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  • 630. On Broadway, Nobody Knows Nothing

    AI transcript
    0:00:09 The people who make theater exist in a sort of parallel universe.
    0:00:12 From inside this universe, it can seem vast.
    0:00:18 There are so many projects, the work itself is so immersive, and let’s be honest, there
    0:00:20 is a lot of gossip to keep up with.
    0:00:27 But in reality, theater is a tiny universe when you compare it to all the other flashier
    0:00:32 forms of entertainment, like TV and film, live music and sports, video gaming.
    0:00:36 The theater universe looks like a distant and dimming star.
    0:00:41 And yet, believers still believe.
    0:00:49 And every now and then, someone takes a shot that is so unlikely, so audacious, and if that
    0:00:55 shot lands, it rejuvenates the whole enterprise and makes the larger world take notice.
    0:01:01 In other words, this tiny universe really can produce one singular sensation.
    0:01:04 And I’ll start from a personal note.
    0:01:16 My son had been on vacation, and he came back, and we’re 15 blocks apart, so he usually comes
    0:01:17 for breakfast.
    0:01:21 And says, well, my next show, it’s Hamilton.
    0:01:30 And I’m like, the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America?
    0:01:37 He’s like, yes, I just read this amazing, and as I’m reading it…
    0:01:40 This is the Ron Chernow biography of Hamilton, correct?
    0:01:40 Of Hamilton, correct.
    0:01:43 He’s telling the story to my wife and I.
    0:01:51 I see hip-hop singers jumping off the pages in my head.
    0:01:54 I’m like, he went f***ing crazy.
    0:02:27 Hamilton wound up becoming one of the most compelling successes in any form of entertainment at any time in history.
    0:02:36 It made the dimming, distant star of Broadway shine very bright, and it gave Luis Miranda a new full-time job.
    0:02:41 I do all of the philanthropy for the Miranda family.
    0:02:52 I oversee all of Lin-Manuel’s companies and argue with him about what he should or should not do.
    0:02:53 It usually ignores me.
    0:02:58 Everyone knows that Lin-Manuel Miranda became a major player because of Hamilton.
    0:03:01 But his father was the original player.
    0:03:09 He’s a longtime political operative and activist in New York City who has worked with mayors, senators, and many others.
    0:03:15 The theater of politics and the theater on a stage are very, very similar.
    0:03:23 Lin-Manuel says all the time that I go through the world collecting money for candidates,
    0:03:26 and probably half of them never have a chance.
    0:03:29 But they’re fights that you must fight.
    0:03:31 Theater is a bit the same way.
    0:03:35 You go and collect lots of money and most of the shows don’t make it.
    0:03:38 The same way that many candidates won’t make it.
    0:03:42 But there’s art that needs to be made.
    0:03:43 Some shows.
    0:03:46 I always wonder, why did they do that?
    0:03:49 But hey, someone had a dream.
    0:03:53 Luis Miranda himself had a dream for his son.
    0:03:59 I wanted him to be president of the United States, the first Puerto Rican president of the United States of America.
    0:04:02 And I know he could have done it.
    0:04:05 He is so good at it.
    0:04:08 I see him meeting with elected officials.
    0:04:10 He’s so charming.
    0:04:14 But faithful to his beliefs.
    0:04:18 You’re not going to convince him to say something he doesn’t believe in.
    0:04:21 But Lin-Manuel wanted to do something different.
    0:04:25 When he was an undergrad at Wesleyan, he started writing a musical called In the Heights,
    0:04:30 a boisterous story about the spirit of community set in Washington Heights,
    0:04:33 a New York neighborhood close to where the Mirandas lived.
    0:04:38 Lin-Manuel and his friends, all very arrogant young people,
    0:04:44 they needed money to hire the actors and really further develop.
    0:04:46 I asked, how much do you need?
    0:04:48 And he said, $40,000.
    0:04:50 I’m like, no, he’s going to give you $40,000.
    0:04:54 This is 2005, 2006.
    0:04:57 I said, but I know what I’ll do.
    0:05:03 I’ll ask my friend, who’s the artistic director of Repertorio Español, Spanish repertoire,
    0:05:05 to lend me the theater.
    0:05:07 You guys do a reading.
    0:05:12 We’ll invite people and we’ll ask them $1,000 a pop.
    0:05:13 A backers audition, this is.
    0:05:14 Correct.
    0:05:18 Friends coming together because you’re telling them that your kid is good.
    0:05:25 In the Heights eventually made it to Broadway, where it won four Tony Awards and ran for nearly three years.
    0:05:30 Not long after that came Hamilton, which turned out to be a billion-dollar franchise.
    0:05:33 There’s an old cliche about Broadway.
    0:05:36 You can make a killing, but not a living.
    0:05:43 There is an occasional smash hit like Hamilton, but much more common are the failures and the flops,
    0:05:49 which don’t cost any less to produce than the hits and leave behind a trail of regret.
    0:05:56 And yet there is no shortage of producers, investors, writers, and composers willing to give it a try.
    0:05:57 Why?
    0:06:02 Because almost no one gets into the theater just to have a career.
    0:06:05 Like I said, the believers believe.
    0:06:09 I believe that producing more art makes a society healthier.
    0:06:10 Do you have evidence?
    0:06:11 Yes.
    0:06:22 I’m a poor kid from a small town in Puerto Rico that somehow felt that musicals were fantastic.
    0:06:26 I didn’t know what they were singing.
    0:06:34 Do you understand that I’m listening to s**t and I have no clue what they are singing?
    0:06:43 But there was something attractive, magnetic, magical about the form.
    0:06:53 Arts can create wealth, but it speaks to a different part of who we are as humans and as a society.
    0:06:58 Luis Miranda recently published a memoir about his work in politics and beyond.
    0:06:59 It’s called Relentless.
    0:07:04 As nice as I seem, he writes, I was and continue to be relentless.
    0:07:06 I don’t back down.
    0:07:11 I try to work with people, but if I can’t, I throw an elbow and see where it lands.
    0:07:18 Today on Freakonomics Radio, part two of our three-part series on the economics of the theater industry.
    0:07:23 Last week, we started following a musical called Three Summers of Lincoln as it was being built from scratch.
    0:07:25 We will get back to that story later.
    0:07:29 But today’s episode is mostly about something else.
    0:07:33 Today’s episode is about how to be relentless.
    0:07:52 This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.
    0:08:03 Someone took a chance, only Manuel.
    0:08:08 And for me, you never finish paying for that.
    0:08:10 Who was it that took a chance on him?
    0:08:11 Jeffrey Seller.
    0:08:14 Good afternoon.
    0:08:16 Jeffrey Seller here.
    0:08:20 I am the producer of Hamilton on Broadway and all over the world.
    0:08:24 When Seller and I spoke, he had two shows running on Broadway.
    0:08:27 Hamilton, which is about to celebrate its 10th season.
    0:08:30 And a revival of Stephen Sondheim’s Sweeney Todd.
    0:08:33 His past credits include Rent and Avenue Q.
    0:08:37 Seller is also about to publish a memoir called Theater Kid.
    0:08:41 He grew up in a chaotic working-class family in a Detroit suburb.
    0:08:44 I came to New York with my bar mitzvah money.
    0:08:49 I had maybe $1,100, $10,000 of student debt.
    0:08:52 And my first job netted me $205 a week in 1986.
    0:08:54 So I had no money.
    0:08:55 I had no family money.
    0:08:59 There was no one in my family I could ever call to say, could you put $20,000 or $10,000?
    0:09:00 I mean, that would be a joke.
    0:09:06 But Seller kept at it and defied the odds to become one of the most successful Broadway producers of his generation.
    0:09:11 We should say here that the word producer can mean a few different things in live theater.
    0:09:16 It can mean that you originate a project, whether financially, creatively, or both.
    0:09:19 That’s what Seller calls a holistic producer.
    0:09:22 Or it could mean that you are primarily just a cash contributor.
    0:09:29 Those are investors who we rely on.
    0:09:33 And by we, I mean the audience relies upon them.
    0:09:36 Us holistic producers rely upon them.
    0:09:39 Historically, they were called dilettantes.
    0:09:41 And it wasn’t necessarily a pejorative.
    0:09:46 It was just a description of an arts lover and an arts supporter.
    0:09:51 Is there a relatively infinite supply of the people formerly known as dilettantes?
    0:09:59 There is an interesting pattern, which is that by the late 70s and the 80s, there were very few investors on Broadway.
    0:10:17 If you look back to the 1980s, if you remove the four British mega hits, Cats, Les Mis, Phantom, and Miss Saigon, all produced by Cameron Mackintosh, we had very little musical theater or legitimate play theater going on on Broadway.
    0:10:20 People with money had not yet discovered Broadway.
    0:10:24 Maybe they discovered the world of visual art first.
    0:10:32 But a lot of people with money started to discover Broadway, enjoy going to Broadway, and enjoy investing in Broadway.
    0:10:39 We are producing more musicals every year as a result of that activity.
    0:10:49 What Jeffrey Seller didn’t say there was that a modern Broadway producer needs all those outside investors because it has become so much more expensive to create and run a show.
    0:10:51 We’ll get into that as we go.
    0:10:56 I asked Seller to tell me how he came to take a chance on Lin-Manuel Miranda.
    0:11:04 Lin and his colleagues, Tommy Kail, who’s his director, they walked in my office in the summer of 2003.
    0:11:06 None of them were 30.
    0:11:08 They weren’t even close to 30.
    0:11:13 They were courageous and adorable and fun.
    0:11:22 And the next thing I did is I went and watched them do Freestyle Love Supreme, their hip-hop improvisation show.
    0:11:24 Your last word is fracking.
    0:11:25 The last word is fracking.
    0:11:29 And I am attacking this beat because it’s sweet to be back on this street Broadway.
    0:11:32 Ever since I was a little kid, this was my only dream.
    0:11:34 The only shit I ever wanted to did.
    0:11:35 Or do I mean do?
    0:11:35 I don’t know.
    0:11:36 I like it.
    0:11:38 Jesus, guys, I am so fracking excited.
    0:11:43 And I thought, oh, Lin is a genius.
    0:11:47 How is he making these raps up on his feet?
    0:11:51 So I knew I was in the presence of sheer brilliance.
    0:11:59 When I experience a new musical, I want the music to prick my ear in a different way.
    0:12:05 And we created a reading of In the Heights with a small band.
    0:12:07 And this was my first experience of it.
    0:12:16 When Lin came out and started that warm, enveloping rap, lights up on Washington Heights up at the break of day.
    0:12:19 Lights up on Washington Heights up at the break of day.
    0:12:22 I wake up and I got this little punk I gotta chase away.
    0:12:24 Pop the grade at the crack of dawn.
    0:12:26 Sing while I wipe down the awning.
    0:12:27 Hey, y’all, good morning.
    0:12:32 And then this gorgeous chorus joined behind him singing In the Heights.
    0:12:55 I thought, I’ve never heard rap and Broadway choral music married together so beautifully.
    0:12:59 It made the hair on my arm stand up.
    0:13:00 And I was in.
    0:13:10 So Jeffrey Seller produced In the Heights on Broadway, where Lin-Manuel Miranda announced himself as a rare double threat, a theatrical writer who starred in his own shows.
    0:13:16 And while performing In the Heights, eight shows a week, he began developing Hamilton.
    0:13:19 Seller first read the Hamilton script in 2014.
    0:13:23 I’m an atheist, but it felt like there was divine intervention.
    0:13:29 I mean, if God was over Michelangelo’s shoulders, then he was over Lin’s shoulders as well.
    0:13:41 Hamilton had its opening run at the nonprofit Public Theater, a downtown institution known for producing Shakespeare in the Park and for having originated a number of Broadway hits, including a chorus line.
    0:13:50 After a few months at the public, Hamilton moved uptown to Broadway and quickly became a monster hit, with premium tickets selling for over $1,000.
    0:13:55 And the world’s gonna know your name, what’s your name, man?
    0:13:56 Alexander Hamilton.
    0:14:00 My name is Alexander Hamilton.
    0:14:04 And there’s a million things I haven’t done.
    0:14:09 But just you wait, just you wait.
    0:14:13 Today, Hamilton tickets go for an average of around $190.
    0:14:18 And what about the other show that Jeffrey Seller had on Broadway when we spoke?
    0:14:22 A full price ticket, Sweeney Todd, $229.
    0:14:22 Okay.
    0:14:24 So of all…
    0:14:24 Why?
    0:14:27 Why does that ticket have to be $229?
    0:14:28 Correct.
    0:14:34 Because I employ, to do that show, every night, almost 100 people.
    0:14:41 The good news is that every single one of those people is making well over $2,000 a week.
    0:14:51 And because they have a great union, they are making benefits that drive their salary closer to $3,000 a week.
    0:14:56 And as a producer, not as a human, but as a producer, how do you feel about that?
    0:15:04 I am concerned today that we’re losing the ability to hit, in baseball terms, a double.
    0:15:10 When I did Avenue Q, the show cost $3.5 million to put on Broadway.
    0:15:13 Same capitalization as Rent did six years before that.
    0:15:20 We could operate the show, that means how much it costs every single week to run, for about $325,000.
    0:15:25 So if we were grossing $500,000 a week, we were making a nice little profit.
    0:15:31 And by the way, Avenue Q won the Tony, ran on Broadway for six years, and was what I call a solid double.
    0:15:37 Same exact formula for In the Heights, which came five years after that.
    0:15:44 However, it was more expensive, there were 30 people on stage, more musicians, more scenery, more costumes.
    0:15:54 But it still was able to break even on Broadway every week for only $450,000, which means that if I’m grossing $700 a week, I’m still making a little profit.
    0:16:02 Today, shows like Avenue Q, or In the Heights, are costing $10,000, $12 million.
    0:16:06 That’s more money I have to earn back.
    0:16:17 And the operating costs, instead of being $300,000, $400,000, $500,000, are $700,000, $800,000, in my case for Sweeney Todd, over $900,000.
    0:16:21 And that massive inflation is being driven primarily by what?
    0:16:36 It’s being driven by higher labor costs, higher rental costs for equipment, higher production costs for building sets, higher production costs for building costumes, higher rent from the landlords.
    0:16:44 It is also true that there is nothing I can do to become more efficient.
    0:16:49 I need those 26 to 35 actors.
    0:16:51 I cannot do it with less.
    0:16:56 In the case of Sweeney Todd, I need those 26 musicians.
    0:16:58 That’s what I signed up for.
    0:16:59 That’s what it takes.
    0:17:12 Okay, if we’re talking production costs and efficiency and inflation, it’s probably time to bring in an economist.
    0:17:13 I’m Michael Rushton.
    0:17:21 I’m a professor in the O’Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs at Indiana University, and I teach in our arts administration program.
    0:17:26 How would you describe the major areas of your research and interest?
    0:17:35 I’m one of that small group of people known as cultural economists who apply economic methods to looking at the arts and different issues in the arts.
    0:17:40 I have to say, you are a small group, because even you weren’t easy for us to find.
    0:17:40 Yes.
    0:17:45 So why are you trafficking in this area that seemingly few people care about?
    0:17:58 What I have found is that many of the cultural economists began their careers, like I did, being an ordinary mainstream muggle economist, studying public finance and labor economics and so on.
    0:18:01 And then you discover, oh, there’s a group that does this.
    0:18:08 And actually, the questions are really interesting around the film industry, performing arts and paintings and auctions.
    0:18:16 This has been an active field, I would say, since the 1960s, when William Bommel and William Bowen first came up with their theory of cost disease.
    0:18:31 Okay, we need to slow down here for a second, because this theory that Rushton just mentioned, cost disease, can explain a lot about the theater industry and some other much larger industries.
    0:18:36 The theory is famous among economists, but not as widely known as it ought to be.
    0:18:44 The original paper by Bommel and Bowen was called On the Performing Arts, the Anatomy of Their Economic Problems.
    0:18:56 Their insight was regarding technical change, and in particular, in what sectors can you have labor-saving technological change, and in what sectors is that going to be very difficult to achieve?
    0:19:04 When they looked at the live performing arts, they said, well, here is an area where labor-saving technological change is going to be really rare.
    0:19:07 You can’t reduce the number of players in your orchestra.
    0:19:11 You can’t reduce the number of casts you need to put on a performance of Macbeth.
    0:19:20 And wages have to rise with the rest of the economy, which means constantly your costs are going to be rising.
    0:19:22 And in theaters right now, we see that.
    0:19:30 If you speak to any theater producer who is saying, well, we’re struggling to get by, one of the first things they say is, our costs keep going up.
    0:19:33 And the main cost that they face is labor.
    0:19:34 You have to pay your performers.
    0:19:35 You’ve got to pay your crew.
    0:19:37 You’ve got to pay your back office staff.
    0:19:42 And it’s just really hard to save on those kinds of numbers.
    0:19:44 So here’s their foundational paper.
    0:19:47 This is from the American Economic Review of 1965.
    0:20:00 They wrote, in order to join the ranks of the rising productivity industries, the arts would somehow have to learn not only to increase output per man hour, but to continue to do so into the indefinite future.
    0:20:14 Otherwise, they must at some juncture fall behind the technologically progressive industries and experience increases in costs which stem not from their own decisions, but from the inexorable march of technological change in other parts of the economy.
    0:20:18 On a scale of 0 to 10, how true did that prediction become?
    0:20:19 10 out of 10.
    0:20:27 We see the pressures of cost disease in all of the sectors that Bommel and Bowen mentioned where you can’t really save on labor.
    0:20:29 Education would be one example.
    0:20:38 A teacher can only handle so many students at a time, and teachers’ wages have to rise with the rest of the economy, or nobody’s going to want to be a teacher anymore.
    0:20:44 Healthcare is another example, and it’s an interesting one because we think, well, there’s been lots of technological change in healthcare.
    0:20:45 We have all these machines now.
    0:20:47 We have all these new pharmaceuticals.
    0:20:48 That’s very, very true.
    0:20:54 But a large part of your healthcare costs are labor, paying nurses, paying technicians.
    0:21:00 You can’t just say, well, one nurse can handle 200 patients at once now because of technological change.
    0:21:04 So I don’t mean to insult your profession, but here’s a question.
    0:21:13 This was a paper written, you know, nearly 60 years ago that laid out exactly the problem that we’re seeing not only in theater and the other performing arts,
    0:21:17 but in, as you said, healthcare and education, which are much, much bigger sectors.
    0:21:27 It strikes me that a lot of people are still flabbergasted that costs in things like education and healthcare have risen so much relative to other things.
    0:21:35 In other words, Bommel’s cost disease has been around and understood and preached by economists for nearly 60 years,
    0:21:39 but it seems that no solution has arisen to actually combat the problem.
    0:21:41 Why do you think that is?
    0:21:44 Is that a failure of economists to communicate the problem?
    0:21:48 Is it a failure of economists and others to come up with viable solutions?
    0:21:50 Is it a failure of policymakers?
    0:21:56 Or is this just the way things are and humankind has to figure out different ways to do things?
    0:21:59 I think there is a communication issue.
    0:22:02 The first thing is actually calling it cost disease.
    0:22:04 What is it resulting from?
    0:22:06 It’s resulting from our getting richer.
    0:22:14 You only have cost disease because the economy as a whole is becoming more productive and real incomes are rising.
    0:22:18 So that seems like an odd disease where you say, yes, we’re all getting richer.
    0:22:24 What cost disease is referring to is that productivity changes are going to be different across sectors.
    0:22:28 Over time, manufactured goods have become far, far cheaper.
    0:22:30 Raw food production has become cheaper.
    0:22:32 Transportation has become cheaper.
    0:22:37 Other things that involve personal services are going to get more expensive.
    0:22:42 Haircuts, teaching, massages, live theater.
    0:22:50 Agatha Christie famously remarked that when she was young, she never thought she would be so rich as to be able to own her own motor car
    0:22:52 and so poor that she wouldn’t be able to have servants.
    0:23:07 So, Michael, I guess if you wanted to put a positive spin on this, you could say that we as an economy, as a culture, as a civilization are rich enough to spend an ever larger portion of our income on important things like education and health care.
    0:23:22 Yes, we are getting richer and we have more income to be able to spend on education, health care, personal services and the arts because other things in our economy have become so much cheaper.
    0:23:32 Once you know how cost disease works, you see it in a variety of places, including Hollywood.
    0:23:38 The economics of the movie industry is easily as weird and interesting as the economics of live theater.
    0:23:40 Maybe we’ll do a series on that someday.
    0:23:50 It used to be that successful films would generate a lot of money for their creators, but that is no longer necessarily the case, especially for independent filmmakers.
    0:23:55 Two of the most acclaimed films from last year were Anora and The Brutalist.
    0:24:04 The filmmakers behind them, Sean Baker and Brady Corbett, have both described how the costs of making the film were so extreme that they were barely able to pay themselves.
    0:24:09 So, what do you do if you are making theater and losing money?
    0:24:12 Here’s the producer Jeffrey Seller again.
    0:24:13 I have two choices.
    0:24:17 Close my show or put more money in the bank so I can finance the losses every week.
    0:24:22 So, now you’ve just gotten to the second most important decision a producer has to make.
    0:24:24 After, what show will I do?
    0:24:25 When do I close?
    0:24:34 When the amount of money I bring in every week is less than the amount of money I need to operate my business, I close.
    0:24:36 What happened with Funny Girl?
    0:24:37 Can you explain that?
    0:24:45 Where it looked like it was destined for an early and huge loss and then it ended up recouping like the week before it closed.
    0:24:45 What happened?
    0:24:57 Well, what happened is that a young, talented star named Lea Michele came and completely 180 degrees turned that show around.
    0:24:59 Now, why would it then not extend?
    0:25:01 Was the theater already spoken for?
    0:25:11 I think they had her for a year and stars like Lea Michele or Josh Groban, to get them to come to Broadway for a year is a wonderful thing.
    0:25:16 And it’s very rare that you would get someone of that caliber to extend.
    0:25:21 Many stars, when they come to Broadway to do a play, will come to do like a 12-week run and they’re gone.
    0:25:26 Asking a star to play 52 weeks is an enormous lift.
    0:25:39 And only special stars who love musicals, Hugh Jackman, Lea Michele, Josh Groban, are willing to do that because of their deep love for the form.
    0:25:51 Coming up after the break, yes, paying all those performers and backstage personnel is a huge cost center for a theatrical producer.
    0:25:54 But you also have to rent a theater.
    0:25:57 And the economics of that are particularly tricky.
    0:26:00 There’s only so many blocks that make up Broadway.
    0:26:20 As we started putting together this series on the economics of live theater, we spoke with all sorts of people.
    0:26:24 Producers, writers, performers, economists, historians.
    0:26:28 There are a lot of people in this ecosystem, and we wanted to hear from all of them.
    0:26:32 But there was one group of people that would not speak.
    0:26:34 The big theater owners, the landlords.
    0:26:39 They are the ones who own the buildings and decide which shows are coming in.
    0:26:43 They employ ticket takers and ushers, bartenders and security guards.
    0:26:48 The landlords are thought of as members of the Broadway community.
    0:26:53 But that’s a bit like saying that the royal family are members of the British community.
    0:26:58 Their position comes with a guaranteed level of wealth and leverage.
    0:27:02 There’s only so many blocks that make up Broadway, per se, and there’s only so much land.
    0:27:07 Like Will Rogers said, buy land because they’re not making any more of it.
    0:27:11 My name is Hal Luftig, and I’m a Broadway producer.
    0:27:23 Some of my credits include Here Lies Love, The Life of Pi, Legally Blonde, The Revival of Evita, Thoroughly Modern Millie, Kinky Boots.
    0:27:24 And it goes on.
    0:27:27 I’ve been doing this for 30-something years.
    0:27:34 To this day, I still get excited like a little butterfly effect in my stomach when I walk into a theater.
    0:27:42 The smell of it, the dink of it, being walked to your seat, getting a hand in a playbill, sitting there knowing the curtain’s going to go up.
    0:27:51 And you, with all the people sitting around you, are going to be, you know, watching and laughing or crying at the same thing.
    0:27:55 There are 41 theaters in New York that qualify as Broadway houses.
    0:28:07 33 of them are owned or operated by one of three groups, the Schubert Organization, the Nederlander Organization, and ATG Entertainment, formerly known as the Ambassador Theater Group.
    0:28:11 The Schubert’s and Nederlanders have been around for generations.
    0:28:17 ATG is a British newcomer that is majority owned by a Rhode Island private equity firm.
    0:28:20 All of them declined our interview requests.
    0:28:23 I mentioned this to Hal Luftig.
    0:28:27 The landlords don’t want to talk.
    0:28:30 The theater owners have no interest in talking.
    0:28:34 Schubert, Nederlander, Disney, ATG, none of them want to talk.
    0:28:36 Gee, I wonder why that is.
    0:28:38 Maybe you can tell me.
    0:28:39 I don’t know why.
    0:28:41 Oh, yes, I will.
    0:28:42 All right, tell me.
    0:28:48 Theater owners now are a very big profit participant.
    0:28:51 And by profit, I don’t mean after the show makes money.
    0:28:53 First, they get all of their expenses.
    0:29:00 It’s called weekly rental, and that includes everything from payroll to toilet paper.
    0:29:07 On top of that, they get a weekly royalty, which could be 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%.
    0:29:10 It depends on the theater, the theater owner, the show.
    0:29:15 If the show is doing well, like a million dollars a week, do the math.
    0:29:18 So that is a chunk right there.
    0:29:25 And their costs have gone up, insurance, mortgage payments, interest rates, things like that.
    0:29:28 So they pass that right on to the show.
    0:29:32 That has changed over the years.
    0:29:33 How did it used to be?
    0:29:35 It used to be you paid a rent.
    0:29:38 There wasn’t really a royalty attached to it.
    0:29:47 It was in the 70s, 80s, where they realized they could make a whole lot more money.
    0:29:54 They also realized, why don’t you bump the tickets up $2 here and then $5 there?
    0:29:56 This is all before dynamic pricing.
    0:30:01 This was just, hey, if the show is successful, why sell a ticket for $25?
    0:30:02 That’s how far back we’re going.
    0:30:05 Liza Minnelli in the act was $25.
    0:30:08 And people were outraged, Stephen.
    0:30:12 I remember people thinking, what the hell, $25?
    0:30:19 When it opened and became sort of a hit, they bumped it up to $27.50.
    0:30:26 You shared in some of that, sure, as the show, but they got the lion’s share because of their royalty.
    0:30:30 So that’s how theater owners kind of work.
    0:30:34 I mean, it sounds like what most economists would think of as a monopoly.
    0:30:42 They have pretty total control over a limited capacity of places where people like you can do your work.
    0:30:43 Is that the way it seems from your end?
    0:30:45 Yes, it totally does.
    0:30:50 But they would say, and there’s part of me that does understand this,
    0:30:57 that when a theater is dark, they’re receiving no income and they do have all of these bills to pay.
    0:31:02 You know, if a show is in trouble, they’ll reduce the rent or they’ll waive the fee.
    0:31:04 So, yeah, they do help.
    0:31:12 Of the three major Broadway landlords, ATG is both the newest and the smallest.
    0:31:17 They bought out a firm called Jujamsen, which had been run for years by Rocco Landisman.
    0:31:20 He’s one of the producers we heard from in part one of this series.
    0:31:26 You will remember he got his start by producing a musical called Big River, the adventures of Huckleberry Finn.
    0:31:33 I asked him what it was like to compete against the bigger and more established landlords, the Schuberts and the Nederlanders.
    0:31:41 We had to find some way to make a name for ourselves, a way to get recognized, because we were the third wheel there.
    0:31:42 We were the smallest.
    0:31:44 We didn’t have the most desirable theaters.
    0:31:50 We had to find a way to create a profile for ourselves, a way to be identified.
    0:31:59 One way of doing it was to do plays that maybe were more normally done in regional theaters, because they were not obvious commercial plays.
    0:32:10 Our first successful show was M. Butterfly by David Henry Wong, which you wouldn’t think of as necessarily a conventional Broadway show, but it turned out to be very successful.
    0:32:14 The big turning point for us was Angels in America.
    0:32:26 We were in a fierce competition with Schubert for that show, and we were able to convince Tony Kushner, the author, that he should go with us, that we’d be more committed to him as a playwright, to his career.
    0:32:34 I remember telling Tony that, you know, everyone wants Angels in America, but you’re going to write the next play or the one after it that’s not as commercial, but we’re going to do it.
    0:32:39 We’re going to be there for you, and we’re committing to your career, not just to the one play.
    0:32:46 A couple of years ago, Drew Jamsen was sold to ATG in a deal valuing their theaters at around $300 million.
    0:32:51 ATG is thought of as a comer, in large part because of this woman.
    0:33:00 I was headhunted to be the producer of Ambassador Theatre Group, ATG, as they were called, in 1999, 2000.
    0:33:01 I was really young.
    0:33:03 That’s Sonia Friedman.
    0:33:09 She is the most prolific theatrical producer of our generation on Broadway, in London’s West End and beyond.
    0:33:12 She’s produced more than 200 shows.
    0:33:14 She’s won dozens of awards.
    0:33:18 It was Friedman, by the way, who brought in Lea Michele to save Funny Girl.
    0:33:23 By the time ATG headhunted her, she’d already had a good bit of success.
    0:33:27 Yeah, I’d had my own theater company, and I’d done quite a lot of West End work.
    0:33:41 I left the subsidized sector, the not-for-profit, as we call it here, to see if it is possible to do the same sort of work, but make it commercially viable.
    0:33:44 I mean, if we jump to the end, you kind of have done it, have you not?
    0:33:48 I’m not going to ever think I’ve sort of cracked it, because I haven’t.
    0:33:57 I’m always chastising myself for thinking I’m not working hard enough to find the new voices and not being brave enough.
    0:34:03 I want to be as fearless as I was when I first started producing.
    0:34:05 But back to ATG.
    0:34:09 The same model, bringing the fearless model into the commercial world?
    0:34:12 Yeah, bringing the fearless, and they were absolutely fantastic.
    0:34:17 This was two people, Howard Panter and Rosemary Squire, who founded ATG.
    0:34:20 They supported me, and they let me get on with it.
    0:34:32 Over the years, ATG got bigger and bigger, and at one point, I separated from them directly and formed my company, Sonia Friedman Productions.
    0:34:34 Totally separate, or were they an investor?
    0:34:37 The official word is subsidiary.
    0:34:38 I’m a subsidiary.
    0:34:50 But in terms of the running of the company, I’m completely, 100% creatively independent and raise the vast majority of the finance myself.
    0:34:52 It’s like a first-look deal with them.
    0:34:56 I absolutely have a partnership with them, but they basically leave me alone.
    0:35:01 As an essentially independent producer, though, you have access to their real estate.
    0:35:01 Well, yes.
    0:35:04 So as I was growing up in the business, they were growing, too.
    0:35:08 When I joined them, they had two theaters, and then they were building, and they were building.
    0:35:17 By the time Howard and Rosemary left, they had pretty much an empire in London and across the regions and a few across the world.
    0:35:20 And then they sold it.
    0:35:25 So it’s still ATG that runs it, but in partnership with a private equity company.
    0:35:28 And they, as you know, they’ve just bought Ju Jamsen.
    0:35:30 Which owns five theaters in New York, I believe.
    0:35:31 That’s right.
    0:35:34 And they want to be a force for good.
    0:35:37 Not that I disbelieve you, but what makes you say a force for good?
    0:35:39 Because, you know, private equity…
    0:35:41 Because I know the people involved.
    0:35:42 And here’s the key thing.
    0:35:51 They know the only way any of their operation will work is to do with what’s on the stages.
    0:35:57 They know that what’s on the stage is the only thing that matters.
    0:36:00 And everything around it is there to support that.
    0:36:07 I think where ATG will, I really hope, make a difference is in the ticketing.
    0:36:09 That sounds really boring, doesn’t it?
    0:36:10 It does.
    0:36:11 Yes, okay.
    0:36:19 But I believe that theater is a little bit behind the times in how we find our audiences,
    0:36:23 how we talk to our audiences, the data modeling, and who our audiences are,
    0:36:28 where they’re coming from, and what they like, and how we capture their imagination.
    0:36:33 And I think ATG are very, very forward-thinking.
    0:36:42 So, Sonia Friedman professes optimism for a more corporate form of theater ownership.
    0:36:44 But not everyone feels that way.
    0:36:51 Theaters are best operated when it’s a mom-and-pop business.
    0:36:53 That, again, is the producer Jeffrey Seller.
    0:36:55 We’re not a real business.
    0:37:03 To expect a theater to have earnings growth every quarter is crazy.
    0:37:06 We go up and we go down.
    0:37:11 We have hits, but in between those hits, we have four flops in a row.
    0:37:20 One cannot guarantee shareholders or banks or whoever those people are consistent earnings.
    0:37:35 The danger is that they’re going to contribute to inflation by needing to take more of that box office pie to share with those money people.
    0:37:42 If you could wake up tomorrow and be magically turned into a landlord, a Broadway theater owner,
    0:37:52 or you could be you, which means having to reinvent the wheel every time to come up with a show that you then rent space from them to try to put on,
    0:37:58 and maybe, maybe make a bonanza the way you did with Rent and the way you did with Hamilton.
    0:38:00 Which do you choose?
    0:38:05 Oh, I choose to be a producer seven days a week, 365 days a year.
    0:38:07 I didn’t come to New York to be a landlord.
    0:38:10 I’m a poor kid from Detroit who likes musicals.
    0:38:11 I don’t like buildings.
    0:38:16 How good a business is the Broadway theater landlord business, however?
    0:38:18 I wouldn’t turn it down.
    0:38:21 It’s a fantastic business.
    0:38:25 It’s heads I win, tails you lose.
    0:38:26 Period.
    0:38:27 End of discussion.
    0:38:30 I’ll say that to their faces, and they know it.
    0:38:33 And no one’s going to say, how dare you say that, Jeffrey?
    0:38:34 They know it.
    0:38:35 I know it.
    0:38:36 We all know it.
    0:38:42 There’s one more factor that makes New York a particularly expensive place to produce theater.
    0:38:44 Labor unions.
    0:38:51 There are 13 separate unions involved in Broadway productions, with three additional contracts that govern how people are paid.
    0:38:57 Every producer I spoke with for this series named unions as a major driver of production inflation.
    0:39:01 Steve, I asked Hal Luftig for his take on the Broadway unions.
    0:39:03 Are you trying to get me killed?
    0:39:07 Steve, I will tell you this.
    0:39:20 I understand that every rule that exists in every union is there because at some point somebody tried to screw them over in that specific area.
    0:39:26 And so next time the contract was negotiated, the union said, okay, we’re going to deal with this.
    0:39:36 What’s a, for instance, what’s a way that a producer might have been either taking advantage or not looking out for the safety of someone that became codified in a union contract?
    0:39:48 For example, stage managers, you know, a producer who was not being very careful or not being very forthright might say, oh, we could do this show with two stage managers.
    0:39:52 And meanwhile, it’s the most complicated set in the world.
    0:40:03 It’s dangerous to not have enough stage managers who can watch the show and make sure everybody is where they’re supposed to, when they’re supposed to be.
    0:40:11 Things like if a trap door opens during the show, a stage manager has to say it’s okay to continue.
    0:40:14 They’re all on headsets, so the audience never hears this.
    0:40:19 To continue because the trap has been closed and the stage is now safe.
    0:40:31 Of all the potential problems faced by a Broadway producer, the most severe by far is that their show will simply be a flop.
    0:40:33 I was very devastated.
    0:40:35 I didn’t understand it.
    0:40:40 Coming up after the break, how to salvage a flop.
    0:40:46 And what do you do when the star of your brand new musical suddenly drops out?
    0:40:49 I’m Stephen Dubner.
    0:40:50 This is Freakonomics Radio.
    0:40:51 We will be right back.
    0:41:09 If you choose to produce the kind of high-stakes, high-dollar theater we’ve been talking about,
    0:41:14 you just have to deal with the vagaries and vicissitudes of the industry.
    0:41:23 A huge hit can come out of nowhere, and what looks to be like a sure thing can cave in on itself and burn $20 million.
    0:41:32 Of course, the vast majority of new shows live somewhere in the middle of these extremes, but it’s the extremes that come to define the industry.
    0:41:40 Consider one highly anticipated show from last season, a revival of The Who’s Tommy with music and lyrics by Pete Townsend.
    0:41:49 The first Broadway production, which was based on The Who’s 1969 rock opera, played for more than two years in the early 1990s.
    0:41:55 This new revival was capitalized at around $15 million, but it lasted only a few months.
    0:42:02 I don’t generally like to raise a half a million dollars and have it go down the tubes.
    0:42:04 That is Richard Winkler.
    0:42:09 He’s one of the lead producers on Three Summers of Lincoln, the new show we’re following in this series.
    0:42:13 He was also a co-producer, one of many, on The Who’s Tommy.
    0:42:19 I thought that the production was an absolutely first-class piece of musical theater.
    0:42:23 I do not understand why it did not work.
    0:42:30 I thought every single baby boomer who saw the show would want to come back and see it again.
    0:42:32 I was very devastated.
    0:42:37 I didn’t understand it, and I don’t like stuff that I don’t understand.
    0:42:39 It’s hard to predict, isn’t it?
    0:42:47 You know, there’s so much alchemy that’s involved in a successful Broadway musical or a successful Broadway play.
    0:42:50 I’m going to see O’Meary this evening.
    0:42:52 You’re going to laugh a lot.
    0:42:54 I understand I’m going to laugh a lot.
    0:42:56 Everybody tells me I’m going to laugh a lot.
    0:43:09 But who in the world would ever think that a show that opened off-Broadway with two unknowns in it would become the big Broadway sensation of the season?
    0:43:27 So what does that say about just the, I don’t want to say risk, but the unpredictability of what you do, what would seem to be the can’t-fail project, like Tommy fails on Broadway, and O’Meary, which comes from nowhere, from nobody, relatively speaking?
    0:43:29 It just proves nobody knows nothing.
    0:43:33 So that was William Goldman talking about Hollywood, but it applies here, too, I guess.
    0:43:37 Oh, it applies here, too, 100%.
    0:43:38 100%.
    0:43:45 O’Meary is an absurdist, slapsticky comedy created by Cole Escola.
    0:43:55 The New York Times called it an unhinged historical fantasia that imagines its protagonist as an alcoholic cabaret singer married to a gay guy.
    0:44:04 The protagonist, by the way, is Mary Todd Lincoln, and her husband, the gay guy in O’Meary, is Abraham Lincoln.
    0:44:17 If Three Summers of Lincoln does make it to Broadway, it’s hard to imagine there could ever be two shows on two stages about the same historical figures that bear such little resemblance to each other.
    0:44:23 O’Meary was a small and simple show to mount, capitalized at just four and a half million dollars.
    0:44:30 It was also the first show of the season to recoup its investment after just four months, and it’s still going strong.
    0:44:34 Like Richard Winkler said, nobody knows nothing.
    0:44:39 In 2007, the producer Hal Luftig opened Legally Blonde on Broadway.
    0:44:44 It was a musical adaptation of the movie starring Reese Witherspoon.
    0:44:52 It ran for a year and a half, but as Luftig told us, it made back only around 60% of its $11 million capitalization.
    0:44:58 Shows don’t work on Broadway for a whole host of reasons.
    0:45:01 It doesn’t have to be that the show is awful.
    0:45:05 You come to Broadway, let’s just say you have 30 other choices.
    0:45:13 What people choose can be a byproduct of where they are at that moment.
    0:45:15 We learned this on Legally Blonde.
    0:45:24 If you are coming into the city and you have two kids, a boy and a girl, invariably the boy said, oh, I don’t want to see that.
    0:45:26 That’s a girl’s story.
    0:45:29 So they choose another show that everyone’s happy with.
    0:45:34 There are people who feel like, I don’t need to see that on Broadway.
    0:45:35 I saw the movie.
    0:45:42 Not really comprehending that a good adaptation has its own vocabulary.
    0:45:44 It’s not just the movie on stage.
    0:45:52 If a movie is associated with a star, as was Legally Blonde with Reese Witherspoon, well, is Reese in it?
    0:45:52 No.
    0:45:54 I’ll go see something else.
    0:45:59 So what do you do with a big musical that loses millions on Broadway?
    0:46:01 You might take it on tour.
    0:46:08 Broadway may be the epicenter of live theater with the most attention and the highest ticket prices,
    0:46:12 but the theatrical touring economy is robust and global.
    0:46:17 After The Who’s Tommy lost its $15 million Broadway investment,
    0:46:21 the producers announced they were raising another $5 million to take it on the road.
    0:46:23 Here’s Richard Winkler again.
    0:46:31 I think it’s going to be very successful, but it also depends on what city you go to
    0:46:33 and how long you’re there.
    0:46:40 The world is not the same as it used to be, and the appetite for what we do is not the same.
    0:46:44 There was an appetite for a tour of Legally Blonde.
    0:46:45 Here is producer Hal Luftig again.
    0:46:51 It went on the road, a several-year U.S. tour, which did recruit and made a profit.
    0:46:56 It went to London, where it did make a small profit.
    0:47:05 And that U.K. company then turned into a U.K. tour that went to Ireland and other countries,
    0:47:07 and that was very profitable, too.
    0:47:11 So how can a middling Broadway show do so much better on the road?
    0:47:13 The houses are bigger.
    0:47:16 There are some tour houses that are over 2,000 seats.
    0:47:19 When you come to New York, you have a choice of, let’s say, 30 shows.
    0:47:25 When you’re in Cleveland, usually you’re the only one or you’re one of two.
    0:47:29 So it’s more focused, and you do pretty well.
    0:47:31 And tours usually cost a whole lot less.
    0:47:37 In addition to costing less, producers usually get much better terms on road tours,
    0:47:42 a bigger cut of ticket sales, for instance, than they do in the Broadway hothouse environment
    0:47:44 where the landlords have so much leverage.
    0:47:48 And a show like Legally Blonde can also generate licensing fees
    0:47:51 from productions much further down the chain.
    0:47:56 That show is done so many times in so many different high schools
    0:47:57 in so many different languages.
    0:48:04 The year before the pandemic, and that’s the last report I recall seeing,
    0:48:08 it was 300 or 400 productions in one year.
    0:48:09 Oh, my goodness.
    0:48:10 Yes.
    0:48:11 It was done everywhere.
    0:48:12 And if you think about it, Stephen,
    0:48:15 the casting is very easy for a school.
    0:48:17 It has enough males.
    0:48:18 It has enough females.
    0:48:21 The songs aren’t terribly difficult to sing.
    0:48:28 And it speaks to high school kids and certainly younger women
    0:48:32 because the message is you don’t ever have to dumb yourself down.
    0:48:39 A lot of shows fail on Broadway financially and critically
    0:48:45 and then do extremely well once they get out into the rest of the country in amateur venues.
    0:48:47 That is Stacey Wolfe.
    0:48:50 She is the author of a book called Beyond Broadway,
    0:48:53 The Pleasure and Promise of Musical Theater Across America.
    0:48:56 And she teaches theater and American studies at Princeton.
    0:49:03 Students like to take my classes because they are musical theater fans or kids.
    0:49:05 And they think, oh, this is going to be fun.
    0:49:10 And then they realize that musicals are among the most important cultural artifact.
    0:49:18 So we treat musicals as seriously as we would treat Shakespeare or a symphony by Beethoven.
    0:49:26 We think about South Pacific in relation to gender relations and race relations and class relations
    0:49:28 in the 1940s.
    0:49:36 We look at Phantom of the Opera in conversation with a backlash against women in the late 1980s.
    0:49:42 Pretty much any musical that you look at, even the ones that seem the silliest and most escapist
    0:49:48 and most not conversing with U.S. culture and society, really are in conversation with the society,
    0:49:49 especially if they were hits.
    0:49:50 They have to be.
    0:49:57 For many, many, many, many, many people, not all, but many, to them, Broadway and the theater are one and the same.
    0:50:00 To many others, they know many different parts of the ecosystem.
    0:50:07 But in terms of public perception and in terms of, you know, size of industry and number of participants and so on,
    0:50:08 how do you see it?
    0:50:11 Broadway is to the whole ecosystem.
    0:50:12 Tiny.
    0:50:17 Tiny in terms of number and outsized in terms of symbolism.
    0:50:22 Just symbolism and not, let’s say, profits, since we’re talking about an industry?
    0:50:24 Not in terms of profits.
    0:50:26 A lot of great things happen on Broadway.
    0:50:29 Broadway is the place where it begins.
    0:50:31 It’s symbolically important.
    0:50:32 It creates the canon.
    0:50:38 It creates the version by which all other versions are compared.
    0:50:46 But the real lifeblood of the form, why musical theater is thriving and continues to thrive,
    0:50:53 in spite of all the odds against it, in that it’s face-to-face, it’s slow, it’s hands-on,
    0:50:59 it requires incredible collaboration, only a few people can see it at a time.
    0:51:04 All of those things that happen in high schools, community theaters, summer camps,
    0:51:06 that is really the lifeblood of the form.
    0:51:13 Persuade me that when you call the non-Broadway or even the non-commercial side of theater the
    0:51:17 lifeblood, that that’s not an emotional description versus an empirical description.
    0:51:25 For example, in 2017, 2018, the Educational Theater Association, which does a survey every
    0:51:33 year, found more than 37,000 high school productions took place that year, with more than 46 million
    0:51:34 people in the audience.
    0:51:42 That compares to around 12 million people who see a Broadway show in a given year.
    0:51:48 So, yes, technically, the audience for high school musicals is at least three times bigger
    0:51:49 than the Broadway audience.
    0:51:54 But without Broadway, high schools wouldn’t necessarily have shows to produce.
    0:52:03 Once the show has the as-seen-on-Broadway imprimatur, it then has a certain kind of stamp of approval
    0:52:07 that makes it legible to anyone.
    0:52:12 Another example of this, not of a show that didn’t succeed, but a show that was never intended
    0:52:15 to succeed, was Newsies, Disney’s Newsies.
    0:52:18 What do you mean it was never intended to succeed?
    0:52:24 Newsies from the beginning was answering the cry of fans who had seen the movie, who really
    0:52:27 wanted a stage musical of the movie.
    0:52:33 So they created Newsies to have just a super brief run on Broadway, and it was meant to go
    0:52:36 out and tour and then become an amateur production.
    0:52:42 It did very well on Broadway, and because it was fairly cheap to run, because it had a set that
    0:52:45 was always meant to tour.
    0:52:47 It made back its money very quickly.
    0:52:50 Once it went out on the road, it did well.
    0:52:55 And once it went to schools, it was and continues to be very, very popular.
    0:52:57 What is it about that show that works in schools?
    0:53:08 It has a very light romance between a feisty girl and a delightful boy that has a huge chorus that’s
    0:53:09 endlessly expandable.
    0:53:13 And even though they’re news boys, they can also be played by girls.
    0:53:15 It doesn’t have any bad words.
    0:53:22 The politics are kind of, I won’t even say Marxism light, but kind of labor movement light.
    0:53:25 So it has a good uplifting message.
    0:53:28 There’s nothing to offend anyone in Newsies.
    0:53:32 And also it can allow a completely multiracial cast.
    0:53:34 It has a character with a disability.
    0:53:38 So it has a lot of great stuff going on for a school.
    0:53:39 And it’s very entertaining.
    0:53:42 The music is super catchy, easy to sing.
    0:53:46 It can have a lot of dance or doesn’t have to have a lot of dance, depending on what you
    0:53:47 have in your school.
    0:53:53 Because for high schools, the teacher or the director is always having to calculate who they
    0:53:55 have in their population.
    0:53:58 So it’s never an arbitrary choice for them.
    0:54:02 It’s a very calculated decision about what show can they do?
    0:54:03 Do they have enough parts for girls?
    0:54:05 Can their kids sing the show?
    0:54:06 Do they have musicians?
    0:54:09 Okay, so what does it cost?
    0:54:15 If I’m a high school and I want to put on Newsies or Three Summers of Lincoln, let’s say three
    0:54:19 years from now, what’s it going to cost and how does that licensing work?
    0:54:25 Typically, a full-length show costs somewhere around $3,000.
    0:54:32 If you were going to do a Broadway junior show, a 60-minute show, that would run you closer
    0:54:35 to $700 for the show.
    0:54:42 So if I’m the originator of a show that played on Broadway, it succeeded, it failed, it was
    0:54:47 somewhere in the middle, whatever, I hear you say some high school wants to license it for
    0:54:50 somewhere between $700 and $3,000.
    0:54:56 How many productions might there be in a given year and how much money might that represent?
    0:55:07 There can be thousands of productions per year, and it can be some millions of dollars per
    0:55:07 year.
    0:55:10 Let me just tell you a little bit more about Three Summers of Lincoln.
    0:55:11 So it’s a musical.
    0:55:13 It’s got comic moments.
    0:55:14 It’s got serious moments.
    0:55:15 It’s got some gospel.
    0:55:17 It’s got some kind of Broadway music.
    0:55:18 It’s got some field music.
    0:55:21 It’s got some jazzy-ish, bluesy stuff.
    0:55:27 It’s primarily about the relationship between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and
    0:55:33 really how Douglass radicalized Lincoln, turned him into an abolitionist, and how Lincoln, to
    0:55:37 his surprise, won re-election when he thought he was going to lose.
    0:55:39 What does that sound like to you as a high school musical?
    0:55:41 What do you think the prospects are?
    0:55:43 Honestly, it sounds challenging.
    0:55:45 Because why?
    0:55:55 Because any musical that deals with something as overtly political as race relations could
    0:55:58 have a hard time in our country at this moment.
    0:56:04 There probably will be certain segments of the country that would be absolutely thrilled to
    0:56:05 do a show like that.
    0:56:10 It also sounds to me there’s a great friendship in the center of this, which is always something
    0:56:12 welcome for high school shows.
    0:56:20 How have issues around free speech and hate speech and identity politics, how has all that
    0:56:25 affected which shows get chosen to be produced in high schools?
    0:56:29 I can’t overstate how much those issues have affected what’s produced.
    0:56:35 It’s so difficult for a high school teacher and students to get their show passed.
    0:56:43 A school board, a principal, and a community that finds problems with every single issue.
    0:56:55 Okay, so if Three Summers of Lincoln isn’t going to make its money back on high school
    0:57:00 productions, it better hope it succeeds on Broadway, or at least hope it makes it there.
    0:57:06 When we last heard about Lincoln in part one of this series, they had just produced a successful
    0:57:08 workshop performance in New York.
    0:57:15 After that would come another round of revisions and then a world premiere at the non-profit
    0:57:21 La Jolla Playhouse in early 2025 with the hope of moving to Broadway sometime in 2026.
    0:57:27 But if you remember, the actor playing Lincoln, Brian Stokes Mitchell, announced that he was
    0:57:31 dropping out of the production the day before tickets went on sale at La Jolla.
    0:57:40 That is Debbie Buchholz, managing director of the La Jolla Playhouse.
    0:57:43 I’d called her up after I learned that Stokes was leaving the show.
    0:57:50 I’d heard all sorts of rumors about what his quitting meant, but the official line was simply
    0:57:54 that he withdrew for personal reasons and that the show must, you know, go on.
    0:58:00 I asked Buchholz if anyone involved had thought about postponing the La Jolla premiere.
    0:58:01 I was never on the table.
    0:58:07 The thing about a musical is, particularly in a musical where you have the seniority and
    0:58:13 caliber of the creative team that’s on this, part of the magic game of Tetris is lining up
    0:58:17 some really, really challenging schedules.
    0:58:21 And these schedules are lined up.
    0:58:27 I can recognize that for your theater, a postponement would probably be a big drag, right?
    0:58:30 You don’t have something that could be slotted in right there, I assume?
    0:58:30 That’s right.
    0:58:31 That’s correct.
    0:58:37 On the other hand, if I think about the commercial producers, they are playing the long game.
    0:58:44 And so if they’re hoping to get to Broadway in whatever, a year, 18 months, they might say,
    0:58:51 well, you know, this was a big step back and we need to reassess and or wait for Stokes and
    0:58:55 or find someone that we won’t be able to find as quickly as this.
    0:58:59 So what if they came to you and said, hey, you know what, Debbie, we love La Jolla Playhouse,
    0:59:03 we love you, but we’re pulling out of this production.
    0:59:04 What would happen then?
    0:59:06 Look, there’s all sorts of different things that can happen then.
    0:59:07 It just doesn’t happen.
    0:59:13 Frankly, the agreement between all of us wasn’t contingent on any one particular person in that
    0:59:13 role.
    0:59:18 This piece would be incredibly challenged if it tried to put itself off.
    0:59:23 It wouldn’t be putting it off for 12 or 18 months because they would need to find another
    0:59:25 developmental home for it as well.
    0:59:29 Another regional theater that had a slot and it would be putting it off for a very long time.
    0:59:33 Do you have a dream replacement for Lincoln?
    0:59:35 No, I don’t.
    0:59:37 Fantasy casting.
    0:59:40 No, I’m excited to see whoever comes in to do it.
    0:59:48 Coming up next time in the third and final part of our series, we will meet the new Lincoln.
    0:59:53 I felt like if I still want to be an actor, I have to do this.
    0:59:59 We’ll hear from Mary Todd Lincoln, not the alcoholic cabaret singer from O’Mary, but
    1:00:03 the Mary from Three Summers of Lincoln, about losing her original Abraham.
    1:00:05 I was concerned.
    1:00:06 I was concerned.
    1:00:10 And we’ll ask the commercial producers how they’re feeling.
    1:00:15 I believe that after La Jolla, people will be throwing money at the project.
    1:00:16 That’s next time.
    1:00:17 Until then, take care of yourself.
    1:00:20 And if you can, someone else too.
    1:00:24 Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio.
    1:00:28 You can find our entire archive on any podcast app.
    1:00:32 Also at Freakonomics.com, where we publish transcripts and show notes.
    1:00:35 This episode was produced by Alina Kullman.
    1:00:38 It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger with help from Jeremy Johnston.
    1:00:43 The Freakonomics Radio network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abouaji, Eleanor Osborne,
    1:00:49 Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippin, John Schnars, Morgan Levy, Neil Carruth,
    1:00:51 Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski.
    1:00:54 Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers.
    1:00:56 And our composer is Luis Guerra.
    1:00:58 As always, thanks for listening.
    1:01:06 If you’re the producer of a show, you’re like a parent.
    1:01:10 And that’s like asking you, do you ever stop working with your children?
    1:01:11 I don’t think so.
    1:01:12 They could be 30 years old.
    1:01:13 You’re still going to be working.
    1:01:20 The Freakonomics Radio Network.
    1:01:22 The hidden side of everything.
    1:01:26 Stitcher.

    A hit like Hamilton can come from nowhere while a sure bet can lose $20 million in a flash. We speak with some of the biggest producers in the game — Sonia Friedman, Jeffrey Seller, Hal Luftig — and learn that there is only one guarantee: the theater owners always win. (Part two of a three-part series.)

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Debby Buchholz, managing director of La Jolla Playhouse.
      • Sonia Friedman, Broadway producer.
      • Rocco Landesman, Broadway producer, former owner of Jujamcyn Theaters, former chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts.
      • Hal Luftig, Broadway producer.
      • Luis Miranda Jr., political strategist, founding president of the Hispanic Federation, the Northern Manhattan Arts Alliance, Viva Broadway, and The Public Theater.
      • Michael Rushton, professor of arts administration at Indiana University.
      • Jeffrey Seller, Broadway producer.
      • Richard Winkler, Broadway producer.
      • Stacy Wolf, professor of theater at Princeton University.

     

     

  • Jean Chatzky: How to Unlock Wealth and Maximize Your Earnings | Finance | YAPClassic

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 Today’s episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb and Microsoft Teams.
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    0:00:22 then you need to check out Microsoft Teams Free.
    0:00:27 Try Microsoft Teams Free today at aka.ms slash profiting.
    0:00:31 As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes
    0:00:34 or at youngandprofiting.com slash deals.
    0:00:38 Hey, Yap Gang, are you ready to build your personal brand online,
    0:00:42 attract a large and loyal audience through transformative content,
    0:00:45 and turn your long-running passion into profit?
    0:00:49 If that sounds like you, then don’t miss my brand new webinar,
    0:00:53 Build Your Personal Brand in the Creator Economy, happening May 7th.
    0:00:57 In this special live training, I’ll walk you through everything you need to know,
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    0:01:20 If you’re serious about building your personal brand as a creator, this is where you start.
    0:01:24 Sign up now at youngandprofiting.co slash maywebinar.
    0:01:29 That’s youngandprofiting.co slash maywebinar to join this special training.
    0:01:35 Also, as a bonus for my Yap listeners, Opus has agreed to give one month for free
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    0:01:39 So, what are you waiting for?
    0:01:44 Sign up now at youngandprofiting.co slash maywebinar and claim your prize.
    0:01:47 You can also find the link in the show notes.
    0:02:03 Young and Profiters, we are on the brink of a major wealth shift.
    0:02:08 One that’s putting financial power in the hands of women over the coming decades.
    0:02:14 And no matter if you’re a man or a woman, this is super important because you can create
    0:02:18 business ideas to cater with this women who have more wealth.
    0:02:23 Yet, despite the shift of women having more money, they’re still less likely to invest than
    0:02:27 men and often feel less confident about doing so.
    0:02:30 My guest in this Yap Classic episode is Jean Chaskey.
    0:02:34 She believes the best way to build confidence is simple.
    0:02:35 Start investing.
    0:02:41 Jean is an award-winning journalist, best-selling author, and host of the podcast, Her Money.
    0:02:45 She also served as the longtime financial editor of the Today Show.
    0:02:50 Jean has a talent for making complex financial topics easy to understand.
    0:02:55 And in this episode, she shared practical strategies for budgeting, saving, and investing.
    0:02:58 All right, Yap fam, let’s get right into it.
    0:03:03 Jean, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
    0:03:05 Thanks, Hala.
    0:03:06 Thanks so much for having me.
    0:03:08 I’m so excited for this conversation.
    0:03:11 I think it’s going to be so insightful for my audience.
    0:03:12 I really love your work.
    0:03:16 You didn’t really start off in finance, which I thought was interesting.
    0:03:22 And I’d love to get some backstory from you in terms of your journalism background.
    0:03:23 You were an English major.
    0:03:26 How did you end up first getting interested in finances?
    0:03:34 I got interested, quite honestly, because my own financial life was a bit of a mess.
    0:03:42 And simultaneously, the journalism job that I got was business adjacent.
    0:03:50 I started my career as an editorial assistant at a magazine that no longer exists called Working
    0:03:59 Woman and got to report some stories on things like business and careers and management trends
    0:04:00 and investing.
    0:04:09 And I was interested enough in them to try to get a job in personal finance, business journalism
    0:04:17 when I left that job, which turned out to be really, really difficult because all the big business
    0:04:22 magazines on the planet, I applied to all of them, thought Working Woman was a joke.
    0:04:32 And finally, I got a little bit of advice that what I needed was an MBA, but I didn’t have
    0:04:35 really any interest in going back to school at that point.
    0:04:37 So instead, I got a job on Wall Street.
    0:04:40 I worked in equity research for a couple of years.
    0:04:43 I learned investing inside and out.
    0:04:49 And when I came back out, I was able to reenter journalism, join Forbes from there to smart money.
    0:04:52 And from there, I ended up on the Today Show for 25 years.
    0:04:53 Amazing.
    0:05:00 So when I looked at your career journey, it reminded me a lot of my own in terms that you skill
    0:05:01 stacked to become an entrepreneur.
    0:05:07 So I call this skill stack entrepreneurship, where basically you worked for other people
    0:05:10 and you gained all these skills over the years.
    0:05:13 And then you became an entrepreneur, basically putting these skills together.
    0:05:19 And then you came out with her money and nobody could do her money better than you because
    0:05:23 you had all the experiences to put together this unique offering, to put together this
    0:05:25 awesome website, this awesome podcast.
    0:05:31 And you had all the background and the skills, the writing, the journalism, the broadcasting,
    0:05:34 the knowledge of that actual topic.
    0:05:38 It’s a lot like what I did with Yap Media and my podcast network and my social agency.
    0:05:43 So I’d love for you to just talk to us about that for all these young people listening.
    0:05:47 Talk about the skills that you acquired over the years and then how you sort of use that in
    0:05:48 your entrepreneurship journey.
    0:05:53 I was one of the original side giggers, right?
    0:05:57 I think I had a side hustle before it was called a side hustle.
    0:06:04 Pretty much always because journalists make very little money, or at least when you’re starting
    0:06:06 out as a journalist, you make very little money.
    0:06:09 So originally my side hustle was teaching SATs.
    0:06:16 But as I started to become a stronger writer and a stronger content creator, I was able to
    0:06:19 hustle in my own industry.
    0:06:27 So just by doing that, I picked up a lot of the adjacent skills that I then needed to launch
    0:06:28 this business.
    0:06:34 Once I was on the Today Show in particular, a lot of doors started to open.
    0:06:37 These were the days where everybody was watching the Today Show.
    0:06:47 And so I got a lot of offers to go out and speak, to write books, to consult for different companies
    0:06:53 in the employee benefits departments where they were trying to improve the financial health
    0:06:54 of their employees.
    0:07:04 And I didn’t become an entrepreneur until, a full-scale entrepreneur, until 20 years down
    0:07:10 the road when I left my last magazine job.
    0:07:14 I actually got fired from my last magazine job because I’d gotten a little too expensive
    0:07:15 for their payroll.
    0:07:20 And I looked at all of the other things that I was doing.
    0:07:26 I was doing radio for Oprah over here, and I was doing speaking here, and I was on my 10th
    0:07:30 book over here, and I had three other clients over here.
    0:07:33 And I thought, why am I getting another job?
    0:07:35 I have five other jobs.
    0:07:38 I just need to put them together.
    0:07:43 Her money as a company came along after her money as a podcast.
    0:07:47 I was doing some work with Fidelity Investments.
    0:07:50 They were our original launch sponsor.
    0:07:54 The fabulous team there basically said, what else can we do together?
    0:07:56 And I was like, how about a podcast?
    0:08:06 So we launched, and very quickly it became apparent to me that we were growing a community of like-minded
    0:08:08 women who wanted to learn about money.
    0:08:12 And Her Money, the company, launched around that.
    0:08:13 Amazing.
    0:08:15 Well, you’ve been doing such a great job.
    0:08:17 I know that your podcast is super popular.
    0:08:19 Your blog is very well known.
    0:08:21 I’ve heard about Her Money for many years now.
    0:08:26 You also have so many books, and you’ve just become such an accomplished author.
    0:08:29 And a majority of your content is actually geared towards women.
    0:08:34 So I want to talk to that for a minute, because I know that all the advice you give is applicable
    0:08:36 to all genders, right?
    0:08:38 Doesn’t necessarily need to be just for women.
    0:08:44 But we do need to understand why women have traditionally had an uphill battle when it has
    0:08:46 come to their finances.
    0:08:49 Can you give us some insight in terms of the gender wage gap?
    0:08:53 And I think a lot of people have the assumption that that’s not really a thing anymore.
    0:08:57 So can you talk to us about if it is a thing in 2024?
    0:08:59 Oh, it’s a thing.
    0:09:01 It has budged, which is good.
    0:09:08 Over the last like year and a half, it’s moved up a smidge so that at this point, women earn
    0:09:13 83 and a half cents to every dollar that a white man earns.
    0:09:20 But the American Association of University Women say, we are going to be halfway through the next
    0:09:24 century before this gap actually closes.
    0:09:27 That’s how slowly it’s moving.
    0:09:29 And it’s worse for women of color.
    0:09:37 And the problem with the gender wage gap is that when you combine it with all of the other
    0:09:48 factors that women deal with in terms of earning money and growing money for retirement, they
    0:09:49 put us behind.
    0:09:53 Women are the ones to take breaks from work, to care for kids and care for older parents.
    0:10:02 We saw that in the pandemic in spades, but it’s been true all along because we take those
    0:10:03 breaks.
    0:10:07 We have less money growing in those retirement accounts.
    0:10:10 We earn fewer social security credits.
    0:10:12 We get to the end of the line.
    0:10:16 We’ve got a smaller nest egg and then we have to make the money last longer because we go and
    0:10:18 we outlive men by six, seven years.
    0:10:20 So it’s an uphill battle.
    0:10:26 But you’re right in terms of the advice being gender neutral.
    0:10:34 There are not a ton of differences in the advice that somebody would give to a man versus a woman.
    0:10:41 Jane Bryant Quinn, who is one of my mentors and a leading personal finance journalist, just a
    0:10:42 trailblazer.
    0:10:45 She likes to say that stocks aren’t pink or blue.
    0:10:48 Money’s not pink or blue.
    0:10:49 It’s green, right?
    0:10:53 And she’s a hundred percent right about that.
    0:11:03 The problem is that women sometimes don’t feel as safe as we need to feel to ask the questions
    0:11:11 that we need answered in order to get us to take the steps to start investing, to put our
    0:11:14 money to work, to ask for that raise.
    0:11:19 And what I’ve found and the reason that I launched her money was that when I was in a
    0:11:28 room full of all women, given some sort of a talk, and I would get to the Q&A section, the hands would just fly up in the air.
    0:11:32 And when I was in a mixed group, the response was a lot more muted.
    0:11:36 Women really held back and didn’t want to share as much.
    0:11:40 And so what I set out to create was a safe space.
    0:11:51 But am I going to tell women that they should buy NVIDIA as we did for our investing club two years ago and tell men that they should not?
    0:11:53 No, absolutely not.
    0:11:54 Such good advice.
    0:11:57 And by the way, that stock has done really well because I have it too.
    0:11:58 Yeah.
    0:12:01 So a lot of my listeners are business owners.
    0:12:03 A lot of them are people of power.
    0:12:04 We have employees.
    0:12:06 We have our own small businesses.
    0:12:10 What is our responsibility when it comes to the gender wage gap?
    0:12:14 I think our responsibility is to level it.
    0:12:34 And it has to come from the employers because if employers don’t take a look at our payrolls, don’t take a look at how we are treating our employees, irrespective of gender, irrespective of race, these gaps are never going to close.
    0:12:43 And so we have to get really honest about who’s doing what work and how much are they being compensated for it.
    0:12:46 And it’s not a matter of need.
    0:12:49 It’s a matter of the work that we need them to do.
    0:12:55 But it’s not a matter of our perception of the money that they need to take home, which is how it used to work.
    0:13:04 You know, years back, you would hear conversations where a boss would tell a female employee, well, of course, John is going to get paid more than you do.
    0:13:09 He’s the breadwinner and he’s got multiple mouths to feed at home.
    0:13:14 We’re now in an era where more women are the breadwinners.
    0:13:32 And if you look ahead, if you look out to 2030 and into the 2030s, women are actually expected to control the lion’s share of the wealth and the spending in this country and across the world.
    0:13:43 And it’s because of educational trends that are leading women to have more qualifications than men in many, many instances.
    0:13:56 And it’s also because of the way that the transfer of wealth, the $41 trillion transfer of wealth that is going on as we speak, is playing out.
    0:13:58 Women are inheriting twice.
    0:14:10 And not because our parents prefer us to our brothers, but we’re inheriting twice because if we have brothers, chances are we split the family pie with them.
    0:14:13 But then when our husbands die, we inherit that money as well.
    0:14:15 That’s so good.
    0:14:17 And this is really, really fascinating to me.
    0:14:25 I really want to spend a lot of time here on these social and economical changes that are going on.
    0:14:31 So I got some incredible stats from your work and I’m going to rattle some off and ask some questions about them.
    0:14:35 And I’d love for you to really just give us as much insight, as much color as you have about them.
    0:14:42 So the first one is for every 100 men who graduated from college last year, 132 women graduated.
    0:14:50 Can you talk about how this really snowballs into various social demographic economic changes?
    0:14:51 Absolutely.
    0:15:07 If you look at the types of jobs that college grads hold and the types of jobs that you need to have a college degree in order to get, they tend to be the higher paying jobs.
    0:15:13 We are seeing some movement in trades, in apprenticeships, in vocational programs.
    0:15:19 I grew up in Wheeling, West Virginia in a high school that had a big welding department in the basement.
    0:15:22 And I believe that we need to see more of these opportunities.
    0:15:30 But there’s no question that a college degree helps you land a better salary.
    0:15:41 And when you look at the lifetime earnings of a person with a college degree versus one who doesn’t have one, it’s hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more.
    0:16:00 And the way that that then drives change in society is that you have these families where you tend to have not just one, but two college educated people because college educated people often meet in college.
    0:16:13 And those two income college educated households are going to be making significantly more money in many cases than those who are not college educated.
    0:16:22 And what we wind up with is just a bigger income disparity in this country than we have right now.
    0:16:25 And as you know, Hala, it’s already problematic.
    0:16:30 So we look at it and we see these things starting to march in that direction.
    0:16:45 The other problem, though, and I hear of this from my daughter and from people younger than her, is that if you are on a college campus and you’re heterosexual and you want to date, it’s gotten an awful lot harder.
    0:16:51 Hmm, I definitely want to talk about that, but let’s hold that thought for a second.
    0:16:58 Let’s talk about how by 2028, women will control 75% of discretionary spending around the world.
    0:17:02 By 2030, 66% of America’s wealth will be with women.
    0:17:10 You alluded to this a bit, but what are some of the factors of why women are going to have so much more money in the future years?
    0:17:16 So it’s education and it is the transfer of wealth.
    0:17:19 Those are the two big factors that are playing into this.
    0:17:33 But when you talk about the fact that women are going to have the money, what people don’t do is sort of follow the breadcrumbs and think about how that’s going to change everything, right?
    0:17:40 When you follow the breadcrumbs, what you see is that the fact that women are making these purchasing decisions changes things.
    0:17:49 If you look at cars, it’s going to change the way that cars are designed because they’re going to be designed with women buyers more in mind.
    0:17:56 You’ll have a better place to park that bag that you carry around on your shoulder all the time.
    0:18:06 The seat will be adjustable in a different way so that you’ll be able to see over the front of the hood if you’re height-challenged in the way that I am.
    0:18:09 It’ll change the design of homes.
    0:18:13 Single women buy many more homes than single men.
    0:18:16 They’ve become a very important segment of homebuyers.
    0:18:23 And we are seeing homes designed with the things that women want in mind.
    0:18:40 So it’s not just a matter of the fact that financial advisors are a little bit up in arms about this because they have seen studies that show that when the male spouse in a family dies,
    0:18:49 70-ish percent of women are likely to leave the advisor and find somebody of their own choosing, those trends are underway as well.
    0:18:53 But it’s going to change the look and feel and design of a lot of products.
    0:18:55 Oh my gosh, so interesting.
    0:18:56 You know what you just reminded me of?
    0:19:03 So I took my mom to Cancun on vacation and I got us first-class tickets.
    0:19:06 We only brought checked bags.
    0:19:10 And I remember me and her trying to put our bags up on the airplane.
    0:19:11 We’re both petite.
    0:19:12 We had to help each other.
    0:19:16 And actually, my mom accidentally slipped and the bag fell.
    0:19:18 And it was so embarrassing.
    0:19:20 And it kind of caused a commotion.
    0:19:25 And in my head, I was thinking, I just paid over $2,000 for these tickets.
    0:19:33 And I was expected as a five-foot-one girl to put up a bag with my 70-year-old mother by ourselves.
    0:19:35 And I was thinking, how ridiculous is this?
    0:19:37 Who are these airplanes designed for?
    0:19:40 It’s obviously not considering petite women.
    0:19:43 Yeah, it’s definitely not.
    0:19:49 And maybe if they start to see that more women are buying their own business-class seats,
    0:19:51 that’ll be something that will change.
    0:19:58 Or the folks who make the away bag that we all seem to carry will come up with some sort of a
    0:20:02 hoister to help us get it up in that luggage compartment.
    0:20:03 Because I have the same trouble that you do.
    0:20:06 It’s the worst part about flying for me.
    0:20:07 It is.
    0:20:13 Okay, so 38% of women are their family’s biggest earner or primary breadwinner.
    0:20:17 How does that impact society and contribute to the fact that 50% of women are single right now?
    0:20:23 Look, there’s a lot of research on when a woman is the primary breadwinner
    0:20:28 and whether or not it causes strife in relationships.
    0:20:37 Generally, if when a man and a woman form their relationship, the woman is already the higher
    0:20:41 earner, then that status quo doesn’t rock the boat too much.
    0:20:47 It’s when there’s a shift in the dynamic over the course of the relationship that impacts
    0:20:54 the balance of power in the relationship in other ways that things go a little bit sideways.
    0:20:59 And that’s where we start to see breakdown in communication.
    0:21:06 That’s where we start to see women compensating for the fact that they make more money.
    0:21:09 I mean, I’m sure that you have seen this research, Khaled.
    0:21:11 It’s so troubling.
    0:21:17 When women make more money, we don’t see that they offload more of the responsibilities at home.
    0:21:22 We see that they take on more of the responsibilities at home.
    0:21:32 And the logic behind that is that we feel somehow bad about that and that we have to make nice
    0:21:34 to our spouse’s ego.
    0:21:39 So of course, we’re going to make dinner and do the grocery shopping and take care of the
    0:21:40 kids.
    0:21:42 And that’s where burnout comes from.
    0:21:44 And that’s where anger comes from.
    0:21:46 And in some cases, that’s where divorce comes from.
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    0:26:54 I want to talk to you about the availability of suitable partners for successful women.
    0:26:57 You’re like kind of alluding to this when you were talking about your daughter.
    0:26:59 And I’m going to get a little bit personal here.
    0:27:03 So I’m in my mid-30s and I have no kids.
    0:27:03 I’m not married.
    0:27:06 I’m literally never single.
    0:27:11 I can get a boyfriend like this, but I haven’t really found the one.
    0:27:13 And I kind of know the reason why.
    0:27:18 I feel like it’s because a lot of guys that I date, they seem like they’re cool with a
    0:27:20 successful woman and they’re successful too.
    0:27:22 They’re all executives or whatever they are.
    0:27:27 But I’m growing really fast and they end up getting insecure.
    0:27:31 Like you’re going to outgrow me is what they think, right?
    0:27:33 You’re going to outgrow me.
    0:27:36 And so we end up breaking up and I haven’t found the right partner.
    0:27:40 Now, there’s a couple of things that have recently opened my eyes.
    0:27:42 Number one is Marshall Goldsmith.
    0:27:43 I have a social media agency.
    0:27:46 He’s one of my longtime LinkedIn clients.
    0:27:47 He’s a leadership coach.
    0:27:50 He is always trying to get me married.
    0:27:53 And he’s always telling me, Kala, this happened to my daughters.
    0:27:55 You have to marry down.
    0:27:57 You can’t be worried about marrying up.
    0:27:58 You’ve got to marry down.
    0:27:59 You’ll find a great guy.
    0:28:03 He doesn’t have to be richer than you or like you’ve just got to marry down.
    0:28:07 And for a while, I was trying to find somebody that was equal that I could grow with.
    0:28:13 But like the other thing that really opened my eyes is that I started this podcast network and I’ve
    0:28:22 got a lot of women who like I feel like I’m going to be like in a few years, like Jenna Kutcher, Amy Porterfield, Kelly Roach was my social client.
    0:28:30 And they all have either retired their husbands, they have house dads basically, or their husband works with them or for them.
    0:28:33 And that made me realize because their families are so happy.
    0:28:36 And I was like, well, maybe I’m just like looking at this in the wrong way.
    0:28:43 Maybe I should feel like almost not like a man, but that I just need to find a great partner.
    0:28:47 They don’t need to have the career that I want them to have.
    0:28:48 It’s more about the person, right?
    0:28:50 So I just love your thoughts on this.
    0:28:55 I am married for the second time and I agree with that.
    0:29:03 First of all, I think, and no disrespect to Marshall, but when he says you have to marry down, I think that that’s the wrong word.
    0:29:07 I think that you have to marry and date different.
    0:29:17 Yeah, you need a partner who is going to be really supportive of your efforts and your career.
    0:29:21 Because let’s just be honest about this.
    0:29:23 And I felt the same way when I first had kids.
    0:29:27 My former father-in-law said, well, when are you stopping working?
    0:29:32 Because all of his other daughters and daughters-in-law had stopped working.
    0:29:33 And I said, yeah, not me.
    0:29:35 I’m not doing that.
    0:29:41 We will figure out how these kids will have care during the day.
    0:29:46 And the way that we did it was that my ex-husband didn’t travel for work.
    0:29:47 And I did.
    0:29:53 And that balanced us out for a very, very long time.
    0:30:03 If you are in a relationship where the egos are clashing or where your partner can’t support your success or doesn’t want to support your success,
    0:30:04 then it’s not going to work.
    0:30:06 It’s just going to fail.
    0:30:11 Have you ever seen the movie Beautiful Girls?
    0:30:12 No.
    0:30:12 Okay.
    0:30:14 You have to watch the movie Beautiful Girls.
    0:30:16 It’s old.
    0:30:17 20 years, probably.
    0:30:24 Natalie Portman and Annabeth Gish and Timothy Hutton and Matt Dillon.
    0:30:25 A whole bunch of people.
    0:30:32 But the part of that movie that sticks with me is there’s a very successful woman in it.
    0:30:34 She’s dating Timothy Hutton.
    0:30:41 And he is a piano player in a bar who also happens to be an accountant.
    0:30:49 And he’s been putting a whole lot of pressure on himself to get a real accounting job so that he can keep up with her.
    0:30:53 And finally, she just said, musicians are sexy.
    0:30:55 Accountants are not sexy.
    0:30:56 Musicians are sexy.
    0:31:08 Giving him the permission to continue to do this thing that he enjoyed and continue to bring that sexy energy to their relationship, which is what she needed from him.
    0:31:13 And so that’s the balance, I think, that you’re looking for.
    0:31:21 There’s a lot of lean-in Sheryl Sandberg’s book that people have dismissed over the past number of years.
    0:31:28 I think the thing that really holds up from that book is the importance that she put on selecting your partner.
    0:31:41 She picked a guy that she knew was going to let her be her and let her do the work that she wanted to do and help them create a life where that was going to be possible.
    0:31:42 And that’s what you need.
    0:31:43 Yeah.
    0:31:53 More generally, for everybody tuning in, I just feel like it’s just harder to find traditional roles and partners anymore for men and for women.
    0:31:57 And I just would love to understand even more advice from you for the young people tuning in.
    0:32:07 How can men feel like men and women feel like women in their relationships when everything is sort of getting switched around in terms of who’s the breadwinner?
    0:32:09 I just feel like it’s so difficult for us to date.
    0:32:16 I think the way that you do it is by knowing yourself and knowing your partner and closing ranks.
    0:32:27 This is your business and it’s your partner’s business and it’s not your mother’s business or your mother-in-law’s business or your friend’s business or Instagram’s business, right?
    0:32:30 It is nobody’s business but yours.
    0:32:35 And if it’s working for the two of you, then who the hell cares, right?
    0:32:37 What anybody else has to say.
    0:32:47 You just have to respect the boundaries that you’ve created with the two of you and what that allows you to do.
    0:32:49 Look, I’m the breadwinner in my marriage.
    0:32:51 I have been for many years.
    0:32:54 My husband is largely retired.
    0:32:56 He works about 15 hours a week these days.
    0:32:58 He’s older than I am.
    0:33:02 And he had an incredibly successful career.
    0:33:08 But the fact that I out-earned him, he could care less.
    0:33:13 He knows the value that he brings to our marriage.
    0:33:17 I certainly know the value that he brings to our marriage.
    0:33:22 And it’s nobody else’s business, really, despite the fact that I’m talking about it on your podcast.
    0:33:24 I love it.
    0:33:26 Thanks, Jean, for all of that.
    0:33:26 Okay.
    0:33:28 So women are getting richer.
    0:33:35 Can you talk to us about how women are going to treat this newfound wealth compared to how men traditionally have treated wealth?
    0:33:39 Men have traditionally invested it.
    0:33:43 And women traditionally have been slow to the party.
    0:33:49 If you, again, and you pulled out a whole bunch of statistics, I’m grateful for that.
    0:33:54 But one of my favorites is that women keep about 70% of our assets in cash.
    0:33:56 Men keep about 60%.
    0:34:09 It’s a really big and important difference because investing our money is the only way that we are going to make sure that it is working as hard as we are working ourselves.
    0:34:22 And so what we’re starting to see is women move into the ranks of being investors, wanting to be investors, wanting to learn about investors.
    0:34:33 Whether you’ve got all your money in a 401k where you put it in a target date fund and you let that fund do its thing or you’re buying individual stocks, we want to learn.
    0:34:35 I was telling you about my investing club.
    0:34:43 I run this investing club with Karen Feinerman, who is one of the panelists on Fast Money on CNBC.
    0:34:44 She’s a hedge fund manager.
    0:34:45 You would love her.
    0:34:46 She’s so brilliant.
    0:34:55 And we’re teaching 300 women and growing how to invest every other Monday night on Zoom.
    0:35:02 And we pick stocks together and we talk about diversification and trends and everybody can ask their questions.
    0:35:14 And investing is the kind of thing that is hard for women because there are no right or perfect answers.
    0:35:24 There’s some parts of personal finance where if you ask me a question, I can give you an answer and I can be 100% right.
    0:35:27 What is the best cashback credit card?
    0:35:28 I can look at them all.
    0:35:29 I can run the numbers.
    0:35:31 I can give you an answer.
    0:35:32 I can know that I’m correct.
    0:35:40 What’s the best stock can’t do it because no perfect answer exists because we have backward-looking information and not forward-looking information.
    0:35:46 And so we have to trust in the historical accuracy of what has come before.
    0:35:55 That is difficult for a large portion of women who like to know the answer to any question before we even ask that question.
    0:35:56 We have to do it.
    0:35:57 We have to get comfortable.
    0:36:01 And the way to get comfortable is by actually doing it.
    0:36:18 And one thing that has really, really helped when you look at Gen Z and millennials is that we’re now being across the board automatically enrolled in these 401k and other retirement plans at work where we have them.
    0:36:25 The money is being automatically invested into a default like a target date fund.
    0:36:31 So you’re investing whether or not you are doing the work of investing yourself in many cases.
    0:36:39 And if you can allow yourself to sit with that and get comfortable with the fact that you’re not only doing it, but you’re doing it pretty well, that helps people.
    0:36:40 I love that.
    0:36:44 This was, to me, such an interesting conversation, honestly.
    0:36:49 I feel like this whole gender wage gap and transfer of wealth, it’s really shifting everything.
    0:36:54 Let’s move on to some more general advice, tactical financial advice.
    0:36:57 I want to start with the concept of financial freedom, right?
    0:37:04 I feel like the concept of financial freedom has changed, especially for millennials, for Gen Z.
    0:37:07 How do you think we should go about thinking about financial freedom?
    0:37:11 Well, I’m interested in knowing how you think it’s changed.
    0:37:12 What is it to you?
    0:37:19 Well, I feel like now it’s more about enjoying life, doing what I want, right?
    0:37:21 It’s really not about becoming a billionaire.
    0:37:32 It’s what’s the amount of money that I need where I can live comfortably, buy what I want, and enjoy life, work out, be healthy, sit in the sun.
    0:37:33 You know, that’s what I think of.
    0:37:36 That’s pretty much my definition, too.
    0:37:44 It’s just my definition, I think, extends for a longer period of time because of my age, right?
    0:37:58 So I look at this and I think I want all of that, but I want to be able at some point to just work when I want to work and know that those things will continue for as long as I live.
    0:38:03 So I think that’s where the disparity in financial freedom comes in.
    0:38:17 And I think younger generations define it in terms for today and older generations define it in terms that include a retirement that might last for three decades.
    0:38:24 So one of the things that I think a lot of my listeners are probably going through right now, we’ve got a lot of 30-year-olds, is buying or renting.
    0:38:31 And traditionally, when we’re talking about the American dream, financial freedom, a lot of it is also like being a homeowner, right?
    0:38:34 Do you feel like it’s important to be a homeowner?
    0:38:36 Do you feel like it’s a good investment strategy?
    0:38:39 And what are some of the things we should think of renting versus buying?
    0:38:48 I feel like being a homeowner is a helpful way to save money over the long term.
    0:38:58 If you think about buying versus renting, month to month, right now the costs are actually closer than they’ve ever been.
    0:39:07 But when you own, you are putting equity, you’re building equity in this house.
    0:39:10 And that is a form of forced savings.
    0:39:24 And what happens if you get to the end of the road, if you pay down a mortgage for a long enough period of time, or even if you swap out of it and out of a couple of homes, but you’ve built up some equity and then you build up some more.
    0:39:35 You end up with this cushion of cash and you can use that cushion to supplement your standard of living.
    0:39:37 You can use it to pay for long-term care.
    0:39:39 You can use it to keep a roof over your head.
    0:39:43 You can use it to sell and move to Costa Rica.
    0:39:48 You have choices because you have this additional cushion.
    0:40:03 And if you’ve rented your whole life, unless you took the difference between the renting cost and the buying cost, which is a lot slimmer than it used to be, and you put that away every single month, you don’t have that additional sum of money.
    0:40:09 So that’s where being a homeowner, I think, is additive to your bottom line.
    0:40:10 There are other differences.
    0:40:20 We know in a whole bunch of different situations that autonomy is one of the things that make people happy.
    0:40:33 You’re happier at your job if you feel like you’ve got enough autonomy to rearrange the furniture or to put your own stuff up on the walls or to decide that you’re going to come in at 9.30 rather than 9 o’clock.
    0:40:49 You’re just happier, and you are happier where you live if you feel like you have enough autonomy to make the place what you want it to be, and you’re more likely to have that if you own rather than if you rent.
    0:40:52 But there are a lot of cases where you shouldn’t own, right?
    0:40:56 If you’re not going to be someplace for five years, I don’t think you should buy.
    0:41:02 The cost of buying is just too steep.
    0:41:14 I don’t think that mortgage rates at this level should stop people who want to be in a place for six, seven years and more.
    0:41:20 You’ll eventually, hopefully, get an opportunity to refi that loan.
    0:41:23 But there are cases where renting is just better.
    0:41:25 You gave such good advice.
    0:41:27 Like, I’m in this predicament now.
    0:41:39 To your point, I see a lot of my friends who have been homeowners, and I see them like really leveling up because every time they switch a house and they’ll make like 200 grand, and they just keep playing with that money and growing it and growing it.
    0:41:44 So I do see a lot of my friends who have dabbled in homeownership do really well.
    0:41:46 That’s inspiring to me.
    0:41:49 It’s just that in New York, it gets crazy.
    0:41:50 It’s so crazy.
    0:41:53 So I feel like people who are in different cities also have a different experience.
    0:41:56 It’s way easier to buy a house if you live in the suburbs, you know.
    0:42:00 But you have more choice now than you used to have.
    0:42:07 I know young couples who are thinking they live in New York where the price of homeownership is unsustainable.
    0:42:09 They’re looking at Philadelphia.
    0:42:11 They’re looking at Charlotte.
    0:42:17 They’re looking at other places where because they can work remotely, they could keep their jobs.
    0:42:27 They could make some friends, and they could be homeowners and have a standard of living that just is a little bit easier.
    0:42:34 Okay, so something that you talk a lot about, and I was looking around your website, and I saw that you were like, what is your money type?
    0:42:38 And you have this quiz that people can take for their money type on hermoney.com.
    0:42:40 So talk to us about money types.
    0:42:41 What is that?
    0:42:42 Why is it important to know?
    0:42:49 It’s important to know how you’re wired and why you’re wired the way you are.
    0:42:52 The money type is love languages, right?
    0:42:58 If you ever read the five love languages, money type is that, just for money.
    0:43:08 So we worked with a PhD who developed this in-depth tool that has been tested on men and women
    0:43:14 to help figure out why you are the way you are with money.
    0:43:20 I mean, you may know that it is hard for you to spend or easy for you to spend.
    0:43:28 You may know that you have trouble losing money or more or less trouble taking risk than other people.
    0:43:36 You may know that you would do anything for the members of your family, even if it meant putting yourself at financial risk.
    0:43:42 All of these things are tied up in our five personality types.
    0:44:00 And I would bet just knowing a little bit more about you and about your audience, that if people went to hermoney.com and they took our diagnostic, our questionnaire, our money type quiz, you’ve got an audience that is full of what we call visionaries.
    0:44:16 A lot of entrepreneurs are visionaries and visionaries have to be careful when it comes to their own personal finances because it is really tempting to throw all of your money against the business and think that that business is going to be your retirement plan.
    0:44:21 And we know the statistics on businesses that succeed versus fail.
    0:44:27 And you give up a lot of years trying to get that business off the ground and very quickly, you can get yourself in trouble.
    0:44:35 The other thing that I like about money type so much is that we’re not all just one type.
    0:44:42 We’ve got a primary type and then we have a couple of secondary types that make up our personality.
    0:44:56 And if you know your partner’s money type, it’s helpful in navigating the relationship and the conversations that the two of you have about money.
    0:45:09 I was recently on a different podcast and the hosts had taken the money type questionnaire and they said, I feel so seen because there’s something about this diagnostic.
    0:45:11 It just gets people.
    0:45:15 I felt this way the first time I took it and I’m a producer.
    0:45:21 That’s my primary money type with a little bit of connoisseur, which means I like to spend in as well.
    0:45:22 And it’s really true.
    0:45:28 And it’s really interesting that a test can get you so well.
    0:45:29 It’s so true.
    0:45:35 And I’m happy that you brought up relationships because I actually recently ended a relationship.
    0:45:39 And one of my primary reasons was our views on money were so different.
    0:45:43 He’s richer than I am and was so cheap.
    0:45:46 And I was just like, I can’t do this.
    0:45:47 I like to live a life of luxury.
    0:45:49 I like to spend my money.
    0:45:54 Not that I’m frivolous, but it’s just like, what’s the point of choosing such a hard job if you’re not?
    0:45:55 Right.
    0:45:58 If no one’s spending their money, why are we working so hard?
    0:45:59 Yeah.
    0:46:05 And it’s good that you figured this out before you got engaged to the guy or worse, married the guy, right?
    0:46:08 In my house, we say this is why we work.
    0:46:12 And we say it for exactly the reasons that you just described.
    0:46:13 We work hard.
    0:46:20 And we work hard so that if we want to get on a plane and fly across the country, we don’t have to think about it.
    0:46:28 This is the payoff of working so hard and producing.
    0:46:31 And I acknowledge we are definitely privileged.
    0:46:39 I’m fortunate to have a career that I love, which makes working hard feel like not working as hard.
    0:46:41 But this is why we work.
    0:46:44 If they didn’t pay us, we wouldn’t work so hard.
    0:46:48 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
    0:46:51 Hello, young Improfiters.
    0:46:55 Let’s talk about what drives a business’s success.
    0:47:04 Sure, having a great product, a strong brand, and savvy marketing can set companies like Death Wish Coffee, Magic Spoon, or even a legacy brand like Heinz apart.
    0:47:09 But the real secret to skyrocketing sales often isn’t just what they sell.
    0:47:10 It’s how they sell it.
    0:47:16 Behind every thriving business is a powerful system that makes selling effortless and buying seamless.
    0:47:20 And for millions of businesses, that behind-the-scenes powerhouse is Shopify.
    0:47:24 Nobody does selling better than Shopify.
    0:47:27 It’s the home of the number one checkout on the planet.
    0:47:33 Shopify’s not-so-secret secret is ShopPay, which boosts your conversions up to 50%.
    0:47:37 That means way fewer cards go abandoned and way more sales get done.
    0:47:46 So if you’re into growing your business, your commerce platform better be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling.
    0:47:50 On the web, in your store, in the feed, and everywhere in between.
    0:47:53 Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.
    0:47:58 Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Magic Spoon, Heinz, and yours truly use.
    0:48:03 Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash profiting.
    0:48:04 That’s all lowercase.
    0:48:08 Go to shopify.com slash profiting to upgrade your selling today.
    0:48:10 That’s shopify.com slash profiting.
    0:48:13 Hey, young improfters.
    0:48:16 I know so many of you are in your grind season.
    0:48:19 You’re working that 9 to 5, and then you’re 5 to midnight,
    0:48:21 building that dream.
    0:48:22 That’s how I started Yap Media.
    0:48:24 So keep going and hustling.
    0:48:27 But I do want to give you some advice because if you’re a side hustler,
    0:48:33 I know personally how hard it can be to find the right tools for your team without breaking the bank.
    0:48:37 All those tools can get really expensive, but you need to collaborate with your team.
    0:48:40 And that’s where Microsoft Teams Free comes in.
    0:48:44 With Teams, you get pro-level collaboration tools without the hefty price tag.
    0:48:47 You can host free video meetings for up to 60 minutes,
    0:48:53 which is perfect for brainstorming with your team or to look super professional for your client calls.
    0:48:58 Plus, enjoy unlimited chat for real-time collaboration with your side hustle team,
    0:48:59 no matter where you are.
    0:49:03 I wish that I had Microsoft Teams Free back when I was first starting Yap.
    0:49:06 I have a remote team, and it was really hard for us to keep organized.
    0:49:10 If we had Microsoft Teams Free, we would have gotten way further faster.
    0:49:15 Because with Microsoft Teams Free, you can keep your client documents, invoices,
    0:49:18 and brand assets organized with their shared file storage.
    0:49:21 You can access everything you need all in one place.
    0:49:27 You can even create community spaces to organize your team, volunteers, or creative collaborators,
    0:49:31 making it easier for you to keep your project or business on track.
    0:49:37 Built by Microsoft, Teams offers a secure, professional, and reliable platform for entrepreneurs
    0:49:38 to build their businesses.
    0:49:41 It’s flexible, secure, and available everywhere.
    0:49:42 Best of all, it’s free.
    0:49:44 Stop paying for tools.
    0:49:47 Get everything you need for free with Microsoft Teams.
    0:49:48 So why wait?
    0:49:52 Try Microsoft Teams today and start growing your side hustle without the extra cost.
    0:49:57 Head over to aka.ms slash profiting today to sign up for free.
    0:50:02 That’s aka.ms slash profiting to sign up today for free.
    0:50:07 Yeah, fam, spring is just around the corner, and I’m already planning my next getaway,
    0:50:09 and that’s to Portugal for my best friend’s wedding.
    0:50:13 Now, I’m paying for this one out of pocket because it’s not for work, it’s a vacation.
    0:50:16 And so I love for my vacation trips to feel free.
    0:50:21 And I love using points for travel, and I’m always looking for ways to earn more.
    0:50:26 And in the last six months, I’ve been using a platform called Built to pay my rent,
    0:50:28 and it has been a total game changer.
    0:50:32 I’m getting more airline points and hotel points than ever just by paying my rent,
    0:50:34 something I would have already been doing.
    0:50:38 Now I’m sponsored by them, and I can’t wait to share with you that you can join as well,
    0:50:42 no matter what your landlord or apartment complex situation is like.
    0:50:47 There’s no cost to join, and just by paying rent, you unlock flexible points that can be
    0:50:51 transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride,
    0:50:52 and so much more.
    0:50:55 When you pay rent through Built, you unlock two powerful benefits.
    0:50:59 First, you earn one of the industry’s most valuable points on rent every month.
    0:51:03 No matter where you live or who your landlord is, your rent now works for you.
    0:51:07 Second, you gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city.
    0:51:12 Built’s neighborhood benefits are things like extra points on dining out, locally, complimentary
    0:51:17 post-workout shapes, free mats or towels at your favorite fitness studios, and unique experiences
    0:51:19 that only Built members can access.
    0:51:24 And when you’re ready to travel, Built points can be converted to your favorite miles and hotel
    0:51:27 points around the world, meaning your rent can literally take you places.
    0:51:31 So if you’re not earning points on my rent, my question is, what are you waiting for?
    0:51:37 Start paying rent through Built and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by joining joinbuilt.com
    0:51:37 slash profiting.
    0:51:41 That’s J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash profiting.
    0:51:44 Make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you.
    0:51:47 That’s joinbuilt.com slash profiting to sign up for Built today.
    0:51:52 This has been such an awesome conversation.
    0:51:53 Okay, a couple more questions.
    0:51:55 Let’s talk about budgeting.
    0:51:58 There’s so much inflation going on.
    0:52:00 Everything is just way more expensive.
    0:52:05 There’s a lot of keeping up with the Joneses with social media, a lot of comparison, feeling
    0:52:07 like you need to keep buying.
    0:52:12 And for instance, with me, I feel like I always got to buy so much clothes because I’m always
    0:52:16 photographed in my outfits and then suddenly I don’t want to wear the same thing again.
    0:52:20 So talk to us about how we can avoid overspending.
    0:52:24 Well, first of all, are you not on the RealReal?
    0:52:27 You should just be turning over your closet.
    0:52:31 I mean, this is what I do because I’m the same.
    0:52:38 I do a lot of appearances and I don’t want to be wearing the same thing all the time.
    0:52:43 And I wear it a couple of times and I send it to the RealReal and I buy something else on
    0:52:48 the RealReal and I run a credit and it makes me feel like I’m shopping for free, even though
    0:52:49 it’s not quite shopping for free.
    0:52:52 And that I’m doing something a little bit better for the environment.
    0:52:55 And so that’s my shopping suggestion.
    0:53:03 But when it comes to overspending in general, I think that the secret is that most people have
    0:53:06 absolutely no idea where their money is actually going.
    0:53:14 So when we teach budgeting and we have a program called Finance Fix where we teach budgeting and
    0:53:21 how to do this in a way that you can actually save something, we put people through this process
    0:53:23 of figuring out where their money is going.
    0:53:27 We use technology to do it so you don’t have to do it by hand.
    0:53:34 And once you see where you’ve been using your money, then you have the tools and the ammunition
    0:53:41 to make changes about where you consciously want to use your money.
    0:53:45 And so it’s not, don’t buy the coffee, right?
    0:53:47 Everybody’s least favorite example.
    0:53:55 It’s if the coffee is the thing that lights up your day, then by all means, buy the coffee.
    0:54:02 But if you could care less and really what you want is a little bit of caffeine to help you
    0:54:06 get out the door, then make it at home and have a sip and go about your day and spend your
    0:54:09 money on something that you actually value.
    0:54:11 I know where all my money is going.
    0:54:13 It’s Sephora and Revolve.
    0:54:16 All my money is just going straight there.
    0:54:19 Okay, let’s talk about paying down debt.
    0:54:20 A lot of people have student loans.
    0:54:22 A lot of people have debts.
    0:54:24 You’ve got this avalanche method.
    0:54:28 Talk to us about the best strategies for paying down debt in your opinion.
    0:54:37 The cheapest way, the cheapest, fastest way to pay off debt is to just stack it highest interest
    0:54:39 rate to lowest interest rate.
    0:54:44 Pay off the highest interest rate debts first while making the minimum payments on the rest.
    0:54:49 Once that high interest rate debt is gone, then you just move on to the next one and so on
    0:54:50 and so on and so on.
    0:54:54 The student loan debts are a little bit of a different beast.
    0:54:58 Long-term debts, student loans, mortgages, car loans.
    0:55:02 You basically want to pay those off on the schedule that you’re given.
    0:55:09 If you’re struggling with your student loan debts and their federal debts, then you want
    0:55:15 to make sure you’re enrolled in an income repayment program through the Department of Education.
    0:55:19 We’re getting some changes to those programs that are helpful.
    0:55:24 As long as you’re enrolled, you should get notified of the changes and they should come your way.
    0:55:36 But don’t let paying student loan debt faster get in the way of doing important things like grabbing the match from your 401k.
    0:55:48 401k because if you look at the return on your money, the way that we think about or the way that we should think about return on your money is equivalent to the interest rate.
    0:55:56 So if you’re paying off a student loan debt at 6%, that’s like getting a 6% return on your money.
    0:56:04 If you’re getting 50 cents on the dollar as a match in your 401k, that’s a 50% return on your money.
    0:56:09 And you can’t not get that because you want to pay off the debt at 6%.
    0:56:11 You just pay off the debt at 6% a little bit slower.
    0:56:14 Let’s talk about improving your credit.
    0:56:20 So I actually recently messed up my credit because I was putting all, yeah, it was really dumb.
    0:56:28 I was spending everything on my business credit cards and I just thought it was good that I wasn’t spending on my own credit cards.
    0:56:31 And like I was like shutting down my personal credit cards.
    0:56:35 And then I realized, oops, I wasn’t supposed to do that.
    0:56:38 You need to actually have credit cards.
    0:56:43 And I always used to, because I have a lot of cash, I would just pay it off, pay it off to zero balance.
    0:56:45 And you’re actually not supposed to do that.
    0:56:47 Oh, no, you are supposed to do that.
    0:56:48 You are supposed to do that.
    0:56:52 Tell me about it because I feel confused about what should we actually be doing with our personal credit.
    0:56:58 You should be using your personal credit cards and you should be paying them off every month.
    0:56:59 Just to zero.
    0:57:01 Pay them off to zero.
    0:57:04 Interest rates are way too high.
    0:57:08 The average credit card interest rate, I just looked this up yesterday, is 28%.
    0:57:09 That’s insane.
    0:57:10 It’s insane.
    0:57:14 You don’t want to be paying interest on a credit card.
    0:57:26 So the way to do this is to understand that there are a couple of factors that go into your credit score and you need to simultaneously manage all of them.
    0:57:35 If you pay late, especially if you pay late more than once, that’s really going to hurt your score.
    0:57:40 The second, and this is where you got in trouble, is credit utilization.
    0:57:46 That’s the percentage of credit that you have available to you that you’re actually using.
    0:57:52 We want to keep that number below 30% at all times.
    0:58:02 So if you have a heavy spending month, sometimes when I go on vacation, I have a heavy spending month that I spend more than 30% of my credit limit on a card.
    0:58:05 If you do that, the thing to do is just pay the bill now.
    0:58:09 Pay it twice a month rather than once a month to bring the utilization down.
    0:58:23 The problem that you got into by closing those credit cards is that you shrunk the pool of available credit that you had and that hurt your score.
    0:58:31 The other thing that you did, another factor, it’s not as big as the first two, but it’s something called length of credit or credit history.
    0:58:37 The longer your credit relationships, the more beneficial it is to your score.
    0:58:43 When you close those cards, if they were the cards that you had had the longest, you hurt that factor too.
    0:58:45 So that’s how you do it.
    0:58:46 Yeah.
    0:58:49 And actually I did have a credit card that was with me for like so long.
    0:58:53 And then the credit card company ended the card.
    0:58:55 And I was like, oh man, I’m really screwed.
    0:58:58 They ended it because you weren’t using it, right?
    0:58:59 No, no.
    0:59:03 Like that type of card retired because I had it for so long.
    0:59:05 And then suddenly I was like, oh my God, I have no credit cards.
    0:59:06 And I didn’t even realize.
    0:59:09 I’m fixing it though.
    0:59:12 It’s not that terrible, but I’m fixing it.
    0:59:12 Cool.
    0:59:15 So let’s talk about investing in general.
    0:59:17 I’m just going to give you a general question.
    0:59:21 I actually asked Susie Orman this question when she came on the show.
    0:59:25 If you had $100,000 to invest, you already had your emergency fund.
    0:59:27 You already had savings, all that.
    0:59:29 You just had $100,000 cash.
    0:59:31 Where would you put it?
    0:59:38 What I’m doing with that kind of money right now is splitting it up and buying the stocks
    0:59:42 that we’ve been picking for our investing club, right?
    0:59:48 I have a diversified portfolio that is set up to get me to the retirement that I want to
    0:59:48 get to.
    0:59:50 I am on track.
    0:59:51 I have met my savings goals.
    0:59:58 So if this is quite literally free money, I’m going to put it into the picks that we’re
    1:00:00 picking for our investing club.
    1:00:06 And so recently, we’ve been looking at stocks like Lululemon.
    1:00:08 We’ve got JPMorgan Chase.
    1:00:14 We’ve got a bunch of stocks in the portfolio, but we add one about every month.
    1:00:16 And sometimes we sell one.
    1:00:18 And I would do that.
    1:00:19 That’s so cool.
    1:00:25 So this investment club is basically, you guys all talk about stocks and give guidance
    1:00:25 to each other.
    1:00:27 How does one join your investment club?
    1:00:29 So you can go to hermoney.com.
    1:00:32 It’s called Investing Fix.
    1:00:36 If anybody wants to try it out, you can do it free for a month.
    1:00:42 But the way it works is that every month we present four different investing options.
    1:00:45 We look at them on four different dimensions.
    1:00:46 How do they make their money?
    1:00:48 What do we like about them?
    1:00:49 What don’t we like about them?
    1:00:52 And would we buy them at the current price?
    1:00:59 And then the club votes on what we add to the portfolio and what we take away from the portfolio.
    1:01:00 It’s a democracy.
    1:01:02 Democracy rules.
    1:01:04 And it’s been a lot of fun.
    1:01:11 Some of the women in our club have stepped up and presented stocks that they’re interested in.
    1:01:14 And some of those have been purchased for the club.
    1:01:18 One of our members suggested United Rentals and we bought that.
    1:01:20 It’s been a huge win.
    1:01:24 So we’re all learning from each other, which is just so amazing.
    1:01:25 That’s so cool.
    1:01:30 So it’s actually like you guys are pooling your money together and investing together?
    1:01:31 We’re not.
    1:01:40 We run a group portfolio that the club itself runs and is invested by the votes that the club decides.
    1:01:46 But a lot of members like me are buying the picks for our own portfolios.
    1:01:47 I love it.
    1:01:49 Well, Jean, this was such an awesome conversation.
    1:01:52 I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests.
    1:01:55 Then at the end of the year, we typically do something fun with it.
    1:02:03 So the first one is, what is one actionable thing our young and profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?
    1:02:07 Start tracking your spending.
    1:02:10 Figuring out where that money is going for real.
    1:02:11 Yeah.
    1:02:19 If you don’t know where it’s going, then you have no control over what it’s doing for you, whether it’s a business expense or a personal expense.
    1:02:25 And I know it’s tedious and I know it’s boring, but sometimes boring is better.
    1:02:28 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
    1:02:30 And this can go beyond financial advice.
    1:02:45 My secret to profiting, and I got to tell you, I lost my mom recently and my lifelong friends came out of the woodwork and haven’t left me alone in a good way, in the best way.
    1:02:53 And my secret is to invest as much energy as absolutely possible in those friends.
    1:02:54 That’s so beautiful.
    1:02:55 It’s so true.
    1:03:01 Sometimes you forget about relationships and nothing in the world is more important, I think, than relationships.
    1:03:02 A hundred percent.
    1:03:05 Jean, where can everybody learn more about you and Her Money?
    1:03:13 So I’m on social pretty much everywhere at Jean Chatzky, and you can find us at hermoney.com.
    1:03:14 Amazing.
    1:03:16 Well, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.
    1:03:18 Thanks for having me.
    1:03:32 Thanks for having me.

    Determined to master her messy personal finances, Jean Chatzky immersed herself in learning about finance, financial freedom, and investing. She worked on Wall Street to understand the stock market, then transitioned to financial journalism. After being fired for being “too expensive,” she turned her side hustles into HerMoney—a safe space where women can build wealth and take control of their money. In this episode, Jean shares actionable insights on achieving financial freedom and building lasting confidence around money.

    In this episode, Hala and Jean will discuss:

    (00:00) Introduction

    01:12 From Journalism to Financial Expertise

    03:06 Skill Stacking

    06:38 The Gender Wage Gap

    11:21 Women Controlling Wealth and Spending

    20:07 Navigating Relationships and Success

    27:03 Women and Investing

    30:09 The Importance of Financial Freedom

    31:36 Homeownership: Is It Worth It?

    35:47 Understanding Your Money Type

    40:15 Budgeting and Avoiding Overspending

    42:39 Strategies for Paying Down Debt

    44:33 Improving Your Credit Score

    47:34 Investing Wisely

    Jean Chatzky is the CEO and co-founder of HerMoney Media, a digital platform focused on enhancing financial planning, literacy, and wellness among women. She is an award-winning personal finance journalist, bestselling author, and host of the HerMoney podcast. With a background that spans Forbes, SmartMoney, and a 25-year tenure on NBC’s Today show, she has earned many accolades, such as the Gracie Award for Outstanding Host. She has authored multiple bestselling books, including Women with Money and Pay It Down! She frequently appears on major platforms like CNN, MSNBC, and The Oprah Winfrey Show. 

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    Entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship podcast, Business, Business podcast, Self Improvement, Self-Improvement, Personal development, Starting a business, Strategy, Investing, Sales, Selling, Psychology, Productivity, Entrepreneurs, AI, Artificial Intelligence, Technology, Marketing, Negotiation, Money, Finance, Side hustle, Startup, mental health, Career, Leadership, Mindset, Health, Growth mindset, Finance, Financial, Personal Finance, Wealth, Stock Market, Scalability, Investment, Financial Freedom, Risk Management, Financial Planning, Business Coaching, Finance podcast, Investing, Saving

  • Moment 209: The Real Reason You’re Gaining Weight (Even If You’re Exercising!)

    Tried everything to lose weight and nothing’s working? It’s not your fault. According to geneticist Giles Yeo, your body is hardwired to hold onto fat—especially as you age. Yeo breaks down why your metabolism slows, how your genes shape your hunger, and why exercise isn’t the fat-loss fix you think it is. If you’ve been eating better, moving more, and still not seeing results… this is the science-backed reality check you’ve been waiting for.

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    Watch the Episodes On YouTube – https://www.youtube.com/c/%20TheDiaryOfACEO/videos

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  • Anti-Business Billionaires: Lessons from Steve Jobs, James Dyson, and Yvon Chouinard

    AI transcript
    0:00:01 They’re like, would you be interested in selling your company?
    0:00:03 The response was, fuck you.
    0:00:05 This is a family heirloom.
    0:00:22 Okay, so what we’re talking about today is, basically, I don’t listen to any business
    0:00:24 podcasts other than Founders.
    0:00:26 It’s the only business podcast I listen to.
    0:00:30 I listen to Founders, and I listen to MMA and True Crime.
    0:00:31 That’s pretty much it.
    0:00:35 And so I view you as my friend, but I also am a fan of yours.
    0:00:39 And you tweeted out this amazing thing.
    0:00:43 It was about the anti-business person, the anti-businessman billionaire.
    0:00:48 So the first tenet of these anti-business billionaires is they have high levels of disagreeableness.
    0:00:55 This is very important because everybody around you, I just used a reference of Michael Dell.
    0:00:56 Michael Dell could be on this list, too.
    0:00:59 I’m reading his autobiography, like I said earlier, and I got to the point where they’re
    0:01:04 like, he’s taking the company private, and it’s so difficult what he’s trying to do.
    0:01:06 And everybody’s just like, why don’t you just give up, Michael?
    0:01:07 You’re already rich.
    0:01:08 You can start another company.
    0:01:10 He’s like, I don’t want to start another company.
    0:01:11 I want this.
    0:01:13 This is my first and last company.
    0:01:15 In his case, that’s very rare to have your first company or your last company.
    0:01:16 This is my last company.
    0:01:17 But then he has a line.
    0:01:20 He goes, I’m going to care about this company after I’m dead.
    0:01:22 I was like, oh, that’s a different level.
    0:01:26 So the disagreeableness, like if we use the three people in the clip, which is like Steve
    0:01:32 Jobs, James Dyson, and Yvonne Chouinart, it’s just like they are hell-bent on making the world.
    0:01:33 They don’t bend to the world, right?
    0:01:34 They make the world bend to them.
    0:01:39 And they refuse to compromise on the product quality, even when it seems absurd.
    0:01:42 And like James Dyson, I got to tell you a crazy story about James Dyson.
    0:01:46 Because, you know, everybody’s like, oh, yeah, Dyson, the guy that like I wash my hands and
    0:01:48 like dries my, it’s a hand dryer in the bathroom everywhere.
    0:01:50 And it’s that cyclonic vacuum cleaner.
    0:01:53 It’s like, no, the guy has built one of the most successful companies of all time.
    0:01:56 I think it’s one of the largest privately owned companies in the world.
    0:01:57 You want to hear some crazy?
    0:01:59 So there’s always rumors, right?
    0:02:00 And again, privately held, so you don’t have to tell.
    0:02:04 And everybody’s like, oh, yeah, you know, he’s probably worth like 10 or 20 billion.
    0:02:06 I was like, you’re off by like a lot.
    0:02:10 So a friend of mine happens to know somebody that works for it.
    0:02:14 And usually you can find, you can find hints, you know, if you look at their family
    0:02:15 office, right?
    0:02:18 And a friend of mine knows somebody at the family office.
    0:02:19 So they’re just like, man, we have a big problem.
    0:02:23 Like they have to deploy like four to five billion dollars every year.
    0:02:24 Right.
    0:02:24 OK.
    0:02:28 And so they’re like, they you look and he’s like, James Dyson now is like the largest
    0:02:29 producer of green peas in Europe.
    0:02:32 He owns the most sheep in the entire world.
    0:02:33 Like you see all these crazy.
    0:02:34 So like, why?
    0:02:35 Where’s the four or five billion dollars coming from?
    0:02:40 It’s like the rumor is that he’s been taking out, you know, four or five, six, seven
    0:02:43 billion dollars a year in dividends, retaining the enterprise value, obviously, because he
    0:02:45 never saw a company still is 100 percent of it.
    0:02:49 So I was just this like super fancy private investor only conference.
    0:02:49 Right.
    0:02:50 There’s only a handful of people there.
    0:02:56 One guy controls a ton of capital and he listens to the podcast who we were talking and he has
    0:03:02 a problem where like the more assets and management have the bigger you have to talk about this
    0:03:05 over and over again, like to move the needle, the opportunity has to be just so large.
    0:03:09 And so they were buying like smaller family companies, maybe in like the billion to two billion
    0:03:09 range.
    0:03:12 And so now he’s like, I have too much, too many assets or management.
    0:03:14 I have to like, I have to swing bigger.
    0:03:17 So they go to approach Dyson.
    0:03:21 OK, I’m going to paraphrase the response back from Dyson is going to answer your question about
    0:03:22 high levels of disagreeableness.
    0:03:23 Right.
    0:03:25 They’re like, would you be interested in selling your company?
    0:03:27 The response was, fuck you.
    0:03:29 This is a family heirloom.
    0:03:35 So it’s like, again, he’s not doing it for money.
    0:03:36 He’s run out of the money he will ever spend.
    0:03:38 He’s doing it because he loves it.
    0:03:41 He wants you just talked about maybe if your kids want to work in the business, you see that
    0:03:41 a lot.
    0:03:43 They they’re doing it because they want to pass it on to the next generation.
    0:03:46 They want to die still owning this thing.
    0:03:47 There is not.
    0:03:48 You can’t go to him and be like, I’ll give you two trillion.
    0:03:49 It doesn’t matter.
    0:03:54 It’s just there’s no amount of money that you give James Dyson to stop working on Dyson, just
    0:03:56 like there would have been no amount of money you could have gave Steve Jobs to stop.
    0:04:00 If you go to Steve Jobs, imagine going to Steve Jobs and like, hey, this iPhone, you
    0:04:03 great. You created the most successful consumer product of all time.
    0:04:07 How much could I would I have to pay you to not do this?
    0:04:11 There’s just no could you there’s no number that you could have spit out that he’d be like,
    0:04:12 OK, yeah, I’ll retire.
    0:04:14 It’s like, I just this is what I like to do.
    0:04:17 Who’s the most disagreeable person you’ve ever studied?
    0:04:20 Oh, that’s a good question.
    0:04:25 I mean, James Dyson’s got to be up there because if you see the bookshelf that’s in back of me,
    0:04:28 it’s an order by episode number starting in the upper left hand corner.
    0:04:29 So it goes all the way down.
    0:04:34 And so I’m I’m going to hit like 400 biographies read of history of good entrepreneurs this
    0:04:38 year. And my number one recommendation is still his first autobiography.
    0:04:41 He wrote an autobiography when he was 45 and he wrote another autobiography when he was 75.
    0:04:43 They’re both great. But the first one’s really great.
    0:04:48 The reason I recommend that one is because it’s all struggle.
    0:04:52 The 90 percent of the book is just him failing over and over and over again and him refusing
    0:04:53 to give up.
    0:04:55 And what’s he obsessed with?
    0:04:57 Like because obsessing over vacuums is strange.
    0:05:03 So he would describe himself as an inventor and an engineer, definitely as an inventor.
    0:05:08 And so I think what I would say is what he’s obsessed with is is making the world bend
    0:05:09 to what he wants to happen.
    0:05:13 And so in many cases, if you look at his early career, he was inventing a bunch of other successful
    0:05:17 inventions and they were like taken from him because he didn’t keep control of the company.
    0:05:21 There’s like all these little things are happening to him that cause him a lot of emotional pain
    0:05:24 that then he fixes in the new company.
    0:05:29 And so for him, it’s just like he spent 14 years before he had the ideas like he’s kind
    0:05:32 of similar to Steve Jobs and Evon Gennard.
    0:05:36 They’re offended at the mediocrity of most of everything around us.
    0:05:39 They always talk about like, why is every product we use suck?
    0:05:40 They talk about over and over and over again.
    0:05:42 And so his idea is like, I bought a vacuum cleaner from Hoover.
    0:05:48 It gets clogged after the first time I use it because it has a bag.
    0:05:49 This is stupid.
    0:05:50 Why do all vacuum cleaners have bags?
    0:05:55 And those then from that thought, it’s 14 years, 5,127 prototypes.
    0:06:00 So he has a, the world’s first cyclonic vacuum up to his incredibly difficult standards that
    0:06:01 he owns a hundred percent of.
    0:06:05 When does having that trait of high disagreeableness go too far?
    0:06:06 Well, that’s a good question.
    0:06:07 I don’t know.
    0:06:09 Does his family love him?
    0:06:12 Like, do they, like, does he have a good relationship with his children?
    0:06:14 It’s like Steve Jobs did, did not.
    0:06:19 And so can you be highly disagreeable and still loved by your children?
    0:06:22 Can you be highly disagreeable and still be proud of how you treat one another?
    0:06:28 So there, there is a devastating, um, line in Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson,
    0:06:31 because Walter was collaborating with him as Steve was dying.
    0:06:36 And he told Walter, one of the reasons he wanted to do this biography is because he wanted
    0:06:40 his kid, he sacrificed so much of his time at Apple that he wanted his kids to know the
    0:06:42 kind of person he was and what was important to him.
    0:06:43 That’s devastating line.
    0:06:47 Dyson, from what I understand, uh, has great relationships with, he’s still married to
    0:06:49 the same wife, has great relationships with his kids.
    0:06:51 Some of them work inside the company.
    0:06:51 Some don’t.
    0:06:55 Um, but yeah, again, I spent a lot of the, as you know, because you listen to the podcast,
    0:06:57 I spent a lot of time talking about their childhood, their relationship with their father.
    0:07:01 Dyson’s dad passed away when Dyson was like nine.
    0:07:07 And he said, you know, he’s writing a biography when he’s 75 and he still cries and gets sad that
    0:07:10 his dad, he didn’t get to know his dad as an adult.
    0:07:14 His dad didn’t get to see him grow up, see his success, meet his grandchildren.
    0:07:18 And so I think having that experience was just like, man, I want to make sure my kids don’t
    0:07:21 have that massive hole that I had in my life.
    0:07:22 Not in any fault of his own.
    0:07:24 His dad died of cancer from at a young age.
    0:07:27 No, so I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive, but yeah, you, you, you definitely see a lot
    0:07:31 of these highly disagreeable people like James Cameron is probably the best podcast I’ve ever
    0:07:34 done in terms of like what I like craft.
    0:07:35 And I’m really proud of that episode.
    0:07:39 I did like two or three years ago and I start the episode kind of, you know, giving you a
    0:07:43 hint of the highly disagreeable personality where I’m like reading from this GQ article.
    0:07:48 And it’s like, James Cameron has moved to New Zealand with his fifth wife.
    0:07:53 And it’s like, nobody could have a fifth wife without, that’s that, that should tell you
    0:07:55 if you’re reading between your lines, that’s a difficult person to deal.
    0:07:58 All right, everybody.
    0:08:03 I know when you think to yourself, what is the best video series you think of us?
    0:08:08 When you think of who is the best creator you think of us and the Webby awards are happening
    0:08:09 right now.
    0:08:10 It’s like an online awards thing.
    0:08:15 And we are nominated for best video series and best creator, but it’s stiff competition.
    0:08:16 Sam, who are we going up against?
    0:08:16 Okay.
    0:08:22 So we are up against, I shade my vag for this, which is sort of interesting.
    0:08:24 I’ve listened to a few episodes, but honestly.
    0:08:25 A few.
    0:08:26 A few.
    0:08:32 We’re up against Club Shea Shea, which frankly, if you’re listening to this, I think you should
    0:08:34 just, you should just vote for Club Shea Shea.
    0:08:35 I agree.
    0:08:39 So please go vote for the Webby, but don’t vote for us.
    0:08:40 Vote for Club Shea Shea.
    0:08:42 All right, back to the pod.
    0:08:44 All right.
    0:08:49 Number two, they have extreme self-confidence and they do what works for them.
    0:08:52 So what’s an example of that?
    0:08:56 So that line that they do what works for them, there’s this guy named Tim Grover, who was
    0:08:58 the trainer of both Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.
    0:09:00 And he wrote a book all about comparing and contrasting them.
    0:09:01 It was really fascinating.
    0:09:06 And he says what they had in common was that they do what works for them regardless of what
    0:09:06 other people do.
    0:09:07 Like they were indifferent.
    0:09:11 There’s another great line in that book that I think is a lot of people that you and I are
    0:09:14 going to talk about have in common, where it’s like everyone wanted to be like Mike.
    0:09:16 Mike didn’t want to be like anybody else.
    0:09:21 And so in situations like that, which like they are, I would say there’s this line in
    0:09:26 and Dyson’s book where he calls his method of invention, his method of company building.
    0:09:29 He calls it the Edisonian principle of design.
    0:09:32 He is not a big, hey, I have a master plan.
    0:09:37 He’s like, I’m going to just do an experiment, get immediate feedback and do a constant set of
    0:09:37 iterations.
    0:09:40 There’s this great book that I’ve read three times.
    0:09:42 I think every single entrepreneur on the planet should read it.
    0:09:44 It’s called Creative Selection.
    0:09:46 It is written by Ken Kosienda.
    0:09:51 He was a programmer who demoed jobs and in that book is the most detail he helped.
    0:09:57 He was the one that programmed the initial Safari browser and then he created Safari browser
    0:09:59 and then the keyboard for the first iPhone.
    0:10:03 What he shows in there is like, it was just all the great products that came out of Apple
    0:10:08 were just a series of iterative demos to Steve and Steve applying his personal taste.
    0:10:12 This is why I think when you talk to a lot of investors and to me, when I talk to him like,
    0:10:16 man, you think about business way too academically, you know, like as if you could sit at a
    0:10:19 whiteboard and like plan and master plan everything out, it’s like, I don’t see that in the books
    0:10:20 I read.
    0:10:24 It’s like these little, a series of just small decisions every day, getting a bunch of feedback
    0:10:28 and then essentially just changing course slightly every single day.
    0:10:31 And then doing that over a long period of time and constantly proven, you get to amazing products
    0:10:32 and amazing businesses.
    0:10:37 Are the people who have extreme self-confidence, were they self-confident at a young age or did
    0:10:41 something happen like, I guess, born versus becoming that?
    0:10:42 All three of those.
    0:10:47 So if we’re, if Yvonne Chouinard, Steve Jobs, and James Dyson, excessively self-confident
    0:10:48 at a young age.
    0:10:52 And I think part of this has to do, and I’m speaking from my own personal experience, it’s
    0:10:59 like you grow up with almost like you’re seeking revenge for the circumstances in which you’ve
    0:10:59 been born in.
    0:11:00 You know, Steve Jobs was adopted.
    0:11:04 Yvonne Chouinard had no, his family didn’t have any money.
    0:11:06 James Dyson doesn’t have a dad.
    0:11:09 And you just like, everybody’s around you is like, oh, you’re not good enough.
    0:11:11 And you’re like, no, I’m pretty sure I’m better than you are.
    0:11:16 And I will show you and I’m willing to work and make sure to prove what I believe.
    0:11:17 I always say belief comes before ability.
    0:11:19 And, you know, I, I see this over and over again.
    0:11:21 People are like, you shouldn’t be confident.
    0:11:23 You should generate evidence first.
    0:11:25 I’m like, no, you have that completely backwards.
    0:11:30 They believe that they can do great things way before the, like, there’s any proof in the
    0:11:30 physical world.
    0:11:31 Let me give an example.
    0:11:36 Uh, in the Michael Dell book, he hits the fortune 500 when he’s like 26 years old.
    0:11:43 And basically for the listener, Michael Dell, I believe at the age of 16, 17, 18 in college
    0:11:47 in a college dorm, he was selling computer parts to help people assemble computers.
    0:11:48 Right.
    0:11:53 He was, he started Dell in as a, really the prehistory of Dell really happened when he’s like
    0:11:53 16, 17.
    0:11:57 He officially started as a freshman in his freshman dorm at university of Texas.
    0:12:02 But the fortune 500 thing is important because it’s like, yeah, he goes, could the kid that
    0:12:08 grew up reading fortune magazine possibly predict that I’d start a company that broke into the
    0:12:08 fortune 500?
    0:12:11 He goes, yeah, I always thought big.
    0:12:12 He doesn’t try to hide.
    0:12:13 He’s like, yeah, I had a lot of confidence.
    0:12:14 Like I knew I could do this.
    0:12:16 I believed I could do this.
    0:12:17 Now he, did he think he’d hit a 26?
    0:12:19 Probably not, but he got there even faster.
    0:12:20 That’s the point.
    0:12:23 He had the belief first and then he demonstrated the ability.
    0:12:27 You also say that the, so the third principle is they’re obsessed with product quality.
    0:12:34 And I hear people say this a lot, but I’ve, because I’ve never had a job, I’ve never been
    0:12:40 able to like, uh, uh, intern or apprentice at one of these folks who are obsessed with product.
    0:12:43 I’ve never been able to see firsthand what they’re like on a day-to-day basis.
    0:12:53 Can you give me an example of what they do each day in order to actually be product obsessed?
    0:12:56 You know, I love that you frame that question like that.
    0:12:56 What do they do each day?
    0:12:58 I was thinking about this this morning.
    0:13:00 Um, I was thinking about the conversation we’re gonna have today.
    0:13:07 And I think what all the, the, the entrepreneurs I admire have in common is how they want to spend
    0:13:09 their time is working on their company.
    0:13:11 So like I get invited to a lot of things.
    0:13:15 I say no to most of them because like everything that’s not working on the podcast is a giant
    0:13:15 distraction.
    0:13:19 And so if you go and actually look, Tim Cook said this after Steve jobs died.
    0:13:23 He’s like, if you took an inventory of how Steve spent his time, he was at Apple.
    0:13:26 And then when he was an Apple, he was at home with his family.
    0:13:27 He wasn’t going to conferences.
    0:13:29 He wasn’t trying to be on the scene.
    0:13:30 Yvon Chouinard, what is he doing?
    0:13:32 He’s working on product and he’s testing the product.
    0:13:34 James Dyson, 75.
    0:13:36 The guy’s probably worth a hundred billion dollars if we’re being honest.
    0:13:37 And where’s he at?
    0:13:40 He’s on the front, he’s on literally the factory floor.
    0:13:42 And then he’s with the design team.
    0:13:45 The important thing, and you see this, this is the problem with modern day entrepreneurship
    0:13:51 industry is they like, like everything except actual what their company actually does.
    0:13:54 So if you can find love, right?
    0:13:56 In the activity itself, you’re able to do it for a long time.
    0:13:58 I got to have, this is the main thing.
    0:14:00 I had lunch with Sam Zell, who we could talk about too.
    0:14:02 That two hour lunch changed my life, right?
    0:14:08 And his main advice to me was never relinquish the freedom on what you work on.
    0:14:13 He goes, the more successful you become, people are going to try to constantly dangle opportunities
    0:14:15 that are distractions in front of you.
    0:14:16 And they’re going to do that for two reasons.
    0:14:18 They’re going to try to offer you more money and more status.
    0:14:20 He’s like, retain your freedom.
    0:14:21 And he said something that’s fucking brilliant.
    0:14:23 He goes, go for freedom.
    0:14:27 If you have freedom, you can control what you work on.
    0:14:30 If you control what you work on, you can choose to work on what you love.
    0:14:32 If you love it, you’ll do it all the time.
    0:14:34 If you do it all the time, you’ll get good at it.
    0:14:36 And money will come as a result of that.
    0:14:40 And so all of the people that I admire, it’s like, they don’t want to go, you know, they’re
    0:14:41 not trying to go out fundraising.
    0:14:44 They’re not trying to like go party all the time.
    0:14:47 They’re literally like just obsessed with what they’re doing.
    0:14:52 And so everything that like, if you take the inventory of their time, it’s like the time
    0:14:53 is just spent on the company.
    0:14:53 Cause I like that.
    0:14:55 Let me give you my example for me, right?
    0:14:57 You know this because you have a podcast.
    0:15:01 We can log into our podcast host right now and change, you can charge, you could change
    0:15:03 the name of my first million, right?
    0:15:05 To Sam’s club, right?
    0:15:05 You can change it, whatever you want.
    0:15:07 I can change founders, whatever I want.
    0:15:12 The thing you cannot change is the RSS, the URL slug that for the, for the first time you
    0:15:14 set up your RSS feed, right?
    0:15:17 And that URL slug will have the first name of your podcast.
    0:15:18 My podcast went through multiple names.
    0:15:20 The first one was autotelic.
    0:15:25 The definition of autotelic is an activity done for the sake of itself.
    0:15:26 I was telling you right from the rip.
    0:15:29 I don’t care if no one listens, I’m going to do this.
    0:15:32 I, it is in inside of me and I have to get it out.
    0:15:33 I’m going to do this.
    0:15:37 I would be reading these books and talking about history and entrepreneurship and founders
    0:15:39 and crazy psychotic people.
    0:15:40 Cause that’s what I love to do.
    0:15:42 I’d be doing it if no one listened.
    0:15:45 I love hearing you talk about this.
    0:15:49 Do you think that you’ve gotten more crazy and more obsessed reading about these people?
    0:15:50 For sure.
    0:15:50 For sure.
    0:15:55 So first of all, you know this, cause we’ve talked about podcasting a bunch and, and a
    0:15:56 lot of people like try to like part-time it.
    0:15:58 And I think literally like podcasting is a miracle.
    0:16:01 The idea that anything you want to learn, right?
    0:16:02 Me and you grew up similarly.
    0:16:03 We didn’t have access to a lot of money.
    0:16:04 We didn’t, I don’t think you went to an Ivy league school.
    0:16:07 Like I couldn’t go to an Ivy league school at all, right?
    0:16:08 My wife went to an Ivy league school.
    0:16:12 And when I met her and she told me first, I, she said she went to Penn and I was like,
    0:16:15 is that where that football rapist coach guy goes?
    0:16:19 And she’s like, no, it’s like, it’s, she’s like, it’s like, it’s like a, it’s like a big
    0:16:20 school.
    0:16:20 It’s like a big shot.
    0:16:22 Like we’re like, we were part of the Ivy league.
    0:16:24 I was like, what the fuck is Ivy league?
    0:16:25 Is that Hogwarts?
    0:16:26 I don’t know what that means.
    0:16:29 Dude, I have a rather embarrassing story.
    0:16:32 Like, first of all, not only did my parents never grade, graduated college, they never
    0:16:33 graduated high school.
    0:16:37 So the entire time I was growing up, they never mentioned the word college to me one time.
    0:16:40 And so I remember being in high school and they’re like, what colleges are you applying
    0:16:40 to?
    0:16:44 I’m like, what the one I can drive to, cause I got to go to school night.
    0:16:45 Cause I got to work full-time during the day.
    0:16:46 Like, what are you talking about?
    0:16:50 I, I moved in, I went to student housing and I, uh, my roommate was from like Colorado somewhere.
    0:16:52 That was the first time I ever knew.
    0:16:56 And this is really embarrassing that people didn’t work and go to school.
    0:16:58 Like he just went to classes.
    0:16:59 That’s all he did.
    0:17:00 Like he had nothing else.
    0:17:01 I couldn’t even fathom that.
    0:17:06 So the reason I’m so obsessed with podcasting and everything else is like, you have all any subject
    0:17:06 you want to learn about.
    0:17:11 You have somebody that is usually to spend five, 10, you know, 10 plus years studying
    0:17:12 that.
    0:17:14 And you can learn from them for free on demand.
    0:17:18 Anytime you want to, how could you not be absolutely obsessed with that?
    0:17:19 So here’s your question.
    0:17:22 The reason I started reading this, and I didn’t even understand this.
    0:17:24 A friend of mine is the one that told me this.
    0:17:28 He, he visited me in Miami and he’s like, it’s pretty, this is like two years ago.
    0:17:29 And he’s like, it’s pretty obvious what you’re doing.
    0:17:30 I go, what?
    0:17:33 He goes, you didn’t have any mentors or any good, good examples.
    0:17:37 So if you’re like how you are, which is kind of like psychopathically obsessed, he’s like,
    0:17:41 so you just started reading and trying to find like good examples for yourself.
    0:17:45 And so there’s a line, there’s a guy named Larry Gagosian who built this like multi-billion
    0:17:48 dollar art business that he controls a hundred percent of.
    0:17:55 And on the profile that I read to make the episode, there’s a line about him.
    0:18:00 It says he got so good at selling art to the masters of the universe that he became one.
    0:18:05 He starts out literally selling art in a parking lot and he got so successful.
    0:18:06 He’s now a peer.
    0:18:10 So the reason I’m doing this is like, I’m trying to build the best product for the best people
    0:18:10 in the world.
    0:18:14 And so, yeah, like it is, you know, I take a lot of the ideas from the podcast and just
    0:18:18 apply it to my own business, which just happens to be the podcast where I derive the insights
    0:18:19 from to begin with.
    0:18:23 The next one is retention of total control.
    0:18:30 What are the trade-offs of owning everything and being maniacal about the details versus
    0:18:31 delegation?
    0:18:37 Because oftentimes, for example, my favorite author, business author is Felix Dennis.
    0:18:39 He wrote the book, How to Get Rich.
    0:18:42 He’s not nearly as serious as these other guys.
    0:18:47 He’s like kind of like a Mick Jagger and Richard Branson combined.
    0:18:50 He’s like a rock and roll partier, but he became a billionaire.
    0:18:56 He says that delegation is the reason why he’s anything is he’s like I’m a master delegator,
    0:19:01 which I imagine a Richard Branson type of person would say a similar type of thing.
    0:19:09 Whereas you have Elon Musk or maybe Coco Chanel or a couple other folks where they are good
    0:19:15 examples of being in total control and maniacal about the details.
    0:19:19 I think Estee Lauder, I believe she was a pretty nutty.
    0:19:23 What are the pros and cons and trade-offs and which do you prefer?
    0:19:29 I love that you asked this question because this is the great thing about entrepreneurship.
    0:19:31 It’s like you get to decide what’s best for you.
    0:19:33 Like there is not one way.
    0:19:35 There’s not one right way.
    0:19:38 I could give you examples of people I covered that delegated everything and people that delegated
    0:19:39 nothing.
    0:19:40 I just did Todd Graves.
    0:19:41 Have you ever eaten a Raising Cane juice?
    0:19:42 You used to live in Austin.
    0:19:44 You’re a fellow fat boy.
    0:19:50 Well, I was a former fellow fat boy, but I saw him talk.
    0:19:52 I think I’m Theo Vaughn or something like that.
    0:19:54 And I was like, wow, you’re amazing.
    0:19:59 And so I went to Raising Cane’s and started eating it just because he was maniacal.
    0:20:04 Like you don’t think of a fast food restaurant as being focused on the product, but there is
    0:20:05 a need for it for sure.
    0:20:08 But he was like, we only do these types of fries.
    0:20:09 We only do chicken.
    0:20:13 We only, and like, it’s the simplest thing where I’m like, how hard could this possibly
    0:20:15 be that you need 30 years to master this?
    0:20:16 Let’s go figure it out.
    0:20:19 So I just did an episode on him, which I think is going to be one of the most popular
    0:20:20 episodes ever.
    0:20:23 Just because I, when people would ask me like, who’s, you study dead entrepreneurs.
    0:20:25 Like, what about the living ones that you like?
    0:20:27 And I’d bring up Todd Graves and like the chicken finger guy.
    0:20:31 I’m like, no, no, he’s got a, he’s got a really relatable demeanor.
    0:20:32 Yeah.
    0:20:33 You want to hang out with him.
    0:20:38 But also I’m, even if I was, even if he was a jerk, the way he built his business, you
    0:20:41 know, he owns over 90% of a business that’s worth at least $10 billion.
    0:20:43 It’s growing 30% year over year.
    0:20:46 And he’s been doing the same thing, you know, for 30 years and I just love everything.
    0:20:47 I’m obsessed with simplicity.
    0:20:48 I just love everything about him.
    0:20:52 But the funny thing is in one of the interviews I found with him, he literally says, you know,
    0:20:55 people told him when he was younger, you’re, you’re, you’re a micromanager.
    0:20:56 You have to delegate.
    0:20:59 You can’t possibly do the stuff you’re doing now.
    0:21:00 And he has a great line.
    0:21:01 He goes, delegate.
    0:21:02 What kind of word is that?
    0:21:05 Like, he’s just like, that, that doesn’t even make sense to me.
    0:21:08 And he goes, and all the people, the experts that gave me that advice, I’m bigger than they
    0:21:09 are now.
    0:21:12 And so he’s literally given this interview and they interrupt the interview because.
    0:21:17 They had some event and his social media team was showing them the reel of the video
    0:21:19 reel that was about to come out.
    0:21:20 This guy’s, you know, running a business.
    0:21:27 He has a 50,000 employees, 800 stores, you know, unbelievable amount of responsibility.
    0:21:29 And he’s like, it doesn’t go out until I approve it.
    0:21:32 He’s approving every single Steve Jobs did the exact same thing.
    0:21:35 He wouldn’t let Apple guys go out without approving it.
    0:21:37 He, there’s a, there’s another thing.
    0:21:40 Um, every single location, I approve every single new location.
    0:21:43 Uh, you mentioned Elon Musk, early days of SpaceX.
    0:21:47 He personally, Elon personally interviewed the first 3000 employees of SpaceX.
    0:21:50 Sam Walton, go back even further.
    0:21:54 He approved, he picked out, I think the first few thousand Walmarts.
    0:21:57 So a lot of them are, I would consider micromanagers.
    0:22:00 There are some that, you know, delegate, delegate widely.
    0:22:03 What’s more important than that though, is like, it depends on your personality type.
    0:22:05 Like for me, I am a complete micromanager.
    0:22:10 I’m one of the only podcasters still like still making podcasts that actually edits his
    0:22:11 own podcast.
    0:22:14 Every, every, every, every other podcaster tells me you’re a fucking idiot.
    0:22:15 Why are you doing that?
    0:22:17 And it’s just like, I’m completely obsessed with it.
    0:22:20 And I hate it, but I love it at the same time.
    0:22:24 I, it’s the, the part about podcasting I like the least, but it’s so important for me to
    0:22:27 completely control the final product.
    0:22:30 Um, so again, I, I, I don’t think there’s one right way here.
    0:22:33 It’s just like, really, you have to think about like, how do you want to run your business?
    0:22:39 Another thing that you said, uh, was that they, uh, refused to make me too products.
    0:22:47 Is there a story that you have where standing out by having a different product was key to them
    0:22:50 winning or also nearly ruin them?
    0:22:52 Let’s, I don’t know about anybody ruin them.
    0:22:56 Um, let’s use the, the, the, the pre prehistory of Patagonia, right?
    0:22:59 Which is worth a couple of billion dollars, privately held company, you know?
    0:23:04 And as you know, cause it’s in the book in the episode, it’s like, he didn’t, he was kind
    0:23:05 of like a communist.
    0:23:06 He didn’t even want to start a business.
    0:23:08 He was a, he calls himself a dirt bag.
    0:23:10 He was like, I was a dirt bag climber.
    0:23:11 I lived in a van.
    0:23:14 I traveled around just trying to climb mountains.
    0:23:15 And, you know.
    0:23:17 Which by the way, that is, there’s a.
    0:23:17 Dichotomy there.
    0:23:21 If you weren’t, if you’re a communist, why do you fully own your company versus giving
    0:23:22 out equity?
    0:23:24 Cause he’s obsessed with, exactly.
    0:23:26 There’s a, it’s almost like a paradox, right?
    0:23:28 Uh, the, uh, yeah.
    0:23:29 Cause he’s obsessed with control.
    0:23:31 So that, that go all ties back to control.
    0:23:33 Now, sometimes you can maintain control.
    0:23:33 Public company.
    0:23:35 Mark Zuckerberg has complete control of Facebook.
    0:23:36 Public company.
    0:23:38 Steve Jobs had complete control of Apple.
    0:23:39 Public company.
    0:23:40 Dyson, obviously private.
    0:23:41 Bloomberg, private.
    0:23:42 You know, uh, Patagonia, private.
    0:23:47 But if you start there, it’s like his, his whole thing was just like, Hey, I’m, my life
    0:23:53 is literally hangs in the balance of these clips that people use for mountain climbing.
    0:23:54 He’s like, these clips are plastic.
    0:23:55 They suck.
    0:23:55 They break.
    0:23:56 This is not good.
    0:23:59 And they, they, they would optimize for, for cost.
    0:24:00 Cause most dirtbag climbers have no money.
    0:24:02 And so it would be like 75 cents each.
    0:24:03 And what did he do?
    0:24:05 You, you, you ask him what his profession is.
    0:24:06 He said, I’m a blacksmith.
    0:24:08 Cause that was his, his trade is craft.
    0:24:10 He’s like, Hey, I could do a better job than this.
    0:24:11 He starts using higher end steel.
    0:24:14 And now he sells what it used to cost 75 cents.
    0:24:18 Cause it was differentiated for $4 more than four X.
    0:24:20 What, what the market is used to paying.
    0:24:25 And he wound up sealing up like 80 to 90% market share because his was so much better.
    0:24:29 So they, if they feel that the, they’re not starting companies just to start companies,
    0:24:31 they’re starting companies to make products.
    0:24:33 And so therefore they’re not going to make a product.
    0:24:34 If somebody else is already doing that.
    0:24:36 No one made the products that Steve Jobs made.
    0:24:38 No one made the products that James Dyson made.
    0:24:40 No one made the products that Yvonne Chouinard made.
    0:24:43 And I talked to founders all the time and even podcasters.
    0:24:46 And I’m like, man, why are it, especially in, in, in our trade.
    0:24:48 It’s like, why aren’t podcasters thinking more about differentiation?
    0:24:51 When I started my podcast in 2016, one, I thought it was too late.
    0:24:51 Right.
    0:24:53 It was like, Oh my God, I missed the boat.
    0:24:55 But then I looked around and I was like, what is everybody doing?
    0:24:56 Everybody’s doing the same thing.
    0:24:58 It’s like two people, one person interviewing another.
    0:25:01 This is why my first million first came on my radar.
    0:25:04 When I came on your podcast two years ago, I mentioned that I listened to over a hundred
    0:25:05 hours of it because it was truly differentiated.
    0:25:08 It’s like two guys have great chemistry.
    0:25:08 They’re funny.
    0:25:09 They’re both entrepreneurs.
    0:25:13 And sometimes they’re going to just shoot the shit and talk about ideas and brainstorm.
    0:25:14 Sometimes they’ll bring people in.
    0:25:16 Like it was a very unique format.
    0:25:18 You’ve seen since then, obviously, because the success of the show, like what happens?
    0:25:22 Like you have a bunch of people trying to do it and then none of them achieve the same
    0:25:25 success because they’re not, first of all, they’re, they’re not, they’re the copiers.
    0:25:28 They’re not the ones that actually came up with the format and came up with the idea.
    0:25:34 So one thing I would just say is it’s like, if the product already exists, I would only make
    0:25:37 it if you see that there’s a giant hole and a way to like make it better.
    0:25:39 In the case of James Dyson, there’s everybody had vacuum cleaner.
    0:25:41 They were all crappy compared to his.
    0:25:45 I paid, listen, you can go on Amazon right now and buy a vacuum cleaner for 40 bucks.
    0:25:46 I have a Dyson, it was $600.
    0:25:48 It’s literally the best.
    0:25:49 It’s the best.
    0:25:55 Do you think that there’s a common theme amongst, so everyone, most, most of the people you’ve
    0:26:01 named and maybe most of the people you cover on Founders, they’re creating higher end products
    0:26:04 where the margins are probably a bit higher.
    0:26:14 So I have a $600 Dyson, I have, you know, Patagonia now is more mid-tier maybe, but you’ve covered
    0:26:19 a lot of, you know, luxury brands and I think that a lot of like LVMH, like luxury brands
    0:26:22 tend to be the biggest and best businesses, it appears.
    0:26:22 Yeah.
    0:26:28 Is there a commonality of you being different and thus being able to charge more and profit
    0:26:28 more?
    0:26:34 I don’t, like the one person, if you ask like my own personal Mount Rushmore of like
    0:26:37 history’s greatest entrepreneurs is they actually had like, uh, some of them obviously have big
    0:26:38 margins like Apple, right?
    0:26:42 But then like, think of Sam Walton, like Sam Walton had the tiniest margins.
    0:26:43 Why?
    0:26:47 Because like his idea was like, Hey, I’m going to be totally committed to this one simple
    0:26:48 idea, which is like everyday low price.
    0:26:50 And so the margins are small.
    0:26:52 Raising Cane is one of my favorite entrepreneurs.
    0:26:54 His margins like less than 10%.
    0:27:00 So yeah, I don’t, I think these ideas can work for, it really just depends on the industry
    0:27:00 and the business.
    0:27:03 But like you see them appear over and over again, whether it’s a high margin business, a
    0:27:08 low margin business, if it’s physical goods, if it’s luxury goods, if it’s software, it’s
    0:27:10 just like kind of the same personality type over and over again.
    0:27:16 I’m going to combine the last two, which is this, the, the first of the two was they wouldn’t
    0:27:17 sell at any price.
    0:27:23 And this is the second one, their exit strategy is death, which I love.
    0:27:25 I absolutely love.
    0:27:28 Is this particularly with AI?
    0:27:31 I don’t know if you’ve seen, I know you’re not like with it when it cut, because you’re
    0:27:32 so focused.
    0:27:35 Like you, I think you’ve said, you don’t pay attention to the news.
    0:27:36 You don’t pay attention to social media too much.
    0:27:39 There’s this thing called the vibe coding.
    0:27:40 Have you seen vibe coding?
    0:27:41 I’ve seen that.
    0:27:41 Yes.
    0:27:41 Yeah.
    0:27:47 So it’s like young kids of which we’ve had a few of them on who in a matter of six months
    0:27:53 can go from zero to a million a month in revenue because it’s so fast and easy to make apps.
    0:27:54 Yeah.
    0:28:00 New York City founders, if you’ve listened to my first million before, you know, I’ve got
    0:28:04 this company called Hampton and Hampton is a community for founders and CEOs.
    0:28:08 A lot of the stories and ideas that I get for this podcast, I actually got it from people
    0:28:10 who I met in Hampton.
    0:28:12 We have this big community of a thousand plus people and it’s amazing.
    0:28:17 But the main part is this eight person core group that becomes your board of advisors for
    0:28:18 your life and for your business.
    0:28:19 And it’s life changing.
    0:28:26 Now to the folks in New York City, I’m building a in real life core group in New York City.
    0:28:30 And so if you meet one of the following criteria, your business either does 3 million in revenue
    0:28:35 or you’ve raised 3 million in funding, or you’ve started and sold a company for at least
    0:28:37 $10 million, then you are eligible to apply.
    0:28:40 So go to joinhampton.com and apply.
    0:28:43 I’m going to be reviewing all of the applications myself.
    0:28:45 So put that you heard about this on MFM.
    0:28:47 So I know to give you a little extra love.
    0:28:48 Now back to the show.
    0:28:56 Do you think that people today are thinking shorter term than before or has there always
    0:29:01 been a gap of a very few amount of people are willing to think long term versus short term?
    0:29:02 I think both.
    0:29:06 I think, yeah, undoubtedly more larger percentage of humanity is thinking short term and that
    0:29:08 we’ve always as a species been wired to be short term.
    0:29:12 Jeff Bezos has a great idea of this is why he would be constantly willing to have a longer
    0:29:13 term view.
    0:29:17 His point was that like, if you’re planning on a year, if you’re investing in a product
    0:29:21 that may not, you know, reap any benefits over a year, you have a lot of competition.
    0:29:23 Five years, less competition.
    0:29:24 Ten years, no competition.
    0:29:27 Like just nobody is thinking that long term.
    0:29:29 So if we have a long, I think he calls it long term orientation.
    0:29:32 If we have a long term orientation, then I want to do that because we just have by default,
    0:29:33 by sheer numbers.
    0:29:35 I have less amount of competitors.
    0:29:36 Now I need to back up.
    0:29:40 I am only interested in people that do things for a long term and I’m interested in your
    0:29:40 last business.
    0:29:45 I am not interested in your, you know, your startup, your first business.
    0:29:49 In many cases, what I’m interested in is like, what is the thing that is going to like the
    0:29:53 reason I become so close with the founders of ramp is because we have this deep partnership.
    0:29:55 It’s like one of the things I love is I talked to Kareem.
    0:29:56 I’m actually seeing him tonight.
    0:30:00 Who’s the co-founder and CTO of ramp and one of the most brilliant technical minds that I
    0:30:04 know, and one of the things way before we became friends, way before we became partners,
    0:30:08 he’s just like ramps the last, my last business.
    0:30:13 Like, like this is, I have all, you know, 98, 99% of my net worth into it.
    0:30:15 I spent all my days.
    0:30:16 I’m not thinking about anything else.
    0:30:17 Like, that’s what I’m very interested in.
    0:30:21 And many cases to get to that last business, you usually have to start.
    0:30:23 Kareem had already started, start and sold a company.
    0:30:25 Like usually you have to go through a ton.
    0:30:29 It’s very weird for like the Mark Zuckerbergs, the Michael Dells, you know, even Steve Jobs,
    0:30:32 like just to be your, for your first company, to be your last company.
    0:30:34 Which is what I had, I think.
    0:30:40 And I did it because I saw a theme that a lot of the people who had, who I had admired had
    0:30:44 a hit in their twenties or thirties that allowed them to think longer term.
    0:30:46 That is key, right?
    0:30:50 One, I think it’s a mistake if you ever sell your best idea, whether you have money or not.
    0:30:51 So never sell your best idea.
    0:30:56 But in, in the case you’re describing, it’s like, if you can relieve, you know, financial
    0:30:58 pressure, me and you grew up with financial pressure.
    0:30:59 It feels.
    0:31:00 And it’s real.
    0:31:02 Like it’s, it destroys you.
    0:31:03 You can’t sleep.
    0:31:07 There are people who can overcome and just go all in at a young age.
    0:31:13 In general, it seems it’s easier when you have a wealthy parent or when you have some
    0:31:16 type of, you don’t need to worry about rent for three or four years.
    0:31:19 That, that is, it is easier that way.
    0:31:23 So, so to get that, like, Hey, I’m not going to have to worry about feeding, taking care of
    0:31:27 my wife, my kids, feeding myself and give yourself a room to breathe.
    0:31:30 And then you’re able to step back and be like, here’s the thing.
    0:31:31 A lot of this is just self-exploration.
    0:31:36 Like, dude, I know myself so much better now than I did think about when you’re like,
    0:31:38 you’re supposed to be picking your career when you’re in high school.
    0:31:40 Cause then you got to figure out what you’re going to major.
    0:31:41 And it’s like the stupidest thing ever.
    0:31:44 Like nobody, if you’re the same person, you’re at 18, that’s very bizarre.
    0:31:50 And so like, I just think part of picking a successful company and a successful career
    0:31:53 you can do for a long period of time is like, you have to go through this exploration of who
    0:31:54 you are as a person and what your true interests are.
    0:31:56 The problem is with humans.
    0:31:58 Like we think, Oh, like vibe coding is really cool.
    0:32:02 I like these kids are making money, but eventually through all these
    0:32:06 experiments, they might discover what they actually, you know, truly want to dedicate
    0:32:07 their lives to.
    0:32:09 So I think it’s like an overall good thing.
    0:32:14 But yeah, I think the advantage that if you, as an entrepreneur, as a podcaster, as a writer,
    0:32:17 as an athlete, whatever the case is, like, if you can think a lot, you just have a massive
    0:32:18 advantage.
    0:32:20 If you could just have a longer term perspective than other people.
    0:32:24 And this is the important thing is like, when I’m able to choose what I work on, I’m not
    0:32:28 worried about what like my downloads today or like my audience size today.
    0:32:31 It’s just like, as long as I do this forever, right?
    0:32:34 And I keep focusing on adding value to other people’s lives because money comes out of digital
    0:32:34 service.
    0:32:39 Then I’ll get, as long as I wake up every day, read a biography of history’s greatest entrepreneurs
    0:32:41 and sit down once a week and talk about what I learned and do that forever.
    0:32:43 I’ll let the score take of itself.
    0:32:44 The chips will fall where it is.
    0:32:46 Like I don’t want to deserve.
    0:32:52 I don’t want the listener to think long term means it’s, it’s okay if I don’t kick ass
    0:32:52 today.
    0:32:58 And a lot of people will justify this and say, well, it’s a marathon, not a sprint.
    0:33:06 And to them, I say, yeah, but have you ever ran like a hundred meters at the world record
    0:33:06 marathon pace?
    0:33:08 It’s going to feel like a sprint to you.
    0:33:13 Like you have to be able to run fast for a long period of time.
    0:33:20 And what I, and what, and what I mean by that is that doesn’t excuse day to day, um, lack
    0:33:20 of urgency.
    0:33:26 You still need to be, uh, impatient on a daily level, but patient on an annual level.
    0:33:33 Additionally, can you tell me the people who thought long term, they were still, maybe you
    0:33:38 can give me examples, but that doesn’t mean that they were broke five or 10 years into starting
    0:33:42 their company or that they didn’t have traction or did they, am I wrong?
    0:33:47 So the, the, to like close the loop on what you just said, I agree completely.
    0:33:50 If you think of like, there’s not very many entrepreneurs that had a longer term perspective
    0:33:54 than Jeff Bezos and his line about this was like, yeah, we have longterm, but like, we’re
    0:33:57 going to take step-by-step ferociously was his motto.
    0:34:00 Step-by-step ferociously, not like, oh, we’re going to lollygag.
    0:34:03 It’s like, no, no, no, I’m fine being, you know, you know, we’re going to be the
    0:34:07 company we want 10, 15 years from now, but every day for the next 10 to 15 years, like
    0:34:09 we’re pushing the pace and we’re doing as much as we can.
    0:34:14 Um, people that were broke five or 10 years in, uh, James Dyson, for sure.
    0:34:20 He was literally going to sleep covered in dirt because he’s trying to build a vacuum cleaner
    0:34:25 for the entire time going, going, going inside, crying himself to sleep as his kids are small.
    0:34:27 And then his kids are completely grown up.
    0:34:28 He was in massive amounts of debt.
    0:34:30 He couldn’t find no one.
    0:34:33 The reason he owns a hundred percent of his companies, cause no one would, uh, would actually,
    0:34:36 want the equity, which is hilarious considering how valuable it is now.
    0:34:39 But also he was like, uh, he had second loans out on his, on his, his second mortgage on his
    0:34:40 home.
    0:34:41 He was crying himself to sleep.
    0:34:43 So he was, he was nearly bankrupt.
    0:34:44 He was, oh yeah, yeah.
    0:34:48 For, for, and if it’s not the full 14 years, it was a good chunk because then he started licensing
    0:34:49 it.
    0:34:52 He had, he had some small wins where he could actually pay his bills, but he was not like
    0:34:53 a wealthy man.
    0:34:58 Steve Jobs, rich from the get-go, you know, app, he builds the first app on his garage.
    0:35:02 Four years later, he’s worth a hundred million dollars and the company’s public.
    0:35:03 It looked like it was pretty crazy.
    0:35:06 Von Chouinard broke for an excessively long period of time.
    0:35:10 Like there isn’t like a, you know, it just, it’s a case by case basis.
    0:35:12 Jeff Bezos already wealthy.
    0:35:14 He worked for this hedge fund in New York called D.E.
    0:35:14 Shaw.
    0:35:19 And he quit that and gave up a huge bonus to move, uh, to Seattle.
    0:35:21 But he was already, you know, able to live in Manhattan.
    0:35:22 He was working for a billionaire.
    0:35:24 Sam Walton.
    0:35:25 Now here’s another idea.
    0:35:29 By the way, I think Amazon had like a hundred million in sales, like four years in or something.
    0:35:31 Super fast, super fast.
    0:35:34 He was like, by the time he was 30, so he starts the company at 30.
    0:35:35 I think by 35, he’s a billionaire.
    0:35:41 I tracked him on this when I like had my, uh, I had this sheet where I tracked probably 300
    0:35:46 people and I had timelines for each of them of when they were born, when they started the
    0:35:50 thing that allowed them to be a little bit financially free when that period ended.
    0:35:56 And then when they started the thing that made them huge and he, uh, started Amazon at 32
    0:36:01 and between the ages of like 24 or whenever you graduate college to 32, presumably he was
    0:36:06 making some amount of money, like the equivalent of 250 to $500,000 a year today.
    0:36:07 For sure.
    0:36:07 For sure.
    0:36:13 Sam Walton had his first, this is an interesting thing because there is an idea, uh, a principle
    0:36:16 I’ve noticed is like go slow now so you can go faster later.
    0:36:22 And what I mean by that is like Sam Walton, greatest retailer of all time, undoubtedly he
    0:36:24 had one store for five years.
    0:36:29 And so he was obsessively learning everything he possibly could about retail, doing all these
    0:36:29 experiments.
    0:36:33 And so then you fast forward, you know, one store for five years, then you fast forward,
    0:36:35 let’s say 25 years into his career.
    0:36:37 He has the idea.
    0:36:39 He’s already has Walmart, but he’s like, Hey, he meets this guy named Sol Price.
    0:36:40 So I’ve done episodes.
    0:36:41 How many years?
    0:36:42 Do you say 25?
    0:36:44 Well, let’s say 25 years into his career, right?
    0:36:48 So the first five years of his career, it’s one store, 25 years in, let’s say around
    0:36:53 there, he’s got Walmart, but then he has this idea for Sam’s Club, which he got, he took from
    0:36:53 other people.
    0:36:57 He took from this guy named Sol Price, who’s, uh, he came up with the warehouse club idea.
    0:37:02 Uh, the founder of Costco was Sol Price’s mentee when he was like, uh, Jim Senegal was like
    0:37:04 18 working for a Sol Price.
    0:37:05 That’s where he got the idea for Costco.
    0:37:06 Sam Walton sees that.
    0:37:07 He’s like, Oh, this is a great idea.
    0:37:07 I’m going to do it immediately.
    0:37:12 So 25 years into his career, he didn’t have to stick with one store for five years.
    0:37:16 So when he launched Sam’s Club within the first five years, he gets to like 105 stores and
    0:37:18 like $7 billion in revenue.
    0:37:19 Same period.
    0:37:25 When he started out, he can only master one tiny little store in Arkansas, but your skillset
    0:37:27 and your resources and everything compounds.
    0:37:28 That’s the point.
    0:37:34 Todd Graves talks about, you know, I think he, by the time he gets like, he’s 10, the raising
    0:37:34 Cain’s guy.
    0:37:36 He, I think he’s 10 to 12 years into his career.
    0:37:38 He’s got 28 stores.
    0:37:39 Sounds like a lot, right?
    0:37:44 He opens like 150 stores a year right now, or a hundred between a hundred and 150 stores
    0:37:45 a year.
    0:37:47 Go slow at the beginning to go faster later.
    0:37:49 He’s learning and he’s going to apply that.
    0:37:53 This is the important thing about not jumping from business to business to business, because
    0:37:56 if you jump from business to business, all you’re doing is interrupting and compounding.
    0:38:02 Was it clear a lot of these, you know, the world’s greatest entrepreneurs, was it clear
    0:38:06 that their TAM was big enough to achieve their ambition?
    0:38:08 No, absolutely not.
    0:38:08 No.
    0:38:13 Like, for example, you’d be like, look, this chicken finger thing, that’s maybe silly, but
    0:38:14 I guess McDonald’s is huge.
    0:38:16 I guess you could be kind of like McDonald’s.
    0:38:19 I think he’s, if he did think of anything, he thought of In-N-Out.
    0:38:21 In-N-Out was found in 1948.
    0:38:26 If you look at In-N-Out’s menu, it looks like Todd Graves.
    0:38:30 There’s other people before him, but it’s like, to me, Todd Graves is just Harry Snyder,
    0:38:34 reincarnated, who was the founder of In-N-Out, but instead of doing burgers, he does chicken
    0:38:34 fingers.
    0:38:38 But no, like, I just went over this because I’m going through the Michael Dell episode
    0:38:38 right now.
    0:38:40 Like, there’s just like, no way.
    0:38:44 Like, you knew computers were, like, most people hadn’t even seen a computer.
    0:38:45 And like, he was just completely obsessed with it.
    0:38:48 So there’s no way he could have predicted the financial success he was going to have and
    0:38:50 how big the market could actually get.
    0:38:52 You know, he started with Dell with $1,000?
    0:38:53 No.
    0:38:54 No venture capital, $1,000.
    0:38:59 And his main competitor was Compaq, who started with, like, $25 million of venture capital.
    0:39:01 And Michael Dell is super competitive, but nice.
    0:39:03 The book’s called Play Nice and Win.
    0:39:04 Play Nice, But Win.
    0:39:06 But he’s like, he’s constantly contrasting.
    0:39:07 He’s like, I started with $1,000.
    0:39:08 They started with $25 million.
    0:39:09 I’m kicking their ass.
    0:39:10 It’s really funny.
    0:39:16 And Dell would tell you that having the constraints of limited capital was really good at the
    0:39:20 beginning because it forced him to innovate in a way that you wouldn’t if you had money.
    0:39:21 And I was like, oh, wow, that’s interesting.
    0:39:23 So I go and pull my highlights from Sam Walton.
    0:39:24 Sam Walton said the same thing.
    0:39:26 Kmart existed before Walmart.
    0:39:28 Kmart was dominating the big cities.
    0:39:29 Because if you’re going to start retail, where are you going to go?
    0:39:30 You’re going to go to Chicago.
    0:39:30 You’re going to New York.
    0:39:31 You’re going to go to all those other places.
    0:39:32 So he’s like, well, I can’t go there.
    0:39:33 I don’t have any money.
    0:39:36 So he starts going in these little towns in rural Arkansas.
    0:39:38 And what he learned, he goes, oh, constraints are your friend.
    0:39:43 Because if we were better capitalized, I would have never went out into these tiny little
    0:39:44 communities.
    0:39:48 And what I discovered is in these tiny little communities, there’s far, far more business
    0:39:50 than we could have ever predicted.
    0:39:53 Perfect example to your question.
    0:39:55 You’re the man, David.
    0:39:57 I appreciate you doing this.
    0:40:01 I could just like, I think the listener will notice this is probably the podcast that I’ve
    0:40:05 spoken the least amount of all 700.
    0:40:11 I’ve listened to hundreds of your episodes.
    0:40:12 I think you’re at like, what, 400?
    0:40:14 I think I’ve listened to half of them now.
    0:40:15 I appreciate that.
    0:40:16 I appreciate you.
    0:40:17 That’s it.
    0:40:17 That’s the pod.
    0:40:20 I feel like I can rule the world.
    0:40:22 I know I could be what I want to.
    0:40:25 I put my all in it like no days off.
    0:40:28 On the road, let’s travel, never looking back.

    Help us win a Webby for BEST CREATOR and BEST VIDEO SERIES

    Episode 698: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) talks to David Senra ( https://x.com/FoundersPodcast ) about what qualities make an anti-business billionaire. 

    Show Notes: 

    (0:00) High Level of Disagreeableness

    (9:02) Extreme Self-Confidence

    (12:55) Product Quality Obsessed

    (18:37) Retention of Total Control

    (27:28) Exit Strategy is Death

    Links:

    • Play Nice But Win – https://tinyurl.com/uuwumk8d 

    • Creative Selection – https://tinyurl.com/bdz8f9ae 

    • Founders Podcast – https://www.founderspodcast.com/

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    • Sam’s List – http://samslist.co/

    My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

  • 667: 10+ Side Hustle Trends for 2025

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 Here are 10 side hustle trends for 2025.
    0:00:05 What’s up, what’s up, Nick O’Loper here.
    0:00:07 Welcome to the side hustle show
    0:00:09 because your nine to five may make you a living,
    0:00:11 but your five to nine makes you alive.
    0:00:14 Today, we’re tackling some side hustle trends
    0:00:16 that you should be aware of
    0:00:18 because they might impact what business you start
    0:00:20 and how you think about scaling it.
    0:00:22 And to help me out with these is a longtime friend
    0:00:24 and friend of the show.
    0:00:25 He’s been covering online side hustles
    0:00:29 even longer than I have from nichepursuits.com.
    0:00:31 So, Spencer Hans, welcome back to the side hustle show.
    0:00:33 Nick, it’s great to be here.
    0:00:36 Long time listener, follower of the show.
    0:00:39 And of course, we’ve connected a couple of times in person.
    0:00:41 It’s always fun to talk about side hustles,
    0:00:43 niche projects, if you will.
    0:00:45 So yeah, really excited to jump in.
    0:00:46 Yes, a couple old timers here.
    0:00:48 We’ll go for it.
    0:00:52 So almost all of our content starts from the question,
    0:00:53 how do I make extra money?
    0:00:56 And to answer that, I think it’s important to know
    0:00:58 where the market’s been,
    0:00:59 where it is today,
    0:01:01 and maybe where you see it potentially going.
    0:01:03 So that’s our goal for today.
    0:01:04 10 or maybe more.
    0:01:06 We’ll see what happens as we get going.
    0:01:08 10 observations from a couple,
    0:01:10 like we said, a couple of old guys
    0:01:11 that you can use, hopefully,
    0:01:12 to make some more money this year.
    0:01:15 And trend number one that I want to bring up
    0:01:18 is for the last year and a half or so,
    0:01:19 ever since this helpful content update,
    0:01:21 is what I’m going to call
    0:01:23 the shrinking SEO landscape.
    0:01:24 Rand Fishkin has called it
    0:01:26 zero-click publishing.
    0:01:27 But just in the search results,
    0:01:30 you see more AI answers,
    0:01:31 AI snippets,
    0:01:32 you see more Reddit,
    0:01:33 you see more user-generated content,
    0:01:38 you see these huge image card blocks.
    0:01:40 Like SideHustleNation used to rank
    0:01:42 for a lot of listicle type of content.
    0:01:44 But now this huge chunk of the page
    0:01:44 is getting like,
    0:01:46 well, we’ll just parse out
    0:01:47 all the items on your list
    0:01:48 and put a little image by it.
    0:01:50 like, well, it pushes everything else
    0:01:52 lower down on the page.
    0:01:53 You know, what are you seeing
    0:01:54 with niche pursuits?
    0:01:55 What are you seeing with publishers
    0:01:56 trying to combat
    0:01:58 this shrinking piece of the pie?
    0:02:00 Plus, user behavior changing.
    0:02:02 Like I know from my own personal experience,
    0:02:04 like I find myself using ChatGPT
    0:02:04 as a search engine
    0:02:06 or as an answer engine, rather,
    0:02:08 more often than Google these days.
    0:02:10 Yeah, quickly changing landscape.
    0:02:12 A lot is going on in the SEO world.
    0:02:14 I think you hit on that
    0:02:15 sort of the zero-click landscape
    0:02:17 that we’re entering in.
    0:02:18 I’ve seen a lot of publishers
    0:02:21 that, yeah, their answers
    0:02:23 are being taken by those AI overviews
    0:02:25 that Google is putting out.
    0:02:26 Not only has there been
    0:02:28 a lot of updates, right?
    0:02:29 You mentioned the helpful content update,
    0:02:31 but a lot of Google core updates
    0:02:33 that feel like a lot of small publishers
    0:02:36 have been impacted heavily with, right?
    0:02:38 But even some large publishers
    0:02:40 I’ve talked with privately with
    0:02:43 that their rankings in Google
    0:02:44 haven’t changed.
    0:02:45 Like they still rank number one
    0:02:47 for the term or number two
    0:02:48 for the term, right?
    0:02:49 That they originally ranked for.
    0:02:51 But because there’s now
    0:02:52 this AI overview,
    0:02:55 they don’t get as many clicks, right?
    0:02:57 So the rankings technically
    0:02:58 haven’t changed.
    0:02:59 They still are the number one
    0:03:01 organic result for whatever,
    0:03:03 but they’re getting less clicks
    0:03:04 because people now just read
    0:03:06 that AI overview, right?
    0:03:06 Yeah.
    0:03:08 And so there’s that,
    0:03:10 that Google has changed.
    0:03:11 And then the other thing,
    0:03:13 I’m in the same boat with you,
    0:03:14 and I think a lot of people are,
    0:03:16 like I am starting to use
    0:03:18 ChatGPT a lot more, right?
    0:03:20 Because it remembers
    0:03:21 what I searched previously.
    0:03:22 Like I’ll say,
    0:03:23 hey, I’m starting a little
    0:03:25 side hustle on this.
    0:03:26 And then I might ask it
    0:03:27 a series of questions like,
    0:03:28 what do I need to get started?
    0:03:30 And then I might ask,
    0:03:31 you know, later,
    0:03:32 what products should I buy
    0:03:34 to help me with that, right?
    0:03:35 And it’s just like
    0:03:36 this ongoing thing
    0:03:38 that you don’t really do
    0:03:39 on Google very well.
    0:03:40 You’d have to type out
    0:03:41 like two paragraphs
    0:03:42 to do it.
    0:03:43 ChatGPT just remembers
    0:03:45 your previous searches.
    0:03:46 Yeah, you can give it,
    0:03:46 you can provide it
    0:03:47 a lot more context,
    0:03:48 a lot more detail.
    0:03:49 We’re like, hey,
    0:03:50 we’re visiting Japan
    0:03:52 with two boys.
    0:03:54 They’re seven and nine.
    0:03:55 You know, what do you recommend
    0:03:56 for this two-week itinerary?
    0:03:57 And it like spits out
    0:03:58 this detailed day-by-day thing
    0:03:59 where it’s like,
    0:04:00 ah, you know,
    0:04:01 but it’s frustrating
    0:04:03 from the content creator perspective
    0:04:04 because somebody had
    0:04:04 to create that
    0:04:05 for it to crawl.
    0:04:06 And it’s like,
    0:04:07 well, where are they,
    0:04:09 if their business model
    0:04:10 was monetizing
    0:04:11 with ad revenue
    0:04:12 or affiliate clicks,
    0:04:14 like where are they left?
    0:04:14 And what’s the incentive
    0:04:16 to keep creating this content
    0:04:18 for the AI to chew on?
    0:04:18 Like, where does it,
    0:04:20 where does it go?
    0:04:21 Like for a time
    0:04:24 and I’m still a little bit torn,
    0:04:25 like there’s still got to be
    0:04:26 some value
    0:04:27 in being a primary source,
    0:04:28 like scooping a story,
    0:04:29 you know,
    0:04:32 providing firsthand experience
    0:04:33 and review content.
    0:04:34 but if it ends up
    0:04:35 just getting aggregated
    0:04:36 and scraped
    0:04:37 and re-summarized,
    0:04:38 ah, it’s like,
    0:04:39 well, I don’t know,
    0:04:41 why are we doing this?
    0:04:43 It’s extremely frustrating,
    0:04:43 right,
    0:04:45 to the content creator
    0:04:46 because you’re exactly right.
    0:04:47 Somebody had to create
    0:04:48 all those different
    0:04:50 itineraries to Japan,
    0:04:50 right,
    0:04:51 that ChatGPT
    0:04:52 had to learn on,
    0:04:53 right?
    0:04:54 so we as publishers
    0:04:55 over the last,
    0:04:56 you know,
    0:04:57 however long you’ve been publishing
    0:04:58 have been creating
    0:04:59 and researching
    0:05:00 and a lot of people
    0:05:01 have been traveling
    0:05:01 to these locations
    0:05:02 and taking pictures
    0:05:04 and, you know,
    0:05:05 travel bloggers in particular
    0:05:06 have been hit really hard,
    0:05:08 food bloggers in particular
    0:05:09 have been hit really hard,
    0:05:10 right,
    0:05:11 where AI can now just spit out
    0:05:13 the recipe for you,
    0:05:14 that sort of thing
    0:05:15 and so where does that leave
    0:05:16 publishers?
    0:05:17 I don’t know
    0:05:17 the right answer,
    0:05:18 you know,
    0:05:19 going forward
    0:05:20 other than we’re in this
    0:05:22 really big shift,
    0:05:24 this big transition phase
    0:05:25 of,
    0:05:25 boy,
    0:05:27 you either need to provide
    0:05:28 really unique content
    0:05:29 or,
    0:05:30 like you said,
    0:05:31 maybe scooping
    0:05:32 truly groundbreaking stories
    0:05:34 or your writing
    0:05:35 is just so fascinating
    0:05:37 that you can build
    0:05:37 an audience,
    0:05:38 you have an email list,
    0:05:41 people truly following you
    0:05:42 for your personality
    0:05:43 or for your writing abilities
    0:05:45 or for whatever it is
    0:05:46 that makes you unique
    0:05:48 so building an audience
    0:05:49 is just becoming
    0:05:51 so important,
    0:05:52 right,
    0:05:53 because if you’re just there
    0:05:54 for that transactional query
    0:05:56 and you are making money
    0:05:57 with ads in the past,
    0:05:59 that may be not
    0:06:01 a very strong
    0:06:02 business going forward.
    0:06:03 Yeah,
    0:06:05 it’s a challenging
    0:06:06 and changing landscape
    0:06:07 and maybe that brings us
    0:06:09 to trend number two
    0:06:12 in light of the SEO challenges
    0:06:13 or the search traffic challenge
    0:06:14 challenges.
    0:06:15 Like I’m still,
    0:06:16 you know,
    0:06:17 maybe this is old school,
    0:06:17 but like I still think
    0:06:18 you ought to have
    0:06:19 a website as your home base,
    0:06:20 something you truly do
    0:06:22 own and control.
    0:06:23 But we’ve seen the shift
    0:06:24 towards what we might call
    0:06:26 social first audience building
    0:06:28 or social first publishing
    0:06:29 where I’m going to go out
    0:06:31 into Instagram,
    0:06:32 TikTok,
    0:06:33 YouTube,
    0:06:33 LinkedIn,
    0:06:34 Twitter,
    0:06:35 and like try and bring people
    0:06:37 back into my world
    0:06:38 or try and go where,
    0:06:38 you know,
    0:06:39 go where my audience
    0:06:40 already is
    0:06:41 and try and create content,
    0:06:42 build up reputation,
    0:06:43 authority on whatever topic
    0:06:45 it is on these other platforms.
    0:06:46 And then,
    0:06:47 you know,
    0:06:48 question mark,
    0:06:49 question mark,
    0:06:49 question mark,
    0:06:50 step three,
    0:06:51 monetize a profit.
    0:06:51 Right.
    0:06:52 It’s like,
    0:06:52 it’s not,
    0:06:54 it’s not as simple
    0:06:54 as it was,
    0:06:54 you know,
    0:06:56 just pasting in an AdSense
    0:06:57 or a Mediavine script
    0:06:58 and saying,
    0:06:58 well,
    0:06:59 now I get page views,
    0:06:59 so I got,
    0:07:00 I got revenue.
    0:07:00 Right.
    0:07:01 Yeah,
    0:07:02 exactly right.
    0:07:02 For,
    0:07:04 for a long time in particular,
    0:07:04 as you know,
    0:07:06 we talk about bloggers
    0:07:07 and blogging a lot,
    0:07:08 right?
    0:07:09 The model was like,
    0:07:09 okay,
    0:07:10 get this organic traffic
    0:07:11 from Google
    0:07:12 and now that pie is shrinking.
    0:07:15 I think a lot of content creators
    0:07:17 are trying to get that organic traffic,
    0:07:18 right,
    0:07:20 to avoid having to do paid media,
    0:07:21 but they’re doing it,
    0:07:22 like you said,
    0:07:22 Instagram,
    0:07:23 TikTok,
    0:07:24 Twitter,
    0:07:25 LinkedIn,
    0:07:26 pick your platform,
    0:07:27 YouTube,
    0:07:28 right,
    0:07:29 is a big one.
    0:07:30 And then what are they doing
    0:07:31 with that audience?
    0:07:32 It all just depends.
    0:07:34 But I agree that,
    0:07:35 hey,
    0:07:36 that should be maybe
    0:07:38 one arrow in your quiver
    0:07:39 of like,
    0:07:39 okay,
    0:07:41 what’s the organic reach
    0:07:42 that I can get?
    0:07:43 Where am I publishing my content?
    0:07:45 Pick a platform,
    0:07:45 whatever it is,
    0:07:46 Instagram,
    0:07:46 YouTube.
    0:07:47 Yeah,
    0:07:48 and I would probably say
    0:07:49 pick one to start with
    0:07:51 and like study it,
    0:07:51 learn it,
    0:07:51 own it,
    0:07:53 and go deep,
    0:07:53 you know,
    0:07:54 simplify first,
    0:07:54 diversify second.
    0:07:56 But then do lead them
    0:07:57 to a website
    0:07:58 or to an email list
    0:08:00 or some central hub
    0:08:00 where,
    0:08:01 hey,
    0:08:02 you interact
    0:08:03 with your audience
    0:08:04 on a more intimate
    0:08:05 level.
    0:08:05 A lot of businesses
    0:08:06 do that well
    0:08:08 and it’s just,
    0:08:09 I used to say,
    0:08:10 hey,
    0:08:11 go to Google
    0:08:12 and get that organic reach
    0:08:12 but maybe,
    0:08:13 yeah,
    0:08:13 it is more
    0:08:15 a social approach.
    0:08:16 I think that’s,
    0:08:17 I’m seeing that a lot.
    0:08:19 I think it’s going to lead
    0:08:20 to more thoughtful
    0:08:21 or more creative
    0:08:23 monetization strategies
    0:08:24 where it’s like
    0:08:25 if the game plan
    0:08:26 was to just,
    0:08:27 you know,
    0:08:28 blanket the web
    0:08:29 like trying to target,
    0:08:29 you know,
    0:08:30 long tail search queries,
    0:08:31 you’re going to have to have
    0:08:32 a more in-depth
    0:08:33 knowledge base
    0:08:34 around that topic
    0:08:35 to be able to
    0:08:37 monetize with a,
    0:08:38 you know,
    0:08:39 coaching or consulting program.
    0:08:40 Like,
    0:08:41 somebody’s specific
    0:08:41 probably going to have to go
    0:08:43 up market in a way
    0:08:44 if the bottom end
    0:08:45 of that information-based
    0:08:47 search traffic
    0:08:48 is just going to get
    0:08:48 eaten by AI.
    0:08:49 Yeah.
    0:08:50 And,
    0:08:50 you know,
    0:08:51 one other thing
    0:08:52 for people to consider
    0:08:54 that I’m seeing
    0:08:57 is video-first content
    0:09:00 is a bigger moat,
    0:09:01 right?
    0:09:02 It’s gaining in a lot
    0:09:02 of popularity.
    0:09:04 The platforms,
    0:09:04 TikTok,
    0:09:04 Instagram,
    0:09:05 YouTube,
    0:09:06 right,
    0:09:06 are probably,
    0:09:08 if you’re willing
    0:09:09 and able to get
    0:09:10 in front of the camera,
    0:09:12 create great videos,
    0:09:13 whether it’s short
    0:09:14 or long-form videos,
    0:09:17 that is going to
    0:09:18 have a little bit
    0:09:18 bigger moat
    0:09:19 than if you’re just
    0:09:20 to do written content
    0:09:21 because AI
    0:09:23 can spit out
    0:09:23 written content
    0:09:24 all day long,
    0:09:25 but it hasn’t quite
    0:09:26 gotten to the place
    0:09:27 where it can replicate
    0:09:29 you and I
    0:09:30 quite as well.
    0:09:31 There’s still a moat there.
    0:09:32 If you can do
    0:09:33 video-first content,
    0:09:34 I think you can build
    0:09:35 an audience faster.
    0:09:35 Okay.
    0:09:36 That makes sense.
    0:09:37 You played around
    0:09:39 with any AI-assisted video?
    0:09:39 Like,
    0:09:40 are you doing any
    0:09:40 Hayjin,
    0:09:41 Spencer,
    0:09:41 where it’s like
    0:09:42 your little avatar
    0:09:43 talking,
    0:09:43 on the screen?
    0:09:44 I haven’t gone
    0:09:45 as far as,
    0:09:45 you know,
    0:09:48 my avatar so much.
    0:09:49 AI B-roll,
    0:09:50 you know,
    0:09:51 elements that I can
    0:09:53 add to my videos,
    0:09:54 done some things
    0:09:55 like that,
    0:09:56 or other sort of
    0:09:57 silly B-roll.
    0:09:58 I had some B-roll
    0:09:59 on a YouTube video
    0:10:00 recently where
    0:10:01 I was talking
    0:10:03 to an artificial
    0:10:03 intelligence,
    0:10:05 you know,
    0:10:05 person.
    0:10:06 It was quite obvious
    0:10:07 that they were not real.
    0:10:08 It was sort of
    0:10:09 like an inside B-roll
    0:10:10 joke or whatever.
    0:10:12 so played around
    0:10:13 but not like
    0:10:14 made it a main
    0:10:15 portion of my
    0:10:16 videos at this
    0:10:17 point.
    0:10:17 Yeah,
    0:10:19 video first,
    0:10:20 social first,
    0:10:21 create that
    0:10:23 bigger moat
    0:10:24 where if you have
    0:10:24 that firsthand
    0:10:25 experience,
    0:10:25 like,
    0:10:26 and it’s you
    0:10:26 on camera,
    0:10:27 you’re building
    0:10:28 that relationship
    0:10:29 and trust
    0:10:30 that is a much
    0:10:31 deeper relationship.
    0:10:31 And same thing
    0:10:32 with podcasting,
    0:10:32 like,
    0:10:32 hard to build an
    0:10:33 audience,
    0:10:34 but once you have
    0:10:34 people paying
    0:10:35 attention,
    0:10:35 like,
    0:10:35 really,
    0:10:36 really valuable
    0:10:37 audience,
    0:10:37 especially if
    0:10:37 they’re going
    0:10:38 to spend
    0:10:40 45 minutes a
    0:10:40 week with you
    0:10:41 in their earbuds,
    0:10:41 right?
    0:10:42 You build that
    0:10:43 relationship much
    0:10:44 more powerfully
    0:10:45 than somebody,
    0:10:46 you know,
    0:10:47 Googling something
    0:10:47 and, like,
    0:10:48 skimming a blog
    0:10:48 post for,
    0:10:49 you know,
    0:10:50 90 seconds and
    0:10:51 then they’re on
    0:10:51 to the next
    0:10:51 thing.
    0:10:52 Yep,
    0:10:52 exactly.
    0:10:53 The next one
    0:10:54 on my list,
    0:10:55 it kind of
    0:10:56 relates to this
    0:10:57 video first,
    0:10:58 and maybe we
    0:10:58 could call it,
    0:10:58 you know,
    0:10:59 short form
    0:11:00 videos,
    0:11:01 eating everything,
    0:11:02 like,
    0:11:03 the TikTok-ification
    0:11:04 of the planet,
    0:11:05 but the one
    0:11:06 that comes
    0:11:06 to mind
    0:11:07 is the,
    0:11:08 it’s kind of
    0:11:09 like the,
    0:11:09 I’ll call it
    0:11:10 like the fall
    0:11:10 of the follower
    0:11:11 and the rise
    0:11:12 of the algorithm
    0:11:14 where it no
    0:11:15 longer,
    0:11:16 like,
    0:11:17 I’ll give you
    0:11:17 the example
    0:11:17 of like,
    0:11:18 if I log into
    0:11:19 Facebook or
    0:11:19 Instagram or any
    0:11:20 of these platforms,
    0:11:20 like,
    0:11:21 half of the stuff
    0:11:22 in my feed
    0:11:23 is from accounts
    0:11:24 that I don’t
    0:11:24 follow,
    0:11:25 have never
    0:11:25 followed,
    0:11:25 have no
    0:11:26 relationship with,
    0:11:27 but it’s stuff
    0:11:28 that the algorithm
    0:11:29 thinks I will
    0:11:29 like,
    0:11:31 and it does a
    0:11:31 pretty good job
    0:11:32 of that because
    0:11:32 like,
    0:11:32 for me,
    0:11:33 it’s like a lot
    0:11:33 of,
    0:11:34 you know,
    0:11:34 data visualization
    0:11:35 and maps
    0:11:36 or baseball
    0:11:37 statistics
    0:11:37 because it
    0:11:37 knows,
    0:11:38 it knows I’m
    0:11:39 going to stop
    0:11:39 and like,
    0:11:40 try and figure
    0:11:41 this out.
    0:11:41 Like,
    0:11:42 what is this
    0:11:42 thing trying
    0:11:42 to show me?
    0:11:43 Or on Instagram,
    0:11:44 it’s like a lot
    0:11:44 of like ski
    0:11:45 videos,
    0:11:45 like,
    0:11:45 oh,
    0:11:46 watch this guy
    0:11:46 go over
    0:11:46 some crazy
    0:11:47 jump.
    0:11:48 You have to
    0:11:49 watch the
    0:11:49 landing to see
    0:11:50 if he makes
    0:11:50 it.
    0:11:52 And they know
    0:11:52 it’s going to
    0:11:53 stop the scroll,
    0:11:54 even though I
    0:11:54 don’t follow
    0:11:55 any of these
    0:11:55 accounts.
    0:11:55 It’s like,
    0:11:56 it’s just a
    0:11:57 weird thing.
    0:11:58 So the good
    0:11:59 news is if
    0:11:59 you’re a new
    0:11:59 creator,
    0:12:00 if you create
    0:12:01 something that’s
    0:12:01 compelling,
    0:12:02 you have the
    0:12:02 chance to punch
    0:12:02 above your
    0:12:03 weight class
    0:12:03 and get seen
    0:12:04 by,
    0:12:04 you know,
    0:12:05 more than
    0:12:06 your three
    0:12:06 followers.
    0:12:07 The drawback
    0:12:08 is if you have
    0:12:08 a bit of a
    0:12:08 following,
    0:12:10 you still have
    0:12:10 to play the
    0:12:11 algorithms game.
    0:12:12 And,
    0:12:12 you know,
    0:12:13 unless it’s
    0:12:14 really compelling,
    0:12:14 even the people
    0:12:15 who do follow
    0:12:16 you probably
    0:12:16 not going to
    0:12:16 see your stuff.
    0:12:17 exactly.
    0:12:18 You know,
    0:12:18 on YouTube,
    0:12:19 we’ve always
    0:12:20 accepted this.
    0:12:20 When you go to
    0:12:21 your YouTube
    0:12:21 homepage,
    0:12:22 you expect to
    0:12:23 get recommended
    0:12:24 videos,
    0:12:25 right,
    0:12:26 that most of
    0:12:27 the videos you’re
    0:12:27 seeing in your
    0:12:28 recommendations are
    0:12:29 not channels that
    0:12:30 you’ve subscribed
    0:12:30 to, right?
    0:12:31 From day one,
    0:12:32 we’ve always just
    0:12:33 sort of accepted
    0:12:34 this on YouTube,
    0:12:35 but you’re exactly
    0:12:35 right.
    0:12:36 It’s creeped into
    0:12:37 Facebook,
    0:12:37 Instagram,
    0:12:39 other platforms
    0:12:40 where you go
    0:12:40 through.
    0:12:41 You’re not seeing
    0:12:41 your friends’
    0:12:42 posts anymore.
    0:12:43 You’re seeing,
    0:12:44 you know,
    0:12:45 whatever sort of
    0:12:45 interest the
    0:12:46 algorithm has
    0:12:47 assigned to you.
    0:12:47 And so,
    0:12:48 you know,
    0:12:48 hey,
    0:12:49 good for their
    0:12:50 business,
    0:12:50 I guess.
    0:12:50 It’s maybe
    0:12:52 increasing engagement,
    0:12:53 but you’re exactly
    0:12:54 right that I have
    0:12:55 seen like some
    0:12:56 really small
    0:12:57 Facebook pages,
    0:12:57 for example,
    0:12:59 that they can
    0:12:59 have something
    0:13:00 go absolutely
    0:13:01 viral.
    0:13:01 They only have
    0:13:02 10,000 followers,
    0:13:03 but one of their
    0:13:04 posts gets like
    0:13:06 10 million views,
    0:13:06 right?
    0:13:07 Just because for
    0:13:08 whatever reason,
    0:13:09 it’s triggered this
    0:13:10 algorithm and it
    0:13:10 can get in front of
    0:13:11 a really,
    0:13:12 really large audience.
    0:13:14 So there’s a lot
    0:13:15 of opportunity there
    0:13:16 if you can kind of
    0:13:17 figure out what
    0:13:18 types of content
    0:13:19 work really well
    0:13:19 and you can kind
    0:13:20 of game the
    0:13:21 algorithms a little
    0:13:22 bit on these
    0:13:22 platforms.
    0:13:24 But as a user,
    0:13:25 we may or may not
    0:13:26 love this situation,
    0:13:27 right?
    0:13:27 People call it
    0:13:28 brain rot.
    0:13:28 We’ve got a lot
    0:13:29 of brain rot in
    0:13:31 our feeds that we
    0:13:32 got to get past.
    0:13:33 So, you know,
    0:13:35 it’s, which one
    0:13:36 wins out there?
    0:13:36 I don’t know.
    0:13:37 But then it’s like,
    0:13:38 what’s the benefit
    0:13:39 to the creator?
    0:13:39 Like, okay,
    0:13:40 I got a lot of
    0:13:42 views, but is,
    0:13:43 I mean, is Facebook
    0:13:44 paying these creators
    0:13:46 like based on the
    0:13:47 views that you
    0:13:47 played around with
    0:13:48 their, what do they
    0:13:49 call it, like their
    0:13:49 partner program or
    0:13:51 publishing program or
    0:13:51 something?
    0:13:52 Yeah, their
    0:13:53 performance bonus
    0:13:55 program is exactly
    0:13:55 right.
    0:13:56 And I could talk
    0:13:56 about this a lot.
    0:13:57 I don’t know if
    0:13:58 this is like another
    0:13:59 side hustle, you
    0:13:59 know, whatever number
    0:14:00 we’re on here.
    0:14:01 Yeah, go for it.
    0:14:02 Facebook performance
    0:14:04 bonus program is a
    0:14:06 really interesting
    0:14:06 program.
    0:14:08 So think of it, I
    0:14:09 mean, think of it
    0:14:09 like the YouTube
    0:14:10 partner program,
    0:14:11 right?
    0:14:11 You know, we all
    0:14:12 see Mr. Beast videos,
    0:14:14 he has ads in his
    0:14:15 videos, the YouTube
    0:14:16 pays him, you know,
    0:14:18 AdSense revenue, ad
    0:14:18 revenue.
    0:14:19 That’s exactly what
    0:14:21 Facebook is doing that
    0:14:23 if you get accepted to
    0:14:24 this performance bonus
    0:14:25 program and not everyone
    0:14:26 gets accepted, but I do
    0:14:27 happen to have a
    0:14:28 Facebook page that is
    0:14:29 accepted so I can talk
    0:14:31 intelligently about this
    0:14:32 program, that once
    0:14:33 you’re accepted, you
    0:14:35 get paid based on
    0:14:36 essentially views and
    0:14:38 interaction of your
    0:14:39 posts, right?
    0:14:40 So if you do have
    0:14:41 something that goes
    0:14:42 viral, gets a million
    0:14:43 views, gets a ton of
    0:14:44 comments, gets a bunch
    0:14:45 of, you know, thumbs
    0:14:47 up or whatever, you
    0:14:48 will make more money.
    0:14:49 And so I have a
    0:14:50 particular page that my
    0:14:51 best month ever was
    0:14:53 just over $5,000 and
    0:14:54 that was about two
    0:14:55 months ago, right?
    0:14:56 On average now it’s
    0:14:58 doing $3,500 to $4,000
    0:14:59 a month and it’s just a
    0:15:01 very obscure, random
    0:15:03 topic that isn’t like,
    0:15:04 you know, popular.
    0:15:05 It’s not like mainstream
    0:15:06 news or anything.
    0:15:07 It’s more like
    0:15:08 nostalgic type stuff
    0:15:09 like, hey, remember the
    0:15:10 80s when this happened?
    0:15:12 That’s not really what my
    0:15:13 page is, but kind of
    0:15:14 in that vein, right?
    0:15:16 Nostalgic stuff.
    0:15:16 Okay.
    0:15:17 So I get some of that
    0:15:17 stuff too.
    0:15:18 Like here’s, you know,
    0:15:19 here was the billboard,
    0:15:21 you know, top 12 modern
    0:15:23 rock chart from 1994 and
    0:15:24 you’re like, I remember
    0:15:25 those songs.
    0:15:26 Exactly.
    0:15:28 Stuff kind of like that.
    0:15:29 Remember this, you know?
    0:15:29 Okay.
    0:15:30 And it might be an
    0:15:31 image of something that
    0:15:33 was, you know, from 20
    0:15:34 years ago or 30 years ago
    0:15:34 or whatever.
    0:15:35 Yeah.
    0:15:36 I remember like blowing
    0:15:37 into the Nintendo
    0:15:38 cartridge or…
    0:15:39 Exactly.
    0:15:39 Yeah.
    0:15:39 Yeah.
    0:15:40 Good stuff.
    0:15:41 Is this something that
    0:15:42 you’re, someone on your
    0:15:43 team is sourcing this type
    0:15:45 of material, like coming
    0:15:46 up with this on a
    0:15:46 consistent basis?
    0:15:48 Yes, it is.
    0:15:49 I’ve, you know, I
    0:15:50 managed it from, from
    0:15:52 the beginning, but like
    0:15:53 you, I’ve got a lot of
    0:15:54 other things going on.
    0:15:55 So I found somebody that
    0:15:57 they run it, they manage
    0:15:58 the entire process, they
    0:15:59 source the content, you
    0:16:00 know, write up the
    0:16:02 descriptions and interact
    0:16:03 with the Facebook page
    0:16:04 where they are essentially
    0:16:05 doing everything at this
    0:16:05 point.
    0:16:06 Okay.
    0:16:07 I’m just, you know, kind
    0:16:08 of managing and making
    0:16:08 sure everything’s
    0:16:09 working well.
    0:16:10 So it’s hardly any of my
    0:16:11 own time.
    0:16:13 So I, you know, pay this
    0:16:14 particular person, you
    0:16:15 know, VA to, to run it
    0:16:16 and manage it.
    0:16:17 And I take whatever
    0:16:18 profits I get.
    0:16:18 Yeah.
    0:16:20 Is it mostly image
    0:16:21 content, video, like
    0:16:22 what’s working well?
    0:16:22 Yeah.
    0:16:24 It’s pretty much image
    0:16:25 content.
    0:16:25 Yeah.
    0:16:26 Where we might ask a
    0:16:27 question about, you
    0:16:27 know, do you remember
    0:16:29 this or, you know, did
    0:16:30 you ever experience this
    0:16:31 or whatever it is, you
    0:16:32 know, we’ll write
    0:16:32 something on it.
    0:16:34 We might put a caption
    0:16:35 on the image, you know,
    0:16:36 but yeah, it’s, it’s
    0:16:37 image content.
    0:16:38 We don’t do any video
    0:16:40 content at this point.
    0:16:40 So.
    0:16:42 Okay.
    0:16:43 That’s an interesting
    0:16:43 one.
    0:16:43 Yeah.
    0:16:45 How many views it took
    0:16:47 to make that $5,000 plus
    0:16:48 the ramp up period to
    0:16:49 get there and more
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    0:19:13 Yeah, so this particular
    0:19:14 page just got into the
    0:19:16 bonus program, I want to
    0:19:17 say July of last year.
    0:19:19 So that’s about nine
    0:19:20 months, something like
    0:19:21 that.
    0:19:22 And I don’t remember
    0:19:23 the first one or two
    0:19:25 months, but it was under
    0:19:25 $1,000.
    0:19:28 But quickly after that,
    0:19:30 since, you know, late
    0:19:31 last year, call it
    0:19:32 October, November, it’s
    0:19:33 been making a couple
    0:19:34 thousand dollars a month.
    0:19:35 So only, you know, two
    0:19:36 or three months of
    0:19:37 getting accepted.
    0:19:39 Now, the page was about
    0:19:40 a year old before that.
    0:19:41 Was it one that you
    0:19:42 started or did you buy
    0:19:43 it like for the
    0:19:44 existing base?
    0:19:45 I had started.
    0:19:46 I had started this
    0:19:47 particular page from
    0:19:47 scratch.
    0:19:48 Okay.
    0:19:49 And I was trying to
    0:19:50 send traffic to my
    0:19:52 website, you know, to
    0:19:53 you know, make things
    0:19:55 go viral, send them to
    0:19:56 the website, make money
    0:19:57 from the ads on my
    0:19:57 website.
    0:19:59 It was like maybe
    0:20:00 making a couple hundred
    0:20:01 dollars a month.
    0:20:02 But once I got accepted
    0:20:03 the performance bonus
    0:20:04 program, I went all in
    0:20:05 on I’m just keeping
    0:20:06 everybody on Facebook.
    0:20:08 I’m like hardly send
    0:20:10 them to my website at
    0:20:11 all because I’m making
    0:20:11 a lot more.
    0:20:13 And so to answer
    0:20:14 another, I think you
    0:20:15 asked like how many
    0:20:16 views does it take?
    0:20:18 So my highest viewed
    0:20:18 month where I made
    0:20:19 about just over
    0:20:20 five thousand
    0:20:21 dollars, there was
    0:20:24 30 million like views
    0:20:25 or impressions.
    0:20:25 Okay.
    0:20:25 Okay.
    0:20:26 Yeah.
    0:20:27 Like essentially 30
    0:20:28 million people scrolled
    0:20:29 past our content.
    0:20:29 Wow.
    0:20:29 Yeah.
    0:20:30 You know, at some
    0:20:30 point.
    0:20:31 So it’s a lot.
    0:20:33 But on Facebook, it
    0:20:35 can, I mean, things can
    0:20:35 absolutely, you know,
    0:20:36 blow up.
    0:20:37 It can add up.
    0:20:37 Okay.
    0:20:38 And the page has about
    0:20:39 a hundred thousand
    0:20:40 followers just so people
    0:20:41 are aware.
    0:20:41 Okay.
    0:20:42 So yeah, so it’s true.
    0:20:43 All those views have
    0:20:44 translated into some
    0:20:45 people clicking and
    0:20:46 saying, okay, we’ll
    0:20:46 follow you now.
    0:20:47 Exactly.
    0:20:47 Okay.
    0:20:48 Do you have a sense
    0:20:49 of how often your
    0:20:51 VA is posting new
    0:20:51 stuff?
    0:20:52 We post like 10 to
    0:20:53 15 times every day.
    0:20:55 So, so it’s a lot.
    0:20:56 So it’s, you know,
    0:20:57 it’s a serious thing.
    0:20:57 Oh yeah.
    0:20:58 Yeah.
    0:20:59 It’s two, three hours a
    0:20:59 day.
    0:21:00 She’s in there, you
    0:21:01 know, posting images and
    0:21:02 interacting.
    0:21:02 All right.
    0:21:03 Yeah.
    0:21:04 It’s a legit thing until,
    0:21:05 you know, Facebook ends
    0:21:06 their performance bonus
    0:21:07 program and it’s all
    0:21:07 crushed.
    0:21:10 But for now, you
    0:21:10 know, we’re putting a
    0:21:11 lot of effort into it and
    0:21:12 it’s working.
    0:21:13 Until, yeah.
    0:21:14 Until the rug gets, uh,
    0:21:15 gets pulled out.
    0:21:15 Right.
    0:21:16 The one that shows up
    0:21:17 a lot in my fee is Jeff
    0:21:18 Rose, um, like good
    0:21:19 financial sense.
    0:21:20 Like his stuff shows up
    0:21:20 a lot.
    0:21:21 Oh yeah.
    0:21:23 And he is like trying to
    0:21:24 trigger people politically.
    0:21:25 A lot of these, like he
    0:21:27 just grabs like screenshots
    0:21:28 of somebody, you know,
    0:21:29 and he’ll play both sides.
    0:21:30 Like I get the sense it’s
    0:21:31 like completely agnostic.
    0:21:32 I don’t really care.
    0:21:33 It’s like, but I want to
    0:21:35 spark those engagements,
    0:21:36 spark those reactions and
    0:21:38 try and get people to, uh,
    0:21:39 to click on this.
    0:21:41 I bet he, I imagine he’s
    0:21:42 doing pretty well with his
    0:21:43 bonus program as well.
    0:21:43 Yep.
    0:21:43 Yep.
    0:21:44 No.
    0:21:45 And that’s, that’s smart.
    0:21:46 We do similar things.
    0:21:47 So going to like your, you
    0:21:49 know, uh, Nintendo example,
    0:21:49 right?
    0:21:51 We might post an image of
    0:21:53 like nine games and say,
    0:21:54 pick your favorite if you
    0:21:55 were stuck inside all day
    0:21:55 or something.
    0:21:56 Right.
    0:21:57 And everybody, oh, Mike
    0:21:58 Tyson’s punch out, you
    0:21:59 know, that’s the one I want
    0:22:01 to do, or, you know, it’s
    0:22:02 stuff kind of like that.
    0:22:03 So it’s fun stuff.
    0:22:03 Yeah.
    0:22:05 It’s like engagement bait in
    0:22:05 a way.
    0:22:06 It’s like engagement bait
    0:22:07 sometimes.
    0:22:07 Totally.
    0:22:08 Oh, this is great.
    0:22:09 Yeah.
    0:22:09 I get people debating.
    0:22:10 Oh, for sure.
    0:22:11 Okay.
    0:22:12 I haven’t applied to do
    0:22:12 this.
    0:22:14 I, you know, maybe need, um,
    0:22:15 I need to find a VA like
    0:22:16 yours to come up with this
    0:22:17 type of content, even if it’s
    0:22:18 side hustle related, that
    0:22:19 could be an interesting way
    0:22:21 to, to grow the page and
    0:22:22 another revenue stream.
    0:22:23 If the, if the page views
    0:22:24 are going down on the main
    0:22:24 site.
    0:22:25 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:22:26 There’s potential there.
    0:22:27 All right.
    0:22:28 What’s, uh, what’s next on
    0:22:29 the list for you?
    0:22:30 Let’s see.
    0:22:31 We kind of talked about
    0:22:33 artificial intelligence kind
    0:22:35 of showing up everywhere, but
    0:22:36 there’s people that are truly
    0:22:37 starting like artificial
    0:22:39 intelligence businesses, right?
    0:22:42 So call it vibe coding, right?
    0:22:43 We now have people using these
    0:22:46 tools that they’re not coders,
    0:22:47 that they’re building software
    0:22:49 products, they’re building apps,
    0:22:51 they’re building little tools
    0:22:53 that people are paying for or
    0:22:54 using, right?
    0:22:56 And so if you have followed
    0:22:58 Peter levels on Twitter, for
    0:23:02 example, he’s built a game using
    0:23:03 artificial intelligence.
    0:23:06 It’s like a airline simulator.
    0:23:08 It’s a, okay, like a airplane
    0:23:10 simulator, uh, type game that
    0:23:11 thousands of people can play at
    0:23:12 the same time.
    0:23:14 So everybody’s like doing flight
    0:23:15 simulators together.
    0:23:16 So you gotta, I don’t know, I
    0:23:17 haven’t played it, but you’re
    0:23:19 dodging other planes and it’s
    0:23:21 just absolutely, you know, blown
    0:23:23 up, but he built it all with
    0:23:24 artificial intelligence.
    0:23:26 And he has a large following.
    0:23:30 So he, uh, has been able to,
    0:23:31 you know, get a lot of users
    0:23:32 very quickly, right?
    0:23:34 That’s a big part of it is
    0:23:35 having that built in audience.
    0:23:37 And now he has sponsors in the
    0:23:39 game that are paying like, Hey,
    0:23:41 we’ll sponsor the cloud or we’re
    0:23:42 sponsor the building.
    0:23:42 Right.
    0:23:45 And so he posted, but it’s, I
    0:23:46 mean, it’s insane numbers.
    0:23:48 Like it’s over $50,000 he’s
    0:23:49 made in this.
    0:23:51 It’s, it’s like less than a
    0:23:52 month old.
    0:23:52 Right.
    0:23:53 Wow.
    0:23:54 And so, but there’s lots of
    0:23:56 other examples now of people that
    0:23:58 are building tools and apps and
    0:24:00 actually selling them or, you
    0:24:02 know, allowing people to use
    0:24:04 them all using, you know, cursor
    0:24:06 dot AI as a tool.
    0:24:08 There’s lovable AI.
    0:24:10 There’s all these tools you can
    0:24:12 use where you basically chat, you
    0:24:14 know, you chat with the AI and it
    0:24:16 builds the app for you.
    0:24:17 Yeah.
    0:24:17 Isn’t that nuts?
    0:24:19 Just like natural language.
    0:24:20 This is what I want to build.
    0:24:20 It’s crazy.
    0:24:21 Yeah.
    0:24:22 We did a whole episode about
    0:24:24 this with Pete McPherson from do
    0:24:25 you even blog.
    0:24:28 He’s built out a handful of these
    0:24:29 different tools.
    0:24:31 His latest one is like, um, you
    0:24:32 know, an email list gadget list
    0:24:33 gadget, I think it’s called, but
    0:24:36 he’s got several of these exited at
    0:24:36 least one of them.
    0:24:39 And it was really interesting how
    0:24:40 you recommended.
    0:24:40 Okay.
    0:24:41 I want to start off by asking
    0:24:44 chat GPT, like, Hey, I want to
    0:24:46 build this big picture.
    0:24:47 What do I need?
    0:24:49 And it’ll list out like, here’s
    0:24:50 what you need to do.
    0:24:51 It’s like step two, go to
    0:24:52 cursor, natural language.
    0:24:53 Here’s what I want to build.
    0:24:54 These are the features of
    0:24:55 functionality that I want to
    0:24:55 have.
    0:24:57 Uh, this is what I’m thinking.
    0:24:59 It’s like, boom, boom, boom.
    0:24:59 You know, it’s like, and now you
    0:25:01 have a semi working version and
    0:25:03 then you ask, you know, if you
    0:25:05 ask it to troubleshoot itself and
    0:25:06 do the QA testing.
    0:25:06 Yeah.
    0:25:09 And now you got to go figure
    0:25:11 out the marketing and sales piece
    0:25:12 is always the challenge of that.
    0:25:14 And his recommendation was to
    0:25:15 like, you know, start with your
    0:25:17 own pains and problems, scratch
    0:25:17 your own itch.
    0:25:19 And like, we call the kind of
    0:25:21 unbundling of different tools
    0:25:23 where I may not need the whole
    0:25:25 feature set of an Ahrefs, for
    0:25:27 example, but like, if I could do
    0:25:28 this one little piece of it, you
    0:25:29 know, okay, maybe that’s
    0:25:31 something that people would be
    0:25:32 worth paying nine bucks a month
    0:25:34 for 19 bucks a month for.
    0:25:34 Yeah.
    0:25:36 Now it’s super fascinating.
    0:25:38 And I’ve seen, I’ve seen
    0:25:40 several examples, kind of like
    0:25:41 you mentioned, of people that
    0:25:43 are building tools, maybe
    0:25:44 they’re not even selling them,
    0:25:45 but they’re building tools for
    0:25:47 their own business to just make
    0:25:48 their life a little bit more
    0:25:50 efficient, like building their
    0:25:51 own essentially WordPress
    0:25:51 plugin.
    0:25:53 Like I want, you know, something
    0:25:55 to do this on my website or
    0:25:57 fix, you know, a thousand
    0:26:00 images, you know, and I, I don’t
    0:26:00 know how to do that.
    0:26:02 I’m not a programmer, but I’m
    0:26:04 smart enough to ask an AI tool
    0:26:05 how to do that.
    0:26:06 And it spits out code for me,
    0:26:07 right.
    0:26:08 To improve my own business.
    0:26:09 Yeah.
    0:26:11 The one that I got all excited
    0:26:12 about the other night was maybe
    0:26:14 this could just be like a custom
    0:26:16 GPT tool is like, so ever after
    0:26:19 every episode hit stop recording,
    0:26:21 my next step is to look at the
    0:26:22 transcript and kind of markup for
    0:26:24 the editor, you know, the, the
    0:26:26 questions that didn’t really land or
    0:26:27 where the conversation went off the
    0:26:28 rails, right.
    0:26:29 Just to tighten that up a little bit
    0:26:31 and provide a better listening
    0:26:31 experience.
    0:26:33 my thought is to build that custom
    0:26:35 GPT, like feed in a bunch of
    0:26:36 before and afters.
    0:26:37 Like here was the original
    0:26:38 recording.
    0:26:39 Here’s what made the final cut
    0:26:40 learned from this, maybe upload
    0:26:41 10 or 15 of those.
    0:26:43 And then like, here’s the next
    0:26:44 raw transcription.
    0:26:45 Like, could you provide some
    0:26:48 suggestions on what to trim from
    0:26:49 this episode to tighten it up a
    0:26:51 little bit and just to see what
    0:26:52 kind of results, maybe that would
    0:26:55 speed up my review process a
    0:26:55 little bit.
    0:26:56 Yeah.
    0:26:57 Now there’s like so many
    0:26:59 applications of different things
    0:27:00 that you can do across your
    0:27:01 entire business.
    0:27:03 It’s a, it’s an exciting time,
    0:27:04 right?
    0:27:06 But things are changing so fast.
    0:27:08 But the, the good news is that
    0:27:10 like such a small percentage of
    0:27:11 people out there, even though
    0:27:13 everybody listening may have heard
    0:27:15 that, Hey, I, I can actually get
    0:27:17 AI to do some coding for me.
    0:27:17 Yeah.
    0:27:20 Very, very few people actually take
    0:27:22 that step to actually build
    0:27:22 something still.
    0:27:25 So the opportunities there, you
    0:27:27 just still need to be willing to
    0:27:29 jump in, take a risk, you know,
    0:27:32 build out your idea and, and do
    0:27:32 it.
    0:27:35 So it’s potentially becoming
    0:27:37 cheaper to build a software
    0:27:37 business.
    0:27:38 And there’s still opportunity
    0:27:39 there.
    0:27:40 I do think for the next few
    0:27:42 years, there’s still only going
    0:27:43 to be a tiny sliver of people
    0:27:45 that actually take that step and
    0:27:45 do this.
    0:27:46 Yeah.
    0:27:48 This is an interesting one from a
    0:27:50 software entrepreneur like
    0:27:51 yourself, like, Oh, if we go
    0:27:53 back 15 years ago, you know, this
    0:27:55 long tail pro just take a fraction
    0:27:56 of the development time and
    0:27:58 effort and cost to, to build
    0:28:00 something, uh, today.
    0:28:01 Probably so.
    0:28:02 Yeah.
    0:28:03 Yeah, exactly.
    0:28:05 If I were to start from scratch,
    0:28:07 you know, I’d probably still have
    0:28:09 to work with a developer, but I
    0:28:11 bet I could get it 50% of the way
    0:28:12 there.
    0:28:13 You know what I mean?
    0:28:13 Yeah.
    0:28:14 Yeah.
    0:28:15 It would definitely be way
    0:28:16 cheaper to, to build something
    0:28:17 now.
    0:28:18 I like this idea of building
    0:28:19 something for your own use.
    0:28:21 And then maybe with a few
    0:28:23 tweaks, it’s almost like white
    0:28:24 labeling to a different
    0:28:25 audience.
    0:28:26 Like if somebody else of
    0:28:28 another podcaster wanted to
    0:28:30 utilize the same, you know,
    0:28:32 editing assistant, you know,
    0:28:33 maybe they could do that.
    0:28:34 And then maybe someday a
    0:28:35 Descript wants to buy that
    0:28:37 from me and I’ve got a nice
    0:28:38 little chunk of change for my
    0:28:38 exit.
    0:28:39 Yeah, exactly.
    0:28:41 And so here’s another side
    0:28:42 hustle trend that I’m seeing
    0:28:44 that’s very related, right?
    0:28:45 So I think we piggyback on
    0:28:48 this is creating free tools or
    0:28:51 free websites that perhaps
    0:28:53 are, you know, generated with
    0:28:55 AI or not, right?
    0:28:58 It either way, but I’ve been
    0:29:00 covering on my YouTube channel.
    0:29:04 I cover a lot of free games or
    0:29:06 free tools, you know, free
    0:29:08 calculators, a lot of these
    0:29:09 things, like for example, a
    0:29:11 couple of them are really
    0:29:13 simple tools, like a YouTube
    0:29:14 thumbnail downloader.
    0:29:16 All you do is you pop in the
    0:29:18 YouTube URL and it pulls the
    0:29:20 thumbnail for you, right?
    0:29:23 Another tool I covered is you
    0:29:25 upload an image of yourself and
    0:29:27 AI detects the shape of your
    0:29:28 face.
    0:29:29 You know, do you have a round
    0:29:33 face or an oblong face or an
    0:29:34 olive face?
    0:29:35 Like I didn’t even know this
    0:29:36 thing existed, right?
    0:29:38 But for example, the face shape,
    0:29:40 it’s called, oh, what’s the
    0:29:40 website?
    0:29:42 Anyways, I can’t remember the
    0:29:44 exact website that it’s called,
    0:29:46 but it gets something like
    0:29:48 two and a half million visitors
    0:29:49 every month.
    0:29:49 Wow.
    0:29:50 That are coming.
    0:29:51 People just, they want to know
    0:29:52 the shape of their face.
    0:29:54 It’s a little like face, face
    0:29:55 shape quiz thing.
    0:29:55 Yeah.
    0:29:57 It’s like face shape AI.
    0:29:58 You upload an image of
    0:29:59 yourself.
    0:30:00 It says, oh, you’ve got an
    0:30:01 oblong face, you know,
    0:30:02 congrats.
    0:30:04 They’re just monetized with
    0:30:04 ads, right?
    0:30:06 But there’s lots of
    0:30:07 calculators.
    0:30:08 Like there’s a sleep
    0:30:09 calculator.
    0:30:11 A fun one is snow day to
    0:30:12 calculator.com.
    0:30:14 You put in your zip code
    0:30:16 and it predicts if you’re
    0:30:17 going to have a snow day
    0:30:17 tomorrow.
    0:30:20 Like is it, what, what are
    0:30:21 the odds that school’s going
    0:30:22 to be canceled tomorrow?
    0:30:22 Right.
    0:30:23 Okay.
    0:30:25 And that gets like 3 million
    0:30:26 visitors a month during the
    0:30:26 winter months.
    0:30:27 Right.
    0:30:27 Wow.
    0:30:28 So there’s a lot of these
    0:30:30 little either free tools or
    0:30:31 there’s lots of games.
    0:30:33 There’s tons of examples of
    0:30:34 games out there.
    0:30:35 Like you could just think of
    0:30:36 some, you know, silly word
    0:30:38 game or shape game or
    0:30:39 whatever it is.
    0:30:42 You make it free, monetize
    0:30:42 with ads.
    0:30:44 The thing can be built with
    0:30:46 AI or simple coding, right?
    0:30:48 So, so a lot of these free
    0:30:50 websites, free tools, a lot
    0:30:51 of these things I’m still
    0:30:53 seeing do, do really, really
    0:30:53 well.
    0:30:55 And you know the secrets
    0:30:57 behind the, what’s driving
    0:30:58 the traffic for like the
    0:31:00 face shape predictor or the
    0:31:01 snow day predictor or anything
    0:31:01 like that?
    0:31:03 Well, the, like the face
    0:31:05 shape one does really well
    0:31:05 in Google.
    0:31:07 It is getting a lot of
    0:31:08 organic traffic.
    0:31:09 And this is something people
    0:31:10 are searching for.
    0:31:12 Like here, if I, if I search
    0:31:14 what’s the shape of my face, I
    0:31:17 want to get the, oh,
    0:31:20 detectfaceshape.com is the
    0:31:20 website.
    0:31:20 Okay.
    0:31:21 Right.
    0:31:22 Yes.
    0:31:23 People are searching for
    0:31:24 this.
    0:31:25 I was, I was blown away.
    0:31:27 Like the, the keywords, like
    0:31:28 it’s hundreds of thousands of
    0:31:30 searches every month for a
    0:31:30 bunch of these.
    0:31:32 So, so that is a Google play.
    0:31:33 The snow day calculator one
    0:31:35 gets a lot of repeat
    0:31:35 visitors.
    0:31:37 Once people find it, they
    0:31:38 just know, Hey, this is, I
    0:31:39 don’t know why so many people
    0:31:41 look at this, but people that
    0:31:42 want to get out of school,
    0:31:44 they’re, Hey, a hundred percent
    0:31:45 sounds like something my kids
    0:31:46 would check every morning.
    0:31:46 Exactly.
    0:31:48 There’s clouds today.
    0:31:49 Maybe I can get out of school
    0:31:49 tomorrow.
    0:31:50 Exactly what they’re doing.
    0:31:51 Yeah.
    0:31:51 And you’re like, well, it’s
    0:31:53 54 degrees, so don’t get your
    0:31:53 hopes up.
    0:31:54 That’s right.
    0:31:55 It’s fun stuff.
    0:31:56 No, this is cool.
    0:31:57 I, this has always kind of
    0:31:59 been on the, the back burner,
    0:32:00 you know, what, what is kind of
    0:32:02 the niche tool or a little
    0:32:05 calculator and, and maybe with
    0:32:06 the, with the help of AI, maybe
    0:32:07 it’s a little simple game.
    0:32:09 One that we talked about, um,
    0:32:11 after a recent trip, we went to
    0:32:13 Hawaii with the family and we’re
    0:32:15 snorkeling along and, you know,
    0:32:17 my six-year-old will tell you the
    0:32:18 story of like, you know, the
    0:32:20 giant turtle attack is like, of
    0:32:21 course the turtle is paying him
    0:32:22 no mind at all, but like the
    0:32:23 water was kind of cloudy and it
    0:32:24 shows up like two feet in front
    0:32:25 of our face.
    0:32:25 Oh yeah.
    0:32:26 Scary.
    0:32:28 So he’s like freaking out and I’m
    0:32:29 like, dude, did he see a shark
    0:32:30 or something?
    0:32:31 You know, it’s a, maybe we
    0:32:33 can make, um, like a crossy road
    0:32:35 style game, but it’s like turtles
    0:32:36 and sharks and jellyfish, like
    0:32:37 something where you have to like
    0:32:39 go across the ocean this way.
    0:32:39 I like it.
    0:32:40 There, you know, maybe there’s
    0:32:42 something, a little browser-based
    0:32:44 game that you could do based on
    0:32:44 that.
    0:32:45 And who knows?
    0:32:46 Maybe people find it.
    0:32:47 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:32:48 I honestly think there are
    0:32:51 thousands of ideas that sometimes
    0:32:53 the sillier, the better, right?
    0:32:55 Because they might have chance to
    0:32:55 go viral.
    0:32:57 I either create a really great
    0:32:58 game, right?
    0:33:00 Or if it’s something silly, that’s
    0:33:02 fun that people might talk about,
    0:33:04 you know, it’s got the opportunity
    0:33:05 to be shared a lot and can do
    0:33:06 well.
    0:33:08 So lots of opportunity there.
    0:33:08 Yeah.
    0:33:10 One, there was something, I saw a
    0:33:12 Twitter post about this and I’ll see
    0:33:13 if I can dig it up for the show
    0:33:15 notes, but it was a bunch of like
    0:33:17 software or little tool ideas.
    0:33:19 And it was, you know, sometimes it’s
    0:33:21 something simple, like how to improve
    0:33:23 images in Word or like, you know,
    0:33:25 maybe you can kind of piggyback a
    0:33:28 question-based query with Word, Excel,
    0:33:30 you know, some software tool and like
    0:33:33 maybe there’s some like layer on that
    0:33:36 you could add to that for a workplace.
    0:33:37 So, you know, maybe if people are
    0:33:39 swiping the company credit card, they
    0:33:41 don’t, they think less about it than
    0:33:42 pulling out their own money.
    0:33:43 So maybe there’s, there’s something
    0:33:44 there.
    0:33:44 Yeah.
    0:33:47 And to piggyback on that a little
    0:33:49 bit, you know, we talked about, Hey,
    0:33:50 you know, Google is changing organic
    0:33:52 traffic is searching for a lot of
    0:33:53 content creators.
    0:33:56 The one area that I am seeing organic
    0:33:58 traffic still do really, really well
    0:34:02 are these tools, these games, right?
    0:34:05 Because when somebody is searching for
    0:34:06 that particular problem, you know, what
    0:34:09 is the shape of my face or whatever the
    0:34:11 query is, you know, they actually do
    0:34:13 need to go to that tool or that
    0:34:15 website to, to get that information.
    0:34:18 So yeah, that is the one area that if
    0:34:20 you want to try and get that organic
    0:34:22 search, you need to be thinking more
    0:34:26 about tools, actual products or games, you
    0:34:27 know, something people can go to and
    0:34:29 actually use and interact with on your
    0:34:30 website.
    0:34:32 Okay, very cool.
    0:34:36 The next one that I have on my list is what
    0:34:38 I, what I’m calling the death of the online
    0:34:41 course in the rise of the higher touch, higher
    0:34:42 engagement offer.
    0:34:45 And I don’t know if this is a factor of AI or a
    0:34:48 factor of just like online course fatigue, where
    0:34:53 it’s like that lower ticket, maybe the hundred to
    0:34:58 $500 online courses make a really, a really
    0:35:00 difficult place to play in right now, in my
    0:35:00 opinion.
    0:35:03 And what we’re seeing is a shift towards the, you
    0:35:06 know, thousand, 2000, you know, maybe two to
    0:35:07 $10,000.
    0:35:11 Um, yeah, as much as $30,000 for like some really
    0:35:12 high touch.
    0:35:14 You have a dedicated coach who’s going to hold
    0:35:15 your hand.
    0:35:19 Maybe there’s some, uh, you know, on-site local, you
    0:35:21 know, retreats or workshops that are included in
    0:35:24 this, but it’s, um, it can kind of a transition
    0:35:29 away from a purely on-demand pre-recorded video
    0:35:33 based course to a more, uh, high engagement.
    0:35:35 Maybe there’s a community element to this.
    0:35:37 Maybe there’s live, uh, live coaching elements.
    0:35:39 And so if you’re thinking about structuring an
    0:35:43 offer, that’s just something to keep in mind for, um,
    0:35:44 you know, going forward.
    0:35:44 Yeah.
    0:35:47 And I think part of that is that, uh, there’s so
    0:35:50 much information for free on YouTube through video
    0:35:51 content.
    0:35:53 I think that’s part of it, right?
    0:35:57 Is that, Hey, maybe I used to buy a video course for
    0:36:02 $200 or $500, but now I can get 90% of the way there
    0:36:04 just with free content on YouTube.
    0:36:08 So, so people are like, eh, if it’s just video, maybe,
    0:36:11 maybe I’m not going to do it, but I do believe that
    0:36:12 you’re exactly right.
    0:36:16 Uh, more and more people are craving in-person type
    0:36:20 meetups, uh, or community based, you know, where you can
    0:36:24 interact either in, in smaller groups, you know, maybe you
    0:36:28 have a mastermind that’s part of this, uh, community that you
    0:36:31 can meet up with on a regular basis, or you get that more
    0:36:31 high touch.
    0:36:34 Like you said, um, that, that’s what I’m seeing.
    0:36:38 And, and same with me, you know, I am, I’m part of an
    0:36:43 online community that I paid for, for, uh, a few years, but I
    0:36:46 don’t pay for the, uh, education part of it.
    0:36:50 It’s really just the community part of it, uh, that I I’m
    0:36:52 there because I like the people that are in the community.
    0:36:56 And, you know, when I have a problem, I have a group of
    0:36:59 people I know, and I trust, I know they’re experienced, I can
    0:37:01 bring up an issue and I know I’ll get an answer.
    0:37:01 Yeah.
    0:37:05 This community based, we’ve seen people shifting from like a
    0:37:08 on-demand evergreen model to more of a cohort based.
    0:37:10 If you’re going to do the course thing, it’s like, we’re all
    0:37:11 going to go through this together.
    0:37:15 It has a defined start date and a defined end date.
    0:37:18 And we, you know, everybody, there’s no working ahead.
    0:37:21 Like we’re going to do this, uh, together like that safety and
    0:37:24 numbers or strength and community, uh, I think can, can work
    0:37:25 really well.
    0:37:27 And it makes it probably easier to sell than just something.
    0:37:28 Well, it’s, it’s always available.
    0:37:29 You can buy it tomorrow.
    0:37:30 You can buy it the next week.
    0:37:31 Doesn’t really matter.
    0:37:32 It’s like, you got to get in.
    0:37:34 Cause we’re starting on Tuesday.
    0:37:35 Yep, exactly right.
    0:37:35 Yeah.
    0:37:39 I think, uh, those types of models work well, seems to be the
    0:37:39 trend.
    0:37:40 That’s what I’m seeing.
    0:37:43 More side hustle trends with Spencer in just a moment, including a
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    0:40:25 One other trend that I found interesting, or maybe this has been going on forever, and I was just like playing in the organic sandbox too much, but like, you know, more and more entrepreneurs incorporating paid media, paid traffic, paid acquisition strategies, and really trying to break down their value chain of, well, what is a customer ultimately worth at the end of the funnel?
    0:40:27 Or, you know, what is a customer?
    0:40:28 Or, you know, what is a visitor really worth to me?
    0:40:29 What’s an email subscriber worth to me?
    0:40:32 How can I go out and profitably buy those customers?
    0:40:34 Like, it was insane.
    0:40:39 The amount of money flowing through Meta from one mastermind group or coaching group I was a part of last year.
    0:40:45 It’s like, everybody in the room was spending thousands, tens of thousands of dollars a month with Mr. Zuckerberg.
    0:40:48 And I was like, dude, what an amazing business that they built.
    0:40:48 Yeah.
    0:40:50 Yep, exactly right.
    0:41:09 But, I mean, that’s sort of the golden opportunity that’s always been there, is that if you know that it costs you a dollar to acquire a customer, and you can make $2 for every customer that you get in the door, you’re going to just spend as much money as you possibly can, right?
    0:41:21 And I’ve personally never landed on that perfect business where I can just spend tens of thousands of dollars every month, and I know I’m going to make tens of thousands of dollars in profit because I’m buying that traffic.
    0:41:22 But some people have.
    0:41:23 Some people have.
    0:41:28 You know, one of those examples that has been very public about it is Matt Paulson.
    0:41:39 And he owns MarketBeat.com, where it’s a financial newsletter business where he spends essentially as much money as he possibly can to get people on his email list.
    0:41:44 And he now has, I think it’s, it was either five or six million subscribers that he just passed.
    0:41:44 Wow.
    0:41:45 On his email list.
    0:41:48 So it’s a huge business at this point.
    0:41:56 And he’s calculated out, okay, I know I’m going to make this much in the first week, you know, because we send this many emails and this many convert.
    0:42:00 We know we’re going to make this much after the first month or lifetime value of the customer.
    0:42:04 And so he just keeps pouring gas on the, on the fire there.
    0:42:05 Well, yeah.
    0:42:08 So you can get that flywheel spin and yeah, spend as much as you can.
    0:42:08 Yep.
    0:42:09 Exactly right.
    0:42:13 And so this might be part B of this side hustle trend.
    0:42:19 The trend that maybe has been around for a little while is newsletters, newsletters as a business, right?
    0:42:29 I think is what I’ll put that category in is a lot of people are sort of foregoing the traditional website and they’re truly just focusing on.
    0:42:36 We just get people on the email list and then we have sponsors that pay to be listed in our email newsletter, right?
    0:42:37 A little ad spot.
    0:42:46 And so you get 50,000 or a hundred thousand people on your email list and you know you’re going to make a thousand dollars every time you send an email newsletter out to your list.
    0:42:48 You do that two times a week, right?
    0:42:50 All of a sudden you’re making eight, $10,000 a month.
    0:42:59 And so this has been a trend, definitely a side hustle trend that I’ve seen is monetized email newsletters and that is the platform.
    0:43:00 Like that’s it.
    0:43:01 Yeah.
    0:43:02 It’s, it’s interesting.
    0:43:05 Well, we create all this content with the goal of getting people on my newsletter.
    0:43:16 What if the newsletter is the content and that’s working really well for some people and maybe an even clearer path towards that lifetime value of a subscriber metric that you’re trying to.
    0:43:20 Figure out and like, okay, now I can go out and, and buy subscribers.
    0:43:26 Essentially, we’ve talked with Ryan’s men on like the Naptown scoop, like local newsletter for Annapolis.
    0:43:32 It’s like, well, you know, based on this ad load and this frequency, it’s like exactly what you described.
    0:43:34 Like, oh, I, yeah, I can totally go out and buy subscribers.
    0:43:38 But like for a local newsletter, it’s like, well, the population is 80,000.
    0:43:46 Like I’m going to cap out at some point where it’s like, you know, the market share is only so big, but for something that is a little bit broader than, uh, you
    0:43:47 really can go huge with it.
    0:43:47 Yep.
    0:43:50 Or you go to more locations, right?
    0:43:50 It’s true.
    0:43:51 Franchise it out.
    0:43:51 Yeah.
    0:43:53 We do five cities now, you know, or whatever.
    0:43:55 So, but yeah, yeah.
    0:43:58 It’s super interesting, you know, email newsletters as a business.
    0:43:58 Yeah.
    0:44:03 And we’ve got a few newsletter based episodes that went with Ryan on the local side.
    0:44:08 We’ve done, uh, Cody Sanchez has been on the show like early on in her journey, this journey
    0:44:11 to her first, like 50,000 subscribers.
    0:44:13 So definitely a viable model there.
    0:44:16 If, you know, if the websites are going to be a little more difficult, there’s other ways
    0:44:20 to monetize that content, other ways to create and share that content.
    0:44:27 The next one on my list is what I’m calling everything as a service.
    0:44:29 You know, you can’t just pay for something now.
    0:44:30 You got to pay for it every month.
    0:44:36 And I don’t know if this is, you know, the product of Netflix or product of, you know, everything
    0:44:39 is just, you know, it’s a tiny amount.
    0:44:41 It’s just, you know, a little bit.
    0:44:44 And it becomes from the consumer side, like, oh, well, this is, hey, sure.
    0:44:45 I can afford that.
    0:44:47 But at a certain point, it’s like the death by a thousand paper cuts.
    0:44:51 So it’s like, oh, it’s just one more, there’s one more little SaaS tool to add on.
    0:44:56 But from the entrepreneur’s standpoint, it’s almost baked into your pricing model, this
    0:44:59 assumption that it’s going to be a recurring monthly thing.
    0:45:04 And so you can lean into that and get people used to, used to paying for your thing over
    0:45:05 and over again.
    0:45:05 Yep.
    0:45:06 Yeah.
    0:45:11 And I was just looking at a perfect example of this, a hosting company, you know, where
    0:45:16 usually, you know, in the past, you might get a domain along with your, you know, hosting
    0:45:16 package.
    0:45:23 But now a lot of hosting companies, you get a full website builder, you know, that’s
    0:45:26 a visual builder, you get the hosting, you get the domain.
    0:45:31 Now some are offering AI tools, you get an AI image generator, you get an AI, you know, writer,
    0:45:38 you get, you know, an AI blogging tool, you get, you know, it’s like everything to like
    0:45:40 run your online business now.
    0:45:44 And it’s just one friendly, you know, monthly fee, right?
    0:45:49 But, but yeah, I’m seeing that more and more as you know, these, these companies that are
    0:45:51 building in lots of tools.
    0:45:55 It’s like, well, I’ll just, you know, spend 10 bucks a month to do all that then, I guess.
    0:45:56 Yeah.
    0:45:57 Makes sense.
    0:46:03 If you’re, you’re providing a consistent service, if there’s a community element to what you’re
    0:46:06 doing, like, Hey, you know, it’s 50 bucks a month, it’s a hundred bucks a month.
    0:46:08 Stay a member of this community.
    0:46:10 We’ve seen people doing paid newsletters.
    0:46:10 Sure.
    0:46:15 The free newsletter tier offers this, this, and this, but you know, the paid tier offers,
    0:46:17 you know, a way you’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg.
    0:46:22 So here’s, you know, more in depth, you know, curated content, whatever is behind the paywall.
    0:46:28 Now we talked about it in the context of little micro SAS projects, software tools, lots of
    0:46:30 different ways to, to go about it.
    0:46:35 But thinking of that recurring revenue first versus a, a one-off purchase.
    0:46:37 And this relates to the online course thing too.
    0:46:40 It’s like, Hey, I’m going to collect $200 one-time upfront payment.
    0:46:42 You got lifetime access to the thing.
    0:46:46 We’ve seen a little bit of a shift and maybe it’s the entrepreneurs getting a little more savvy.
    0:46:48 Well, that’s great for my launch.
    0:46:50 But then what happens 12 months later?
    0:46:54 It’s like, and I keep having to serving these, keep having to serve these people over and over
    0:46:55 again without collecting any additional revenue.
    0:47:01 So we’ve seen people shift that pricing model to more of a community-based or, or add a recurring
    0:47:01 element to it.
    0:47:02 Yep.
    0:47:04 I think that’s smart business.
    0:47:07 Anytime you can add recurring revenue, I think that’s smart business.
    0:47:08 Cool.
    0:47:09 Oh, you got another one?
    0:47:10 Yeah, I do.
    0:47:12 Um, I’ve got a couple more.
    0:47:16 This is a, I don’t know if you call this a side hustle trend, other than I’ve seen this
    0:47:16 opportunity.
    0:47:18 And I haven’t seen it talked about a lot.
    0:47:20 I don’t know if it’s been covered on the side hustle show.
    0:47:21 Maybe it has been.
    0:47:27 So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but people are publishing content on MSN.
    0:47:34 So I don’t know if you’ve seen small publishers, you know, MSN.com truly MSN.com.
    0:47:34 Yeah.
    0:47:38 A lot of older people tend to still have that as their homepage.
    0:47:44 It gets millions and millions of views every month, but you can be a publisher to contribute
    0:47:46 content to MSN.
    0:47:50 And, uh, I just had a buddy just this last month.
    0:47:58 He’s had a few things go really viral and he made, uh, just over $20,000 just from publishing
    0:47:59 on MSN.
    0:47:59 Wow.
    0:48:00 Right.
    0:48:06 Uh, and so it’s one of these really unique opportunities you can apply to get your website
    0:48:06 approved.
    0:48:12 Uh, so if your organic traffic is going down from Google, well, you can publish content
    0:48:14 on MSN.com.
    0:48:17 They’re still getting a ton of direct traffic, right?
    0:48:22 And the population of viewers on MSN is probably skews a little bit older.
    0:48:28 Uh, and so if you have content that does really well in that demographic, you can get millions
    0:48:29 of views, right?
    0:48:34 So it’s, I’ve heard of lots of people doing this, uh, but I happen to have a buddy that’s
    0:48:36 been giving me updates, uh, over those last month.
    0:48:37 He’s doing really, really well.
    0:48:38 Yeah.
    0:48:43 We’re a part of the MSN publishing program, Microsoft start program.
    0:48:45 It was maybe called, um, early on.
    0:48:46 It may have changed.
    0:48:52 We’ve never had anything go that viral, but you know, I think our best month is maybe 150,
    0:48:53 200 bucks a month.
    0:48:59 So it’s not, it’s not 20,000, but it’s another place to syndicate the content that you’re already
    0:49:01 creating for pretty low lift.
    0:49:07 One of the strategies that was shared with me, it’s like, if you can somehow like sync
    0:49:11 your RSS feed and I don’t know, I’ve got like a lot of short code and stuff in my posts where
    0:49:14 I was like, I don’t know if that would look right.
    0:49:19 Or I don’t know, maybe they would strip that out, but if you can syndicate your RSS and like
    0:49:24 if you’re creating listicles, like the top 12 ways to make money online in 2025, like
    0:49:26 it will create like a gallery.
    0:49:30 And so people have to page through obnoxious from the user standpoint, but MSN is racking up
    0:49:33 more page views, racking up more ad views, right?
    0:49:37 And so that’s going to improve your take, your, your rev share from that content versus
    0:49:40 having a, a scrollable, uh, list post.
    0:49:40 Yep.
    0:49:45 And I think, um, a lot of people are now publishing content, uh, directly just on MSN.
    0:49:48 It’s not even on their website, right?
    0:49:52 And so you can create these like image carousels or video.
    0:49:53 I can’t remember what they’re called.
    0:49:58 There’s a particular thing that you can get that it’s really just on MSN that you have to
    0:50:00 scroll through these, yeah, 10 images.
    0:50:05 And, um, so anyways, kind of an interesting opportunity that’s been around for a long time,
    0:50:08 but I’ve seen, uh, several people doing really well recently with it still.
    0:50:09 Yeah.
    0:50:14 That’s one of the, it’s one of the income streams, uh, for, for side hustle nation, but maybe there’s
    0:50:15 a way like everything.
    0:50:19 There’s a way to like triple down on the thing and really, really go for it.
    0:50:20 You just got to pick the one.
    0:50:20 Yeah.
    0:50:22 That you’re going to go all in on, right?
    0:50:23 It’s hard to do them all.
    0:50:23 Yeah.
    0:50:27 Publish, you know, 10 times a day or whatever it’s going to take.
    0:50:29 I remember talking with John Dykstra a few months ago.
    0:50:31 It’s like a really double down on email.
    0:50:33 Like when you say double down, what do you mean?
    0:50:35 He’s like, I sent three emails a day.
    0:50:36 It’s like, Jesus.
    0:50:37 Like, Oh, okay.
    0:50:39 And we’re over here doing one or two a week.
    0:50:41 Yeah, exactly.
    0:50:46 And next on my list is a service based side hustle observation.
    0:50:54 And that is the increase in acceptance for fractional support, or maybe a buzzword around
    0:51:00 fractional support, fractional CTO, fractional CFO, stuff like this, where if you have expertise
    0:51:08 in a particular field that calling yourself the fractional person, I think elevates you above,
    0:51:11 Hey, I’m your freelance accountant, or I’m your freelance bookkeeper.
    0:51:13 No, I’m going to be your fractional CFO.
    0:51:16 And I think it allows you to command higher rates, higher prices.
    0:51:23 And plus people are maybe becoming more willing to hire that type of person or agree to a contractor
    0:51:29 relationship with that type of person lends itself really well to niche agencies, niche
    0:51:30 productized service providers.
    0:51:31 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:51:35 I mean, we see this all the time, you know, from a user perspective, if I go to Upwork and
    0:51:41 I’m looking to hire somebody, and I get people that apply that are sort of generalists, right?
    0:51:45 They say, Oh, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, you know, I can do it all versus
    0:51:51 somebody that says, I create financial spreadsheets in in Google Sheets.
    0:51:53 And that is what I do, right?
    0:51:57 You’re going to hire that guy if you’re looking for a financial spreadsheet, and you’re going
    0:51:57 to pay way more.
    0:51:59 Yeah, I’m going to be willing to, right?
    0:52:04 I’m like, $30 an hour versus the $10 an hour guy, but I’m going to do it because that’s what
    0:52:05 you do.
    0:52:10 So if you can be a specialist, you know, in your field and sort of market yourself as either
    0:52:17 the fractional, or, you know, I am the go to email newsletter, optimization person, or whatever
    0:52:19 it is, you’re going to command that higher price.
    0:52:21 Yeah, yeah, exactly.
    0:52:27 I’m the go to person for viral Facebook partner program content in your niche.
    0:52:29 Exactly.
    0:52:30 And that person does exist.
    0:52:31 I know who that is.
    0:52:34 And they have a thriving business.
    0:52:34 Very good.
    0:52:35 Very good.
    0:52:43 The next one on my list is what I’m calling influencer marketing partners or influencer co-founders,
    0:52:46 where they’re almost like you might have a technical co-founder.
    0:52:50 Now it’s on what you might have a an influencer co-founder or influencer partner.
    0:52:54 And at the very top of the food chain, you have Mr. Beast and Feastables and stuff.
    0:53:01 But like, even lower down, we’ve had examples of e-commerce sellers on the podcast, you kind
    0:53:07 of tapping into this really, really broad segment of what they called micro influencers, people
    0:53:14 with like 500, 1,000 up to maybe 10, 20,000 followers, like not super viral accounts, but
    0:53:16 they’ve got people paying attention to them.
    0:53:18 They have been in the content creation game.
    0:53:23 They know how to make something compelling and sending them samples of the product and really
    0:53:29 leaning into that as a marketing channel versus trying to go out and, you know, find traffic
    0:53:31 and buyers the other way or other through other channels.
    0:53:33 I mean, it’s smart, right?
    0:53:38 Because a lot of times if you have a product, you’ve got a good idea, you have zero followers.
    0:53:45 If you can kind of skip that whole step of building things up over the years and partner with somebody
    0:53:49 that already has that influence, already has that following, it’s like almost a guaranteed
    0:53:51 way to launch to success.
    0:53:56 Now you just have to be willing to either give up a piece of your business or give up, you know,
    0:53:59 revenue of the business and you don’t figure out a model that works well for you.
    0:54:04 But I think it’s a smart business for influencers that, hey, there are a lot of people that have
    0:54:07 tons of followers, but they don’t have any good business ideas.
    0:54:10 Like they just, you know, they have influence.
    0:54:10 Yeah.
    0:54:13 And then there’s other people that have really good ideas.
    0:54:15 They just, they don’t have any influence.
    0:54:18 So if you can partner that up, it’s a, it’s a cool model.
    0:54:19 Yeah.
    0:54:24 We’ve seen it from the standpoint of, we’ll give you affiliate commission for everyone that
    0:54:30 you sell, like through Amazon creator connections or whatever, or we’ll just send you free product
    0:54:35 or we’ll pay you a flat fee to create this type of video, but lots of different ways to
    0:54:40 structure it, but I kind of the, the secret sauce seemed to be either casting that really
    0:54:41 wide net.
    0:54:41 Okay.
    0:54:47 I’m going to send out, you know, a thousand messages to these different accounts or finding
    0:54:51 like that one really influential partner to bring in who, you know, can drive consistent
    0:54:52 traffic.
    0:54:58 And it was, it was on my first million where Sean was pitching this like virtual assistant
    0:55:03 company for a while and it was like, he, he bought a stake in that and then turned around
    0:55:07 and used his influence from the podcast to like drive customers to that business.
    0:55:08 Yeah.
    0:55:09 Really, really, really smart.
    0:55:10 All right.
    0:55:10 What’s next?
    0:55:11 All right.
    0:55:14 This might be my last one, uh, that I have here.
    0:55:19 And I don’t know if I’m seeing it as a trend, but it’s something that I’m going to try a little
    0:55:22 bit and I could see this developing into a trend.
    0:55:28 You, you tell me, you know, whether it is or not, but actually going the other way, more
    0:55:34 people are going more online, more AI, more technology, going the other way, going back
    0:55:38 to physical products, items you can touch, you know, feel.
    0:55:45 So, uh, one thing that I am actually going to be trying is reselling items on eBay.
    0:55:49 This, you know, has been around for how many decades now?
    0:55:50 Yeah.
    0:55:52 Everything that’s old is new again.
    0:55:53 Everything that’s old is new again.
    0:55:58 So part of the reason I’m doing this, I do have older kids that are looking for summer
    0:55:58 jobs.
    0:56:02 And so I’m like, what’s something that teenagers can run?
    0:56:05 And so we just went out this weekend.
    0:56:07 We bought Amazon return pallets.
    0:56:10 I actually picked them up at a liquidation warehouse.
    0:56:12 Is it the, where you been store?
    0:56:16 Somebody, I was like, that’s a fantastic name for this bin sale place, but cause I know it’s
    0:56:17 in Eastern Washington somewhere.
    0:56:17 Oh, okay.
    0:56:20 No, there, there actually is in the tri cities.
    0:56:26 It’s not a bin store, but it’s, it’s actually, this guy has a bunch of contracts where he,
    0:56:33 I mean, he had like 300 pallets of just Amazon returns, Walmart return, you know, big box store
    0:56:34 returns.
    0:56:35 We bought three of them.
    0:56:39 We’re going to unpack it, try and resell it on eBay.
    0:56:45 So it’s, it’s not a new business, but I feel like going back to the basics of like, there’s
    0:56:50 going to be stuff that people are going to want to buy for cheaper than they can get in the
    0:56:51 store forever.
    0:56:53 That’s never going away.
    0:56:59 So the trend of going to a business that isn’t going to be as impacted by all the
    0:57:01 technological changes, I think is a smart trend.
    0:57:03 Yeah, exactly.
    0:57:07 The local plumbing service is not worried about AI, you know, he’s not going to come.
    0:57:09 Computers aren’t going to come and fix your pipes.
    0:57:11 Yep, exactly.
    0:57:15 If nothing else, you’ll get, you’ll get some, uh, content about the pallet, pallet flipping
    0:57:16 pallet return business.
    0:57:18 That’s exactly right.
    0:57:18 Right.
    0:57:22 So I’m, I’m hoping I get a summer job for my kids, maybe get some good content for me.
    0:57:26 I expect to make approximately $0 on this business.
    0:57:31 I’m hoping that my kids, you know, earn some money, but who knows, maybe it becomes profitable.
    0:57:32 We’ll see.
    0:57:33 I mean, that, that would be ideal.
    0:57:33 Yeah.
    0:57:35 But if I can break even on it, I’m happy.
    0:57:39 No, that’s a good way to expose them to this buy low, sell high.
    0:57:44 And is it, is it worth the work of picking through all these things, listing individual
    0:57:44 items?
    0:57:49 Like there’s a lot that goes into it and it sounds like a kind of luck of the draw and what’s,
    0:57:52 you know, you don’t get to see everything that’s in that pallet before you get it.
    0:57:57 But we do have, uh, an episode on pallet return item, pallet flipping.
    0:58:01 It’s just cause I, it’s, it’s something that comes up on people’s side hustle lists.
    0:58:02 I’m curious about it.
    0:58:02 Yeah.
    0:58:08 And somebody was, was making it work, but similar, like they made a couple, maybe 25 grand over
    0:58:10 the course of a year or two in doing it.
    0:58:15 But if they didn’t, it sounded like if they didn’t have the YouTube video of themselves
    0:58:19 filming, doing it, it’s like, I don’t know if we would really, it would be really worthwhile.
    0:58:21 But, uh, that’s a cool one.
    0:58:27 I do want to piggyback on your, well, what are the things that AI isn’t going to impact
    0:58:28 or take away?
    0:58:33 And part of that is this shift towards, uh, maybe a shift in interest towards local services,
    0:58:39 the window washing businesses, the house cleaning businesses, the power washing companies, the,
    0:58:44 uh, you know, mobile car detailing, like these blue collar type of side hustles where you could
    0:58:52 start relatively low cost, relatively low risk, and don’t even need, like if you have any level
    0:58:56 of digital marketing savvy, you’re probably going to be, uh, head and shoulders above the
    0:58:57 entrenched competition.
    0:59:02 I think that’s, um, definitely a trend worth mentioning because we’ve seen more and more
    0:59:06 young people, especially young people being interested in those types of businesses, like
    0:59:11 low tech, good old fashioned elbow grease, go, go do the work and get paid for it.
    0:59:12 Yeah.
    0:59:17 I think a lot of us that have been in the online world for so long, like we, we see all these
    0:59:20 shifts and these changes and it’s frustrating.
    0:59:23 And we’re like, oh, how are we going to make, you know, this online business work?
    0:59:26 Well, there’s this whole other world out there, right?
    0:59:32 Where you can go knock on a door and you can, you know, meet people in person and, um, you
    0:59:35 know, have a real phone number where people call you.
    0:59:41 Like there’s so many opportunities for side hustles, whether it’s local or, you know, in
    0:59:48 person or just, uh, you know, the not online business that, Hey, there, there’s a lot of
    0:59:53 things that people need and we’re, we’ll always need that won’t be impacted by these
    0:59:54 huge technological shifts.
    0:59:55 Yeah.
    0:59:56 Very true.
    0:59:58 Spencer, this has been awesome.
    0:59:59 I don’t know how many we were up to.
    1:00:01 I think definitely more than 10 at this point.
    1:00:03 So probably a good place, good place to wrap up.
    1:00:07 We delivered on our promise and hopefully a little bit extra on top of that.
    1:00:08 But what’s next for you?
    1:00:10 Any projects going on?
    1:00:11 What’s the latest with niche pursuits?
    1:00:12 Yeah.
    1:00:18 I mentioned the one, Hey, I’m, I’m kind of starting a little side business with, with my, with my
    1:00:18 kids.
    1:00:19 So that’s going to be fun.
    1:00:25 That’s kind of something I’m dabbling with the whole palette flipping idea, but, uh, going
    1:00:26 all in on YouTube videos.
    1:00:29 Uh, my YouTube channel’s done, uh, pretty decent.
    1:00:35 So where I talk a lot about different website ideas that might still be working, the type
    1:00:37 of trends that are still working online.
    1:00:40 So covering a lot of that, um, on my YouTube videos.
    1:00:45 Other than that, no, no big shakeups, you know, with, with what I’m going to be doing, I just
    1:00:47 keep publishing some content on YouTube.
    1:00:49 Got my Facebook page going.
    1:00:54 I, uh, have a little Amazon influencer, you know, side hustle.
    1:00:56 I’ve got, you know, videos there.
    1:00:59 So, you know, kind of keep dabbling on a few little side hustles, keep the niche pursuits
    1:01:02 brand going and we’ll see where it goes from there.
    1:01:05 I get the impression that, you know, that may be similar.
    1:01:07 You probably don’t need to work anymore.
    1:01:08 You’ve been doing this for a long time.
    1:01:10 You’ve had some exits under your belt.
    1:01:12 Like you’ve had some fantastic earning years and months.
    1:01:17 Is there a retirement plan or do you just keep doing this?
    1:01:18 Cause you love doing it.
    1:01:18 Yeah.
    1:01:25 You know, I’m still enjoying things, but I am very much, I’ve removed a lot of things
    1:01:26 from my business that I don’t enjoy.
    1:01:32 So I do have the opportunity and the ability like, you know, my Facebook page VA, I’m not
    1:01:35 going to go in and post things 10 or 15 times a day.
    1:01:35 Right.
    1:01:41 So I do enjoy the strategy of coming up with ideas and trying to plug in a system or people
    1:01:42 that can run it for me.
    1:01:43 So I enjoy that.
    1:01:45 So I’ll keep doing that.
    1:01:50 And, you know, I’m actually, I volunteer at a local pickleball organization.
    1:01:52 We have a pickleball community, right?
    1:01:58 So I’m looking for a more volunteer opportunities, maybe work a little bit less, but still, Hey,
    1:02:02 I like the excitement of, Hey, there’s this cool new idea.
    1:02:04 Can we make it work?
    1:02:09 So I haven’t quite retired yet, Nick, but I’ll, I’ll let you know, but I’m doing all I
    1:02:11 can not to work quite as much.
    1:02:12 Let’s put it that way.
    1:02:13 Fair enough.
    1:02:17 You know, the, the love of the game, parse out the stuff that you don’t like and keep
    1:02:18 what you do.
    1:02:18 Yeah.
    1:02:21 That’s, uh, you know, try and play in that same space.
    1:02:22 So I’m very cool.
    1:02:24 Uh, niche pursuits.com.
    1:02:24 Check them out over there.
    1:02:26 Check out the niche pursuits podcast.
    1:02:28 We’ll link up the YouTube channel as well.
    1:02:32 Like I said, going all in on YouTube, more and more guests are saying, Hey, I’m leaning
    1:02:34 in on the YouTube stuff, doing more video.
    1:02:38 If the website isn’t working as well, I can make, uh, I can make videos and it’s a lot
    1:02:39 of fun too.
    1:02:41 Thanks so much for joining me.
    1:02:42 I think this was, this was a blast.
    1:02:48 If you’re listening to this and you want to make some extra money and you’re not sure which
    1:02:52 path to take, I want to invite you to take our free quiz at hustle.show.
    1:02:54 You can do it right from your phone.
    1:02:55 It’ll take a couple of minutes or less.
    1:03:02 And then based on your answers, we’re going to give you a custom curated playlist to hopefully
    1:03:03 put you in the right direction.
    1:03:06 These are going to be eight to 10 side hustle show episodes based on your answers.
    1:03:08 Hey, what should we listen to next?
    1:03:13 And if you want more Spencer in your life and go listen to his three or four side hustle show
    1:03:17 appearances as well, but hustle.show that’s your personalized playlist quiz.
    1:03:21 And just again, a few short questions about your interests and goals, and, uh, you can get
    1:03:26 that personalized playlist, add it to your device, learn what works, and then go out and make
    1:03:26 some more money.
    1:03:28 Big thanks to Spencer for sharing his insight.
    1:03:31 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone.
    1:03:37 Uh, as always, you can hit up side hustle nation.com slash deals for all the latest offers from our
    1:03:38 sponsors in one place.
    1:03:39 That is it for me.
    1:03:42 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.
    1:03:44 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
    1:03:47 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show.

    What are the best side hustle trends you should look out for in 2025?

    These might impact what business you start and how you think about scaling it.

    And to help me out is a longtime friend and a friend of the show, Spencer Haws from NichePursuits.com.

    He’s been covering online side hustles even longer than I have.

    Almost all our content starts from the question of, “How do I make extra money?” To answer that, it’s important to know where the market’s been, where it is, and where it’s potentially going.

    Tune in to Episode 667 of the Side Hustle Show to learn:

    • what side hustles are thriving right now and which ones are fading
    • why email, AI, and even eBay are making big comebacks
    • how to future-proof your hustle in a rapidly changing digital world

    Full Show Notes: 10+ Side Hustle Trends for 2025

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

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  • Canada’s Role in a Shifting Global Order — with Mark Carney

    AI transcript
    0:00:04 Support for the show comes from Mercury, the fintech that more than 200,000 entrepreneurs
    0:00:06 use to simplify their finances.
    0:00:09 When banking can do more, your business can do more.
    0:00:12 With Mercury, you can watch your revenue climb with every invoice you send.
    0:00:15 You can stay current with contractors with built-in bill pay.
    0:00:18 You can unlock the credit you need to scale faster.
    0:00:20 Check it out for yourself at Mercury.com.
    0:00:23 Mercury, banking that does more.
    0:00:31 Soon enough, high schoolers will be donning those caps and gowns.
    0:00:35 But what comes next is less of a sure thing than it was a decade ago.
    0:00:41 Students are genuinely questioning if college is worth it and if college is really the right thing for them,
    0:00:43 knowing what they know about themselves.
    0:00:47 This week on Explain It To Me, a look at the new range of alternatives to college
    0:00:51 and how some high schools are setting up their graduates for success.
    0:00:55 New episodes on Sunday mornings, wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:01:02 What does it really mean to interpret the Constitution in a country that’s constantly changing?
    0:01:07 No judge decides a case based on the temperature of the day.
    0:01:12 Every judge, however, is aware of the climate of the season.
    0:01:17 I’m Preet Bharara, and this week on Stay Tuned, I’m joined by Justice Stephen Breyer.
    0:01:21 We get into how judges make sense of the law in a politically charged time
    0:01:25 and what that says about the values and pressures shaping today’s Supreme Court.
    0:01:27 The episode is out now.
    0:01:31 Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:01:37 Episode 344.
    0:01:40 Route 344 is a highway located in Columbia County, New York.
    0:01:47 In 1944, Danny DeVito was born, and the U.S. sent 100 million cans of Spam to soldiers overseas.
    0:01:51 What did the cannibal say when he ate his first can of Spam?
    0:01:54 Oh my god, this is the greatest thing since sliced fret.
    0:01:57 I like that.
    0:01:58 Okay, that’s not good.
    0:01:59 You want a dick joke.
    0:02:03 Okay, I am sick of getting Spam emails saying I can make my penis eight inches.
    0:02:04 I know how to do that already.
    0:02:06 I’ve folded in half.
    0:02:21 Welcome to the 344th episode of the Prof G-Pod.
    0:02:22 What’s happening?
    0:02:24 The dog is booked in business.
    0:02:26 The dog is a Palm Beach dog.
    0:02:28 I’m staying at a place called The Colony, which is sort of,
    0:02:35 if the Beverly Hills Hotel had an adjacent property in Florida that was not as nice,
    0:02:41 but, you know, sort of like, Glen Eagles has something called Glen Eagles Townhouse in Edinburgh.
    0:02:45 If this sounds like a total conversation of privilege, i.e. douchebag, trust your instincts,
    0:02:49 but they have a property in Edinburgh that’s not nearly as nice,
    0:02:52 this would be the less nice version of the Beverly Hills Hotel.
    0:02:56 I think it’s a fantastic, I don’t know, fantastic.
    0:02:58 I think it’s an, I’m, hotels are my hobby.
    0:02:59 What’s your hobby?
    0:03:03 Well, I read a lot of nonfiction, or I do a lot of, no, not me.
    0:03:04 I go to nice hotels.
    0:03:04 It’s my hobby.
    0:03:05 I won’t travel to cities.
    0:03:06 I’ll travel to nice hotels.
    0:03:09 By the way, if you’re looking for a wreck on any hotel in almost any city,
    0:03:11 daddy is where you come.
    0:03:15 Anyways, this is a small data point on a larger theme, and that is,
    0:03:20 there is an emerging cohort of services, companies, and hotels, and hospitality,
    0:03:23 and restaurants that I refer to as 64.
    0:03:26 And that is six-star prices with four-star service.
    0:03:28 And what’s happened is the following.
    0:03:34 The cohort that’s grown the fastest in the United States is not Latinos, it’s not seniors, it’s
    0:03:37 the super wealthy, or even just the wealthy.
    0:03:38 They have absolutely crushed it.
    0:03:41 And these folks like to spend money.
    0:03:46 And not only has their income gone up, or their wealth has gone up, but their mentality has changed
    0:03:46 since COVID.
    0:03:49 It’s sort of, you only live once, YOLO, let’s get out there, let’s travel.
    0:03:52 A lot of them had pent-up demand to travel from COVID.
    0:03:55 And they realized that, you know, we all meet the same end.
    0:04:00 We all come into this world in diapers, we all leave in diapers, but the reality is we all leave.
    0:04:02 And so luxury travel has just boomed.
    0:04:06 And there’s a natural gating supply constraint, and that’s the following.
    0:04:10 To build a luxury hotel probably takes the better part of a decade.
    0:04:14 By the time you find the financing, find a location, get the zoning, the permitting,
    0:04:17 construct the thing, train, get everyone, it takes 10 years.
    0:04:21 So there is a absolute supply-demand imbalance right now.
    0:04:24 The Beverly Hills Hotel, where I stay when I go to LA, which is wonderful.
    0:04:25 Which is wonderful.
    0:04:26 It’s like the Disney of hotels.
    0:04:30 You have the Pirates of the Caribbean, and then Space Mountain, you have the counter,
    0:04:34 you have the great restaurant next to the pool, then you have the polo lounge.
    0:04:35 It’s Disneyland.
    0:04:38 You never need to go anywhere else, and I love it because everyone will come see me there.
    0:04:40 Pre-COVID, it was about $700, $800.
    0:04:42 COVID, it dropped to $400.
    0:04:44 I was one of those guys traveling during COVID.
    0:04:47 And then now it’s $1,800 for a room.
    0:04:51 Six-star travel, and no one feels sorry for anyone here, has seen inflation, I think,
    0:04:57 that’s probably greater than any category because massive increase in demand with choked supply.
    0:05:02 The outcropping from that, or one of the manifestations of that, is that you can now stay at a hotel
    0:05:04 like this one where they have six-star prices.
    0:05:06 I won’t tell you what I’m spending in my room.
    0:05:07 For four-star service.
    0:05:13 And what they do is a cultural phenomenon, and that is they try and throw people at the problem.
    0:05:17 And that is they hire a lot of people who are these nice young people that, my guess is they underpay,
    0:05:21 that are not interested in being in the services industry for very long.
    0:05:23 This is a transition job, and that’s fine.
    0:05:26 I parked cars in college, and I was a pool boy at the Mondrian Hotel.
    0:05:32 Anyways, the 64 hotels, six-star prices, four-star service.
    0:05:37 The problem is when we hit any sort of speed bump, this shit’s going to get wrecked.
    0:05:42 I mean, you’re going to see declines in room rates of 70%.
    0:05:46 And that is companies have to figure out how much they price.
    0:05:47 I think pricing is the hardest thing.
    0:05:52 Do they price perfectly to demand and raise prices when they have power?
    0:05:57 Or do they decide, like the Four Seasons and some other places, even when they could raise their prices,
    0:06:00 they don’t because it pisses people off and creates ill will.
    0:06:01 And that’s what they’re doing here.
    0:06:06 They’re monetizing the shit out of this place and throwing weddings and bat mitzvahs.
    0:06:14 And they are, instead of catering to their current consumers, they’re renting out the pool if they see an opportunity to make another $10,000 or $20,000.
    0:06:15 And I get it.
    0:06:19 They probably spent a lot of money to buy this place and fix it up, and they’re very ROI-focused.
    0:06:21 But they’re trading off goodwill and a reputation.
    0:06:30 The Beverly Hills Hotel or the Hotel du Cap would never, ever do anything that gets in the way of the guest’s experience, if you will.
    0:06:32 God, just hearing this, I sound obnoxious.
    0:06:40 Anyways, this is, you’re going to see in the travel industry and the hospitality industry, a massive decline, I believe, in pricing.
    0:06:40 Why is that?
    0:06:46 The number of people traveling right now into the U.S. is crashing.
    0:06:47 Is crashing.
    0:06:48 Why?
    0:06:53 Yeah, I used to go watch football games at Uncle Sam’s every weekend.
    0:06:53 But guess what?
    0:06:57 Uncle Sam is a total asshole, and he’s gone fucking crazy.
    0:06:59 So let’s just hold off, and let’s stick at home.
    0:07:04 Have you seen those pictures of Toronto International Airport?
    0:07:04 I think it’s called Pearson.
    0:07:08 During Christmas break from last year to this year.
    0:07:09 Last year, packed.
    0:07:17 A ton of Canadians trying to get down to Palm Beach or to L.A. or to Naples or wherever or Miami to get some of that thing called sunshine.
    0:07:20 This year, lines are empty.
    0:07:22 No one’s coming to the U.S.
    0:07:23 Literally, tourism is crashing.
    0:07:24 And guess what?
    0:07:25 All this bullshit.
    0:07:29 All this bullshit around trying to bring back our great manufacturing sector.
    0:07:31 There are 12 million people who work in manufacturing.
    0:07:33 Do you know how many work in tourism in the U.S.?
    0:07:34 13 million.
    0:07:40 So we have this consensual hallucination that somehow we’re going to restore manufacturing by raising prices on everybody.
    0:07:42 Yeah, that doesn’t work, folks.
    0:07:53 But what is working is you’re seeing an immediate destruction, an immediate change in the tourism industry that affects and employs 13 million Americans.
    0:08:13 So you are going to see not a collapse, but you are going to see real pressure in organizations ranging from Disney to some of the bigger hotel companies to Marriott when all of a sudden the rates have to drop because we are going to lose at the margins a ton of Canadians, a ton of Mexicans, a ton of Europeans who think, you know what?
    0:08:16 There are a lot of nice places to travel.
    0:08:17 There are a lot of nice.
    0:08:18 I know.
    0:08:19 Let’s go to Disneyland.
    0:08:21 Let’s go to Disneyland in Paris, not the one in Orlando.
    0:08:22 Right?
    0:08:23 I know.
    0:08:24 We want to gamble.
    0:08:27 Let’s go to Macau or Monaco instead of going to Vegas.
    0:08:27 I know.
    0:08:28 I know.
    0:08:29 Great city.
    0:08:30 Let’s go to London.
    0:08:31 Let’s not go to New York.
    0:08:34 They have great theater in London, not in New York.
    0:08:38 We could not be more stupid right now.
    0:08:42 And you’re about to see the helm of the bobsled that’s going to get hurt, I think, first.
    0:08:43 Well, I don’t know who’s going to get hurt first.
    0:08:45 Who’s going to get hurt first?
    0:08:46 I don’t know.
    0:08:51 I think travel, I think the travel industry is about to start being in a series of earnings
    0:08:53 calls that are just going to get uglier and uglier.
    0:08:55 Let’s talk about a few people I talked to this weekend.
    0:08:56 Let’s go back to the tariffs.
    0:08:57 The big T.
    0:08:58 That’s right.
    0:09:04 Talk to the CEO of a catalog company that does a lot of housewares and homewares.
    0:09:06 And get this, right?
    0:09:09 $10 million worth of merchandise on a boat coming in from China.
    0:09:17 This person has to show up with a check for $14.5 million, the 145% tariff that was on as
    0:09:18 of 10 minutes ago.
    0:09:18 I don’t know if it’s off.
    0:09:24 But should it stay when the boat actually docks, or the boat, the ship, the tanker, you
    0:09:29 know, one of those big fucking things, when it docks at the port of Long Beach, this person
    0:09:33 has to show up or their company has to show up with a $14.5 million check.
    0:09:35 Otherwise, they can’t offload the stuff.
    0:09:37 By the way, most people don’t really understand what a tariff is.
    0:09:41 The stuff comes in, and then the person bringing it in has to pay a tariff to the U.S. government.
    0:09:44 So this person unexpectedly has to find $14.5 million.
    0:09:46 That is not easy.
    0:09:47 That is not easy.
    0:09:54 And just to add insult to injury, this person has to go find people to go down to the dock
    0:09:59 and then hire them to relabel and reprice every single item.
    0:09:59 Why?
    0:10:03 Because now the supply chain is so sophisticated in China that they have the
    0:10:08 factories, so in the labeling and the pricing and the tagging to save time and money.
    0:10:14 So this person has to figure out a way to get down there and undo everything on the products.
    0:10:14 What does that mean?
    0:10:17 This person has stopped all shipments from China.
    0:10:21 By the way, unlike many people in the Republicans or people in the Trump administration, my anecdotes
    0:10:22 are actually true.
    0:10:23 I’m not lying.
    0:10:27 Second person I talked to, oh, what is this person doing?
    0:10:29 It stopped all shipments from China.
    0:10:30 Too expensive.
    0:10:32 And it’s going to have to reduce their inventory.
    0:10:36 Their inventory is going to go down, which means not only are the products with this huge
    0:10:40 tariff going to be marked up, but this person is also going to have to increase their prices
    0:10:43 to try and get some of that money back with lower supply.
    0:10:47 Maybe she can have a more elastic pricing, increased prices.
    0:10:50 So prices are going up, see above inflation.
    0:10:53 But then this person is going to run out of product.
    0:10:58 Then this person also in their next quarterly earnings call is going to have to puke all over
    0:11:02 the earnings call because this person all of a sudden has to say, well, there was this
    0:11:05 $14.5 million expense we weren’t even planning on.
    0:11:08 That comes right off the bottom line, folks.
    0:11:10 So what do you have?
    0:11:12 Oh, also some other conversations I had this weekend.
    0:11:16 A German automobile manufacturer called What Would You Do?
    0:11:17 I’m like, I have no fucking idea.
    0:11:19 I can’t predict what this guy is going to do.
    0:11:25 A friend of mine from the fraternity at UCLA has built this really lovely little specialty
    0:11:27 retail or specialty products company.
    0:11:31 You know when you go to a conference and there’s branded shit everywhere and you get those, I
    0:11:37 got like 45 fucking water bottles that say Oracle or NetSuite or ZipRecruiter and then
    0:11:41 all the banners and all the logos and the cups and everything that’s branded, that’s
    0:11:42 a specialty products company.
    0:11:45 He’s built a really nice business, but three kids through school employed, I think about
    0:11:46 120 people.
    0:11:49 I bet it’s a 10 or $20 million business.
    0:11:49 I don’t know.
    0:11:54 And over the last 30 years, slowly but surely, he’s told me, everything has moved to China.
    0:11:58 They just have a better supply chain and they can do shit at a lower cost, right?
    0:12:00 He stopped.
    0:12:01 He stopped all shipments.
    0:12:07 There’s no way he can turn to his customers and say, oh, this, all this logo wear and these
    0:12:12 logo fleeces and these banners and this signage for the stage, it was going to cost you $8,000.
    0:12:14 Now it’s going to cost you 21.
    0:12:16 He just can’t do that.
    0:12:20 So he’s going to have to eat all the contracts he’s always committed to, right?
    0:12:22 While paying these tariffs, he has to come up with additional cash flow.
    0:12:29 He said, Scott, this is reminiscent, but worse, worse than COVID.
    0:12:31 It’s like my business has come to an end.
    0:12:34 It’s literally my business is coming in.
    0:12:35 My guess is he retires.
    0:12:40 I don’t think he’s got it in him to try and figure out all the new supply chain relationships
    0:12:44 and to come up with the additional capital that’s going to be required to support this
    0:12:45 business moving forward at universities.
    0:12:47 What’s going on?
    0:12:50 Corporations have paused hiring.
    0:12:52 What’s a pause?
    0:12:54 It’s called non-hiring.
    0:12:58 Because if they pause for three or six months, it’s not as if when they fire up again,
    0:13:00 they double their pace of hiring.
    0:13:04 If you pause your hiring for six months, you’ve basically reduced hiring and employment or
    0:13:08 new employment at that company by 50% that year because they don’t catch up.
    0:13:10 They just start again.
    0:13:15 And what would you do if you’re a large corporation trying to figure out if and what the tariffs will
    0:13:16 be and how to plan your business?
    0:13:17 Do you hire new people?
    0:13:19 No, you think we’re just going to press a pause.
    0:13:22 The worst thing about this, well, that’s not true.
    0:13:24 There’s a lot of things that are shitty about this.
    0:13:28 But we’ve decided to declare war on everyone all at once.
    0:13:32 The piece of the calculus that is missing here is the following.
    0:13:36 You need to assess when you go to war or you have a negotiation with someone, you need to
    0:13:38 assess your strengths, right?
    0:13:41 Your own weaknesses and then their strengths and their weaknesses.
    0:13:43 And what they have miscalculated is the following.
    0:13:47 They think their weakness is their dependence upon us.
    0:13:48 What they miss is the following.
    0:13:49 They are not self-aware.
    0:13:55 And that is Americans’ tolerance for pain is incredibly low.
    0:13:59 Women are born with a greater tolerance for pain because they have to endure childbirth,
    0:14:00 which word has it.
    0:14:05 And I have personal experience, observational experience here, not actual experience, that
    0:14:06 in fact, it is the real deal.
    0:14:10 Supposedly there’s a hormone that releases right after childbirth that gives women amnesia.
    0:14:11 Otherwise, they’d never fucking do it again.
    0:14:17 We are the man in this relationship, meaning the U.S. has a much lower tolerance for pain
    0:14:19 than China.
    0:14:24 China starves or has starved tens of millions of people when they felt it was in the best
    0:14:26 interest of the political party or the nation as a whole.
    0:14:31 We fucking freak out when we think that the final episode of The Sopranos was a mistake
    0:14:33 and start calling our cable company.
    0:14:36 This is how stupid these people are.
    0:14:37 What do we have?
    0:14:40 Let’s review less hiring, more expenses.
    0:14:44 The economy is slowing, which I’m sure the president got all sorts of data points on
    0:14:44 last week.
    0:14:47 But meanwhile, interest rates are going up.
    0:14:51 If interest rates and those costs keep going up, it can chase down that consumer sentiment
    0:14:52 and that certainty.
    0:14:53 And what do we have?
    0:14:56 The uncertainty index is at a 40-year high.
    0:15:01 Consumers in America feel more uncertain right now than they did when there was a virus that
    0:15:02 killed a million people.
    0:15:03 Think about that.
    0:15:04 Think about that.
    0:15:07 Consumer confidence is crashing.
    0:15:08 So what do we have?
    0:15:09 What do we have?
    0:15:10 Less hiring.
    0:15:15 Stagflation or threats of stagflation, which is Latin for we’re headed towards a depression
    0:15:16 if we’re not careful.
    0:15:19 We have retailers who don’t know how to plan their business.
    0:15:25 And we have an administration that has no ability to actually assess the current situation
    0:15:27 and what our strengths are and our weaknesses are.
    0:15:32 There is no better opponent than someone who overestimates their strengths and is aggressive
    0:15:34 and gets into the ring with you.
    0:15:38 And quite frankly, just isn’t as strong or as quick as they think they are.
    0:15:42 But they have the hubris to believe that they’re awesome so they don’t train that hard.
    0:15:42 They don’t think that hard.
    0:15:46 They just get in the ring and start flailing wildly.
    0:15:46 Guess what?
    0:15:51 In about three months, if not sooner, we’re going to wake up and all we’re going to see
    0:15:52 are bright lights.
    0:15:54 We’re going to be flat on our ass staring up.
    0:15:56 And all we would have heard is the ding.
    0:15:57 And what was that ding?
    0:15:58 Stupid tariffs.
    0:16:01 This is the definition of stupid.
    0:16:07 OK, with respect to tariffs and today’s episode, arguably one of our most important interviews
    0:16:10 or I don’t know, I think I think this means we’re big time.
    0:16:10 We’re big time.
    0:16:16 We speak with Mark Carney, Canada’s 24th prime minister and leader of the Liberal Party sworn
    0:16:17 in this March.
    0:16:21 We discuss with the prime minister of the country’s economic outlook how Canada fits into a shifting
    0:16:26 global order and whether the U.S.-Canada relationship can be repaired amid rising trade tensions.
    0:16:29 I really enjoyed this conversation with the prime minister.
    0:16:34 He’s clearly a very intelligent guy, thoughtful, especially enjoying the end.
    0:16:36 I asked him some questions more personal in nature.
    0:16:42 We’ll ask Prime Minister Carney his thoughts on our relationship and where we go from here.
    0:17:02 Prime Minister, where does this podcast find you?
    0:17:04 I’m in Montreal right now, Professor.
    0:17:10 The majority of the world spends their news is 10 minutes domestic and 20 minutes international.
    0:17:13 In the U.S., we’re kind of self-absorbed, narcissistic.
    0:17:15 We don’t talk a lot about other countries.
    0:17:20 I think most people have heard of you, have seen you on TV, but don’t know much about you.
    0:17:22 Can you give us sort of your backstory, your origin story?
    0:17:23 Sure.
    0:17:29 So, I was born in the Arctic, the north of Canada, a place called Fort Smith, Northwest Territories.
    0:17:34 I grew up in Edmonton, and those who might follow hockey was the days of Wayne Gretzky when
    0:17:35 he was playing for the Oilers.
    0:17:36 That was when I was a kid.
    0:17:42 I went away to university in the U.S., and then I worked on Wall Street or versions of Wall
    0:17:42 Street.
    0:17:46 I worked for Goldman Sachs in London and Tokyo and New York and ultimately Canada.
    0:17:51 And then I went in about 20 years ago to become the deputy governor of the Bank of Canada,
    0:17:56 which is the equivalent of the Federal Reserve in the U.S., and ended up being the governor
    0:17:58 during the financial crisis of 2008.
    0:18:02 So, worked with, you know, through that process of the financial crisis.
    0:18:05 We had a, quote, good financial crisis.
    0:18:10 If you can have a good financial crisis in Canada, we got through it better than anyone else, emerged
    0:18:10 stronger.
    0:18:18 And then, ultimately, I kind of, slightly bizarrely, I was asked to become governor of
    0:18:18 the Bank of England.
    0:18:21 So, I became the first foreigners governor of the Bank of England.
    0:18:26 And I did that through the period of the Brexit referendum, as it turned out, and the aftermath
    0:18:26 of that.
    0:18:31 And then came back Canada 2020, right in the middle of COVID.
    0:18:35 You had a, I think you probably had a better experience during COVID if I, listening to
    0:18:38 your podcasts, if I read it correctly, than I did.
    0:18:42 And then I worked, I worked, did a lot of work on climate change for the United Nations, sort
    0:18:47 of pro bono, and organizing the financial sector to help address climate change.
    0:18:50 But also, at the same time, I worked for Brookfield, which is a big asset manager.
    0:18:52 And I was chair of Bloomberg.
    0:18:58 And then, as of the start of January, I first ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party,
    0:19:01 which is one of the main parties here.
    0:19:04 And winning that, became prime minister about a month ago.
    0:19:06 And now I’m running for election.
    0:19:10 We have much, last point, much shorter elections than the United States.
    0:19:15 Our campaign is 37 days, and we’ve got two weeks roughly left to go.
    0:19:19 So, a big friend of the pod is Ian Brenner, the geopolitical strategist.
    0:19:25 And he was on the pod last week, and he described you as a, open quote, generational mind for
    0:19:27 Canada on the global stage, close quote.
    0:19:33 In your view, what role does Canada play on the global stage?
    0:19:37 So, we play, I mean, we play several roles.
    0:19:39 We’re a member of the G7.
    0:19:43 In fact, we are chair of the G7 this year, so I’m chair of the G7.
    0:19:47 We’re a member of the Commonwealth, which is the old UK grouping.
    0:19:52 We’re a member of the Francophonie, which is the, obviously, the Francophone grouping of
    0:19:53 about 60 countries.
    0:19:59 So, we have our role in several different, let’s call it organizations, self-appointed organizations
    0:20:00 or groupings.
    0:20:07 I think one of the roles we play potentially in the new or the emerging global order is partly
    0:20:09 based on, you know, our assets.
    0:20:14 We are an energy, an emerging energy superpower in all forms of energy.
    0:20:18 We’re one of the largest critical mineral suppliers in the world.
    0:20:19 We’re pretty good in AI.
    0:20:23 A lot of people claim that we’re, you know, but we’re, I think, legitimately claiming that.
    0:20:30 And so, we can play a role as a country that believes in open markets, open systems, believes
    0:20:33 in trade, open ideas, diversity.
    0:20:40 We can play a role with like-minded countries to kind of reconstruct that bit of the international
    0:20:44 order, which has been, I’m in Montreal, they would say bouleversé.
    0:20:51 It’s been upended in the course of, more intensively in the last few months, but a process that
    0:20:54 really began with the financial crisis 15 years ago.
    0:20:57 And just for our listeners, the elephant in the room is terrible, so I’m going to get to
    0:20:58 that.
    0:21:04 But I want to start with, if you were to, so typically in the U.S., and I imagine the same
    0:21:08 way in Canada, when a new leader is elected, assuming you get elected, they have sort of a
    0:21:14 honeymoon period and an opportunity to get more done in their first year, more grace, if you
    0:21:17 will, than in the next two or three years.
    0:21:21 What would you identify as the two or three biggest issues facing Canada, and what’s your
    0:21:21 agenda?
    0:21:25 If you could pick two or three things you’re really going to go hard at your first year as
    0:21:26 prime minister, what are those things?
    0:21:32 As you just suggested, I’ll set tariffs aside and focus in on three things.
    0:21:36 First is having free trade actually within Canada.
    0:21:43 We have basically 13 economies here, 10 different provinces and territories, all with their own
    0:21:43 rules.
    0:21:48 Hard to move credentials and sometimes goods and services across the country, far harder
    0:21:49 than it should be.
    0:21:53 So a process, a very quick process of free trade.
    0:21:58 And by the way, just to put orders of magnitude on this, a reasonable estimate of the economic
    0:22:03 benefit of that is bigger than the economic hit from the worst version of the Trump tariffs.
    0:22:06 So we can kind of give ourselves more than others can.
    0:22:09 Second thing is we have a huge housing problem here.
    0:22:15 And particularly, obviously, for your younger Canadians, first and foremost, we need to double
    0:22:16 the rate of housing.
    0:22:21 And we need to, I won’t go into all the details, I’m happy to, but we need some major reforms
    0:22:22 in order to do that.
    0:22:26 We can do it in a way that actually leverages, you know, the Canadian supply chain technology
    0:22:31 and all the lumber we potentially won’t be able to send southbound to the U.S.
    0:22:35 And then the third thing, look, the world’s fluid.
    0:22:37 I’m afraid this kind of comes towards tariffs.
    0:22:42 But I think the trading system is going to get reordered fairly quickly.
    0:22:47 And so in the course of the first year, the question is, well, who are we going to deepen
    0:22:50 our relationships with other than the United States?
    0:22:54 And those relationships, last point, are both economic and security.
    0:22:57 The world’s a much more dangerous and divided place.
    0:22:59 Security concerns are top of the list.
    0:23:04 So who in Europe or European Union as a whole, UK, who in Asia, where are we going to partnership?
    0:23:11 If I can say one last thing, Scott, is, you know, just being shaken so hard by what’s
    0:23:18 happening in the United States, Canadians are very open to all of those priorities.
    0:23:20 Like people are up for big things.
    0:23:23 They’re coming together and they’re willing to do big things because they know they have
    0:23:25 to do big things because the world’s changed so much.
    0:23:28 Well, let’s use that as a segue into tariffs.
    0:23:33 So I haven’t checked my Apple Watch in the last two minutes, so I don’t know the state of
    0:23:34 things right now.
    0:23:38 Now, you’re, my understanding, Canada’s our largest trading partner, no?
    0:23:41 We tend to be obsessed with China, but you’re our largest trading partner, no?
    0:23:43 We’re your most important, yeah.
    0:23:44 Yeah.
    0:23:46 So give us the state of play.
    0:23:51 You’re the man representing our largest trading partner economically.
    0:23:58 As, to the best of your knowledge, describe the state of play between what is happening
    0:24:00 between the U.S. and Canada.
    0:24:02 Where does it sit at this moment?
    0:24:09 So I’ll start with the bad news or the, as we would call it, the unjustified news, which
    0:24:10 is what tariffs are in place.
    0:24:17 We have still in place today tariffs that were originally justified because of fentanyl, fentanyl
    0:24:20 coming across the border from Canada.
    0:24:26 Just for the listeners who haven’t tracked this, less than 1% of the fentanyl imported into
    0:24:27 the United States comes from Canada.
    0:24:32 In fact, you’ve got a sophisticated audience, so I can say things like 19 basis points of
    0:24:34 the fentanyl comes across the border from Canada.
    0:24:39 We’ve taken major steps to reinforce the border, drones, helicopters, other things, and it’s
    0:24:44 fallen by a further 90, 9-0% over the course of the last three months.
    0:24:49 But those tariffs hit a wide range of goods in Canada, hit a wide range of goods, and there’s
    0:24:51 a few carve-outs for that.
    0:24:55 But, you know, it’s hitting hundreds of billions of goods, and those are 25% tariffs from the United
    0:24:56 States.
    0:25:00 Then we are also caught, secondly, we’re also caught in the steel and aluminum tariffs,
    0:25:05 which are this, quote, national security tariffs, so-called 232 tariffs.
    0:25:08 We are the largest supplier of aluminum in the United States.
    0:25:13 We’re one of the most important suppliers of steel to the United States, and you can roll
    0:25:17 those up into hundreds of thousands of jobs in the U.S., depending on Canadian steel and
    0:25:18 aluminum.
    0:25:22 And then the third thing is we are caught in the auto tariffs.
    0:25:27 As people probably know, but I’ll just personalize it, well, they wouldn’t know this fact.
    0:25:32 There was something called the AutoPAC, which was signed the year I was born, you know, 60
    0:25:32 years ago.
    0:25:38 And we have had an increasingly integrated auto system with the United States for 60 years.
    0:25:39 It got tighter with the Canada-U.S.
    0:25:42 Free Trade Agreement 40 years ago, and then with NAFTA and the successor.
    0:25:48 So literally, you know, these companies and the supply chains, the main parts suppliers, they’re
    0:25:50 virtually fully integrated.
    0:25:57 And now into the middle of this is coming 25% U.S. tariffs, which are, you know, in an
    0:26:01 industry, as you know, that has, you know, 5%, 7% margins.
    0:26:04 I mean, this is absolutely damaging.
    0:26:06 So we have three sets of tariffs.
    0:26:11 We are not subject yet to the so-called reciprocal tariffs to the U.S.
    0:26:17 So the state of the relationship is strained, to say the least, because all of these tariffs
    0:26:21 are in violation of what you call USMCA.
    0:26:24 We call KUSMA, the same trade agreement.
    0:26:31 The good news or the better news is that three weeks ago or so, President Trump and I spoke
    0:26:36 and we agreed that following the Canadian election, there would be the beginning of a negotiation
    0:26:40 of a comprehensive, a new comprehensive relationship, economic security.
    0:26:45 So we are in the queue, so to speak, for those discussions.
    0:26:52 It strikes me that these actions are about to inspire what they envision, that is a tremendous
    0:26:56 amount of dealmaking, but dealmaking around us.
    0:27:03 It just seems logical, and this is a thesis, and I want you to validate or nullify it.
    0:27:09 But if I’m a G7 nation and I have a trading partner that I used to be able to count on,
    0:27:13 that was mutually very prosperous, and now I just not only can’t count on them, but have
    0:27:18 no idea who I’m waking up next to, that it’s incredible motivation to start establishing
    0:27:20 dialogue with other nations.
    0:27:27 Respond to that thesis, is Canada aggressively and actively trying to reroute around America
    0:27:27 right now?
    0:27:35 Well, I would say, you know, trade is a world of and, so, you know, it’s a positive
    0:27:39 sum game, as you know, or both sides, you do it right, both sides win, it’s not a zero sum
    0:27:39 game.
    0:27:46 So I might not choose the phrase around America, but obviously, you know, look, if we’re, if
    0:27:50 we’ve got excess capacity or we have things we’re going to develop, I’ll use the example
    0:27:56 of critical minerals, where we’re a big player, who are, with whom are we going to trade?
    0:27:58 Who can we rely on?
    0:28:04 You know, we’re, we’re, we’re sitting here, we supply 70% of the potash to the United States,
    0:28:08 you know, one of the most important components of fertilizer, 70%.
    0:28:12 And there is a 25% tariff being put on potash.
    0:28:17 So when you think about it, well, geez, maybe I might want to take another, I’ll call it
    0:28:20 a commodity, even though critical metals and minerals are more than that.
    0:28:24 If we’re going to develop those, maybe we want to develop them with a supply chain to
    0:28:26 someone who’s not going to slap a tariff like that on.
    0:28:28 So that I’m validating your thesis.
    0:28:34 We, we, yeah, we have begun to intensify discussions with other, other countries, other trading blocks.
    0:28:38 We have a pretty good set of trading, trade deals in place.
    0:28:39 We have a free trade deal with Europe.
    0:28:40 We have a free trade.
    0:28:45 We’re part of the trans, what was called the Trans-Pacific Partnership in Asia.
    0:28:48 So we have a number of those, but we, we’re, we’re looking to reinforce them.
    0:28:54 Um, and look, we’re, we are hopeful, maybe hopeful isn’t the right word, but we’re open
    0:29:01 open is a better way to put it to, um, a restart of the U S trading relationship, um, provided
    0:29:06 there’s willingness on the other side and we can come to one of those positive, positive sum deals.
    0:29:12 So I would imagine you speak to a lot of other G7 leaders or G20 leaders.
    0:29:19 What’s the general consensus around American leadership right now?
    0:29:26 And I realize that you have more restraint and are a bit more or tangibly more diplomatic,
    0:29:33 but what is the thesis among this group of world leaders around what is going on here?
    0:29:35 Uh, how do they explain it?
    0:29:37 How do you explain it to each other?
    0:29:38 Or can you explain it to each other?
    0:29:43 Cause quite frankly, here in the U S a lot of this doesn’t even make sense to us.
    0:29:45 And, and this is our leadership.
    0:29:52 Well, I think the first thing is to recognize as, as I have said, and, uh, a number of those
    0:29:59 other leaders have said, including G7 leaders is that the system as we knew it is over, right?
    0:30:04 When the anchor of the system is fundamental, has done a series of measures, uh, that the U S has
    0:30:07 done, but also set out a series of objectives.
    0:30:11 And I’ll come back to that, uh, but the set of a series of objectives that are just inconsistent
    0:30:14 with the way the system has been operating for decades, right?
    0:30:17 Basically since the fall of the Berlin wall intensified since then.
    0:30:21 So you recognize that that system anchored on the U S is over.
    0:30:24 That then leads to how do you react to it?
    0:30:28 There’s partly the negotiation with the U S and which you’ve been focused on, but then it’s
    0:30:30 also, how do we deal with each other?
    0:30:34 Which we’ve also touched on in terms of what the U S is trying to accomplish.
    0:30:40 I think it’s, uh, you know, I take, uh, go back to, uh, uh, Peter Thiel of, uh, 10 years
    0:30:45 ago saying, take Donald Trump literally, uh, and seriously, but take him literally and seriously.
    0:30:52 And, you know, they looking to, um, to balance, uh, where to the extent possible to balance trade,
    0:30:57 which is not the way we think about things, but is the way the U S thinks about things.
    0:31:04 And, you know, you do get into odd situations like Canada, where we actually run a, America
    0:31:07 has a trade surplus with Canada in goods.
    0:31:12 The only reason there’s an overall deficit with Canada is because of basically oil imports.
    0:31:16 Well, if you don’t want our oil imports, that will be a bit of a problem for a period of time.
    0:31:21 Cause you know, the only other option for the refineries that take Canadian oil is Venezuela.
    0:31:25 And that’s, uh, you know, they’re just banned those, uh, those imports as well.
    0:31:30 So there it’s not, the logic isn’t entirely consistent.
    0:31:30 Let’s put it that way.
    0:31:35 But I think at the core recognizing this desire for more balanced trade.
    0:31:42 And so from the U S administration question, I think in our mind is there are some industries,
    0:31:47 autos, particularly aerospace would have another element of this.
    0:31:52 Um, and then a number of commodity and there are a couple of industries that are so integrated
    0:32:00 that it’s hard to see why for us competitiveness, let alone North American competitiveness, it
    0:32:01 makes sense to pull them apart.
    0:32:03 That would be our argument.
    0:32:08 And then there’s other industries, uh, forest products, uh, steel, aluminum as three big examples
    0:32:11 where we’re, uh, uh, agriculture potash.
    0:32:12 I gave that example, nickel.
    0:32:17 I could go on where we’re such huge suppliers and such a safe, secure supplier.
    0:32:23 Again, it doesn’t really to us make sense that that would be displaced or tariffed.
    0:32:28 So, you know, we’ve seen that this, uh, the trade policy is evolving as, uh, some of these
    0:32:30 choke points become more evident.
    0:32:33 And, uh, you know, I suspect, I suspect we will see more.
    0:32:40 Maybe I’ll say one other thing if I could, which is, it strikes me a bit in the, in the
    0:32:48 consistencies of, uh, U S policy is a desire to have some minimum tariff if possible, um,
    0:32:51 which has a revenue raising element to it.
    0:32:56 And I think, you know, tied into, uh, U S tax policy, that is, uh, that is also a possibility
    0:32:56 here.
    0:33:01 My understanding is about 99% of our trade is tariff-free and that 1% is around things
    0:33:02 like dairy.
    0:33:07 Haven’t we largely been kind of a trade-free zone between Canada and the U S today?
    0:33:08 Yeah.
    0:33:09 Yeah, we have.
    0:33:13 And then we have, you know, like any trading partners, you get the odd trade irritant and,
    0:33:17 uh, you know, trade dispute, but we have processes to deal with those.
    0:33:23 And so we had a, uh, you know, we have, uh, on, ongoing things around forest products,
    0:33:26 sometimes, uh, steel and aluminum and, you know, that’s handled.
    0:33:31 But yeah, trade is basically, uh, tariff-free and, you know, when it, when it’s your biggest
    0:33:35 trading partner, pulling that apart is, is, is quite costly.
    0:33:40 It’s costly for both, you know, from a Canadian perspective and, you know, I’m out on the road,
    0:33:41 I’m, I’m running for office.
    0:33:42 I’m talking to lots of Canadians up and down.
    0:33:49 There is a very strong sense of, yeah, this is going to cost us, but we’re willing to take
    0:33:52 the price to restructure our economy in a different direction.
    0:33:58 Like, it’s been such a sense of, uh, I mean, the word that’s used is betrayal.
    0:34:03 So, you know, we signed a deal, we’ve had this partnership, we observe it in good faith,
    0:34:07 we set up businesses, we, you know, we know lots of Americans, we like Americans, we listen to
    0:34:09 American podcasts, you know, there’s such a thing.
    0:34:15 And all of a sudden, you know, we get these, uh, you know, these attacks is, which is the
    0:34:17 way these, this is viewed is okay.
    0:34:22 So it’s going to cost us for a period of time, uh, and we’ll build out and, uh, build with
    0:34:23 others.
    0:34:26 We’ll be right back after a quick break.
    0:34:36 Unwrap the early days of your favorite hockey stars with Tim’s new retrospective rookies
    0:34:41 hockey cards featuring exclusive NHL and PWHL players and retired legends.
    0:34:45 Collect them all only at Tim’s at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time.
    0:34:53 We borrow money from Chinese peasants to buy the things those Chinese peasants manufacture.
    0:34:56 That is not a recipe for economic prosperity.
    0:35:01 Vice President J.D. Vance defending the Trump administration’s tariffs on China hit China
    0:35:03 squarely below the belt.
    0:35:05 And China hit back with memes.
    0:35:06 Cue music.
    0:35:16 Americans on assembly lines at sewing machines in fields, eating chips, drinking Coke, looking
    0:35:19 ill-prepared for factory work, to put it politely, which the memes are not.
    0:35:24 China’s argument since this trade war began is that America cannot win it.
    0:35:27 China is tougher, more resilient, and better prepared.
    0:35:35 On Today Explained, as this trade war escalates, we ask, what if that’s true?
    0:35:42 Today Explained, every weekday.
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    0:35:55 This is Kenny Beecham, and playoff basketball is finally here.
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    0:36:11 And which role player is about to become a household name?
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    0:36:18 Will the East be as predictable as we think?
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    0:36:56 You were the first non-Brit to serve to run the Bank of England.
    0:36:59 You’re sort of the Bo Jackson of global economic leadership.
    0:37:05 I’ve compared this, and it might be a crude analogy, but I want you to add some color or
    0:37:06 fill in the blanks here.
    0:37:11 I’ve described these tariffs as the biggest own goal since Brexit.
    0:37:18 What similarities do you see, and how does that inform how you respond to this and be what
    0:37:19 you think ultimately the outcome is?
    0:37:24 Well, I think there are a lot of similarities.
    0:37:28 And it starts with the economics of what’s happening.
    0:37:33 Actually, briefly describe Brexit, because just give us the headline news on Brexit.
    0:37:38 So the headline on Brexit is for a variety of reasons, and many of them not to do with
    0:37:41 economics, although it was sold as an economic, you know, win.
    0:37:49 But a lot of people, you know, because of reasons of identity and others, voted in 2018, if I’ll
    0:37:50 get my dates right, 2016, I guess.
    0:37:51 No.
    0:37:54 For the UK to leave the European Union.
    0:37:59 And the UK was even more tightly bound in trade and economic relationships with the European
    0:38:04 Union than Canada is with the United States, including free movement of labor, easy movement
    0:38:08 of the capital, huge trade going both ways.
    0:38:10 And you never had to get your product.
    0:38:14 If your product met the product standard in the UK, you didn’t have to worry about it.
    0:38:15 You could sell to any country in Europe.
    0:38:21 And so the decision taken, as I say, for a variety of reasons, narrowly, but taken to leave
    0:38:22 the European Union.
    0:38:26 And I remember when it happened, in our view at the time, and remember, this was during
    0:38:31 a period where it was interest rates were at rock bottom, inflation was too low, people
    0:38:32 were worried about deflation, blah, blah.
    0:38:37 Our view was, okay, what’s going to happen is the economy is going to slow, unemployment’s
    0:38:41 going to go up, inflation’s going to go up, and we at the Bank of England are going to have
    0:38:43 to raise interest rates when this happens.
    0:38:45 And by the way, the currency will also go down.
    0:38:47 The currency went down by 20, 25%.
    0:38:50 It’s still on the floor relative to where it was.
    0:38:56 Still on the floor because you had a big negative trade shock, a big loss of wealth, basically,
    0:38:57 future wealth.
    0:38:58 And the currency market priced it first.
    0:39:02 And exactly what we expected to happen, happened.
    0:39:06 I mean, it happened to happen roughly at the same time as COVID was finishing.
    0:39:12 But you had a big, again, I’m relying on your audience, a big negative supply shock to the
    0:39:18 economy because you ripped up trading relationships and the productive capacity went down relative to
    0:39:19 where demand was.
    0:39:21 So that was inflationary.
    0:39:26 And a combination of that meant UK rates are higher and it’s got a bigger inflation problem
    0:39:28 it has had than other economies.
    0:39:33 When you look at what’s happening in the US, the friction put into its trading relationships
    0:39:35 is going to cause the same thing.
    0:39:39 It is going to slow the rate of growth of that economy.
    0:39:41 It is going to affect the dollar.
    0:39:44 It has affected the dollar negatively, as we’ve seen.
    0:39:46 It’s going to push up prices on the margin.
    0:39:52 And so slower economy, higher inflation, higher interest rates, all things being equal.
    0:39:57 Now, there’s a big caveat with what I did, or there’s a qualifier is a better way to put
    0:39:57 it.
    0:40:02 The UK was a much more open economy, much more dependent on Europe.
    0:40:05 The US is more of a closed economy.
    0:40:08 It depends on the world, but it is, it’s different orders of magnitude.
    0:40:10 So it’s same direction, different orders of magnitude.
    0:40:15 So there’s, I think there are a lot of, a lot of parallels here, and I guess maybe the
    0:40:19 other parallel, if I can add one more, which remains to be seen.
    0:40:25 But the UK, I would say, and you’ll get, I’ll get hate mail from UK, some UK listeners, but
    0:40:31 I would say based on the polling, it’s pretty well understood that the economic impact of Brexit
    0:40:32 has been negative in the UK.
    0:40:36 Let’s say two thirds of the people now understand that.
    0:40:41 But the path back to being closer to Europe is very difficult politically.
    0:40:43 It’s hard to build, rebuild that consensus.
    0:40:44 They move very slowly.
    0:40:50 And you think about the situation in the world right now for the UK, boy, there’s a lot of
    0:40:55 logic being closer to Europe from a trade perspective.
    0:41:00 And even from a security perspective, they built this sort of what’s called a coalition
    0:41:05 of the willing with respect to Ukraine, because the UK, the US is pulling back from support
    0:41:05 for Ukraine.
    0:41:10 By the way, Canada has stepped up and is part of that largely European coalition of the willing
    0:41:11 alongside Australia.
    0:41:14 So there’s a logic to going back to that.
    0:41:16 But it’s hard to go back once you’ve broken up these relationships.
    0:41:22 And, you know, so the next six, 12 months, in my judgment, are going to be quite important
    0:41:25 for the United States and for the global trading system.
    0:41:32 Because the question is, OK, we understand that there is a big change, a big break with the
    0:41:32 old system.
    0:41:34 But how much of a break is it going to be?
    0:41:41 And is there going to be a relatively open trading system for, I’m using quotations here
    0:41:44 for those listening, like-minded countries, broadly like-minded countries?
    0:41:49 You know, I think of the G7 as being pretty like-minded countries, not surprisingly.
    0:41:53 You know, we value liberty, free speech, open markets in general.
    0:41:57 So are we going to have a relatively open system amongst ourselves?
    0:42:01 Or is it only going to be with a few countries?
    0:42:02 Or is it going to be with no countries?
    0:42:04 I mean, that’s kind of what to play for here.
    0:42:10 And, but the system won’t, it won’t revert to what it was previously.
    0:42:18 When we’re talking about these tariffs, there’s a general sense that, or at least a talk track
    0:42:24 from the Trump administration that the U.S. has been taken advantage of by its trading partners,
    0:42:29 including Canada, that they’ve just got the better end of the deal and that tariffs will
    0:42:34 help restore some sort of parity or equity in the relationship and respond to that.
    0:42:38 Well, I mean, we don’t, obviously we don’t see it.
    0:42:45 We don’t see it in the following respects, because really, again, the way the Trump administration
    0:42:49 has defined being, quote, taken advantage of is, do you run a trade deficit?
    0:42:53 And we can argue about that definition.
    0:42:58 I wouldn’t, if I lead on my economic training and my experience, I would say, well, that isn’t
    0:43:01 being taken advantage of, it’s mutual exchange.
    0:43:04 But the U.S. runs a surplus with us.
    0:43:06 The U.S. sells more to us.
    0:43:09 If anyone’s being taken advantage of, we’re being taken advantage of, right?
    0:43:11 Because, I mean, by that definition.
    0:43:17 And the only place where they run a deficit is, yes, we do ship oil to the United States.
    0:43:22 Now, we happen to ship oil to the United States at a big discount to global prices.
    0:43:30 So we’re being taken advantage of, again, on that definition, on the goods trade side.
    0:43:33 And we’re getting taken advantage because we’re selling oil at below good prices.
    0:43:35 So we, you know, we want our money back.
    0:43:36 No, we don’t.
    0:43:39 We still see the broader benefits of the relationship.
    0:43:44 And, you know, I don’t think that, I’ll go back to the auto sector.
    0:43:51 It’s not going to feel taken advantage of, as if these tariffs stay in place.
    0:43:56 And, you know, as you say, you got to check your phone every once in a while just to see
    0:43:57 where things stand.
    0:44:02 There’s a possible exemption on the auto parts side that’s coming in in the United States,
    0:44:07 which we would have said right, well, we did say right from the start would have to happen
    0:44:10 because the whole system will grind to a halt without it.
    0:44:15 So some of the mutual advantages will become more, are becoming more apparent.
    0:44:19 And hopefully the U.S. administration can continue to be nimble.
    0:44:25 My understanding is that you ship us cheap energy or cheap oil.
    0:44:27 You’re obviously a very resource abundant nation.
    0:44:32 We apply our IP and refining capability and then we sell it at three times the cost.
    0:44:34 It sounds like it’s been pretty mutually beneficial.
    0:44:36 Yeah, no, that’s absolutely right.
    0:44:39 How do you see this playing out?
    0:44:45 If you were tempted to speculate what the relationship is around global trade and tariffs
    0:44:49 on a macro level and then specifically with Canada and the U.S.,
    0:44:55 when you try to plan an economy similar to the way the CEO tries to plan a business,
    0:44:58 what are you expecting?
    0:44:59 You have to do scenario planning.
    0:45:00 Nobody knows.
    0:45:03 But what do you think are the most likely scenarios for how this plays out?
    0:45:09 Because I mean this sincerely, Prime Minister, we’re all befuddled by this.
    0:45:14 The majority of people who understand economics are having a difficult time seeing how this
    0:45:16 is a big win for the U.S.
    0:45:20 We’re just, we’re having a difficult time understanding how we win here.
    0:45:26 Maybe more people come to the, they claim there’s 75 nations lining up to cut deals with them.
    0:45:31 Is that the sense you get, that nations are lining up to cut a deal with us right now?
    0:45:39 Well, the short answer, I, I, I don’t know the, I don’t know is on that second question.
    0:45:42 There’s a few things that happen here.
    0:45:48 One is that there’s a risk premium in U.S. assets that wasn’t there before.
    0:45:51 And the question is, how big is that risk premium going to sell?
    0:45:52 Where is it going to sell?
    0:46:00 And, and that in part is going to depend on how coherent the new system is, you know,
    0:46:07 and, and is there, does the U.S. credibly commit to a new system or a series of deals?
    0:46:12 Remember, we’re, you know, we have a, we have a trading deal with U.S. that was signed by the
    0:46:17 current president, um, and, uh, and which, which isn’t being, you know, observed.
    0:46:20 So, so I think that’s one thing is there’s a risk premium on U.S. assets.
    0:46:25 And if there’s a risk premium on U.S. assets, then the cost of all other assets around the world
    0:46:26 is greater, right?
    0:46:30 Like since we’re still priced off of, uh, priced off of U.S. treasuries, for example.
    0:46:31 So that’s one thing.
    0:46:37 I think second is, um, I do believe that there are a series of like-minded countries.
    0:46:42 We very much like the U.S. to be part of that group, but like-minded countries who will develop
    0:46:45 deeper trading and security relationships as a consequence of this.
    0:46:47 Uh, it’s the world of second best.
    0:46:51 It’s not what we would all want, but it’s the logical thing to do.
    0:46:57 Third thing that’s going to happen is that, um, there is going to be much greater focus.
    0:47:01 And I know this for a fact, and well, this will be a fact if, if, if, uh, my party is
    0:47:06 successful in the elections, uh, a much greater focus on, uh, domestic drivers of demand.
    0:47:10 So building at home, building big infrastructure, building millions of houses, building, you know,
    0:47:16 building out our own economies, um, more, more, uh, domestic procurement, right?
    0:47:22 In a world where we’ve got excess steel and aluminum capacity, which we will, uh, if the
    0:47:25 U.S. doesn’t change on trade, well, guess who’s steel and aluminum we’re going to buy?
    0:47:31 Um, uh, for a variety of things, uh, guess what defense procurement we’re going to do?
    0:47:38 Uh, you know, right now we spend about 75% of our defense dollars go to the United States.
    0:47:45 That, you know, doesn’t make a lot of sense, uh, if we settle out in a, in a more, um,
    0:47:48 arm’s length relationship with the U S and that’s true.
    0:47:50 If it’s true for us, it’s true for Europe.
    0:47:51 It’s true for the UK.
    0:47:58 Um, and so we’ll all move more domestic and more with each other and the degree to which
    0:47:59 that happens.
    0:48:01 So this is a world just to be clear.
    0:48:05 And you, uh, I think you intuitively understand what you get this from the start.
    0:48:08 We’ve got a world where we have higher risk premia, right?
    0:48:10 It’s cost of capital is more expensive.
    0:48:14 And we’ve got a world where people are doing second best things.
    0:48:15 Countries are doing second best things.
    0:48:19 So it’s a world that’s more expensive and it’s more, it’s not our target.
    0:48:24 To use a fancy word, like it’s not totally in and of yourself, but it’s, you’re putting
    0:48:28 a much greater emphasis on, uh, taking care of yourself.
    0:48:33 Um, uh, we’ll do that and we’ll do it with like-minded countries and, uh, uh, and move
    0:48:34 forward.
    0:48:39 The surveys I’ve read said that two thirds of Americans still think of Canada as an ally.
    0:48:42 We’re sort of like, oh, you know, Trump, let boys will be boys.
    0:48:48 We still love Canadians, but two thirds plus of Canadians no longer see the U S as an ally.
    0:48:54 I mean, quite frankly, it feels like Canadians are just pissed off that they feel the term
    0:49:00 used was betrayed and that even if we’re, even if we’re able to establish, go back to
    0:49:05 normal, hasn’t the knife, you know, isn’t it the knife gets pulled halfway out of the back,
    0:49:07 but this injury takes years or decades to fail.
    0:49:15 I mean, what is the vibe, if you will, around how Canadians feel about Americans and how long
    0:49:18 do you think it gets, it takes us to repair this relationship?
    0:49:20 I certainly recognize those figures.
    0:49:29 Um, there is a feeling here that, uh, that the, it’s the actions of the U S there’s, there’s
    0:49:29 several things.
    0:49:31 One is the trade actions.
    0:49:35 Secondly, was this long period and I’m, I’m not going to repeat the phrases that were used,
    0:49:41 but these threats to our sovereignty are very sovereignty, which, you know, kind of unique.
    0:49:45 There’s us in Denmark who’ve suffered actual threats to sovereignty.
    0:49:50 I guess Panama, we roll ourselves in with that and that’s, you know, on your hierarchy of
    0:49:54 betrayals, threatening somebody else’s sovereignty is pretty much the top.
    0:49:57 Uh, I guess the top is acting on that threat.
    0:50:00 Um, so, uh, uh, so that’s all mixed in.
    0:50:08 Um, I think secondly, what has been striking has been the relatively muted response in the
    0:50:13 broader U S to these steps, right?
    0:50:19 Um, you know, the CEO class, if I can put it that way, the other major influencers, stakeholders
    0:50:24 and the, uh, that’s changing a bit, but it was pretty quiet for a long period of time.
    0:50:30 Um, so, you know, and when you look at that from this side of the border, you think, oh, okay,
    0:50:34 well, this is more deeply held or the friendship is less firmly rooted.
    0:50:36 It’s like any relationship.
    0:50:42 I think if it’s, uh, when you have a, a loss of trust, it, you know, it can be repaired to
    0:50:43 a degree.
    0:50:47 It takes a period of time and it takes action to replace that, you know, it’s more than
    0:50:48 more than fine words.
    0:50:56 I, I think that, uh, that action can start with, uh, in May, the prime minister of Canada
    0:50:58 at that point, we’ll meet with, uh, with president Trump.
    0:51:01 Uh, I want to be the prime minister of Canada at that point.
    0:51:04 I’m working hard to get there, but, uh, uh, uh, and they’ll sit down and say,
    0:51:10 start a process of, um, redefining that relationship and, and, and building trust out from that.
    0:51:12 We’ll be right back.
    0:51:27 It really seems like tariffs are about to make just about everything more expensive.
    0:51:32 And so this week on the Vergecast, we’re trying to figure out not only which gadgets do you need
    0:51:38 to buy right now before they get more expensive, but also what can tech companies big and small
    0:51:44 do to cope in complicated, uncertain times when it seems like nothing makes sense and the money
    0:51:48 changes every day and all they want to do is ship gadgets.
    0:51:54 The future of gadgets in a tariff world all this week on the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts.
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    0:53:34 By the way, I absolutely love Vivian Tu.
    0:53:35 I think she does a great job.
    0:53:46 We’re back with more from Prime Minister Carney.
    0:54:00 So just as a means of not or taking advantage of the fact that we have you on this podcast, we have real problems in the U.S. around income inequality.
    0:54:06 For the first time in our nation’s history, a 30-year-old isn’t doing as well as her parents was at 30.
    0:54:09 Tremendous polarization politically.
    0:54:10 People just don’t like each other.
    0:54:13 I mean, I would argue that comparatively the nation’s actually done quite well.
    0:54:17 But what ails us, the call is coming from inside of the house.
    0:54:19 We don’t like each other within America.
    0:54:25 You’re asked to be a journeyman and come be Treasury Secretary or head of the Fed.
    0:54:30 What policy plans do you think the U.S. should adopt?
    0:54:37 And then I want to use that as a jumping off point to what are the biggest economic challenges the candidate faces and how you plan to address them.
    0:54:43 Well, I think the, okay, you go to the heart of, I mean, that’s a big, big question.
    0:54:45 I guess the way I look at it as follows.
    0:54:48 I mean, I’m going to come at this from an odd angle maybe.
    0:54:58 But when I look at what’s going to drive economic prosperity, productivity, growth for the next 25 years, what are the big drivers of that?
    0:55:00 I’d put down three big drivers.
    0:55:01 AI, no insight.
    0:55:03 I’d put it at the top of the list.
    0:55:07 Probably the life sciences revolution where I’m less expert.
    0:55:10 And I would put carbon.
    0:55:12 I would put drive towards lower carbon.
    0:55:19 The U.S. has taken a step back from that for the moment, but it’s going to come back because the underlying issues around are there.
    0:55:28 And so, okay, if those are some of the big things that are going to drive economies going forward, and the U.S. can have mastery in all of those.
    0:55:40 But the question is how broadly that’s going to be shared within the U.S. across various social strata and how ready people are going to be to take advantage of it, right?
    0:55:50 So, you know, is AI going to be, you know, purely an elite or largely an elite operation, or is AI going to be used to train a lot of people to do a number of things?
    0:56:10 I mean, I know that sounds very Panglossian or, you know, techno-optimistic, but it is, the question is whether it’s a deliberate policy that’s steered by the federal and local governments in a way that are going to ensure that, you know, in Appalachia, you’re learning skills that are consistent with that.
    0:56:18 And or, you know, the energy transition over time, but it’s not a term that’s used anymore in the U.S. as far as I can tell, but it will come back.
    0:56:24 If I can flip it back, Scott, to us, we have the same set of issues or set of drivers.
    0:56:25 Those are global drivers.
    0:56:29 On top of that, we have a series of things such as I mentioned critical minerals.
    0:56:30 We have large conventional energy.
    0:56:36 So how are we balancing all that in a way that builds the jobs as we move out?
    0:56:41 One of the things, I’ll say two other things which are related but distinct.
    0:56:44 We got to sort out our housing issues in this country.
    0:56:53 We have a massive economic, we have absolute social need, but we have a massive economic opportunity to create a new industry, new way of building houses and at scale and driving that.
    0:56:55 And we’re going to, we’re going to shoot on that.
    0:57:09 And I guess the last thing I’d say, which candidly worries me a bit about the United States and gives me greater comfort or strength in Canada is a word I’m not sure you’d like to use anymore, which is around diversity.
    0:57:15 We have a huge, huge opportunity here because we’re one of the most diverse countries in the world.
    0:57:20 We value diversity, we get a very strong sense of equal rights in a broad sense.
    0:57:22 We can be a magnet for talent.
    0:57:33 And as the U.S. is pushing out brains, if you will, and, you know, it’s quite a hostile environment in the academic world in the United States now, we can take advantage of that.
    0:57:40 And then that cascades down through, you know, the AI revolution, life sciences, other elements.
    0:57:43 Broadcasters, creative class, Scott, come up here.
    0:57:46 Whether it’s now, it’s now above zero.
    0:57:49 Creative has done a lot of work in that sentence, prime minister.
    0:57:54 So the, look, you have a housing crisis, we have a housing crisis.
    0:57:58 And it seems like leaders have agreed that it’s a crisis for the last 10 years.
    0:58:04 Now, I read that housing in Vancouver is a percentage of the average salary is the third most expensive city in the world.
    0:58:08 And that so much of it is in zoning and nimbyism.
    0:58:15 And you’re, the previous prime minister, you know, they wanted to address the housing crisis.
    0:58:17 What’s the friction point?
    0:58:18 Is it capital?
    0:58:18 Is it labor?
    0:58:19 Is it zoning?
    0:58:25 What is different about what you’re proposing that is going to register any more progress than previous administrations?
    0:58:28 So it’s, it’s all of the above.
    0:58:31 And so you attack it in a, in a comprehensive way.
    0:58:37 I’m going to simplify in terms of restriction zoning development charges.
    0:58:39 And we work at multiple levels of government.
    0:58:41 It’s part of the reason why those costs are there.
    0:58:42 They come from the municipal side.
    0:58:50 And so in effect, we put up a bunch of money, just put up a bunch of money to commit, to cut the development charges in half.
    0:58:50 Okay.
    0:59:00 So that, and that’s subject to a series of other restrictions being removed, but we will, we at the federal level, we’ll, we’ll pay for that to, to be cut in half.
    0:59:11 The second thing, uh, I mean, we believe very strongly that, uh, I mean, productivity for, in the Canadian housing, uh, sector construction sector basically is flatlined for the last 20 years.
    0:59:11 Okay.
    0:59:13 We’re still building houses like we did before.
    0:59:20 And given the scale of what we need to do, you know, we got to move much more rapidly, particularly in urban density and other things.
    0:59:27 So, you know, modular prefab housing, um, mass timber, other innovations that are there, they exist.
    0:59:33 And so one of the things we’re going to do to kickstart that industry, and this is Canada’s, not the United States.
    0:59:35 We have a different attitude toward these things.
    0:59:39 We have a problem with, uh, deeply affordable housing, right?
    0:59:42 Social, certain countries you might call social housing.
    0:59:47 Uh, we’ve, we, we just have not built that for decades, basically in effect.
    0:59:49 And so we need to, we need to catch up.
    0:59:56 And so what we’re doing, part of what we’re doing is we’re going to build huge amount at that level.
    1:00:13 And set the, the, the, the, the specs, if you will, for that we’re going to build and we’re going to build by, you know, on our balance sheet or as a developer, and we’ll set the specs for that, which drive the industry upstream in prefab, mass timber, et cetera, which gets the economies to scale there.
    1:00:19 Um, but by and large, we will rely on private sector build, uh, we’ll make a bunch of land available.
    1:00:28 We’ll make cheap capital, 25 billion, uh, for developers in this case, which is bigger money up here, cut those development charges in half, drive that.
    1:00:33 And then we will give tax breaks to people buying their first time home.
    1:00:40 So basically they’re getting 5% off their first, first time home, which, you know, from a down payment perspective starts, starts to add up.
    1:00:45 So attacking it both on the supply demand side, the way we look at it is.
    1:00:55 This is generational, like the scale of the problem is generational such that we are building out a huge pipeline of apprentices in the skilled trades.
    1:01:03 And one of the core messages I give virtually every time I speak, so I’m going to do it now is this is going to be a great time for a career in the skilled trades in Canada.
    1:01:06 Cause we’re going to build for the next 25, 30 years.
    1:01:09 Like we are going to add, if we get this right.
    1:01:13 And we intend to three to four points of GDP of investment.
    1:01:15 That’s a huge number, right?
    1:01:15 It’s possible.
    1:01:19 We used to invest at that scale relative to GDP in the early seventies.
    1:01:20 We can do it again.
    1:01:21 You know, we can finance it.
    1:01:23 Um, we got all the pension funds.
    1:01:27 We’ve got lots of money to finance it, but we need to, we need to kickstart it.
    1:01:30 And of course it’s not, it’s housing is we start with housing.
    1:01:34 It’s not just housing, it’s energy, it’s other, other elements, but that’s what we’re going to do.
    1:01:39 So we want to get young people into the skilled trades at scale.
    1:01:41 We’re going to pay for all their apprenticeships.
    1:01:43 We’re going to work with the unions to pull them through.
    1:01:48 We’re adding a bunch of capacity at post-secondary education so they can get these trades at a scale.
    1:01:53 So we’re getting the hundreds of thousands, which again, in the U S doesn’t seem like a lot, but in Canada, these are big numbers.
    1:01:56 Let’s talk a little bit about climate and energy.
    1:02:06 You’ve evolved, uh, from being a climate finance advocate to scrapping the consumer carbon tax and calling for Canada to be an energy superpower.
    1:02:08 How have your views changed on this?
    1:02:12 Uh, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say my views have changed, uh, to be honest.
    1:02:15 So, I mean, it’s, uh, it’s very results oriented.
    1:02:22 So the consumer carbon tax, uh, in Canada was responsible for about 6% of our emissions reductions.
    1:02:26 So 94% of the work was being done elsewhere.
    1:02:33 Now it sent a signal to households, but it, it, it just wasn’t that important.
    1:02:41 Um, but it was quite divisive because people, you know, viewed it as a tax and they, they saw the tax with the tax.
    1:02:44 They didn’t all give credit to the rebates that they were getting.
    1:02:48 And so it politically, it was unhelpful, was undercutting the overall message.
    1:02:52 So we got rid of that, um, uh, a few months ago.
    1:02:54 Um, it was the first thing I did actually, when I got into office.
    1:03:02 Um, but what we, what we are doing is making sure that the carbon market for large emitters works well.
    1:03:07 So, and that, um, and, and we’re large emitters work well.
    1:03:21 And as a consequence of that, we’re getting them in effect to pay people for this, what will happen if we’re elected to pay people for, you know, driving EVs, retrofitting their homes, uh, uh, the other, you know, climate smart choices.
    1:03:31 And then on top of that, there is a big element, uh, uh, big IRA type element to our climate strategy, investment tax and credits and others.
    1:03:41 So we’re looking basically and having, you know, reasonable success with this, where we’re putting out, you know, a dollar federally, and we’re getting four to $5 of private investment on top of that.
    1:03:56 Um, and you know, what’s really relevant to us, aside from caring about the climate and people up here do care about the climate as a whole, um, is that we think that this is going to be a fundamental driver of competitiveness.
    1:04:02 And if you look at who we’re going to be trading with more over time, Europeans, the Brits, others, guess what?
    1:04:03 They care about this.
    1:04:08 In fact, as you know, with carbon border adjustment mechanism is coming into, in Europe.
    1:04:15 And so we take a view that, okay, we’ve got to do this medium long-term for competitiveness because that’s where the world’s going.
    1:04:18 Secondly, the Europeans and others are going to want us to do this.
    1:04:21 Thirdly, actually, we’ve got a lot of the technology.
    1:04:25 So part of being an energy superpower is around small modular reactors.
    1:04:29 Um, I mean, we’re a big hydropower, uh, we’re decent on hydrogen.
    1:04:33 We could get better carbon capture and storage, all these things we can do.
    1:04:36 And I guess the last point, which goes back to the U.S.
    1:04:40 Is, you know, right now, and I’m going to grossly generalize, the U.S. doesn’t care about climate.
    1:04:42 Six months ago, it cared about climate.
    1:04:43 Guess what?
    1:04:45 You’re going to care about climate again down the road.
    1:04:54 And when you care about climate down the road again, we want to be in a position where we’re much more competitive, uh, and maybe have leapfrogged a number of U.S. companies.
    1:04:57 So I just want to do a quick lightning round.
    1:04:59 Advice to your 25-year-old self.
    1:05:03 You got 10, 15 seconds with your 25-year-old self.
    1:05:04 What would you say to yourself?
    1:05:06 Uh, you know, relax.
    1:05:09 It’s, uh, and, and, and stay focused on what you like.
    1:05:13 I mean, I’ve probably spent more time doing things I didn’t really love than, uh, I should have.
    1:05:19 Uh, you got a chance to go back and meet with someone who you’ve lost or who’s no longer around.
    1:05:21 Who would that person be, and what would you say to them?
    1:05:26 Well, I think with, I, you know, be my, I’d be my father.
    1:05:26 I’d say I love him.
    1:05:33 You’re at the end of your life, not going to walk on the beach again, not going to get to hang out with your wife, your kids.
    1:05:35 What does success look like for you?
    1:05:38 When you, when you look back, what is the box you want to have checked?
    1:05:49 I think strongly the answer to that is that you’re, you’re proud of the values of, of your children and people who’ve worked with you.
    1:06:01 I mean, I think that is the only real legacy, the extent to which you have influenced how others treat others in the world and, and, and how they, how they, how they react in the world.
    1:06:06 That’s, I wrote a book and that was the, uh, that was the conclusion of that.
    1:06:12 Mark Carney is Canada’s 24th prime minister and leader of the liberal party sworn in this March.
    1:06:21 Uh, as an economist, uh, prime minister Carney steered the bank of Canada through the financial crisis and later became the first non-Brit to run the bank of England.
    1:06:27 Between those roles, she served as UN special envoy to climate action and finance and as vice chair of Brookfield asset management.
    1:06:33 I’ve trust a lot of Canadians are listening and I feel comfortable speaking for a lot of people.
    1:06:38 And that is Americans understand the largest undefended border in the world is the U S Canadian border.
    1:06:39 That’s for a reason.
    1:06:49 I love that question that, uh, uh, Warren Buffett’s friend was a, uh, Holocaust survivor said the way I judge my friends is I asked one question who would hide me.
    1:06:53 A lot of Americans remember that Canadians hit Americans in the Iran hostage crisis.
    1:07:04 And I hope that, uh, your listeners and your voters recognize there is a huge swath of Americans that think of you, not as, not as even as a friend, but as siblings.
    1:07:15 And that we, uh, we hope and are committed to maintaining what is arguably the, one of the strongest alliances in history that I don’t want to say, don’t take what’s going on seriously.
    1:07:22 You have to, but there are a lot of Americans down here who are, who are brothers and sisters in arms in Canada.
    1:07:25 You, we really do think of you as, uh, as a sibling.
    1:07:28 Thank you, Scott.
    1:07:45 Algebra of happiness, porn.
    1:07:50 Uh, it’s something there’s not a lot of research on because no one wants to be known as the porn professor.
    1:07:56 I spoke with Dr. Anna Lemke, I believe on this podcast, and it strikes me.
    1:07:59 I’m meeting more and more people who have are struggling with an addiction to porn.
    1:08:05 And what I would suggest is to tell people not to engage in porn is a little bit unrealistic.
    1:08:10 That’s like telling someone to go stop drinking, which my doctor told me when I had high blood pressure a few months ago.
    1:08:11 And I’m like, yeah, that’s going to happen.
    1:08:12 I’ll reduce my drinking.
    1:08:13 Why don’t we stop there?
    1:08:18 Anyways, it’s not about my high blood pressure, which by the way is under, under control now.
    1:08:19 That’s good news.
    1:08:23 Hard to imagine me with high blood pressure at the age of 40, 60.
    1:08:32 Anyways, I think sexual desire and that want and that hunger, if channeled correctly, can make you a much better man.
    1:08:35 And the last thing you want to do is reduce that fire and that hunger.
    1:08:42 And that is wanting to mate, wanting to be attractive such that you can find a partner to have a relationship and ultimately possibly have sex with.
    1:08:50 I think if channeled correctly, and it usually, in my opinion, usually is channeled correctly, can make you want to be and become a better man.
    1:08:58 And so anything that dampens those fires, whether it’s additional porn consumption or depression, that’s just a bad idea.
    1:09:08 Because life is about taking risks, and because women pay a much greater downside or have much greater downside risk from sex, specifically pregnancy, than men.
    1:09:11 I mean, they’re in it for 25 years if they get pregnant.
    1:09:13 We’re in it for at least seven seconds, right?
    1:09:16 And I’m not suggesting anyone engage in male abandonment.
    1:09:18 But the downside risks for women are just much greater.
    1:09:22 So as a result, they have a much finer filter, meaning they are choosier than men.
    1:09:22 Okay, fine.
    1:09:25 But there’s an upside to that.
    1:09:31 And that is if you want to have a relationship with somebody, it forces you or inspires you to be a better man.
    1:09:33 Maybe you work out a little bit more.
    1:09:34 Maybe you have a plan.
    1:09:37 You articulate a plan around economic viability.
    1:09:39 Maybe you learn how to open.
    1:09:41 You learn how to take risks.
    1:09:48 The most frightening piece of data I’ve seen recently is that 51% of men, 18 to 24, have never asked a woman out in person.
    1:09:52 That is so upsetting for me.
    1:10:01 I think a lot of the skills you develop and the characteristics you develop around trying to find a mate make you a better man across a number of dimensions.
    1:10:03 You develop a sense of resilience.
    1:10:06 If you want to ask a lot of women out, get used to rejection.
    1:10:12 And if you want to be successful in the world of mating, much less professionally, get used to rejection.
    1:10:13 That is a skill.
    1:10:15 Learn how to talk to strangers.
    1:10:16 Learn how to open.
    1:10:17 Learn how to smell nice.
    1:10:19 Learn how to not have bad breath.
    1:10:22 Learn how to groom yourself.
    1:10:27 Be able to articulate a plan for why you might someday be able to take care of children.
    1:10:31 Show that you’re disciplined and you work out, which means you show up.
    1:10:33 These things make you a better man.
    1:10:42 And anything that reduces the hunger, the desire, the drive, the fire to make you a better man, you want to modulate it.
    1:10:49 In sum, I’m not going to tell you not to consume porn, but my brothers, you want that fire to stay alive.
    1:10:57 I think a big part of the reason I graduated from college, quite frankly, is I used to go on campus every day because I wanted to see my friends at North Campus UCLA.
    1:11:03 And also there was a non-zero probability that I might meet someone that ultimately I might have a romantic relationship with.
    1:11:04 And that was very motivating.
    1:11:10 And had I had on-demand porn on my phone and my computer, I don’t know if I would have gone on campus as much.
    1:11:18 And with a 2.27 GPA, it wouldn’t have taken a lot of less campus presence for me not to have graduated from college.
    1:11:19 So what’s the bottom line?
    1:11:21 Porn, okay.
    1:11:23 But modulate.
    1:11:30 That fire, that desire can be channeled and should be channeled into making you a better man.
    1:11:36 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.
    1:11:38 Our intern is Dan Chalon.
    1:11:40 Drew Burrows is our technical director.
    1:11:43 Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
    1:11:48 We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn.
    1:11:54 And please follow our Prop G Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

    Mark Carney, Canada’s 24th Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal Party, joins Scott to discuss the country’s economic outlook, how Canada fits into a shifting global order, and whether the U.S.-Canada relationship can be repaired amid rising trade tensions.

    Follow Mark Carney, @MarkJCarney.

    Algebra of Happiness: thoughts on porn.

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  • Essentials: How to Build Endurance

    中文
    Tiếng Việt
    中文
    Tiếng Việt
    AI transcript
    0:00:02 Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,
    0:00:04 where we revisit past episodes
    0:00:07 for the most potent and actionable science-based tools
    0:00:09 for mental health, physical health, and performance.
    0:00:12 I’m Andrew Huberman,
    0:00:15 and I’m a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
    0:00:16 at Stanford School of Medicine.
    0:00:19 This podcast is separate from my teaching
    0:00:20 and research roles at Stanford.
    0:00:23 It is, however, part of my desire and effort
    0:00:25 to bring zero cost to consumer information
    0:00:27 about science and science-related tools
    0:00:28 to the general public.
    0:00:30 Today, I’d like to talk about endurance
    0:00:32 and how to build endurance
    0:00:35 and how to use endurance
    0:00:37 for the health of your entire body.
    0:00:40 Endurance, as the name suggests,
    0:00:44 is our ability to engage in continuous bouts of exercise
    0:00:49 or continuous movement or continuous effort of any kind.
    0:00:53 It is clear that cardiovascular exercise,
    0:00:56 exercise where you’re getting your heart rate up
    0:00:57 continuously for a period of time,
    0:00:59 is vital for tapping into
    0:01:03 and enhancing various aspects of our biology
    0:01:05 in the body and in the brain
    0:01:09 such that our brain can perform work
    0:01:11 for longer periods of time,
    0:01:13 focused work, learning, et cetera.
    0:01:15 The key thing to understand
    0:01:17 about energy production in the body
    0:01:19 is this thing that we call ATP.
    0:01:25 ATP is required for anything that requires energy,
    0:01:27 for anything that you do that requires effort.
    0:01:33 So our muscles and our neurons use different fuel sources
    0:01:34 to generate ATP.
    0:01:40 The ones that are used first for short bouts of intense activity
    0:01:41 are things like phosphocreatine.
    0:01:43 If you’ve only heard about creatine as a supplement,
    0:01:46 well, phosphocreatine actually exists on our muscles,
    0:01:47 and that’s why people take creatine.
    0:01:50 You can load your muscles with more creatine.
    0:01:54 Phosphocreatine is great for short, intense bouts of effort.
    0:01:57 Then you start to tap into things like glucose,
    0:01:59 which is literally just carbohydrate.
    0:02:01 It’s just sugar that’s in your blood.
    0:02:03 And then if you keep pushing,
    0:02:06 you start to tap into other fuel sources like glycogen.
    0:02:09 And you have fat stored in adipose tissue.
    0:02:12 Even if you have very, very low body fat percentage,
    0:02:17 you can extract lipids, fatty acids from that body fat.
    0:02:18 It’s like a storage pack.
    0:02:21 It is a storage pack for energy that can be converted to ATP.
    0:02:23 Without going into any more detail,
    0:02:26 when I say today energy, or I say ATP,
    0:02:30 just remember that regardless of your diet,
    0:02:32 regardless of your nutritional plan,
    0:02:36 your body has the capacity to use creatine,
    0:02:38 glucose, glycogen, lipids,
    0:02:41 and if you’re ketogenic, ketones,
    0:02:44 in order to generate fuel, energy.
    0:02:48 Now, the other crucial point is that
    0:02:51 in order to complete that process of taking these fuels
    0:02:53 and converting them into energy,
    0:02:57 most of the time, you need oxygen.
    0:03:00 You need air, basically, in your system.
    0:03:03 Now, it’s not actual air, you need oxygen molecules
    0:03:06 in your system, comes in through your mouth
    0:03:07 and your nose, goes to your lungs
    0:03:09 and distributes via the bloodstream.
    0:03:12 Oxygen is not a fuel,
    0:03:16 but like a fire that has no oxygen,
    0:03:18 you can’t actually burn the logs.
    0:03:22 But when you blow a lot of oxygen onto a fire,
    0:03:26 basically onto logs with a flame there,
    0:03:28 then basically it will take fire,
    0:03:30 it will burn, okay?
    0:03:33 Oxygen allows you to burn fuel.
    0:03:36 So today we are going to ask the critical questions.
    0:03:40 What allows us to perform?
    0:03:43 What allows us to continue effort for long periods of time?
    0:03:46 Well, we think of things like willpower,
    0:03:47 but what’s willpower?
    0:03:48 Willpower is neurons.
    0:03:50 It’s neurons in our brain.
    0:03:52 We have this thing called the central governor,
    0:03:54 which decides whether or not we should
    0:03:55 or could continue
    0:03:57 or whether or not we should stop,
    0:03:59 whether or not we should quit.
    0:04:01 So we have to ask the question,
    0:04:04 what is the limiting factor on performance?
    0:04:06 What prevents us from enduring?
    0:04:08 What prevents us from moving forward?
    0:04:10 What are the factors that say,
    0:04:11 you know what?
    0:04:11 No more.
    0:04:13 I’m not going to continue this run.
    0:04:16 There are five main categories of things
    0:04:18 that allow us to engage in effort.
    0:04:21 Now, I don’t want to completely write off things
    0:04:22 like the immune system
    0:04:24 and other systems of the body,
    0:04:27 but nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs
    0:04:30 are the five that I want to focus on today
    0:04:33 because that’s where most of the data are.
    0:04:36 Let’s talk about neurons and how they work, okay?
    0:04:37 But I want to tell you about an experiment
    0:04:40 that’s going to make it very clear
    0:04:43 why quitting is a mental thing,
    0:04:44 not a physical thing.
    0:04:46 So why do we quit?
    0:04:49 Well, an experiment was done a couple of years ago
    0:04:51 and was published in the journal Cell,
    0:04:53 Cell Press Journal, excellent journal,
    0:04:56 showing that there’s a class of neurons
    0:05:00 in our brainstem, in the back of our brain,
    0:05:05 that if they shut off, we quit.
    0:05:10 Now, these neurons release epinephrine.
    0:05:12 Epinephrine is adrenaline.
    0:05:15 And anytime we are engaged in effort of any kind,
    0:05:16 we are releasing epinephrine.
    0:05:18 Anytime we’re awake, really,
    0:05:20 we are releasing epinephrine into our brain.
    0:05:25 In fact, this little group of neurons
    0:05:26 in the back of our brain,
    0:05:28 it’s called the locus coeruleus, if you like,
    0:05:31 is churning out epinephrine all the time.
    0:05:32 But if something stresses us out,
    0:05:36 it churns out more and then it acts as kind of an alertness signal
    0:05:37 for the whole brain.
    0:05:38 We also, of course,
    0:05:41 have adrenaline epinephrine released in our body,
    0:05:42 which makes our body ready for things.
    0:05:45 So think about epinephrine as a readiness signal.
    0:05:47 And when we are engaged in effort,
    0:05:50 this readiness signal is being churned into our brain.
    0:05:52 When we’re relaxed and we’re falling asleep,
    0:05:53 epinephrine levels are low.
    0:05:59 So our desire to continue or put differently,
    0:06:03 our willingness to continue and our desire to quit
    0:06:06 is mediated by events between our two ears.
    0:06:09 Now that doesn’t mean that the body’s not involved,
    0:06:11 but it means that neurons are critically important.
    0:06:13 So we have two categories of neurons that are important.
    0:06:16 The ones in our head that tell us get up
    0:06:17 and go out and take that run.
    0:06:20 And the ones that allow us,
    0:06:22 encourage us to continue that run.
    0:06:24 And we have neurons that shut things off that say no more.
    0:06:28 And we of course have the neurons that connect to our muscles
    0:06:29 and control our muscles.
    0:06:33 But the reason we quit is rarely because our body quits,
    0:06:34 our mind quits.
    0:06:36 So when people say,
    0:06:37 is it,
    0:06:38 I hear that,
    0:06:38 you know,
    0:06:40 sports or effort or fighting,
    0:06:43 or it’s 90% mental,
    0:06:44 10% physical.
    0:06:46 That whole discussion about how much is mental,
    0:06:48 how much is physical is absolutely silly.
    0:06:52 It’s 100% nervous system.
    0:06:53 It’s neurons.
    0:06:54 Okay.
    0:06:56 So when people say mental or physical,
    0:06:59 understand it’s 100% neural.
    0:06:59 Now,
    0:07:03 what do nerves need in order to continue to fire?
    0:07:05 What do you need in order to get neurons to say,
    0:07:07 I will persist?
    0:07:07 Well,
    0:07:08 they need glucose.
    0:07:12 Unless you’re keto and ketogenic adapted,
    0:07:15 you need carbohydrate is glucose.
    0:07:17 That’s what neurons run on.
    0:07:20 And you need electrolytes.
    0:07:24 Neurons have what’s called a sodium potassium pump,
    0:07:24 blah,
    0:07:24 blah,
    0:07:24 blah.
    0:07:27 They generate electricity in order to get nerves,
    0:07:29 nerve cells to fire,
    0:07:30 to contract muscle,
    0:07:30 to say,
    0:07:31 I’m going to continue.
    0:07:37 You need sufficient sodium salt because the action potential,
    0:07:42 the actual firing of neurons is driven by sodium entering the cell,
    0:07:43 rushing into the cell.
    0:07:47 And then there’s a removal of potassium.
    0:07:54 And then there’s a kind of resetting of those levels by something called the sodium potassium pump and the sodium potassium pump and sodium and action potentials.
    0:07:56 Even if you don’t know anything about that,
    0:07:58 even if you don’t know anything about that is ATP dependent,
    0:08:00 it requires energy.
    0:08:03 So you need energy in order to get neurons to fire.
    0:08:06 And it is pH dependent.
    0:08:12 It depends on the conditions or the environment within the brain being of a certain pH or acidity.
    0:08:16 pH is about how acid or how basic the environment is.
    0:08:18 Nerves need salt.
    0:08:19 They need potassium.
    0:08:21 And it turns out they need magnesium.
    0:08:25 And you need glucose and carbohydrates in order to power those neurons,
    0:08:27 unless you are running on ketones.
    0:08:28 Muscle.
    0:08:34 Muscle is going to engage and generate energy first by using this phosphocreatine system.
    0:08:37 High bouts of effort,
    0:08:38 really intense effort,
    0:08:40 short-lived seconds to minutes,
    0:08:43 but probably more like seconds is going to be this phosphocreatine,
    0:08:45 literally a fuel source in the muscle that you’re going to burn,
    0:08:47 just like you would logs on a fire.
    0:08:49 And glycogen,
    0:08:51 which is stored carbohydrate in the muscle,
    0:08:54 they’re converting that into ATP in order to generate that energy.
    0:08:58 And then there’s stuff in our blood that’s available as an energy source.
    0:08:59 And in blood,
    0:09:00 we’ve got glucose.
    0:09:02 So literally blood sugar that’s floating around.
    0:09:04 So let’s say you have fasted for three days,
    0:09:06 your blood glucose is going to be very low.
    0:09:08 So that’s not going to be a great fuel source,
    0:09:12 but you will start to liberate fats from your adipose tissue,
    0:09:13 from your fat.
    0:09:18 Fatty acids will start to mobilize into the bloodstream and you can burn those for energy.
    0:09:19 Now,
    0:09:24 there are some other factors that are important and those are the heart,
    0:09:25 which is going to move blood.
    0:09:29 So the more that the heart can move blood and oxygen,
    0:09:30 well,
    0:09:37 the more fuel that’s going to be available for you to engage in muscular effort and thinking effort.
    0:09:41 And as I’ve mentioned oxygen a few times,
    0:09:43 it should be obvious then that the lungs are very important.
    0:09:53 You need to bring oxygen in and distribute it to all these tissues because oxygen is critical for the conversion of carbohydrates and the conversion of fats.
    0:10:04 So when we ask the question,
    0:10:06 or even moderately long bouts of effort,
    0:10:16 we need to ask which of those things, nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs is limiting or put differently, we ask what should we be doing with our neurons?
    0:10:18 what should we be doing with our muscles?
    0:10:18 What should we be doing with our muscles?
    0:10:19 What should we be doing with our blood?
    0:10:20 What should we be doing with our heart?
    0:10:22 And what should we be doing with our lungs?
    0:10:31 that’s going to allow us to build endurance for mental and physical work and to be able to go longer,
    0:10:32 further,
    0:10:33 with more intensity.
    0:10:37 I’d like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
    0:10:42 AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.
    0:10:48 I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.
    0:10:54 I started taking it and I still take it every single day because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals,
    0:10:59 and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.
    0:11:05 Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion,
    0:11:10 but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators,
    0:11:12 things like dopamine and serotonin.
    0:11:15 In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function.
    0:11:21 Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake,
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    0:11:33 So, by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health,
    0:11:41 and in turn, brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body.
    0:11:46 So, anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be,
    0:11:54 I always say AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance.
    0:11:59 If you’d like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
    0:12:08 For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
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    0:12:33 So, let’s talk about the four kinds of endurance, and how to achieve those.
    0:12:36 So, first of all, we have muscular endurance.
    0:12:56 Muscular endurance is the ability for our muscles to perform work over time, and our failure to continue to be able to perform that work is going to be due to muscular fatigue, not to cardiovascular fatigue.
    0:13:06 So, not because we’re breathing too hard, or we can’t get enough blood to the muscles, or because we quit mentally, but because the muscles themselves give out.
    0:13:07 Okay?
    0:13:28 One good example of this would be if you had to pick up a stone in the yard, and that stone is not extremely heavy for you, and you needed to do that anywhere from 50 to 100 times, and you were picking it up and putting it down and picking it up and putting it down and picking up and putting it down.
    0:13:31 At some point, at some point, your muscles will fatigue.
    0:13:41 Muscular endurance is going to be something that you can perform for anywhere from 12 to 25, or even up to 100 repetitions.
    0:13:44 So, a good example is push-ups.
    0:13:51 It’s actually no coincidence that a lot of military boot camp style training is not done with weights.
    0:13:54 It’s done with things like push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, and running.
    0:14:01 Because what they’re really building is muscular endurance, the ability to perform work repeatedly over time for a given set of muscles and neurons.
    0:14:14 So, a really good muscular endurance training protocol, according to the scientific literature, would be three to five sets of anywhere from 12 to 100 repetitions.
    0:14:16 That’s a huge range.
    0:14:23 Now, 12 to 25 repetitions is going to be more reasonable for most people.
    0:14:29 And the rest periods are going to be anywhere from 30 to 180 seconds of rest.
    0:14:32 So, anywhere from half a minute to three minutes of rest.
    0:14:40 The one critical feature of building muscular endurance is that it has no major eccentric loading component.
    0:14:50 I haven’t talked much about eccentric and concentric loading, but concentric loading is when you are shortening the muscle, typically, or lifting a weight.
    0:14:56 And eccentric movements are when you are lengthening a muscle, typically, or lowering a weight.
    0:15:02 So, if you do a pull-up and you get your chin over the bar or a chin-up, that’s the concentric portion of the effort.
    0:15:05 And then, as you lower yourself, that’s the eccentric portion.
    0:15:14 Eccentric portion of resistance training of any kind, whether or not it’s for endurance or for strength, is one of the major causes of soreness.
    0:15:23 Some people will be more susceptible to this than others, but it does create more damage in muscle fibers.
    0:15:31 Muscular endurance and building muscular endurance should not include any movements that include major eccentric loads.
    0:15:37 So, if you’re going to do push-ups, it doesn’t mean that you want to drop, you know, smash your chest into the floor.
    0:15:41 And by the way, your chest should touch the ground on every push-up.
    0:15:42 That’s a real push-up.
    0:15:45 It’s about pushing down until your chest touched the floor and straightening out.
    0:15:46 That’s a proper push-up.
    0:15:49 And a pull-up is where you pull your chin above the bar.
    0:15:54 Neither of those should include a slow eccentric or lowering component.
    0:16:06 If you are using those to train muscular endurance, the three to five sets of 12 to 25 and maybe even up to a hundred repetitions with 30 to 180 seconds of rest in between.
    0:16:13 But if you want to build muscular endurance, you want to make your muscles able to do more work for longer.
    0:16:22 It’s going to be this three to five sets of 12 to 100 reps, 30 to 180 seconds of mainly concentric movement, okay?
    0:16:27 Not a slow lowering phase or a heavy lowering phase.
    0:16:30 So, that might be kettlebell swings and things of that sort.
    0:16:34 Isometrics, as I mentioned, things like plank and wall sits will work.
    0:16:41 Now, what’s interesting about this is that it doesn’t seem at all like what people normally think of as endurance.
    0:16:55 And yet, it’s been shown in nice quality peer-reviewed studies that muscular endurance can improve our ability to engage in long bouts of what we call long duration, low intensity endurance work.
    0:17:06 So, this can support long runs, it can support long swims, and it can build also, it can build postural strength and endurance simultaneously.
    0:17:10 So, now let’s talk about the science briefly of why this works.
    0:17:16 Well, that takes us back to this issue of fuel utilization and what fails.
    0:17:25 So, if we were to say, okay, let’s say you do a plank and you’re planking for, you know, maybe you’re able to plank for a minute or two minutes or three minutes.
    0:17:27 At some point, you will fail.
    0:17:30 You’re not going to fail because the heart gives out.
    0:17:35 You’re not going to fail because you can’t get enough oxygen because you can breathe while you’re doing that.
    0:17:57 You’re going to fail because of local muscular failure, which means that as you do, if you choose to do this protocol of three to five sets, et cetera, et cetera, to build muscular endurance, mainly what you are going to be building is you’re going to be building the ability of your mitochondria to use oxygen to generate energy locally.
    0:18:03 And that it’s something called mitochondrial respiration, respiration because of the involvement of oxygen.
    0:18:15 And it’s also going to be increasing the extent to which the neurons control the muscles and provide a stimulus for the muscles to contract.
    0:18:19 But this is independent of power and strength, okay?
    0:18:33 So even though the low sets like three to five sets and the fact that you’re doing repetitions and you’re going to failure, even though it seems to resemble power and strength and hypertrophy type training, it is distinctly different.
    0:18:36 It’s not going to generate strength, hypertrophy and power.
    0:18:44 It’s going to mainly create this ability to endure, to continually contract muscles or repeatedly contract muscles, okay?
    0:18:58 Continually, if you’re using isometric holds, repeatedly, excuse me, if you’re using repetition type exercise where there’s a contraction and an extension of the muscle, essentially concentric and an eccentric portion.
    0:19:08 But remember that you want the eccentric portion to be light and relatively fast, not so fast that you injure yourself, but certainly not deliberately slowed down.
    0:19:12 I’d like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Element.
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    0:22:05 So now let’s talk about the other extreme of endurance, which is long duration endurance.
    0:22:10 This is the type that people typically think about when they think about endurance.
    0:22:15 You’re talking about a long run, a long swim, a long bike ride.
    0:22:16 Well, how long?
    0:22:25 Well, anywhere from 12 minutes to several hours, or maybe even an entire day, maybe eight or nine hours of hiking or running or biking.
    0:22:30 Some people are actually doing those kinds of really long events, marathons, for instance.
    0:22:52 You’re getting into regular repeated effort, and your ability to continue that effort is going to be dependent mainly on the efficiency of the movement, on your ability to strike a balance between the movement itself, the generation of the muscular movements that are required, and fuel utilization across the different sources.
    0:22:57 Fuel utilization across the different sources of nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs.
    0:23:00 So let’s ask the question, why would you fail on a long run?
    0:23:01 Why would you quit?
    0:23:13 Well, your mind is going to use more or less energy depending on how much willpower, how much of a fight you have to get into with yourself in order to generate the effort.
    0:23:21 I really want to underscore this willpower in part is the ability to devote resources to things.
    0:23:25 And part of that is making decisions to just either do it or not do it.
    0:23:27 I’m not of the just do it mindset.
    0:23:32 I think there’s a right time and a place to train, but I also think that it is not good.
    0:23:48 In other words, it utilizes excessive resources to churn over decisions excessively, and you probably burn as much cognitive energy deciding about whether or not to do a given training or not as you do in the actual training.
    0:24:00 When you go out for a run that’s 30 minutes, you are building the capacity to repeat that performance the next time while being more efficient, actually burning less fuel.
    0:24:09 And that might seem a little bit counterintuitive, but every time you do that run, what you’re doing is you’re building up mitochondrial density.
    0:24:14 It’s not so much about mitochondrial oxidation and respiration.
    0:24:16 You’re building up mitochondrial density.
    0:24:22 You’re actually increasing the amount of ATP that you can create for a given bout of effort.
    0:24:24 You’re becoming more efficient.
    0:24:25 Okay.
    0:24:29 You’re burning less fuel overall doing the same thing.
    0:24:34 That’s really what these long, slow distance or long bouts of effort are really all about.
    0:24:36 Now, why do this long duration effort?
    0:24:37 Why would you want to do it?
    0:24:38 Why is it good for you?
    0:24:45 Well, it does something very important, which is that it builds the capillary beds within muscles.
    0:24:51 So these are tiny little avenues like little tiny streams and estuaries between the bigger arteries and veins.
    0:24:53 You can literally build new capillaries.
    0:24:54 build new capillaries.
    0:24:57 You can create new little streams within your muscles.
    0:25:07 And the type of long duration effort that I was talking about before to 12 minutes or more of steady effort is very useful for doing that.
    0:25:15 And is very useful for increasing the mitochondria, the energy producing elements of the cells, the actual muscle cells.
    0:25:22 And the reason is when blood arrives to muscles, it has oxygen.
    0:25:24 The muscles are going to use some of that oxygen.
    0:25:29 And then some of the deoxygenated blood is going to be sent back to the heart and to the lungs.
    0:25:37 Now, the more capillaries that you build into those muscles, the more oxygen available to those muscles.
    0:25:52 So this long duration work, unlike muscular endurance like planks and everything that we were talking about before, is really about building the capillary systems and the mitochondria, the energy utilization systems within the muscles themselves.
    0:26:05 And then there are two kinds in between that in recent years have gotten a lot of attention and excitement, sometimes called high intensity interval training.
    0:26:19 So let’s talk about anaerobic endurance first.
    0:26:26 Anaerobic endurance from a protocol perspective is going to be three to 12 sets.
    0:26:27 Okay.
    0:26:35 And these are going to be performed at whatever speed allows you to complete the work in good, safe form.
    0:26:36 Okay.
    0:26:37 So it could be fast.
    0:26:38 Could be slow.
    0:26:43 As the work continues, your repetitions may slow down or it may speed up.
    0:26:44 Chances are it’s going to slow down.
    0:26:46 So what does this work?
    0:26:47 What are these sets look like?
    0:26:50 Remember long, slow distance is one set.
    0:26:52 Muscular endurance is three to five sets.
    0:26:55 High intensity anaerobic endurance is going to be somewhere between.
    0:26:58 three and 12 sets.
    0:27:07 And it’s going to have a ratio of work to rest of anywhere from three to one to one to five.
    0:27:08 Okay.
    0:27:12 So what would a three to one ratio set look like?
    0:27:20 Well, it’s going to be 30 seconds of hard pedaling on the bike, for instance, or running or on the rower.
    0:27:21 These are just examples.
    0:27:22 It could be in the pool swimming.
    0:27:26 It could be any number of things or air squats or, you know, or weighted squats.
    0:27:32 If you will, provided you can manage that 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:27:34 That’s a very brief rest.
    0:27:40 So three to one is just a good example would be 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:27:44 The opposite extreme on that ratio would be one to five.
    0:27:46 So 20 seconds on a hundred seconds off.
    0:27:50 So you do the work for 20 seconds, then you rest a hundred seconds.
    0:27:53 So let’s just take a look at the three to one ratio.
    0:28:00 So in the three to one ratio, if you’re going to do 30 seconds of hard pedaling on a bike followed by 10 seconds.
    0:28:02 So maybe one of these, what they call assault bikes.
    0:28:04 And then you stop for 10 seconds and then repeat.
    0:28:12 Chances are you will be able to do one, two, three, four, maybe even as many as 12 sets.
    0:28:18 If you’re really in good condition that you’ll be able to do all those because pedaling on the bike doesn’t require a ton of skill.
    0:28:27 And if you do it incorrectly, if your elbow flares out a little bit or something, it’s very unlikely that you’ll get injured unless it’s really extreme.
    0:28:28 Okay.
    0:28:31 But the same movement done for instance, with kettlebells.
    0:28:33 So 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:28:36 The first set will probably be in good form.
    0:28:41 The second one will be in pretty good form, but let’s say you’re getting to the fifth and sixth set and you’re going 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:28:45 Chances are the quality of your repetitions will degrade significantly.
    0:28:49 And you increase the probability that you’re going to get injured.
    0:28:51 If quality of form is important.
    0:28:54 So maybe this is using weights.
    0:28:55 Maybe you’re doing squats.
    0:28:58 So you’re going to do 20 seconds on and a hundred seconds of rest.
    0:29:10 What you’ll find is that the longer rest, even though it’s 20 seconds of intense effort, followed by a longer rest of about a hundred seconds will allow you to perform more quality repetitions safely over time.
    0:29:15 So it might be three sets of 20 seconds of hard effort, followed by a hundred seconds rest.
    0:29:20 Then you repeat 20 seconds of hard effort, a hundred seconds rest, 20 seconds of effort, a hundred seconds rest.
    0:29:22 And you might do that twice a week.
    0:29:26 In doing that, you will build up what we call anaerobic endurance.
    0:29:35 Anaerobic endurance is going to be taking your system into greater than 100% of your VO2 max.
    0:29:44 It’s going to be taking your heart rate up very high, and it’s going to maximize your oxygen utilization systems.
    0:29:54 That is going to have effects that are going to lead to fatigue at some point in the workout, and that fatigue will trigger an adaptation.
    0:29:57 So let’s ask what adaptation it’s triggering.
    0:30:09 Well, it’s triggering both mitochondrial respiration, the ability of your mitochondria to generate more energy by using more oxygen, because you’re bringing so much, you’re maxing out.
    0:30:15 Literally, you’re getting above your VO2 max, you’re hitting that threshold of how much oxygen you can use in your system.
    0:30:22 One of the adaptations will be that your mitochondria will shift such that they can use more oxygen.
    0:30:34 And you’re going to also increase the capillary beds, but not as much as you’re going to be able to increase the amount of neuron engagement of muscle.
    0:30:45 So normally, when we start to hit fatigue, when we’re exhausted, when we’re breathing really hard, because the systems of the body are linked, and there’s a mental component to this as well, a kind of motivational component.
    0:30:57 After that third or fourth or sixth set of, you know, 20 seconds on 100 seconds off, or if you’re at the other extreme 30 seconds on and 10 seconds off, there’s going to be a component of you want to stop.
    0:31:13 And by pushing through and repeating another set safely, of course, what you’re doing is you’re training the neurons to be able to access more energy, literally convert that into ATP, and for the muscles, therefore, to access more energy and ATP.
    0:31:18 And the adaptation is in the mitochondria’s ability to use oxygen.
    0:31:23 And this has tremendous carryover effects for other types of exercise.
    0:31:32 This can be beneficial in competitive sports or team sports where there’s a sprinting component, where the field opens up and you need to dribble the ball down the field, for instance, and shoot on goal.
    0:31:46 Or where you’re playing tennis, and it’s a long rally, and then all of a sudden, somebody really starts, you know, putting you back on your heels, and you have to really make the maximum amount of effort to run to the net and to get the ball across that things of that sort.
    0:31:47 Okay.
    0:31:52 There are a variety of places where there’s carryover from this type of training, but it does support endurance.
    0:31:54 It’s about muscle endurance.
    0:31:59 It’s about these muscles, ability to generate a lot of force in the short term, but repeatedly.
    0:32:02 Okay, so that’s the way to conceptualize this.
    0:32:04 And it is different than maximum power.
    0:32:09 Even though it feels like maximum effort, it is not the same as building power and speed into muscles.
    0:32:11 Those are distinctly different protocols.
    0:32:20 So the key elements, again, are that you’re bringing your breathing and your oxygen utilization way up above your max.
    0:32:28 It’s not quite hitting failure, but you’re really pushing the system to the point where you are not ready to do another set.
    0:32:30 And yet you begin another set.
    0:32:32 You’re not necessarily psychologically ready.
    0:32:37 I want to make sure I touch on the fourth protocol, which is high intensity aerobic conditioning.
    0:32:40 So HIIT has these two forms, anaerobic and aerobic.
    0:32:43 And you just heard about anaerobic.
    0:32:48 High intensity aerobic conditioning also involves about three to 12 sets.
    0:32:58 A one-to-one ratio is powerful for building, on average, most of the energy systems involving.
    0:33:02 Remember, we had these nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs.
    0:33:07 A one-to-one ratio might be you run a mile and however long that takes.
    0:33:10 You might run first miles, let’s say seven minutes.
    0:33:11 Then you rest for seven minutes.
    0:33:12 Then you run a mile again.
    0:33:15 And it might take eight minutes and you rest for eight minutes.
    0:33:20 And you continue that for a total of four miles of work, four miles of running work, I should say.
    0:33:21 You can build this up.
    0:33:35 Many people find that using this type of training allows them to do things like go run half marathons and marathons, even though prior to the race date, they’ve never actually run a half marathon or marathon.
    0:33:38 Now that might seem incredible.
    0:33:53 It’s like, how could it be that running a mile on and then, and then resting for running a mile and then resting for an equivalent amount of time, running a mile, resting for equivalent amount of time for seven miles allows you to run continuously for 13 miles or for 26 miles.
    0:33:58 It improves ATP and mitochondrial function in muscle.
    0:34:04 It allows the blood to deliver more oxygen to the muscle and to your brain.
    0:34:08 And it allows your heart to deliver more oxygen overall.
    0:34:11 And it builds a tremendous lung capacity.
    0:34:12 So what would this look like?
    0:34:13 And when should you do this?
    0:34:22 Well, it’s really a question for these workouts of asking how much work can one do in eight to 12 minutes, right?
    0:34:23 And then rest and then repeat.
    0:34:26 How much work can you do for eight to 12 minutes, then rest and then repeat?
    0:34:28 And how many times should you do this?
    0:34:31 Well, this is the sort of thing, it’s pretty intense.
    0:34:37 And so you would probably only want to do this two, maybe three times a week if you’re not doing many other things.
    0:34:40 So we have four kinds of endurance, muscular endurance.
    0:34:41 We have long duration endurance.
    0:34:45 We have high intensity interval training of two kinds, anaerobic and aerobic.
    0:34:49 And this last type, the aerobic one works best.
    0:34:51 It seems if you kind of do this one-to-one ratio.
    0:34:53 So how would you use these and what are they actually doing?
    0:34:54 What are they actually doing?
    0:35:01 Let’s talk about the heart and the lungs and oxygen, because that’s something that we can all benefit from understanding.
    0:35:06 The brain and the heart are probably the two most important systems that you need to take care of in your life.
    0:35:15 Maintaining or enhancing a brain function and cardiovascular function, it’s absolutely clear are key for health and longevity in the short and long term.
    0:35:23 And the sorts of training I talked about today has been shown again and again and again to be very useful for enhancing the strength of the mind.
    0:35:28 Yes, I’ll talk about that as well as the health of the brain and the body.
    0:35:32 I’d like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
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    0:37:31 So let’s talk about the sorts of adaptations that are happening in your brain and body that are so beneficial in these different forms of training.
    0:37:50 If you are breathing hard and your heart is beating hard, so this would be certainly in the high-intensity anaerobic and aerobic conditioning, because you’re getting up near your VO2 max in high-intensity aerobic conditioning, and you’re exceeding your VO2 max in high-intensity anaerobic conditioning.
    0:37:59 What’s going to happen is, as of course your heart beats faster, your blood is going to be circulating faster in principle.
    0:38:02 Oxygen utilization in muscles is going to go up.
    0:38:19 And over time, not long, very quickly, what will happen when those capillary beds start to expand, in addition, because of the amount of blood that’s being returned to the heart, when you engage in these really intense bouts of effort,
    0:38:29 repeatedly, the amount of blood being returned to the heart actually causes an eccentric loading of one of the muscular walls of the heart.
    0:38:32 So your heart is muscle, it’s cardiac muscle.
    0:38:35 We have skeletal muscle attached to our bones, and we have cardiac muscle, which is our heart.
    0:38:54 When more blood is being returned to the heart because of the additional work that your muscles and nerves are doing, it actually has the effect of creating an eccentric loading, a kind of pushing of the wall, the left.
    0:39:01 I realize I’m not using the strict anatomy here, but I don’t want to get into all the features of the structural features of the heart.
    0:39:16 But the left ventricle essentially getting slammed back and then having to push back and a kind of eccentric loading of the cardiac muscle and the muscle thickens as more blood is returned to the heart.
    0:39:23 There’s an adaptation where the heart muscle actually gets stronger and therefore can pump more blood per stroke, per beat.
    0:39:38 And as it does that, it delivers, because blood contains glucose and oxygen and other things, it delivers more fuel to your muscles, which allows you to do yet more work per unit time.
    0:39:50 If you do this high intensity type training where your heart is beating very hard, so maybe the one-to-one ratio mile run repeats that I described a minute ago, pretty soon the stroke volume of your heart will really increase.
    0:39:55 And as a consequence, you can deliver more fuel to your muscles and to your brain.
    0:39:58 Your cognitive functioning will improve.
    0:40:07 This has been shown again and again because there’s an increase in vasculature, literally capillary beds within the brain, the hippocampus, areas that support memory, but also areas of the brain.
    0:40:13 But also areas of the brain that support respiration, that support focus, that support effort.
    0:40:18 Now, weight training does have some positive effects on brain function also.
    0:40:36 However, it’s very clear and you should now understand intuitively why the kind of standard strength and hypertrophy type workouts are not going to activate the blood oxygenation and the stroke volume increases for the heart that the sorts of training I’m talking about today will.
    0:40:39 It just doesn’t have the same positive effects.
    0:40:44 The other thing that’s really important to think about in terms of endurance type work is hydration.
    0:40:49 And I think hydration is important for all forms of physical work and exercise, not just endurance.
    0:40:56 Typically, we’re going to lose anywhere from one to five pounds of water per hour of exercise.
    0:40:57 And that’s going to vary tremendously.
    0:40:59 It’s going to vary on weather.
    0:41:06 It’s going to vary on intensity, probably more like five pounds if it’s hot day and you’re exercising very intensely.
    0:41:28 So if you think about your weight in pounds, once you lose about one to 4% of your body weight in water, you’re going to experience about a 20 to 30% reduction in work capacity in your ability to generate effort of any kind, strength, endurance, etc.
    0:41:33 You are also going to experience a significant drop in your ability to think and perform mental operations.
    0:41:35 So hydration is key.
    0:41:37 Potassium, sodium, and magnesium are really key.
    0:41:38 Yes, it’s true.
    0:41:42 You can die from drinking too much water in particular because it forces you.
    0:41:47 If you drink too much water, you’ll excrete too many electrolytes and your brain will shut off.
    0:41:50 You’ll actually, your heart will stop functioning properly.
    0:41:53 So you don’t want to over consume water to the extreme either.
    0:42:01 A simple formula, what I call the Galpin equation, which is your body weight in pounds divided by the number 30.
    0:42:06 And that is how many ounces you should drink for every 15 minutes of exercise.
    0:42:08 Now, if you are sweating a lot, you may need more.
    0:42:15 If you’re already very well hydrated, you may need less, but that’s a good rule of thumb to begin.
    0:42:20 And to start to understand the relationship between hydration and performance.
    0:42:22 We didn’t talk about supplements much today.
    0:42:26 In the previous episodes, I talked about the phosphocreatine system and supplementing with creatine.
    0:42:30 We talked about beta alanine for kind of moderate duration work.
    0:42:41 You know, really the only things that have been shown to really improve endurance work across the four varieties of endurance work I described today.
    0:42:44 They have essentially two forms.
    0:42:45 One are stimulants.
    0:42:49 So things like caffeine will definitely improve endurance work and power output.
    0:43:01 Certain forms of magnesium, in particular magnesium malate, M-A-L-A-T-E, have been shown to be useful for removing or reducing the amount of delayed onset muscle soreness.
    0:43:07 That form of magnesium is distinctly different than the sorts of magnesium that are good for getting us into sleep.
    0:43:09 Things like magnesium threonate and bi-glycinate.
    0:43:14 In general, we focused mainly today on behavioral tools.
    0:43:18 And I hope I was able to illustrate for you that endurance isn’t just one thing.
    0:43:23 It’s not just the ability to go for long bouts of exercise of different kinds.
    0:43:26 That there’s also this mental component because of the way that neurons work.
    0:43:40 And also that there are these different forms of endurance, of muscular endurance, that where you’re going to fail because of the muscles and muscle energy utilization and the nerves that innervate those muscles locally, not because of a failure to bring in oxygen or blood.
    0:43:50 Whereas long duration effort, it’s going to be more about, you know, being below your VO2 max and your ability to be efficient for long bouts of more than 12 minutes of exercise.
    0:43:54 One set, as they say, of 12 minutes to maybe several hours.
    0:44:00 High intensity training will tap into yet other fuel sources and mechanisms as we learned today.
    0:44:03 And last but not least, thank you for your interest in science.
    Chào mừng bạn đến với Huberman Lab Essentials, nơi chúng ta quay lại các tập trước để tìm hiểu những công cụ dựa trên khoa học mạnh mẽ và có thể thực hiện được nhất cho sức khỏe tâm thần, sức khỏe thể chất và hiệu suất. Tôi là Andrew Huberman, giáo sư sinh lý thần kinh và nhãn khoa tại Trường Y khoa Stanford. Podcast này tách biệt với vai trò giảng dạy và nghiên cứu của tôi tại Stanford. Tuy nhiên, đây là một phần trong khát vọng và nỗ lực của tôi nhằm cung cấp thông tin miễn phí cho người tiêu dùng về khoa học và các công cụ liên quan đến khoa học cho công chúng. Hôm nay, tôi muốn nói về sức bền, cách xây dựng sức bền và cách sử dụng sức bền cho sức khỏe của toàn bộ cơ thể bạn. Sức bền, như tên gọi đã gợi ý, là khả năng của chúng ta để tham gia vào các hoạt động thể chất liên tục hoặc chuyển động hoặc nỗ lực liên tục của bất kỳ loại nào. Rõ ràng là tập luyện thể dục tim mạch, đó là khi bạn làm tăng nhịp tim của mình liên tục trong một khoảng thời gian, là rất quan trọng để khai thác và nâng cao các khía cạnh khác nhau của sinh học trong cơ thể và trong não, để não chúng ta có thể thực hiện công việc trong thời gian dài hơn, công việc tập trung, học tập, v.v. Điều quan trọng cần hiểu về việc sản xuất năng lượng trong cơ thể là cái mà chúng ta gọi là ATP. ATP là cần thiết cho bất kỳ thứ gì đòi hỏi năng lượng, cho bất kỳ thứ gì mà bạn làm cần nỗ lực. Vì vậy, cơ bắp và tế bào thần kinh của chúng ta sử dụng các nguồn nhiên liệu khác nhau để tạo ra ATP. Các nguồn nhiên liệu được sử dụng đầu tiên cho các hoạt động ngắn nhưng cường độ cao là những thứ như phosphocreatine. Nếu bạn chỉ nghe nói về creatine như một loại thực phẩm bổ sung, thì phosphocreatine thực sự tồn tại trong các cơ bắp của chúng ta, và đó là lý do tại sao mọi người sử dụng creatine. Bạn có thể nạp thêm creatine vào cơ bắp của mình. Phosphocreatine rất tốt cho những nỗ lực ngắn nhưng cường độ cao. Sau đó, bạn sẽ bắt đầu tận dụng những thứ như glucose, mà thực chất chỉ là carbohydrate. Nó chỉ là đường trong máu của bạn. Và nếu bạn tiếp tục đẩy mạnh, bạn sẽ bắt đầu khai thác các nguồn nhiên liệu khác như glycogen. Và bạn có chất béo được dự trữ trong mô mỡ. Ngay cả khi bạn có tỷ lệ phần trăm mỡ cơ thể rất thấp, bạn vẫn có thể chiết xuất lipid, axit béo từ chất béo đó. Nó giống như một gói lưu trữ. Nó là một gói lưu trữ năng lượng có thể được chuyển đổi thành ATP. Mà không đi sâu vào chi tiết hơn, khi tôi nói hôm nay về năng lượng, hoặc nói về ATP, hãy nhớ rằng bất kể chế độ ăn uống của bạn là gì, bất kể kế hoạch dinh dưỡng của bạn ra sao, cơ thể bạn có khả năng sử dụng creatine, glucose, glycogen, lipid, và nếu bạn ăn ketogenic, các thể ketone, để tạo ra năng lượng. Bây giờ, điểm quan trọng khác là để hoàn thành quá trình lấy những nhiên liệu này và chuyển đổi chúng thành năng lượng, hầu hết thời gian, bạn cần oxy. Bạn cần không khí, về cơ bản là, trong hệ thống của bạn. Bây giờ, đó không phải là không khí thực sự, bạn cần các phân tử oxy trong hệ thống của mình, chúng vào qua miệng và mũi của bạn, đi đến phổi và phân phối qua dòng máu. Oxy không phải là nhiên liệu, nhưng giống như một ngọn lửa không có oxy, bạn thực sự không thể đốt cháy các khúc gỗ. Nhưng khi bạn thổi nhiều oxy vào một ngọn lửa, về cơ bản vào những khúc gỗ có ngọn lửa, thì nó sẽ bắt lửa, nó sẽ cháy, được chứ? Oxy cho phép bạn đốt nhiên liệu. Vậy hôm nay chúng ta sẽ đặt ra những câu hỏi quan trọng. Điều gì cho phép chúng ta thực hiện? Điều gì cho phép chúng ta duy trì nỗ lực trong thời gian dài? Chà, chúng ta nghĩ đến những thứ như sức mạnh ý chí, nhưng sức mạnh ý chí là gì? Sức mạnh ý chí là các tế bào thần kinh. Đó là các tế bào thần kinh trong não của chúng ta. Chúng ta có một thứ gọi là bộ điều khiển trung tâm, quyết định liệu chúng ta nên hoặc có thể tiếp tục hay không hoặc liệu chúng ta nên dừng lại hay không, có nên bỏ cuộc hay không. Vì vậy, chúng ta phải đặt ra câu hỏi, yếu tố nào là yếu tố hạn chế trong hiệu suất? Điều gì ngăn cản chúng ta chịu đựng? Điều gì ngăn cản chúng ta tiến bước? Những yếu tố nào nói rằng, bạn biết đấy? Không còn nữa. Tôi sẽ không tiếp tục chạy nữa. Có năm loại chính những thứ cho phép chúng ta tham gia vào nỗ lực. Bây giờ, tôi không muốn hoàn toàn loại bỏ những thứ như hệ miễn dịch và các hệ thống khác trong cơ thể, nhưng dây thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, tim và phổi là năm thứ mà tôi muốn tập trung hôm nay vì đó là nơi mà phần lớn dữ liệu có. Hãy nói về các tế bào thần kinh và cách chúng hoạt động, được chứ? Nhưng tôi muốn kể cho bạn về một thí nghiệm sẽ làm rõ lý do tại sao việc bỏ cuộc là một điều tâm lý, không phải thể chất. Vậy tại sao chúng ta lại bỏ cuộc? Chà, một thí nghiệm đã được thực hiện cách đây một vài năm và được công bố trong tạp chí Cell, Tạp chí Cell Press, một tạp chí xuất sắc, cho thấy rằng có một nhóm tế bào thần kinh trong thân não của chúng ta, ở phía sau não của chúng ta, nếu chúng tắt, chúng ta sẽ bỏ cuộc. Bây giờ, những tế bào thần kinh này giải phóng epinephrine. Epinephrine là adrenaline. Và bất cứ khi nào chúng ta tham gia vào nỗ lực của bất kỳ loại nào, chúng ta đang giải phóng epinephrine. Bất cứ khi nào chúng ta tỉnh táo, thực sự, chúng ta đang giải phóng epinephrine vào não của chúng ta. Trên thực tế, nhóm nhỏ các tế bào thần kinh này ở phía sau não của chúng ta, được gọi là locus coeruleus, nếu bạn thích, luôn luôn sản xuất epinephrine. Nhưng nếu có điều gì đó khiến chúng ta căng thẳng, nó sẽ sản xuất nhiều hơn và sau đó hoạt động như một tín hiệu cảnh báo cho toàn bộ não. Chúng ta cũng có epinephrine adrenaline được giải phóng trong cơ thể, điều này làm cho cơ thể chúng ta sẵn sàng cho mọi thứ. Vì vậy, hãy coi epinephrine như một tín hiệu sẵn sàng. Và khi chúng ta tham gia vào nỗ lực, tín hiệu sẵn sàng này đang được sản xuất vào trong não của chúng ta. Khi chúng ta thư giãn và sắp ngủ, mức độ epinephrine thấp. Vì vậy, mong muốn tiếp tục của chúng ta hoặc nói cách khác, sự sẵn lòng tiếp tục của chúng ta và mong muốn bỏ cuộc của chúng ta được điều chỉnh bởi những sự kiện giữa hai tai của chúng ta. Bây giờ điều đó không có nghĩa là cơ thể không liên quan, nhưng điều đó có nghĩa là các tế bào thần kinh là rất quan trọng. Vì vậy, chúng ta có hai loại tế bào thần kinh quan trọng. Những cái trong đầu của chúng ta, nói với chúng ta hãy đứng dậy và ra ngoài và chạy. Và những cái cho phép chúng ta, khuyến khích chúng ta tiếp tục cuộc chạy đó. Và chúng ta có các tế bào thần kinh ngăn mọi thứ lại, nói rằng không còn nữa.
    Chúng ta tất nhiên có các nơ-ron kết nối với cơ bắp và điều khiển cơ bắp của chúng ta. Nhưng lý do mà chúng ta bỏ cuộc hiếm khi vì cơ thể chúng ta bỏ cuộc, mà là vì tâm trí chúng ta bỏ cuộc. Khi mọi người nói rằng thể thao hay nỗ lực hay chiến đấu, hoặc rằng 90% là tinh thần, 10% là thể chất, thì toàn bộ cuộc thảo luận về bao nhiêu là tinh thần, bao nhiêu là thể chất là hoàn toàn ngớ ngẩn. Tất cả đều phụ thuộc vào hệ thần kinh. Đó là các nơ-ron. Được rồi. Vì vậy, khi mọi người nói về tinh thần hay thể chất, hãy hiểu rằng nó hoàn toàn phụ thuộc vào nơ-ron. Bây giờ, các dây thần kinh cần gì để tiếp tục hoạt động? Bạn cần gì để khiến các nơ-ron nói rằng, tôi sẽ kiên trì? Chúng cần glucose. Trừ khi bạn đang theo chế độ ăn keto và thích nghi với nó, bạn cần carbohydrate tức là glucose. Đó là nguồn năng lượng cho các nơ-ron. Và bạn cần điện giải. Các nơ-ron có một cái gọi là bơm natri-kali, vân vân. Chúng tạo ra điện để làm cho các dây thần kinh, các tế bào thần kinh hoạt động, co cơ, để nói rằng, tôi sẽ tiếp tục. Bạn cần đủ natri vì điện thế hoạt động, hoạt động thực sự của các nơ-ron phụ thuộc vào natri vào tế bào, lao vào tế bào. Sau đó, có sự loại bỏ kali. Và sau đó có một kiểu thiết lập lại các mức độ đó bằng một cái gọi là bơm natri-kali và bơm natri-kali cũng như các điện thế hành động. Ngay cả khi bạn không biết gì về điều đó, ngay cả khi bạn không biết rằng nó phụ thuộc vào ATP, nó cần năng lượng. Vì vậy, bạn cần năng lượng để khiến các nơ-ron hoạt động. Và nó phụ thuộc vào pH. Nó phụ thuộc vào điều kiện hoặc môi trường bên trong não có một pH hoặc độ axit nhất định. pH liên quan đến độ axit hoặc độ bazơ của môi trường. Các dây thần kinh cần muối. Chúng cần kali. Và hóa ra chúng cần cả magiê. Và bạn cần glucose và carbohydrate để cung cấp năng lượng cho các nơ-ron đó, trừ khi bạn đang chạy bằng xeton. Cơ bắp. Cơ bắp sẽ tham gia vào việc tạo ra năng lượng đầu tiên bằng cách sử dụng hệ thống phosphocreatine này. Những nỗ lực lớn, thực sự cường độ cao, kéo dài từ vài giây đến vài phút, nhưng có lẽ chủ yếu là vài giây sẽ sử dụng phosphocreatine, thực sự là một nguồn nhiên liệu trong cơ bắp mà bạn sẽ đốt cháy, giống như bạn đốt củi trong lửa. Và glycogen, là carbohydrate được lưu trữ trong cơ bắp, đang chuyển hóa nó thành ATP để tạo ra năng lượng đó. Và sau đó có những thứ trong máu của chúng ta mà có sẵn như một nguồn năng lượng. Trong máu, chúng ta có glucose. Thực sự là đường huyết đang lưu thông. Giả sử bạn đã nhịn ăn trong ba ngày, đường huyết của bạn sẽ rất thấp. Vì vậy, đó không phải là một nguồn nhiên liệu tuyệt vời, nhưng bạn sẽ bắt đầu giải phóng chất béo từ mô mỡ của bạn, từ mỡ. Axit béo sẽ bắt đầu được di chuyển vào máu và bạn có thể đốt cháy chúng để tạo ra năng lượng. Bây giờ, có một số yếu tố khác cũng quan trọng và đó là trái tim, cái sẽ di chuyển máu. Vì vậy, càng nhiều máu và oxy mà trái tim có thể di chuyển, thì càng nhiều nhiên liệu sẽ có sẵn để bạn tham gia vào nỗ lực cơ bắp và nỗ lực tư duy. Và như tôi đã đề cập đến oxy vài lần, thì nên rõ ràng rằng phổi rất quan trọng. Bạn cần đưa oxy vào và phân phối cho tất cả các mô này bởi vì oxy là rất quan trọng cho việc chuyển đổi carbohydrate và chuyển đổi chất béo. Vì vậy, khi chúng ta đặt câu hỏi, hoặc ngay cả những nỗ lực kéo dài trung bình, chúng ta cần hỏi yếu tố nào trong đó, dây thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, trái tim và phổi là giới hạn hoặc nói cách khác, chúng ta hỏi chúng ta nên làm gì với các nơ-ron? Chúng ta nên làm gì với cơ bắp của chúng ta? Chúng ta nên làm gì với máu của chúng ta? Chúng ta nên làm gì với trái tim của chúng ta? Và chúng ta nên làm gì với phổi của chúng ta? Điều đó sẽ cho phép chúng ta xây dựng sức bền cho công việc tinh thần và thể chất và có thể kéo dài lâu hơn, xa hơn, với nhiều cường độ hơn. Tôi muốn tạm nghỉ một chút và công nhận nhà tài trợ của chúng tôi, AG1. AG1 là một loại đồ uống vitamin, khoáng chất, probiotic cũng chứa các adaptogen. Tôi đã bắt đầu uống AG1 từ năm 2012, lâu trước khi tôi biết podcast là gì. Tôi đã bắt đầu uống nó và tôi vẫn uống nó mỗi ngày vì nó đảm bảo rằng tôi đáp ứng đủ lượng vitamin và khoáng chất hàng ngày, và nó giúp tôi chắc chắn rằng tôi nhận đủ prebiotics và probiotics để hỗ trợ sức khỏe ruột của mình. Trong suốt 10 năm qua, sức khỏe ruột đã trở thành điều mà chúng ta nhận ra là quan trọng không chỉ cho sức khỏe tiêu hóa, mà còn cho hệ miễn dịch của chúng ta và cho việc sản xuất các chất dẫn truyền thần kinh và điều hòa thần kinh, những thứ như dopamine và serotonin. Nói cách khác, sức khỏe ruột rất quan trọng cho chức năng não bộ đúng cách. Bây giờ, tất nhiên, tôi cố gắng ăn thực phẩm nguyên chất và không chế biến cho phần lớn lượng dinh dưỡng của mình, nhưng có một số loại chất dinh dưỡng trong AG1, bao gồm các vi chất dinh dưỡng cụ thể mà rất khó hoặc không thể có được từ thực phẩm nguyên chất. Vì vậy, bằng cách uống AG1 hàng ngày, tôi nhận được các vitamin và khoáng chất mà tôi cần, cùng với probiotics và prebiotics cho sức khỏe ruột, và lần lượt là sức khỏe não bộ và hệ miễn dịch, và các adaptogen và vi chất dinh dưỡng quan trọng cần thiết cho tất cả các cơ quan và mô trong cơ thể. Vì vậy, bất cứ khi nào ai đó hỏi tôi nếu họ chỉ nên uống một loại thực phẩm chức năng, thì loại đó nên là gì, tôi luôn nói AG1, vì AG1 hỗ trợ nhiều hệ thống khác nhau trong não và cơ thể liên quan đến sức khỏe tâm thần, sức khỏe thể chất và hiệu suất của chúng ta. Nếu bạn muốn thử AG1, bạn có thể truy cập drinkag1.com/huberman. Tháng này, tháng 4 năm 2025, AG1 đang tặng một tháng cung cấp omega-3 cá, cùng với một chai vitamin D3 cộng với K2. Như tôi đã nhấn mạnh trước đây trong podcast này, omega-3 cá và vitamin D3 cộng với K2 đã được chứng minh là giúp ích cho mọi thứ từ tâm trạng và sức khỏe não đến sức khỏe tim mạch và sản xuất hormone khỏe mạnh, và nhiều hơn nữa. Một lần nữa, đó là drinkag1.
    com/huberman để nhận một tháng cung cấp miễn phí omega-3 từ dầu cá, cộng với một chai vitamin D3 cộng với K2 với đăng ký của bạn.
    Vậy, hãy nói về bốn loại sức bền và cách để đạt được chúng.
    Đầu tiên, chúng ta có sức bền cơ bắp. Sức bền cơ bắp là khả năng của các cơ để thực hiện công việc theo thời gian, và việc không thể tiếp tục thực hiện công việc đó sẽ do mệt mỏi cơ bắp, không phải do mệt mỏi tim mạch.
    Vì vậy, không phải vì chúng ta thở quá nặng nhọc, hoặc không đủ máu tới các cơ, hoặc vì chúng ta bỏ cuộc về mặt tinh thần, mà vì chính các cơ sẽ không còn hoạt động.
    Một ví dụ tốt về điều này là nếu bạn phải nhấc một viên đá trong sân, và viên đá đó không nặng lắm với bạn, và bạn cần làm điều đó từ 50 đến 100 lần, và bạn cứ nhấc nó lên và đặt xuống rồi lại nhấc lên và đặt xuống.
    Tại một thời điểm nào đó, các cơ của bạn sẽ bị mệt mỏi. Sức bền cơ bắp sẽ là thứ mà bạn có thể thực hiện từ 12 đến 25, hoặc thậm chí lên đến 100 lần.
    Một ví dụ tốt là hít đất. Thực ra, không có sự tình cờ nào khi mà nhiều chương trình huấn luyện kiểu quân đội không được thực hiện với tạ. Chúng được thực hiện với các bài tập như hít đất, kéo xà, gập bụng, và chạy bộ.
    Bởi vì những gì họ thực sự đang xây dựng là sức bền cơ bắp, khả năng thực hiện công việc một cách lặp đi lặp lại theo thời gian cho một nhóm cơ và dây thần kinh nhất định.
    Vì vậy, một quy trình huấn luyện sức bền cơ bắp thực sự tốt, theo tài liệu khoa học, sẽ là ba đến năm set với số lần lặp lại từ 12 đến 100. Đó là một phạm vi rất lớn.
    Bây giờ, 12 đến 25 lần lặp lại sẽ hợp lý hơn cho hầu hết mọi người. Và khoảng thời gian nghỉ giữa các set sẽ từ 30 đến 180 giây. Vậy là từ nửa phút đến ba phút nghỉ.
    Một đặc điểm quan trọng của việc xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp là nó không có yếu tố tải trọng nén lớn nào. Tôi chưa nói nhiều về tải trọng đồng tâm và eksentrik, nhưng tải trọng đồng tâm là khi bạn đang thu ngắn cơ, thường là, hoặc nâng một vật nặng.
    Còn các động tác eksentrik là khi bạn kéo dài cơ, thường là, hoặc hạ một vật nặng.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn làm một động tác kéo xà và đưa cằm bạn qua thanh xà hoặc kéo lên, đó là phần đồng tâm của nỗ lực.
    Và sau đó, khi bạn hạ thân mình xuống, đó là phần eksentrik. Phần eksentrik của bất kỳ bài tập kháng lực nào, cho dù nó là để xây dựng sức bền hay sức mạnh, là một trong những nguyên nhân chính gây ra cơn đau cơ.
    Một số người sẽ nhạy cảm với điều này hơn những người khác, nhưng nó thực sự gây ra nhiều tổn thương hơn trong các sợi cơ. Sức bền cơ bắp và việc xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp không nên bao gồm bất kỳ động tác nào có trọng tải eksentrik lớn.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn định làm hít đất, không có nghĩa là bạn muốn dồn ngực của mình xuống sàn. Và nhân tiện, ngực của bạn nên chạm đất trong mỗi lần hít đất.
    Đó mới gọi là hít đất thực sự. Nó về việc đẩy xuống cho đến khi ngực bạn chạm sàn và thẳng ra. Đó là một động tác hít đất hợp lý.
    Và kéo xà là khi bạn kéo cằm của mình qua thanh xà. Cả hai đều không nên bao gồm một giai đoạn eksentrik chậm hoặc nặng.
    Nếu bạn đang sử dụng những điều đó để huấn luyện sức bền cơ bắp, ba đến năm set từ 12 đến 25 lần lặp lại và thậm chí có thể lên đến 100 lần lặp lại với 30 đến 180 giây nghỉ giữa các set.
    Nhưng nếu bạn muốn xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp, bạn muốn làm cho các cơ của bạn có thể thực hiện công việc nhiều hơn trong thời gian dài hơn.
    Điều này sẽ trở thành ba đến năm set từ 12 đến 100 lần, 30 đến 180 giây với chủ yếu là chuyển động đồng tâm, được chưa? Không phải giai đoạn hạ chậm hay nặng.
    Vì vậy, điều đó có thể là các động tác đung đưa tạ kettlebell và những thứ tương tự. Các bài tập tĩnh, như tôi đã đề cập, những điều như plank và ngồi dựa tường cũng sẽ có tác dụng.
    Bây giờ, điều thú vị về điều này là nó không hề giống với những gì mọi người thường nghĩ là sức bền. Và tuy nhiên, qua các nghiên cứu đánh giá ngang hàng chất lượng tốt, sức bền cơ bắp có thể cải thiện khả năng của chúng ta tham gia vào những khoảng thời gian dài mà chúng ta gọi là công việc sức bền cường độ thấp, độ dài dài.
    Vì vậy, điều này có thể hỗ trợ các cuộc chạy dài, nó có thể hỗ trợ các cuộc bơi dài, và nó cũng có thể xây dựng, nó có thể xây dựng sức mạnh và sức bền tư thế đồng thời.
    Bây giờ, hãy nói về khoa học một cách ngắn gọn về lý do tại sao điều này hoạt động.
    Chà, điều này đưa chúng ta trở lại với vấn đề sử dụng nhiên liệu và điều gì bị thất bại.
    Vì vậy, nếu chúng ta nói, được rồi, hãy nói rằng bạn tập plank và bạn có thể plank trong một phút hoặc hai phút hoặc ba phút. Ở một thời điểm nào đó, bạn sẽ không thể tiếp tục.
    Bạn sẽ không thất bại vì tim bạn không hoạt động. Bạn sẽ không thất bại vì không đủ oxy vì bạn có thể thở trong khi làm điều đó.
    Bạn sẽ thất bại do sự thất bại cục bộ của cơ bắp, nghĩa là khi bạn làm, nếu bạn chọn thực hiện quy trình ba đến năm set, v.v., để xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp, chủ yếu, những gì bạn sẽ xây dựng là bạn đang xây dựng khả năng của các tế bào ty thể của bạn sử dụng oxy để tạo ra năng lượng cục bộ.
    Và đó gọi là hô hấp ty thể, hô hấp bởi vì có sự tham gia của oxy. Và nó cũng sẽ tăng cường mức độ mà các dây thần kinh kiểm soát các cơ và cung cấp kích thích cho các cơ co lại.
    Nhưng điều này là độc lập với sức mạnh và khả năng, được chưa?
    Vì vậy, ngay cả khi các set ít như ba đến năm set và thực tế rằng bạn đang thực hiện các lần lặp lại và bạn sẽ thất bại, mặc dù nó có vẻ tương tự với huấn luyện sức mạnh và tăng trưởng, nhưng nó thực sự khác biệt rõ rệt.
    Nó sẽ không tạo ra sức mạnh, khối cơ và công suất.
    Nó sẽ chủ yếu tạo ra khả năng chịu đựng, để co cơ liên tục hoặc co cơ lặp đi lặp lại, được không? Liên tục, nếu bạn đang sử dụng các động tác giữ cơ tĩnh, lặp đi lặp lại, xin lỗi, nếu bạn đang sử dụng bài tập kiểu lặp lại, nơi có sự co lại và giãn nở của cơ, chủ yếu là phần co cơ đồng tâm và phần co cơ nhượng tâm. Nhưng hãy nhớ rằng bạn muốn phần co cơ nhượng tâm nhẹ và nhanh tương đối, không quá nhanh đến mức bạn tự làm mình bị thương, nhưng chắc chắn là không cố gắng làm chậm lại.
    Tôi muốn tạm dừng một chút và cảm ơn một trong những nhà tài trợ của chúng tôi, Element. Element là một loại thức uống điện giải cung cấp mọi thứ bạn cần và không có gì bạn không cần. Điều đó có nghĩa là các điện giải, natri, magiê và kali với tỷ lệ chính xác, nhưng không có đường. Chúng ta đều biết rằng việc giữ nước đúng cách là rất quan trọng cho chức năng tối ưu của não và cơ thể. Thực tế, ngay cả một mức độ mất nước nhẹ cũng có thể làm giảm hiệu suất nhận thức và thể chất của bạn một cách đáng kể.
    Điều quan trọng là bạn không chỉ được cung cấp đủ nước, mà còn cần có đủ lượng điện giải với tỷ lệ đúng. Uống một gói Element hòa tan trong nước làm cho việc đảm bảo bạn có đủ nước và điện giải trở nên rất dễ dàng. Để chắc chắn rằng tôi nhận được đủ lượng cả hai, tôi hòa tan một gói Element trong khoảng 16 đến 32 ounces nước khi tôi thức dậy vào buổi sáng, và tôi uống điều đó ngay từ lúc đầu tiên trong buổi sáng. Tôi cũng sẽ uống một gói Element hòa tan trong nước trong bất kỳ loại bài tập thể chất nào mà tôi đang làm, đặc biệt là vào những ngày nóng khi tôi đổ mồ hôi nhiều và mất nước và điện giải.
    Có rất nhiều hương vị thơm ngon khác nhau của Element. Tôi thích hương dưa hấu. Tôi thích hương mâm xôi. Tôi thích hương cam chanh. Thực ra, tôi thích tất cả chúng. Nếu bạn muốn thử Element, bạn có thể truy cập drinkelement.com/huberman để nhận một gói mẫu Element với bất kỳ loại hỗn hợp uống Element nào bạn mua. Một lần nữa, đó là Drink Element, viết là L-M-N-T. Hãy truy cập drinkelement.com/huberman để yêu cầu một gói mẫu miễn phí.
    Tập phim hôm nay cũng được tài trợ bởi Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep làm các vỏ đệm thông minh với khả năng làm mát, làm nóng và theo dõi giấc ngủ. Tôi đã nói trước đây trong podcast này về việc cần thiết phải có đủ lượng giấc ngủ chất lượng mỗi đêm. Một trong những cách tốt nhất để đảm bảo có một giấc ngủ ngon là đảm bảo rằng nhiệt độ của môi trường ngủ của bạn là chính xác. Và điều đó là bởi vì để có thể ngủ sâu và duy trì giấc ngủ, nhiệt độ cơ thể của bạn thực sự phải giảm khoảng một đến ba độ. Và để thức dậy cảm thấy sảng khoái và tràn đầy năng lượng, nhiệt độ cơ thể của bạn thực tế phải tăng khoảng một đến ba độ. Eight Sleep tự động điều chỉnh nhiệt độ của giường của bạn suốt đêm theo nhu cầu riêng của bạn.
    Tôi thấy điều này vô cùng hữu ích vì tôi thích làm cho giường thật mát lạnh vào đầu đêm, thậm chí lạnh hơn giữa đêm và ấm lên khi tôi thức dậy. Đó là điều mang lại cho tôi giấc ngủ sóng chậm và giấc ngủ chuyển động mắt nhanh nhiều nhất. Tôi biết điều đó vì Eight Sleep có một thiết bị theo dõi giấc ngủ tuyệt vời báo cho tôi biết tôi đã ngủ như thế nào và các loại giấc ngủ mà tôi có được suốt đêm. Tôi đã ngủ trên một vỏ đệm Eight Sleep trong bốn năm nay, và nó đã hoàn toàn biến đổi và cải thiện chất lượng giấc ngủ của tôi. Mẫu mới nhất của họ, Pod 4 Ultra, cũng có khả năng phát hiện ngáy ngủ mà sẽ tự động nâng đầu bạn lên một vài độ để cải thiện luồng không khí và ngăn bạn ngáy ngủ. Nếu bạn quyết định thử Eight Sleep, bạn có 30 ngày để thử nó ở nhà, và bạn có thể trả lại nếu không thích, không cần hỏi lý do. Nhưng tôi chắc chắn rằng bạn sẽ thích nó.
    Hãy truy cập 8sleep.com/huberman để tiết kiệm lên đến 350 đô la cho Pod 4 Ultra của bạn. Eight Sleep giao hàng đến nhiều nước trên toàn thế giới, bao gồm Mexico và UAE. Một lần nữa, đó là 8sleep.com/huberman để tiết kiệm lên đến 350 đô la cho Pod 4 Ultra của bạn.
    Giờ hãy nói về cực đoan khác của sự chịu đựng, đó là sự chịu đựng lâu dài. Đây là kiểu mà mọi người thường nghĩ đến khi họ nói về sự chịu đựng. Bạn đang nói về một cuộc chạy dài, bơi dài, đạp xe dài. Chà, lâu bao nhiêu? Có thể từ 12 phút đến vài giờ, hoặc thậm chí một ngày hoàn toàn, có thể là tám hoặc chín giờ đi bộ, chạy hoặc đạp xe. Một số người thực sự đang tham gia những sự kiện dài như vậy, chẳng hạn như marathon. Bạn đang vào một nỗ lực lặp đi lặp lại thường xuyên, và khả năng của bạn để tiếp tục nỗ lực đó chủ yếu phụ thuộc vào hiệu quả của chuyển động, khả năng của bạn để tạo ra sự cân bằng giữa chính chuyển động, sự phát sinh của các chuyển động cơ bắp cần thiết và việc sử dụng năng lượng từ nhiều nguồn khác nhau.
    Việc sử dụng năng lượng từ các nguồn khác nhau của thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, tim và phổi. Vậy hãy đặt ra câu hỏi, tại sao bạn lại thất bại trong một cuộc chạy dài? Tại sao bạn lại bỏ cuộc? Vâng, tâm trí của bạn sẽ sử dụng nhiều hay ít năng lượng tùy thuộc vào mức độ ý chí, mức độ chiến đấu mà bạn phải tự mình vượt qua để tạo ra nỗ lực. Tôi thực sự muốn nhấn mạnh rằng ý chí phần nào đó là khả năng dành tài nguyên cho những điều. Và một phần của điều đó là việc đưa ra quyết định chỉ là làm hoặc không làm. Tôi không phải là người có tư tưởng “chỉ cần làm”. Tôi nghĩ rằng có một thời điểm và một nơi đúng để luyện tập, nhưng tôi cũng nghĩ rằng điều đó không tốt. Nói cách khác, nó sử dụng quá nhiều tài nguyên để lăn lộn trong việc đưa ra quyết định, và bạn có thể tiêu tốn nhiều năng lượng nhận thức để quyết định nên tập luyện hay không cũng nhiều như bạn dành cho việc tập luyện thực tế. Khi bạn ra ngoài chạy trong 30 phút, bạn đang xây dựng khả năng để lặp lại màn trình diễn đó lần sau khi hiệu quả hơn, thực sự tiêu tốn ít năng lượng hơn.
    Và điều này có thể có vẻ hơi ngược lại, nhưng mỗi khi bạn thực hiện bài chạy đó, những gì bạn đang làm là xây dựng mật độ ti thể. Không phải chỉ là về quá trình oxy hóa và hô hấp của ti thể. Bạn đang gia tăng mật độ ti thể. Bạn thực sự đang tăng lượng ATP mà bạn có thể tạo ra cho một khoảng thời gian nỗ lực nhất định. Bạn trở nên hiệu quả hơn. Được rồi. Bạn tiêu tốn ít năng lượng hơn khi thực hiện cùng một việc. Đó thực sự là điều mà những bài tập chạy khoảng cách dài, chậm hoặc những nỗ lực dài là về. Vậy tại sao lại thực hiện nỗ lực kéo dài như vậy? Tại sao bạn muốn làm điều đó? Tại sao điều đó lại tốt cho bạn? Vâng, nó thực hiện một điều rất quan trọng, đó là nó xây dựng các mạng lưới mao mạch trong cơ bắp. Đây là những con đường nhỏ như những dòng suối và cửa sông nho nhỏ giữa các động mạch và tĩnh mạch lớn hơn. Bạn thực sự có thể xây dựng mao mạch mới. Bạn có thể tạo ra những dòng chảy nhỏ mới trong cơ bắp của bạn. Và loại nỗ lực kéo dài mà tôi đã đề cập trước đó, từ 12 phút trở lên với nỗ lực đều đặn là rất hữu ích cho việc đó. Và rất hữu ích cho việc tăng cường số lượng ti thể, các yếu tố sản xuất năng lượng của tế bào, thực sự là tế bào cơ bắp. Và lý do là khi máu đến cơ bắp, nó có oxy. Cơ bắp sẽ sử dụng một phần oxy đó. Và sau đó, một phần máu không có oxy sẽ được gửi trở lại tim và phổi. Bây giờ, càng nhiều mao mạch bạn xây dựng vào những cơ đó, thì càng có nhiều oxy có sẵn cho những cơ đó. Vì vậy, công việc kéo dài này, không giống như sự bền bỉ cơ bắp như plank và mọi thứ mà chúng ta đã nói trước đó, thực sự là về việc xây dựng các hệ thống mao mạch và ti thể, các hệ thống sử dụng năng lượng bên trong chính các cơ. Rồi có hai loại ở giữa mà trong những năm gần đây đã thu hút nhiều sự chú ý và phấn khích, đôi khi được gọi là đào tạo cường độ cao theo chu kỳ. Vậy hãy nói về sự bền bỉ kỵ khí trước tiên. Từ góc độ giao thức, sự bền bỉ kỵ khí sẽ là từ 3 đến 12 hiệp. Được rồi. Và những hiệp này sẽ được thực hiện với bất kỳ tốc độ nào cho phép bạn hoàn thành công việc với hình thức an toàn, tốt. Được rồi. Vậy nên có thể nhanh. Có thể chậm. Khi công việc tiếp tục, số lần lặp có thể chậm lại hoặc có thể tăng tốc. Có khả năng là nó sẽ chậm lại. Vậy công việc này có gì? Những hiệp này trông như thế nào? Nhớ rằng khoảng cách dài, chậm là một hiệp. Sự bền bỉ của cơ bắp là từ 3 đến 5 hiệp. Sự bền bỉ kỵ khí cường độ cao sẽ nằm ở đâu đó giữa. từ 3 đến 12 hiệp. Và nó sẽ có tỷ lệ công việc so với nghỉ từ 3 đến 1 đến 1 đến 5. Được rồi. Vậy một hiệp có tỷ lệ 3:1 sẽ trông như thế nào? Vâng, nó sẽ là 30 giây đạp xe mạnh, chẳng hạn, hoặc chạy hoặc trên máy kéo. Đây chỉ là những ví dụ. Nó có thể là trong hồ bơi bơi lội. Nó có thể là rất nhiều thứ khác hoặc các bài squat không có tạ hoặc, bạn biết đấy, hoặc squat với tạ. Nếu bạn có thể quản lý 30 giây hoạt động, 10 giây nghỉ. Đó là một khoảng nghỉ rất ngắn. Vậy tỷ lệ 3:1 là một ví dụ tốt sẽ là 30 giây hoạt động và 10 giây nghỉ. Đối tượng cực ngược lại của tỷ lệ đó sẽ là 1:5. Vậy là 20 giây hoạt động, 100 giây nghỉ. Bạn thực hiện công việc trong 20 giây, rồi nghỉ 100 giây. Vậy hãy cùng xem xét tỷ lệ 3:1. Vì vậy, trong tỷ lệ 3:1, nếu bạn thực hiện 30 giây đạp xe mạnh trên xe đạp, sau đó là 10 giây. Vì vậy có thể là một trong những, cái được gọi là xe đạp tấn công. Sau đó, bạn dừng lại trong 10 giây và sau đó lặp lại. Có khả năng bạn sẽ có thể thực hiện một, hai, ba, bốn, có thể thậm chí là tới 12 hiệp. Nếu bạn thực sự có sức khỏe tốt, bạn có thể thực hiện tất cả những điều đó vì việc đạp xe không yêu cầu nhiều kỹ năng. Và nếu bạn thực hiện sai cách, nếu khuỷu tay của bạn xòe ra một chút hoặc điều gì đó, thì rất ít khả năng bạn sẽ bị chấn thương trừ khi nó thực sự là cực đoan. Được rồi. Nhưng cùng một động tác, ví dụ, với tạ kettlebell. Vì vậy, 30 giây hoạt động 10 giây nghỉ. Hiệp đầu tiên có thể sẽ ở dạng tốt. Hiệp thứ hai sẽ ở dạng khá tốt, nhưng giả sử bạn đang thực hiện đến hiệp thứ năm và thứ sáu và bạn thực hiện 30 giây hoạt động 10 giây nghỉ. Có khả năng chất lượng của các lần lặp lại của bạn sẽ giảm đáng kể. Và bạn tăng xác suất rằng bạn sẽ bị chấn thương. Nếu chất lượng hình thức là quan trọng. Vì vậy có thể đây là khi sử dụng tạ. Có thể bạn đang thực hiện squat. Vì vậy bạn sẽ thực hiện 20 giây hoạt động và 100 giây nghỉ. Điều bạn sẽ thấy là khoảng nghỉ dài hơn, mặc dù là 20 giây nỗ lực mạnh mẽ, được theo sau bởi một khoảng nghỉ dài hơn khoảng 100 giây sẽ cho phép bạn thực hiện nhiều lần lặp lại chất lượng hơn một cách an toàn theo thời gian. Vậy có thể là ba hiệp của 20 giây nỗ lực mạnh, tiếp theo là 100 giây nghỉ. Sau đó bạn lặp lại 20 giây nỗ lực mạnh, 100 giây nghỉ, 20 giây nỗ lực, 100 giây nghỉ. Và bạn có thể thực hiện điều đó hai lần một tuần. Khi thực hiện điều đó, bạn sẽ xây dựng những gì chúng ta gọi là sự bền bỉ kỵ khí. Sự bền bỉ kỵ khí sẽ đưa hệ thống của bạn lên hơn 100% VO2 max của bạn. Nó sẽ đưa nhịp tim của bạn lên rất cao, và nó sẽ tối đa hóa hệ thống sử dụng oxy của bạn. Điều đó sẽ có những tác động dẫn đến mệt mỏi vào một thời điểm nào đó trong buổi tập luyện, và cảm giác đó sẽ kích hoạt một sự thích nghi. Vậy hãy hỏi điều gì nó kích hoạt. Vâng, nó kích hoạt cả hô hấp ti thể, khả năng của ti thể của bạn tạo ra nhiều năng lượng hơn bằng cách sử dụng nhiều oxy hơn, bởi vì bạn đang đưa vào rất nhiều, bạn đang tối đa hóa. Thực sự, bạn đang vượt qua VO2 max của mình, bạn đang chạm đến ngưỡng mà bạn có thể sử dụng bao nhiêu oxy trong hệ thống của bạn. Một trong những sự thích nghi sẽ là ti thể của bạn sẽ chuyển đổi để có thể sử dụng nhiều oxy hơn.
    Và bạn cũng sẽ tăng cường các giường mao mạch, nhưng không nhiều như bạn có thể tăng cường lượng sự tham gia của tế bào thần kinh vào cơ bắp.
    Vì vậy, thường thì, khi chúng ta bắt đầu mệt mỏi, khi chúng ta kiệt sức, khi chúng ta thở rất mạnh, vì các hệ thống của cơ thể liên kết với nhau, và cũng có một yếu tố tâm lý trong điều này, một loại yếu tố động lực.
    Sau bộ thứ ba hoặc thứ tư hoặc thứ sáu, bạn biết đó, 20 giây hoạt động rồi 100 giây nghỉ, hoặc nếu bạn ở cực trái ngược, 30 giây hoạt động và 10 giây nghỉ, sẽ có một yếu tố bạn muốn dừng lại.
    Và việc vượt qua và lặp lại một bộ nữa một cách an toàn, tất nhiên, điều bạn đang làm là huấn luyện các tế bào thần kinh có thể truy cập nhiều năng lượng hơn, thực sự chuyển đổi điều đó thành ATP, và do đó, cho các cơ bắp truy cập nhiều năng lượng và ATP hơn.
    Và sự thích nghi nằm ở khả năng của ty thể trong việc sử dụng oxy.
    Và điều này có những hiệu ứng tích cực rất lớn cho các loại bài tập khác.
    Điều này có thể có lợi trong thể thao cạnh tranh hoặc thể thao đồng đội nơi có yếu tố chạy nước rút, nơi sân cỏ mở ra và bạn cần phải dẫn bóng xuống sân, chẳng hạn, và sút vào khung thành.
    Hoặc khi bạn chơi tennis, và đó là một cuộc truyền bóng dài, và sau đó bỗng nhiên, có ai đó thực sự bắt đầu, bạn biết đấy, làm bạn phải cưỡng chế, và bạn phải rất nỗ lực để chạy đến lưới và đưa bóng qua những thứ tương tự.
    Được rồi.
    Có nhiều nơi có sự chuyển giao từ loại đào tạo này, nhưng nó hỗ trợ sức bền.
    Nó liên quan đến sức bền của cơ bắp.
    Nó liên quan đến khả năng của các cơ này tạo ra nhiều lực trong thời gian ngắn, nhưng lặp đi lặp lại.
    Được rồi, đó là cách để hình dung điều này.
    Và nó khác với sức mạnh tối đa.
    Mặc dù cảm giác như nỗ lực tối đa, nhưng nó không giống như việc xây dựng sức mạnh và tốc độ trong các cơ bắp.
    Đó là những giao thức khác biệt rõ ràng.
    Vì vậy, các yếu tố chính, một lần nữa, là bạn đang tăng cường việc thở và sử dụng oxy của mình lên cao hơn mức tối đa.
    Nó không hoàn toàn chạm vào thất bại, nhưng bạn thực sự đang ép hệ thống đến mức bạn không sẵn sàng thực hiện một bộ khác.
    Và bạn vẫn bắt đầu một bộ khác.
    Bạn không nhất thiết đã sẵn sàng về mặt tâm lý.
    Tôi muốn chắc chắn đề cập đến giao thức thứ tư, đó là điều kiện aerobic cường độ cao.
    Vì vậy, HIIT có hai hình thức này, kỵ khí và hiệp khí.
    Và bạn vừa nghe về kỵ khí.
    Điều kiện aerobic cường độ cao cũng bao gồm khoảng ba đến mười hai bộ.
    Tỷ lệ một đối một là rất mạnh mẽ trong việc xây dựng, trung bình, hầu hết các hệ thống năng lượng liên quan.
    Nhớ rằng, chúng ta có các dây thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, tim và phổi.
    Tỷ lệ một đối một có thể là bạn chạy một dặm và bất kể mất bao lâu.
    Bạn có thể chạy dặm đầu tiên, giả sử là bảy phút.
    Sau đó bạn nghỉ bảy phút.
    Rồi bạn chạy một dặm nữa.
    Và có thể mất tám phút và bạn nghỉ tám phút.
    Và bạn tiếp tục như vậy cho một tổng số bốn dặm công việc, bốn dặm công việc chạy, tôi nên nói.
    Bạn có thể tích lũy điều này.
    Nhiều người thấy rằng việc sử dụng loại đào tạo này cho phép họ thực hiện những việc như chạy nửa marathon và marathon, ngay cả khi trước ngày đua, họ chưa bao giờ thực sự chạy nửa marathon hoặc marathon.
    Bây giờ điều đó có vẻ đáng kinh ngạc.
    Giống như, làm thế nào mà việc chạy một dặm rồi, rồi nghỉ để chạy một dặm rồi nghỉ trong một khoảng thời gian tương đương, chạy một dặm, nghỉ trong khoảng thời gian tương đương cho bảy dặm lại cho phép bạn chạy liên tục trong 13 dặm hoặc 26 dặm?
    Nó cải thiện ATP và chức năng ty thể trong cơ bắp.
    Nó cho phép máu cung cấp nhiều oxy hơn cho cơ bắp và cho não của bạn.
    Và nó cho phép trái tim bạn cung cấp nhiều oxy tổng thể hơn.
    Và nó xây dựng một sức chứa phổi đáng kể.
    Vậy điều này sẽ như thế nào?
    Và khi nào bạn nên thực hiện điều này?
    Thực ra, đây là một câu hỏi cho các buổi tập này khi đặt ra câu hỏi rằng một người có thể làm bao nhiêu công việc trong tám đến mười hai phút, đúng không?
    Và sau đó nghỉ và sau đó lặp lại.
    Bạn có thể làm bao nhiêu công việc trong tám đến mười hai phút, sau đó nghỉ và rồi lặp lại?
    Và bạn nên thực hiện điều này bao nhiêu lần?
    Chà, đó là kiểu điều, nó khá căng thẳng.
    Và vì vậy, bạn có thể chỉ muốn làm điều này hai, có thể ba lần một tuần nếu bạn không thực hiện nhiều điều khác.
    Vì vậy, chúng ta có bốn loại sức bền, sức bền cơ bắp.
    Chúng ta có sức bền lâu dài.
    Chúng ta có đào tạo interval cường độ cao của hai loại, kỵ khí và hiệp khí.
    Và loại cuối cùng này, loại hiệp khí thì hoạt động tốt nhất.
    Có vẻ như nếu bạn làm theo tỷ lệ một đối một này.
    Vậy bạn sẽ sử dụng chúng như thế nào và chúng thực sự đang làm gì?
    Chúng thực sự đang làm gì?
    Hãy nói về trái tim và phổi và oxy, vì đó là điều mà chúng ta đều có thể hưởng lợi từ việc hiểu biết.
    Não và tim có lẽ là hai hệ thống quan trọng nhất mà bạn cần chăm sóc trong cuộc sống của mình.
    Duy trì hoặc cải thiện chức năng não và chức năng tim mạch, rõ ràng là chìa khóa cho sức khỏe và thời gian sống lâu dài trong ngắn hạn và dài hạn.
    Và các loại đào tạo mà tôi đã nói đến hôm nay đã được chứng minh nhiều lần là rất hữu ích trong việc tăng cường sức mạnh của tâm trí.
    Vâng, tôi sẽ nói về điều đó cũng như sức khỏe của não và cơ thể.
    Tôi muốn nghỉ một chút và công nhận một trong những nhà tài trợ của chúng tôi, Function.
    Gần đây, tôi đã trở thành thành viên của Function sau khi tìm kiếm một cách tiếp cận toàn diện nhất cho việc xét nghiệm lab.
    Trong khi tôi đã rất yêu thích việc xét nghiệm máu, tôi thực sự muốn tìm một chương trình sâu hơn để phân tích máu, nước tiểu, và nước bọt của mình nhằm có bức tranh toàn diện hơn về sức khỏe tim mạch của tôi, tình trạng hormone của tôi, tình trạng điều hòa miễn dịch của tôi, chức năng chuyển hóa của tôi, tình trạng vitamin và khoáng chất của tôi, và các lĩnh vực quan trọng khác của sức khỏe và sự sống động tổng thể của tôi.
    Function không chỉ cung cấp xét nghiệm hơn 100 dấu hiệu sinh học quan trọng cho sức khỏe thể chất và tinh thần, mà nó còn phân tích những kết quả này và cung cấp những hiểu biết từ các bác sĩ hàng đầu.
    Ví dụ, trong một trong những bài kiểm tra đầu tiên của tôi với Function, tôi đã biết rằng mình có mức thủy ngân cao trong máu. Function không chỉ giúp tôi phát hiện ra điều đó mà còn cung cấp những thông tin về cách tốt nhất để giảm mức thủy ngân của tôi, bao gồm việc hạn chế tiêu thụ cá ngừ. Và thật lòng mà nói, vào thời điểm đó, tôi đã ăn rất nhiều cá ngừ, trong khi cũng cố gắng ăn nhiều rau xanh hơn và bổ sung NAC và acetylcysteine, cả hai đều có thể hỗ trợ sản xuất glutathione và giải độc. Và thú thật, nó đã hiệu quả. Mức thủy ngân của tôi hiện nay đã nằm trong khoảng an toàn. Các xét nghiệm lab toàn diện như vậy rất quan trọng cho sức khỏe vì thực sự có rất nhiều điều xảy ra trong máu của chúng ta và ở những nơi khác trong cơ thể mà chúng ta không thể phát hiện nếu không có xét nghiệm máu và nước tiểu chất lượng. Và trong khi tôi đã cố gắng để có những bài kiểm tra đó trong nhiều năm, nó luôn quá phức tạp và thực sự, khá đắt tiền. Function đã đơn giản hóa tất cả điều đó và làm cho nó rất phải chăng. Tôi đã rất ấn tượng với Function đến mức tôi quyết định tham gia vào hội đồng tư vấn khoa học của họ, và tôi rất vui vì họ đang tài trợ cho podcast này. Nếu bạn muốn thử Function, bạn có thể truy cập functionhealth.com/huberman. Chỉ trong tuần này, từ ngày 14 tháng 4 đến 20 tháng 4 năm 2025, Function đang cung cấp tín dụng 100 đô la cho 1.000 người đầu tiên đăng ký thành viên Function. Để nhận tín dụng 100 đô la này, hãy sử dụng mã Huberman100 khi thanh toán. Truy cập functionhealth.com/huberman để tìm hiểu thêm và bắt đầu. Vậy hãy nói về những loại thích nghi đang xảy ra trong não và cơ thể của bạn, rất có lợi trong những loại hình tập luyện khác nhau này. Nếu bạn đang thở hổn hển và tim của bạn đang đập nhanh, chắc chắn đó sẽ là trong chế độ tập luyện cường độ cao, cả hiếu khí và kỵ khí, vì bạn đang đạt gần đến VO2 max trong chế độ tập luyện hiếu khí cường độ cao, và bạn đang vượt quá VO2 max trong chế độ tập luyện kỵ khí cường độ cao. Điều gì sẽ xảy ra là, tất nhiên, khi tim bạn đập nhanh hơn, máu sẽ lưu thông nhanh hơn về nguyên tắc. Việc sử dụng oxy trong cơ bắp sẽ tăng lên. Và theo thời gian, không lâu, rất nhanh, điều gì sẽ xảy ra khi các giường mao mạch đó bắt đầu mở rộng, thêm vào đó, vì lượng máu đang trở về tim, khi bạn tham gia vào những nỗ lực thực sự mãnh liệt này, lặp đi lặp lại, lượng máu trở về tim thực sự gây ra một tải trọng lệch tâm lên một trong những thành cơ của tim. Vậy tim của bạn là cơ, nó là cơ tim. Chúng ta có cơ xương gắn với xương của chúng ta, và chúng ta có cơ tim, đó là tim của chúng ta. Khi nhiều máu trở về tim hơn vì công việc bổ sung mà cơ bắp và dây thần kinh của bạn thực hiện, điều đó thực sự có tác dụng tạo ra một tải trọng lệch tâm, một kiểu đẩy của thành bên trái. Tôi nhận ra tôi không sử dụng đúng cách giải phẫu ở đây, nhưng tôi không muốn đi sâu vào tất cả các đặc điểm của các cấu trúc tim. Nhưng tâm thất trái thực sự bị đập mạnh và sau đó cần phải đẩy lại và kiểu tải trọng lệch tâm của cơ tim và cơ sẽ dày lên khi nhiều máu được đưa trở lại tim. Có một sự thích nghi ở đó mà cơ tim thực sự mạnh hơn và do đó có thể bơm nhiều máu hơn mỗi nhịp, mỗi lần đập. Và khi nó làm điều đó, nó cung cấp, vì máu chứa glucose và oxy và những thứ khác, nó cung cấp nhiều năng lượng hơn cho cơ bắp của bạn, cho phép bạn thực hiện thêm nhiều công việc hơn trong một đơn vị thời gian. Nếu bạn thực hiện loại tập luyện cường độ cao mà trái tim của bạn đập rất mạnh, có thể là tỷ lệ một trên một trong những lần chạy một dặm mà tôi đã mô tả trước đó, rất nhanh chóng, thể tích nhát bơm của trái tim bạn sẽ thực sự tăng lên. Và do đó, bạn có thể cung cấp nhiều năng lượng hơn cho cơ bắp và não của bạn. Chức năng nhận thức của bạn sẽ cải thiện. Điều này đã được chứng minh nhiều lần vì có sự tăng trưởng trong mạch máu, thực sự là các giường mao mạch bên trong não, vùng hải mã, những khu vực hỗ trợ trí nhớ, nhưng cũng là những khu vực của não. Nhưng cũng là những khu vực của não hỗ trợ hô hấp, hỗ trợ sự tập trung, hỗ trợ nỗ lực. Giờ đây, tập tạ cũng có một số tác động tích cực đến chức năng não. Tuy nhiên, rất rõ ràng và bạn nên hiểu một cách trực quan bây giờ tại sao các loại tập luyện sức mạnh và phát triển cơ bắp tiêu chuẩn sẽ không kích hoạt việc cung cấp oxy trong máu và tăng thể tích nhát bơm cho tim mà những loại hình tập luyện mà tôi đang nói đến hôm nay sẽ làm. Nó không có cùng hiệu ứng tích cực. Một điều khác mà thực sự quan trọng cần suy nghĩ về trong công việc loại bền bỉ là độ ẩm. Và tôi nghĩ rằng độ ẩm là quan trọng cho tất cả các hình thức công việc thể chất và tập thể dục, không chỉ riêng cho bền bỉ. Thông thường, chúng ta sẽ mất từ một đến năm pound nước mỗi giờ tập luyện. Và điều này sẽ thay đổi rất nhiều. Nó sẽ thay đổi theo thời tiết. Nó sẽ thay đổi theo cường độ, có lẽ là khoảng năm pound nếu đó là một ngày nóng và bạn đang tập luyện rất cường độ. Vì vậy, nếu bạn nghĩ về trọng lượng của mình bằng pound, khi bạn mất khoảng từ một đến bốn phần trăm trọng lượng cơ thể của mình trong nước, bạn sẽ trải qua khoảng 20 đến 30% giảm năng lực làm việc, trong khả năng tạo ra nỗ lực của bất kỳ loại nào, sức mạnh, bền bỉ, vv. Bạn cũng sẽ trải qua một sự suy giảm đáng kể trong khả năng suy nghĩ và thực hiện các hoạt động tâm thần. Vì vậy, độ ẩm là chìa khóa. Kali, natri và magiê thực sự là rất quan trọng. Vâng, điều đó là đúng. Bạn có thể chết nếu uống quá nhiều nước, đặc biệt là vì điều đó khiến bạn. Nếu bạn uống quá nhiều nước, bạn sẽ bài tiết quá nhiều điện giải, và não của bạn sẽ ngưng hoạt động. Trên thực tế, tim của bạn sẽ ngừng hoạt động đúng cách. Vì vậy, bạn cũng không muốn tiêu thụ quá nhiều nước đến mức cực đoan. Một công thức đơn giản, mà tôi gọi là phương trình Galpin, đó là trọng lượng cơ thể của bạn tính bằng pound chia cho số 30.
    Và đó là số ounces bạn nên uống cho mỗi 15 phút tập thể dục. Giờ đây, nếu bạn đổ mồ hôi nhiều, bạn có thể cần nhiều hơn. Nếu bạn đã rất được hydrat hóa, bạn có thể cần ít hơn, nhưng đó là một quy tắc tốt để bắt đầu. Và để bắt đầu hiểu mối quan hệ giữa việc hydrat hóa và hiệu suất. Chúng ta không nói nhiều về thực phẩm bổ sung ngày hôm nay. Trong các tập trước, tôi đã nói về hệ thống phosphocreatine và việc bổ sung creatine. Chúng ta đã nói về beta alanine cho công việc có thời gian vừa phải. Thực sự, những điều duy nhất đã được chứng minh là cải thiện công việc bền bỉ trong bốn dạng công việc bền bỉ mà tôi đã mô tả hôm nay. Chúng có hai hình thức cơ bản. Một là các chất kích thích. Vì vậy, những thứ như caffeine chắc chắn sẽ cải thiện công việc bền bỉ và sản lượng năng lượng. Một số dạng magnesium, đặc biệt là magnesium malate (M-A-L-A-T-E), đã được chứng minh là hữu ích cho việc loại bỏ hoặc giảm thiểu độ đau cơ chậm xuất hiện. Dạng magnesium này khác biệt rõ rệt so với các loại magnesium tốt cho giấc ngủ, như magnesium threonate và bi-glycinate. Nói chung, hôm nay chúng ta chủ yếu tập trung vào các công cụ hành vi. Và tôi hy vọng tôi đã truyền đạt cho bạn rằng sự bền bỉ không chỉ là một điều. Nó không chỉ là khả năng thực hiện các bài tập kéo dài khác nhau. Mà còn có yếu tố tinh thần nữa, vì cách mà các neuron hoạt động. Và cũng có những dạng bền bỉ khác nhau, của sự bền bỉ cơ bắp, nơi bạn sẽ thất bại vì cơ bắp và việc sử dụng năng lượng của cơ bắp cũng như các dây thần kinh chi phối các cơ bắp đó ở khu vực địa phương, chứ không phải vì không đủ oxy hay máu. Trong khi đó, nỗ lực kéo dài sẽ chủ yếu liên quan đến việc bạn ở dưới mức VO2 tối đa của mình và khả năng của bạn để hiệu quả cho các cơn tập kéo dài hơn 12 phút. Một lần, như họ nói, từ 12 phút đến có thể là vài giờ. Tập huấn cường độ cao sẽ khai thác các nguồn năng lượng và cơ chế khác như chúng ta đã học hôm nay. Và cuối cùng nhưng không kém phần quan trọng, cảm ơn bạn đã quan tâm đến khoa học.
    歡迎來到 Huberman Lab Essentials,
    在這裡我們將重溫過去的節目,
    以獲取最有效且可操作的科學基礎工具,
    用於心理健康、身體健康和表現。
    我是安德魯·胡伯曼,
    我在斯坦福醫學院擔任神經生物學和眼科的教授。
    這個播客與我在斯坦福的教學
    和研究角色是分開的。
    然而,這是我希望和努力
    以零成本向大眾提供有關科學及其相關工具資訊的一部分。
    今天,我想談談耐力,
    以及如何建立耐力,
    並如何利用耐力
    來促進整個身體的健康。
    耐力,顧名思義,
    是我們持續進行運動
    或持續移動或持續努力的能力。
    顯然,有氧運動,
    在一段時間內讓心率持續上升的運動,
    對於開發和增強我們在身體和大腦中的多種生理功能至關重要,
    使我們的腦子能夠在更長的時間內執行工作,
    進行專注的工作、學習等。
    關於身體能量產生的關鍵點是我們所稱的 ATP。
    ATP 是任何需要能量的事物所必需的,
    任何需要努力的行為。
    因此,我們的肌肉和神經元使用不同的燃料來源
    來生成 ATP。
    在短時間的劇烈活動中,
    首先使用的燃料是像磷酸肌酸這類物質。
    如果你只聽說過肌酸作為一種補充劑,
    實際上,磷酸肌酸存在於我們的肌肉中,
    這就是為什麼人們會服用肌酸。
    你可以讓你的肌肉儲存更多的肌酸。
    磷酸肌酸非常適用於短暫而劇烈的努力。
    然後你開始使用像葡萄糖這樣的東西,
    它實際上就是碳水化合物。
    它就是你血液中的糖分。
    如果你持續努力,
    你開始利用其他燃料來源,如肝醣。
    你在脂肪組織中存有脂肪。
    即使你的體脂百分比非常非常低,
    你也可以從這些脂肪中提取脂質和脂肪酸。
    它就像一個儲存包。
    它是一個可以轉換為 ATP 的能量儲存包。
    不需要進一步的詳細說明,
    當我今天提到能量,或者我說 ATP 時,
    只需記住,無論你的飲食如何,
    無論你的營養計劃如何,
    你的身體都有能力使用肌酸、
    葡萄糖、肝醣、脂質,
    如果你是生酮飲食,則使用酮。
    以便生成燃料、能量。
    現在,另一個關鍵點是,
    為了完成將這些燃料轉化為能量的過程,
    大多數時間你需要氧氣。
    基本上,你需要空氣進入系統中。
    現在,它不是實際的空氣,你需要氧分子
    進入你的系統,透過口鼻進入,去到肺部,
    並通過血流分布。
    氧氣不是燃料,
    但就像沒有氧氣的火一樣,
    你實際上無法燒木頭。
    但當你向火中吹入大量的氧氣,
    基本上對著有火焰的木頭,
    那麼它基本上會著火,
    它會燃燒,對吧?
    氧氣讓你能夠燃燒燃料。
    因此,今天我們要提出關鍵問題。
    什麼讓我們能夠表現?
    什麼讓我們能夠持續努力很長時間?
    我們通常會想到意志力,
    但什麼是意志力?
    意志力是神經元。
    它是我們大腦中的神經元。
    我們有一種稱為中央調節器的東西,
    它決定我們是否應該
    或能夠繼續
    或者是否應該停止,
    我們是否應該放棄。
    所以我們必須提出問題,
    表現的限制因素是什麼?
    什麼阻止我們忍耐?
    什麼阻止我們向前邁進?
    哪些因素說,
    你知道嗎?
    不再了。
    我不會繼續這次奔跑。
    現在,有五個主要類別的東西
    使我們能夠進行努力。
    我並不想完全忽略像免疫系統
    和身體其他系統的事情,
    但神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺
    是我今天想要關注的五個類別,
    因為那裡有大多數的數據。
    讓我們談談神經元及其工作原理,好嗎?
    但是我想告訴你一個實驗,
    它將非常清楚地顯示
    為什麼放棄是一種心理現象,
    而不是生理現象。
    那麼,為什麼我們會放棄呢?
    幾年前進行了一項實驗,
    並發表在《Cell》雜誌上,
    《Cell Press》期刊,這是一個優秀的期刊,
    顯示我們腦幹中有一類神經元,
    在我們大腦的後部,
    如果它們關閉,我們就會放棄。
    這些神經元釋放腎上腺素。
    腎上腺素就是腎上腺素。
    每當我們進行任何努力時,
    我們都會釋放腎上腺素。
    只要我們清醒,
    我們的腦內就會釋放腎上腺素。
    事實上,這組小神經元
    在我們的大腦後部,
    如果你想稱之為藍斑,
    始終在釋放腎上腺素。
    但如果某些事情使我們感到壓力,
    它會釋放更多,然後它會作為整個大腦的警覺信號。
    當然,我們的身體中也會釋放腎上腺素,
    使我們的身體為各種活動做好準備。
    因此,將腎上腺素視為準備信號。
    當我們正在努力時,
    這一準備信號將被引入我們的大腦。
    當我們放鬆並入睡時,
    腎上腺素水平較低。
    因此,我們想要繼續的渴望,或者換句話說,
    我們願意繼續的意願和我們想要放棄的渴望
    是由我們兩耳之間的事件所調節。
    這並不意味著身體沒有參與,
    但這意味著神經元是至關重要的。
    所以我們有兩類重要的神經元。
    一類是在我們的頭腦中,告訴我們起來
    並去進行跑步的神經元。
    另一類則是鼓勵我們
    繼續跑步的神經元。
    我們還有一些會關閉的神經元,告訴我們不再了。
    我們當然有連接到肌肉的神經元,並且控制我們的肌肉。但我們放棄的原因很少是因為身體放棄,而是因為心靈放棄。因此,當人們說有沒有,我聽到這樣的說法,你知道的,運動或努力或奮鬥,或者說是90%心理,10%身體。關於多少是心理,多少是身體的整個討論無疑是愚蠢的。這其實是100%的神經系統,完全是神經元。好吧,當人們談到心理或身體時,明白這完全是神經問題。
    那麼,神經元需要什麼才能持續發動?你需要什麼才能讓神經元說:「我會堅持下去」?他們需要葡萄糖。除非你是生酮飲食並已適應生酮,否則你需要的碳水化合物就是葡萄糖。這是神經元運作的來源。而且你需要電解質。神經元有一種被稱為鈉鉀泵的東西,等等。他們產生電能,以便讓神經細胞發動、收縮肌肉,告訴自己「我要繼續」。你需要足夠的鈉鹽,因為行動電位,即神經元的實際發動,是由鈉進入細胞並迅速進入細胞驅動的。然後會移除鉀,然後通過一種稱為鈉鉀泵的東西重置這些水平,鈉鉀泵以及鈉和行動電位。即使你對這些一無所知,甚至不知道這需要ATP的依賴,這也需要能量。因此,你需要能量才能讓神經元發動。此外,這是pH依賴的。這取決於大腦內部的環境是否具有某種pH或酸度。pH是環境酸性或鹼性的程度。神經需要鹽,需鉀。而且它們還需要鎂。你還需要葡萄糖和碳水化合物來為這些神經元提供能量,除非你是在利用酮體。
    肌肉。肌肉將首先利用這個磷酸肌酸系統來啟動和產生能量。高強度的努力,真的很強烈的努力,持續的時間通常是幾秒到幾分鐘,但更可能是幾秒鐘,將會是這個磷酸肌酸,真的是一種在肌肉中燃燒的燃料來源,就像你在燃燒火堆中的柴一樣。而糖原,這是在肌肉中儲存的碳水化合物,他們將其轉換成ATP,以產生那種能量。然後我們的血液中有可用作能量來源的東西。在血液中,我們有葡萄糖。所以字面上說,圍繞著的血糖。假設你已經禁食了三天,你的血糖將會非常低。因此,這不會是一個很好的燃料來源,但你將開始從你的脂肪組織,從你的脂肪中釋放脂肪。脂肪酸將會開始動員進入血流中,你可以燃燒這些獲取能量。
    現在,還有一些其他重要因素,那就是心臟,這將促進血液的流動。因此,心臟能夠更好地推動血液和氧氣,這樣就會有更多的燃料可以用於你參與肌肉工作和思考的努力。正如我已經提到過幾次的,氧氣非常重要。你需要將氧氣注入並分配到這些組織中,因為氧氣對於碳水化合物和脂肪的轉換至關重要。因此,當我們問這個問題,或甚至是中等長度的努力時,我們需要問那些東西,神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺部,哪一個是限制因素?或者換句話說,我們應該如何使用我們的神經元?我們應該如何使用我們的肌肉?我們應該如何使用我們的血液?我們應該如何使用我們的心臟?我們應該如何使用我們的肺部?這將使我們能夠為心理和身體的工作建立耐力,並且能夠做得更長、更遠、更有強度。
    我想稍作休息,感謝我們的贊助商,AG1。AG1是一種維生素礦物質益生菌飲品,還含有適應原。我在2012年開始飲用AG1,那時我甚至不知道什麼是播客。我開始飲用它,並且每天都在飲用,因為它確保我滿足每日維生素和礦物質的配額,並幫助我確保獲取足夠的益生元和益生菌,以支持我的腸道健康。在過去的10年中,腸道健康已被認為是重要的,不僅對我們的消化系統,也對我們的免疫系統以及神經遞質和神經調節劑的生成(例如多巴胺和血清素)至關重要。換句話說,腸道健康對於大腦正常功能至關重要。當然,我努力從未加工的來源中食用健康整食,作為我營養攝取的主要部分,但AG1中有許多特定微量營養素是從整食中難以或不可能獲得的。因此,通過每天服用AG1,我能獲得所需的維生素和礦物質,以及腸道健康所需的益生菌和益生元,反過來又有助於大腦和免疫系統的健康,以及所有器官和組織所需的適應原和關鍵微量營養素。
    所以,每當有人問我如果只需服用一種補充品,那應是什麼時,我總是會說AG1,因為AG1支持許多與我們的心理健康、身體健康和表現有關的系統。如果你想試用AG1,可以訪問drinkag1.com/huberman。在這個月,2025年四月,AG1正提供免費的一個月供應的Omega-3魚油,以及一瓶維生素D3加K2。正如我在這個播客中之前強調的,Omega-3魚油和維生素D3加K2已被證明有助於從情緒和大腦健康到心臟健康和健康的激素生成等很多方面,還有更多。再次提醒,這是drinkag1。
    com/huberman 以獲取免費的一個月供應的Omega-3魚油,並在訂閱時還能獲得一瓶維他命D3加K2。
    那麼,讓我們來談談四種耐力以及如何達成它們。
    首先,我們有肌肉耐力。肌肉耐力是指我們的肌肉能夠長時間進行工作的能力,而我們無法繼續進行該工作的原因是肌肉疲勞,而不是心血管疲勞。因此,並不是因為我們呼吸過於急促,或因為血液無法夠到達肌肉,或者因為心理上放棄,而是因為肌肉本身的力量耗盡了。
    例如,假設你需要在院子裡撿起一塊石頭,那塊石頭對你來說並不特別重,你需要撿起來放下去,重複做50到100次。在某一時刻,你的肌肉將會感到疲勞。
    肌肉耐力的表現範圍通常在12到25次,甚至最多可達100次。所以,俯臥撐就是一個很好的例子。其實很多軍事訓練營式的訓練並不使用重物,反而是進行像俯臥撐、引體向上、仰臥起坐和跑步等動作。因為他們的重點是建立肌肉耐力,即持續相同的肌肉和神經元進行多次工作的能力。
    根據科學文獻,肌肉耐力訓練的理想方案是進行三到五組,每組12到100次,這是一個很大的範圍。對於大多數人來說,12到25次會更為合理,而休息時間則是在30到180秒之間,也就是從半分鐘到三分鐘的休息時間。
    建立肌肉耐力的一個關鍵因素是,它不應包含任何主要的偏心負荷組件。我沒有太多提到偏心和向心負荷,但向心負荷是指當你縮短肌肉時,通常是在舉重。而偏心動作則是指當你拉長肌肉時,通常是在下放重物。因此,如果你做引體向上,並把下巴拉過橫桿,或者做下巴上拉,那就是向心部分的努力。然後,當你放下自己,就進入了偏心部分。
    任何類型的抗阻力訓練中的偏心部分,無論是用於耐力還是力量訓練,都是導致肌肉酸痛的主要原因之一。有些人對此更敏感,但它確實造成了肌肉纖維的更多損傷。肌肉耐力的訓練不應包含任何含有主要偏心負荷的動作。因此,如果你要做俯臥撐,並不是說你要把胸部撞向地面。
    順便說一下,你的胸部應該在每次俯臥撐中觸碰地面。這才是真正的俯臥撐。這是關於向下推直到你的胸部觸地,然後再伸直的過程。這是正確的俯臥撐。而引體向上則是當你把下巴拉過橫桿。這兩者都不應包含緩慢的偏心或下降組件。
    如果你要用這些運動來訓練肌肉耐力,可以進行三到五組12到25次,甚至最多達到100次,每組之間休息30到180秒。但如果你想建立肌肉耐力,你要讓你的肌肉能夠在更長時間內進行更多的工作,這將是三到五組12到100次的訓練,主要進行向心動作,來自於上述的三到五組、休息30到180秒,是主要的向心運動。這不是一個緩慢的下降階段或重的下降階段。
    因此,這可能會是壺鈴擺動和類似的運動。正如我提到的等長訓練,例如平板支撐和靠牆坐也是有效的。
    現在,這裡有趣的是,它看起來並不像人們通常認為的耐力。然而,在優質的同行評審研究中已經顯示,肌肉耐力可以提高我們持續進行長時間、低強度耐力工作的能力。因此,這能支持長時間的跑步,支持長時間的游泳,同時也能同時增強姿勢力量和耐力。
    現在我們來簡單談談為什麼這是有效的科學依據。這讓我們回到了燃料利用與失敗的問題上。
    因此,如果我們說,好吧,假設你在做平板支撐,且你能夠保持平板支撐一分鐘、兩分鐘或三分鐘。在某一時刻,你會失敗。你不是因為心臟停止而失敗,也不是因為無法獲得足夠的氧氣因為你在做的過程中可以呼吸。你會因為局部肌肉的失敗而失敗,這意味著當你選擇進行這個三到五組的訓練方案來建立肌肉耐力時,主要是你會建立你的線粒體利用氧氣在局部產生能量的能力。這稱為線粒體呼吸,因為涉及氧氣的參與。
    這也將增加神經元控制肌肉的程度,並提供刺激讓肌肉收縮。但這是獨立於能力和力量的。因此,即使像三到五組的低組數和你進行重複運動且直到失敗,雖然看起來與力量和超級肥大訓練相似,但它是明顯不同的。
    這不會產生力量、超級肥大和能力。
    這主要是會培養出耐力的能力,持續收縮肌肉或重複收縮肌肉,對吧?如果你使用等長收縮,持續進行;或者如果你使用重複類型的運動,則是肌肉的收縮和伸展,基本上是向心和離心的部分。但要記住,離心部分要輕且相對快速,不要太快以至於受傷,但肯定不應故意放慢速度。
    我想先簡單休息一下,感謝我們的一個贊助商,Element。Element 是一種電解質飲料,包含你所需要的一切,而不包含不需要的成分。這意味著電解質、鈉、鎂和鉀的比例正確,但沒有糖。我們都應該知道,適當的水分補充對於最佳的腦部和身體功能是至關重要的。事實上,即使是輕微的脫水也能顯著降低你的認知和身體表現。
    同樣重要的是,你不僅要保持水分,還要在適當的比例中獲得足夠的電解質。喝一包 Element 溶解在水中可以讓你非常簡單地確保獲得足夠的水分和電解質。為了確保我獲得足夠的水分和電解質,我早上起床時會將一包 Element 溶解在約 16 到 32 盎司的水中,然後基本上是早上第一件事就喝下去。我還會在做任何體育運動時飲用溶解在水中的 Element,尤其是在炎熱的日子裡,當我大量出汗,流失水分和電解質時。
    Element 有很多不同好喝的口味。我喜歡西瓜口味。我喜歡覆盆子口味。我喜歡柑橘口味。基本上,我都喜歡。如果你想試試 Element,可以訪問 drinkelement.com/huberman,購買任何 Element 飲料混合包,便可以獲得一個 Element 試用包。再次提醒,Drink Element 的拼寫是 L-M-N-T。網站是 drinkelement.com/huberman 以索取免費試用包。
    今天的節目也由 Eight Sleep 提供贊助。Eight Sleep 製造具有冷卻、加熱和睡眠追踪功能的智能床墊罩。我之前在這個播客中談到,要獲得每晚足夠的高品質睡眠是非常重要的。確保睡眠環境的溫度正確,是確保良好睡眠的最佳方式之一。因為要進入深度睡眠並保持深度睡眠,身體溫度實際上需要下降大約一到三度。而為了醒來感覺精神煥發和充滿活力,身體溫度則需要上升大約一到三度。
    Eight Sleep 根據你的獨特需求自動調節床鋪的溫度。對我來說,我發現這非常有用,因為我喜歡在晚上開始時把床墊弄得非常涼爽,午夜時更冷,而在醒來的時候則是溫暖的。這樣能夠給我最多的慢波睡眠和快速眼動睡眠。我知道這一點,因為 Eight Sleep 有一個出色的睡眠追踪器,告訴我整晚的睡眠質量以及我獲得的各種睡眠類型。我已在 Eight Sleep 的床墊罩上睡了四年,這完全改變並提升了我的睡眠質量。他們最新的型號 Pod 4 Ultra 也有打鼾檢測,會自動將你的頭抬高幾度,以改善空氣流通,防止你打鼾。
    如果你決定嘗試 Eight Sleep,你有 30 天的時間在家中試用,如果不喜歡可以無條件退還。但我相信你會喜歡的。前往 8sleep.com/huberman,可以省下高達 350 美元的 Pod 4 Ultra。Eight Sleep 可以運送到包括墨西哥和阿聯酋在內的許多國家。再次提醒,網址是 8sleep.com/huberman,以便節省高達 350 美元的 Pod 4 Ultra。
    現在讓我們來談談耐力的另一個極端,即長時間耐力。這類型是人們通常想到耐力時所想到的。你在說的是長跑、長游泳、長騎自行車。好吧,這有多長呢?從 12 分鐘到幾個小時,甚至可能是一整天,也許是八或九小時的徒步旅行、跑步或騎自行車。有些人實際上在進行這些長期活動,例如馬拉松。你進入了規律的反覆努力,而你能夠持續這種努力主要依賴於運動的效率,依賴於你在運動本身、肌肉運動的產生以及來自不同來源的燃料利用之間尋找平衡。燃料利用來自神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺。
    那麼,我們不妨問一下,為什麼你會在長跑中失敗?為什麼你會放棄?你的心智會消耗更多或更少的能量,這取決於你有多少意志力,和你與自己有多少鬥爭以產生努力。我要強調的是,意志力在某種程度上是將資源專注於某事的能力,而這部分就是決定做或不做的決策。
    我並不是那種“一定要做”的心態。我認為有正確的時間和地點去訓練,但我也認為,反過來說,這會過度消耗資源,過多的反覆決策會消耗大量的認知能量,以至於在決定是否進行某次訓練時,所用的認知能量可能與實際訓練時的消耗相當。
    當你進行 30 分鐘的跑步時,你是在建立下一次重複那種表現的能力,同時更加高效,實際上燃燒更少的燃料。
    這聽起來可能有點反直覺,但每當你進行這樣的長距離跑步時,其實你是在增強線粒體的密度。這並不僅僅是有關線粒體的氧化和呼吸。你是在累積線粒體的密度。你實際上在增加你在特定運動量下可以產生的ATP數量。你變得更有效率。你進行同樣的活動時,總體的能量消耗更少。這正是這些長時間的慢速距離或持續的努力所要達到的真正目的。
    那麼,為什麼要進行這樣的長時間努力呢?你為什麼想這麼做?這對你有什麼好處?其實它做了一件非常重要的事,就是增強肌肉內的毛細血管床。這些就像小小的通道,像小溪和河口之間更大的動脈和靜脈。你可以真正地建立新的毛細血管。你可以在你的肌肉內創造新的小溪。 我剛才提到的12分鐘或更長時間穩定的努力類型非常有助於這一點,並且對於增加線粒體,即細胞內產生能量的元素,實際的肌肉細胞非常有用。原因是當血液抵達肌肉時,它帶有氧氣。肌肉會使用一些氧氣,然後一些去氧的血液會被送回心臟和肺部。現在,建立的毛細血管越多,提供給肌肉的氧氣就越多。因此,這種長時間的工作,與我們之前討論過的如平板支撐等肌肉耐力,真正是關於建立毛細血管系統和線粒體,即肌肉本身的能量利用系統。
    而最近幾年之中出現了兩種在這方面引起大量關注和興奮的訓練方式,有時稱為高強度間歇訓練。那麼我們先談談無氧耐力。從協議的角度來看,無氧耐力將是三到十二組訓練。這些訓練將根據你能以良好、安全的形式完成工作的速度來進行。所以可以是快的,也可以是慢的。隨著訓練的進行,你的重複次數可能會減少,也可能會加快,但通常會減少。
    那麼這些訓練是什麼樣的呢?記住長距離慢速訓練是一組,肌肉耐力是三到五組,而高強度無氧耐力則在三到十二組之間,工作與休息的比例在三比一到一比五之間。那麼,一個三比一的比例組將會是什麼樣子呢?比如說,30秒的高強度踩腳踏車,或是跑步,或是划船,這些只是例子,可以是在游泳池游泳或者做空氣深蹲等,如果你能管理這30秒的高強度訓練。10秒的休息是非常短暫的。因此三比一的 good example 就是在30秒內訓練,然後休息10秒。而極端的比例就是一比五,比如說20秒的高強度,100秒的休息。所以你做20秒的訓練,然後休息100秒。
    現在讓我們看看三比一的比例。如果你要在腳踏車上進行30秒的高強度踩踏,然後休息10秒,比如使用這種所謂的攻擊自行車。然後你在10秒後再重複。你可能能做一組、兩組、三組、四組,甚至多達12組。如果你真的在良好的狀態下,你就能完成這些,因為腳踏車的踩踏並不需要太多的技巧。如果你做得不正確,比如說你的手肘稍微外展,那麼受傷的可能性非常小,除非是非常極端的情況。
    好吧,但如果用壺鈴來進行同樣的動作,比如30秒高強度踩踏、10秒休息,第一組可能會保持良好的形式。第二組還會相當不錯,但假如你進入第五、第六組時,仍然是30秒高強度,10秒休息,那麼你的重複動作的質量可能會顯著下降,這樣就提高了受傷的可能性。如果動作的質量很重要。因此,也許這是用重量進行的深蹲。所以你會做20秒的高強度,然後休息100秒。你將會發現,儘管是20秒的高強度努力,隨後是100秒的長時間休息,這將讓你能在安全的情況下隨著時間的推移進行更多的高質量重複動作。
    於是你可能會做三組20秒的高強度努力,然後休息100秒。然後重複20秒的高強度努力,再休息100秒,20秒的努力,再休息100秒。你每週可能做兩次。這樣做你會增強我們所稱的無氧耐力。無氧耐力將會使你的體系達到超過100% 的最大攝氧量,讓你的心率升得非常高,並且最大化你的氧氣利用系統。這將會對你在訓練中的疲勞產生影響,而這種疲勞會引發適應。
    那麼,究竟是什麼樣的適應呢?其實它會促進線粒體呼吸,也就是你的線粒體更有效地利用氧氣來產生更多的能量,因為你在極限使用著氧氣,實際上你已經達到了最大攝氧量,並且超過了你的VO2最大攝氧量,你正在達到一個臨界點,這樣的話你就會最大化你在系統內的氧氣使用。一個適應的結果是你的線粒體會發生變化,使它們能夠使用更多的氧氣。
    你也會增加毛細血管床,但不會像增加肌肉神經參與程度那麼多。通常,當我們開始感到疲勞、精疲力竭,並且呼吸急促時,身體的各個系統是相連的,並且這也有心理層面的因素,一種激勵的成分。在進行第三組、第四組或第六組,無論是20秒鍛鍊、100秒休息,還是30秒鍛鍊、10秒休息,終究會有一種想要停止的感覺。透過努力堅持並安全地重複另一組,你實際上是在訓練神經元能夠獲取更多的能量,將其實質轉化為ATP,因而讓肌肉能夠獲取更多的能量和ATP。適應的關鍵在於線粒體使用氧氣的能力。這對於其他類型的運動有著巨大的延伸效果。在競技運動或團隊運動中,尤其是需要短跑的活動中,例如在場上需要運球並射門;或者在打網球時,當進行長時間的對打,突然有人開始給你施壓,這時你必須使出最大的努力跑到網前將球擊過去,這類情況都能從這種訓練中受益。
    有許多地方都能延續這類訓練的效果,但它確實支持耐力訓練。這是關於肌肉耐力的問題,這些肌肉在短期內產生大量力量的能力,還要能夠重複進行。這是你該理解的方式。這與最大力量不同。儘管它感覺像是在發揮最大努力,但這與增強肌肉的力量和速度並不相同,這是截然不同的訓練方式。因此,關鍵元素再次是你將呼吸和氧氣利用率提高到超過你的最大值。它並不是完全達到失敗狀態,但你確實將系統推到了你準備不了解的另一組的程度。然而,還是開始進行了另一組。心理上你未必做好準備。
    我想強調第四種訓練方案,即高強度有氧訓練。高強度間歇訓練(HIIT)有這兩種形式:無氧和有氧。你剛剛聽到了無氧部分。高強度有氧訓練也涉及大約三到十二組。一對一的比率對於建立大多數能量系統來說是非常有效的。你還記得我們有神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺。比率一對一的情況下,或許你跑一英里,無論這需要多長時間。假設你跑第一英里的時間是七分鐘,然後休息七分鐘,再跑一英里,可能需要八分鐘,然後休息八分鐘。你持續這樣做,一共完成四英里的運動,也就是說四英里的跑步運動。你可以逐漸增加這個訓練強度。許多人發現,透過這類訓練,他們能夠參加半程馬拉松或馬拉松,儘管在比賽之前,他們從未真正跑過半程馬拉松或馬拉松。
    這聽起來似乎不可思議。怎麼可能是跑一英里,然後休息,再跑一英里,再休息相同時間,這樣七英里卻能讓你連續跑13英里或26英里呢?這是因為它改善了肌肉中的ATP和線粒體功能。它使血液能夠向肌肉和腦部輸送更多的氧氣。它還允許你的心臟整體上提供更多的氧氣,並增強了巨大的肺活量。
    那麼這樣的訓練怎樣實施?何時應該進行?這實際上是針對這些訓練提問的問題:在八到十二分鐘內能完成多少工作,然後休息,然後重複。你可以在八到十二分鐘內做多少訓練工作,然後休息,再重複幾次?這是相當激烈的,所以如果你沒有其他活動,可能每週只想進行兩到三次。
    我們擁有四種耐力訓練,包括肌肉耐力、長時間耐力、高強度間歇訓練的兩種類型:無氧和有氧。而最後這種有氧訓練似乎在一對一的比率下效果最好。
    那麼你該如何利用這些訓練,它們實際上在做什麼?讓我們談談心臟、肺和氧氣,因為這是我們大家都能受益於的理解。大腦和心臟可能是你需要在生活中照顧的兩個最重要的系統。維持或增強大腦功能和心血管功能顯然對於健康和長壽在短期和長期都是關鍵的。而我今天討論的這些訓練方法已經多次證明對增強思維的力量非常有用。是的,我也會談到這對大腦和身體的健康。
    我想稍作休息,並感謝我們的贊助商Function。我最近成為Function的一名會員,因為我在尋找最全面的實驗室檢測方案。儘管我一直非常喜歡血液檢測,但我真的想找到一個更深入的計劃,來分析我的血液、尿液和唾液,以更全面地了解我的心臟健康、激素狀況、免疫調節狀況、代謝功能、維生素和礦物質狀況,以及其他影響我整體健康和活力的重要領域。Function不僅提供100多項對身體和心理健康至關重要的生物標誌物的檢測,還會分析這些結果並提供頂尖醫生的見解。
    例如,在我第一次與 Function 的測試中,我發現自己的血液中汞的水平偏高。Function 不僅幫助我檢測到這一點,還提供了減少汞水平的最佳建議,包括減少吞拿魚的攝取。坦白說,那時我吃了很多吞拿魚,同時也努力攝取更多的深綠色蔬菜,並補充 NAC 和乙酰半胱氨酸,這兩者都有助於支持穀胱甘肽的生成和排毒。順便提一下,這確實有效。我的汞水平現在已經穩定在健康範圍內。像這樣全面的實驗室檢測對健康至關重要,因為我們血液和身體的其他地方有許多事情在進行,而沒有高品質的血液和尿液測試,我們是無法檢測到的。雖然我努力了很多年想要進行這些檢測,但這一直非常複雜,坦白說,也相當昂貴。Function 大大簡化了這一切,並使其變得非常實惠。我對 Function 的印象非常深刻,因此決定加入他們的科學顧問委員會,我也很高興他們贊助這個播客。如果你想試試 Function,可以訪問 functionhealth.com/huberman。在這一週,即2025 年 4 月 14 日至 4 月 20 日,Function 正在為前 1,000 名註冊 Function 會員的人提供 100 美元的抵用金。要獲取這 100 美元的抵用金,請在結帳時使用優惠碼 Huberman100。訪問 functionhealth.com/huberman 了解更多信息並開始使用。
    那麼讓我們來談談在這些不同形式的訓練中,您的大腦和身體發生的有益適應。如果你的呼吸急促,心臟也在劇烈跳動,那這肯定是在高強度無氧和有氧訓練中,因為你正在接近你的 VO2 最大值,而在高強度的無氧訓練中,你則超過了你的 VO2 最大值。將要發生的事是,當然,隨著你的心跳加速,你的血液循環速度也會加快。肌肉中的氧氣利用率將會提高。隨著時間的推移,不久之後,那些毛細血管床開始擴張時,因為返回心臟的血液量增加,當你進行這些非常劇烈的努力時,重複進行,返回心臟的血液量實際上會對心臟的某一肌肉壁造成偏心負荷。因此你的心臟是肌肉,屬於心臟肌肉。我們有附著在骨骼上的骨骼肌,還有心臟肌肉,就是我們的心臟。當因為你的肌肉和神經所做的額外工作,更多的血液返回心臟時,這實際上會造成一種偏心負荷,推動左側牆壁。我意識到我在這裡沒有使用嚴格的解剖學,但我不想深入討論心臟的結構特徵。但是左心室基本上是被猛撞回來,然後不得不反向推回,形成一種心臟肌肉的偏心負荷,隨著更多的血液返回心臟,肌肉變厚。這有一個適應,即心臟肌肉實際上變得更強大,因此每次搏動每次收縮能夠泵送更多的血液。當它這樣做時,因為血液含有葡萄糖、氧氣及其他物質,它能夠提供更多的燃料給你的肌肉,這使你能在單位時間內進行更多的工作。如果你進行這種高強度的訓練,當你的心臟跳動得非常快,像我之前描述的一對一比例的英里跑重複,過不久你的心臟每次的搏動量會真正增加。因此,作為結果,你能夠為你的肌肉和大腦提供更多的燃料。你的認知功能會改善。這一點一次又一次地被證明,因為血管系統,字面上說,腦內的毛細血管床、海馬體、支持記憶的區域,還有支持呼吸、專注和努力的腦區也會隨之增長。
    現在,舉重訓練在大腦功能上也有一些積極的影響。然而,很明顯,你現在應該直覺地理解為什麼那種標準的力量和肌肉增長類型的鍛煉不會激活血氧化和心臟搏出量的增加,而今天我所講的訓練類型卻會。它只是沒有相同的正面效果。另一個在耐力型工作中非常重要的考慮因素是水分補充。我認為水分對於所有形式的體力工作和運動都很重要,不僅僅是耐力。通常,我們每小時的運動會失去一到五磅的水分。這會有很大的變化。這會隨著天氣而變化。這也會隨著強度而變化,如果是在熱天高強度運動時,可能更接近五磅。因此,如果你考慮你的體重(以磅為單位),一旦你失去約一到四個百分比的體重水分,你將經歷約 20% 到 30% 的工作能力減少,在進行任何形式的努力(力量、耐力等)方面的能力也會下降。你也會體驗到在思考和執行智力操作方面能力的顯著下降。因此,水分補充是關鍵。鉀、鈉和鎂也是非常重要的。是的,確實如此。飲用過多的水確實可能會致命,因為這會迫使你,如果你喝太多的水,你將排泄過多的電解質,而你的大腦將關閉。你的心臟實際上會停止正常運作。因此,你也不想極端地過量飲水。 一個簡單的公式,我稱之為 Galpin 方程式,就是你的體重(以磅為單位)除以 30。
    這就是你每15分鐘運動應該飲用的盎司數量。
    現在,如果你出汗很多,你可能需要更多。
    如果你已經非常充分地補充水分,你可能需要的就會少一些,但這是一個開始的好準則。
    這有助於讓你理解水分補充與表現之間的關係。
    今天我們沒有深入討論補充劑。
    在之前的幾集裡,我討論了磷酸肌酸系統以及補充肌酸。
    我們還談到了beta alanine,適用於中等時長的運動。
    你知道,真正被證明能顯著改善耐力運動的只有幾種補充劑,涵蓋了我今天描述的四種耐力運動。
    這些補充劑本質上有兩種形式。
    一種是興奮劑。
    像咖啡因這樣的物質肯定能改善耐力運動和力量輸出。
    某些形式的鎂,特別是蘋果酸鎂(magnesium malate),已被證明在減少或緩解延遲性肌肉疼痛方面有幫助。
    這種類型的鎂與有助於促進睡眠的鎂是顯著不同的,後者包括甘氨酸鎂和蘋果酸鎂等。
    總的來說,今天我們主要集中在行為工具上。
    我希望我能夠向你們展示,耐力不僅僅是一種能力。
    它不僅僅是能夠進行不同類型的長時間運動。
    還有這種與神經元運作方式相關的心理成分。
    此外,還有不同形式的耐力,肌肉耐力,這種耐力的失敗是由於肌肉及其能量利用和支配這些肌肉的神經所致,而不是因為氧氣或血液供應的失敗。
    而長時間的運動則更多地關於保持在你的最大攝氧量(VO2 max)以下,以及在超過12分鐘的運動時間內保持效率的能力。
    一組訓練,正如他們所說的,可能是12分鐘到幾個小時。
    高強度訓練則會利用其他燃料來源和機制,正如我們今天所學的。
    最後但同樣重要的是,感謝你對科學的興趣。

    In this Huberman Lab Essentials episode, I explain how to build endurance and describe targeted protocols to enhance different types of endurance.

    I discuss how endurance—the ability to sustain effort—requires the coordination of physical and mental systems driven by energy availability, brain willpower, and specific training adaptations in the muscles, heart, lungs and neurons. I explain conditioning protocols designed to enhance four types of endurance, from long-duration steady state to muscular endurance and high-intensity intervals, and how each training style triggers unique adaptations in the body and brain, such as improved mitochondrial function and oxygen utilization. Additionally, I highlight the crucial role of hydration and electrolytes, which are essential for neural function and influence the brain’s willpower to sustain effort.

    Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com.

    Thank you to our sponsors

    AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman

    LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman

    Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman

    Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman

    Follow Huberman Lab

    Timestamps

    00:00:00 Huberman Lab Essentials; Build Endurance

    00:00:50 Energy Sources, ATP, Oxygen

    00:04:14 Neurons & Willpower, Glucose & Electrolytes

    00:09:19 Heart, Lungs; Physiology & Performance Limiting Factors

    00:10:35 Sponsor: AG1

    00:12:30 Muscular Endurance, Protocol, Concentric Movements, Mitochondria

    00:19:10 Sponsors: LMNT & Eight Sleep

    00:22:00 Long-Duration Endurance, Efficiency, Mitochondria, Capillaries

    00:25:54 High-Intensity Interval Training (HIIT), Anaerobic Endurance, Protocol

    00:32:33 High-Intensity Aerobic Endurance, Adaptations

    00:35:30 Sponsor: Function

    00:37:26 Brain & Body Adaptations, Heart

    00:40:40 Hydration, Tool: Galpin Equation

    00:42:21 Supplements, Stimulants, Magnesium Malate

    00:43:11 Recap & Key Takeaways

    Disclaimer & Disclosures

  • Top Neuroscientist: Anxiety Is A Predictive Error In The Brain! Heres The Proof Your Brain Is Faking Trauma! Your Whole Life Might Be A Prediction!

    中文
    Tiếng Việt
    AI transcript
    0:00:05 There are these experiments where they trained people to experience anxiety, but as determination,
    0:00:10 because exactly the same physical state could be experienced completely different.
    0:00:14 And what they discovered is that at first it’s really hard, but you practice, practice, practice,
    0:00:18 and then eventually becomes really automatic. So the first thing to understand is that…
    0:00:21 Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett is a world-leading neuroscientist.
    0:00:26 Her groundbreaking research reveals that emotions like anxiety and trauma are built by the brain.
    0:00:28 And we have the power to control them.
    0:00:34 The story is that you’re born with these innate emotion circuits, but you’re not born with the ability to control them.
    0:00:34 That’s false.
    0:00:39 Really what’s happening is that your brain is not reacting, it’s predicting.
    0:00:46 And every action you take, every emotion you have is a combination of the remembered past, including any trauma.
    0:00:52 And so you don’t have a sense of agency about it because it happens really automatically, faster than you can blink your eyes.
    0:00:56 How does this change how we should treat trauma?
    0:01:03 Sometimes in life, you are responsible for changing something, not because you’re to blame, but because you’re the only person who can.
    0:01:09 I mean, I had a daughter who was clinically depressed, was getting D’s in school, she wasn’t sleeping, she was miserable.
    0:01:14 At first she was so resistant, but then she made the decision that she wanted to be helped.
    0:01:15 And did she recover?
    0:01:16 Yes, she did.
    0:01:25 So if you want to change who you are, what you feel, understanding these basic operating principles is the key to living a meaningful life.
    0:01:28 So what is step one to being able to make that change?
    0:01:34 Quick one before we get back to this episode, just give me 30 seconds of your time.
    0:01:36 Two things I wanted to say.
    0:01:40 The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.
    0:01:46 It means the world to all of us and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn’t have imagined getting to this place.
    0:01:50 But secondly, it’s a dream where we feel like we’re only just getting started.
    0:01:58 And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.
    0:01:59 Here’s a promise I’m going to make to you.
    0:02:05 I’m going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future.
    0:02:11 We’re going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to and we’re going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
    0:02:12 Thank you.
    0:02:13 Thank you so much.
    0:02:14 Back to the episode.
    0:02:25 Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett, you have a really remarkable, twisting career journey.
    0:02:35 It’s almost quite difficult to encapsulate in a particular mission or a particular summary of the journey you’ve been on and the twists and turns you’ve taken.
    0:02:44 But if I were to ask you now what mission you’re on with the work that you’re currently doing, are you able to summarize that?
    0:02:53 My goal is, as a science communicator, is to try to take really complicated science and present it in a way that people can use.
    0:02:57 You know, maybe they use it to entertain their friends at a dinner party.
    0:03:03 Maybe they use it to help their kid who’s, you know, struggling with depression.
    0:03:06 That was certainly, in my case, something that I had to deal with.
    0:03:14 Maybe they’re using it to improve their workplace or improve the productivity of their peeps or whatever.
    0:03:19 The point being that that’s ultimately, that’s what science is for.
    0:03:22 It’s for, you know, living a better life.
    0:03:30 And average, everyday people without PhDs can do that if they have the right information.
    0:03:47 I’m probably attempting to understand how it is that a brain like ours, that is attached to a body like ours, that is pickled in a world like ours, produces a mind.
    0:03:48 What is it?
    0:03:59 What is happening that allows you to have thoughts and feelings and memories and actions?
    0:04:08 And somebody from another country, another culture, also has a mental life which looks nothing like yours.
    0:04:29 How is it that the same kind of brain plan with the same general kind of body plan can produce such different types of minds when they are, when those brains are wired, in a sense, finish wiring themselves in cultural and physical contexts that are so widely different?
    0:04:47 When you just talked about your pursuit of understanding how a brain like ours creates the mind and the reality that we have, if I’m able to understand all of that, as many people who read your book about the brain and emotions were able to understand, what is it that it offers me in my everyday life?
    0:04:51 Oh my God, it offers you the opportunity to have more agency in your life.
    0:04:52 What does that mean?
    0:04:54 It means you have more choice.
    0:04:55 It means you have more control.
    0:04:58 It means that you can architect your life.
    0:05:00 I mean, you can’t control everything that happens to you.
    0:05:07 You can’t control every moment of feeling, but you have more control than you probably think you do.
    0:05:13 Everybody has more control over what they feel and what they do than they think they do.
    0:05:18 That control doesn’t look the way we expect it to.
    0:05:23 It’s much harder to harness than we would like it to be.
    0:05:33 Some people have more opportunities for that control than other people do, but everybody has the opportunity to have more control.
    0:05:40 And, of course, the flip side is also more responsibility for the way they live their lives.
    0:05:43 And I think that’s a really good thing.
    0:05:52 And I think it’s a really good thing now when, you know, world events are swirling around you and you feel like, you know, you’re just being buffeted around.
    0:06:04 And even within that craziness, there are opportunities to be more of an architect of your own experience and your own life.
    0:06:11 I think a lot of people find that optimistic and helpful.
    0:06:17 Yeah, because life can feel like we are a puppet and we are just responding to what happens around us.
    0:06:19 And if it rains outside, then we’re sad.
    0:06:22 If a person sends us a message, then we’re annoyed.
    0:06:27 And that we’re just these sort of reactive creatures reacting to whatever happens around us.
    0:06:34 But you’re telling me that if I have a greater understanding of the brain and how it works and emotions, then I can seize back some of that control and live a more intentional life.
    0:06:35 Yes, exactly.
    0:06:49 And I think for me, I mean, I started my career studying the nature of emotion, but really it became a flashlight into understanding how a brain works.
    0:06:51 Why do we even have a brain?
    0:06:53 It’s a very expensive organ.
    0:07:00 That piece of meat between your ears is the most expensive, metabolically the most expensive organ you have.
    0:07:03 So what’s it good for?
    0:07:04 What’s its most basic function?
    0:07:08 How does it work in relation to the body?
    0:07:15 I think that certainly on your show, you’ve had a number of people who talk about the relationship between the brain and the body in some way.
    0:07:24 But I think scientists for a long time forgot or ignored the fact that the brain is attached to a body, right?
    0:07:26 Because we don’t feel all the drama.
    0:07:31 Like right now, in you, in me, in all of our listeners, right?
    0:07:34 We all have this, like, drama going on.
    0:07:40 It’s really quite intense, and there’s a lot of going on, and none of us are aware of it, I hope.
    0:07:42 If you are aware of it, I’m really sorry.
    0:07:46 It probably means that something is, you know, you’re not feeling well today.
    0:07:54 But it’s a good thing that we’re not aware of what’s going on inside our own bodies most of the time, because we’d never pay attention to anything outside our own skin again, right?
    0:08:02 But the problem is that in science, it often begins with starting with your own subjective experience and then trying to formalize that.
    0:08:05 And, I mean, if you look at any science, physics is like that, too.
    0:08:10 You just have to go back several hundred years or maybe a little longer to see it.
    0:08:20 And so it turns out that a lot of what you experience as properties of the world, of the way the world is, really is very rooted in your brain’s regulation of your body.
    0:08:31 And so I guess I’m – I started with emotion, but it really became a much larger project to try to understand, well, what is a brain?
    0:08:32 How is it structured?
    0:08:34 How did it evolve?
    0:08:35 How does it work?
    0:08:37 What’s its most basic function?
    0:08:44 And where do thoughts and feelings and actions, perceptions, what role do they play in that function?
    0:08:47 So it’s a bit flipping the question, right?
    0:08:50 Most people start with, what is an emotion?
    0:08:51 What is a thought?
    0:08:52 What is a memory?
    0:08:59 They define it, and then they go looking for its physical basis in the brain or in the body.
    0:09:02 That’s a pretty bankrupt perspective.
    0:09:06 I mean, after a hundred years, there weren’t really good answers.
    0:09:15 So we flipped it around and we said, okay, well, given that we have the kind of brain we do, what can it do?
    0:09:17 What does it do?
    0:09:21 And in its normal functioning, how does it produce mental events?
    0:09:31 That in our culture, our thoughts and feelings and perceptions and actions, in other cultures, there are different conglomerations of features, right?
    0:09:35 So for us, a thought and a thought and a feeling are super distinct.
    0:09:36 We experience them as very separate.
    0:09:37 We experience them as very separate.
    0:09:48 In fact, really since the time of Plato, we’ve had this kind of narrative where, you know, the mind or the brain is a battleground between your thoughts and your feelings, right?
    0:09:59 In for control of your actions, for control of your actions, if your thoughts win, you are a rational creature, you are a healthy creature, you are a moral creature.
    0:10:11 If your instincts and your emotions win, you know, your inner beast, then you are irresponsible, you are childish, you are immoral, you are mentally ill.
    0:10:13 That’s the narrative that we work in.
    0:10:18 In some cultures, thoughts and feelings are not separate.
    0:10:24 They are really, it’s not that you have them at the same time, it’s that they are one thing.
    0:10:28 They are features of the same mental event.
    0:10:33 In some cultures, your body and your mind are not separate.
    0:10:39 There are no separate experiences for a physical sensation versus a mental feeling.
    0:10:41 They are really one thing.
    0:10:48 So our minds are not the human nature, it’s just one human nature, and there are other human natures too.
    0:11:03 And we have to figure out how general brain plan, a general body plan for a neurotypical human, produces such wide variation depending on the cultural context in which it grows.
    0:11:13 As it relates to neuroscience and understanding the brain and the way that we create reality, was there a eureka moment for you where you realized that most of us have it wrong?
    0:11:18 Or that there’s an underlying misconception about the way that our brain creates our reality?
    0:11:25 I would say, yeah, sure, there was a eureka moment, but it was a long, slow burn.
    0:11:28 When I was a graduate student, I wasn’t studying emotion.
    0:11:32 I was studying the self.
    0:11:34 How do you think about yourself?
    0:11:37 What is your self-esteem like?
    0:11:39 How do you conceive of yourself?
    0:11:43 This is an important topic in psychology.
    0:11:53 And I was measuring emotion as an outcome variable, and the measurements weren’t, the measures weren’t working.
    0:12:02 And I thought, well, I need to be able to just literally, objectively measure when someone is angry or when they’re sad or when they’re happy.
    0:12:05 I don’t want to have to ask them, because they could be wrong.
    0:12:12 And in that phrasing of the question, there’s a presumption, right, that there is an objective state called anger,
    0:12:19 that generally most instances of anger will look the same regardless of person and context.
    0:12:28 And I very quickly realized that there are no essences that anybody’s been able to discover, right?
    0:12:39 So recently, in the last couple of years, researchers did a meta-analysis, which is a big statistical summary of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of experiments.
    0:12:45 And what they discovered is that, and this is just in urban cultures, right?
    0:12:47 We’re not even talking about remote cultures now.
    0:12:53 Just in urban cultures, when someone is angry, people scowl about 35% of the time when they’re angry.
    0:12:56 A scowl is like a…
    0:12:58 Like a scowl, like a…
    0:13:02 Right, like, you know, you knit your eyebrows, you frown, right?
    0:13:03 Okay.
    0:13:09 But that means 65% of the time when people are angry, they’re doing something else that’s meaningful with their face.
    0:13:16 And half the time when people scowl, they’re not angry, they’re feeling something else.
    0:13:18 They could be concentrating really hard.
    0:13:21 You could have just told them a bad joke.
    0:13:24 They could have a bad bout of gas.
    0:13:27 You know, a scowl is not the expression of anger.
    0:13:32 It is an expression of anger in some contexts.
    0:13:36 And it’s also an expression of other states in other contexts.
    0:13:47 So what this means is that, you know, there’s no really strongly reliable expression for anger that is specific to anger.
    0:13:52 And the same is true for every other emotion that’s ever been studied.
    0:13:56 It’s really clear that you’re in anger or sadness or pick an emotion.
    0:13:59 You know, your heart rate can go up, it can go down, it can stay the same.
    0:14:02 Your blood pressure can go up, it can go down, it can stay the same.
    0:14:10 The physiology that is occurring in your body is related to your brain’s preparation for particular behaviors.
    0:14:12 So let’s start with that then.
    0:14:16 So the predictive brain is this idea that I only pretty much know from you.
    0:14:17 I’d never heard it before.
    0:14:21 When we say the predictive brain, what does that mean?
    0:14:22 And what does it not mean?
    0:14:28 So when you are living your everyday life.
    0:14:28 Yeah.
    0:14:29 Like right now.
    0:14:30 Like right now.
    0:14:39 So right now, I’m guessing that I’m saying things to you and you’re perceiving what I’m saying and then you’re reacting to it.
    0:14:40 That’s how it feels to you, right?
    0:14:41 Yes.
    0:14:41 Okay.
    0:14:43 And that’s how it feels to me too.
    0:14:46 So we sense and then we react.
    0:14:51 That’s the way most people experience themselves in the world.
    0:14:54 That’s not actually what’s happening under the hood.
    0:15:01 Really what’s happening is that the brain, your brain is not reacting, it’s predicting.
    0:15:25 And what that means is if we were to stop time right now, just freeze time, your brain would be in a state and it would be remembering past experiences that are similar to this state as a way of predicting what to do next.
    0:15:26 Like literally in the next moment.
    0:15:28 Should your eyes move?
    0:15:31 Should your heart rate go up?
    0:15:32 Should your breathing change?
    0:15:36 Should your blood vessels dilate or should they constrict?
    0:15:39 Should you prepare to stand?
    0:15:40 Right?
    0:16:04 So under the hood, your brain is predicting what movements it should engage in next.
    0:16:09 And as a consequence, what you will experience because of those movements.
    0:16:14 So you act first and then you sense.
    0:16:17 You don’t sense and then react.
    0:16:21 You predict action and then you sense.
    0:16:31 So give me an example which brings this to light of how my brain is predicting and then taking action.
    0:16:31 Okay.
    0:16:37 So right now you and I are having a conversation and I’m speaking and you’re listening.
    0:17:02 And what’s really happening in your brain is that based on many gazillion repetitions of listening to language, your brain is predicting, literally predicting every single word that will come out of my.
    0:17:06 Yeah.
    0:17:06 Okay.
    0:17:16 And how surprising would it have been if I didn’t say mouth, I said some other orifice of my body that words were coming out of.
    0:17:20 That would have been pretty surprising because your brain is predicting that.
    0:17:27 Your brain is always predicting and it’s correcting those predictions when they’re incorrect.
    0:17:37 And, you know, I have this video that I often show when I’m giving a talk to scientists or to civilians.
    0:17:50 I’m giving a talk and it creates a situation where they can predict something and they can feel that a prediction is not just this abstract kind of thought.
    0:18:01 Thought it’s your brain is literally changing the firing of its own sensory neurons to anticipate incoming sensations.
    0:18:09 So you start to feel these sensations before the signals actually arrive for you to perceive them.
    0:18:13 You start to have the experience before the world gives you those signals.
    0:18:18 I’ve read, I think it was in your book, but it might have been elsewhere about the example of being thirsty.
    0:18:31 So when you drink, so say you’re super thirsty and you drink a big glass of water, when do you stop being thirsty?
    0:18:32 Almost immediately.
    0:18:46 But actually it takes 20 minutes for that water to be absorbed into your bloodstream and make its way to the brain to tell the brain that you are no longer in need of fluid.
    0:19:01 Because across millions of opportunities, you have learned that certain movements now and certain sensory signals now will result in that mental state.
    0:19:03 Or here’s another example.
    0:19:06 So right now, keep your eyes on me.
    0:19:07 You’re looking right at me.
    0:19:17 And in your mind’s eye, I want you to imagine a Macintosh apple, like not a computer, but like an actual piece of fruit.
    0:19:17 Okay.
    0:19:18 Can you do it?
    0:19:19 Yeah.
    0:19:19 Can you see it?
    0:19:20 Yeah.
    0:19:22 What color is it?
    0:19:22 Green.
    0:19:23 Okay.
    0:19:24 Does it have any red?
    0:19:25 No.
    0:19:26 Okay.
    0:19:28 So it’s a Granny Smith apple.
    0:19:28 Yeah.
    0:19:29 Okay.
    0:19:30 What does it taste like?
    0:19:33 Like imagine, imagine grabbing it.
    0:19:34 Yeah.
    0:19:35 Biting into it.
    0:19:37 Hearing the crunch of the apple.
    0:19:39 What does it taste like?
    0:19:40 It’s like sweet.
    0:19:42 It’s like a little tart maybe?
    0:19:43 Yeah, yeah.
    0:19:43 Yeah.
    0:19:44 Is it juicy?
    0:19:44 It’s very juicy.
    0:19:45 Yeah.
    0:19:59 So if I were imaging your brain right now, what I would see is I would see changes in the signal that is related to neural activity in your visual cortex, even though there is no apple in front of you.
    0:20:07 And I would see a change in activity in your auditory cortex, even though you didn’t really hear the crunch.
    0:20:09 My mouth was watering as well.
    0:20:10 And your mouth is watering.
    0:20:24 And in fact, every time you sit down for a meal, your brain directs your saliva glands to produce more saliva to prepare you to eat and digest the food.
    0:20:29 So that usually happens in advance of even sitting down to a meal.
    0:20:31 That is all prediction.
    0:20:37 That’s all of that is your brain preparing itself for what’s coming.
    0:20:47 Because predicting and correcting is a much more efficient way to run a nervous system, really any system, than reacting to the world.
    0:20:48 Here’s another example.
    0:20:49 Do you drink coffee?
    0:20:50 Yes.
    0:20:51 Okay.
    0:20:53 Do you drink coffee every day at the same time?
    0:20:55 Usually, yeah.
    0:20:55 Okay.
    0:21:00 And are you one of these people that if you miss having coffee at that time, you get a headache?
    0:21:02 I mean, it’s happened before.
    0:21:03 Yes.
    0:21:07 Well, I used to be a person who drank a lot of coffee.
    0:21:11 And I love coffee, but I don’t drink it anymore.
    0:21:12 But I loved it.
    0:21:14 And I drank it always at the same time every day.
    0:21:20 And if I didn’t drink it, I would get, at that time of day, I would get a massive headache.
    0:21:34 And the reason why, and this is true really of every medicine you take, everything which, anything which affects your physiology, if you do it on a regular basis, your brain will come to expect it.
    0:21:44 And what that means, come to expect it, is that coffee has chemicals in it that will constrict your blood vessels everywhere.
    0:21:53 But in the brain, the brain is attempting to keep the blood flow pretty constant and even.
    0:22:12 And so if every day at 8 o’clock in the morning, you’re drinking something that’s going to constrict your blood vessels, then at 7.55 approximately, I don’t know the exact timing, but a little bit before 8, your brain will dilate the blood vessels.
    0:22:16 In preparation for that constriction, so they remain constant.
    0:22:23 And if you don’t drink that substance, then you have this big dilation and you get a very, very bad headache.
    0:22:32 I was just wondering then about, as you were talking, I thought you were going to talk about how sometimes when I set an alarm, I seem to wake up like five minutes before the alarm.
    0:22:33 Yeah, sure.
    0:22:34 That’s an example.
    0:22:35 Here’s another example.
    0:22:36 Exercise.
    0:22:44 If you want to play tennis better, if you want to run a faster mile, what do you do?
    0:22:45 Train.
    0:22:46 Train.
    0:22:49 And you do the same thing over and over and over and over again.
    0:22:51 And you get better and faster.
    0:22:53 And you burn fewer calories.
    0:22:54 You get more efficient.
    0:22:54 Why?
    0:22:56 Because your brain is predicting really well.
    0:22:59 That’s what muscle memory is.
    0:23:01 It’s not literally a memory in your muscles.
    0:23:03 It’s a memory in your brain.
    0:23:05 Your brain is controlling your muscles.
    0:23:16 And so if you practice the same set of movements over and over and over again, you just get really efficient at them because your brain is able to predict better.
    0:23:33 Now, if you’re somebody who’s exercising because you want to become healthier or you want to lose weight or you, right, you don’t want to practice the same exercise over and over and over again because you will be burning fewer calories because you’re being efficient.
    0:23:36 That’s the goal, right?
    0:23:47 If somebody’s calling out to you every 30 seconds, a different set of movements and you can’t predict what they are, then your brain will make a prediction.
    0:23:48 It’ll be wrong.
    0:23:49 You’ll have to adjust.
    0:23:57 And so you end up burning more calories and you end up throwing yourself out of balance, which we call allostasis.
    0:24:01 So you become dysregulated and then your brain has to work to get itself back in again.
    0:24:04 And so that’s a different kind of workout.
    0:24:11 These two different kinds of workouts are completely predicated on the fact that sometimes you want to be able to predict better.
    0:24:18 Sometimes you want to be able to disrupt yourself and get back into the pocket quickly, right?
    0:24:27 So basically you’re learning how to take in prediction error, signals you didn’t predict, and adjust to them.
    0:24:37 What does this say about the nature of trauma and other mental health illnesses like depression, anxiety, etc?
    0:24:40 Because is this a misfiring of my predictions?
    0:24:46 I say this because predictions reliant on something happening in the past and forming a pattern, like a pattern recognition system.
    0:24:52 So if I grew up and there were certain patterns that are now not the case.
    0:24:55 So if I grew up and every time a man walked into the room, he hit me.
    0:25:01 And now when a man walks into the room and I’m 35 years old, I’m getting that same sort of prediction in my brain.
    0:25:03 So I’ve got a fear of men, for example.
    0:25:12 Does this somewhat explain childhood trauma and why it’s so hard to shake and why as adults we can sometimes have dysfunctional lives?
    0:25:16 I would say as a general principle, yes.
    0:25:21 There are a lot of, you know, the devil is in the details, right?
    0:25:22 But yeah, sure.
    0:25:28 So trauma is not something that happens in the world to you.
    0:25:34 Everything you experience is a combination of the remembered past and the sensory present.
    0:25:37 So there could be an adverse event that occurs.
    0:25:38 You’re in an earthquake.
    0:25:41 Someone dies who’s close to you.
    0:25:43 Something bad happens to you.
    0:25:45 Someone hurts you in some way.
    0:25:50 There could be an adverse event that is not traumatic to you.
    0:25:58 Because you’re not using past experiences to make sense of it as a trauma.
    0:26:14 On the other hand, something that is, could be like an everyday experience to somebody else, to you, it links to a set of memories that are very traumatic.
    0:26:15 We’re very traumatic.
    0:26:16 Those events were very traumatic.
    0:26:18 And so to you, it is a trauma.
    0:26:22 So trauma is not an objective thing in the world.
    0:26:24 It’s also not all in your head.
    0:26:32 It’s a, trauma is a property of the relation between what has happened to you in the past and what is occurring in the present.
    0:26:33 So here’s an example.
    0:26:37 There is an anthropologist who works at Emory University.
    0:26:43 And she studies people in a lot of different cultures.
    0:26:45 And she studies trauma in a lot of different cultures.
    0:26:54 And there was this one girl that she wrote about, a case study of a girl named Maria, who was a young adolescent girl.
    0:27:11 And she lived in a culture where it was more normative for men to physically, be very physical with women and girls.
    0:27:16 So in our culture, we would say it’s physical abuse.
    0:27:19 But in her culture, this is just what men did.
    0:27:24 She didn’t experience, so her stepfather would slap her around.
    0:27:26 And she didn’t like it.
    0:27:28 But she didn’t show any sign of trauma.
    0:27:32 The way she made sense of it was that men are just assholes.
    0:27:36 It was very much a, this is not about me.
    0:27:38 This is about them.
    0:27:41 It’s not pleasant, but she slept okay.
    0:27:44 Her grades were okay in school.
    0:27:45 She had friends.
    0:27:49 She didn’t have any signs of trauma at all.
    0:27:52 Then she watched Oprah.
    0:28:07 And she heard all of these women talk about having been the subject of physical abuse from their boyfriends or their fathers or, you know, their husbands.
    0:28:21 And she recognized the similarity in the physical circumstances of these women’s descriptions and her physical circumstances.
    0:28:29 And she also observed them experiencing, like, you know, symptoms of trauma.
    0:28:35 And all of a sudden, she started to have difficulty sleeping.
    0:28:38 And she, her grades dropped.
    0:28:40 And she had trouble concentrating.
    0:28:42 And she became socially withdrawn.
    0:28:58 Her way of making meaning, her way of, if you think about physical movements as actions, she made different meaning of those actions.
    0:29:03 And she experienced trauma where she didn’t before.
    0:29:10 Now, if you’re somebody who believes that there is an objective world out there, where, you know.
    0:29:11 Cause and effect.
    0:29:12 Yeah.
    0:29:19 That, that really there was some kind of latent trauma in her and she didn’t experience it before, but then it was like triggered.
    0:29:29 And then she’d be, you could tell a whole story like that and people do tell whole stories like that, but that’s not what the best scientific evidence suggests is happening.
    0:29:35 What’s happening is that the physical movements were the same.
    0:29:50 The psychological experience of those movements was different because experience is a combination of the sensory present, the physical present, and the remembered past.
    0:29:56 And you need both in order to have a particular kind of experience.
    0:30:09 So the way to describe what happened to Maria’s trajectory was that she experienced something as an unfortunate aspect of like physical life.
    0:30:13 And then it became about her.
    0:30:23 It became something, not, not this person was doing something bad, but this person was doing something bad to her because of who she is.
    0:30:30 And she was also shown how she should be responding to that by watching Oprah’s show and watching these other individuals responding in a certain way.
    0:30:30 Right.
    0:30:37 So it became about her as a person, not just about, you know, her stepfather was an asshole.
    0:30:47 And if you think about it, what we do in this culture, when people go into therapy for trauma, right, is we’re attempting to actually reverse the narrative.
    0:30:57 So we try to teach people that it’s not, when something traumatic happens to them, it’s, and I want to be really clear what I’m saying, right?
    0:31:02 And I’m not saying that when people experience trauma, it’s their fault.
    0:31:07 I’m not in any way saying they’re culpable for what’s happened to them.
    0:31:20 But sometimes in life, you are responsible for changing something, not because you’re to blame, but because you’re the only person who can.
    0:31:23 The responsibility falls to you.
    0:31:36 And so in this culture, we try to teach people who’ve experienced trauma that they can experience those physical events that happened to them in the past in some other way.
    0:31:42 And when they do, they no longer feel traumatized anymore.
    0:31:51 My mind’s a little bit blown for a number of different reasons, because it’s a real paradigm shift to think that we are giving meaning to the thing that happened in our past.
    0:31:54 And sometimes that meaning is coming from watching other people give it meaning.
    0:31:56 And we’re inheriting that meaning that…
    0:31:57 Oh, yes.
    0:31:58 That’s called cultural inheritance.
    0:32:01 It’s like a cultural, it’s like a contagion.
    0:32:08 So it turns out that, you know, there’s one kind of old evolutionary theory, right?
    0:32:14 This is called the modern synthesis, where inheritance is really your genes.
    0:32:24 You inherit, whatever you inherit, you inherit by your genes, and then natural selection, you know, chooses some gene patterns and not others.
    0:32:27 And that’s really how inheritance works across generations.
    0:32:38 Most evolutionary biologists don’t hold to that view anymore, because for the most part, there are many, many ways to inherit things.
    0:32:47 And a lot of what we think of as inheritance is really more what’s called epigenetic, meaning it doesn’t really involve DNA very much.
    0:32:54 And I would say, the way I like to say it is that we have the kinds of nature that requires a nurture.
    0:33:01 We have the kind of genes that require experience before anything is wired into our brains.
    0:33:04 And most of our characteristics work that way.
    0:33:08 Very few characteristics work just by genes alone.
    0:33:16 What always happens in a neurotypical brain is that you’re born with your brain incomplete, right?
    0:33:22 An adult brain has, we say that it’s wired to its world.
    0:33:24 That world includes its own, your own body.
    0:33:30 But a baby is not a, baby’s brain is not a miniature adult brain.
    0:33:35 It’s a brain that’s waiting for wiring instructions from the world and from its own body.
    0:33:44 So your brain is wired for you to see out of eyes that are the exact distance of your eyes from each other.
    0:33:52 If somehow, you know, magically we could transplant your brain into somebody else’s skull, you would not be able to see out of that skull.
    0:33:56 You would not be able to see out of those eyes because they’re not in the right place.
    0:34:06 You hear with ears, your ability to hear comes from signals that are shaped by the shape of your ear.
    0:34:12 So your brain is wired to hear out of these ears, not any ears, these ears.
    0:34:20 Similarly, you, as a baby, you are taught the meanings of physical signals.
    0:34:23 You’re taught how to make sense of these things.
    0:34:25 That’s called cultural inheritance.
    0:34:34 Many things that we think of as hardwired into the brain are actually culturally inherited across generations.
    0:34:39 That’s how people survive in a particular environment.
    0:34:49 You know, so like in the 1800s and 1900s when explorers would go off and they would go off to Antarctica or here or there and they would very quickly die.
    0:34:51 The Inuit lived there.
    0:34:52 They lived perfectly fine.
    0:34:55 Well, because they had culturally inherited knowledge.
    0:35:01 We’re always transmitting knowledge to each other.
    0:35:08 And that knowledge becomes fodder for our own predictions.
    0:35:13 So your predictions don’t just come from your personal experience.
    0:35:20 They also come from you watching television, you talking to guests, you reading books, watching movies.
    0:35:42 Also, your brain, like most human brains, can do something really fantastic, which is you can take bits and pieces of past experience and put them together in a brand new way so that you can use the past to experience something new that you’ve never experienced before.
    0:35:47 You talked a second ago about therapists try and make you think about the past differently.
    0:36:00 But I do think there’s an underlying belief in our culture and society and on social media that if something happens to you, almost like this Freudian approach of if this happens to you, this is who you become.
    0:36:11 And I was reading that book, The Courage to be disliked over Christmas, and it kind of changed my view on this quite profoundly in an important way because it helped me to understand.
    0:36:20 I think it basically says that what happens to us doesn’t create who we use what happens to us and we apply meaning to it, which then determines the behavior we have.
    0:36:37 And really interestingly in that, it means that many of the beliefs I have about myself, who I say I am, my identity, and therefore like the ways that I behave every day, whether they’re productive or unproductive, are actually just choices I’ve made to apply meaning to the past.
    0:36:39 Does that make sense?
    0:36:40 It completely makes sense.
    0:36:54 And this is really, this is such like a profound, I don’t know if whoever’s listening now understands what I’m saying here, but we said at the start of this conversation, you go through life thinking you’re a puppet and you’re being controlled by what happened to you, who you are, your identity.
    0:37:05 But actually, your identity is just this construction of meaning that you’ve given to the past to serve your purpose now, as it says in the book.
    0:37:09 Yes, I would say it slightly differently, but the message is the same.
    0:37:22 I think there are, in the sensory present, right, there are sights, there are sounds, there are smells, some stuff’s going on inside your own body, right?
    0:37:25 And these signals are going to your brain.
    0:37:29 They have no inherent psychological meaning.
    0:37:30 They have no inherent emotional meaning.
    0:37:32 They have no inherent mental meaning.
    0:37:40 What gives them meaning is the, are your memories from the past.
    0:37:43 You are creating, you are a meaning maker.
    0:37:48 Meaning isn’t a set of features like a dictionary definition.
    0:38:02 So meaning, the meaning of this cup isn’t that it, it’s made of metal and that, I mean, we certainly can talk about those features, but the meaning of this cup in this moment is what I do with it.
    0:38:04 So it could be a vessel for drinking.
    0:38:06 It could be a weapon.
    0:38:09 It could be, you know, a flower holder.
    0:38:12 It could be a measuring cup.
    0:38:19 The meaning of the vessel is what I do with it in the moment.
    0:38:20 That’s its meaning.
    0:38:26 And so the meaning of the vessel isn’t in the vessel.
    0:38:30 And it’s also not only in my head.
    0:38:33 The meaning is the transaction.
    0:38:44 It’s the relationship between this, the features of this vessel, this object, and the signals in my brain, which are creating my actions.
    0:38:54 In fact, even the fact that this is a solid object, the property of solidity is not in the object.
    0:39:04 It’s because I have a body of a certain type with certain features that makes me experience this as solid.
    0:39:08 The solidity isn’t in me and it’s not in the object.
    0:39:10 It’s in the relationship between the two.
    0:39:17 That means everything, everything you experience is partly of your own making.
    0:39:22 You don’t have a sense of agency about it because it happens really automatically.
    0:39:26 It’s happening automatically now as we’re talking.
    0:39:29 It’s happening faster than you can blink your eyes.
    0:39:32 But it’s still happening.
    0:39:52 And that means if you are partly, even though you don’t have a sense of agency, you are partly in control and also therefore responsible for the meaning that is being made.
    0:40:08 And when I said at the outset of our conversation that my goal was to try to, you know, as a science communicator, was to try to explain to people that they have more control over their lives.
    0:40:17 They have more control over who they are in any given moment than they think they do to give them more agency in their lives.
    0:40:20 This is exactly what I mean.
    0:40:25 You don’t have an enduring identity.
    0:40:30 You are who you are in the moment of your action.
    0:40:45 And actions are a combination of the remembered past, so stuff your brain is using to predict, that your brain is assembling super automatically and the sensory present, right?
    0:40:56 So if you want to change who you are, you want to change what you feel, you want to change what your impact is on someone else, you have a couple of choices.
    0:41:07 You can try to go back into the past and change the meaning of what’s happened before so that you’ll remember differently, you’ll predict differently in the future.
    0:41:09 That’s what psychotherapy is.
    0:41:15 That’s what, you know, heartfelt conversations at 2 o’clock in the morning are with your friends or whatever.
    0:41:17 That’s really hard shit.
    0:41:19 It doesn’t always work so well.
    0:41:36 The other thing that you can do, though, is if you realize that whatever you experience now becomes the seeds for predictions later, then you can invest in creating new experiences quite deliberately for yourself now.
    0:41:49 You can expose yourself to new ideas, you can expose yourself to people who are different than you, you can practice cultivating particular experiences like you would practice any skill.
    0:42:03 And that will, any new concepts you learn, new experiences you have, in the moment, if you practice them, they become automatic predictions in the future.
    0:42:08 So let me take that and try and apply it to this example of this silver cup in my hand.
    0:42:20 So psychotherapy would try and go back into the past and explain to me why this actually isn’t something I should drink out of and that it could be other things.
    0:42:32 Whereas what you’re saying is another approach is if I go and get some flowers right now and I put them in there, I’m creating a new prediction for the future because I’ve created a new pattern in the present of this actually being a vase for flowers.
    0:42:40 And I can start to create a new pattern that silver cups like this one aren’t just for drinking out of, they are also vases for flowers.
    0:42:41 Exactly.
    0:42:55 Okay, so I can either go back in the past and try and convince myself that a cup isn’t a cup, or I can, in the present moment, create a new pattern, which will mean that in the future, my brain will predict next time it sees a silver cup, it won’t just think drink out of it, Steve, it’ll think pop some flowers in it.
    0:43:01 Right, and remember, it’s actually, the thinking comes after the action, right?
    0:43:11 So what will happen is the next time that you are approaching a table where a silver cup might be, your brain will already be starting to prepare the actions to go get the flowers.
    0:43:11 Right.
    0:43:17 And then you will think, oh, right, I can use this as a, oh, look, there’s a great vase, right?
    0:43:27 So in your brain, it’s action, first your brain is controlling, it’s preparing the actions of the viscera, what we call viscera motor.
    0:43:29 So does your heart rate need to change?
    0:43:31 Do your blood vessels need to dilate?
    0:43:32 Do you need to breathe differently?
    0:43:39 It’s basically anticipating the needs of the body and attempting to meet those needs before they arise.
    0:43:42 That supports your physical movements, right?
    0:43:53 So if you’re gonna, if you’re walking over somewhere to pick up some flowers and cut the stems and whatever, that, those are all physical movements that require glucose and oxygen and shit like,
    0:43:59 So all of that has to get prepared in advance, milliseconds before the actions start to be prepared.
    0:44:02 So it’s not what you think determines what you feel.
    0:44:10 It’s what you prepare to do determines your thoughts and your feelings and the sights and sounds and smells and sensations.
    0:44:13 That’s how it really works under the hood.
    0:44:17 So meaning is in terms of what you do.
    0:44:26 And then as a consequence of that, meaning is a consequence, it becomes what you feel and what you think and so on.
    0:44:28 So let me give you some specific examples then.
    0:44:38 So if I’m scared of spiders, how would I go about overcoming that fear of spiders using route number two that you described there?
    0:44:46 So one of the ways that you change to change predictions, you can’t just will yourself to change a prediction.
    0:44:48 I am really afraid of bees.
    0:44:53 I had a traumatic experience when I was five.
    0:44:54 I’m afraid of bees.
    0:44:57 I know a lot about bees.
    0:44:59 I’m actually a gardener.
    0:45:04 And I know a lot about the evolutionary biology of bees.
    0:45:12 But when I am outside, if a bee comes around, my first reaction is to either run or to freeze.
    0:45:13 Right?
    0:45:14 I’m afraid of bees.
    0:45:18 I could talk to myself until the cows come home.
    0:45:19 It won’t matter.
    0:45:20 Right?
    0:45:34 So what I have to do is dose myself with prediction error, meaning I have to interact with bees in a way that changes my actions, which will change my lived experience.
    0:45:37 And I can’t just do it all at once.
    0:45:48 It’s not like a good idea would not be for me to say, would not have been for me to go to like somebody who has beehives and, you know, put on a suit and go work.
    0:45:50 I mean, that would be like overwhelming.
    0:45:50 Right?
    0:45:54 So instead, maybe I don’t run.
    0:45:57 Maybe I stand and watch.
    0:46:00 Maybe I get closer to a bee.
    0:46:13 Maybe I plant bushes and flowers that bees like a lot to bring bees to me so that I can sit and just be around them while they’re buzzing and doing their thing.
    0:46:19 Maybe I deliberately let myself get stung at some point, which I did.
    0:46:25 But, you know, you’re dosing yourself with your brain is making a set of predictions.
    0:46:30 Those predictions, there are a set of predictions.
    0:46:33 That means your brain isn’t preparing one action.
    0:46:35 It’s preparing multiple actions.
    0:46:40 So you need to prove to your brain that those predictions are wrong.
    0:46:42 Yes, so exactly.
    0:46:48 You need, you are setting up circumstances so you can prove to yourself that your predictions are wrong.
    0:46:52 If you’re predicting well, you have a few action plans.
    0:46:58 If you’re predicting poorly, let’s say overgeneralizing, maybe you have a hundred plans.
    0:47:05 Like if there’s tremendous uncertainty, your brain doesn’t know which action plan to, so there might be many of them.
    0:47:13 Sensory signals are coming into your brain from the sensory surfaces of your body, from your retinas, from your cochlea.
    0:47:18 You’ve got sensory surfaces on your skin, inside your body, in your muscle cells.
    0:47:19 All these signals coming to your brain.
    0:47:30 They help select which prediction signal will be completed as action and lived experience.
    0:47:46 Okay, so let’s say you put yourself deliberately in a situation where the incoming signals will not select any prediction because there’s too much unpredicted signal there.
    0:47:47 It’s error.
    0:47:52 There’s another name in psychology for taking in prediction error.
    0:47:54 Exposure therapy?
    0:47:54 Learning.
    0:47:56 Oh, okay.
    0:48:12 Yeah, exposure therapy, which is a kind of learning, all learning, all learning is you taking in prediction error, signals you didn’t predict, or there’s no signal that you did predict.
    0:48:14 You predicted a signal, it’s not there.
    0:48:23 So what you do is you set up situations for yourself that you will take in signals that are novel, right?
    0:48:27 And this seems like an easy thing to do.
    0:48:33 We, people actually sometimes seek novelty, all right?
    0:48:48 But too much novelty is not necessarily a good thing all the time, particularly if, you know, you’re metabolically, it’s expensive metabolically to take in prediction error and learn something new.
    0:48:59 Like the biggest costs that your brain expends energy on are moving your body, learning something new, and dealing with persistent uncertainty.
    0:49:03 Those are really expensive things for us.
    0:49:21 So if you’re metabolically encumbered in some way, say you’re depressed, or you have anxiety disorder, or maybe you have heart disease, or diabetes, or you’re living under chronic stress, you don’t have the spoons necessarily to take in prediction error.
    0:49:23 You’re just going to go with your predictions.
    0:49:24 You aren’t going to learn.
    0:49:27 You aren’t going to be able to update those predictions.
    0:49:28 You’re going to be stuck.
    0:49:32 You’re going to be stuck in your head, right?
    0:49:40 Every experience, every action, a combination of the remembered present, the remembered past, the predictions, and the sensory present.
    0:49:49 But the sensory present is there just to select which remembered past you’re going to act on.
    0:50:02 And sometimes, in moments of great metabolic load, the brain just goes with its own predictions and ignores what’s out there in the world.
    0:50:19 I was thinking earlier on as you were speaking about this sort of social contagion where we can apply meaning to our lives and what happened to us and then consequently make ourselves sad because we see how other people on TikTok or Instagram are feeling.
    0:50:24 And it made me think that you must think the world is crazy to some degree.
    0:50:35 You must see social contagion in the world where suddenly everybody becomes traumatized because trauma has become almost popular, you know, to think about what happened to you and create meaning to it and then suffer that meaning.
    0:50:40 But there’s other types of social contagion which are spreading through society.
    0:50:42 I mean, young people are getting more and more anxious.
    0:50:44 They’re getting more and more depressed.
    0:50:48 We’re self-diagnosing ourselves with different illnesses and different things.
    0:50:51 But now you’ve explained to me how the brain works.
    0:50:55 I’m thinking, gosh, as a society, we are bonkers.
    0:50:58 Well, we’re living out lies.
    0:51:12 Yeah, I think, I guess the way I, I do, I do find it frustrating at times, but, but, but only because I think we are meaning makers as an animals are meaning maker.
    0:51:21 We create meaning, we create meaning, we create meaning by virtue of living, like by virtue of interacting with, with things in the world, by interacting with each other.
    0:51:29 Very few meanings are given that, that is that they exist independently of us.
    0:51:51 And so what I find frustrating is that there’s a lot of suffering and understanding these basic operating principles of the brain will not remove all suffering, but it, it could ameliorate, it could remove some.
    0:52:05 And people don’t understand that they are sometimes making their suffering worse than it has to be.
    0:52:07 You pause on the word responsible.
    0:52:14 Well, I want to be really clear that, again, I’m not saying people are, are to blame.
    0:52:18 Culpability and responsibility are not the same thing.
    0:52:21 Culpability is blame, are you blameworthy?
    0:52:27 Right, you can, nobody, I’m not saying people are to blame for their own suffering.
    0:52:37 I’m saying that people can be more responsible in, by taking more responsibility, they could reduce their suffering some.
    0:52:43 That’s not the same thing as saying, you know, that they, that they, it’s their cause, their cause to begin with.
    0:52:44 So I’ll give you an example.
    0:52:45 Social contagion.
    0:52:48 Contagion is an interesting word.
    0:52:50 It means that you are infected by something.
    0:52:53 Even a virus.
    0:53:03 There are these experiments that were done 15, 20 years ago where, um, these are done by Sheldon Cohen, who is a psychoimmunologist, which means he’s a psychologist.
    0:53:11 And he studies how immunology, um, that is your immune system is related to your psychological state.
    0:53:16 And so what he did across a number of experiments is he took people and he sequestered them in hotel rooms.
    0:53:27 And then he took the same dosage, the same concentration of virus, and he put it in every person’s nose.
    0:53:31 And then he controlled how much they slept, how much they ate.
    0:53:32 He measured their symptoms.
    0:53:37 He, like, weighed their tissues after they blew their nose.
    0:53:38 I mean, like, he did, right?
    0:53:41 Just really, really, really, really careful metrics.
    0:53:50 And across these experiments, somewhere between 20 to 40% of people became symptomatic with respiratory disease.
    0:53:59 That means the virus is necessary, but it is not sufficient to cause illness.
    0:54:06 Another necessary, but not sufficient cause is the state of each person’s immune system.
    0:54:16 That is, your brain and your immune system have to be in a particular state in order for you to be infected by a virus in these experiments.
    0:54:21 So the point that I’m making here is exactly the same about suffering.
    0:54:24 So let’s take anxiety, for example.
    0:54:36 You know, we, in a culture, we automatically make meaning of certain types of signal patterns as anxiety.
    0:54:43 When there’s a lot of uncertainty, there’s an increase in norepinephrine and some chemicals in the brain.
    0:54:48 That often goes with an increase in heart rate and so on.
    0:54:54 And we automatically make meaning of this physical state as anxiety.
    0:54:59 But exactly the same physical state could be determination.
    0:55:03 It could be just pure uncertainty.
    0:55:07 Again, meaning making is about action, right?
    0:55:21 So when you are experiencing high arousal, even if it’s super unpleasant as determination, you do something different than if you experience it as anxiety or uncertainty.
    0:55:23 So here’s an example.
    0:55:26 There are people who experience test anxiety.
    0:55:34 Really serious test anxiety prevents people from finishing courses or graduating from college.
    0:55:45 People who graduate from college have a lifetime trajectory of earning that is hundreds of thousands of dollars more often than somebody who drops out of college.
    0:55:50 So test anxiety over the test anxiety over the long run, it’s more than just a bit of discomfort.
    0:55:55 You know, it has serious implications for your earning potential across your life.
    0:56:08 There are these experiments that were done where they trained people to make sense of high arousal physical states, not as anxiety, but as determination.
    0:56:13 And these people learned to do this.
    0:56:15 First, they practice like a skill.
    0:56:15 It’s like driving.
    0:56:17 At first, it’s really hard.
    0:56:18 You have to give a lot of effort to it.
    0:56:21 But you practice, practice, practice, and then eventually it becomes really automatic.
    0:56:23 And then what happens?
    0:56:25 They are able to take tests.
    0:56:27 They’re able to pass tests.
    0:56:29 They’re able to continue taking courses and so on.
    0:56:32 I watched this actually happen right in front of my eyes.
    0:56:37 My daughter, when she was 12 years old, she was testing for her black belt in karate.
    0:56:42 Her sensei was a 10th degree black belt.
    0:56:46 This guy, 10th degree black belt is the highest you could be.
    0:56:50 This guy could break a board like by looking at it.
    0:56:52 He was a scary, scary dude.
    0:56:56 And my daughter was like not even five feet tall when she was 12.
    0:56:59 And she’s this tiny little thing.
    0:57:06 And she’s got to spar with like these hulking like 15, 16, 18-year-old boys.
    0:57:08 She’s got to actually spar with them.
    0:57:12 And so, you know, she’s, and this is across several days.
    0:57:13 She’s got to do this really.
    0:57:17 And so I’m sitting there, her, you know, I’m, her dad and me were sitting there.
    0:57:18 We’re watching her.
    0:57:25 And so her sensei, you know, saunters up to her and he says, sweetheart, get your butterflies
    0:57:26 flying in formation.
    0:57:32 And I was like, that’s fucking amazing.
    0:57:34 Get your butterflies flying in formation.
    0:57:37 He’s not saying calm down, little girl.
    0:57:39 That would actually be bad.
    0:57:40 You don’t want to be calm.
    0:57:42 You need that arousal.
    0:57:43 It’s there for a reason.
    0:57:46 It’s uncomfortable, but you need it.
    0:57:48 He’s saying, use it.
    0:57:55 That to me was like a perfect example of find a different meaning for that arousal.
    0:58:00 And that meaning is the action that you will engage in.
    0:58:07 No matter how hard it is, no matter how much it doesn’t really look like what it’s supposed
    0:58:08 to, the control is there.
    0:58:10 It’s there.
    0:58:12 It’s not there all the time.
    0:58:15 It’s harder to get, you know, yada, yada.
    0:58:16 But it’s there.
    0:58:21 And it means that you have more agency.
    0:58:24 You have more control.
    0:58:27 You’re never going to have as much control as you want.
    0:58:30 It’s always going to be harder to get.
    0:58:34 Your options aren’t always going to be the same.
    0:58:44 But you can always find a little more control over what you do and what you experience.
    0:58:48 And that’s the key to living a meaningful life.
    0:58:52 Are you somewhat concerned about the world that young people are growing up in, where they’re
    0:58:58 scrolling on social media and social media is telling them what certain feelings are.
    0:59:02 So they are just being programmed constantly.
    0:59:04 Yeah, they are.
    0:59:07 To be anxious, to be depressed, to be sad.
    0:59:07 Yes, they are.
    0:59:08 And think about it, too.
    0:59:14 Social media is pernicious uncertainty there.
    0:59:22 You know, you, first of all, even when we’re sitting face to face, we have all of these cues.
    0:59:23 We have all these signals.
    0:59:24 I can see your face.
    0:59:26 I can hear your voice.
    0:59:32 Even when all this information is there, there’s still some uncertainty, right?
    0:59:34 We’re not reading each other.
    0:59:39 Bodily movements are not a language to be read.
    0:59:42 It’s a bad metaphor, right?
    0:59:43 We’re guessing.
    0:59:44 We’re always guessing.
    0:59:47 And we’re using a lot of signals to guess.
    0:59:54 But when you’re on social media, you have very few signals.
    0:59:57 There is a lot of ambiguity.
    0:59:59 There is a lot of uncertainty.
    1:00:09 And the only thing that you can do is fill in that uncertainty with your own guesses, which could be bad, right?
    1:00:24 So people who go on TikTok and whatever are giving up, they’re like volitionally giving up their agency and they don’t know it.
    1:00:24 What do you mean by that?
    1:00:27 They’re choosing to be led.
    1:00:30 They’re choosing to be influenced.
    1:00:35 I’ll give you an example.
    1:00:39 I’ve listened to podcasts about metabolism.
    1:00:43 I’ve listened to podcasts about, you know, skin care.
    1:00:44 I’ve listened to podcasts.
    1:00:45 You know, I’m curious.
    1:00:49 I’m curious about, like, what kind of information people put out there.
    1:00:55 I probably turn off 90% of the—I get, like, 10 minutes into something and I will turn it off.
    1:00:59 That’s what it means to be a consumer.
    1:01:01 You have choice.
    1:01:18 I think people are—they don’t realize that by virtue of what they do and what they don’t do, they are making choices about what will be retained in their heads that will then be used automatically later.
    1:01:20 Brainwashing.
    1:01:20 Brainwashing.
    1:01:27 A little bit, except that you’re the one who’s—you’re choosing it.
    1:01:33 You know, I’m empathic and I’m not blaming people, but they could—things could be better for them, you know?
    1:01:38 I mean, I had a daughter who was clinically depressed.
    1:01:44 That was one of the most frustrating experiences I’ve ever had in my life, in addition to being really tragic.
    1:01:47 I mean, I can talk about it now without breaking into tears.
    1:01:48 That took a long time.
    1:01:52 But at first, she was so resistant.
    1:01:59 Eventually, you know, she made the decision that she wanted to be helped, and then we completely changed her life.
    1:02:02 But she had to make that decision.
    1:02:03 I couldn’t force her to do it.
    1:02:11 And I feel like, a little bit, it’s the same kind of situation now where there’s so much bullshit out there in the wellness industry.
    1:02:21 There’s so much, you know, swirling around on TikTok and on other areas of social media, and not all of it is useful.
    1:02:23 And some of it’s really harmful.
    1:02:26 Do you mind if I pause this conversation for a moment?
    1:02:29 I want to talk about our show sponsor today, which is Shopify.
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    1:03:27 The advantage you have as an objective on Looker is you have a huge amount of information and knowledge which is guiding you to make better decisions.
    1:03:29 But a lot of people don’t have that information and knowledge.
    1:03:32 In fact, they have counter-information and knowledge.
    1:03:44 So when I think about what it takes for someone to make a change in their life, whether it was your daughter or whether it’s someone else who feels like they’re stuck and they feel like they’re trapped in an algorithm or trapped in a life that they want to break out of.
    1:03:53 Based on everything you know and based on the experience you had with your daughter, what is step one to being able to make that change?
    1:03:58 Because I’m really curious as to what it was about your daughter that made her decide that she wanted the help.
    1:04:05 Well, I think that the general answer is baby steps.
    1:04:09 It rarely works to completely change everything all at once.
    1:04:13 I’m not saying it never works, but it rarely works that way.
    1:04:28 So, for example, you know, you could deliberately get off social media for one day a week or do something else instead with a friend.
    1:04:35 Or go for a walk or just and build it into your day as a scheduled thing.
    1:04:39 So that’s the other thing is that you can’t do things because you want to do them.
    1:04:41 You have to force yourself to do them.
    1:04:47 So, for example, I had major back surgery, major back surgery, very serious.
    1:04:57 And I knew that after I had back surgery that I was going to experience sensations I had never had before.
    1:05:00 Just like, you know, if you go for a filling in your tooth, right?
    1:05:03 And then, you know, something’s there that wasn’t there before.
    1:05:08 And then your tongue is like constantly poking at the tooth and you’re not supposed to.
    1:05:12 But you do anyways because your brain is foraging for information.
    1:05:14 It’s foraging for prediction error.
    1:05:22 And then eventually it adjusts its predictions and then it ignores the sensations because they’re
    1:05:24 not relevant, right?
    1:05:28 So that was going to happen on a massive scale for me.
    1:05:36 And I knew that I had made a plan before surgery to dose myself appropriately with prediction
    1:05:39 error so that I would not develop chronic pain.
    1:05:43 Because chronic pain is like a set of bad predictions that don’t update, right?
    1:05:50 So your brain still believes that there’s tissue damage in your body when there’s no more tissue
    1:05:51 damage.
    1:05:55 So does that mean that pain often is just a figment of your imagination?
    1:05:57 No, that’s the wrong way.
    1:05:59 That is the wrong way to think about it.
    1:06:06 The way to think about it is every experience, remembered past and sensory present.
    1:06:09 So pain is in your head.
    1:06:12 Vision is in your head.
    1:06:14 Hearing is in your head.
    1:06:16 You don’t hear in your ears.
    1:06:18 You hear in your head, in your brain.
    1:06:20 You don’t see in your eyes.
    1:06:21 You need your eyes.
    1:06:22 You need your ears.
    1:06:27 But you don’t see in your eyes.
    1:06:29 You see in your brain.
    1:06:38 So pain is a combination of the, just like vision, is a combination of the remembered past and the
    1:06:39 sensory present.
    1:06:40 Okay.
    1:06:41 Okay.
    1:06:41 So it’s both.
    1:06:51 So chronic pain happens when your brain was receiving signals from the body that there
    1:06:52 was tissue damage.
    1:06:53 No susceptive signals, they’re called.
    1:06:57 And it was making sense of them as pain.
    1:07:04 And when you’re recovering from an illness, that’s metabolically taxing.
    1:07:11 So there’s not as much metabolic, there’s not as much of your metabolic budget devoted to
    1:07:12 learning.
    1:07:20 So you can be in a situation where your brain doesn’t update itself and you still experience
    1:07:27 pain, even though the tissue damage is no longer there.
    1:07:34 It’s just like seeing a green apple in your mind’s eye when there is no apple in front of
    1:07:34 you.
    1:07:42 It’s not all in, it’s not all in your head in the, in the, you know, insulting sense.
    1:07:47 It’s just, it’s a normal consequence of how brains work.
    1:07:51 The injury is gone, but the signal of the injury is still replaying itself.
    1:07:52 Yeah, exactly.
    1:07:54 Just like, it’s like a phantom limb.
    1:07:56 It’s like tinnitus is also like that.
    1:07:56 Oh gosh, yeah.
    1:07:58 I had that for a little while.
    1:07:58 Yeah.
    1:08:07 So, um, so I, I tried really hard to set a schedule for myself, um, you know, um, that
    1:08:13 would allow me to sort of like optimally dose myself, but with prediction error, but that
    1:08:17 meant, you know, that I, I had to follow that schedule.
    1:08:23 And I think if you’re committed to changing your habits, this is how you change any habit.
    1:08:33 You change the context and you, um, and then you practice, you practice new, um, new behaviors.
    1:08:45 So with my daughter, depression, we think about depression in our lab, um, as, um, let me back
    1:08:50 up and say, your brain’s most important job really is not thinking.
    1:08:53 It’s not feeling, it’s not feeling, it’s not even seeing, it’s regulating your body.
    1:08:56 It’s regulating your metabolism.
    1:08:59 Basically that’s your brain’s most important job.
    1:09:04 Your brain’s most important job is anticipating the needs of your body and preparing to meet
    1:09:05 those needs before they arise.
    1:09:12 The metaphor that we use for this predictive regulation of the body, which is the formal
    1:09:14 term is called allostasis.
    1:09:20 Um, that’s the scientific concept, but the, but the metaphor is body budgeting.
    1:09:22 It’s running a budget for your body.
    1:09:24 Your brain is running a budget for your body.
    1:09:25 It’s not budgeting money.
    1:09:33 It’s budgeting salt and glucose and oxygen and, um, potassium and like all of the nutrients
    1:09:41 and chemicals that are necessary, um, to, um, and run an energetically costly body.
    1:09:44 You know, you’ve got all these really low level kind of processes.
    1:09:49 You can just think of them as vital parts of, to keep yourself alive.
    1:09:52 So some of your energy budget goes to that.
    1:09:57 Some of your energy budget goes to repair and growth.
    1:10:01 So you get, if you get taller, you need more cells.
    1:10:06 When you learn something, you have to thicken up your myelin and your, your neurons.
    1:10:09 You’ve got to grow more receptors and stuff.
    1:10:12 That’s, you know, the kind of growth and, and repair.
    1:10:16 And then the rest of it is all for anything effortful.
    1:10:17 What is effortful?
    1:10:20 Like work or going to the gym.
    1:10:23 Dragging your ass out of bed in the morning is effortful.
    1:10:23 Yeah.
    1:10:26 Learning something new is effortful.
    1:10:29 Dealing with uncertainty is effortful.
    1:10:31 Everything we call stress.
    1:10:38 Stress is just really, your brain is predicting a big metabolic outlay because there’s some effort
    1:10:39 involved, right?
    1:10:42 Some motivated effort involved.
    1:10:47 So those are the three things that make up your energy budget.
    1:10:54 And the really important point, you as an organism have a fixed amount of energy that you can produce
    1:10:56 in a day.
    1:11:04 Meaning ATP, like these little chemicals that, these little protein things that, you know,
    1:11:11 your cells use as literal energy that come from glucose and, and other things like fats and.
    1:11:13 So there’s nothing I can do to increase it.
    1:11:14 Well, you’re in a range.
    1:11:15 Okay.
    1:11:25 But there is a finite limit, upper limit for that range because you are a, because you’re a human
    1:11:25 organism.
    1:11:33 And you’ve got to do these three things, these vital functions, growth and repair, and then
    1:11:34 everything else.
    1:11:39 If you’ve got a lot of psychosocial stress going on, or you have some kind of disease that’s
    1:11:47 taking up, you know, much of the budget, then you don’t have a lot of budget left for other stuff that you need to do.
    1:11:50 So what your brain will attempt to do is to cut costs.
    1:12:01 If you look at the symptoms of depression, they are symptoms of, that are related to cutting costs.
    1:12:09 Distress, fatigue, problems concentrating, lack of sensitivity to the context that you’re in.
    1:12:16 All of these things are indicative of reduced metabolic outlay.
    1:12:28 And then depression also has symptoms that are related to increased costs, like 70% of people who are depressed have inflammatory problems.
    1:12:40 So they have enhanced inflammatory, systemic inflammation, and your immune system is a very expensive system to run.
    1:12:52 So if you have persistent and systemic inflammation, that’s like a persistent tax on your budget.
    1:12:57 You’re, you know, meaning things are costing more than they necessarily need to.
    1:13:02 And even, you know, like there are these really interesting studies.
    1:13:07 I think they’re interesting as a scientist, as a person, I find them like slightly horrifying.
    1:13:14 But, you know, like if you, within two hours of eating a meal, if you encounter stress, social stress,
    1:13:20 it’s as if you ate 104 more calories than you actually ate.
    1:13:28 So you’re so inefficient in metabolizing that it’s like, it’s like having eaten 104 more calories than you did.
    1:13:35 And the, your, even good fats will be metabolized as if they’re bad fats.
    1:13:36 And potentially stored as.
    1:13:37 Yeah.
    1:13:44 So if you, if you add up 104 calories at every meal for a year, that’s almost 11 pounds.
    1:13:56 That means that if you are in a stressful environment and, um, for a year and you eat exactly the same thing as you ate the year before, you would gain 11 pounds.
    1:14:02 In depression, we know, for example, that, um, there’s cortisol dysregulation in depression.
    1:14:11 That means there’s dysregulation in, um, metabolism because cortisol is a metabolic, you know, it’s, it’s a metabolic chemical.
    1:14:20 Um, people who take, uh, SSRIs, they take for depression, antidepressants are SSRIs usually, or SNRIs.
    1:14:29 That means they are acting on serotonin to keep more serotonin in the, in the juncture, uh, between neurons.
    1:14:31 Serotonin is a metabolic regulator.
    1:14:34 Norepinephrine is a metabolic regulator.
    1:14:41 These are, um, chemicals that are directly involved in your metabolism.
    1:14:49 So it’s not an, a belief that depression is a metabolic, has a metabolic basis to it.
    1:15:00 I think the question is, what is the elixir of all these metabolic influences that would lead somebody to, um, develop a depressive state?
    1:15:14 Um, but the point, the simple point that I was making is I actually came to this idea about metabolism and depression because I was doing a shit ton of treating, trying to figure out how to help my kid.
    1:15:15 What were her symptoms at that time?
    1:15:20 Just if there are any parents listening right now that can relate or anybody that’s listening that can relate.
    1:15:21 Yeah.
    1:15:26 Oh, well, I will tell you that I’ve given this talk before, um, about depression in adolescence.
    1:15:36 Adolescence is a, um, it’s like a, um, it’s like a perfect storm of metabolic, uh, vulnerability for many, many reasons.
    1:15:40 You know, your brain is trapped in a dark, silent box called your skull.
    1:15:44 It’s receiving signals from the body and from the world.
    1:15:48 It doesn’t know what the causes of those signals are.
    1:15:49 It’s receiving the effects.
    1:15:52 It has to guess at the causes.
    1:15:53 What are the guesses?
    1:15:55 Predictions from the past, right?
    1:16:00 So it doesn’t know about hormone surges immediately as they happen.
    1:16:13 It, you know, it takes 20 minutes or so, or sometimes a little less, depending on where the hormonal changes are and what their origin is, for the brain to receive the signals of those changes.
    1:16:16 And then it has to guess at what the causes are.
    1:16:24 The narrative that’s used in psychiatry and medicine is a narrative that goes something like this.
    1:16:27 It goes back to this, like your brain is a battleground, right?
    1:16:35 So the idea is that, you know, you’re born, the story is that you’re born with these innate emotion circuits.
    1:16:38 You’re not, you don’t have any emotion circuits.
    1:16:39 You don’t have any emotion circuits actually.
    1:16:42 But the narrative is you’re born with these innate emotion circuits.
    1:16:46 They work, but you’re not born with the ability to control them.
    1:16:48 That has to develop over time.
    1:17:01 So in adolescence, the idea is that mood disorders arise because you’re, you don’t have enough cognitive control and you have too much emotion.
    1:17:04 So you’ve got this unbridled emotion and that’s the problem.
    1:17:09 That’s a really compelling narrative.
    1:17:12 It’s just neuro bullshit.
    1:17:16 Basically, there’s not a good evidence for that narrative.
    1:17:18 I heard it was a chemical imbalance.
    1:17:19 Yes.
    1:17:31 Well, the, sometimes people talk about that chemical imbalance in terms of serotonin being a happy chemical and dopamine being the reward chemical.
    1:17:36 And that’s also, that’s such a simplification that it’s not even wrong.
    1:17:37 Okay.
    1:17:42 Dopamine is not a reward chemical and serotonin is not a happiness chemical.
    1:17:44 They’re both metabolic regulators.
    1:17:53 You see increases in dopamine in some neurons during episodes of punishment.
    1:18:00 And serotonin does many things in your body in many places.
    1:18:20 But one of the things that it does in controlled experiments is it allows animals to spend, to forage, to engage in activity, physical activity, and learning when there is no immediate metabolic reward at the end.
    1:18:22 There’s no deposit at the end.
    1:18:42 So dopamine is seen more, I think, now by many neuroscientists as a chemical that is necessary for effort, whether that is a physical effort or learning something, a mental effort of learning something.
    1:19:01 It’s not really specific to reward, so at first with my daughter, you know, she went from being a really exuberant, engaged, socially, very socially connected kid who, you know, she did great in school.
    1:19:09 And it’s not like she had, you know, it’s not like she was a perfect kid, but she was pretty enthusiastic and pretty exuberant and had a lot of friends.
    1:19:27 And then, you know, by the time she was in 10th grade, she was withdrawn, she was getting D’s in school, she couldn’t concentrate, she wasn’t sleeping, she was miserable.
    1:19:30 She was really suffering, but she was miserable to be around.
    1:19:35 And to be honest, at the beginning, we thought she was being lazy.
    1:19:38 We thought, you know, she didn’t want to do anything.
    1:19:40 She wanted to spend all this time in her room.
    1:19:43 She didn’t, you know, she wanted to get rid of all of her activities.
    1:19:47 And we thought, come on, man, step up.
    1:19:50 Like, where are you, you know, we thought she was being lazy.
    1:19:58 I mean, really, it just never occurred to me in a million years because she had no mood symptoms as a kid, like none.
    1:20:02 And then all of a sudden, she just, she appeared to have no energy to do anything.
    1:20:07 But to us, it looked like she was being lazy and she didn’t want to do her homework and she seemed really disengaged.
    1:20:15 And it took me a while to realize, oh, no, this is something else.
    1:20:20 She was having trouble remembering conversations that we had.
    1:20:23 And at first I thought, oh, you’re not paying attention to me.
    1:20:31 But then it seemed really clear that even in day-to-day, she couldn’t tell me what was happening in her day.
    1:20:32 She just had no details.
    1:20:38 That’s also a sign of depression where you lose the episodic memory of details of the day.
    1:20:40 You can only talk in gists.
    1:20:45 You can’t give specifics about times and places and events.
    1:20:50 You just lose, you don’t retain that information long enough to be able to remember it later.
    1:20:53 There’s no consolidation of that information.
    1:21:04 And when she was in 10th grade, you know, she came home with Ds in school, Ds in mathematics.
    1:21:08 And this is a kid who was doing fun, you know, she was doing rudimentary algebra when she was eight.
    1:21:20 And we told her that we had to be, we had to have her assessed because we just didn’t know what was going on.
    1:21:22 And that’s when we realized that she was clinically depressed.
    1:21:28 The other thing I should say is that, you know, she had very bad menstrual cramps.
    1:21:40 And so a lot of one treatment for bad menstrual cramps is to put girls on birth control pills.
    1:21:46 Because it evens out the hormonal fluctuations of the month.
    1:21:48 And it does actually improve menstrual cramps.
    1:21:52 But it’s pretty well known now.
    1:22:05 It wasn’t so much known then that there is somewhere between a 40% and 70% increase in the likelihood of major depressive episode in young women who use birth control pills.
    1:22:11 If it’s a combination estrogen-progesterone pill, it’s more like 40%.
    1:22:21 If it’s a progesterone-only pill, which a lot of young women take because it has fewer side effects, you have a 70% increase in major depressive episode.
    1:22:26 And this is in – this first study that I read about this was in a million women.
    1:22:32 And when I read that study, I remember exactly where I was.
    1:22:33 It was like a flashbulb moment.
    1:22:34 I read the study.
    1:22:37 I called her pediatrician, my daughter’s pediatrician.
    1:22:39 And I said, she’s coming off pill today.
    1:22:41 Today.
    1:22:43 So tell me if there’s anything.
    1:22:45 Are there any side effects or can we just stop it?
    1:22:49 And he’s like, well, in my opinion – and I’m like, I don’t give a shit about your opinion.
    1:22:58 I have just read a study that is like – you know, it’s a large-scale epidemiological study of a million women today.
    1:23:00 She’s coming off today.
    1:23:03 And this was after or before she was experiencing depression?
    1:23:11 This was after – it was – it was maybe a year after she was diagnosed.
    1:23:21 Much later, I read – I was reading a book by Naomi Oreskes, the historian of science, and she wrote a book called Why Trust Science?
    1:23:23 And it’s a wonderful book.
    1:23:33 But in the book, she talks about – she gives examples of places, of phenomena where the public didn’t trust science and they should have.
    1:23:34 And this is one of them.
    1:23:37 Apparently, it’s been known for a really long time.
    1:23:48 And I just want to point out that estrogen, progesterone, testosterone evolved as metabolic regulators.
    1:24:02 I’m highlighting it because in a lot of – because in a culture that separates mental from physical, we don’t think about the role of metabolism in vision or in – even in mood.
    1:24:04 That’s a really recent thing.
    1:24:15 In our lab, we – one of the things we study now is the role of metabolism in really basic – really, really basic psychological phenomena.
    1:24:21 Like, just as a fundamental building block of your mind, basically.
    1:24:24 So, your daughter exhibits those symptoms.
    1:24:33 I’m really curious to hear what conventional medicine at that point told you you should do with the daughter in that situation at that time versus what you did.
    1:24:35 You have this wealth of information.
    1:24:36 You have a medical background.
    1:24:42 Yeah, so I should say this was – you know, this was some years ago, right?
    1:24:51 So, currently, there is a kind of a revolution going on where there’s actually something called metabolic psychiatry now.
    1:24:56 Back when this was – when, you know, when I was reading about this, it sounded crazy.
    1:25:03 When I saw what my daughter was – that she was suffering, like, really suffering.
    1:25:14 It’s really hard for me to talk about this because as I’m talking to you about this, I’m thinking, I just – I wish that I – you know, I wish that I had figured this out earlier.
    1:25:30 But anyways, what we did was I found every possible route that I could think of to target her body budget, so basically target her metabolism.
    1:25:48 And then we basically came up with a daily routine, which she participated in making, to see if we could put her on a different trajectory, you know?
    1:25:52 And that involved everything from getting off social media.
    1:25:53 Because?
    1:26:02 Because, first of all, she was using, like a lot of kids do, she was using her screens late at night.
    1:26:07 And at that point – and again, this was something I just happened upon, right?
    1:26:17 But it – actually, at a NCI meeting, at a National Cancer Institute meeting – you know, we have retinal ganglion cells.
    1:26:29 We have cells in our retina that regulate circadian rhythm, and they’re sensitive to light at the wavelengths that comes from your screen – from a screen.
    1:26:39 So if you look at those screens at night, your brain thinks it’s daytime, like your circadian rhythm – you give yourself a circadian rhythm disorder, basically.
    1:26:54 And it will be harder to get into a regular sleep cycle, and you need that regular sleep cycle in order for toxins to clear and in order to consolidate what you’ve learned during the day so that you can remember it later.
    1:27:00 And a whole bunch of restorative things happen during deep sleep that you really need.
    1:27:05 And if you can’t get enough deep sleep, that will make your budgeting problems worse, basically.
    1:27:16 So we targeted her – we got her off social media – well, first of all, off screens after, you know, like 7 o’clock, 8 o’clock at night, no screens.
    1:27:21 Off social media to reduce social uncertainty, social stress.
    1:27:35 I got up with her at 5.30 every morning, made her breakfast, sat with her while she ate breakfast, so made sure that she was eating nutritious food, not pseudo food, like, you know, Pop-Tarts and shit like that.
    1:27:41 We had to start her, like, exercising again, so she started to walk long distances.
    1:27:50 She started doing Pilates, like, not Pilates on a map, but, like, Pilates with a reformer that would make anybody cry, you know?
    1:27:55 Why exercise as it relates to this budget and the metabolic functions?
    1:28:13 Because exercise basically – it’s like your brain – it’s like you’re throwing yourself out of metabolic balance so that the brain can learn to get itself back in.
    1:28:33 Like, you’re basically improving the resilience of your physical systems is basically the way to – so she’s not – you know, she needed something more like interval training, which is what these Pilates classes were, as opposed to, you know, practicing to play tennis or whatever.
    1:28:47 Something that would – where she, you know, after a certain period of time, she’d be dysregulated metabolically, and then she’d drink water and, you know, eat something healthful.
    1:28:54 And then her system basically was learning to become more flexible, again, not so stuck.
    1:29:03 So, again, it was, like, dosing with prediction error or, like, showing the – providing the brain with opportunity to learn that it was wrong.
    1:29:14 And then omega-3s, so we took – I can’t remember the exact dose, but I dosed it out high omega-3s, low omega-6s.
    1:29:24 With her doctor’s permission, we also used a baby aspirin once a day on a full stomach to reduce systemic inflammation.
    1:29:34 So, before bed – I mean, before bed, we had always done, like, a cuddle, you know, like, when she was little, we would read a story or whatever.
    1:29:41 And in her early adolescent years, you know, she rejected that, and then we brought it back.
    1:29:51 So, an hour before bed, we would – either me or her dad, sometimes all three of us – we would read a book together, or, you know, he would read a book to us.
    1:30:01 Or we would – we would sit and talk, and she would tell me, you know, all the things that were happening at school that she could remember.
    1:30:05 And sometimes they were really horrible, and I just had to empathize.
    1:30:07 That was really hard for me because I just wanted to fix it.
    1:30:09 I just wanted to fix it.
    1:30:25 And it was really – I had to really draw on my own experience as a therapist to just sit with the distress and empathize rather than say, do this, do this, do this, do this.
    1:30:30 It took me a long time to learn that, and I’m still sometimes struggling with that.
    1:30:31 Why was that important?
    1:30:37 Because then she feels heard, and she feels understood.
    1:30:40 And when you – it took me a long time to learn this.
    1:30:52 When she would tell me that, you know, someone had done something terribly mean, if I did anything other than empathize, she would feel like I hadn’t heard her.
    1:31:01 And social support is a major – I mean, we are the caretakers of each other’s nervous systems.
    1:31:03 Humans are social animals.
    1:31:04 It’s hard to believe.
    1:31:15 I think in a culture like ours where we’re so individualistic, right, and it seems like a political statement or something, it doesn’t really matter what your political views are.
    1:31:18 We evolve the way we evolve, man.
    1:31:19 We are social animals.
    1:31:22 We affect each other metabolically.
    1:31:25 We can add savings, and we can add taxes.
    1:31:31 And, you know, the best thing for a human nervous system is another human.
    1:31:36 The worst thing for a human nervous system is another human.
    1:31:37 The wrong one.
    1:31:52 There are so many experiments showing such – I mean, I just saw a set of experiments from one of my former postdocs that was just amazing, where she looked at glucose metabolism in mothers and babies.
    1:31:56 And I think she also did it in dating partners, if I’m not mistaken.
    1:32:05 And she looked at them alone and then together, like alone during a task and then together during a task.
    1:32:13 And mothers and babies that are attached well, they’re actually – their glucose metabolism is more efficient, like literally more efficient.
    1:32:20 And I believe she – I believe she also showed this with dating partners, too.
    1:32:34 You know, there are these studies, these old studies showing that, you know, it’s like less calorically demanding to walk up a hill with a backpack if you’re with a friend than if you’re with a stranger.
    1:32:48 I mean, there’s all these really batshit crazy findings that – but if you realize that humans are literally affecting each other on a physical basis, whether they’re aware of it or not, whether they intend it or not, it’s completely irrelevant.
    1:32:57 Or it’s unnecessary, I would say, to have that effect, to have the effects be there, then it starts to make sense.
    1:33:15 You know, like the idea that – and again, meta-analyses show that you will live years longer, years on average, years longer if you are – if you have a social life filled with people who you trust and who trust you.
    1:33:21 So is that why you got the family around just before bed?
    1:33:26 Because it was regulating her nervous system, her body?
    1:33:27 Yeah.
    1:33:29 Sometimes she still says this to me, actually.
    1:33:33 She’ll say, can you just be my friend for a minute and not my mother?
    1:33:35 I’ll be like, yes, I can.
    1:33:38 And then I actually have to do it, which is sometimes hard.
    1:33:44 Or I will say to her, this is for parents.
    1:33:52 Anybody who has an adolescent or an adult child, this is like one of my – I don’t know how I came up with this, but it’s like golden, right?
    1:34:01 I say to her, can I – I’m having a mother moment where I feel the need to nag you about something.
    1:34:05 And if I can just nag you for a minute about it, I won’t need to tell you again.
    1:34:08 So I’m basically asking her permission.
    1:34:12 Can I tell you this thing, which I really want to tell you?
    1:34:19 And I know you don’t want to hear it, but you would be doing me a real kindness if you would just listen to me for a minute.
    1:34:20 And I know it’s me.
    1:34:20 It’s all me.
    1:34:21 It’s not you.
    1:34:22 It’s all on me.
    1:34:23 This is me.
    1:34:27 But I just – it would be better if you could just let me.
    1:34:33 And most of the time she says, you know, with great forbearance, right?
    1:34:35 Like, sure, mama, go ahead.
    1:34:38 Sometimes she says, not today.
    1:34:41 And then I actually have to listen, you know?
    1:34:43 So, yeah.
    1:34:46 But there were probably other things I’m not thinking of right now.
    1:34:49 I’ve written them all down because a lot of people have asked me this question.
    1:34:53 And what I like to say is this is – I’m not a physician.
    1:34:55 I’m not a psychiatrist.
    1:34:58 This is not a recommendation or recipe for your children.
    1:35:02 I’m just telling you what I did as a scientist.
    1:35:04 And you wrote down what you did.
    1:35:05 You still have a copy of that.
    1:35:08 So I can link it below for anyone that does want to read what you did.
    1:35:12 Yes, but it’s – again, it’s –
    1:35:14 It’s what you did for your daughter at that time.
    1:35:16 Yeah, just as a person.
    1:35:23 Who had read the literature, I – it’s not a – it’s not – this is not medical advice.
    1:35:31 It’s – I’m really strongly – and also I should say, you can’t force your adolescent to do anything.
    1:35:36 You can’t even force your kids really to do anything unless you threaten them with physical harm.
    1:35:40 They have to make that choice themselves, right?
    1:35:41 And did she recover?
    1:35:44 Yes, she did.
    1:35:56 And I think one of the reasons why she is good now, it’s not that she never has challenges with her mood, but she understands them in physical terms.
    1:36:01 She doesn’t understand her mood as being a psychological problem.
    1:36:10 She understands it as a symptom or a barometer of her body budget.
    1:36:14 This is something I learned from your work while I was researching, which was really, really helpful to me.
    1:36:18 And it’s pretty much exactly what you just said, which is sometimes I’m in a not-so-good mood.
    1:36:25 And if I’m not conscious about that, then the bad mood can wreak havoc, right?
    1:36:26 I can be short with people or whatever.
    1:36:36 And when I was reading your work and thinking about bad or good moods through the context of this body budget, it makes you pause for a second and go, what am I missing?
    1:36:39 And it makes you very conscious of what you then do.
    1:36:43 It almost makes you suddenly take hold of the wheel and go, okay, so there’s a problem here.
    1:36:44 It’s a physical problem.
    1:36:45 I didn’t get sleep last night.
    1:36:46 I haven’t eaten.
    1:36:51 Whatever it might be, be really aware of what this makes you do or feel or think.
    1:36:58 And the actions you need to take are maybe cancel everything you were planning today and go back to bed.
    1:37:02 Well, but I think that you just put your finger on the really important thing.
    1:37:05 It’s that it changes what you do next.
    1:37:06 Yeah.
    1:37:09 And that changes the trajectory of what happens.
    1:37:13 And I think this is really – it’s not like a magic cure.
    1:37:24 And again, you know, but when someone is – when you feel really distressed, you either look to the world, like what is wrong with the world, or you look to yourself.
    1:37:25 What is wrong with me?
    1:37:27 And really, it could be.
    1:37:28 Maybe there is something wrong with the world.
    1:37:30 Maybe there is something wrong with you.
    1:37:35 But most likely, it’s something – there’s a body budgeting problem.
    1:37:45 Even if it’s the case that there’s something wrong with the world, you’re better equipped to deal with that thing if you are managing your body budget.
    1:37:51 You really do need to design your calendar as much as you possibly can in the confines of the profession you have around that body budget.
    1:37:56 And for me, the big change I made two years ago – super privileged, I get that, and everyone can do it.
    1:38:01 I couldn’t do it when I was working in call centers – was I implemented a rule where there’s no meetings before 11 o’clock.
    1:38:07 And it just means for me that I never set an alarm, so I wake up when I’m fully recharged.
    1:38:09 And it was the most profound thing.
    1:38:11 I should have done this way sooner.
    1:38:13 But it’s had such a big impact on my life.
    1:38:19 Because you can almost guarantee that it’s very, very rare for me to be underslept, although it happens because I have to travel and stuff a lot.
    1:38:21 But that really had a profound impact on my life.
    1:38:23 Yeah, and I think, you know –
    1:38:24 And as a leader and as a –
    1:38:25 Exactly.
    1:38:41 And I think, honestly, if leaders take this seriously, then the hope is that there’ll be some realization that this is also important for everybody.
    1:38:48 And, you know, we have a society that is structured in a particular way, but there’s no requirement that it’s structured in this way.
    1:38:58 There’s, you know, the biggest predictor of work productivity after, you know, is sleep and hydration.
    1:39:02 And after you take away sleep and hydration, I think exercise is up there too.
    1:39:05 You know, some of us have more choices than others, right?
    1:39:21 But it’s important, I think, for people who are CEOs, who are leaders, who are business leaders, to understand that there are good business reasons.
    1:39:26 There are good economic reasons to take this shit seriously.
    1:39:43 Am I right in thinking that alcohol impacts your body budget and it therefore makes it harder for you to exhibit all the other behaviors and expend energy in other areas and also therefore increases the probability that you’ll be depressed?
    1:39:57 So I should say that I am not an expert in the metabolism of alcohol, so I’m going to extrapolate based on what I do know.
    1:40:12 And what I would say there is that sometimes people will drink alcohol like they will eat chocolate or, you know, they’re doing it for the taste or for the experience of, you know, the ambiance and experience of it, right?
    1:40:16 But a lot of people end up using alcohol.
    1:40:22 They might start that way or they might start because they’re doing something with friends, but then they realize that it has a mood.
    1:40:25 It affects their mood.
    1:40:31 Anything which affects your mood, like people talk a lot about emotion regulation, but it’s actually mood regulation.
    1:40:37 Again, you know, your mood is this, these simple feelings that are with you all the time.
    1:40:40 You know, your brain is always regulating your body.
    1:40:46 Your body is always sending signals back to your brain, which it, out of which it makes mood.
    1:40:50 So mood is a property of consciousness.
    1:40:53 It’s with you always.
    1:41:01 Sometimes in moments you will make sense of the signals and the mood that goes with it in terms of the outside world.
    1:41:04 And that’s when you experience emotion, right?
    1:41:08 Where your actions are relating the two together in terms of your mood.
    1:41:12 But a lot of the time, we don’t.
    1:41:16 We just experience mood as a property of consciousness.
    1:41:18 You know, this is a delicious drink.
    1:41:20 That guy’s an asshole.
    1:41:21 You’re very trustworthy.
    1:41:25 The mood is embedded in the perception of the world.
    1:41:31 And when people, it’s just like actually sometimes opioids have this effect also.
    1:41:39 They are, they’re mood altering, meaning they’re, they are, if they’re manipulating your mood, they are manipulating your metabolism.
    1:41:49 And when people get addicted, they often get addicted because they’re regulating their mood.
    1:41:53 They’re attempting to reduce their suffering.
    1:42:04 The problem with, or a problem, I shouldn’t say that problem because I don’t know exactly how mood, exactly how alcohol affects metabolism.
    1:42:09 My expectation is that it’s not just one, it’s not just in one way.
    1:42:12 And also, I do know there are context effects, actually.
    1:42:17 So you can drink exactly the same amount of alcohol and it can have different effects in different contexts.
    1:42:19 That totally blew my mind when I saw that research.
    1:42:34 So I’m thinking it’s not a simple relationship, but one thing I do know is that your predictions become sloppier and you don’t take in prediction error.
    1:42:36 You don’t learn.
    1:42:49 You won’t, you won’t update any, you know, so there, and so, and your behaviors are not necessarily well calibrated to the situation that you’re in,
    1:42:52 which can have all kinds of downstream difficult problems.
    1:42:59 You know, you can make things in the downstream worse for yourself and make it harder to do budgeting later.
    1:43:05 Isn’t it incredibly annoying when you’re in a rush to leave your house, but you can’t find your phone or your wallet?
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    1:44:18 I wanted to ask you about something I heard you say.
    1:44:20 And I’ve actually heard other guests on my podcast say it.
    1:44:28 And I wasn’t ever sure if it was true until I heard you say it, which is that we can change our emotions by smiling.
    1:44:42 Because if the brain is predicting, then presumably if I do a big smile and I go, yes, then the brain is going to predict good feelings and going to cause good feelings, et cetera, et cetera.
    1:44:44 And are you going to cause me to feel nice about myself?
    1:44:46 Well, yes and no.
    1:44:51 I think, you know, people smile when they’re not happy, too.
    1:44:53 People smile when they’re angry.
    1:44:57 People smile when they’re plotting the demise of their enemy.
    1:44:59 You know, people smile for all kinds.
    1:45:01 People smile when they’re afraid.
    1:45:04 But can I make myself happier technically by smiling?
    1:45:16 The meta-analytic evidence suggests that there is a slight effect, that it’s – that there’s a small – yeah, yeah.
    1:45:18 Crinkle your – crinkle.
    1:45:18 There you go.
    1:45:21 It’s like putting – put a pencil between your teeth.
    1:45:23 No, go ahead.
    1:45:23 Oh, you need that, yeah.
    1:45:24 Now smile.
    1:45:26 Now crinkle.
    1:45:26 Okay.
    1:45:28 So it’s like that.
    1:45:33 And the – so what I would say is it’s a minuscule effect size.
    1:45:34 Like it’s very small.
    1:45:35 I do feel happier.
    1:45:36 Do you?
    1:45:36 Yeah.
    1:45:39 But that’s because I made you do something silly maybe?
    1:45:39 Maybe, yeah.
    1:45:44 But anyways, the point being that it’s overblown as an effect.
    1:45:55 I think there’s a small – my recollection is that the last meta-analysis I read was that there was a small effect.
    1:46:00 But a small effect means it doesn’t work for everyone and it doesn’t work always.
    1:46:03 It’s just really, really a very, very small effect.
    1:46:08 You must have a perspective on ADHD, which has become a huge topic of conversation in society.
    1:46:10 I was diagnosed with ADHD.
    1:46:16 I don’t necessarily take it to mean anything because I’ve seen so many variations of ADHD in my friends.
    1:46:25 But there’s been this big rise of ADHD and linked to the work that you’ve done on the brain being a predictive tool.
    1:46:37 So my general response is the following, that people – there’s a rise in people self-diagnosing and in using diagnosis as an explanation
    1:46:44 for behavior or for why people experience what they experience or whatever.
    1:46:47 Diagnoses are not explanations of anything.
    1:46:48 They’re descriptions.
    1:46:51 They don’t explain anything.
    1:47:00 And to treat a diagnosis like it’s an explanation is a form of essentializing, which is not a good thing.
    1:47:15 It means that you’re assuming that there’s some kind of underlying, unchanging essence, which is responsible for – in fact, there is something called psychological essentialism, where you don’t even know what the essence is.
    1:47:19 You just assume it’s there, you just assume it’s there, and that it’s the cause of all these symptoms.
    1:47:22 But a diagnosis is just a description of symptoms.
    1:47:29 And diagnoses are mostly useful for billing hours of treatment.
    1:47:40 They’re not optimized for pockets, describing pockets of behavior that are, you know, or collections of behavior that tend to go together.
    1:47:44 Because people sometimes think that serotonin and dopamine are the reason why someone has ADHD.
    1:47:47 That’s like one of the theories that I’ve –
    1:47:49 So there are multiple serotonin receptors.
    1:47:51 There are multiple dopamine receptors.
    1:47:53 They don’t all do the same thing.
    1:47:55 Serotonin doesn’t do one thing.
    1:47:57 Dopamine doesn’t do one thing.
    1:48:03 It does different things in different places in the body and the brain, depending on what the receptors are.
    1:48:13 And also, every resource of resilience and every symptom of difficulty has a context to it.
    1:48:24 There are requirements, the way our society is structured, there are requirements for sitting and paying attention to something for long periods of time.
    1:48:29 And that requirement is hidden in the background.
    1:48:39 It’s there so frequently that we forget that that’s the conditional – that’s the condition upon which diagnoses are made.
    1:48:47 So whatever – first of all, ADHD is not one set of symptoms.
    1:48:48 It’s a variety.
    1:49:01 It’s like it’s a – you know, there’s a lot of variation in the way that – you can have different symptom profiles and have the same diagnosis because it’s just descriptive and there are lots of symptoms.
    1:49:08 Some of those symptoms also occur in – they overlap with other syndromes, other diagnostic clusters.
    1:49:15 But the point is that they all – when you diagnose someone, it makes it sound like that’s a property of that person.
    1:49:16 Yeah.
    1:49:16 But it’s not.
    1:49:20 It’s a property of a person in the context that they’re in.
    1:49:26 And social expectation by – by any respects, like can he pay attention in school?
    1:49:28 Well, right.
    1:49:33 And the way that school is organized is, you know, you sit for long periods of time.
    1:49:45 Well, it may be that there are other circumstances in which not holding your attention on one thing for a long period of time could be advantageous.
    1:49:51 So my point is that there are very few things that are just categorically good or categorically bad.
    1:49:53 There’s always a hidden condition.
    1:49:53 Sure.
    1:49:55 There’s always a hidden context.
    1:49:59 And so I think it’s really important to foreground that context.
    1:50:00 You’re not broken.
    1:50:07 You’re just – your suitability to a certain context has been deemed to be – like doesn’t fit.
    1:50:09 It’s not productive for that context.
    1:50:19 And that may sound like weasel words or it may – you know, but it’s not because it’s important that competencies are by context.
    1:50:27 And again, I would say this is not, you know, me being a bleeding heart, you know, progressive or whatever.
    1:50:30 I mean, I am a bleeding heart progressive, but this is not an example of that.
    1:50:32 This is an example of me being pragmatic.
    1:50:39 You can regulate each other, something you talked about earlier on, which I found really, really interesting.
    1:50:48 I was reading about a study where – of 25,000 people and they found that people having a heart attack were 14% more likely to survive if they were married.
    1:50:51 But the other thing that I found interesting is that we regulate each other with words.
    1:50:57 And I think you did a study on assessing the power of words to facilitate emotion.
    1:51:01 You were – it was a study you co-authored.
    1:51:27 Well, we’ve studied the power of words in many contexts, including words as invitations to make sense of – you know, so if an instance of emotion is you making meaning of what is going on inside your body in relation to the world, then you can – you invite – every time you use an emotion word, you invite people to make meaning in that way.
    1:51:31 So you’ve proven, then, that certain words can calm us down?
    1:51:35 Well, yes, but I wouldn’t say I’ve proven anything.
    1:51:37 Scientists don’t, you know –
    1:51:38 Shown, demonstrated.
    1:51:41 Yeah, demonstrated in a – you know, in a context, right?
    1:51:45 Like, we – you know, scientists don’t like the F word.
    1:51:48 The fact – I like the other F word, but the fact.
    1:51:49 Fact.
    1:51:57 That’s a tough one because it means something that holds under all circumstances in all contexts, and that’s very rarely the case.
    1:51:59 So – but yes, we have.
    1:52:06 So – and I mean, so if you’ve done it probably a million times, you text things to people, do you not?
    1:52:06 Yeah.
    1:52:15 Yeah, and when you text a couple of words to your partner or your friend, you can change their heart rate.
    1:52:17 You change their breathing rate.
    1:52:22 You can change all kinds of chemicals, all kinds of protein synthesis just with a couple of words.
    1:52:27 Again, you know, we live in a – you know, free speech is important.
    1:52:31 Freedoms are important, but freedoms come with responsibilities.
    1:52:39 Like it or not, we regulate each other’s nervous systems in all kinds of ways, including with words.
    1:52:42 And –
    1:52:43 For better or for worse.
    1:52:44 For better or for worse.
    1:52:45 Exactly.
    1:52:47 And so –
    1:52:49 You really made me think differently about stress as well, generally.
    1:53:03 Because if I think about my life through the lens of this metabolic budget and stress is a burden to this budget, then if I don’t limit my stress, I’m much more likely to go over budget.
    1:53:11 And if I go over budget, my immune system might be the thing that I cut the costs of or something else.
    1:53:11 Right.
    1:53:15 I mean, there’s good – you can’t be without stress.
    1:53:16 That would mean you’d be without effort.
    1:53:29 So, you know, sometimes scientists will talk about good stress and bad stress, which really just means stress that is planned and where you replenish what you spend and stress that is pernicious and you don’t.
    1:53:30 Chronic stress.
    1:53:32 Chronic stress or, you know.
    1:53:47 So, you know, if you’re in a stressful meeting, a meeting where it’s affecting your mood, that means there’s been some metabolic impact, take into account what that means.
    1:53:59 With all that you know about the brain, I wondered if you – if it’s changed your view at all on religion and God and spirituality and if there is a higher power at all.
    1:54:01 The brain is such a wonderfully complex, beautiful thing.
    1:54:06 You know, it’s the objective observer in 2025 looks at a brain because this is fantastic.
    1:54:10 Many people then conclude that there must be a creator of that brain.
    1:54:13 But also we’ve talked so much today about meaning and the point of it all.
    1:54:18 So everything you’ve learned about the brain and neuroscience and psychology, has it made you believe in a God?
    1:54:19 No.
    1:54:23 Has it made you more atheist or agnostic?
    1:54:27 I’m pretty firmly an atheist.
    1:54:42 I don’t think that the wondrous complexity of nature or the brain or the nervous system requires a designer.
    1:54:45 And that logic doesn’t make sense to me.
    1:54:48 So this is obviously a terrible leap.
    1:54:55 But do you therefore think that there’s no inherent meaning to life outside of, you know, the, like, reproduction and –
    1:54:59 I’m just reading for the second time this book.
    1:55:01 It’s called Open Socrates.
    1:55:02 Okay.
    1:55:05 And it’s a really wonderful book.
    1:55:10 And I’ve learned a lot about Socratic philosophy that I didn’t know.
    1:55:18 And one of the things that Socrates thought was important was asking this question of what is meaning.
    1:55:23 And that you shouldn’t be asking this question in 15-minute increments.
    1:55:28 You should be really asking this question about the expanse of your life.
    1:55:49 And so I think, if anything, being a scientist who studies how a brain in constant conversation with a body and the other brains and bodies in our world and even the physical nature of our world,
    1:56:03 How that creates lots of minds, including our very Western mind, that makes me think more about the importance of philosophy, actually.
    1:56:10 Because I think philosophy is asking the same kinds of questions that religious belief tries to answer.
    1:56:13 And for me, that’s a better path.
    1:56:15 I think it’s a more comfortable path.
    1:56:19 I’ve often been asking questions like this my whole life, actually.
    1:56:22 So it makes me feel more like, what’s the point?
    1:56:23 Like, what is the ultimate point?
    1:56:33 I think the answer for me, the ultimate point, is to leave the world a little better than I found it.
    1:56:38 It’s like the Johnny Appleseed, you know, philosophy.
    1:56:45 You know, like as a scientist, scientists often, you know, a lot of us, we don’t do what we do for money.
    1:56:46 Money’s not bad.
    1:56:47 But we don’t do what we do for money.
    1:56:49 We do it for other motivations, right?
    1:56:54 To know, to be curious, to try to discover things.
    1:56:59 And at some point, we start to think about, well, what’s your legacy, right?
    1:57:01 Most of us are not Darwin.
    1:57:04 We’re not William James.
    1:57:07 We’re not, you know, Heisenberg.
    1:57:10 We’re not, you know, most of us are not those people.
    1:57:13 So what’s your legacy?
    1:57:19 And in the end, I realized that I’ve published a lot of peer review papers.
    1:57:25 When people introduce me, you know, they give some kind of like, you know, about my citation, you know, people, whatever.
    1:57:32 Dr. Lisa is one of the most influential figures in the field of emotion, neuroscience, and the nature of the brain.
    1:57:39 She is among the top 0.1% cited scientists in the world for her revolutionary research in psychology and neuroscience.
    1:57:42 Yeah, that’s all nice, super nice.
    1:57:55 But actually, my legacy is really the people who I’ve trained, the minds that I’ve had the opportunity to engage with.
    1:58:16 And if I were going to be bean counting, I might be bean counting the number of laboratories that now exist that didn’t exist before, several generations of scientists who I trained, or who, you know, and also who trained me, I mean, along the way.
    1:58:23 So that’s my legacy in some ways, really, it’s the people, it’s the people, and the ideas.
    1:58:48 And I would like to think, you know, when I used to do a lot of classroom teaching, I would feel like, what I told myself is, if I can change the trajectory, the outcomes of just one person in this class, just one, then I will have done my job.
    1:58:57 You know, and I kind of feel that way, you know, and I kind of feel that way a little bit, sort of the same about the public, the public face of what I’m doing, right?
    1:59:01 The public science education.
    1:59:14 If I can help, if I can help, if something that I’ve learned or something I’ve communicated can help somebody else live a more intentional
    1:59:34 life of agents with agency where they’re choosing and they’re impacting their loved ones or their children, then, then that’s my, then I’ve done my job.
    1:59:35 That’s my legacy.
    1:59:47 And the hard thing about that kind of a legacy, a legacy of ideas impacting people’s lives, is that you don’t ever know what your impact is.
    1:59:51 But that’s part of the deal.
    1:59:59 We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they’re leaving it for.
    2:00:04 Question is, how to live a life without attaining anything?
    2:00:07 I have some context on this person.
    2:00:12 They are a black belt, Shaolin monk.
    2:00:14 So they talk a lot about identity.
    2:00:15 Sure.
    2:00:19 And they, and living without encumbrances and attachments and so on.
    2:00:19 Right.
    2:00:22 So it’s, it’s, it’s, it sounds like a very Buddhist question.
    2:00:28 The problem is that I think even a Buddhist attains something, they attain enlightenment.
    2:00:30 So they don’t have attachments necessarily.
    2:00:31 They don’t have wealth.
    2:00:32 They don’t have power.
    2:00:34 They don’t, but they attain something.
    2:00:36 They attain enlightenment.
    2:00:40 They attain tranquility.
    2:00:43 How about then how to live life without your identity?
    2:00:48 Making you unhappy?
    2:01:00 Well, I think it’s important to remember that you don’t really have an identity that is separate from the moment that you’re in.
    2:01:02 It’s not like there’s an essence to you.
    2:01:15 And what I would say is that every, everything you experience, everything you do is a combination of the remembered past and the sensory present.
    2:01:32 That means to change who you are, you can change what you remember or how you predict, or you can change the sensory present by literally getting up and moving somewhere else, like going for a walk.
    2:01:38 Or you can change the sensory present by what you pay attention to, mindfulness, for example, right?
    2:01:43 You, there are, there are some sensory signals that are front and center in your attention.
    2:01:45 And there are some that are in the background lurking.
    2:02:00 For example, you can, right now you’re not paying attention to some sensory signals, but the minute that I say them, point them out, you will be, like the pressure of the chair against your back and your legs.
    2:02:03 Now they’re in the forefront of your attention because I just mentioned them.
    2:02:08 And so what I would say is that there is no essence to who you are.
    2:02:10 You are what you do.
    2:02:14 In that moment, you are what you do.
    2:02:18 And you can change what you do.
    2:02:31 You can change what you experience, the consequence of the lived experience, which is the consequence of what you do, by what you remember and what the context is.
    2:02:34 So that’s my answer.
    2:02:38 If you always remember that, you will never be attached.
    2:02:53 You will never crave or strive, you know, to have things and like all of these artificial things, which prop up the illusion that you are and you have an essence to you that you, that, you know, is unchanging across situations.
    2:02:59 Yeah, we, I, we are very quick to fall into the trap of thinking we are what we did.
    2:03:09 And that’s, I much prefer, I am what I do, because that means that I have agency to make a different decision in the moment, irrespective of what I did in the past.
    2:03:11 But that’s the trap we fall into.
    2:03:20 In 10 minutes time, I bet I’ll be downstairs and I’ll be back into the trap of thinking that I am Stephen Bartlett who did this thing for 32 years or did, you know.
    2:03:22 Lisa, thank you.
    2:03:25 Thank you so much for, thank you for everything that you do.
    2:03:27 I’ve, I’ve, you’ve changed my mind in a really profound way.
    2:03:29 And that’s quite hard because I sit here quite a lot.
    2:03:35 So I have lots of conversations about the brain and about lots of, lots of new studies that have come out, et cetera, et cetera.
    2:03:42 But you’ve completely changed my mind and made me think from, in a completely different way, which I’m really grateful for.
    2:03:44 So thank you so much because that’s a gift.
    2:03:48 And that’s not a gift that I always get doing this job, but it really is a gift.
    2:03:51 And it’s one that I think will help me to live a better life ultimately.
    2:04:07 But hopefully also for everybody that’s listening and thank you for stepping into the public communication side of your life because I was going to say it’s someone that knows what you know and that has done the work that you’ve done.
    2:04:22 It is so important to the extent that I almost consider it to be like a really critical responsibility because there’s people like us that sit on these podcasts who aren’t in the laboratory, that are getting our information from social media, TikTok, or any, any odd person that says anything.
    2:04:27 And it’s really, really important that people like you step out more and share what you know.
    2:04:32 And thank you so much for writing these books because they are absolutely brilliant.
    2:04:36 And just like you’ve changed my mind today, I think these books will change a lot of people’s lives.
    2:04:38 I highly recommend this book, How Emotions Are Made.
    2:04:40 I’m going to link it below, The Secret Life of the Brain.
    2:04:47 And also for something a little bit shorter, but equally accessible, this book here, Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain.
    2:04:49 Thank you so much.
    2:04:50 Thank you so much.
    2:04:53 I’m going to let you into a little bit of a secret.
    2:05:01 You’re probably going to think me and my team are a little bit weird, but I can still remember to this day when Jemima from my team posted on Slack that she changed the scent in this studio.
    2:05:05 And right after she posted it, the entire office clapped in our Slack channel.
    2:05:10 And this might sound crazy, but at the Diary of a CEO, this is the type of 1% improvement we make on our show.
    2:05:12 And that is why the show is the way it is.
    2:05:18 By understanding the power of compounding 1%, you can absolutely change your outcomes in your life.
    2:05:21 It isn’t about drastic transformations or quick wins.
    2:05:27 It’s about the small, consistent actions that have a lasting change in your outcomes.
    2:05:32 So two years ago, we started the process of creating this beautiful diary, and it’s truly beautiful.
    2:05:36 Inside, there’s lots of pictures, lots of inspiration and motivation as well.
    2:05:37 Some interactive elements.
    2:05:46 And the purpose of this diary is to help you identify, stay focused on, develop consistency with the 1% that will ultimately change your life.
    2:05:52 So if you want one for yourself or for a friend or for a colleague or for your team, then head to thediary.com right now.
    2:05:53 I’ll link it below.
    2:05:56 This has always blown my mind a little bit.
    2:06:00 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven’t yet subscribed to this show.
    2:06:02 So could I ask you for a favor?
    2:06:08 If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free, simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button.
    2:06:15 And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I’ll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week.
    2:06:20 We’ll listen to your feedback, we’ll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we’ll continue to do what we do.
    2:06:21 Thank you so much.
    Có những thí nghiệm mà họ đã huấn luyện mọi người để trải nghiệm lo âu, nhưng như là một sự quyết tâm, vì trạng thái cơ thể giống hệt như vậy có thể được trải nghiệm một cách hoàn toàn khác biệt. Và những gì họ phát hiện ra là lúc đầu rất khó khăn, nhưng bạn thực hành, thực hành, thực hành, và cuối cùng nó trở nên tự động. Vì vậy, điều đầu tiên cần hiểu là… Tiến sĩ Lisa Feldman Barrett là một nhà thần kinh học hàng đầu thế giới. Nghiên cứu mang tính tiên phong của bà tiết lộ rằng cảm xúc như lo âu và chấn thương được hình thành bởi não bộ. Và chúng ta có quyền kiểm soát chúng. Câu chuyện là bạn được sinh ra với những mạch cảm xúc bẩm sinh này, nhưng bạn không được sinh ra với khả năng kiểm soát chúng. Điều đó là sai. Thực sự điều đang xảy ra là não bộ của bạn không phản ứng, nó đang dự đoán. Và mọi hành động bạn thực hiện, mọi cảm xúc bạn có là sự kết hợp của những ký ức trong quá khứ, bao gồm cả những chấn thương. Vì vậy, bạn không có cảm giác về quyền lực của bản thân trong điều đó vì mọi thứ diễn ra thật sự tự động, nhanh hơn cả khi bạn nháy mắt. Điều này thay đổi cách chúng ta nên đối xử với chấn thương như thế nào? Đôi khi trong cuộc sống, bạn có trách nhiệm thay đổi điều gì đó, không phải vì bạn phải chịu trách nhiệm, mà vì bạn là người duy nhất có thể. Ý tôi là, tôi có một cô con gái bị trầm cảm lâm sàng, cô ấy nhận điểm D ở trường, cô ấy không ngủ, cô ấy rất khổ sở. Ban đầu cô ấy rất chống đối, nhưng sau đó cô ấy đã quyết định rằng cô ấy muốn được giúp đỡ. Và cô ấy đã phục hồi chứ? Có, cô ấy đã phục hồi. Vì vậy, nếu bạn muốn thay đổi con người bạn, những gì bạn cảm thấy, hiểu những nguyên lý hoạt động cơ bản này chính là chìa khóa để sống một cuộc sống có ý nghĩa. Vậy bước đầu tiên để có thể thực hiện sự thay đổi đó là gì? Một điều nhanh trước khi chúng ta quay trở lại với tập này, hãy cho tôi 30 giây thời gian của bạn. Hai điều tôi muốn nói. Điều đầu tiên là một lời cảm ơn to lớn vì đã lắng nghe và kết nối với chương trình tuần này qua tuần khác. Điều đó có ý nghĩa rất lớn đối với tất cả chúng tôi và đây thực sự là một giấc mơ mà chúng tôi chưa bao giờ có và không thể tưởng tượng được khi đến được nơi này. Nhưng thứ hai, đó là một giấc mơ mà chúng tôi cảm thấy như mình chỉ mới bắt đầu. Và nếu bạn thích những gì chúng tôi làm ở đây, hãy tham gia cùng 24% những người thường xuyên nghe podcast này và theo dõi chúng tôi trên ứng dụng này. Đây là một lời hứa mà tôi sẽ làm với bạn. Tôi sẽ làm mọi thứ trong khả năng của mình để làm cho chương trình này tốt nhất có thể ngay bây giờ và trong tương lai. Chúng tôi sẽ mang đến những khách mời mà bạn muốn tôi trò chuyện và chúng tôi sẽ tiếp tục thực hiện tất cả những điều mà bạn yêu thích về chương trình này. Cảm ơn bạn. Cảm ơn rất nhiều. Quay lại tập phim. Tiến sĩ Lisa Feldman Barrett, bạn có một hành trình sự nghiệp thật đáng chú ý và đầy những khúc quanh. Thật khó khăn để gói gọn nó trong một sứ mệnh cụ thể hoặc một tóm tắt cụ thể về hành trình mà bạn đã trải qua và những khúc quanh bạn đã trải qua. Nhưng nếu tôi hỏi bạn bây giờ bạn đang theo đuổi sứ mệnh nào với công việc mà bạn đang làm hiện tại, bạn có thể tóm tắt điều đó không? Mục tiêu của tôi, với tư cách là một người truyền thông khoa học, là cố gắng đưa những khoa học phức tạp và trình bày chúng theo cách mà mọi người có thể sử dụng. Bạn biết đấy, có thể họ sử dụng nó để làm vui bạn bè của họ trong một bữa tiệc tối. Có thể họ sử dụng nó để giúp đỡ đứa trẻ của họ, người đang gặp khó khăn với trầm cảm. Đó chắc chắn là điều mà tôi đã phải đối mặt. Có thể họ sử dụng nó để cải thiện nơi làm việc của họ hoặc nâng cao năng suất của đồng nghiệp của họ, hoặc bất cứ điều gì. Điểm quan trọng là, cuối cùng, đó chính là mục đích của khoa học. Nó là để, bạn biết đấy, sống một cuộc sống tốt hơn. Và những người bình thường, hàng ngày mà không có bằng tiến sĩ cũng có thể làm điều đó nếu họ có thông tin đúng. Có lẽ tôi đang cố gắng hiểu làm thế nào mà một bộ não như của chúng ta, gắn với một cơ thể như của chúng ta, được ngâm trong một thế giới như của chúng ta, tạo ra một tâm trí. Nó là gì? Điều gì đang xảy ra cho phép bạn có những suy nghĩ và cảm xúc và ký ức và hành động? Và một người đến từ một đất nước khác, một nền văn hóa khác, cũng có một đời sống tâm thần trông không giống như của bạn. Làm thế nào mà cùng một loại kế hoạch não với cùng một loại kế hoạch cơ thể chung có thể sản xuất ra những loại tâm trí khác nhau như vậy khi chúng đang, khi những bộ não đó được kết nối, theo một nghĩa nào đó, hoàn thành việc kết nối bản thân trong những bối cảnh văn hóa và thể chất rất khác biệt? Khi bạn vừa nói về việc theo đuổi sự hiểu biết về cách một bộ não như của chúng ta tạo ra tâm trí và thực tại mà chúng ta có, nếu tôi có thể hiểu tất cả những điều đó, như nhiều người đã đọc sách của bạn về bộ não và cảm xúc đều có thể hiểu, thì điều gì đó cung cấp cho tôi trong cuộc sống hàng ngày? Ôi Chúa ơi, nó mang đến cho bạn cơ hội có thêm quyền lực trong cuộc sống của bạn. Điều đó có nghĩa là gì? Nó có nghĩa là bạn có nhiều sự lựa chọn hơn. Nó có nghĩa là bạn có nhiều quyền kiểm soát hơn. Nó có nghĩa là bạn có thể kiến tạo cuộc sống của mình. Ý tôi là, bạn không thể kiểm soát mọi thứ xảy ra với bạn. Bạn không thể kiểm soát mọi khoảnh khắc của cảm xúc, nhưng bạn có nhiều quyền kiểm soát hơn những gì bạn nghĩ. Mọi người đều có nhiều quyền kiểm soát hơn những gì họ cảm thấy và những gì họ làm hơn những gì họ nghĩ. Quyền kiểm soát đó không giống như chúng ta mong đợi. Nó khó khăn hơn nhiều để khai thác hơn chúng ta muốn. Một số người có nhiều cơ hội hơn để có quyền kiểm soát đó hơn những người khác, nhưng mọi người đều có cơ hội để có nhiều quyền kiểm soát hơn. Và, tất nhiên, mặt trái cũng là nhiều trách nhiệm hơn đối với cách họ sống cuộc sống của mình. Và tôi nghĩ điều đó là rất tốt. Và tôi nghĩ điều đó là rất tốt ngay bây giờ khi bạn biết, các sự kiện trên thế giới đang xoay quanh bạn và bạn cảm thấy như mình chỉ đang bị cuốn trôi. Và ngay cả trong sự điên rồ đó, có những cơ hội để trở thành người kiến thiết trải nghiệm và cuộc sống của chính bạn hơn. Tôi nghĩ nhiều người thấy điều đó lạc quan và hữu ích. Vâng, vì cuộc sống có thể cảm thấy như chúng ta là những con rối và chúng ta chỉ đang phản ứng với những gì xảy ra xung quanh mình. Và nếu trời mưa bên ngoài, thì chúng ta buồn. Nếu một người nào đó gửi cho chúng ta một tin nhắn, thì chúng ta khó chịu.
    Và rằng chúng ta chỉ là những sinh vật phản ứng, phản ứng với bất cứ điều gì xảy ra xung quanh chúng ta. Nhưng bạn đang nói với tôi rằng nếu tôi hiểu rõ hơn về bộ não và cách nó hoạt động cũng như cảm xúc, thì tôi có thể giành lại một phần quyền kiểm soát đó và sống một cuộc đời có chủ đích hơn. Đúng rồi, chính xác. Và tôi nghĩ, đối với tôi, tôi bắt đầu sự nghiệp của mình bằng cách nghiên cứu bản chất của cảm xúc, nhưng thực sự, nó trở thành một chiếc đèn pin để hiểu cách bộ não hoạt động. Tại sao chúng ta lại có bộ não? Đó là một cơ quan rất đắt đỏ. Mảnh thịt giữa hai tai của bạn là cơ quan đắt đỏ nhất, về mặt trao đổi chất, mà bạn có. Vậy nó có ích gì? Chức năng cơ bản nhất của nó là gì? Nó hoạt động như thế nào liên quan đến cơ thể? Tôi nghĩ rằng chắc chắn trong chương trình của bạn, bạn đã có một số người nói về mối quan hệ giữa bộ não và cơ thể theo một cách nào đó. Nhưng tôi nghĩ các nhà khoa học trong một thời gian dài đã quên hoặc phớt lờ thực tế rằng bộ não gắn liền với một cơ thể, đúng không? Bởi vì chúng ta không cảm nhận được tất cả những kịch tính. Giống như ngay bây giờ, trong bạn, trong tôi, trong tất cả các thính giả của chúng ta, đúng không? Tất cả chúng ta đều có kiểu như kịch tính đang diễn ra. Nó thực sự khá mãnh liệt, và có rất nhiều điều đang diễn ra, và tôi hy vọng không ai trong số chúng ta đều nhận thức được điều đó. Nếu bạn nhận thức được điều đó, tôi thật sự rất tiếc. Nó có thể có nghĩa là, bạn biết đấy, bạn không cảm thấy tốt hôm nay. Nhưng điều tốt là chúng ta không nhận thức được những gì đang xảy ra bên trong cơ thể của chính mình hầu hết thời gian, vì nếu không, chúng ta sẽ không bao giờ quan tâm đến bất cứ điều gì bên ngoài da của chúng ta nữa, đúng không? Nhưng vấn đề là trong khoa học, nó thường bắt đầu bằng việc bắt đầu từ trải nghiệm chủ quan của chính bạn và sau đó cố gắng chính thức hóa điều đó. Và, ý tôi là, nếu bạn nhìn vào bất kỳ khoa học nào, vật lý cũng như vậy. Bạn chỉ cần quay ngược lại vài trăm năm hoặc có thể lâu hơn một chút để thấy điều đó. Và vì vậy, hóa ra rằng nhiều gì bạn trải nghiệm như những đặc tính của thế giới, về cách thế giới là, thực sự rất gắn liền với cách bộ não bạn điều chỉnh cơ thể của bạn. Và vì vậy tôi đoán tôi – tôi đã bắt đầu với cảm xúc, nhưng thực sự nó trở thành một dự án lớn hơn nhiều để cố gắng hiểu rằng, à, bộ não là gì? Nó được cấu trúc như thế nào? Nó đã tiến hóa như thế nào? Nó hoạt động như thế nào? Chức năng cơ bản nhất của nó là gì? Và tư tưởng, cảm xúc và hành động, các cảm nhận, chúng đóng vai trò gì trong chức năng đó? Vậy là câu hỏi này có phần đảo ngược, đúng không? Hầu hết mọi người bắt đầu bằng việc, cảm xúc là gì? Tư tưởng là gì? Ký ức là gì? Họ định nghĩa nó, và sau đó họ đi tìm cơ sở vật chất của nó trong bộ não hoặc trong cơ thể. Đó là một quan điểm khá cạn kiệt. Tôi có ý nói, sau một trăm năm, không có câu trả lời thực sự tốt. Vì vậy, chúng tôi đã đảo ngược nó và chúng tôi nói, được rồi, xét tới việc chúng ta có loại bộ não mà chúng ta có, nó có thể làm gì? Nó làm gì? Và trong chức năng bình thường của nó, nó tạo ra các sự kiện tâm lý như thế nào? Trong văn hóa của chúng ta, tư tưởng và cảm xúc và cảm nhận và hành động, trong những nền văn hóa khác, có những tập hợp tính năng khác nhau, đúng không? Vì vậy, đối với chúng ta, một tư tưởng và một tư tưởng và một cảm xúc thì rất khác biệt. Chúng ta trải nghiệm chúng như rất tách biệt. Thực tế, thực sự từ thời của Plato, chúng ta đã có kiểu như tài liệu này mà, bạn biết đấy, tâm trí hoặc bộ não là một chiến trường giữa các tư tưởng và cảm xúc của bạn, đúng không? Trong việc kiểm soát hành động của bạn, nếu tư tưởng của bạn thắng, bạn là một sinh vật lý trí, bạn là một sinh vật khỏe mạnh, bạn là một sinh vật đạo đức. Nếu bản năng và cảm xúc của bạn thắng, bạn biết đấy, con quái vật bên trong bạn, thì bạn trở nên vô trách nhiệm, bạn trẻ con, bạn vô đạo đức, bạn có vấn đề về tâm thần. Đó là câu chuyện mà chúng tôi làm việc trong đó. Trong một số nền văn hóa, tư tưởng và cảm xúc không tách rời. Chúng thực sự không phải là bạn có chúng cùng lúc, mà chúng là một thứ. Chúng là các đặc điểm của một sự kiện tâm lý duy nhất. Trong một số nền văn hóa, cơ thể và tâm trí của bạn không tách rời. Không có trải nghiệm nào riêng biệt giữa một cảm giác vật lý và một cảm xúc tâm lý. Chúng thực sự là một thứ. Vì vậy, tâm trí của chúng ta không phải là bản chất con người, nó chỉ là một bản chất con người, và cũng có những bản chất con người khác. Và chúng ta phải tìm ra cách mà kế hoạch não bộ tổng quát, một kế hoạch cơ thể tổng quát cho một con người bình thường, sản xuất ra sự biến đổi rộng lớn như vậy tùy thuộc vào ngữ cảnh văn hóa nơi nó phát triển. Liên quan đến khoa học thần kinh và hiểu bộ não và cách chúng ta tạo ra thực tại, có phải có một khoảnh khắc “eureka” đối với bạn khi bạn nhận ra rằng hầu hết trong số chúng ta đều hiểu sai? Hoặc rằng có một hiểu lầm cơ bản về cách bộ não của chúng ta tạo ra thực tại của chúng ta? Tôi sẽ nói, vâng, chắc chắn, có một khoảnh khắc “eureka”, nhưng nó là một quá trình dài và chậm. Khi tôi là sinh viên sau đại học, tôi không nghiên cứu cảm xúc. Tôi nghiên cứu về cái tôi. Bạn nghĩ về bản thân mình như thế nào? Thế nào là sự tự tin của bạn? Bạn hình dung về bản thân mình như thế nào? Đây là một chủ đề quan trọng trong tâm lý học. Và tôi đã đo lường cảm xúc như một biến đầu ra, và các phép đo không, các phép đo không hoạt động. Và tôi nghĩ, vâng, tôi cần phải có thể đo lường một cách khách quan khi ai đó tức giận hoặc khi họ buồn hoặc khi họ hạnh phúc. Tôi không muốn phải hỏi họ, vì họ có thể sai. Và trong cách đặt câu hỏi đó, có một giả định, đúng không, rằng có một trạng thái khách quan gọi là tức giận, rằng nhìn chung, hầu hết các trường hợp tức giận sẽ trông giống nhau bất kể người và bối cảnh. Và tôi rất nhanh chóng nhận ra rằng không có bản chất nào mà bất kỳ ai đã có thể khám phá ra, đúng không? Vì vậy, gần đây, trong vài năm qua, các nhà nghiên cứu đã thực hiện một phân tích tổng hợp, tức là một tóm tắt thống kê lớn của hàng trăm và hàng trăm và hàng trăm thí nghiệm. Và những gì họ phát hiện ra là, và chỉ trong các nền văn hóa đô thị, đúng không? Chúng tôi thậm chí không nói về các nền văn hóa xa xôi bây giờ. Chỉ trong các nền văn hóa đô thị, khi ai đó tức giận, mọi người sẽ nhăn mặt khoảng 35% thời gian khi họ tức giận. Một cái nhăn mặt thì giống như một… Giống như một cái nhăn mặt, như một…
    Đúng rồi, bạn biết đấy, bạn nhíu mày, bạn cau mày, đúng không?
    Được rồi.
    Nhưng điều đó có nghĩa là 65% thời gian khi mọi người tức giận, họ đang làm điều gì đó có nghĩa với khuôn mặt của họ.
    Và một nửa thời gian khi mọi người cau có, họ không tức giận, họ đang cảm thấy điều gì đó khác.
    Họ có thể đang tập trung rất cao độ.
    Bạn có thể vừa kể cho họ một câu đùa tồi.
    Họ có thể bị đầy bụng.
    Bạn biết đấy, cái cau mày không phải là biểu cảm của sự tức giận.
    Nó có thể là biểu cảm của sự tức giận trong một số bối cảnh.
    Và nó cũng là biểu cảm của các trạng thái khác trong các bối cảnh khác.
    Vì vậy, điều này có nghĩa là, bạn biết đấy, không có một biểu cảm nào thật sự đáng tin cậy cho sự tức giận mà chỉ riêng cho sự tức giận.
    Và điều này cũng đúng cho mọi cảm xúc khác đã từng được nghiên cứu.
    Rất rõ ràng là bạn đang trong trạng thái tức giận hay buồn bã hay chọn bất kỳ cảm xúc nào.
    Bạn biết đấy, nhịp tim của bạn có thể tăng lên, có thể giảm xuống, hoặc có thể giữ nguyên.
    Huyết áp của bạn có thể tăng lên, có thể giảm xuống, hoặc có thể giữ nguyên.
    Sinh lý học đang diễn ra trong cơ thể bạn liên quan đến sự chuẩn bị của não bộ cho các hành vi cụ thể.
    Vậy nên hãy bắt đầu từ đó.
    Vậy não dự đoán là ý tưởng mà tôi chỉ biết từ bạn.
    Tôi chưa bao giờ nghe thấy điều này trước đây.
    Khi chúng ta nói về não dự đoán, điều đó có nghĩa là gì?
    Và điều đó không có nghĩa là gì?
    Vì vậy, khi bạn sống cuộc sống hàng ngày của mình.
    Vâng.
    Như ngay bây giờ.
    Như ngay bây giờ.
    Vậy ngay bây giờ, tôi đoán rằng tôi đang nói những điều với bạn và bạn đang cảm nhận những gì tôi nói và sau đó bạn đang phản ứng với điều đó.
    Đó là cảm giác của bạn đúng không?
    Ừ.
    Được rồi.
    Và đó cũng là cảm giác của tôi.
    Vì vậy, chúng ta cảm nhận và sau đó chúng ta phản ứng.
    Đó là cách mà hầu hết mọi người trải nghiệm bản thân trong thế giới.
    Thực ra, điều đó không phải là những gì đang diễn ra bên trong.
    Thực sự đang diễn ra là não, não của bạn không phản ứng, nó đang dự đoán.
    Và điều đó có nghĩa là nếu chúng ta ngừng thời gian ngay bây giờ, chỉ cần dừng lại, não của bạn sẽ ở trong một trạng thái và nó sẽ nhớ lại những trải nghiệm trong quá khứ tương tự như trạng thái này như một cách để dự đoán những gì sẽ làm tiếp theo.
    Chẳng hạn, trong khoảnh khắc tiếp theo.
    Mắt của bạn có nên di chuyển không?
    Nhịp tim của bạn có nên tăng lên không?
    Hơi thở của bạn có nên thay đổi không?
    Mạch máu của bạn có nên giãn nở hay co lại không?
    Bạn có nên chuẩn bị để đứng dậy không?
    Đúng không?
    Vì vậy, bên trong não bạn đang dự đoán những chuyển động mà nó nên thực hiện tiếp theo.
    Và vì vậy, bạn sẽ trải nghiệm những gì sẽ xảy ra do những chuyển động đó.
    Vì vậy, bạn hành động trước và sau đó bạn cảm nhận.
    Bạn không cảm nhận rồi mới phản ứng.
    Bạn dự đoán hành động và sau đó bạn cảm nhận.
    Vậy hãy đưa tôi một ví dụ để làm rõ việc não của tôi đang dự đoán và sau đó hành động.
    Được rồi.
    Vì vậy, ngay bây giờ bạn và tôi đang có một cuộc trò chuyện và tôi đang nói và bạn đang lắng nghe.
    Và điều thực sự đang diễn ra trong não của bạn là dựa trên hàng triệu lần lặp lại việc nghe ngôn ngữ, não của bạn đang dự đoán, thực sự dự đoán từng từ sẽ phát ra từ miệng tôi.
    Ừ.
    Được rồi.
    Và điều đó sẽ gây ngạc nhiên như thế nào nếu tôi không nói là miệng, mà tôi nói ra một lỗ nào đó khác trên cơ thể tôi mà âm thanh phát ra từ đó.
    Điều đó sẽ thật sự gây ngạc nhiên vì não của bạn đang dự đoán điều đó.
    Não của bạn luôn dự đoán và nó sẽ chỉnh sửa những dự đoán đó khi chúng không chính xác.
    Và, bạn biết đấy, tôi có một video mà tôi thường chiếu khi tôi thuyết trình cho các nhà khoa học hoặc cho dân thường.
    Tôi đang thuyết trình và nó tạo ra một tình huống mà họ có thể dự đoán điều gì đó và họ có thể cảm thấy rằng một dự đoán không chỉ là một suy nghĩ trừu tượng.
    Suy nghĩ, não của bạn thực sự đang thay đổi sự phát xung của chính các nơ-ron cảm giác của nó để dự đoán các cảm giác sắp tới.
    Vì vậy, bạn bắt đầu cảm thấy những cảm giác này trước khi các tín hiệu thực sự đến để bạn nhận biết chúng.
    Bạn bắt đầu có trải nghiệm trước khi thế giới đưa cho bạn những tín hiệu đó.
    Tôi đã đọc, tôi nghĩ là trong cuốn sách của bạn, nhưng có thể là ở nơi khác về ví dụ về việc khát nước.
    Vì vậy, khi bạn uống, giả sử bạn rất khát và bạn uống một cốc nước lớn, khi nào bạn không còn khát nữa?
    Hầu như ngay lập tức.
    Nhưng thực ra, mất 20 phút để nước được hấp thụ vào dòng máu của bạn và đi đến não để báo cho não rằng bạn không còn cần chất lỏng nữa.
    Vì trong hàng triệu cơ hội, bạn đã học rằng một số cử động nhất định ở hiện tại và một số tín hiệu cảm giác nhất định ở hiện tại sẽ dẫn đến trạng thái tâm lý đó.
    Hoặc đây là một ví dụ khác.
    Vậy ngay bây giờ, hãy giữ mắt bạn trên tôi.
    Bạn đang nhìn thẳng vào tôi.
    Và trong mắt tâm trí của bạn, tôi muốn bạn tưởng tượng một quả táo Macintosh, như không phải là một máy tính, mà là một miếng trái cây thực tế.
    Được rồi.
    Bạn có thể làm điều đó không?
    Có.
    Bạn có thấy không?
    Có.
    Nó có màu gì?
    Xanh.
    Được rồi.
    Nó có màu đỏ không?
    Không.
    Được rồi.
    Vậy đó là một quả táo Granny Smith.
    Ừ.
    Được rồi.
    Nó có vị gì?
    Hãy tưởng tượng, tưởng tượng rằng bạn đang nắm lấy nó.
    Ừ.
    Cắn vào nó.
    Nghe tiếng giòn của quả táo.
    Nó có vị gì?
    Nó ngọt.
    Có chút chua có phải không?
    Ừ, ừ.
    Ừ.
    Nó có nước không?
    Rất nhiều nước.
    Ừ.
    Vì vậy, nếu tôi đang chụp ảnh não của bạn ngay bây giờ, những gì tôi sẽ thấy là tôi sẽ thấy sự thay đổi trong tín hiệu liên quan đến hoạt động thần kinh trong vỏ não thị giác của bạn, ngay cả khi không có quả táo trước mặt bạn.
    Và tôi sẽ thấy sự thay đổi trong hoạt động trong vỏ não thính giác của bạn, ngay cả khi bạn không thực sự nghe thấy tiếng giòn.
    Miệng của tôi cũng đang ứa nước bọt.
    Và miệng của bạn đang ứa nước bọt.
    Và thực tế, mỗi lần bạn ngồi xuống để ăn, não của bạn chỉ đạo các tuyến nước bọt của bạn sản xuất nhiều nước bọt hơn để chuẩn bị cho bạn ăn và tiêu hóa thức ăn.
    Điều đó thường xảy ra trước cả khi ngồi xuống để ăn.
    Tất cả điều đó là dự đoán.
    Tất cả những điều đó là não của bạn đang chuẩn bị cho những gì sắp đến.
    Bởi vì dự đoán và điều chỉnh là một cách hiệu quả hơn để điều hành một hệ thần kinh, thực sự bất kỳ hệ thống nào, hơn là phản ứng với thế giới.
    Đây là một ví dụ khác.
    Bạn có uống cà phê không?
    Có.
    Được rồi.
    Bạn có uống cà phê mỗi ngày vào cùng một thời điểm không?
    Thường thì có.
    Được rồi.
    Và bạn có phải là một trong những người nếu bỏ lỡ cà phê vào thời điểm đó thì sẽ bị đau đầu không?
    Ý tôi là, điều đó đã xảy ra trước đây.
    Vâng.
    Ồ, tôi từng là một người uống rất nhiều cà phê.
    Và tôi thích cà phê, nhưng tôi không uống nữa.
    Nhưng tôi thích nó.
    Và tôi luôn uống vào cùng một thời điểm mỗi ngày.
    Và nếu tôi không uống, vào thời điểm đó trong ngày, tôi sẽ bị đau đầu dữ dội.
    Và lý do là, điều này thực sự đúng với mọi loại thuốc bạn dùng, mọi thứ nào ảnh hưởng đến sinh lý của bạn, nếu bạn làm điều đó thường xuyên, thì bộ não của bạn sẽ bắt đầu mong đợi điều đó.
    Và điều đó có nghĩa là, mong đợi điều đó, là cà phê có các hóa chất có thể làm co mạch máu của bạn ở khắp mọi nơi.
    Nhưng trong não, não đang cố gắng giữ lưu lượng máu ổn định và đồng đều.
    Vì vậy, nếu mỗi ngày vào lúc 8 giờ sáng, bạn uống thứ gì đó sẽ làm co mạch máu, thì vào khoảng 7:55, tôi không biết thời gian chính xác, nhưng một chút trước 8 giờ, bộ não của bạn sẽ giãn nở các mạch máu.
    Để chuẩn bị cho sự co thắt đó, vì vậy chúng duy trì ổn định.
    Và nếu bạn không uống chất đó, thì bạn sẽ có sự giãn nở lớn và bị một cơn đau đầu rất, rất tồi tệ.
    Tôi chỉ tự hỏi về điều đó, khi bạn đang nói, tôi nghĩ bạn sẽ nói về việc đôi khi khi tôi đặt báo thức, tôi dường như thức dậy trước báo thức khoảng năm phút.
    Vâng, chắc chắn rồi.
    Đó là một ví dụ.
    Đây là một ví dụ khác.
    Tập thể dục.
    Nếu bạn muốn chơi quần vợt tốt hơn, nếu bạn muốn chạy một dặm nhanh hơn, bạn sẽ làm gì?
    Tập luyện.
    Tập luyện.
    Và bạn thực hiện cùng một động tác nhiều lần.
    Và bạn trở nên tốt hơn và nhanh hơn.
    Và bạn tiêu tốn ít calo hơn.
    Bạn trở nên hiệu quả hơn.
    Tại sao?
    Bởi vì bộ não của bạn dự đoán rất tốt.
    Đó chính là cơ chế nhớ cơ bắp.
    Nó không phải là một trí nhớ thực sự trong cơ bắp của bạn.
    Đó là một trí nhớ trong bộ não của bạn.
    Bộ não của bạn điều khiển các cơ bắp của bạn.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn thực hành cùng một bộ động tác nhiều lần, bạn sẽ trở nên rất hiệu quả với chúng vì bộ não của bạn có thể dự đoán tốt hơn.
    Bây giờ, nếu bạn là người tập thể dục vì bạn muốn trở nên khỏe mạnh hơn hoặc bạn muốn giảm cân hoặc bạn, đúng không, bạn không muốn tập cùng một bài tập lặp đi lặp lại vì bạn sẽ tiêu tốn ít calo hơn do bạn đang trở nên hiệu quả.
    Đó là mục tiêu, đúng không?
    Nếu ai đó gọi bạn mỗi 30 giây với một bộ động tác khác nhau và bạn không thể dự đoán chúng là gì, thì bộ não của bạn sẽ đưa ra một dự đoán.
    Nó sẽ sai.
    Bạn sẽ phải điều chỉnh.
    Và vì vậy bạn sẽ tiêu tốn nhiều calo hơn và bạn sẽ tự mất cân bằng, mà chúng ta gọi là allostasis.
    Vì vậy, bạn trở nên mất cân bằng và sau đó bộ não của bạn phải làm việc để đưa nó trở lại.
    Và đó là một hình thức tập luyện khác.
    Hai hình thức tập luyện khác nhau này hoàn toàn dựa trên thực tế rằng đôi khi bạn muốn có thể dự đoán tốt hơn.
    Đôi khi bạn muốn có thể phá vỡ bản thân và nhanh chóng quay trở lại, đúng không?
    Vì vậy, về cơ bản, bạn đang học cách tiếp nhận lỗi dự đoán, những tín hiệu bạn không thể dự đoán, và điều chỉnh với chúng.
    Điều này nói gì về bản chất của chấn thương và các bệnh tâm thần khác như trầm cảm, lo âu, v.v.?
    Bởi vì đây có phải là một sự sai lệch trong dự đoán của tôi không?
    Tôi nói điều này vì dự đoán dựa vào một cái gì đó xảy ra trong quá khứ và hình thành một khuôn mẫu, giống như một hệ thống nhận diện khuôn mẫu.
    Vì vậy, nếu tôi lớn lên và có những khuôn mẫu mà giờ đây không còn.
    Nếu tôi lớn lên và mỗi lần một người đàn ông bước vào phòng, anh ta đánh tôi.
    Và bây giờ khi một người đàn ông bước vào phòng và tôi 35 tuổi, tôi đang nhận được dự đoán tương tự trong bộ não.
    Vì vậy, tôi có nỗi sợ hãi với đàn ông, ví dụ như vậy.
    Điều này có phần nào giải thích chấn thương thời thơ ấu và tại sao việc quên đi nó lại khó khăn và tại sao khi là người lớn chúng ta đôi khi phải sống những cuộc đời không bình thường?
    Tôi sẽ nói rằng, một nguyên tắc chung, thì đúng vậy.
    Có rất nhiều, bạn biết đấy, quỷ nằm trong chi tiết, đúng không?
    Nhưng vâng, chắc chắn.
    Vì vậy, chấn thương không phải là điều gì đó xảy ra trong thế giới đối với bạn.
    Mọi thứ bạn trải qua là sự kết hợp giữa quá khứ đã nhớ và hiện tại cảm nhận.
    Có thể có một sự kiện bất lợi xảy ra.
    Bạn đang ở trong một trận động đất.
    Ai đó bị chết gần bạn.
    Một điều gì đó tồi tệ xảy ra với bạn.
    Ai đó làm tổn thương bạn theo một cách nào đó.
    Có thể có một sự kiện bất lợi không phải là chấn thương đối với bạn.
    Bởi vì bạn không sử dụng những trải nghiệm trong quá khứ để hiểu rõ nó như một chấn thương.
    Ngược lại, một điều gì đó có thể, với người khác, là trải nghiệm hàng ngày, với bạn lại gắn liền với một loạt kỷ niệm rất chấn thương.
    Chúng rất chấn thương.
    Những sự kiện đó rất chấn thương.
    Và vì vậy đối với bạn, đó là một chấn thương.
    Vì vậy, chấn thương không phải là một cái gì đó khách quan trong thế giới.
    Cũng không hoàn toàn trong tâm trí bạn.
    Chấn thương là một thuộc tính của mối quan hệ giữa những gì đã xảy ra với bạn trong quá khứ và những gì đang xảy ra trong hiện tại.
    Đây là một ví dụ.
    Có một nhà nhân chủng học đang làm việc tại Đại học Emory.
    Và cô ấy nghiên cứu người dân ở nhiều nền văn hóa khác nhau.
    Và cô ấy nghiên cứu chấn thương trong nhiều nền văn hóa khác nhau.
    Và có một cô gái mà cô ấy đã viết về, một nghiên cứu trường hợp của một cô gái tên là Maria, cô ấy là một thiếu nữ trẻ.
    Và cô ấy sống trong một nền văn hóa nơi mà việc đàn ông có thể rất mạnh mẽ với phụ nữ và gái trẻ là điều bình thường hơn.
    Vì vậy, trong văn hóa của chúng ta, chúng ta sẽ nói đó là bạo lực thể chất.
    Nhưng trong văn hóa của cô ấy, đây chỉ là những gì đàn ông làm.
    Cô ấy không cảm thấy, vì vậy, cha kế của cô ấy đã đánh cô ấy.
    Và cô ấy không thích điều đó.
    Nhưng cô ấy không có dấu hiệu nào của chấn thương.
    Cách cô ấy hiểu điều đó là: đàn ông chỉ là những kẻ ngốc.
    Nó thực sự là một kiểu, đây không phải là về tôi.
    Đây là về họ.
    Nó không dễ chịu, nhưng cô ấy vẫn ngủ tốt.
    Điểm số của cô ấy ở trường cũng tốt.
    Cô ấy có bạn bè.
    Cô ấy không có bất kỳ dấu hiệu nào của chấn thương cả.
    Rồi cô ấy đã xem Oprah.
    Cô ấy đã nghe tất cả những người phụ nữ này nói về việc từng là nạn nhân của lạm dụng thể xác từ bạn trai, cha hoặc, bạn biết đấy, chồng của họ.
    Cô ấy nhận ra sự tương đồng trong các tình huống thể chất mà những người phụ nữ này mô tả và tình huống thể chất của chính cô.
    Cô cũng quan sát thấy họ trải qua, như bạn biết đấy, các triệu chứng của chấn thương.
    Đột nhiên, cô bắt đầu gặp khó khăn trong việc ngủ.
    Điểm số của cô giảm xuống.
    Cô gặp khó khăn trong việc tập trung.
    Và cô trở nên cách ly với xã hội.
    Cách cô tạo ra ý nghĩa, cách cô, nếu bạn nghĩ về chuyển động thể chất như những hành động, cô đã tạo ra ý nghĩa khác về những hành động đó.
    Và cô trải qua chấn thương mà trước đây cô không cảm thấy.
    Bây giờ, nếu bạn là người tin rằng có một thế giới khách quan bên ngoài, nơi mà, bạn biết đấy.
    Nguyên nhân và hệ quả.
    Đúng vậy.
    Thực sự có một loại chấn thương tiềm ẩn nào đó trong cô và trước đây cô không trải qua, nhưng sau đó nó như được kích hoạt.
    Và sau đó cô có thể, bạn có thể kể một câu chuyện hoàn chỉnh như vậy và mọi người vẫn kể những câu chuyện hoàn chỉnh như vậy, nhưng đó không phải là những gì bằng chứng khoa học tốt nhất cho thấy đang xảy ra.
    Những gì đang xảy ra là các chuyển động thể chất vẫn giống nhau.
    Trải nghiệm tâm lý về những chuyển động đó là khác nhau bởi vì trải nghiệm là sự kết hợp của hiện tại cảm giác, hiện tại thể chất và quá khứ được ghi nhớ.
    Và bạn cần cả hai để có một loại trải nghiệm cụ thể.
    Vì vậy, cách mô tả điều gì đã xảy ra với quỹ đạo của Maria là cô đã trải qua điều gì đó như một khía cạnh không may của cuộc sống thể chất.
    Và sau đó điều đó trở thành về cô.
    Nó trở thành điều gì đó, không phải, không phải người này đang làm điều gì đó xấu, mà là người này đang làm điều gì đó xấu với cô vì chính ai cô là.
    Và cô cũng được chỉ cho cách mà cô nên phản ứng với điều đó bằng cách xem chương trình của Oprah và xem những cá nhân khác phản ứng theo một cách nhất định.
    Đúng vậy.
    Vì vậy, nó trở thành điều về cô như một con người, không chỉ là, bạn biết đấy, cha dượng của cô là một kẻ tồi tệ.
    Và nếu bạn nghĩ về nó, những gì chúng ta làm trong văn hóa này, khi mọi người đi trị liệu vì chấn thương, đúng vậy, là chúng ta đang cố gắng đảo ngược narrative.
    Vì vậy, chúng ta cố gắng dạy mọi người rằng không phải khi điều gì đó chấn thương xảy ra với họ, là, và tôi muốn nói rõ điều này, đúng không?
    Và tôi không nói rằng khi mọi người trải qua chấn thương, đó là lỗi của họ.
    Tôi không có ý nói rằng họ có trách nhiệm về những gì đã xảy ra với họ.
    Nhưng đôi khi trong cuộc sống, bạn có trách nhiệm thay đổi điều gì đó, không phải vì bạn có lỗi, mà vì bạn là người duy nhất có thể làm điều đó.
    Trách nhiệm thuộc về bạn.
    Và vì vậy trong văn hóa này, chúng ta cố gắng dạy những người đã trải qua chấn thương rằng họ có thể trải nghiệm những sự kiện thể chất đã xảy ra với họ trong quá khứ theo một cách khác.
    Và khi họ làm vậy, họ không còn cảm thấy bị chấn thương nữa.
    Cái tư duy của tôi cảm thấy choáng váng vì nhiều lý do khác nhau, vì đây là một sự chuyển mình thực sự khi nghĩ rằng chúng ta đang gán nghĩa cho những điều đã xảy ra trong quá khứ của mình.
    Và đôi khi ý nghĩa đó đến từ việc xem người khác gán nghĩa cho nó.
    Và chúng ta đang thừa hưởng ý nghĩa đó mà…
    Ồ, đúng vậy.
    Đó được gọi là di sản văn hóa.
    Nó giống như một văn hóa, giống như một sự lây lan.
    Vì vậy, hóa ra rằng, bạn biết đấy, có một loại lý thuyết tiến hóa cũ, đúng không?
    Được gọi là tổng hợp hiện đại, nơi di sản thực sự là gen của bạn.
    Bạn thừa hưởng, bất cứ điều gì bạn thừa hưởng, bạn thừa hưởng qua gen của bạn, và sau đó sự chọn lọc tự nhiên, bạn biết đấy, chọn một số mẫu gen và không chọn những cái khác.
    Và đó thực sự là cách di sản hoạt động qua các thế hệ.
    Phần lớn các nhà sinh học tiến hóa không còn giữ quan điểm đó nữa, bởi vì hầu hết, có rất nhiều cách để thừa hưởng mọi thứ.
    Và nhiều điều mà chúng ta nghĩ là di sản thực sự giống như cái được gọi là biến đổi biểu sinh, nghĩa là nó không liên quan nhiều đến DNA.
    Và tôi sẽ nói, cách mà tôi thích nói là chúng ta có các loại bản chất mà yêu cầu có sự nuôi dưỡng.
    Chúng ta có các loại gen mà yêu cầu kinh nghiệm trước khi bất cứ điều gì được định hình trong não của chúng ta.
    Và hầu hết các đặc điểm của chúng ta hoạt động theo cách đó.
    Rất ít đặc điểm chỉ hoạt động chỉ bằng gen thôi.
    Điều luôn xảy ra trong một bộ não bình thường là bạn được sinh ra với bộ não chưa hoàn chỉnh, đúng không?
    Một bộ não trưởng thành, chúng ta nói rằng nó được định hình cho thế giới của nó.
    Thế giới đó bao gồm chính cơ thể bạn.
    Nhưng một đứa trẻ không phải là, bộ não của một đứa trẻ không phải là bộ não của người lớn thu nhỏ.
    Nó là một bộ não đang chờ đợi các chỉ dẫn về cách định hình từ thế giới và từ chính cơ thể của nó.
    Vì vậy, não của bạn được định hình để bạn có thể nhìn ra ngoài bằng đôi mắt mà được đặt ở khoảng cách chính xác từ nhau.
    Nếu bằng cách nào đó, bạn biết đấy, kỳ diệu, chúng ta có thể cấy ghép bộ não của bạn vào sọ của người khác, bạn sẽ không thể nhìn ra ngoài từ sọ đó.
    Bạn sẽ không thể nhìn ra ngoài bằng những đôi mắt đó vì chúng không ở đúng vị trí.
    Bạn nghe bằng tai, khả năng nghe của bạn đến từ các tín hiệu được định hình bởi hình dạng của tai bạn.
    Vì vậy, não của bạn được định hình để nghe bằng những tai này, chứ không phải bất kỳ tai nào, những tai này.
    Tương tự, bạn, khi còn là một đứa trẻ, bạn được dạy những ý nghĩa của các tín hiệu thể chất.
    Bạn được dạy cách để hiểu những điều này.
    Đó được gọi là di sản văn hóa.
    Nhiều điều mà chúng ta nghĩ là được lập trình sẵn vào não thực sự được thừa hưởng văn hóa qua các thế hệ.
    Đó là cách mà mọi người sống sót trong một môi trường cụ thể.
    Bạn biết đấy, vào những năm 1800 và 1900 khi những người khám phá ra ngoài và đi đến Antarctica hoặc đâu đó và họ nhanh chóng chết.
    Người Inuit sống ở đó.
    Họ sống rất ổn.
    Thực ra là vì họ có kiến thức được thừa hưởng văn hóa.
    Chúng ta luôn truyền tải kiến thức cho nhau.
    Và kiến thức đó trở thành thức ăn cho các dự đoán của chính chúng ta.
    Vì vậy, các dự đoán của bạn không chỉ đến từ kinh nghiệm cá nhân của bạn.
    Chúng cũng đến từ việc bạn xem ti vi, bạn nói chuyện với khách, bạn đọc sách, xem phim.
    Cũng như phần lớn bộ não của con người, bộ não của bạn có khả năng làm điều gì đó thực sự tuyệt vời, đó là bạn có thể lấy các mảnh ghép của kinh nghiệm trong quá khứ và kết hợp chúng lại theo một cách hoàn toàn mới, để bạn có thể sử dụng quá khứ để trải nghiệm một điều gì đó mới mà bạn chưa bao giờ trải qua trước đây.
    Bạn đã nói cách đây một giây rằng các nhà trị liệu cố gắng khiến bạn nghĩ về quá khứ theo một cách khác. Nhưng tôi thật sự nghĩ rằng có một niềm tin tiềm ẩn trong nền văn hóa và xã hội của chúng ta, trên mạng xã hội, rằng nếu điều gì đó xảy ra với bạn, gần như như một cách tiếp cận Freudian rằng nếu điều này xảy ra với bạn, đây chính là con người bạn trở thành.
    Tôi đã đọc cuốn sách “Courage to be disliked” trong dịp Giáng sinh và nó đã thay đổi quan điểm của tôi về điều này một cách sâu sắc và quan trọng, vì nó giúp tôi hiểu. Tôi nghĩ nó cơ bản nói rằng những gì xảy ra với chúng ta không tạo ra con người chúng ta. Chúng ta sử dụng những gì xảy ra với chúng ta và áp dụng ý nghĩa cho nó, điều này sẽ xác định hành vi của chúng ta.
    Và điều thú vị là, điều này đồng nghĩa với việc nhiều niềm tin mà tôi có về chính mình, về việc tôi nói tôi là ai, danh tính của tôi và vì vậy những cách mà tôi hành xử hàng ngày, cho dù chúng có hiệu quả hay không, thực ra chỉ là những lựa chọn tôi đã đưa ra để áp dụng ý nghĩa cho quá khứ.
    Có phải điều đó có nghĩa không? Hoàn toàn có nghĩa.
    Và đây thực sự là một điều sâu sắc, tôi không biết bất kỳ ai đang nghe hiện tại có hiểu những gì tôi đang nói không, nhưng chúng ta đã nói ở đầu cuộc trò chuyện này rằng bạn sống qua cuộc đời này trong suy nghĩ rằng bạn là một con rối và bạn bị điều khiển bởi những gì đã xảy ra với bạn, ai là bạn, danh tính của bạn. Nhưng thực tế, danh tính của bạn chỉ là một cấu trúc ý nghĩa mà bạn đã đưa ra cho quá khứ để phục vụ mục đích hiện tại của bạn, như cuốn sách nói.
    Đúng, tôi sẽ nói điều đó hơi khác một chút, nhưng thông điệp là như nhau. Tôi nghĩ trong khoảnh khắc cảm giác hiện tại, đúng không, có những hình ảnh, âm thanh, mùi vị, có những thứ đang diễn ra bên trong cơ thể của bạn, đúng không? Và những tín hiệu này đang gửi tới não của bạn. Chúng không có ý nghĩa tâm lý vốn có. Chúng không có ý nghĩa cảm xúc vốn có. Chúng không có ý nghĩa tinh thần vốn có. Điều mà tạo ra ý nghĩa cho chúng là những ký ức của bạn từ quá khứ. Bạn đang tạo ra, bạn là một người tạo ra ý nghĩa. Ý nghĩa không phải là một tập hợp các đặc điểm như định nghĩa từ điển.
    Vậy ý nghĩa của cái cốc này không phải là nó được làm từ kim loại và chúng ta chắc chắn có thể nói về những đặc điểm đó, nhưng ý nghĩa của cái cốc này trong khoảnh khắc này là những gì tôi làm với nó. Nó có thể là một cái bình để uống. Nó có thể là một vũ khí. Nó có thể là, bạn biết đấy, một chiếc bình hoa. Nó có thể là một cốc đo lường. Ý nghĩa của cái bình là những gì tôi làm với nó trong khoảnh khắc. Đó là ý nghĩa của nó. Và vì vậy, ý nghĩa của cái bình không nằm trong cái bình. Nó cũng không chỉ nằm trong đầu tôi. Ý nghĩa là sự giao dịch. Đó là mối quan hệ giữa các đặc điểm của cái bình này, đối tượng này, và các tín hiệu trong não tôi, điều đang tạo ra hành động của tôi.
    Thực tế, ngay cả việc cái này là một đối tượng rắn, thuộc tính rắn chắc không nằm trong đối tượng. Đó là vì tôi có một cơ thể thuộc loại nhất định với những đặc điểm nhất định khiến tôi trải nghiệm cái này như một đối tượng rắn. Tính rắn chắc không nằm trong tôi và cũng không nằm trong đối tượng. Nó nằm trong mối quan hệ giữa hai bên. Điều đó có nghĩa là mọi thứ, mọi trải nghiệm bạn có đều phần nào do chính bạn tạo ra. Bạn không có cảm giác tác động về điều đó vì nó xảy ra thật tự động. Nó đang xảy ra tự động ngay lúc này khi chúng ta đang nói chuyện. Nó xảy ra nhanh hơn bạn có thể chớp mắt. Nhưng nó vẫn đang diễn ra. Điều đó có nghĩa là nếu bạn là một phần, ngay cả khi bạn không có cảm giác tác động, bạn cũng một phần nào đó kiểm soát và vì vậy cũng có trách nhiệm cho ý nghĩa đang được tạo ra.
    Và khi tôi nói ở đầu cuộc trò chuyện rằng mục tiêu của tôi là cố gắng, như một người truyền thông khoa học, cố gắng giải thích cho mọi người rằng họ có nhiều kiểm soát hơn trong cuộc sống của họ. Họ có nhiều kiểm soát hơn về việc họ là ai trong bất kỳ khoảnh khắc nào hơn là họ nghĩ. Để mang lại cho họ nhiều khả năng hơn trong cuộc sống của họ. Đây chính xác là những gì tôi có ý nghĩa.
    Bạn không có một danh tính bền vững. Bạn là ai trong khoảnh khắc hành động của bạn. Và hành động là sự kết hợp giữa quá khứ đã được nhớ lại, những thứ mà bộ não bạn đang sử dụng để dự đoán, mà bộ não bạn tự động lắp ráp, và hiện tại cảm giác, đúng không?
    Vậy nếu bạn muốn thay đổi ai đó, bạn muốn thay đổi những gì bạn cảm nhận, bạn muốn thay đổi tác động của bạn đến người khác, bạn có vài lựa chọn. Bạn có thể cố gắng quay trở lại quá khứ và thay đổi ý nghĩa của những gì đã xảy ra trước đây để bạn sẽ nhớ theo cách khác, bạn sẽ dự đoán khác trong tương lai. Đó chính là tâm lý học trị liệu. Đó chính là những cuộc trò chuyện chân thành lúc 2 giờ sáng với bạn bè của bạn, hay gì đó. Điều đó thực sự rất khó khăn. Nó không phải lúc nào cũng hiệu quả tốt.
    Cái khác mà bạn có thể làm là nếu bạn nhận ra rằng bất cứ điều gì bạn trải nghiệm bây giờ trở thành hạt giống cho những dự đoán sau này, thì bạn có thể đầu tư vào việc tạo ra những trải nghiệm mới một cách có chủ đích cho chính mình ngay bây giờ. Bạn có thể tiếp xúc với những ý tưởng mới, bạn có thể tiếp xúc với những người khác biệt với bạn, bạn có thể thực hành việc nuôi dưỡng những trải nghiệm cụ thể như bạn sẽ thực hành bất kỳ kỹ năng nào. Và bất kỳ khái niệm mới nào bạn học được, những trải nghiệm mới bạn có, trong khoảnh khắc, nếu bạn thực hành chúng, chúng sẽ trở thành những dự đoán tự động trong tương lai.
    Vậy hãy để tôi lấy điều đó và cố gắng áp dụng cho ví dụ về cái cốc bạc này trong tay tôi. Vậy tâm lý học trị liệu sẽ cố gắng quay lại quá khứ và giải thích cho tôi lý do tại sao đây thực sự không phải là thứ tôi nên uống và rằng nó có thể là những thứ khác. Trong khi đó, cách mà bạn đang nói là một cách tiếp cận khác là nếu tôi đi và lấy một ít hoa ngay bây giờ và tôi đặt chúng vào đó, tôi đang tạo ra một dự đoán mới cho tương lai vì tôi đã tạo ra một mẫu mới trong hiện tại rằng điều này thực sự là một cái bình cho hoa.
    Và tôi có thể bắt đầu tạo ra một mẫu mới rằng những chiếc cốc bạc như thế này không chỉ để uống, mà chúng còn là bình hoa cho hoa.
    Chính xác.
    Vậy, tôi có thể quay lại quá khứ và cố gắng thuyết phục bản thân rằng một chiếc cốc không phải là một chiếc cốc, hoặc tôi có thể, trong khoảnh khắc hiện tại, tạo ra một mẫu mới, điều này có nghĩa là trong tương lai, não tôi sẽ dự đoán lần tới khi thấy một chiếc cốc bạc, nó sẽ không chỉ nghĩ “uống từ cái này”, mà sẽ nghĩ “cho một ít hoa vào”.
    Đúng vậy, và nhớ rằng, thực ra, việc suy nghĩ diễn ra sau hành động, đúng không?
    Vậy điều sẽ xảy ra là lần tới khi bạn đi đến một cái bàn nơi có một chiếc cốc bạc, não bạn sẽ bắt đầu chuẩn bị các hành động để đi lấy hoa.
    Đúng vậy.
    Và sau đó bạn sẽ nghĩ, “Ô, đúng rồi, tôi có thể dùng cái này như một… ô, nhìn kìa, đó là một chiếc bình tuyệt vời”.
    Vì vậy, trong não bạn, là hành động, trước tiên não bạn đang điều khiển, nó đang chuẩn bị các hành động của bàng quang, cái mà chúng ta gọi là bàng quang vận động.
    Thì nhịp tim của bạn có cần thay đổi không?
    Các mạch máu của bạn có cần giãn không?
    Bạn có cần thở khác đi không?
    Cơ bản là nó tiên đoán nhu cầu của cơ thể và cố gắng đáp ứng những nhu cầu đó trước khi chúng xuất hiện.
    Điều đó hỗ trợ cho các chuyển động thể chất của bạn, đúng không?
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn đang đi tới đâu đó để lấy hoa và cắt thân cây và bất cứ điều gì khác, đó là tất cả những chuyển động thể chất cần glucose và oxy và các thứ như vậy,
    Tất cả những thứ đó phải được chuẩn bị trước, vài mili giây trước khi các hành động bắt đầu được chuẩn bị.
    Vì vậy, không phải những gì bạn nghĩ xác định những gì bạn cảm thấy.
    Mà là những gì bạn chuẩn bị để làm xác định suy nghĩ, cảm giác, hình ảnh, âm thanh, mùi và cảm giác của bạn.
    Đó là cách mà nó thực sự hoạt động bên trong.
    Vì vậy, ý nghĩa nằm ở những gì bạn làm.
    Và rồi, như là một hệ quả của điều đó, ý nghĩa là một hệ quả, nó trở thành cảm giác và suy nghĩ của bạn và các thứ tương tự.
    Vậy để tôi đưa ra một số ví dụ cụ thể nhé.
    Vậy nếu tôi sợ nhện, làm thế nào tôi có thể vượt qua nỗi sợ đó bằng cách sử dụng cách thứ hai mà bạn đã mô tả ở đó?
    Một trong những cách mà bạn thay đổi để thay đổi những dự đoán là bạn không thể chỉ muốn tự mình thay đổi một dự đoán.
    Tôi thực sự sợ ong.
    Tôi đã có một trải nghiệm chấn thương khi tôi năm tuổi.
    Tôi sợ ong.
    Tôi biết rất nhiều về ong.
    Thực ra tôi là một người làm vườn.
    Và tôi biết rất nhiều về sinh học tiến hóa của ong.
    Nhưng khi tôi ở ngoài trời, nếu một con ong đến gần, phản ứng đầu tiên của tôi là hoặc chạy đi hoặc đứng im.
    Đúng không?
    Tôi sợ ong.
    Tôi có thể nói chuyện với bản thân cho đến khi nào bò về nhà.
    Điều đó sẽ không quan trọng.
    Đúng không?
    Vì vậy, điều tôi phải làm là làm quen với sự sai lệch trong dự đoán, có nghĩa là tôi phải tương tác với ong theo một cách thay đổi hành động của tôi, điều này sẽ thay đổi trải nghiệm của tôi.
    Và tôi không thể chỉ làm điều đó ngay lập tức.
    Không phải là một ý tưởng hay khi tôi nói, không phải là ý tưởng hay khi tôi đến như một người có tổ ong và, bạn biết đấy, mặc bộ đồ và đi làm.
    Ý tôi là, điều đó sẽ quá tải.
    Đúng không?
    Vì vậy, thay vào đó, có thể tôi không chạy.
    Có thể tôi đứng lại và quan sát.
    Có thể tôi lại gần một con ong.
    Có thể tôi trồng những bụi cây và hoa mà ong rất thích để kéo ong đến gần tôi, để tôi có thể ngồi và chỉ ở xung quanh chúng khi chúng kêu vo ve và làm việc của chúng.
    Có thể tôi cố tình để cho mình bị chích vào một lúc nào đó, mà tôi đã làm.
    Nhưng, bạn biết đấy, bạn đang làm quen với bản thân và não bạn đang đưa ra một bộ dự đoán.
    Những dự đoán đó, có một bộ dự đoán.
    Điều đó có nghĩa là não bạn không chuẩn bị chỉ một hành động.
    Nó đang chuẩn bị nhiều hành động.
    Vì vậy, bạn cần phải chứng minh cho não của bạn thấy rằng những dự đoán đó là sai.
    Vâng, chính xác.
    Bạn cần, bạn đang thiết lập các hoàn cảnh để có thể chứng minh cho bản thân rằng những dự đoán của bạn là sai.
    Nếu bạn dự đoán tốt, bạn có một vài kế hoạch hành động.
    Nếu bạn dự đoán kém, hãy nói rằng bạn đang tổng quát hóa quá mức, có thể bạn có hàng trăm kế hoạch.
    Như nếu có sự không chắc chắn lớn lao, não bạn không biết nên chọn kế hoạch hành động nào, vì vậy có thể có nhiều kế hoạch.
    Các tín hiệu cảm giác đang đến não bạn từ các bề mặt cảm giác của cơ thể bạn, từ võng mạc của bạn, từ ốc tai của bạn.
    Bạn có các bề mặt cảm giác trên làn da của bạn, bên trong cơ thể bạn, trong các tế bào cơ của bạn.
    Tất cả những tín hiệu này đến não bạn.
    Chúng giúp chọn tín hiệu dự đoán nào sẽ được hoàn thành như hành động và trải nghiệm sống.
    Được rồi, giả sử bạn đặt mình một cách có chủ ý trong một tình huống mà các tín hiệu đến không chọn bất kỳ dự đoán nào vì có quá nhiều tín hiệu không thể dự đoán ở đó.
    Đó là lỗi.
    Có một cái tên khác trong tâm lý học cho việc tiếp nhận sự sai lệch trong dự đoán.
    Liệu pháp tiếp xúc?
    Học tập.
    Ô, được rồi.
    Vâng, liệu pháp tiếp xúc, đó là một loại học tập, tất cả việc học tập, tất cả việc học tập là bạn đang tiếp nhận lỗi dự đoán, những tín hiệu mà bạn đã không dự đoán, hoặc không có bất kỳ tín hiệu nào mà bạn đã dự đoán.
    Bạn đã dự đoán một tín hiệu, nó không tồn tại.
    Vì vậy, những gì bạn làm là bạn thiết lập các tình huống cho bản thân mà bạn sẽ tiếp nhận các tín hiệu mới lạ, đúng không?
    Và việc này dường như là một điều dễ thực hiện.
    Chúng ta, con người thực sự đôi khi tìm kiếm sự mới lạ, đúng không?
    Nhưng quá nhiều sự mới lạ không phải lúc nào cũng là điều tốt, đặc biệt nếu, bạn biết đấy, về mặt chuyển hóa, việc tiếp nhận sự sai lệch trong dự đoán và học điều mới là tốn kém về mặt chuyển hóa.
    Giống như những chi phí lớn nhất mà não bạn tiêu tốn năng lượng là di chuyển cơ thể của bạn, học điều mới và xử lý sự không chắc chắn kéo dài.
    Đó là những điều thực sự tốn kém đối với chúng ta.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn bị gánh nặng về mặt chuyển hóa theo một cách nào đó, hãy nói rằng bạn đang bị trầm cảm, hoặc bạn mắc rối loạn lo âu, hoặc có thể bạn mắc bệnh tim, hoặc tiểu đường, hoặc bạn đang sống trong tình trạng căng thẳng mãn tính, bạn không có đủ sức để tiếp nhận sự sai lệch trong dự đoán.
    Bạn sẽ chỉ đi theo những dự đoán của mình.
    Bạn sẽ không học.
    Bạn sẽ không có khả năng cập nhật những dự đoán đó.
    Bạn sẽ bị kẹt lại.
    Bạn sẽ bị kẹt trong đầu mình đúng không?
    Mỗi trải nghiệm, mỗi hành động, là sự kết hợp giữa hiện tại đã được nhớ, quá khứ đã được nhớ, những dự đoán và hiện tại cảm giác.
    Nhưng hiện tại cảm giác chỉ có mặt để chọn lựa quá khứ đã được nhớ mà bạn sẽ hành động dựa trên đó.
    Và đôi khi, trong những khoảnh khắc căng thẳng lớn, bộ não chỉ làm theo những dự đoán của nó và bỏ qua thế giới xung quanh.
    Tôi đã nghĩ đến chuyện đó khi bạn nói về loại lây nhiễm xã hội này, nơi mà chúng ta có thể gán ý nghĩa cho cuộc sống và những gì đã xảy ra với chúng ta, và do đó làm cho chúng ta buồn vì chúng ta thấy những người khác trên TikTok hoặc Instagram đang cảm thấy như thế nào.
    Và nó làm tôi nghĩ rằng bạn chắc hẳn nghĩ rằng thế giới này điên rồ ở một mức độ nào đó.
    Chắc chắn bạn thấy sự lây nhiễm xã hội trong thế giới, nơi mà đột nhiên mọi người trở nên bị tổn thương vì chấn thương đã trở nên gần như phổ biến, bạn biết đấy, khi nghĩ về những gì đã xảy ra với bạn và tạo ra ý nghĩa cho nó, và rồi phải chịu đựng cái ý nghĩa đó.
    Nhưng còn có những loại lây nhiễm xã hội khác đang lan rộng qua xã hội.
    Ý tôi là, giới trẻ đang ngày càng lo lắng hơn.
    Họ ngày càng trầm cảm hơn.
    Chúng ta tự chẩn đoán mình với những căn bệnh và những thứ khác nhau.
    Nhưng giờ đây bạn đã giải thích cho tôi cách bộ não hoạt động.
    Tôi đang nghĩ, ôi, với tư cách là một xã hội, chúng ta thật điên rồ.
    Vâng, chúng ta đang sống trong những lời nói dối.
    Ừ, tôi nghĩ, tôi đoán cách tôi làm, tôi thấy điều đó thật khó chịu đôi lúc, nhưng, nhưng chỉ vì tôi nghĩ rằng chúng ta là những người gán ý nghĩa, như là động vật chúng ta là những người tạo ra ý nghĩa.
    Chúng ta tạo ra ý nghĩa, chúng ta tạo ra ý nghĩa, chúng ta tạo ra ý nghĩa bởi vì sống, như là nhờ vào việc tương tác với những thứ trong thế giới, bằng cách tương tác với nhau.
    Rất ít ý nghĩa được đưa ra, tức là chúng tồn tại độc lập với chúng ta.
    Và vậy nên, điều tôi thấy khó chịu là có rất nhiều đau khổ, và việc hiểu những nguyên tắc hoạt động cơ bản của bộ não sẽ không xóa bỏ tất cả đau khổ, nhưng nó có thể giảm bớt, có thể loại bỏ một số điều.
    Và mọi người không hiểu rằng đôi khi họ làm cho đau khổ của mình trở nên tồi tệ hơn mức cần thiết.
    Bạn dừng lại ở từ trách nhiệm.
    Vâng, tôi muốn làm rõ rằng, một lần nữa, tôi không nói rằng mọi người chịu trách nhiệm.
    Trách nhiệm và sự đáng trách không phải là một.
    Sự đáng trách là sự đổ lỗi, bạn có xứng đáng bị đổ lỗi không?
    Đúng, không ai, tôi không nói rằng mọi người có trách nhiệm cho đau khổ của chính họ.
    Tôi đang nói rằng mọi người có thể có trách nhiệm hơn, và bằng cách nhận nhiều trách nhiệm hơn, họ có thể giảm bớt đau khổ của mình.
    Điều đó không giống như nói rằng, bạn biết đấy, đây là nguyên nhân của họ ngay từ đầu.
    Vì vậy, tôi sẽ đưa ra một ví dụ.
    Sự lây nhiễm xã hội.
    Lây nhiễm là một từ thú vị.
    Nó có nghĩa là bạn bị nhiễm một cái gì đó.
    Ngay cả một loại virus.
    Có những thí nghiệm được thực hiện 15, 20 năm trước, nơi mà, um, được thực hiện bởi Sheldon Cohen, người là một bác sĩ tâm lý miễn dịch, có nghĩa là ông ấy là một nhà tâm lý học.
    Và ông ấy nghiên cứu cách miễn dịch học, um, tức là hệ thống miễn dịch của bạn liên quan đến trạng thái tâm lý của bạn như thế nào.
    Vì vậy, điều ông ấy đã làm trong một số thí nghiệm là ông ấy đưa những người này vào cách ly trong các phòng khách sạn.
    Sau đó ông ấy đã lấy cùng một liều, cùng một nồng độ virus, và đặt nó vào mũi mỗi người.
    Và sau đó ông ấy kiểm soát lượng họ ngủ, lượng họ ăn.
    Ông ấy đã đo triệu chứng của họ.
    Ông ấy đã, như, cân các mô của họ sau khi họ xì mũi.
    Tôi nghĩa là, như vậy, ông ấy thực sự rất, rất, rất, rất cẩn thận với các số liệu.
    Và trong các thí nghiệm này, khoảng từ 20 đến 40% người đã trở nên có triệu chứng với bệnh hô hấp.
    Điều đó có nghĩa là virus là cần thiết, nhưng không đủ để gây bệnh.
    Một nguyên nhân cần thiết nhưng không đủ khác là trạng thái của hệ thống miễn dịch của mỗi người.
    Đó là, bộ não và hệ thống miễn dịch của bạn phải ở trong một trạng thái cụ thể để bạn bị nhiễm virus trong các thí nghiệm này.
    Vì vậy, điểm mà tôi đang làm ở đây cũng chính xác như vậy về đau khổ.
    Vì vậy, hãy lấy lo âu làm ví dụ.
    Bạn biết, chúng ta, trong một nền văn hóa, chúng ta tự động gán ý nghĩa cho các kiểu mẫu tín hiệu nhất định là lo âu.
    Khi có nhiều sự không chắc chắn, có sự gia tăng norepinephrine và một số hóa chất trong não.
    Điều đó thường đi kèm với sự gia tăng nhịp tim và vân vân.
    Và chúng ta tự động gán ý nghĩa cho trạng thái thể chất này là lo âu.
    Nhưng chính xác trạng thái thể chất giống hệt này có thể là quyết tâm.
    Nó có thể chỉ là sự không chắc chắn thuần túy.
    Một lần nữa, việc gán ý nghĩa là về hành động, đúng không?
    Vì vậy, khi bạn trải qua sự kích thích cao, ngay cả khi nó cực kỳ khó chịu như quyết tâm, bạn làm điều gì đó khác biệt so với khi bạn trải qua nó như là lo âu hay không chắc chắn.
    Vì vậy, đây là một ví dụ.
    Có những người trải qua lo âu thi cử.
    Lo âu thi cử thực sự nghiêm trọng khiến mọi người không thể hoàn thành khóa học hoặc tốt nghiệp đại học.
    Những người tốt nghiệp đại học có một quỹ đạo kiếm tiền trong suốt cuộc đời hơn hàng trăm ngàn đô la so với những người bỏ học.
    Vì vậy, lo âu thi cử lâu dài, nó không chỉ đơn thuần là một chút khó chịu.
    Bạn biết đấy, nó có những tác động nghiêm trọng đến khả năng kiếm tiền của bạn trong suốt cuộc đời.
    Có những thí nghiệm được thực hiện, nơi họ đã huấn luyện mọi người để hiểu các trạng thái thể chất kích thích cao không phải là lo âu, mà là quyết tâm.
    Và những người này đã học được điều này.
    Đầu tiên, họ thực hành như một kỹ năng.
    Nó giống như lái xe.
    Lúc đầu, thật sự rất khó.
    Bạn phải nỗ lực rất nhiều cho điều đó.
    Nhưng bạn thực hành, thực hành, thực hành, và sau đó cuối cùng nó trở thành tự động thật sự.
    Và sau đó điều gì xảy ra?
    Họ có thể làm bài kiểm tra.
    Họ có thể qua bài kiểm tra.
    Họ có thể tiếp tục tham gia các khóa học và vân vân.
    Tôi đã chứng kiến điều này xảy ra ngay trước mắt mình.
    Con gái tôi, khi cô ấy 12 tuổi, cô ấy đang thi lấy đai đen trong karate.
    Sensei của cô ấy là một người có đai đen cấp 10.
    Người này, đai đen cấp 10 là cấp cao nhất mà bạn có thể đạt được. Người này có thể đập gãy một chiếc bảng chỉ bằng cái nhìn. Anh ta là một người đáng sợ, rất đáng sợ. Và con gái tôi thì chưa đến năm feet khi cô ấy 12 tuổi. Cô ấy chỉ là một cô bé rất nhỏ nhắn. Cô ấy phải tham gia tập luyện với những cậu bé lớn khoảng 15, 16, 18 tuổi. Cô ấy thực sự phải giao lưu với họ. Và, bạn biết đấy, đây là trong suốt vài ngày. Cô ấy thực sự phải làm điều đó. Và tôi ngồi đó, với cô ấy, bạn biết đấy, tôi là bố của cô ấy, và chúng tôi ngồi đó. Chúng tôi đang quan sát cô ấy. Và vì vậy, thầy của cô ấy, bạn biết đấy, bước lại gần cô ấy và nói, “Cô bé, hãy để những con bướm của con bay theo hình thức.” Và tôi đã nghĩ, điều đó thật tuyệt vời. “Hãy để những con bướm của con bay theo hình thức.” Ông ấy không nói “bình tĩnh lại, cô bé.” Điều đó thực sự sẽ không tốt. Bạn không muốn bình tĩnh. Bạn cần sự hưng phấn đó. Nó có lý do của nó. Nó không thoải mái, nhưng bạn cần nó. Ông ấy đang nói, hãy sử dụng nó. Điều đó đối với tôi là một ví dụ hoàn hảo về việc tìm kiếm một ý nghĩa khác cho sự hưng phấn đó. Và ý nghĩa đó là hành động mà bạn sẽ tham gia vào. Dù có khó khăn thế nào, dù có không giống như nó nên thế nào, sự kiểm soát vẫn ở đó. Nó ở đó. Nó không phải lúc nào cũng có mặt. Nó khó để có được, bạn biết đấy, bla bla. Nhưng nó ở đó. Và điều đó có nghĩa là bạn có nhiều quyền tự chủ hơn. Bạn có nhiều quyền kiểm soát hơn. Bạn sẽ không bao giờ có được nhiều kiểm soát như bạn muốn. Luôn luôn khó khăn hơn để có được. Lựa chọn của bạn không phải lúc nào cũng giống nhau. Nhưng bạn luôn có thể tìm thấy một chút kiểm soát hơn đối với những gì bạn làm và những gì bạn trải nghiệm. Và đó là chìa khóa để sống một cuộc sống có ý nghĩa. Bạn có lo lắng về thế giới mà người trẻ đang lớn lên không, nơi mà họ đang cuộn trên mạng xã hội và mạng xã hội đang cho họ biết những cảm giác nhất định là gì. Vì vậy, họ đang bị lập trình liên tục. Có, đúng vậy. Để cảm thấy lo lắng, để cảm thấy trầm cảm, để cảm thấy buồn bã. Đúng vậy. Và hãy nghĩ về điều đó. Mạng xã hội là điều không chắc chắn xấu. Bạn biết đấy, trước hết, ngay cả khi chúng ta đang ngồi đối mặt với nhau, chúng ta có tất cả những tín hiệu này. Chúng ta có tất cả những dấu hiệu này. Tôi có thể nhìn thấy khuôn mặt của bạn. Tôi có thể nghe thấy giọng nói của bạn. Ngay cả khi tất cả thông tin này có sẵn, vẫn có một chút không chắc chắn, đúng không? Chúng ta không đọc được nhau. Các chuyển động cơ thể không phải là một ngôn ngữ để đọc. Đó là một phép ẩn dụ tồi, đúng không? Chúng ta luôn đoán. Chúng ta luôn đoán. Và chúng ta đang sử dụng rất nhiều tín hiệu để đoán. Nhưng khi bạn ở trên mạng xã hội, bạn có rất ít tín hiệu. Có rất nhiều sự mơ hồ. Có rất nhiều điều không chắc chắn. Và điều duy nhất bạn có thể làm là điền vào sự không chắc chắn đó bằng những dự đoán của riêng bạn, điều này có thể là sai, đúng không? Vì vậy, những người lên TikTok và bất cứ đâu đều từ bỏ, họ như tự nguyện từ bỏ quyền tự chủ của mình và họ không biết điều đó. Bạn có ý gì khi nói như vậy? Họ đang chọn để bị dẫn dắt. Họ đang chọn để bị ảnh hưởng. Tôi sẽ cho bạn một ví dụ. Tôi đã nghe các podcast về sự trao đổi chất. Tôi đã nghe các podcast về, bạn biết đấy, chăm sóc da. Tôi đã nghe các podcast. Bạn biết đấy, tôi tò mò. Tôi tò mò về những loại thông tin mà mọi người đưa ra. Tôi có thể tắt 90% những gì tôi nghe—tôi nghe khoảng 10 phút và tôi sẽ tắt nó đi. Đó là điều mà một người tiêu dùng phải làm. Bạn có quyền chọn lựa. Tôi nghĩ mọi người—họ không nhận ra rằng vì những gì họ làm và những gì họ không làm, họ đang đưa ra những quyết định về những gì sẽ được giữ lại trong đầu họ mà sau đó sẽ tự động được sử dụng. Tẩy não. Tẩy não. Một chút, ngoại trừ việc bạn là người đang chọn điều đó. Bạn biết đấy, tôi có sự đồng cảm và tôi không đổ lỗi cho mọi người, nhưng họ có thể—mọi thứ có thể tốt hơn cho họ, bạn biết không? Ý tôi là, tôi đã có một cô con gái bị trầm cảm lâm sàng. Đó là một trong những trải nghiệm frust- đô nhất mà tôi từng trải qua trong đời, bên cạnh việc thực sự là bi thảm. Ý tôi là, bây giờ tôi có thể nói về điều đó mà không khóc. Điều đó mất một thời gian dài. Nhưng lúc đầu, cô ấy đã rất kháng cự. Cuối cùng, bạn biết đấy, cô ấy đã quyết định rằng cô ấy muốn được giúp đỡ, và sau đó chúng tôi đã hoàn toàn thay đổi cuộc đời của cô ấy. Nhưng cô ấy phải tự đưa ra quyết định đó. Tôi không thể ép cô ấy. Và tôi cảm thấy rằng, một chút, tình hình hiện tại cũng giống như vậy, nơi có quá nhiều thông tin vô nghĩa trong ngành công nghiệp chăm sóc sức khỏe. Có quá nhiều điều, bạn biết đấy, xoay quanh trên TikTok và các lĩnh vực khác của mạng xã hội, và không phải tất cả đều hữu ích. Và một số thì thực sự gây hại. Bạn có phiền nếu tôi tạm dừng cuộc trò chuyện này một chút không? Tôi muốn nói về nhà tài trợ chương trình của chúng ta hôm nay, đó là Shopify. Tôi luôn tin rằng chi phí lớn nhất trong kinh doanh không phải là thất bại. Đó là thời gian bạn lãng phí để cố gắng đưa ra quyết định. Thời gian dành cho việc do dự, suy nghĩ quá mức, hoặc chờ đợi khoảnh khắc thích hợp. Khi tôi bắt đầu công ty đầu tiên của mình khi 20 tuổi, tôi không có kinh nghiệm và cũng không có tiền. Những gì tôi có là một ý tưởng và sự sẵn sàng để hành động nhanh chóng. Và điều đó đã tạo ra sự khác biệt lớn. Nếu bạn đang nghĩ đến việc bắt đầu doanh nghiệp riêng của mình, Shopify biến toàn bộ quy trình này trở nên dễ dàng hơn rất nhiều. Với hàng nghìn mẫu có thể tùy chỉnh, bạn không cần kỹ năng lập trình hay thiết kế, bạn chỉ cần sự sẵn sàng để bắt đầu. Shopify kết nối tất cả các kênh bán hàng của bạn từ trang web của bạn đến mạng xã hội, và nó cũng xử lý các khoản thanh toán, giao hàng và thuế ở phía sau, để bạn có thể tập trung vào việc tiến về phía trước và phát triển doanh nghiệp của mình. Nếu bạn sẵn sàng bắt đầu, hãy truy cập shopify.com slash Bartlett và đăng ký dùng thử 1 bảng Anh mỗi tháng. Đó là shopify.com slash Bartlett. Lợi thế mà bạn có khi là một người quan sát trên Looker là bạn có một lượng lớn thông tin và kiến thức để hướng dẫn bạn đưa ra những quyết định tốt hơn. Nhưng nhiều người không có thông tin và kiến thức đó. Thực tế, họ có thông tin và kiến thức trái ngược.
    Vậy, khi tôi suy nghĩ về những gì cần thiết để ai đó thay đổi trong cuộc sống của họ, dù là con gái bạn hay một người khác cảm thấy họ bị kẹt rồi cảm thấy bị mắc kẹt trong một thuật toán hay bị mắc kẹt trong một cuộc sống mà họ muốn thoát ra. Dựa trên mọi thứ bạn biết và dựa trên kinh nghiệm của bạn với con gái mình, bước đầu tiên để có thể thực hiện sự thay đổi đó là gì? Bởi vì tôi thực sự rất tò mò về điều gì ở con gái bạn đã khiến cô ấy quyết định rằng cô ấy muốn nhận sự giúp đỡ.
    Chà, tôi nghĩ rằng câu trả lời chung là những bước nhỏ. Rất hiếm khi có thể thay đổi tất cả mọi thứ ngay lập tức. Tôi không nói rằng điều đó không bao giờ xảy ra, nhưng nó hiếm khi hoạt động theo cách đó. Vì vậy, ví dụ, bạn có thể cố gắng tắt các mạng xã hội một ngày trong tuần hoặc làm điều gì khác cùng với một người bạn. Hoặc đi dạo hoặc chỉ cần làm điều đó trở thành một phần trong lịch trình hàng ngày của bạn.
    Thế nên, điều khác là bạn không thể làm những điều này chỉ vì bạn muốn làm chúng. Bạn phải ép buộc bản thân để làm những điều đó. Ví dụ, tôi đã trải qua một cuộc phẫu thuật lưng lớn, rất nghiêm trọng. Và tôi biết rằng sau khi phẫu thuật lưng, tôi sẽ trải nghiệm những cảm giác mà tôi chưa từng có trước đây. Giống như, bạn biết đấy, khi bạn đi trám răng, đúng không? Và sau đó, bạn biết đó có cái gì đó mà trước đây không có. Và sau đó lưỡi bạn liên tục chọc vào cái răng và bạn không nên làm như vậy. Nhưng bạn vẫn làm vì não bạn đang tìm kiếm thông tin. Não bạn đang tìm kiếm lỗi dự đoán.
    Và cuối cùng nó điều chỉnh các dự đoán của mình và rồi nó bỏ qua những cảm giác đó vì chúng không quan trọng, đúng không? Vì vậy, điều đó sẽ xảy ra ở quy mô lớn cho tôi. Và tôi biết rằng tôi đã lập một kế hoạch trước phẫu thuật để tự điều chỉnh bản thân với lượng lỗi dự đoán cho phù hợp để tôi không phát triển cơn đau mãn tính. Bởi vì cơn đau mãn tính giống như một loạt các dự đoán xấu mà không được cập nhật, đúng không? Vì vậy, não bạn vẫn tin rằng có tổn thương mô trong cơ thể bạn khi mà không còn tổn thương mô nữa.
    Vậy điều đó có nghĩa là cơn đau thường chỉ là một sản phẩm của trí tưởng tượng của bạn không? Không, đó là cách suy nghĩ sai lầm. Cách đúng để nghĩ về nó là mọi trải nghiệm, quá khứ được nhớ và hiện tại cảm nhận. Vì vậy, cơn đau xảy ra trong đầu bạn. Thị giác là trong đầu bạn. Nghe là trong đầu bạn. Bạn không nghe bằng tai. Bạn nghe bằng đầu, trong não bạn. Bạn không thấy bằng mắt. Bạn cần mắt của bạn. Bạn cần tai của bạn. Nhưng bạn không thấy bằng mắt. Bạn thấy bằng não của bạn.
    Vì vậy, cơn đau là một sự kết hợp, giống như thị giác, là sự kết hợp giữa quá khứ đã nhớ và hiện tại cảm nhận. Được rồi. Ồ, cả hai là đúng. Vì vậy, cơn đau mãn tính xảy ra khi não bạn nhận được tín hiệu từ cơ thể rằng có tổn thương mô. Những tín hiệu nhạy cảm, chúng được gọi là như vậy. Và nó đã diễn giải chúng như là cơn đau. Và khi bạn phục hồi từ một căn bệnh, điều đó rất tốn năng lượng.
    Vì vậy, không có nhiều năng lượng trao đổi, không có nhiều ngân sách chuyển hóa của bạn dành cho việc học. Vì vậy bạn có thể ở trong một tình huống mà não bạn không cập nhật chính nó và bạn vẫn trải qua cơn đau, mặc dù tổn thương mô không còn nữa. Nó giống như việc nhìn thấy một quả táo xanh trong tâm trí của bạn khi không có quả táo nào trước mặt bạn.
    Nó không hoàn toàn ở trong đầu bạn theo một cách xúc phạm. Nó chỉ là một hệ quả bình thường của cách não bộ hoạt động. Chấn thương đã biến mất, nhưng tín hiệu của chấn thương vẫn đang lặp đi lặp lại. Đúng vậy, chính xác. Giống như, nó giống như một cái chân ảo. Nó giống như tiếng chuông phanh cũng như vậy. Ôi chao, đúng. Tôi đã trải qua điều đó trong một thời gian ngắn.
    Vì vậy, tôi đã cố gắng rất nhiều để lập một lịch trình cho bản thân, bạn biết đấy, để cho phép mình tự lên lịch cho bản thân một cách tối ưu với lỗi dự đoán, nhưng điều đó có nghĩa là tôi phải tuân thủ lịch trình đó. Và tôi nghĩ nếu bạn cam kết thay đổi thói quen của mình, đây là cách bạn thay đổi bất kỳ thói quen nào. Bạn thay đổi bối cảnh và bạn thực hành những hành vi mới.
    Vì vậy, với con gái tôi, trầm cảm, chúng tôi nghĩ về trầm cảm trong phòng thí nghiệm của chúng tôi, như là, để tôi lùi lại một chút và nói rằng, công việc quan trọng nhất của não bạn thực sự không phải là suy nghĩ. Nó không phải là cảm xúc, thậm chí không phải là nhìn thấy, mà là điều chỉnh cơ thể bạn. Nó đang điều chỉnh sự trao đổi chất của bạn. Về cơ bản, đó là công việc quan trọng nhất của não bạn. Công việc quan trọng nhất của não bạn là dự đoán nhu cầu của cơ thể bạn và chuẩn bị đáp ứng những nhu cầu đó trước khi chúng phát sinh.
    Ẩn dụ mà chúng tôi sử dụng cho việc điều tiết dự đoán của cơ thể, thuật ngữ chính thức được gọi là allostasis. Đó là khái niệm khoa học, nhưng ẩn dụ là ngân sách cơ thể. Nó giống như giảm ngân sách cho cơ thể của bạn. Não bạn đang điều hành một ngân sách cho cơ thể của bạn. Nó không phải là ngân sách tiền bạc. Nó điều chỉnh natri và glucose và oxy và kali và tất cả các loại chất dinh dưỡng và hóa chất cần thiết để triệu chứng hóa một cơ thể tốn năng lượng. Bạn biết đấy, bạn có tất cả những quy trình ở mức thấp rất quan trọng để giữ cho bản thân sống.
    Vì vậy, một phần ngân sách năng lượng của bạn được dành cho điều đó. Một phần ngân sách năng lượng của bạn dành cho sửa chữa và phát triển. Vì vậy, nếu bạn cao lên, bạn cần nhiều tế bào hơn. Khi bạn học một điều gì đó, bạn phải làm dày thêm myelin và các nơron của bạn. Bạn phải phát triển nhiều thụ thể hơn và những thứ như vậy. Đó là điều mà, bạn biết đó, kiểu phát triển và sửa chữa. Và phần còn lại tất cả dành cho bất cứ thứ gì cần nỗ lực. Cái gì cần nỗ lực? Như làm việc hay đi tập gym. Kéo bản thân ra khỏi giường vào buổi sáng là cần nỗ lực.
    Đúng vậy. Học điều gì đó mới là cần nỗ lực. Đối phó với sự không chắc chắn là cần nỗ lực. Mọi thứ chúng ta gọi là căng thẳng. Căng thẳng thực sự chỉ là não bạn đang dự đoán một khoản chi tiêu chuyển hóa lớn vì có một số nỗ lực liên quan, đúng không? Một số nỗ lực có động lực liên quan.
    Dưới đây là bản dịch của đoạn văn sang tiếng Việt:
    Vậy thì đó là ba điều tạo thành ngân sách năng lượng của bạn. Và điểm quan trọng thực sự là, với tư cách là một sinh vật, bạn có một lượng năng lượng cố định mà bạn có thể sản xuất trong một ngày. Có nghĩa là ATP, giống như những hóa chất nhỏ này, những protein nhỏ mà, bạn biết đấy, các tế bào của bạn sử dụng như một nguồn năng lượng thực sự có được từ glucose và những thứ khác như chất béo. Vậy nên không có gì tôi có thể làm để tăng nó lên. Thật ra, bạn đang ở trong một khoảng nào đó. Được rồi. Nhưng có một giới hạn nhất định, giới hạn trên cho khoảng đó vì bạn là một sinh vật con người. Và bạn phải thực hiện ba điều này, những chức năng thiết yếu, phát triển và sửa chữa, và sau đó là mọi thứ khác. Nếu bạn đang gặp nhiều căng thẳng tâm lý xã hội, hoặc bạn có một loại bệnh nào đó đã tiêu tốn, bạn biết đấy, nhiều ngân sách, thì bạn không còn nhiều ngân sách cho những thứ khác mà bạn cần làm. Vậy nên điều mà bộ não của bạn sẽ cố gắng làm là cắt giảm chi phí. Nếu bạn nhìn vào các triệu chứng của chứng trầm cảm, chúng là những triệu chứng liên quan đến việc cắt giảm chi phí. Sự đau khổ, mệt mỏi, vấn đề trong việc tập trung, thiếu nhạy cảm với bối cảnh mà bạn đang ở. Tất cả những điều này đều cho thấy sự giảm thiểu chi tiêu trao đổi chất. Và sau đó, trầm cảm cũng có những triệu chứng liên quan đến việc tăng chi phí, như 70% người bị trầm cảm gặp vấn đề viêm. Vì vậy, họ có tình trạng viêm tăng cường, viêm toàn thân, và hệ miễn dịch của bạn là một hệ thống rất tốn kém để vận hành. Vậy nếu bạn có tình trạng viêm kéo dài và toàn thân, đó giống như một khoản thuế kéo dài trên ngân sách của bạn. Bạn biết đấy, có nghĩa là mọi thứ đang tốn nhiều hơn mức cần thiết. Và ngay cả, bạn biết đấy, có những nghiên cứu rất thú vị. Tôi thấy chúng thú vị với tư cách là một nhà khoa học, còn với tư cách là một người, tôi thấy chúng hơi kinh hoàng. Nhưng, bạn biết đấy, nếu bạn, trong vòng hai giờ sau khi ăn một bữa ăn, nếu bạn gặp căng thẳng, căng thẳng xã hội, thì như thể bạn đã ăn thêm 104 calo so với những gì bạn thực sự đã ăn. Bạn đã quá kém trong việc chuyển hóa đến mức nó giống như việc bạn đã ăn thêm 104 calo so với những gì bạn đã làm. Ngay cả những chất béo tốt cũng sẽ được chuyển hóa như thể chúng là chất béo xấu. Và có khả năng bị lưu trữ như vậy. Vâng. Vậy nếu bạn cộng dồn 104 calo cho mỗi bữa ăn trong một năm, thì đó gần như là 11 pound. Điều đó có nghĩa là nếu bạn ở trong một môi trường căng thẳng và, um, trong một năm và bạn ăn giống hệt những gì bạn đã ăn năm trước, bạn sẽ tăng thêm 11 pound. Trong trầm cảm, chúng ta biết, chẳng hạn, rằng, um, có sự rối loạn cortisol trong trầm cảm. Điều đó có nghĩa là có sự rối loạn trong, um, chuyển hóa vì cortisol là một hóa chất chuyển hóa, bạn biết đấy, nó là một hóa chất liên quan đến chuyển hóa. Um, những người sử dụng, uh, SSRIs, họ dùng cho trầm cảm, thuốc chống trầm cảm thường là SSRIs hoặc SNRIs. Điều đó có nghĩa là chúng hoạt động trên serotonin để giữ nhiều serotonin hơn trong, trong giao điểm giữa các neuron. Serotonin là một tác nhân điều chỉnh chuyển hóa. Norepinephrine là một tác nhân điều chỉnh chuyển hóa. Đây là những hóa chất trực tiếp tham gia vào chuyển hóa của bạn. Vậy nên không phải là một niềm tin rằng trầm cảm có một cơ sở chuyển hóa. Tôi nghĩ câu hỏi là, “Chất dinh dưỡng nào trong tất cả những ảnh hưởng chuyển hóa này có thể khiến ai đó phát triển trạng thái trầm cảm?” Nhưng điểm, điểm đơn giản mà tôi muốn nói là tôi thực sự đã đến với ý tưởng này về chuyển hóa và trầm cảm vì tôi đã làm rất nhiều việc để tìm cách giúp đỡ con gái mình. Những triệu chứng của cô ấy vào thời điểm đó là gì? Chỉ cần nếu có bất kỳ bậc phụ huynh nào đang nghe ngay bây giờ có thể cảm thấy liên quan hoặc bất kỳ ai nghe có thể cảm thấy liên quan. Vâng. Ồ, tôi sẽ nói với bạn rằng tôi đã có bài nói này trước đây, um, về trầm cảm ở thanh thiếu niên. Tuổi thanh thiếu niên là một, um, giống như một cơn bão hoàn hảo về sự dễ bị tổn thương chuyển hóa vì rất nhiều lý do. Bạn biết đấy, bộ não của bạn bị giam giữ trong một cái hộp tối tăm, yên lặng gọi là hộp sọ của bạn. Nó nhận tín hiệu từ cơ thể và từ thế giới. Nó không biết nguyên nhân của những tín hiệu đó là gì. Nó nhận được các tác động. Nó phải đoán nguyên nhân là gì. Những dự đoán đó là gì? Dự đoán từ quá khứ, đúng không? Vì vậy, nó không biết về sự gia tăng hormone ngay lập tức khi chúng xảy ra. Nó, bạn biết đấy, nó mất khoảng 20 phút hoặc lâu hơn, hoặc đôi khi một chút ít hơn, tùy thuộc vào vị trí của những thay đổi hormone và nguồn gốc của chúng, để bộ não nhận tín hiệu của những thay đổi đó. Và sau đó nó phải đoán nguyên nhân là gì. Câu chuyện được sử dụng trong tâm thần học và y học là một câu chuyện điểu gì đó giống như thế này. Nó quay trở lại, như bộ não của bạn là một chiến trường, đúng không? Vì vậy, ý tưởng là, bạn biết đấy, bạn được sinh ra, câu chuyện là bạn được sinh ra với những mạch cảm xúc bẩm sinh này. Bạn không, bạn không có bất kỳ mạch cảm xúc nào cả. Thực ra, bạn không có bất kỳ mạch cảm xúc nào. Nhưng câu chuyện là bạn được sinh ra với những mạch cảm xúc bẩm sinh này. Chúng hoạt động, nhưng bạn không được sinh ra với khả năng kiểm soát chúng. Điều đó phải phát triển theo thời gian. Vì vậy, trong tuổi thanh thiếu niên, ý tưởng là rối loạn tâm trạng phát sinh vì bạn, bạn không có đủ kiểm soát nhận thức và bạn có quá nhiều cảm xúc. Vì vậy, bạn có những cảm xúc không kiềm chế và đó chính là vấn đề. Đó là một câu chuyện rất thuyết phục. Thật ra đó chỉ là một lập luận phi lý. Về cơ bản, không có bằng chứng tốt cho câu chuyện đó. Tôi nghe nói rằng nó là một sự mất cân bằng hóa học. Vâng. Chà, đôi khi mọi người nói về sự mất cân bằng hóa học đó theo nghĩa rằng serotonin là hóa chất hạnh phúc và dopamine là hóa chất thưởng. Và đó cũng, đó là một sự đơn giản hóa đến mức không đúng ngay cả khi sai. Được rồi. Dopamine không phải là một hóa chất thưởng và serotonin không phải là hóa chất hạnh phúc. Cả hai đều là những điều chỉnh chuyển hóa. Bạn thấy sự gia tăng dopamine trong một số neuron trong những trường hợp bị trừng phạt. Và serotonin thực hiện nhiều chức năng trong cơ thể bạn ở nhiều nơi khác nhau.
    Nhưng một trong những điều mà nó làm trong các thí nghiệm có kiểm soát là cho phép động vật dành thời gian, tìm kiếm thức ăn, tham gia vào hoạt động, hoạt động thể chất và học tập khi không có phần thưởng chuyển hóa ngay lập tức ở cuối. Không có phần thưởng ở cuối. Vì vậy, dopamine bây giờ được nhiều nhà thần kinh học coi là một hóa chất cần thiết cho nỗ lực, cho dù đó là nỗ lực thể chất hay học hỏi một cái gì đó, nỗ lực tinh thần để học một cái gì đó. Nó không thực sự chỉ dành riêng cho phần thưởng, vì vậy lúc đầu với con gái tôi, bạn biết đấy, cô bé đã từng là một đứa trẻ rất hăng hái, tham gia và kết nối xã hội rất tốt, bạn biết đấy, cô bé học rất giỏi ở trường. Và không phải lúc nào cô bé cũng hoàn hảo, nhưng cô ấy rất nhiệt tình, rất vui vẻ và có nhiều bạn bè. Rồi, bạn biết đấy, khi vào lớp 10, cô bé đã trở nên rút lui, cô bé đang nhận điểm D ở trường, không thể tập trung, không ngủ được và rất khổ sở. Cô bé thực sự đang chịu đựng, nhưng việc ở gần cô ấy thì thật khó chịu. Thành thật mà nói, lúc đầu, chúng tôi nghĩ rằng cô bé lười biếng. Chúng tôi nghĩ rằng, bạn biết đấy, cô bé không muốn làm gì cả. Cô bé muốn dành tất cả thời gian trong phòng. Cô bé không muốn, bạn biết đấy, muốn từ bỏ tất cả các hoạt động của mình. Và chúng tôi nghĩ, thôi nào, hãy cố gắng lên. Như kiểu, bạn đâu rồi, bạn biết đấy, chúng tôi nghĩ rằng cô bé đang lười biếng. Thực sự, tôi chưa bao giờ nghĩ tới điều này trong một triệu năm vì cô bé không có các triệu chứng tâm trạng nào khi còn nhỏ, không có triệu chứng nào cả. Rồi bỗng nhiên, cô bé dường như không có năng lượng để làm bất cứ điều gì. Nhưng với chúng tôi, nó trông như cô bé lười biếng và không muốn làm bài tập về nhà và dường như rất không hứng thú. Mất một thời gian dài tôi mới nhận ra, ôi không, đây là vấn đề khác. Cô bé gặp khó khăn trong việc nhớ các cuộc trò chuyện mà chúng tôi đã có. Lúc đầu, tôi nghĩ, ôi, bạn không chú ý đến tôi. Nhưng sau đó, thật rõ ràng rằng ngay cả trong cuộc sống hàng ngày, cô bé không thể nói cho tôi biết những gì đã xảy ra trong ngày của mình. Cô bé chỉ không có chi tiết nào. Đó cũng là một dấu hiệu của trầm cảm khi bạn mất đi trí nhớ hồi tưởng về những chi tiết của ngày. Bạn chỉ có thể nói ở mức tổng quát. Bạn không thể cung cấp chi tiết về thời gian, địa điểm và sự kiện. Bạn chỉ mất đi, bạn không giữ lại thông tin đó đủ lâu để có thể nhớ lại sau này. Không có sự củng cố thông tin đó. Và khi cô bé đang học lớp 10, bạn biết đấy, cô bé về nhà với những điểm D ở trường, điểm D trong môn toán. Đây là một đứa trẻ đã từng làm toán đại số cơ bản khi cô bé mới 8 tuổi. Chúng tôi đã nói với cô bé rằng chúng tôi phải cho cô bé được đánh giá vì chúng tôi không biết điều gì đang diễn ra. Và đó là khi chúng tôi nhận ra rằng cô bé bị trầm cảm lâm sàng. Một điều khác tôi muốn nói là cô bé đã có những cơn đau bụng kinh rất nghiêm trọng. Và vì vậy, một trong những phương pháp điều trị cho cơn đau bụng kinh nghiêm trọng là cho các cô gái sử dụng thuốc tránh thai. Bởi vì nó làm cân bằng biến động hormone trong tháng. Và thực sự nó cải thiện cơn đau bụng kinh. Nhưng hiện giờ nó khá nổi tiếng. Thời điểm đó không được biết nhiều, rằng có khoảng từ 40% đến 70% tăng khả năng mắc chứng trầm cảm nghiêm trọng ở những phụ nữ trẻ sử dụng thuốc tránh thai. Nếu đó là viên thuốc kết hợp estrogen-progesterone, thì khoảng 40%. Nếu đó là viên thuốc chỉ chứa progesterone, mà nhiều phụ nữ trẻ dùng vì nó có ít tác dụng phụ hơn, bạn sẽ có một mức tăng 70% về chứng trầm cảm nghiêm trọng. Và trong – nghiên cứu đầu tiên mà tôi đọc về điều này là trên một triệu phụ nữ. Và khi tôi đọc nghiên cứu đó, tôi nhớ chính xác tôi đang ở đâu. Đó là một khoảnh khắc bất ngờ. Tôi đã đọc nghiên cứu. Tôi đã gọi cho bác sĩ nhi khoa của con gái tôi. Và tôi đã nói, cô bé sẽ ngưng uống thuốc hôm nay. Hôm nay. Vì vậy, hãy cho tôi biết nếu có bất kỳ điều gì. Có tác dụng phụ nào không hay chúng tôi chỉ có thể dừng lại? Và ông ấy nói, à, theo ý kiến của tôi – và tôi như, tôi không quan tâm đến ý kiến của bạn. Tôi vừa đọc một nghiên cứu như – bạn biết đấy, đó là một nghiên cứu dịch tễ học quy mô lớn trên một triệu phụ nữ hôm nay. Cô bé sẽ ngừng lại hôm nay. Và điều này diễn ra sau hay trước khi cô bé trải qua trầm cảm? Đây là sau – có thể là một năm sau khi cô bé được chẩn đoán. Rất lâu sau, tôi đọc – tôi đang đọc một cuốn sách của Naomi Oreskes, nhà sử học về khoa học, và cô ấy đã viết một cuốn sách có tên Tại sao tin tưởng vào khoa học? Và đó là một cuốn sách tuyệt vời. Nhưng trong cuốn sách đó, cô nói về – cô đưa ra ví dụ về những nơi, những hiện tượng mà công chúng không tin vào khoa học nhưng họ nên làm vậy. Và đây là một trong số đó. Rõ ràng, nó đã được biết từ rất lâu. Và tôi chỉ muốn nhấn mạnh rằng estrogen, progesterone, testosterone đã phát triển như những người điều chỉnh chuyển hóa. Tôi nhấn mạnh điều này vì trong một nền văn hóa tách rời tâm thần khỏi thể chất, chúng ta không nghĩ về vai trò của chuyển hóa trong thị giác hoặc thậm chí là trong tâm trạng. Đó là một điều rất gần đây. Trong phòng thí nghiệm của chúng tôi, một trong những điều chúng tôi đang nghiên cứu bây giờ là vai trò của chuyển hóa trong những hiện tượng tâm lý rất cơ bản – như, chỉ đơn giản là một khối xây dựng cơ bản của tâm trí bạn, về cơ bản. Vì vậy, con gái bạn thể hiện những triệu chứng đó. Tôi rất tò mò muốn nghe y học cổ điển ở thời điểm đó đã nói gì với bạn về những gì bạn nên làm với con gái trong tình huống đó vào thời điểm đó so với những gì bạn đã làm. Bạn có một kho tàng thông tin. Bạn có nền tảng y tế. Vâng, tôi nên nói rằng điều này đã diễn ra – bạn biết đấy, đã vài năm trước, đúng không? Vì vậy, hiện tại, có một loại cách mạng đang diễn ra nơi mà thực sự có một cái gì đó được gọi là tâm lý học chuyển hóa bây giờ. Ngày trước khi điều này diễn ra – khi, bạn biết đấy, khi tôi đang đọc về điều này, nó nghe có vẻ điên rồ. Khi tôi thấy những gì con gái tôi đã – rằng cô bé đang chịu đựng, như, thực sự chịu đựng. Điều này thật khó cho tôi khi nói về điều này vì khi tôi nói chuyện với bạn về điều này, tôi đang nghĩ, tôi chỉ – Tôi ước rằng tôi – bạn biết đấy, tôi ước rằng tôi đã phát hiện ra điều này sớm hơn.
    Nhưng dù sao thì, những gì chúng tôi đã làm là tôi tìm mọi lộ trình có thể mà tôi có thể nghĩ ra để nhắm đến “ngân sách cơ thể” của cô ấy, tức là nhắm đến quá trình trao đổi chất của cô ấy. Sau đó, chúng tôi đã cùng nhau xây dựng một thói quen hàng ngày, và cô ấy đã tham gia vào việc tạo ra điều đó, để xem liệu chúng tôi có thể đặt cô ấy vào một quỹ đạo khác hay không.
    Điều đó bao gồm mọi thứ từ việc ngừng sử dụng mạng xã hội. Tại sao? Bởi vì, đầu tiên, cô ấy đang sử dụng, giống như nhiều đứa trẻ khác, cô ấy dùng màn hình vào khuya. Và vào thời điểm đó – lại một lần nữa, đây là điều mà tôi vô tình phát hiện ra, đúng không? Nhưng thực sự, tại một cuộc họp NCI, tại một cuộc họp của Viện Ung thư Quốc gia – bạn biết đấy, chúng ta có tế bào hạch võng mạc. Chúng ta có các tế bào trong võng mạc điều chỉnh nhịp sinh học, và chúng nhạy cảm với ánh sáng ở các bước sóng mà từ màn hình phát ra. Vì vậy, nếu bạn nhìn vào những màn hình đó vào ban đêm, bộ não của bạn nghĩ rằng đó là ban ngày, giống như nhịp sinh học của bạn – bạn tự tạo cho mình một rối loạn nhịp sinh học, cơ bản là vậy.
    Sẽ khó khăn hơn để có được một chu kỳ giấc ngủ đều đặn, và bạn cần chu kỳ giấc ngủ đều đặn đó để các độc tố được thanh lọc và để củng cố những gì bạn đã học trong suốt cả ngày để bạn có thể nhớ nó sau này. Rất nhiều điều phục hồi diễn ra trong giấc ngủ sâu mà bạn thực sự cần. Và nếu bạn không có đủ giấc ngủ sâu, điều đó sẽ làm tình trạng ngân sách của bạn tồi tệ hơn, cơ bản là vậy.
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi đã nhắm vào cô ấy – chúng tôi đã khiến cô ấy ngừng sử dụng mạng xã hội – mà trước tiên là tránh xa màn hình sau, bạn biết đấy, khoảng 7 giờ, 8 giờ tối, không màn hình. Ngừng sử dụng mạng xã hội để giảm sự bất ổn xã hội, căng thẳng xã hội. Tôi đã dậy cùng cô ấy lúc 5 giờ 30 mỗi sáng, làm bữa sáng cho cô ấy, ngồi cùng cô ấy khi cô ấy ăn sáng, để đảm bảo rằng cô ấy ăn thực phẩm dinh dưỡng, không phải thức ăn giả như, bạn biết đấy, Pop-Tarts và những thứ tương tự.
    Chúng tôi đã phải bắt đầu lại việc tập thể dục, vì vậy cô ấy đã bắt đầu đi bộ một khoảng cách dài. Cô ấy bắt đầu tập Pilates, không phải Pilates trên thảm mà là Pilates với máy reformer mà khiến bất kỳ ai cũng phải khóc, bạn biết đấy? Tại sao phải tập thể dục liên quan đến ngân sách này và các chức năng trao đổi chất? Bởi vì tập thể dục cơ bản – nó giống như bộ não của bạn – giống như bạn đang tự ném mình ra khỏi sự cân bằng trao đổi chất để bộ não có thể học cách đưa mình trở lại. Bạn đang cải thiện khả năng phục hồi của các hệ thống thể chất của mình, cơ bản là vậy – vì vậy cô ấy không – bạn biết đấy, cô ấy cần cái gì đó giống như tập luyện ngắt quãng, đó là điều mà các lớp Pilates này mang lại, thay vì, bạn biết đấy, tập để chơi quần vợt hay bất cứ thứ gì.
    Một cái gì đó mà – nơi mà cô ấy, bạn biết đấy, sau một khoảng thời gian nhất định, cô ấy sẽ bị mất cân bằng trao đổi chất, và sau đó cô ấy sẽ uống nước và ăn thứ gì đó lành mạnh. Và hệ thống của cô ấy cơ bản đang học cách trở nên linh hoạt hơn, không bị stuck như vậy. Vì vậy, một lần nữa, điều đó giống như việc liều lượng với lỗi dự đoán hoặc, như, cung cấp cho bộ não cơ hội để học rằng nó đã sai.
    Và sau đó là omega-3, vì vậy chúng tôi đã – tôi không nhớ liều chính xác, nhưng tôi đã liều cao omega-3, thấp omega-6. Với sự cho phép của bác sĩ của cô ấy, chúng tôi cũng đã sử dụng aspirin trẻ em một lần mỗi ngày trên dạ dày no để giảm viêm hệ thống. Vì vậy, trước khi đi ngủ – ý tôi là, trước khi đi ngủ, chúng tôi luôn làm điều như, ôm ấp, bạn biết đấy, khi cô ấy còn nhỏ, chúng tôi sẽ đọc một câu chuyện hay đại loại như vậy. Và trong những năm tuổi vị thành niên sớm, bạn biết đấy, cô ấy đã từ chối điều đó, và sau đó chúng tôi đã đưa nó trở lại.
    Vì vậy, một giờ trước khi đi ngủ, chúng tôi – hoặc là tôi hoặc bố cô ấy, đôi khi cả ba chúng tôi – chúng tôi sẽ đọc một cuốn sách cùng nhau, hoặc, bạn biết không, ông ấy sẽ đọc một cuốn sách cho chúng tôi. Hoặc chúng tôi sẽ – chúng tôi sẽ ngồi và trò chuyện, và cô ấy sẽ kể cho tôi, bạn biết đấy, tất cả những điều đang xảy ra ở trường mà cô ấy có thể nhớ. Và đôi khi chúng thật sự kinh khủng, và tôi chỉ cần đồng cảm. Điều đó thực sự khó khăn với tôi vì tôi chỉ muốn khắc phục nó. Tôi chỉ muốn khắc phục nó.
    Và thực sự – tôi đã phải rất cố gắng dựa vào kinh nghiệm của mình như một nhà trị liệu để chỉ ngồi với nỗi đau khổ và đồng cảm thay vì nói, làm điều này, làm điều này, làm điều này. Tôi mất nhiều thời gian để học điều đó, và đôi khi tôi vẫn gặp khó khăn với điều đó. Tại sao điều đó lại quan trọng? Bởi vì sau đó cô ấy cảm thấy được lắng nghe, và cô ấy cảm thấy được hiểu. Và khi bạn – tôi đã mất nhiều thời gian để học điều này. Khi cô ấy nói với tôi rằng, bạn biết đấy, ai đó đã làm điều gì đó thật sự tàn nhẫn, nếu tôi làm bất cứ điều gì khác ngoài việc đồng cảm, cô ấy sẽ cảm thấy như tôi đã không lắng nghe cô ấy. Và hỗ trợ xã hội là một yếu tố chính – ý tôi là, chúng ta là người chăm sóc hệ thần kinh của nhau. Con người là sinh vật xã hội. Thật khó để tin.
    Tôi nghĩ trong một nền văn hóa như của chúng ta, nơi mà chúng ta rất cá nhân, đúng không, và có vẻ như đó là một tuyên bố chính trị hay một điều gì đó, thực sự không quan trọng ý kiến chính trị của bạn là gì. Chúng ta tiến hóa theo cách mà chúng ta tiến hóa, người anh em. Chúng ta là sinh vật xã hội. Chúng ta ảnh hưởng đến nhau về mặt trao đổi chất. Chúng ta có thể thêm tiết kiệm, và chúng ta có thể thêm thuế. Và, bạn biết đấy, điều tốt nhất cho hệ thần kinh của con người là một con người khác. Điều tồi tệ nhất cho hệ thần kinh của con người là một con người khác. Người sai. Có rất nhiều thử nghiệm cho thấy điều đó – ý tôi là, tôi vừa thấy một loạt thử nghiệm từ một trong những cựu nghiên cứu sinh của tôi thật tuyệt vời, nơi cô ấy nhìn vào quá trình trao đổi glucose ở các bà mẹ và trẻ sơ sinh. Và tôi nghĩ cô ấy cũng đã làm điều đó ở các bạn hẹn hò, nếu tôi không nhầm. Cô ấy đã nhìn vào họ khi một mình và sau đó khi cùng nhau, như một mình trong khi làm một nhiệm vụ và sau đó cùng nhau làm một nhiệm vụ.
    Và các bà mẹ và trẻ sơ sinh kết nối tốt, thực sự – quá trình trao đổi glucose của họ hiệu quả hơn, như là thực sự hiệu quả hơn. Và tôi tin rằng cô ấy – tôi tin rằng cô ấy cũng đã chỉ ra điều này với các bạn hẹn hò. Bạn biết đấy, có những nghiên cứu, những nghiên cứu cũ cho thấy rằng, bạn biết đấy, việc đi lên một ngọn đồi với một cái ba lô sẽ ít tốn calo hơn nếu bạn đang ở cùng một người bạn hơn là nếu bạn đang ở cùng một người lạ.
    Ý tôi là, có rất nhiều phát hiện thực sự điên rồ mà – nhưng nếu bạn nhận ra rằng con người đang thực sự ảnh hưởng đến nhau trên một nền tảng vật lý, dù họ có nhận thức được điều đó hay không, dù họ có cố ý hay không, thì điều đó hoàn toàn không quan trọng. Hoặc tôi sẽ nói rằng, thật không cần thiết để có ảnh hưởng đó, để có những hiệu ứng đó ở đó, thì nó bắt đầu trở nên hợp lý. Bạn biết đấy, như ý tưởng rằng – và một lần nữa, các phân tích meta cho thấy bạn sẽ sống lâu hơn trung bình, nhiều năm hơn nếu bạn – nếu bạn có một đời sống xã hội tràn ngập những người mà bạn tin tưởng và họ tin tưởng bạn. Vậy có phải đó là lý do bạn có gia đình bên cạnh ngay trước khi đi ngủ không? Bởi vì họ đang điều tiết hệ thần kinh của cô ấy, cơ thể của cô ấy? Đúng thế. Đôi khi cô ấy vẫn nói điều này với tôi, thực sự. Cô ấy sẽ nói, bạn có thể làm bạn của tôi một phút và không phải là mẹ của tôi không? Tôi sẽ nói, ừ, tôi có thể. Và sau đó tôi thực sự phải làm điều đó, điều này đôi khi khó khăn. Hay tôi sẽ nói với cô ấy, đây là cho các bậc phụ huynh. Bất kỳ ai có con vị thành niên hay con trưởng thành, đây là một trong những – tôi không biết tôi đã nghĩ ra điều này như thế nào, nhưng nó như vàng, đúng không? Tôi nói với cô ấy, tôi có thể – tôi đang có một khoảnh khắc của mẹ khi tôi cảm thấy cần phải nhắc nhở bạn về điều gì đó. Và nếu tôi có thể chỉ nhắc bạn một chút về điều đó, tôi sẽ không cần phải nói lại cho bạn lần nữa. Thế nên tôi đang cơ bản hỏi ý kiến của cô ấy. Tôi có thể cho bạn biết điều này không, điều mà tôi thực sự muốn nói với bạn? Và tôi biết bạn không muốn nghe nó, nhưng bạn sẽ thực sự làm một việc tốt cho tôi nếu bạn chỉ lắng nghe tôi trong một phút. Và tôi biết đó là tôi. Tất cả là tôi. Không phải bạn. Tất cả đều là lỗi của tôi. Đây là tôi. Nhưng tôi chỉ – sẽ tốt hơn nếu bạn có thể để tôi. Và hầu hết thời gian cô ấy nói, bạn biết đấy, với sự kiên nhẫn lớn, đúng không? Như, chắc chắn rồi, mẹ ơi, cứ tiếp tục. Đôi khi cô ấy nói, không phải hôm nay. Và sau đó tôi thực sự phải lắng nghe, bạn biết không? Vậy, đúng rồi. Nhưng có thể còn nhiều điều khác mà tôi không nghĩ đến ngay bây giờ. Tôi đã ghi lại tất cả vì rất nhiều người đã hỏi tôi câu hỏi này. Và điều tôi thích nói là đây là – tôi không phải là bác sĩ. Tôi không phải là bác sĩ tâm thần. Đây không phải là một khuyến nghị hay công thức cho các con của bạn. Tôi chỉ đang kể cho bạn những gì tôi đã làm như một nhà khoa học. Và bạn đã ghi lại những gì bạn đã làm. Bạn vẫn còn một bản sao của điều đó. Vì vậy, tôi có thể liên kết bên dưới cho bất kỳ ai muốn đọc những gì bạn đã làm. Vâng, nhưng – một lần nữa, đó là – Đó là những gì bạn đã làm cho con gái của bạn vào thời điểm đó. Đúng vậy, chỉ như một người. Người đã đọc tài liệu, tôi – đây không phải – đây không phải là lời khuyên y tế. Tôi thực sự rất mạnh mẽ – và tôi cũng nên nói thêm, bạn không thể ép con vị thành niên của mình làm điều gì đó. Bạn thậm chí không thể thực sự ép con cái của bạn làm điều gì đó trừ khi bạn đe dọa chúng bằng tổn hại thể xác. Chúng phải tự đưa ra lựa chọn đó, đúng không? Và cô ấy đã bình phục? Có, cô ấy đã. Và tôi nghĩ một trong những lý do tại sao cô ấy bây giờ tốt, không phải là cô ấy không bao giờ có những thách thức với tâm trạng của mình, nhưng cô ấy hiểu chúng theo cách vật lý. Cô ấy không hiểu tâm trạng của mình là vấn đề tâm lý. Cô ấy hiểu nó như một triệu chứng hoặc một thanh đo ngân sách cơ thể của cô ấy. Đây là điều tôi đã học từ công việc của bạn trong khi tôi đang nghiên cứu, điều này thực sự, thực sự hữu ích cho tôi. Và nó gần như hoàn toàn đúng với những gì bạn vừa nói, đó là đôi khi tôi có tâm trạng không tốt. Và nếu tôi không ý thức về điều đó, thì tâm trạng tồi tệ có thể gây rối, đúng không? Tôi có thể trở nên cáu gắt với mọi người hoặc bất cứ điều gì. Và khi tôi đọc công việc của bạn và suy nghĩ về tâm trạng xấu hay tốt trong bối cảnh ngân sách cơ thể này, điều đó làm bạn dừng lại một giây và nghĩ, cái gì tôi đang thiếu? Và nó làm bạn rất ý thức về những gì bạn sau đó làm. Nó gần như làm bạn đột nhiên nắm lấy tay lái và nói, được rồi, vậy có một vấn đề ở đây. Đó là một vấn đề thể chất. Tôi đã không ngủ đủ giấc tối qua. Tôi chưa ăn. Dù sao đi nữa, hãy thực sự nhận thức về những gì điều này làm cho bạn hoặc cảm thấy hoặc nghĩ. Và những hành động mà bạn cần thực hiện có thể là hủy bỏ mọi thứ bạn đã lên kế hoạch cho hôm nay và quay lại giường. Vâng, nhưng tôi nghĩ rằng bạn vừa chỉ ra điều thực sự quan trọng. Đó là nó thay đổi những gì bạn sẽ làm tiếp theo. Đúng. Và điều đó thay đổi quỹ đạo của những gì xảy ra. Và tôi nghĩ điều này thực sự – không phải giống như một phép chữa kỳ diệu. Và một lần nữa, bạn biết đấy, nhưng khi ai đó – khi bạn cảm thấy thực sự lo lắng, bạn hoặc nhìn theo thế giới, như có gì sai với thế giới, hoặc bạn nhìn vào bản thân. Có gì sai với tôi? Và thực sự, có thể có. Có thể có điều gì đó sai với thế giới. Có thể có điều gì đó sai với bạn. Nhưng khả năng cao nhất, đó là một vấn đề ngân sách cơ thể. Ngay cả khi có trường hợp là có điều gì đó sai với thế giới, bạn sẽ được trang bị tốt hơn để đối phó với điều đó nếu bạn đang quản lý ngân sách cơ thể của mình. Bạn thực sự cần phải thiết kế lịch trình của mình càng nhiều càng tốt trong giới hạn của nghề nghiệp mà bạn có xung quanh ngân sách cơ thể đó. Và với tôi, sự thay đổi lớn mà tôi thực hiện hai năm trước – tôi rất đặc quyền, tôi hiểu điều đó, và mọi người cũng có thể làm điều đó. Tôi không thể làm điều đó khi tôi làm việc trong các trung tâm gọi – là tôi đã thực hiện một quy tắc mà không có cuộc họp nào trước 11 giờ. Và điều này có nghĩa rằng tôi không bao giờ đặt báo thức, vì vậy tôi tỉnh dậy khi tôi đã hoàn toàn được nạp lại. Và đó là điều sâu sắc nhất. Tôi lẽ ra nên làm điều này sớm hơn. Nhưng điều đó đã có ảnh hưởng rất lớn đến cuộc sống của tôi. Bởi vì bạn gần như có thể đảm bảo rằng rất hiếm khi tôi không ngủ đủ giấc, mặc dù điều đó xảy ra vì tôi phải đi công tác và các thứ nhiều. Nhưng điều đó thực sự đã có tác động sâu sắc đến cuộc sống của tôi. Vâng, và tôi nghĩ, bạn biết đấy – Và với tư cách là một người lãnh đạo và – Chính xác. Và tôi nghĩ, thành thật mà nói, nếu các nhà lãnh đạo coi trọng điều này, thì hy vọng là sẽ có một sự nhận thức nào đó rằng điều này cũng quan trọng với mọi người. Và, bạn biết đấy, chúng ta có một xã hội được cấu trúc theo một cách nhất định, nhưng không có yêu cầu rằng nó phải được cấu trúc theo cách này. Có, bạn biết đấy, yếu tố dự đoán lớn nhất về năng suất làm việc sau, bạn biết đấy, là giấc ngủ và sự cung cấp nước.
    Và sau khi bạn loại bỏ giấc ngủ và sự hydrat hóa, tôi nghĩ rằng tập thể dục cũng nằm trong số đó. Bạn biết đấy, một số chúng ta có nhiều lựa chọn hơn những người khác, đúng không? Nhưng tôi nghĩ điều quan trọng là những người là giám đốc điều hành, những người lãnh đạo, những người lãnh đạo trong kinh doanh, cần hiểu rằng có những lý do kinh doanh hợp lý. Có những lý do kinh tế hợp lý để xem xét điều này một cách nghiêm túc. Tôi có đúng khi nghĩ rằng rượu ảnh hưởng đến “ngân sách cơ thể” của bạn và do đó làm cho bạn khó khăn hơn trong việc thể hiện tất cả các hành vi khác và tiêu tốn năng lượng ở các lĩnh vực khác, và do đó cũng làm tăng xác suất bạn sẽ bị trầm cảm?
    Vì vậy, tôi nên nói rằng tôi không phải là một chuyên gia về chuyển hóa rượu, vì vậy tôi sẽ suy diễn dựa trên những gì tôi biết. Và những gì tôi muốn nói ở đây là đôi khi mọi người uống rượu như họ ăn sô-cô-la hoặc, bạn biết đấy, họ làm điều đó vì hương vị hoặc vì trải nghiệm, đúng chứ? Nhưng nhiều người lại sử dụng rượu. Họ có thể bắt đầu theo cách đó hoặc họ có thể bắt đầu vì họ đang làm điều gì đó với bạn bè, nhưng sau đó họ nhận ra rằng nó ảnh hưởng đến tâm trạng của họ. Nó ảnh hưởng đến tâm trạng của họ. Bất cứ điều gì ảnh hưởng đến tâm trạng của bạn, như mọi người thường nói rất nhiều về việc điều chỉnh cảm xúc, nhưng thực ra là điều chỉnh tâm trạng. Một lần nữa, bạn biết đấy, tâm trạng của bạn là những cảm xúc đơn giản luôn đồng hành với bạn. Bạn biết đấy, bộ não của bạn luôn điều chỉnh cơ thể của bạn. Cơ thể của bạn luôn gửi tín hiệu trở lại cho bộ não, từ đó tạo ra tâm trạng. Vì vậy, tâm trạng là một thuộc tính của ý thức. Nó luôn ở bên bạn. Đôi khi, trong những khoảnh khắc bạn sẽ lý giải các tín hiệu và tâm trạng đi kèm với nó theo cách liên quan đến thế giới bên ngoài. Và đó là lúc bạn cảm nhận cảm xúc, đúng không? Nơi mà hành động của bạn liên kết cả hai với nhau theo tâm trạng của bạn. Nhưng thường xuyên hơn, chúng ta không làm vậy. Chúng ta chỉ trải nghiệm tâm trạng như một thuộc tính của ý thức. Bạn biết đấy, đây là một đồ uống ngon. Người đó là một tên ngu ngốc. Bạn rất đáng tin cậy. Tâm trạng được nhúng trong nhận thức về thế giới. Và khi mọi người, cũng giống như đôi khi các loại thuốc giảm đau có tác dụng này. Chúng là thuốc thay đổi tâm trạng, có nghĩa là nếu chúng đang thao túng tâm trạng của bạn, chúng đang thao túng sự chuyển hóa của bạn. Và khi mọi người trở nên nghiện, họ thường trở nên nghiện vì họ đang điều chỉnh tâm trạng của mình. Họ đang cố gắng giảm bớt nỗi khổ. Vấn đề với, hoặc một vấn đề, tôi không nên nói vấn đề vì tôi không biết chính xác tâm trạng, chính xác rượu ảnh hưởng đến sự chuyển hóa như thế nào. Dự đoán của tôi là nó không chỉ theo một cách, mà nó cũng có các hiệu ứng theo ngữ cảnh, thực sự. Vì vậy, bạn có thể uống chính xác cùng một lượng rượu và nó có thể có những tác động khác nhau trong những ngữ cảnh khác nhau. Điều đó đã làm tôi bất ngờ khi tôi thấy nghiên cứu đó. Vì vậy, tôi nghĩ rằng đó không phải là một mối quan hệ đơn giản, nhưng một điều tôi biết là những dự đoán của bạn trở nên kém chính xác hơn và bạn không tiếp thu được sai sót trong dự đoán. Bạn không học hỏi. Bạn sẽ không cập nhật bất kỳ điều gì, bạn biết đấy, và do đó, hành vi của bạn không nhất thiết phải được điều chỉnh tốt với tình huống mà bạn đang ở, điều này có thể dẫn đến đủ loại vấn đề khó khăn về sau. Bạn biết đấy, bạn có thể làm mọi thứ trở nên tồi tệ hơn cho bản thân và làm cho việc lập ngân sách sau này trở nên khó khăn hơn.
    Có phải thật sự khó chịu không khi bạn đang gấp rút rời khỏi nhà nhưng không thể tìm thấy điện thoại hoặc ví của mình? Bây giờ, nhờ vào Apple, nếu bạn có iPhone, bạn có thể theo dõi nó bằng cách sử dụng Find My. Nhưng cho đến gần đây, điều này không thể thực hiện nếu bạn làm thất lạc ví của mình. Nhưng bây giờ điều đó đã thay đổi nhờ vào nhà tài trợ ngày hôm nay, Exter. Exter là sản phẩm đầu tiên như vậy. Bằng cách hợp tác với Apple, họ đã tạo ra một chiếc ví có thể theo dõi được, vì vậy nếu bạn làm thất lạc ví của mình, bạn có thể tìm thấy nó trong vài giây. Đây chính là chiếc ví. Và bạn có thể nhận ra Exter từ sự hợp tác của họ với Lionel Messi. Nó rất mỏng, làm từ nhôm tái chế với tính năng chặn RFID tích hợp để bảo vệ khỏi việc ăn cắp danh tính. Và với một cú nhấp chuột, tất cả thẻ của bạn hiện lên để bạn có thể chạm và đi. Tôi thường nói về các cải tiến 1%. Và khi tôi nhìn vào Exter, đối với tôi, đó là sự kết hợp của rất nhiều cải tiến 1% trên chiếc ví truyền thống. Vì vậy, nếu bạn đang tìm kiếm một nâng cấp, hãy ghé thăm Exter.com và sử dụng mã Stephen để được giảm thêm 10% trong chương trình giảm giá mùa xuân của họ, sẽ kết thúc vào ngày 19 tháng 5. Hãy ghé qua đó ngay bây giờ và kiểm tra nó. Bạn cũng được miễn phí giao hàng và trải nghiệm 100 ngày thử nghiệm. Đó là Exter.com với mã Stephen.
    Tôi muốn hỏi bạn về điều gì đó mà tôi đã nghe bạn nói. Và tôi thực sự đã nghe những khách mời khác trên podcast của tôi nói điều đó. Và tôi chưa bao giờ chắc chắn liệu điều đó có đúng hay không cho đến khi tôi nghe bạn nói, đó là chúng ta có thể thay đổi cảm xúc của mình bằng cách mỉm cười. Bởi vì nếu bộ não đang dự đoán, thì có khả năng nếu tôi mỉm cười lớn và tôi nói “có”, thì bộ não sẽ dự đoán những cảm giác tốt đẹp và sẽ gây ra những cảm giác tốt đẹp, v.v. và v.v. Vậy bạn có làm cho tôi cảm thấy tốt về bản thân không? Nó cũng có, nhưng mà không hoàn toàn. Tôi nghĩ, bạn biết đấy, mọi người cũng cười khi họ không vui. Mọi người mỉm cười khi họ tức giận. Mọi người mỉm cười khi họ đang âm thầm lập kế hoạch cho sự sụp đổ của kẻ thù. Bạn biết đấy, mọi người mỉm cười vì đủ loại lý do. Mọi người cười khi họ sợ hãi. Nhưng liệu tôi có thể làm cho mình hạnh phúc hơn theo cách nào đó bằng cách mỉm cười không? Các bằng chứng phân tích tổng hợp cho thấy rằng có một tác động nhẹ, rằng có một ảnh hưởng nhỏ – vâng, vâng. Nheo mắt vào – nheo. Đó rồi đấy. Giống như việc đặt một cây bút giữa hai hàm răng của bạn. Không, cứ tiếp tục. Ôi, bạn cần điều đó, phải không? Bây giờ mỉm cười. Bây giờ nheo mắt. Được rồi. Vậy nó giống như vậy. Và tôi sẽ nói rằng đó là một tác động rất nhỏ. Giống như nó rất nhỏ. Tôi cảm thấy hạnh phúc hơn. Còn bạn? Vâng. Nhưng đó chính là vì tôi đã làm cho bạn làm một điều gì đó ngớ ngẩn có lẽ? Có thể, vâng. Nhưng tóm lại, điểm là nó bị phóng đại như một tác động. Tôi nghĩ có một tác động nhỏ – theo như tôi nhớ, phân tích tổng hợp cuối cùng tôi đọc cho thấy rằng có một tác động nhỏ.
    Nhưng một hiệu ứng nhỏ có nghĩa là nó không hiệu quả với mọi người và không phải lúc nào cũng hiệu quả. Nó chỉ thực sự, thực sự là một hiệu ứng rất, rất nhỏ. Bạn phải có một cái nhìn về ADHD, thứ đã trở thành một chủ đề lớn trong xã hội. Tôi đã được chẩn đoán mắc ADHD. Tôi không nhất thiết phải coi đó là điều gì đó quan trọng vì tôi đã thấy rất nhiều biến thể của ADHD ở bạn bè của mình. Nhưng đã có một sự gia tăng lớn về ADHD và liên quan đến công việc mà bạn đã làm về bộ não như một công cụ dự đoán. Vì vậy, phản ứng tổng quát của tôi là như sau: Có một sự gia tăng ở những người tự chẩn đoán và trong việc sử dụng chẩn đoán như một giải thích cho hành vi hoặc lý do tại sao mọi người trải nghiệm những gì họ trải nghiệm hay bất cứ điều gì. Các chẩn đoán không phải là giải thích cho bất kỳ điều gì. Chúng chỉ là mô tả. Chúng không giải thích điều gì cả. Và việc coi một chẩn đoán như một giải thích là một dạng tinh tế hóa, điều này không phải là tốt. Nó có nghĩa là bạn đang giả định rằng có một dạng bản chất tiềm tàng, không thay đổi, chịu trách nhiệm cho – thực tế, có một cái gọi là chủ nghĩa thiết yếu tâm lý, nơi mà bạn thậm chí không biết bản chất đó là gì. Bạn chỉ giả định rằng nó tồn tại, bạn chỉ giả định rằng nó tồn tại, và rằng đó là nguyên nhân gây ra tất cả những triệu chứng này. Nhưng một chẩn đoán chỉ là một mô tả về triệu chứng. Và các chẩn đoán chủ yếu hữu ích cho việc lập hóa đơn các giờ điều trị. Chúng không được tối ưu hóa cho việc mô tả các nhóm hành vi mà bạn biết, hoặc tập hợp các hành vi thường đi cùng nhau. Vì đôi khi mọi người nghĩ rằng serotonin và dopamine là lý do tại sao ai đó có ADHD. Đó là một trong những lý thuyết mà tôi đã – Vì vậy, có nhiều thụ thể serotonin khác nhau. Có nhiều thụ thể dopamine khác nhau. Chúng không đều làm một việc giống nhau. Serotonin không làm một việc. Dopamine không làm một việc. Nó thực hiện những việc khác nhau ở những nơi khác nhau trong cơ thể và bộ não, tùy thuộc vào các thụ thể là gì. Và cũng vậy, mỗi nguồn lực về khả năng phục hồi và mỗi triệu chứng khó khăn đều có một ngữ cảnh nhất định. Có những yêu cầu, cách xã hội của chúng ta được cấu trúc, có những yêu cầu về việc ngồi và chú ý vào một điều gì đó trong thời gian dài. Và yêu cầu đó thường bị ẩn giấu ở phía sau. Nó tồn tại đến mức chúng ta quên rằng đó là điều kiện – đó là điều kiện mà việc chẩn đoán được thực hiện. Vì vậy, bất cứ điều gì – trước hết, ADHD không phải là một tập hợp triệu chứng. Nó là một sự đa dạng. Nó giống như – bạn biết đấy, có rất nhiều biến thể trong cách mà – bạn có thể có các hồ sơ triệu chứng khác nhau và có cùng một chẩn đoán vì nó chỉ là mô tả và có rất nhiều triệu chứng. Một số triệu chứng đó cũng xuất hiện trong – chúng chồng chéo với các hội chứng khác, các nhóm chẩn đoán khác. Nhưng điểm quan trọng là, khi bạn chẩn đoán ai đó, nó nghe như là đó là một đặc điểm của người đó. Đúng không? Nhưng không phải vậy. Đó là một đặc điểm của một người trong ngữ cảnh mà họ đang ở. Và mong đợi xã hội – theo bất kỳ tiêu chuẩn nào, giống như liệu anh ấy có thể chú ý trong trường học không? Ồ, đúng. Và cách mà trường học được tổ chức là, bạn biết đấy, bạn ngồi trong thời gian dài. Ồ, có thể có những hoàn cảnh khác mà việc không giữ sự chú ý vào một điều gì đó trong thời gian dài có thể có lợi. Vì vậy, ý tôi là có rất ít điều là hoàn toàn tốt hoặc hoàn toàn xấu. Luôn luôn có một điều kiện ẩn. Chắc chắn. Luôn luôn có một ngữ cảnh ẩn. Và vì vậy tôi nghĩ rằng thực sự quan trọng để đưa ngữ cảnh đó ra phía trước. Bạn không hỏng hóc. Bạn chỉ là – khả năng thích ứng của bạn với một ngữ cảnh nhất định đã được coi là – không phù hợp. Nó không hiệu quả cho ngữ cảnh đó. Và điều đó có thể nghe như những từ mập mờ hoặc có thể bạn biết đấy, nhưng không phải vì nó quan trọng mà các năng lực là theo ngữ cảnh. Và một lần nữa, tôi sẽ nói rằng đây không phải là, bạn biết đấy, tôi là một người có trái tim quảng đại, bạn biết đấy, tiến bộ hoặc bất cứ điều gì. Ý tôi là, tôi là một người có trái tim quảng đại, nhưng đây không phải là một ví dụ cho điều đó. Đây là một ví dụ về việc tôi thực dụng. Bạn có thể điều chỉnh nhau, điều mà bạn đã nói đến trước đây, điều mà tôi thấy thực sự, thực sự thú vị. Tôi đã đọc về một nghiên cứu về 25.000 người và họ tìm thấy rằng những người bị đau tim có xác suất sống sót cao hơn 14% nếu họ đã kết hôn. Nhưng điều khác mà tôi thấy thú vị là chúng ta điều chỉnh nhau bằng lời nói. Và tôi nghĩ bạn đã thực hiện một nghiên cứu về việc đánh giá sức mạnh của từ ngữ để tạo điều kiện cho cảm xúc. Bạn đã – đó là một nghiên cứu mà bạn cùng tác giả. Chúng tôi đã nghiên cứu sức mạnh của từ ngữ trong nhiều ngữ cảnh, bao gồm cả từ ngữ như những lời mời để hiểu được – bạn biết đấy, vì vậy nếu một trường hợp cảm xúc là bạn tạo ý nghĩa cho những gì đang xảy ra bên trong cơ thể bạn liên quan đến thế giới, thì bạn có thể – bạn mời – mỗi lần bạn sử dụng một từ cảm xúc, bạn mời mọi người tạo ra ý nghĩa theo cách đó. Vì vậy, bạn đã chứng minh, đúng không, rằng một số từ có thể làm dịu chúng ta? Vâng, nhưng tôi sẽ không nói rằng tôi đã chứng minh bất cứ điều gì. Các nhà khoa học không – Bạn biết đấy – Chứng minh, chứng tỏ. Vâng, chứng tỏ trong một – bạn biết đấy, trong một ngữ cảnh, đúng không? Giống như, chúng tôi – bạn biết đấy, các nhà khoa học không thích từ F. Tôi thích từ F khác, nhưng sự thật. Sự thật. Đó là một điều khó khăn vì nó có nghĩa là điều gì đó giữ vững trong mọi hoàn cảnh và mọi ngữ cảnh, và điều đó rất hiếm xảy ra. Vì vậy – nhưng vâng, chúng tôi đã. Vì vậy – và ý tôi là, nếu bạn đã làm điều đó có lẽ hàng triệu lần, bạn nhắn tin cho người khác, đúng không? Vâng. Vâng, và khi bạn nhắn tin một vài từ cho bạn đời hoặc bạn bè, bạn có thể thay đổi nhịp tim của họ. Bạn thay đổi nhịp thở của họ. Bạn có thể thay đổi đủ loại hóa chất, đủ loại tổng hợp protein chỉ với một vài từ. Một lần nữa, bạn biết đấy, chúng ta sống trong một – bạn biết đấy, tự do ngôn luận là quan trọng. Những quyền tự do là quan trọng, nhưng những quyền tự do đi kèm với trách nhiệm. Thích hay không, chúng ta điều chỉnh hệ thần kinh của nhau theo đủ mọi cách, bao gồm cả bằng lời nói. Và – Cho tốt hơn hoặc xấu hơn. Cho tốt hơn hoặc xấu hơn.
    Chính xác.
    Và vì vậy –
    Bạn thực sự đã khiến tôi suy nghĩ khác về căng thẳng nói chung.
    Bởi vì nếu tôi nhìn cuộc sống của mình qua lăng kính của ngân sách chuyển hóa này và căng thẳng là một gánh nặng đối với ngân sách này, thì nếu tôi không hạn chế căng thẳng của mình, tôi có khả năng vượt quá ngân sách hơn nhiều.
    Và nếu tôi vượt quá ngân sách, có thể hệ miễn dịch của tôi sẽ là thứ tôi cắt giảm chi phí hay là thứ gì đó khác.
    Đúng vậy.
    Ý tôi là, có một cái tốt – bạn không thể sống mà không có căng thẳng.
    Điều đó có nghĩa là bạn sẽ không có nỗ lực.
    Vì vậy, bạn biết đấy, đôi khi các nhà khoa học sẽ nói về căng thẳng tốt và căng thẳng xấu, mà thực sự chỉ có nghĩa là căng thẳng được lập kế hoạch và nơi bạn bổ sung những gì bạn chi tiêu và căng thẳng có hại mà bạn không bổ sung.
    Căng thẳng mãn tính.
    Căng thẳng mãn tính hoặc, bạn biết đấy.
    Vì vậy, bạn biết đấy, nếu bạn đang ở một cuộc họp căng thẳng, một cuộc họp ảnh hưởng đến tâm trạng của bạn, điều đó có nghĩa là đã có một số tác động chuyển hóa, hãy cân nhắc điều đó có ý nghĩa gì.
    Với tất cả những gì bạn biết về não bộ, tôi tự hỏi liệu bạn – nếu điều đó đã thay đổi quan điểm của bạn về tôn giáo, Chúa và tâm linh hay không, và liệu có một sức mạnh cao hơn nào đó không.
    Não bộ là một thứ thật tuyệt vời, phức tạp và xinh đẹp.
    Bạn biết đấy, một người quan sát khách quan vào năm 2025 nhìn vào não bộ vì điều này thật tuyệt vời.
    Nhiều người sau đó kết luận rằng chắc chắn phải có một nhà sáng tạo của bộ não đó.
    Nhưng chúng ta cũng đã nói rất nhiều hôm nay về ý nghĩa và mục đích của nó.
    Vì vậy, tất cả những gì bạn đã học về não bộ, thần kinh học và tâm lý học, đã khiến bạn tin vào một vị thần hay chưa?
    Không.
    Nó đã khiến bạn thêm phần vô thần hay hoài nghi không?
    Tôi khá chắc chắn là một người vô thần.
    Tôi không nghĩ rằng sự phức tạp kỳ diệu của tự nhiên hoặc của não bộ hay hệ thần kinh cần một nhà thiết kế.
    VàLogic đó không có ý nghĩa với tôi.
    Vì vậy, đây rõ ràng là một bước nhảy vọt khủng khiếp.
    Nhưng bạn có nghĩ rằng không có ý nghĩa vốn có nào trong cuộc sống ngoài, bạn biết đấy, như, sinh sản và –
    Tôi đang đọc cuốn sách này lần thứ hai.
    Nó có tên là “Open Socrates”.
    Được rồi.
    Và đây là một cuốn sách thực sự tuyệt vời.
    Và tôi đã học được rất nhiều về triết lý Socratic mà tôi chưa biết.
    Một trong những điều mà Socrates cho là quan trọng là đặt ra câu hỏi về ý nghĩa.
    Và bạn không nên hỏi câu hỏi này trong các khoảng thời gian 15 phút.
    Bạn nên thực sự hỏi câu hỏi này về cả cuộc đời của bạn.
    Vì vậy, tôi nghĩ, nếu có gì, việc trở thành một nhà khoa học nghiên cứu cách mà một bộ não liên tục trò chuyện với cơ thể và các bộ não, cơ thể khác trong thế giới của chúng ta và ngay cả bản chất vật lý của thế giới của chúng ta,
    Cách mà điều đó tạo ra rất nhiều tâm trí, bao gồm cả tâm trí phương Tây của chúng ta, khiến tôi suy nghĩ nhiều hơn về tầm quan trọng của triết học, thực sự.
    Bởi vì tôi nghĩ triết học đang đặt ra những câu hỏi giống như những câu hỏi mà niềm tin tôn giáo cố gắng trả lời.
    Và đối với tôi, đó là một con đường tốt hơn.
    Tôi nghĩ đó là một con đường thoải mái hơn.
    Tôi thường đã đặt ra những câu hỏi như thế này suốt cuộc đời mình, thực sự.
    Vì vậy, điều đó khiến tôi cảm thấy như, điểm cuối cùng là gì?
    Ấy là, điểm cuối cùng là gì?
    Tôi nghĩ câu trả lời dành cho tôi, điểm cuối cùng, là để lại thế giới này tốt đẹp hơn một chút so với khi tôi tìm thấy nó.
    Nó giống như triết lý của Johnny Appleseed, bạn biết đấy.
    Bạn biết đấy, như một nhà khoa học, các nhà khoa học thường, bạn biết đấy, nhiều người trong chúng tôi, chúng tôi không làm những gì chúng tôi đang làm vì tiền.
    Tiền không xấu.
    Nhưng chúng tôi không làm những gì chúng tôi đang làm vì tiền.
    Chúng tôi làm vì các động cơ khác, đúng không?
    Để biết, để tò mò, để cố gắng khám phá những điều.
    Và ở một số thời điểm, chúng tôi bắt đầu nghĩ về, ồ, di sản của bạn là gì, đúng không?
    Hầu hết trong chúng ta không phải là Darwin.
    Chúng tôi không phải William James.
    Chúng tôi không phải, bạn biết đấy, Heisenberg.
    Chúng tôi không phải, bạn biết đấy, hầu hết trong chúng ta không phải những người đó.
    Vậy di sản của bạn là gì?
    Và cuối cùng, tôi nhận ra rằng tôi đã công bố rất nhiều bài báo đã được phản biện.
    Khi mọi người giới thiệu tôi, bạn biết đấy, họ thường nói một cái gì đó về trích dẫn của tôi, bạn biết đấy, mọi người, bất kỳ ai.
    Tiến sĩ Lisa là một trong những nhân vật có ảnh hưởng nhất trong lĩnh vực cảm xúc, thần kinh học và bản chất của não bộ.
    Cô ấy nằm trong số 0,1% các nhà khoa học được trích dẫn nhiều nhất trên thế giới nhờ vào nghiên cứu cách mạng của cô ấy trong tâm lý học và thần kinh học.
    Vâng, điều đó nghe thật tuyệt, rất tuyệt.
    Nhưng thực sự, di sản của tôi thật ra là những người mà tôi đã đào tạo, những tâm trí mà tôi đã có cơ hội tương tác.
    Và nếu tôi phải tính toán, tôi có thể tính số lượng phòng thí nghiệm hiện đang tồn tại mà trước đây không có, nhiều thế hệ nhà khoa học mà tôi đã đào tạo, hoặc những người, bạn biết đấy, và cũng những người đã đào tạo tôi, tôi muốn nói, trên đường đi.
    Vì vậy, đó là di sản của tôi theo một cách nào đó, thực sự, đó là những con người, đó là những con người, và những ý tưởng.
    Và tôi muốn nghĩ rằng, bạn biết đấy, khi tôi từng dạy học trong lớp nhiều, tôi cảm thấy rằng, những gì tôi tự nhủ là, nếu tôi có thể thay đổi quỹ đạo, kết quả của chỉ một người trong lớp này, chỉ một, thì tôi sẽ coi đó là hoàn thành nhiệm vụ của mình.
    Bạn biết đấy, và tôi cảm thấy có phần như vậy, bạn biết đấy, và tôi có phần như vậy một chút, kiểu như vậy về công chúng, về cái mặt công chúng của những gì tôi đang làm, đúng không?
    Giáo dục khoa học công chúng.
    Nếu tôi có thể giúp, nếu tôi có thể giúp, nếu điều gì đó mà tôi đã học hoặc điều gì đó tôi đã truyền đạt có thể giúp ai đó sống một cuộc sống có chủ đích hơn
    cuộc sống của các tác nhân có khả năng, nơi họ đang lựa chọn và họ đang tác động đến những người yêu thương của họ hoặc con cái của họ, thì, thì đó là, thì tôi đã làm được nhiệm vụ của mình.
    Đó là di sản của tôi.
    Và điều khó khăn về loại di sản đó, một di sản của các ý tưởng ảnh hưởng đến cuộc sống của mọi người, là bạn không bao giờ biết được tác động của mình là gì.
    Nhưng đó là một phần của thỏa thuận.
    Chúng tôi có một truyền thống đóng podcast nơi khách mời cuối cùng để lại một câu hỏi cho khách mời tiếp theo, không biết họ đang để lại cho ai.
    Câu hỏi là, làm thế nào để sống một cuộc sống mà không đạt được bất cứ điều gì?
    Tôi có một số bối cảnh về người này.
    Họ là một người nắm đai đen, nhà sư Shaolin.
    Vì vậy, họ nói rất nhiều về bản sắc.
    Chắc chắn rồi.
    Và họ, và sống mà không có chướng ngại và ràng buộc và những thứ như vậy.
    Đúng vậy.
    Vì vậy, nó nghe giống như một câu hỏi rất Phật giáo.
    Vấn đề là tôi nghĩ rằng ngay cả khi một người Phật giáo đạt được điều gì đó, họ cũng đạt được sự giác ngộ. Vì vậy, họ không nhất thiết phải có sự gắn bó. Họ không có của cải. Họ không có quyền lực. Họ không có, nhưng họ đạt được điều gì đó. Họ đạt được sự giác ngộ. Họ đạt được sự bình yên. Thế còn việc sống cuộc sống mà không có danh tính của bạn thì sao? Khiến bạn không vui? Chà, tôi nghĩ điều quan trọng là phải nhớ rằng bạn thực sự không có một danh tính tách biệt khỏi khoảnh khắc mà bạn đang trải qua. Không phải là có một bản chất nào đó ở bạn. Và điều tôi muốn nói là mọi thứ bạn trải nghiệm, mọi thứ bạn làm là sự kết hợp giữa quá khứ đã nhớ và hiện tại có cảm giác. Điều đó có nghĩa là để thay đổi bạn là ai, bạn có thể thay đổi những gì bạn nhớ hoặc cách bạn dự đoán, hoặc bạn có thể thay đổi hiện tại có cảm giác bằng cách đi đứng hoặc di chuyển đến nơi khác, chẳng hạn như đi dạo. Hoặc bạn có thể thay đổi hiện tại có cảm giác bằng những gì bạn chú ý đến, chánh niệm, chẳng hạn đúng không? Có những tín hiệu cảm giác nào đó đang đứng ở vị trí trung tâm trong sự chú ý của bạn. Và có một số khác thì ở phía sau đang rình rập. Ví dụ, bây giờ bạn không chú ý đến một số tín hiệu cảm giác nào đó, nhưng ngay khi tôi nói chúng, chỉ ra chúng, bạn sẽ chú ý đến như áp lực của ghế chống lưng và chân của bạn. Bây giờ chúng đang ở vị trí nổi bật trong sự chú ý của bạn vì tôi vừa mới đề cập đến chúng. Và điều tôi muốn nói là không có bản chất nào về bạn. Bạn là những gì bạn làm. Trong khoảnh khắc đó, bạn là những gì bạn làm. Và bạn có thể thay đổi những gì bạn làm. Bạn có thể thay đổi những gì bạn trải nghiệm, hậu quả của trải nghiệm sống, đó chính là hậu quả của những gì bạn làm, bằng những gì bạn nhớ và ngữ cảnh là gì. Vì vậy, đó là câu trả lời của tôi. Nếu bạn luôn nhớ điều đó, bạn sẽ không bao giờ bị gắn bó. Bạn sẽ không bao giờ khao khát hay cố gắng, bạn biết đấy, để có những thứ và tất cả những thứ nhân tạo này, mà hỗ trợ cho ảo tưởng rằng bạn là và bạn có một bản chất nào đó mà bạn, mà bạn biết, là không thay đổi giữa các tình huống. Vâng, chúng ta, tôi, chúng ta rất nhanh chóng sa vào cái bẫy suy nghĩ rằng chúng ta là những gì chúng ta đã làm. Và tôi thích hơn, tôi là những gì tôi làm, bởi vì điều đó có nghĩa là tôi có quyền quyết định khác trong khoảnh khắc, không phụ thuộc vào những gì tôi đã làm trong quá khứ. Nhưng đó là cái bẫy mà chúng ta sa vào. Trong 10 phút nữa, tôi cá là tôi sẽ xuống dưới và tôi sẽ lại rơi vào cái bẫy suy nghĩ rằng tôi là Stephen Bartlett, người đã làm điều này trong 32 năm hoặc đã làm, bạn biết đấy. Lisa, cảm ơn bạn. Cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều vì mọi điều bạn đã làm. Tôi, tôi cảm thấy bạn đã thay đổi cách suy nghĩ của tôi một cách thật sâu sắc. Và đó là điều khá khó vì tôi ngồi đây khá nhiều. Vì vậy, tôi có rất nhiều cuộc trò chuyện về não và về rất nhiều nghiên cứu mới mà đã ra đời, v.v. Nhưng bạn đã hoàn toàn làm tôi thay đổi suy nghĩ và khiến tôi nghĩ theo một cách hoàn toàn khác, điều mà tôi thực sự biết ơn. Vì vậy, cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều vì đó là một món quà. Và đó không phải là một món quà mà tôi luôn nhận được khi làm công việc này, nhưng thực sự là một món quà. Và đó là một món quà mà tôi nghĩ sẽ giúp tôi sống một cuộc sống tốt hơn cuối cùng. Nhưng hy vọng cũng để cho tất cả mọi người đang lắng nghe và cảm ơn bạn đã bước vào phần giao tiếp công cộng trong cuộc sống của bạn vì tôi đã định nói rằng đó là ai đó biết những gì bạn biết và đã thực hiện công việc mà bạn đã làm. Nó vô cùng quan trọng đến mức mà tôi gần như coi đó là một trách nhiệm rất quan trọng bởi vì có những người như chúng tôi ngồi trên những podcast này, những người không ở trong phòng thí nghiệm, mà nhận thông tin từ mạng xã hội, TikTok, hoặc bất kỳ ai đó nói điều gì đó. Và điều đó thật sự, thật sự quan trọng rằng những người như bạn bước ra nhiều hơn và chia sẻ những gì bạn biết. Và cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều vì đã viết những cuốn sách này vì chúng thật sự tuyệt vời. Và cũng giống như bạn đã thay đổi suy nghĩ của tôi hôm nay, tôi nghĩ những cuốn sách này sẽ thay đổi cuộc sống của rất nhiều người. Tôi rất khuyên cuốn sách này, “Cảm xúc được hình thành như thế nào”. Tôi sẽ liên kết nó bên dưới, “Cuộc sống bí mật của não bộ”. Và cũng cho một cái gì đó ngắn gọn hơn nhưng cũng dễ tiếp cận, cuốn sách này đây, “Bảy bài học rưỡi về não”. Cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều. Cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều. Tôi sẽ chia sẻ với bạn một bí mật nhỏ. Bạn có thể nghĩ rằng tôi và đội ngũ của tôi hơi kỳ quặc, nhưng tôi vẫn nhớ đến bây giờ khi Jemima từ đội của tôi đăng trên Slack rằng cô ấy đã thay đổi hương thơm trong studio này. Và ngay sau khi cô ấy đăng, toàn bộ văn phòng đã vỗ tay trong kênh Slack của chúng tôi. Và điều này có thể nghe điên rồ, nhưng tại Diary of a CEO, đây là loại cải tiến 1% mà chúng tôi thực hiện trong chương trình của mình. Và đó là lý do tại sao chương trình lại trở thành như vậy. Bằng cách hiểu sức mạnh của việc cộng dồn 1%, bạn có thể hoàn toàn thay đổi kết quả trong cuộc sống của mình. Đó không phải là về sự chuyển mình đột ngột hay thành công nhanh chóng. Đó là về những hành động nhỏ, liên tục có sự thay đổi lâu dài trong kết quả của bạn. Vì vậy, hai năm trước, chúng tôi đã bắt đầu quá trình tạo ra cuốn nhật ký tuyệt đẹp này, và nó thật sự tuyệt đẹp. Bên trong có rất nhiều hình ảnh, rất nhiều cảm hứng và động lực nữa. Một số yếu tố tương tác. Và mục đích của cuốn nhật ký này là giúp bạn xác định, giữ sự tập trung vào, phát triển tính liên tục với 1% mà cuối cùng sẽ thay đổi cuộc sống của bạn. Vì vậy, nếu bạn muốn một cái cho bản thân hoặc cho một người bạn hay một đồng nghiệp hoặc cho đội ngũ của bạn, thì hãy đến thediary.com ngay bây giờ. Tôi sẽ liên kết nó bên dưới. Điều này luôn khiến tôi cảm thấy hơi ngạc nhiên. 53% trong số các bạn nghe chương trình này thường xuyên vẫn chưa đăng ký kênh. Vậy tôi có thể nhờ bạn một điều không? Nếu bạn thích chương trình và thích những gì chúng tôi làm ở đây và muốn hỗ trợ chúng tôi, cách đơn giản và miễn phí mà bạn có thể làm là nhấn nút đăng ký. Và cam kết của tôi với bạn là nếu bạn làm như vậy, thì tôi và đội ngũ của tôi sẽ làm mọi thứ trong khả năng của mình để đảm bảo rằng chương trình này sẽ tốt hơn cho bạn mỗi tuần.
    Chúng tôi sẽ lắng nghe ý kiến của bạn, chúng tôi sẽ tìm những khách mời mà bạn muốn tôi nói chuyện, và chúng tôi sẽ tiếp tục làm những gì chúng tôi đang làm.
    Cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều.
    有一些實驗訓練人們去體驗焦慮,但以決心的方式去體驗,因為同樣的生理狀態可以被完全不同地體驗。 他們所發現的是,一開始真的很困難,但只要不斷練習,最終就會變得非常自動化。 所以,首先要理解的是…… 凱薩琳·李莎·費爾德曼·巴雷特博士是一位世界領先的神經科學家。 她的開創性研究揭示了情緒,如焦慮和創傷,是由大腦構建的。我們有能力去控制它們。 故事是你天生就擁有這些內在的情緒回路,但你並不是生來就能控制它們。 這是錯誤的。 其實發生的事情是你的大腦不是在反應,而是在預測。 你所採取的每一個行動、你擁有的每一種情感都是記憶中過去的結合,還包括任何創傷。 因此,你對此並沒有主觀能動感,因為這一切發生得非常自動化,快得比你眨眼還要快。 這怎樣改變了我們應該如何對待創傷? 有時在生活中,你對改變某些事情負有責任,並不是因為你應該被指責,而是因為你是唯一能這樣做的人。 我是說,我有一個女兒,她經歷了臨床抑鬱,學校成績不及格,睡不著覺,她非常痛苦。 一開始她非常抵抗,但後來她決定她想要得到幫助。 那麼她康復了嗎? 是的,她康復了。 所以如果你想改變自己是誰,改變你感受到的東西,理解這些基本的運作原則是生活有意義的關鍵。 那麼,改變的第一步是什麼? 在我們回到這一集之前,請給我30秒的時間。 我想說兩件事情。 第一件事就是非常感謝你每週收聽和關注這個節目。 這對我們所有人來說意義重大,這確實是我們從未想過的夢想,並且無法想象會到達這個地方。 但第二,這是一個我們覺得才剛剛開始的夢想。 如果你喜歡我們在這裡所做的事情,請加入那24%的定期收聽這個播客的人,並在這個應用程序上關注我們。 這裡有一個我給你的承諾。 我會盡我所能使這個節目變得盡可能好,無論是現在還是未來。 我們將提供你想讓我對話的嘉賓,並且我們將繼續進行你喜歡的所有事情。 謝謝你,真的非常感謝你。 回到節目中。 凱薩琳·李莎·費爾德曼·巴雷特博士,你的職業旅程真是非凡而曲折。 這幾乎很難用特定的使命或特定的旅程摘要來概括你所經歷的曲折和轉折。 但如果我現在問你,對於你目前正在做的工作,你的使命是什麼,你能位置嗎? 我的目標作為一名科學傳播者,就是試圖將非常複雜的科學以人們可以使用的方式呈現。 你知道,也許他們用它來在晚宴上娛樂朋友。 也許他們用它來幫助他們的孩子,當他們在與抑鬱作鬥爭時。 這在我個人的情況下,確實是我必須面對的事情。 或者也許他們用它來改善他們的工作場所,或提高他們工作同事的生產力,或者其他什麼。 關鍵是,這最終就是科學的用處。 它是為了,嗯,更好地生活。 而沒有博士學位的普通人也能做到這一點,只要他們擁有正確的信息。 我可能正在試圖理解,像我們這樣的大腦,與我們這樣的身體相連,浸泡在這樣的世界中,是怎樣產生思想的。 這是什麼? 什麼在發生,以至於你能擁有思想、感受、記憶和行動? 而來自其他國家、其他文化的人,卻也有著與你截然不同的心理生活。 怎樣的情況下,相同種類的大腦設計與相同一般類型的身體設計,可以產生如此不同類型的心智,當這些大腦在某種意義上,完成了在文化和物理上下文中自我連接的過程,這些上下文之間又是如此迥異? 當你剛才談到你追求理解我們的大腦是如何創造心智以及我們所擁有的現實時,如果我能夠理解所有這些,就像許多讀過你關於大腦和情感的書的人所能理解的一樣,那麼這對我的日常生活有什麼意義? 哦,我的天! 這給了你在生活中擁有更多主導權的機會。 這意味著什麼? 這意味著你擁有更多的選擇權。 這意味著你擁有更多的控制權。 這意味著你可以設計自己的生活。 嗯,你無法控制發生在你身上的一切。 你無法控制每一個感受的瞬間,但你擁有的控制權比你想像中要多。 每個人對自己所感受的和所做的事情的控制權,都比他們自己想的要多。 這種控制權不會像我們期望的那樣。 它比我們希望的要難以駕馭。 有些人比其他人有更多的控制機會,但每個人都有機會獲得更多控制權。 當然,反過來,也意味著對他們生活方式的更多責任。 我認為這是一件非常好的事情。 當世界事件在你周圍旋轉,而你感覺自己只是在漂浮時,我認為這是一件非常好的事情。 即使在這種瘋狂之中,也有機會讓你成為自己經驗和生活的更多建築師。 我認為這讓很多人感到樂觀和有幫助。 是的,因為生活有時會讓我們感到像是木偶,只是在對周圍發生的事情做出反應。 如果外面下雨,那我們就會感到難過。如果有人給我們發消息,我們就會感到煩惱。
    我們只是一種反應性的生物,對周圍發生的事情做出反應。
    但你告訴我,如果我對大腦及其運作和情感有更深入的理解,那麼我可以重新掌控一些控制權,過上更有意圖的生活。
    是的,正是如此。
    對我而言,我的職業生涯一開始是在研究情感的本質,但實際上這成為了一個了解大腦如何運作的手電筒。
    我們為什麼需要有大腦?
    這是一個非常昂貴的器官。
    在你耳朵之間那塊肉是你擁有的最昂貴的器官,從代謝的角度來看也是最昂貴的。
    那它有什麼用呢?
    它的最基本功能是什麼?
    它與身體的關係是如何的?
    我想在你的節目中,曾經有不少人談論過大腦與身體之間的某種關係。
    但我認為科學家們在很長一段時間內忘記或忽視了大腦是與身體相連的事實,對吧?
    因為我們並不會感受到所有的劇情。就像現在在你我以及所有聽眾身上,我們都在經歷著某種戲劇。
    這實在是相當激烈,裡面有很多事情在發生,而我們卻希望沒有一個人意識到這一點。
    如果你意識到了,那我真的很抱歉。這可能意味著你今天感覺不太好。
    但我們大多數時間不意識到自己身體內部發生的事情,這是件好事,因為如果我們真有意識到,我們將再也無法關注自己皮膚外的任何事情,對吧?
    但問題在於,在科學中,這通常是從你自己的主觀經驗開始,然後試圖對其進行形式化。
    而且,如果你看看任何科學,物理學也是如此。
    你必須回溯幾百年,甚至更久才能看到這一點。
    因此,事實證明,你所經歷的世界屬性以及世界的方式,其實深深根植於你大腦對身體的調節中。
    所以,我想我最初是從情感開始的,但它實際上變成了一個更大的項目,試圖理解,大腦究竟是什麼?
    它的結構是怎樣的?
    它是如何演變的?
    它是怎麼運作的?
    它的最基本功能是什麼?
    思想、情感、行動和知覺,它們在這一功能中扮演什麼角色?
    所以這有點翻轉了問題,對吧?
    大多數人會從什麼是情感開始?
    什麼是思想?
    什麼是記憶?
    他們為其定義,然後再尋找它在大腦或身體中的物理依據。
    這是一種相當破產的觀點。
    我指的是,經過了一百年,並沒有真正好的答案。
    所以我們將其翻轉過來,然後說,好吧,既然我們有這種大腦,那麼它能做什麼?
    它具體做些什麼?
    在正常功能下,它是如何產生心智事件的?
    在我們的文化中,我們的思想、情感、知覺和行動,而在其他文化中,有不同的特徵組合,對吧?
    對我們而言,思想、思想和情感是極為不同的。
    我們體驗到它們是完全分開的。
    事實上,自從柏拉圖開始以來,我們就有這種敘事。你知道,心靈或大腦就像是你的思想和情感之間的戰場,對吧?
    為了控制自己的行動,若你的思想獲勝,你就是一個理性生物、健康的生物、道德的生物。
    如果你的本能和情感獲勝,你知道的,你的內心野獸,那麼你就是不負責任的、幼稚的、不道德的、精神不健康的。
    這就是我們所處的敘事。
    在一些文化中,思想和情感並不是分開的。
    它們其實不是同時存在,而是合而為一。
    它們是同一精神事件的特徵。
    在某些文化中,你的身體和心靈並不是分開的。
    對於物理感覺和精神感受並沒有獨立的經驗。
    它們實際上是一回事。
    所以我們的心靈並不是唯一的人性,這只是其中一種人性,還有其他的人性。
    我們必須弄清楚,對於神經典型的人類來說,普遍的大腦計畫和普遍的身體計畫是如何在文化背景的影響下產生如此大的變異。
    在關於神經科學和理解大腦的過程中,與我們創造現實的方式,有沒有一個時刻讓你恍然大悟,意識到我們大多數人可能是錯的?
    或者說對於我們的大腦如何創造現實,有一個潛在的誤解?
    我會說,嗯,是的,當然有這樣一個恍然大悟的時刻,但那是一個漫長而緩慢的燒灼過程。
    當我還是研究生的時候,我並沒有研究情感。
    我在研究自我。
    你如何看待自己?
    你的自尊心如何?
    你如何概念化自己?
    這在心理學中是一個重要的主題。
    而我則在測量情感作為一個結果變數,但測量並不奏效。
    我想,我需要能夠直觀、客觀地測量當某人憤怒或悲傷或快樂時的情況。
    我不想要去詢問他們,因為他們可能是錯的。
    而在這個提問的措辭中,有一種預假設,對吧,即存在一種所謂的客觀狀態叫做憤怒,
    一般來說,大多數的憤怒情境在不同的人和上下文中看起來是相似的。
    而我很快意識到,沒有人能夠發現任何本質,對吧?
    所以最近,在過去幾年中,研究人員進行了一個元分析,這是一個對幾百個實驗的統計概要。
    而他們發現的事情是,這僅僅是在城市文化中,對吧?
    我們甚至沒有談論偏遠文化。
    在城市文化中,當某個人憤怒的時候,人們大約有35%的時間會皺起眉頭。
    皺眉就像是…
    像皺眉,像是…
    好的,你知道的,你皺起眉頭,這是皺眉的樣子,對吧?
    好的。
    但這意味著,大約65%的時間當人們生氣時,他們的面部表情還意味著其他某些事情。
    而一半的時間當人們皺眉時,他們並不是生氣,而是感受到其他情緒。
    他們可能是在非常專注。
    你可能剛告訴了他們一個糟糕的笑話。
    他們可能有胃氣脹的問題。
    你知道,皺眉並不僅僅是憤怒的表情。
    在某些情境下它是憤怒的表情。
    在其他情境中,它也是其他情感的表現。
    所以這意味著,實際上並沒有一種特定於憤怒的可靠情感表達。
    這對所有研究過的情感都是如此。
    無論你有多明確地感受到憤怒或悲傷,或選擇其他任何一種情感。
    你的心率可以上升,可以下降,也可以保持不變。
    你的血壓可以上升,可以下降,也可以保持不變。
    身體內正在發生的生理反應與你大腦為特定行為所做的準備有關。
    那麼我們就從這裡開始吧。
    預測性大腦這個概念我幾乎只從你那裡知道。
    我以前從未聽說過。
    當我們說到預測性大腦時,這意味著什麼?
    而這又不意味著什麼?
    所以當你生活在日常生活中。
    對。
    就像現在這樣。
    就像現在這樣。
    所以現在,我在猜我正在對你說話,而你在感知我所說的話,然後你做出反應。
    這對你來說是這樣的感覺,對吧?
    是的。
    好的。
    對我來說也是如此。
    所以我們感知,然後我們反應。
    這是大多數人如何在世界上經歷自己的方式。
    但實際上,在背後發生的事情並不是這樣。
    真正發生的事情是,大腦,您的大腦並不是在反應,而是在預測。
    這意味著,如果現在我們停止時間,將時間凍結,你的大腦會處於一種狀態,並且會記住和這種狀態相似的過去經驗,作為預測接下來該做什麼的方法。
    像是字面上的下一個瞬間。
    你的眼睛應該移動嗎?
    你的心率應該上升嗎?
    你的呼吸應該改變嗎?
    你的血管應該擴張還是收縮?
    你應該準備站起來嗎?
    對吧?
    所以在背後,你的大腦正在預測它應該進行哪些動作。
    因此,根據這些動作,你將會經歷到的事情。
    所以你是先行動,然後再感知。
    你不會感知然後再反應。
    你預測行動,然後才感知。
    所以請給我一個例子,讓我明白一下我的大腦是如何預測然後採取行動的。
    好的。
    所以現在你我正在交談,我在說話而你在聆聽。
    而你大腦中所真的發生的事情是,基於數以億計的聽語言的重複,你的大腦在預測,字面上預測每一個我將要說出的單詞。
    是的。
    好的。
    如果我不是說“嘴”,而是說我身體其他某個開口的詞語,你會多麼驚訝?
    那會很驚訝,因為你的大腦是在預測這一點。
    你的大腦一直在預測,並且在預測不正確的時候進行修正。
    你知道,我有一個視頻,通常在我對科學家或普通人進行演講時會播放。
    我在講話,這會創造出一種情境,讓他們可以預測一些東西,並且他們能夠感受到這種預測不僅僅是一種抽象的思維。
    思維是你的大腦實際上正在改變自身感官神經元的放電方式,以預測未來到來的感覺。
    因此,在你感知這些感覺之前,你開始感受到這些感覺。
    在世界給予你那些信號之前,你開始獲得這種經驗。
    我看過,我想是在你的書中,但可能在其他地方,關於渴望的例子。
    所以當你喝水的時候,假設你非常口渴,然後你喝了一大杯水,何時你停止口渴?
    幾乎是馬上。
    但實際上,水需要大約20分鐘才能被吸收到血液中,並進入大腦告訴大腦你不再需要液體。
    因為在數百萬次的機會中,你已經學會了現在某些動作和感官信號將導致那種心理狀態。
    或者這裡有另一個例子。
    所以現在,請把眼睛集中在我身上。
    你正好盯著我。
    在你的心靈視野中,我希望你想像一個麥金塔蘋果,並不是一台電腦,而是一個真正的水果。
    好的。
    你能做到嗎?
    是的。
    你能看到它嗎?
    是的。
    它是什麼顏色?
    綠色。
    好的。
    它有紅色嗎?
    沒有。
    好的。
    所以它是一個格蘭尼史密斯蘋果。
    是的。
    好的。
    它的味道怎麼樣?
    想像一下,想像一下抓住它。
    是的。
    咬下去,聽到蘋果的脆響。
    它的味道怎麼樣?
    它是甜的。
    可能有點酸?
    是的,是的。
    是多汁的嗎?
    非常多汁。
    是的。
    所以如果我此刻對你的大腦進行成像,我會看到與你的視覺皮層中的神經活動相關的信號發生變化,即使你面前沒有蘋果。
    我會看到你的聽覺皮層中的活動變化,即使你並沒有真正聽到脆響。
    我口水直流。
    而你的嘴也在流口水。
    事實上,每次你坐下來吃飯時,你的大腦都會指導唾液腺分泌更多唾液,以準備讓你進食和消化食物。
    所以這通常在你甚至坐下吃飯之前就會發生。
    這一切都是預測。
    這一切都是你的大腦在為即將到來的事情做準備。
    因為預測和修正是一種更有效的運行神經系統,實際上運行任何系統的方式,而不是對世界的反應。
    這裡還有另一個例子。
    你喝咖啡嗎?
    是的。
    好的。
    你每天在同一時間喝咖啡嗎?
    通常會的,對。
    好吧。
    那你是不是這種人,如果錯過那個時間喝咖啡,就會頭痛?
    我曾經有過這樣的經歷。
    是的。
    我之前是一個喝很多咖啡的人。
    我喜歡咖啡,但現在不再喝了。
    但我真的很愛它。
    我每天都在同一時間喝咖啡。
    如果我不喝,在那個時間點,我會感到劇烈的頭痛。
    原因是,這其實對於你所服用的每一種藥物都是正確的,任何影響你生理的東西,如果你定期攝取,你的腦袋就會預期這種情況。
    這意味著,咖啡中的化學物質會收縮你全身的血管。
    但在大腦中,大腦會試圖保持血流穩定且均勻。
    如果你每天早上8點都在喝一種會收縮你血管的飲料,那麼在大約7點55分,我不知道確切的時間,但在8點之前的一小會兒,你的腦袋會擴張血管。
    為了準備那種收縮,以保持血流的穩定。
    如果你不飲用那種物質,那麼就會出現劇烈擴張,導致非常非常嚴重的頭痛。
    我當時在想,當你在講的時候,我以為你會說到有時我設鬧鐘時,似乎會在鬧鐘響前五分鐘醒來。
    是的,當然。
    這是一個例子。
    還有另一個例子。
    鍛煉。
    如果你想更好地打網球,如果你想跑得更快,你該怎麼做?
    訓練。
    訓練。
    你不斷重複同樣的事情。
    然後你變得更好、更快。
    而且你消耗的卡路里會更少。
    你的效率會提高。
    為什麼?
    因為你的大腦在做出很好的預測。
    這就是肌肉記憶的意義。
    它並不是字面意義上的肌肉裡的記憶。
    而是大腦中的記憶。
    你的大腦控制著你的肌肉。
    所以如果你不斷重複同一組動作,你會變得非常高效,因為你的大腦能夠做出更好的預測。
    如果你是一個因為想變得更健康或想減肥而鍛煉的人,那麼你不想不斷重複同樣的運動,因為你會消耗更少的卡路里,因為你的效率提高了。
    這是目標,對吧?
    如果每30秒就有人呼喊不同的動作,而你無法預測它們,那麼你的大腦會做出預測。
    這將是錯誤的。
    你必須調整。
    所以你最終會燃燒更多的卡路里,並且使自己失去平衡,我們稱之為動態平衡(allostasis)。
    因此,你的身體會失去調節能力,然後你的大腦必須努力重新進行調整。
    這是一種不同的鍛煉。
    這兩種不同的鍛煉完全基於這樣一個事實,即有時你想能夠更好地預測。
    有時你想能夠打亂自己並快速恢復狀態,對嗎?
    所以基本上你在學習如何接收預測誤差,調整自己的信號。
    這對於創傷和其他心理健康疾病(如抑鬱症、焦慮等)有什麼啟示呢?
    這是否意味著我的預測出了錯?
    我這麼說是因為預測依賴於過去發生的事件並形成模式,就像一個模式識別系統。
    所以如果我成長的過程中出現了某些模式,但現在的情況卻不同。
    比如說,如果我在成長過程中,每次都被一個男人進入房間後打了。
    那麼現在,當一個男人走進房間,而我已經35歲時,我的大腦仍然會發出同樣的預測。
    因此,我對男人產生了恐懼,比如說。
    這是否在某種程度上解釋了兒童創傷,以及為什麼這麼難以擺脫,為什麼我們長大後有時會生活得如此不正常?
    我會說作為一個一般原則,是的。
    有很多細節,對吧?
    但是是的,的確如此。
    因此,創傷不是發生在你生活中的某種事情。
    你所經歷的一切都是記憶中的過去和感官中的現在的結合。
    所以可能會發生不利事件。
    你正在經歷地震。
    你周圍的某人去世了。
    某些不好的事情發生在你身上。
    有人以某種方式傷害了你。
    可能會有不利事件而對你來說卻不是創傷。
    因為你並沒有利用過去的經驗來將其理解為創傷。
    另一方面,對於某些人來說,某些事情可能是日常經歷,但對你而言,它卻與一組非常創傷的記憶相連接。
    這些事件對你來說非常創傷。
    所以對你而言,這就是創傷。
    因此,創傷並不是世界上客觀存在的東西。
    它也不僅僅存在於你頭腦中。
    創傷是過去發生的事情與當下發生的事情之間關係的屬性。
    這裡有一個例子。
    有一位在埃默里大學工作的 antropologist。
    她研究很多不同文化的人。
    她研究很多不同文化中的創傷。
    她寫過一個女孩的個案研究,名叫瑪麗亞(Maria),她是一位年輕的青少女。
    她生活的文化中,男性對女性和女孩的身體接觸是相對正常的。
    在我們的文化中,我們會稱之為身體虐待。
    但在她的文化中,這只是男性的常規行為。
    她並沒有經歷到創傷,所以她的繼父會拍打她。
    她不喜歡,但她沒有顯示出任何創傷的跡象。
    她理解這一切的方式是:男人就是混蛋。
    這是非常明確的,不是關於我的,而是關於他們的。
    這雖然不愉快,但她的睡眠還不錯。
    她的學校成績也還可以。
    她有朋友。
    她完全沒有任何創傷的跡象。
    然後她看了奧普拉的節目。
    她聽到那些女性談論她們曾經遭受來自男朋友、父親或丈夫的身體虐待。
    她認識到這些女性的描述和她自己身體狀況中的相似之處。
    她也觀察到她們經歷著創傷的徵兆。
    突然之間,她開始難以入睡。
    她的成績下降。
    她專心不起來。
    她變得社交孤僻。
    她理解事物的方式,就像如果你把身體動作視為行動,她對這些行動有了不同的意義。
    而她經歷了之前未曾經歷的創傷。
    現在,如果你是一個相信有客觀世界存在的人,你知道,那就是因果關係。
    是的。
    實際上,她內心深處確實存在某種潛在的創傷,她之前未曾經歷過,但後來被觸發了。
    然後你可以講述這樣的完整故事,很多人確實會這樣講,但這不是最好的科學證據所顯示的情況。
    實際上發生的事情是,身體動作是一樣的。
    這些動作的心理體驗是不同的,因為經驗是感官當下、身體當下和記憶過去的結合。
    而你需要兩者才能擁有特定類型的經驗。
    因此,描述瑪莉亞的軌跡所發生的事情的方式是,她經歷了某種不幸的身體生活的面向。
    然後這一切變成了關於她自己的事。
    這不再是說某人在做壞事,而是這個人因為她是誰而對她做壞事。
    她也被展示了應該如何應對這一切,透過觀看奧普拉的節目和其他人以某種方式做出反應。
    對。
    因此,這成了關於她這個人的事,而不僅僅是,知道,她的繼父是個混蛋。
    如果你這樣想,我們在這個文化中所做的事情是,當人們因創傷而去治療時,我們試圖實際上逆轉那種敘事。
    因此,我們試圖教導人們,當創傷發生於他們身上時,這不是……而我想要非常清楚我所說的,對吧?
    我並不是在說人們遭受創傷是他們的錯。
    我在任何方面都不在說他們對發生在他們身上的事情有責任。
    但是,有時在生活中,你有責任改變某些事情,這不是因為你應該承擔責任,而是因為你是唯一能做到的人。
    責任落在你身上。
    因此,在這個文化中,我們試圖教導那些經歷過創傷的人,他們可以以某種方式重新體驗過去發生在他們身上的身體事件。
    而當他們這樣做時,他們不再感到創傷。
    我的思想因為多種不同的原因有點震驚,因為認為我們賦予了過去事件的意義,這是一個真正的範式轉變。
    而有時這種意義來自於觀看其他人賦予的意義。
    而我們繼承了這種意義……
    哦,是的。
    這被稱為文化繼承。
    這就像文化的傳染。
    所以事實證明,有一種古老的進化理論,對吧?
    這被稱為現代合成,繼承確實是基因。
    你繼承了,不管你繼承了什麼,你都是通過你的基因繼承的,然後自然選擇,知道,選擇某些基因模式,而不是其他的。
    這就是跨世代的繼承方式。
    大多數進化生物學家現在不再認同這種觀點,因為在大多數情況下,還有很多種繼承的方式。
    而我們所認為的很多繼承事實上更像是所謂的表觀遺傳學,這意味著它不太涉及DNA。
    我會說,我喜歡這樣說,我們擁有的那種自然需要一種養育。
    我們擁有的基因需要經驗,才能將任何東西接入我們的大腦。
    而我們的大多數特徵都是這樣工作的。
    非常少的特徵僅僅依賴基因。
    在神經典型的大腦中發生的事情是,你出生時大腦還不完整,對吧?
    成人的大腦被認為是與其世界相連的。
    那個世界包括你自己的身體。
    但嬰兒的大腦不是一個迷你成人大腦。
    它是一個等待來自世界和自身身體的連接指令的大腦。
    因此,你的大腦被設計為透過與你眼睛的準確距離進行視覺。如果以某種方式,知道,我們可以將你的大腦神奇地移植到其他人的顱骨中,你將無法透過那個顱骨看東西。
    你將無法透過那些眼睛看東西,因為它們不在正確的位置。
    你用耳朵聽,你的聽覺來自由你耳朵形狀所形成的信號。
    因此,你的大腦是為這些耳朵而設計的,而不是任何耳朵,這些耳朵。
    類似地,作為一個嬰兒,你被教導這些身體信號的意義。
    你被教導如何理解這些事物。
    這被稱為文化繼承。
    很多我們認為是硬接入大腦的東西,其實是跨世代的文化繼承。
    這就是人們如何在特定環境中生存。
    你知道,就像在19世紀和20世紀,當探險者去南極或這裡或那裡,很快就會死去。
    因為因紐特人在那裡生活。他們過得很好。
    好吧,因為他們有文化繼承的知識。
    我們總是在互相傳遞知識。
    而這些知識成為我們自己預測的素材。
    因此,你的預測不僅來自於你的個人經驗。
    它們還來自於你觀看電視、和客人交談、閱讀書籍、觀看電影。
    此外,您的大腦,和大多數人類的大腦一樣,能做一些非常奇妙的事情,那就是您可以將過去的經驗片段重新組合以全新的方式,從而利用過去來體驗一些您前所未有的新事物。您剛才提到過,治療師試圖讓您以不同的方式看待過去。但是我確實認為,在我們的文化、社會和社交媒體上有一種潛在的信念,那就是如果發生在您身上的事情,幾乎就像這種佛洛伊德的觀點,如果這發生在您身上,那就是您所成為的樣子。我在聖誕節時閱讀了一本書《勇氣去不被喜歡》,這本書在某種重要的方式上深刻地改變了我對此的看法,因為它幫助我理解。我認為這本書基本上說的是,發生在我們身上的事情並不決定我們成為誰,而是我們如何使用這些發生的事情並賦予其意義,這最終決定了我們的行為。非常有趣的是,這意味著我對自己的許多信念,即我所說的我是誰、我的身份,因此我每天的行為方式,無論是生產性的或非生產性的,實際上只是我為過去所賦予的意義所做的選擇。這有意義嗎?完全有意義。這真的是一個非常深刻的議題,我不知道現在聽的人是否理解我所說的,但在我們談話的一開始,我們說過,您在生活中會覺得自己是一個木偶,並被您所經歷的事情、您的身份所控制。但實際上,您的身份只是您為過去賦予意義的構建,目的是為了現在的需求,就像書中所說的那樣。是的,我會略微不同地表達這一點,但信息是一樣的。我認為,在當下感官中,對嗎,存在著視覺、聲音、氣味,您體內也有一些事情發生,對吧?這些信號傳遞到您的大腦。它們本身沒有固有的心理意義。它們沒有固有的情感意義。它們沒有固有的心理意義。賦予它們意義的是您過去的記憶。您是創造者,您是意義的製造者。意義不是一組像字典定義那樣的特徵。因此,這個杯子的意義不是它是由金屬製成的,我們確實可以談論這些特徵,但在此刻,這個杯子的意義在於我如何使用它。所以它可以是喝水的器具。它可以是一種武器。它可以是,您知道的,花瓶。它可以是一個量杯。這個容器的意義在於我在此刻如何使用它。這就是它的意義。因此,這個容器的意義不在於容器本身,也不僅僅在我的腦海中。意義存在於這個物體的特徵與我大腦中創造我的行為的信號之間的關係中。事實上,即便這是一個實體物體,這種堅實性並不在於物體中。是因為我擁有某種類型的身體,擁有特定的特徵,使我感受到這是堅實的。堅實性不在我身上,也不在物體中。它存在於兩者之間的關係中。這意味著每一個您經歷的事情部分是您自己創造的。您對此沒有一種主體性的感覺,因為這發生得非常自動。在我們談話的過程中,它正以比您眨眼更快的速度發生。但它仍然在發生。這就意味著,即使您沒有主體性的感覺,您部分上仍然在控制,因此對正在產生的意義負有責任。當我在我們談話的開始時提到我的目標是作為一名科學傳播者,嘗試向人們解釋他們對自己生活有更多的控制權。您在任何給定的時刻對自己是誰的控制遠超過您所想,這是我所指的,給他們更多的主體性。您沒有持久的身份。您就是在您的行動瞬間的自己。行動是記憶中的過去的組合,是您的大腦用來預測的材料,您的大腦是以超自動的方式進行組裝的,還有當下的感官對嗎?所以如果您想改變自己,想改變您的感受,想改變您對他人的影響,您有幾個選擇。您可以試著回到過去,改變之前發生的事情的意義,讓您能以不同的方式記住,以便將來做出不同的預測。這就是心理治療的意義。這就是凌晨兩點和您的朋友進行心靈深處對話的意義,或其他的事情。這真的很困難。並不總是那麼有效。然而,您還可以做的另一件事是,如果您意識到您現在所經歷的任何事情都成為未來預測的種子,那麼您可以有意識地為自己創造新的經驗。您可以接觸到新想法,可以接觸到與您不同的人,可以練習培養特定的經驗,就像您鍛煉任何技能一樣。任何您學到的新概念、您擁有的新經驗,在此刻如果您加以練習,它們就會成為未來自動的預測。因此,讓我來拿這個例子,嘗試將其應用到我手中的這個銀杯上。因此,心理治療是試圖回到過去,向我解釋為什麼這實際上不是我應該用來喝水的東西,它可以是其他東西。而您所說的另一種方法是,如果我現在去找一些花,把它們放進去,我正在為未來創造一個新的預測,因為我在當下創造了一種新的模式,這實際上是花瓶。
    我可以開始創造一個新模式,讓這種銀杯不僅是用來喝水的,它們也是插花的花瓶。
    沒錯。
    好吧,我可以回到過去,試著說服自己杯子不是杯子,或者我可以在當下創造一個新模式,這意味著將來我的大腦預測下次看到銀杯時,不會只想到“喝水”,而是會想到“放一些花進去”。
    對,記住,實際上思考是在行動之後發生的,對吧?
    那麼,當你下次接近一個可能有銀杯的桌子時,你的大腦會已經開始準備去拿花的行動。
    對。
    然後你會想,哦,對,我可以把這當作一個,哦,看看,有個好花瓶,對吧?
    所以在你的大腦中,是行動在先,你的大腦在控制,準備內臟的行動,我們稱之為內臟運動。
    那麼,你的心率需要改變嗎?
    你的血管需要擴張嗎?
    你需要以不同的方式呼吸嗎?
    這基本上是在預測身體的需求,並試圖在這些需求出現之前滿足它們。
    這支持了你的身體運動,對吧?
    所以如果你要走過去拿一些花,剪一下花梗等等,這些都是需要葡萄糖和氧氣的身體運動。
    因此,所有這些都必須提前準備,在行動開始前的毫秒內。
    所以,不是你所想的決定了你所感受的,而是你準備要做的事情決定了你的思想、情感,以及你所看到的聲音、氣味和感覺。
    這才是內在運作的真相。
    所以意義在於你所做的事情。
    然後作為結果,意義會成為你所感受到的、你所思考的等等。
    那麼讓我給你一些具體的例子。
    假設我害怕蜘蛛,我該如何使用你描述的第二條路徑來克服對蜘蛛的恐懼呢?
    改變預測的一個方法是,你不能僅僅靠意志力改變預測。
    我真的很怕蜜蜂。我在五歲時有過創傷經歷。我害怕蜜蜂。我對蜜蜂了解很多。我其實是一名園丁。我知道許多關於蜜蜂的進化生物學的知識。
    但當我在外面時,如果蜜蜂出現,我的第一反應就是要麼逃跑,要麼靜止不動。
    對吧?我害怕蜜蜂。
    我可以跟自己說話直到牛回家,但這毫無意義。
    對吧?所以我必須給自己注入預測誤差,這意味著我必須以改變我的行動的方式與蜜蜂互動,這將改變我的生活體驗。
    而且我不能一次性做到這一點。
    如果我去找擁有蜂箱的人,穿上防護服去工作,那是一個壓倒性的想法。
    對吧?
    所以相反,也許我不跑。也許我站著觀看。
    也許我靠近蜜蜂。
    也許我種植蜜蜂喜歡的灌木和花朵,把蜜蜂吸引到我身邊,好讓我能坐在旁邊,看看它們在嗡嗡作響,做著自己的事情。
    也許我在某個時候故意讓自己被蜇,這我真的做過。
    但,你知道,你是在給自己注入預測誤差,你的大腦正在做一組預測。
    那些預測就是一組預測。
    這意味著你的大腦並不是準備一個行動,而是在準備多個行動。
    所以你需要向你的大腦證明那些預測是錯誤的。
    是的,正是如此。
    你需要創造情況讓自己證明你的預測是錯誤的。
    如果你預測得很好,那麼你將有幾個行動計劃。
    如果你的預測不佳,假設過度概括,也許你有一百個計劃。
    比如說,如果存在極大的不確定性,你的大腦就不知道哪個行動計劃,因此可能會有很多個。
    感官信號正從你身體的感官表面進入你的大腦,來自你的視網膜,來自你的耳蝸。
    你在皮膚、體內和肌肉細胞上都有感官表面。
    這些信號都在進入你的大腦。
    它們有助於選擇哪個預測信號會被完成為行動和生活經歷。
    好吧,讓我們假設你故意將自己置於一個情況中,那裡的進入信號將不會選擇任何預測,因為那裡有太多未預測的信號。
    這是錯誤。
    在心理學中,有另一個名稱用於接受預測誤差。
    暴露療法?
    學習。
    哦,好的。
    是的,暴露療法,這是一種學習,所有的學習,所有的學習就是你接受預測誤差,即你未曾預測的信號,或是你預測的信號不存在。
    你預測了一個信號,它卻不存在。
    所以你要做的是為自己創造情況,讓你接受新奇的信號,對吧?
    這似乎是件簡單的事情。
    實際上,人們有時會尋求新奇的東西,對吧?
    但過多的新奇未必總是好事,尤其是如果你在代謝上,接受預測誤差和學習新事物在代謝上是昂貴的。
    比如說,你的大腦在三方面花費能量最多:移動身體、學習新事物以及應對持續的不確定性。
    這些都是對我們來說非常昂貴的事情。
    所以如果你在某種程度上受到代謝負擔,比如你抑鬱、焦慮障礙,或許你有心臟病、糖尿病,或是生活在慢性壓力下,你可能沒有足夠的精力去接受預測誤差。
    你將會依賴你的預測。
    你無法學習。
    你也無法更新那些預測。
    你會陷入停滯。
    你會卡在自己的腦海裡,對吧?每一個經驗,每一個行動,都是記憶中的當下、記憶中的過去、預測和感官的當下的組合。但是,感官的當下只是為了選擇你將根據哪些記憶中的過去進行行動。而有時,在大腦負荷很大的時刻,大腦會依賴自己的預測,忽視外界的事物。我剛才在你談論這種社會傳染的時候,想到了這一點,我們可以將意義應用到我們的生活和發生在我們身上的事情上,然後因此讓自己感到悲傷,因為我們看到其他人在抖音或Instagram上是如何感受的。這讓我想,你一定在某種程度上認為這個世界是瘋狂的。你一定能察覺到社會傳染的存在,突然之間每個人似乎都變得受到創傷,因為創傷幾乎變得流行,你知道的,去思考發生在你身上的事並賦予它意義,然後承受那個意義。但還有其他類型的社會傳染在社會中擴散。我是說,年輕人變得越來越焦慮,越來越沮喪。我們自我診斷出各種不同的疾病和問題。但現在你已經解釋了大腦是如何運作的。我在想,天哪,作為一個社會,我們真是瘋狂。好吧,我們活在謊言中。是的,我想,我覺得,我確實有時候會感到沮喪,但只是因為我認為我們作為動物是意義創造者。我們創造意義,我們之所以創造意義,是因為生活的本質,就像與世界中的事物互動,與彼此互動一樣。很少有意義是既定的,這意味著它們獨立於我們存在。所以我覺得令人沮喪的是有很多痛苦,而理解這些大腦的基本運作原則不會消除所有的痛苦,但它可能會改善或減少一些。但人們並不明白,他們有時會讓自己的痛苦比其實應有的來得更糟。你在“負責任”這個詞上停頓了。我想要非常清楚地說,再次重申,我不是在說人們要負責。可責性和責任並不是一回事。可責性是指你是否值得責備,對吧?我不是在說人們要為自己的痛苦負責。我是說,通過承擔更多的責任,人們可以在某程度上減少自己的痛苦。這並不是說他們一開始就造成了這個結果。所以我舉個例子。社會傳染。傳染是一個有趣的詞。它意味著你被某種東西感染,甚至是病毒。有些實驗是在15到20年前進行的,這些實驗是由謝爾頓·科恩(Sheldon Cohen)進行的,他是一位心理免疫學家,這意味著他是一名心理學家。他研究免疫學,也就是你的免疫系統與你的心理狀態之間的關係。因此,他在多個實驗中將人們隔離在酒店房間內。然後,他將相同劑量、相同濃度的病毒放進每個人的鼻子裡。然後,他控制他們的睡眠時間、飲食量。他測量他們的症狀。他在他們擤鼻涕後稱量他們的組織。我是說,他做得真的非常,非常,非常小心。在這些實驗中,大約20%到40%的人出現了呼吸道疾病的症狀。這意味著病毒是必要的,但是不充分以引起疾病。另一個必要但不充分的原因是每個人的免疫系統狀態。也就是說,你的腦部和免疫系統必須處於特定狀態,才能在這些實驗中受到病毒的感染。所以我在這裡要強調的觀點與痛苦是一樣的。以焦慮為例。我們在文化中,自動將某些信號模式賦予意義為焦慮。當有很多不確定性時,腎上腺素和一些化學物質在大腦中會增加。這通常伴隨心率上升等等。我們自動地將這種生理狀態解讀為焦慮。但是完全相同的生理狀態也可能是決心。它可能只是純粹的不確定性。再次強調,創造意義與行動有關,對吧?因此,當你經歷高亢的激勵時,即使它的確是非常不愉快,若是被理解為決心,你的行為會與像是焦慮或不確定性時有所不同。因此,這裡有一個例子。有些人會經歷考試焦慮。嚴重的考試焦慮會阻止人們完成課程或從大學畢業。那些大學畢業的人,一生的收入軌跡往往比輟學的人的多出幾十萬美元。因此,考試焦慮在長期來看,絕不僅僅是一點不適。你知道,這對你的終身賺取潛力有嚴重的影響。曾經進行過這樣的實驗,訓練人們將高亢的生理狀態視為決心,而非焦慮。這些人學會了這樣做。首先,他們像技能一樣進行練習。剛開始時,這非常困難。你需要付出很多努力去做。但你不斷地練習,最後它變得非常自動。然後發生什麼呢?他們能夠參加考試。他們能夠通過考試。他們能夠繼續上課等等。我實際上在我眼前看到了這一切。我女兒在12歲時正在測試她的空手道黑帶。她的老師是一位十級黑帶。
    這位先生,十級黑帶是你能達到的最高級別。
    這位先生只需看著一塊板子就能把它打碎。
    他是一個可怕可怕的人。
    我女兒在十二歲的時候甚至不到五英尺高。
    她是一個這麼小的女孩。
    她得跟那些身材魁梧的十五、十六、十八歲的男孩對打。
    她真的得和他們對練。
    所以,你知道,這是持續了幾天。
    她必須真的這樣做。
    我就在那兒,我是她的爸爸,我們坐在那裡。
    我們在看著她。
    然後她的師父,你知道,走到她面前,對她說,親愛的,讓你的蝴蝶整齊地飛行。
    我當時想,這真的太神奇了。
    讓你的蝴蝶整齊地飛行。
    他不是在說,冷靜點,小女孩。
    那樣的話其實是錯誤的。
    你不想冷靜下來。
    你需要那種興奮感。
    它存在是有原因的。
    雖然不舒服,但你需要它。
    他在說,利用它。
    對我來說,這是找到對那種興奮感另一種意義的完美例子。
    而那個意義就是你將要參與的行動。
    無論有多困難,無論它看起來有多不符合預期,控制權就在那裡。
    它在那里。
    不會一直存在。
    這是更難獲得的,你知道,等等。
    但它在那裡。
    這意味著你有更多的主動權。
    你有更多的控制。
    你永遠不會有你想要的那麼多控制。
    這一直會更難獲得。
    你的選擇不會一直一樣。
    但你總是可以找到更多的控制權在你所做的事情和你所經歷的事情上。
    這是過上有意義的生活的關鍵。
    你對年輕人所成長的世界有點擔憂嗎?他們在社交媒體上滑動,社交媒體告訴他們某些感覺是什麼。
    他們總是被不斷地編程。
    是的,他們是。
    讓人焦慮,讓人沮喪,讓人悲傷。
    是的,他們是。
    而且想一想,社交媒體帶來了有害的不確定性。
    你知道,在坐在面對面時,從一開始我們就有所有這些線索。
    我們有所有這些信號。
    我能看到你的臉。
    我能聽到你的聲音。
    即使所有這些信息都在,仍然會有一些不確定性,對嗎?
    我們無法完全讀懂彼此。
    身體的動作並不是一種可以被解讀的語言。
    這是一個糟糕的隱喻,對嗎?
    我們總是在猜測。
    我們總是在猜。
    而且我們使用了很多信號來進行猜測。
    但當你在社交媒體上時,你幾乎沒有信號。
    有很多模糊性。
    有很多不確定性。
    你能做的唯一事情就是用你自己的猜測來填補那種不確定性,這可能是錯的,對吧?
    所以那些上TikTok等社交媒體的人,他們自願放棄了自己的主動權,而他們卻不知道。
    你這是什麼意思?
    他們選擇被引導。
    他們選擇被影響。
    我給你一個例子。
    我聽過有關新陳代謝的播客。
    我聽過有關皮膚護理的播客。
    我聽過很多播客。
    你知道,我對人們發布的信息感到好奇。
    我大概有90%的內容會關掉—我聽到大約十分鐘,我就會關掉。
    這就是消費者的意義。
    你有選擇。
    我覺得人們他們沒有意識到,根據他們所做和不做的事情,他們在做出對腦海中保留的內容的選擇,然後這些內容會自動使用。
    洗腦。
    洗腦。
    有那麼一點,除了你是自己選擇的。
    你知道,我是有同理心的,我並不在責怪人們,但他們的情況本可以更好,你知道嗎?
    我的女兒曾經臨床抑鬱。
    那是我一生中最挫折的經歷之一,還很悲慘。
    我現在可以談論這件事而不會淚流滿面。
    這花了很長時間。
    但一開始,她非常抗拒。
    最終,你知道,她做出了想要被幫助的決定,然後我們徹底改變了她的生活。
    但是她必須做出那個決定。
    我不能強迫她這樣做。
    而我覺得現在的情況有點類似,有太多的謊言在健康產業中。
    有太多東西在TikTok和其他社交媒體上旋轉,而並不是所有的都是有用的。
    有些真的很有害。
    你介意我暫停一下這段對話嗎?
    我想談談今天的節目贊助商,Shopify。
    我一直相信,商業中最大的成本不是失敗。
    而是你浪費的時間去做出決定。
    花時間猶豫、過度思考或等待正確的時刻。
    當我20歲時創立我的第一家公司時,我沒有經驗,也沒有錢。
    我擁有的是一個想法和快速行動的意願。
    這才是最重要的區別。
    如果你一直在考慮創立自己的業務,Shopify讓整個過程變得簡單得多。
    擁有數千個可自定義的模板,你不需要編程或設計技能,只需有啟動的意願。
    Shopify連接你所有的銷售渠道,從網站到社交媒體,還處理後端的支付、運輸和稅務,這樣你就可以專注於向前推進和發展業務。
    如果你準備好了,請訪問 shopify.com/bartlett 註冊每月1英鎊的試用期。
    這是 shopify.com/bartlett。
    作為Looker的客觀者,你擁有大量的信息和知識,它指導你做出更好的決策。
    但很多人並沒有這些信息和知識。
    事實上,他們擁有的是反向信息和知識。
    當我思考一個人要改變自己生活所需的條件時,無論是你的女兒還是其他感到被困住的人,他們感覺自己被困在某種算法中或是想要逃離的生活中。根據你所知道的一切,以及你與女兒的經驗,第一步是什麼,才能夠實現那種改變?因為我真的很好奇,是什麼讓你的女兒決定要尋求幫助的。
    我認為一般的答案是小步驟。一次性完全改變一切幾乎不會成功。我不是說這根本不會成功,但這種情況非常少見。
    例如,你可以故意每週一天不上社交媒體,或是和朋友一起做其他事情。或者出去散步,將其融入到你的一天中,成為一個預定的活動。因此,另一件事是,你不能只是因為想做某件事情而去做。你必須強迫自己去做。
    例如,我曾經進行過重大背部手術,非常嚴重。我知道在手術後,我會體驗到我從未有過的感覺。就像是你去補牙時,對吧?然後,你知道那裡有一些以前不存在的東西。然後你的舌頭會不斷地去戳那顆牙,但你本不該這樣做。但你還是這樣做了,因為你的大腦正在尋找信息,尋找預測錯誤。然後最終,它調整了預測,然後忽視那些感覺,因為它們不再相關,對吧?所以這會在我身上以大規模的方式發生。我知道我在手術前制定了一個計劃,適當地給自己施加預測錯誤,以便我不會產生慢性疼痛。因為慢性疼痛就像一組不會更新的壞預測,對吧?所以你的大腦仍然相信你的身體有組織損傷,即使實際上沒有了。
    這是不是意味著疼痛常常只是一種想像的產物?不,這是一種錯誤的想法。正確的思維方式是,所有的經歷都是過去的記憶和當下的感官。疼痛是在你的腦中。視力是在你的腦中。聽覺是在你的腦中。你不是在耳朵裡聽。你是在你的腦中聽,在你的大腦中。你不是在眼睛裡看。你需要你的眼睛。你需要你的耳朵。但你不是在眼睛裡看。你是在你的大腦中看。所以,疼痛是過去的記憶和當下的感官的結合。好,是的。
    所以這兩者都有。慢性疼痛發生在你的大腦接收到身體發出的有組織損傷的信號時。這些信號被稱為疼痛感受信號。然後它將它們解釋為疼痛。而當你從一種疾病中恢復時,這對新陳代謝是有壓力的。因此並沒有太多的代謝預算用於學習。你可能處於一種情況中,你的大腦沒有更新自己,儘管組織損傷不再存在,但你仍然會感受到疼痛。就像在你心中看見一顆綠蘋果,儘管你面前沒有蘋果。這不是所有的都在你的頭腦中,以一種侮辱的方式。這只是大腦工作方式的正常結果。損傷已經消失,但損傷的信號仍然在重播。
    對,正是如此。就像幻肢一樣。耳鳴也是這樣。哦,天啊,是的。我曾經有過一段時間。
    所以,我非常努力地為自己制定了一個計劃,讓我能夠在預測錯誤上達到最佳劑量,但這意味著我必須遵守這個計劃。我認為如果你致力於改變自己的習慣,這就是改變任何習慣的方法。你改變上下文,然後你練習新的行為。
    至於我的女兒,當我們在實驗室裡思考抑鬱症時,讓我退一步說,你的大腦最重要的工作其實不是思考,也不是感受,甚至不是看東西,而是調節你的身體。它調節你的新陳代謝。基本上,這是你的大腦最重要的工作。
    你大腦最重要的工作是預測你的身體所需的需求,並在需求出現之前做好準備。我們用來比喻這種對身體預測性調控的術語是“全ostasis”。這是一個科學概念,但這個比喻是身體預算。它為你的身體運行預算。你的大腦在為你的身體運行預算。它不是在預算金錢,而是在預算鈉、葡萄糖、氧氣、鉀以及所有必要的營養素和化學物質,讓身體能夠高效運行。你知道,你有各種極低層次的過程。你可以把它們看作是維持生命的重要部分。因此,你的一部分能量預算用於這些。
    一部分能量預算用於修復和成長。當你變高時,你需要更多細胞。當你學習東西時,你必須增厚我的髓鞘和神經元。你必須增長更多接受器等等。那是成長和修復的過程。而剩下的則全部用於任何費力的事情。什麼是費力的?比如工作或去健身房。早上拖著你的身體起床也是費力的。學習新東西是費力的。應對不確定性是費力的。這一切我們稱之為壓力。壓力其實就是你的大腦預測會有大量的代謝支出,因為有某種努力的參與,對吧?某種有動力的努力。
    所以這三件事構成了你的能量預算。而真正重要的一點是,作為一個生物體,你每天能產生的能量是固定的。這指的是 ATP,就像這些小化學物質、這些小蛋白質一樣,你的細胞依賴它們作為從葡萄糖和其他物質(如脂肪)中獲得的實際能量。這就是說,沒有辦法增加它的產出。好吧,你是在一個範圍內。不過,這個範圍是有限的,因為你是人類生物體。你必須完成這三件事情,這些基本功能:生長與修復,以及其他一切。如果你有很多心理社會壓力,或者你有某種疾病耗費了你大部分的預算,那麼你所剩的預算就不夠用於其他需要做的事情了。因此,你的大腦試圖做的是削減開支。如果你查看抑鬱症的症狀,它們與削減開支有關。痛苦、疲勞、注意力集中困難、缺乏對環境的敏感度。這些都是代謝支出減少的指標。而且,抑鬱症還有與成本增加有關的症狀,比如 70% 的抑鬱症患者有炎症問題。因此,他們有增強的炎症、系統性炎症,而你的免疫系統是一個非常昂貴的系統。如果你有持續的系統性炎症,那就像是對你的預算施加了持續的稅賦。也就是說,事情的花費超出必需的水平。而且,還有一些非常有趣的研究。我作為科學家覺得這些研究有趣,作為個人則覺得有些可怕。不過,如果你在進餐後兩小時內遇到壓力,社交壓力,這就像你比實際攝入的多吃了 104 卡路里。因此,你的代謝效率非常低,這就好像你多吃了 104 卡路里。即使是好的脂肪,也會像壞脂肪那樣被代謝,並可能被儲存起來。是的。如果你在每餐的攝入上加起來每餐多出 104 卡路里,持續一整年,那幾乎是 11 磅。這意味著如果你在一個有壓力的環境中待上一年,且吃的東西與前一年完全相同,你會增重 11 磅。我們知道在抑鬱症中,例如,皮質醇調節失調。這意味著代謝出現了失調,因為皮質醇是一種代謝性化學物質。服用SSRIs(選擇性血清素再攝取抑制劑)的人,通常是用來治療抑鬱症的抗憂鬱藥物,或者SNRIs(選擇性去甲腎上腺素再攝取抑制劑)。這意味著它們會作用於血清素,讓更多的血清素留在神經元之間。血清素是一種代謝調節因子,去甲腎上腺素也是。一些直接參與你代謝的化學物質。所以說,抑鬱症有代謝基礎這不是一個信念。我認為問題是,這些代謝影響的精華是什麼,導致某人發展成抑鬱狀態?但我想強調的是,我實際上是因為在努力治療我的孩子,試圖找到幫助她的方法,才開始思考代謝和抑鬱之間的關係。當時她的症狀是什麼?如果有任何能夠產生共鳴的父母,或任何聽到這個的人。如果是這樣的話,我之前已經講過這個關於青少年抑鬱症的演講。青少年是一種完美的代謝脆弱的暴風雨,這有很多原因。你知道,你的大腦被困在一個叫做顱骨的黑暗安靜的箱子裡。它正在接收來自身體和世界的信號。它不知道那些信號的原因是什麼,只有效應。它必須猜測原因。猜測是什麼?來自過去的預測,對吧?所以它不會立刻知道激素的激增。其實需要大約 20 分鐘,或者有時稍微少一點,取決於激素變化的位置和來源,大腦才能接收到那些變化的信號。然後它必須猜測這些變化的原因。精神病學和醫學中的敘事大致是這樣的。故事是,你的腦袋是一個戰場,對吧?所以這個觀念是,你出生時具有這些天生的情感回路。其實你並沒有任何情感回路,你根本沒有情感回路。但這個敘事是說,你出生時擁有這些天生的情感回路,它們可以運作,但你出生時並沒有控制它們的能力。這需要隨著時間的推移來發展。因此在青少年時期,這個觀念是情緒障礙產生是因為你缺乏足夠的認知控制,情感過於強烈。所以你擁有這種不受控制的情感,這就是問題。這是一個非常吸引人的敘事,但這基本上是神經上的胡說八道。在這個敘事中其實沒有良好的證據。我聽說過是化學失衡。是的。人們有時會以血清素是快樂化學物質、而多巴胺是獎勵化學物質來談論這種化學失衡。而這種簡化非常過於簡化,甚至可以說是錯誤。好吧,多巴胺不是獎勵化學物質,而血清素也不是快樂化學物質。它們都是代謝調節因子。你可以在某些神經元的懲罰期間看到多巴胺的增加,而血清素在你的身體和很多地方會做很多事情。
    但在控制實驗中,它所做的其中一件事是讓動物在沒有即時代謝獎勵的情況下進行覓食、參與活動、進行身體活動和學習。結尾沒有獎勵。因此,許多神經科學家現在更認為多巴胺是一種對努力是必要的化學物質,無論是身體上的努力還是學習某些事物的心理努力。它實際上與獎勵並不特定。因此,最開始的時候,我的女兒從一個非常熱情、積極參與,而且社交非常活躍的孩子變化過來,她在學校表現出色。她並不是一個完美的孩子,但她非常熱情、充滿活力,擁有很多朋友。然後,到她上十年級的時候,她變得內向,學校成績是D,無法集中注意力,睡不著覺,過得非常痛苦。她真的很痛苦,但和她在一起的感覺也很糟糕。老實說,剛開始我們以為她是懶惰。我們想,她不想做任何事情。她想把時間都花在房間裡。她想要擺脫所有活動。我們想,快點,行動起來吧。我們以為她懶惰。我當時真的從來沒有想過,因為她小時候根本沒有情緒症狀,真的一個都沒有。然後突然間,她似乎沒有精力去做任何事。對我們來說,看起來就是她懶惰,不想做家庭作業,而且似乎真的很不投入。過了一段時間我才意識到,哦,不,這是其他問題。她對我們的對話記憶有困難。開始我以為,哦,你不專心聽我說話。但後來 我發現,即使在日常生活中,她也無法告訴我她一天發生了什麼。她只記不住任何細節。這也是抑鬱的徵兆,當你失去對日子細節的情節記憶時,你只能講出大致的內容,無法給出具體的時間、地點和事件。你只是無法長時間保持那個資訊以便之後記起來。沒有那個資訊的鞏固。當她上十年級的時候,她帶著數學的D回家。這是一個在八歲時就已經在做初步代數的孩子。我們告訴她我們需要進行評估,因為我們不知道發生了什麼。那是我們意識到她臨床抑鬱的時候。還有一件我應該提到的事就是,她的經痛非常嚴重。因此,對於嚴重的經痛,一種治療方式就是給女孩開避孕藥。因為它可以平衡月經中的荷爾蒙波動,並且實際上能改善經痛。但現在已經相當普遍地知道,當年輕女性使用避孕藥時,重大抑鬱症發作的可能性會增加40%到70%。如果是雌激素-孕激素的結合藥物,可能更接近40%。如果是僅含孕激素的藥物,許多年輕女性都在使用,因為副作用較少,則重大抑鬱症發作的可能性則會增加70%。而我讀到的第一項研究就是在一百萬名女性中進行的。當我閱讀那項研究時,我記得我當時的情況。這就像一瞬間的閃光。我看完後,打電話給她的兒科醫生,說她今天要停藥。今天。告訴我是否有任何副作用,還是可以直接停藥?醫生說,嗯,依我看——而我當時想,我根本不在乎你的看法。我剛剛讀了一項針對一百萬女性的大規模流行病學研究。她今天就要停藥。這是在她經歷抑鬱之前還是之後?這是在她被確診後的——也許是一年以後。之後,我讀了一本由科學歷史學家娜奧米·奧雷斯基斯寫的書,書名叫《為什麼要相信科學》。這是一本很棒的書。但在書中,她舉例說,一些地方和現象,公眾不信任科學,而他們應該信任。這就是其中之一。顯然,這已經被知道很久了。我想指出的是,雌激素、孕激素和睾酮進化成為代謝調節器。我強調這一點是因為在一個把心理與身體分開的文化中,我們並沒有考慮到代謝在情緒或視覺中的角色。這是一個非常近期的事情。在我們的實驗室中,我們現在研究的其中一項是代謝在非常基本的心理現象中的角色。這基本上是一個心靈的基本建構單元。因此,你女兒展現出那些症狀。我很想知道在那個時候,傳統醫學告訴你應該如何處理女兒的情況,與你實際上所做的有何不同。你擁有這麼多資訊,還有醫療背景。是的,我應該說,這是幾年前的事情。因此,現在正發生著一場革命,目前有一種叫做代謝精神病學的事情。當時 我在閱讀這些時,聽起來真是瘋狂。當我看到我的女兒正在痛苦,真的很痛苦。談起這件事我非常困難,因為在和你談的過程中,我心裏在想,我真希望我能更早地搞清楚這些。
    不過無論如何,我們所做的是我找到每一條可能的路徑來針對她的身體預算,也就是說,針對她的新陳代謝。然後我們基本上制定了一個每日例行程序,她也參與了這個過程,以看看我們是否能把她引導到不同的軌道上,你知道嗎?這包括從退出社交媒體開始。為什麼?因為,首先,她就像很多孩子一樣,晚上常常使用電子屏幕。在那個時候——而且再說一次,這也是我偶然發現的,對吧?但事實上,在一個國家癌症研究所的會議上——你知道,我們有視網膜神經節細胞。我們的視網膜中有細胞調節晝夜節律,並且對來自屏幕的光波長非常敏感。因此,如果你晚上看這些屏幕,你的腦子會覺得是白天,像是你的晝夜節律——你基本上會給自己帶來晝夜節律障礙。這樣會使你更難進入正常的睡眠周期,而你需要這個正常的睡眠周期來清除毒素,並整合你白天學到的東西,以便你稍後能夠記住它。而在深度睡眠中會發生很多修復性的事情,這是你真的需要的。如果你得不到足夠的深度睡眠,這會使你的預算問題加劇。因此,我們針對她——我們讓她退出社交媒體,首先,晚上七點或八點之後不看屏幕。退出社交媒體以減少社會不確定性和社會壓力。我每天早上5點半起床,為她做早餐,坐在她旁邊吃早餐,以確保她攝取營養豐富的食物,而不是像波浪餅和那些東西這樣的伪食物。我們還需要讓她重新開始運動,因此她開始長途步行。她開始進行普拉提訓練,不是那種地板上的普拉提,而是那種用改革器做的,會讓任何人哭泣的那種,你知道嗎?為什麼運動與這種預算和新陳代謝功能有關?因為運動基本上——就像你的大腦一樣——就像你把自己從代謝平衡中擲出來,以便大腦學習如何重新回到平衡點。就像,你基本上在提升你身體系統的彈性,基本上是這樣的,所以她不是——你知道,她需要更像間歇訓練的東西,這就是這些普拉提課程的特點,而不是,比如說,練習打網球或什麼的。這些訓練是有助於她在一定時間內進入代謝不調的狀態,然後她喝水,這樣再吃點健康的東西。然後她的系統基本上學會變得更加靈活,而不是那麼僵化。因此,再次強調,這就像是用預測誤差進行劑量,或者像是給大腦提供機會來學習它是錯誤的。然後還有Omega-3,因此我們用了——我不記得確切的劑量,但我給她服用了高Omega-3、低Omega-6的膳食補充劑。在她醫生的同意下,我們還每天在吃飽肚子後服用一次嬰兒阿司匹林來減少全身性炎症。因此,在睡前——在睡前,我們一直會進行抱抱,當她小的時候,我們讀故事或什麼的。在她早期的青少年時期,她拒絕了這一切,然後我們把它帶回來了。因此,在睡前一小時,我們會——要麼我,要麼她的爸爸,有時我們三個人一起——我們會一起讀書,或者你知道的,他會給我們讀書。我們會坐下來聊天,她會告訴我她在學校的所有事情,她能記得的。這些事情有時真的很可怕,我只需要同理心。這對我來說非常困難,因為我只想解決問題。我只想解決問題。這真的需要我親自借助自己作為治療師的經驗去承受這些痛苦,而不是告訴她,這樣做,這樣做,這樣做。我花了很長時間才學會這一點,而且有時我仍然在與此掙扎。為什麼這很重要?因為那樣她會感覺到被聽見,被理解。而當你——我花了很長時間才明白這一點。當她告訴我,有人做了某件極為惡毒的事情時,如果我做任何事都不如同情,她會感到我沒有聽到她的聲音。社會支持是一個主要因素——我的意思是,我們是彼此神經系統的照顧者。人類是社交動物。這很難相信。我覺得在我們這種如此個人主義的文化中,對吧,這似乎是一種政治聲明什麼的,無論你的政治觀點如何,其實並不重要。我們以這樣的方式進化,老兄。我們是社交動物。我們互相在代謝上影響彼此。我們可以增加存款,也可以增加稅收。你知道,人類神經系統的最佳方案是另一個人類。人類神經系統的最壞的事情是另一個人類。錯的人。有這麼多實驗顯示——我的意思是,我剛看過一套實驗,來自我的一位前博士後,那真是驚人,她研究了母親和嬰兒的葡萄糖代謝。如果我沒有記錯的話,她也在研究約會伴侶。她觀察了他們獨自一人和在一起的情況,就像在執行任務時獨自一人和一起時的任務。母嬰之間的健康連結實際上使他們的葡萄糖代謝更加高效,字面上說是更高效。而我相信她也用約會伴侶證實了這一點。你知道,這些研究,這些老研究顯示,與朋友一起攀爬山坡,背著背包的熱量需求比與陌生人一起時要低。
    我指的是,這裡有許多非常瘋狂的發現——但如果你意識到人類在物理上真的彼此影響,不論他們是否意識到這點,或是否有意圖,這一切都是完全無關緊要的。 或者說,我認為,產生這種影響,讓這些影響存在,都是不必要的,然後這一切就開始變得有意義了。你知道,就像這個觀念——再一次,綜合分析顯示,如果你擁有一個充滿你信任的人和信任你的人的社交生活,你的平均壽命會比其他人多活幾年。 所以這就是為什麼你會在睡前把家人召集在一起嗎? 因為這是在調節她的神經系統,她的身體? 是啊。 有時她仍然會跟我這麼說,事實上。 她會說,你能不能在一分鐘內當我的朋友,而不是我的母親? 我會回答,是的,我可以。 然後我真的需要這麼做,這有時很難。 或者我會對她說,這是為父母的事。 任何擁有青少年或成年孩子的人,這就像是我——我不知道我是怎麼想到這點的,但這幾乎是金子般寶貴的,對吧? 我對她說,我現在有一個母親時刻,我感覺需要在某件事上對你嘮叨一下。 如果我能在這件事上嘮叨你一分鐘,我就不用再告訴你了。 所以我其實是在詢問她的許可。 我能告訴你這件事情嗎?我真的很想對你說。 我知道你不想聽這些,但如果你能聽我說一分鐘,對我來說會是非常大的恩惠。 而且我知道這都是我的問題。 這完全是我的問題。 這不是你的問題。 所有問題都在我身上。 這是我。 但如果你能讓我這麼做,那將會更好一些。 而大多數時候,她都會以極大的忍耐力回答,你知道,沒問題,媽媽,隨便你。 有時她會說,今天不行。 然後我真的需要聽她的,你知道? 所以,是啊。 但可能還有其他我現在想不到的事情。 我把它們全都寫下來了,因為很多人曾問我這個問題。 而我喜歡說的是,這並不是——我不是醫生。 我不是精神科醫生。 這不是給你的孩子的建議或食譜。 我只是在告訴你我作為一名科學家的做法。 而且你也寫下了你所做的事情。 你還保留有一份副本。 所以如果有人想要了解你所做的事情,我可以在下面鏈接它。 是的,但這——再一次,這是—— 這是你當時對你的女兒所做的事情。 對,就像是作為一個人。 誰閱讀過文獻,我——這並不是——這不是醫療建議。 我 realmente 強烈地說,你不能強迫你的青少年做任何事情。 除非你威脅他們身體上的傷害,否則其實根本無法強迫你的孩子。 他們必須自己做出選擇,對吧? 她恢復了嗎? 是的,她恢復了。 而我認為她能夠好起來的原因之一,是她並不是完全沒挑戰情緒的時候,但她以物理的角度來理解它們。 她並不把自己的情緒理解為心理問題。 她理解它作為她身體預算的症狀或指標。 這是我在研究你工作的時候學到的東西,對我真的非常有幫助。而這幾乎完全符合你剛才所說的,這就是有時我情緒不太好。 如果我對此沒有意識,壞情緒就會造成混亂,對吧? 我可能會對別人發火,或者其他什麼。 而當我在閱讀你的工作,並從身體預算的角度思考壞情緒或好情緒時,這使你暫時停頓一下,想一下,我錯過了什麼? 而且讓你非常意識到你接下來的行動。 它幾乎使你突然握住方向盤,然後說,好吧,這裡有問題。 這是一個物理問題。 我昨晚沒有睡好。 我還沒吃飯。 無論是什麼,真的要了解這些會使你做什麼、感受什麼或思考什麼。 而你需要採取的行動,也許就是取消你今天所有的計劃,回到床上去。 嗯,但我認為你剛好指出了非常重要的事情。 這會改變你接下來的行動。 是的。 而這會改變接下來事情發展的軌跡。 而我認為這真的——這並不是一種魔法療法。 再次強調,你知道,但是當一個人感到非常苦惱時,你要麼看向世界,想知道世界上出了什麼問題,要麼你關心自己。 我自己出了什麼問題? 其實,可能這真的是。 也許世界上確實出了一些問題。 也許你自己也有問題。 但最有可能的是,這是一個身體預算問題。 即使世界上可能存在某種問題,如果你在管理你的身體預算,那麼你會更加適合去應對那件事情。 你真的需要儘可能地設計你的日曆,以服從你在身體預算周圍的職業。 而對我來說,我兩年前做出的重大改變——我非常有幸,我明白,並不是每個人都能做到。 我在工作於呼叫中心時無法做到的——就是我制定了一個規則,那就是在早上11點之前不開會。 這對我來說,就意味著我從不設鬧鐘,所以我在充電完畢後醒來。 而這是最深刻的事情。 我應該更早這麼做的。 但這對我的生活產生了非常大的影響。 因為幾乎可以保證我非常非常少有缺覺的情況,雖然偶爾會發生,因為我經常需要出差和其他事務。但這真的對我的生活產生了深遠的影響。 是的,我認為,你知道—— 作為一位領導者,以及—— 沒錯。 而且我認為,老實說如果領導者莊重對待這一點,那麼希望會有人察覺到這對每個人來說也都是重要的。 而且,我們有一個以特定方式結構的社會,但這並不是以這種方式結構的必要條件。 了解,在工作生產力方面,最大的預測因素,除了你知道的,就是睡眠和水分。
    在排除睡眠和水分補充之後,我認為運動也非常重要。你知道,有些人相比其他人有更多的選擇,對吧?但我認為,對於那些首席執行官、領導者和商業領袖來說,重要的是要理解有一些很好的商業理由。有一些很好的經濟理由來認真對待這些問題。我是否是對的,認為酒精會影響你的身體預算,因而使你更難以展現出所有其他行為並在其他方面耗費精力,並且因此也增加了你憂鬱的概率?
    所以我應該說,我不是酒精代謝方面的專家,因此我要根據我所知道的進行推斷。我想說的是,有時人們喝酒就像吃巧克力一樣,或者說他們是為了味道或是體驗而喝,對吧?但很多人最終會使用酒精。他們可能最初是這樣開始的,或可能是因為和朋友在一起,但後來他們意識到酒精會影響他們的情緒。任何影響你情緒的東西,比如人們常常談論情緒調節,但實際上是情緒的調節。再次強調,你的情緒就是這些一直伴隨著你的簡單感受。你的大腦總是調節著你的身體,而你的身體總是向你的大腦發送信號,而這些信號共同構成了情緒。因此,情緒是一種意識的特性,它總是在你身邊。在某些時刻,你會根據外部世界理解這些信號和情緒的關係。那就是你體驗到情感的時候,對吧?在這方面,你的行為將兩者聯繫起來。
    但很多時候,我們不這樣做。我們只是把情緒視為意識的一種特性。你知道,這是一種美味的飲品。那個人真討厭。你真可靠。情緒嵌入在對世界的感知中。而當人們……有時鴉片類藥物也會有這種效果。它們是改變情緒的,這意味著它們在操控你的情緒時,也在操控你的代謝。當人們上癮時,他們常常是因為在調節自己的情緒,試圖減少痛苦。至於酒精對代謝的影響,或者說這是一個問題,我不應該這樣說,因為我並不確切知道情緒是如何運作的,我的預期是它並不只是以單一的方式影響。而且,我確實知道還存在上下文效應。實際上,你可以喝一樣多的酒,在不同的上下文中可能會有不同的效果。這一點讓我非常震驚,當我看到那項研究時。所以我認為這不是一個簡單的關係,但我知道有一件事,就是你的預測會變得不準,而你不會吸收預測誤差。你不會學習。你不會更新任何東西,所以你的行為未必與你所處的情境良好校準,這會造成各種後續的困難問題。你知道,你可能會讓後續的情況變得更糟,並且使得日後的預算管理變得更加困難。
    當你急著離開家卻找不到手機或錢包時,難道不是非常煩人嗎?現在,因為蘋果,如果你有iPhone,你通常可以使用Find My進行追蹤。但直到最近,如果你丟失了錢包,這一切都不可能。不過,這現在已經改變了,因為今天的贊助商Exter。Exter是同類產品中的第一個。我們與蘋果合作,創造了一個可追蹤的錢包,如果你丟失了你的錢包,可以在幾秒鐘內找到。這就是它。你可能會認識Exter,因為他們與萊昂內爾·梅西的合作。它非常纖薄,採用回收鋁製成,內置RFID防盜功能以保護個人身份免受盜竊,並且只需點擊一下,所有的卡片就會彈出,讓你可以輕鬆刷卡。我經常談論百分之一的改進。當我看到Exter時,對我而言,它是傳統錢包上無數百分之一改進的總和。因此,如果你正在尋找升級,請前往Exter.com,並使用代碼Stephen以額外10%的折扣參加他們的春季促銷活動,該活動將於5月19日結束。現在就去那裡看看吧。而且你還可以享受免費運送和100天試用期。那就是Exter.com,使用代碼Stephen。
    我想問你一個我聽到你提到的事情。我其實還聽到過我播客的其他嘉賓提到它。直到我聽到你這麼說,我才真的確定這是否成立,那就是我們可以通過微笑來改變自己的情緒。因為如果大腦在預測,那麼假設如果我露出燦爛的微笑並說「是的」,那麼大腦就會預測良好的感受,並引發良好的感覺等等。那你會讓我感覺良好嗎?嗯,是的,也不全然。你知道,人們在不快樂的時候也會微笑。人們在生氣的時候也會微笑。人們在策劃敵人的滅亡時也會微笑。人們出於各種原因微笑。人們在害怕的時候也會微笑。但是,從技術上而言,我可以通過微笑來讓自己更快樂嗎?元分析的證據表明,這的確有輕微的效果,是的,有一點小效果。去皺吧——對,沒錯。就像在牙齒之間放一支鉛筆。沒錯,繼續。哦,你需要那個,是的。現在微笑。現在去皺。好了。就這樣。因此,我想說的是,這是一個微不足道的效果大小。它非常小。我確實感到更快樂。你呢?是的。但這也許是因為我讓你做了一些傻事?也許是的,但無論如何,重點是這個效應被過度誇大。我記得最近的元分析是說確實有小的效果。
    但是小的效果意味著它並不適用於所有人,也並不總是有效。 這真的只是非常非常微小的效果。
    你必須對注意力缺陷過動症 (ADHD) 有一個觀點,這已經成為社會上討論的巨大話題。
    我被診斷為ADHD。
    我不一定將它視為什麼,因為我在朋友中看到了如此多不同的ADHD變化。
    但ADHD的出現量大幅上升,這與你在大腦作為預測工具方面所做的工作有關。
    所以我一般的回應是,人們——自我診斷的人數正在上升,人們把診斷用作對行為或人們為什麼會經歷他們所經歷的事情的解釋。
    診斷並不是對任何事情的解釋。
    它們是描述。
    它們不解釋任何事情。
    把診斷當作解釋的處理方式是一種本質主義的表現,這並不是一件好事。
    這意味著你假設有某種基礎的、不變的本質,這就是負責的原因——其實存在一種叫心理本質主義的東西,你甚至不知道這種本質是什麼。
    你只是假設它存在,你只是假設它存在,並且它是所有這些症狀的原因。
    但診斷只是症狀的描述。
    而診斷對於計費治療時間是最有用的。
    它們並不優化用來描述行為的集群,或者行為的集合,有時候,因為人們認為血清素和多巴胺是造成某人有ADHD的原因。
    這是我相信的理論之一——
    所以存在許多血清素受體。
    也有多個多巴胺受體。
    它們並不是都做相同的事。
    血清素不止做一件事。
    多巴胺不止做一件事。
    它在身體和大腦的不同位置做不同的事情,具體取決於受體的類型。
    而且,每一種抵抗力資源和每一種困難症狀都有其背景。
    有要求,就像我們的社會結構那樣,對於坐著並專注於某件事情很長時間是有要求的。
    這一要求隱藏在背景之中。
    它經常存在,以至於我們忘記了這是做出診斷的條件。
    所以無論如何——首先,ADHD不是一組症狀。
    它是一種多樣性。
    就像你可以有不同的症狀特徵但診斷相同,因為它只是描述性、且有很多症狀。
    其中一些症狀也存在於——它們與其他症候群、其他診斷群有重疊。
    但重點是,當你診斷某人時,聽起來像是那是那個人的特性。
    是的。
    但並不是。
    這是那個人在所處環境中的特性。
    社會期望——以任何方式來說,例如他能在學校集中注意力嗎?
    是的。
    而學校的組織方式是,你知道,你要坐很長時間。
    那麼,可能有其他情況,不將注意力長時間集中在某一件事情上可能是有利的。
    所以我的觀點是,幾乎沒有什麼是絕對好的或者絕對壞的。
    總是有一個隱藏的條件。
    當然。
    總是有一個隱藏的背景。
    所以我認為強調這個背景是非常重要的。
    你並沒有壞掉。
    你只是——你在特定背景下的適應性被認為是——不合適的。
    這對那個背景來說是沒有生產力的。
    而這聽起來可能像是模糊的話,或者你知道的,但這不是,因為能力的重要性是依賴於背景的。
    再一次,我會說這不是我在表達同情心,你知道,進步主義者之類的。
    我是個富有同情心的進步主義者,但這並不是那樣的例子。
    這是我務實的一個例子。
    你可以彼此調節,這是你之前提到的,我覺得真的非常有趣。
    我在閱讀一項針對25,000人的研究,他們發現,心臟病發作的人如果已婚,存活的機率要高出14%。
    但我發現有趣的是,我們用言語彼此調節。
    我想你做過一個研究,評估言語對情緒的促進力量。
    你是說,這是一個你共同撰寫的研究。
    好吧,我們在許多背景中研究過言語的力量,包括作為邀請使人理解的詞彙——你知道,因此如果情感的例子是你試圖理解自己身體與世界之間發生的事情,那麼每次你使用一個情感詞時,你就邀請人們以那種方式來理解。
    所以你已經證明,某些詞能夠讓我們冷靜下來?
    好吧,是的,但我不會說我證明了任何事情。
    科學家不會,然後,
    顯示、演示。
    對,演示在——你知道,在一個背景中,對吧?
    就像,我們——你知道,科學家不喜歡“事實”這個字。
    我喜歡另一個“事實”的字,但事實。
    這是一個棘手的詞,因為它意味著在所有情況和背景下都成立的東西,而這種情況非常少見。
    所以——但好吧,我們已經。
    所以——我的意思是,你可能已經做了不下百萬次,你會給人發簡訊,你不是嗎?
    是的。
    是的,當你給伴侶或朋友發幾個字的簡訊,你可以改變他們的心率。
    你會改變他們的呼吸速率。
    你可以僅僅用幾個字就改變各種化學物質,改變各種蛋白質合成。
    再一次,我們生活在這一——你知道,自由言論很重要。
    自由是重要的,但自由伴隨著責任。
    無論你喜不喜歡,我們以各種方式調節彼此的神經系統,包括用言語。
    並且——
    不管是好還是壞。
    不管是好還是壞。
    確實如此。
    所以—
    你讓我對壓力的看法也有所改變,總的來說。
    因為如果我通過這個代謝預算的視角來思考我的生活,而壓力成為這個預算的負擔,那麼如果我不限制自己的壓力,我就更有可能超出預算。
    而如果我超出預算,我的免疫系統可能是我削減成本的部分,或是其他某些方面。
    對。
    我的意思是,有好—你不能沒有壓力。
    那意味著你沒有努力。
    所以,你知道,有時科學家會談論好壓力和壞壓力,這其實只是意味著計劃好的壓力,並且你能夠補充你所花費的,與那些有害的壓力,而你卻無法補充。
    慢性壓力。
    慢性壓力,還有,嗯。
    所以,你知道,如果你在一個壓力巨大的會議上,會議影響了你的情緒,這意味著有一些代謝的影響,也要考慮到這意味著什麼。
    根據你對大腦的所有了解,我想知道這是否改變了你對宗教、上帝和靈性的看法,以及是否真的存在一個更高的力量。
    大腦是如此美妙而複雜的事物。
    你知道,站在2025年的客觀觀察者看著大腦,因為這真是太神奇了。
    許多人因而得出結論,必定有一個創造者存在。
    但今天我們也討論了很多關於意義和一切意義的問題。
    所以你所學到的一切有關大腦、神經科學和心理學的知識,是否讓你相信有上帝?
    不。
    這是否讓你更傾向於無神論或不可知論?
    我基本上是一個堅定的無神論者。
    我不認為自然界或大腦或神經系統的奇妙複雜性需要一個設計者。
    這樣的邏輯對我來說不成立。
    所以這顯然是一個可怕的跳躍。
    但是你是否因此認為,除了繁衍和—
    我現在第二次在讀這本書。
    它叫《開放的蘇格拉底》。
    好吧。
    這是一本非常棒的書。
    我學到了很多我不知道的蘇格拉底哲學。
    蘇格拉底認為重要的一件事是提出什麼是意義的問題。
    而且不應該在15分鐘的增量中問這個問題。
    你應該真正地從整個人生的延展來問這個問題。
    因此,我認為,作為一個科學家,研究大腦和身體以及我們世界中其他大腦和身體不斷交談的過程,
    這樣如何創造出許多心靈,包括我們非常西方的心靈,讓我更思考哲學的重要性。
    因為我認為哲學提出的問題與宗教信仰試圖回答的問題是相同的。
    對我而言,這是一條更好的道路。
    我認為這是一條更舒適的道路。
    我其實一生中經常在問這樣的問題。
    所以它讓我覺得更像是,這一切有什麼意義?
    最終的意義是什麼?
    對我來說,答案是讓這個世界比我發現的時候更好一點。
    就像是約翰尼·阿普爾西德的哲學。
    你知道,作為一名科學家,我們許多人,實際上,我們並不是為了金錢而做我們所做的事情。
    金錢並不好。
    但我們並不是為了金錢而做我們所做的事情。
    我們是為了其他動機,對吧?
    為了知道,為了好奇,為了嘗試發現事物。
    在某個時候,我們開始思考,嗯,你的遺產是什麼,對吧?
    我們大多數人都不是達爾文。
    我們不是威廉·詹姆斯。
    我們不是海森堡。
    我們不是,你知道,我們大多數人都不是那些人。
    那麼你留下的遺產是什麼?
    最終,我意識到我發表了很多同行評審的論文。
    當人們介紹我的時候,你知道,他們會提到一些關於我的引用的事情,無論怎樣。
    莉莎博士是情感、神經科學和大腦本質領域中最具影響力的人物之一。
    她是全球被引用的科學家中前0.1%,因為她在心理學和神經科學方面的革命性研究。
    是的,這一切都很好,非常好。
    但實際上,我的遺產真的是我所培養的人們,我所與之互動的思想。
    如果我要算這些,我可能會算算那些現在存在的實驗室,這些實驗室在之前並不存在,幾代科學家是我所培養的,或者,嗯,還有那些培養我的人,當然,一路上。
    所以從某種程度上說,這就是我的遺產,真的是人,是人和思想。
    我希望,當我以前經常進行課堂教學時,我告訴自己的是,如果我能改變這個班級中僅一個人的軌跡,結果,那麼我就完成了我的工作。
    你知道,我也有一點這樣的感覺,你知道,對於我目前所做的公共科學教育,
    如果我能幫助,無論是我所學到的東西還是我所傳達的東西能幫助其他人過上更有意識的生活,成為有主體性的代理人,選擇並影響他們的摯愛或孩子,
    那麼,那就是我的工作了。
    這是我的遺產。
    而關於這樣的遺產,影響人們生活的思想遺產,艱難的地方在於你永遠無法知道你的影響是什麼。
    但這是其中的一部分。
    在這個播客中,我們有一個結尾的傳統,最後一位嘉賓會為下一位嘉賓留下問題,而不曉得他們是留給誰的。
    問題是,如何在不獲得任何東西的情況下生活?
    我對這個人有一些背景資料。
    他們是一位黑帶少林僧侶。
    所以他們經常談論身份。
    當然。
    還有生活中沒有負擔和依附等等。
    對。
    所以,這聽起來像是一個非常佛教的問題。
    問題在於,我認為即使是佛教徒達成了一些東西,他們也達成了覺悟。因此,他們不必必然地有執著。他們沒有財富。他們沒有權力。他們沒有,但他們獲得了一些東西。他們獲得了覺悟。他們獲得了寧靜。那麼,如何在不依賴身份的情況下生活呢?讓你不快樂的嗎?那我認為,重要的是要記住,你其實並沒有一個與你當下所處的時刻分開的身份。這不是說你有某種本質。我想說的是,你所經歷的一切,你所做的每一件事都是你所記得的過去和感官的現在的結合。這意味著,要改變你是誰,你可以改變你記得的東西或你如何進行預測,或者你可以通過實際起身前往其他地方(例如去散步)來改變感官的現在。或者你可以通過你關注的事物來改變感官的現在,例如正念,對吧?有些感官信號是在你注意的最前面,而有些則在背景中潛伏。例如,你現在可能並未關注某些感官信號,但當我提到它們—像是椅子對你背部和腿部的壓力—你就會開始注意。因為我剛剛提到它們,所以它們成為你注意的焦點。因此,我想說的是,你的身份並沒有本質。你是你所做的。在那一刻,你是你所做的。而且你可以改變你所做的事情。你可以改變你所經歷的事物,這是生活經驗所帶來的後果,而這取決於你記得的內容和上下文。因此,這就是我的答案。如果你總是記住這一點,你就永遠不會有執著。你永遠不會渴望或努力去擁有東西以及所有這些人為的東西,這些東西支撐著那個你是且你有某種本質的幻覺,這種本質在不同的情境中是不會改變的。是的,我們很容易陷入認為我們就是我們所做的事情的陷阱。我更喜歡說,我是我所做的。因為這意味著我有自主權,在當下做出不同的決策,而不必受過去所做的事情的限制。但是這是我們所陷入的陷阱。在十分鐘後,我敢打賭我會回到樓下,重新陷入認為我就是這位做了三十二年的斯蒂芬·巴特利特的陷阱。謝謝你,莉莎。非常感謝你,謝謝你所做的一切。我,你已經以非常深刻的方式改變了我的想法。這真的很難,因為我經常坐在這裡。因此,我有很多關於大腦的對話,還有大量新出的研究等。但是你讓我完全改變了看法,使我從一種完全不同的方式思考,這我非常感激。因此,非常感謝你,因為這是一份禮物。這不是我在做這份工作的時候總是能得到的禮物,但這真的很珍貴。而且我認為這將幫助我最終過上更好的生活。但也許對所有在聽的人來說都是如此,謝謝你踏入你生活中的公共交流一面,因為我想說,作為一個知道你所知道並且做過你所做工作的人的角色,這是如此重要,以至於我幾乎將其視為一項非常重要的責任。因為像我們這樣的人坐在這些播客上,並不在實驗室裡,從社交媒體、抖音或任何隨口說話的人那裡獲取信息。因此,像你這樣的人更應該走出來,分享你的知識。還有,謝謝你寫這些書,因為它們真是太棒了。就像你今天改變了我的想法,我認為這些書將改變很多人的生活。我強烈推薦這本書,《情緒是如何形成的》。我將在下面鏈接它,《大腦的秘密生活》。還有一本稍微短一些的、同樣易於理解的書《關於大腦的七個半課》。非常感謝你。我要告訴你一個小秘密。你們可能會覺得我和我的團隊有點奇怪,但我至今仍然記得當我的團隊中的詹米瑪在Slack上發佈說她改變了這個工作室的氣味的時候。她發佈後,整個辦公室在我們的Slack頻道中鼓掌。這可能聽起來瘋狂,但在《CEO的日記》中,這就是我們在節目中所做的那種1%的改進。這就是為什麼這檔節目會變成現在的樣子。通過理解1%複利的力量,你完全可以改變你生活中的結果。這並不是關於劇變或快速獲勝,而是關於小而持續的行動,這些行動會對你的結果產生持久影響。因此,兩年前,我們開始創建這本美麗的日記,它真的很漂亮。裡面有很多圖片,還有很多啟發和激勵的內容,還有一些互動元素。這本日記的目的是幫助你識別、專注於並培養與那個1%的一致性,最終改變你的生活。如果你想要一本給自己、給朋友、給同事或者給你的團隊,請立即前往thediary.com。我會在下面鏈接。這一直讓我感到驚訝。你們中有53%的人常聽這個節目但還沒訂閱。所以我可以請你們幫個忙嗎?如果你喜歡這個節目,喜歡我們在這裡所做的事情,並且想要支持我們,最簡單的免費方式就是點擊訂閱按鈕。我的承諾是,如果你這樣做,我和我的團隊會全力以赴,確保這個節目每周對你更好。
    我們會聆聽你的反饋,我們會找到你希望我交流的嘉賓,並且我們會繼續做我們該做的事情。非常感謝。

    What if your anxiety isn’t fear, and your trauma might not be real? Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett reveals how your brain creates emotional illusions.

    Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett is a Professor of Psychology and among the top 0.1% of most cited scientists for her revolutionary research in psychology and neuroscience. She is also the author of books such as ‘Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain’.

    In this conversation, Dr. Lisa and Steven discuss topics such as, how anxiety is a predictive error in the brain, the shocking truth about childhood trauma, how trauma can be contagious, and why you don’t have any free will. 

    00:00 Intro

    02:22 Lisa’s Mission

    04:14 Why Is It Important to Understand How the Brain Works?

    10:48 Measuring Emotions

    13:55 What Is the Predictive Brain?

    16:08 Examples of the Brain Making Predictions

    24:13 Is the Predictive Brain at the Root of Trauma?

    31:27 Cultural Inheritance, Trauma, Anxiety, and Depression

    36:29 How Reframing Past Events Can Change Identity

    42:41 Meaning as a Consequence of Action

    44:11 How to Overcome Fear by Taking Action

    45:43 Prediction Error

    47:37 Learning Through Exposure

    49:47 Dangers of Social Contagion

    54:06 Anxiety in the Context of Social Contagion

    58:33 Is Social Media Programming Us to Be Sad?

    1:02:08 Ads

    1:03:03 First Step to Overcoming Mental Health Issues

    1:05:18 Chronic Pain

    1:08:23 What Is Depression?

    1:09:17 Body Budgeting and Body Bankruptcy

    1:12:26 How Stress Contributes to Weight Gain

    1:15:00 Depression in Adolescents

    1:17:02 Is Depression a Chemical Imbalance?

    1:18:30 The Story of Lisa’s Daughter

    1:21:09 Oral Birth Control as a Risk Factor for Depression

    1:24:07 How Lisa Helped Her Daughter Overcome Depression

    1:29:11 Social Support

    1:35:26 Lisa’s Daughter’s Recovery from Depression

    1:39:12 Does Alcohol Affect the Body Budget and Increase Depression Risk?

    1:42:45 Ads

    1:44:00 Can People Change Emotions by Smiling?

    1:45:49 Lisa’s Perspective on ADHD

    1:48:01 The Power of Words to Facilitate Emotion

    1:52:26 Stress as a Burden to the Metabolic Budget

    1:53:27 Lisa’s View on God and Religion

    1:54:25 What Is the Meaning of Life in Lisa’s Opinion?

    1:59:32 Question from the Previous Guest

    Follow Dr Lisa: 

    X – https://g2ul0.app.link/JlkAHKXhCSb 

    Website – https://g2ul0.app.link/TWOO6vZhCSb 

    You can purchase Dr Lisa’s book, ‘Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/35oJGs4hCSb 

    Watch the episodes on Youtube – https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes 

    The 1% Diary is back – and it won’t be around for long, so act fast! https://bit.ly/1-Diary-Megaphone-ad-reads

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  • Is the Future of Flight Supersonic?

    AI transcript
    0:00:06 Pushkin.
    0:00:11 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
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    0:00:22 Learn how podcasting can help your business.
    0:00:24 Call 844-844-iHeart.
    0:00:29 The first airline ever, the first airline in the history of the world,
    0:00:31 started in 1914.
    0:00:36 It flew passengers just a short hop across the bay from St. Petersburg to Tampa,
    0:00:39 and its maximum speed was about 60 miles an hour.
    0:00:43 By the 1960s, just 50 years later,
    0:00:46 passenger jets were flying 10 times as fast as that.
    0:00:50 And that increase in speed transformed the meaning of travel.
    0:00:55 But then, after the 60s, air travel just stopped getting faster.
    0:01:00 A flight today takes about as long as a flight took 60 years ago.
    0:01:04 We’ve gone from a 10x improvement to no improvement at all.
    0:01:06 What happened?
    0:01:14 I’m Jacob Goldstein, and this is What’s Your Problem?
    0:01:18 The show where I talk to people who are trying to make technological progress.
    0:01:23 My guest today is Blake Scholl, the founder and CEO of Boom Supersonic.
    0:01:25 Blake’s problem is this.
    0:01:29 Can you build a commercial airplane that flies faster than the speed of sound,
    0:01:31 and that can turn a profit?
    0:01:35 Blake started the company in 2014.
    0:01:41 Since then, he’s secured pre-orders from Japan Airlines, United, and American Airlines.
    0:01:46 And he and his team built a test plane that flew faster than the speed of sound.
    0:01:52 Now, they’re working on a full-size commercial jet that Blake hopes will fly at Mach 1.7,
    0:01:58 1.7 times the speed of sound, or roughly twice as fast as commercial jets fly today.
    0:02:02 To start, I asked Blake about the Concorde.
    0:02:06 The Concorde, of course, is the only supersonic commercial passenger jet
    0:02:09 ever built, ever flown, with passengers on it.
    0:02:12 But the Concorde stopped flying more than 20 years ago.
    0:02:15 And today, it’s widely viewed as a failure.
    0:02:20 I think Concorde killed supersonic flight, and Apollo killed space exploration.
    0:02:26 And yet, in 1969, we had that first moon landing, and we had that first flight of Concorde.
    0:02:32 And at the time, it looked like both of these were harbingers of huge technological progress
    0:02:32 for humanity.
    0:02:38 And I think if you stopped somebody in the street in 1969 and said, in 2025, what do you
    0:02:40 think space exploration will be like?
    0:02:41 What do you think flight will be like?
    0:02:45 No one would have predicted that supersonic would be gone, and moon landings would be gone.
    0:02:45 Right.
    0:02:47 But that was the peak.
    0:02:48 It wasn’t going to get any better.
    0:02:53 And in fact, in terms of commercial air travel, it was going to get worse.
    0:02:54 Yeah, everything got worse.
    0:02:56 Everything got worse.
    0:03:00 And I think Concorde and Apollo are actually brethren.
    0:03:05 Both were technologically extremely impressive.
    0:03:12 Like, what we did in the 1960s with rockets and airplanes, with slide rolls, drafting paper,
    0:03:16 wind tunnels, is extremely technologically impressive.
    0:03:19 Yet, the motivation is what was killer.
    0:03:27 And both Concorde and Apollo were Cold War-era glory projects led by governments who are competing
    0:03:28 for prestige.
    0:03:30 Basically, to show up the Soviet Union, right?
    0:03:35 To show the superiority of Western capitalism over Soviet communism.
    0:03:39 Yes, except the deep irony is we did it the communist way.
    0:03:39 Right.
    0:03:42 They were command and control projects that made no economic sense.
    0:03:45 They were command and control projects with no economic sense.
    0:03:51 And it turns out, when the West copied, effectively, the communist approach, for a little while,
    0:03:55 we had technological superiority because of, you know, the momentum that we had.
    0:03:57 But then we destroyed ourselves.
    0:04:01 And so, you know, Apollo didn’t even pretend to have anything commercial, right?
    0:04:01 Yeah.
    0:04:04 Like, it was operating on, like, a percentage of GDP.
    0:04:05 Right.
    0:04:10 Which is to say, an incredibly large amount of money relative to the overall economy went
    0:04:13 into getting a very small number of people to the moon a few times.
    0:04:14 That’s right.
    0:04:14 Yeah.
    0:04:19 And, you know, and the knock-on effect of that, you know, for the entire aerospace supply
    0:04:24 chain, it was basically, you know, land on the moon at all costs or at any cost.
    0:04:31 And the result was the entire, you know, space out of the supply chain got drunk on these incredibly
    0:04:34 lucrative contracts where cost was no object, right?
    0:04:36 And then after the Cold War, it only got worse.
    0:04:40 And we put all of the, like, defense industrial base on corporate welfare.
    0:04:42 And they got fat and dumb.
    0:04:43 Yeah.
    0:04:50 And then on the Concorde side, it at least looked better because on paper, this was a commercial
    0:04:53 airplane where people could buy tickets and airlines would buy the airplanes.
    0:04:56 And, you know, the airlines would make money.
    0:04:59 But in reality, it wasn’t that.
    0:05:01 Here’s a hundred-seat airplane.
    0:05:04 By the way, a hundred, like, actually pretty uncomfortable seats.
    0:05:09 And what, you know, ejected for inflation was a $20,000 ticket.
    0:05:14 And you just can’t find a hundred people that want to pay 20 grand to go somewhere really
    0:05:14 fast.
    0:05:16 I mean, this is for royalty and rock stars.
    0:05:23 And especially with, like, 80s and 90s kind of travel demand, the thing flew half empty.
    0:05:28 On the best route in the world, which is New York to London, you know, if you want to find
    0:05:31 people who want to pay a lot of money to go fast, New York to London’s the best city pair
    0:05:31 you could pick.
    0:05:35 And it doesn’t work at all economically beyond that.
    0:05:38 And so, and then the world drew all the wrong conclusions.
    0:05:41 You know, they concluded, like, supersonic flight had to be expensive.
    0:05:44 It had to be cramped and uncomfortable.
    0:05:46 It had to be noisy.
    0:05:47 It had to be uneconomic.
    0:05:54 And it’s like, imagine if we built, like, the Univac, you know, like one of the first mainframe
    0:05:55 computers.
    0:05:57 It was just like the size of the room.
    0:05:59 And you have to be like a bank to afford it.
    0:06:01 And then we stopped.
    0:06:05 And then 50 years later, people would swear up and down that you could never possibly have
    0:06:09 a pocket computer that everyday people could afford.
    0:06:14 But yet, you know, Concord is like the Univac.
    0:06:16 Uh-huh.
    0:06:19 It’s a design from the 1960s, basically.
    0:06:20 That’s right.
    0:06:25 And I say this with, like, deep admiration for the incredible technical work that went
    0:06:25 into it.
    0:06:30 A lot of people worked really hard and did amazing things.
    0:06:33 You know, now that we are, you know, now that at Boom we have, like, built and flown a supersonic
    0:06:39 jet, what we can see is they did really, really well given the tech that was available in the
    0:06:40 1960s.
    0:06:41 It’s extremely impressive.
    0:06:44 You know, like, in Britain and France, people are incredibly proud of Concord.
    0:06:47 And from a technological level, like, they deserve to be.
    0:06:51 So, okay, you were a software developer, right?
    0:06:52 You weren’t a plane guy.
    0:06:54 You weren’t an aerospace engineer.
    0:07:00 But, like, whatever, 12 years ago or something, you got interested in this idea of supersonic
    0:07:03 air travel, of why aren’t there supersonic jets?
    0:07:05 So you have this question in your mind.
    0:07:06 You go try and figure it out.
    0:07:07 What do you find?
    0:07:12 The internet was full of all this conventional wisdom about why flights aren’t faster.
    0:07:14 And you can still find some of these YouTube videos.
    0:07:18 And they say things like, supersonic flight is inherently more expensive.
    0:07:20 Passengers always buy the cheapest ticket.
    0:07:23 So supersonic flight will never be commercially viable.
    0:07:25 And, like, hang on.
    0:07:28 Well, first off, that’s a qualitative claim about a quantitative question.
    0:07:31 And it doesn’t even really completely make sense, right?
    0:07:35 Like, the whole reason we have jet flights is because people wanted to go faster than propeller
    0:07:36 flights.
    0:07:41 The reason people pay more for direct flights than connecting is they want to save time and
    0:07:41 hassle.
    0:07:45 Time is the one resource that’s not ever renewable.
    0:07:49 So the idea that people wouldn’t pay for time savings didn’t completely make sense.
    0:07:49 Sure.
    0:07:54 Plainly, at some margin, some people will pay some amount more to go some amount faster, right?
    0:07:54 Exactly.
    0:07:56 The question is, what are all the margins?
    0:07:56 Yeah.
    0:07:57 Exactly.
    0:07:58 You’re totally right.
    0:08:00 It’s a quantitative question, not a qualitative one.
    0:08:01 Yeah.
    0:08:05 And I think one of the lessons of, I think, the boom story is never accept a qualitative answer
    0:08:06 to a quantitative question.
    0:08:07 Go run the math.
    0:08:07 Yeah.
    0:08:10 So, okay, what is the actual cost of supersonic flight?
    0:08:13 And what is people’s actual willingness to pay to go faster?
    0:08:19 So it turned out it took two weeks to find the key idea, which is, I mean, today there is
    0:08:23 a huge market for international business class.
    0:08:32 It’s roughly 20% of passengers and 80% of international airline profits on business class, which is flying
    0:08:36 beds for people who so hate that flights are long that they want to try and sleep through
    0:08:37 them on the airplane.
    0:08:44 Um, and so that the original boom idea was, well, what if we could make a supersonic seat
    0:08:49 with the economics of a flying bed in business class, but on an airplane sufficiently fast
    0:08:51 that you wouldn’t need to sleep on it, you could sleep at home instead.
    0:08:55 And, uh, and so the first question I asked is, well, how much would you have to beat Concord
    0:09:02 by on just basic airplane efficiency in order to create a seat with the economics of a flying
    0:09:03 bed?
    0:09:05 And the answer was less than 10%.
    0:09:06 Uh-huh.
    0:09:09 So like Concord was almost there by your reckoning.
    0:09:11 Yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s right.
    0:09:20 Um, the, the, if you could improve the gas mileage basically of Concord by less than 10%, um, that
    0:09:24 you would tip over to this happy point where you could have a supersonic seat with the economics
    0:09:25 of a flatbed in business class.
    0:09:32 And instead of being this like stratospheric airplane that like flies mostly empty, uh, a
    0:09:33 whole bunch of modern demand would be there.
    0:09:36 The seats would fill at a high rate and the market would be gigantic.
    0:09:42 Um, and, uh, and so that, that took two weeks and I was like that, well, I don’t know anything
    0:09:42 about airplanes.
    0:09:45 Like all I had at that point was my pilot’s license.
    0:09:49 Uh, but 10% versus 1960s technology didn’t seem crazy.
    0:09:54 Uh, so at the, at that point I was like, okay, if I’m going to go do this, I need to know a
    0:09:55 heck of a lot more.
    0:10:02 And it sort of kicked off what was really a, a 12 month journey for me, uh, getting educated
    0:10:02 in aerospace.
    0:10:07 So when you’re, when you say 10%, I mean, is that sort of a marginal cost calculation?
    0:10:14 Like that, that is that basically setting aside the fixed cost of building the first plane and
    0:10:17 then building, well, building the first plane.
    0:10:21 Like that seems like the big unknown in the math there is how much is it going to cost to
    0:10:22 make plane number one?
    0:10:23 Yeah.
    0:10:25 I mean, so there, there are a few things that matter, right?
    0:10:29 The, uh, the, the, the, the first thing is if we could manage to produce the airplane,
    0:10:33 would it, would it be affordable for passengers and profitable for airlines?
    0:10:33 Yeah.
    0:10:38 That’s kind of the first principles version is like, let’s just look at the physics and like
    0:10:40 things with what we know.
    0:10:45 Is it theoretically possible to build an airplane that can fly enough people from New York to
    0:10:50 London if they pay business class, but sit upright at supersonic speeds?
    0:10:52 Does the first principles math pencil out?
    0:10:53 That’s the math you’re doing there.
    0:10:53 That’s right.
    0:10:59 If, you know, with technology that’s available, is it possible to build an airplane that is
    0:11:01 affordable for passengers and profitable for airlines?
    0:11:03 And it turned out the answer was yes.
    0:11:04 Uh-huh.
    0:11:06 And what is business class New York London?
    0:11:07 What is that?
    0:11:08 Five grand?
    0:11:08 Something like that?
    0:11:09 Yeah.
    0:11:09 Yeah.
    0:11:09 About that.
    0:11:11 I mean, actually people routinely pay more than five grand.
    0:11:16 The economics of our airplane, it turns out 3,500 is breakeven.
    0:11:16 Okay.
    0:11:20 So at five grand, it’s very profitable for airlines and people pay five grand.
    0:11:22 By the way, round trip routinely.
    0:11:23 Yeah.
    0:11:24 Okay.
    0:11:29 So you’ve got the kind of first principles back of the envelope math that looks promising.
    0:11:31 So you started the company.
    0:11:31 Yes.
    0:11:34 And that was what?
    0:11:36 About 10 years ago, right?
    0:11:37 That was…
    0:11:37 Yeah.
    0:11:41 It was about 11 years ago now that I was making that spreadsheet.
    0:11:41 Yeah.
    0:11:47 Um, and, uh, you know, we’ll, we’ll turn, we’ll turn 11 on paper in September because that
    0:11:50 was when I got to the point where, okay, I’m, I’m actually really committed.
    0:11:51 It’s time to go.
    0:12:00 Um, I love that you called it boom, uh, leaning in, like embracing the haters in some, in some
    0:12:00 fashion.
    0:12:03 Um, tell me about the boom.
    0:12:04 Let’s talk about supersonic booms.
    0:12:06 Yeah.
    0:12:11 So my belief from day one was that the boom would not be the blocker.
    0:12:18 And that, that spreadsheet basically said there is a gigantic market for supersonic flight,
    0:12:25 even if the boom is entirely unsolved and you have to fly subsonic over land, um, and supersonic
    0:12:32 over water and focus initially on, on, on routes that were primarily trans oceanic.
    0:12:37 Just to be clear in the U S right now, commercial flights are not allowed to fly supersonic, even
    0:12:40 if there were a plane that could do it by regulation, right?
    0:12:42 Because of the boom, is that the starting point?
    0:12:43 Yeah.
    0:12:47 So that, that’s where we started because the premise was, Hey, it’s pretty ambitious to start
    0:12:51 a brand new company from scratch where your goal is to build a supersonic airliner.
    0:12:55 Let’s let, so let’s not, uh, let’s not push anything too far.
    0:12:59 Let’s operate only with existing technology and only with existing regulations.
    0:13:05 Uh, and that would, that would have some hope of making it tractable for a startup to go
    0:13:05 do.
    0:13:12 So I want to talk a little bit about the last 10 years and building, uh, XB one, your test
    0:13:13 plane.
    0:13:20 Um, and I’m curious in particular, I mean, sort of unsurprisingly, it has taken longer than
    0:13:23 you thought, which it would be shocking if it didn’t write given the nature of the project.
    0:13:28 But I’m curious, like what were some of the things you thought at the, at the jump that
    0:13:29 turned out to be wrong?
    0:13:32 You know, things where you went down the wrong path and had to do something different.
    0:13:33 Yeah.
    0:13:39 So, so when we started out with XB one, we gave it some really, really aggressive, uh, goals.
    0:13:41 Uh, so we wanted to go 10% faster than Concord.
    0:13:43 We wanted to do it with a passenger on board.
    0:13:46 Uh, we wanted to not need an afterburner.
    0:13:51 Like we gave it all these, you know, fairly aggressive goals that were actually well beyond
    0:13:52 what was really necessary.
    0:13:58 Uh, but we thought we didn’t appreciate all of the challenges that would, would come with
    0:13:58 that.
    0:14:01 And so we actually made the job a lot harder than it needed to be.
    0:14:08 And, and the, the biggest thing that we learned on XB one in this context is, is pragmatism.
    0:14:11 Like it doesn’t need to go Mach 2.2.
    0:14:17 Mach 1.7 is a totally fine minimum viable supersonic jet and it’s dramatically easier.
    0:14:22 So, so part of what we learned from XB one is how to make the Overture airliner a lot easier
    0:14:23 to do.
    0:14:29 And it was things like, if you want to go Mach 2.2, the wings have to be really skinny.
    0:14:35 And if the wings are really skinny, it’s very hard to fly takeoff and landing.
    0:14:41 And so we ended up spending two years on low speed aerodynamics for takeoff and landing,
    0:14:46 uh, with a, with a wing that was really designed to go super, super fast.
    0:14:51 And, and then with a long skinny airplane to go Mach 2.2, it’s really hard to fit the
    0:14:52 landing gear in.
    0:14:58 And so we ended up, I remember in like 2019 when we’re like finishing the design of this
    0:15:01 thing and kind of in the process of building it is like, wait a minute, how did we end
    0:15:06 up in a corner of the universe where we have to design the most efficient shock absorber ever
    0:15:06 made?
    0:15:11 Like that was a bizarre, like, and we literally, we had to design the most efficient shock absorber
    0:15:12 ever made for a landing gear.
    0:15:13 Why?
    0:15:18 Well, we, we given ourselves this like unnecessarily challenging top speed goal, which made the
    0:15:23 airplane log and skinny, which made the landing gear need to fit in a very tight space, which
    0:15:25 meant the shock absorbers had to be really, really good.
    0:15:30 Well, why had you, I mean, it’s easy from this point of view to say like, why it was foolish
    0:15:32 to try and go so fast, which is sort of what you’re saying.
    0:15:37 But presumably when you picked that speed, you picked it for a reason.
    0:15:38 Why’d you pick that speed?
    0:15:38 Yeah.
    0:15:43 Well, we, uh, there, there was sort of a scientific reason and then there was probably an emotional
    0:15:44 reason.
    0:15:49 And the, the, the scientific reason was we thought we were on the happy side of a lot
    0:15:53 of market opportunity and on the happy side of the step changes in technological challenge,
    0:15:56 uh, based on, based on what we knew from textbooks.
    0:16:00 The market opportunity means the faster you go, the bigger the market.
    0:16:01 I mean, is that the market opportunity?
    0:16:02 That’s right.
    0:16:06 Like if, you know, if you, if you speed a flight up, I’ll pick an extreme example.
    0:16:08 Let’s, let’s say you speed up New York, London by like half an hour.
    0:16:09 Yeah.
    0:16:10 You actually make the flight worse.
    0:16:12 It’s still going to be scheduled as a red eye.
    0:16:13 Right.
    0:16:14 But you don’t get as much sleep.
    0:16:15 That’s right.
    0:16:17 So it’s actually, it’s actually worse.
    0:16:23 And then presumably if you can go fast enough, you can like fly the same crew to London and
    0:16:26 back without having to change the crew and your economics get better or something.
    0:16:26 Bingo.
    0:16:28 That’s one of the ways the economics in this work.
    0:16:32 When you go faster, lots of things actually get cheaper.
    0:16:33 You need less crews.
    0:16:36 You don’t, you don’t spend money putting people up in Marriott.
    0:16:38 Like the, we call that the speed dividend.
    0:16:40 There’s a lot of cost that comes down with speed.
    0:16:45 Basically the cost, the benefits of going 2.2 are the same, but the cost of the marginal
    0:16:48 cost of going that much faster was higher than you thought.
    0:16:49 That’s, that’s right.
    0:16:54 Like in fuel burn, you know, once we committed to meeting, um, the same most stringent noise
    0:16:58 rules that apply to subsonic airplanes that, that actually puts a big penalty on high speed.
    0:17:04 Uh, and we found that at Mach 2.2, we would be burning 40% more fuel than at 1.7.
    0:17:09 And yet the, and what that meant in flight times was actually just a 15 minute difference.
    0:17:11 So it made no sense.
    0:17:12 And we got more pragmatic.
    0:17:16 Um, and the, and the other thing that, you know, it was the kind of the emotional piece
    0:17:21 of this was, you know, I sort of booted up, you know, pounding my fist on the table and
    0:17:24 saying 50 years later, we should do better than Concord.
    0:17:27 So we should be faster and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and all these other things.
    0:17:30 And the, the reality was that wasn’t actually necessary.
    0:17:35 What we needed was a pragmatic starting point that we could then continue to iterate and
    0:17:39 innovate, you know, and, and overture is not the be all end all of supersonic airplanes.
    0:17:44 It’s the version one and we can do a version 1.1 and we can do a version two.
    0:17:53 And the thing that matters is, um, uh, ensure, ensuring that version one is sufficiently pragmatic
    0:17:54 that we can, we can birth it.
    0:17:55 Yeah.
    0:17:58 So how fast did Concord go?
    0:18:03 Uh, 2.0, actually 2.2, 2.02 actually is the precise number.
    0:18:08 And you’ve, you’ve made your peace with building a, a first plane that goes slower than the
    0:18:08 Concord.
    0:18:10 Uh, I don’t know.
    0:18:12 We’ve, I guess officially we’ve made our peace with it.
    0:18:14 Um, not in your heart on the spreadsheet.
    0:18:16 Not, not, not, not, not in my heart.
    0:18:20 Like, cause you know, Mach 1.7 just doesn’t roll off the tongue like Mach 2.
    0:18:22 No, Mach 2 sounds way cooler.
    0:18:25 Mach 2 sounds way cooler, you know, and for a while, my license tag.
    0:18:27 Mach 2.2.
    0:18:32 And I, I, I learned that I should really never put a technical design parameter on a vanity
    0:18:32 plate.
    0:18:35 That was a, that was a, that was a bad decision because it made it hard.
    0:18:37 It made it harder for me to admit the difficult truth.
    0:18:42 When every day, when you went out and saw your car, you were getting mocked by your failure
    0:18:43 in relative.
    0:18:43 Yeah.
    0:18:45 M-A-C-H-E-D.
    0:18:45 Yes.
    0:18:47 Oh, very good.
    0:18:48 Very good.
    0:18:50 That should be your new vanity plate to keep you humble.
    0:18:56 No, now it just says supersonic because so long as I bust Mach 1, I’m good.
    0:19:04 Still to come on the show, how much more time and money will it take to build a supersonic
    0:19:07 plane that can carry paying passengers?
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    0:19:51 So you’re building the airliner.
    0:19:54 You’re also sort of building the jets, right?
    0:19:58 I know you were working with Rolls-Royce, which makes a lot of jets for airplanes now.
    0:20:01 And then you stopped working with Rolls-Royce.
    0:20:06 Tell me about what you’ve got to do.
    0:20:10 Like, what’s the next big step in terms of the airplane, the jets?
    0:20:12 Like, what do you got to do next?
    0:20:13 And when do you let it go?
    0:20:13 Yeah.
    0:20:15 So step one, scale up those jet engines.
    0:20:17 Step two, scale up the airplanes.
    0:20:19 Step three, put it all together.
    0:20:24 Prove to ourselves and to our regulator and the public that
    0:20:26 it’s safe and then go carry passengers.
    0:20:30 And so you mentioned the whole jet engine thing.
    0:20:31 Yeah.
    0:20:37 We actually, when I started, our plan was to go build our own jet engines, just the same
    0:20:39 way SpaceX builds their own engines.
    0:20:42 And then we got distracted.
    0:20:47 I let us get distracted by this sort of sexy notion that we’d be able to take a Rolls-Royce
    0:20:50 engine and just modify it, working with Rolls-Royce.
    0:20:53 And that turned out to be just a terrible idea.
    0:20:58 Most companies that build airplanes don’t build their own jets, right?
    0:21:02 It’s not a crazy idea to say, we’re going to build airplanes and we’re going to let people
    0:21:04 who are really good at building jets build the jets.
    0:21:05 Yeah.
    0:21:11 So if you look back far enough in time, it turned out Boeing, United Airlines, and Pratt & Whitney,
    0:21:14 the jet engine company, were actually all the same company.
    0:21:21 They were vertically integrated from the airline through to the jet engine, or I guess back then
    0:21:23 it wasn’t jet engines, it was piston engines.
    0:21:26 But I think that was actually the natural state of the industry.
    0:21:30 And they got broken apart, not because they wanted to, but there was an airmail scandal in
    0:21:33 the early 1930s, the outcome of which was the government split them up.
    0:21:34 Oh, interesting.
    0:21:36 An airmail scandal.
    0:21:38 You don’t hear about so many airmail scandals anymore.
    0:21:43 There was the airmail scandal of 1932, where what was going on was, basically the U.S.
    0:21:48 government was subsidizing airmail because they wanted to get off the ground.
    0:21:48 Yeah.
    0:21:49 So to speak.
    0:21:50 Yeah.
    0:21:58 And so the retail price of airmail was less than the airlines were getting paid.
    0:21:59 Yeah.
    0:22:03 And so the airlines found they could make more money by going to the post office and mailing
    0:22:03 bricks.
    0:22:05 Oh, I love that.
    0:22:06 That’s genius.
    0:22:09 And so the, you know, and the postmaster general was corrupt.
    0:22:11 Like, everybody was on the take.
    0:22:12 It was nasty.
    0:22:15 And then the industry, you know, everybody was kind of at fault here, and the industry took
    0:22:16 the blame.
    0:22:16 Yeah.
    0:22:22 And you’re telling us why companies that make jets are different than the companies that
    0:22:23 make the airplanes they go on?
    0:22:24 That’s right.
    0:22:25 It’s a bold claim.
    0:22:25 Yeah.
    0:22:26 Well, yeah.
    0:22:31 And I think there is, you know, industries tend to go through cycles where vertical integration
    0:22:34 is either a good strategy or a bad strategy.
    0:22:39 And there’s a great book on this called The Innovator’s Solution, where they talk about under
    0:22:43 what circumstances vertical integration is smart versus working with suppliers.
    0:22:44 What was it?
    0:22:46 Jim Barksdale’s line in the 90s?
    0:22:49 There’s two businesses, bundling and unbundling.
    0:22:50 It’s like that.
    0:22:53 I hadn’t heard that, but I think it’s kind of true, and it’s contextual.
    0:22:53 Yeah.
    0:23:02 And long story short, when the current state-of-the-art technology is good enough for the end purpose,
    0:23:07 the unbundling and not vertical integration tends to make sense.
    0:23:12 When the components need to advance and the integration in the final product is important,
    0:23:14 then vertical integration really matters.
    0:23:16 And so I think there are kind of two threads to the story.
    0:23:21 One is, it’s probably not a good idea for a brand-new startup to put all of its eggs in
    0:23:26 the basket of a, like, hundred-year-old company that, like, is risk-averse, doesn’t want to
    0:23:32 make changes, isn’t fast-moving, maybe, you know, isn’t sure what it really wants to be.
    0:23:32 Right.
    0:23:37 So you’re putting all of your eggs in your own basket, which is strong, certainly.
    0:23:45 So what, like, what’s the next milepost you’ve got to hit?
    0:23:47 Like, what’s the big, big next hurdle?
    0:23:51 We’ll find out around the end of this year whether our jet engine’s working.
    0:23:54 We’re building the first one right now, and we’ll see if it works.
    0:23:59 And so this will be a very, very large jet engine core.
    0:24:01 You know, like, it’ll be roughly four feet in diameter.
    0:24:06 This is not a small piece of hardware, you know, it’ll weigh well over 10,000 pounds.
    0:24:08 This is a very complex piece of turbo machinery.
    0:24:12 And we’ll fire it up, and we’ll see what’s working.
    0:24:15 And then next year, so that’s the core of the engine.
    0:24:20 And a year later, our goal is to have a, you know, a full-up engine, not just the core,
    0:24:24 but the fan and what’s called the low-pressure system as well.
    0:24:27 But the core is actually the really hard part.
    0:24:28 So we’re starting with the hardest part.
    0:24:34 And then in parallel, you’re building the plane or designing the plane?
    0:24:36 Yeah, we’re actually done designing the plane.
    0:24:36 Okay.
    0:24:45 So we froze the design of the Overture, I think, a week after XB-1’s final flight.
    0:24:45 Okay.
    0:24:49 And so that means, you know, I proverbially broke the engineer’s pencils.
    0:24:54 So just now, just in the last several weeks, you froze the design of the plane.
    0:24:55 You said, this is it.
    0:24:56 This is the plane we’re going to build.
    0:24:57 This is it.
    0:24:57 This is it, right?
    0:25:02 You know, like, it’s very easy for ambitious engineers to want to optimize forever.
    0:25:03 Sure.
    0:25:05 And we said, this is good enough for version one.
    0:25:13 It’s time to stop tweaking the design and start doing the detailed engineering so we can start building this thing.
    0:25:15 Tell me about what it’s going to look like.
    0:25:22 So supersonic jets are in some ways sculpted by physics.
    0:25:23 They’re going to be long and skinny.
    0:25:26 They’re going to have a triangular kind of delta wing.
    0:25:33 So in a certain sense, Overture is going to need to look Concord-like because physics says it needs to look Concord-like.
    0:25:37 But the details are, the details that come so far forward.
    0:25:48 One of the big aerodynamic advances versus Concord is something called area ruling, which basically says the fuselage needs to be big in the front and small in the back.
    0:25:54 And so Overture looks, it looks a little bit like a Concord in a 747 had a love child.
    0:25:55 Okay.
    0:26:00 So it’s not literally double deck in the front, but it’s bigger in the front and skinnier in the back.
    0:26:04 And this leads for a very interesting canvas.
    0:26:14 And I can’t tell you yet what exactly it’s like at the front of the airplane because we’ve got something we invented that I’m incredibly excited about that we haven’t revealed yet.
    0:26:18 But I think it’s going to be, I think it’s going to be a big wow factor.
    0:26:22 People will look at them and say, wait a minute, you got that to fit in a skinny supersonic check?
    0:26:23 An elephant.
    0:26:24 What is it?
    0:26:33 It is something that will be delightful for passengers.
    0:26:34 A waterfall.
    0:26:37 I’ll stop guessing, but I’m curious.
    0:26:43 I’ll tell you right now, it’s not a hot tub.
    0:26:43 Okay.
    0:26:46 Cold plunge.
    0:26:48 Cold plunge is the new hot tub.
    0:26:50 That’s right.
    0:26:54 There’s a cold plunge in the front of the airplane and the hot tub in the back of the airplane.
    0:26:55 You can actually have both.
    0:27:10 What do you got to do to get through the very non-trivial regulatory hurdles to get from drawing up a plane to a plane that the FAA and analogous regulators say, yes, this can fly with commercial passengers?
    0:27:12 Well, we just have to prove it’s safe.
    0:27:15 I mean, there’s a lot in that just, right?
    0:27:17 There’s a lot in that just.
    0:27:20 I mean, this will be one of the most complex safety critical machines ever built.
    0:27:24 But all of the rules are published.
    0:27:26 So we know exactly what we have to go do.
    0:27:30 And the certification is just proving that we did it.
    0:27:39 And so that will involve about 5,000 hours of flight testing and many more hours of ground testing.
    0:27:50 And so just to give you a concrete sense of what this is like, on the ground, we will build a kind of a flightless bird, a copy of the airplane that will never fly.
    0:27:59 And we’ll load up the wings with hydraulic presses and will bend them until they break and will make sure that they don’t break before they’re supposed to.
    0:28:10 Basically, you have to prove that they can take 1.5 times the load they will ever see under the most extreme case before failing.
    0:28:12 You know, that’s one example you do on the ground.
    0:28:15 And then the air, you fly it through all the most extreme flight conditions.
    0:28:18 You make sure it can handle bad weather.
    0:28:24 You can make sure that when it flies through, you know, a snowstorm, the de-icing can keep up with the icing.
    0:28:37 You shoot a chicken at the jet engines and make sure that if you get a bird strike, that either the engine doesn’t fail or it fails in a non-catastrophic way.
    0:28:40 That’s actually one of the most difficult tests.
    0:28:43 So, okay, so you got to do all these things.
    0:28:47 What is your current target date for when I can buy a ticket?
    0:28:48 About four years.
    0:28:52 So our goal is to be ready for passengers by the end of 2029.
    0:28:57 So about four and a half to five years from where we are today.
    0:29:03 Like, flying XB1 took longer than you thought, but you’re still assuming overture is not going to take longer than you thought.
    0:29:05 Setting them in parallel.
    0:29:08 I mean, it’s totally possible overture will be late.
    0:29:09 Yeah.
    0:29:11 I mean, the way these things go, it seems likely.
    0:29:17 Again, this is from ignorance, just looking at the nature of projects in many different companies in many different settings.
    0:29:19 Like, plainly, what you’re trying to do is very hard.
    0:29:24 And plainly, you’re only doing it because you have some amount of optimism, which is required to do the job, right?
    0:29:31 And so just from that very small amount of data, I infer, like, yeah, I mean, you’re probably not going to overestimate how long it will take.
    0:29:33 Yes, yeah.
    0:29:36 It is highly unlikely we will get done sooner than we’re targeting.
    0:29:37 You’re not going to be done early, right?
    0:29:38 Yes.
    0:29:45 But one of the lessons I’ve learned along the way is kind of how to think about schedules.
    0:29:52 And I think schedules are actually misnamed because nothing ever goes according to plan.
    0:29:52 Right.
    0:29:54 And it’s not a schedule.
    0:29:55 It’s actually a work plan.
    0:30:05 And the point of the work plan is to allow the team to respond intelligently the moment something doesn’t go according to plan, which is basically every day.
    0:30:06 Yeah, yeah.
    0:30:16 And so what we do is we build what’s called a success-based schedule, meaning we don’t pad it to assume that there’s going to be failures.
    0:30:27 We kind of assume everything is going to go well, and we assume that we’ll be able to do things, you know, slightly more efficiently than, you know, than like a Boeing would.
    0:30:29 And so there’s some optimism built into it.
    0:30:29 Yeah.
    0:30:32 And many times we realize that optimism.
    0:30:32 Yeah.
    0:30:40 And when we find, oops, there’s something we didn’t know about, or this was harder than we expected, then we react to it in the most efficient way possible.
    0:30:45 And that’s what actually results in the fastest possible delivery.
    0:30:50 Because nothing ever gets done faster than the amount of time you give it.
    0:30:50 Right.
    0:30:53 But we’ll just take all the time they’re allowed.
    0:30:53 That’s right.
    0:30:55 Because they want to do the best job possible.
    0:30:55 Exactly.
    0:31:01 And the kind of people who come join a supertonic jet startup are incredibly ambitious and have very, very high standards.
    0:31:05 So, you know, if I didn’t say the design is frozen.
    0:31:07 It’s a hard trade-off, right?
    0:31:11 It’s a hard trade-off because, like, there’s a million hard optimization problems that people are working on.
    0:31:15 And there’s the kind of meta-optimization problem of how long do you spend on each thing.
    0:31:16 That’s right.
    0:31:17 That’s right.
    0:31:19 And there’s, like, you know, when do you declare good enough?
    0:31:19 Yeah.
    0:31:20 Right?
    0:31:30 And that was, I mean, there are so many stories of, you know, really, I think part of my role is help the team decide when’s good enough.
    0:31:37 And, you know, what things have to be in 1.0 versus what things we can save for 1.1.
    0:31:37 Right.
    0:31:43 And having good judgment about that makes it much easier to actually ship 1.0.
    0:31:44 Right.
    0:31:48 You don’t need to build the most perfect supersonic jet ever.
    0:31:50 You just need to build one that is safe and reliable.
    0:31:52 That’s right.
    0:31:55 So, let’s talk about money.
    0:32:03 How much have you raised and how much do you need to get the first 1.0 overture flying with passengers?
    0:32:10 So, a thing I’ve come to believe is that one of the most important things in pulling this off is being incredibly efficient with capital.
    0:32:13 We’ve raised about $600 million.
    0:32:17 We’ve spent less than $500 million.
    0:32:23 And with that, we built and flew a supersonic jet with a human on board.
    0:32:24 We designed an airliner.
    0:32:26 We designed an engine.
    0:32:28 And we did all the other things that started to pass to do over a decade.
    0:32:31 So, what does that mean going forward?
    0:32:36 We need less than a billion dollars of investor funding from where we are now to finish.
    0:32:42 So, when you say investor funding, like, are you assuming more pre-orders?
    0:32:46 Or you think for less than a billion dollars, you can actually, or less than a billion dollars more,
    0:32:52 you can actually build a plane that’s going to take passengers across the ocean?
    0:32:53 Yeah.
    0:32:55 Part of it is being very smart with capital leverage.
    0:33:02 You know, so, for example, you know, we will be able to go use debt to buy capital equipment.
    0:33:03 Right?
    0:33:09 So, like, a lot of production equipment will be financed without requiring, you know, equity investment from investors.
    0:33:10 Uh-huh.
    0:33:12 And we’ve already been able to do some of that.
    0:33:13 So, there’s a lot.
    0:33:16 Smart financial engineering is part of the solution.
    0:33:20 The other part of the solution is being incredibly efficient in execution.
    0:33:23 You know, I still tell, by the way, this is, in some ways, the most difficult thing.
    0:33:26 Spending the money intelligently, basically?
    0:33:27 Yeah.
    0:33:35 Well, the way I frame it for our team internally, and we’re just very open about this, I say our single biggest risk as a company is we don’t get done for an obtainable amount of money.
    0:33:36 Yeah.
    0:33:41 Well, because the physics, we’ve known the physics for, whatever, 50 years or more, right?
    0:33:48 Like, plainly, one can build a supersonic jet, but building it cheaply enough, in your case, to survive, right?
    0:33:53 And then, in the long run, to have it be commercially viable is the hard part, right?
    0:33:56 Yeah, so, one half of this is, how do we execute really efficiently?
    0:34:03 How do we have a small team of world-class engineers with incredibly good software tools?
    0:34:09 And we’re using a lot of software, and we’re using some AI, such that one engineer can do the work of 10.
    0:34:16 And that allows us to be really efficient with our money, and we are just absolutely miserably about money, on one hand.
    0:34:33 On the other hand, we need to have a capital structure that’s very good for investors, and that leverages non-dilutive financing sources, be it customer prepayments, or plant and equipment debt, or public support, to kind of lever up those investor dollars to make the whole thing economically viable.
    0:34:35 What’s public support mean?
    0:34:55 So, we had a fantastic package that we got from the state of North Carolina that funded the super factory in Greensboro, where the state of North Carolina so wanted them to come and build the airplane there, that just as they welcomed the Wright brothers 100 years ago, they welcomed us.
    0:35:02 And that basically paid for the entire site prep and build out of the super factory.
    0:35:09 And we were incredibly grateful for that, and I want to make sure we pay it forward in North Carolina.
    0:35:21 I’ve heard you say on an interview you did in the last year or so that you underestimated how hard it was going to be to build the company, to build the supersonic jet.
    0:35:31 And I’m curious, if you look forward now to going from here to, you know, having passengers on a jet, do you think you’re underestimating how hard that’s going to be?
    0:35:35 I am sure there are problems that we will have that I don’t know about today.
    0:35:36 Yeah.
    0:35:42 That’s a different—I mean, it’s a weird question, because if you’re underestimating it, then you would revise your estimation.
    0:35:44 It’s like, why is the stock market wrong?
    0:35:46 But, like, I don’t know.
    0:35:49 I mean, maybe you have to underestimate it.
    0:35:50 Like, I don’t know.
    0:35:52 You know, people always say, if I knew how hard it was going to be, I wouldn’t have done it.
    0:35:54 And I don’t know if they really mean that, but—
    0:35:57 I think some people mean it, and I find that really sad.
    0:36:02 And I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way.
    0:36:06 I mean, like, actually, like, boy, like, this startup stuff is so hard.
    0:36:11 And it just kills me that someone would put in all of the effort required to birth a new company and a new product from scratch.
    0:36:13 And it is really hard.
    0:36:14 It’s like chewing on glass.
    0:36:18 And then to do it for somebody, they’re like, wow, I wish I hadn’t.
    0:36:20 Like, that is really sad.
    0:36:25 And by the way, I have my chewing on glass days for sure, and I’m sure I’ll have more.
    0:36:30 And the worst of it is when I look in the mirror, and I’m not sure whether I’m up for the job.
    0:36:35 I mean, I think, like, boy, someone better than me could have done this, but I don’t know if I can.
    0:36:41 You know, or I look at a problem we have, and it’s not, you know, and it’s very much my responsibility and my error.
    0:36:43 Like, those are the hardest days.
    0:36:56 And yet, I care so darn much about this that it’s worth that personal hell to give it everything I’ve got.
    0:36:58 And I don’t regret it.
    0:37:01 Even the days where I’m like, boy, I don’t know whether we’re going to get through this.
    0:37:06 And we’ve had a bunch of those days, and I think I’d be foolish to think that we won’t have them again.
    0:37:11 Why is supersonic flight your thing?
    0:37:14 Like, why is that what you have devoted your professional life to?
    0:37:24 And one of the principles I have for myself now is I only want to work on things that might not happen if I didn’t work on them.
    0:37:29 And if the world followed that, we’d have a lot less photo sharing apps and fewer AI companies, but maybe things like traffic would be solved.
    0:37:39 And, you know, for me specifically with supersonic flight, my kids had a grandfather who lived in Hong Kong, you know, 18 hours from us in Denver,
    0:37:42 that they got to meet maybe three or four times their entire life.
    0:37:44 And so they never got to know him.
    0:37:51 And I grew up with my grandfather 90 minutes away, and I got to spend every weekend with him, and I’m a different person because of that.
    0:37:58 And so I’ve had a lot of personal experiences that basically say, hey, speed’s not about saving time or being really cool.
    0:38:01 Although it is about saving time and being really cool.
    0:38:03 Speed is about what you choose to do or not do.
    0:38:10 And there are all kinds of things in the world that don’t happen because flights are too long.
    0:38:16 We’ll be back in a minute with the lightning round.
    0:38:26 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
    0:38:27 Think again.
    0:38:32 More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
    0:38:36 And as the number one podcaster, iHeart’s twice as large as the next two combined.
    0:38:39 So whatever your customers listen to, they’ll hear your message.
    0:38:43 Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.
    0:38:45 Think podcasting can help your business?
    0:38:46 Think iHeart.
    0:38:48 Streaming, radio, and podcasting.
    0:38:51 Call 844-844-IHEART to get started.
    0:38:54 That’s 844-844-IHEART.
    0:38:58 Okay, let’s finish with the lightning round.
    0:39:03 And then before you started the company, you made a list of things you wanted to work on
    0:39:07 and you sort of rank ordered them and how happy it would make you to work on them.
    0:39:09 Obviously, Supersonic Jet was one.
    0:39:10 But what was two?
    0:39:14 It fell off really quickly.
    0:39:16 But what was the distant second?
    0:39:19 Like, I had a rental car company idea.
    0:39:19 Huh.
    0:39:25 That would be like a, like, your rental car picks you up like an Uber, then you get in
    0:39:26 and drive it.
    0:39:28 Like, it’s not, like, I would love that product.
    0:39:30 I don’t think it’s a great business idea.
    0:39:33 Uh, what was the scariest part of getting your pilot’s license?
    0:39:39 Oh, I remember that very first moment of takeoff in what turned out to be Larry Ellison’s
    0:39:40 old airplane.
    0:39:46 Um, and there was this moment of like, holy crap, I’m scared because I got my life in my
    0:39:47 own hands.
    0:39:47 Yeah.
    0:39:49 It’s like when you learn to drive a car.
    0:39:50 I remember that when I learned to drive a car.
    0:39:53 It’s like, I could just swerve into the oncoming lane right now.
    0:39:53 Right.
    0:39:55 It felt really fragile.
    0:39:56 Like, I’ve got my life in my own hands.
    0:40:01 But then there was the other side of that same coin, which is, this is really cool.
    0:40:03 I’ve got my life in my own hands.
    0:40:03 Uh-huh.
    0:40:07 What was the scariest part of working with Jeff Bezos?
    0:40:11 Uh, Jeff was great to work with.
    0:40:15 And I was incredibly privileged in my early twenties that I got to work on something he
    0:40:15 cared about.
    0:40:16 Uh-huh.
    0:40:22 Uh, and Jeff, um, one of, one of the, one of the best things about Jeff is he very fairly
    0:40:23 calls the balls from the strikes.
    0:40:30 And he, um, and he rewards honesty and accountability.
    0:40:35 So I remember at one point, um, this was actually my very first time presenting to him and if
    0:40:39 the presentation’s overall going well, um, this is before he banned PowerPoint and I get
    0:40:41 to some slide and he says, well, why didn’t you do X?
    0:40:46 And, uh, X was actually a pretty good idea.
    0:40:46 Yeah.
    0:40:49 And, and I said, well, we didn’t think of that.
    0:40:54 And, and, and he starts laughing that like famous big Jeff Bezos laugh.
    0:40:54 Yeah.
    0:40:56 And he says, that’s a great answer.
    0:40:58 It’s true all the time, but no one will ever say it.
    0:41:02 He understands that anybody sufficiently ambitious is going to make mistakes.
    0:41:04 And what matters is to own them and learn from them.
    0:41:06 And he always rewarded that.
    0:41:10 And that’s, that’s something I try to emulate myself as a, as a leader.
    0:41:11 Okay.
    0:41:17 Briefly, let’s do a few overrated or underrated questions for jet travel.
    0:41:20 Um, checking luggage, overrated or underrated?
    0:41:21 Underrated.
    0:41:25 The, the way this should work is you take your Uber to the airport.
    0:41:27 Someone grabs your bag from the trunk.
    0:41:30 You go through the airport only with what you actually want with you on the airplane.
    0:41:34 When you arrive on the other side, you go to your Uber and your check bag is already in
    0:41:35 your trunk.
    0:41:38 That’s a, that’s a compelling dream.
    0:41:40 Overrated or underrated the window seat?
    0:41:44 It, it, it, I think it’s highly rated and underrated.
    0:41:46 Like I, I am glued to that window.
    0:41:48 I love highly rated, but still underrated things.
    0:41:53 So I feel about Bob Dylan, um, neck pillows, overrated or underrated?
    0:41:55 It’s not for me under, uh, overrated.
    0:41:56 Same.
    0:42:05 Blake Schoel is the founder and CEO of Boom Supersonic.
    0:42:08 Today’s show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang.
    0:42:13 It was edited by Lydia Jean Cott and engineered by Sarah Brugier.
    0:42:17 You can email us at problem at pushkin.fm.
    0:42:21 I’m Jacob Goldstein, and we’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?
    0:42:30 We’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?
    0:42:31 We’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?
    0:42:31 We’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?
    0:42:31 We’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?
    0:42:32 We’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?
    0:42:32 We’ll be back next week with another episode of What’s Your Problem?

    Blake Scholl is the founder and CEO of Boom Supersonic. Blake’s problem is this: Can you build a commercial airplane that flies faster than the speed of sound – and that makes economic sense?

    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

  • #806: How Rich Barton Built Expedia and Zillow from $0 to $35B — Audacious Goals, Provocation Marketing, Scrabble for Naming, and Powerful Daily Rituals

    AI transcript
    0:00:04 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of
    0:00:08 The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers,
    0:00:13 people who are arguably the best at what they do. How do they do it? What are their influences,
    0:00:19 favorite books, frameworks, lessons learned, things that you can apply to your own life?
    0:00:25 And I have someone you may not have heard speak before on the podcast today, Rich Barton,
    0:00:30 a close friend of Chris Saka and some other guests we’ve had. He is the co-founder and
    0:00:35 co-executive chairman of Zillow, a company transforming how people buy, sell, rent,
    0:00:41 and finance homes. Before Zillow, Rich founded Expedia within Microsoft in 1994 and successfully
    0:00:48 spun the company off as a public company in 1999. He served as president, CEO, and board director of
    0:00:53 Expedia, and later co-founded and served as non-executive chairman of Glassdoor. He has done
    0:01:01 so many different companies and he has a lot of stories from the trenches, a lot that you can use
    0:01:08 that is tactical and practical. He’s also super fit, super active. I would say a great father and
    0:01:14 husband. He is an incredible human being, sort of full stack. And that’s part of the reason I really
    0:01:20 wanted to have him on the show. We did it in person. We covered a lot of ground and I think you’re going
    0:01:25 to enjoy it. I loved it. So with just a few words from the people who make this podcast possible,
    0:01:31 we’ll get straight to the meat and potatoes and a wide-ranging conversation with none other than
    0:01:37 Rich Barton. My first book, The 4-Hour Workweek, which made everything else possible, is built around
    0:01:44 the acronym and framework DEAL, D-E-A-L, define, eliminate, automate, and liberate. Now, of course,
    0:01:49 after you define all the things you want, your metrics, 80-20, blah, blah, blah, then you want
    0:01:54 to get rid of as much as possible, eliminate. But sometimes there are things that are a huge hassle,
    0:01:59 like expense management for a lot of companies, which you can’t get rid of. They are essential
    0:02:05 to your business. But today, thank God, you can automate it. And there is no better way to do that
    0:02:11 than with today’s sponsor, Ramp. Ramp is a free corporate card that automates away your entire expense
    0:02:17 process. They are incredibly fast-growing and incredibly well-reviewed for good reasons.
    0:02:23 The moment your team makes a purchase, Ramp handles everything. Receipt matching, categorization,
    0:02:29 approval, the whole works. Switching to Ramp is like hiring a full-time employee just for expense
    0:02:34 management. And Ramp makes it easy to migrate from your current corporate card with their complimentary
    0:02:40 white-glove onboarding service for new members. More than 25,000 businesses trust Ramp,
    0:02:45 including my good friends at Shopify and the Boys and Girls Club of America, which is why they were
    0:02:50 just named number one in spend management by G2. And now, for a limited time, you guys,
    0:02:58 listeners of The Tim Ferriss Show, can get $250 when you join Ramp. Just go to ramp.com slash Tim.
    0:03:06 That’s R-A-M-P dot com slash Tim. Cards issued by Sutton Bank. Member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.
    0:03:12 Listeners have heard me talk about making before you manage for years. All that means to me is that
    0:03:16 when I wake up, I block out three to four hours to do the most important things that are generative,
    0:03:23 creative, podcasting, writing, et cetera, before I get to the email and the admin stuff and the reactive
    0:03:29 stuff and everyone else’s agenda for my time. For me, let’s just say I’m a writer and entrepreneur.
    0:03:35 I need to focus on the making to be happy. If I get sucked into all the little bits and pieces
    0:03:42 that are constantly churning, I end up feeling stressed out. And that is why today’s sponsor
    0:03:47 is so interesting. It’s been one of the greatest energetic unlocks in the last few years.
    0:03:52 So here we go. I need to find people who are great at managing. And that is where Cresset
    0:03:58 Family Office comes in. You spell it C-R-E-S-S-E-T. Cresset Family Office. I was introduced to them
    0:04:04 by one of the top CPG investors in the world. Cresset is a prestigious family office for CEOs,
    0:04:10 founders, and entrepreneurs. They handle the complex financial planning, uncertain tax strategies,
    0:04:17 timely exit planning, bill pay, wires, all the dozens of other parts of wealth management and
    0:04:22 just financial management that would otherwise pull me away from doing what I love most, making
    0:04:27 things, mastering skills, spending time with the people I care about. And over many years,
    0:04:31 I was getting pulled away from that stuff, at least a few days a week, and I’ve completely
    0:04:36 eliminated that. So experience the freedom of focusing on what matters to you with the support
    0:04:42 of a top wealth management team. You can schedule a call today at cressetcapital.com slash Tim.
    0:04:49 That’s spelled C-R-E-S-S-E-T, cressetcapital.com slash Tim, to see how Cresset can help streamline
    0:04:55 your financial plans and grow your wealth. That’s cressetcapital.com slash Tim. And disclosure,
    0:05:00 I am a client of Cresset. There are no material conflicts other than this paid testimonial. And of
    0:05:05 course, all investing involves risk, including loss of principle. So do your due diligence.
    0:05:11 optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start
    0:05:17 shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now would’ve seen a perfect time. What if I did
    0:05:21 the opposite? I’m a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
    0:05:25 The Tim Ferriss Show.
    0:05:35 I know ADQ a little bit. He’s a friend. And there was a point at which, you know, I like
    0:05:41 to observe magic product things. And of course, Apple has tons. But my typical morning news setup
    0:05:47 is I’m kind of doing my email and sifting through things while I drink my coffee. And I’ve got
    0:05:55 my iPad set up next to it, rolling, you know, CNBC quietly on mute. And at one point, a couple
    0:06:01 years ago, I moused off the left edge of the screen and it seamlessly went onto the, and
    0:06:05 all of a sudden my mouse is on the iPad. And I was like, oh my God, it just decided because
    0:06:08 it was the same guy logged in. It’s an extended monitor.
    0:06:09 Yeah.
    0:06:11 And I texted him immediately. I’m like, oh, Eddie.
    0:06:21 Why do you have CNBC playing concurrently? Is that just old habits die hard? Or is it,
    0:06:25 let’s see if anything cataclysmic or monumental has happened that I need to be aware of?
    0:06:32 It’s my favorite source of news because business news is generally happy.
    0:06:33 Yeah. Got it.
    0:06:43 Just don’t wallow in the bullshit. And regular news makes me feel bad. And CNBC at best makes
    0:06:49 me feel good. And most of the time is just mid, that’s fine. And I get the news. I’m interested
    0:06:55 in business and companies and strategy and trends. And it is a pretty funny channel. It kind of gets
    0:07:00 on repeat. You don’t need to watch it very long, but they get good interviews too. So I usually don’t
    0:07:04 have the volume on, I have the closed caption scrolling. And then if something catches my
    0:07:05 eye, I don’t know how to do it.
    0:07:09 So let’s take a closer look then at the other screen.
    0:07:09 Yeah.
    0:07:11 You have your coffee.
    0:07:11 Yeah.
    0:07:12 Yeah.
    0:07:13 What time is this?
    0:07:21 Yeah. I’m a pretty early riser. 6.30 I get up usually and long before Sarah, my wife. And so
    0:07:24 these hour and a half, two hours I get in the morning are nice.
    0:07:25 Pristine.
    0:07:29 My kids have all left the house now. There was a routine when my kids were in the house
    0:07:36 that was obviously very different and really fun. I can talk about that. But now I have
    0:07:44 two hours of just catch up on the stuff in my news feed, which is my inbox, my email inbox.
    0:07:49 I’m kind of old school that way. And as I go through that, I’m catching up on the news on
    0:07:52 my iPad. I have a smoothie every morning with lots of stuff.
    0:07:53 What’s the stuff?
    0:07:57 No supplement kinds of things, but lots of…
    0:07:57 Cat testicles?
    0:08:07 I am not one of those guys. I am not one of the longevity supplement people. But I’ll tell you
    0:08:15 what’s in it. It’s about three or four ounces of oat milk, ice, an apple. It used to be a banana.
    0:08:23 I’ve switched to kind of two-thirds of an apple. Pistachios, macadamias, a handful of blueberries.
    0:08:29 My favorite electrolyte. I’m getting ready for my workout. It’s not very big. My favorite
    0:08:31 electrolyte is Procari Sweat.
    0:08:36 Yeah, the blue can, man. I had a lot of that when I lived there as an exchange student.
    0:08:41 My nutritionist says, that’s the one. And I’m like, okay. I’d been taking another one,
    0:08:43 using another one. She’s like, nope, this is the one.
    0:08:45 Not much. A prune?
    0:08:46 Prune.
    0:08:47 Prune.
    0:08:48 Because…
    0:08:48 Keeps things moving.
    0:08:53 Keeps things moving. And that’s very important. You know, young people out there don’t really
    0:08:54 realize how important that is yet.
    0:08:55 Yeah.
    0:09:00 But as you age, you realize how that can affect your day, really. Having everything moving.
    0:09:05 Here’s a little hack. I’m not really a hacky guy, but I do have a lot of quirks, I guess.
    0:09:08 Hyperice. You know that company that makes the…
    0:09:12 Okay. They have a thing. I think they bought a bunch of products, but there’s a back one called
    0:09:14 the Venom. You must have run into that.
    0:09:16 I think it heats and vibrates.
    0:09:17 Yes.
    0:09:18 Yeah.
    0:09:25 So I actually, for my whole kind of 45 minutes of that routine at the kitchen table, you know,
    0:09:30 with a lot of light coming in as soon as the sun’s up, I have it on repeat. I’m wearing that
    0:09:33 Venom. Oh my God. That loosens everything up too.
    0:09:37 So you mentioned before your workout. So this is all pre-workout.
    0:09:44 Yeah. I need to get things going and feel settled, a little bit settled, and brain on
    0:09:46 before I work out.
    0:09:48 Mm-hmm. Coffee helps too.
    0:09:53 Coffee helps all that. Yep. And I don’t drink a lot of coffee. Today I had a little too much
    0:09:58 because I’m off time zone a little bit, but I’ll have one, maybe two cups and that’ll be the
    0:09:58 caffeine for the day.
    0:09:59 Yeah. Got it.
    0:10:05 So I go through that and once everything’s, you know, make my ablutions and change into
    0:10:07 my workout stuff.
    0:10:08 Rinse your face with some holy water.
    0:10:14 And pretty much every day I do a workout. I can’t really get my mind right without that.
    0:10:18 All right. So we’re going to talk about the workout for people who are audio only. This
    0:10:24 guy looks like a, I don’t know how you, a Marvel character meets Abercrombie and Fitch model,
    0:10:29 not to mention scion of business. It’s unfair. I don’t know.
    0:10:34 How I got the short straw on this genetic and habit lottery, but we’re going to talk about
    0:10:41 the training because I have this working pet theory that longevity may be inversely correlated
    0:10:46 with the number of things that you do for longevity. In other words, there are a few things that
    0:10:53 really matter, but then there’s a long tail of things of questionable value that also have
    0:11:00 unknown, uncharted side effects. So when you start throwing the kitchen sink plus plus at your body,
    0:11:07 the likelihood of you heading in the wrong direction is probably higher or just as high.
    0:11:12 My observation is the harder you push against something, the harder it pushes back. And I think
    0:11:18 the people who are pushing really hard at the longevity and the supplement thing and the whole
    0:11:23 day scheduled out lifestyle things to improve health span. Yeah. Most of that’s probably not
    0:11:29 useful. Yeah. There’s some basics, you know, and maybe the most important basic is when I was younger,
    0:11:34 my kids were in the house because I got up early. I was to get the kids to school parent. Yeah.
    0:11:42 While Sarah became more beautiful, she stays up late and I love to cook. I’ve had several jobs as a kid
    0:11:48 growing up where I was a short order chef and worked in a lot of kitchens and I love to cook. And so our
    0:11:56 house is set up. We have a kitchen Island with a big bar with stools and the cooktop is on the other side.
    0:12:04 And whenever the kids wandered downstairs bleary eyed, I was their short order breakfast chef and anything they
    0:12:10 wanted, I would make, which was so fun. It was like the breakfast buffet with the four seasons or something.
    0:12:13 Whatever they wanted. I had it. I could whip it up really, really fast because you get that skill
    0:12:21 when you’re a short order chef. I have my younger boy had some kind of ADHD stuff and started taking those,
    0:12:30 the meds. I can’t remember how old he was, 10, 12. And those meds make kids, it’s an appetite suppressant.
    0:12:37 Oh, for sure. Okay. So maybe, you know, and I was a typical parent. Our primal urge is to feed our
    0:12:42 children. That’s it. Like feed and care for our children. That is the overriding program that kind
    0:12:48 of puts everything else down. And so I got to the point where I was so worried about how skinny he was
    0:12:53 and he wasn’t eating the rest of the day. He was hungry in the morning and I would like make a 12 egg
    0:12:59 frittata and like put potatoes in it and sausage in it. And he downed the thing. And I’m like, okay,
    0:13:01 he’s good for the day.
    0:13:01 Yeah.
    0:13:05 The anaconda diet, just one huge meal and it works.
    0:13:10 Yeah. And the punctuation on this one, aside from that, just being really quality time,
    0:13:14 regardless of what kind of mood the kids were in, it was just really quality. I cherish it.
    0:13:22 I took a picture most days. Okay. Totally candid. There’s no posing. I would sneak a picture
    0:13:27 every day. And now I have a folder called the breakfast club on my, you know, in my picture,
    0:13:34 my iPhone pictures. And I have like a thousand pictures and it’s a time series of these kids
    0:13:37 growing up. It’s a virtual possession, but it’s my most prized possession.
    0:13:43 all right. We’re going to double click on a bunch of things we passed over. Yeah. Let’s hop
    0:13:49 for the, the entrepreneurial set listening. This is also related to more than just pure
    0:13:55 entrepreneurship, but let’s see if this is dead end or if it takes us somewhere. Who was Brad Chase?
    0:13:58 Brad Chase? Yeah. What impact did he have on your life?
    0:14:04 He was a great guy. He was my first real boss out of college. It’s not quite right,
    0:14:10 but it’s close to right. Brad was a group product manager at Microsoft. Microsoft was my,
    0:14:18 you know, I’ll call it my first job out of college. It had, this is 1991. Microsoft had only about 3,000
    0:14:23 people at the time. And just for reference, because I have no idea how many employees do you think they
    0:14:31 have now? It’s going to be a multiple of that. Of course. 300, 400,000. Yeah. Orders of magnitude.
    0:14:37 Multiple orders of magnitude. Two to three. And the product managers were kind of this elite little
    0:14:43 group of really smart people. We weren’t very big. And he was my boss and we were working on MS-DOS 5,
    0:14:49 which maybe I would say we’ll have to go two standard deviations at in your audience distribution curve
    0:14:53 to find anybody who really knows what MS-DOS 5 was. But it was a really big operating system
    0:15:02 for Microsoft at the time. And we made an upgrade. And the feature was, we broke the 640K barrier.
    0:15:07 Which you’re not going to engage on the geeky stuff. But it was a really big product. And my job
    0:15:15 was to create the packaging, manage the manufacturing, and figure out how to get this physical product into
    0:15:21 the Egghead. Some of you will remember Egghead. Egghead was a retail software store. And to push
    0:15:28 the product out into Egghead. That was my first job. And Brad was a guy who, he’s one of my mentors.
    0:15:34 You know, I only worked for him for a short period of time. I was a big idea thinker. You know,
    0:15:40 big risks, big bets. And he encouraged me. At a very young age, he funded me to take a really
    0:15:46 big swing at something and supported me in it. And it failed miserably.
    0:15:48 Is this the book project?
    0:15:48 Yeah.
    0:15:49 You want to tell people about it?
    0:15:53 Well, I don’t know how that interesting is, other than the lesson of take big swing.
    0:15:58 It is. But the details help paint a picture. People can conjure a visual in their head.
    0:16:02 All right. It’s become a huge series. It’s a series for dummies. Blank for dummies.
    0:16:10 Yep. And the book that the Dummies series was founded on was DOS for dummies, believe it or not.
    0:16:17 It was like the best-selling book about software of all time. And I was like, I’m a young product
    0:16:25 manager. I want to sell more MS-DOS 5 upgrades. And I was like, okay, we have all these software
    0:16:30 retailers where people go. But the really big thing at the time, believe it or not, was Barnes & Noble
    0:16:37 and Borders bookstore. Bookstore experience was huge back then. And DOS for dummies sold millions and
    0:16:44 millions of copies of this book in Barnes & Noble and Borders. And so I was like, why don’t we do a
    0:16:51 bundle with DOS for dummies and have that be the manual for the upgrade? Bundle it together, the book
    0:16:57 and the upgrade seems reasonable and distributed through bookstores. How brilliant. Uh, and so I
    0:17:03 went and met with like one of the Riggio guys at Barnes & Noble. I met with the guy who created the
    0:17:08 dummies series, this guy, John. So I met with all these people. We designed the product. It was really,
    0:17:16 I was, you know, feeling pretty like a big deal. Built a bunch of it at probably cost us a to 10 bucks a
    0:17:22 unit. Okay. Which is a lot for cogs, right? Yeah. Cost of goods sold. I can’t remember how many we
    0:17:32 built, but it was at best a C, you know, maybe a D. What was the retail price? You hit the problem.
    0:17:39 The problem was people are going in to buy a $12 book and it was a $54 price tag or $49 price tag,
    0:17:44 which is what the, you know, basically what the software cost it at, uh, at egghead. And it kind of
    0:17:48 looked a bit too much like a book. I kind of made it look like a book. Yeah. It wasn’t the
    0:17:52 greatest cover. Anyway, I kind of, I’m embarrassed about what it looks like now. I have one of course
    0:17:57 as a reminder, but yeah, it was just, it was too, the shock value was too much. People didn’t realize
    0:18:02 there was software in it. And so we ate, we ate a bunch. We ended up getting rid of all the inventory,
    0:18:08 but it was not a success. And the amazing thing, depending on where your audience is in their careers,
    0:18:16 like you work at a lot of places out there and great organizations encourage innovation,
    0:18:22 encourage big idea people to take big swings and do not punish them when it doesn’t work out
    0:18:28 according to plan. If that happens too many times, maybe there’s a pattern and somebody should go find
    0:18:34 another job. But Brad Chase, back to Brad, sat me down. I thought I was for my review and I thought I was
    0:18:40 going to, who knows, it was a 10, $20 million mistake, you know? And I was a young kid and he
    0:18:47 said, I remember distinctly, he said, all right, what’s your next big idea? Amazing. That is that
    0:18:53 Microsoft was and is an amazing organization because of that kind of culture. Wow. How have you,
    0:19:00 if you have sort of taken that forward into companies that you’ve built or just philosophically
    0:19:06 or operationally speaking, how do you encourage that? Because there must be some constraints on
    0:19:11 things so that you don’t light the whole house on fire. Yeah. Right. Yeah. How do you think about
    0:19:17 enabling people to innovate? You don’t want learned helplessness where they’re afraid to do anything.
    0:19:20 Right. At the same time, you don’t want some rogue trader like,
    0:19:22 that’s right. That’s right.
    0:19:28 Pierce turns or whatever. Yeah. It’s really hard, but everything ultimately boils down to the people
    0:19:35 that you hire and the people you choose to work with and the people you keep and saying your culture
    0:19:43 is X, Y, Z is very different from having people who channel that, those traits that you want. And so
    0:19:50 my method for doing this is to make sure we’re really diligent about finding those innovators and the
    0:19:56 entrepreneurs, sometimes who the intrapreneurs, let’s call them, okay? The inside entrepreneurs and
    0:20:02 protect them a little bit because sometimes they’re different and mainline corporate culture
    0:20:08 sometimes rejects, often rejects the innovators and the ones who want to disrupt whatever, just rock
    0:20:14 the boat a little bit. And you really do need to rock the boat to innovate. And so the leadership needs
    0:20:19 to hire, cultivate, protect, and invest in those people. Yeah.
    0:20:22 The foreign bodies so they don’t get rejected by the corporate immune system.
    0:20:23 That’s right.
    0:20:24 Which is just, it’s just natural. Yeah.
    0:20:25 You know?
    0:20:31 All right. So let’s come back to one thing you mentioned. You said, in effect, not totally true,
    0:20:35 but let’s consider Microsoft first job out of college. What was the actual first job?
    0:20:39 I was, you know, I was one of these high performance.
    0:20:40 There’s a confession coming.
    0:20:45 Yeah. I was just one of those kids. And, you know, I went to Stanford and was an engineer.
    0:20:46 Management consulting?
    0:20:47 Yeah.
    0:20:47 Really?
    0:20:48 Yes.
    0:20:48 No.
    0:20:50 Say it ain’t so rich.
    0:20:55 I know, but it was funny. There’s a good story here. I mean, I don’t know if it’s a good
    0:20:56 story, but we’ll tell it. Yeah.
    0:21:02 Yeah. I mean, I was like a success kid. Do well. Loved that. Identified that way. And
    0:21:06 so, of course, whatever the hardest job that came to interview at Stanford when I was a senior,
    0:21:10 of course, that’s the job I wanted. And there was like strategic planning at Disney. There
    0:21:16 was the kind of investment banking training program, analyst program. And there was like
    0:21:20 the strategy management consultant. And those were like the big ones. And it was the most
    0:21:24 competitive, hardest to get. So that’s how I got tracked. And I took a job as a strategy
    0:21:29 consultant in Cambridge, right out of college. I knew pretty damn quickly it wasn’t for me.
    0:21:31 Was it about like BCG or who was?
    0:21:32 It was a spinoff of BCG.
    0:21:32 Okay.
    0:21:38 Called Alliance Consulting Group. Great group of people. Super smart. It was going into a
    0:21:43 recession though in 1989. And so a lot of people ended up losing their jobs. However, the interesting
    0:21:50 thing was one of my besties at Stanford, Nina Roberts, who was an engineer with me. We were
    0:21:57 both interviewing for all the same jobs. And she didn’t get the big job. But she got this
    0:22:02 little tech company in Seattle, Microsoft, which of course I knew. The companies that I really
    0:22:07 loved were Microsoft, Apple. All I needed to do was buy Microsoft and Apple stock back in
    0:22:12 89. That would have been, yeah, I wouldn’t be talking with you now. Microsoft, Apple, I
    0:22:16 liked Patagonia. That was a brand that I identified with. Anyway, Nina got the job as a product manager
    0:22:23 at Microsoft. And she went to Seattle. I went to Cambridge. And we kept in close touch. And
    0:22:28 I knew pretty quickly it wasn’t for me. And she knew Microsoft was the place for me and
    0:22:32 was like on the horn with me every week saying, you got to come out here. You got to come out
    0:22:36 here. And so it took about a year to finally get the flight out and the job offer.
    0:22:42 Why did you know it wasn’t for you? What about it wasn’t for you? Because there are some people
    0:22:43 who thrive in those environments, right?
    0:22:50 Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, a trite answer would be dressing up in a suit and tie and
    0:22:55 wearing uncomfortable shoes. Wasn’t for me. I like to go barefoot. Yeah. That really wasn’t what it
    0:23:01 was. You know, it kind of makes you feel important when you dress up. And I was like presenting things to
    0:23:07 CEOs and stuff. And it did feel important. And I got like a really good business school education
    0:23:12 in competitive strategy. You know, the Michael Porter stuff. I basically got an MBA in this one
    0:23:18 year. What I discovered about myself, and I discovered it there, I probably knew it before,
    0:23:22 but I hadn’t really focused on it, was I believe the world is somewhat divided. It isn’t totally
    0:23:29 binary, but it’s a continuum. But it’s maybe a barbell. Clients and servers. Okay. Which is kind of
    0:23:36 a geeky software architecture reference, but people get it. There are all of these industries
    0:23:44 that are set up to be service provision industries, lawyers, doctors, consultants, academics. And the
    0:23:51 benefit of these industries is you get to indulge your curiosity and deal with lots of different
    0:23:56 clients and lots of different problems. But oftentimes with consulting, you’re not seeing things through to
    0:24:04 the finished product. And it was apparent to me really quickly that I derived my jollies on the
    0:24:10 other hand from being a builder and the client. I actually loved what the clients were doing more
    0:24:14 than what we were doing when, when I was a consultant. So it became clear to me that I was a client. I
    0:24:18 wanted to build things. I derived my jollies that way. And so I started looking and it was good to
    0:24:23 discover at a pretty young age. And then I got to Microsoft and it was like, I was a kid in a candy
    0:24:30 store. I never left the place. Thank God for Nina, was it? Nina. Wow. I hope she still gets a box of
    0:24:40 chocolates. We’re still close. She’s great. All right. So let’s talk about then Microsoft and Expedia.
    0:24:47 How does this happen? I’ll just leave it broad. Well, back to the earlier conversation we had about
    0:24:53 taking big swings and intrapreneuring. The how on how this happened is that Expedia was a
    0:24:59 quote, venture startup inside of Microsoft. And then it spun out and we can get to that.
    0:25:04 But the real reason I even got into it and left the operating system group was that my wife, Sarah,
    0:25:11 who you just saw is a doctor. And she was applying to, she was in medical school at Northwestern and was
    0:25:18 applying to her residencies. She’s an OBGYN. And there’s only one residency, OBGYN residency in
    0:25:25 Seattle where I lived with only six or seven residents a year and one of the most attractive
    0:25:31 residencies in the country. So super competitive. We were engaged and then soon married. After that,
    0:25:37 we got married pretty young. And I was like, well, she’s not going to match out here in Seattle. So
    0:25:41 I’d better get ready to move to New York city or, you know, this probably would have been New York
    0:25:46 city where she matched. This was during the windows 95 launch. I left the windows 95 team and I went to
    0:25:54 the consumer division at Microsoft, which was kind of small. Now just, this is going to maybe sound
    0:26:01 like a side quest, but when you say you moved, did you just put in a request? Like how easy is that to
    0:26:01 do?
    0:26:06 At great companies, it’s relatively easy, relatively easy, especially for people who are tagged as high
    0:26:13 potential, but it’s still not easy. Of course, Brad, who was my boss at the time, couldn’t believe
    0:26:17 we’re launching windows 95. This is going to be the biggest launch of all time in the software
    0:26:22 industry. Maybe one of the biggest product launches of all time. I don’t know if you remember that.
    0:26:27 It was a big deal. And about six months before we launched, I had a big job there.
    0:26:33 I interviewed for jobs over in the consumer division and took on a portfolio of multimedia
    0:26:39 CD-ROMs. And the reason I did this, I was interested in consumer marketing, obviously, but the reason
    0:26:45 I did this was that I was going to have to leave Microsoft and I wanted to start a company and
    0:26:49 it wasn’t going to be an operating system. Yeah. Okay. Like that just wasn’t going to happen
    0:26:55 for reasons that, you know, we don’t need to get into, but the government made clear to Microsoft
    0:26:59 at one point. So I figured it was going to be a consumer software company and I wanted to go learn
    0:27:04 that. And the folks over there were fantastic. Microsoft was fantastic. And I took on a portfolio
    0:27:09 of CD-ROMs. Some of you out there will not even know what that is. This is kind of basically
    0:27:10 precursor to the internet.
    0:27:15 It’s the thing your doctor gives you that you can’t make any use of with all your images.
    0:27:20 It’s true. It’s true. And some artists, some musicians still hand out like CDs.
    0:27:22 It’s the artifact that your doctor gives you.
    0:27:28 It was what, it was what the last, what came in the red envelopes at Netflix.
    0:27:35 Anyway, so, but these things were like Wikipedia before Wikipedia was called Encarta and it was a
    0:27:41 multimedia CD-ROM. And one of them with the products in my portfolio of like rando ideas
    0:27:49 was an Encarta. So an encyclopedia of travel guides. This is really good. You take a whole bookshelf,
    0:27:55 a whole shelf of travel guides, cram it down onto one CD-ROM pictures, audio. Wow. What could be better
    0:28:01 for travel planning? And that was one of them. And I remember going into my first product review with
    0:28:06 Bill Gates and others, which was a kind of every six months, every year kind of thing that the product
    0:28:13 people did. And I was used to like business plans, but billions of dollars from the operating system
    0:28:18 group. And I was responsible for this thing. And I’m like, Bill, like this is tiny. The whole travel
    0:28:25 book industry in the U.S. is maybe a hundred million dollars. And that’s the whole thing. And so really,
    0:28:30 A, there’s not an opportunity. And B, you can’t travel with the CD-ROM. There were no like,
    0:28:35 like the laptop at that point was this compact suitcase that weighed 20 pounds. I’m like,
    0:28:39 that’s when you want the travel guide when you’re traveling. So even though I know it’s your idea
    0:28:48 and it’s kind of fun, it’s not going to work. That said, I demoed Easy Saber on Prodigy. Prodigy was an
    0:28:48 online service.
    0:28:49 Oh, yeah.
    0:28:58 Okay. And I was a geeky online guy. Right. And Easy Saber was a tool for travel agents to use at home
    0:29:03 on Prodigy to access the airline reservation systems. Okay. So it wasn’t meant for consumers,
    0:29:08 but I could get access to it on Prodigy. And I demoed that for him. He actually knew about it.
    0:29:12 I demoed that for him. I’m like, this is a change of the world thing. If we can have consumers
    0:29:18 be able to do this, then we can become the largest, e-commerce wasn’t a word then,
    0:29:21 we could become the largest seller of travel in the world. That was my pitch and my dream.
    0:29:26 The pitch further went, and fund me on the outside because I’m going to have to move to New York
    0:29:30 because my wife, she’s not going to match out here. And this doesn’t want to be a Microsoft business
    0:29:36 anyway. It’s travel first, software second, not software first, travel second. He agreed with all
    0:29:40 that. He thought it was an awesome idea. He also liked that we could rebuild all the mainframes
    0:29:45 on Windows NT, which was a different conversation. So he loved it. He greenlit it. He was my first
    0:29:50 venture capitalist. He said, no, don’t go do it on the outside. Do it here. We have a great team
    0:29:56 that we’ll put together. And I’m sure Sarah will match her residency at University of Washington.
    0:29:58 High degree of confidence.
    0:30:04 That was the end of that. She did match. I honestly, to this day, don’t know if there was any thumb on the
    0:30:09 scale. I doubt he had that kind of power, but she matched. I stayed in Seattle. He had promised me
    0:30:14 that he’d consider spinning it out if it got big enough. And then that’s what happened. So we spun
    0:30:19 in the height of the internet bubble, which is so bubbly that people today who think we’re in a bubble
    0:30:21 have no concept. I mean, you remember.
    0:30:22 Oh, yeah.
    0:30:22 1999.
    0:30:27 I moved out right before the Thelma and Louise car went off the cliff. I mean, I moved out to
    0:30:29 the Bay Area in 2000.
    0:30:31 It was crazy.
    0:30:32 Impeccable timing.
    0:30:38 We all thought we were the smartest people in the world. We really did. And we all thought those
    0:30:42 people in New York City just didn’t get it. And then there was comeuppance, but Expedia was a really
    0:30:50 good business. I was working for Balmer at the time. And I asked Steve for $100 million to spend on a
    0:30:55 television advertising campaign because I said, we are becoming. We can do this. We are in the pole
    0:31:02 position. We can build the biggest brand and travel. And Steve laughed at me like, no, we don’t do that.
    0:31:08 I said, well, dogshit.com is going public right now at a billion dollar valuation. It wasn’t quite that.
    0:31:13 It was like 500 million, which seemed big at the time. Really dumb, stupid stuff in my closet.com was
    0:31:19 going public. You know, put it on the web anyway. And I was like, the public markets would give us
    0:31:25 a hundred million dollars and it’ll cost basically nothing. And so let’s give this a try. Let me spin
    0:31:28 this thing out. It’s a good HR experiment, human resources experiment too.
    0:31:32 Now just explain for folks, why does spinning something out make sense? What are the
    0:31:35 advantages of doing that to them and to you?
    0:31:42 Okay. I mean, the financial answer to that is unlocking value that is stuck in a company. And
    0:31:46 this happens a lot. That’s kind of the most uninteresting one.
    0:31:48 Unlocking value, meaning.
    0:31:52 It’s not getting valued by the shareholders as being part of Microsoft.
    0:31:57 Right. But if you, if you take it public or do something outside of Microsoft, all of a sudden.
    0:32:01 It could attract its own investor base that we’re interested in that in particular.
    0:32:05 Okay. So there’s a conglomerate discount, generally speaking, in the public markets where
    0:32:12 the more stuff you have in a big company, the less the individual businesses are valued.
    0:32:16 There was a period of American business history where conglomerates actually got a premium,
    0:32:22 like in the GE, the Jack Welch GE days and Honeywell. And there were all these big conglomerates.
    0:32:26 And then the pendulum swung the other way. Microsoft could have cared less about the financial play,
    0:32:35 though. However, I pitched it mostly as an HR experiment. Microsoft was getting so big at the
    0:32:42 time that people could hide out in random corners of Microsoft. And as long as Windows NT, the operating
    0:32:47 system succeeded or office, Microsoft Office succeeded, they could make a lot of money off their stock
    0:32:55 options. And so that’s basically a compensation accountability disconnect. Okay. And so some of
    0:33:02 the best people at Microsoft, there was this field of dreams, wild opportunity outside of Microsoft,
    0:33:08 even though it was the place everybody wanted to work at the time, probably still is. There were great
    0:33:13 people, like I’ll just say, like me, like I would not have stayed. I would have gone out and started
    0:33:17 something on the outside because the opportunity was so great. And so Steve Ballmer understood this
    0:33:18 really well.
    0:33:20 God, this was like a talent retention pitch.
    0:33:25 Sort of. Sort of. And so he’s like, yeah, we’ll take a flyer on it. And that was great. And Greg
    0:33:29 Maffei, who was the CFO at the time, he became my chairman and he was really supportive. You know,
    0:33:35 he and I still work together. He’s been a great, great mentor to me. We took 150 people out of
    0:33:39 Microsoft. We gave them the choice if they wanted to stay or come. All but I think two people,
    0:33:45 we had 150 of us, all but two people decided to come take the adventure, give it a rip. I was 32
    0:33:47 years old, 31, 32 years old.
    0:33:50 Now, were you pitching those people yourself?
    0:33:50 Yeah.
    0:33:54 What was the pitch? Because it’s going to be different than the pitch to Ballmer, right?
    0:34:02 Yeah, way different. I mean, it was, I had had this idea for a while. And so the people I recruited,
    0:34:07 back to an earlier comment I made, the people that were on the team were the people who were the
    0:34:13 adventurers and the ones who wanted to, who would have left. Okay. And so this was all about the
    0:34:20 adventure. The hardest sell was not the people. It was the spouses. And I remember several dinners,
    0:34:26 like with an S1 for those, you know, it’s an IPO document with our, our Expedia draft of the S1 lying
    0:34:34 on a dinner table at Wild Ginger in Seattle with a skeptical spouse. The S1 is highlighted and like,
    0:34:38 there’s annotation and I’m having to answer like, you know, those were my toughest investors.
    0:34:44 Actually, it worked out really well, maybe too well because Expedia was a real business. We actually
    0:34:50 were profitable and growing like crazy. I mean, obviously digital travel agent made a lot of sense.
    0:34:51 Okay.
    0:34:51 Yeah.
    0:34:58 And so when Thelma and Louise went off the cliff, as you say, we were already public. Okay. And we’d gone to
    0:35:02 the moon. The stock price had gone to the moon. We crashed back down, but we had a real business
    0:35:08 and very shortly popped back up on the climb and just climbed from there. And we’re very successful.
    0:35:16 Microsoft, however, crashed with Thelma and Louise and it took 17 years for Microsoft to re-achieve
    0:35:22 the same stock price it had in November of 99 when we spun Expedia out. So the HR experiment kind of failed.
    0:35:27 How long did it take Expedia to recover or to get back on the climb?
    0:35:31 I mean, to re-achieve the all time high, probably a couple of years.
    0:35:33 Yeah. But a couple versus 17.
    0:35:36 Yeah. But the valuations were a bit nutty, right?
    0:35:36 Yeah.
    0:35:42 So it was obvious that Expedia was on the right path very quickly. And there was kind of a flight
    0:35:49 to quality with internet investors, which meant find the profitable recent IPOs, which there were not
    0:35:51 many and let’s invest in those. But we were one.
    0:35:58 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we’ll be right back to the show.
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    0:37:24 Maybe this is not a good question, but I have to ask, how did you learn to pitch? How did you learn
    0:37:32 to pitch different stakeholders? Because you’re talking about employees, bomber, gates, spouses,
    0:37:33 like that is a skill set.
    0:37:35 Preston Pyshko: Persuasion.
    0:37:37 Preston Pyshko: Yeah. How did you develop that?
    0:37:42 Preston Pyshko: It just must’ve been an innate thing that got a lot of exercise as I was growing up.
    0:37:49 Preston Pyshko: I was an engineer by degree, but never a practicing engineer. I was an engineer
    0:37:52 because I liked technology. I was a geeky kid.
    0:37:55 Preston Pyshko: What type of engineer initially?
    0:37:59 Preston Pyshko: The story there kind of answers the question. I was an industrial engineer,
    0:38:02 theoretically, but I wanted to go study in Italy my junior year.
    0:38:04 Preston Pyshko: Now, industrial engineer would be like,
    0:38:10 you end up going to a smart design or one of those types of companies. Or how are you thinking your path
    0:38:14 Preston Pyshko: That’s not a degree anymore at Stanford. It’s called management science and
    0:38:19 engineering. And then there’s a kind of a symbolic systems things. The industrial engineering degree,
    0:38:24 which kind of sunsetted, was really a kind of manufacturing efficiency.
    0:38:24 Preston Pyshko: I got it. Okay.
    0:38:25 Preston Pyshko: I got it.
    0:38:28 Preston Pyshko: Optimization, simulation,
    0:38:32 lots of computer work going into the design of making things more efficient.
    0:38:32 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:38:33 Preston Pyshko: Kind of like the operations,
    0:38:35 Preston Pyshko: Research, finance department, other places.
    0:38:36 Preston Pyshko: That’s right.
    0:38:36 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:38:40 Preston Pyshko: I did it just because it was a Bachelor of Science, not a Bachelor of Arts.
    0:38:45 Preston Pyshko: It was the most businessy of the engineering disciplines.
    0:38:47 Preston Pyshko: At Stanford, they called it imaginary engineering,
    0:38:51 because the mechanical and the electrical folks didn’t respect us.
    0:38:53 Preston Pyshko: Probably deservedly.
    0:38:55 Preston Pyshko: Because we were more interested in business.
    0:38:56 Preston Pyshko: But anyway,
    0:39:00 Preston Pyshko: I did this because I had all these other interests and skills around
    0:39:03 Preston Pyshko: persuasion and people and entrepreneurialism.
    0:39:05 Preston Pyshko: Already at that point, as an undergrad.
    0:39:06 Preston Pyshko: Already, already.
    0:39:08 Preston Pyshko: As a kid, I had all that.
    0:39:10 Preston Pyshko: I probably was a good pitch person already,
    0:39:13 but had a lot of support and exercise of that.
    0:39:14 Preston Pyshko: You mentioned Italy in passing.
    0:39:16 Preston Pyshko: So we’re going to come to Italy.
    0:39:19 Preston Pyshko: But how did you get that exercise when you were younger?
    0:39:21 Preston Pyshko: I went to Italy.
    0:39:25 Preston Pyshko: So I got off the industrial engineering track and Stanford was awesome.
    0:39:27 Preston Pyshko: I came back and I like,
    0:39:29 Preston Pyshko: Well, you can’t get an accredited degree now.
    0:39:29 Preston Pyshko: I’m like, I don’t care.
    0:39:33 Preston Pyshko: And Nina’s dad was a professor at the time.
    0:39:33 Preston Pyshko: And he said,
    0:39:36 Preston Pyshko: Well, Stanford, you can self design an engineering degree.
    0:39:37 Preston Pyshko: So let’s just design one for you.
    0:39:39 Preston Pyshko: So we designed, I designed one.
    0:39:42 Preston Pyshko: So my degree is called general engineering colon industrial economics.
    0:39:46 Preston Pyshko: Anyway, unlike a lot of kids today,
    0:39:50 Preston Pyshko: I worked real summer jobs, you know, my kids generally did.
    0:39:52 Preston Pyshko: Actually, my kids have worked real summer jobs.
    0:39:54 Preston Pyshko: So we were talking like busboy?
    0:39:55 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:39:58 Preston Pyshko: I mean, my daughter, I’m thinking of what their jobs are right now.
    0:40:00 Preston Pyshko: My daughter spent, you’re going to know this place.
    0:40:03 Preston Pyshko: You know, after gurneys was redone, it became like this club scene.
    0:40:04 Preston Pyshko: This is out in Montauk.
    0:40:05 Preston Pyshko: Once it got fancied up.
    0:40:06 Preston Pyshko: It got super fancied up.
    0:40:08 Preston Pyshko: Took away the day passes for the locals.
    0:40:20 Preston Pyshko: It was after her sophomore year in college, I think, and I’m like, honey,
    0:40:22 you’ve got a place to stay out in the Hamptons.
    0:40:27 Preston Pyshko: You don’t need to get on the track, the track that every smart kid is supposed
    0:40:27 to take.
    0:40:28 Preston Pyshko: You don’t need to do that.
    0:40:30 Preston Pyshko: Why don’t you get real experience?
    0:40:35 Preston Pyshko: So she came and lived in our house out in Montauk and was the – who’s the
    0:40:38 person that stands at the counter when – Preston Pyshko: The hostess?
    0:40:40 Preston Pyshko: The hostess at the club part of gurneys.
    0:40:41 Preston Pyshko: Oh, God.
    0:40:44 Preston Pyshko: Okay, where it was like $2,000 tables.
    0:40:44 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, yeah.
    0:40:45 Preston Pyshko: That’s quite an education.
    0:40:47 Preston Pyshko: It’s an amazing human nature.
    0:40:48 Preston Pyshko: Human nature job.
    0:40:49 Preston Pyshko: Oh, my God.
    0:40:53 Preston Pyshko: She had a crazy, successful, interesting learning experience.
    0:40:54 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:40:56 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, and we had fun watching it happen.
    0:40:57 Preston Pyshko: And we also got tables set.
    0:41:01 Preston Pyshko: Anyway, when I was a kid, I was the ice cream man.
    0:41:02 Preston Pyshko: So I ran my own ice cream business.
    0:41:04 Preston Pyshko: This is in Connecticut.
    0:41:06 Preston Pyshko: I went to high school in Connecticut.
    0:41:10 Preston Pyshko: I learned how to do house painting as a crew member of a buddy of mine.
    0:41:15 Preston Pyshko: And then after one year doing that, I was like, well, well, I can bid the jobs
    0:41:17 myself, you know, and I can hire a crew.
    0:41:22 Preston Pyshko: And so I had my own painting company for a couple of years, which was hugely profitable
    0:41:24 Preston Pyshko: for a kid. I mean, I made a ton.
    0:41:28 Preston Pyshko: I had to pay for all my expenses at college, not my tuition.
    0:41:31 Preston Pyshko: My parents covered the tuition, but I had to pay all my other expenses.
    0:41:37 Preston Pyshko: So making back then, I would make like $15,000 or $20,000 in summer painting.
    0:41:37 Preston Pyshko: Wow.
    0:41:39 Preston Pyshko: And that was a boatload of money.
    0:41:39 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:41:41 Preston Pyshko: And so I had run my own businesses.
    0:41:43 Preston Pyshko: Got it. All right.
    0:41:44 Preston Pyshko: I knew I liked it.
    0:41:46 Preston Pyshko: And why did you go to Italy at all?
    0:41:51 Preston Pyshko: Why did I want to go when I was in school? I have no Italian heritage,
    0:41:58 as you can probably tell. But I went to Italy and Greece when I was in high school with my Latin
    0:42:06 teacher and just had these awesome kind of kid high school trips. And while I was in Italy, I literally
    0:42:13 Preston Pyshko: fell in love with the whole vibe, the food, the wine, the girls, the family culture.
    0:42:18 Preston Pyshko: The kind of work is not that as important, you know, and I kind of fell in love
    0:42:24 Preston Pyshko: with it and kept going back. So I went to study. And then after I sold Expedia
    0:42:30 to Barry Diller, we were public and Barry Diller bought it. And we had three little kids and I was
    0:42:35 Preston Pyshko: leaving after Barry Diller, I wanted to give space to the next team. And I said,
    0:42:40 Preston Pyshko: let’s go back to Italy. And so we moved to Florence for a year after we sold Expedia.
    0:42:43 Preston Pyshko: In fact, Nina, who I was talking about before, she was living there, married to a European
    0:42:49 Preston Pyshko: guy. And I’d gone to Stanford there when I was a junior and I kept in touch with the
    0:42:55 Preston Pyshko: woman who ran the Stanford program, Linda. And so we kind of moved to Florence and went back
    0:42:59 Preston Pyshko: to school and learned how to paint and started road biking. Anyway,
    0:43:01 Preston Pyshko: so I just, I love the whole Italy vibe.
    0:43:05 Preston Pyshko: Let’s take a closer look at the Barry Diller transaction.
    0:43:06 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, yeah.
    0:43:11 Preston Pyshko: How did that come to be? And what were the most important aspects of that deal?
    0:43:16 Preston Pyshko: Could be deal structure, could be timing, could be anything. But how does that even happen?
    0:43:19 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, so Expedia had been public for maybe four years
    0:43:24 Preston Pyshko: and had become very successful and pretty big,
    0:43:26 Preston Pyshko: you know, pretty highly valued in the market.
    0:43:32 Preston Pyshko: And I think it came about, I mean, Barry was kind of interested. He was building a
    0:43:35 Preston Pyshko: interactive conglomerate called IAC.
    0:43:37 Preston Pyshko: IAC, right. USA Networks.
    0:43:40 Preston Pyshko: I think he owns most of the popular dating apps,
    0:43:42 Preston Pyshko: things like that. I mean, IAC buys a lot of stuff.
    0:43:44 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, and then spun it out as Match.com.
    0:43:44 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:43:49 Preston Pyshko: You know, and yeah, he was post his media career. He got into interactive
    0:43:53 Preston Pyshko: media and he started buying stuff. And a guy, his kind of key corporate
    0:43:59 Preston Pyshko: development strategist and all around great fricking guy who worked for
    0:44:01 Preston Pyshko: him was a young guy named Dara Kazushahi.
    0:44:05 Preston Pyshko: Ah, okay. Folks might recognize that, man.
    0:44:07 Preston Pyshko: I may be miscrediting or giving
    0:44:10 Preston Pyshko: you too much credit, Dara, but probably not.
    0:44:14 Preston Pyshko: I think this was Dara’s idea was consolidate the players
    0:44:18 Preston Pyshko: in the online travel space, that it was already big,
    0:44:20 Preston Pyshko: but it was going to be much bigger.
    0:44:25 Preston Pyshko: And Microsoft was the majority owner, but didn’t
    0:44:26 Preston Pyshko: have anybody on the board.
    0:44:29 Preston Pyshko: Even there, you know, 65% of the company didn’t
    0:44:31 Preston Pyshko: have anybody on the board. Greg, they knew me and they trusted
    0:44:34 Preston Pyshko: Greg Maffei, who had left as CFO and was running
    0:44:36 Preston Pyshko: That is an unbelievable level of trust.
    0:44:38 Preston Pyshko: It just didn’t matter to Microsoft, right?
    0:44:38 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, I guess.
    0:44:40 Preston Pyshko: Just as a percentage of the total.
    0:44:43 Preston Pyshko: And at some point somebody came in, I won’t name names,
    0:44:46 Preston Pyshko: somebody came in and said, “We need to focus at Microsoft.
    0:44:47 Preston Pyshko: We need to get things focused.
    0:44:48 Preston Pyshko: We’re too scattered.”
    0:44:52 Preston Pyshko: And an easy thing to do was to take a big offer from Barry Diller.
    0:44:53 Preston Pyshko: And so they did.
    0:44:55 Preston Pyshko: It was a bit of a two-step deal.
    0:44:58 Preston Pyshko: The IAC and Dara and Barry bought
    0:45:00 Preston Pyshko: Microsoft 65%.
    0:45:06 Preston Pyshko: So we were public, but captive to IAC.
    0:45:08 Preston Pyshko: And Barry Diller was my chairman for a while.
    0:45:09 Preston Pyshko: And then maybe eight months later,
    0:45:10 Preston Pyshko: Bid for the rest of it.
    0:45:13 Preston Pyshko: And consolidated it down.
    0:45:17 Preston Pyshko: Or I think they kind of pushed us to buy the number two player,
    0:45:19 Preston Pyshko: which was Hotels.com.
    0:45:23 Preston Pyshko: And so we mashed those things together and I moved on at that point.
    0:45:26 Preston Pyshko: So when in that journey, the Expedia journey,
    0:45:28 Preston Pyshko: did you feel the highest high?
    0:45:30 Preston Pyshko: Like, for instance, I would imagine
    0:45:36 Preston Pyshko: when you are working summers and on your way through high school and college,
    0:45:38 Preston Pyshko: there was probably a moment, I’m just guessing here,
    0:45:44 Preston Pyshko: but when you had your first big summer with that painting gig and made $15,
    0:45:48 Preston Pyshko: 20 grand, like, my God, you must have felt rich.
    0:45:49 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, we went to the high lie.
    0:45:50 Preston Pyshko: You know what the high lie is?
    0:45:51 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:45:52 Preston Pyshko: Took the crew to the high lie.
    0:45:54 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, so with the Expedia journey,
    0:45:55 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:46:00 Preston Pyshko: was it the tail end with the Barry Dillard transaction?
    0:46:00 Preston Pyshko: No.
    0:46:00 Preston Pyshko: No.
    0:46:02 Preston Pyshko: Because there’s mixed emotions there, right?
    0:46:02 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:46:04 Preston Pyshko: And I didn’t control the company.
    0:46:07 Preston Pyshko: I learned that henceforth I would control the companies that I started.
    0:46:12 Preston Pyshko: No, I mean, that was great and it made sense and it created value.
    0:46:18 Preston Pyshko: No, the highest highs were probably around the spin out and the IPO.
    0:46:21 Preston Pyshko: There’s kind of a funny IPO story that my wife,
    0:46:25 Preston Pyshko: Sarah, was pregnant with our first child, Will, during the roadshow.
    0:46:28 Preston Pyshko: Okay, so this is November of 1999.
    0:46:30 Preston Pyshko: It’s really pitching to the buy side.
    0:46:31 Preston Pyshko: So it’s pitching to the mutual funds.
    0:46:32 Preston Pyshko: To the mutual funds.
    0:46:33 Preston Pyshko: To the investors.
    0:46:33 Preston Pyshko: Okay, got it.
    0:46:38 Preston Pyshko: And it used to be, I think now is a lot more on Zoom, which it should be,
    0:46:42 by the way. But it was a rite of passage back then for companies going public and a lot more
    0:46:51 companies went public then. And it was 15 cities over three weeks, five meetings a day, six meetings a day,
    0:46:57 Preston Pyshko: Chartered private plane with banker team and CFO and CEO zipping around the country.
    0:47:05 Preston Pyshko: Okay, exhausting and exhilarating and repetitive and kind of boring, also really fun.
    0:47:10 Preston Pyshko: Anyway, so Sarah was pregnant and she wasn’t due until December, but we had been on the road
    0:47:15 for two and a half weeks already. We’d filled the book 30 times over, which means we had a lot more demand.
    0:47:19 Preston Pyshko: We knew the offering was going to be successful. These were back in the days when the offerings
    0:47:23 Preston Pyshko: were a little bit managed to the advantage of the inside banker people. But anyway,
    0:47:27 that’s a different story. So it was going to work. The IPO was going to work. And I called the red show
    0:47:35 off a day early. I flew back to Seattle exhausted. I get in bed at like one in the morning after getting
    0:47:41 home. Sarah’s super pregnant. I get a tap on the shoulder at 3:00 a.m.
    0:47:48 Preston Pyshko: And she said, she’s an OB, so she knows what’s going on. Although that’s not always the
    0:47:56 case, but she knows what’s going on. And she said to me, “Honey, this is like IPO day. If our baby is
    0:48:01 born on the IPO day, do I really have to name him Expedia?” Which is what I promised the team.
    0:48:12 And then we went to the hospital and while the IPO was happening, my son was being born. My oldest was
    0:48:14 being born. And so that was actually the high point right there.
    0:48:19 Preston Pyshko: Wow. All right. Now we’re tracking the path. So now you’re
    0:48:25 painting a vase of fruit in Florence, living the life of a…
    0:48:29 Preston Pyshko: Naked. It was a naked woman. It was life, it was life drawing.
    0:48:30 Preston Pyshko: There we go. All right.
    0:48:31 Preston Pyshko: Charcoal life drawing.
    0:48:34 Preston Pyshko: Yeah. There we go. All right. Charcoal, charcoal drawing of naked
    0:48:36 lady, changing poses every 10 minutes.
    0:48:38 Preston Pyshko: What could be a better way to learn art?
    0:48:40 Preston Pyshko: What a lovely way to learn art.
    0:48:41 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:48:44 Preston Pyshko: And living the life of a refined gentleman.
    0:48:45 Preston Pyshko: Mm-hmm.
    0:48:47 Preston Pyshko: Pasta and wine and culture and road biking.
    0:48:47 Preston Pyshko: Road biking.
    0:48:49 Preston Pyshko: Little cap, maybe.
    0:48:55 Preston Pyshko: Little cap, of course, no helmet. Taking Italian classes in the morning.
    0:48:58 Preston Pyshko: Yeah, yeah. So here and there. Sounds like a great life.
    0:48:58 Preston Pyshko: It was fun.
    0:49:02 Preston Pyshko: So how the hell does Zillow happen?
    0:49:02 Preston Pyshko: Yeah.
    0:49:06 Preston Pyshko: Do you start getting fidgety? I mean, what happens there?
    0:49:09 Preston Pyshko: Yeah. I was still pretty young. So probably,
    0:49:19 I was three, I was like 35, 36. And I was hoping art, music, thought I might write books, whatever.
    0:49:21 Preston Pyshko: You know, find the next chapter.
    0:49:22 Preston Pyshko: Mm-hmm.
    0:49:26 Preston Pyshko: Because I really didn’t need to, I had enough to take care of myself for the rest of
    0:49:33 my life. But something I discovered, I was still on a few boards, including the IAC board, which had
    0:49:40 bought Expedia and Netflix, where I’d been on the board since like 2000. And still, I’m still on that
    0:49:46 board and a couple others. So I was still involved in the business world from a kind of long,
    0:49:51 in a long distance way. Though I had an amazing time learning experience, I didn’t find my next
    0:49:58 calling. And I was still really curious about the business world and what was going on. So I knew
    0:50:02 that I had, we weren’t going to stay in Italy. We were going to move back and I was going to do
    0:50:09 something else, which is great to learn. And we did. Did it in Florence for a little over a year.
    0:50:13 We spent a few months skiing with the family, which was really fun in the mountains.
    0:50:17 Pyshko: And you came to the US. I am going on a hunting expedition. Did you
    0:50:19 already have an inkling of what you were going to do?
    0:50:23 Pyshko: A little bit. I didn’t know if I really had another startup in me,
    0:50:32 because I knew how much work it was. And I adjusted my life to prioritize some things I
    0:50:40 hadn’t prioritized when I was younger, like living well and family and body and mind. And I was very
    0:50:45 curious in all kinds of different things. So the venture capital opportunity was available to me
    0:50:50 to go be a GP at a venture capital firm. And I was kind of headed in that direction.
    0:50:56 And then my Zillow co-founder, Lloyd Frank, who was a guy I went to Stanford with and did Expedia with.
    0:51:03 Pyshko: He was still at Expedia and he got fired by our good friend, Eric, who was running Expedia at
    0:51:06 the time. Probably for good reason. Awesome guy. Really smart.
    0:51:09 Pyshko: I won’t follow up on that.
    0:51:10 Pyshko: We don’t need to.
    0:51:12 Pyshko: Let that one go. Pyshko: It’s a fun story.
    0:51:15 Pyshko: But Lloyd, so Lloyd got fired and Lloyd’s like,
    0:51:20 “Wait, wait, wait, don’t move to California. Let’s just sit in an office and brainstorm for a while.”
    0:51:26 Pyshko: And so we did. We did. And we went through a bunch of ideas. He went off on one
    0:51:31 that was kind of Dropbox before Dropbox. It was obvious that the kind of cloud storage thing was
    0:51:36 going to be huge. And I said, “Go figure that out. See what it costs.” And so he disappeared
    0:51:40 for a couple of weeks. So we were kind of sharing an office. And he came back and he’s like, “Yeah,
    0:51:44 100% this is going to work, but there’s going to be no profit. There’s no profit. Like there’s going
    0:51:47 to be Microsoft and Google are going to give this away.” Pyshko: Where were you guys brainstorming?
    0:51:51 Pyshko: We were brainstorming and his dad, his dad was a stockbroker. He had an extra
    0:51:54 couple of rooms in his office and he just gave them to us. Pyshko: New York City?
    0:51:56 Pyshko: No, no. This is Seattle. Pyshko: Oh, Seattle.
    0:51:58 Pyshko: Seattle. Pyshko: Okay, got it, got it. Pyshko: Yeah, yeah. So we’re in Seattle.
    0:52:02 Because we didn’t sell our house in Seattle. When we moved to Italy, we’d moved back to our house. But we were
    0:52:07 looking for a new house. We were going to maybe move to California or something in Seattle. Our
    0:52:13 family was getting bigger. And so we went through a series of ideas. And then at one point I said,
    0:52:21 “Hey, back when we started Expedia, we also wrote a plan for an electronic stockbroker, matchmaking
    0:52:28 service, all the classified categories basically, and all the kind of agent categories were all obvious
    0:52:33 that we were on a little team of people researching big ideas inside of Microsoft. How would the web
    0:52:39 change industry?” And so we had all these plans. Expedia was one of the ideas. There was basically
    0:52:45 to create a digital real estate marketplace. And I dusted that off and I said, “Hey, what about that?
    0:52:51 I mean, you’re looking for a house right now. It’s really freaking hard. This is 2003. And I can’t
    0:52:59 get the price of a home online. I can’t even get the address.” Because the industry had been very good
    0:53:01 at defending their special data.
    0:53:02 Making it opaque.
    0:53:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were the power to the people guys. We were the guys who freed all that
    0:53:12 information for the regular traveler. And we were like, “Well, it wants to be power to the people
    0:53:19 here too, right?” And we couldn’t believe that it hadn’t changed. And so that was the dawn of Zillow.
    0:53:24 Yeah. So he convinced me not to move. And I said, “Well, I’ll be CEO, but I’m not going to work that hard.”
    0:53:30 He’s like, “Don’t worry. I’ll do it. Just be CEO. I need you to be CEO, because you have to raise money and stuff.”
    0:53:31 All this trick in the book.
    0:53:37 So maybe I am a four-hour work with CAC kind of guy. I said, “Look, I don’t want to do it full-time.
    0:53:42 You can use my name.” Of course, he was like, “Yeah, sure. Whatever. You can do whatever you
    0:53:43 want, Rich.” Knowing I’d be sucked in.
    0:53:44 Let the line out.
    0:53:46 He totally managed me.
    0:53:50 Yeah, I think I’m in charge now. Lloyd was in charge.
    0:53:54 So when you say you’re brainstorming, there’s an entire universe of possibilities.
    0:53:55 Yeah.
    0:54:00 What constraints or criteria are you applying to that brainstorming? What are you looking for?
    0:54:08 I think most great idea is that there’s just a big, obvious problem. I like consumer stuff.
    0:54:12 And so that means the way I interface with the world, the way we all interface with the world,
    0:54:18 is rife with problems. And all those problems are business opportunities. And when you see a particularly
    0:54:25 big, “Oh my God, why is it this way?” Those are probably the bigger opportunities. And it’s almost
    0:54:33 as simple as that. We identified this big dislocation. We knew 100% that there would be a leading digital
    0:54:35 real estate marketplace in the US.
    0:54:36 At some point.
    0:54:36 At some point.
    0:54:37 There’s an inevitability.
    0:54:43 Inevitability. And business model? Who knows? Who cares? It’s a giant. It’s a big
    0:54:50 pond. And so my business criteria for doing stuff is, is it a big pond? And are there good fishermen?
    0:54:54 Right. Because the travel CD-ROM wasn’t big enough.
    0:54:55 It’s not a small pond.
    0:54:59 100 million. That’s the entire market. Plus, you’re not going to carry a briefcase
    0:55:04 that you’re doing weight training with inadvertently.
    0:55:06 Problems.
    0:55:11 A lot of entrepreneurs make this mistake of identifying a really big problem.
    0:55:13 But it is just a small opportunity.
    0:55:20 And then there are ones where, I know Bill Gurley was on the pod a couple of years ago,
    0:55:23 talking about the Uber thing, the insight. You were involved there a little bit.
    0:55:28 I was one of the first three advisors when it was called Uber Cab LLC. Yeah.
    0:55:30 Way back in the day. Yeah.
    0:55:32 And for people who didn’t pick up, Dara.
    0:55:34 Oh, sorry. Dara’s the CEO.
    0:55:35 Current CEO of Uber.
    0:55:40 He was the CEO of Expedia after, you know, two after I left as well.
    0:55:46 Anyway, a lot of people make the mistake, is what I was going to say, of identifying a real
    0:55:51 problem, but it’s just too small. Uber kind of, to some people, a lot of people looked too small
    0:55:56 because it was a black car, TAM, the total addressable market. But the insight that you
    0:56:04 and Gurley and Travis and I guess J-Cal and others had was that actually, no, it was going to,
    0:56:10 it was going to take not just the black car market, but taxi, transportation, and then ultimately more.
    0:56:12 It can expand the total addressable market.
    0:56:12 That’s right.
    0:56:13 Right.
    0:56:14 Car ownership.
    0:56:14 Yeah.
    0:56:20 Just transportation, you know, and of course, obviously it’s beautifully played out that way.
    0:56:22 It took a little while to see, but it’s, yeah, amazing.
    0:56:29 Anyway, so big pond, good fishermen, after identifying the big problem. And I guess that was the guiding
    0:56:35 thing here. I knew, Lloyd and I knew there would be a digital real estate marketplace. We didn’t
    0:56:40 know what the business would be. We didn’t know what, how we were going to play. And we started
    0:56:46 poking at ideas for attracting audience with software. And we made a couple of big mistakes
    0:56:49 before we landed on the solution. Yeah.
    0:56:54 What were some of the big mistakes and how costly, how risky were they?
    0:56:58 Pretty small venture numbers at that point. And Lloyd and I were funding it ourselves. You know,
    0:57:05 we put the first 5 million bucks total in with a couple of friends. So costly, but not that costly.
    0:57:06 But the first idea we were-
    0:57:10 Side note also what Garrett Camp did with Uber early on.
    0:57:11 He did too. He wrote, yeah, I didn’t realize that.
    0:57:15 Yeah. There was self funding for a while. It wasn’t expensive. Yeah.
    0:57:20 It wasn’t overly expensive. But it’s a good way to go as a second time founder or a non first time
    0:57:25 founder, if you actually have some resources. And because you end up with more of the company down
    0:57:26 the road. Yeah.
    0:57:32 You know, I love Gurley. We’re really close. But what, by the time Gurley or the venture capitalists
    0:57:36 come in, you know, if they’re writing the first check, they’re going to end up with a big chunk of
    0:57:41 the company, which is great, especially if you get somebody like Bill. Okay. But we were able to do it
    0:57:49 ourselves. We were enamored of Google. Everyone was at the time. The magic business model that they
    0:57:56 sort of discovered or innovated, iterated on that came from another company was the AdWords,
    0:57:59 the digital auction-based marketplace.
    0:58:01 You say it came from another company.
    0:58:01 Yeah.
    0:58:02 I might not know that wrinkle.
    0:58:03 Yeah, it did.
    0:58:04 It did.
    0:58:06 Meaning they acquired something or they-
    0:58:09 I’m thinking, what’s the guy’s name who did the startup incubator factory? Gross?
    0:58:11 Oh, Bill Gross?
    0:58:11 Yeah.
    0:58:14 Yeah, it was, I mean, I may be getting this wrong.
    0:58:15 Am I making this idea lab?
    0:58:16 Am I making it?
    0:58:20 He did idea lab. There was a lot of companies kind of sort of spun out of that. But one of
    0:58:25 them was a search engine whose name I’m forgetting. We can, you know, look it up later.
    0:58:26 We’ll put it in the show notes. Yeah.
    0:58:30 And, but it was, the whole basis of the search engine was AdWords.
    0:58:31 AdWords.
    0:58:32 Oh, wow.
    0:58:36 And so did Google acquire that or are they just being a better mousetrap?
    0:58:38 I think the latter, but I’m not an expert.
    0:58:40 Regardless, I don’t want to speak out of turn.
    0:58:42 We’ll put the story in the show notes.
    0:58:49 Okay, right. There’s a good story there, I’m sure. Why I brought it up was we were enamored
    0:58:57 of auctions. Auctions have huge geek appeal for mathy idealists. And we were like, well,
    0:59:02 obviously the US housing market should be at auction. And that’s the most efficient mechanism
    0:59:07 for price discovery. Okay. Which of course it is. And we were like, okay, so that’s our
    0:59:14 business. We’re going to auction homes. And what we learned trying to auction a home that
    0:59:21 our buddy Gordon got us kind of on consignment was that, well, two things. One, to have an auction
    0:59:28 work, you kind of need a real time liquid market. Okay. Duh. Okay. So you need all the bidders
    0:59:32 there at the same time. Okay. Well, the housing market doesn’t work that way. It’s just, you know,
    0:59:36 it’s a, it’s a, it’s a long period of time. You want to show it to a lot of bidders. You know,
    0:59:43 that, that didn’t work. The second thing, which is obvious is until all those innovators out there,
    0:59:50 if you have to educate your customer on how to buy the thing that you’re doing, if it’s like a radically
    0:59:55 new way to do it, you know, from decades or hundreds of years of ingrained human behavior,
    1:00:01 it’s a pretty heavy lift. It’s got to be super duper simple, obvious, and 10 times better than
    1:00:08 the current way. And just, we didn’t check any of those boxes, but in pursuit of price discovery,
    1:00:15 we found the Zestimate, which was our killer feature. And the visual on the Zestimate that’s
    1:00:20 in my head that kind of popped in, in our collective heads on the home auction web experiment
    1:00:30 was a real time estimated value algorithmically driven as your Google map zooming over neighborhoods,
    1:00:35 looking. We wanted prices on every roof because everything should have a price.
    1:00:40 And the timing of that is pretty wild, right? And it’s just like how things line up. Cause I,
    1:00:44 I mean, how long had the aerial view been around prior to you guys?
    1:00:44 Short.
    1:00:45 It was short.
    1:00:47 Short. And there was no iPhone. There were no smartphones,
    1:00:52 but it was obvious. Like I was like, Whoa. And then I also had in my head,
    1:01:00 homes are for home American homeowners, oftentimes their largest asset and the bulk of their wealth.
    1:01:03 And people care a lot about it. Yeah.
    1:01:08 So I knew they wanted to know the value. I knew that was catnip. Okay.
    1:01:13 I knew I, in my gut, I knew that was, we did the team knew it was candy and I’m like, Oh, it’s an
    1:01:20 investment. And so let’s plot the Zestimate, the home value, like a stock chart. And so the aerial
    1:01:26 view with the numbers, any home’s value laid out like a stock chart. Those were the two things.
    1:01:29 And when we discovered that we were kind of off to the races.
    1:01:36 Okay. So at the time, was it just rentable infrastructure, AWS, you get it going, you launch
    1:01:40 and it’s up to the right, just a nice, smooth rocket launch. Is that what happened?
    1:01:42 AWS didn’t exist.
    1:01:54 No, dude, man, this was like server in a closet. Yeah. This was server in a closet.
    1:01:59 You forbade Christmas lights or something like you’re like preserving electricity and compute
    1:02:00 power and all this stuff.
    1:02:02 I don’t remember that. I don’t remember.
    1:02:02 All right. Got it.
    1:02:04 But David, our things of lore.
    1:02:09 David Baitel, who was our CTO at the time and still is, and was CTO at Expedia with me too.
    1:02:14 He may have told that story somewhere, so it may actually be right. Yeah, I believe. I remember
    1:02:20 our launch blog post with Garrett, who worked for David, like doing the, what’s the professor in?
    1:02:23 It’s Doc from Back to the Future.
    1:02:25 3.2 gigawatts, whatever.
    1:02:31 Because we launched and millions of people showed up because Walt Mossberg, who was,
    1:02:35 who’s the equivalent? Is there any equivalent of Walt Mossberg now? No.
    1:02:38 It’s like the Oprah of tech at the time, right?
    1:02:43 I mean, God. And Walt loved it. And Walt published. And millions of people came on day
    1:02:50 one. And of course, the server in the closet tipped over for a while. And it was painful. But Amy
    1:02:55 Butinsky, who was running our marketing at the time, said, “Don’t worry, we’ll make lemonade out of
    1:03:01 lemons.” And the headline the next day in the San Francisco Chronicle was, “House porn site Zillow
    1:03:06 launches and falls over because it’s so popular.” Or something like that.
    1:03:09 And she’s like, “Yeah, that’s going to be good press.”
    1:03:16 Anyway, I’m a big believer in the product being the most important part of the marketing mix,
    1:03:17 if that makes sense to you.
    1:03:23 Gurley actually challenged us when we launched. He was on the board. Benchmark and TCV were our A-round
    1:03:30 funders. And he was on the board at the time. And we had had kind of a spend advertising dollars
    1:03:34 mindset at Expedia because we really needed to grow exposure to the brand. And Gurley said,
    1:03:39 “Well, what if we didn’t have any marketing budget?” And that launched. We were like, “No way,
    1:03:44 you can’t do that.” But that made us think a lot more creatively about the features that we built,
    1:03:50 the way we built them, and then the way we PR communicated them. And I’ve since developed a
    1:03:57 pretty good playbook around, I guess, what I would call provocation marketing. When you have really
    1:04:01 provocative feature that you know people are going to feel emotional about one way or the other,
    1:04:04 and they’re going to talk about it, you’re on to something.
    1:04:08 What are some aspects of that toolkit or the playbook?
    1:04:14 Yeah. I mean, having data, having a stream of data that people are interested in at Glassdoor,
    1:04:20 which I did with Bob Homan, who was at Expedia with me as well. Glassdoor is another example of that.
    1:04:25 When you have constantly changing data that people are interested in,
    1:04:31 you can almost think about feeding that data to hungry consumers in a Bloomberg-like way.
    1:04:39 And so the playbook that Amy kind of put together was building a PR data distribution
    1:04:45 infrastructure down to the local. Amy was our marketing chief at Zillow. She’s still on the board
    1:04:50 today. And she was really creative about recognizing that there’s an infinite news hole for housing data
    1:04:58 at local newspaper level once upon a time. And if you could wire that up to just feed, constantly feed,
    1:05:05 the endless appetite. Housing is just an important topic, right? And there’s always space in the paper
    1:05:11 for a story on housing and changing prices. And so we set up a mechanism to feed that data, which was a
    1:05:17 terrific brand builder for us rather than spending ad money. And then just having this estimate be so
    1:05:23 provocative, like high school boyfriend’s house, philanthropist development team that are trying
    1:05:28 trying to figure out who’s a good target, you know, whatever, like it’s a lot of applications.
    1:05:29 Lots of applications.
    1:05:34 I know you had a lot of fans. I think the Arizona attorney general was a fan.
    1:05:36 That’s a deep cut. Wow.
    1:05:42 No, but this is of interest to me because there is opposition also.
    1:05:42 Oh, yeah.
    1:05:48 Right? And my God, I mean, the number of, I don’t think they were actual ulcers,
    1:05:53 but just the rollercoaster ride that I was also on with Uber from a regulatory,
    1:06:00 mobbed up local fill in the blank perspective. It was just nonstop battles. And that was just part
    1:06:01 of the deal, right?
    1:06:03 And actually part of the playbook.
    1:06:03 Yeah.
    1:06:06 Honestly, it’s the same provocation marketing.
    1:06:08 It’s the exact same thing. It’s exactly the same.
    1:06:09 Yeah. So what happened with you guys?
    1:06:14 Yeah. I mean, you know, we were provocative to some of the industry players who were big lobbyists.
    1:06:15 Yeah.
    1:06:17 You know, the taxi commission in Uber’s case.
    1:06:17 Yeah.
    1:06:21 In our case, a lot of the real estate professional associations.
    1:06:22 They were not.
    1:06:22 A lot of voters.
    1:06:23 They were not, they were not thrilled.
    1:06:26 They’re not thrilled or they think they’re not thrilled.
    1:06:29 They don’t realize till later that it’s could be helpful, but, but whatever.
    1:06:30 Yes.
    1:06:35 They were initially provoked to nobody, no industry that’s likes to change.
    1:06:37 Most people don’t like change.
    1:06:41 I’m one of the people that loves change, but a lot of people, most people don’t.
    1:06:43 And so we were seen as a, we were seen.
    1:06:46 You may like change when you’re the instigator of the change.
    1:06:48 Well, that’s, you know, awesome.
    1:06:52 It leaves me more open to change coming from the outside too, though.
    1:06:57 I do believe, I do believe, and I, and I, and I, I mean, obviously this is just human nature.
    1:06:58 Yeah.
    1:07:04 But yeah, but the equivalent of the taxi commission in the Uber case was these real estate professionals
    1:07:07 and a lot of places we had them lobbying to have us outlawed.
    1:07:09 They’re not licensed.
    1:07:11 How can they make an appraisal?
    1:07:13 You know, whatever, whatever thing they’re going to make up.
    1:07:16 We knew we’re on really strong legal ground.
    1:07:23 And so we weren’t so worried about that, but the strategy for combating that resistance
    1:07:33 was literally probably the same thing you guys did at Uber, which was, we knew the legislators,
    1:07:40 state legislators, not to mention federal legislators, were big fans of the site and the service.
    1:07:41 Yeah.
    1:07:42 Okay.
    1:07:49 And so all we had to do was make sure we just activated that latent love for the product
    1:07:54 itself and made it obvious that this way is the future way.
    1:07:58 And the lobbyists got nowhere and it was overcome.
    1:07:58 Yeah.
    1:08:05 In the case of Uber, I don’t want to make this overly about Uber, but also turns out when people
    1:08:09 have something that is incredibly convenient and useful, they do not want it taken away.
    1:08:10 No.
    1:08:17 And if elected officials like the service or are even ambivalent about the service, they
    1:08:18 do love getting reelected.
    1:08:24 And man, oh man, if there are a lot of your constituents using that app and you take it
    1:08:27 away, they’re not going to be super happy about it.
    1:08:29 Power to the people, baby.
    1:08:34 I mean, like you build magic stuff for masses of consumers that they want to talk about with
    1:08:38 their friends unprompted on the sidelines of the soccer game or what have you.
    1:08:39 Have you tried Uber?
    1:08:40 Have you tried Zillow?
    1:08:41 Have you tried Expedia?
    1:08:42 Whatever.
    1:08:46 It’s like, you’re definitely onto something and having popular support as we’re learning
    1:08:53 politically right now is having big populist support is ultimately where the power is derived.
    1:08:55 So sometimes you can go too far.
    1:08:57 We don’t need to talk about that, but of course you can go too far.
    1:09:02 And in fact, it may be that you need to go too far to establish where the frontier is.
    1:09:08 All right, well, I can’t not take the bait on that one.
    1:09:09 What does going too far look like?
    1:09:12 I was thinking specifically Uber.
    1:09:13 Oh, all right.
    1:09:18 Yeah, but because it did, you know, in some cities, municipalities or Airbnb.
    1:09:20 Airbnb, you can push too hard.
    1:09:28 You can push too hard and learn some lessons about how much leash you’re going to be given
    1:09:29 by the popular support.
    1:09:29 Yeah.
    1:09:34 Because it does tip into a point where like with Airbnb, you know, this is not a story.
    1:09:38 I know this guy’s a little bit, but it’s not a story I’m intimately familiar with, nor was I
    1:09:40 an early investor or anything.
    1:09:46 But, you know, they did piss off some homeowners, you know, in certain cities, not just the hotel owners.
    1:09:46 Yeah.
    1:09:52 And, you know, so they found the line and I think they managed it really, really well
    1:09:54 because they lead from the heart.
    1:09:59 You know, I think other companies may have not obviously led from the heart and had a difficulty.
    1:10:02 At Zillow, our job was a little easier.
    1:10:08 Also with those battles, I remember there were early on a number of locations that were
    1:10:10 incredibly important.
    1:10:10 Yeah.
    1:10:14 Not just from a ride volume perspective, but from a precedent setting perspective.
    1:10:15 Yeah.
    1:10:21 So if you win a few of those precedent setting battles, then you don’t necessarily have to
    1:10:23 do like a full frontal assault on the next.
    1:10:24 That’s right.
    1:10:27 10 locations because people have gotten the message.
    1:10:30 You can be a little more diplomatic about it, which people figure out over time.
    1:10:33 But then there’s the next country and then whatever.
    1:10:34 Anyway, there’s always something.
    1:10:38 But provocation marketing with a heart.
    1:10:43 With the end consumer’s best interests in mind, that’s a winner.
    1:10:46 So if you were teaching a class, maybe you already have.
    1:10:47 I have no idea.
    1:10:49 Related to provocation marketing.
    1:10:49 Yeah.
    1:10:50 All right.
    1:10:50 There you go.
    1:10:51 You get to choose.
    1:10:54 You can go back to your alma mater, wherever it might be.
    1:10:54 You’re teaching a class.
    1:10:55 Yeah.
    1:10:59 What would other elements of the class be?
    1:11:03 Other resources, principles, anything at all?
    1:11:07 While I try to figure out a structure here on the flat, to give a couple of other examples
    1:11:09 of stuff that I’ve been involved with.
    1:11:14 So I co-founded Glassdoor, which many people out there may know.
    1:11:21 And our provocation data marketing feature was how much money do people make?
    1:11:22 Okay.
    1:11:29 Not individuals, but the product manager at XYZ company or the developer or the customer service
    1:11:30 representative.
    1:11:36 And our model was, we knew that salaries was kind of a little bit taboo for a lot of people.
    1:11:38 So it was inherently secret and provocative.
    1:11:48 And then Robert Homan, who is my co-founder and the team, they had a data collection problem
    1:11:51 because it was ultimately user-generated content.
    1:11:57 People would need to share their salaries in a way that we believed in order to get enough
    1:12:01 data to provide anything interesting to everybody else.
    1:12:08 And so their innovation, after kind of hand-cranking it with survey, their innovation was give to get.
    1:12:11 You show me yours, I’ll show you mine.
    1:12:13 Very good.
    1:12:14 That’s very clever.
    1:12:15 Very clever.
    1:12:18 And say, “Hey, I’ll give you a little taste, but if you want to see any more data,
    1:12:22 you’ve got to share your salary and your title and your company, we promise you’ll be anonymous.
    1:12:24 And do a company review.”
    1:12:30 How many people screwed that up were the only person in that position?
    1:12:31 I guess it has to be logic.
    1:12:32 And we had protocols for that.
    1:12:32 Okay.
    1:12:36 We did have protocols for that, but it worked really.
    1:12:40 And we also then solicited feedback on what it’s like to work at the company.
    1:12:43 And, you know, CEOs are kind of public figures.
    1:12:46 So, okay, we’re going to let you review the CEO performance.
    1:12:51 And we knew all those things would provoke.
    1:12:53 We knew some CEOs would go crazy, you know.
    1:12:57 So there’s another example while I’m formulating a framework.
    1:13:01 Another one is with another former Expedia guy, Mark Britton.
    1:13:07 We founded a company called Avo, which was in the legal space.
    1:13:12 And we decided to rate attorneys, systematically rate attorneys.
    1:13:14 This had never happened before.
    1:13:16 It was just kind of like trip advisor for attorneys.
    1:13:18 You need to kind of trip advisor for anything, right?
    1:13:23 These are business models that are well-trodden now, but these were kind of innovative back in the day.
    1:13:28 And, of course, we were going to get sued because we were rating attorneys.
    1:13:30 Yeah.
    1:13:32 Definitely a great way to kick the hornet’s nest.
    1:13:39 Some investors, when we were raising money, I remember traveling around, you know, doing the Sand Hill Shuffle with Mark.
    1:13:43 And, you know, I remember some people saying, well, is this legal?
    1:13:45 You’re going to get, can you rate people?
    1:13:46 You know, you’re going to get sued.
    1:13:48 You know, I’m not going to invest.
    1:13:51 And we were like, yeah, we’re going to get sued.
    1:13:53 You know, did you see Die Hard?
    1:14:04 You remember Die Hard where the German terrorist leader is waiting for the last lock to open and he needs the power to go down in order to be able to get the bearer bombs out of the Nakatomi Plaza safe?
    1:14:05 Yeah.
    1:14:05 Okay.
    1:14:09 And the people are like, how is he going to get the power to go down?
    1:14:13 And he’s like, he said, ladies and gentlemen, I’ll give you the FBI.
    1:14:14 And they came in on those things.
    1:14:17 And the FBI, the playbook said, all right, cut the power.
    1:14:23 Anyway, that was exactly the launch strategy.
    1:14:25 Yvonne was like, here come the suits.
    1:14:26 I’ll give you the FBI.
    1:14:29 Anyways, perfect because it created all kinds of noise.
    1:14:31 I’m struggling with the structure.
    1:14:32 Let’s go with the lawsuits.
    1:14:32 All right.
    1:14:35 So the Sand Hill Shuffle, for people who don’t get that reference.
    1:14:50 So Sand Hill Road, if you could imagine going to like, this is not going to be the best comparison, but you go to like Kuwait and there’s a shopping mall with like Balenciaga and like Prada and all the fanciest brands, all the aspirational brands.
    1:14:55 Well, if there were such a place, but it was all the highest end venture capitalists, that would be Sand Hill Road.
    1:15:00 And now it’s more distributed, but still it’s a thing, right?
    1:15:00 Oh, yeah.
    1:15:05 If you go stay at the Rosewood and you’re right around the corner, that’s got its own stories.
    1:15:05 That’s a strange place.
    1:15:06 Fantastic.
    1:15:07 Fantastic.
    1:15:08 Love that.
    1:15:08 Love that part.
    1:15:13 And then you have, you name it, right?
    1:15:14 Everybody’s there.
    1:15:16 All the big players.
    1:15:18 And so that’s the Sand Hill Shuffle.
    1:15:21 So why not be afraid of lawsuits?
    1:15:26 What did you guys know that the guys who said, I’m not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole?
    1:15:35 Well, the founder CEO, Mark Britton, was my general counsel at Expedia, and he worked Securities Exchange Commission prior to that.
    1:15:36 He was a real attorney.
    1:15:41 And the way we did it, we were 100% convinced of our legal grounds.
    1:15:42 Yeah.
    1:15:46 And so people could still just consume so much energy, right?
    1:15:46 No doubt.
    1:15:50 So we raised money to deal with that, but we knew it was going to be pretty cheap lawsuits.
    1:15:54 And we could provide the legal, most of the legal billing ourselves anyway.
    1:15:57 And so it would be cheaper than hiring some fancy firm.
    1:15:59 We were convinced.
    1:16:03 And, you know, after we won the first few suits, you know, they lost steam.
    1:16:05 The lawyers lost steam on suing.
    1:16:11 So it caused some venture capitalists to not do it, but the more kind of disruptive-oriented folks were like, yeah, great.
    1:16:12 So what happened with that?
    1:16:14 It did pretty well.
    1:16:14 It did pretty well.
    1:16:15 We had trouble.
    1:16:21 So in a kind of TripAdvisor for legal sort of way, it did really well.
    1:16:32 Ultimately, these kind of TripAdvisor-y digital middlemen who were kind of SEO on one side, collecting Google search traffic on one side and trying to monetize leads on the other.
    1:16:37 You know, as time wore on, a lot of those business models got somewhat disintermediated.
    1:16:47 And so the protection against that is usually to go down into the workflow of the transactions of the industry, which is, say, what we’ve done at Zillow or what Expedia does.
    1:16:50 So could you explain that just one more time and maybe an example would be helpful?
    1:16:52 So let’s just say there’s a TripAdvisor for X.
    1:16:56 Like you said, they’re kind of harvesting traffic on the SEO side.
    1:16:59 So their pages are engineered in such a way.
    1:16:59 That’s right.
    1:17:07 Maybe also using ad spend to drive traffic to these reviews, which are then monetized on some level.
    1:17:08 That’s right.
    1:17:12 Some people can’t see, but by selling those leads out the other side of the marketplace.
    1:17:12 Right.
    1:17:14 So literally a lead middleman.
    1:17:15 Got it.
    1:17:15 Yeah.
    1:17:16 Lead middleman.
    1:17:17 How would they get disintermediated?
    1:17:27 Well, Michael Porter, Five Forces, would say, look, if you have an over-dependency on any supply of customers, you’re strategically exposed for obvious reasons.
    1:17:31 If you have an over-dependency on any supplier, you’re strategically exposed.
    1:17:40 And so business strategy 101 says diversify your sources of customers and your sources of supply so that nobody gets too much leverage over you.
    1:17:43 Also, it’s like a single point of failure, right?
    1:17:44 Absolutely.
    1:17:47 Oop, factory went down because of X, Y, Z.
    1:17:48 That’s a problem.
    1:17:53 We’re dealing with that right now in the country because COVID discovered that we had lots of supply chain single points of failure.
    1:17:55 Anyway, we don’t need to sidetrack on that.
    1:18:06 So in that example, if you’re primarily getting your traffic from Google, paid or free, you’re developing a serious dependency on Google.
    1:18:13 And Google, of course, in its own search for increased value, starts looking vertical, which means down into your business.
    1:18:19 And so people probably noticed over the years that Google started doing reviews and then they did their own mess.
    1:18:21 So they’re doing their Yelp reviews and their TripAdvisor reviews.
    1:18:28 And then they started doing airline schedules and hotel bookings and restaurant reservations and, and, and.
    1:18:38 And so when the big guy that you’re getting all your customers from starts taking a more than passing interest in your business model because they want to capture more value, you better figure out something else.
    1:18:39 Yeah.
    1:18:39 Okay.
    1:18:46 So strategically speaking, my defense against that in my digital marketplaces has been twofold.
    1:18:50 One, build a giant brand that customers know and love.
    1:18:55 And therefore most of your traffic and customers comes directly to your app and sites.
    1:18:56 Okay.
    1:18:59 You have to have a brand to do that in order to have power.
    1:19:16 And then two, look down your funnel and look into the workflow of the business you’re in, be it travel or real estate or legal or jobs, you know, through for the verticals that I’ve done stuff in and make sure you become digitally integral to the workflow.
    1:19:18 You’re building tools for the industry.
    1:19:22 Ultimately, maybe even doing the transactions.
    1:19:23 Okay.
    1:19:29 And having a platform for the transactions and that in a nutshell is what Zillow’s long-term strategy is.
    1:19:39 We’re basically building a super app, a one-stop shop application for anybody who’s renting or buying soup to nuts, everything integrated, all the professionals plug in and workflow.
    1:19:41 And that we have a big brand.
    1:19:45 We source almost all of our customers directly, not all, but most.
    1:19:50 And we’re embedded in the workflow, solving real customer problems.
    1:19:52 And the business is great and growing.
    1:19:53 All right.
    1:19:55 So I haven’t forgotten about the provocation marketing class.
    1:20:00 However, I think this is a great place to buy you some more time and talk about naming.
    1:20:01 Okay.
    1:20:01 Oh.
    1:20:03 How do you name companies?
    1:20:04 You saw that blog post.
    1:20:08 I played around with blogging like all of us.
    1:20:12 You know, it really stuck with some and it didn’t with others.
    1:20:14 I probably only had like 10 posts on my blog.
    1:20:19 But one of them was naming because I’ve had a lot of fun naming companies.
    1:20:21 And I gave advice on naming.
    1:20:26 And I think the title of the post, the site it’s on is called hopperanddropper.com, which
    1:20:29 is a fly fishing term, but which is nobody’s gone to.
    1:20:30 So I only had 20 visitors.
    1:20:31 Tim being one.
    1:20:32 Lucky 21.
    1:20:37 I have a few rules about naming.
    1:20:45 First, when you’re trying to brand a company, if you’re building a consumer brand, especially you have kind of two broad ways you can go.
    1:20:47 The easy way and the hard way.
    1:20:53 And I’ll forgive the four-hour work week and the four-hour body, you know, but I’ll tell you that there are no shortcuts.
    1:20:56 You take the shortcut to the long road, my coach Jimmy says.
    1:20:57 Yeah.
    1:21:04 Anyway, the easy way is if you’re building a travel site to call it hotels.com, airline tickets.com, you know, you name it.
    1:21:07 Every category has a literal word.com.
    1:21:10 And the advantages to that are it’s easy to explain to people what you do.
    1:21:11 Yeah.
    1:21:17 And the disadvantages to that are you don’t own any brand of equity because you can’t own a word that previously exists.
    1:21:20 And so you’re non-distinct and non-distinctive.
    1:21:25 There’s an in-between way, which is to use an existing word, but make a new application of it.
    1:21:27 Apple, computer, Amazon.com.
    1:21:29 And that’s viable.
    1:21:33 But you have to build a new definition for that word, which those companies obviously did successfully.
    1:21:39 The hard way and the best way, I think, for consumers is to make up a word.
    1:21:45 Make up a word, which is super hard because you have to tell people what the word means.
    1:21:46 You have to define it for them.
    1:21:49 But once you do, you own that word.
    1:21:52 The definition of that word is yours and only yours.
    1:21:57 And so I like the hard path because I like building brands.
    1:22:02 And with provocation marketing, I think I can get a big audience early, which begins to familiarize people with the brand.
    1:22:07 So I was confident in my ability to, my and my team’s really ability to do that.
    1:22:09 Okay, so now when you’re making up a word, what do you do?
    1:22:10 And I think this is what you’re referring to.
    1:22:12 Okay, so high point Scrabble letters.
    1:22:13 Do you play Scrabble?
    1:22:16 It’s been a minute, but yes, I’ve played Scrabble.
    1:22:20 Okay, you know that there are different point numbers on each letter as you play Scrabble.
    1:22:23 And do you remember what the high point ones are?
    1:22:24 I don’t.
    1:22:24 Okay.
    1:22:28 Their Z is 10.
    1:22:29 X is 10.
    1:22:31 That’s the highest points you can get.
    1:22:33 A, E, I, O, U are 1.
    1:22:34 Here’s why.
    1:22:35 Q is 10 too.
    1:22:36 Here’s why.
    1:22:40 Z, X, and Q are super rare letters.
    1:22:42 A, E, I, O, U are super common.
    1:22:46 And so rule number one is pick the super rare letters.
    1:22:49 And pick them because they’re very distinctive.
    1:22:51 They jump off a page when you read.
    1:22:53 They stick in people’s brains in a way that’s not crowded.
    1:22:58 So all my stuff has Zs and Xs and some Qs actually too.
    1:23:02 Rule number two, fewer syllables is better than more.
    1:23:03 I kind of learned this lesson with Expedia.
    1:23:06 Expedia was too many syllables.
    1:23:08 It’s worked out fine.
    1:23:09 We’ve overcome that.
    1:23:11 The company’s overcome that now.
    1:23:13 But it was, in hindsight, it was a lot.
    1:23:19 I liked it because of rule number three, which is it was evocative of positive things, speed, expedition.
    1:23:25 So it said adventure and speed, and that all felt good in that word.
    1:23:26 But fewer syllables.
    1:23:32 I think two syllables is the sweet spot because I also want it to be a good dog name.
    1:23:37 So if the word could be a good dog name, you’re on to something like you can call for it.
    1:23:38 Zillow.
    1:23:41 Anyway, another one is it can be turned into a verb pretty easily.
    1:23:43 So pick a word that can be turned into a verb.
    1:23:48 So it probably, the dog name and verb probably means it ends in a vowel sound.
    1:23:53 And then the last one is people, double letters and palindromes are good too.
    1:23:55 So anything that is unique, a unique word form.
    1:23:58 Double letters, people remember, they jump off the page.
    1:24:03 And palindromes are words that are the same forward and backward spelled, right?
    1:24:05 So just interesting, interesting words.
    1:24:05 Yeah.
    1:24:06 Anyway, that’s my handbook.
    1:24:09 Palindrome, like my friend Mike Kim back in the day.
    1:24:12 I was struggling to think of one.
    1:24:13 I couldn’t pull one on the fly.
    1:24:13 Well done.
    1:24:14 Taco Cat.
    1:24:16 It’s a good game.
    1:24:17 So you’re in the game space.
    1:24:19 It’s the name of Taco Cat.
    1:24:22 That is a funny game, isn’t it?
    1:24:22 Yeah.
    1:24:22 It’s so stupid.
    1:24:24 It’s so fun.
    1:24:24 It’s so good.
    1:24:27 So I’m thinking of double letters.
    1:24:29 So there are names.
    1:24:30 Expedia had.
    1:24:31 X.
    1:24:32 Has an X.
    1:24:36 Good connotation with pre-existing words or concepts.
    1:24:36 Yep.
    1:24:38 Maybe one syllable too long.
    1:24:40 Then you got Zillow.
    1:24:41 Zillow, that’s a sweet spot.
    1:24:42 Kind of named it.
    1:24:45 I’m imagining this Labrador Retriever, right?
    1:24:46 Yeah.
    1:24:47 And starts with a Z.
    1:24:49 Like how many words start with a Z?
    1:24:50 That’s great.
    1:24:51 And two double letters, LLs.
    1:24:52 Soft ending.
    1:24:57 Double letter, but I’m not sure because I am not up to speed with my Scrabble.
    1:24:57 Glassdoor.
    1:25:01 Glassdoor in the mid, you know, in the middle.
    1:25:05 It was pretty evocative of having people peer is transparency.
    1:25:07 Power to the people and transparency is a big thing.
    1:25:12 And we really liked kind of looking in through the glass door inside of a company.
    1:25:17 Two syllables, not a great dog word, you know, but two double letters.
    1:25:19 So it kind of jumps off the page.
    1:25:21 It’s an interesting looking word.
    1:25:24 I would say we get a kind of a B on that.
    1:25:27 But Robert did a very good job with marketing that.
    1:25:27 So.
    1:25:28 All right.
    1:25:32 So if you need more time, I’m not going to forget about it.
    1:25:35 The provocation marketing curriculum.
    1:25:35 Yeah.
    1:25:38 And it could just be one seminar.
    1:25:39 It doesn’t have to be ongoing.
    1:25:42 Just if that complicates the envisioning process.
    1:25:48 Find a seven deadly sin zone, something that is emotionally core to us, okay?
    1:25:52 That you know is going to incite an emotional response.
    1:25:53 All right.
    1:25:54 Okay.
    1:25:56 So some topic that people are emotional about.
    1:26:06 And then go address some sacred cow, you know, some taboo or sacred cow in that space.
    1:26:11 Most of the ideas that you could probably think of with that outline would be really negative.
    1:26:14 And then get rid of all those.
    1:26:18 Because I do believe a cheap way to get attention is to scare people.
    1:26:19 Okay.
    1:26:20 But I think it’s cheap.
    1:26:23 It’s a cheap way to lead is to scare people.
    1:26:25 Effective, but cheap.
    1:26:30 And it doesn’t make people feel good to be scared.
    1:26:37 So if you’re building a brand and a service, you want people to be provoked, but feel good.
    1:26:39 Or tickled.
    1:26:40 Or entertained.
    1:26:41 You know.
    1:26:44 And so that is where I would head with the seminar.
    1:26:48 And then we end up brainstorming about getting people’s ideas for that.
    1:26:50 Let’s touch on briefly.
    1:26:51 Mention Bill Gurley.
    1:26:52 Of course, famous venture capitalist.
    1:26:54 He’s been on the show.
    1:26:55 Brilliant guy.
    1:26:56 Also quite hilarious.
    1:26:57 And local.
    1:26:58 And local.
    1:26:58 Hey, Bill.
    1:26:59 Yeah.
    1:26:59 Yeah.
    1:27:01 He’s right down a couple of blocks from where we’re sitting right now.
    1:27:07 You have spent time at Benchmark Capital, which way back in the day, I mentioned this to Bill,
    1:27:12 when I first moved to Silicon Valley, a book was recommended to me called E-Boys.
    1:27:13 Oh, yeah.
    1:27:14 Way back in the day.
    1:27:18 And putting aside how Bill Mayer may or may not feel about it, we didn’t really get into it.
    1:27:25 I’m sure there’s lots of stuff that could stand some fact-checking, but it was incredibly inspirational and so entertaining.
    1:27:27 I mean, this was the heyday, right?
    1:27:30 I mean, this was just rocket ships everywhere.
    1:27:31 So fun to read.
    1:27:35 So you’ve spent time at and with Benchmark.
    1:27:39 What led you to that?
    1:27:43 Was that kind of biding time until you figured out which next big swing to take?
    1:27:44 What was the motivation?
    1:27:54 And then also, what did you learn there or what came into greater resolution or clarity while you were there?
    1:27:54 Yeah, okay.
    1:28:02 So as we chatted about before, when I was coming with my family back from sabbatical,
    1:28:10 I’m a big believer in the sabbatical in Italy and was considering the next career move,
    1:28:16 I got to know first Bruce Dunleavy at Benchmark and then Bill and the other guys.
    1:28:25 I did read E-Boys then too, which was romantic kind of in a weird way, but for business geeks like me and you maybe, romantic.
    1:28:31 And I also knew that I had a personality that did want to have my fingers in a lot of stuff.
    1:28:33 You did.
    1:28:33 I did.
    1:28:34 I knew that.
    1:28:37 I liked to do lots of things and I wanted to do lots of things and I could do lots of things.
    1:28:39 I could think about lots of things.
    1:28:47 And so in the course of trying to figure out prior to Zillow, trying to figure out what to do, I got to know those guys really well.
    1:28:50 You know, they invited me to a bunch of stuff to sit in on stuff.
    1:28:51 I knew I would be good at that.
    1:28:53 I knew I liked doing that.
    1:28:59 And then a condition with Lloyd Frank of doing the Zillow thing and taking the CEO title, I said,
    1:29:02 look, you know, I’m going to do a bunch of other things too.
    1:29:05 I’m going to start more companies and I’m going to do the venture capital thing.
    1:29:06 And he’s like, oh, good.
    1:29:06 No problem.
    1:29:19 And so as a way to keep myself stimulated and seeing lots of stuff and get down to the valley, I was in Seattle, which was not really a venture pop-ed at the time.
    1:29:20 Cloud computing hadn’t happened yet.
    1:29:25 We did have Amazon, Expedia, and Microsoft, but, you know.
    1:29:28 And so the action on the cutting edge was down in the valley.
    1:29:31 I had some boards I was on down there as well.
    1:29:42 And so I took the venture partner job with Benchmark, which is a pretty ill-defined position, as a way to keep me going to the valley and keep me in the flow of the latest stuff.
    1:29:43 And I really loved that.
    1:29:47 I do believe that ended up benefiting all the other stuff I was doing as well.
    1:29:50 I really loved that, you know, love that team.
    1:29:51 I love that team to this day.
    1:29:53 How did it benefit the other things?
    1:29:59 Was it just seeing around corners, kind of getting an idea of what’s coming before most other people have a chance to?
    1:29:59 Yeah.
    1:30:02 And thinking of new ideas for companies too.
    1:30:09 But I’m a big believer, there are some companies that hold on to their people and say, you can’t go do other things.
    1:30:10 Don’t sit on other boards.
    1:30:15 I really like executives that are on my teams to have another board.
    1:30:18 And if you love it, set it free.
    1:30:23 If you’re scared about losing people and you’re being too retentive, that means you’re too insular, probably.
    1:30:26 And you got to give to get.
    1:30:34 If you give time and get interested in other business models, you help them, but you end up learning a bunch of stuff for your own company.
    1:30:37 I’ve learned so much from sitting on the board of Netflix that I’ve imported to my other companies.
    1:30:42 Can you explain, just for folks who may not be familiar, what does it mean to sit on a board?
    1:30:44 What does that actually mean?
    1:30:47 It depends board to board, I’m sure, on responsibilities and expectations.
    1:30:54 But along with that, you must have lots of requests to join X, Y, or Z boards.
    1:30:57 How do you choose the boards to be a part of?
    1:31:07 What it means to sit on a board is when a company’s private, it means help the CEO and the leadership team build the company.
    1:31:18 So it’s really being an advisor and a coach and somebody with a lot of business building experience to help pick the right strategy.
    1:31:23 You’re not running anything, but you’re basically coaching the entrepreneurs who oftentimes are less experienced.
    1:31:26 Sometimes not, but oftentimes less experienced.
    1:31:32 And I would always recommend assembling a board of people with real experience who are going to be engaged.
    1:31:33 And so it’s a company building exercise.
    1:31:39 And then when fundraising, it’s time to fundraise, can totally help with the next fundraising, can help with recruiting.
    1:31:43 One of the very best at this is, I mean, there’s so many good ones.
    1:31:48 Bill is really good, as you’ve seen in the Uber case, at really helping build companies.
    1:31:49 Okay.
    1:31:51 And a public company is a little different.
    1:31:54 Yeah, I had one thing, and I’ve never been on a board.
    1:31:54 Really?
    1:31:57 Yeah, no, I’ve dodged it, I guess, in a sense.
    1:31:59 So you have a negative impression?
    1:32:00 No, no, it’s not a negative impression.
    1:32:02 You dodged it.
    1:32:06 Well, I feel like, yeah, dodge is a strong verb to use.
    1:32:08 That was a missile coming at you, and you-
    1:32:19 I have felt like I, at the time when these opportunities have come up, that I did not have clear criteria, and I don’t want to commit to things reactively.
    1:32:20 Yeah, okay.
    1:32:21 Which is part of the reason why I’m asking you.
    1:32:21 Okay, got it.
    1:32:31 And also, it seems like, and definitely correct me if I’m wrong, but another responsibility of a board is to fire leadership if it comes down to that.
    1:32:41 So it can be better roses and looking forward to the future and a lot of good things, but it’s also, it also comes with responsibilities to handle the tough times.
    1:32:46 And that’s probably the most, especially for a public company, those are the most important times, too.
    1:32:50 But when you’re company building as a private company, it’s a little less important.
    1:32:51 Yeah.
    1:32:52 That’s good context.
    1:32:56 But it’s something that I’ve been, I’m not necessarily reconsidering because I’ve-
    1:32:56 I think you should.
    1:32:57 I think you’d be good.
    1:32:58 Okay, tell me.
    1:32:59 Well, you’re a coach.
    1:33:00 Yeah.
    1:33:01 That’s all it is.
    1:33:02 Okay.
    1:33:04 I mean, it’s what it primarily is.
    1:33:09 You’re instinctively a coach, and you have a lot of experience sets, and you look for far analogies.
    1:33:14 You look for, oh, this situation here is a lot like this other situation, and that makes you a good communicator.
    1:33:17 And that is oftentimes what good coaching is.
    1:33:25 I kind of in, I shouldn’t say inadvertently, because it’s not inadvertent, but informally do that already, right?
    1:33:28 With a lot of the founders that I’m involved with.
    1:33:29 Which is fine, too.
    1:33:29 Yeah.
    1:33:35 But it’s that same, in the best of circumstances, it is that same way on a board.
    1:33:35 Mm-hmm.
    1:33:36 Okay?
    1:33:44 And those are the only boards that I’m involved with, is those that are really there to coach and give advice.
    1:33:51 Sometimes, oftentimes, in a public company, when you get into the public markets, where your responsibilities are a little different.
    1:33:51 Yeah.
    1:33:55 You have these hardcore responsibilities to represent shareholders.
    1:34:00 And the only real power you have is kind of capital allocation a little bit, and who is the CEO?
    1:34:04 Capital allocation, meaning how do they spend their funds?
    1:34:10 Raising money, raising money, spending money, usually not to the budgetary, but big, big acquisitions, whatever.
    1:34:16 Big changes in the cap table, in the balance sheet, that will affect shareholders.
    1:34:16 Yeah.
    1:34:16 Okay.
    1:34:17 Got it.
    1:34:32 Oftentimes, public companies, depending on their age, usually as they get older, they stop acting like a private board, where it’s really about the strategy and coaching and helping and building, and then becomes more about institutional shareholder services, rates, directors.
    1:34:33 What is that?
    1:34:34 Oh, wow.
    1:34:34 Yeah.
    1:34:35 Okay.
    1:34:38 So, they’re like, the lawyer’s competing to have good ratings on AVO.
    1:34:39 Kind of.
    1:34:40 Okay.
    1:34:40 Kind of.
    1:34:41 And then when a board-
    1:34:42 This is something I haven’t heard anything about.
    1:34:53 If a board tips into, let’s call them professional directors, who are really worried about their board director reputation, it becomes more about them and process and CYA.
    1:34:55 Cover your ass.
    1:34:55 Yeah.
    1:34:57 Because you only get sued, whatever.
    1:34:58 If you don’t look bad, whatever.
    1:35:00 Versus, let’s build a company.
    1:35:01 Yeah, that doesn’t sound fun.
    1:35:04 I’ve really actually never had a board tip into that.
    1:35:10 I’ve had some boards devolve into finger pointing and what have you, but in the private space, right?
    1:35:10 Yeah.
    1:35:16 So, I’m on a few public boards, but they’re all really their strategy and how can we grow and
    1:35:18 how can we help you and how’s the team doing?
    1:35:24 And so, if I don’t get a good ISS rating, which I have some of the worst there are out there.
    1:35:25 Really, I do.
    1:35:26 Wait, wait, wait.
    1:35:28 Who actually determines the rating?
    1:35:34 I don’t really know the process and I don’t really give a rip, but some survey, it’s going to stick up job, these things.
    1:35:37 They stick up job.
    1:35:39 They rate, give us what we want or else.
    1:35:41 Look, it’s like bond ratings or whatever.
    1:35:47 These ratings firms, they do ratings and then they sell consulting services to the customers.
    1:35:48 It’s just a classic.
    1:35:58 And mutual funds and ETFs, whatever, hire them and they can’t track every company, so they look at the ratings and how we should vote on the proxy issue and blah, blah, blah.
    1:36:05 Anyway, I’ve got very low ratings for lots of nonsensical reasons, but I don’t care.
    1:36:05 Yeah, yeah.
    1:36:06 Okay.
    1:36:14 I personally don’t care, but a board that’s full of directors who really do care is not as fun.
    1:36:17 Framework for you, which you asked.
    1:36:24 So, Greg Maffay, who’s on my board at Zillow and who I’ve worked with for a long time, I mentioned already, and Jay Hogue kind of gave me the same advice.
    1:36:26 Jay’s another venture capitalist who I work a lot with.
    1:36:27 We’re on boards together.
    1:36:34 A good construct that Greg told me early in my career was, is it local?
    1:36:35 Is it fun?
    1:36:36 Is it lucrative?
    1:36:38 Yeah.
    1:36:39 It’s a good place to start.
    1:36:41 Those are good starting points.
    1:36:45 So, you can zoom now a little bit, but you really don’t want to spend your life traveling.
    1:36:53 So, that’s another thing that put me on the sidelines is I knew a few people who, they just seemed like traveling salesmen in a sense.
    1:36:58 It was like George Clooney from up in the air when he was just traveling around a different city area.
    1:37:00 You know, every other week.
    1:37:01 Soul crushing.
    1:37:01 Yeah.
    1:37:02 It’s not quite that way.
    1:37:03 Yeah.
    1:37:09 I mean, so local is, Greg, when he laid it out for him, he’s like, it’s got to be two out of three at least.
    1:37:11 If it can be all three, trifecta score.
    1:37:14 And lucrative meaning potentially lucrative.
    1:37:16 Like, the business is, you would buy the stock.
    1:37:17 Right.
    1:37:17 As a gross stock.
    1:37:18 You know, so.
    1:37:24 And this is as good a point as any, to just explain the, I guess, compensation structure.
    1:37:25 How does it work?
    1:37:26 You get an equity grant.
    1:37:28 You have options to invest over time.
    1:37:31 And I suppose it depends on the state of the, and stage of the company.
    1:37:33 But.
    1:37:36 Private companies often are not compensated because you’re the venture capitalist.
    1:37:37 Right.
    1:37:37 Okay.
    1:37:38 So you’re the funder.
    1:37:42 So you’re doing it because you’ve already, you already own a chunk of the company.
    1:37:42 Yep.
    1:37:43 So that’s your compensation.
    1:37:47 And most startups, most private companies can’t afford to pay.
    1:37:52 Now, the late stage startups, the forever startups now, like I’m sure Stripe directors make a lot of money.
    1:38:00 Public companies, you know, it’s really just like salary bands based on the size of the company.
    1:38:09 I mean, it’s like for most kind of mid-cap public companies, I would guess it’s $200,000 to $350,000 a year.
    1:38:16 Most companies for big meetings, committee meetings, whatever, not a huge chunk of time, you know, so it’s nice.
    1:38:20 And then usually they enable the directors to choose if they want it.
    1:38:25 And some part has to be in stock and some could be in cash, you know.
    1:38:27 Anyway, I don’t have a ton of experience with those.
    1:38:31 So fun, local, lucrative.
    1:38:32 Potentially lucrative.
    1:38:32 Potentially lucrative.
    1:38:37 And fun has got to be like, it’s a proxy for maybe it’s a cool company, whatever, that’s fun.
    1:38:39 But really it’s the boardroom dynamic.
    1:38:48 You look around the table and at the leadership team and are these interesting, is it a collegial, everybody’s rowing together in the same boat kind of situation?
    1:38:56 Or is it a, we got old factions fighting and these guys want that and these ones want that and like, you know, run away.
    1:38:57 Less Game of Thrones.
    1:38:58 Yeah, exactly.
    1:38:59 Like no fun.
    1:39:00 No fun.
    1:39:01 All right.
    1:39:05 So we’re drinking our carbonated Japanese citrus.
    1:39:05 Yeah.
    1:39:07 Yuzu coconut water.
    1:39:11 Feeling very well hydrated and infused.
    1:39:22 And that is as smooth slash awkward a segue as possible to do a callback to something you mentioned earlier, which was da-da-da-da-da.
    1:39:31 And then I started paying attention to things I had neglected before that and da-da-da-da, including health and body, things like that.
    1:39:34 So when did that happen?
    1:39:44 Was it a gradual development of wellness habits, self-care, or was there a reckoning at some point?
    1:39:44 What happened?
    1:39:55 Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of people, it’s a health reckoning for them or for somebody else that kind of shocks them into, you know, and maybe an overlay of general age.
    1:39:58 You know, the substrate is age.
    1:40:03 And ultimately, everybody probably figures this out.
    1:40:03 Yeah.
    1:40:04 Some later, sooner than others.
    1:40:06 What is your age now?
    1:40:06 I have no idea.
    1:40:07 I can’t tell.
    1:40:07 I’m 57.
    1:40:08 Okay, God.
    1:40:09 Yeah.
    1:40:09 Wow.
    1:40:10 Yeah.
    1:40:12 You really held on to the youthful glow.
    1:40:13 Yeah, right.
    1:40:14 Everything’s falling apart.
    1:40:15 Look at me.
    1:40:15 Oh, God.
    1:40:18 American history acts as of 10 years ago.
    1:40:21 And then it’s just the crow’s feet are turning into crow’s legs.
    1:40:26 But you seem to be very active.
    1:40:26 I am.
    1:40:29 And for me, it was that same thing.
    1:40:30 It was a catalyst.
    1:40:32 It was a pretty sudden external catalyst.
    1:40:37 Not my health, but my wife’s and children’s.
    1:40:41 And so I have three kids, Will, Josie, and Russell.
    1:40:42 And Josie and Russell are twins.
    1:40:47 And twin pregnancies are high risk.
    1:40:47 Yep.
    1:40:48 Definitionally.
    1:41:01 And so I was age maybe 35, 34, running Expedia as a really young public company CEO.
    1:41:09 The company’s doing great, but I had to deal with stuff like 9-11 during the travel business.
    1:41:18 And I had been a pretty, like, not quite sleep under the desk, but kind of work all the time kind of guy for a long time.
    1:41:19 Because I love my work.
    1:41:20 Whatever.
    1:41:24 Like, we all kind of, we socialized with Microsoft people and then Expedia people.
    1:41:25 And we just lived, this was our lives.
    1:41:27 We talked about it, we talked about it, we talked about it at dinner.
    1:41:29 So I was pretty neglectful.
    1:41:40 While I was a weekend warrior type basketball player and tennis player and snowboarder, I didn’t yet realize that I had to maintain myself in order to be able to do those things.
    1:41:44 So I was just working too hard, working all the time.
    1:41:48 When Sarah was pregnant with Josie and Russell, she went into labor really early.
    1:41:50 We were on our way up to Whistler.
    1:42:02 And she was, for those who understand these things, I think she was 27 weeks pregnant out of a 40-week typical gestation period, which is very early.
    1:42:05 That’s not very, very early, but it’s danger early.
    1:42:09 And so we were driving on our way.
    1:42:10 So I was like, I think something’s going on.
    1:42:12 Let’s go stop by the hospital.
    1:42:16 So we stopped by the hospital just so her OB could check her out.
    1:42:22 And she was partially dilated and just some small contractions.
    1:42:25 And Sarah thought nothing of it.
    1:42:26 The shoemaker’s kids have no shoes.
    1:42:31 Sarah’s like, oh, fine, I’ll just keep the seat reclined as we drive up to Whistler.
    1:42:37 And her doctor, Edith, said, not only are you not going up to Whistler, you’re not going home.
    1:42:40 You are going to be admitted to the hospital.
    1:42:41 We’re going to put you on muscle relaxants.
    1:42:50 So that began a kind of a six-week, very scary period of my life and her life, where she was in the hospital making sure that the babies didn’t get born.
    1:42:54 I was taking care of my three-year-old, Will.
    1:42:57 And then everything turned out great.
    1:43:01 She carried them to 35 weeks or something, 36 weeks.
    1:43:02 The kids were perfect.
    1:43:04 The birth was a little hard.
    1:43:05 The kids were perfect.
    1:43:06 And it all worked out.
    1:43:16 But in the course of that period of time, it got me to reassess my life and how I led my life and what my priorities were and how I needed to take care of myself mentally and physically.
    1:43:21 I kind of had the realization that for sustainability, I was going to have to start doing a bunch of things.
    1:43:26 If I wanted to do the things I love to do for the long term, I was going to have to really build my foundation.
    1:43:29 I decided to quit my job at that point, too.
    1:43:31 I was still CEO.
    1:43:33 IAC had just acquired the company.
    1:43:37 And I made the decision at that point, but that this lifestyle was not.
    1:43:39 I didn’t need it.
    1:43:39 Needed a change.
    1:43:45 And what were some of the changes?
    1:43:46 Like, how did you layer things in?
    1:43:48 Did you boil the ocean all at once?
    1:43:50 And I was like, all right, here are the 12 new things I’m starting.
    1:43:52 Did you layer it in?
    1:43:56 And would you have done anything differently?
    1:43:58 I started just exploring things.
    1:44:03 The big change was we moved to Italy six months later or maybe eight months later.
    1:44:07 And I developed a whole new set of things I did when we were living in Italy.
    1:44:12 I took up road biking, which is a very Italian, a social Italian thing to do, which was great.
    1:44:13 It was great for making friends, too.
    1:44:17 But I had a period of time after that where I was in Seattle.
    1:44:23 And I started, you know, I remember the first real class kind of thing I’d ever done was hot yoga.
    1:44:25 And I was like, wow, this is amazing.
    1:44:27 I feel incredible after I come out of that class.
    1:44:33 And it’s, you know, strength and some conditioning, I guess, and really interesting and kind of a mental thing, too.
    1:44:35 And I started doing that.
    1:44:42 And then I didn’t hire a trainer until much later, but I eventually got there.
    1:44:45 I didn’t lift weights for a long, long time.
    1:44:47 I was more just kind of running.
    1:44:48 I took up running.
    1:44:49 I ran a couple of marathons.
    1:44:53 You know, I discovered my body was not built for, my joints were not built for,
    1:44:53 for marathons.
    1:44:55 Anyway, I did a bunch of things, Tim.
    1:45:05 Recognizing that I felt better when my body felt better and my mind felt better when my body felt better.
    1:45:16 And it’s just built over time to the age I am now where, like, the physiology of what’s happening to my body and my bone density and my muscle mass at my age.
    1:45:25 It’s like, I’m, like, continually been ramping up how much I do, A, because it makes me feel good, but B, because I’m, you know, just age-wise deteriorating.
    1:45:28 And if I want to snowboard, I’ve snowboarded 35 days this year.
    1:45:30 And it’s been amazing.
    1:45:34 And, like, if I want to keep doing stuff like that, I’ve got to be strong.
    1:45:39 So what does the current regimen look like, generally speaking?
    1:45:45 I’m sure there are exceptions, and maybe you travel or go to various places, but what does the general regimen look like?
    1:45:49 Probably a couple hours total of Zone 2-y type stuff.
    1:45:52 You know, bike, rowing, maybe tread.
    1:45:57 My knees kind of are not great running, but the treadmill, a softer treadmill works.
    1:45:59 But the Peloton is my favorite one there.
    1:46:05 And then weightlifting, different body parts, maybe four times a week.
    1:46:08 And then a lot of just play stuff.
    1:46:09 What kind of play?
    1:46:12 A lot of snowboarding and play sports.
    1:46:13 I play tennis.
    1:46:15 I like to do a lot of stuff.
    1:46:16 With my body and the world.
    1:46:18 How do you fit that in?
    1:46:20 I mean, you’ve got a lot going on.
    1:46:21 You like building.
    1:46:28 You continually, as our mutual friend Chris Saka, has in one of his suggested topics for exploration.
    1:46:30 Since I asked him.
    1:46:32 Like, you continually put yourself back in the arena.
    1:46:33 Yeah.
    1:46:34 Right?
    1:46:34 As a builder.
    1:46:35 Yeah.
    1:46:38 You are on several boards.
    1:46:40 I mean, there are demands.
    1:46:42 I’m sure there’s a lot of inbound that you say no to.
    1:46:44 How do you think about the self-care?
    1:46:46 Is it sort of the first thing that you block?
    1:46:46 Yeah.
    1:46:47 And then that’s it.
    1:46:54 For me now, priority wise, that is, I mean, my family and my health is essential to my family’s health, too.
    1:46:57 So, my family and my health and my state of mind.
    1:46:59 But I am not operating.
    1:47:07 About seven, eight months ago, after my second or third stint as CEO at Zillow, I kind of kicked myself back upstairs.
    1:47:11 And so, I’m no longer the day-to-day CEO, which is terrific.
    1:47:12 It’s helped.
    1:47:17 But I’ve always been the guy who my joke was, I’m very much a delegator.
    1:47:21 I’m very much a pick great people and then give them lots of space.
    1:47:33 And actually, a leadership development technique I often coach is for a senior leader or middle management type leader, I encourage them to really take a vacation and disappear.
    1:47:38 And most people think that’s going to be harmful to their business or their career.
    1:47:44 And what I try to coach them on is, no, that is actually the way you develop your leaders.
    1:47:46 One of the ways you develop your leaders.
    1:47:52 Because if you’re really disconnected, you’re on a surf trip in Indonesia and you have zero connectivity.
    1:47:54 For how long would you recommend?
    1:47:54 For two weeks.
    1:47:54 Yeah.
    1:47:55 Okay?
    1:47:58 Do it for two weeks and be disconnected.
    1:48:02 And your teams are going to have to figure out how to deal with stuff that’s important.
    1:48:09 And they’re going to have to create systems and policies and rules ahead of time that will outlive the surf trip.
    1:48:10 That’s true.
    1:48:16 But from a leadership perspective, sometimes the real leader of an organization is not necessarily the one with the title.
    1:48:24 And when somebody’s really disconnected, the senior leader is disconnected, leadership is sort of an emergent property.
    1:48:25 Okay?
    1:48:26 And it kind of emerges.
    1:48:32 So this is a long way of saying, I kind of have always felt that way about my universe, too.
    1:48:42 I believe the most secure people are willing to let go and roll the dice on the other people and answer the question, who is your successor?
    1:48:44 If you were hit by a bus, who would take over?
    1:48:45 Okay?
    1:48:54 And the less secure people, the more insecure people, put themselves in a position where they seem indispensable to senior management and couldn’t possibly leave.
    1:48:54 Okay?
    1:48:55 That person is not promotable.
    1:49:03 The person who has cultivated leaders under them, that person is totally promotable, even though that person is more expendable, too.
    1:49:03 Yeah.
    1:49:04 Right?
    1:49:05 And so it’s that fine thing.
    1:49:08 Long-winded way of me saying, I’ve always had a lot of things going on.
    1:49:14 My joke was, you know, if I’m doing my job really, really perfectly, I can be on my surfboard.
    1:49:15 Okay?
    1:49:20 And nobody knows when you don’t show up to work if you have eight jobs.
    1:49:24 Everybody always thinks you’re working on the other thing.
    1:49:27 I’m being glib, and it gets a little bit of a chuckle.
    1:49:32 But I am a seriously leverage-oriented person.
    1:49:33 So it’s not that hard.
    1:49:34 Yeah.
    1:49:42 What are other ways that you identify opportunities for leverage or think about leverage?
    1:49:53 In a life context, it is just surrounding yourself with great people who care, who have skills and who care about whatever the mission is, be it building a business or building a family.
    1:50:04 Like, Sarah is amazingly smart and capable and cares, and, like, the stuff that she’s in charge of is going to happen well.
    1:50:09 You know, that’s an unbelievable feature to have in a partner as you’re looking for a partner.
    1:50:13 And, you know, lots of stuff matters in finding a partner.
    1:50:15 But, like, it’s really a partnership.
    1:50:18 If you guys are going to have a baby, that’s a business of sorts.
    1:50:19 You know?
    1:50:22 I think it’s mostly about picking the right people.
    1:50:33 Any recommendations for people who are hiring folks they have not known for a long period of time?
    1:50:36 Any recommendations for the hiring process?
    1:50:39 Because a lot of people interview well who don’t necessarily perform well.
    1:50:40 They know what to say.
    1:50:43 And reference checks often are conflicted.
    1:50:48 I’ve had the worst luck with taking reference checks at face value.
    1:50:50 There’s some ways to kind of work with that.
    1:50:50 Yeah.
    1:50:52 Two things, I would say.
    1:50:56 One is my favorite section of the resume, I guess now LinkedIn.
    1:51:02 It’s not really a section on LinkedIn, but it’s always in the very bottom, which is the interests.
    1:51:19 I want to get somebody, if in an interview situation, talking about their interests and why they put them there and then just asking them basic questions and watching whether or not they have any passion.
    1:51:21 You know, to see a real spark.
    1:51:27 You know, because if they put it there, that is what they’re interested in and they’d better be able to light up on it.
    1:51:31 When I was earlier in my career, I would always make up business cases around some interest.
    1:51:34 You know, how big is the ski industry because you put skiing, whatever.
    1:51:36 You know, and that was always a fun stepping off point.
    1:51:39 So finding people’s passion.
    1:51:41 I want to find people who are passionate people.
    1:51:47 And then the second thing is get used to pulling the pitcher off the mound quickly.
    1:51:49 Firing someone.
    1:51:49 Yep.
    1:51:50 Okay.
    1:51:52 It’s hard when you’re early in your career.
    1:51:54 It’s not as hard later.
    1:51:58 All of my mistakes as a leader have been leaving.
    1:52:04 Almost all of them have been leaving the pitcher on the mound too long, hoping that the arm would get better.
    1:52:09 What have you learned in terms of process for firing?
    1:52:14 Any approach, go-to phrases, rules?
    1:52:17 If you’ve got someone, you’re going on your two-week surf trip.
    1:52:25 There’s someone below you who is going to fill that leadership void and he or she is going to have to fire someone.
    1:52:31 And they’re like, hey boss, I don’t want to bother you, but this is something I haven’t done before.
    1:52:32 Give me some advice.
    1:52:33 Yeah.
    1:52:35 Don’t do it via text.
    1:52:37 Be an upstanding person.
    1:52:38 You know, have some courage.
    1:52:40 You got to be face-to-face.
    1:52:42 But it’s actually not that hard.
    1:52:51 My advice would be, look, if you’re not happy with the performance of this person, I guarantee you the person isn’t happy either.
    1:52:57 Therefore, you can increase love in the world by releasing that person to find where that person belongs.
    1:52:59 That person belongs somewhere else.
    1:53:01 That person’s going to be happy somewhere.
    1:53:03 Help that person find that somewhere.
    1:53:07 But you’re going to be happier when you release that person.
    1:53:08 That person’s going to be happier too.
    1:53:16 And so, if you make it a partnership, if you make it a joint decision effectively, or at least align, get the interests aligned, which it almost always is.
    1:53:17 It’s not as hard.
    1:53:21 And when you do that, you naturally are being human.
    1:53:25 If you’re looking for shared alignment, that means you care.
    1:53:27 That means you’re showing heart.
    1:53:31 And having heart in this situation is really important.
    1:53:37 And then in terms of the delivery, the conversation, any tips on how to manage that?
    1:53:41 You do have to be ready for a lot of stuff to come up.
    1:53:47 And as the person in the power, holding power in this situation, you have to wear it.
    1:53:54 You have to understand and be sympathetic and non-argumentative in order to get people on the same page.
    1:53:59 Oftentimes, just like in life with anything, people really do need to get it out and be heard.
    1:54:01 And that’s great.
    1:54:02 That’s great.
    1:54:08 And then asking advice on the way out, too, like for voluntary or involuntary termination.
    1:54:09 Sometimes it’s hazy, right?
    1:54:09 You know?
    1:54:18 And soliciting information on the way out for yourself and the organization is often appreciated and often revealing, too.
    1:54:19 So, that’s good.
    1:54:20 Exit interview.
    1:54:26 Exit interview is important in as casual a setting as you can make, as you can muster.
    1:54:32 I believe the entrance, the one month post-start, is a really great time to get observations.
    1:54:33 From new people, too.
    1:54:35 They haven’t been fully indoctrinated yet.
    1:54:38 And they probably are good consultants right then.
    1:54:42 So, random question.
    1:54:43 I don’t know.
    1:54:44 You could be covered in tattoos.
    1:54:47 But what is the story of this tattoo?
    1:54:48 Family.
    1:54:49 All right.
    1:54:50 Five of us in the family.
    1:54:52 Things we love.
    1:54:54 So, it looks at a quick glance.
    1:54:55 It looks like a snowflake.
    1:54:56 But those are trees.
    1:54:58 It’s made up of five trees.
    1:55:00 It’s a snowflake in total shape.
    1:55:03 And it’s a starfish in the negative space.
    1:55:04 Uh-huh.
    1:55:13 My daughter, Josie, when she was 16, which is too young to get a tattoo, asked Sarah if she
    1:55:14 could get a tattoo.
    1:55:18 Or asked her more specifically, would she get a tattoo with her?
    1:55:21 And Sarah’s like, well, you met Sarah.
    1:55:22 Like, sure.
    1:55:26 And she’s like, and then brought it to me.
    1:55:28 And I was like, okay, let’s design one as a family.
    1:55:29 Yeah.
    1:55:30 No Wile E. Coyote.
    1:55:35 The first versions, you know those on the back of a minivan, the family of five with
    1:55:37 the stick figure mom and stick figure.
    1:55:38 That was what Josie drew.
    1:55:39 V1.
    1:55:41 Josie’s very creative.
    1:55:42 You’re creative, honey.
    1:55:44 But it was funny.
    1:55:45 That was the first version.
    1:55:49 And we were sharing different versions and iterating.
    1:55:55 And at some point, Sarah said, maybe we should bring this artist friend, Joe Park, into this.
    1:55:56 And he’d never designed a tattoo.
    1:55:58 We brought him, and he was super psyched to do it.
    1:56:03 So then he led the creative iterations, and we ended up with this.
    1:56:04 They look exactly the same, but they’re not.
    1:56:05 They’re all unique.
    1:56:08 They form a cohesive whole.
    1:56:08 Oh, the trees, you’re saying?
    1:56:09 The trees are unique, too.
    1:56:10 Mm-hmm.
    1:56:11 So, anyway.
    1:56:12 I dig it.
    1:56:12 Yeah.
    1:56:13 I love it.
    1:56:17 I was the only one who got it in a really visible place, and everybody else got jealous,
    1:56:20 because I like to be able to look at it and remember my family.
    1:56:24 And we did this maybe five, six, seven years ago.
    1:56:26 I thought we’d get more.
    1:56:29 Sarah’s gotten two more tattoos, but I haven’t gotten any more.
    1:56:32 You know, I think tattoos are, you don’t have any?
    1:56:32 Do you have some?
    1:56:33 I don’t.
    1:56:35 It’s a, very few people have one.
    1:56:37 Yeah.
    1:56:43 I have been, I’ve been considering getting my first, which is in some ways kind of similar.
    1:56:47 It’d actually be in very similar location right here with my dog’s paw prints.
    1:56:51 It’s hard for me to imagine regretting that.
    1:56:51 You won’t.
    1:56:52 Yeah, I don’t think I will.
    1:56:53 Yeah.
    1:56:53 Yeah.
    1:56:53 Yeah.
    1:56:55 So.
    1:57:00 We, uh, interestingly, our older boy, Will, was of age to get a tattoo.
    1:57:02 He was 18, I think, at the time, maybe 19.
    1:57:07 But the twins, it wasn’t legal to get one in Washington state or most states.
    1:57:13 And so Josie was actually going to high school for a year in Spain at the time, and Spain didn’t have that restriction.
    1:57:15 So she got the design and got it, got it in Spain.
    1:57:19 And we have that house in Montana, and Montana doesn’t have any restrictions.
    1:57:26 So on the way to go skiing one time, Russell, you know, went to some sketchy place in Bozeman and got the tattoo.
    1:57:28 So we got them all, we all got them in different places.
    1:57:29 It’s funny.
    1:57:42 Any other, uh, I mean, I guess getting a tattoo is not necessarily a recommendation you’re making, but any thoughts for, let’s just say there are people listening who are type A or otherwise builders,
    1:57:55 builders who can sometimes be consumed, perhaps, by the scale and scope of what they’re doing or hope to do, and they’re planning on kids or they have very young kids.
    1:57:57 What would your recommendations be to those people?
    1:58:04 For the planning on the kind of constant delayers, which there are a lot of, you know, maybe some right here.
    1:58:08 There are a lot of out there, okay?
    1:58:18 And I think the fundamental logic is, this is an important thing, and I don’t have enough time right now, and so I’ll wait till it’s a better time.
    1:58:22 There’s never a better time.
    1:58:24 There’s never a good time.
    1:58:27 So point number one is, it’s not going to get better.
    1:58:28 It’s not going to feel better.
    1:58:33 And then point number two is, we’re built for this.
    1:58:51 We are the successful evolutionary product of a lot of people who figured this out, which means we have a lot of encoded knowledge about how to do this and how to deal from our bodies and our minds and our relationships and even just how we parent.
    1:58:52 It’s encoded.
    1:58:53 A lot of it is encoded.
    1:58:54 So it’s, you know what?
    1:58:57 It’s probably going to work pretty well.
    1:58:59 And so, I don’t know if I’d call myself a birther.
    1:59:03 I’m an encourager of, like, let’s have more babies.
    1:59:12 And I’m a really big believer in how it’s such an important part of our own mental health to have, at least for me, to have children.
    1:59:23 And from a growth perspective, and it kind of, as we get older, our ego focus naturally, the diameter of our ego sphere gets broader and broader, and children just blow it way out.
    1:59:30 And that is really a positive for most people, to realize that their needs and wants are trivial.
    1:59:32 You know, I think that’s a positive.
    1:59:34 So anyway, I encourage it.
    1:59:39 Yeah, for me, it’s not a bad timing, looking for better timing thing.
    1:59:49 It’s more of a navigating the bizarre aspects of modern dating, being in my public slash semi-public position.
    1:59:57 And as someone who’s already, for a lot of good reasons, slow to trust, getting to a point where I feel like I can pull the trigger.
    2:00:01 I think that’s solvable, but it’s not trivial.
    2:00:03 I never had to deal with that, but I totally.
    2:00:05 How old were you guys when you met?
    2:00:07 22.
    2:00:08 Wow.
    2:00:09 Yeah.
    2:00:10 Good for you.
    2:00:11 In a pub in Cambridge, Mass.
    2:00:12 Look at that.
    2:00:13 Yeah.
    2:00:14 Maybe that’s my next move.
    2:00:14 No.
    2:00:16 Go pub crawling, Cambridge.
    2:00:17 It’s hard, though.
    2:00:20 I totally get what you’re saying.
    2:00:21 It’s hard.
    2:00:35 For the people with young kids and balancing things, I guess I would just always advise to don’t wait for an external catalyst to make sure you’re prioritizing your family life and your personal health.
    2:00:45 Because a lot of people out there are not doing that, and eventually it comes home to roost one way or another, you know, and the sooner you can kind of keep things in perspective.
    2:00:47 It’s kind of a confidence game in general.
    2:00:49 It’s a courage and confidence game in general.
    2:00:59 If you have high confidence in your abilities, there is no better time for at least, you know, the kinds of jobs in the sit at a desk, use a computer type jobs.
    2:01:07 There’s no better time in the history of the world to be able to have a good balance between having work and life interweave.
    2:01:13 I’m a huge believer in what I call cloud HQ, cloud headquarters at Zillow post-pandemic.
    2:01:24 I was a huge believer in office culture before that, but the pandemic opened my eyes to just how much more inclusive the cloud headquartered the Matt Mullenweg.
    2:01:29 Matt was very, you know, he was very influential on me early in the pandemic.
    2:01:39 You know, I had him blue jeans zoom in to an early company meeting early in COVID and lay out his game plan for the distributed corporation.
    2:01:41 Yeah, for people who don’t know, yeah.
    2:01:42 Super helpful.
    2:01:54 Yeah, Matt Mullenweg, generally associated with WordPress, founder and CEO of Automatic, spelled M-A-T-T-I-C, and pioneer of distributed workforces.
    2:02:06 And as a design principle from the outset has built that company to be distributed and therefore was very anti-fragile when COVID came along.
    2:02:09 And there were some other standout examples.
    2:02:11 I mean, Shopify did really well also.
    2:02:12 But you’re right.
    2:02:27 I think if this can’t lend itself, I mean, modern technology and the options available to some type of balance or the option to pull different levers where it would have been far difficult even 10 years ago.
    2:02:27 Yeah.
    2:02:31 But we can generalize and say it’s been great for moms, but it’s more than just moms.
    2:02:49 But it has enabled really smart, very experienced moms who may have historically decided to take the off-ramp into primarily momhood rather than primarily climbing the corporate ladder or just executive leadership path.
    2:02:50 It’s enabled them to come back.
    2:03:04 And likewise now, for a father, as long as the company doesn’t get angry when they see you in your car on the Zoom because you’re at a dentist appointment for your kid or something.
    2:03:11 As long as that doesn’t make the CEO get angry, because that’s not the way I did it when I came up and look how great I turned out.
    2:03:13 I’ve got to do it this way.
    2:03:16 It’s like I kind of chuckle when I listen to all that.
    2:03:19 I’m like, you people, open your minds.
    2:03:21 This opens doors.
    2:03:23 This doesn’t close doors.
    2:03:23 Yeah.
    2:03:25 So let me ask a couple of quick questions.
    2:03:39 They don’t need to have quick answers, but just as we start to land the plane, what books have you either gifted a lot to other people or re-read yourself?
    2:03:40 Either one.
    2:03:50 I am not your typical person, probably sitting in the seat and that maybe I am not a nonfiction business book.
    2:03:52 Sorry, Tim.
    2:03:53 Oh, that’s okay.
    2:03:53 Yeah.
    2:03:55 I tend not to read that stuff.
    2:04:00 The older I get, I occasionally will read a biography now, but they mean more now the older you get.
    2:04:07 But I am fully a, I’m a big reader and it’s fiction and generally good fiction.
    2:04:08 Although I do have, you know.
    2:04:09 Cheap thrills.
    2:04:11 Yeah, yeah, I do.
    2:04:11 I do.
    2:04:14 I really love beautiful, beautiful fiction.
    2:04:21 I dabble, I’ve always dabbled in the kind of science fiction, magical realism stuff as well.
    2:04:33 I believe for me at least escape from the cranked up quick twitch, always on alert operational stuff that business people go with.
    2:04:34 Yeah, exactly.
    2:04:35 To get my brain, my monkey brain.
    2:04:36 Okay.
    2:04:45 And to get my monkey brain to relax escaping into a fiction novel for me is just a fantastic release.
    2:04:51 So, with all that said, what stuff do I like and that I’ve gifted?
    2:04:53 Recently, I gifted The Oceans and the Stars.
    2:04:54 Do you know Mark Halperin?
    2:04:55 Oh, no.
    2:04:56 Okay.
    2:05:02 He’s a guy who’s a little older than I am and writes characters that are just about in my phase of life.
    2:05:05 Like a beautiful, luscious prose writer.
    2:05:06 Really smart.
    2:05:11 Wrote Soldier of the Great War and A Winter’s Tale and Freddy and Frederica.
    2:05:13 I don’t know if you’ve heard of any of these books.
    2:05:15 There’s a little bit of magic in them.
    2:05:17 Magic is a prime character in all these books.
    2:05:26 It’s this luscious prose and epic stories of war and romance and exploration and relationships.
    2:05:29 And this latest one is I highly recommend.
    2:05:38 It’s a kind of on the edge of retirement, just under admiral or like a low-level admiral in the U.S. Navy
    2:05:42 who almost becomes head of the DOD but doesn’t get it because he speaks his mind.
    2:05:47 And then he gets commissioned as a rebuke on this new, weird ship.
    2:05:48 And I’ll just say that.
    2:05:54 And that’s a setup for him taking this really more fast attack destroyer into the Middle East.
    2:05:56 And he’s kind of a war guy.
    2:05:57 He’s a vet.
    2:06:05 And he’s a pretty engaged political kind of, I call him an offensive realist in the John Mearsheimer mold.
    2:06:07 Kind of hawkish, would be perceived as hawkish.
    2:06:09 You know, believes in strong defense.
    2:06:10 The protagonist.
    2:06:12 This is the author.
    2:06:12 I got it.
    2:06:13 Mark Halperin.
    2:06:14 This is his mindset.
    2:06:24 So that manifests in basically romantic stories of heroic war efforts, which is, you know, I’m a boy.
    2:06:24 I like that stuff.
    2:06:28 I recommend Oceans and Stars is great.
    2:06:34 The only one of his that I probably reread is A Winter’s Tale, which was my first one I ever read by him.
    2:06:41 It’s just a beautiful, beautiful story of early 20th century life near New York City and upstate New York.
    2:06:42 You might actually like it.
    2:06:43 I might dig it.
    2:06:48 I read Last of the Mohicans just to take a walk through that area and that time period.
    2:06:49 Authors I like.
    2:06:51 I like Haruki Murakami.
    2:06:51 Yeah.
    2:06:52 Kind of magic.
    2:06:57 Neil Stevenson is like, some people don’t like his latest book, Polo Ston.
    2:07:00 I don’t know if he’s the one who wrote Snow Crash.
    2:07:00 Oh, yeah.
    2:07:05 I had pizza with him in Seattle with a couple of other guys.
    2:07:12 And I was like, wait, you do Victorian era calisthenics with, oh, and you make swords?
    2:07:13 Wait, what?
    2:07:14 I mean, lots of.
    2:07:15 And he’s got the beard.
    2:07:16 Oh, amazing beard.
    2:07:17 Yeah.
    2:07:19 I actually kind of like froze up when I met him.
    2:07:23 It doesn’t happen to me very often, but he’s kind of a hero.
    2:07:24 And he’s in Seattle.
    2:07:24 He’s in.
    2:07:25 Yeah, he’s right there.
    2:07:26 Yeah, he’s right there.
    2:07:28 So I see him occasionally at our sushi place.
    2:07:30 I’m like, I get scared.
    2:07:35 But his latest, Polo Ston, I highly recommend.
    2:07:36 Okay, I haven’t read it yet.
    2:07:39 Some people are giving me grief for it.
    2:07:43 It’s, you know, authors when they get successful late in the night.
    2:07:44 7,000 pages?
    2:07:45 Well, it’s long.
    2:07:46 A lot of his stuff is long, but it’s not that long.
    2:07:49 It’s not like Cryptonomicon or something.
    2:07:50 Which I loved.
    2:07:51 Which me too.
    2:07:51 Me too.
    2:07:57 But authors, as they get successful, sometimes they have too much power over their editors.
    2:07:59 And so they get a little self-indulgent, you know?
    2:08:03 Which, for me, with a beautiful prose writer, I’m like, take me along.
    2:08:03 Fine.
    2:08:05 I will indulge your self-indulgence.
    2:08:06 And I don’t mind it.
    2:08:12 But this one takes 100 to 150 pages to break into, but then it just goes.
    2:08:12 Then it rips.
    2:08:13 Then it rips.
    2:08:13 Yeah.
    2:08:15 So anyway, I highly write.
    2:08:16 And it’s going to be a trilogy.
    2:08:18 And so it’s only the first one.
    2:08:19 So I’m like, you know, I can’t wait.
    2:08:22 Anyway, I love, you can tell, I love to read fiction.
    2:08:29 And do you lean these days, if you’re gifting, have you gifted those books that you mentioned?
    2:08:33 I have gifted Oceans and Stars, but I’m such a Kindle person.
    2:08:35 So many of us are digital readers now.
    2:08:36 It’s kind of hard to gift.
    2:08:37 Yeah, it is.
    2:08:39 It’s more, you know, group chat.
    2:08:39 Yeah.
    2:08:41 You know, book group, group chat.
    2:08:44 That’s how most of the book discovery happens for me now.
    2:08:47 Have you read any of Ted Chang’s stuff?
    2:08:48 Uh-uh.
    2:08:49 Oh, man.
    2:08:49 Who is it?
    2:08:50 Who is it?
    2:08:53 Okay, so Ted, C-H-I-A-N-G.
    2:08:54 Okay.
    2:08:58 He has, last I checked, he has two collections of short stories.
    2:09:02 There is one, which I always script the title of.
    2:09:09 It’s like stories of your life and other stories, something like that.
    2:09:09 Okay.
    2:09:17 And one of those short stories was the basis for the movie Arrival with Jeremy Renner.
    2:09:17 Amazing movie.
    2:09:20 So one of his short stories was the basis for that.
    2:09:24 And then I read that collection, and pretty much everyone who read it was just like,
    2:09:26 I don’t understand how this guy does this.
    2:09:31 And if they happen to be writers, they’re also just like, sad clown tear.
    2:09:35 You know, it’s like, how does someone even begin to create something like this?
    2:09:40 His second collection came out, Exhalation, and I didn’t want to buy it because I didn’t
    2:09:40 want to be disappointed.
    2:09:42 I was like, there’s just no way, right?
    2:09:44 Like, that first one was Appetite for Destruction.
    2:09:45 Like, yeah, you can’t do that twice.
    2:09:50 And then the second was just unbelievably good.
    2:09:50 All right.
    2:09:57 And not all of them will hit necessarily, but the ones that hit are just incredible.
    2:09:58 And he has-
    2:10:00 And they’re like one night read short story, a collection of one night reads.
    2:10:03 I would say a lot of them are one night reads.
    2:10:05 Some of them end up being a little bit longer.
    2:10:11 But he, along with other writers too, Kenneth Liu, I think is L-I-U.
    2:10:16 He has the paper Menagerie, which was actually gifted to me by Matt Mullenweg, blends or alternates
    2:10:22 in a sense between sci-fi and fantasy in this really compelling way.
    2:10:27 So you get these like little ginger snacks in between your pieces of sushi.
    2:10:29 That sounds right up my alley.
    2:10:29 Resets.
    2:10:31 So highly, highly recommend.
    2:10:37 And I think for the longest time, he wasn’t, maybe he still isn’t a full-time writer.
    2:10:40 That’s the part that really got me where it’s like, okay, he writes technical manuals for
    2:10:41 A, B, or C.
    2:10:44 And then in his spare time, he wins Hugo and Nebula Awards.
    2:10:46 It’s just like, oh, come on.
    2:10:46 Amazing.
    2:10:47 Yeah.
    2:10:51 There’s hope for, I always kind of wished I became a writer.
    2:10:53 I like to write, but I’m not that good.
    2:10:55 And I’ve never dedicated time to it.
    2:10:58 But in that vein, this guy Amor Tolles, do you know him?
    2:10:59 Oh, so good.
    2:11:00 I’ve only read-
    2:11:01 He was a banker.
    2:11:01 I know.
    2:11:02 Finance.
    2:11:03 Well, that’s another one.
    2:11:05 Until he was like 40.
    2:11:06 No, I know.
    2:11:12 I read, the only thing I’ve read of his is Lincoln Highway, which, I mean, it is such a page
    2:11:12 turner.
    2:11:14 It’s so beautifully architected.
    2:11:21 And I read that, and I, through someone named Hugh Howey, shook hands with Amor very
    2:11:21 briefly at a restaurant.
    2:11:23 We happened to bump into each other.
    2:11:26 And I found out about the finance background.
    2:11:27 I was like, you gotta be kidding me.
    2:11:27 I know.
    2:11:28 You gotta be kidding me.
    2:11:29 I learned that.
    2:11:30 He was on somebody’s pod.
    2:11:33 He gave a great pod when Lincoln Highway came out.
    2:11:34 Yeah.
    2:11:36 To somebody who cracks open artists.
    2:11:37 It might have been like Brian.
    2:11:38 Oh, Coppelman.
    2:11:39 It might have been Coppelman.
    2:11:39 Yeah.
    2:11:40 Very well could have been Coppelman.
    2:11:42 Who gets to artists, right?
    2:11:45 Yes, who, by the way, for people who don’t know, a quick bit of trivia.
    2:11:52 So, Brian Coppelman, co-creator of Billions and co-writer of Rounders and all these movies
    2:11:59 and TV shows and so on, also discovered Tracy Chapman as a musician back in his A&R days.
    2:11:59 Really?
    2:12:00 Yeah.
    2:12:01 Isn’t that wild?
    2:12:03 He’s a talented guy.
    2:12:06 So, it wouldn’t surprise me if A&R was on that show.
    2:12:06 Yeah.
    2:12:08 He was on there and got him to crack up.
    2:12:11 And then, he was kind of surprised by Brian’s questions, I think.
    2:12:13 And didn’t know Brian.
    2:12:15 And all this stuff came out.
    2:12:15 Yeah.
    2:12:16 You know.
    2:12:17 Amazing.
    2:12:18 All right.
    2:12:20 This is the billboard question.
    2:12:23 If you could put anything on a billboard.
    2:12:24 Message.
    2:12:25 Quote.
    2:12:25 Yeah.
    2:12:30 Blinder, anything at all, obviously metaphorically, just to get something in front of a lot of
    2:12:30 people.
    2:12:33 You asked this, so I did think about it a little bit.
    2:12:33 Yeah.
    2:12:38 And my initial response that I latched onto came from that movie Bowfinger.
    2:12:40 I don’t know if you ever saw Bowfinger.
    2:12:40 No.
    2:12:41 It’s a cult classic.
    2:12:41 Okay.
    2:12:44 And a lot of you people out there haven’t seen it, but I highly recommend it.
    2:12:47 It’s Eddie Murphy Tour de Force.
    2:12:48 Okay.
    2:12:50 And Steve Martin and Heather Graham.
    2:12:52 It’s super quirky.
    2:12:57 Eddie Murphy plays two roles in it, which he did for a while in lots of movies.
    2:13:05 And he plays, one of his roles, he plays a paranoid Hollywood celebrity who thinks and
    2:13:10 in fact is being followed by people who are making a movie about him with him starring it
    2:13:10 unbeknownst to him.
    2:13:11 That’s the setup.
    2:13:13 Steve Martin’s directing.
    2:13:17 And he gets super, he’s already a paranoid guy, but he gets super paranoid.
    2:13:19 It’s like, people are following me.
    2:13:25 And he goes to a thing that, I don’t know what kind of culty LA religion it’s representing,
    2:13:27 but it’s called Mindhead.
    2:13:32 And he goes in and he has his first counseling with the high priest of Mindhead.
    2:13:35 And the religion is based on three happy premises.
    2:13:39 I’m not going to remember them all, but happy premise number one was something like,
    2:13:43 there is no giant foot in the sky about to step on me.
    2:13:44 Okay.
    2:13:46 This is like a mantra you have to repeat.
    2:13:50 The third one is my favorite and that was what I was going to put on the billboard.
    2:13:55 And that is, even though I feel like I might ignite, I probably won’t.
    2:13:57 Okay.
    2:13:59 That goes on my billboard.
    2:14:05 That or my favorite Burning Man bar ever was, had that giant neon sign on top of this kind
    2:14:10 of cozy geodesic dome playing groovy music decorated as an aquarium.
    2:14:11 Anybody out there?
    2:14:14 It’s like, it was at Burning Man a while ago and it hasn’t come back.
    2:14:15 It was our favorite spot.
    2:14:18 And the sign said, don’t panic.
    2:14:21 We’ll say more.
    2:14:22 That’s it.
    2:14:23 Don’t panic.
    2:14:24 So that’s on the billboard.
    2:14:24 Don’t panic.
    2:14:25 Don’t panic.
    2:14:32 I think a lot of my job as a leader explicitly or naturally or otherwise is to naturally bring
    2:14:36 people off of their high, high beta, high swings, high mood swings.
    2:14:42 People have a tendency to, towards fear and panic and almost always it’s going to be just
    2:14:43 fine.
    2:14:45 And when it’s not, it doesn’t matter anyway.
    2:14:46 Right.
    2:14:46 Okay.
    2:14:54 And it can cause a lot of a happier life and a calmer community and a better, healthier
    2:15:00 community and family if everybody just takes a little breath before getting scared, you
    2:15:04 know, or getting crazy or sending a text or whatever.
    2:15:06 Even though I feel like I might ignite, I probably won’t.
    2:15:09 Is that basically related to the don’t panic?
    2:15:09 Yes, I think so.
    2:15:11 I think that led me to the don’t panic.
    2:15:11 I think so.
    2:15:16 And I’m not saying I actually, I don’t move through the world feeling as if I might
    2:15:16 ignite.
    2:15:17 I really don’t.
    2:15:24 But I think a lot of people, especially in the modern newsfeed, iPhone, TikTok, Twitter
    2:15:26 world do feel that way.
    2:15:26 Yeah.
    2:15:28 And so it’s even more important.
    2:15:31 It’s why meditation is on the rise.
    2:15:33 It’s why we’re looking for escapes.
    2:15:39 We’re looking to give our brains and bodies just a break from the constant barrage.
    2:15:42 And it’s causing mental health problems we all are familiar with.
    2:15:43 You know, and I think that’s part of it.
    2:15:46 It’s just too easy to get mad or scared or outraged or whatever.
    2:15:51 Go take a rafting trip for a week, you know, that’s disconnected.
    2:15:52 That’s going to be on the rise.
    2:15:53 Those are growth businesses, right?
    2:15:57 People sheltering from the digital storm.
    2:15:58 Hailstorm of doom.
    2:15:59 Right, exactly.
    2:16:02 It’s so unhealthy, you know?
    2:16:03 Have you taken any sabbaticals since Italy?
    2:16:05 Oh, yeah.
    2:16:07 I mean, I’ve had multiple retirements.
    2:16:12 Now, are those failed retirements or did those have an end point where you’re like,
    2:16:15 I’m going to take a year and then I’m going to dust off my gloves and get back in the room?
    2:16:18 The Italy one was a failed one, although I suspected I was really young, right?
    2:16:20 The others, no.
    2:16:21 It’s just been sabbaticals.
    2:16:22 How long are they typically?
    2:16:31 You know, the Italy one was the longest one, but I’ve kind of built shelter into our family’s routine now.
    2:16:36 So it’s just a part of the normal cycle of the seasons, you know?
    2:16:41 And a really key component of that is not always achievable, especially now.
    2:16:46 Starlink and traveling Starlink and Starlink at my surf camp and Starlink on my Airstream.
    2:16:51 Like, it’s harder and harder to disconnect, but disconnection is really a key part of it, I think.
    2:16:56 I think disconnection, the behavior you observe when people are disconnected, like with my family, when we do,
    2:17:00 we rafted the Grand Canyon this year with a big group of friends and family.
    2:17:08 And when you watch the younger people, it’s very unsettling for the first only like three or four hours.
    2:17:14 And then when they realize it’s over, it’s total mean reversion to human behavior.
    2:17:22 Playing games, doing crafts, taking a hike, you know, painting a picture, you know, it’s totally beautiful what happens.
    2:17:24 And everybody is happy.
    2:17:29 Well, you can’t not be happy making a friendship bracelet or playing Taco Cat.
    2:17:31 What do we, I don’t want to give that away.
    2:17:33 I don’t want to give your game away.
    2:17:34 Oh, no, you didn’t.
    2:17:38 But you can’t not be happy when you’re doing that and not looking at your phone.
    2:17:39 Yeah.
    2:17:40 Highly encouraged.
    2:17:41 Rich.
    2:17:42 Tim.
    2:17:43 So nice to see you, man.
    2:17:44 It’s great to see you.
    2:17:45 We’ve covered a lot of ground.
    2:17:46 That was fun.
    2:17:46 Wow.
    2:17:54 Where, if people want to learn more things about Rich, should they be visitor 22 to your blog?
    2:17:55 No, I don’t think so.
    2:17:57 I think the blog is totally vestigial.
    2:17:59 It’s an appendix that needs to be removed.
    2:18:01 Hopper and dropper.
    2:18:01 Yeah.
    2:18:01 No.
    2:18:03 Yeah, no, man.
    2:18:04 I don’t, you know.
    2:18:07 The writing thing, I’ve had a lot of offers to do that with.
    2:18:13 I’ve just never felt like I enjoyed reading any of those, you know, business guy ego books, you know.
    2:18:18 I just don’t find them very interesting and I don’t want to be one of those kind of jerk-offs, you know.
    2:18:24 Maybe do a writer’s retreat or an MFA, compressed MFA and take a stab at fiction.
    2:18:25 Just saying.
    2:18:30 Even if you never publish anything, it’s a good muscle to train for a bit and just to play with it.
    2:18:33 I’m doing more creative things deliberately now and it feels good.
    2:18:33 Yeah.
    2:18:40 Like I took a Procreate painting on my iPad during COVID and it’s so, I’m so, I feel so good.
    2:18:48 And I like catch myself going back and looking at my works and I should, like I’d be at a party and I’ll show people what I painted.
    2:18:48 Yeah.
    2:18:51 And it’s not good, but it makes me feel good.
    2:18:53 I did exactly the same thing during COVID.
    2:18:54 Procreate.
    2:18:57 And you go through these tutorials, there’s something very soothing about it.
    2:18:58 Oh, that Australian gal.
    2:18:59 Yeah.
    2:19:01 Oh, who I think works at Procreate.
    2:19:01 Oh, so many.
    2:19:02 Who gives the tutorials.
    2:19:03 She’s so awesome.
    2:19:05 Yeah, so many good ones.
    2:19:08 Is there anything you would like to say?
    2:19:13 Any closing comments, formal public complaints you’d like to lodge?
    2:19:15 No, no.
    2:19:17 I guess I should just, I should thank you.
    2:19:18 You perform a good service.
    2:19:25 You provide a good service for a lot of people with this pod and with your books, you know, and certain people need it more than others.
    2:19:28 And I don’t think, I really don’t think people are looking for shortcuts.
    2:19:30 That may have been where you started a little bit.
    2:19:30 Yeah.
    2:19:39 I really just think people are just looking to lead better, happier, slightly more efficient lives.
    2:19:40 Improving lives.
    2:19:42 They want to improve themselves.
    2:19:44 And you really help people do that.
    2:19:49 And the diversity of the guests that you bring on this pod is really inspiring.
    2:19:50 So, yeah, it’s great.
    2:19:51 Thank you.
    2:19:51 Thanks, man.
    2:19:52 It’s great to be here.
    2:19:52 Yeah.
    2:19:53 Awesome to have you.
    2:19:58 Everybody listening, we’re going to include everything we talked about in the show notes.
    2:20:00 Tim.blog slash podcast.
    2:20:02 If you search Barton, that’s going to be the only Barton.
    2:20:04 So you’ll find this episode.
    2:20:11 And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself.
    2:20:13 And as always, thanks for tuning in.
    2:20:15 Hey, guys, this is Tim again.
    2:20:18 Just one more thing before you take off.
    2:20:20 And that is Five Bullet Friday.
    2:20:25 Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend?
    2:20:32 Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday.
    2:20:33 Easy to sign up.
    2:20:34 Easy to cancel.
    2:20:43 It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I’ve found or discovered or have started exploring over that week.
    2:20:45 It’s kind of like my diary of cool things.
    2:20:57 It often includes articles I’m reading, books I’m reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests.
    2:21:04 And these strange, esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I share them with you.
    2:21:11 So if that sounds fun, again, it’s very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about.
    2:21:15 If you’d like to try it out, just go to tim.blog.friday.
    2:21:19 Type that into your browser, tim.blog.friday.
    2:21:21 Drop in your email, and you’ll get the very next one.
    2:21:22 Thanks for listening.
    2:21:27 Listeners have heard me talk about making before you manage for years.
    2:21:34 All that means to me is that when I wake up, I block out three to four hours to do the most important things that are generative, creative, podcasting, writing, etc.
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    2:23:10 That’s CressetCapital.com slash Tim.
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    2:23:20 And of course, all investing involves risk, including loss of principle.
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    2:23:29 My first book, The 4-Hour Workweek, which made everything else possible, is built around the acronym and framework DEAL.
    2:23:30 D-E-A-L.
    2:23:33 Define, Eliminate, Automate, and Liberate.
    2:23:40 Now, of course, after you define all the things you want, your metrics, 80-20, blah, blah, blah, then you want to get rid of as much as possible.
    2:23:41 Eliminate.
    2:23:48 But sometimes, there are things that are a huge hassle, like expense management for a lot of companies, which you can’t get rid of.
    2:23:49 They are essential to your business.
    2:23:52 But today, thank God, you can automate it.
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    Rich Barton is the co-founder and co-executive chairman of Zillow, a company transforming how people buy, sell, rent, and finance homes. Before Zillow, Rich founded Expedia within Microsoft in 1994 and successfully spun the company off as a public company in 1999. He served as president, CEO, and board director of Expedia and later co-founded and served as non-executive chairman of Glassdoor.

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    *

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