Best Ways to Build Better Habits & Break Bad Ones | James Clear

s to th ring problems in our environment.
one wit g day of work.
re kind austed.
now, fr y.
oblem t face.
at prob
lve it g for a run for 30 minutes.
t solve playing video games for 30 minutes.
t solve smoking a cigarette.
to sol same core problem.
at, you you get to be 20 or 25 or 28,
lutions ou have to these recurring problems that you face
you inh or that you saw modeled by your parents or your friends
whateve ave interfaced with throughout your short life so far.
ize tha solutions may not be the best solution,
nsibili ry to figure out a different way to do it.
rman La st,
ience a nce-based tools for everyday life.
, and I ofessor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
of Medi
ames Cl
author ic Habits and one of the world’s foremost experts
k-solid that better your physical and mental health,
hips.
ow to b habit and how to break bad habits
as pos
today’s sation is a very realistic one,
void of acronyms such as
easurab ievable, relevant, and time-bound.
at disc and acronyms are useful,
today mes,
ples of make and break habits
ck with d that you can apply.
re time data related to habit formation
ing tha Clear.
to kno s a person and how he implemented
so eff y,
p of hi has shifted to include more,
family sibilities.
ngs tha ow we can and should do more of
should of.
t behav hange starts with a desire to change.
explain equires a system,
you and ou design in order for it to really stick.
ncredib h of knowledge, generosity, and clarity of communication,
n about formation is filled with useful tools
to impr r life.
bit, or s many habits that you’re hoping to form,
habits u want to break,
w year, any point,
n is ab y for you.
d like asize that this podcast
teachi research roles at Stanford.
t of my and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information
cience- tools to the general public.
t theme ‘s episode does include sponsors.
ussion mes Clear.
e.
uch for me.
here.
tually e person behind it.
n peopl to you or when they read your book
develo s, or presumably also to end bad habits,
heme?
st peop difficulty dropping bad habits,
?
types o s that people want to build?
st sort p back from everything you’ve heard and read
in int ns with your audience.
are so es.
initely that are very common and broad that, you know,
like e y.
Year’s tion, for example, is to do some form of exercise.
y a hug t of health and fitness habits that most people,
y inter n.
produc habits at work or creativity habits, writing, you know,
atever, like that.
big cat .
intere though, is to look at what are the themes that help habits
ts fail se habits to fail.
itely s terns there which are interesting.
working e other day and I was talking to my trainer and he said,
lass th ing and there were eight people signed up, but it was a pretty

rainy, gray, it was just kind of like cold and gross and only

thing hat to me is how little of an edge you need to like gain

ly all alking about there is are you cool with being uncomfortable
or like o ten minutes while you’re getting ready and getting in your
g and i d of gross.
gym, t out’s the same as it’s always been, right?
as it i e middle of the summer.
about t tle point of friction at the beginning.
f I cou a single biggest lesson that has come out from all the
magic a importance of starting.
-minute or sometimes even like that 30-second window of choosing
it eas art, that I would say is the single biggest theme of habits.
of the u can boil almost all problems that habits face into two

it easi et started, so overcoming procrastination, or it’s sticking

ice, bu ot consistent.
an to s th something?
st mean you get started each time you try to do it.
timatel t it all back to mastering the art of getting started.
you ca it to get started, whether it’s scaling a habit down,
ronment g up with a better strategy, looping other people in,
f thing an do.
an do t e more likely you are to succeed.
u know, omic Habits sold 25 million copies, I’d say that’s maybe
that I s that the people who make it easy to get started and
of gett rted tend to stick with it and succeed.
make it o get started, dream up a big, ambitious plan on their head,
too mu nce, they set themselves up to fail.
ing sta imagine trying to create, you know, a very thin edge of the
you kn that the on-ramping to something is very, very easy.
could b by a number of different approaches.
segment atever it is, the habit or task that you want to do.
o write rd or one sentence or one letter.
ch.
proach ng to find the times of day or the environments where
resent sed to being a big step.
o one s s all, but what are some of the ways to quote unquote

re’s so incredible and somewhat depressing about the human brain
omethin an know it so well that we can just think about it and
on it ch ourselves fail to do the thing that we’re trying to do.
redible f human nature.
you tea ow to overcome that flaw.
n, what sy ways to get started?
omic Ha an answer to that question.
maybe ll be the next two hours is us kind of unpacking this

h level are kind of four things that you want to do if you want
tick.
ur laws avior change, but you want to make your habit obvious.
king it or easy to see, easy to notice.
be visi that’s often the sensory perception that you use the most.

ke it a ve.
attract appealing a habit is, the more likely you are to perform

you wan ke it easy.
conven rictionless, this can be about scaling your habits down and
ng the of steps.
thing want to make it satisfying.
or enj a habit is, the more you have this like feeling of pleasure,
emotio iated with it, the more you’re going to want to repeat

ur step
ke it a ve, make it easy, make it satisfying.
to do those things.
not to be, but to empower, you know, like I don’t really feel
ay to b tter habits.
.
y all t s out on the table and say, here, here’s a full toolkit.
cide, d the screwdriver or do I use the wrench or do I use the hammer?
r this on?
on one se, for example, let’s take make it obvious.
ut prim r environment to make the action easy.
ne inte thing you can do, walk into most of the spaces where you
h day, fice, your living room, your kitchen, and look around
hat beh are obvious here?
easy he
designe courage?
nd that ncouraging the thing that maybe you don’t want to do,
t encou the good habit that you say is a priority.
l sorts ps you can take.
nt to m easier to go for a run, set your running shoes and your
the ni ore.
readers tually sleep in their running clothes and then just get up,
and get e door, right?
ake it ous and as frictionless as possible.
the goo or the healthy food, you know, place the nuts on the counter
ps or s g like that, right?
t is th us thing that’s present?
he woul his music lesson and practice guitar with his instructor

et a bu homework to do, these chords and scales and things to practice.
ome hom ut his guitar in the guitar case and stick it in the closet.
ck to, w, practice the next week and they’d be like,
y of th
little nd put it on the, uh, the guitar on the stand in the middle

t 30 ti ay.
re like ick it up and play it for five minutes.
like t dual progression of how can you make the things in your life
of more s to you.
e of ma to make starting easier.
ayer in r body functions, not just in the long-term, but in every moment

s the m el for our cells, especially our brain cells.
pacts o n function, mood, and energy levels.
ect our of tenacity and willpower.
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arp spi big crashes and others do not.
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in rea helps you build eating and other habits that support
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n, plea the episode description.
o me is tical and so overlooked.
nline a oint from a great writer, I won’t mention who they are,
s reall tant to have a very comfortable chair to write in because
urs is your body and this kind of thing.
ssfield r of The War of Art, sat in the exact chair you’re sitting in

, you w d of an uncomfortable chair.
f painf
arine a e a book called The War of Art After All.
towards ‘s approach.
oo comf , if a couch is too comfortable, it favors, you know, lounging and it favors thinking about things that maybe are fun to think about or, you know, but not really getting the work done.
o sit o u know, a rock or something like that.
writin ork was done on planes where I got stuck in the middle seat and was kind of pissed off about it.

t energ ing kind of pissed off.
to get one, right?
that.
se, los t getting work done.
I been st class and like stretched out and everything perfect, then sometimes that perfection lends itself to just kind of leaning into the creature comforts of that.
it’s a ental shift by you, right?
mal sit
is into ing I can use?
l for l
hing li a lot.
our wri utine?
ng habi
ike?
m being about it is I’ve had tons of different writing routines.
omic Ha my parents’ couch when I was visiting them for the holidays.
in the ger seat of a car while we were on a road trip.
at my ou know, but there’s no one place where it happened.
also r an important truth about habits, which is that there’s this kind of implicit assumption that we don’t really say, but a lot of people think when they think, what would it look like to be successful with this habit?
would it for the rest of my life is basically what they kind of assume.
r they ing it, then they kind of feel like that’s a failure in some way.
like th ll.
eason, w, and you have different seasons in your life.
lly int g question to ask is what season am I in right now?
hat as asons change, your habits often need to change as well.
r the f ree years that I wrote, I wrote JamesClear.com and I published a new article every Monday and Thursday.
2,000 w ces, took me like about 20 hours each on average.
s a 40- rk week.
pieces for three years.
built m nce and got the book deal that eventually became Atomic Habits.
ook dea
capacit o write those articles.
my stra
was goi writing the book.
three

st five I’ve been writing a newsletter once a week that takes me about two hours instead of 20.
erent f
e milli le read that newsletter every week.
alue ou .
t is if ok at my writing habit and you say, well, you wrote two articles a week for three years.
e fourt
t like, ll, I don’t do that anymore, so it’s a failure, that seems kind of silly to me.
been w it’s just been changing shape based on the season that I’ve been in.
th lots er habits, too.
s habit changed a lot over the last 20 years.
I was eavy like powerlifting or Olympic lifting style, and I would train four or five days a week.
ckets w was only lifting twice a week.

it shif nding on the season that you’re in.
le need e themselves more permission for their habits to adjust rather than to feel like, well, if I don’t stick to this,
g to my I feel like that flexibility is a big component in long-term success.
that me ughness is something that’s like, I’m going to make it happen no matter what the circumstances, right?
rind an sure that this is, you know, I’m going to persevere.
for th of thinking.
most o ime, mental toughness looks more like adaptability.
tabilit
ime, do ort version.
nergy, easy version.
up and up a zero for that day.
hing is always infinitely better than doing nothing.
hat you here is realizing that in a lot of ways, the bad days are more important than the good days.
ally th orkouts, the ones where I don’t really feel like doing much or I don’t have much time,
and I j like a couple sets of squats and then I’m done in 20 minutes.
more b I showed up and I didn’t put up a zero than the days when I got a ton of time and do a full workout.
eal exc d amped up about their habits.
y want up with this like perfect version.

eve pea rmance, what would that look like?
my best
k it’s etter to ask like, what could I stick to even on the bad days?
ur base
art fro
d days,

t up.
ick to the bad days?
lace to
re thin in one of the dangers of quote unquote optimization,
also a understood term.
n is op ion for the moment in the day or the hour, not some perfect ideal.
sides t vailability of like over-the-counter stimulants and energy drinks
w to fo many of which I, you know, talk about online and elsewhere is that most people who are in some sort of pursuit writing or school or otherwise experience the perfect flow, quote unquote, or groove of being really in the zone.
ways ch hat.
below els like it wasn’t worthwhile.
ay that ame that, you know, getting something in on the days when you’re less than optimal or far less than optimal is actually where you change yourself in a way that makes those optimal days more available.
ring, t ying hurt teaches you how to play well under great conditions or play even better under great conditions.
s abili
e consi you enlarge your capacity to handle more.
ility a den your skill set.
of str o handle the harder thing later.
ans you p on the days when it’s not perfect.
l like the only place that you gain an edge.
days, e y works out on the easy days.
hen the good.
hen the time and energy and capacity.
t when t optimal.
ce that in separation.
ways t up even when the circumstances aren’t ideal, even if it is less than you ultimately hope to do, ends up being a real win.
I thin o, so critical.
at, you there’s a perfect state that they’re pursuing or that it takes 50 days to develop a habit or 29 days and we can explore that whole thing as its own discussion.
import people to understand that the consistency piece raises the ceiling.
heard ed that clearly.
you pr it that way because that’s something that anyone can do, right?
e sente day.
suggest t the consistency piece really does seem to elevate the ceiling on performance and what’s possible.
I thin been exposed too much to these concepts of flow, in my opinion.
ck on S Kotler and the beautiful work that he’s done in Csikszentmihalyi, who originated the term.
Csiksze yi, I think it’s a wonderful literature and it certainly has its place.
in thei it of flow look at the grind as failure and they don’t really know what the grind is.
ere you e doing sets to failure in the gym?
quote writer’s block?
t down just simply showing up over and over again that raises the possibility for flow, raises the possibility for optimal performance.
the ba on what failure or poor performance is as well, which means you’re getting better.


Atomic
st star king out, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn’t allowed to stay at the gym for longer than five minutes.
r, drov e gym, got out, did like half an exercise, and then he’d get in the car, drive back, and go home.
, you k u’re like clearly this is not going to get the guy the results that he wants.
tep bac you realize is he was mastering the art of showing up, right?
type o n that went to the gym four days a week, even if it was only for five minutes.
nversio at most people do, which is we sit down, we try to perfect it, you know?
diet pl
rkout s ?
es stra
ant to erything lined up first, and then we take the first step.
that.
from Ed ore where he says the heaviest weight at the gym is the front door.
e are a things in life that are like that.
st step first movement.
the ar owing up, well, now he’s in the gym.
na.
f impro that you can make.
eeks in was like, well, I’m coming here all the time.
rt work a little bit longer.
t is su tter place to be than to trying to get it perfect from the start and then feeling like, well, if I can’t run four days a week, why am I bothering?
t work 45 minutes, then it doesn’t matter.
matter time you show up.
uilding .
s, what actually describing is just the process of learning.
learnin behavior.
tter at ng that you practice, anything.
that i ractice basketball, you can go play in the NBA in six months, right?
.
y will tter basketball player six months from now than you are today if you practice it each day.
t you h once unknown to you.
were bo did not know how to cut a tomato or, you know, play a musical instrument or even brush your teeth.
ose thi and many others.
you le ngs is by practicing them.
u learn is also by practicing them, even if it’s small.
ortant habits through the lens of learning and therefore neuroplasticity, right?
broad t t can be many.
roke wi ce neuroplasticity, but not the kind one wants.
ise def would be, you know, sort of, I call it self-directed adaptive plasticity.
m, but s for what we’re talking about.
asticit hort.
t cut y
like t -directed piece is an important part there.
n’s lea abits all the time, right?
ts whet are in control or not, whether you care or not.
od reas ant to know what they are and how they work.
s not w you will gain new habits.
n desig right, or be in control of them, whether it can be self-directed.

worth e g this a little bit because, so for neuroscientists who learn
ou lear developmental plasticity, which existed in all of us when

assive nce shapes us.
t up un ey always say, until age 25.
hen the closes for, like, multi-language learning without accents,
uch, mu difficult after 15, 20, 25 than it does, say, at 40, 45, or 60.
it, but es much more effort.
earning
ed piec teresting because there are sort of two forms of that.
t’s exp e, like you’re trying to, I don’t know, figure out how to paint
o, but ‘t really know what the painting is going to be.
s calle uctional plasticity.
ict ter be self-directed, adaptive instructional plasticity.
to be, ow, kind of a mouthful.


al piec there’s a correct answer.
nswer.
are fa with the fact that, you know, there’s these certain forms
here’s ct answer that the nervous system needs to learn, like how
ow from icular location on a court, for instance.
with a enunciation in a different language, for instance.
ght and s a wrong.
this gu h, who went to the gym and then left after five minutes,
a merg where he, through some unconscious genius, realized that the right
in the d had to teach himself that piece as opposed to the entire

king, r
t there erequisite to getting in the gym.
ng ther e first place.
to lea to do an entire workout, it’s too much.
to lear o perform really well, we’re really trying to learn 50

chunki s so simple on the face of it.
tructio sticity says we need to learn the right answers and then

k he wa .
ly onto ing and really in tune with what the neuroscience says.
they’re g it simple or making it simple, but they don’t realize
involve
st gett the gym.
rkout, t getting there.
go to?
oing to
e work r work?
on you r is it on your commute?
e separ
ing a w ttle or do they have water fountains at the gym?
ike a s ing, but I heard from a reader one time who said, I always
tle and on’t have water fountains there.
e going
ion to somebody from doing the workout, right?
y littl like that.
ing to
e the c clean or are they in the laundry right now?
y thing could prevent it from happening.
etting forces you to cross all of those thresholds early on and
get in onsistently week in and week out?
ot that icked, then, okay, great.
hat the workout should be.
any oth r about and talk about this idea that the effort becomes

of the oly grail of all this, right?
at can
of mas c, uh, tones to it.
dating
iends.
time sh said to me, she said, flow, don’t fight.
t are y ing about?
thing t do is you’re sort of like pushing yourself into doing it,
lly enj e activities.
work-r activities.
, oh, s ust like flow into everything that you do?
h, she m Eastern Canada.
is eve p there like that?
actual know, my, my dad or someone in her family is like a fisherman,
in the g, go out in the cold.
person y hearty person, a hard worker, just recently finished

like, t w, don’t fight thing is interesting because I feel like
wake u ‘m like, all right, have to do this, need to.
tunitie I love.

myself only have so much, you know, time on the gas pedal?
‘s righ
d to fl ugh certain parts of our days where we’re just kind of
that we ght harder against the things that were, that are really

since I p this morning, I’m like, I got to ask James this question.
s a way e can kind of toggle, flow, and fight?
ng ques
hts.
or a lo , I wrestled with this question of, do I have to be dissatisfied


it tha e this vision for where I want to be or what I want to accomplish?
my curr te and I realize there’s a gap between where I am
be.
ction w t gap is what drives you forward.
drive t the gap that gets you to show up and work hard or take
thing, w?
ly ther any times in my life when that has been the driving force.
respons nk that I’ve come up with or the counterpoint is, imagine
falls f ree and, you know, it manages to take root and starts to

irst it this little acorn and then it’s a sapling and then it’s,
o this, ally this large mature oak.
that pr id, was it like berating itself for only being an acorn
saplin t?
h yet, being big enough, for not having achieved that outcome.
and thi , what a failure.
ak tree
at ther this dissatisfaction going on, it continues to grow.
wer the t grows simply because that is what an oak tree does.
at is w is encoded to do.
the hea version of me, like just flowing with it, you know, or
it is w I feel like I’m encoded to do?
almost was made for this.
y stren
.

ive.
uite dr d not feel dissatisfied in the moment.
like k the first thing that came to mind.
I have is experience where the effort has been the reward, where
or, yo however people want to phrase it.
the sat on.
e that nce right away.
me.
is a v d example for me.
for, yo 15 or 20 years now.
nt all e things everybody else does, right?
y.
od.
all the outcomes that you want from working out.
of yea ave started to train more and more just because of how
out.
me fee
e to wa
t two y see how I look in the mirror.
en I’m his set.
ore abo experience and liking how I feel when I’m doing it.
the Ato its language, it’s what I call identity-based habits.
how up k out, I am casting a vote for being the type of person
being a te, for being the type of person who doesn’t miss workouts.
st a vo being that type of person, I feel good about myself.
wing up ing the kind of person I want to be.
nforcin sired identity.
one of t certainly is one of the concepts from Atomic Habits that
most wi le, which is rather than starting your habits and asking,
chieve?
you kno mplish?
, who d h to become?
ts rein that desired identity?
for bei type of person?
ke is l ote for the type of person you wish to become.
and you for 20 minutes on Tuesday night, you are casting a vote for

etball hour outside, you cast a vote for being a basketball player.
hose ar things.
ean a w t, you know, in any given moment.
f you d r three months or six months or a year, you cross this invisible
oint wh say, yeah, being a basketball player must be a big part

de in i t becomes part of your story, then you’ll fight to maintain

dden, t ation is flipped.
o do it than trying not to do it.
an tryi otivate yourself to stick to it, you’re just saying, this is

t up an for a run because I’m a runner.
a half n in three months.
e I lik this kind of person.
tion of re my actions reinforcing?
eeding red identity is an interesting thing to play with.
rtant q for all of us to ask ourselves.
t frict me is a great motivator.
essenti scientific competition in my postdoc years, also when I

s is gr
ng cons to push against.
ork.
on do y ?

we were ing with.
ea.
d arriv he scene.
tools.
g tools was very, very competitive.
s is so
arms ra

piece a ot our piece and it all worked out.
tion ca that out.
really .
nxiety certainly.
you ca lly get scooped.
very ha a lot of years and someone can beat you to the punch.
l the s or postdoc, like we are resetting.
postdoc s scary.
your c here there’s a bit more assurance that you’re going to be okay no matter what.
the ca

ick the ms that are like very timely.
became ble to answer questions that people have wanted to answer for a long time.
ster.

ink, go this unhealthy?
unheal
ur in t ing and going to lab and like beating them.
ou kidd
buildi areer, but I wouldn’t want to do that forever.
ce soun ly, really nice.
e, I do w, I agree completely with what you said that in the friction, you get these sort of breakthroughs of like, oh, this went well for five minutes.
.
ld on t pockets.
enjoy kout, the set.
onance at.
rcising ou’re one of the few people I’ve ever met that doesn’t say, oh, I like how I feel afterwards.
fterwar I also like how it feels in the moment.
do as w

t.
of it.

ft that d to work for.

that yo made, it’s hard for you to imagine always being in that flow or always feeling that way about it.
ition c ery healthy.


sist an ho would say that they’re always in one or the other.
in bot time to time.
t the c ion between the labs, that’s instructive for building habits too.
helps gs have stakes.
tually ard for me to care if there are no stakes.
somethi matters.
why I d to start sharing my ideas online.
orthop actice just doing like an internship over the summer.
ago.
ng abou s.
d nobod me to.
use I w rested in it.
doc th like 60 pages long.
mes’ th on habits.
Word do nd of boring.
.
, event need to put some of this up and just see is it any good or not.
r not?
led to lair.com and then eventually Atomic Habits.
here we es forced me to up my game.
gree is mechanics and then I got a business degree as well.
egree i ology, you know, or neuroscience, which is kind of what I think you would expect somebody who writes about habits to have.
f lamen at early on.
a frien e said, well, the way you become an expert is by writing about it every week.
y inter that.
article k for the next three years.
you wr articles about habits, you learn a lot along the way.
public, d get criticized every time.
de the ch better.
know, ble to triangulate my way to, you know, putting together some decent ideas about the topic.
and su ng bad habits is synonymous with your name and vice versa.
everal can think of.
re Plat e Dates, who does online fitness and health content.
e forma ing in the information they share, who are both superb, like truly superb.
bit.
went o is way to make sure that he was reading things with, you know, an extra attention to the detail.
e commu n about it was correct.
hat he have formal training in that area.
ining, me.
uff, ex and health, as well as habits, you can practice them too.


stion i competence versus credentials.
gument l, you don’t have a degree in this, well, that doesn’t really tell me anything.
is thi nce is wrong, okay, well, now we have something to talk about, you know.
s are r d I just don’t have the degree, you know, too bad.
right?
ideas r
sensib practicality that I think really resonates with people.
with k ivory tower academic stuff that, you know, is associated with high levels of credibility is oftentimes people feel like it’s,
of tou the real world.
erge of o is great.
entists ome to you and now you can read a paper.
.

be a co on either.
s just, e ideas right?

e right great.
e wrong I have some learning to do.

the re d?
have be from these.

ment to the effort, the reward is something that can happen.
top-do ning.
hts on
ll ours you know, this pain is good.
better.
are tw of parallel examples in the world of exercise where it’s very concrete.
to the ive space.
the inc things about resistance training is this notion of the pump.
I enjo ut because it gives you a little visual and, like, sensory window into what will happen if you do things correctly.
roper n n, et cetera.
get a and a sensory window into the future.
vidence n the moment you’re doing it right.

t you e ith, it sort of parallels that progress during the workout.
g, like run up a steep hill with a weight vest on, my lungs are burning.
a lung.
want t .
selves, this is good.
better.
he next
faster moment.
, this it feels like to really be faster than I am on this current day.
are im .
as kind plates for the positive feedback I can give myself.
ood str writing or podcast prep where I’m, like, really finding papers.
o cool.

s is re od.
groove.
the pu he gym thing.
somepla
s are r like, running up against a brick wall and it’s like, this is so painful.
yself t okay, this is good.
better.
in lear
experi friction.
experi performance.

arn fro rmance.
failure ?
nge unl has to change.
houghts s as it relates to the space.
think ts and learning, like how to learn a new language or a musical instrument or just changing one’s daily routine so that one is healthier or kinder.
people ruggle with kind of being jerks, you know, and I think they’re trying to be kind.

p the h being kind if that’s not their nature.
ings ma ou?
eople w plain about writing habits, for example.

cult.
ow, ard the moment.
to rem elf, yeah, it does feel difficult and that’s kind of why it works.
the gym mplaining that, like, the weights are heavy.
that’s es, the weights are heavy.
etting r.
hard an s how you’re getting smarter.
say, th w you’re clarifying your thoughts.
s feeli y is evidence that you are getting stronger,
hard i nce that you are thinking,
g yours think and clarify.
riction tension that is necessary for growth.
refere telling yourself a better story in the moment,

s is, y is painful, it is hard,
what i to grow.
elpful ome things either beforehand or afterward
that pr o get you to show up.
forehan visualization can be really helpful.
h my ki t trying to help them imagine what a good day would look like.
one son arted preschool recently.
f drop- didn’t have a good day.
w, crie ed a little bit, didn’t really want to stay.
rt of t
I said, ght, it’s, you know, it’s preschool day today.
.
d on, l st, you know, we’re getting breakfast in the morning.
ou like ool, right?
ke your rs.

you gu snack time yesterday?
?

play wi sticks and the crayons.
ol acti
after s ets done?
go out playground and we play for, you know, 30 minutes or whatever.

e.
at I’m to get him to imagine what a good day would look like if it unfolds, right?
ive par he experience that are about to happen.
that y bout to do that you enjoy or that are good for you?
with t ry in your mind.
creases ds that you’re going to show up.
e we ju lucky.

rop off ay.
day.



.

or a wh
hrough .
ger, li 12, 14, my dad and I would do this thing where at the
we go down on the back deck and we would kind of like replay
he seas
best g he best wins, talk about, you know, the best plays that I
hat wen or whatever.
ike emp the wins, you know?
ach sea en if it wasn’t like the best season for me, I was never
any tea I was on, but I finished it feeling good.
a littl f momentum going into the next season.
core qu whether you’re visualizing it ahead of time or rehearsing
at are hasizing?
sting e I heard of one time and you take a piece of paper or

f this that you can’t write down anything that’s false.
s to be f you write it down.
‘re goi rite down the story of your last year, but it’s the negative

that ha the stuff that didn’t go your way, whatever.
u’re go write it down the story of your last year, but it’s the

had, t gs that worked out well, you know, your best days.
se two of paper, there are no lies on either one.
stion i h one are you emphasizing each day?
y do yo with you when you go into the next experience?
are not ng reality, you know, as long as you’re not ignoring the
ion and ou need to manage or what you need to face, I think you
yourse more empowering one.
s want y that version with you that makes you feel inspired or empowered

will in the odds that you show up.
t’ll ne ly make you a kinder person, but certainly it puts you
n for t ike that to happen.
s some rehearsal, let’s say, that you can do to put yourself
n to no just have a good day, but also be more likely to perform

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ery dif to do what one wants to do without imagining it first.
scared e outcome won’t be what they hope for.
ailure I think, is very real.
eflecti t want to hover on that for a second.
e did a de on how best to study and learn.
ourse, oplasticity.
is very htforward.
teresti t in the literature in the last couple of years, which
anythin we reflect on later, we learn faster and we retain longer.
st all ning is anti-forgetting.
obvious
duh.
, peopl ike, duh.
words.
re’s al sensory information coming in, you know, massive amounts.
of it.
ant or , you know, it just goes through for whatever reason and doesn’t

instanc d read a passage once or twice or three times or four times and
rivatio o they take notes, do they highlight, do they talk about
tera, t e two things that really make things stick.
ting, j u know, reflecting later, like, oh, did I, what happened?
r that.
g.

low sta incredibly powerful for retaining information.
as just ting on, like, what happened?


t you’r ibing about, about these exercises and your kid’s day, right?
tle bit e the spaced repetition literature.
ction i another instance of spaced repetition.
later resurfaces the material and that increases the odds that


undergr and graduate courses, medical students, I can tell you,
ents an al students are universally motivated because the stakes

maller.
e of a, community around those.
a filt to get in, right?

bias j be there.
varies e and course and et cetera and major, et cetera.
it’s th or or not, I’m not saying different majors are more or less

ing is st students are exposed to information.
r the e

ime tha are evaluated on that material in any kind of concrete way

at actu st themselves or that ask for some, the best students always
e-quiz
rformin nts.
just b lling to feel the pain of being wrong when they’re very low


be wron

know, a decide to put it online.
s wrong

ng had ainful experiences where I just said the wrong thing in passing
was tu to a not joke.

dback.
jokes I hat then, like, were cut and exerted.
riences inful enough that you check everything with a fine-toothed

that’s y it is.
ople wi nything to avoid that kind of scrutiny.
llingne ean into that scrutiny and just have the general public

se idea ng?
working

where t ‘t work, you’ll never forget.
ey work l never forget.
friend id that she had kind of this, like, perfectionist streak.
ck now life and see that if there was a moment when
ing som and she thought, oh, well, I couldn’t be as good at them,
they ar won’t be the best at that, then she would talk herself
l.
and it’ anti-growth mindset.


about cause I don’t feel that way, even though I feel like I did,
, have ike, I don’t know if we call it perfectionist tendencies,
very hi re to do it right, you know, or to get it right.
ke I di talk myself out of it.
was tha
there?
was in most of the time was, I can learn this.
bout a son, right?
I coul better or worse.
ng.
I can that out.
sting t e it out.
approac f your habits and maybe a lot of life with this lens of curiosity,
ly abou ng or succeeding, it’s about reaching.
t tryin hing new and then seeing what you can learn from it.
good po too, because it’s a little bit less about, you know,
place.
lf to b rly competitive person.
you don everything about that, you know,
t from rt, because you can talk yourself out of a lot.

continu aced myself in venues, you know, academic and physical,
y I was to be the best in that environment.

l of ne o compete in order to, not with my colleagues,
side my ution, like where it’s a great motivator for the extra mile,
a mile thing.
ko talk this, like, you know, waking before the enemy,
ere, ri fore he became a writer,
h-risk, onsequence.
up ear ike, more of your people might die.

stakes, onsequence, right?
additi iction can really bring out people’s best.
e point become painful to the point where people around us obviously can suffer.
maintai ause I know his family, beautiful family,
g all t legitimately gets up at 4.30 in the morning.
h him.
down o loor gasping for air.
ke, a s r another time.
factor , and he wanted to put me through the factory reset protocol.


ink tha ves in a land where the friction is the reward, but also that the rewards come from relaxation, too,
ted to p, because after the sauna that night, the rest of us packed it in for the day, and he went to see a show.
also re
ow the f striving can be also mirrored by the habit of real, true relaxation.
the thi need to do or trying to build, but allowing that maybe plasticity to take place, not just in sleep.
ve rela
ow it’s o just completely chill?
retty g shutting off when I decide to shut off.
it was Ferriss’ podcast at one point.
n on th d Josh said something about how he was doing a—he was in a martial arts competition,
asleep , like, bench on the side, and they came over and woke him up,
we got me wrong for your—for your event.
ly up i , two minutes.
ke up o he sleep, and they did this little, like, pre—pre-competition ritual
pped th h and was, you know, ready to go.
this i ce of being able to turn it on and turn it off.
ve hear example from him, I’ve been thinking more about this idea of turning it on and turning it off.
print, n you rest.
like i life?
k—first , I think it’s kind of fractal.
n say y d have, like, a 10-year sprint where you’re, like, really career-focused.
f your ght now.
next se more family-focused or more relaxation-focused or whatever.
could or week or, you know, even hour.
and sca .
maybe tter version of what it means to be balanced.
lk a lo work-life balance or what balance might look like.
ht actu turning it on and turning it off really well.
ything e, 50%.
just, l aying at some steady state.
you’re ng, you’re actually sprinting.
ting, y ctually resting.
oscilla een those two states in lots of ways I think is very helpful.
he phys ys in which you could do it, whether it’s working out or, you know, actually relaxing and resting.
ental w do it, too.
this a months ago.
arty.
ime you ting a event, there can be, like, this urgency that comes, right?
ng.
ng.
levels t up, like, you know, is everything ready?
I was with was, can I be outside and above this?
mentall I step outside and above the situation and almost, like, look down on it?
ide and the situation, really what you want is to feel larger than the situation that you are dealing with.
than th tion mentally, then it is driving you, right?
respond this larger thing that you feel like you can’t control.
outsid bove it, now I can look down on what is facing me right now.
ser dec r a calmer decision or whatever.
o find kind of turn the anxiety on and off, right?
ss on a
e are a of things that you can do there.
et bett racticing it myself.
ord res ot in our, like, action palette enough these days.
s so ea ring information and work to wherever we happen to be.
t work, ommunications.
point nt years to put social media on one phone, maybe even keep it in a lockbox.
ke hike I’m just spending time with the person I’m with and the phone is back in the car.
‘s a da that.
e a fir

ow, mou ions, this kind of thing.
rth it, y worth the untethering, in my opinion.
risk, u know.
are pe ound.
ot clea hone would save you from a mountain lion anyway.
f.
ly redu reaction time.
oments.

sting.
here’s ent to, if you’re the type of person who has a very strong work ethic,
your w of problems throughout life.
long t at was my solution to something.
g, well I’ll just work a little bit harder and I’ll work my way out of it.
orked f for a while, you end up using it as a crutch.
comes t ng that you just kind of, like, slide back into.
ds, mat ally speaking,
hat the that you’re doing today or this week is the highest and best use of your time?
ble tha re actually working on the thing that is the best use of your time.
has som where he said something like,
ery hig or working on anything other than thinking about what to work on.
e right to focus on is going to get you 100 or 1,000x the results.
10% har
x the o you need to direct the attention and energy to something else.
eating o rest, to reflect and review, allows that opportunity to arise.
ives I or companies that I speak at or work with,
nd of t ut.
now, th orking quite hard.
eir hea and try to knock out the things that are on their plate.
to do i back and relax and think for a moment to reflect and say,
he righ s?
of the mportant time that I have carved out in my week.
30 min ery Friday where I just do a weekly review.
g sched
ng abou usiness.
the bes comes out of that.
ly be b f it was three hours instead of 30 minutes.
need to t least some time to sit down and think,
recious and attention in the right way?
st and ion and relaxation play directly into that.
ing, if just sprinting all the time,
space t he larger picture.
trigued s concept of wordlessness,
ody and into states of, while awake, wordlessness.
ormatio g in about work or really anything.
nal sta een awake and sleep.
yoga n pe practices.
know, l ing or running or swimming,
es thro eriod of chatter
about er thing.
int, ev g becomes discontinuous in a way.
to mus
hat doe r me.
ing rig is like how I get after like maybe an hour into a hike or something.
as eith ng back from it or on the hike or, you know?
teresti g is I feel good.
er.
these p like forest bathing or things like that.
er afte than I do after like the same amount of time looking at my screen or something like that.
ely dif state.
ost fee it taps into something deeply biological where you’re like, oh, we are in fact animals.
ere int o live out in the forest.
state t ‘re describing to me feels how I feel when I hike.
taps i ething.
ltivari
now, th spectrum light from sunlight.
ou’re n enery, you know, the leaves stay relatively cool even on hot days.
ect sur ly because it’s not the way you would expect it based on the physics of the color of green leaves.
f infra ht essentially being reflected back on you.
ight is e type that damages your skin.
feeds tochondria.
tes you s surface.
s the m dria.
lly int g things about being in nature, greenery, forest bathing.
get al ed about that.
ring sh re they’re not actually grounding to the ground.
bit tri
tream j ls good with bare feet, obviously.
true k primordial reset, just trekking.
nates w too.
.
on a hi y Wednesday and it feels like I get to reset.
someon
self.

a frie usually-
someth one?



, it’s in the woods.



ming mo mountain man each year.

re is t urn to things that are more, you know, in real life, as

ility t is such a huge part of being a great, you know, anything.

t, yeah fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, fight.
way.
to bri thing up that you raised earlier and I should have asked then.
tity.
reasons t’s so hard for people to relax and reset or to shift their
mode o .
you sai ad this online blog and then you decided to focus on the book and then now you’re doing a number of other things.
sting t re how we catalog wins or how we carry our wins as well as our losses.
ot of p they’ll publish a book, if they’re lucky, it has half the success of Atomic Habits.
like th er have to do it again or they have to do something to sort of maintain the buoyancy of that experience out there in the world as opposed to just being able to shelve it in their mind.
me.
ts is a impressive book and it’s done incredibly well for all the right reasons.
ike, ok that, like next thing.
do tha
kin, Jo friend and he’s just has this incredible ability to be like, I’m done playing chess.
thing.
.
cut tie his previous self.
find t ficult.
d to su here we succeeded before or else it no longer is real.
ay with ea of habits and identity and kind of what you’re on the precipice of now?
tion.
umber o hings that I researched when I was writing the book, stories that came up.
felt it ally.

y when riting the book who was in the military.
he’s li identity for the last 20 years is I was a soldier.

m I bas
mmon on here is from athletes.
is way.
profess , but, you know, I played all the way through college.
of your year.
s for 1 now.
udden t day, you’re not an athlete anymore.
m I?
ike a h t of my identity.
imagin know, founders when they sell their company or CEOs after having a long run.
just l have something that was a huge part of your life and now you’re not.
er the ay who said, I’m suddenly an empty nester.
I’ve be ng care of these kids.
e moved
t am I

y commo eople to have something like that, an identity that they feel like they’ve lost.
ng that the most was trying to find through lines from that previous identity that can still serve me in the new season.
dier ex
soldie re.
be a go mate.
e of pe o falls through on their mission.
y who’s le and can be counted on.
you sta ook at the parts of your past where you were that kind of person and then look at your current situation where can you express those traits again.
s an en eur, I always emphasize being an entrepreneur and a creator more than I did being an author.
dmit th an author now because I have the book.
see my is an entrepreneur.
om blog k to co-founding companies like that, to me, that feels connected because I have that story as the through line.
t it’s about abandoning your past in any way or saying that, oh, that didn’t happen or it happened in a different way.
ding th of the experience that you can hold on to and feel proud of and carry into your next chapter.
goes on r.
does.


last fo
very, v ud of what it was.
nd some of it that we can take with us to the next thing.
identit ounds like you are very content with understanding where you’re at, where you were before and where you’re headed next.
e get t up is that they want to be understood by the outside world or they have a hard time cutting ties with how the outside world is.
ndersta m.
world, I ask it, it was James Clear and he says like the author, you know, it can be harder for people to cut ties with that.
lot of of professions and friends who are very, very successful.
ample, example is a very important one.
few ti X and other social platforms of founders that sell their companies for half a billion dollars, billion dollars.
n Valle
ng some se people over time and inevitably they don’t feel good a few days later.
tum dep of sorts.
r them the hunt and now what?
repare t, actually it can be catastrophic.
r billi , you know, but I think it’s more of a model for what we all experience.
tles th ell ourselves we have and that we’re living into are powerful but double-edged.

the mos ack about our identity from people I think is also dangerous because it can hold us in place in a major way.

e found ple shows it very explicitly because there’s this exit for a large amount of money.
for any
uld opt or playing the game and not necessarily winning the game, right?
et to c to keep playing?
ways, w rize these outcomes.
ike how want to spend your days?
oose a ject to focus on, one of the first questions I ask is how do I want to spend my days?
box ar at you want that to look like.
, how c make the biggest impact, make the most money, reach the most people, you know, whatever.
it.
lot of e is people start by asking the second question, which is how can I make the biggest impact or make the most money or reach the most people?
themsel o a daily life that is outside of what that box would contain.
his is ually how I want to spend my days.
the ou like the founder selling for $500 million and not for the daily lifestyle.
at’s wh ers the most is do you like how you spend your days?
ver you
ow, do l alive during your days?
rent, i res you to ask a different question than what most people are asking most of the time.
general ing us most of the time.
ssed, t mpletely candid, I’m very impressed by how self-identified you are with your role at a given stage of your work life.
have a et cetera.
s well.
ess pla is chess prodigy, the movie about him.
bricks for him to stay in that role, maybe not forever, but to hold on to that identity.
s.
ther ga hess.
t chess ‘ll talk about it with great affection and also with a little bit of pain about some of the painful points of it.
just cu ord and be the next version of himself and the next version.
time w started a family, because I, you know, that’s the most transformative step, right?
use you ll these new roles that are suddenly in.
fession terms of artistic roles, creator roles, entrepreneur roles, I think most people have a very hard time breaking the mold that they’ve stepped into.
r examp re he just basically left Hollywood.
like, d it.
hest pa r in the world, I think, at one point.
t like ccessful by other accounts, too.
e, I’m
t?
s the m
‘s so b l, right?

‘re doi or themselves, it’s great.


book, r

to cho themselves.
t to st his role or emphasize this identity or, you know, move on to something else?
what y aying is revealing a deep and important truth, which is that identity is a double-edged sword.
conver we were talking about how building habits and repeating habits casts votes for your desired identity.
e of be t kind of person.
elpful ecause it gets habits to stick and habits to build.
ke prid ing that type of person.
intain its.
, you c see that the tighter that you cling to any given identity, the harder it becomes to grow beyond it.
kinds o les like this, right?
geon wh e an operation a certain way for 15 years and has a long list of patients who have gotten good outcomes.
nology n and they resist it or kind of slow to take it up because they want to do it their way.
udden, ars later, they’re behind the curve.
ave a t who has always done her lesson plans a certain way for 20 years.
mes alo like she needs to utilize it, but she doesn’t want to.
udden, ars later, they’re behind the curve.
any oth gs, too.
mebody ys on a given path for too long.
ou grip t identity, the harder it becomes to grow.
I view the identity is very helpful early on.
tting a established.
that t person that you want to be.
g that ys being retouched.
is nev ing totally the same.
your id that are more fixed than others.


ot goin ange.
big par our identity that are always going to fade and ebb and flow and change with time.
play a game again.
e that your identity is in the past.
it’s a eing touched and edited.
willin o reinvent yourself, to edit as time goes on, life is dynamic.

illingn continue to reinvent and edit as you go.
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ing tha ery stage of life is very relevant to how people decide to show up.
ng that started studying neuroscience, there was no field of neuroscience, but they had a textbook that was, I think it was like biological psychology or something like that, or physiology.
e book, ey had pictures of some of the luminaries in the field.
eople y d actually put that in the kind of jacket of the book.
they ar
their p , and I’ll never forget, there were little quotes below.
t even o it was, because I have a pretty good handle on neuroscience history, but I don’t remember who it was.
ote was oy doing research more than eating.
ds like ly cool profession.
logy, b s like, how cool would that be?
ves to
to eat
is that
an eati
.
lly I e ced that, how much fun doing experiments is.
e, I th t, yeah, the danger is people get into a mode where they can’t shift.
ce, too has to do with recognition, either large scale, like the kind of recognition you’ve achieved, or smaller scale, like in a community or in a family.
moment movie, Basquiat, about Jean-Michel Basquiat, the painter, where he’s having a conversation with his friend about fame and how it can contaminate the creative process.
it is b y, and we’ll put a link to it.

doing the talking.
ing to k is fun.
great,
it is t you become known for something that’s not the most important thing to you or work that you did is recognized but not for the reasons that you did it, that there’s this kind of mismatch.
is see be understood in the way that you want to be understood and for every level of what you do to be understood.
when c m starts to hurt is when it starts to feel like misunderstanding of how genuine you are about your work or they’re just getting it all wrong.
g at th things, but they’re getting it wrong because they don’t understand your motivation.
the mos ful things is to develop habits that are really around your understanding of who you are and why you’re there.
to achi se milestones and the feedback.
ck come e very cognizant of, like, that doesn’t change why you did it.
ually c
ke cont your own thoughts is really what we’re talking about and your own goal process.
eally d people.
chel.
roin ad d he died, I think, of AIDS or a heroin overdose or both.

learly s artists when they achieve success but they’re not understood.
destroy reneurs too.
sting l experience with Atomic Habits.
one ve f Atomic Habits.
n versi
25 mil ople who have read it have thought.
ntrol o of them.
able, r

terms .
it.
it.

to the now where it’s, you know, it’s the highest rated habits book of all time, which I’m really grateful for that.

one of t-selling books of all time.
up the he best-seller non-fiction list.

out thi
e of th 00 selling books ever.

even ye
that is

can jus that it’s good now.
al?

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ngs dif y if I could write it again today?

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are 25 n interpretations of it or that some people won’t like it, it’s fine.

ouple o e who have had projects.
alked t
n’t.
someone e that Adele, when she wrote Someone Like You, she was like, the best song that I’ll ever make is behind me now.
s, like of depressing in some way.
at way tomic Habits.
st be a t that I worked really hard on and did my best, and it went well, and that’s fine.
o be.
nd do t thing and try to do my best with that.
oesn’t become your whole identity, which I guess ties back to the point that you’re trying to make,
der to healthy identity and in order to let it grow through these different seasons of life,
ixated other people think about it.
r I’m w about what someone else thinks, I’m usually not actually worried about a particular person.
bout, l at they’re saying about me.
own and y, well, do you care what Sarah thinks?
I’m no lly worried about what she thinks.
worried is this collective imaginary they in my head.
oh, it ally fictional.
and rel yourself from that fear a little bit, I think, helps you maybe move on to the next thing you need to do.
a heal ationship to this whole thing, not just success of the book, which is definitely earned, but just the identity piece, which, you know, again, I think can happen at the scale of two people, right?
do some or someone else, we want to be, we want to better serve them or the relationship.
so, peo erally want to not just be seen for the effort, but they want to be understood for why they did it.
they’re person and they want to be, see, and this whole notion of like trying to hold on to the, or to grasp the understanding of motivation, it does not work.
the lev the only time it works is when there’s just one of you and you know what’s true for yourself.
thing t on to. And I think it’s very important. Um, this notion of feedback from other people, I think the story that people start to create for themselves, if they, um, if they get critique, not just in the public space, but from anyone is that I do think that people tend to map it to some story in their head about like their family, like they had, you know, a alcoholic parent or no one’s really succeeded.
it’s h do think for people to break through in new environments, you know, their first person, their family to go to university or something like that, or to play a competitive sport at a certain level.
lure co k, a, a, an instance of failure, I think they map it to like, what this means about me as a person I’m fated. My family line, my history is fate. Like all this fading to be stuff is very dangerous, but I can tell you based on, um, growing up where I grew up and being surrounded by the people I’m surrounded by that the people who have never had a story of failure or trauma or difficulty.
rrified ey are actually the most vulnerable. Most of the people I’ve known that have self harmed in sometimes very serious, irreversible ways or just completely crashed their lives.
glowing es of what’s possible and creativity and performance, academics, sport, all this are people that had never failed until they failed. And I think it, it gets to this very point.
hat I t doesn’t have to be sports. Sports is just happens to be how I learned it. I’ve, there are many ways to do it. I think really what it probably comes down to is performing publicly or performing with a risk of failure.
e of th ink the best lessons that I pulled out of playing sports is what it feels like to fail publicly and getting over that. Nobody wants to strike out to end the game. But if you do, you feel terrible for a little bit. And then you realize you move on. Um, when I got to college, you go into the gym and you’re training with the rest of the team. And like you’re a freshman and you’re weaker than the other guys. And that doesn’t feel good, but you miss a set. And then you move on and you go do the next exercise.
ittle m of failure that you have to learn how to get over and get through. And each time that you do, you are training this muscle of learning what it’s like to rebound. In a lot of ways, the secret to winning is learning how to lose.
ning ho unce back from a loss and figuring out how to show up again the next time despite that. And so sports was the best way for me to learn that. By the time I got to my senior season, I said, I don’t care. I would rather be out there. You know, I don’t want us to lose. But if we’re going to lose, put it on my shoulders. I can handle it. I’ll take the loss. You know, I don’t want us to lose, but I would rather be out there.
rved me well in my entrepreneurial career too, because I’ll reach. I’ll try. And ultimately what matters is not that you keep winning, but that you keep reaching.
ou reac h, something’s going to work out for you, but you have, you can’t be scared of failure in order for that to work. You know, you have to be able to know how to lose. You have to be able to know how to come back from a loss.
ul. And ct that you were willing to do it publicly is very powerful because nowadays, I think it’s almost always public. You know, I’m a big fan of Twyla Thart, the choreographer.
she ta ut how the important thing as a dancer or a choreographer is to fail a lot in private so that you don’t fail in public.
ch more ult. Like any mistake that’s on a stage or a court is going to be on a phone and a video and it’s going to hit the internet.
izable y is, the more famous they are, the harder it is for them to control their perfect reputation.
of an i n of what we, of how at least I was raised, where everyone in the textbooks and whether or not it was Martin Luther King or whether or not it was a sports star, whoever, like they only showed you the best parts of these people’s lives.

hed. It out there. And so I think just the act of being online for like a middle school kid is a very scary thing, right?
like if ing doesn’t go well, if they’re like dancing, like school dances, I have a, you know, niece was like, I asked her about the school dance, she’s like, oh yeah, there’s no phones there, right?
t? You ike no phones so that they can just enjoy themselves, right?
and ru d gossip and drama, it exists at every level.
or at S is a true luminary in the field of biology. He once said to me, he said, it’s all just like high school forever.
, reall he’s like, yeah. He’s like, you can change, people change. He’s like, but the way people interact and what they talk about and what’s most salient and is rarely what’s most important or interesting, you know, and the drama and all that.
on fore l the whispering, the this and that. He’s like, it never ends. It’s like, it’s baked into everything. He didn’t say nursery school and elementary school, fortunately, but everything from high school forward, he insists it’s exactly the same.
guess t ‘t call them old age home, retirement homes. There’s like drama, you know, really? So I think it’s important to recognize.
ce for atements to be true. So Twyla Tharp’s statement, you make a lot of mistakes in practice so that you, you know, perform excellently in public. That’s definitely true, right? Like I, when I was, when I was playing baseball or getting ready for a big test, you know, my dad would sometimes say to me, you know, if you’re nervous before the performance or something, you’re like worried how the game’s going to go or worried about this test you’re going to take, he would say, trust your preparation.
kind o essages there. Like the first is, you know, relax, you’re going to be able to perform whatever, but obviously the second hidden message is you better prepare, right? Like you need, you need those reps in private in order to perform in public.
a dura th that is, that is consistent throughout life. You know, like the person who prepares, um, is in a better position to win.
true th gs are more public now than they’ve ever been before. Um, I would say this is maybe one of the biggest downsides of your profile rising, uh, as you get more well-known through your work is that it just creates less space where you can experiment and explore as much.
t harde e to just like kind of run a lightweight experiment. Now it’s like, if I make any announcement, it’s like people are watching. Um, which is great. That’s like a huge luxury to have, you know, as best possible outcome, but it just changes how you need to, uh, I think what it means is you need to be a little more thoughtful about designing a place where you can experiment.
r niece em not having phones at the dance recital. They’re trying to design a space where people can practice a little bit more easily without it, everything being judged as much. So I do think you still need what Twaya Tharp’s recommending. You need a lot, a lot of reps. Um, but then maybe now in modern society, you need to be a little bit more careful about how you structure the spaces to make those reps possible.
this s Adele and her feeling or her conclusion that that was the peak. I think we have to be careful about concluding what’s the peak. Um, I think we also have to be careful about just continuing to pursue one peak after the next, because as you said earlier, you know, there’s certain things that are their legacy. Like they really last. There’s one thing I really love about books, music, poetry, art of all kinds. Um, there are other examples of course, is that they last forever.
ble med ah. What doesn’t last. I should, uh, just, uh, just, uh, counter example is anything that’s in the media. The turnover cycle is, it just doesn’t last. I, I, sometimes think about what’s really legacy content on the internet. And I think a couple of things come to mind there. These are just, it’s just a partial list, but the, um, 2015 commencement speech that Steve Jobs gave at Stanford, I think is, um, stands as legacy content is great value to many people. Um, there are so many Ted talks and, and, and
cellent ery few get signal the noise that you could predict will, you know, make them on there, you know, 15 years from now. But if we were to look at scientific publishing, the same thing is true, right? There are very few papers that stand the test of time, not because they’re, they were wrong, but they get replaced by a kind of a field of review.
s basic me to replace the papers that they describe over time. Uh, so I think seeking legacy is, is dangerous. Um, and it brings us back to this question of, uh, like how to construct the day, you know, cause at the far extreme is kind of a life, a career, a legacy. I’d like to talk a little bit about the day. Yeah. The unit of the day. Um, you’ve talked about never failing twice in a row.
today hat, um, you know, morning, afternoon, two failures, you’re done? Uh, yeah. Uh, I did hear one time, I think Gretchen Rubio was the one who said you should split a day into four quarters. Uh, you got morning, afternoon, evening, and then nighttime or, you know, divide.
efinite h. And then it’s like, if you lose the first quarter, well, that’s all right. You can still come back and win the next quarter. It kind of gives you a permission for the day to not be a wash. You know, I do think that’s a mistake people make. Sometimes they get off on a bad start and they’re like, oh, the whole day is ruined. You know, let’s, let’s reset and try to, you know, think in a lot of ways, living a good life is figuring out a way to have a good day.
n’t go y. You know, if you can have, if you have that ability to bounce back and make something of the day, even when it’s not optimal, that’s, that’s good. You, you position yourself to have a good life because things are not always going to go your way. Um, never miss twice is an idea that, uh, it’s an encouragement. It’s a, it’s an attitude, right? That you show up and, you know, you’ve been following a new diet for eight days. And then on the ninth day you binge eat a pizza and you’re like, well, you know, I wish I hadn’t happened, but never miss twice. Let’s get back on track tomorrow.
know, I a new article every Monday and Thursday. That was the habit that kind of launched my writing career. If I missed on Monday, I wish I hadn’t happened, but let’s make sure I get one out on Thursday.
eal ins re, what you really learn when you look at top performers across many domains is that they make mistakes like everybody else. You know, everybody’s human, but they tend to get back on track quickly. And if the reclaiming of a habit is fast, the breaking of it doesn’t matter that much.
o the e he year and it’s just a little blip on the radar, but it’s missing a habit and letting slipping up once turn into not doing it for three months. That’s the real problem. And so you’re trying to course correct quickly. That’s, that’s what never miss twice is really about. Um, you could break it down within a day. If it’s a habit that you’re doing multiple times a day. Sure. You know, but I, I think the real thing is trying to build this ability to rebound quickly.
‘s also nger of quote unquote optimization as most people perceive it. They figure if they miss the, the optimal window to work or the optimal window to work out that it’s over.
here’s ges to understanding when one is at their mental or physical peak and trying to schedule things that way. Sure. But also having flexibility. I feel like you would be a perfect person to answer some of this, but I, um, this is how I first started thinking about intermittent fasting was, um, it’s like, well, if you, every, everybody was so wrapped up in when exactly you were eating.
you got me amount of calories in a 24 hour period and you just spaced it out differently. One person’s eating every hour, one person’s eating every six hours. One person only eats it all in an eight hour window, whatever. Is it going to make that big of a difference? Like what percentage difference are we attributing to purely meal timing? Right? So I, I don’t know what the answer is. Maybe you do, but, um, I feel like it’s probably fairly nominal. If you’re, if your body’s getting the same amount of calories from the same foods in a 24 hour span, it probably isn’t making that dramatic of a difference.
the one ion is if you start to eat on a nocturnal, more nocturnal schedule, it’s worse. And I’ll battle people to the end of time on this one. I’m not saying everyone has to be up with the sun and down with the sun at the end of the day and only eat on a, you know, when the sun is up and, and, um, and not after the sun is down, but you want to protect an hour or so before sleep, ideally two or three hours where you’re both not gnawingly hungry, nor are you consuming a lot of calories before sleep because it will impede your sleep.
o work ht shift. And by the way, a lot of people are now shift workers. They qualify as shift workers just by virtue of being on their computers at night or, or phones or whatever.
ata jus ng how bad it is for your health, GI health, cancer risk, longevity, et cetera, to be a shift worker. We need shift workers of certain kinds, right?
ft work t eating the majority of your calories too close to bedtime late in the day, not good. Eating the majority of your calories at lunch and dinner, fine. I have a friend who’s a, he’s actually the neurosurgeon at Neuralink at Elon’s company.
, uh, w he skips one sort of traditional meal per day. So I’ll have breakfast and dinner or have lunch and dinner or breakfast and lunch. And he varies it. And, and he insists that it keeps him flexible around this. And, um, he’s certainly healthy. Um, so one, uh, and of one here.
like t ght? You’re not always eating between 11 and seven, which is generally what I tried to do, but sometimes it’s a little bit later, but I totally agree that it calories in calories out and the laws of thermodynamics hold.
ust don to eat in the middle of the night.
is act omewhat instructive for this overall discussion about timing and what the day looks like for habits in general, which is, yeah, if we’re being, uh, perfectly designed and robotic about it, then yes, we can probably figure out optimal window.
ings. U it’s great if your day can go that way, you may not always have enough control over your day to make that happen, but on the days when you can, that’s great.
alize i there is a broad range in the middle where you have flexibility and it counts for a lot to get the thing in, you know, whether it’s eating the meal or doing the workout or doing the writing session or whatever, it counts for a lot to do it, even if it’s not at the perfect time.
er extr , maybe like not more nocturnal eating, there’s some window where it doesn’t make sense. Did you miss your workout today?
need t rking out at 2am or should you just go to bed at that point and get some sleep? Um, and you know, like you’ll have to decide what that is for you, but there are probably extremes for lots of these habits where you’re doing a little more harm than good by forcing it.
ange in ddle where it’s like, listen, let’s just not throw up a zero and get this habit in. It’s going to, it’s going to make a bigger difference to do it than to not. Um, and I feel like that amount of flexibility is really good to have, um, for sticking with your habits and adjusting them throughout your daily routine.
there’s erful picture of, uh, the writer, Oliver Sacks, neurologist writer, Oliver Sacks, who was prolific. So many books also incredibly strong, also incredibly, I think he squatted like 525.
won the rnia, I think squat, um, uh, record at one point, 600 pounds.

he was e was, he was strong. And, um, there’s a great photo of him writing outside a train station on, you know, pen and paper with his briefcase on the ground, people walking by.
touted being very inspired. He had, that he would write anywhere, anytime that ideas would come. Turns out that’s not what it was at all. I got to know some people close to him. Turns out that was an instance where he was going between meetings and he had so much to do that he was just cramming some writing in.
o we lo hat picture and we go, and for years, I looked at that picture. I actually had it, a printout of it, you know, pinned above my desk. And I thought that’s an inspired person right there. He’s so excited. And it turns out, no, he was just very, very busy.
oversc person.
in whe wherever he could, whenever he could. So I think we have to be careful how we interpret people’s schedules. I also think, um, the regularity, um, does lead to a kind of, um, the nerdy, uh, term is entrainment. Just like we, we will wake up a minute before our alarm clock goes off.
he way, rained, it’s kind of an operant conditioning of the cortisol response, which is why we wake up in the morning. Cortisol spikes. We wake up, right. And it’s, it’s down to the minute often.
ople ar why do I wake up? It’s because cortisol, it’s rose to a certain threshold a minute before your normal alarm clock time. Or even if you told yourself the night before, it got to get up at 7.30. It goes off, you know, 7.29. Like you’re clocking it in sleep, believe it or not.
we get battling that, uh, I always envision like having to claw my way through barbed wire to get to the really important work and push everything aside, that if we start to do that fairly regularly between the hours of 9 a.m. and 11 a.m., that we’re better prepared for that battle at that time versus in the afternoon.
in the on, but that, I do think it’s an entrained cortisol response, which is what allows us to lean into challenge.
being hing.
s talk e bit about timing and habits and sequencing, because I do think that it’s an important lever that you can pull on for building habits.
eneral think the earlier in the day you do something, the better odds are that it’s going to happen.
that g the more real estate there is for something to interrupt you, for somebody else’s agenda to get put on top of yours, for somebody to need something or an emergency happens.
ease th ihood that the habit’s going to occur.
ng, I t acking a group of habits earlier in the day is probably good.
here is tely, there are 24 hours in everybody’s day, but each hour is under different levels of control for you.
tion is ke, do you have enough time?
ich of urs are within your control or which of your hours can you shape better than others?
t more control than others.
mebody sn’t have kids, then meditating at 7 a.m. might be a great time to do it.
e toddl ning around and trying to get pants on your kid, then, you know, that’s not a good time to try to do that habit.
figure ch of your hours are under your control.
so circ hythm stuff and trying to time things up, especially physical things like working out or whatever.

some o tion there if, you know, if you have the control over that hour.
I think s important to ask is, which of my habits are upstream from other good things happening?
hat pro f I was going to pick the big pillars of what really makes a good day for me, do I get a workout in?

ven hav long.
ve minu
ding?
one se
e are k my like measures.
e I – f the hardest part is choosing what to write.
k what ting about, then it’s easy for me to get going further.
e’s a l that comes after that one sentence.
of the fessional ones that I’m like, if I do those three, I usually have a pretty good day.
writin asier for me after I work out.
ind of chpin one.
at is?
el a ce mount of nervous energy?
is just st-workout high.
clarit know, an hour or two after I work out.
ps.
is also ke to work out not early in the morning, but in the morning.

e going e day.
– it ch y state.
ed afte
ke up a time do you tend to work out?
uld map y to this, but I’m just curious.

up arou nd usually I’m working out around 10 to 11, somewhere around there.
ly ther ome data to support this, but also other timings, that three hours after waking or 11 hours after waking seem to be ideal times to work out.
nd that


t –
.
ally, p due to changes in body temperature and circulation.
ing cor ise that wakes people up.
ut cort ing a stress hormone.
ing cor eeds to be very, very, very high in order to have low cortisol at night.
ave thi of flat cortisol curve, as they call it.
omnia, , a bunch of things that are really bad.
a bad
se, you ly quadruple your cortisol levels, at least during the workout and afterwards, depending on the workout.
ng all rtisol earlier, it’s like a wave front for the rest of the day.
at’s pr what you’re tapping into.


.
as an e ion.
thing i riting is way easier if I do the reading first.
of two philosophical thoughts about it.
ry thou t you have is downstream from what you consume.
ose who low on social media or which podcast to listen to or which book to read or what YouTube channel to watch, you are choosing your future thoughts in a sense.
fills u feed is going to spark the next thought that you have next week or a month from now.
e very ly what those things are.
ually p kind of weight on it.
ter, mo uctive, more creative thoughts, then you need better, more productive, more creative inputs.
hing ha ere this was – I’ve been writing online for 14 years now.
years his pretty rapid growth and I got to 100,000 email subscribers.
, once o 100,000, I got in my head about it.
done wa say, things are going well.
‘re doi
ike, no of people are paying attention, so it has to be really good.
e spend ore time writing and make it better.
iting g e.
s that riting more, but I was reading less.
fewer fewer sources of inspiration, fewer sparks for new, interesting, good thoughts.
decline
t more iving a car.
to take r to the gas station and fill it up with gas.
.
ving a not to just sit at the gas station all day and just stay there and keep filling up.
ive and an adventure and go see some things, which is what writing is like.
op, the nd up stranded on the side of the road.
– they ell together.
kout in en I read, if I’m reading something that’s good, that is like – and I would define good as relevant to what I am trying to write about.
that’s nt to what I’m working on, I almost can’t stop myself from writing.
two or ages in and I have to stop.
just r a bunch of stuff that is sparking or bubbling up.
n that e, it’s usually a pretty good day.

d who’s ng baseball and it’s an awesome game and then just like runs outside and just has to play with his friends.
t a gam her.
of peo just want to just be passive consumers the whole time.
hear th don’t just get, you know, dropped into the reading and just stay with it, stay with it.
gboard ou said, it kind of preloads your brain for doing your best writing.
ink, us aint as a preamble to writing and singing.
riend w he’s both a musician and a producer and he’ll get up early in the morning or sometimes in the middle of the night and he’ll just draw, go back to sleep, wake up.
s music y.
s for, 0 years, 50 years.
rs.
ght.
ing 50 is kind of staggering.
older t m, but it’s,
ght?
are des this process of, of, of loading up your mind and then pivoting to the thing that really matters most,
per imp because most people get stuck in the thing that feels easiest and, and that someone else provides.
sumers, eators.
ople wa e creators, but they don’t know how to do it.
ittle b um, like David Epstein, some of his work on range and, you know, like, uh, exploring broadly and how that, how having a range of either, uh, sports activities or intellectual pursuits can make you better.
s they erts are T shaped, right?
ught, t d broadly, but then they have a narrow vertical where they’re, they, uh, specialize.
eaway t ple have from this a lot is that it’s the top of the T that really matters.
widely
know, the world and expose myself to lots of things, but I actually think the stem of the T is incredibly important.
e precu the top of it mattering at all.
mean is he fact that you have an area where you are focused on the fact that you have an area where you are specializing gives the broad range of things that you’re exposing something to latch onto.

g your expertise or just by, it doesn’t even have to be an area of expertise.
mission roject, an objective.
ctive i ext thing that I’m writing.
re broa listen to podcasts and read books and look at things, that’s always sitting in the back of my mind.
ways th dy.
a waiti a signal.
widely, that thing, that project that I have, it’s forcing me to pick up on different stuff and I’d start pulling that and I start connecting it.
ity is rely is it actually an original thought.
is the is of two things that had not been previously connected.
ur proj your area of expertise, you have something you’re focused on and then you read widely and you look for interesting things that can connect to it.
‘s what ing the whole time.
d I’m l , this would apply to that.
lp myse tart to write about the connection or write about the overlap between those things.
e of th ns why, and I don’t think everyone needs to pursue degrees, but one of the reasons why something like graduate school for those that are interested in really pouring themselves into a topic or a career in a certain area is so valuable because, you know, let’s say biology, you do experiments, but then you walk with other people to a seminar.
ar, you ack, you talk about what was dreadful, what was funny, what was amazing.
t other as well, but you’re sort of immersed in it.
orld, y , it’s a very pure time.
for ev , but it’s a very pure time where you’re just completely immersed in a set of topics and conversations.
rithms tten so good now at detecting the range of things that we’re interested in and feeding those to us.
opportu ere where if the algorithms could be, you know, if we could self-select a filter so that it could enrich us, right?
n YouTu ant to see certain types of content.
k, appe whatever it believes about my, you know, kind of less, let’s call them, you know, just things that they’re not bad, but they’re not good.
any pu n my life.
that s
but I d n to a lot of lectures.
l devel stuff online is incredibly interesting and meshed with scientific literature.
hat app me.
e solut to be a selective forager and books are probably the most direct way to do that.
t books your shelf as opposed to your feed, which you don’t really self-select.

e contr it nowadays, but do you read physical books?
dio boo


do is
ersonal ta against them.
them.

d a boo he first time, usually it’s the physical book that I’m reading.
eally f io helpful.
n’t hav much time.
ing to he road a lot or traveling a lot or whatever, obviously that’s much easier.
have t o as an option.
if an a r a topic is particularly dense, the audio works really well for me.
blem is bogged down with the physical version.
t’s a s read through it.
it in a can often keep pace and I’m understanding the overall argument that’s being made, but I’m not slowing myself down sentence by sentence.
rough s g that’s a little bit more dense in audio much better.
ly when a physical book, I just, I go through and then if any passage strikes me, I put a little parenthesis at the start of it, a parenthesis at the end, and then a star in the margin so that I can easily find them.
e I get ith the book, there’s usually, you know, 30, 40, 50 pages with little stars in it.
eally r , I will go back through those stars and take a photo of that passage, highlight the text on my phone, and then copy and paste it into the doc that I’m working on so I can like have the quote or the passage there or whatever.
that’s y it.
lly wha oing.
physica , interacting with other inputs.
is busi like, it was the great Joe Strummer from The Clash who said, no input, no output, which I think is great.
added very important quote is the, the source and the type of input matters.
d summa is if you want to learn, wonder, if you want to achieve, focus.
t is th ring widely that will surface all sorts of new learnings and insights, but you don’t just want to be surfacing random things.
able t el that into something productive that you are creating, a piece of music, a scientific research study, a book, whatever, you know, whatever the thing is you’re working on, a new business.
row ver here you were focusing, a project where you were dedicated to gives that wandering somewhere to live, some, something to contribute to.
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e bit a e environment of the laptop or the computer screen or tablet?
ery clu space, or there’s a lot of opportunity for an entire universe to exist in that small space, right?
lking a sual apertures, and in the old days, you could just throw on a hat or a hoodie,
f block hing out, put a desk lamp over something, make the room dark,
because was no screen and no feed.
creen, as no feed, and you could go on the internet, but, you know, you were typing,
on pro ts, or you were doing whatever it is you need to do, or reading.
your d and your relationship to the internet so that you can maintain maximum productivity?
estion. unpack something first.
his far never actually defined what a habit is.
oing to it, there are a couple different ways you could define it.
you kno ou talk to an academic or researcher or something,
y it’s tomatic, non-conscious behavior you perform, you know,
king ab tying your shoes or brushing your teeth or something like that.
very i ing way to potentially define a habit is that it’s a behavior that is tied to a particular context.
atching x might be tied to the context of your couch at 7 p.m.
in you g room at 7 p.m., you’re just kind of being gradually pulled toward doing that.
studies ave shown that – or have found that it tends to be easier to build a new behavior when you’re in a clean context,
ntext w u’re not battling the previous cues for your other habits.
you sa ant to get in the habit of journaling each night.
wn on y ch at 7 p.m., your brain is kind of suddenly thinking it’s time to pick up the remote and turn the TV on, not time to journal.
ways ha dicated room where this is going to be the journaling room, but there are a number of steps you could take.
uld jus , set a chair up in the corner, and that chair becomes the journaling chair.
k in, y in that chair, and the only thing that happens when you sit in that chair is you journal for five minutes.
creatin ‘re starting to create a context that is associated with that habit.
here is ything currently associated with it makes it a little bit easier for that habit to form.
the ot s in your environment quite as much.

defini hat truth about habits, and apply it to our smartphones or our laptop screens.
nd the with the modern smartphone is that you are blending the context
bits.
lace wh go to answer an email, or is it the place where you go to browse social media,
where y o watch YouTube, or play a video game, or check the latest sports scores?
e you d f that.
f simil itting down on the couch and trying to journal when your brain wants you to turn on the TV.
hone up ou’re like, I’m going to try to be productive.
, there 17 other things that you’re trying to do at the same time.
ourself ough position, I guess is the point that I’m getting to.
e thing I do.
I have gured out by any means, but these are some of the steps that I play with.
‘t do t the time, but I will say maybe 70% of the time, 80% of the time,
anothe until lunch.
just l o noon-ish, or 9 to maybe if I say I work out at 11, 9 to 11-ish.
ouple h the morning when I’m not responding to everybody else’s agenda,
interru , you know, the phone.
ork on most important to me.
interes out that is, if I have my phone on me, I’m like everybody else.
check y three minutes just because it’s there.
fferent I have a home office, and so it’s just down the hall.
econds ut I never go get it.
did I or not?
e sense ted it so bad that I would check it every three minutes when it was next to me.
nse, I anted it badly enough that I would work for 30 seconds to go get it.
s are l t.
little friction, they will kind of curtail themselves to the desired degree.
he firs s try to separate myself from it.
on the itself, there are things that you can do.
listen e audiobooks, for example, that was when the pandemic hit.
I told
ht, I’m to be at home more.
ore rea .
ible fo books, and I moved it to the home screen of my phone.
r apps, moved them to the second screen.
that I r going to check Instagram again or never going to?
n that r I open up my phone, the visual cue that I see is reminding me of what I want to try to do.
variou s, done much more strict things.
xample, e last year and a half or so, I’ve deleted social media entirely off of my phone.
the de that’s my little rule.
e passw the login, my assistant does.
I want in, I have to ask her for it.
ugh fri hat I don’t do it just to browse.
f I rea d to do it.
for a while, I thought, well, this went well.
email o hone.
y extre e, but it turned out to not be that hard.
if I r eed it, I’ll just download it and I can use it.
ail on e for like six months now.
twice.
kets to to a show that we were going to.
time I the airport and I had to send an email.
I do th , and then I delete it again.
same a ng the phone down the hall, which is it’s just a little bit of friction.
load th very time you want to use it, there will be times when you’ll use it and that’s fine.
wasting or a minute or your thumb is just looking for something to click because you don’t have anything to do,
take t to download it because you’re like, well, I didn’t even want to look that bad anyway.
it for e for it to download.
of the that I’ve been playing with.
you use ograms like Freedom or any of those to lock you out of the internet.
under o om.
edom an s the other one called? Self-Control.
hose at s times, but I haven’t used them for years now.
ng for e while when I was actually working on writing Atomic Habits.
rything not just social media.
m.
on’t wa llow myself to use the internet basically.
, well, l need to be able to research stuff and get to things.
f block ites, got kind of unwieldy.
t I don .

ng bad about it, but it’s not a strategy that I’ve used long term.
little
ggle wi ing on the internet if I have tasks to do on my computer.

e thing e talk about the dopamine hits, et cetera, from the phone.
ink it’ pamine driven as we would like to believe.
nvenien stic.
looks ore like a reflex of, you know, one person picks up their
then s everyone does it.
e are a ious of what they’re doing.
lled a right?

many a ow level, but powerful that I think people are just living
e habit king up their phone and looking at it and scrolling it.

‘s much there in most cases.
researc e lab.
en done t, and listen, I think the discussion around too many
a heal cussion in general.
someth d of off about how we think about cell phone use.
t more s of rewards.
have y ed up your phone, seen something and been like, oh, that’s

on it l at day.
it to y in the moment, but like, if you asked me, what did
ia yest hat was super interesting?
d somet do with a bulldog.
t I can ly tell you.
explore
e, what ally like something really cool that happened yesterday?
ld frie near the beach, et cetera.
salient it just pops right in.

hts abo al media as a reward mechanism or a slot machine?
re as a ind of like it, they, they tapped into kind of like an
e just ly scratch without even thinking about it.
lly int g is let’s use this example of checking your phone and
laws o ior change that we talked about before.
you ca was, um, I don’t know if this is a deep insight to anybody
ike a d ight to me when I was working on the book, which is what
bad hab tried to figure out why do they, why are they so sticky?
to the abits that I want to build.
really for me.
you kno t of people feel like they check their phone too much.
t are t laws of behavior change look like?

ys on u
nd.
o acces
ghly vi
ive.
un thin ly memes and video games or whatever.
f inter stuff happening on your phone.
follow

ngs to here, um, make it easy.
are ju ving to make it as frictionless as possible.
gram wi swipe albums for you so that you don’t even have to swipe

ll do i ou.
just th inual quest toward convenience and ease.
big app ur phone are just taking a modern desire and then making
nvenien
needed
ust tap humb.
our doo
, yeah.
n make sfying is some of that dopamine hit or reward that you
that m
eah, it ll four of those things really well.
is ver y.
t there ey’re like, how long will it take to build a habit?
how lo it take you to get in the habit of checking your phone?
ably do n know.
e two o days or, you know, you never even had to think about

all th ers were pulled, um, it was very easy for the behavior

ing at kes your bad habits sticky helps reveal some of the things
to app our good habits to, to make those more likely as well.
e tools eople can use to break bad habits that are not related

use we’ ady covered those.
lot of who, um, have trouble, you know, craving sweets, um, late
ough on

ke some um, candy type flavor, that’s a tough one.
anage t wait it out.



ow, the t their stuff.
you su
r four that make habits stick.
, attra easy, satisfying to break habits or to, uh, to decrease the odds
going t .
se four
ng it o make it invisible.
d in th , put, you know, uh, unsubscribe from the emails, whatever,
the thi triggers it rather than making it attractive, make it unattractive.
fficult r have bad habits.
ay it’s st place you should probably focus because once you
t taste or that a donut is tasty, it’s hard to rewire your brain
differe
uh, wel give you an example of it in a minute, but, uh, so rather
active, t unattractive.
it easy it difficult, increase friction, add steps between you and

d from who take the sweets and they put them on the highest
.
o walk way out there and climb up to get them.
‘re the
t, but just trying to find ways to increase, uh, friction.
ant to
of ciga on the table in front of you, that’s really low friction.
of wil to resist that.
is thr s down the road to the grocery store, you still might
drive t ut it’s a lot more friction.
than m t satisfying, make it unsatisfying.
t havin kind of immediate consequence to the reward.
ture th ome ways.
e an ag .
t texti my friend Brian the other day and he, uh, he wanted to

lt like ted to lose these last 10 pounds.
rainer n he wrote up a contract between he, his trainer and his

it his check-ins for the next three months, then, uh, there was
wife.
ow, she ke a thousand dollars to go shopping or something like that.
at it w something.
hit it, e got like a thousand dollars to go to the football game

s just m, there’s now some kind of immediate cost to the action that
have it
ersion four laws.
of the ding good habits and breaking bad ones, you don’t need
hings a ame time.
ou have levers working for you, the more likely it is that you’re
tcome t want.
oint th d earlier about making things unattractive is difficult.
have r een it is if somebody kind of gradually changes their

rapid.
read a now, let’s say that every morning you go down and you
jam fo fast.
ou read that convinces you that carbs are the devil and grains are

, I don that at all.
o eat t r breakfast anymore.
his, yo this switch in your mind, you see the loaf of bread.
king br , you think, oh, that’s something I don’t want.
of how d be made unattractive.
ee that ing.
ing aga ains by the way.
are, ri
ay is i e, it tends to be more gradual, you know, like you show
nforcin tain identity and then two or three or four years later, you’re
, this ome an important part of my life.
sed to robably don’t need that anymore.
, you k t it go.
n’t car same weight that it used to carry before in your mind.
.
d focus it because it’s either hard or it’s slow.
hanges ducing exposure to the queue or increasing the amount of friction
you an abit, those are much quicker.
um, ca a big role.
ago, I mething that many people, I don’t know if this is true,
aimed t y people who are, uh, obese, like me, the clinical definition
reporte they didn’t want to exercise because they, um, felt it made

interes
people at and they go, oh, they’re making excuses.
ing.
e that re telling the truth as I think they were, you know,
know, us think of exercise as taking great care of yourself.
around ple longer and yourself and you can all these great things.
a cate people out there that think, no, working out is selfish.
lgent.

altruis
spent ther things.
e for m nd not focused on others enough.

depth hology there, I’m sure.
at I ha sume is that it, it’s a product of environment and
, you k ople come to believe that.
nstance ody who doesn’t want to drink alcohol anymore and you
iversit I went to where everyone drank, like everyone drank, um, you
e fight retty tough uphill battle.
hat the ay to win that battle the first time and every time is
the po re you basically are like, you zig, I zag.
is kind agonistic stance, right?
like y
ating t cause it can separate you from people and social gatherings.
that’s f a hard place to live.
.
it in c but drinking was never really a big thing for me anyway.
or easy do, uh, just by virtue of where I was and me.
example nk, yeah, when you take this, um, you know, everyone
et up a you know, they don’t, you know, why?
like t
ut it’s rator.
, this n of like, how can we build good habits, break bad habits,
text th e in, it runs countercurrent to some of the things we
earlier surround yourself with good books and information, surround yourself
e doing nds of things you want to do.
ople ar g in these landscapes where like the people around them
direct at least not supportive of the right direction.
rt abou you just described is it’s fight, not flow.

t you w ing earlier.
to fig environment for a while, but it’s hard to live that way for the

ost vie onment as like a form of gravity.
both t ical environment and the social one, physical environment is
to do c things in certain spaces.
ing her se this is where the chair is.
where e this room, but I would be sitting on the floor.
ent is ushering me to sit in this spot, right?
being n
gravit ng me here for this behavior.
re out o get out of this room that doesn’t use the door, but I
o, you got to break through the wall or I got to climb through the
g that high friction.
nudged s using the door to get out of the space.
that’s examples sound like quite obvious, but all of the spaces that
that al ong.
thing t easy and natural and consistent to do with the environment.
ort of shered in that direction.
spaces bute to the habits that you’re trying to build?
easier d those behaviors.
u’re fi an uphill battle.
ent is an even stronger form of that.
e thing could add to atomic habits that wasn’t in there, it would
al envi .
the in of friends and family.
didn’t at it was part of it, but the impact of social environment
so str so dramatic.
ike tha ic line of like a fish and water.
is wate
n see i re because it’s just everywhere.

of mul roups.
s are r arge, like what it means to be American or what it means

s are s like what it means to be a member of the local CrossFit
n your or a volunteer at the elementary school.
ps that long to, large and small, have a set of shared expectations,
ms, a s ypical habits that people do in that group.
s are a when they go with the grain of the expectations of that
to sti ecause you get praised for, you get rewarded for, you get

s go ag he grain of the expectations of the group, you get ostracized,
you ge d.
at.
d.
ome dee gical level, are incredibly social creatures.
and co
our lit end or family unit, like we all want to be part of something
people
have to between, I have the habits that I want, but I’m ostracized,
, you k st out.
at I do lly love, but I fit in.



the des belong will overpower the desire to improve.
for the un, the only answer is you have to get those two things

ybe you o, you know, the harsh ways are like, fire your friends
see so again or whatever.


that?

ah, you o get new friends or whatever.
eed to extreme about it.
you ne space that is conducive to the habit you’re trying to

people ve no interest in yoga, but you want to get into it, fine.
o it at r in your apartment.
a studi n hour, and that’s a space that’s conducive to the habit
nded by who are doing it.
the re hline, the real takeaway, is you want to join groups where
or is t al behavior.
ired be is normal, now you can rise together, right?
behavi that group.
spaces dy-made.
f yoga .
nd one.
need t e one to create the space.
career ‘t really have anybody in my family who was an entrepreneur.
y who’s hor.
ght, I start this thing, but I don’t really know who to look

ng out nch of different authors and stuff, cold email people.
led abo people in the first six months.
em got h and were like, yeah, I’ll chat with you for 30 minutes

ple.
a confe nd there were like maybe 10 of those people there.
me peop erson.
six mo , I know a couple people now.
hosting retreats where I would get six or eight authors together.
y, let’ the cost of an Airbnb, get together for two or three

t how t books and launch books and build an audience and grow
ll the hat, you know, nonfiction authors are focused on.
lways l of the best weekends of my year.
ied tha going to invite people and then look like a dork and
e, no, want to come, you know, and whatever.
s said
erybody the same thing.
ll wait somebody to get like-minded people together, uh, where
and be people who are wrestling with the same problems.
pace th ready-made, but it really helped a lot of my writing and
we wan ll them that.
lped my in that area.
about j groups or creating groups where your desired behavior

f creat ups if they’re not available to you.
g had t ainst the grain of my environment many times,
r the t at you’re doing alone is a positive one, like exercise or
, chanc people are going to be seeking you out at some point in
how you ed that thing almost always, but it’s hard to go at things
or eve st be part of a new community, like where you don’t really
ll, or ow them online and things like that.
ourage to build what might not be there because, um, yeah, provided

will, a say, you know, like others will join you.

coming d is when I was in my scientific career, I’d go to these,
ally pe uld sit all day, eat all day and drink all night, basically,

healthy
s like, ys feel like garbage at these things.
know wh
kip a c f sessions.
that go
, they ive good talks and, um, and, or maybe they do, I’m willing
go get out in.
ever r a colleague in the gym.
l, it’s f like this thing, like, oh, you, you do this too.
I won’ ho this is, but he’s a super successful scientist
Nationa my and all this stuff.
eah, if I just sit all day, there’s no way I can pay attention.
ear an he other.
of the just aren’t really that good.
a, like as the validation I needed.
oing it , but I felt like maybe there was something wrong with me.
hings h nged.
ists ar raged to take good care of their bodies too,
to the stereotype.
eting, supposed to be at the meeting.
ot supp spend the whole time like exercising and hanging out,
e peopl miss happy hour.
o hangi at the bar.
ch cold tuff.
uting n .
feel li age.
, like so many things that happen in the,
contex limit performance.
k peopl uch healthier.
communi ange and, but it requires some people breaking out
ies.

fan of u’re saying.
n long example, but it hits home because I think that, you know,
carry t ff forward, which raises a question.
t guy.
magine me of the practicality and, um, just like good, uh, practices
.
with m otypes about like the Midwest.



cency t e in the Midwest.
there’s ombination of like Scandinavian influence.
e of th as were ag areas before.
cities, rse, in the Midwest too, but, um, to what extent did
mily wh ple cared about habits and self-care or are you the, uh,
t?
in Ohi

my whol
e.
u know, ve traveled a lot and been over 40 countries and, you know,
orld an his stuff.
love it and I still, I still live there.
his to the other day.
l like ing that I teach through Atomic Habits and the writing
e teach t my parents taught me, uh, but to the public.
e to ap e it more and more as I’ve gotten older.
really rents.
got ver .
hat was t was a huge one.
ssional ll.
nor lea r the St. Louis Cardinals.
long ca the insurance industry.
rse for rst career and then my sister got leukemia when she was three.
e off t th her while she was recovering.
d like s later, a second act as a, um, assistant in a preschool
that we needs, like autism and things like that.
n’t kno
y both bits that they’re quite good at even now.
they bo to swim.
up and o swim at, you know, five or 6 a.m.
s.
arly.
uh, th up early and they go swim and, uh, they’re very diligent
it.
picked gs from each of them.
ype of that it’s, she really sticks with things.
ry hard r to start a book and then quit it.
r want a book.
to quit ooks, but she would, you know, she wants to see it through.
driven petitive, but also like very outgoing and warm and, um,
to.
on’t kn
things oth of them.
erson t lly did shape some of my early habits is my grandpa.
ink les him in terms of being diligent with habits.
it in t mindset.
as alwa positive mental attitude is what he said.
what I teach my kids now or the outlook that I try to have is
ow, it’ going into each day and trying to emphasize the good things
appen a ng to focus on and emphasize the, you know, the good things
r that ing to do.
ys be h s that come up.
not to, ld onto those too much.
of wary body whose primary mode of operation is to be like a martyr.
t’s a d type of person to be around.
s alway e are always things that are not going to go well.
t mean ave to be the ones that we live by each day.
t of my t came from him, but the three of them definitely played
proach.
ing to, opt habits based on the things you’ve taught them?
‘re tea hem things.
of thos er.
hose th arting to emerge reflexively?
ll very
sting h it happens.
s that d so far.
e alway ing them.
g befor ven think you’re teaching.
months they’ll say their first word, right?
m how t
like to est, um, reading to her from the very start, we, we read more
ext two based on time.
edible ary very early on.
cause w to her so much.
day.
esting.
ing.
plies t s.
o every
se it w every moment has a stimulus and that stimulus is always

aping y erms of what you’re receiving or did the inputs that you’re

also a us.
with t one time who’s like a movement specialist and he spent
tting c gged in the chair in like perfect upright posture.
eaway a at dinner, I was talking to him about it cause it’s such
e way t dinner with somebody is he was basically like, everything

o I’m r w, you are not in the gym, but you are training your body
and how u know, what your posture looks like and how to respond

his wh like that.
like o ing workout session.
could y live that way, but I do think that it’s a very interesting
ense.
l the t hat your body’s experiencing impact you, um, both physically

ne take
takeaw for, um, my kids and how habits are kind of, uh, I’m
onal li is so much of it is about putting them in good positions.
ng that can learn from.
ndition ight, then the habits form easily.
a lot , one of the more important questions to ask is, am I
ions fo ss?
u an ex hat I applied to my personal life.
rcise h good workout and training program for the last 20 years

having rst kid, I did a really good job.
ery goo when our second was born.
ar that st tough.
, you k ttle babies and it got harder.
to hav rd and I could just see that like, this was my time is getting

ke runa ight train.
a hold .
f deman ime.
a trai , to start right around when our third was born.
thing hat is that, um, I don’t miss workouts anymore.
, the w are good.
not, it anything about like, um, quality or anything like that,
ss.
because howing up, everybody in the house respects it.
is, ha ppen at this time.
ming in
m getti s on the surface, it looks like, oh, you’re having a problem with

se, lik can we fix the workout problem?
the pro
me doin orkout.
eeded t e the conditions for a workout to happen.
create ditions for success.
suddenl thing else fell into place.
took th seriously and try to apply it to whatever was important
you wa rite a book.
g the o conditions for writing to happen?
e more.
g the c ns for a meditation session to be seamless and easy?
ou can stuff, the much more likely the habits are to occur.

g us a , a bit of what your family landscape looks like.
I thin people will look to their parents and their upbringing
they h pretty bad habits and probably some good ones too, hopefully.
ave any ection, it’s an opportunity to build out that story starting now.
a lot.
s you t this that much of what I think about when I think about my parents
s the h hey had.
after d ith my mom.
would d think, and he’s a scientist, so, and he was a theorist,
k done lking and thinking.


ce, as y, right?
from wh derstand.
an exp alist.
my han
my mom hat my sister did, like, that’s a lot of the tapestry of my memories.
bits pe re playing a much bigger role in our lives than just these things that we’re trying to, like, build or overcome or break.
e a lot bedrock of what we call life, right?
us part lives.
abits t es and the role of those play, which are critical.
ts are ry point or, like, the entrance ramp to so much of the conscious time or the other things that we do.
bit, yo pull your phone out, and then the next 30 minutes are you doing things on your phone.
d by th ial reflex of pulling the phone out.
, habit ot only impacting our lives for the actual actions that they are, but also the actions that unfold as a natural consequence of doing those things.
e effec
made ab king at your parents’ habits and inheriting maybe some of those and how those shape our lives.
the odd the first way that you learned to do something was the best way?
you kn
ed abou ple ways to define a habit.
potenti fine it is that habits, I think this comes from Jason Rea, who’s a behavioral scientist.
are so to the recurring problems in our environment.
et done long day of work.
re kind austed.
you kn quently.
rring p that you face.
at prob
lve it g for a run for 30 minutes.
t solve playing video games for 30 minutes.
t solve smoking a cigarette.
re’s a m of whether these are healthy and productive or less healthy and less productive.
ying to that same core problem.
s that, ow, you get to be 20 or 25 or 28.
lutions ou have to these recurring problems that you face are solutions that you inherited or that you saw modeled by your parents or your friends or just, you know, whatever you have interfaced with throughout your short life so far.
that w to eventually have is that it is as soon as you realize that your solutions may not be the best solution, it’s now your responsibility to try to figure out a different way to do it.
is the when you start to take ownership over your habits and see, okay, it’s fine.
ke, ber elf for doing things this way.
hat I w sed to.
ly a be y to do it.
to wre th that and try to figure out what are some different solutions that would solve that same problem that I keep facing.
health more productive or a more beneficial way to do it.

you so r coming here and teaching us more about habit formation, habit breaking, and also for being willing to explore some of the neurosciency spaces that I rolled out onto the table.
it.
he book the work you’re doing.
for us u’re most excited about now.

f they already read Atomic Habits, they absolutely should and incorporate the tools.
to now

t a lot ngs.
the op ty.

u’re lo or more on all this, what else can I do to make habits easier, obvious, and so on.
ou know ull guide there.
ic Habi book that we’re coming out with.
u opera ze some of the things.
ndersta ideas in the book.
o my ac fe?
an fill e exercises there.
e have ic Habits daily calendar.
lly thi know, but it’s a page a day.
en usin my own.
out yet

ery hum t needing to be reminded.
have a a simple daily reminder.
mindse as, little reminders about how to build habits and just one each day.
ng nice having it there.
dly, I’ lly excited about this daily calendar.

is rea ful.
.
n eight half by 11 divided.
ystem t ot important right now.
r day t awesome.
of work
a, it’ tle calendar that’s spiral bound and you just, you know, you can flip one day to the next.
had thi ago.
I could ike a peak performance coach?
s they lled me each morning at like 8 a.m.
e like thing, but just like five minutes, you know, and just like prime me for the day.
the day m like in the right frame of mind.
r is my t to kind of do that where it’s like, all you need is just read this one page and then like go into your day.
Atomic daily calendar.
that?
ouple m



abits i aven’t already, folks, and definitely check out the workbook.
e calen the workbook.
ate thi
two se things.
g to do
that.
all pr beforehand.
I want n.
ave dec its, but it can always be better.
or comi and sharing all this knowledge.
tools eal framework to work with those tools.
thinki t about context and environment and especially about that thoughts are downstream of inputs and really thinking hard about the inputs.
inputs because there’s some great quality inputs out there and there’s some less quality inputs.
a high input.
the hi ity input for everyone and come back again.


ng me f y’s discussion with James Clear.
his wo to find a link to his spectacular book, Atomic Habits, please see the link in the show note captions.
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