just bronze, just bronze skin.
1:08:39 And like $200 haircut, custom suit.
1:08:41 And I go, who are you, man?
1:08:43 And he was doing what my mom was doing.
1:08:47 I was like, he was just fucking doing pushups and like, and I was like, this skinny little
1:08:49 nerd, like just, he was like handsome.
1:08:54 And I go, oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit.
1:08:58 She used to fucking, and he’s like, oh, we’re, we’re going to get, we’re going to fucking
1:08:59 raise some money.
1:09:04 Like he was, and I go, holy fuck, this guy is so sick, you know?
1:09:09 And he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into like serious
1:09:09 fundraising.
1:09:13 And that’s when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel.
1:09:18 And like, just, I was like, this guy’s fucking, you know, like people give all the credit to
1:09:25 Mark, but I’m like, Sean, guy was, he was an artist in, you know, and also like out of control,
1:09:28 which like that attracted each other.
1:09:32 And then he was there when they got, when he got fired and all that stuff.
1:09:41 But I remember like the impact that had on me, like just, wow.
1:09:45 Like you heard, you’ve heard the fake it till you make it.
1:09:45 Right.
1:09:50 It’s like, I know I’m not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so.
1:09:52 But Sean Parker, like other people think so.
1:09:55 And I’m, but I’m like, but that’s whatever.
1:09:56 They’re just kissing my ass or whatever.
1:09:59 And then there can be a switch.
1:10:09 And I think it’s like sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough.
1:10:11 Like, I just can’t take it anymore.
1:10:13 It’s like, well, I can’t live like this anymore.
1:10:15 I feel like I’m trapped.
1:10:19 I feel like, and so then it’s like, oh, you can’t travel.
1:10:20 You need money for that.
1:10:22 Well, I’m going to hitchhike then.
1:10:23 I’m going to hop on a freight train.
1:10:26 I saw the entire world with nothing, no money.
1:10:28 Like, well, it must be nice to be rich.
1:10:29 I go, I’m rich now.
1:10:33 I’ve had nothing my whole life and I just had to fucking fight for it.
1:10:34 And like, would I recommend it?
1:10:35 Like, a lot of it was illegal.
1:10:39 I spent a lot of time in jail, but also jail didn’t hurt me.
1:10:41 I lived and I spent some time there.
1:10:42 I got to learn who I am.
1:10:49 And so it’s just to piece out the skills you learn for what’s creativity, what’s business,
1:10:55 what aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now
1:11:00 and how to like, because the other thing I learned from my mom is it just adapts.
1:11:02 Oh, our business just burned down in the LA riots.
1:11:05 And instead of like sitting there, it’s like, okay, now we’re doing this.
1:11:06 Now we’re doing this.
1:11:07 Now we’re doing this.
1:11:15 And I’m like, I remember getting a job in Beverly Hills right after high school.
1:11:22 I was 18, 1994, and it was at this weird comic book, like a high-end comic book store called
1:11:23 Comics Top Hits.
1:11:23 I’m not a comic book guy.
1:11:24 I love comics.
1:11:28 And I remember I begged the guy for a job.
1:11:29 I’m like, please, please.
1:11:30 And he’s like, all right, fine.
1:11:33 The customer seemed like, because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways.
1:11:36 And I remember one day Stan Lee showed up.
1:11:40 And I’m like, fuck, Stan Lee, like my hero, you know?
1:11:42 And he sat there.
1:11:51 And people were bringing him Darkwing Duck, Batman, Archie, like all the things he didn’t work on.
1:11:53 Hey, Marvel fans.
1:11:54 And he just signed everything.
1:11:56 And I’m like, I was like the guy managing the line that day.
1:12:04 And I’m looking at his hair plugs, and I go, you fucking fuck, like you didn’t fucking invent
1:12:05 Batman, you’re, you know?
1:12:10 And at the end of the day, I built up enough confidence to, you know, as everyone left and
1:12:13 we’re packing up, I’m like, Stan, dude, you didn’t invent Batman.
1:12:14 Why the fuck you signed that guy’s book?
1:12:16 And he’s like, did you see their faces?
1:12:18 Did you see, like they were so happy.
1:12:23 Like, why would I, why would I get in the way of their happiness?
1:12:26 And I’m like, holy shit, dude.
1:12:27 He’s like, yeah, don’t correct people.
1:12:29 And I thought about that.
1:12:32 Like, everywhere I go in the world, and there’s like,
1:12:38 Ching Chong, China, this, I, I remember being in Africa, and these kids were just chasing us
1:12:42 everywhere, going, Ching Chong, and our translator was a French-Vietnamese guy.
1:12:45 And he was like, Dave’s Korean, I’m Vietnamese.
1:12:48 And it’s like, you’re just, they don’t give a shit, dude.
1:12:49 They don’t give a fuck.
1:12:56 And I remember just the things I’m talking about is like watching Sean Parker shapeshift,
1:13:01 watching my mom shapeshift, watching, um, act as if you belong.
1:13:03 Act as if you have a seat at the table.
1:13:07 It’s like, oh, the fucking, it’s like, I know that’s part of being an artist is being like
1:13:09 shy, nerdy, oh, self-conscious.
1:13:12 It’s like, just pretend like you’re the best artist in the world.
1:13:19 Like, you just show up and you’re like, put, like, this is the journey from their head to
1:13:19 heart.
1:13:26 You’re, you, this is a, I, I like when you talk because you, you make sense, but there’s, that,
1:13:29 and that’s why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots I’ve met because
1:13:34 they try to apply logic to everything and you’re applying logic to spiritual problems.
1:13:36 You’re applying logic to emotional problems.
1:13:38 And it’s like, how’s that working out for you?
1:13:42 It’s not, it’s not, you’re never going to outthink a feeling.
1:13:47 You’re never going to outsmart a feeling like, you’re like, wait, the, the, these people
1:13:49 are like, why, who would do that?
1:13:50 Why, why would you do that?
1:13:52 And I’m like, because it’s not logical.
1:13:54 It’s, it’s an emotional thing.
1:13:56 It’s a, it’s a, it’s a mentally ill, whatever it is.
1:13:59 It’s a, it’s not logic based.
1:14:00 It’s emotion based.
1:14:01 It’s mentally ill based.
1:14:02 It’s spiritual based.
1:14:08 Like you can’t fuck with people’s religion or what they have faith in or, and, and all this
1:14:08 stuff.
1:14:15 So I’m, I’m watching, I remember going, Stefan correcting the black kids that he’s Vietnamese
1:14:18 is making them feel stupid and they’re getting angrier.
1:14:20 The kids that think I’m Bruce Lee.
1:14:22 And I just confirmed that I’m Bruce Lee are getting happy.
1:14:23 Right.
1:14:26 It’s like, people are dumb out there.
1:14:26 That’s fine.
1:14:27 I don’t care.
1:14:27 I’m dumb.
1:14:28 I’m stupid.
1:14:34 It’s like when someone corrects me or it makes me feel shame and dumber, but then if no one
1:14:37 corrects me, it’s like, then it’s my own shit to figure that out or not.
1:14:38 Right.
1:14:46 So watching these people, like very successful people in my life, my mom, she’s like unstoppable,
1:14:47 right?
1:14:48 Anything the world throws at her.
1:14:50 She just goes, okay, I guess we’re doing this now.
1:14:51 Like she doesn’t hang on.
1:14:53 She’s like, hang on tightly.
1:14:54 Let go lightly.
1:14:54 Right.
1:14:57 It’s just like, okay, we were real estate people.
1:14:58 Now we’re doing herbal life.
1:14:59 Oh, the, that happened.
1:15:00 Mark Hughes died.
1:15:00 Okay.
1:15:01 Now we’re doing this.
1:15:04 Like she just goes like that, like, like adapts to any situation.
1:15:14 And like, right now I get a call a week from all artists, creative types that they’re,
1:15:15 it’s our, you know, and we don’t have to have an AI talk.
1:15:18 I don’t, I would rather not have an AI talk, but it’s Armageddon, right?
1:15:22 Everyone’s like, I spent my life doing sound engineering and now it’s gone.
1:15:28 Just like the guy who would do the like hand letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job’s
1:15:28 gone.
1:15:31 The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone and now photographer.
1:15:32 Like it’s just, it’s gone.
1:15:36 Like you could sit there and start complaining or you could just keep adapting.
1:15:42 And so I think true creativity, you can’t contain if you’re, if you’re open and you’re ready
1:15:46 to get naked and you’re ready to, you know, people like, oh, do you have to suffer to be
1:15:47 a great artist?
1:15:47 Absolutely.
1:15:49 But you’ve already suffered enough.
1:15:50 It’s already done.
1:15:54 Like whatever happened to you in your childhood, that’s enough fuel for the rest of you.
1:15:59 You don’t have to continually, but I see myself and others at times, like I hopefully
1:16:05 I’m better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in the situation to like
1:16:06 suffer more and more and more.
1:16:15 And I, and I, and I just, I just remember the, the shame of my, my, like, it’s just these
1:16:20 things they’re, they’re, they’re, you know, decades ago, but they’re still like my dad just
1:16:27 like throwing me across, like we left another country so you could be a criminal event.
1:16:29 Like just, he was like, I’ll just kill us all now.
1:16:31 We were in the car and leaving the police station.
1:16:32 He’s like, I’m going to crash the car.
1:16:37 And I was like, I was in the back, like kind of disassociating, numb, crying, like feeling
1:16:41 mixed emotions going from like victim to sorry to like, well, fuck you then.
1:16:43 And you know, all everything in between.
1:16:49 And then, um, just going, I accept now.
1:16:50 Oops.
1:16:51 I accept.
1:16:51 Sorry.
1:16:53 Am I close enough to the microphone?
1:16:54 You’re good.
1:16:55 Am I close to the microphone?
1:17:05 Just going, I, I’m, I’m going to choose to believe what my mom believes in me.
1:17:06 I’m the greatest artist on the planet.
1:17:08 I was in my twenties.
1:17:09 I was like, fuck it.
1:17:13 Like going into galleries, looking at comic books.
1:17:17 And, um, can I tell you one quick fuck you Sean Parker story?
1:17:24 So at, at the, at the time I was doing Facebook, like things were happening.
1:17:28 Like I had a vice show selling my jail art, which gave me a little bit of cash.
1:17:33 I was starting to work for Heidi Fleiss to do a, uh, erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood.
1:17:40 And I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z, Linkin Park’s mashup album cover.
1:17:45 And it’s like, I needed the money and I need, and it was just like, it things, I was like,
1:17:46 it’s starting to happen.
1:17:50 Like things are, you know, and, and this is while I was doing the Facebook thing.
1:17:56 So they hadn’t blown up yet, you know, and, uh, they gave me the job and I’m like the biggest
1:18:02 rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together.
1:18:06 And they want me, a little old me to do the, I felt so hard.
1:18:11 I mean, they fucking butchered the art, the, I gave them the art and they just made it look
1:18:11 shitty.
1:18:12 They put a shitty font on it.
1:18:15 They put a, like they did fake graffiti spray.
1:18:16 I was like, what the fuck did you, whatever.
1:18:18 Anyways, that’s a whole other thing.
1:18:23 But, um, I, you know, I’m like, cool.
1:18:24 Like, what’s that going to pay?
1:18:27 Like, you know, like, and they’re like two grand.
1:18:34 I’m like, wait, you know, it’s like this one day I’m going to make it and my name is going
1:18:34 to be in lights.
1:18:36 And, and I, and I knew other artists.
1:18:41 So like, uh, Mir did, uh, the Limp Bizkit cover, Shepard Ferry did.
1:18:45 So I, I knew them well enough where I was like, Hey guys, am I getting fucked right now?
1:18:48 Or, and they’re like, no, that’s typical.
1:18:51 I go, that’s what they pay artists for.
1:18:57 I mean, cause back in the day when I was doing art paintings, whatever galleries, uh, or illustrations,
1:19:04 that was the range 200 to like 2000 at the most, if you’re doing like a cover or something,
1:19:08 but I’m like an album cover for, and they’re like, no, that’s what they pay.
1:19:10 And I was like, damn dude.
1:19:13 I thought this was, this is big time, you know?
1:19:19 And so I negotiated for that at the same time I’m working at Facebook and I drew this crazy
1:19:23 cover and they’re like, yeah, that’s for the rights for the album cover.
1:19:23 Right.
1:19:29 So then I don’t know, the album comes out and then they use the art everywhere.
1:19:32 They use it on billboards, like friends reading comic books.
1:19:33 And it’s like, Oh, they did a full page ad.
1:19:36 And I go like for illustration, that’s a separate fee.
1:19:36 Right.
1:19:39 It’s like, here’s the rights to use on the album cover.
1:19:40 Here’s for advertising.
1:19:40 Right.
1:19:42 And so I’m talking to, I don’t know anything.
1:19:42 Right.
1:19:46 I’m a fucking horrible street artist running.
1:19:48 Oh, I call myself a street artist.
1:19:50 Uh, delete that from the microphone.
1:19:52 Ah, sorry.
1:19:59 Um, so I, I’m, you know, and you, you could like bleep the names or whatever.
1:20:01 Cause I, I clearly remember.
1:20:06 So I call Warner brothers and I go, Hey, uh, can I talk to whoever’s in legal?
1:20:07 Or whatever.
1:20:11 And I go, yeah, I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful.
1:20:17 And they said, there’s a separate fee I should be getting for billboards, you know, bus bench
1:20:23 usage, magazine editorial, you know, you know, magazines used to be big, you know, tower records,
1:20:23 Virgin register.
1:20:27 And I remember the arrogance on this guy, Chip.
1:20:29 He was like their head legal.
1:20:30 He doesn’t work there anymore.
1:20:35 And he’s like, and I, I remember the way he talked to me felt like my child, like just
1:20:39 made me feel, he’s like, you’re some shitty graffiti.
1:20:40 Like who the fuck are you?
1:20:43 You know, like, why am I wasting my time talking to you?
1:20:48 And I go, well, and he started like just hitting me with legalese.
1:20:50 And I go, Hey, I’m raising my hand right now.
1:20:53 You can’t say I’m raising my hand saying, I don’t understand what you’re saying.
1:20:54 Can you, can you please talk to me?
1:20:56 And like, can you dumb, dumb down?
1:20:58 Like you’re trying, you’re like trying to beat me up with words right now.
1:21:04 I’m just saying, you know, it should be an additional 10 grand, 15 grand for what you
1:21:05 guys did.
1:21:08 I’ll be happy with another five or, you know, just like trying to talk.
1:21:12 And he’s like, I don’t know who the fuck you think you are.
1:21:14 And it was like very condescending.
1:21:18 And I, and I remember the arrogance of, I was like, I could be recording this call or,
1:21:23 you know, but he was just, and I was like, for a guy named Chip, that’s such a weird, you
1:21:27 know, um, you could come at us with lawyers.
1:21:31 You could like, and you may be even right, but guess what?
1:21:32 You’re fucking with Warner.
1:21:33 Like you’ll never win.
1:21:35 Like you will never get another dime out of us.
1:21:37 I was like, holy fuck that.
1:21:38 What a fucking.
1:21:43 And like I said, like, if you’re going to be like, people are like, Oh, I love painting.
1:21:47 Then just paint like, Oh, I want to be, it’s like, you know, fucking hard it is to make
1:21:48 money as a career.
1:21:50 It’s like, you gotta fight.
1:21:55 You gotta get a thick skin and you better be ready to like, I had to threaten Nike with
1:21:58 blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me.
1:22:00 I was like, you asked me for these drawings.
1:22:01 I did them.
1:22:03 I delivered them on time and you’re giving me the checks in the mail.
1:22:07 And I called like Wieden and Kenton, you know, whatever the Oregon.
1:22:08 And I was like, I live in LA.
1:22:11 It’s going to take me this many hours to drive.
1:22:12 And I’m going to, I don’t know which car is yours.
1:22:15 I’m going to blow up every car check was in the mail the next day.
1:22:17 I’m like, why did I have to do that?
1:22:22 Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the, but most artists go, and then they just get
1:22:22 fucked over.
1:22:23 Right?
1:22:26 So that’s part of being an artist is getting fucked over, not getting paid what you deserve,
1:22:27 blah, blah, blah.
1:22:33 So I’m like, obviously sensitive and painting like in a bad mood.
1:22:34 And Sean’s like, what, dude, what’s up, Dave?
1:22:34 Why are you?
1:22:36 And I told him what I just told you.
1:22:41 And he’s like, you know, Facebook has like big money behind it.
1:22:41 Now it’s growing.
1:22:46 He’s like, oh, we got a multimillion dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow and the meeting.
1:22:48 And I was like, he goes, check this out.
1:22:53 So he has the meeting with Warner Brothers and they’re like full, like, you know, everyone’s
1:22:57 at the long table and they’re like, oh, we want to advertise with Facebook and this is the
1:23:01 new, this is the new world and they’re like, okay, cool.
1:23:04 And it’s like, you know, it’s like millions of dollars or whatever, hundreds of thousands
1:23:04 of dollars.
1:23:08 And he’s like, yeah, but that guy Chip fucked with my friend Dave Cho.
1:23:10 So we’re not doing shit with you guys.
1:23:15 And he just, and I was like, this guy’s my dog forever.
1:23:21 Like, like what, how, like, like just does not, no fucks given.
1:23:21 Right.
1:23:23 I was like, I cried.
1:23:24 I gave him a hug.
1:23:26 I was like, don’t fuck with me.
1:23:27 Don’t fuck with me.
1:23:29 Like it felt so good.
1:23:31 It felt so fucking good.
1:23:34 I was like, and then I found out he got fired and all that shit.
1:23:38 It’s like, I was like, yeah, sometimes the little guy wins, you know, like it felt so good.
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1:25:11 that they’re sponsoring the podcast.
1:25:16 If you’d like to try function, you can go to functionhealth.com slash Huberman function currently
1:25:22 has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they’re offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
1:25:27 Again, that’s functionhealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to function.
1:25:32 So I got all the typical shame and all that.
1:25:39 And to be fair, if you’re my dad and you fucking escaped the war and famine to raise your family
1:25:45 in America and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on walls, like
1:25:46 you’re going to, you’re not going to.
1:25:53 So I give him that, you know, but I just, I was, I felt, I didn’t know where I belonged.
1:25:58 You know, I, I’m like, I, I, I couldn’t process, maybe I have dyslexia.
1:26:01 I was in school and it just, I couldn’t, none of the information.
1:26:02 I was like, this is so hard.
1:26:09 Like people, like I would try really hard to get a C right where other people were like,
1:26:09 Oh, okay.
1:26:10 You know, X.
1:26:12 I was like, why is there an X in math?
1:26:13 And they were like, Dave.
1:26:15 And they dumb it down and dumb it down.
1:26:17 I’m like, I’m, I’m retarded.
1:26:19 I think I need to go to that class.
1:26:25 Like I’m like, I felt like I felt like, cause both of my brothers have like really high
1:26:27 IQs and I’m like, I’m, I’m stupid.
1:26:33 Like I, you know, so I felt really small in that area and I, and I, and I, and I made up
1:26:34 the story.
1:26:35 Like I suck at sports.
1:26:36 I go, so this, this is it.
1:26:38 This is all I’ll ever be good at.
1:26:42 So I, and, and now I’m going to fully buy in to what my mom’s saying.
1:26:48 And because I grew up with the Asian work ethic, like I’m like, it’s not a fit.
1:26:49 I am good.
1:26:51 I, it wasn’t like, I am going to be the best.
1:26:52 I was like, I just adopted.
1:26:54 I am the best artist in the world.
1:26:58 And to that power of thought, like I sat down and I’d go to music.
1:26:59 I studied everything.
1:27:03 I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art.
1:27:04 Why does this?
1:27:09 I just got into the business side of art, the creativity, fucking loose watercolors, like
1:27:12 tiny detailed pen draw, like everything.
1:27:15 And I was like, and I was like, overcome.
1:27:17 I’m like, I’m going to be good at all of it.
1:27:18 Oil painting.
1:27:20 Like there, so people go, what, what kind of artists?
1:27:21 I mean, I’m an artist, everything.
1:27:26 When I talk, when I make music, like I am going from, I’m a piece of shit.
1:27:33 I suck to like, like, you know, not healthy, but you know, it’s like, I am art God, you
1:27:33 know?
1:27:39 Like, and so I was like in my twenties, just like brainwashed, like waking up.
1:27:42 And then like, that’s not how I naturally woke up.
1:27:44 I woke up like, Oh fuck, you know?
1:27:46 And I’d wake up and I’d have to put that on.
1:27:50 Like, you’re the greatest, you know, like, um, hypnotizing myself.
1:27:51 You’re the best.
1:27:51 You’re the fucking best.
1:27:53 You’re the greatest.
1:27:55 Were you doing any like reading books?
1:28:02 Cause at the time when you and I are basically the same age, um, back then it wasn’t a lot
1:28:05 about like neuroscience and this and that, and like actualization.
1:28:11 It was all kind of, you know, hidden away, but there was this, there were, you know, there
1:28:13 was like the Tony Robbins type stuff.
1:28:18 And there was the, there was this idea and infomercials and stuff that like, that you could
1:28:18 program your mind.
1:28:22 Sounded like you just basically took all that on without any of that.
1:28:22 Yeah.
1:28:23 I didn’t read any of that stuff.
1:28:27 I stole lots of books and I would read a lot of pornography.
1:28:33 I guess this kind of can, I could, uh, fit my Pee Wee Herman story.
1:28:36 If we’re talking about publishing, it’s hard to talk about this.
1:28:39 Cause kids ask me all the time, like, how’d you make it in art?
1:28:41 And like, nothing I did applies to today.
1:28:43 You know, it’s like, I went to Kinko’s.
1:28:48 I would have to spend my money or figure out how to do that copy thing, that trick to make
1:28:49 more copy.
1:28:50 Cause color copies are 99 cents.
1:28:51 It’s like, who has?
1:28:56 So I’d have to pick which one of my paintings were the best, make these like mini color copy
1:28:56 packets.
1:28:57 So that’s $10.
1:29:02 And then I would go to the newsstand and write the address, like Rolling Stone, like all the
1:29:10 magazines that had prestige and like CF Payne, Kent Williams, Baron story, like all these amazing
1:29:14 illustrators that would, would work for a time magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy, like they
1:29:15 would all use.
1:29:20 So I would open the, the front page where it had the heading of art direct and I would write,
1:29:25 write it down and the newsstand guys, like, I sound like a boomer right now.
1:29:27 Like, you know, it’s like, who the fuck, like there’s kids listening right now.
1:29:28 There’s a magazine.
1:29:28 What’s that?
1:29:30 You know, but that’s what I had to do.
1:29:34 And I would be like, which magazine do I want to send this $10 packet that I just, and then
1:29:35 I have to mail it to him.
1:29:40 Hopefully like they get that letter and not some other department, you know?
1:29:44 And then you just rejection letter after, you know, like, sorry, sorry, sorry.
1:29:56 And so I’m, I’m, I’m sitting down and I’m, I’m like, I’m ingesting all this and I, and I have the, I have
1:30:03 the fire and I’m like sitting down and I go that, like, what, why is that drawing successful?
1:30:08 Why do, you know, and of course there’s tons of insider trading and corruption in the art
1:30:09 world, but I didn’t know that at the time.
1:30:10 Right.
1:30:16 And it’s like, oh, that guy’s dad owns fucking water, like that guy, you know?
1:30:20 So I would just sit there and I would be like, that guy drew this much.
1:30:25 I’m going to draw 10, like that guy did this and I’m going to draw, you know?
1:30:30 And I, and I just, some of my paintings, all my paintings back then had like at least seven
1:30:33 layers, if not more, just layering and layering and dance.
1:30:38 And then it was me, it’s like a musician that’s like, I have to, like, I saw a thing
1:30:41 with Rick Rubin and, and, uh, Flea doing, give it away now.
1:30:46 And he was just like, you know, he can do, but he was like, just do there, there, there,
1:30:47 like just play less.
1:30:52 And back then it wasn’t, it was like, I need to show everyone what I’m capable of, which
1:30:54 is I can draw better than you.
1:30:54 I can paint.
1:30:56 I have to show you that now I don’t care.
1:31:03 But back then it was, and it, and it isn’t that art is a, it’s not who can put the most
1:31:04 lines down or, you know?
1:31:12 And so I’m, I’m, I’m trying to, I’m trying to like, and it was just, everyone has their
1:31:18 own path, but I remember year 2000, I’m doing graffiti.
1:31:21 I’m getting some gigs to do murals, you know, it’s just slowly starting.
1:31:26 And someone contacted me at Marvel comics and I was like, man, I didn’t even try.
1:31:28 And like, this is, this is it.
1:31:28 This is my dream.
1:31:32 And then we want you to draw the X-Men, but like a cool, cool X-Men.
1:31:35 And I’m like, fuck, I didn’t even have to go to portfolio day.
1:31:39 I didn’t have to, you know, and I go, oh, I knew if I just kept putting my shit out there,
1:31:43 you know, but I’m, you know, I’m what, 23 at the time, you know?
1:31:50 And I start drawing it and I guess they fired me or they didn’t fire me.
1:31:53 They just decided to use a different artist, but they never told me.
1:31:55 So I’m still drawing it.
1:31:58 And I’m, you know, I’m a passive aggressive, angry kid already.
1:32:00 And I didn’t email.
1:32:05 Some people had emails, but a lot, like a lot of artists hadn’t, this is the beginning of
1:32:05 the internet.
1:32:07 Like people weren’t using it the way they do now.
1:32:12 And I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like, hey, Dave,
1:32:14 you got fired off the X-Men book.
1:32:16 And I go, how did you know?
1:32:17 And they go, you don’t use the internet?
1:32:18 And I go, what is that?
1:32:19 And they showed us.
1:32:20 And I felt shame again.
1:32:26 And I was like, oh my God, like I was so excited to, like there’s little things in my head.
1:32:28 Like if I do a comic book, that means I made it.
1:32:35 And I wrote the most scathing, homophobic, racist, like just, I was mad.
1:32:36 I thought it was funny.
1:32:43 I was 23 at the time and it was like 10 pages long, but I didn’t know the editor of Marvel.
1:32:44 It’s probably not even him.
1:32:47 It was just, and I didn’t know how to get it to him.
1:32:52 So I just went to Marvel’s website and I just sent it to every single person that works
1:32:54 at Marvel, like copy, paste.
1:33:01 And the next day was my first experience in the year, you know, Y2K in 1999, 2000 of Going
1:33:01 Viral.
1:33:06 They’re like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to in comics was like, we
1:33:10 don’t know who the fuck this kid is, but he just committed career suicide.
1:33:13 And then once again, shame.
1:33:17 And so like, if I go back to all my shame stories, I go, what’s the, what’s the through
1:33:17 line?
1:33:21 And we should have made the secret word shame, but, oh, I’m a shame chaser.
1:33:23 Like I get high off shame.
1:33:25 Like what’s my drug?
1:33:26 Oh, workaholism.
1:33:32 It’s like my, my drug that I’ve chased my whole life is shame and anger, like fucking powerful
1:33:33 drug, you know?
1:33:37 And so I couldn’t believe it.
1:33:41 I was like, I’m never going to get to draw the Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine.
1:33:44 And I have, and I have at this point, and I went through the back door, which I always
1:33:46 do, it’s true, true Vandal.
1:33:50 But I just remember going, holy fuck, this is the worst day of my life.
1:33:55 Like people that I look up to, they’re like, there was like a whole thing of like, I don’t
1:33:59 know who this Dave Cho, I’ve never heard of him, but he’s a horrible human being.
1:34:00 Listen, you know?
1:34:02 And I was like, but there was context.
1:34:05 Like, you should have heard how I heard it in my head.
1:34:08 Like I was, you know, and they’re like, oh, it looks different.
1:34:09 And I was like, holy fuck.
1:34:16 And that was my first experience of like, of just feeling like me following a pattern of
1:34:19 trying to replicate hatred towards me.
1:34:24 Like, like if it’s, but not knowing it, I’m just like, oh, I don’t know what the fuck I’m
1:34:30 doing and like some ignorance, some playing dumb, some like repeating patterns, like a
1:34:31 monkey without knowing.
1:34:36 And, and, and so I had a friend in comics at the time.
1:34:39 Cause I was just like, I don’t, I was just making art.
1:34:43 I was going out doing graffiti every fucking night, just doing that OCD, playing music in
1:34:46 my head and just tagging up everything.
1:34:50 Like the, the kind of graffiti you’re not supposed to do people’s cars, houses.
1:34:53 Like I wanted someone to kill me.
1:34:54 Like I didn’t care.
1:34:59 Like I wanted someone to be like, dude, I worked hard for that car and you just ruined it.
1:35:03 And in my head, I’m like, but I’m a famous artist, which I wasn’t.
1:35:03 I’m 23.
1:35:05 And they’re like, I just made your car more valuable.
1:35:06 That’s how I’m thinking.
1:35:08 But I was out of my mind.
1:35:10 You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect.
1:35:12 Can I ask you a question about the shame?
1:35:13 Absolutely.
1:35:18 I have a friend, he’s a addiction trauma counselor guy, amazing guy.
1:35:20 He’s been on this podcast, Ryan Suave.
1:35:27 He, he has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing.
1:35:32 We haven’t talked a lot about addiction yet today, but you said you got addicted to the
1:35:36 shame and do you think, I mean, who knows here?
1:35:43 I’m using my intellectual brain, but do you think that the, that these oscillations of
1:35:48 like your, your mindset, like I’m a, I’m a great artist, I’m the greatest artist sets it up.
1:35:50 So the shame is that much deeper.
1:36:00 Like, it’s like, you know, he’s worked with heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything.
1:36:09 And he just said, you know, he goes, gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all.
1:36:14 And he said, but there’s something really interesting that happens to gambling addicts.
1:36:20 He goes, eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing.
1:36:21 Happens really quick.
1:36:27 So, um, I have my own feelings about this subject.
1:36:29 I’m, I’m a severe gambling addict.
1:36:32 Like, um, I told you I’m going to time jump.
1:36:43 So I’m at, at the, you know, I’m at that point, but I’ll jump to the current, which is, which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about.
1:36:45 But, you know, I’m here, so I’ll just go there.
1:36:56 Um, shame is, is so powerful because at this point, I’ve been to all the 12-step meetings.
1:37:07 I’ve been to Debtors Anonymous, Business Owners, Debtors Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, Workaholics, you know, sex and love addicts, sex addicts, uh, gambling.
1:37:11 Like, every single, and so, what’s the through line?
1:37:13 Every single one is gambling.
1:37:16 Every single addiction is gambling addiction.
1:37:18 If you drink and drive, you’re gambling.
1:37:30 Your life could be over and you’re, you know, if you overeat and you’re diabetic, it’s just every fucking addiction is, so, it’s, addiction is one of those things you can’t apply logic to.
1:37:33 And your, your scientist friend nailed it.
1:37:40 It’s, as I explore my feelings, you know, cause the, the people, what are you running from, Dave?
1:37:41 And it’s like, well, I’m fucking running from myself, dude.
1:37:42 I don’t want to look in the mirror.
1:37:43 I don’t want to see myself.
1:37:45 I, I hate myself.
1:37:47 So, I’m just running.
1:37:57 So, as long as I’m, like, doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just, just, just hopping on a train, like, like, literal running.
1:38:04 Like, literally running to make sure I’m never, sit still for one second, like, what are you doing, Dave?
1:38:05 I’m playing drums in a band.
1:38:08 I’m fucking, you know, at a casino.
1:38:09 I’m traveling, doing the news for Vice.
1:38:16 I’m painting at this, like, I, I can’t, I can’t sit still cause that means I have to sit with myself and I, I can’t do that.
1:38:17 I can’t do that.
1:38:22 I couldn’t do that.
1:38:24 I couldn’t do that.
1:38:26 I can now.
1:38:34 So, you know what feels good?
1:38:35 Winning a lot of money.
1:38:49 Not working for it and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you literally making enough money off Baccarat or Blackjack, what people don’t make in a lifetime.
1:38:53 That’s a fucking, that’s an insane feeling.
1:38:58 How many shits do you think I took today before I came here?
1:38:59 Rob, how many?
1:39:00 Two.
1:39:01 Two.
1:39:02 One big one and one little one.
1:39:08 Like, scientists don’t know what causes IBS.
1:39:10 I do.
1:39:11 It’s stress.
1:39:19 When I was gambling, when I, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least.
1:39:22 Just like, okay.
1:39:34 Like, just like, and I, and you would never see it on my face or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it.
1:39:37 And like, nothing, nothing.
1:39:42 Like, I, I was, you know, disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say.
1:39:45 I didn’t feel anymore, right?
1:39:47 Like, the highs were so high.
1:39:48 I had already been chased by the cops.
1:39:50 I’d already been beaten the shit out of.
1:39:52 I’ve already been molested before.
1:39:56 I already, whatever you could do to me, you’ve already done to me and I’m still here.
1:39:59 What can you do to me that I, like, I’m my worst enemy.
1:40:01 Like, I beat myself up, right?
1:40:07 When the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery, when I, like, I take one shit a day now.
1:40:13 When this fucking asshole asked me to do the podcast, I start stressing.
1:40:15 I’ve taken, what was that, like a few weeks ago?
1:40:18 It’s, it, oh shit, dude, I just took three shit.
1:40:19 It started again.
1:40:22 Because I don’t have stress in my life anymore.
1:40:25 Or like, I have, whatever, normal family stress.
1:40:31 But I don’t have, oh, you’re going to say something on some guy’s show and then your life’s going to be ruined again.
1:40:33 You know, like, that’s, I’ve done that so many times.
1:40:37 It’s like, so, I’m like, fuck, I just woke up.
1:40:38 I just already took a shit.
1:40:39 Why do I take another one?
1:40:46 I’m like, oh, the IBS is coming back because there’s a part of me that’s like, I hope I say something horrible today.
1:40:48 Because then I could feel that again.
1:40:56 And so what people, when they’re listening to this, and I don’t know if I’m making, when I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don’t.
1:40:58 But if you’re an addict, it will make sense to you.
1:41:04 If you’re, if, like, everyone listening to this is either an addict or, or someone in their life is.
1:41:06 Like, their family member or their friend.
1:41:09 But at this point, with social media and their phones, everyone’s an addict, right?
1:41:10 You can’t, you can’t stop.
1:41:11 It’s just impossible.
1:41:17 You, you will never, you will never find anything more addictive than a phone, right?
1:41:20 So in the time that, like, I haven’t been in an actual casino in 10 years.
1:41:22 I’ve banned from all these casinos.
1:41:24 The whole world became a casino.
1:41:26 You can’t go anywhere without gambling.
1:41:27 Fucking lottery.
1:41:28 You can go on your phone.
1:41:31 You could bet on, you know, anything, right?
1:41:38 So, so at first in every addiction, you want to win.
1:41:39 Oh, fuck that.
1:41:43 You know, I, I can’t, I can relate to drugs and alcohol, even though I don’t do that.
1:41:56 But, like, that must feel good to, like, get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party or, so, eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate that I never thought I would eat in my life.
1:41:57 And then, okay, that’s good.
1:41:58 Your body feels good.
1:42:04 Why do you need to eat until you’re puking and you become, like, binging and purging?
1:42:12 Like, what, because what you don’t understand because you’re applying logic to it is I want to fucking hurt.
1:42:17 I want the, like, winning a million dollars feels fucking great.
1:42:20 Losing $10 million feels even better.
1:42:22 Well, that doesn’t make any sense.
1:42:25 Like, getting married feels awesome.
1:42:32 I mean, I’m just making shit up, but, like, put, put, like, greatest day of my life, right?
1:42:33 Like, greatest day of my life.
1:42:34 And this, I could get dark.
1:42:52 I’ll try not to use dark examples, but when, when something awesome, marriage, having a child, winning a lot of money, doing drugs and having one of the best days of your life, like, just when it’s on the good side, it feels, that’s why you do it.
1:42:53 Heroin fucking feels good.
1:42:57 I’ve never done it, but the description of it is, like, that sounds awesome.
1:42:58 Why would you not do it again?
1:43:08 But then when you’re fucking scratching your skin and sucking dick for a fucking crack, like, that’s another high where you’re at the bottom.
1:43:12 And that’s a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was.
1:43:18 And so I don’t fucking know Andrew besides his online persona, right?
1:43:20 Like, we’re, this is our first time meeting in person.
1:43:24 It’s like, I, this is not me being a know-it-all.
1:43:27 Like, humans are not that difficult to understand.
1:43:29 We’re very simple.
1:43:36 Like, I called him immature a little bit before, not to be insulting.
1:43:41 It’s just, like, part of me is, like, this is me being a hater.
1:43:45 Like, I love everybody, but I’m just, like, what fucking adult gets tattoos?
1:43:48 Like, what kind of fucking adult gets, and I know you got fucking tattoos.
1:43:53 And I’m, like, who fucking just, like, throws their shit away to become a skater?
1:43:58 And then, like, are you okay with me asking you questions?
1:44:00 Like, were you sexually abused?
1:44:01 Were you?
1:44:01 No.
1:44:05 No, I was, I mean, I knew, I had friends that were, I lucked out.
1:44:10 I had one guy come at me that, I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo Alto.
1:44:11 Maybe you saw Palo Alto Toy and Sport.
1:44:13 It was, like, down on Waverly Street.
1:44:15 Guy that worked there did that.
1:44:17 I responded differently.
1:44:19 I flipped the desk over on him.
1:44:22 I made him apologize to me in front of everybody.
1:44:27 And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our tensions.
1:44:28 My mom’s from New Jersey.
1:44:29 She’s old school.
1:44:30 She knew something happened.
1:44:34 And my fear was that if I told her, that she would actually kill him.
1:44:35 Oh.
1:44:37 Like, actually kill him.
1:44:45 Like, and, you know, because despite, you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year,
1:44:49 she, like, that maternal aggression, that protectiveness, she would have killed him.
1:44:54 So I remember being, like, not worried about me, worried that she was going to kill him.
1:44:58 You know, and then, but, no, I lucked out there.
1:45:01 I perceive you as a brilliant man.
1:45:06 And this is me gathering data and facts in my life.
1:45:10 Not, I don’t know what the, but, you know, you know, very smart.
1:45:11 I know geniuses.
1:45:12 You know geniuses.
1:45:20 The smarter the person, the more intellectual they are, the more on the spectrum they are, the greater the trauma they experience.
1:45:32 Because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it, or you learn that as mental jujitsu to, like, these people I know in my life that are just brilliant.
1:45:36 Like, they’re just, they can comprehend things that most people can, they could create.
1:45:39 Their childhood was so fucking unsafe.
1:45:47 Abandonment, you know, and usually, that’s what I asked you about, it’s usually sexual trauma because that’s, that carries the most shame.
1:45:56 That they’re like, oh, it’s small, I can defend myself, that unless I become, like, like a jujitsu master or fighter, how can I protect myself?
1:45:57 And it’s with this.
1:46:04 So then something gets unlocked here and they become the smartest person in the room and they can just destroy you verbally.
1:46:05 They can destroy you in a courtroom.
1:46:13 They can just, they can just, and, and, and so, yeah, to answer the, you become a shame chaser.
1:46:15 You get high off shame.
1:46:17 And it’s like, it’s even shameful to admit out loud.
1:46:25 And so, like, I could sit here and, like, if I’m being present with, current, with up to date, like, I have a great life.
1:46:29 Like, I’m telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I felt in the past.
1:46:34 And I, I have, you know, I tell on myself all the time.
1:46:37 When old patterns come up, I, you know, I have a therapist.
1:46:38 I got a men’s group.
1:46:39 I got friends who love me.
1:46:41 I, I, I, I raised my hand.
1:46:43 I go, I need help, which I never did before.
1:46:46 I grew up with, shut the fuck up and figure it out.
1:46:48 That’s, my whole, my whole childhood was a question mark.
1:46:49 Where are we going?
1:46:50 What are we doing?
1:46:52 Nothing was explained to me.
1:46:55 And so, there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment.
1:46:58 It’s just like, and so I just, everything.
1:47:03 And that’s probably why I’m really curious and ask a lot of questions.
1:47:05 Because I didn’t know what was happening.
1:47:06 And my parents were just, like, working all the time.
1:47:09 They’re like, I don’t know, stay at this house or this.
1:47:10 And I was just like, who are these people?
1:47:11 Like, what’s happening?
1:47:14 What’s, why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th?
1:47:16 You know, like, why am I getting on a plane?
1:47:18 It was like, it was just like, just shut up.
1:47:20 Just, just go along to get along.
1:47:28 And so, part of, part of my story is, if I’m a nice boy, if I’m a nice Asian boy and I do,
1:47:32 then, then the world shits on me, then everything horrible.
1:47:39 The second I fucking speak up, scream, get the fuck off, like, just do graffiti, break the law,
1:47:43 then I get to do the Linkin Park album cover.
1:47:45 Then I get Sean Parker.
1:47:48 It’s like, and you know, I talked to all the jackass guys about this.
1:47:51 It’s like, you’re rewarded for bad behavior.
1:47:52 You get to be the president.
1:47:59 You get to, you know, like, the more I act, and it’s so, in one way, okay, that’s for career, right?
1:48:03 But like, what about, it just runs hell on your personal life.
1:48:09 And that’s why, when I, when I’m in my addiction and I’m chasing shame, I drag everyone who loves me down with them.
1:48:15 So I go, I need to, and I don’t need my wife or anyone to be my mom.
1:48:17 Like, I’m like, I, I’ll, I’ll handle it.
1:48:18 That’s how I grow myself up.
1:48:25 And it doesn’t need to be like, like I said, brilliance is found in Milpitas and Palo Alto and Gilroy.
1:48:29 Brilliance is found in the mundane, sitting in the waiting room.
1:48:31 Brilliance is found in these like quiet moments.
1:48:38 And so it’s like, I don’t need to go to rehab and have like this fucking movie role kind of, it’s just like, it’s a phone call.
1:48:40 It’s like, let me do this.
1:48:54 And so, um, the feelings, the, the chemistry that it’s like, when, when you lose all the money you’ve ever made in your life in a coin flip and you’re just sitting there like.
1:48:58 No worries.
1:49:00 Um, hopefully I didn’t get any on the microphone.
1:49:05 Um, what’s that line from that 80s movie?
1:49:07 It’s not a party till something’s broken.
1:49:10 I always liked that line because it excuses it immediately.
1:49:11 Some breaks folks.
1:49:13 You just say, yeah.
1:49:14 It’s not a party till something’s broken.
1:49:16 In this case, it was my soul, you know?
1:49:22 So, so I was very reckless with, with my heart.
1:49:24 I treated myself very poorly.
1:49:28 I, I didn’t care for, I didn’t care what happened to me.
1:49:34 And so, as I jumped from addiction to addiction, it’s like, well, which is the one I can hide in plain sight?
1:49:36 The one that you’re in right now.
1:49:37 Workaholism.
1:49:45 As long as you work all the time, as long as you’re providing people, like, as long as you’re helping people and being of service, then that’s good, right?
1:49:47 But what is being neglected in that?
1:49:52 This, like, I mean, I, I don’t tell this to everyone, but like, someone in your,
1:50:01 situation that, you know, you have life changes coming up and I already know your answer, but I would, I would ask, why not take one year off?
1:50:02 Like, why?
1:50:12 And it’s like, well, I got my, this, and I’m an important Stanford guy and I got, yeah, but that will, like, like, you only got one life.
1:50:24 And, you know, there’s something about it that feels like when I’m in my workaholism, like, that’s the one where I get, in this society, a pat on the back.
1:50:25 Good, good job, Dave.
1:50:32 And, you know, the Sean Parker story with the, with the Warner Brothers, that was a win.
1:50:34 I was like, fuck yeah, you know?
1:50:43 But it was, it was so much, can I tell my Pee Wee Herman story?
1:50:45 There’s some shame in that.
1:50:46 I’ll, I’ll, I’ll bring it around.
1:50:55 I’m, I just don’t, I’m, you know, part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience.
1:51:02 Like, I just, once I accepted what my mom is saying true, I am the greatest artist in the world, according to Jane Cho.
1:51:07 And now I’m going to start, you know, not at first, but like, I’ll start to believe that too.
1:51:15 Because you got to, it’s, it’s so scary doing graffiti, you know, not in a crew, not in a gang, to just go out.
1:51:21 And it’s like, it’s something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook and no one’s going to see it, right?
1:51:22 You fuck up, whatever.
1:51:30 But to draw something big on a wall and everyone going down the 101 freeways, like thousands of people will see it before eight o’clock.
1:51:31 Like, that sucks.
1:51:32 That guy has no can control.
1:51:35 That guy, and you’re just like, you’re, you’re naked.
1:51:36 You’re like, this is what’s inside me.
1:51:40 And I did it 40 feet long and here it is.
1:51:41 And they’re like, it sucks.
1:51:43 Shame.
1:51:43 I’m chasing shame.
1:51:48 Like, it’s like, what would it feel like if everyone’s like, dude, that’s the fucking masterpiece.
1:51:49 Not as cool.
1:51:51 Not as cool.
1:51:55 So I, I’m just, I’m doing the thing.
1:51:56 I’m sending my art out.
1:52:00 And La Brea used to have a lot of galleries.
1:52:06 And I, and I, and in my head, I thought my art was better than every artist that was in those.
1:52:09 I would be like, and I’d go down the street and I’m like, oh, they show that.
1:52:17 I would keep a record of what kind of art they show that I’d skate back to my house and paint like that style, but better in my mind, better.
1:52:22 And then I’d make a new portfolio and I’d go down like, and they’re like, who, who the fuck?
1:52:26 Like, like, it’s like a, like, you have to be shown first before they’ll even take.
1:52:36 And I go, but you know, so it’s just anger, more frustration, coming out sideways, coming out, doing more graffiti, shoplifting food to like, you know.
1:52:42 So then I finally get to La Brea and Melrose where there was a, a ice cream shop called Double Rainbow.
1:52:44 And there’s this wonderful lady named Candice there.
1:52:48 And I was saying how I’m talking now first, like out loud in my artist right here.
1:52:50 And she’s like, let me see.
1:52:53 And I show it to her and she’s like, this is amazing.
1:52:55 I go, I fucking know, dude, I’m the best.
1:52:58 And she’s like, all right, shut the fuck out.
1:52:58 All right.
1:53:00 She’s like, put it up on the wall.
1:53:02 And then my ego goes, in a fucking ice cream shop.
1:53:04 And I go, well, I guess no one else is offering that.
1:53:04 Okay.
1:53:07 So it was like, not this.
1:53:09 It wasn’t like minimalist.
1:53:16 It was floor to ceiling, hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on.
1:53:21 Like, this is singular, just I’m the best and I need to show you.
1:53:22 It wasn’t like tasteful.
1:53:25 Like, here’s one painting and let that breathe.
1:53:27 And it was just like, here’s, you know.
1:53:32 And people are coming in there buying like mint chocolate chip going, oh, that’s pretty cool.
1:53:38 You know, and so every day I would get a call, love your art, want to buy it.
1:53:39 I’m like, fuck yeah, here we go.
1:53:40 Like, $2.
1:53:45 I’m like, you know how long I spent on that art?
1:53:49 And, you know, and I just was like, 50 bucks?
1:53:50 You know, I’m 23.
1:53:52 This is like early 2000s.
1:53:59 I’m like, that’s, that’s less than the art supplies that I stole, to be fair.
1:54:03 But still, I’m like, can you cover the cost of materials?
1:54:05 And they’re like, yeah, that’s good.
1:54:09 But, you know, can you, just like haggling, like five, 10.
1:54:12 I’m like, that’s what a fucking print or sticker costs.
1:54:15 Like, this is an original painting, you know.
1:54:21 And I remember I got a call one day and it’s this, these, these things that I keep, the
1:54:24 stories that I keep editing in my mind to make me the hero, you know.
1:54:28 And the guy’s like, I’ll trade you a car for like that giant painting, the one that I spent
1:54:29 months on.
1:54:36 And of course, it’s like 1972 Plymouth Fury, no brakes, like cracked wind, you know, just
1:54:38 the complete fucking beater, like piece of shit.
1:54:44 But then the story in my head that I go around telling, you know, part of my PR marketing
1:54:48 is like, I traded my art for a car for an, you know, oh yeah.
1:54:50 And I’m like, you don’t need to know the details of the car, you know.
1:54:56 And the guy in the, you know, recycler was trying to sell it for like two, $300, you know, he’s
1:54:57 like, just get this shit off my lawn, you know.
1:55:00 And I remember, this is how I drove it.
1:55:02 I would drive it and there was no brakes.
1:55:07 So I had to, there was like fuel and I had to pump it like a block before or, and then
1:55:11 I would always hit the car like ding, like that’s what, and the guy would say, hey, what
1:55:11 the fuck?
1:55:12 And I’d be like, sorry.
1:55:16 And I had no money to fix it, but I was just in my head.
1:55:18 I, I did it.
1:55:21 I fucking, I did it.
1:55:24 I, you know, like small victories, little victories.
1:55:31 And then my friends like, uh, like in, like I knew all like the indie zine, like make
1:55:32 your own fucking punk rock.
1:55:39 Like, uh, and I would just get rejection letter after just, just the continuation of you’re
1:55:39 not enough.
1:55:41 Your art’s not that good.
1:55:42 You suck.
1:55:46 Just, and then maybe they wouldn’t say that, but that’s how I took every, you know, not at
1:55:52 this time, not for us, uh, rejection letter from Playboy, from Rolling Stone.
1:55:56 And, and I just remember one of my friends, he just always had like nice sketchbooks.
1:55:58 And I go, what, where are you getting that money?
1:56:00 Like you do, you’re a full-time artist.
1:56:02 And he was like a dirty punk rock guy.
1:56:05 And he’s like, you know, the skin rags pay just as much.
1:56:07 It’s like, they have none of the prestige.
1:56:14 And like, you know, I went to the tower records warehouse once where, uh, they distributed a
1:56:15 calendar I made.
1:56:18 And it’s like, here’s like this whole table is the warehouse.
1:56:25 This is like, you know, Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, this, and all of this is porn.
1:56:26 Right.
1:56:31 So, you know, you don’t want to brag about that, but that’s just, they’re like, they pay literally
1:56:34 the same amount as Rolling Stone, but it’s not Rolling Stone.
1:56:37 So I go, okay, I guess I’m doing that.
1:56:41 So then I go to the part of the magazine stand where you’re, you know, there’s a curtain and
1:56:47 I go back and I start, you know, butthole fever, just start writing down the art director’s
1:56:47 name.
1:56:54 And, uh, that was the thing is like, I cared, I cared so much about it.
1:56:55 It was important to me.
1:56:56 It saved me.
1:56:57 Art saved me.
1:57:03 So it didn’t matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota or like, you know, I just was
1:57:05 like, this is, you’re still looking at me.
1:57:10 Even though if I’m doing a corporate job, like I’m, I’m in there and I need you to see
1:57:11 me.
1:57:16 And I am, I’m, even though if I hate the job and you’re not even paying me, I’m still going
1:57:20 to do my best no matter what, like it’s, I have pride in my work, you know, and I, and
1:57:22 I, I get that from my parents also.
1:57:24 And I, and I love that.
1:57:27 I, I’ll go to restaurants where I don’t even like the food because I know the waiter is
1:57:30 like running to bring me water and he cares.
1:57:32 Like anytime that’s the secret ingredient to anything.
1:57:40 Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just, it’s such a warm feeling, you know, and I
1:57:41 cared, I care.
1:57:41 And I still do.
1:57:42 I care a lot.
1:57:43 Like I sit here, I don’t give a fuck.
1:57:44 I do.
1:57:45 I care maybe too much.
1:57:52 So I write the number for, you know, I try the legit ones first, Penthouse and Playboy.
1:57:53 And they’re like, nope, nope.
1:57:59 I’m like, I guess I go to a hustler and butt man and, you know, Asian fever.
1:58:08 And I get a call from butt man, you know, they’re like, these butthole paintings you did,
1:58:09 they’re, they’re just, they’re so good.
1:58:11 And I’m like, I worked really hard on it.
1:58:17 You know, it’s not like what I want to be doing, but, and they’re like, can you, can you come
1:58:17 in?
1:58:20 And it’s just true to their title.
1:58:21 It’s all it is.
1:58:22 It’s just all anal.
1:58:28 There’s no stories about anal page, there’s page after page.
1:58:31 And they go, can you do like this?
1:58:34 But like every week I’m like, what do you need?
1:58:40 They’re like, you know, Superman fucking Lois Lane, anal, Spider-Man, you know, midgets, like
1:58:41 whatever, like just all anal.
1:58:44 And I go, I can do that.
1:58:45 I would, I would love to do that.
1:58:48 And like, we pay, you know, a couple hundred bucks.
1:58:50 I was like, and I took it serious.
1:58:54 It wasn’t like a, it was like, this is my, and a lot of actually famous artists would do
1:58:56 that, but under fake names.
1:58:59 And they didn’t want to be associated their real art with that.
1:59:05 I was like, and, and so I did, I did all this art for a butt man.
1:59:08 Once again, if you want to cut out any names, I remember everyone’s name.
1:59:10 It was, uh, art director was Heidi.
1:59:11 She was so sweet.
1:59:15 She’s like, it’s just like, I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art.
1:59:21 So anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, oh, it’s not just my mom.
1:59:26 Like other people like it, you know, but in a, also this massive narcissist, like I’m the
1:59:26 best.
1:59:29 And like, no, I’m not that good, you know, but like, it’s like both, you know?
1:59:38 And, um, I don’t know why this always kept happening, but all these places I always worked
1:59:41 at, they would always go, you got such funny stories.
1:59:42 Like, do you got any, you know?
1:59:44 And I was like, I think I’d been with one girl.
1:59:46 They’re like, you have any like butthole stories?
1:59:50 And, and I, and I had been trained by, you know, black belt in lying.
1:59:52 My mom, you know, she was like, yeah, of course.
1:59:54 Like, I don’t even, it was so easy for me.
2:00:03 They’re like, oh, because these, these depictions of anal sex are so, they’re so graphic and
2:00:04 fantastic.
2:00:07 And every time you come in, you have some weird story.
2:00:12 Like, do you, do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this?
2:00:15 And I go, oh yeah, like super racist against Asians.
2:00:19 I go, oh yeah, like, uh, Susie Suzuki, like just making up fake names.
2:00:21 And they’re like, you know, someone named Susie Suzuki?
2:00:22 I go, oh yeah, yeah.
2:00:25 She goes, do you think she would write about her experiences?
2:00:29 And I’m like, how dumb is this lady?
2:00:31 Like, I don’t fucking know anyone named Susie.
2:00:31 Like, what the fuck?
2:00:33 And she goes, it’s 40 bucks a story.
2:00:34 And I’m like, cool.
2:00:37 Like they’re paying me 150, 200 bucks for this.
2:00:44 I’ll, so I go home and I would just write the most ridiculous, hi, don’t speak English.
2:00:46 You know, this is the voice I hear in my head.
2:00:48 I come to America, need a job.
2:00:58 And just writing like every like ridiculous male fantasy, like, and then he put in the wrong hole and pornography.
2:00:59 I became a pornographer.
2:01:06 Like I’m not, it’s not like the proudest moment of my life, but I’m like, oh God, you know, if God’s looking down on me, probably, you know.
2:01:09 But once again, shame, I’m cool with it.
2:01:13 I, I’ve made, I’ve made myself at home.
2:01:17 Like most people, they change their name, but I was like, this is what I do.
2:01:19 I’m a fucking, you know.
2:01:24 So here we go again, my fucking poor parents, you know, so I’m living at home, right?
2:01:27 So I can’t hide, I could have done a better job hiding the graffiti.
2:01:27 I didn’t.
2:01:29 They see the spray paint.
2:01:31 They see the fucking paint on all my clothes.
2:01:31 Was it good?
2:01:33 Were you happy with the graffiti?
2:01:34 No, I hated it.
2:01:34 Okay.
2:01:39 I just, it’s, I have so much respect for that.
2:01:41 Like it’s, it’s everything.
2:01:42 It’s physicality.
2:01:44 You’re, you’re climbing.
2:01:45 You’re, you’re an ninja.
2:01:48 It’s like fucking Navy SEAL, like it’s crazy.
2:01:52 Like you need to do a detail of a nose while you’re balancing on barbed wire.
2:01:53 I mean, it’s.
2:01:54 Yeah, those kids are crazy.
2:01:55 It’s insane.
2:01:59 I’m like, fuck, dude, these people, if they had a little bit of guidance, they could have
2:02:02 been like Navy SEALs, green berets, whatever.
2:02:09 So my dad, of course, find, you know, my, once again, like, and then I sit here now as
2:02:10 I tell the story and it’s coming.
2:02:12 Why didn’t I hide it better?
2:02:15 Oh, like maybe I wanted to get caught, you know?
2:02:22 My dad fucking throws, he’s like, sexy, sexy, you know, just like, once again, it’s like
2:02:25 this, like, think about my dad.
2:02:29 It’s like his friends are like going, you know, his friends, kids are like getting the highest
2:02:30 SAT scores.
2:02:36 They’re getting accepted into Stanford and, and they’re like, my son has hair covering his
2:02:37 eyes.
2:02:43 He, you know, and I think I was starting to get into like shitty, uh, eighties, like Warrant
2:02:47 and Winger and cherry pot, you know, like that kind of, like, I listened to everything.
2:02:51 Um, and I just shame.
2:02:56 I like literally, like not feeling it, but like having another human, your father tell you,
2:02:58 I’m so embarrassed of my son.
2:03:06 I’m so embarrassed, like, like anger, tears, like just breaking, like, why, why, why did
2:03:07 I come to this country?
2:03:16 Why did it, you know, just like, and I, I, like, I just, it’s like, now I could feel more
2:03:19 when I told it, but like before I just like, like, I just pretended like it was happening
2:03:19 to someone else.
2:03:21 You know, I just disassociated.
2:03:22 I’m like, whatever, bro.
2:03:23 Like, but it wasn’t whatever.
2:03:30 It was like, my dad disappointed in me, my mom disappointed in me and I’m like, fuck,
2:03:32 man, it’s not really working out for me.
2:03:33 Like just rejection after rejection.
2:03:41 And I just, I remember, uh, the shipping, like it was in the Larry Flint building, Wilshire
2:03:42 in La Cienega.
2:03:46 And I was like, fuck, I live like a, like I could skate there.
2:03:50 Like I’d rather, and I was scared to like send, oh, so this is what happened.
2:03:51 So I got busted.
2:03:55 The lady, I don’t know if she was a lesbian or something.
2:03:58 She’s like, oh, like I need to meet Susie Suzuki.
2:03:59 It wasn’t Suzuki.
2:04:00 It was a name like that.
2:04:01 It was like Trisha Toyota or something.
2:04:05 And I go, Heidi, are you serious right now?
2:04:08 It’s like, like there’s, that’s, I wrote that story.
2:04:09 That story’s ridiculous.
2:04:12 Like in my head, I’m like, it’s so obvious a guy wrote that, you know?
2:04:19 And she’s like, hey, we might be Buttman magazine, but we print the truth.
2:04:21 And I was like, what the fuck?
2:04:24 You telling me the penthouse letters are like, shut the fuck up.
2:04:28 And she’s like, she’s like, took all my art, threw it at me.
2:04:30 It’s like, you will never be published in Buttman anymore.
2:04:32 Like she just, you’re done here.
2:04:35 And I was like, I spent a long time on those paintings.
2:04:38 Like I, all the folds of the butthole.
2:04:40 And like, I, like, I really tried hard.
2:04:43 Like, you know, and it’s like rejection, reject.
2:04:50 Like I, I had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me.
2:04:54 Gallery, art, like it was just, it was like, cool.
2:04:55 I don’t, all right.
2:04:59 Didn’t feel, I mean, I’m sure it didn’t feel good, but I had figured out a way to internalize
2:05:01 it and just, all right.
2:05:03 And then, and then do my mom’s delusional thing.
2:05:07 But, but I’m still the best, even though the world’s telling me like, you’re, you’re a loser.
2:05:13 And I go, okay, who’s the art director at Hustler?
2:05:14 W.T. Nelson.
2:05:14 Okay.
2:05:16 I’m going to, so I call them.
2:05:22 I go, hey, I live, you know, I can skate there, you know, take me like an hour to get there.
2:05:25 But I have these paintings and I don’t want to send them in the mail.
2:05:30 I never sent paintings in the mail before and I’d rather save on the shipping.
2:05:33 And he’s like, I don’t know you, dude.
2:05:38 And I don’t really, but I had already sent the color copies and the pages that they had
2:05:42 printed, but man, and he’s like, but all right, I guess you could come.
2:05:45 And I’m like, yes, I’m going to go to the Larry Flint building.
2:05:46 This is going to be so cool.
2:05:52 You know, and I, and I go there and he’s just like, yeah, if you just tweak all these
2:05:54 paintings you already did, we’ll use those in Asian fever.
2:05:59 We’ll use these in, you know, like different, you know, there was Hustler had like 20 different
2:06:04 other magazines and he’s like, yeah, like that story is awesome.
2:06:05 We’ll print that story.
2:06:06 And I was like, okay, cool.
2:06:10 So I’m like, am I, am I a writer?
2:06:13 You know, am I, part of me was like, I’m a writer.
2:06:14 I’m a published writer.
2:06:16 Technically you’re a professional writer at this point.
2:06:18 And at the time I was also writing for Vice.
2:06:21 I was writing for Giant Robot, also not getting paid.
2:06:23 Like this was the first time I got paid.
2:06:24 So it felt like, oh.
2:06:25 Did Buttman pay you?
2:06:31 No, they didn’t because they, we had that fight and they never sent the, you know.
2:06:37 Apparently they quote only print the truth, but they also don’t pay their bills.
2:06:40 So the truth only goes so far for them.
2:06:50 So I, I, it was me, it was like, I can see a lot of my mom in that now of how the reality
2:06:52 is I’m not successful.
2:06:56 I’m a pornographer, but in my head, I’m like, I’m published.
2:06:57 I’m a real artist.
2:06:59 Like, and I’m a writer.
2:07:00 I’m a scholar.
2:07:04 You know, like I, and then he, I remember W.T.
2:07:07 Nelson paid me and then it wasn’t that much money.
2:07:11 And like, and now it’s just like that awkward, like, yeah, we usually don’t have the artists
2:07:13 come to the, it’s all like through mail.
2:07:17 And I don’t know, you, you want some porn?
2:07:19 This was before Facebook?
2:07:19 Yes.
2:07:20 Yes.
2:07:25 Because the reason I ask is, and I don’t want to take you off track because I was wondering
2:07:29 when Facebook eventually paid out, when the equity popped, basically.
2:07:31 I’ll get to all of it and I’m going to time jump.
2:07:35 But like, it’s just, uh, I want to stay in the, I want to stay in the feeling, please.
2:07:40 I’m trying to, cause these are all stories I’ve told before, but like, I’ve never told
2:07:43 them from like an emotional perspective.
2:07:49 It’s always just been like almost bragging like, and then I go like, I’m trying to, for
2:07:51 the first time, like sit, sit in it.
2:07:55 And cause I want to focus a little bit on the shame part, you know?
2:08:00 And, and, and part of, you know, part of being an artist is just constant rejection.
2:08:02 It’s like asking a girl out like over and over again.
2:08:04 It’s like, you’re fat, you’re ugly.
2:08:05 No, thanks.
2:08:09 You’re not, you know, it’s like, and, and, and for art, it’s art is different.
2:08:10 You know, like what you think is cool.
2:08:11 I might think it’s cheesy.
2:08:13 And it’s like, now I can see that.
2:08:18 But before I was like, you’re in the presence of greatness and you’re saying no to me.
2:08:20 Like, I’m like, okay, okay.
2:08:20 All right.
2:08:21 I guess it’s not good.
2:08:21 You know?
2:08:24 So it’s what I present and what I feel inside.
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2:09:32 So they, I mean, part of it is they just started sending me boxes and porn was expensive.
2:09:38 Now these spoiled kids today, it’s, you know, you could see anything, right?
2:09:39 It’s just free internet.
2:09:45 But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD or, or a magazine, those
2:09:47 things were like $20, like $20, like it was expensive.
2:09:54 And now I’m getting these care packages from Hustler, just shit that I’m not even into, like
2:09:58 bodybuilder, chicks with, you know, like just, just a lot of shit.
2:10:03 And I’m like, it looked crazy at my, at my apartment.
2:10:06 Like it was just, I’d finally moved out of the house.
2:10:09 I was dating this girl, this crazy actress.
2:10:14 And I just, it was Florida, like every room in the house had some kind of, it was like
2:10:15 kind of my identity.
2:10:21 They’re like Dave, the, you know, and she was starting to get disgusted.
2:10:24 She’s like, who am I, who am I dating?
2:10:28 You know, and I’ve always like at the core of all my addictions is codependence.
2:10:31 It’s, I don’t know what’s happening.
2:10:32 The world is scary.
2:10:35 I don’t feel safe and I need to go along to get along.
2:10:40 And I need to do, I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay.
2:10:42 And at, at the cost of me, that’s what I need.
2:10:45 And so, oh, you like that kind of art?
2:10:46 Then I’ll, I’m a chameleon.
2:10:47 I’ll switch to that.
2:10:50 Oh, you like, oh, you like Fugazi?
2:10:50 Okay.
2:10:51 I’ll listen to Fugazi, you know?
2:10:53 And there’s like, it’s not black and white.
2:10:56 Some of it’s true and some of it’s like a mask.
2:11:03 And I’m sitting there just, just really struggling, like stealing fish down my pants so I could
2:11:04 eat dinner.
2:11:05 Like, I’m not getting paid.
2:11:07 Like, there’s no money coming in.
2:11:09 It’s like, graffiti doesn’t pay.
2:11:14 Like, the pornography, like getting paid in porn is cool, but it’s not money, you know?
2:11:18 They’re like, hey, you want, and I have a, you know, I have a sickness.
2:11:20 I have a sex addiction.
2:11:25 So it’s like, hey, do you want 200 bucks or do you want $1,000 in porn, which is nothing
2:11:26 to them.
2:11:27 It’s just, you know?
2:11:30 So I’m having a, I’m just having a hard time.
2:11:37 And I, I get to my 72 Plymouth Fury who like every time I get in, I could kill myself or something,
2:11:44 you know, and there’s a note on the door and it says, uh, doing a period piece movie in
2:11:49 Los Angeles, your car, 1970 fits the time.
2:11:54 Uh, can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover, you know, pays something ridiculous,
2:11:56 like a thousand bucks a day or something.
2:12:02 I’m like, fuck, like hell, like these small victories, you know?
2:12:03 Oh, fuck.
2:12:04 Yeah.
2:12:04 I show up the next day.
2:12:06 It’s on the street, everything in the street.
2:12:07 They made it look like 1970s.
2:12:13 There’s all these other 1972 and they made it, they put the sirens on the top.
2:12:18 They took the license plate off and the guy that’s like dressing my car, one of the, you
2:12:24 know, the, the union guys looks in the back and he’s like, yo, this guy has so much porn
2:12:25 in the back of his car.
2:12:29 And I was like, yes, you know, like, and I go, what’s this movie?
2:12:34 And I see, uh, Johnny Depp come out of the house and he’s got a blonde hair in a ponytail
2:12:38 and it’s blow that movie blow with Pee Wee Herman.
2:12:39 Right.
2:12:40 But he wasn’t in that scene.
2:12:43 And I’m like, holy fuck.
2:12:44 I love Johnny Depp.
2:12:46 I’m like, oh fuck, that’s Johnny Depp.
2:12:49 And, um, this guy’s being really loud.
2:12:54 He’s like, this guy has a lot of porn, not just like, and I, and I’m like, oh yeah, I work
2:12:54 for a hustler.
2:12:55 You work for a hustler.
2:13:02 So I remember just, that was the first time I saw like a celebrity on that level in real
2:13:03 life.
2:13:06 And I was like, oh, he’s kind of short, but like, he was like signing autographs and talking
2:13:07 to everyone.
2:13:10 I’m like, this guy looks, he seems very friendly, you know?
2:13:14 Like he had that, whatever charisma, riz, the kids say, and star quality.
2:13:22 So then it’s, uh, you know, craft, service, lunch, you know, I’m, I’m, I’ve never been
2:13:23 on a movie set before.
2:13:25 And I’m just like, I’m getting paid to do nothing.
2:13:31 And just, and I was like, between all the, the background guys, I was the man because
2:13:33 I had so much porn, you know?
2:13:36 So I just had, I grabbed a sampling of it.
2:13:40 I had some of the, some of the ones that I had drawings in and I put some like book, my,
2:13:42 like, I, you know, I don’t know.
2:13:46 It’s like maybe Johnny Depp’s going to see my butthole paintings and be like, Hey, you
2:13:47 paid me, you know?
2:13:47 Like, I don’t know.
2:13:48 That’s my delusion.
2:13:49 Right.
2:13:53 So I’m like, is he going to eat in his own trailer or is he going to be down with the crew?
2:13:55 And he was down with the crew.
2:13:56 So it’s like lunch.
2:14:00 And it was just a scene like with, I think Ray Liotta and like all this.
2:14:04 And I’m just sitting there and I’m like, I want Johnny Depp to see, like, I want to,
2:14:05 like, I don’t know.
2:14:08 And I’m, I’m like, who the fuck I have?
2:14:09 I’m like 23.
2:14:14 I’ve, you know, I’m like, I do graffiti.
2:14:19 Like I got a car that doesn’t work for, you know, it’s like, but I was like, oh, it’s,
2:14:20 it’s, it’s, it’s going to happen.
2:14:22 So he’s sitting down with the crew.
2:14:25 He’s like telling stories and I didn’t have to do it.
2:14:28 Another guy was like, hey, Johnny, this guy has all this porn in this guy.
2:14:29 He’s like, oh, really?
2:14:30 You know, I can’t do a Johnny Depp impression.
2:14:32 And I go, and I was like, my cue.
2:14:35 I was like, hey, Johnny, like, see, this is, this is my art.
2:14:37 And, and, you know, I had some butt man in there.
2:14:38 I had a hustle.
2:14:43 I grabbed a sampling of my, you know, maybe I had some color copies of my, my art and,
2:14:45 and he, and he, and he flips through it.
2:14:50 He’s in his wig and he’s like, like, it’s, it’s a lot of butts.
2:14:53 You know, it’s like, it’s pretty singular vision.
2:14:55 I go, yeah, I could do other stuff.
2:14:57 And, and, and, you know, he just hands it back to me.
2:14:58 I’m like, oh, fuck.
2:15:00 And I was like, oh, thanks, Johnny, you know?
2:15:03 And I was like, no, that was cool.
2:15:08 And then I’m like trying to spin that in my head of like, it immediately goes to, he fucking
2:15:09 hates you.
2:15:12 What, like, what’s stupid, stupid, like, why did you, you know, like, why did you do that?
2:15:16 And then, um, I, yeah, I don’t know the movie.
2:15:19 Like, you know, when they do a Hollywood movie, they change the name.
2:15:20 I didn’t know it was going to be Blow.
2:15:21 Like, that movie’s awesome.
2:15:23 And I feel like defeated.
2:15:27 And they’re like, hey, you know, we were going to pay you for two days, but we finished the
2:15:27 scene.
2:15:28 So you’re only going to get paid for one day.
2:15:31 And I’m like, I’m going to get as much chicken as possible.
2:15:34 So I started getting the Tupperware and, you know, I’m like, I’m going to eat for like
2:15:36 a week off this craft service food.
2:15:41 And I’m, I’m walking out and I see all the star wagons and I see on the door, Paul Rubens.
2:15:46 Meleka leka hi, meka hi, ni ho.
2:15:47 I’m like, here we go.
2:15:49 Like fucking my childhood.
2:15:53 I’m like, and he had gotten cotton jerking off in a movie theater or something.
2:15:54 I didn’t give it.
2:16:00 Like, I always, maybe I can verbalize it better with the shame, but like when Winona
2:16:07 Ryder got caught shoplifting or like all of that always made sense to me and it endeared
2:16:09 me to, it made me, it made them look human.
2:16:11 Like I was like, that’s weird.
2:16:16 My hero, my childhood hero that did Pee Wee’s Big Adventure, Pee Wee’s Playhouse, getting
2:16:17 caught jerking off.
2:16:18 And why did he do that?
2:16:20 Why didn’t he do it at home?
2:16:22 Or, but I, even those things I didn’t understand.
2:16:24 I was like, now I’m like, I love that guy.
2:16:30 Like, I, like, I have nothing but compassion for like, and that’s.
2:16:37 Like a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself.
2:16:41 Cause a lot of things I do now is I work with, you know, murderers and, and at risk
2:16:42 youth and chill.
2:16:49 Like I’ll work with anybody because my old self is like, fuck this dude.
2:16:49 Fuck this person.
2:16:50 Fuck you.
2:16:51 You hurt me.
2:16:53 Revenge, revenge, very Korean, you know?
2:17:00 And now I go, if, you know, and I work with people in prisons, I go, if you’re willing to
2:17:03 be a better version of yourself, I, I can, I’m not a scientist.
2:17:08 I don’t, but I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person or try
2:17:10 at least if you’re willing, only if you’re willing.
2:17:12 If you’re not willing, then I don’t want to waste my time.
2:17:14 And, you know, you know, great.
2:17:17 So, you know, fuck it.
2:17:18 I’m going to do it.
2:17:19 So Johnny didn’t want the porn here.
2:17:22 I read a little, I don’t remember exactly what I wrote.
2:17:24 And I was like, biggest fan, love you.
2:17:28 I think I wrote like, I don’t care what they say about you.
2:17:29 Like, I’m still love you.
2:17:34 And I can draw other stuff, but here’s stuff I’ve done for, and I left it on his thing.
2:17:42 I knocked and I, I was too embarrassed to like, and I ran away and I mean, it just, there was
2:17:46 so many, there was so many moments.
2:17:53 I remember, you know, and then, so like, it’s, it’s gradual, right?
2:17:54 Like, it’s like, okay.
2:17:59 And then this little thing happens in this, but, and, uh, you know, it was like, I don’t
2:18:01 know, a decade before the Facebook.
2:18:03 And also I don’t pay attention to that stuff.
2:18:07 So as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me and he’s like, Hey, you know,
2:18:12 those shares are worth a quarter million now or, but then at the time I was gambling and
2:18:13 I was making that much gambling.
2:18:14 So I was like, ah, whatever.
2:18:15 I don’t care.
2:18:17 And he’s like, yo, you know, they’re worth a million now.
2:18:23 And I had quietly become a millionaire, uh, by the time I was 30 at a huge art show with,
2:18:26 uh, Steve Lazaridis, who’s Banksy’s art guy.
2:18:32 And I was like, I hit at the right time that shit, you know, like, Oh, fuck you, dad.
2:18:36 Look, I fucking made, you know, like the art that he hated me for.
2:18:38 I was like, look, there it is, you know?
2:18:41 Um, and there was always a lot of anger at that.
2:18:46 It’s like, you fucking live in a house that was paid for by like spray painted dicks, motherfucker.
2:18:46 Fuck you.
2:18:51 Who, you know, like, you know, and it’s like, I love my parents.
2:18:52 It’s a love hate relationship.
2:19:00 It’s complicated or maybe it’s not that complicated, but it’s like, um, you know, hearing, I know
2:19:06 how proud of, even though it’s not very Asian for parent from another country to say, I’m
2:19:06 proud of you.
2:19:11 Like he, he tells, you know, he, he’s like, we like kiss on the lips.
2:19:14 He’s like, I, and he rubs my face and like, I fucking love you, dude.
2:19:16 He doesn’t cuss, but he’s like, I love you.
2:19:17 I’m proud of you.
2:19:19 And it’s like all that shit.
2:19:25 I just said, it’s like, you know, so I have a lot of compassion for, for my, my family.
2:19:39 Um, so like, I remember, uh, and then things like I started working for Vice, you know, I
2:19:44 had this relationship with Gavin McInnes and Shane Smith and they just, they’re like, Hey,
2:19:47 you’re, you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur.
2:19:52 You hitchhike like, and this was as print is dying and things are, they were the first
2:19:56 early adopters of tech and you know, they’re like, we’re, Vice is going to move to online.
2:19:58 I’m like, who?
2:20:00 I’m always the guy that’s like, who the fuck?
2:20:04 You know, it’s like, I’m like Korean force gun from like just in the room with like the
2:20:06 most important things in life happening.
2:20:08 And I go, all right, cool.
2:20:11 And they’re like, what can you film for nothing?
2:20:16 You know, cause it was like Spike Jones was there in the beginning.
2:20:21 Johnny Knoxville, like, you know, it was like the beginning of, of that, of Vice, you
2:20:24 know, and ended all fucked up because of greed and all that shit.
2:20:27 But I was like, I, every time I hitchhike, something crazy happens.
2:20:29 I was like, okay, cool.
2:20:29 Film that.
2:20:31 So then I started filming Thumbs Up.
2:20:34 I think the first, I, this is what I was saying with time.
2:20:38 I think it was 20 years ago and I do all that shit.
2:20:44 And then it’s like all the things, like I was saying that I was arrested for, I got shamed
2:20:45 for, embarrassed for.
2:20:48 Now people are giving me money and jobs and they’re like, yeah, all that fucked up shit.
2:20:49 Can you do it on camera?
2:20:51 Can you, you know?
2:20:53 And I was like, oh, they like me.
2:20:54 My mother was right.
2:21:04 You know, and, uh, so one day, uh, uh, my friend Dave Chang, who also is, uh, you know,
2:21:07 severe gambling issues, you know, I didn’t want to meet that guy.
2:21:09 Cause that was like looking in the mirror.
2:21:12 He was like, everyone’s like, he’s you, but of cooking.
2:21:16 And I was like, I don’t need to meet, like, I need to meet with people that lift me out
2:21:17 of my shit.
2:21:20 Not that’s why I hate meeting other addicts.
2:21:25 Cause then it’s like, you know, like it, you never know how it, like right now I’m
2:21:30 sitting here telling if I’m getting, if I’m being, if I started this show telling you what
2:21:34 I least want to share, it’s like, now I’m addicted to Pokemon, right?
2:21:37 Like you go, oh, you haven’t gambled in a casino in 10 years.
2:21:40 You haven’t, you know, and then you pat yourself on the back.
2:21:41 And then the worst thing happens.
2:21:42 My kid gets into Pokemon.
2:21:43 I go into a shop.
2:21:46 I had no idea that packs cost $20.
2:21:50 I open a pack and the worst possible thing could happen.
2:21:51 I get the hit card.
2:21:56 It’s like, you got the, the Sunbryon, the $1,000.
2:21:58 And I’m like, wait, wait, wait, hold on.
2:21:58 Wait, what?
2:22:00 And I go, oh, this is gambling.
2:22:07 And in six months I I’ve gone from like, maybe I’ll spend a hundred bucks, which, which at
2:22:09 the time I was like for fucking cards.
2:22:12 And now I spend thousands of dollars a day on it.
2:22:17 And it’s, and now, and, and I always, I always turn my addictions, which I’m always open
2:22:20 about into my job, but it’s for work.
2:22:22 The buttholes, that was for work.
2:22:23 The, you know, everything’s for work.
2:22:26 It was like, oh, now I’m drawing on the, I got one for you.
2:22:27 I’ll give it to you later.
2:22:29 I drew on Mike Tyson for you.
2:22:30 Cause I know you like Michael John.
2:22:31 I should get a context.
2:22:34 Dave sent me a text yesterday.
2:22:35 He said, oh, what’s your favorite Pokemon?
2:22:36 And I don’t know.
2:22:37 Cause I don’t all Pokemon.
2:22:39 And he goes, what’s your favorite athlete?
2:22:40 And I said, Mike Tyson.
2:22:43 That’s a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you.
2:22:44 This is so dope.
2:22:51 So, so, I mean, it’s, it’s like, you’re welcome.
2:22:56 You know, the addictions, the things they say about addiction is it’s, it’s baffling, cunning,
2:22:57 seductive.
2:23:02 And so you, I’m like, oh, I’m not, the gambling comes up in other ways.
2:23:06 You know, it’s like trading cards, you know, like little things.
2:23:13 And it’s like, I don’t, I’m not, as a middle-aged man and I’m shaming myself, it doesn’t feel
2:23:21 good to be, you know, like, like I’m friends with guys that are like, like Money Mark, who’s
2:23:22 in the Beastie Boys.
2:23:27 Like he’s 65 and my friend, Bill Poon, who I used to do a podcast, he’s 62.
2:23:32 So like, I’m, I’m a middle-aged man hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle
2:23:39 of the night talking about predator badlands, talking about like childish arrested development
2:23:40 type of shit.
2:23:47 I go, and then the thing is like, I’ve been to cultures and cultures where they’re like,
2:23:52 even being a Mormon and like, when you turn 18, there, there is a, a ritual that happens
2:23:53 that says, now you’re a man.
2:23:55 And we don’t have that in our culture.
2:24:01 So that’s why you have grown men wearing Pokemon t-shirts and talking about fantasy.
2:24:03 Like it’s all the same fantasy football.
2:24:04 It’s all, it’s all fantasy.
2:24:07 It’s all immature shit.
2:24:13 And you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards and,
2:24:17 and it’s like, okay, if it makes you happy, cool, I guess.
2:24:21 But there’s always, there’s always a part of me that’s like dissatisfied.
2:24:28 Like, like I do like my daily affirmations of like, I don’t, I don’t need to do anything
2:24:30 today for Andrew to like me.
2:24:31 Like I’m enough.
2:24:34 Like, I just, I have to sit in that.
2:24:35 And I was like, no, I got to.
2:24:37 And then I got it from you.
2:24:41 You know, it’s like, we talked once on the phone before I showed up today and you’ve sent
2:24:45 me a mountain of this Yerba Mate, this delicious Matina.
2:24:48 And I’m like, that’s, I fucking like, this is like crack to me now.
2:24:50 And I’m like, oh, this guy, I don’t know.
2:24:52 Is this sending, hey, can I get some more of that?
2:24:54 And I told you I was starting to get sick and you’re like, oh, I’m going to send you
2:25:01 some peptides and I go, what a sweetie and cute and like awesome and very handsome.
2:25:07 And like the, your shirts, the way they fit every time I’m like, dude, and you got some
2:25:09 guns and like the clothes look good.
2:25:11 I’m jealous of your posture.
2:25:15 And I just go, oh, this guy’s a caretaker.
2:25:20 Like, I don’t even fucking know the guy and he’s sending me like, I don’t know if peptides
2:25:21 a drug, but he’s like, oh, I’ll help you, Dave.
2:25:23 I’ll send you these experimental medicines and this.
2:25:26 And I go, thank you.
2:25:27 But also you don’t need to do any of that.
2:25:28 Yeah.
2:25:29 Like, I just wanted to meet you.
2:25:34 And to be clear, I know I don’t have to, it’s in my nature to want to care for people
2:25:36 that I, I, I feel loved towards.
2:25:42 I know, but like we just met and I’m like, those things take time.
2:25:44 And then you’re like, no, I got people to do that or whatever.
2:25:46 And I go, the cost, I’ll speak for myself.
2:25:49 The cost of that at some point is you, right?
2:25:56 When you spend so much time thinking of others, you know, and so, and it feels like against
2:26:01 how I was raised, I go, fuck, this feels selfish for me to, you know, like I never took a, you
2:26:06 know, at, at, at the height of my workaholism, I was touring with my band.
2:26:13 My podcast was DVD, I say was, you know, which I did with Asa Akira, Pornstar and Bobby Lee
2:26:14 and Steve Lee.
2:26:18 It was becoming like the biggest, you know, it was, there was no one doing podcasts back
2:26:23 then it was Joe, um, Adam Carolla, I’m trying to remember.
2:26:25 It wasn’t that, it wasn’t what it is now, you know?
2:26:30 And so it was, it was insane.
2:26:35 Like, cause I grew up on Howard Stern and I’m like, just hearing him fight, like you couldn’t
2:26:37 say a certain thing.
2:26:40 And, and then he’d get punished by the FCC.
2:26:43 And then someone was like, Hey Dave, you know what a podcast is?
2:26:44 I go, this sounds weird.
2:26:45 What’s a podcast?
2:26:49 And I go, and talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules.
2:26:52 And I, it was like, it’s a new canvas.
2:26:55 I was like, you could, you can say anything.
2:27:01 You can fucking say, like, you could fucking cuss and tell like the worst story.
2:27:06 Like, and I, I just, I couldn’t believe that it existed.
2:27:11 I couldn’t believe, and so, you know, and I didn’t like come in with a mission statement
2:27:12 and I know intention’s huge.
2:27:14 And part of it was, I was just running and running.
2:27:16 But now in hindsight, I go, what was that?
2:27:18 And I was like, oh, shame chasing.
2:27:26 I was like, how can I be as, how can I record the downfall of me?
2:27:32 Like, like, like, how, how much can I go over the edge?
2:27:35 How much can I push up against this boundary and see it?
2:27:37 Cause let me see if you care.
2:27:37 Right.
2:27:39 And first of all, I was like, no one’s listening.
2:27:43 Turns out it was a lot of people listening, but I didn’t know that at the, you know, we
2:27:45 started, I was like, let’s just, let’s just go.
2:27:47 Let’s record our downfall.
2:27:48 Let’s record our bottom.
2:27:54 Like as an addict, like being, being how, like I’m chasing shame.
2:27:58 Like I’m like, in a way it’s like this, like someone who’s like a flasher.
2:28:01 They’re like, what kind of person gets off on like running down the street?
2:28:03 I was like, that’s what I’m doing.
2:28:10 I’m trying to, I’m not a mentally well person that I’m dealing with demons inside me that
2:28:11 I don’t know how to articulate.
2:28:14 So I’m going to workaholism.
2:28:19 I’m going and I’m trying to find myself and find out what I’m trying.
2:28:21 Like I don’t, and it’s just so painful.
2:28:27 And I, I, I feel misunderstood and I go, let’s just fucking say the worst possible things every
2:28:31 episode and make fun of it like a joke.
2:28:37 And just like, I mean, once again, if I look back and I go, what’s the worst things that
2:28:38 ever happened to me?
2:28:41 Jail, like getting canceled multiple times.
2:28:44 It’s like all of it led to the best moments of my life.
2:28:48 So I don’t sit here and judge, oh, this was good.
2:28:49 This was bad.
2:28:51 Cause good moments lead to, it’s just life, right?
2:28:52 It’s fluid.
2:28:54 And it’s, there’s a spectrum of good and bad.
2:29:04 So I remember just, there was so many, I’m like doing this podcast and in my mind, I was
2:29:10 like, like, and, and like having Howard Stern write me that going on his show and him telling
2:29:15 me afterwards in private, dude, you’re out of control was the greatest compliment.
2:29:21 You know, Howard Stern, the, the despite, you know, the King of all media telling me, and
2:29:22 I asked him on the show, if you can adopt me.
2:29:23 And I’m like, I’m the Prince of all media.
2:29:26 I fucking do comics and I do fine art.
2:29:26 I do graffiti.
2:29:32 I do, I can do anything, you know, and to have that validation and, and, you know, we don’t
2:29:36 talk regularly, but you know, I started sending him watercolor stuff and then he got into water
2:29:38 and he’s fucking really good.
2:29:40 Like he, like everything he went into it.
2:29:46 And so that was, and then I, at one point I was talking to his producers about being on,
2:29:49 on, uh, Sirius, like right after him.
2:29:52 And I was like, there’s like Jane Cho was right.
2:29:54 I am the greatest, like I can do anything.
2:29:59 And then, you know, people started listening and they’re like, these people are saying the
2:30:00 worst shit ever.
2:30:04 And I was like, I know, but I’m just like, don’t they know I’m a comedian?
2:30:08 Like you never told anyone like, and that’s not funny, but whatever.
2:30:18 I mean, I shouldn’t have said like a lot of the things I said and I never gave, I don’t
2:30:23 like, as an artist, I don’t like, like, here’s my black penis I painted on the wall.
2:30:32 Like I don’t, I paint and I do stuff, but the mistake that I made was words, like in the
2:30:37 spectrum of entertainment and art, everyone watches movies and video games, like that’s up
2:30:37 here.
2:30:39 So that’s the, has the most eyeballs on it.
2:30:45 Then you go all the way down to, at the time, podcasts, art gallery, nobody gets, you do
2:30:46 whatever you want.
2:30:46 No one cares.
2:30:49 And so that’s how I was, I was approaching it.
2:30:55 And people go, when you paint the most fucking vile, obscene, disgusting shit, it’s still a
2:30:56 painting, right?
2:30:59 But when you say stuff, people take it literally.
2:31:08 Like you’re coming at a microphone, like, like it’s an absolute, oh shit, I scared myself.
2:31:10 That was so good.
2:31:11 I love that.
2:31:12 Oh my God.
2:31:12 That was so good.
2:31:14 That was a good scream.
2:31:16 That was like your punk rock.
2:31:18 Someone sampled that, turned that into a punk rock song.
2:31:25 But I, I treated it like it was just another, you know, I was, it was Sean Parker.
2:31:29 I’m not blaming, it was these people in my life that I witnessed as successful.
2:31:32 They didn’t take reality seriously, right?
2:31:37 I’m like, I don’t care what, I’m going to say, I’m going to push it as far as I can because
2:31:40 I don’t care because I don’t respect reality.
2:31:41 I’ve never have.
2:31:46 Like, you saw, you fucking believe in, yes, yes, I believe, look into my eyes.
2:31:49 I believe in Santa Claus, 100%.
2:31:51 There’s no part of me that doubts that.
2:31:52 That’s who you’re talking to.
2:32:01 A mentally ill person working on himself, trying to express himself as, you know, like a perfectly
2:32:04 imperfect, unrepeatable miracle of the universe.
2:32:06 That’s how I, I’m trying my best.
2:32:06 That’s it.
2:32:06 That’s it.
2:32:07 You know?
2:32:10 So I meet David Chang.
2:32:11 I become friends with him.
2:32:12 He’s like, let’s go to dinner.
2:32:13 I’m going to bring my friend.
2:32:15 And his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain.
2:32:20 Immediately, like, I’ve met my, my brother.
2:32:26 Like, I mean, he’s older than me, but it was just, you know, ex-heroin addict, got through
2:32:27 it through workaholism.
2:32:33 And I could see that he was tired, you know?
2:32:38 And he had a, he had a thing that he kept saying, he’s like, what, what’s your life?
2:32:43 You just fucking watch TV and watch the Simpsons.
2:32:46 And, you know, he had this story, like, I have to live an interesting life.
2:32:52 And he’s like, oh, I’m doing, you know, so I, I, I developed a friendship with him because
2:32:53 it was just organic.
2:32:59 Like, it wasn’t like, oh, I want to, he, he was in a way grooming either Chang or me or
2:33:00 Roy Choi.
2:33:00 I don’t know.
2:33:03 He liked Asians, but he was grooming us to take over basically.
2:33:12 And, um, and that, that, that once again fed my ego of like, oh, he’s, he can see what
2:33:14 my mom, he thinks I’m special.
2:33:19 Like the guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over.
2:33:20 Like, oh my God, this is great.
2:33:21 You know?
2:33:26 So he’s like my, you know, it’s like you’re doing, you know, he’s, his show changes.
2:33:27 There’s no reservations.
2:33:29 It’s, it’s, it kept changing.
2:33:35 And so, uh, you know, every time I ate with him, it was insane.
2:33:39 I mean, I don’t know if he had eating disorders or what, but it’s Anthony Bourdain.
2:33:43 So you go in a restaurant and they bring out every fucking food, right?
2:33:44 Like everything.
2:33:48 And I go, I’m watching him.
2:33:50 He takes a sip of water.
2:33:52 Thank you.
2:33:53 Can you wrap this up?
2:33:57 I’m like, you’re not going to eat, you know, because everywhere he went, every chef wanted
2:34:01 to, and he’s like, Dave, if I ate all this shit, like I’d be like 300 pounds, you know?
2:34:03 So I’m like, can I, can I take it home?
2:34:04 He’s like, yeah, you could have it.
2:34:08 And then as I got to know him a little better, every time he came to LA, he’d stay at Chateau
2:34:12 Marmont and I’d be like, is your life just eating at restaurants?
2:34:16 And he’s like, yeah, I go, hey, from now on, just come to my house.
2:34:20 My mom’s like, he’s like, I would fucking love that.
2:34:21 You know, he closes it.
2:34:25 He’s like, so whenever he’d come to LA, he would go to my mom’s house.
2:34:26 My mom would, my mom loved him.
2:34:31 Like Tony and my mom were, she, he, I don’t know what his relationship with his mom was
2:34:35 like, but he loved my mom and he’d always, he knew culture.
2:34:37 So he’d always bring the Asian pairs.
2:34:39 You know, he knew like, oh, I’m going to a Korean’s house.
2:34:48 And then after a while, like when I meet people that I love and I respect, I value the
2:34:48 friendship.
2:34:52 So I don’t go, and that doesn’t mean I don’t value you.
2:34:56 I was like, I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast, but I was
2:34:57 like, fuck it.
2:34:58 Like, let’s just jump into it.
2:34:59 We’ll do it in reverse.
2:35:00 Yeah, we’ll do it in reverse.
2:35:01 And same thing.
2:35:04 Like, I never asked to be on a show.
2:35:08 I never, but after a while, he just was like, Dave, I’m doing LA.
2:35:10 And I go, but haven’t you done LA?
2:35:12 He goes, yeah, but this is specifically Koreatown.
2:35:14 And I go, okay.
2:35:15 I mean, I grew up in Korea.
2:35:16 I was born and raised in Koreatown.
2:35:21 But so then his producer, his production company, 0.0.
2:35:24 I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up, I’m everything.
2:35:24 I’m the director.
2:35:25 I’m the production.
2:35:30 It’s just like Thumbs Up is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy in like a chase van.
2:35:30 That’s it.
2:35:31 It’s four people.
2:35:34 But, you know, I was like, oh, this is like what a real TV show is like.
2:35:36 You had guys setting up shots.
2:35:37 And it was like a lot of people.
2:35:40 And I go, oh, fuck, this seems cool.
2:35:40 Like, you don’t have to.
2:35:48 So his producer calls me and goes, okay, we’re going to set this show up for like two months
2:35:48 from now.
2:35:52 And it’s Koreatown centric.
2:35:56 And I go, okay, but do you want to do fake?
2:35:57 Like, I’m down.
2:35:58 Like, what do you guys need?
2:36:05 Like, I know all the restaurants and stuff in Koreatown now, but Koreans don’t eat Korean
2:36:08 food, like from my era, we didn’t have any money.
2:36:10 So when we go out, we eat at Sizzler.
2:36:11 We eat at Denny’s.
2:36:12 We don’t eat.
2:36:13 We get Korean food at home, you know?
2:36:21 Like, so if he’s trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it’s in Koreatown,
2:36:21 it’s Sizzler.
2:36:25 And like everyone, every Korean American I know eats at Sizzler.
2:36:31 And so she’s like, so you’re telling me we’re going to bring Anthony Bourdain to, you know,
2:36:33 spend all this money to take him to Sizzler.
2:36:35 I go, hey, I just told you, like, I’ll fake it.
2:36:37 Like, I’ll, I know all the new spots.
2:36:38 I know all the chefs.
2:36:41 Like, we couldn’t, but I didn’t eat that shit growing up.
2:36:42 He goes, no, Tony loves authenticity.
2:36:44 I’m like, we’re going to fucking Sizzler then.
2:36:46 So we do this whole episode.
2:36:55 He comes to my warehouse and he’s, I mean, it’s like, I mean, pitfall after pitfall.
2:37:00 Like, it’s, I remember at the time Channing Tatum came to my, like, he’s like, his agent,
2:37:04 this guy, Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum’s agent’s Korean.
2:37:07 And he calls me and he goes, my client Channing Tatum loves you.
2:37:13 And like, it’s like after all these things and getting canceled over and over again in comics
2:37:18 and whatever field I went in, there was always, you’re not supposed to do that.
2:37:20 You’re not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card.
2:37:22 You’re not supposed to paint over this graffiti.
2:37:25 You’re not supposed to, there’s rules that you’re not following.
2:37:27 And I’m like, it was this, my whole life.
2:37:31 So I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that.
2:37:36 And he showed up with, with his agent and he’s like, he had just done, he was a pretty boy.
2:37:38 He’s one of the handsome, most handsome guys, but he’s so talented.
2:37:40 And I’m like, I don’t fucking want to meet Channing Tatum.
2:37:42 I don’t care about Channing Tatum.
2:37:48 And then he came to the warehouse and he’s like, don’t think of me as just like the pretty
2:37:50 boy dancing, step up from the streets guy.
2:37:57 Like I’m about to do GI Joe, but like, I’m like, and I had, I’d put out zines and like
2:38:00 self-published books and I write the way I talk right now.
2:38:01 And he’d read that.
2:38:05 And I was like, Channing Tatum read, you know, he goes, you’re a great writer.
2:38:07 And I’m like, there it is again.
2:38:08 I’m like, I write porn.
2:38:09 He’s like, no, no, no.
2:38:13 You have a way of talking and writing that I need to be a part of that.
2:38:15 Like whatever I go, but I’ve never written a script.
2:38:17 He goes, whatever you write, I’m going to produce it.
2:38:20 And I go, holy shit, dude, this is amazing.
2:38:26 And then like, I don’t know, I’m time jumping, but at some, at some point I got a little cocky
2:38:32 and he put out a 21 Jump Street, which Johnny Depp again, you know, and I said, uh, there’s
2:38:35 a ice cubes talking to Korean Jesus during that movie.
2:38:37 Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus?
2:38:41 He’s like, oh yeah, we made that for the, I go, if you guys want to work with me, I need
2:38:42 that Korean Jesus.
2:38:46 So they sent me the Korean Jesus and I, I put it in my warehouse and I pray, I prayed
2:38:46 to it every night.
2:38:51 I prayed to Korean Jesus and what else?
2:38:58 I mean, uh, because of all the canceling, it’s like, if I get canceled at Marvel, then
2:38:59 DC wants to work with me.
2:39:03 So it’s like, once again, being rewarded, rewarded for the bad behavior.
2:39:05 So there’s this editor at DC Comics.
2:39:06 Oh, cool.
2:39:09 I can’t draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman.
2:39:15 And he, this guy, Axel Alonso, who worked at Vertigo, which was like the more adult, like
2:39:16 Sandman and stuff like that.
2:39:20 He contacts me and he’s like, I’ve been reading your fucking fucked up articles in Vice.
2:39:22 He’s like, you’re a writer.
2:39:26 I go, that’s the thing that I have the most respect for is writing.
2:39:27 Like I have a book in me.
2:39:30 I’ve never, I haven’t sat down, but it’s like, it’s in here.
2:39:36 I’m too scared to, to, to get it out, but he’s like, he’s like, yeah, your art’s okay.
2:39:37 I go, okay.
2:39:42 And he goes, I want you to write a book about, you know, I, it was like Koreatown gangsters
2:39:44 or, and I, it was shit that I didn’t know about.
2:39:45 I was like, fuck it.
2:39:46 I’ll, I’ll make it up.
2:39:48 And I was like, yeah, I’m going to write it like this.
2:39:51 And he’s like, no, you’re going to write it and someone else is going to draw it.
2:39:52 I was like, oh, okay.
2:39:59 But he was like, and then I started writing it and, and, uh, I, I start writing him emails
2:40:01 like it’s, it’s, it’s done.
2:40:03 And, you know, email bounced back.
2:40:05 He quit and like moved to Marvel.
2:40:08 And I’m like, oh, oh fuck.
2:40:10 It was almost about to happen again, you know?
2:40:16 And then, um, and then, uh, my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger.
2:40:20 And I’m, so I’m, I’m in my full workaholism.
2:40:24 Um, I, I, I’ve, I’m aware that I’m an addict.
2:40:26 I’m like, I’m in my full addiction.
2:40:32 I’m gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band,
2:40:38 Mongchi, doing the news for vice, doing art shows like legally around the world and doing
2:40:41 illegal, like just, and people are like, are you on Coke?
2:40:42 I’m like, I don’t have chemical.
2:40:44 I don’t do, I get high off.
2:40:50 Like I, and each thing is like, I have to do the, I, I’m not enough.
2:40:52 That’s what I believe about.
2:40:54 That’s what I did believe about myself.
2:40:55 And still sometimes it is.
2:41:02 I was, everything the world had shown me is that besides from my mother is that you’re not.
2:41:06 And that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me.
2:41:09 So it was like, you’re telling me I’m the best, but then you threw me out like trash.
2:41:17 So a lot of mixed messages and, and, and, and the messaging that I heard growing up that
2:41:19 I received was you’re not enough.
2:41:23 You’re women don’t date Asians.
2:41:26 Your art looks like shit.
2:41:29 It’s, you’re not following the graffiti rules.
2:41:35 Your art’s a little too aggressive to be refined for the, it’s just, everything is just, so everything
2:41:40 had to be, I need to be, it’s not, it’s not like I can kind of be in this field.
2:41:42 Like I have to have the best podcast.
2:41:44 And in my mind that was Howard Stern.
2:41:49 So I was like, however extreme he is, I have to go like Howard’s the ringleader, but I need
2:41:53 to be the guy that’s the, you know, and I don’t care what happens to me because I’ve
2:41:56 had third degrees burns all over my foot.
2:41:59 And like, my brother’s read my diary, I’ve been stabbed in my, like, I don’t care what
2:42:02 you do to me because it’ll never be what I can do to myself.
2:42:03 I’ve hurt myself.
2:42:11 So, so then, uh, I’m in Russia or the North pole interviewing.
2:42:13 It’s my first time doing the serious news.
2:42:18 And I remember at the time, Shane and Eddie and everyone at Vice, we sat down and they’re
2:42:21 like, Dave, your podcast is out of control.
2:42:24 And it’s like, and they, and like, they all know me.
2:42:26 They’re like, you can’t, you can’t say those things.
2:42:27 I go, I can’t say what the fuck I want.
2:42:29 I’m like, this is Vice, baby.
2:42:30 Like we did.
2:42:31 They’re like, Dave.
2:42:35 And, and it was like second season of Vice news on HBO.
2:42:40 The first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea getting a lot of attention.
2:42:43 We start getting Emmy nominations.
2:42:46 And the year that we did it, I won the Emmy for the news.
2:42:50 I’m like, you know, my ego is like, Oh, the first time doing the news fucking nailed it.
2:42:55 And they’re like, I’m God, dude, I can do serious news and I could do weird butthole talk on
2:42:56 this show.
2:43:01 And I could do serious fucking delicate watercolors that could be in a museum.
2:43:05 And I could do the most craziest, like you can’t fucking put me in a box.
2:43:09 And if you try to, I’m like, I am better than you.
2:43:11 I’m better than you as a human being.
2:43:12 I’m better than you as an art.
2:43:16 And it was like, my friends just like, cause it’s easier when you’re an alcoholic or drug
2:43:16 addict.
2:43:18 You’re like, bro, you’re unhinged.
2:43:19 You’re out of control.
2:43:27 But it was just narcissism, hating myself, self-destructive behavior, just, and like the people would come
2:43:28 up to come with me.
2:43:30 I’d bring them to, cause I controlled my addiction.
2:43:35 Like I would, I knew that I had a problem and I know the nature of addiction is you can’t
2:43:36 stop.
2:43:41 So I did something that I’ve never heard another addict do, which is I would hire people, close
2:43:44 friends, being like, I’m an addict.
2:43:45 I cannot be trusted.
2:43:46 I’m a liar.
2:43:47 I’m a thief.
2:43:52 And so when I’m in my gambling, cause gambling state, I don’t hold my money.
2:43:57 So as soon as I’m win the number I told you I’m win, I need you to punch me in the face.
2:43:59 I need you to drag me away from the table.
2:44:03 Cause now I’m going to say anything to keep going so I can never touch my own money.
2:44:08 If I’m, if I, if you see me falling in love with the girl and going into my love addiction,
2:44:10 I need you to come and punch me in my face.
2:44:15 And like, I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me.
2:44:21 It’s like, like if I was an, if I was an alcoholic, it would be, I’m at a bar and after two drinks,
2:44:23 if you see me take a third, boom, and drag me out of the bar.
2:44:29 So in that way, very sadomasochistic, but successful.
2:44:36 Like I never, cause I had someone and I, and they would only get paid if I, they got me to stop.
2:44:36 Right.
2:44:40 But then I would pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to, you know.
2:44:45 So at the height of my workaholism is the height of my addiction.
2:44:48 Like I got every, I don’t sleep.
2:44:49 There’s days.
2:44:53 And then I had a heart attack when I was 35, an angina attack.
2:44:56 I collapsed, I went blind, I collapsed.
2:45:00 And of course, like a lot of stories, as soon as I, I didn’t go to the hospital,
2:45:02 as soon as I woke up, I was like, what the fuck was that?
2:45:05 Like I woke up 30 hours later, another day.
2:45:11 And I just went back to gambling, but it was like, you know, I could go into euphoric recall
2:45:14 and just start telling like, but I, I don’t want to like glamor.
2:45:18 Cause it’s like, I figured out how to, how to be in the world.
2:45:24 If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these
2:45:30 jobs, then I will be validated and, and congratulated and held up high in this culture.
2:45:36 Even though if I’m dying inside, I need to, I’ve spent so much time in shame.
2:45:41 I need to go, I want to see what it feels like to be like a winner, you know?
2:45:46 But then that’s when I got there, I go, what do you do when you get to the heavy is the crown?
2:45:49 It’s lonely at the, like, I got to the top and I was like, kind of boring.
2:45:52 Let’s the kid in the village with the match.
2:45:53 Let’s burn it down.
2:45:54 We got here.
2:45:55 It’s like, and that was my childhood.
2:46:00 Literally, I would spend a lot of time building giant Legos with all the loot.
2:46:04 Like we had like all mismatched Legos that was like, you know, a hand-me-downs and I would
2:46:06 build a giant starship and my brother would come in.
2:46:07 Cool.
2:46:08 We just smash it.
2:46:13 I was like, I worked so long on that, but that was me doing.
2:46:17 My brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career.
2:46:18 Let me just do it myself.
2:46:19 Let me self-sabotage myself.
2:46:20 Self-sabotage.
2:46:23 It was like mini suicides, you know?
2:46:28 And so it’s all, I’m like, here, here I am.
2:46:29 It’s all, it’s fine.
2:46:33 I’m finally going to be, you know, validated as a human being, you know?
2:46:39 And then I get, you know, I get Vice telling me, hey, you can’t do your podcast and the
2:46:40 news.
2:46:41 And I go, then go fuck yourself, you know?
2:46:44 And then we win the Emmy, but I’m not part of that anymore.
2:46:49 And then, and then I can’t keep track because I keep, they’re like, did you know this artist
2:46:52 got caught on saying, I go, it’s on my podcast.
2:46:53 It was my podcast.
2:46:57 You don’t fucking, it’s not like I, I did it on purpose.
2:47:07 You know, anyways, it just kept happening and I, I’m at the sickest I’ve been mentally
2:47:12 and I’m trying to make sense of my situation while the world is also has its own issues.
2:47:17 And I, and I, I just, I like, I, I hit my bottom.
2:47:22 I just went so off the deep end and my friends were all like, you’re going to die.
2:47:28 Like, it’s not like a normal OD with drugs, but you, you like literally had a heart attack
2:47:33 from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight, like masturbating nonstop
2:47:39 to pornography, um, just like video games.
2:47:44 Like I couldn’t stop playing Angry Birds, which like everything’s like, so I can make a joke
2:47:44 out of it.
2:47:48 And they’re like, that’s your safety thing is to like make a joke out of it.
2:47:55 And so I walk in to, you know, a meeting and, and, and, uh, Channing Tatum’s dude is like,
2:47:57 Channing ain’t fucking working with you.
2:47:58 And it was, it wasn’t him.
2:48:01 It was like, Hey, I’ve spent all, it was the agency.
2:48:05 It was like, we’ve spent all this time building up a heartthrob teen idol thing.
2:48:07 He’s not going to be fucking seen with a scumbag like you.
2:48:09 I go, Oh shit.
2:48:10 It’s happening again.
2:48:11 Shame.
2:48:13 I walk into 0.0.
2:48:17 So Bourdain’s like, when I’m done, it’s you.
2:48:20 You’re going to, here’s a book deal with my publishing company.
2:48:23 It, your show is going to be on CNN.
2:48:27 It’s going to be exactly like mine, but with art, like you’re going to travel around the
2:48:27 art.
2:48:29 And it’s like authentic to you.
2:48:30 Cause you already do that.
2:48:35 Um, I’m just like, Holy shit, dude.
2:48:39 This is, it paid off all the bad behavior.
2:48:44 Like I met my kindred spirit and, and I knew he wasn’t happy.
2:48:49 That’s one of my, I can’t watch, like it’s been years since, since all that happened.
2:49:00 And I still, I can’t, I can’t, like, I felt, I felt like I met someone who finally understood
2:49:00 me.
2:49:08 So I know it wasn’t him, but you know, I don’t remember the guy’s name.
2:49:11 I remember them and they could have told me over the phone.
2:49:14 They’re like, Dave, it was like getting caught at the principal’s office.
2:49:17 It was like, and I’m, and I’m pumped.
2:49:20 I’m like, my mom was right.
2:49:20 Jane Jo was right.
2:49:24 Like the, the most interesting man on the planet.
2:49:28 Like my friend, Tony is like handing, you know, handing me the baton.
2:49:31 Like, and I’m, I’m going to do, like, I’m going to go for it.
2:49:31 Like I wasn’t married.
2:49:32 I didn’t have kids.
2:49:36 I’m like, I’m going to fucking really, really, like I took it so seriously.
2:49:40 Went to Nat Geo and like took all the meetings and.
2:49:48 You know, I remember sitting at a table just like this and the whole 0.0 production team
2:49:49 is like, we love Tony.
2:49:52 Like he goes, but we are not working with you.
2:49:54 And I go, you couldn’t fucking send an email.
2:49:55 Like, like, what are you shaming?
2:49:59 And, and all of this is fuel for me.
2:50:00 Like, they don’t know this.
2:50:07 I’m like, the more you fucking do this to me, the more I, you’re giving me my drug, which
2:50:09 I’m chasing, which is anger and shame.
2:50:11 It’s a fucking powerful drug.
2:50:11 Right.
2:50:13 And I go, oh, okay.
2:50:15 And just another on the list that I got to prove wrong.
2:50:19 Like, I will make you regret the same way Chip regrets fucking talking.
2:50:23 Like, I will make you feel you come at me.
2:50:25 You better fucking kill me.
2:50:27 Cause I’m going to fucking destroy you now.
2:50:30 Like, I am going to make the most awesome show ever.
2:50:33 And, you know, Tony called me in a poll.
2:50:35 He’s like, dude, I don’t like, they’re their own company.
2:50:38 Like we work together, but they, you know, they, the optics aren’t good.
2:50:43 And I go, all right, you know, and I was like, missed it by that much.
2:50:51 Like, so it, and, and, and I had grown accustomed to it.
2:50:56 Like, this was, it’s not a new, it’s, if I, if I could just keep telling another, like, oh,
2:50:57 and then Marvel rejected me.
2:51:05 Then DC, then the episode I did with Tony, I take him to Sizzler.
2:51:09 I show him how I fucking did a fusion with a meatball and a taco.
2:51:12 It was true to me, right?
2:51:14 You know, I hammed it up a little bit for the camera.
2:51:17 I wrote my, wore my like shiny red Sizzler suit, but that was me.
2:51:19 That was how my family, and it resonated.
2:51:21 It was the most watched episode.
2:51:24 Like I introduced him to Estevan Oriol and Mr. Cartoon.
2:51:26 He loved all the lowrider cars.
2:51:29 It was a fucking LA episode and it was like my friends.
2:51:32 And it was like, it was awesome.
2:51:33 I felt so good.
2:51:36 And I just started getting like Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson.
2:51:39 Like, and the episode is me talking shit about how horrible their food is,
2:51:42 but it has this, I’ll do it guys.
2:51:42 I’ll do it.
2:51:46 And so they’re, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re like,
2:51:48 it’s the most watched episode of that.
2:51:50 And then we won an Emmy for that season.
2:51:53 And I’m just like, and then that happens.
2:51:54 And I’m like, holy shit.
2:51:57 Like, and then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on.
2:51:58 And that episode is just missing.
2:51:59 I mean, it’s back now, but they took it off.
2:52:04 And I was like, just keep striking, you know?
2:52:05 And I’m like, what did I do?
2:52:08 You know, like me playing Vic, like, what did I do?
2:52:09 Did I do that?
2:52:10 Like, I’m Urkel.
2:52:12 I’m like, like, you’re a fucking idiot, dude.
2:52:14 You do dumb shit that you shouldn’t do.
2:52:17 You should shut the fuck up and just, and.
2:52:26 When I meet the most powerful intellectually, like just these powerhouse humans.
2:52:32 Once again, it doesn’t always have to be sexual abuse, but it usually is with men, right?
2:52:37 I mean, women, I don’t know that experience because I’m not a woman, but for a man to take
2:52:41 your humanity like that, then I see, because it’s PTSD, it’s right.
2:52:46 Post-traumatic stress disorder, but then every now and then, like, I don’t know what the
2:52:48 exact stats are.
2:52:54 You get PT, I’m making this up, PTGD, post-traumatic growth disorder.
2:52:58 It’s like, that should have turned me into a drug addict, homeless person.
2:53:03 But instead I took all that pain and I was like, okay, rage, I’ll show you.
2:53:05 I’ll fucking show you.
2:53:07 You should have never done that to me.
2:53:12 You should have never.
2:53:22 You should have never minimized me and put me down and disregarded me.
2:53:25 And now I have to teach you a lesson.
2:53:29 And I have to show you who you’re fucking with.
2:53:33 And it’s such a horrible.
2:53:51 It’s such a fucking, it’s such a painful way to live life.
2:53:54 And I, I, I can’t live with that pain.
2:53:58 So I have to just keep doing more.
2:53:59 It’s never enough.
2:54:03 I have to just keep showing you that I’m enough.
2:54:19 So then I’m just, I, I, I’m living in like a very, I know I’m telling a very name droppy,
2:54:27 like douchey LA story, but you know, I have Anthony Bourdain, who’s, I consider a friend
2:54:28 and my hero and my idol.
2:54:32 Like I was in a gang called Koreans God Bad.
2:54:38 That was two people, me and my friend, Harry Kim, but we wrote it everywhere, KGB everywhere.
2:54:43 And then I remember the episode came out and he wrote KGB forever or something like that.
2:54:48 Koreans God, I’m like, fucking my gang is Harry Kim and Anthony Bourdain.
2:54:56 Like I just, I was like, it just, it made me so happy that it’s like, Tony Bourdain is
2:54:57 repping my set.
2:55:02 You know, like, like I’m a fucking gang, you know, it was like, it was two fucking dumb asses
2:55:05 just writing, drawing dumb buck tooth whales.
2:55:07 And I mean, I miss that guy so much.
2:55:13 The people that were close to him, like you and Joe, it’s the same response.
2:55:14 Always.
2:55:19 So then I, I’m, you know, I’m like lost.
2:55:24 I’m, I’m, I’m getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom.
2:55:33 And I get, uh, I get a call from David Arquette, like the actor, you know, and I, I love all
2:55:38 the Arquettes, you know, but, um, David, you know, this is LA shit, right?
2:55:43 He just reaches out and he’s like, Hey, I am watching TV right now with my, I think fiance
2:55:43 at the time.
2:55:46 And we just saw your Anthony Bourdain.
2:55:48 And he’s like, that’s the most fucking LA shit.
2:55:52 He’s like, I wrote, I was in a, uh, crew called KGB.
2:55:53 Kids gone bad.
2:55:55 And I was like, no, Kareem’s gone bad, you know?
2:55:58 Um, and he goes, it’s crazy.
2:56:01 Like I’m, I used to do graffiti and tag.
2:56:06 I used to write KGB and I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family.
2:56:08 And he goes, and I’m turning, I forgot.
2:56:10 He was like, I’m turning 45 or 50.
2:56:13 I forgot how old he was, but it was like a big one, like 40.
2:56:17 And I’m having it at like, you know, Sizzler’s almost out of business.
2:56:18 I think there’s like three left in LA.
2:56:22 And he’s like, and it’s at the Sizzler that I grew up and I would love for you to be here.
2:56:28 And, uh, all, all that stuff always, all like weird celebrity stuff always makes me nervous.
2:56:34 Cause I’m like, I don’t know if they’re going to be fake or, you know, and I’m a sensitive person.
2:56:39 Like if I’m meeting new people and they don’t like me, I’m like, oh, I’m a piece of, you know, I, I, I’m sensitive.
2:56:41 I’m a sensitive artist.
2:56:45 Um, so I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter.
2:56:47 I was like, Hey, can you come with me?
2:56:52 And we get to Sizzler and it’s packed and it’s, there’s the buffet bar with the cheese toast.
2:56:55 And he’s like, Dave, Dave, I want, I want you to meet some friends here.
2:56:56 Come sit at this table.
2:57:02 And I sit down and it’s Sasha Baron Cohen, like my fucking hero and Pee Wee Herman.
2:57:05 And I’m like, Holy fuck, dude.
2:57:09 And, you know, both of them are just huge art fans.
2:57:14 So like, they don’t know my art, but you know, David Arquette talking, he’s like, this guy’s an awesome artist.
2:57:16 And they’re like, oh, cool.
2:57:17 We want to check it out.
2:57:24 And, um, so, you know, Sasha Baron Cohen, like collects a lot of Banksy and this and he’s like, fuck, dude, I got to come to your studio.
2:57:26 I got to, you know, so then I’m like, oh, cool.
2:57:30 Like once again, like this, oh, people like me.
2:57:36 And if people like me, then maybe I like myself, you know, like, and it’s, it’s nice.
2:57:38 It’s nice to be liked.
2:57:42 It feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to.
2:57:42 Right.
2:57:45 So especially Pee Wee Herman’s my art god.
2:57:48 Like I said, Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope.
2:57:50 But for me, that’s what I grew up on.
2:57:59 That fucking character, the full commitment to that character, the voice, the king of cartoon, Penny, the stop motion animation.
2:58:06 I just, it spoke to me, you know, all the Gary Panter art.
2:58:12 So, um, I go, fuck, I don’t know when I’m going to meet this guy again.
2:58:18 I go, hey, uh, I don’t know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you did a movie called Blow.
2:58:21 And he’s like, oh yeah, Blow, you know.
2:58:26 I go, hey, uh, did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step?
2:58:29 And he’s like, and like, I’m trying to read his eyes.
2:58:30 He’s like, no, I don’t remember that.
2:58:32 And I was like, ah, I guess someone, you know.
2:58:35 But I did get his number that night.
2:58:42 And then, um, you know, as I get, I hit, like, like I wouldn’t be here today without my friends.
2:58:49 Just all who love me came and they’re like, Dave, you’re not, like, it went too far this way.
2:58:54 You know, you used to be this sweet, nice, humble guy and just, you just, you need a lot of help.
2:59:01 So I, like everything else, I just dedicate, I stopped, I, obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life.
2:59:17 But, including plant medicine, therapy, rehabs, men’s groups, 12-step meetings, just, I, whatever, if someone said it was gonna help you, I’m like, you’re just breaking, like, generations of, ah, all fucking Asians hit their kids.
2:59:22 All, you know, everyone got sent away, you know, just like, I know, but I, I want it to stop.
2:59:25 It’s either I fucking kill myself or I need, I need it to stop.
2:59:33 And enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough.
2:59:40 And I, and I did, what, I got it, the podcast, the band, like, the people, and they go, they’ll be fine.
2:59:42 Everyone’s gonna figure it out.
2:59:45 And I, and I got help.
2:59:54 And, um, you know, as soon as I was out of the first rehab, like, 45 days, I was like, I’m gonna do a podcast about this.
2:59:59 And they’re like, Matt out there, he’s just like, hey, uh, why don’t you live this life before you start telling it?
3:00:00 And he’s like, but I learned so many.
3:00:02 And I go, yeah, but why don’t you implement it in your life?
3:00:04 And so I’m 49 now.
3:00:07 I rarely do podcasts.
3:00:09 I’d still do something creative every single day.
3:00:11 I like to do it with other people.
3:00:19 I, I’ve, I’ve, you know, I’d like to thank the sponsor today for this, God.
3:00:23 You know, I know people are like, oh, you’re, you’re all, you’re religious.
3:00:28 I go, I don’t, you know, I don’t believe in God, but I still pray to him.
3:00:39 And like, God, whatever you want to call it, the, like, whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn’t care if I believe in him.
3:00:40 He’s still there.
3:00:41 Right.
3:00:42 It’s like such an ego thing.
3:00:46 I don’t, who cares what you, the thing, it’s like saying you don’t believe in the ocean.
3:00:47 The ocean is still there.
3:00:49 So I want to thank that guy.
3:00:56 And, um, and so as I live this life and then I start to be like, what is my purpose?
3:00:56 Why am I here?
3:01:01 What is, you know, before your art was about like disgustingness and offending people.
3:01:06 And it’s, it was just a fuck you just showing people, Hey, Asian people aren’t all quiet.
3:01:07 Like you’re a rebel.
3:01:10 Like, show, like you’re supposed to shut the fuck up and become a lawyer or a doctor.
3:01:17 Um, and then just like, I always tell people, they go, Oh, how do I make it?
3:01:21 I want to be, I go, I’m an expert in disappointing my parents.
3:01:23 You must disappoint your parents.
3:01:30 Like my dad is so disappointed in me over and over again until he’s not, but I’m like,
3:01:32 what would have happened if I didn’t disappoint him?
3:01:34 I would have got a pretty high SAT.
3:01:41 I would have, you know, probably been on my second marriage lawyer golf, like, and he’d be
3:01:43 like, ah, I don’t know.
3:01:43 I don’t know.
3:01:46 But I, I know that he’s proud of me now.
3:01:49 And it was like a long, hard path to get there.
3:01:56 And so, um, I go, I, and part of me, you know, if you can’t tell by now, it goes like
3:01:58 this, the pendulum swings very hard.
3:02:05 So I said to myself, I’m going to, like everything up until now has been about, look at me, let
3:02:05 me show you.
3:02:09 And it’s like, and I go, it’s, it’s, I got to take some space for me now.
3:02:15 And, and, and, you know, I, I work with all these youth groups and stuff and people go,
3:02:20 Hey, you know, you did a lot of media and you did a lot of shit where you put yourself
3:02:25 out there showing the worst part of yourself and like trying to prove to people that you’re
3:02:25 not a good person.
3:02:31 It’s like, you know, it would, it would like touch people and help people to see like your
3:02:32 journey and your path.
3:02:33 And I go, fuck that.
3:02:34 I’m not going to put myself through that.
3:02:36 Like I’m taking space.
3:02:39 And they’re like, yeah, but like at some point, are you going to share your story?
3:02:41 And I go, no, that’s too literal.
3:02:42 I hate words.
3:02:43 Words can be confused.
3:02:45 Words can be misconstrued.
3:02:46 I’m not doing that.
3:02:47 I’m just, I’m just doing this.
3:02:48 And this is enough.
3:02:51 Like your ego goes, Oh, I’m working with 12 kids today.
3:02:55 But if it was filmed, it could reach millions of people.
3:02:57 And it’s like, no, you’re working with 12 kids today.
3:02:58 And that’s it.
3:02:59 And that’s enough.
3:03:00 Right.
3:03:08 But then at some point after year, this is years, a decade of recovery, I thought, well,
3:03:14 part of the reason why I hate working with not like Netflix, Hulu, HBO, it doesn’t matter.
3:03:15 Like they’re all corporations.
3:03:18 They could be cool or whatever.
3:03:22 But, um, and even podcasts, which was, that’s the conversation we had.
3:03:23 I’m like, it’s all gets edited.
3:03:25 It’s like, as soon as anything gets a little.
3:03:30 And so I go, I’ll just make my own show because I have money to do that.
3:03:31 And it’s not going to cost that much.
3:03:34 And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won’t.
3:03:41 So I started making my version of Pee Wee’s Playhouse, which was, um, the Chow Show.
3:03:44 And it came out on FX on Hulu.
3:03:52 And, and I got to learn what, taking notes and having, you know, corporate feedback and whatever.
3:03:59 I’m grateful that it happened, but they killed a lot of the episodes and, um, and everyone’s
3:04:00 like, what’s your, who’s your dream guest?
3:04:01 And I was like, it doesn’t matter.
3:04:02 I’ll talk to anybody.
3:04:05 I’ll talk to like the garbage man.
3:04:06 I’ll talk to, you know, but they’re like, it’s for TV.
3:04:09 So you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people.
3:04:11 And I was like, I want Pee Wee Herman, you know?
3:04:14 And, uh, I had his number still from Sizzler.
3:04:22 So I called him and I, you know, and Pee Wee Herman’s like, I don’t know if he’s just one
3:04:25 of those people that once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every
3:04:27 year or a Christmas card.
3:04:30 And I was like, it just, every time I got it, I would send, show all my friends.
3:04:32 I’m like, it just made me feel so good.
3:04:40 Um, so yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about like what he wanted from
3:04:41 my art to disrupt the world.
3:04:46 I have the nice message from Howard Stern and I have the voice.
3:04:50 So I, I called Pee Wee and he’s like, Dave, I got some stuff, some health stuff going on.
3:04:54 And, and, uh, and he’s like, I feel honored.
3:04:54 Thank you.
3:04:56 Like, you know, I, I love your art.
3:04:59 You know, now he got to learn a little bit about me and he’s like, and I would love to
3:05:01 be on your show, but I just, I don’t know.
3:05:02 I don’t want to be on camera anymore.
3:05:07 And, and he’s like, you could send the episodes and I’ll, I, I’ll give you some, like, if you
3:05:08 open to it.
3:05:15 I was like, of course, you know, and, uh, and it was just, it just like, I couldn’t,
3:05:21 I couldn’t believe that I was talking to him and he like was talking back to me as a equal.
3:05:24 And then, uh, I mean, but I got it right away.
3:05:26 He’s, he’s not going to do it, you know?
3:05:31 And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, you paint butts really good.
3:05:36 He got it.
3:05:37 He got it.
3:05:45 And I, you know, he’s like, I’m, I’m old.
3:05:46 I don’t want to talk on the microphone.
3:05:57 Um, so I don’t know if that has answered your question about, um, the South.
3:06:03 I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me, but I don’t know.
3:06:06 Like when people, like, I feel like you’re an open person.
3:06:13 So if you ask me something, I’m like, and you’re ready to go into my head space and, and we can
3:06:14 go there together.
3:06:17 Then I feel like cared for, listened to.
3:06:19 And like, I’m like, cause you know, you listen and they’re not present.
3:06:20 They’re looking at their phone.
3:06:22 They’re like, okay, this show is two hours.
3:06:26 And I’m like, I got law, you know, and that’s also how I write.
3:06:29 Very long run on sentences, no punctuation.
3:06:38 Um, so there’s no, like creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because
3:06:44 it’s not like my, my path is not someone else’s path.
3:06:51 And, um, and today it’s just, uh, every day I wake up, which with what I didn’t have before,
3:06:52 which is gratitude.
3:06:56 I just wake up and it’s like, I had a horrible day today.
3:06:58 Like it was not good.
3:07:08 Like the fucking, uh, like flat tire, uh, appointment canceled, move back, fucking crazy family shit
3:07:09 happening with my dad.
3:07:14 And I was just like, I, I wasn’t going to cancel, but the feeling was like, it’s not this, not the
3:07:15 right head space to go.
3:07:17 And then I said, you know what?
3:07:28 Every, like, I could sit there and like self, uh, analyze, Oh, you have depression.
3:07:28 You have this.
3:07:33 And it’s like almost some weird OCD, like, and you’re a horrible person and you, and you,
3:07:36 you have antisocial traits and then go, okay.
3:07:37 And then what are you going to do about it?
3:07:38 You know?
3:07:47 And so I, I sit back now and if I examine my life like a scientist, I go, Hey, uh, what
3:07:51 was, what was, what was all that shit about on your pod?
3:07:52 Why did you say that stuff on your podcast?
3:07:59 Why, why did you like do that thing that’s against your value system?
3:08:05 Why did you, what was about the fucking, like all the suicidal ideation, all the stuff
3:08:07 times you try to, like, what was that about?
3:08:07 You know?
3:08:14 And not just, like I said, like logically, I know if I sound hypocritical, not just trying
3:08:20 to like analyze it, like, but just an examination of my, my own heart, like doing an x-ray of
3:08:20 my heart.
3:08:22 It’s like, what, what were you feeling then?
3:08:27 And what, and why, like, what is the shame hitting and why did you do that?
3:08:34 And like, so I sit there and I go, we live in a society, I’ll use I statements.
3:08:40 I live in the way, the culture I was grown was when someone asks you how you’re doing,
3:08:40 it’s just good.
3:08:41 Okay.
3:08:42 Which aren’t emotions.
3:08:43 That’s all you say.
3:08:47 You don’t go, Oh, let me tell you, like, I’m feeling shame today.
3:08:55 And I, you know, so we live, I live in, I live, I was raised in a culture of everything’s fine.
3:08:56 Everything’s okay.
3:08:57 Get along to go along.
3:09:02 You know, I was a lot of like Asian, the only Asian family in like a white neighborhood
3:09:07 or black neighborhoods was like, don’t, it’s a lot of immigrant story, right?
3:09:08 Like don’t rock the boat.
3:09:09 Don’t do anything to stand out.
3:09:11 We’re guests in this country.
3:09:12 We’re lucky to be here.
3:09:18 Don’t do basically everything I did, you know, like, you know, keep clear up the campground,
3:09:19 leave it nice.
3:09:28 And so I sit here and if I’m being introspective, this is all, this stuff is like, this is why
3:09:33 I say this would be intimate because it’s just private stuff that I don’t, like, I’m trying
3:09:36 to just, you know, know my own heart.
3:09:46 So it’s like, what, why, what is the insane opening Pokemon packs about?
3:09:47 Like, right.
3:09:51 You could turn that into a joke or like, what is, what is the unmet need?
3:09:53 Like, what is your depression telling you right now?
3:09:55 What is your anger?
3:10:00 If your anger is like unmatched with like, oh, there was like a little flare up at school.
3:10:02 Some kid said something to your kid.
3:10:06 And then like your response is like, yeah, like what’s that about?
3:10:10 So instead of shaming myself and going, I’m a piece of shit.
3:10:16 Oh, I did all this work and I, and I’m still this, it’s just, and I think if I can get quiet
3:10:22 and right-sized in that moment, instead of, oh, I need to like make a story in my head to
3:10:26 be like, and just, just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable.
3:10:30 Like if I can do that, I couldn’t do that before.
3:10:35 I can’t like, you have to either look at me like I’m nothing or I’m the greatest.
3:10:41 I can’t just, oh, Dave’s kind of boring today or he’s kind of not making sense or he feels
3:10:43 like I couldn’t, it had to be all or nothing.
3:10:48 It was very black and white, very Christian the way I was raised, OCD, like God’s way or
3:10:48 Satan’s way.
3:10:54 And so now I just go, that’s, that’s Palo Alto.
3:11:00 If I could find the Palo Alto in my heart, just like the mundane, culturally, like if I could
3:11:07 sit in the boring, mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare, dare to be moderate and,
3:11:15 and just like, like I’m, like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what’s, what’s the sensations?
3:11:18 And I could, then that’s where the brilliance is.
3:11:20 Then I could find my inner spark.
3:11:26 I could find, and, and, and, and then in that is when I feel the closest to you and other,
3:11:31 like if I’m with another person who’s closed, this is like, just like banging my head against
3:11:31 the wall.
3:11:37 But if I can meet another spirit or soul and you’re, it doesn’t have, I don’t have to agree
3:11:42 with you, but it’s like, you’re, I don’t like, I’ve been talking my ass off.
3:11:43 I understand that.
3:11:45 Like we could, we could go all night.
3:11:45 Right.
3:11:49 And if you share with me your heart, then it’s a shared brokenness.
3:11:58 You don’t get to where Andrew Huberman doesn’t get to this with a smooth, like shit went down.
3:12:00 I don’t know, but it’s on your face.
3:12:04 And it’s like a vibrational thing, right?
3:12:09 Like you don’t, you don’t fucking tattoo your whole body if everything was cool.
3:12:09 Right.
3:12:16 You don’t just become as smart as you are without like, if you want to destroy me intellectually,
3:12:19 you can, like, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t, I would be like, like, right.
3:12:26 So if I can sit in and be vulnerable and say like, Hey, I’m not perfect, but I’m not a piece
3:12:26 of shit.
3:12:27 I’m enough.
3:12:28 Like, I don’t need to do anything today.
3:12:35 And, and that’s for me, that was like, like these cultural moments of watching outcasts
3:12:40 be inducted into the hall of fame and Andre 3000 going, I’m not going to rap, but everyone
3:12:42 wants you to, that’s not where I’m at right now.
3:12:49 I’m just going to, I was like fucking amazing, you know, or, uh, Tarantino’s saying Paul Dano
3:12:51 is like the worst part of there will be blood.
3:12:54 I was like, wow, that’s the best thing that ever happened.
3:12:57 You had saw like everyone come out to say how brilliant he is.
3:13:00 I mean, what if Tarantino just said, Paul Dano is amazing.
3:13:08 Then that would just, so I just, I just find these, like, what is, um, without trying to
3:13:14 like psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life, just go the space, right?
3:13:19 Cause I, I’ve done the brain mapping and they’re like, the way it was explained to me, they dumbed
3:13:25 it down, they’re like, you’re not a psychopath because you do psych, you do psychopathic things,
3:13:27 but you actually care about people.
3:13:28 You’re not a psychopath.
3:13:35 And they say the, the space in your brain, there’s like a bridge, like here’s reality.
3:13:38 You know, he’s like, it’s like, should I jump off this cliff?
3:13:43 And like most people will executive function, like, oh, okay, maybe I’m going to get hurt.
3:13:46 And like that, that bridge is smaller for people like you.
3:13:50 They saw like a little, they go, so you don’t really think you just do.
3:13:53 And then that’s how you, you’re like, how did I end up in jail?
3:13:57 How did I fucking like, and, and, and that makes for a great story.
3:14:03 That makes for a great fucking life or like a storybook, crazy life that makes for, and,
3:14:08 and that’s a story that’s just told, oh, like you need to be a fucking psychotic, insane,
3:14:11 crazy person to be the greatest artist, right?
3:14:16 If you’re just like a, you know, boring person living at home with like air conditioning and
3:14:21 wifi and your warm cup of Earl Grey and you could do good art.
3:14:23 You could even do great art, but you won’t ever be the best.
3:14:25 Cause you’re not, you’re not facing your shadow.
3:14:26 You’re not looking at yourself.
3:14:28 You’re just, that’s just technique.
3:14:29 That’s just craft.
3:14:30 That’s just skill.
3:14:32 Like I’m ripping my fucking heart out and showing it to you.
3:14:34 I’m like, what do you think?
3:14:35 I’m not saying, what do you think?
3:14:37 I’m like, fucking, what do you, you know?
3:14:41 No, I, I feel it that, I mean, I feel it.
3:14:41 Okay.
3:14:44 You know, I mean, I, I, um, sorry.
3:14:46 There’s like spit all over the table.
3:14:47 Please don’t apologize.
3:14:48 Don’t apologize.
3:14:49 I’m slobbering.
3:14:50 No, please don’t.
3:14:51 I’m slobbering right into your microphone.
3:14:52 No apology.
3:14:55 You guys almost got me there.
3:14:57 No apology.
3:14:59 I feel it.
3:15:04 I mean, I, I, um, I feel it and, and everybody feels it.
3:15:11 And, um, if they don’t, they should take a look inside.
3:15:16 Like we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, I mean, it’s gonna sound like I’m name dropping
3:15:22 now, but I’m very, I feel very blessed to have Rick Rubin as my close friend.
3:15:22 Right.
3:15:24 Not because he’s Rick Rubin who produced all this music.
3:15:25 That’s super cool too.
3:15:31 But because he has antennae and he can feel shit and he can feel it, but he doesn’t get
3:15:32 absorbed in it.
3:15:33 It’s very interesting.
3:15:35 I don’t have that.
3:15:36 Yeah.
3:15:37 I feel stuff in it.
3:15:48 It like the, the, it just, and, um, I, I am certain people feel your heart in what you
3:15:53 do the self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about.
3:15:53 I can relate.
3:15:59 Well, I, I, I talked to Rob a little bit because he’s like a PR dude before.
3:16:00 Was a PR.
3:16:01 He’s like a producer.
3:16:02 I mean, he’s out of it.
3:16:02 Yeah.
3:16:05 That smile hides a lot of pain right there.
3:16:06 Look at that smile.
3:16:12 But, uh, yeah, I, yeah, it’s hard.
3:16:17 It like, you know, they say these, all these like dumb quotes, like no is a complete sentence
3:16:20 and it is right.
3:16:21 I go no.
3:16:25 And then I have to make up some fake like, oh, but like I got, uh, you know, I, I, my car
3:16:28 did get a flat tire, but that was a, that used to be a thing I would make up.
3:16:32 And then people would be like, let me see the metadata, metadata on your phone and make
3:16:36 sure that it’s not a screenshot from like two years, you know, like, um, so I would
3:16:45 lie and, and make up excuses, but the, the ability to, it goes against how I was raised.
3:16:55 It goes against my culture to just say no to my parents, no to jobs, no to think like leaving
3:17:01 money on the table saying so that I could put myself first for the first time and, and nurture
3:17:06 my own heart and take care of myself is like, it just sounded like it.
3:17:08 like, that’s, I had already written my story.
3:17:14 I’m like, you know, and then when you have heroes like Bourdain, like, I think a lot of
3:17:16 people also killed themselves after Bourdain did that.
3:17:21 Cause they’re like, if the most interesting man on the planet, the guy that’s a role model,
3:17:26 a guy I look up to, like, he’s not, he can’t fucking figure it out.
3:17:27 Then fuck what’s there.
3:17:30 And, and then almost validates it.
3:17:31 Like it’s, so you can do it too.
3:17:39 Like anyone, like, uh, so I, it was just, it’s just, I had it written out.
3:17:45 Like everyone I look to look up to, and it’s so fucking boring and cliche.
3:17:47 When I think about it, it makes me so angry.
3:17:50 It’s like, you know, live fast, die young.
3:17:52 And then just have people say nice shit about you.
3:17:58 And it’s like, or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships.
3:18:00 Like I, you, you call me and you go, you’re probably busy.
3:18:01 I’m like, I’m not that busy, dude.
3:18:03 I’m not a busy person.
3:18:05 I make a lot of space for myself now.
3:18:10 I don’t like, I, I, and I deserve it.
3:18:13 Like I, I, I owe that to myself.
3:18:15 Yeah.
3:18:17 I was about to say you’ve earned it, but you never needed to earn it.
3:18:18 You know?
3:18:19 Yeah.
3:18:21 I’m glad to hear it because, um.
3:18:22 Will you commit to taking a year off?
3:18:25 I could use some time off.
3:18:26 All right.
3:18:29 So that sounds like I’ll start the negotiations at a year.
3:18:35 And then if I can get you anywhere close to that, because people will be like, oh shit,
3:18:37 you know, like the American vacation is like a week or two weeks.
3:18:37 Right.
3:18:38 That’s nothing.
3:18:40 That’s like barely enough time to.
3:18:40 Yeah.
3:18:41 I have all these war stories.
3:18:43 I don’t want to make this about me, but I have all these war stories.
3:18:48 Like, you know, my girlfriend at the time, she’ll validate these as, you know, being, you
3:18:54 know, diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when, and, you know, I mean, if I, I’ve
3:18:58 had so many wonderful opportunities, but I’ve been going pretty hard into the paint since
3:19:01 I was 19, like that means nonstop.
3:19:05 That means like 50 to a hundred hour weeks since then.
3:19:07 Like what’s the longest vacation you’ve ever taken in your life?
3:19:08 Four days.
3:19:13 I mean, this isn’t me deflecting.
3:19:19 It’s just like, I, I just met you and like, I’m, I’m so happy that like, I was like, if
3:19:25 I can, if he gives me the space to speak what you did and he can feel what I, like what I
3:19:30 was trying to say and like, to me, like, that’s all I want is connection, right?
3:19:34 Like that’s, I want to be seen now before I was hiding and wearing masks.
3:19:40 But in that I felt you and I go, I didn’t know what you were going to say, but I was
3:19:45 like, it’s going to be less than a week because you don’t get, cause I know you don’t get to
3:19:46 where nobody does.
3:19:47 Everyone pays the price.
3:19:52 You don’t get to where you are right now by taking time off.
3:19:53 You just don’t.
3:19:56 But like you just said to me, I’ll say it back to you.
3:19:57 You deserve it.
3:20:05 And I, and to speak to the workaholic part of you, and I say this to people that are
3:20:12 like you and me, you will have more ideas, more inspiration, more like you can’t think
3:20:14 now cause you’re thinking about how’s Rob going to get paid?
3:20:17 How’s the, cause you take care of a lot of people, right?
3:20:20 But in that time I could come, I could get rid of all this black.
3:20:22 I could make, add some color here.
3:20:24 I could get you some white t-shirts.
3:20:28 You could spend time with your family, just the shit that you’re running from, you know?
3:20:32 And I feel like, okay, a year is unrealistic.
3:20:38 You’re like, I’m running out, you know, but it’s, it will like people, Oh, go do plant medicine.
3:20:44 I was like, just taking a year off and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning
3:20:49 the workaholism of just, I got to do something to have value.
3:20:58 And it’s just, um, and I feel like it will, when you come back, you’ll be like, like a
3:21:02 thousand, you know, like, and sometimes in our culture we get knocked down, not by our
3:21:02 choice.
3:21:05 And then, but I’m like, this would be by your choice.
3:21:09 You know, I, I taking care of Andy today.
3:21:11 Love you, Rob.
3:21:15 Love you, all you guys out there, but you know, you know what?
3:21:17 I’ll run your podcast while you’re gone.
3:21:19 That would be, I’ll do all the science.
3:21:24 I’ll, you could feed me some big words to use, but, um, and I’ll go paint.
3:21:25 Oh my God.
3:21:27 I’m going to, yeah.
3:21:29 I’m, I feel more comfortable with you now.
3:21:32 It’s like, like, I think I would lie to you.
3:21:34 Like whatever, whatever you showed me, I’d be like, Oh, that’s cool.
3:21:41 But like, I think it’s cool that anyone who’s an egghead who spends time up here, I think
3:21:45 every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting.
3:21:47 Cause it’s just, it’s the opposite of that, right?
3:21:50 You’re using the other side of your brain, but it sounds like the way you’re painting is
3:21:52 very in your head.
3:21:55 And I would just rip you out of that.
3:22:01 And I, it would be very uncomfortable, but then you could see the kind of like life, right?
3:22:08 You just see, throw shit at the wall and see what sticks and, and, and through that, it’s
3:22:10 about control, right?
3:22:22 I had, I had to, you know, and part of being in 12th step in recovery is like, and, you know,
3:22:27 and, and the wisdom to know the difference, you know, the thing, the serenity prayer is I
3:22:33 had to like, you can’t control mother nature, you can’t control a fire, you can’t control
3:22:36 what other people are going to think about you or say about you.
3:22:43 You just can’t, you could try to, let me write a paper and like, so that, and, and, and yeah,
3:22:49 you could do that for a little bit, but it’s tiring and it’s exhausting to try to get all these
3:23:01 people to believe what, you know, like, and, and, and so I, yeah, I just, it, it, it, it,
3:23:08 it goes, it’s anti, it goes against to, to the word winning and the win surrender, right?
3:23:11 Like the, I win every day cause I surrender constantly now.
3:23:15 And part of that, I got to still fight cause it’s like, you sound like a loser.
3:23:16 Why are you giving up, right?
3:23:20 It’s going to fucking shut the fuck up, pick yourself up by your, you know, bootstraps
3:23:24 and get back in, you know, like that’s how you become the best.
3:23:26 Like all the other artists, they’re like dealing with it.
3:23:28 Like you don’t have kids, you don’t get married.
3:23:31 You fucking paint, you go to the art store, you buy all the paint up,
3:23:33 you fucking keep painting, you steal all the paint.
3:23:35 It’s like, just keep painting, never stop.
3:23:41 And it’s all going to be worth it because one day you’re going to die and then legacy.
3:23:44 But now we see legacy is nothing, right?
3:23:51 I get, I get in an Uber, get in the car, fucking smells like teen spirit, right?
3:23:53 One of the greatest anthems ever.
3:23:56 Guy in the car, 27 years old.
3:23:56 What’s this?
3:23:58 Well, I’ll tell you.
3:23:59 You don’t, you don’t know fucking Nirvana.
3:24:00 Okay.
3:24:01 You have, you seen Goodfellas?
3:24:02 Like whatever, whatever.
3:24:05 Whoever who’s the godfather, like go down the list.
3:24:05 The greatest.
3:24:06 Nobody cares.
3:24:07 Right.
3:24:07 It’s over.
3:24:08 The greatest science.
3:24:09 So it’s just this.
3:24:11 It’s just this.
3:24:12 This is all you have.
3:24:14 So you’ve done enough.
3:24:16 People fucking love you.
3:24:18 You’ve helped so many people.
3:24:22 And I want you to take one year off.
3:24:24 And I don’t care if people are like, fuck that guy.
3:24:25 That guy helps me every day.
3:24:26 I want to hear his soothing voice every night.
3:24:28 But I’m like, AI, bro, just use AI.
3:24:29 No, I’m kidding.
3:24:36 I’m just saying, I would love whatever you’ve been running from, whatever you’ve been doing
3:24:41 to, like you help a lot of people, but do you help yourself on that level?
3:24:45 And it’s like, yeah, starting painting, that’s taking care of you.
3:24:53 Like it’s not complete all or nothing, but someone like you and other people like you are not going
3:24:55 to outsmart the feeling, right?
3:25:00 You’re not going to outrun the pain and it’s like, I don’t know what your father was like.
3:25:03 I don’t know what your mom was like, but they’re proud of you.
3:25:05 Like you don’t need to do more.
3:25:06 Like they’re proud of you.
3:25:12 And like if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them.
3:25:17 You just got to fucking, Andrew, I’m really disappointed in you.
3:25:18 Then you know you’re doing something right.
3:25:21 You know, I’m sorry for talking over you.
3:25:23 No, I was interrupted.
3:25:26 What are you, what, like your face says a lot.
3:25:28 So I just want to know what you’re, try to.
3:25:32 Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but it’s not, I let, let’s let
3:25:32 it pass.
3:25:34 Cause it, yes.
3:25:37 And yes, the legacy thing, it, it, it’s nothing.
3:25:38 It’s nothing.
3:25:45 Um, like I’ve done, I feel like I’ve done so much in acting, like I’ve done all these things
3:25:47 and people are like, who’s that Chinese kid?
3:25:48 I’m like, it doesn’t matter.
3:25:50 Well, they don’t say, it doesn’t matter.
3:25:53 Like you do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind.
3:25:58 And I go, you just have this, you just have like right now today.
3:25:59 And that’s it.
3:26:03 And like, we’re going to, we did this today and then, and then it’s off to the universe.
3:26:06 I can’t control what people are going to think about me.
3:26:12 And it’s like, I came here today with my intention of meeting you, telling you how you make me
3:26:15 feel and how, like how much I appreciate you.
3:26:16 And I did that.
3:26:17 So that’s it.
3:26:19 And that, like, I have no ill will.
3:26:23 I’m not trying to like, yeah, I probably talk shit about a lot of people right now, but
3:26:24 it’s like, fine.
3:26:24 Okay.
3:26:26 That’s, that’s my.
3:26:32 And I, I should probably just let all that stuff go, but to tell someone who’s used to
3:26:37 winning, who’s fought like tooth and nail for everything they had to fight and like prove
3:26:41 people wrong over and over again to tell someone like that, Hey, just surrender.
3:26:42 It’s like, fuck you, dude.
3:26:44 You don’t like, you don’t tell me that.
3:26:49 Like, um, so yeah, that journey from head to heart is, it’s a big one.
3:26:53 And that’s why the, like, you can’t say that to everyone, right?
3:26:56 Because they’re like, I got a fucking, but I’m like, I, I don’t know your financial
3:26:58 situation, but I’m like, I think you could take a year off.
3:27:02 Like, um, uh, it’s not for, but, but that’s the other thing, right?
3:27:05 Like, it must be nice day from your perspective.
3:27:07 And I go, I was homeless.
3:27:13 Like I’ve lived the worst, like, like people for like, I know I sound defensive, but like
3:27:15 I’ve, I wasn’t born rich.
3:27:17 Like I worked for this.
3:27:20 So it’s like, must sound nice from a rich guy’s perspective.
3:27:27 And I go, if, if I think back to my happiest moments or even just my most creative moments,
3:27:28 it was always less.
3:27:30 It was never more.
3:27:30 Right.
3:27:36 So when I lived in a tiny house, that means less doors to open, less walls to, we’re living
3:27:41 together in a, you know, and it’s fucking cold, but at least we got body, you know, I’m making
3:27:45 it sound like, uh, you know, like we’re, we were okay, but I’m like, we didn’t have that
3:27:45 much.
3:27:47 And it was, it was great because we had each other.
3:27:52 And, and I think back and I go, okay, creative output.
3:27:53 Let’s go to work.
3:27:54 You know, let’s go back into my head.
3:28:02 I go, oh, every time I had like a Renaissance level creative explosion, there was no wifi and
3:28:03 there was no heater.
3:28:04 It was always freezing.
3:28:05 It was cold.
3:28:07 Like you’re talking about deprivation.
3:28:07 Yeah.
3:28:15 Like, and then now, like, it’s just, it would be with my, uh, attention, it would be impossible
3:28:21 for me to get anything done if I didn’t go out of my way to block all my electronic devices.
3:28:22 I couldn’t, I couldn’t do it.
3:28:24 My social media is on a separate phone.
3:28:28 It goes into a lockbox that can’t be coded out to get work done.
3:28:33 I mean, what I hear, well, first of all, I want to be clear that, um, I don’t need an
3:28:33 answer from you.
3:28:36 I’m just throwing the, the challenge of the gauntlet down.
3:28:42 I would love for you to take one year off as someone who I just met, who I care about.
3:28:47 And I like, um, we’re humans, right?
3:28:48 Can’t just run forever.
3:28:50 Like there needs to be a recharge or refresh.
3:28:54 Like there’s just things that I, that you get offered.
3:28:56 I guess you’re like, I’m never going to do that.
3:28:59 I’m not saying, why don’t you, why don’t you go to this retreat and just work on this part
3:29:04 of your heart or this part of your, uh, journey for a month?
3:29:06 And you’re like, I’m not going to fucking do that.
3:29:07 And it’s like, but why not?
3:29:07 You deserve it.
3:29:09 And it’s going to be hard.
3:29:10 It’s not like a fun vacation.
3:29:20 And like, for me, the way I think about it is part of, part of like what, cause I take
3:29:21 podcasting.
3:29:27 So like I’m, it does, I try to manicure how I look and sound.
3:29:30 And I do a lot of people and I try to make it look like I didn’t, right?
3:29:36 Like before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern, I like, I, I call up people and I fucking
3:29:38 do like, I talk for 12, I go, is this work?
3:29:42 Is it like, and then I come on and I try it and that’s fake.
3:29:45 And it’s been years since I did a podcast.
3:29:49 I was like, I, I, I’m getting like a very genuine feeling from you.
3:29:50 And so I don’t want to do that today.
3:29:52 And I was fucking, that’s why I was puking.
3:29:52 I was scared.
3:29:58 I was like, I’m just going to come in and I might say something that like fucks me up
3:30:03 cause it has so many times, but I’m just going to be the truest version of, I guess
3:30:06 I could, that was scary to me.
3:30:07 That was like really being naked.
3:30:12 Like I, I like to be prepared and I, like last night it was late.
3:30:15 I couldn’t sleep and I was like, oh fuck, I can’t believe.
3:30:22 Cause it’s like, I live a quiet, like I don’t, and I was like, oh man, like, it was
3:30:25 like, let me like, like, not like you’re the enemy.
3:30:27 I was like, oh, I’m going into enemy territory.
3:30:28 What if he has like, I got you a question.
3:30:33 Like I have to have a, uh, uh, you know, like it was, it was like, I was at vice again,
3:30:35 you know, vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks.
3:30:37 And I was like, this is exhausting.
3:30:44 And I was like, but can you just go and just, you know, and I, and I realized it took me like
3:30:50 two hours to answer like one question, but that’s, I also accept that about myself, you know?
3:30:57 Um, but yeah, I started like, I started, I, Andrew, Hugh, and then it was like, your, it
3:30:58 finishes your name and all.
3:31:00 And I was like, I’m not going to do this.
3:31:01 I don’t want to do this.
3:31:03 I don’t want to just fucking read about you all night.
3:31:05 And then like have come in, like prepared.
3:31:06 Great.
3:31:07 Great.
3:31:11 I was like, I just, I’m so glad, I’m so glad you abandoned that.
3:31:11 I did.
3:31:12 I did.
3:31:13 I said, just fucking told.
3:31:20 Man, I’m so grateful you showed up here that in that frame, that no frame frame.
3:31:21 Yeah.
3:31:27 Um, I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you, you’re going to
3:31:29 get that thing, but I’m just going to tell you it.
3:31:34 I’ll tell you, um, there are a couple of reasons you’re here.
3:31:35 Some of them I touched on earlier.
3:31:37 You’re an amazing artist.
3:31:39 You’re an amazing person.
3:31:47 And, but the main reason you’re here is because a long time ago I saw you at a meeting and
3:31:53 I learned from you there and I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend.
3:31:54 Oh, wow.
3:31:56 And I know I can learn a lot from him.
3:31:57 Oh my God.
3:32:01 Uh, so without getting into any details about that.
3:32:02 I mean, you can, I don’t care.
3:32:04 Well, maybe another time.
3:32:08 Um, I told you, you know, you’ve helped me, you helped me a ton.
3:32:14 I also, um, like I have this model in my head.
3:32:18 Maybe this is the, the scientist in me where, but I feel like you’ve made yourself like the
3:32:26 anvil, the hammer and the metal, like, like you, and it’s like this cycle of the, the opportunity
3:32:28 to do something, to feel something.
3:32:31 And then, you know, I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right.
3:32:35 He said, you know, people get addicted to shame, but to me it’s the whole cycle.
3:32:35 Right.
3:32:43 But the thing that I, I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes
3:32:44 out of your mouth.
3:32:49 They don’t like, yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also.
3:32:55 And yes, you have a gift for storytelling, just like you have a gift for art, but it’s,
3:32:57 you know, people learn.
3:33:01 And, you know, we touched on Bourdain who I didn’t know.
3:33:03 I know you and Joe were both close to him.
3:33:05 I know a couple other people were close to him.
3:33:09 And, you know, I’m not here on a public service campaign.
3:33:10 That’s not how I do this podcast.
3:33:12 I’m only here with you right now.
3:33:16 But, you know, there are a lot of people offing themselves.
3:33:17 A close friend do that recently.
3:33:21 A very famous scientist that appeared to have everything.
3:33:21 This kind of thing.
3:33:22 And it’s happening more and more.
3:33:27 And I think that when people hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear.
3:33:38 They feel you and they hear the extent to which, yeah, there are a lot of hard stuff and great
3:33:43 stuff happen, but you’re still here and you’re still going.
3:33:45 And that example is really, really important.
3:33:48 Well, I don’t want to, I don’t want to be a survivor.
3:33:52 You know, it’s like I’m a survivor because I survived all this stuff, but so did everybody.
3:33:53 And I’m not trying to like.
3:33:55 But you’re still going.
3:33:55 But I don’t want to survive.
3:33:56 I want to thrive.
3:33:57 Right.
3:34:02 That’s why I think of like Korean Jesus or Pee Wee Herman.
3:34:06 And I go, it was like, I try to keep things light and entertaining.
3:34:07 It was a lot.
3:34:08 It was really painful.
3:34:09 Right.
3:34:14 If, if, if you get it, it wasn’t easy and it wasn’t easy for everyone.
3:34:19 But so then you go, well, will you work on yourself?
3:34:20 Will you do this work?
3:34:20 Will you go to a meeting?
3:34:23 And it’s like, are we having fun yet?
3:34:24 Right.
3:34:31 It’s like, it’s a lot of fucking pain and work to just be, you know?
3:34:36 And the question is like, I want to put, it’s like, are we having fun yet?
3:34:38 Like, isn’t, aren’t we supposed to have fun?
3:34:42 Like, you know, my son wakes up every morning laughing.
3:34:43 I go, what the fuck is happening up there?
3:34:47 What is like, I can’t remember the last time I woke up smiling.
3:34:52 It’s like, and I’m like, oh, if we can remember.
3:34:57 Like, I, like, it was dumb doing the secret word, but I, I loved it.
3:34:59 Like, are you guys scared the shit?
3:35:06 Like, I, I, you know, and it’s people, you know, trigger warning.
3:35:11 They do like, there’s a lot of people killing themselves, like on an epidemic, men.
3:35:14 Like, I don’t know that many women, but a lot of men.
3:35:15 It’s mostly men.
3:35:22 And so a powerful tool, because, because I’ve done so much reckless, I am, I’m, it’s, I’m
3:35:24 a miracle that I’m here right now.
3:35:26 And I’m not saying that to be like, oh, I just.
3:35:27 No, I think it is a miracle.
3:35:29 I could have been dead a lot of times.
3:35:30 No, I think God’s been looking out for you.
3:35:35 So I say to myself without aggrandizing myself or being on like some guru, messiah type shit.
3:35:38 It’s like, so I made, I made, I made it through that.
3:35:43 I am having fun despite how much I cry and stuff.
3:35:48 But even that, like, I, I wouldn’t, I would be called a pussy and all that if I did that.
3:35:52 And I go, I just, I’m allowing myself to feel everything.
3:36:01 And, and, and so I, I, I learned this tool called just play the tape out.
3:36:02 Right.
3:36:06 So you go, if you’re an idiot, you’re an idiot.
3:36:10 But if you’re, have any level of intelligence, you go, well, how do you think this ends for
3:36:11 you?
3:36:13 How do you think this drug problem ends for you?
3:36:14 How do you think cheating on your wife ends for you?
3:36:18 How do you think nonstop, like it doesn’t end well, right?
3:36:19 That’s one of my favorite things to tell my friend.
3:36:20 That’s okay right now.
3:36:20 It’s mad.
3:36:25 I go, but addiction and, and it just, it just escalates.
3:36:27 It doesn’t stay.
3:36:32 You don’t just kind of get like, and then someone like me, it escalates.
3:36:32 It’s very quickly.
3:36:35 So it’s dangerous.
3:36:38 And, and, and, and addiction loves novelty, right?
3:36:46 So if, if someone’s sucking dick for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he never,
3:36:49 he wasn’t a little boy when they go, I hope I do that one day.
3:36:50 That happened.
3:36:51 It started with weed.
3:36:55 Then it went to Coke and it just escalated, right?
3:37:01 He wasn’t like, I want to do degrading acts that I don’t want to do for drugs, but it escalated.
3:37:02 And that’s on the addict side.
3:37:08 But I just found myself having a lot of, I swear, like weird broken promise.
3:37:10 I swear I’ll never do that.
3:37:14 But then I’m like, here I am in this weird place doing weird shit that it’s going against my value system.
3:37:15 Here I am.
3:37:17 Oh, I’m chasing the shame again.
3:37:23 So I know this is kind of hypocritical because I’m, I’m applying logic again.
3:37:27 But if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, Hey, you’re not an idiot.
3:37:28 Play the tape out.
3:37:30 Your, your behavior.
3:37:35 That’s like chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it’s on the path.
3:37:36 And you’re like, yeah, I’ll be all right.
3:37:38 It’s like, just play it out.
3:37:40 Like, how do you think this ends for you?
3:37:41 Right.
3:37:43 I go, I need to go back to podcasting.
3:37:44 Right.
3:37:48 And I, and then I go on these podcasts and I go, are we having fun yet?
3:37:51 Or is it like, you seem like you’ve got the weight of the world on your shoulders.
3:37:53 You seem miserable.
3:38:00 You seem like you can find, like, I’m not, it’s just like in general, I don’t find podcasters, like happy people.
3:38:08 It’s just, it’s just like a, it’s just like, I go, so when are, like, when, like, you know, and, oh, look, cut.
3:38:08 Let’s go.
3:38:10 And it’s like, oh, shit, sponsors.
3:38:14 It’s like, I got to fucking, the numbers are going down this.
3:38:16 And I’m like, can we have fun?
3:38:22 Like, is it only about making money and just, it’s enough.
3:38:34 Like, if, and it’s, it’s, it’s because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up.
3:38:38 It’s not hundreds, it’s thousands of messages telling you you’re not enough.
3:38:38 Right.
3:38:40 And so I do the brain mapping.
3:38:44 I do it and it’s like, wow, Dave, you’re really hard on yourself.
3:38:45 You say so much.
3:38:54 Like, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s like, if someone said that to my friend, I would, I would do something.
3:38:58 So it’s like a lot of punishing, like, self-talk.
3:39:02 And then it feels gay to say, I’m enough.
3:39:05 I’m, you know, it’s like, that’s, that again.
3:39:07 Why, why do you have to say it like that?
3:39:09 It’s like, oh, I’m worthy.
3:39:10 I am a good person.
3:39:11 I am a good father.
3:39:11 I am a good friend.
3:39:12 I am a good brother.
3:39:21 You know, it’s like, it sounds like just self-help, but I’m, I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world.
3:39:24 Until, so why can’t I brainwash myself into thinking I’m a good person?
3:39:29 So then I, I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff.
3:39:30 Not like, that’s how I feel.
3:39:31 And it’s like, that’s weird.
3:39:34 I don’t want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him.
3:39:35 But it, it does.
3:39:37 I mean, even for black, it does.
3:39:44 So, so the tools is like, you know, writing with deodorant, like a thick, white, chunky deodorant.
3:39:45 Just so I see it.
3:39:46 So it’s in my psyche.
3:39:50 Cause it’s every day it’s billboards of good looking people.
3:39:51 And I don’t look like that.
3:39:54 And so the messaging is all fucked up.
3:40:00 And unless I’m just going to say, fuck all internet and just move to the African wilderness, which I might do.
3:40:00 Yeah.
3:40:01 Just right on the wall.
3:40:02 I am worthy.
3:40:03 I’m enough.
3:40:08 And I see it every morning when I wash my face and it’s just like, I’m starting to brainwash myself.
3:40:12 It’s like, that’s one tool is like telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them.
3:40:13 Not till they’re dead.
3:40:16 Not till it’s like they’re in their bottom.
3:40:18 And I’m like, Hey, and it’s like, I tell them every day.
3:40:20 Cause that’s, that’s, that’s all we have.
3:40:28 And then I say that about myself and then I can catch myself like that bridge that was like, basically like a suicide bridge.
3:40:31 It’s like reckless behavior, reckless, irresponsible behavior, immature behavior.
3:40:40 But all of this shit is hard because I’m coming at it with generations of a story that says, you need to stay sick.
3:40:43 Like when you hear Kanye say, bipolar is my superpower.
3:40:45 Like there’s a part of me that’s like, of course.
3:40:47 And I, I like my artists fucked up.
3:40:50 The more fucked up you are, that’s true genius.
3:41:04 That’s, you know, and I go, you know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who’s as creative as you is so, you’re so like boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things.
3:41:08 It’s like, like, is there anyone who lives a moderate life?
3:41:12 Just a regular, does everything doesn’t have to be jumping on a train.
3:41:14 And like that is doing great art.
3:41:15 And I go, show me an example.
3:41:17 There’s, and I go, but couldn’t you be the first?
3:41:19 Well, there’s ego and narcissism.
3:41:21 And it’s just like, just, and then, okay, fine.
3:41:22 Let’s just go.
3:41:24 Let’s go with, let’s play that tape out.
3:41:30 Let’s just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person, you’re never going to have the best podcast or the best art.
3:41:33 You’re just going to be kind of like right there, 70%.
3:41:35 What’s wrong with that?
3:41:39 You know, but that’s not, that’s going against everything.
3:41:40 Right.
3:41:51 So I have to, it’s hard, you know, and, and especially something with art where it’s in, there’s just people that are like, you’re literally doing the worst art I’ve ever seen in my life.
3:41:54 You know, I wish, you know, it’s like, oh, their first album was good type shit, you know?
3:42:00 And there’s part of me that’s like, yeah, the earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over.
3:42:02 And the stuff now is way more looser.
3:42:04 And, but I love it now.
3:42:07 Like, I like, I like myself how I feel.
3:42:17 And it’s, it’s very rare that you have, it’s, you know, the whole lonely at the top that you have these champions, people that are like the best at what they do.
3:42:26 The top 1% of the world champion of this, this, that you meet them and they’re just like a content, satisfied, happy, they’re just miserable.
3:42:29 And you’re like, what was the point?
3:42:30 Why?
3:42:41 And, and it’s either you, you have the courage through yourself and friends to, to make that change.
3:42:44 Like, I’ll, I’ll, if you take a year off, like, we’re going to hang out a lot.
3:42:46 Like, we’re going to paint.
3:42:47 That’s an awesome incentive.
3:42:48 Like, we’re going to do all that.
3:42:51 But it’s like, like, it’s always like, you got to do it alone.
3:42:52 That was my message.
3:42:54 Like, shut, like, shut the fuck up.
3:42:55 Don’t complain.
3:42:57 Like, very Asian, very Korean.
3:42:59 Like, don’t say anything.
3:43:01 Like, someone fucking treats you like shit.
3:43:05 Just keep your head down and just, it’s all revenge is a dish best served cold.
3:43:11 You know, just fucking shut, don’t ever let them know, see what you’re coming, see how you feel.
3:43:14 And just, your, your, your revenge is success.
3:43:20 Like, just, like, that guy treated you shit at work, then just become the guy that owns that business and then fire him.
3:43:26 You know, like, oh, I’m so fucking glad that guy Chip got fired.
3:43:27 That felt so good.
3:43:28 Chip sounds like an asshole.
3:43:29 He was such an asshole.
3:43:35 But I, so you just, I, I have, and those things, all these tools are like, okay, cool.
3:43:36 They’re all simple.
3:43:39 Okay, wake up every day and say I’m a good person.
3:43:40 Yeah, it’s simple, but it’s hard.
3:43:41 It’s not easy.
3:43:43 You have to, like, work at it.
3:43:44 And feel it.
3:43:46 Yeah, like, oh, get up every day and do 100 push-ups.
3:43:48 I could do that, but I don’t.
3:43:49 But you could.
3:43:53 It’s like, but you care about your physical health.
3:43:55 But why wouldn’t you do that for your mental health?
3:43:57 What, your spiritual health?
3:43:58 You know, oh, I’m not religious.
3:44:02 It’s like, spirituality is, it’s the ocean.
3:44:02 It’s the universe.
3:44:05 It’s, it’s a power greater than you, right?
3:44:10 So, so I, yeah, that, that.
3:44:20 Playing the tape out is a very valuable, powerful, like, I, I need to take action in this way.
3:44:26 And sometimes the action is to do less, and it’s to do nothing, where everything growing up was do more.
3:44:33 And I was going to say, am I making any sense?
3:44:41 But through your face, I could see that I feel like, I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment, which is very special to me.
3:44:42 So thank you.
3:44:42 Thank you.
3:44:46 You are absolutely heard and you’re absolutely understood.
3:44:48 And I’m very grateful to you.
3:44:52 And I know everyone listening is too.
3:45:02 The permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is, that’s oddly the hardest thing.
3:45:06 But the encouragement is, is heard.
3:45:07 It lands.
3:45:12 I think also, because I talk so much about shame and I’ll, and I’ll, I’ll end it with this.
3:45:19 It feels like a, is a hope and faith is also a very powerful drug.
3:45:25 And sometimes, like, like I said, with my mom or me believing in Santa, like, there’s no logic in that.
3:45:43 But, you know, entire wars and nations are fought over faith and, you know, and I, I feel like because I’m sensitive and I’m empathetic to everybody that I meet, that it feels like a really hopeless time.
3:45:47 And I feel like that’s why there’s a lot of self-harm and depression.
3:45:51 And, um, so it’s like weird.
3:46:01 It’s like, how would you be hopeful in a city like LA where there’s like 70,000 homeless people, like natural disasters, drug epidemics, you know, just all this shit.
3:46:12 And it’s like, then to, to, you know, to, to, to brainwash yourself, like if, because it’s, that’s, that’s what the connection is.
3:46:20 Like, if I don’t believe it to find, to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, hey, I’m having, it was like the hardest thing to do.
3:46:21 It was like, I need help right now.
3:46:31 I can’t, it’s like weird to admit to someone that I can’t do like, I can’t, I can’t even come up with one nice thing to say about myself.
3:46:34 Can I, can you say something nice about me?
3:46:37 Well, that sounds very egotistic, but I need that right now.
3:46:39 I really don’t like myself right now.
3:46:45 And to have someone say something nice and you go, okay, maybe tomorrow I’ll be able to say something nice about myself.
3:46:52 And then you’re building something called hope and faith.
3:47:00 And so I don’t know, I’m, I told a long Pee Wee Herman story, but at the end of that, I was like, what was that?
3:47:02 It’s like, okay, that’s resilience.
3:47:03 That’s taking chance.
3:47:04 That’s believing in yourself.
3:47:09 But I never gave up hope, you know, it’s like.
3:47:21 And it’s just, and that’s delusional in a way, but that’s like, how?
3:47:24 Like if you take facts and numbers and it’s like, this is the end of the world.
3:47:29 This is like, man, I was going to kill like all this fucking doomsday post-apocalyptic.
3:47:32 It’s like, I don’t need that shit, dude.
3:47:33 I don’t watch horror movies.
3:47:35 I don’t surround myself with like, that’s fine.
3:47:37 Like that’s everyone do your own thing.
3:47:41 And like I said, you know, we were both like, we like punk, but we don’t like hardcore.
3:47:44 Like I used to love hardcore because it’s, I needed that.
3:47:50 I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like, oh,
3:47:53 that guy’s singing at a frequency that’s resonating with me.
3:47:54 It doesn’t now.
3:47:57 And I fucking hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy.
3:48:03 And now I listen to reggae, you know, I go reggae on the river or whatever, you know,
3:48:06 like, and I’m just like, you know, and I immediately judge.
3:48:08 I can’t believe you’re fucking listening to reggae.
3:48:13 Hey, this is like stoner music, but it’s the frequency is hitting me now.
3:48:21 So I can be appreciative of hardcore music, but yeah, I, I, if I look back and I go, what,
3:48:22 what was, what was that?
3:48:24 What the fuck was that?
3:48:30 It was just screaming for help, lost and hopeless.
3:48:38 And I just go, hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this, but not if you ask for help,
3:48:40 not if you reach out, not if you connect with other people.
3:48:44 And that is going to be impossible to do.
3:48:51 If you don’t, you need to, you know, now I sound like I’m going to fucking know it all,
3:48:54 but it’s like, you need to deprive yourself of electronics.
3:48:56 Like it has to happen.
3:48:59 Like you can’t have real emotion.
3:49:04 If you’re watching TV or your phone, like it’s the only way, like anytime it’s like a secret
3:49:09 language, anytime I’m out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a dumb phone,
3:49:12 whatever, a brick phone, they have whatever you call it.
3:49:13 I give a wink.
3:49:14 I go, yeah.
3:49:19 Cause I know I’m like this guy, he’s, he cares about himself because you can’t, oh, I got to
3:49:24 fucking, like, no, you don’t, you don’t need to know who’s being murdered on every country.
3:49:26 And what are you going to do about it?
3:49:26 Nothing.
3:49:39 So I believe, I have faith that we’re all here for a reason and, and, uh, and to anyone
3:49:43 listening, and I don’t, I don’t know when this is coming out and I didn’t know, I honestly
3:49:47 didn’t know I was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the
3:49:47 season.
3:49:50 Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas?
3:49:50 Okay.
3:49:52 Just try it on.
3:49:55 Just, just like, I know it’s stupid, but just believe in Santa.
3:50:00 Like all the, I know kids already do, but any grownups, bitter, jaded adults listening,
3:50:03 just, just try it on this, this year.
3:50:07 Just, and if you need, you know, he can teleport.
3:50:07 He’s a mutant.
3:50:11 He has special abilities and he knows if you’ve been naughty or nice.
3:50:14 So yeah, I don’t, I don’t know.
3:50:19 We could, I could like, this is the problem because where we’re at now is when I would
3:50:20 start.
3:50:25 Like I’m, this was like the pre, like when I used to do my podcast, DVD, I say we, this,
3:50:29 be like, Oh, it wasn’t a podcast because it wasn’t a conversation.
3:50:31 It was you talking the whole time.
3:50:34 And we’re three hours in and, and, and be like, okay, now let’s, now let’s start.
3:50:36 Let’s get ugly and real.
3:50:40 And be like, nobody likes to talk for nine hours, dude.
3:50:41 I’m like, I do.
3:50:48 So I’m going to, I feel like you’d be down if we wanted to go six more hours.
3:50:49 Easy.
3:50:50 And we could maybe do that one day.
3:50:51 We should.
3:50:54 But I feel like, I don’t know.
3:50:56 Am I, am I, you know what?
3:50:57 I’m surrendering.
3:51:02 I feel like, unless you have more shit to ask me, then I’m down.
3:51:09 So, man, I’ve, uh, in the, uh, language of, uh, meetings and other things, I, I think,
3:51:11 uh, for now, we’re complete.
3:51:12 Thank you so much, man.
3:51:13 Thank you.
3:51:14 Thank you.
3:51:18 That was so, I mean, I, I feel good.
3:51:20 I feel good too.
3:51:21 Very grateful.
3:51:21 Thank you.
3:51:22 Thank you.
3:51:26 Thank you for joining me for today’s discussion with David Cho.
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