0:00:03 So I grew up skiing in Lake Tahoe, California, and I was a competitive ski racer.
0:00:08 So all throughout my childhood and teenage years, I skied six days a week, 10 months a year,
0:00:12 all over the world. And it was great. There were about 12 of us on the Squaw Valley ski team. We
0:00:17 had grown up together and we’d spent our entire lives together. And when I was 17, this was in
0:00:23 2001, I was skiing with my two, two of my best friends, Brendan Allen and Brian Richmond. And
0:00:27 we would ski out of bounds, which is illegal. You’re not supposed to do it. We would duck under
0:00:31 the rope that says, do not cross. And we’d ski out of bounds because that’s where a lot of the good
0:00:37 skiing is. And when we would do this, it would spit us out on this back country road where we’d have to
0:00:40 hitchhike back. There’s no chairlift when you ski out of bounds, you have to hitchhike your way back.
0:00:45 So we did it one morning in February, 2001, the three of us did it. And when we did it,
0:00:53 we triggered a very small avalanche. And I remembered it so clearly. Like I can still feel it 21 year,
0:00:57 22 years later. I can still feel what it’s like. It’s the weirdest sensation of
0:01:02 that I’ve had in my life. Because when you get hit by an avalanche, rather than pushing on the snow to
0:01:08 gain traction with your skis, the ground is pushing you. So all of a sudden you’re skiing along and you
0:01:12 got control and all of a sudden, boom, you have no control anymore. The ground is pushing you around.
0:01:15 Probably similar to what it feels like if you’re standing on the ground during an earthquake,
0:01:19 like the ground’s pushing you. But it was a pretty small avalanche, maybe came up to our knees,
0:01:24 ended pretty quickly. And we kind of like literally high-fived about it at the bottom and went about our day.
0:01:30 We get back around to the base lodge. We hitchhiked back. And Brendan and Brian said
0:01:34 they wanted to do it again. They wanted to ski again. And I said, hey, for whatever reason,
0:01:38 I just didn’t want to do it. So I said, hey, rather than hitchhiking back, why don’t you guys go do it
0:01:43 again? And I’ll drive my truck around and pick you up. So we said, great. We made our plans,
0:01:47 went our separate ways. They went skiing. I went back around to take my boots off and jump in my truck and
0:01:52 go pick them up. 20, 30 minutes later, I go to pick them up at the pickup spot and they weren’t there.
0:01:58 And I knew it only took us a minute to ski down the hill. So 20 minutes later, I knew they weren’t
0:02:03 coming. I was not worried. I figured that they had already hitchhiked home. But so after waiting for
0:02:07 another 20 or 30 minutes, I just left and went back to the lodge. I expected them to be there and they
0:02:12 weren’t. And I still didn’t really worry. We didn’t have cell phones back then and people were just
0:02:17 comfortable being out of touch. If you didn’t know where your buddy was, it wasn’t that big a deal.
0:02:22 So we went about the day. I started worrying a little bit. I remember I stopped at Brendan’s
0:02:26 house, inspected him to be there and he wasn’t there either. And I remember calling and leaving
0:02:30 a message on his voicemail. And I remember ending the voicemail by saying, I hope you’re okay, man.
0:02:36 Those are my last words. I remember that very clearly. The day went on and I think at about four
0:02:40 or five o’clock, Brian’s mom called me and she said, Brian never showed up for work today. Do you know
0:02:46 where he is? And I told her what happened. I said, we skied the backside of Squaw where we’d hitchhiked
0:02:50 back. I was going to pick them up, but they never showed up and I haven’t seen them since.
0:02:55 And I also remember so clearly Brian’s mom saying, oh my God, and hanging up the phone.
0:03:00 And that was so like, so then we started getting worried. We called the police. The police didn’t
0:03:03 take it very seriously because they thought, ah, they’re out at a party. They ran off with a girl for
0:03:06 the night. Like they weren’t worried, but we finally got search and rescue involved.
0:03:12 And rescuers, the probe poles frowned Brennan and Brian buried under six feet of snow.
0:03:18 And they were, they’d been killed from a massive avalanche. And so look, I think virtually everyone
0:03:22 listening to this, I’m sure you two have lost somebody close to you, somebody that you love.
0:03:27 So I know the experience was not unique in that way, but it was the first time that I had experienced
0:03:32 loss. And it was the first bad thing that had ever happened to me in my life. So it had a big impact
0:03:36 on me. And there were a lot of takeaways. I think at the time I didn’t have the
0:03:43 cognitive tools to piece together what happened or to learn about what happened, like have any
0:03:49 sort of takeaways. But as I got older and thought about it and looking back, I put together all these
0:03:55 like realizations of what that did to me, how it changed me and what were some of the lessons from
0:04:01 it too. One that I talk about in the book that I think about all the time is my decision to not go
0:04:06 with them on a second run was this completely brainless decision. I put no thought into that
0:04:11 decision. It was not a cost benefit analysis. I didn’t think through it, but it’s the most important
0:04:15 decision I’ve ever made in my life. A hundred percent chance if I was with them, I would have died.
0:04:22 And I had skied literally thousands of runs with Brendan and Brian. How many times did I deny a second
0:04:26 run with them or say, you guys keep going, I’m going to go in? Almost never. The one time I did,
0:04:31 it saved my entire life. And so that you really realize that the world hangs by a thread.
0:04:36 Everybody thinks like, oh, you’re going to put a lot of thought into your big decisions to make sure
0:04:39 that you’re successful in life, where you go to college, what your career is going to be, who you
0:04:44 marry. That’s all great. But the world hangs by a thread and there are tiny little know nothing
0:04:50 decisions. Maybe that you made today of maybe it was when to cross the street. Maybe it was when to
0:04:57 leave, to get in your car that can utterly change the course of your life. And so once you accept that
0:05:02 of how much the world hangs by a thread, I think you become much more humble with your willingness to
0:05:06 make forecasts about the future. What the economy is going to do, who’s going to win the election,
0:05:11 what’s going to happen in my life, my career, my family’s life. We have no clue. We have no idea
0:05:18 because all we can think about are the big decisions. We cannot piece together the chaos theory of,
0:05:25 I got in my car at the wrong time. I met the wrong person or I met the right person. Or I decided not
0:05:30 to take a second run. We cannot forecast the impact of those things. And so that had a big impact on me
0:05:36 too, of just who are we to fool ourselves that we can predict the next recession, that we can predict
0:05:41 where our careers are going to be in 10 years, that we can predict how long our marriage is going to last,
0:05:45 that we can predict how long we’re going to live. We can’t. Nobody can because we can’t predict how
0:05:49 crazy these tiny events can turn into. And this comes right back to investing,
0:05:55 doesn’t it? Because most people that consider themselves to be investors, whether that’s just
0:06:02 putting a couple of quid into crypto or something else, engage in the idea that they can predict the
0:06:07 future. Yeah. And this is where it appears that most money is lost. I mean, think about the biggest
0:06:11 risk to the US economy over the last two generations. COVID?
0:06:17 I mean, that’s one of them. The others would be Pearl Harbor, 9-11, COVID, and maybe Lehman Brothers
0:06:21 couldn’t find a buyer in 2008, which sparked the financial crisis of 2008. Those are the biggest
0:06:26 risks by far. And the common denominator of every one of those stories is that nobody saw them coming.
0:06:31 They were not in any newspaper before they happened. They were not in any economic outlook.
0:06:36 Nobody was going on TV warning you that this was coming. The common denominator of those is that
0:06:40 they did all of their damage in two seconds. And that would be the case going forward.
0:06:46 You can guarantee that the biggest news story and the biggest risk over the next year or the next
0:06:51 10 years of our life, whatever it is, is something that nobody’s talking about today that you and I
0:06:55 have can’t even fathom. Because it’s always been like that. There’s never been a time when the biggest
0:07:01 news story was foreseeable. And it’ll be like that going forward. So that’s another just like
0:07:06 embracing how fragile the world is. There’s a great quote from a financial advisor who I really
0:07:10 admire named Carl Richards. And he says, risk is what’s left over when you think you’ve thought of
0:07:15 everything. You can go out of your way to think about all of the risks that are in your life.
0:07:18 And like, great. And like how you’re going to prevent them. Great. That’s a good thing to do.
0:07:23 When you’re done with that exercise, what’s left over that you’re not thinking about is what risk
0:07:28 actually is. It’s like by definition, we can never plan or even imagine what the biggest risks in our
0:07:33 life are going to be. You say that in Same as Ever. You say, I think the chapter title is risk is the
0:07:38 things you can’t see or something. Risk is what you don’t see. Risk is what you don’t see. That was a
0:07:44 little bit terrifying. It’s true. And I think sometimes you can phrase it as terrifying. It’s also kind of
0:07:50 relieving that like, why are you going to put so much effort into trying to predict what the stock
0:07:54 market is going to do next, what the economy is going to do next? Why are you building a forecasting
0:07:59 model to figure out what the economy is going to do over the next 10 years? When you look at the last
0:08:04 10 or 20 years, how could you ever predict 9-11 or COVID? And even look like something like COVID,
0:08:11 there’s like a 2015 Bill Gates TED Talk where he talks about the biggest risk to society is a viral
0:08:17 pandemic. So it’s not that nobody saw that thing coming, but the specifics of when it’s going to
0:08:22 happen, how bad it’s going to be. Is it just going to shut down the economy for a week or two years?
0:08:26 That is completely impossible. But there’s also lots of other TED Talks that say everything’s
0:08:31 going to be great. Of course. Of course. There’s a lot more. So on balance, the world had no idea.
0:08:37 I think on balance, the world breaks once per decade. Not exactly once per decade, but on average,
0:08:43 once per decade, everything that you thought about risk and uncertainty and stability goes to shit.
0:08:47 So how do I prepare? If risk is what I don’t see, how do I prepare?
0:08:51 There’s another great quote from Nassim Talib that I like where he says,
0:08:55 invest in preparedness, not in prediction. So rather than going out of your way to be like,
0:08:59 here’s what I think is going to happen in crypto. Here’s what I think is going to happen in the stock
0:09:04 market. Just make sure that you have a big enough buffer in your finances, cash, liquidity,
0:09:10 being scared of debt. So that no matter what happens, you at least have a fighting chance of
0:09:15 enduring it and making through. One thing I’ve often thought about is that you should have enough cash
0:09:20 cash in your investing portfolio. The amount of cash you should have should feel like it’s too
0:09:25 much. It should feel, it should make you wince a little bit because if you only have enough cash
0:09:29 to put up with the risks that you can envision and the risks that you can foresee, you’re going to miss
0:09:34 a surprise every single time. Every single surprise is going to be a surprise to you. But if you feel
0:09:39 like you have too much cash, then at least you have a fighting chance of putting up with the 9-11,
0:09:45 the COVID, the Pearl Harbor, whatever it might be. So when people look at my asset allocation,
0:09:51 my investments, a lot of people look at it and say, you seem really conservative. Why do you have this
0:09:56 much cash? What are you saving for? And my answer is always, I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m
0:10:02 saving for. Who are we to assume that we can predict the risks that are going to be in our own personal
0:10:07 lives and throughout the broader world. Nobody can do it. The only way to prepare for it is to have
0:10:12 what feels like too much safety. What is your capital allocation strategy? How do you invest your
0:10:18 money? This is, you know, this is the thing people want to know most about you. I keep it as painfully
0:10:25 simple as I possibly can. So literally my entire net worth is cash, a house, and index funds, and some
0:10:29 shares of Markel while I’m on the board of directors. And that’s it. There’s nothing else. My entire,
0:10:34 I can summarize everything so easily and so cleanly. And truly that’s it. And it’s not even
0:10:38 like I have 20 bank accounts. I have one bank account, one brokerage account and like in a house
0:10:45 and that’s it. So simple. Why index funds? You’re the reason I, your capital allocation strategy is
0:10:50 almost identical to mine. I want to talk about the house thing as well. But after reading your book,
0:10:58 I stopped trying to pick stocks and I invested all of my available capital into index funds outside of
0:11:03 investing it in starting companies. So I’m a shareholder in, I don’t know, 50, 60, 70 companies.
0:11:10 I, all my other available capital is invested in index funds. And then I have a very long-standing
0:11:14 large position in Ethereum, which I’ve held for like six years or something. Yeah. Which has done me very
0:11:20 well. Yeah. That is it. And the Ethereum investment is also based on the fact that I run a software
0:11:25 business that is in blockchain. And I could see that developers are building on top of Ethereum more than
0:11:29 any of the blockchain. So that insight was really beneficial to me.
0:11:35 And six years. So even with the big fall of the last two years, you’re, you’re still up a lot.
0:11:41 Yeah. I think your book taught me that successful investing is when you lose the password to your
0:11:41 investment account.
0:11:47 I don’t actually think you said that in there, but that’s like, when I lose the password to my
0:11:53 investment account, I’m so proud of myself because it means I haven’t checked it in forever. And so
0:11:56 it was funny because you were coming today. I thought, oh yeah, well, I have all this money in
0:11:59 these index funds. I’ll check it. And I thought, fuck, I don’t know the password.
0:12:03 Good. That’s why you’re going to do okay. The reason I do this, what’s important is that I am
0:12:08 not one of the people who says nobody can beat the market. So therefore use index funds. That’s not what
0:12:12 I believe. I think there, I think it’s extremely hard to beat the market and very few people will do
0:12:17 it. But I think there are really smart people who can do it and people who I know who I could invest
0:12:21 with. The reason I don’t is not because I don’t believe it can be done. It’s because the variable
0:12:27 that I want to maximize for in my investments is endurance. If I can just earn average returns for an
0:12:32 above average period of time, it’s going to lead to amount of success that will literally put you in
0:12:38 the top 5% of investors. My parents are a great example of this. My parents are smart people,
0:12:42 but they really, they have no financial background and they have like minimal financial interest,
0:12:47 I would say. And, but they have dollar costs average into index funds for going on 40 years now.
0:12:51 And literally, if you look at the returns, they’ve never sold anything ever. And literally,
0:12:55 if you look at the returns, they’d probably be in the top 3% of professional investors.
0:12:59 For anyone that doesn’t know, what is dollar cost averaging and what is an index fund?
0:13:04 Dollar cost averaging means you buy the same dollar amount of investments every single month come
0:13:09 hell or high water. It doesn’t matter what the stock market’s doing, recession, boom, bust. You say,
0:13:13 I’m going to put $100 or whatever it is in the stock market on the first of every month. Now,
0:13:19 most people who like have a 401k at work are doing this whether they know it or not. They have $100 or
0:13:24 whatever removed from every paycheck and it goes into the funds that they own and they don’t have to do
0:13:27 anything. Whether you know it or not, you’re actually doing it. The contrast to that would
0:13:32 say, I’m going to buy and sell based off of how I feel in the stock market. I wake up, I watch CNBC,
0:13:36 I decided to sell and I’m going to put it back in when I feel better about the market. It’s the
0:13:42 contrast to that. An index fund is just a single fund that owns hundreds or thousands of stocks within
0:13:46 it. And if it’s diverse enough, if it’s big enough, really what you’re doing is you’re owning a slice
0:13:51 of the global economy, which is how I think about it. It’s thousands of individual stocks in there,
0:13:55 Tesla, Apple, whatever it be. But really what you’re doing is you’re owning a slice of capitalism.
0:14:00 If I was your son and I said, dad, prove to me that that’s a better long-term wealth creation
0:14:07 strategy than buying crypto or buying companies that I use or like, how would you explain that to
0:14:13 your kid? Your ability to do well over the next one year or five years is going to have no role
0:14:19 whatsoever on your lifetime ability to generate wealth. All that’s going to matter is not what are
0:14:23 the best returns you can earn. All that matters are, is what are the returns that you can sustain
0:14:27 for the longest period of time? All that matters is your endurance. It doesn’t matter if you can
0:14:31 double your money this year or even double your money again the next year. All that matters is,
0:14:36 can you stick and keep it going for 50 years? That’s where compounding comes from.
0:14:42 All because the formula for compounding is returns to the power of time. That’s not quite it, but like
0:14:47 more or less, that’s it. So in that equation, if you understand the math, all of the heavy lifting
0:14:48 comes from the exponent.
0:14:48 Prove it.
0:14:52 Because that’s how exponential growth works. That’s how it works. It’s literally exponential.
0:14:55 Give me a case study where someone has followed that strategy and done well.
0:15:01 Okay. Here’s one way to explain it that I use in the book. 99% of Warren Buffett’s net worth was
0:15:08 accumulated after his 60th birthday. After he turned 60 years old, 99% of his wealth has been
0:15:13 accumulated after that period. Because the longer you hold that four, the crazier the numbers get.
0:15:18 When he was 60, I think he was worth about $3 billion. A lot of money. He’s a multi-billionaire.
0:15:22 But now that he’s 90, he’s worth over $100 billion. And he’s given like $100 billion away to charity.
0:15:27 So if he didn’t do that, he’d be worth, he’d go from $3 billion to $200 billion since he’s been 60.
0:15:32 Because the numbers just get crazier at that point. He’s worth $100 billion. So if his market,
0:15:37 if his net worth goes up 10% in one year, he makes $10 billion, which is three times that he was worth
0:15:42 when he was 60. So that’s when you look at somebody like Buffett, is he a great investor? Is he a great
0:15:48 stock picker? Of course. But the real secret to his success is that he’s been a good investor for 80
0:15:54 years. And if he had retired at age 60 or at age 50, nobody would have ever heard of him.
0:15:58 He would have been like one of the other multi-billionaires who lives in Florida and
0:16:03 plays golf. And like, you’ve never heard of him. The reason he’s a household name is because he’s
0:16:08 been doing this nonstop since he’s been 11 years old. And he’s never stopped. It’s just the endurance
0:16:11 that’s made him so wealthy. Not necessarily the annual returns.
0:16:15 Patience. It’s a difficult thing. It also reminds me of the story that you talk about in the introduction
0:16:19 of your book about the janitor, Ronald James Reid.
0:16:19 Yeah.
0:16:24 Who, when he died in 2014, age 92, had a net worth of over $8 million.
0:16:27 And he was a janitor.
0:16:28 How did he do that?
0:16:32 He took what very little money he could save from his job as a janitor,
0:16:37 mopping floors at the gas station. He put it in stocks and he left it alone for 70 years.
0:16:40 And that’s it. That’s all you need. That’s all you need to do.
0:16:45 If you have endurance in your investing and you can keep it going for years or decades,
0:16:49 you don’t need to be a genius stock picker. And not only do you not need to do it,
0:16:55 if you have endurance, you’re going to be literally 97 or 99% of the genius stock pickers.
0:17:00 And what’s so interesting about it is like picking the right stocks is hard. It’s supposed to be hard.
0:17:04 There’s no world in which everybody who tries to beat the market is going to do it. Of course,
0:17:10 it’s hard. Just like being an NBA player is hard. But having endurance is like largely in your
0:17:15 control. It’s so much easier to just be patient than it is to pick the right stocks every single
0:17:20 day. And I think some people nature nurture, some people like probably Ronald Reed and my parents
0:17:25 just understand it naturally. It’s not hard for them to be patient. But dude, like there are
0:17:32 professional investors who work 80 hours a week for 30 years to try to beat the market and they can’t do
0:17:36 it. Not only some, that explains like most of them. And even the ones who can do it are maybe
0:17:40 going to beat the market by half a percent per year, 1% per year. But if you can have endurance,
0:17:46 that is, that’s a bigger benefit than you can have by even being like a very successful stock picker.
0:17:50 Like somebody who outperforms the market by one percentage point per year, and they can do that
0:17:56 for 10 years. That’s amazing. That’s like Mount Rushmore investor. But somebody who earns average
0:18:01 returns and does it for 20 years is going to have way more money. You do it for 30 years,
0:18:05 you’re going to be filthy rich. You’d be like Ronald Reed. You can be a janitor who
0:18:09 leaves $8 million to charity when you die. You’ve spoken about a few of the skills that
0:18:13 are required for making money. The one that really stuck out to me that you’ve discussed so far is
0:18:18 this idea of endurance, patience, regardless of what’s happening in the markets, regardless of the
0:18:23 volatility, lose your password and sit on your hands. Just on that point as well, I remember reading
0:18:27 somewhere, it might’ve even been your book. You know, it’s so crazy because the things that I know
0:18:31 about money, I can’t remember where I’ve got them from, but most of them came from this book.
0:18:36 Like most of the principles came from this book. And one of the things that I read was that Warren
0:18:41 Buffett would go like five years without allocating capital. And this quote where he said, the hardest
0:18:45 thing to be a great investor is to be able to sit on your hands and do nothing.
0:18:49 Sit on your ass and do nothing. That’s it. That’s a Munger quote. And that’s what they’re doing right
0:18:53 now, right now. Berkshire Hathaway, which is Warren Buffett’s company, has like $150 billion
0:18:59 of cash right now. And that’s their entire 60 year history of Warren Buffett and Berkshire Hathaway
0:19:05 is build up a shitload of cash, wait 10 years for an opportunity, deploy it all, and then go back to
0:19:10 waiting and building up cash. And that’s, that’s, that’s how they done it. Good opportunities are
0:19:14 rare. Of course they are. They should be rare. It shouldn’t be that anybody can just open up their
0:19:17 stock account and find the opportunity of a lifetime. It’s going to come once a decade.
0:19:21 What are the other skills then? Endurance, patience to create, to get money.
0:19:26 For the, for the ordinary person, endurance and patience is 99% of what you need as an investor,
0:19:31 because the opportunities there to invest in a low cost index fund are available for everybody.
0:19:34 And you can do that from your phone. Do it from your phone, open up a Robinhood account,
0:19:39 buy some index funds, anybody can do that. And so that, but that was not always the case. It used
0:19:43 to be like 20 years ago that the only people who could invest were people who had a lot of money
0:19:45 and could afford a broker and had a connection to a broker.
0:19:47 And you had to like make a phone call.
0:19:50 And to make a phone call, you had to know a guy. And even then you were going to pay a ridiculous
0:19:52 fee to that person for doing it.
0:19:53 You got pieces of paper and all kinds of-
0:19:56 Huge. It was a joke. And that’s 20 years ago. It was not that long ago.
0:20:01 So I think like people aren’t grateful enough or appreciative enough of how much things have
0:20:03 changed that open up those opportunities for everybody.
0:20:08 You talk about the skill of keeping money, which is different from the skill of getting money
0:20:10 is predicated on survival.
0:20:16 Financial survival. And just putting up with all the unpredictable nonsense that’s going to happen
0:20:20 between now and the end of your life. And we talked earlier about the
0:20:26 surprises, Pearl Harbor, 9-11, all these big surprises. It’s just your ability to endure
0:20:30 things like that. That’s going to be literally 90% of your financial success and your investing
0:20:35 success. So gaining money is like being an optimist and taking a risk, like being optimistic about
0:20:40 yourself, swinging for the fences. You need that to get rich. Staying rich is like the exact opposite.
0:20:47 You need a level of being conservative. You need to be scared. You need to be like acknowledge of all
0:20:52 all the unknown risks that are in front of us and have a financial allocation and a mindset that’s
0:20:56 going to allow you to endure them and survive them financially. You need both of those skills at
0:20:57 the same time.
0:21:05 So your kid is 20 years old. He’s broke. Do you tell him to go and take huge outsized risks? He’s
0:21:09 not got a family. He’s not got a mortgage. He’s not got a dog. What advice do you give him at that age
0:21:10 to create wealth?
0:21:14 I would actually say, I think this is a little counterintuitive, that when somebody is young,
0:21:18 you think you would say, you got 50 years in front of you. Swing for the fences. Go for it.
0:21:22 It’s also when your life is the most fragile. It’s when you’re most likely to be laid off,
0:21:27 most likely to change your career, most likely to break up or get divorced, whatever it would be.
0:21:32 And so for that, you need quite a bit of financial flexibility, just cash and liquidity.
0:21:36 So once you had some level built up, whatever the level might be for a different person,
0:21:42 then like do something crazy. I also think like for careers, some of the best career advice,
0:21:46 that’s maybe not universal, but when you graduate college and you’re looking at your career,
0:21:51 don’t take the safe job, which is usually like the big company, the blue chick company.
0:21:52 Go for the weird company.
0:21:53 Why?
0:21:57 Go for something crazy. Because when you’re older, when you’re 40 and you have two kids and a mortgage,
0:22:02 you’re not going to want to take the weird job. That’s when you want the stability. That’s when
0:22:06 you’re probably going to want the job that has good benefits and a stable paycheck because you need that.
0:22:11 When you’re 22 and you’re not tied down by anything, don’t go work for Goldman Sachs or
0:22:16 Apple or Deloitte or something like that. Go for the weird startup where you’re going to learn
0:22:17 something completely different.
0:22:23 Link to that point is in the weird startup, you’re going to be so close to the failure and failure is
0:22:24 the knowledge.
0:22:25 You’re going to learn so much more.
0:22:26 You’re going to learn so much.
0:22:30 And there’s so many people who take the blue chip, the safe job out of college, and it puts
0:22:34 them on a very predictable track. You’re going to be an analyst for two years. And then if you’re good,
0:22:38 you’ll get promoted to senior analyst. And then you’ll get promoted to associate. It’s like very
0:22:44 stable and linear. And that’s like, it’s you capping all of your upside. Or if you go for the weird
0:22:48 company, you’re either going to do one of two things. It’s either going to fail and you’re going to learn a lot
0:22:52 that, or it’s going to take off and you’re going to learn a lot from that. And then maybe when you’re
0:22:56 40, after going through all that, then you want the stable job at the big company.
0:23:01 It’s interesting. I was thinking as you’re speaking that the proximity from your desk and the CEOs
0:23:04 probably needs to widen over time.
0:23:10 Yes. I think that’s true. Yeah, absolutely. And most people, I think if you do it the other way
0:23:14 around, or most people would never do it the other round. If you start your career in the stable
0:23:18 company, you’re probably never going to leave. You’re going to get addicted to the nice
0:23:22 paycheck, the stable benefits, whatnot, and you’re never going to take a risk and do anything else.
0:23:25 And maybe that’s okay. Maybe for some people’s personalities, that’s exactly what they want.
0:23:30 But I think there is a higher level of regret for people that start in a safe company and then they
0:23:34 get the golden handcuffs, they can’t leave. And by the time they’re 40 and they realize that they
0:23:38 wanted to work at the crazy company, they can’t because they got a mortgage and two kids and they’re
0:23:41 saving for retirement and they can’t take the risks at that level of their life.
0:23:48 You introduced this concept of tails, long tails, and this also changed
0:23:51 changed my life. Changed my investment strategy, I should probably say. You talk about the example
0:23:57 of venture capital, where for every 50 investments that venture capitalists make, statistically,
0:24:04 half of them will completely fail. 10 will do okay. And one or two will make huge profits that drive
0:24:09 100% of the fund’s returns. This is a lesson about investing in finance, but it’s also for me,
0:24:10 a lesson about life.
0:24:14 It’s always life. It’s always life. Yeah. It applies to everything. Tales where just a couple
0:24:22 of things that happen explain 90 or 99% of what matters. It’s always the case. You see it in
0:24:27 business where you take in the United States, there are thousands of public companies that you can buy
0:24:32 stock in. But the huge majority of the value in the US stock market is in like 10 companies,
0:24:37 Apple, Tesla, Microsoft. So even though you have thousands of companies, 10 of them are the ones
0:24:40 that really matter and are going to drive all of the returns over time.
0:24:41 So why don’t you just buy those 10?
0:24:45 Because nobody knows what they’re going to be, at least in hindsight. That’s the argument for owning
0:24:49 a thousand of them is that you know that the 10 that are going to be the next big ones are going to be
0:24:50 in there.
0:24:55 All of this is a case for humility. This is honestly what I took away from your book. You’re expecting
0:25:01 to walk away with tips, all these tips, these tricks, these special ways to make more money than
0:25:07 everybody. What I came away with is this one important lesson that I’ve never been able to
0:25:10 unsee, which is, I don’t know.
0:25:15 I think that’s great. And then back to, I wrote this book for myself. That’s been the biggest lesson
0:25:20 for me. It’s not only do I know, but nobody else knows either. Everyone else is bullshitting their
0:25:23 way through the investing market too. They don’t know either.
0:25:27 I’m in this crypto chat where one of my friends, I’m going to disparage him, one of my friends,
0:25:30 he’s the guy in the chat that’s always posting the forecast graphs. You know, those ones where
0:25:34 they kind of like the little logger graphs where they forecast where the stock or the crypto is
0:25:34 going to go.
0:25:39 Where they think it’s going to go. Right. And it’s always, it’s always up and to the right.
0:25:43 And it’s kind of like male horoscopes. I heard someone say that.
0:25:48 That’s such a great, yeah, no, I think that’s, I think what’s closest to investing is something
0:25:50 like the horoscope, or even if you know it’s bullshit, you want to read it.
0:25:51 Why?
0:25:56 Because it’s comforting. What a lot of people want out of their investing forecasts or whatever it is,
0:26:00 is they want to reduce the uncertainty that’s giving them stress. Because everyone, I think
0:26:05 intuitively knows that the future in front of us is unknown and it’s unknowable, but that hurts.
0:26:09 And so if it hurts, you try to reduce that stress by finding someone who says,
0:26:10 I do know what’s going to happen.

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0:01:20 Buying a house has long been considered the best way to build wealth
0:01:22 and move into true adulting.
0:01:23 Isn’t it?
0:01:26 I mean, at least that’s what society wants us to think.
0:01:27 Got to get a Birkin.
0:01:28 Got to get a home.
0:01:28 You know.
0:01:29 Okay.
0:01:32 The handbag you can probably manage without.
0:01:34 But what about a house?
0:01:38 Surely that’s actually good, right?
0:01:42 We’re going to find out this week on Explain It To Me.
0:01:47 New episodes every Sunday morning, wherever you get your podcasts.
0:01:51 Episode 343.
0:01:54 343 is the area code serving Eastern Ontario, Canada.
0:01:57 In 1943, nachos were invented.
0:01:59 How do you get 12 babies into a bucket?
0:02:00 A blender.
0:02:02 How do you get them out?
0:02:04 Nachos.
0:02:07 Oh, why does that make me laugh?
0:02:08 Anyways.
0:02:11 Go, go, go!
0:02:21 Welcome to the 343rd episode of the Prop G Pod.
0:02:22 Okay, what’s happening?
0:02:24 I am back in New York.
0:02:26 The dog is back in the city.
0:02:27 He’s howling.
0:02:28 I’m going to…
0:02:28 Where am I going tonight?
0:02:31 Because my social life is obviously on your mind.
0:02:33 I’m going to Silicon…
0:02:33 What’s going on?
0:02:36 I keep thinking S.U.P., Silicon Valley Bank.
0:02:38 No, I’m not going to a bank that over leveraged
0:02:40 and almost took down the global economy.
0:02:42 I’m going to San Vicente Bungalows.
0:02:44 A total HQ of douchebaggery.
0:02:45 I used to go…
0:02:47 I went a couple times in L.A.
0:02:50 And they just opened here in New York.
0:02:51 They opened in the Jane Hotel.
0:02:53 And I think it’s going to be a great summer for them
0:02:54 because the Jane Hotel has…
0:02:58 The Jane Hotel has beautiful outdoor space.
0:02:59 At least they used to.
0:02:59 I haven’t been there yet.
0:03:00 Anyways, going tonight for the first time.
0:03:01 I’m very excited.
0:03:02 And it is crazy.
0:03:05 All of these private members clubs have opened.
0:03:06 Let’s go through each of them.
0:03:08 There’s Casa Cipriani downtown.
0:03:10 Now, let’s go with the original gangster.
0:03:11 Zero Bond.
0:03:13 Best crowd, I think, in New York.
0:03:14 My favorite because it’s in walking distance.
0:03:16 And I like the owner, Scott Sartiano.
0:03:18 And it’s just got a good vibe.
0:03:20 Very curated group of people.
0:03:21 Sort of, I don’t know.
0:03:25 Just, I think, kind of the original gangster after So House.
0:03:28 So House came in and said, we’re a Lexus.
0:03:30 Then they became a public company and said,
0:03:32 we’re going to go Toyota because we need to sell more.
0:03:34 We need to be more about volume than prestige.
0:03:40 And Scott saw an opening and got a beautiful space and created a very kind of curated group
0:03:42 and just, I think, just printed money.
0:03:44 And then a bunch of people who were probably members said,
0:03:51 I like the idea of owning one of these and backed restaurateurs or hospitality folks.
0:03:54 And they all, none of them obviously talked to each other.
0:03:58 Because if they’d all known about a dozen of them were going to come online in a 12-month period,
0:04:02 they wouldn’t have done it because they’re probably all going to put each other out of business
0:04:04 or at least substantially erode their margins.
0:04:06 Anyways, then Casa Cipriani opened.
0:04:12 Casa Cipriani is the, you know, it’s the Loro Piano or the Armani.
0:04:13 It’s a super rich kid.
0:04:15 I don’t know who’s funding that thing.
0:04:18 But they’ve spent tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars.
0:04:19 It’s in a weird location.
0:04:20 It’s downtown.
0:04:23 But you do feel, and by the way, I went there.
0:04:27 I had some drinks and some appetizers and a light meal.
0:04:28 And I was with some friends.
0:04:29 It was two or three of us.
0:04:31 And the check came and it was 700 bucks.
0:04:36 And I said, I asked the manager, I said, how can anyone afford this?
0:04:37 Because it’s all young people there.
0:04:39 And he said, well, one, none of the women are paying.
0:04:41 I’m sure that’ll trigger some people.
0:04:42 But he said, none of the women are paying.
0:04:45 And two, most of the young men here are not paying either.
0:04:46 And I’m like, how’s that?
0:04:47 And he said, they have their parents’ credit cards.
0:04:49 Supposedly, it’s a lot of trust fund kids from New Jersey.
0:04:51 Trust fund kids from New Jersey.
0:04:54 Now, that’s on the new season of Sopranos.
0:04:55 They’re not mobsters.
0:04:56 They’re trust fund kids.
0:04:57 Jesus.
0:04:58 That would be interesting.
0:04:59 Anyways, that’s Casa Cipriani.
0:05:02 And then the Crane Club opened.
0:05:05 The Crane Club was opened by the Tao Group.
0:05:08 The Tao Group, they’re sort of the nightclub guys that were really good business people that
0:05:10 actually made real money.
0:05:13 And they had, I think they opened, I think they were the guys behind Avenue.
0:05:18 And then they opened what became the highest grossing per square foot restaurant in the world,
0:05:19 Tao Las Vegas.
0:05:21 And they were bought by MSG.
0:05:23 These guys are smart.
0:05:24 They’re great operators that work really hard.
0:05:30 Jason and Noah, who I knew back like 25 years ago, if I tried to get into a cool party,
0:05:32 it’s like, does anyone know Jason or Noah?
0:05:33 Anyway, it’s good for them.
0:05:34 And they made real money.
0:05:36 And they opened something called the Crane Club.
0:05:39 That is, I don’t know how to describe it.
0:05:40 It’s sort of a mix of all of them.
0:05:43 I went there on Saturday night.
0:05:43 They had a DJ there.
0:05:45 When the DJ starts playing, I just don’t know.
0:05:46 It just sounds like a DJ.
0:05:51 It’s like, okay, I could just let me stream my iPod and I’ll save you some money.
0:05:57 But anyways, they’re the ones you would probably bet on long term because they’re such good operators.
0:06:03 The hot one, though, right now, the one of the moment is a place called Chez Margot,
0:06:06 which has sort of this French underground libertine.
0:06:07 I don’t know what the term is.
0:06:13 I don’t know the Louvre and opened an underground club with the cool nephew or something.
0:06:16 No windows, very European feel.
0:06:19 And that has, that is somehow, and it’s kind of exciting because they,
0:06:23 I don’t know if I would call them sort of, if people would have bet on it,
0:06:25 but that’s the hot one right now.
0:06:28 And then the new one is San Vicente Bungalows.
0:06:30 Supposedly, the Almond opened up in Midtown.
0:06:30 I haven’t been.
0:06:32 I’ve heard it’s just old men and their mistresses.
0:06:33 Is that too harsh?
0:06:34 Anyways, I haven’t been there.
0:06:35 Don’t know.
0:06:36 Jazz bar is supposed to be nice.
0:06:37 Anyways, I’m excited.
0:06:38 I’m doing that.
0:06:42 It’s a really interesting lesson in economics and competition
0:06:47 because you pay $5,000 to go essentially pay for a meal.
0:06:50 So it’s an outstanding business model when it works
0:06:53 because the shareholders can better plan.
0:06:57 And instead of trying to focus on all their money on marketing
0:06:58 to get people in the door,
0:07:01 they can focus on the relationship and do programming
0:07:04 because essentially the economics are the following.
0:07:09 They try and break even on the food and the beverage and the hotel,
0:07:12 and then the membership is just straight profit if it works well.
0:07:16 And because the membership is hopefully a recurring revenue model
0:07:17 that is more predictable,
0:07:21 these things get higher valuations than just a restaurant
0:07:22 and are more sustainable.
0:07:24 But the key is, and this is what’s so powerful,
0:07:26 but the membership model, the key is getting renewals.
0:07:27 And so what do you do?
0:07:28 You start investing in the relationship
0:07:31 as opposed to just trying to get more people in the door.
0:07:34 That’s why a retailer trades in one to two times revenues
0:07:38 and software companies that are recurring revenue pay at six to eight.
0:07:40 So it’s sort of the software of hospitality.
0:07:42 I just made that up and I’m really proud of myself.
0:07:43 That was good.
0:07:44 That was good.
0:07:46 And I didn’t even do any math this morning
0:07:48 and I came up with that all on my own.
0:07:50 The other part of the economics here though
0:07:52 is the dark side here.
0:07:55 And that is, I never invest in anything that sounds cool.
0:07:58 A friend of mine approached me about a member’s club two years ago.
0:08:00 It was going to be for artists and musicians.
0:08:01 And I said, it sounds great.
0:08:01 I’ll be a member.
0:08:04 But I don’t invest in anything that sounds really sexy
0:08:09 because there’s typically a disproportionate or overabundance of capital,
0:08:11 which means the return of that capital gets driven down.
0:08:13 I think that’s exactly what’s going on here.
0:08:17 And that is, there are just too many of these things opening up.
0:08:20 And I don’t know how many people are going to be able to afford $5,000
0:08:22 to go pay for dinner.
0:08:25 They are smart in the sense that they also price discriminate.
0:08:27 I think price discrimination is really interesting
0:08:30 because I think pricing is the most difficult thing in business.
0:08:31 It’s the thing I have struggled with most.
0:08:32 And that is,
0:08:39 William Sonoma in 1995 hires my firm Profit to do their internet strategy.
0:08:42 And I don’t know whether to price it at $200,000 or $2 million.
0:08:46 I just could never figure out pricing or launch a product.
0:08:48 You know, any of the companies I’ve started,
0:08:50 I just always really struggle with pricing.
0:08:52 I think pricing is artisan because it sends a signal.
0:08:54 But at the same time, you want to have a great value proposition
0:08:56 such you get to a certain level of scale.
0:09:00 But pricing your product at a premium sends a signal about what it is.
0:09:01 I think it’s more the business model.
0:09:04 And I finally figured out going to recurring revenue to see above members clubs.
0:09:05 But I think these guys,
0:09:09 unfortunately, there’s just way too many of them.
0:09:11 And there are really interesting kind of lessons in branding.
0:09:14 The other thing that’s sort of a bummer, I would argue,
0:09:18 is that when I first got to New York when I was 22,
0:09:19 I worked at Morgan Stanley.
0:09:23 And there was places you could go
0:09:26 and there was some insecurity about whether or not you’d get in.
0:09:28 And the value proposition now that I have more,
0:09:32 I have more money, but I’m less handsome,
0:09:33 dramatically less handsome.
0:09:36 Oh my God, I was a tall drink of lemonade back in the day.
0:09:36 That’s right.
0:09:38 All the hair, all the hair.
0:09:41 I was a solid six, a solid six.
0:09:45 And you go with some friends and you’d go to Lotus or Pangaea or whatever.
0:09:49 And they’re, or I used to go to the tunnel, I think it was called, or Obar or Surf Club.
0:09:55 And you’d walk up and you’d push like the women in front or the coolest guy and hopefully know the doorman.
0:09:58 And he’d look at you, size you up and then let you in.
0:10:02 But anyone or almost anyone could get into these places.
0:10:08 And now I find that this giant velvet rope is being strung across all of New York and London nightlife.
0:10:11 And if you’re not a member and you can’t afford it, you can’t get in.
0:10:14 What they do is price discrimination, though, and that is they have junior memberships, which is smart.
0:10:18 So ugly old guys like me, if I pay five grand a year to go spend money on drinks,
0:10:21 and younger people under the age of 30 spend two grand.
0:10:23 I think price discrimination is really interesting.
0:10:25 The airlines are the best price discriminators.
0:10:31 You can be sitting next to someone who paid five times or a fifth of what you pay based on price discrimination.
0:10:32 Oh, you’re staying over Saturday.
0:10:33 That means you’re not a business traveler.
0:10:36 That means you’re probably paying, which makes you much more price sensitive.
0:10:40 So we’ll give you a much lower fare if you’re staying for the Saturday night.
0:10:41 Oh, you’re booking last minute.
0:10:42 It’s probably on business.
0:10:42 See above.
0:10:43 Someone else is paying.
0:10:45 We jack up the rates.
0:10:47 And these guys are learning about price discrimination.
0:10:54 The thing that bothers me is that more and more people are being, or the wealthy are sequestering
0:10:56 from the middle class.
0:10:59 And that is we are going further and further behind velvet ropes.
0:11:04 I basically won’t go anywhere now that’s not a members club because I want to know I’m going
0:11:04 to get in.
0:11:06 I want to be treated really well.
0:11:07 And I want to go somewhere.
0:11:10 I mean, all my exploration vibe has gone away.
0:11:15 And I worry that it’s just taking younger people and people who don’t have as much money.
0:11:19 We’re further and further sequestering from each other, which means we have less empathy
0:11:21 for them, less mixing.
0:11:24 Also, young people can’t afford this shit.
0:11:25 And I’m going to end here.
0:11:29 And that is I think the government should be subsidizing third places through tax policy.
0:11:34 And that is if you can show that you are getting a ton of people under the age of 40 into an
0:11:39 environment where they’re together, whether, I mean, obviously churches and religious institutions
0:11:41 have tax exempt status.
0:11:47 But there’s a place called Putt Shack in the UK that brings together young, obviously kids.
0:11:51 But at night, a lot of young people go or the Topgolf or bars or pubs.
0:11:56 40%, get this, 40% of nightclubs in London have closed since COVID.
0:12:02 One of the things I like about London is they zone a beautiful piece of real estate just for pubs.
0:12:08 So you can buy a pub for fairly little money in an amazing neighborhood in Marlebone or Mayfair,
0:12:11 but you can’t do anything with it except you have to keep it a pub.
0:12:15 And I love that because I think more people need to get out, be around each other, and quite frankly,
0:12:19 drink more and make a series of bad decisions that might pay off.
0:12:25 And I worry that this trend towards members’ clubs is further sequestering people with money
0:12:31 from people who don’t have money and also less mixing and also we’re pricing out young people’s
0:12:35 ability to meet, to demonstrate excellence to each other, maybe to have a drink or two,
0:12:41 bring their inhibitions down and say, hey, I think you’re ridiculously hot.
0:12:42 Will you go to the movies with me on Sunday?
0:12:47 Speaking for a friend, when I look back on all, and this is kind of embarrassing.
0:12:48 Is it embarrassing?
0:12:51 What do I do that’s not embarrassing?
0:12:53 Seriously, what do I do?
0:12:54 What do I do?
0:13:01 Anyways, when I look back on all of my friendships, a decent proportion of them and a vast majority
0:13:05 of my romantic relationships, alcohol has played a role.
0:13:11 And what has definitely played a role is being in environments with strangers in a safe place
0:13:16 where we all felt some sort of agency and comity of man.
0:13:18 And there’s just fewer and fewer of those places.
0:13:22 We are sequestering behind a velvet rope in our society.
0:13:24 And quite frankly, it’s not a good thing.
0:13:26 Okay, enough of that.
0:13:30 In today’s episode, we speak with Ian Bremmer, the president and founder of Eurasia Group,
0:13:32 the world’s leading political risk research and consulting firm.
0:13:36 It’s Ian’s 12th appearance on the show.
0:13:36 Love, Ian.
0:13:37 Love, Ian.
0:13:38 He’s Canadian.
0:13:40 He doesn’t know it yet, but he’s Canadian.
0:13:44 We discuss with Ian Trump’s tariffs, U.S.-China relations, the latest developments in Iran,
0:13:47 and the war in Ukraine.
0:13:48 He’s my Yoda.
0:13:49 He’s my Yoda.
0:13:50 Right?
0:13:51 Wait.
0:13:54 So these are my two imitations from movies.
0:13:55 I just spawned this.
0:13:55 All right.
0:13:58 First, this is Darth Vader from Star Wars.
0:13:58 Okay, get ready.
0:14:01 Trust your feelings.
0:14:03 You know this to be true.
0:14:04 All right.
0:14:06 That’s imitation number one.
0:14:09 Big hit with my eight-year-old son when he was eight.
0:14:10 Not so much anymore.
0:14:11 All right.
0:14:12 And here it is, my second impression.
0:14:13 Dr. Evil.
0:14:15 How about no?
0:14:17 Oh, that’s so money.
0:14:20 That is so money.
0:14:21 All right.
0:14:26 With that, here’s our conversation with Ian Bremmer, the president and founder of Eurasia Group.
0:14:40 Ian, where does this podcast find you?
0:14:48 I am in New York at my office and in the middle of the milestone that we are dealing with.
0:14:49 There you go.
0:14:51 So we’ll bust right into it.
0:14:58 There seems to be an obsession with how Trump’s tariff plan is impacting the markets and how it might impact U.S. consumers.
0:15:02 Talk a little bit about if and how it sort of reshapes the world order.
0:15:07 Specifically, what are the geopolitical ramifications in terms of our relationships with other nations?
0:15:07 Yeah.
0:15:20 I mean, this is yet one more component of something you and I have been nibbling around, which is the reputational capital of our country, right?
0:15:40 I mean, other countries around the world align with us and do our bidding in part because we’re strong and in part because they believe that we are like we’ll actually do what we say because they have a level of trust and confidence that we will act as we say we will act going forward.
0:15:57 And we’ve done an awful lot to shake the ladder over the past weeks, whether it is the way we treat judges or law firms or universities or green card holders in the United States,
0:16:17 or whether it’s the way we treat territorial integrity in Denmark and Greenland and Panama, in Canada, or it’s the way we treat our treaty obligations, our tariff obligations, our trade relationships, our partners, our allies.
0:16:25 I mean, all of these things were basically saying to everybody else around the world, look, we’re stronger than you are.
0:16:29 So that’s all that really matters is what we say and you’re going to do it.
0:16:41 And it can be arbitrary and capricious and we can change our mind, you know, three times before breakfast as, you know, as through the looking glass days, right?
0:16:46 That’s kind of where we find ourselves is through the geopolitical looking glass.
0:16:51 Who do you think, well, let’s talk about outside of the U.S., who are the biggest winners and the biggest losers?
0:16:56 And let’s just assume that we agree that Ukraine is probably a loser so far.
0:17:00 But I’m just with respect to tariffs, who do you think the biggest winners and losers are abroad?
0:17:06 You know, Scott, the biggest winners are nobody.
0:17:32 I mean, honestly, if you’re looking at the last 50 years that created this unparalleled period of global growth, improved efficiency, lower prices, and an emerging global middle class that unlocked human capital that everyone in the world could benefit from, you’re undoing that.
0:17:41 So, I mean, some countries are going to get hit in the face and knocked out and others are just going to have a glancing blow and they can keep walking.
0:17:42 But you wouldn’t call the latter winners.
0:17:45 You just say they aren’t really losers.
0:17:49 So in that regard, there are a lot of countries, I think, that’ll be just fine.
0:17:54 I mean, India, for example, in this environment will be just fine.
0:17:58 They’re taking a hit from the U.S., but it’s not going to matter much for their growth.
0:18:05 Maybe, you know, sort of 20 basis points, max half a point to GDP for a very strong growing economy.
0:18:12 They’ll benefit from all of the unwinding between the U.S. and China and a lot more people will end up going in.
0:18:15 So on balance, like net-net, India should be OK.
0:18:19 Gulf states, everyone has to work with them no matter what.
0:18:20 They’re rich.
0:18:21 They’re pretty diverse.
0:18:21 They’re stable.
0:18:26 You know, Trump is going out there shortly, going to visit Saudi, UAE, Qatar.
0:18:28 You know, they feel pretty comfortable with him.
0:18:30 That’s going to be fine.
0:18:33 They can deal with, you know, a slight increase in tariffs.
0:18:37 The longer term, there are some winners.
0:18:39 There are some big winners.
0:18:58 The Mexicans and Canadians long term are winners because they will find ways to ensure that USMCA gets renegotiated and that will create more post-crisis tested resilience for the most important integrated common market in the world.
0:19:16 And China long term will also benefit because the United States will have given up so much reputational capital and China will be able to take advantage of that, particularly in the global south, but also to a degree in Asia, the Japanese, the South Koreans, to a degree in Europe.
0:19:19 But in the near term, China gets hit really badly.
0:19:23 In the near term, Mexico and Canada get hit really badly.
0:19:28 In the near term, the United States is the comparative winner, and I expect that to be reflected in the markets.
0:19:42 So I think it’s hard to argue that international trade or free trade over the medium – there’s some short-term losers in specific industries, but over the medium and the long term, I would argue it’s probably been the biggest economic unlock of the last hundred years.
0:19:49 And that it’s not a zero-sum game and that, you know, prosperity elsewhere, we make something really well.
0:19:51 They make something really well for less money and we trade.
0:20:06 I wonder if actually sooner rather than later, I see the biggest winner is China because I would imagine and I believe Chinese diplomats and economic ministers are roaming the world saying, you may not love us, but you can count on us.
0:20:25 I think they’re going to scoop up so much trade that it’ll not only replace what they lose from the U.S., it’ll net-net that it’ll be a positive actually pretty soon in terms of – I mean, I just saw that Japan and South Korea are having discussions with China for the first time in a while.
0:20:29 I wonder if China is a really big winner here, your thoughts.
0:20:32 I think it’s the right question to ask, Scott.
0:20:40 I always like our conversations because you immediately get into the important issues and want to, like, thrash them out, right?
0:20:43 And I take the other side of that.
0:21:02 First of all, on the Japan-South Korea-China discussions, which were discussions among their trade ministers, they certainly, in an environment where the U.S. is raising tariffs with reckless abandon and may not be willing to undo them, at least not immediately,
0:21:12 these are countries that trade a lot with each other and need to make sure that that trade is comparatively frictionless or at least has less friction to it.
0:21:18 So I do think there’ll be more coordination, but they won’t coordinate policies vis-a-vis the U.S.
0:21:30 because the Japanese and South Koreans still really need the U.S. in technology and particularly in security, and they don’t trust the Chinese on that, and that’s not going to change.
0:21:47 But the more important point is that China is seriously underperforming economically, and if the United States is getting involved in a trade war with China, in other words, if the additional 50 percent actually gets implemented,
0:21:55 and I know that Trump says it’s happening as of midnight on the day that you and I are now speaking, he could easily decide, you know what, we’re going to talk to them.
0:21:56 They just called me.
0:21:58 They just set up a call.
0:21:58 It’s going to be great.
0:21:59 It’ll be fine.
0:22:01 You know, I’ll make it okay.
0:22:02 Maybe he suspends that.
0:22:07 Maybe he kicks down an hour, but let’s assume that what he said actually stands and he actually implements that.
0:22:13 That is a trade war that the Chinese can afford a lot less than the Americans can.
0:22:15 They have a lot less leverage.
0:22:17 They do have more patience.
0:22:20 Maybe they have more political stability in the long term.
0:22:27 They certainly have a leader that’s going to be in place for a lot longer, but their domestic economy is not working.
0:22:29 Their population is not buying.
0:22:35 They don’t want to spend because they don’t trust the government and they don’t have consumer confidence.
0:22:54 They are manufacturing a lot and they’re dumping and they’re dumping in a way that is going to be much harder to do, given all of these U.S. tariffs, not just against China and against the Japanese and South Koreans, but also against all the countries that the Chinese are exporting to and through to the United States.
0:22:57 Some of the countries that got hit the worst were in Southeast Asia.
0:23:01 Those are precisely the countries where the Chinese are exporting and getting into the U.S.
0:23:03 Well, that’s going to get closed down.
0:23:05 So I think they’re in trouble.
0:23:09 I think that there is going to be a lot of capital flight.
0:23:11 They’ve got about three trillion in reserves right now.
0:23:18 Last time they got a serious financial crisis, they were from four point five, went down to three in six months.
0:23:25 There is an argument to be made that their economy is going to be truly and unprecedentedly tested.
0:23:31 So I think in the near term, they’re actually in a lot of pain.
0:23:45 And I think that they’re going to be careful in not doing further tit for tat against the Americans like the immediate 34 percent announcement that they made in the hopes that that was going to calm it down.
0:23:48 I would take the other side of the China bet.
0:23:50 I think that’s super interesting.
0:23:52 And I think you’ve changed my you’ve changed my view.
0:23:55 I thought China really was the big winner here.
0:23:59 I mean, but I think you’re right that they’re going to be the big winner, but they have to be patient.
0:24:04 They have to be able to get through getting really hit in the face by the most powerful country in the world.
0:24:07 And it just ain’t going to be easy for them long term, though.
0:24:14 I mean, you know, you can just imagine not only on the stuff we’re talking about now, but U.S. leaves USAID, shuts it down.
0:24:15 Like who’s dominant?
0:24:17 Who’s the dominant trade partner of every global South country?
0:24:19 That’s China, right?
0:24:23 Who’s going to be able to pick up much more influence over that part of the world?
0:24:23 China.
0:24:30 U.S. leaves the Paris Climate Accord, says that, you know, climate’s not something we’re paying attention to anymore.
0:24:35 Who’s leading the world in transition energy, sustainability and supply chain?
0:24:36 China.
0:24:39 Who’s going to drive the COP summits going forward?
0:24:39 China.
0:24:51 So, I mean, I can absolutely see there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Chinese, for our principal adversary, that’s actually really quite dangerous for us.
0:24:56 We have to be very careful about that, especially because it’s not like they don’t know how to do new technology.
0:25:00 You saw DeepSeq and that announcement.
0:25:02 I mean, they’re very capable.
0:25:03 They’re going to build data centers.
0:25:06 They have cheap energy available.
0:25:10 I mean, they’re going to be competitive with the U.S., even in artificial intelligence.
0:25:19 So we’ve got to be careful, and we’re the ones undoing our Chips Act, right, which makes no sense whatsoever, especially if you’re trying to get more manufacturing in the U.S.
0:25:23 Like, we don’t want to build – we don’t want to make sneakers.
0:25:29 We want to make semiconductors, and you’re ripping up the one thing that we have that’s going to drive more semiconductor production in the U.S.
0:25:31 I don’t know why they’re doing that.
0:25:36 But the Chinese, long term, I think, do have lots of opportunities.
0:25:37 I’m just worried about them right now.
0:25:41 We’ll be right back after a quick break.
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0:28:10 The Nintendo Switch 2 is basically guaranteed to be the most interesting gadget of 2025.
0:28:13 And we learned a lot of new stuff about it this last week or so.
0:28:16 Some of the games that are coming out, some of the specs of the new device,
0:28:20 and the fact that it’s going to cost $449.99.
0:28:24 Except maybe it’s not, because the other thing going on right now is tariffs.
0:28:28 And tariffs threaten to change just about everything about tech.
0:28:34 What it is, how it’s made, where it comes from, and crucially, how much we have to pay for it.
0:28:38 So that’s what we’re talking about on The Vergecast all week, wherever you get podcasts.
0:28:48 So this has dominated the headlines, and I find that the U.S., we’re narcissists.
0:28:55 We want to talk about ourselves, and we also, I would say, struggle with or suffer from an idolatry of the dollar.
0:29:00 So if the NASDAQ goes down, you know, that dominates the headlines over anything else.
0:29:06 Catch us up, for those of us who have been distracted from what’s going on in Ukraine and in Gaza.
0:29:12 Give us a sense for what has happened over the last four, eight weeks,
0:29:18 as we have been totally distracted with discussions of the market falling 10 percent.
0:29:24 Well, let me start with the biggest news this week, which is what’s happening in Iran.
0:29:32 So you probably saw that the Israeli prime minister, I can make a transition here, just came to the Oval Office.
0:29:40 And, you know, he had said, we’re proactively taking all of our tariffs off the United States, zeroing them out.
0:29:44 And Netanyahu, of course, thought his great friend, who doesn’t really like him,
0:29:47 but nonetheless has certainly been a big supporter, Donald Trump.
0:29:54 He’s going to come to the Oval, and the U.S. will announce that those tariffs will also be removed.
0:29:55 And that did not happen.
0:30:02 Instead, what happened was the U.S. said, we’re going to keep them on.
0:30:07 And by the way, you should be really appreciative because we spend so much money in aid for your military,
0:30:10 billions of dollars a year, by the way.
0:30:18 Also said, Turkey, Erdogan, my great friend, so trusted, really appreciate what he’s doing for us in Syria,
0:30:20 which, of course, the Israelis are on the other side of.
0:30:29 And then said, by the way, we’re going to open direct negotiations with Iran, with the Iranian government,
0:30:31 which, by the way, is not actually true.
0:30:39 The Iranians said they would do indirect talks through Oman, but that if those initial talks went well,
0:30:42 they’d be willing to do direct talks with the U.S., which is new.
0:30:47 It is actually a concession and is exactly not what the Israeli prime minister wanted to hear.
0:30:57 So, I mean, his his meeting in the Oval wasn’t quite as bad as Zelensky’s a month ago when Vance beat him up and everyone went nuts.
0:31:03 But it was it was the worst trip that Netanyahu has had to the United States since the war.
0:31:04 There’s no question about that.
0:31:05 I mean, you know, long, long time.
0:31:07 Barely registered in the Western media.
0:31:08 Yeah.
0:31:08 Yeah.
0:31:09 Well, I figured I mean.
0:31:17 And so you now have the United States saying they’re going to start negotiations with Iran directly.
0:31:22 And they’re going to see if I mean, Iran’s in a very, very weak position.
0:31:37 One of Iran’s remaining proxy fighters in Iraq, the Islamic resistance in Iraq that has been part of the attacks on U.S. troops and others in the region.
0:31:43 They have said that they’re going to voluntarily disarm because the Americans said they were going to blow the crap out of them.
0:31:46 So you’ve got the U.S. fighting the Houthis.
0:31:49 That was the whole signal gate thing from a couple of weeks ago.
0:31:54 And that hasn’t been very successful so far, but certainly trying to deal with that.
0:31:56 Now you have the Americans.
0:31:58 Hezbollah is gone.
0:31:59 Israel took care of them.
0:32:04 Hamas has obviously been blown up consistently over the last year plus.
0:32:10 And now you have the U.S. going to the Iranians and saying we’re willing to negotiate.
0:32:14 And if it doesn’t work out, there’s going to be hell to pay.
0:32:18 But the intention is not is not to engage in military strikes.
0:32:30 The intention is to try to see if you can do something better, something bigger and broader and more lasting than the JCPOA, the nuclear deal that was signed under Obama.
0:32:32 That was a multilateral deal.
0:32:33 This would be a bilateral deal.
0:32:41 But that’s probably the most important thing that has changed in the last few weeks on the geopolitical front.
0:32:43 Ukraine.
0:32:44 Ukraine.
0:32:54 So the Ukrainians, I mean, the news today is that there were two Chinese citizens that the Ukrainians captured that were fighting with Russia.
0:32:56 It’s a non-issue.
0:32:59 It’s not like the People’s Liberation Army had sent them there.
0:33:03 There are Americans that citizens happen to be fighting in Ukraine, too.
0:33:06 And it’s that’s because they have the right to leave and travel and whatever.
0:33:13 The Ukrainians have accepted the ceasefire terms provided by Trump with no conditions.
0:33:14 The Russians have not.
0:33:15 The Russians have not.
0:33:22 And that is something that is increasingly irritating Trump.
0:33:26 He’s been more than willing to engage directly with Putin.
0:33:37 There’s been a lot of back and forth between Putin’s advisors and cabinet, including the head of his sovereign wealth fund, Dmitriev, who just actually came.
0:33:50 He was sanctioned and has a visa suspended, but he was just allowed to come in an exception made a few days ago to the White House, where he had good conversations with Steve Whitcoff, the special envoy and others.
0:34:00 So the Russians are very interested in doing a deal with the Americans and getting investment from the Americans and pulling sanctions off, of course.
0:34:06 But they have not been willing to accept American terms for a ceasefire.
0:34:14 And Trump has now said a couple of times, you know, I’m not I’m running out of patience here.
0:34:31 So you need to accept a ceasefire and it doesn’t require me pulling sanctions off and it doesn’t require Zelensky leaving office because he’s there and you’ve got to deal with them or else I’m going to put much tougher sanctions against Russia.
0:34:42 He has not yet at least said or else I’m going to send much more military support to Ukraine, something he had said before he was elected, hasn’t come back to that.
0:34:57 But certainly Zelensky’s position with Trump in the U.S. today is dramatically better and more normalized than it was when he visited the White House in that shambolic meeting a few weeks ago.
0:35:00 What’s actually happened on the ground over the last couple of months in Ukraine?
0:35:04 They’ve lost a tiny amount of territory.
0:35:10 The Russians continue to make territorial gains, but every month they’re making smaller and smaller gains.
0:35:13 And so you would say that the front lines have mostly held.
0:35:27 The exception is that small amount of territory inside Russia around Kursk that the Ukrainians had suddenly quite surprisingly taken with the cost of about 40,000 men being redeployed to that area.
0:35:34 Most of those men have now had to withdraw and the Russians have retaken almost all of their territory.
0:35:41 You said on a previous broadcast that, you know, this was just not sustainable for Ukraine.
0:35:46 And I like the Lincoln quote that you can’t win a war without public support and you can’t lose a war with it.
0:35:50 Has the mood changed at all in Ukraine?
0:35:59 I mean, at some point in its buff of World War II history, it strikes me that Russia’s core confidence is this willingness to endure a lot of pain.
0:36:06 Do you see any evidence over the last couple of months as this kind of meat grinder continues to grind on that this war is losing support in Russia?
0:36:12 Or is it the same as it always was and you still hold to Ukraine as, you know, running on borrowed time?
0:36:16 I hold to both, but there have been small shifts in Russia, less of a shift.
0:36:23 The Russians have just finished yet another call up of of reservists, of troops, hundreds of thousands, which they do every year.
0:36:25 But they had no problem in getting those numbers.
0:36:31 They’re also spending a lot more money on getting troops to the front.
0:36:40 They’ve increased the bonus salaries dramatically, you know, sort of 50x what the average Russian worker could expect in an entry level job.
0:36:53 And that’s made a difference to certainly no demonstrations on the ground in Russia or any opposition to what you’re seeing, despite the fact that they’ve, you know, had like a million casualties, which is just an astonishing number, right?
0:36:54 Again, not dead.
0:36:57 I mean, dead is more in the hundred thousand plus.
0:37:09 But I mean, still, I mean, the impact that has on society in Russia is so meaningful and it just shows how much control Putin has over the country, over the information networks, all of that.
0:37:11 Now, for Ukraine, it’s interesting.
0:37:17 Militarily, they’re still going to run out of steam come summer.
0:37:23 And certainly they’re having a harder time with their own raising of reserves.
0:37:35 And, you know, they’re, they’re only, they still haven’t, I mean, the age of the call up, I think, went down from 28 to 25, but it’s, they have been very reluctant to go to 21 or 18.
0:37:37 They’re just, it’s enormously unpopular.
0:37:39 And that’s problematic for them.
0:38:02 Olenski’s popularity, which had been trending downward somewhat, though it was still like in the 50s, 60s, is now back up to high 70s on the back of that trip to the White House, where he stood strong and refused to end up signing what was seen as an exploitative critical minerals deal.
0:38:09 And giving back as, as good as he got effectively from Trump and Vance.
0:38:19 So if there were elections in the near term, and constitutionally there can’t be because there’s martial law because a big piece of their territory is occupied by foreign invaders.
0:38:23 But if there were elections today, it’s very clear that Zelensky would win.
0:38:33 And I think that that actually put, makes it easier for him to start negotiations with the Russians and not fear that he’s going to be ousted domestically.
0:38:39 So he actually has somewhat more flexibility diplomatically, even though his military position hasn’t improved.
0:38:43 That meeting was such a low point for us, us being in the U.S.
0:38:55 Let me outline what might be a Pollyanna scenario, and you tell me where, if there’s anything, you know, if there’s any veracity or any hope that this might come to fruition.
0:38:59 The EU is a $19 trillion economy combined.
0:39:01 Russia is a $2 trillion economy.
0:39:02 It’s smaller than Canada’s economy.
0:39:17 That if the recognition that the military umbrella of the U.S. no longer applies, that we’re not going to weigh in, and that we have become an inconsistent, sclerotic partner, that, you know, rich Uncle Sam cannot be counted on.
0:39:18 He’s lost his shit.
0:39:27 And the EU, for the first time, Europe becomes a union, increases their defense budget, as they’ve announced, from 1.9% to 3%.
0:39:30 They don’t have the surface-to-air capabilities.
0:39:33 They still need the U.S., but they do have a great manufacturing base.
0:39:40 French, U.K., and German companies, you know, if Germany makes an amazing car, they should be able to make an amazing tank, and they do.
0:39:45 And they’re able to actually push back on Russia without the aid of the U.S.
0:39:48 And, you know, glory to the EU.
0:39:54 Am I being, am I smoking my own crack pipe here?
0:39:56 No, no.
0:40:07 I mean, there’s definitely a lot more that the Europeans can and should be doing, and they’ve become more unified around the EU because of Trump.
0:40:09 I mean, Trump is a great unifier.
0:40:14 He’s unifying the Canadians, who, you know, now the liberals are likely to win.
0:40:18 Polly Eve, the conservative, was a slam dunk.
0:40:29 And Trudeau, of course, after 10 years, had lost all of his credibility, and yet the Canadians have completely unified against the United States.
0:40:34 Mexico, Claudia Scheinbaum, 85% approval ratings right now.
0:40:48 Anger with the EU, much stronger now, favoring the EU, spending more, supporting their own defensive capabilities, supporting investing more in technology,
0:41:01 And hitting the Americans back on tariffs because of what they see coming from the U.S., not just in terms of economic policy, but also in terms of undermining their own democracies in Europe,
0:41:11 Algorithmically direct support from Elon, from Vance, from others, for people like the AFD, who are considered a neo-Nazi party in Germany, and support for Russia.
0:41:16 So, right, so all of those things are making the Europeans do more.
0:41:18 But is more enough?
0:41:20 Is more enough?
0:41:28 Because, Scott, the Europeans have not spent on defense for 40 years, right?
0:41:29 Almost 40 years.
0:41:32 And so it’s not like, okay, now they’re going to spend 3%.
0:41:37 Okay, so how long is it going to take them to get to the point they can defend themselves?
0:41:43 Now, defending themselves against a $2 trillion Russian economy, frankly, isn’t all that hard.
0:41:46 Russia will do asymmetric things.
0:41:48 They will engage in cyberattacks.
0:41:50 They will engage in espionage.
0:41:51 They will blow up critical infrastructure.
0:41:52 They’re already doing that.
0:42:00 They’ll use a network on Telegram to order a whole bunch of local citizens to commit crimes, arson, vandalism, you name it.
0:42:03 But they’re not going to send tanks into the Baltics.
0:42:05 They’re not going to send tanks into Poland.
0:42:06 They get crushed.
0:42:09 So that’s not what I’m worried about.
0:42:20 But can Europe rebuild fast enough that they could defend the Ukrainians in a Russian war that the Russians are completely committed to?
0:42:23 And the answer there, I think, is no.
0:42:25 I think that answer is no.
0:42:55 And I also don’t know whether the Europeans spending more on defense are going to stay aligned enough to allow them to become independent from the U.S. defensively in five and ten years’ time, given that there is a vastly greater level of security concern in countries that are not economically performing well, unlike the United States, that aren’t productive, that don’t have big tech.
0:43:08 I mean, if you’re Spain or Italy or even France, how much are you prepared to spend in your tightly contested budget on long-term defense?
0:43:11 Are you willing to spend the way the U.S. does?
0:43:12 The answer is probably not.
0:43:13 What about Germany?
0:43:18 They’ve made some enormous announcements to get rid of their debt break.
0:43:22 But the new government that’s coming in, assuming they can put the government together.
0:43:26 And by the way, everyone assumes that Mertz is going to have no problem putting that government together.
0:43:30 There’s like probably a 10% chance that he fails in constructing a government, right?
0:43:33 And then we’re in a very, very different place.
0:43:41 But assuming he does in the next month-ish, the fact that they have the debt break gone doesn’t mean that they’re going to spend all that money.
0:43:46 It doesn’t mean they’re prepared to actually change EU borrowing rules to allow them to.
0:43:48 It’s going to be a very weak government.
0:44:16 So as I look forward three, four, five years, I still see a significant likelihood that in many of the countries you’re talking about, we’re going to end up with more Trump-aligned, Orban-aligned, Mille-aligned, Bukele-aligned governments that get elected in in Europe, which weakens the EU, which makes it harder to talk about a collective security among the European states themselves, a coalition of the willing.
0:44:18 We’ll be right back.
0:44:30 So we want to introduce you to another show from our network and your next favorite money podcast, for ours, of course.
0:44:36 Net Worth and Chill hosts Vivian Tu is a former Wall Street trader turned finance expert and entrepreneur.
0:44:41 She shares common financial struggles and gives actionable tips and advice on how to make the most of your money.
0:44:47 Past guests include Nicole Yoder, a leading fertility doctor who breaks down the complex world of reproductive medicine and the financial cost of the economy.
0:44:54 And divorce attorney, Jackie Combs, who talks about love and divorce and why everyone should have a prenup.
0:44:57 Episodes of Net Worth and Chill are released every Wednesday.
0:45:01 Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube.
0:45:02 By the way, I absolutely love Vivian Tu.
0:45:04 I think she does a great job.
0:45:15 We’re back with more with our good friend, Ian Bremmer.
0:45:18 So you brought up Canada.
0:45:20 I’m curious to get your thoughts on Prime Minister Carney.
0:45:22 Well, he’s a friend.
0:45:26 I mean, I’m completely biased in that regard.
0:45:27 I’ve known him for a long, long time.
0:45:28 You strike me as very Canadian.
0:45:34 He’s, look, I mean, he’s, I don’t, most Canadians don’t strike me as very Canadian.
0:45:36 No, no, no, no, you strike me as Canadian.
0:45:37 Oh, me?
0:45:39 Oh, 100%.
0:45:39 You’re very…
0:45:40 What the hell does that mean?
0:45:42 I think I’m almost offended by you saying that.
0:45:43 What do you mean by that?
0:45:47 Super friendly, super nice, educated, pretty easy to get along with.
0:45:48 Okay.
0:45:50 Exceptionally Caucasian.
0:45:55 If you said, like, a bit of a weenie, I would be really a little upset, you know, that would be…
0:45:57 How do you get 100 drunk Canadian fraternity brothers out of your pool?
0:45:59 Hey, guys, would you please get out of the pool?
0:46:01 I love, by the way, I love Canada.
0:46:02 I was conceived in Canada.
0:46:03 Let’s bring this back to me, Ian.
0:46:04 Okay, good.
0:46:04 I was conceived.
0:46:05 You were, where in Canada were you conceived?
0:46:06 In Toronto.
0:46:10 And then my parents were sick of the weather and seven months pregnant.
0:46:14 My mom loaded up her Austin Mini Metro with my dad and they moved to San Diego.
0:46:19 I’m actually thinking, and I’m going to rope you into this, I want to do an I Love Canada
0:46:20 tour and I want to get together.
0:46:22 Yeah, I would be good for that.
0:46:22 You would.
0:46:28 I’m thinking Toronto, Montreal, Montreal in the summer, Vancouver, pick a fourth city,
0:46:30 but I would like to do an I Love Canada tour.
0:46:32 Anyways, you’re signed up and you’re included.
0:46:33 What do you think of Carney?
0:46:37 Well, look, again, I mean, I say it because…
0:46:38 As a fellow Canadian.
0:46:39 As a fellow Canadian, yeah, exactly.
0:46:50 He is, I mean, intellectually, economically, he is a generational mind for Canada on the global
0:46:50 stage.
0:46:54 When he was Central Bank Governor in Canada, when he was Central Bank Governor in the UK,
0:46:56 right?
0:47:04 Through Brexit, this was a guy that was respected incredibly highly by every other major interlocutor,
0:47:12 by the entire G7, by all of the CEOs of the financial institutions, by the central bankers.
0:47:14 I mean, they all have a lot of time for him.
0:47:20 I mean, he’s the one Canadian that Macron seriously respects at a high level.
0:47:26 Christine Lagarde thinks the world of Mark Carney, you know, all of that.
0:47:32 And I mean, at a time when the Canadians are facing an unprecedented challenge economically
0:47:37 from their most important trade partner, you understand why so many people are suddenly
0:47:39 flipping towards him.
0:47:45 And, you know, until very recently, we really thought Paulie Ebb was going to win because,
0:47:51 again, the liberals have so outlived their welcome in Canada.
0:47:56 But it’s interesting, bringing Carney in and getting rid of Chrystia Freeland, who was the
0:48:01 deputy prime minister, is what the United States didn’t do and what the U.S. needed to do,
0:48:01 right?
0:48:06 You had Biden, who had completely outstayed his welcome and was completely incapable and
0:48:07 incoherent at the end.
0:48:13 And instead, they brought in someone who was basically undifferentiated from Biden.
0:48:14 When asked, what would you do differently?
0:48:16 The answer was absolutely nothing.
0:48:19 This is an anti-incumbent wave, people.
0:48:21 You can’t run an incumbent.
0:48:26 And Biden ran an incumbent and lost, even against a very unpopular Trump.
0:48:31 And the Canadians are, got rid of their incumbent, got rid of the deputy.
0:48:34 Now they’re running an outsider who’s probably going to win.
0:48:42 And I think he’ll actually, he’ll end up having a fairly unified Canada, even though it’s a
0:48:43 different system.
0:48:44 It’s a parliamentary system.
0:48:51 And he might have to govern in coalition because everyone in Canada is so incredibly angry at the
0:48:57 United States, so incredibly unnecessary, the fight that the Americans have decided to pick
0:48:58 with them.
0:49:03 I mean, part of the problem I have with what Trump is doing is that he is picking every fight
0:49:04 simultaneously, right?
0:49:09 So like, if you want to go and reorganize the global trade order at a time when the U.S. economy
0:49:17 is particularly strong, then you should also be leaning into U.S. industrial policy at home.
0:49:19 So don’t get rid of the CHIPS Act.
0:49:20 Expand the CHIPS Act.
0:49:22 It was too small to begin with, right?
0:49:24 Don’t go after American universities.
0:49:28 Expand funding in American universities because you need the best talent from around the world
0:49:31 not to stay there, but to come to the United States.
0:49:33 Don’t undermine rule of law.
0:49:36 You need people believing in rule of law and contracts.
0:49:39 You want, in other words, make the consistent bet.
0:49:44 But the only consistent thing is that Trump wants to beat up on everybody all at the same
0:49:45 time.
0:49:52 And that, unfortunately, even for the most powerful country in the world, is going to end up hurting
0:49:52 us a lot.
0:50:01 And beating up on the Canadians was, you know, really, among a lot of stupid things, it was
0:50:02 the stupidest thing that we could do.
0:50:03 Yeah.
0:50:08 The people, you mean the people who hit us in the Iran hostage crisis, largest undefended
0:50:08 border?
0:50:10 Just talk about head up your ass.
0:50:11 I agree with you.
0:50:16 I love that saying that I’ve been quoting a lot.
0:50:18 It’s attributed to Churchill, but I think it was actually Victor Hugo.
0:50:24 The only thing worse than fighting with your allies is fighting without them.
0:50:28 We’ve essentially decided we’re not even just going to fight with allies because we’re, to
0:50:29 your point, fighting with all of them at the same time.
0:50:31 We’re now fighting without our allies.
0:50:37 I apologize for hopping around here, but you mentioned that a lot of nations, unfortunately,
0:50:39 or the world seems to be headed towards people like Orban.
0:50:42 I’ve actually been quite inspired by some of the protests in Hungary.
0:50:43 Do you think that’s more show?
0:50:46 My sense is that’s pretty powerful.
0:50:46 What are your thoughts?
0:50:48 Yeah, absolutely.
0:50:54 I mean, you know, Orban has, first of all, his economy has performed very badly, and so
0:50:56 the people are angry about that.
0:51:06 His corruption and his willingness to control with a group of oligarchs, key industries, as
0:51:14 well as the media, is something that is not appreciated among rank and foul Hungarians, specifically
0:51:14 not in the cities.
0:51:16 Again, it’s kind of like Moscow, right?
0:51:18 When you had problems with Putin, it was only the urban center.
0:51:21 They did very well in the rural areas and the smaller towns.
0:51:28 Hungary, it’s the same thing, but in Budapest itself, very easy now to rally large, large groups
0:51:30 of Hungarians, specifically against Orban.
0:51:32 So he’s doing very badly.
0:51:38 But, I mean, you know, getting rid of him in an environment where he controls so much of
0:51:44 the judicial power, so much of the media power, so much in how elections are conducted, you
0:51:47 just don’t have the checks and balances there, so it’s much harder to get rid of him.
0:51:52 Look, Turkey, there have been really big demonstrations in Istanbul, not in other parts of the country
0:51:59 because they haven’t been allowed, and Turkey has just taken a complete big step, a leap into
0:52:01 full-on dictatorship, right?
0:52:08 Where they have arrested the opposition leader who was about to announce his own run for the
0:52:12 presidency and was the one guy that could have beaten Erdogan, and now he’s not going to be able to run.
0:52:14 And you know what?
0:52:16 Trump says Erdogan’s his best friend.
0:52:19 The Europeans need him, so they’re not complaining very much.
0:52:21 He’s going to get away with it.
0:52:27 So, as we wrap up here, let’s come back home, and I think of you as someone who’s an expert
0:52:32 on geopolitics and domestic politics isn’t your focus, but you’re able to do something I think
0:52:36 99% of us are not able to do, and I’m certainly not able to do, and that is you’re able to separate
0:52:38 your emotions from the facts.
0:52:45 How do you see this shaping up as Trump’s current policies so far are shaping up for,
0:52:51 and I know it’s early, for 26 and the general fulcrum or the general power structure between
0:52:53 the Democrats and Republicans right now?
0:52:53 Any observations?
0:52:54 Yeah.
0:52:57 Well, first of all, I mean, you’re very kind to say that, Scott.
0:53:02 I don’t know that I can always separate my emotions from my analysis, but I try to at least
0:53:05 be aware of when they’re hitting it, you know, and be honest about it when it comes.
0:53:08 It’s like when you just asked me about, like, you know, Canada, and I’m like, okay,
0:53:11 well, let me tell you, like, I’ve got an emotional connection there.
0:53:18 On the United States, you know, I think that Trump has an opportunity here.
0:53:19 I don’t know that he’s going to take it.
0:53:29 You know, you and I both know that the Republican voting base is no longer the free trade, certainly
0:53:34 not neocon, U.S. lead the world thing.
0:53:41 It is working class, middle class, especially non-college educated, and especially men.
0:53:44 And, you know, you talk to a lot of these people.
0:53:47 You inspire a lot of these people, especially young people around the country, which I really
0:53:48 appreciate.
0:53:52 And I think that Trump needs to lean into that.
0:53:56 So, you know, this, the markets are taking a hit.
0:53:57 Okay.
0:53:59 And portfolios are getting hit.
0:53:59 Okay.
0:54:02 Well, a lot of the people I just mentioned don’t have portfolios.
0:54:02 Right.
0:54:10 So, what, what, what, what you, if you made that a feature, you would then also say, we’re
0:54:16 not doing the extended tax cuts for the highest bracket.
0:54:17 We’re going to snap those back.
0:54:22 And yeah, there’s going to be inflation and these tariffs to rebalance.
0:54:27 We’re going to have to, the corporations are going to get hit because they’ve taken advantage.
0:54:28 They’ve taken all the profits.
0:54:34 The foreigners have taken advantage that they’ve done so well, but what about our own
0:54:35 middle and working classes?
0:54:40 We’re going to redistribute the sales tax that we collect on these tariffs.
0:54:43 We’re going to redistribute it, that to the poor and the middle class.
0:54:47 And, um, I don’t think he’s going to do that.
0:54:51 And I look at, you know, I look at what I was going to say, who are we talking about
0:54:52 here?
0:54:57 Well, you know, at the end of the day, there’s a real, it’s not like Trump used to be a Democrat.
0:55:00 It’s not like he has an ideological, ideological true North.
0:55:02 Like, I mean, he’s going to make his money anyway.
0:55:07 So why not go with the people that really love him and deep MAGA, right?
0:55:12 I mean, these are people that actually are hurting that he needs to do more for.
0:55:13 And that can’t just be throw paper towels at them.
0:55:19 But, you know, when I look at, um, what we’re seeing from make America healthy again, and the,
0:55:24 uh, the food assistance snap, you know, I see, okay, we’re going to nudge, we’re going
0:55:30 to allow, um, certain States to, uh, not give those benefits for like, you know, soda and
0:55:31 for junk food.
0:55:31 Okay.
0:55:32 I’m fine with that.
0:55:36 I mean, we, I’d love to bring down our type two diabetes in this country and obesity, but
0:55:39 they’re also reducing the benefits.
0:55:44 They were also taking away what the Biden administration did to expand them.
0:55:44 That’s crazy.
0:55:47 Like you can’t hurt the poor people in this environment.
0:55:49 You got to help the poor people.
0:55:56 And so I think because Trump, I mean, Trump has gotten it right for the majority of the
0:55:59 country on the border and illegal immigration.
0:56:04 And he’s gotten it right for the majority of the country and on identity politics and anti-woke
0:56:13 ism, but he is failing most of the country on redistribution to the average American, to the
0:56:14 people like my family growing up.
0:56:16 He’s not helping those people economically.
0:56:22 And, and if he got the trifecta, then he would actually have a shot in the midterms.
0:56:27 Absent that, you probably expect the Democrats come back and take the house.
0:56:30 I think you are calling on his better angels.
0:56:34 I’m convinced that those first two are nothing but weapons of mass distraction from his ultimate
0:56:37 goal, which is to continue to enrich the 1%.
0:56:41 That that’s who he sees at the end of the day as his core constituency.
0:56:44 And that our tariffs don’t help them.
0:56:47 Well, they really don’t.
0:56:49 They hate him.
0:56:52 I mean, you know, you talk to like Steve Schwartzman, right?
0:56:54 And, you know, ask him what he doesn’t like about Trump.
0:56:58 And the number one thing he’ll tell you is I hate his trade policy.
0:57:00 And that was, that was months ago.
0:57:01 That was before the election.
0:57:04 Now, oh my God, these people, their, their hair’s on fire.
0:57:05 Right.
0:57:11 In my sense is tariffs are just blanket, are just blanket stupid and hurt everyone.
0:57:16 They especially hurt the poor because who spend a disproportionate amount of their money on
0:57:17 discretionary items.
0:57:22 That, sure, the wealthy will take a hit to their stock market portfolio.
0:57:27 But at the end of the day, I think the Republican Party and Trump’s genius is an ability to convince
0:57:33 the lower 99 that he’s serving their interests because at some point they might be in the top
0:57:33 one.
0:57:39 But if I upload my tax returns into ChatGPT and say, under the proposed Trump tax plan,
0:57:40 what happens to me?
0:57:44 And the answer is, you know, champagne and cocaine.
0:57:48 Things only get better for me based on his proposed tax policy.
0:57:49 I think tariffs hurt everyone.
0:57:49 It’s a fair point.
0:57:52 But they hurt poor people a lot more.
0:57:53 That’s just blanket stupid.
0:57:57 I wouldn’t argue that’s any sort of class warfare one side against the other.
0:57:59 Well, I guess I take your point, Scott.
0:58:03 And again, given that that’s why I’m saying in order to deal with that, you’ve got to do a
0:58:04 redistribution.
0:58:11 I do I do think that long term tariffs also have the capacity to as for the most powerful
0:58:15 country in the world to redirect investment in capital into the United States.
0:58:18 And I do think that there are blanket tariffs like this.
0:58:19 That never works.
0:58:21 When has no, no, no, no, no.
0:58:27 I’m assuming that you use them to actually negotiate and force weaker countries to do deals.
0:58:32 But we haven’t we, my understanding is since 2009, we’ve put in place more thoughtful individual
0:58:37 tariffs that are asymmetrically advantaged to us than any other nation, three times more
0:58:41 than Germany, five times more than France that we’ve been doing exactly what you’re talking
0:58:41 about.
0:58:45 Brazil gets tariffed 82 percent on their sugar.
0:58:47 Our sugar gets tariffed 12 percent.
0:58:52 Japan pays a 25 percent tariffs to put deliver trucks into us.
0:58:53 They charge us zero percent.
0:58:57 And we’re mostly I mean, there are there are counter examples to that, of course.
0:58:59 but also, you know, and that’s why we get so.
0:59:00 We’re not the victim here.
0:59:01 We’re the oppressed.
0:59:01 No, no, no.
0:59:02 We’re clearly not the victim.
0:59:07 And services, we run massive surpluses and our economy is tilted towards services.
0:59:11 And why would we want to go back to manufacturing given where the global economy is heading?
0:59:11 We don’t want to make Nikes.
0:59:12 We want to wear them, right?
0:59:13 What Dave Chappelle said.
0:59:14 Absolutely.
0:59:21 But my point here is that I don’t see Trump as necessarily needing to support the top one
0:59:21 percent.
0:59:26 I see Trump supporting himself and his family, you know, and a small number of donors.
0:59:27 That’s a handful of people.
0:59:29 He’s very transactional for that.
0:59:31 I get that.
0:59:35 But like, you know, if you want to go after you want to close the border and take out illegal
0:59:39 immigrants, like the easiest way to do that that could build a lot of support is go after
0:59:42 the corporations that are actually like bringing in all these.
0:59:44 Just tax the employers.
0:59:45 Just tax the employers.
0:59:50 But again, he doesn’t want to go after the employers or the corporations or those nice people
0:59:54 who are, that’s always been the case with immigrant.
0:59:59 I could go from, I think illegal immigration is the most profitable part of immigration.
1:00:00 We’ve turned a blind eye.
1:00:00 It’s a real problem.
1:00:04 So it turns out that we are more kleptocratic than authoritarian.
1:00:12 And that is probably, I guess, ultimately better for the American civilians, but not by much.
1:00:15 OK, respond to my conspiracy theory here.
1:00:21 Trump sets up essentially a Swiss banking account where you can put money in and the person who
1:00:25 puts money in can call you and say, by the way, I’m about to make you the wealthiest man
1:00:26 in the world.
1:00:30 What do you think about withdrawing support from Ukraine?
1:00:32 By the way, I’m also going to make you the wealthiest man in the world.
1:00:37 Maybe do something to thrust potential trading partners into our arms.
1:00:45 My conspiracy theory, Xi, China, and Putin, Russia, have committed to buying massive amounts
1:00:53 of the Trump coin in exchange for him levying a set of decisions that see just massive political
1:00:58 and economic advantage to Russia and to China.
1:01:00 I would ask the following.
1:01:05 If Putin and Xi had been elected president and vice president, what would be different about
1:01:06 what’s going on right now?
1:01:11 Yeah, me no like the Trump coin.
1:01:19 I mean, that is that’s obviously yet one more completely opacity driven means for corruption
1:01:21 and enrichment of Trump and his wife.
1:01:24 And this that’s not where the country should be heading.
1:01:30 I mean, the country would look very different if it was run by Xi and by Russia.
1:01:38 I mean, first of all, we wouldn’t be announcing 100 and 24 percent tariffs against China.
1:01:39 Right.
1:01:45 So, I mean, I think that let’s let’s take the China piece out of your conspiracy right
1:01:45 away.
1:01:52 He’s done a lot more with the Russians, but I have you don’t need if you don’t need a conspiracy
1:01:55 theory to explain something, don’t use one.
1:01:55 It’s additive.
1:01:58 And, you know, it’s complicated.
1:02:00 It’s it’s a complicating factor.
1:02:04 There are a lot of reasons for Trump to be doing what he’s doing with Putin, irrespective
1:02:05 of that.
1:02:05 Right.
1:02:07 I mean, he doesn’t like the EU.
1:02:14 He wants the EU to go away because they are a strong, coordinated group with trade competency
1:02:17 that undermines his influence on the global states.
1:02:21 He wants to deal with a bunch of individual smaller, weaker countries much more than he
1:02:22 wants to deal with the EU.
1:02:25 And by the way, Putin agrees with that completely.
1:02:29 So also when he meets with the European leaders, it’s like Obama.
1:02:31 They are educated.
1:02:32 They’re a feat.
1:02:34 They don’t respect him.
1:02:35 They snigger behind his back.
1:02:37 He got the intelligence on those conversations.
1:02:39 He knows what they really say about him.
1:02:43 Putin actually, like MBS, kind of treats him just like one of the guys.
1:02:49 So, I mean, Trump actually does enjoy talking with Putin more than he does enjoy talking with
1:02:54 Macron or or or Schultz or Starmer.
1:02:58 And so I think that gets you a fair amount of the way.
1:03:12 And then the fact it is true that if you look at the Riyadh conversations that the Americans had with the Russians a couple of months ago, Russia sent a couple of cabinet ministers, but also sent a businessman who was said to be an advisor to Putin.
1:03:23 But he also happened to have bought, coincidentally, a really expensive apartment from Trump that he spent a lot in Florida.
1:03:23 Oh, God.
1:03:24 How did we get here?
1:03:25 Literally, how did we get here?
1:03:26 Right.
1:03:28 So, I mean, I do.
1:03:39 I do accept, Scott, that like with MBS, which is where Trump is again making the first trip, that if there is a deal made with Russia, the cash register will be open.
1:03:49 That unlike the Europeans who can’t deliver money directly to Trump and family, you know, the Gulfies can and the Russians can and they will.
1:03:53 But I don’t think China is any part of that deal remotely.
1:04:09 Isn’t that, don’t we just start circling the drain when you allow certain levels of corruption that the incentives are just for everyone to be corrupt, that if you decide not to buy Trump coin or send Trump money, you end up on the wrong side of the largest person, the strongest military in the world.
1:04:11 Isn’t this just, isn’t this just a downward spiral?
1:04:20 I really don’t like the fact that the United States is setting the example for kleptocracy.
1:04:38 I don’t like the fact that the wealthiest man in the world, who you are no fan of, is, you know, occupying a position of authority in the United States, in the White House, at the same time that he is running and owning those companies, however well or badly.
1:04:44 And I remember when he met with Modi during the state visit at Blair House.
1:04:46 So, you know, part of the White House.
1:04:46 Right.
1:04:48 And he’s asked.
1:04:54 Trump is then asked in a press conference by a member of the journal, the media said.
1:05:05 So when when Elon met with Modi, was that in his official capacity or was it in his private sector capacity to advance his business interests?
1:05:07 And Trump, God bless him, actually answered honestly.
1:05:09 He said, I don’t know.
1:05:12 I mean, how could he know?
1:05:12 Right.
1:05:15 I mean, I neither both.
1:05:16 What does it matter?
1:05:17 Right.
1:05:19 And I mean, so we we have this.
1:05:21 It’s a very serious problem.
1:05:32 Most powerful country in the world and the most wealthy person in the world is conducting business and government affairs simultaneously interlinkedly.
1:05:33 Like, that’s not OK.
1:05:50 And he’s going after Schumer saying he’s corrupt and has fraud and and has no has no has given no evidence at the same time that he’s actually his companies are benefiting from billions of dollars of direct contracts from Pentagon and NASA.
1:05:56 I mean, that is that’s clearly a conflict of interest that we should have no part of.
1:05:57 Yeah.
1:06:01 And calling Senator Kelly an astronaut and an outstanding patriot a traitor.
1:06:04 But anyways, you’re you’re an amazing father, Elon.
1:06:08 Ian, give me give me something to be hopeful for here.
1:06:10 What have you seen recently that gives you hope?
1:06:13 Um, I’ve started this.
1:06:27 So I think the markets do create a level of honesty in people that we don’t necessarily see on a day to day basis.
1:06:30 So the adult in the cabinet right now is the Dow and the Nasdaq, isn’t it?
1:06:32 I mean, basically.
1:06:32 Right.
1:06:38 I mean, Jamie Dimon is saying he sounds a lot differently this week than he did at Davos.
1:06:38 Right.
1:06:42 And I don’t I don’t think that is courage.
1:06:50 I think that is, you know, his deep, his deep strategic revealed interest being, you know, made public.
1:07:03 And if we could do more of that, I mean, there’s got to be pain, there’s got to be crisis, but there might just be enough economic incompetence in all of this crisis to start hearing a little bit more pushback.
1:07:05 And I think that would be a useful thing.
1:07:18 Look, I mean, the fact that Elon is really at at at odds with Trump Navarro on the most disruptive thing they’ve done so far is helpful, frankly.
1:07:20 The most disruptive thing being immigration?
1:07:22 What are you referring to?
1:07:23 No, on tariffs, on tariffs.
1:07:23 On tariffs.
1:07:23 Excuse me.
1:07:24 Thank you.
1:07:36 Ian Bremmer is the president and founder of Eurasia Group, the world’s leading political risk research and consulting firm, and GZero Media, a company dedicated to providing intelligent and engaging coverage of international affairs.
1:07:48 He is also the author of 11 books, including the New York Times bestsellers, Us Versus Them, The Failure of Globalism, and The Power of Crisis, How Three Threats and Our Response.
1:07:49 We’ll Change the World.
1:07:54 He joins us from his office in, is it Midtown or Flatiron?
1:07:55 What would you call that?
1:07:55 A nomad.
1:07:57 It’s called nomad, officially.
1:07:57 Nomad.
1:07:57 Very cool.
1:07:58 Very cool.
1:08:01 Ian, it is always good to hear from you.
1:08:03 And let’s be honest, you are a Canadian spy.
1:08:06 You joined the ranks of Andrew Ross Sorkin.
1:08:08 I believe you’re working for the Canadian government.
1:08:09 It’s okay.
1:08:11 You will soon again be our allies.
1:08:17 Everyone can see me and Canadian spy Ian Bremmer and Andrew Ross Sorkin.
1:08:20 We’re going to do our I Love Canada tour.
1:08:20 You’re in.
1:08:22 You’re committing right now, right?
1:08:22 I am.
1:08:23 I am committing to you.
1:08:23 You get to pick the first city.
1:08:24 Is it Montreal or Toronto?
1:08:26 No.
1:08:28 If it’s I Love Canada, you’ve got to start with Toronto, of course.
1:08:29 Toronto.
1:08:29 All right, brother.
1:08:30 It’s always good to see you.
1:08:31 Okay.
1:08:31 Be good, man.
1:08:32 Thanks, Ian.
1:08:49 Algebra of Happiness on our other podcast, Prof G Markets.
1:08:50 I don’t know if you’ve heard.
1:08:51 I have several podcasts.
1:08:52 That’s right.
1:08:59 Anyways, on Prof G Markets, Ed Elson and I interviewed Gary Stevenson, who is this economist who’s sort
1:09:04 of blown up on TikTok, who is what I call a class trader, and I say that in the most complimentary
1:09:09 way, and that is he’s calling bullshit on wealthy people and is promoting what I think
1:09:14 is a basic truth, and that is, despite what the 1% and the incumbents will tell you, the
1:09:18 middle class is an accident, and if you don’t reinvest in it constantly through a progressive
1:09:22 tax structure and subsidies for the middle class, it goes away, folks.
1:09:23 It’s an accident in history.
1:09:26 It started from 1945 to 1995, maybe.
1:09:29 It’s been eroding since then, and if you don’t reinvest in it,
1:09:30 it goes away.
1:09:36 And I love this guy, and I think he’s fearless and out there spreading, I don’t know, God’s
1:09:36 gospel.
1:09:43 But he said something that really struck me, and that is that young men, I asked him what
1:09:49 advice we give to young men, that essentially, unfortunately, the likelihood that you end up
1:09:52 wealthy is a function of how rich your parents are.
1:09:57 And I always say it’s a function of when and where you’re born, but he’s right.
1:10:00 It’s more a function of how wealthy your parents are.
1:10:04 You can be born in any nation, and if your parents are rich, you’re probably going to do
1:10:05 okay.
1:10:10 You still have as much agency in the U.S. as any country in the world.
1:10:15 The mobility has not gotten worse here, but it’s not gotten better, and that is 11% of
1:10:18 the people in the lowest quintile make it to the top quintile.
1:10:20 That hasn’t gone up or down.
1:10:27 But what has changed is that if you’re the 89% that don’t make it into the top quintile,
1:10:30 you’re reminded 210 times a day that you’re failing.
1:10:35 There’s this notion that anyone can get rich with crypto, or we all know someone really
1:10:42 talented that ended up at NVIDIA at the right time, or becomes an influencer and makes a shit
1:10:42 ton of money.
1:10:48 But the vast majority of people don’t get that lucky or are just not that remarkable.
1:10:51 And there’s tremendous shame.
1:10:59 In Alain de Bouton, the British philosopher said that the downside to a meritocracy is that,
1:11:04 or the belief that we live in a meritocracy, is that if you don’t make it, that it’s your
1:11:06 fault, that you screwed up.
1:11:11 And what Gary said really struck me that there’s real dignity, and young men should feel good
1:11:15 about, can they find a way to make a decent living, take care of themselves, take care of
1:11:16 their kids.
1:11:19 They don’t necessarily need to have a plane.
1:11:20 They don’t even need to be wealthy.
1:11:26 But if they can put a roof over their family’s head, provide a warm, loving environment for them,
1:11:28 that that is something to be really proud of.
1:11:33 And as I think about it, I think these algorithms have been trained to tell young people, specifically
1:11:36 young men, that if they aren’t partying in St.
1:11:40 Bart’s and on a private jet, that they have fucked up.
1:11:47 That in a meritocratic society, in an economy with all these magnificent seven superstar companies,
1:11:49 that you should be rich.
1:11:51 And if you’re not, it’s your fault.
1:11:56 And most of the time, all of the time, it’s not your fault.
1:12:00 That a lot of your success for wealthy people is not your fault.
1:12:06 But if you’re not one of those people that manages to get to the top quintile, that there’s
1:12:12 real dignity, there’s real pride, and there’s real reward in being someone trying to live a
1:12:15 virtuous life that takes care of themselves and takes care of their family.
1:12:20 That that should be, we need to restore this notion that that’s enough and that there’s
1:12:23 real honor in that.
1:12:29 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.
1:12:30 Our intern is Dan Shallon.
1:12:32 Drew Burroughs is our technical director.
1:12:35 Thank you for listening to the Prop G pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
1:12:40 We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn.
1:12:45 And please follow our Prop G Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday
1:12:46 and Thursday.
1:12:46 Thank you.
1:12:47 Thank you.

0:00:02 Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,
0:00:04 where we revisit past episodes
0:00:07 for the most potent and actionable science-based tools
0:00:09 for mental health, physical health, and performance.
0:00:12 I’m Andrew Huberman,
0:00:15 and I’m a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
0:00:16 at Stanford School of Medicine.
0:00:19 This podcast is separate from my teaching
0:00:20 and research roles at Stanford.
0:00:23 It is, however, part of my desire and effort
0:00:25 to bring zero cost to consumer information
0:00:27 about science and science-related tools
0:00:28 to the general public.
0:00:30 Today, I want to talk about something
0:00:32 that is vitally important
0:00:34 for not just athletic performance,
0:00:38 but for your entire life and indeed for your longevity,
0:00:39 and that’s muscle.
0:00:42 And one of the things that’s exquisite
0:00:45 and fantastic about the human brain
0:00:47 is that it can direct all sorts
0:00:48 of different kinds of movement,
0:00:50 different speeds of movement,
0:00:52 movement of different durations.
0:00:57 All of that is governed by the relationship
0:00:59 between the nervous system, neurons,
0:01:01 and their connections to muscle.
0:01:03 So today, as always,
0:01:06 we’re going to talk a little bit of mechanism.
0:01:09 I’m going to explain how neurons control muscle.
0:01:11 We will touch on some nutritional themes
0:01:13 and how that relates to muscle,
0:01:15 in particular, a specific amino acid
0:01:18 that if it’s available in your bloodstream frequently enough
0:01:20 and at sufficient levels,
0:01:24 can help you build and improve the quality of muscle.
0:01:27 We are also going to talk about recovery.
0:01:29 That’s when muscle grows.
0:01:31 That’s when muscle gets more flexible.
0:01:33 None of that actually happens during training.
0:01:35 It happens after training.
0:01:37 Most people, when they hear the word muscle,
0:01:39 they just think about strength.
0:01:41 But of course, muscles are involved
0:01:42 in everything that we do.
0:01:44 They are involved in speaking.
0:01:46 They are involved in sitting and standing up.
0:01:49 They’re involved in lifting objects, including ourselves.
0:01:52 They are absolutely essential
0:01:54 for maintaining how we breathe.
0:01:57 They’re absolutely essential for ambulation,
0:02:01 for moving, and for skills of any kind.
0:02:04 So when we think about muscle,
0:02:06 we don’t just want to think about muscle,
0:02:08 the meat that is muscle,
0:02:09 but what controls that muscle.
0:02:12 And no surprise, what controls muscle
0:02:14 is the nervous system.
0:02:16 The nervous system does that
0:02:18 through three main nodes of control.
0:02:21 Basically, we have upper motor neurons
0:02:22 in our motor cortex.
0:02:24 So those are in our skull.
0:02:26 And those are involved in deliberate movement.
0:02:28 Those upper motor neurons send signals
0:02:30 down to my spinal cord,
0:02:32 where there are two categories of neurons.
0:02:35 One are the lower motor neurons.
0:02:38 And those lower motor neurons send little wires
0:02:41 that we call axons out to our muscles
0:02:43 and cause those muscles to contract.
0:02:45 They do that by dumping chemicals onto the muscle.
0:02:48 In fact, the chemical is acetylcholine.
0:02:51 Now there’s another category of neurons
0:02:53 in the spinal cord called central pattern generators
0:02:54 or CPGs.
0:02:56 And those are involved in rhythmic movements.
0:02:59 Anytime we’re walking or doing something
0:03:00 where we don’t have to think about it
0:03:02 to do it deliberately,
0:03:04 it’s just happening reflexively
0:03:06 that central pattern generators and motor neurons.
0:03:08 Anytime we’re doing something deliberately,
0:03:11 that the top-down control, as we call it,
0:03:13 from the upper motor neurons comes in
0:03:15 and takes control of that system.
0:03:16 So it’s really simple.
0:03:17 You’ve only got three ingredients.
0:03:18 You’ve got the upper motor neurons,
0:03:19 the lower motor neurons,
0:03:21 and for rhythmic movements that are reflexive,
0:03:23 you’ve also got the central pattern generators.
0:03:25 I’d like to take a quick break
0:03:27 and acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep.
0:03:29 Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers
0:03:31 with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity.
0:03:34 Now I’ve spoken before on this podcast
0:03:36 about the critical need for us to get adequate amounts
0:03:38 of quality sleep each and every night.
0:03:40 Now, one of the best ways to ensure a great night’s sleep
0:03:42 is to ensure that the temperature
0:03:44 of your sleeping environment is correct.
0:03:45 And that’s because in order to fall
0:03:47 and stay deeply asleep,
0:03:49 your body temperature actually has to drop
0:03:50 about one to three degrees.
0:03:52 And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized,
0:03:55 your body temperature actually has to increase
0:03:56 by about one to three degrees.
0:03:59 Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature
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0:04:02 according to your unique needs.
0:04:04 Now, I find that extremely useful
0:04:05 because I like to make the bed really cool
0:04:07 at the beginning of the night,
0:04:09 even colder in the middle of the night,
0:04:10 and warm as I wake up.
0:04:12 That’s what gives me the most slow wave sleep
0:04:14 and rapid eye movement sleep.
0:04:16 And I know that because Eight Sleep has a great sleep tracker
0:04:18 that tells me how well I’ve slept
0:04:20 and the types of sleep that I’m getting throughout the night.
0:04:22 Their latest model, the Pod 4 Ultra,
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0:04:29 in order to improve your airflow and stop you from snoring.
0:04:30 If you decide to try Eight Sleep,
0:04:32 you have 30 days to try it at home
0:04:34 and you can return it if you don’t like it.
0:04:36 No questions asked, but I’m sure that you’ll love it.
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0:04:49 Again, that’s eightsleep.com slash Huberman
0:04:52 to save up to $350 off your Pod 4 Ultra.
0:04:55 Today’s episode is also brought to us by Element.
0:04:57 Element is an electrolyte drink
0:04:59 that has everything you need, but nothing you don’t.
0:05:01 That means the electrolytes,
0:05:02 sodium, magnesium, and potassium,
0:05:05 all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.
0:05:06 Proper hydration is critical
0:05:08 for optimal brain and body function.
0:05:10 Even a slight degree of dehydration
0:05:12 can diminish cognitive and physical performance.
0:05:15 It’s also important that you get adequate electrolytes.
0:05:17 The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium,
0:05:19 are vital for the functioning
0:05:20 of all the cells in your body,
0:05:22 especially your neurons or your nerve cells.
0:05:24 Drinking Element dissolved in water
0:05:26 makes it extremely easy to ensure
0:05:27 that you’re getting adequate hydration
0:05:29 and adequate electrolytes.
0:05:31 To make sure that I’m getting proper amounts
0:05:32 of hydration and electrolytes,
0:05:34 I dissolve one packet of Element
0:05:36 in about 16 to 32 ounces of water
0:05:37 when I wake up in the morning
0:05:39 and I drink that basically first thing in the morning.
0:05:41 I also drink Element dissolved in water
0:05:44 during any kind of physical exercise that I’m doing.
0:05:45 They have a bunch of different
0:05:46 great tasting flavors of Element.
0:05:48 They have watermelon, citrus, et cetera.
0:05:50 Frankly, I love them all.
0:05:51 If you’d like to try Element,
0:05:54 you can go to drinkelement.com slash Huberman
0:05:56 to claim an Element sample pack
0:05:58 with the purchase of any Element drink mix.
0:06:01 Again, that’s drinkelement.com slash Huberman
0:06:02 to claim a free sample pack.
0:06:04 I’d now like to shift our attention
0:06:08 to how to use specific aspects of muscular contraction
0:06:11 to improve muscle hypertrophy, muscle growth,
0:06:14 as well as improving muscle strength.
0:06:16 There are a lot of reasons to want to get stronger.
0:06:20 And I should just mention that it’s not always the case
0:06:23 that getting stronger involves muscles getting bigger.
0:06:25 There are ways for muscles to get stronger
0:06:26 without getting bigger.
0:06:30 However, increasing the size of a muscle
0:06:33 almost inevitably increases the strength of that muscle,
0:06:35 at least to some degree.
0:06:38 Reasons why most everyone should want
0:06:39 to get their muscles stronger
0:06:43 is that muscles are generally getting progressively weaker
0:06:44 across the lifespan.
0:06:46 So when I say getting stronger,
0:06:48 it’s not necessarily about being able to move
0:06:51 increasing amounts of weight in the gym,
0:06:56 but rather to offset some of the normal decline
0:07:00 in strength and posture and the ability to generate
0:07:03 a large range of movement safely that occurs as we age.
0:07:05 So there’s an important principle of muscle physiology
0:07:08 called the Henneman size principle.
0:07:11 And the Henneman size principle essentially says
0:07:15 that we recruit what are called motor units.
0:07:19 Motor units are just the connections between nerve and muscle
0:07:26 in a pattern that staircases from low threshold to high threshold.
0:07:30 What this means is when you pick up something that is light,
0:07:34 you’re going to use the minimum amount of nerve to muscle energy
0:07:35 in order to move that thing.
0:07:38 Likewise, when you pick up an object that’s heavy,
0:07:43 you’re going to use the minimum amount of nerve to muscle connectivity
0:07:46 and energy in order to move that object.
0:07:49 So it’s basically a conservation of energy principle.
0:07:54 Now, if you continue to exert effort of movement,
0:07:58 what will happen is you will tend to recruit more
0:08:00 and more motor units with time.
0:08:03 As you recruit more and more of these motor units,
0:08:06 these connections between these lower motor neurons and muscle,
0:08:10 that’s when you start to get changes in the muscle.
0:08:14 That’s when you open the gate for the potential
0:08:17 for the muscles to get stronger and to get larger.
0:08:22 And so the way this process works has been badly misunderstood
0:08:25 in the kind of online literature of weight training
0:08:27 and bodybuilding and even in sports physiology.
0:08:33 The Henneman size principle is kind of a foundational principle
0:08:34 within muscle physiology,
0:08:38 but many people have come to interpret it by saying
0:08:42 that the way to recruit high threshold motor units,
0:08:43 the ones that are hard to get to,
0:08:45 is to just use heavy weights.
0:08:48 And that’s actually not the case.
0:08:49 As we’ll talk about,
0:08:53 the research supports that weights in a very large range
0:08:57 of sort of a percentage of your maximum
0:09:00 anywhere from 30 to 80%.
0:09:02 So weights that are not very light,
0:09:04 but are moderately light,
0:09:05 too heavy,
0:09:09 can cause changes in the connections between nerve and muscle
0:09:12 that lead to muscle strength and muscle hypertrophy.
0:09:13 Put differently,
0:09:18 heavy weights can help build muscle and strength,
0:09:19 but they are not required.
0:09:23 What one has to do is adhere to a certain number of parameters,
0:09:26 just a couple of key variables that I’ll spell out for you.
0:09:27 And if you do that,
0:09:31 you can greatly increase muscle hypertrophy,
0:09:32 muscle size,
0:09:36 and or muscle strength if that’s what you want to do.
0:09:39 And you don’t necessarily have to use heavy weights in order to do that.
0:09:40 Now,
0:09:44 I’m sure the power lifters and the people that like to move heavy weights around
0:09:45 will say,
0:09:46 if you want to get strong,
0:09:48 you absolutely have to lift heavy weights.
0:09:51 And that might be true if you want to get very strong,
0:09:57 but for most people who are interested in supporting their muscular such that they offset
0:10:04 any age-related decline in strength or in increasing hypertrophy and strength to some degree,
0:10:08 there really isn’t a need to use the heaviest weights possible in order to build strength and muscle.
0:10:15 So there are three major stimuli for changing the way that muscle works and making muscles stronger,
0:10:16 larger,
0:10:17 or better in some way.
0:10:19 And those are stress,
0:10:20 tension,
0:10:22 and damage.
0:10:26 Those three things don’t necessarily all have to be present,
0:10:29 but stress of some kind has to exist.
0:10:32 So this is very reminiscent of neuroplasticity in the brain.
0:10:38 There is a good predictor of how well or how efficient you will be in building the strength
0:10:39 and,
0:10:41 or if you like the size of a given muscle.
0:10:46 And it has everything to do with those upper motor neurons that are involved in deliberate
0:10:47 control of muscle.
0:10:49 You can actually do this test right now.
0:10:55 You can just kind of march across your body mentally and see whether or not you can independently
0:10:58 contract any or all of your muscles,
0:11:02 because everything about muscle hypertrophy,
0:11:08 about stimulating muscle growth is about generating isolated contractions,
0:11:13 about challenging specific muscles in a very unnatural way.
0:11:15 Whereas with strength,
0:11:18 it’s about using musculature as a system,
0:11:19 moving weights,
0:11:20 moving resistance,
0:11:21 moving the body.
0:11:29 the specific goal of hypertrophy is to isolate specific nerve to muscle pathways so that you
0:11:34 stimulate the chemical and signaling transduction events in muscles so that those muscles respond by
0:11:35 getting larger.
0:11:42 So there’s a critical distinction in terms of getting stronger versus trying to get muscles to be larger,
0:11:43 hypertrophy per se.
0:11:47 And it has to do with how much you isolate those muscles.
0:11:51 So you can nest this as a principle for yourself,
0:11:53 which is if you want to get stronger,
0:11:59 it’s really about moving progressively greater loads or increasing the amount of weight that you move.
0:12:03 Whereas if you’re specifically interested in generating hypertrophy,
0:12:06 it’s all about trying to generate those really hard,
0:12:10 almost painful localized contractions of muscle.
0:12:14 If ever there was an area of practical science that was very confused,
0:12:15 very controversial,
0:12:18 and almost combative at times,
0:12:21 it would be this issue of how best to train.
0:12:27 I suppose the only thing that’s even more barbed wire of a conversation than that is how best to eat for health.
0:12:31 Those seem to be the two most common areas of online battle.
0:12:40 What’s very clear now from all the literature is that once you know roughly your one repetition maximum,
0:12:47 the maximum amount of weight that you can perform an exercise with for one repetition in good form,
0:12:49 full range of motion,
0:12:57 that it’s very clear that moving weights or using bands or using body weight,
0:12:58 for instance,
0:13:02 in the 30 to 80% of one rep maximum,
0:13:07 that is going to be the most beneficial range in terms of muscle hypertrophy and strength.
0:13:08 So muscle growth and strength.
0:13:15 So let’s say you’re somebody who’s been doing some resistance exercise kind of on and off over the years,
0:13:20 and you decide you want to get serious about that for sake of sport or offsetting age-related declines in strength.
0:13:27 The range of sets to do in order to improve strength ranges anywhere from two,
0:13:28 believe it or not,
0:13:30 to 20 per week.
0:13:30 Again,
0:13:35 these are sets per week and they don’t necessarily all have to be performed in the same weight training session.
0:13:45 It appears that five sets per week in this 30% to 80% of the one repetition maximum range is what’s required just to maintain
0:13:45 your muscles.
0:13:46 So think about that.
0:13:48 If you’re somebody who’s kind of averse to resistance training,
0:13:52 you are going to lose muscle size and strength.
0:13:53 Your metabolism will drop.
0:13:54 Your posture will get worse.
0:13:59 Everything in the context of nerve to muscle connectivity will get worse over time,
0:14:10 unless you are generating five sets or more of this 30% to 80% of your one repetition maximum per week.
0:14:10 Okay?
0:14:14 So what this means is for the typical person who hasn’t done a lot of weight training,
0:14:17 you need to do at least five sets per muscle group.
0:14:19 Now that’s just to maintain.
0:14:24 And then there’s this huge range that goes all the way up to 15 and in some case 20 sets per week.
0:14:25 Now,
0:14:31 how many sets you perform is going to depend on the intensity of the work that you perform.
0:14:50 This is where it gets a little bit controversial, but I think nowadays most people agree that 10% of the sets of a given workout or 10% of workouts overall should be of the high intensity sort where one is actually working to muscular failure.
0:14:56 But the point being that most of your training, most of your sets should be not to failure.
0:15:10 And the reason for that is it allows you to do more volume of work so we can make this simple perform anywhere from five to 15 sets of resistance exercise per week.
0:15:12 And that’s per muscle.
0:15:17 And that’s in this 30 to 80% of what your one repetition maximum.
0:15:24 That seems to be the most scientifically supported way of offsetting any decline in muscle strength.
0:15:41 If you’re working in the kind of five set range and in increasing muscle strength, when you start to get up into the 10 and 15 set range, but it’s pretty clear that performing this five to 15 sets per week, whether or not it’s in one workout or whether it’s divided up across multiple workouts is really what’s going to be most beneficial.
0:15:46 And please do keep in mind Henneman’s size principle and the recruitment of motor units.
0:15:55 And remember, the better you are at contracting particular muscles and isolating those muscles, the fewer sets likely you need to do in order to get the desired effect.
0:15:58 I’d like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
0:16:03 AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.
0:16:08 I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.
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0:17:40 As I’ve highlighted before in this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production, and much more.
0:17:49 Again, that’s drinkag1.com slash Huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription.
0:17:51 What about people who have been training for a while?
0:18:03 If you’re somebody who’s been doing weight training for a while, the data point to the fact that more volume can be beneficial, even for muscles that you are very efficient at contracting.
0:18:15 Now, the curve on this, the graph on this, begins again at about five sets per week for maintaining a given muscle group, and extends all the way out to 25 or 30 sets per week.
0:18:32 However, there are individuals who, for whatever reason, can generate so much force, they’re so good at training muscles, that they can generate so much force in just four or six or eight sets, that doing this large volume of work is actually going to be counterproductive.
0:18:39 So everyone needs to figure out for themselves, first of all, how often you’re willing to do resistance exercise of any kind.
0:18:48 And then it does appear that somewhere between five and 15 sets per week is going to be what’s the thing that’s going to work for most people.
0:18:54 Now, this is based on a tremendous amount of work that was done by Andy Galpin and colleagues, Brad Schoenfeld and colleagues, Mike Roberts.
0:19:05 There’s a huge group of people out there doing exercise physiology and a small subset of them that are linking them back to real-world protocols that don’t just pertain to athletes.
0:19:06 So that’s mainly what I’m focusing on today.
0:19:08 And surely there will be exceptions.
0:19:21 Now, if you’re going to divide the sets across the week, you’re not going to do all 10 sets, for instance, for a given muscle group in one session, then, of course, it’s imperative that the muscles recover in between sessions.
0:19:24 You might ask, well, what about the speeds of movements?
0:19:30 This is actually turns out to be a really interesting data set for generating explosiveness and speed.
0:19:44 It’s very clear that learning to generate forces quickly and to move heavy or moderately heavy loads quickly is going to be beneficial because of the way that you train the motor neurons and, of course, changes in the muscle.
0:19:54 And so what this would involve is something like 60 to 75% of a one-repetition maximum, and then in a controlled way, moving that as quickly as one can throughout the entire set.
0:20:02 And certainly not going to failure, because as you approach failure, the inability to move the weight with good form, the weight inevitably slows down.
0:20:10 So as you’re probably starting to realize, you need to customize a resistance practice for your particular needs and goals.
0:20:11 So we’ve talked about a few principles.
0:20:19 The fact that you need to get sufficient volume, you need at least five sets to maintain, and you probably need about 10 sets per muscle group in order to improve muscle.
0:20:24 That moving weights of moderate to moderately heavy weight quickly is going to be best for explosiveness.
0:20:41 That isolating muscles and really contracting muscles hard, something that you can test by just when you’re outside the training session, seeing whether or not you can cramp the muscle hard, will really tell you your capacity to improve hypertrophy or to engage strength changes in that muscle.
0:20:50 That your ability to contract a muscle hard is inversely related to the number of sets that you should do in order to isolate and stimulate that muscle.
0:20:53 Now, how long to recover between sets?
0:20:55 This is a question for the testosterone protocol.
0:21:01 Duncan French and colleagues found that it was about two minutes, keeping that really on the clock, two minutes, not longer.
0:21:11 For hypertrophy and for strength gains, it does seem that resting anywhere from two minutes or even three or four or even five or six minutes can be beneficial.
0:21:12 So how do we know if we’ve recovered?
0:21:14 How can we test recovery?
0:21:16 And this is not just recovery from resistance training.
0:21:19 This is recovery from running, recovery from swimming.
0:21:23 Up until now, I’ve been talking about resistance training more or less in a vacuum.
0:21:30 I haven’t even touched on the fact that many people are running and they’re doing resistance training or they’re swimming and they’re doing resistance training.
0:21:43 Well, you can assess systemic recovery, meaning your nervous system and your nervous system’s ability to generate force, both distributed and isolated through three main tests.
0:21:51 And fortunately, these tests are very simple and two of them are essentially zero cost, require no equipment.
0:22:01 HRV, heart rate variability, has made its way finally into the forefront of exercise physiology and even into the popular discussion.
0:22:10 I’ve talked about HRV before, how when we exhale, our heart rate slows down because of the way that our diaphragm is connected to our heart and to our brain and the way our brain is connected to our heart.
0:22:13 When we inhale, our heart rate speeds up.
0:22:15 And that is the basis of heart rate variability.
0:22:21 Heart rate variability is good, but heart rate variability is difficult for a lot of people to measure.
0:22:30 There are two measures, however, whether or not you recovered that you can use first thing in the morning when you wake up in order to assess how well recovered you are.
0:22:34 And therefore, whether or not you should train your whole system at all that day.
0:22:36 The first one is grip strength.
0:22:55 Grip strength, the ability to generate force at the level of squeezing the fist or, you know, squeezing down on something might seem like kind of a trivial way to assess recovery, but it’s not because it relates to your ability to use your upper motor neurons to control your lower motor neurons and to generate isolated force.
0:22:58 And so that’s really what you’re assessing when you do that.
0:23:02 Some people will use, you know, one of these grip tools.
0:23:09 If I’ve been working really hard, not sleeping very well, or I’ve been training a lot, any one or combination of those things, my grip suffers.
0:23:15 I can’t actually squeeze that thing down as much as I can, but on a good day, I can squeeze this thing so that I eliminate the hole in the donut, so to speak.
0:23:20 You can also take a floor scale and squeeze the scale and see how much force you can generate.
0:23:25 I would do that as a baseline to establish what you can do when you’re well rested.
0:23:30 And then if you do that in the morning, you can see whether or not you’re able to generate the same amount of force.
0:23:31 A lot of this is very subjective.
0:23:35 With the scale, you’re really trying to assess whether or not you can generate the same amount of force.
0:23:40 If you start seeing a 10% or 20% certainly reduction in that, that’s concerning.
0:23:46 It means that your system, that your nervous system as a whole, it’s not necessarily fatigued.
0:23:53 It’s that the pathways from nerve to muscle are still in the process of rewiring themselves in order to generate force.
0:23:56 And you might think, well, I trained one muscle group one day.
0:23:58 Why am I having a hard time doing this for a completely different muscle group?
0:24:00 It doesn’t make any sense.
0:24:12 But there’s something about the upper motor neuron to lower motor neuron pathway generally that allows you to use something like grip strength as a kind of a thermometer, if you will, of your ability to recover.
0:24:15 So look for your ability to generate force in grip when you first wake up.
0:24:20 It’s not going to be as good as it is at 3 p.m. after a cup of coffee and a couple meals.
0:24:23 But that the point isn’t performance overall.
0:24:27 The point is to assess whether or not you’re getting better, worse, or the same from day to day.
0:24:32 I’d like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
0:24:37 Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.
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0:25:21 Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption.
0:25:31 I’d been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification.
0:25:35 And I should say, by taking a second function test, that approach worked.
0:25:37 Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important.
0:25:43 There’s so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test.
0:25:46 The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated.
0:25:51 In contrast, I’ve been super impressed by Function’s simplicity and at the level of cost.
0:25:52 It is very affordable.
0:25:58 As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I’m thrilled that they’re sponsoring the podcast.
0:26:02 If you’d like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com slash Huberman.
0:26:09 Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they’re offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners.
0:26:15 Again, that’s functionhealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to Function.
0:26:25 The other one that’s really terrific and that Andy Galpin’s group is using, and I’m delighted about this because it relates to something that my lab is very excited about as well, is carbon dioxide tolerance.
0:26:31 So this is a really interesting tool that endurance athletes, strength athletes, I think can all benefit from.
0:26:34 So here’s how you do the carbon dioxide tolerance test.
0:26:39 You wake up in the morning and what you’re going to do is you’re going to inhale through your nose as deeply as you can.
0:26:46 You can do this lying down, you know, sitting, whatever, inhale through your nose, and then exhale all the way.
0:26:48 So that’s one.
0:26:50 You’re going to repeat that four times.
0:27:04 Then you take a fifth inhale as deep as you can through your nose, fill your lungs as much as you can, and if you can try and expand, make your stomach go out while you do that, that means that your diaphragm is really engaged.
0:27:15 So you’re inhaling as much as you can then hit the timer, and your goal is to release that air as slowly as possible through your mouth.
0:27:30 So it looks like you have a tiny, tiny little straw in your mouth and you’re letting it go as slowly as you possibly can measure what we call the carbon dioxide blow off time or discard rate.
0:27:38 I know you can all sit with lungs empty after you eliminate all that air, but don’t lie to yourself.
0:27:42 Don’t stop the timer when you’ve been sitting with your lungs empty for a while.
0:27:47 Stop the timer when you are finally no longer able to exhale any more air.
0:27:56 Your carbon dioxide discard rate will be somewhere between one second and presumably two minutes.
0:28:00 Two minutes would be a heroic carbon dioxide discard time.
0:28:02 30 seconds would be more typical.
0:28:04 20 seconds would be fast.
0:28:12 If your carbon dioxide discard time is 20 or 25 seconds or less,
0:28:18 you are not necessarily recovered from your previous day’s activities.
0:28:25 So if your carbon dioxide discard time is somewhere between about 30 seconds and 60 seconds,
0:28:34 you are in what we would call kind of the green zone where you are in a position to do more physical work.
0:28:46 And if your carbon dioxide discard time is somewhere between 65 and 120 seconds, well, then you have almost certainly recovered your nervous system.
0:28:51 I’m not talking about the individual muscles, but your nervous system is prepared to do more work.
0:28:55 I’m really keen on this tool because everybody has different recovery abilities.
0:28:58 I realize people have varying levels of stress and demand in their life.
0:29:04 It’s just impossible to prescribe an entire protocol that says, okay, yes, you should train today.
0:29:05 And this is exactly what you should do.
0:29:06 No, you shouldn’t.
0:29:10 Use carbon dioxide discard rate because A, it’s valuable.
0:29:10 It’s informative.
0:29:14 B, it’s zero cost.
0:29:17 And C, it’s something that you can track objectively over time.
0:29:18 And that’s really the key.
0:29:20 So recovery is a complex process.
0:29:25 It’s got a lot of things, but the CO2 tolerance test should be a valuable tool.
0:29:30 Now, another tool for recovery that people are very excited about is the use of cold and the ice bath.
0:29:32 And this is important.
0:29:34 Yes, it will reduce inflammation.
0:29:38 Yes, it will reduce the amount of delayed onset muscle soreness.
0:29:42 But it does seem to interfere with some of the things like mTOR pathways,
0:29:51 the mammalian target of rapamycin pathway and other pathways related to inflammation that promote muscle repair, remember, and muscle growth.
0:29:59 Remember, stress, tension, and damage are the stimulus for nerve to muscle connections to change and for muscles to get bigger, stronger, and better.
0:30:07 And so if you’re getting into the ice bath after doing resistance training, you are likely short-circuiting the improvements that you’re trying to create.
0:30:10 The other thing are non-steroid anti-inflammatory drugs.
0:30:11 You know their trade names.
0:30:13 These are painkillers that many people take.
0:30:23 Those, as I’ve mentioned in a previous episode, seem to prevent a lot of the gains, the improvements in endurance, strength, and size that people are specifically using exercise for.
0:30:33 So be cautious about your use of non-steroid anti-inflammatory drugs, especially within the four hours preceding or the four hours following exercise.
0:30:44 Let’s talk about some of the things that seem to work across the board to improve strength, improve hypertrophy, and improve nerve-to-muscle communication and performance.
0:30:53 The first thing that’s absolutely key for nerve-to-muscle communication and physical performance of any kind might not sound that exciting to you, but it is very exciting.
0:30:56 And that’s salt.
0:31:08 Nerves, nerve cells, neurons communicate with each other and communicate with muscle by electricity, but that electricity is generated by particular ions moving into and out of the neuron.
0:31:16 And the rushing in of a particular ion, sodium, salt, is what allows nerve cells to fire.
0:31:24 If you don’t have enough salt in your system, your neurons and your brain and your nerve-to-muscle communication will be terrible.
0:31:27 If you have sufficient salt, it will be excellent.
0:31:33 How much salt will depend on how much water you’re drinking, how much caffeine you’re drinking, and how much food you’re ingesting.
0:31:37 So, and whether or not you’re taking any diuretics, how hot it is, et cetera, how much you’re sweating.
0:31:42 So you want to make sure that you have enough salt, potassium, and magnesium in your system if you want to perform well.
0:31:51 The other thing that’s been shown over and over again in numerous well-controlled studies to improve muscle performance is creatine.
0:31:53 How much creatine?
0:32:02 Well, I asked the experts and they tell me that for somebody who’s about 180 pounds, five grams a day should be sufficient or so.
0:32:06 Creatine seems to have a performance-enhancing effect.
0:32:14 There are 66 studies, 66, showing that power output is greatly increased, anywhere from 12 to 20%.
0:32:19 And this is sprinting and running and jumping as well as weightlifting by creatine.
0:32:29 The ability to hydrate your body is improved by creatine because of the way that it brings more water into cells of various kinds.
0:32:31 It reduces fatigue.
0:32:43 When it comes to supporting muscle, it does seem that ingesting 700 to 3,000 milligrams of the essential amino acid leucine with each meal is important.
0:32:45 Now, that does not necessarily mean from supplements.
0:32:55 In fact, most people recommend that you get your protein, you get your amino acids, including your essential amino acids, and your leucine from whole foods.
0:32:59 high-quality proteins are high-density proteins.
0:33:00 What do you mean by that?
0:33:09 Well, it is true that a lot of sources of protein are found in things like beans and nuts and things like that, that all the essential amino acids can be found there.
0:33:29 But per unit calorie, if it’s in your practice, if it’s in your ethics to ingest animal proteins, it’s true that, for instance, 200 calories of steak or chicken or fish or eggs will have a higher density of essential amino acids than the equivalent amount of calories from nuts or plants.
0:33:36 So I’m not, for the vegans and vegetarians, I’m certainly not saying there’s no way that you can support muscle growth.
0:33:36 You absolutely can.
0:33:46 I encourage you to think about this protein density issue and whether or not you’re getting sufficient essential amino acids, especially leucine.
0:34:05 But I think the simple takeaway from the literature that I was able to extract, eating two to four times a day, making sure you’re getting sufficient amino acids in a way that’s compatible with your ethics and with your nutritional regimen is going to support muscle repair, muscle growth, strength improvements, et cetera, just fine.
0:34:08 Last but not least, I want to thank you for your time and attention today.
0:34:11 And as always, thank you for your interest in science.

0:00:02 A lot of people do this on dates, and it drives me crazy.
0:00:03 Look, watch this.
0:00:07 And I saw yesterday, you and my team did some matchmaking.
0:00:07 Yes!
0:00:11 Okay, so we had the very first date, and I pre-coached the gentleman,
0:00:13 and I was coaching the girls via an earpiece,
0:00:15 and I was shocked by these dates.
0:00:17 Please don’t do that.
0:00:20 This is why we’re having a baby crisis.
0:00:23 I got angry after this date.
0:00:24 Why?
0:00:27 I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter.
0:00:30 She was physically attracted to him, and I asked her,
0:00:31 would you like to go out with him again?
0:00:32 And she said to me,
0:00:33 Really?
0:00:33 Yeah, yeah.
0:00:36 And now we are missing opportunities for connection,
0:00:39 the thing that’s going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time.
0:00:44 Vanessa Van Edwards has helped over 400,000 students crack the code on human behavior.
0:00:49 Decoding universal body language and sharing science-backed secrets for better dates.
0:00:51 Smoother conversations and bigger career wins.
0:00:54 Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back.
0:00:57 The first place I want to start is, can we change who we are?
0:01:01 They’ve actually researched this, and every person on planet Earth has these five personality traits.
0:01:04 And they fall on a spectrum, high, medium, or low.
0:01:07 And they’re somewhere between 42 to 57% heritable.
0:01:09 For example, neuroticism, which is how you worry.
0:01:13 And high neurotics, like me, produce less serotonin more slowly.
0:01:15 Serotonin makes us feel calm.
0:01:18 And so, like, I am having far more negative experiences than the same person in the room,
0:01:19 and that’s genetic.
0:01:22 But there is 30 to 40% potential for change.
0:01:23 You want a better relationship?
0:01:24 You want a raise?
0:01:25 You want a promotion?
0:01:26 You want more friends?
0:01:28 And the good news is, anyone can learn these cues and techniques.
0:01:33 Such as decoding the seven universal micro-expressions we all do unconsciously.
0:01:34 How to spot a liar.
0:01:36 The number one mistake people make in a first impression.
0:01:38 And how to become a master communicator.
0:01:40 Can I teach them to you?
0:01:40 Please.
0:01:41 Let’s start with…
0:01:47 I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the back end of Spotify and Apple
0:01:52 and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven’t yet hit the
0:01:55 follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you’re listening to this.
0:01:56 I would like to make a deal with you.
0:02:01 If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from
0:02:04 now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better.
0:02:07 I can’t tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button.
0:02:11 The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you
0:02:13 want to see and continue to doing this thing we love.
0:02:16 If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you’re listening
0:02:18 to this, that would mean the world to me.
0:02:20 That is the only favor I will ever ask you.
0:02:21 Thank you so much for your time.
0:02:22 Back to this episode.
0:02:28 Vanessa Van Edwards, welcome back.
0:02:29 Thank you for having me back.
0:02:30 How have you been?
0:02:32 Oh my gosh, your folks are so kind.
0:02:40 Can I just say, since the last interview, the incredible people have reached out and just
0:02:41 been supportive and kind.
0:02:44 They ask amazing questions and so I’m just so grateful.
0:02:44 So I’ve been really good.
0:02:48 Just in case anybody doesn’t know who you are and what you do, you’re going to have to take
0:02:48 me back.
0:02:50 What is it you do and who are you?
0:02:55 I’m a recovering awkward person and I help other awkward folks learn how to communicate.
0:02:59 I have books and courses and I love helping very, very smart people share their ideas
0:03:00 better.
0:03:02 Communicate online and in person?
0:03:02 Oh, all of it.
0:03:03 All of it.
0:03:06 Slack, text, email, online, in person, on the phone.
0:03:08 We can talk about vocal power, video power.
0:03:10 You are communicating all the time, even if you don’t realize it.
0:03:12 And that’s the hidden opportunity.
0:03:14 How important is it?
0:03:19 Like how pivotal is it and can it be for someone’s life if they master the skill of communication,
0:03:22 first impressions and all the things that you educate us on so articulately?
0:03:25 It will get you everything you want.
0:03:26 You want a better relationship?
0:03:28 You want a soulmate?
0:03:29 You want a raise?
0:03:29 You want a promotion?
0:03:31 You want a business?
0:03:32 You want more friends?
0:03:33 You want a support system?
0:03:34 It will even get you longevity.
0:03:35 That’s how strong I feel about it.
0:03:40 If you have incredible relationships and you’re able to communicate your ideas so people like
0:03:42 you and they listen, your life changes.
0:03:46 But is it not genetic?
0:03:48 You know, like, are we set in our ways?
0:03:51 Look, there are certain people born out the womb charismatic.
0:03:54 Great hand gestures, great eyebrows right out the womb.
0:03:56 There are those very unique people.
0:03:59 But most of us learn charisma.
0:04:02 Most really, really charismatic leaders, they’ve learned,
0:04:05 Ah, this nonverbal cue gets people to smile.
0:04:08 Oh, with this vocal power, people pay attention and lean in.
0:04:11 And they’ve accidentally or purposefully learned how to hone their charisma.
0:04:14 And the good news is, I think anyone can learn it.
0:04:15 Anyone, no matter how awkward you are.
0:04:17 Believe me, I’m proof you can learn it.
0:04:18 You’re proof.
0:04:19 I’m a recovering awkward person.
0:04:21 I was so awkward.
0:04:23 I had a really hard time communicating with people.
0:04:24 I was not well liked.
0:04:26 I was, had very few friends.
0:04:28 If I can learn it, anyone can learn it.
0:04:29 I promise.
0:04:32 It’s almost impossible to believe that you were an awkward person.
0:04:33 I promise.
0:04:36 You know, also, awkwardness dresses up in different ways, right?
0:04:38 So I think most people, when they think of awkward,
0:04:42 they think of that stereotypical, robotic, unreadable, saying weird things.
0:04:44 That was not my brand of awkward.
0:04:47 My brand of awkward was trying to be impressive when I clearly wasn’t,
0:04:49 telling funny stories that were not funny,
0:04:51 talking too much.
0:04:52 Shocker.
0:04:53 Right?
0:04:56 It was saying the wrong things and over-communicating.
0:05:00 I also had that Labrador energy, you know, like that golden retriever energy,
0:05:02 where I’m like, do you know what I mean?
0:05:03 She just stuck her tongue out.
0:05:05 Yeah, I’m like super into people.
0:05:08 And that was awkward because people would be like, back up.
0:05:09 It’s okay.
0:05:12 And that was awkward because it created, I was so over-eager.
0:05:16 I so wanted people to like me that I feel like, you know,
0:05:18 I was leaning into everyone all the time.
0:05:21 And that created awkwardness for people because I was trying so hard.
0:05:24 So when you see many people right into the show or speak to me in the street,
0:05:29 and it’s so surprising that the thing, even if they live in these, you know, densely populated cities,
0:05:32 the sort of most pressing issue on their mind is, I don’t know how to make a friend.
0:05:37 And it’s funny because sometimes they sell it to me in a gym and it’s like, there’s 300 people surrounding us right now.
0:05:40 And not knowing how to walk up and say hello or introduce yourself.
0:05:44 Yeah, but a lot of us, I think, have casual friends.
0:05:49 We have like, you know, acquaintances, people, they know what we do, but then we don’t know how to level up.
0:05:53 Like, I believe that everyone should have core friendship values.
0:05:58 Mine are, for me personally, respect, meaning they don’t show up late.
0:06:00 They respect my time.
0:06:01 Self-honesty.
0:06:04 I actually like honesty, but I prefer self-honesty in a friend.
0:06:10 And I had friendships that didn’t work for a long time because they lied to themselves about things.
0:06:13 And I am not a liar, so I would be like, but he’s terrible to you.
0:06:14 And they’d be like, what?
0:06:15 No, he’s not.
0:06:16 Self-deception.
0:06:17 Doesn’t work for me.
0:06:19 If that has a core friendship value, you cannot do it.
0:06:20 Do you know what I’m saying?
0:06:21 Self-honesty.
0:06:22 Self-honesty.
0:06:23 Specifically.
0:06:25 And the last one is depth.
0:06:28 So once I started going deep, I realized I need that.
0:06:30 I cannot have a surface-level friend.
0:06:34 Like, I want to know how is your marriage, but how is it really?
0:06:36 Like, I want to go really, really deep.
0:06:39 And if I sense that there’s any kind of hesitation there, we’re not going to be friends.
0:06:43 So I think it’s important to think about, yes, hobbies, great.
0:06:45 Like, you want to do activities with these people.
0:06:48 But what are your core friendship values?
0:06:51 And how do I figure out what my core friendship values are?
0:06:51 Okay.
0:06:56 Think about all the things that drive you crazy about your current friends.
0:06:57 Okay?
0:06:58 Okay?
0:06:59 Yeah.
0:07:02 Think about friendships that didn’t work out, that had a lot of potential.
0:07:05 But like, you just, they fizzled.
0:07:07 You never quite had a good time with them.
0:07:11 Or friends that you get together with them all the time, but they still, they still wouldn’t
0:07:12 be a best friend.
0:07:12 Why?
0:07:14 Okay.
0:07:14 Yeah.
0:07:16 Like, what is blocking?
0:07:17 What is missing there?
0:07:19 And it could be on either side, right?
0:07:20 It’s like, not all just up to them.
0:07:21 So think about what drives you crazy.
0:07:24 And then, like, what makes you feel healed?
0:07:25 What makes you feel good?
0:07:25 What makes you feel calm?
0:07:26 What makes you feel like yourself?
0:07:29 Personal responsibility is a big one for me, I think.
0:07:30 Ooh, give me an example of that.
0:07:35 Just like, it’s a deep belief that you are in control of your life and you are in control
0:07:36 of your outcomes.
0:07:39 Because then it’s like almost the antithesis of victimhood.
0:07:39 Totally.
0:07:43 And you don’t want to be dealing with a friend who’s chronically engaged in, like, victimhood,
0:07:44 you know?
0:07:44 So that was the first one.
0:07:45 You want heroes.
0:07:51 And how many people have you taught this skill of better communication and better connections
0:07:53 to in the last decade?
0:07:54 Oh my gosh.
0:07:56 Well, at least 400,000 students who I can count.
0:07:57 But millions more.
0:07:58 Millions more.
0:08:00 400,000 students.
0:08:00 Yes.
0:08:04 And it’s actually probably way more than that, but that’s just what we can count.
0:08:06 And what is, like, the essence of what they’re trying to get?
0:08:09 Because obviously a skill is a path to something that they want.
0:08:11 What is the thing that they want?
0:08:13 They want to be master communicators.
0:08:14 Why?
0:08:16 They want to be able to ask for what they want and get it.
0:08:21 If you are a master communicator, no matter what you want, again, if it’s a partner or
0:08:24 a business deal, you can get it if you can communicate well.
0:08:25 Can you make me a master communicator?
0:08:26 For sure.
0:08:27 Let’s do it then.
0:08:28 Let’s do it.
0:08:31 The first place I want to start is with first impressions.
0:08:31 Yeah.
0:08:34 And how one can make a great first impression.
0:08:37 Because first impressions are like, I make them all day, every day.
0:08:42 When I meet people on the podcast, in business, in the street, at the gym, someone might listen
0:08:43 to the show, they come up to me.
0:08:47 So I’m constantly trying to think about how to make a better first impression.
0:08:50 Because from the work that I’ve read of yours, they really matter, right?
0:08:51 They really matter.
0:08:52 They really matter.
0:08:52 How much?
0:08:54 Our first impressions are actually very accurate.
0:08:57 They find 76% accurate with our personality traits.
0:09:01 In other words, people can accurately guess after a first impression how extroverted you
0:09:02 are, how agreeable, how neurotic.
0:09:04 Actually, neurotic is the hardest one to guess.
0:09:05 We can hide that really well.
0:09:07 Openness and conscientiousness.
0:09:08 We’re pretty good at guessing that.
0:09:12 Like, I can guess that based on just the first few seconds of interaction, which means they’re
0:09:12 lasting.
0:09:17 So if you’ve made a bad first impression, it’s hard to recover.
0:09:19 I hate to be the bearer about it.
0:09:20 We can work on it.
0:09:25 But nailing that first impression will set you up for a lifetime of success with that person.
0:09:27 So it’s very important that we don’t throw them away.
0:09:30 And this is the number one mistake people make in a first impression.
0:09:32 They do it like this.
0:09:34 Oh, hi, nice to meet you.
0:09:39 Looking down at their phone or their iPad or their computer or their notepad or their book.
0:09:45 When we are looking down, it looks very much like the universal defeat posture.
0:09:47 Universal defeat is when we tuck our chin to our chest.
0:09:51 We usually have our very little space between our shoulders and our earlobes.
0:09:53 We have our arms close to our sides.
0:09:54 This, yeah.
0:09:56 Don’t you feel kind of horrible?
0:09:57 You look horrible.
0:09:58 Oh, thank you.
0:09:59 Look.
0:10:04 When you check your phone, every time you check your phone, you accidentally look like a loser.
0:10:07 And I mean that literally in terms of losing and winning.
0:10:11 So in a first impression, you’re waiting in the waiting room for a big job interview.
0:10:14 You’re waiting for your date for possibly your perfect person.
0:10:15 And what are you doing?
0:10:16 Checking your phone.
0:10:18 So I’m sat there looking like a loser.
0:10:19 Yeah.
0:10:23 That first impression that happens in the first few seconds of seeing you, and this is another mistake introverts make,
0:10:27 they think their first impression starts the moment they start talking.
0:10:28 No.
0:10:31 Your first impression happens the moment someone first sees you.
0:10:35 That’s when they walk into a room, open the door, walk into a restaurant, or look at your profile picture.
0:10:38 Profile pictures are even more important.
0:10:43 They’ve found that people make a first impression of you within the first hundred milliseconds of looking at your profile picture.
0:10:46 That’s so fast that you barely even realize you saw a picture.
0:10:54 But we are so attuned to look at someone’s facial expressions, their body posture, what’s visible, our clothing, our ornaments.
0:11:02 And what’s fascinating about this research is they found that different pictures of the same person can give different first impressions,
0:11:05 which means we are in control of our first impressions.
0:11:10 If different pictures of the same person, like if you have five different pictures of yourself,
0:11:12 and you put them up on different LinkedIn profiles,
0:11:14 people are going to make different judgments of you,
0:11:18 which means you can control the kind of judgment you want to make by picking the right picture,
0:11:20 but also having the right body language when someone first sees you.
0:11:22 Someone did a study on that?
0:11:24 Yeah, I think Semin Vazir, I think, did this study.
0:11:24 Yeah.
0:11:28 Don’t quote me, but I believe Semin Vazir does a lot on digital first impressions.
0:11:36 And what’s incredible is that small tweaks to your cues can have a massive impact on your impression.
0:11:40 So, for example, I’ve played around with this on mine where I’ll have my hand in my picture.
0:11:42 Like, there’s a big difference.
0:11:45 If you were to see me like this with my face on my hand, it’s called a face platter.
0:11:52 Okay, so for anyone that can’t see you, you’ve got both of your hands out and your chin resting in the middle of them.
0:11:53 It’s called a face platter, right?
0:11:55 Think of, like, my face on a platter for anyone who’s listening.
0:11:58 This is a very different impression than this.
0:12:06 Like, same face, face platter, warm, almost feminine, kind of girly, versus this, very professional, very competent.
0:12:07 Just that one difference.
0:12:17 So, all these cues are changing, especially if you’re first impressions happening on dating profile apps, on LinkedIn, in your email, like a little picture in your email, your website.
0:12:19 It is changing the way people treat you and think of you.
0:12:21 Okay, so let me show you some profile photos.
0:12:22 I would love to see.
0:12:24 And you tell me what they’re giving.
0:12:25 Oh, right.
0:12:25 Okay.
0:12:26 What is this giving?
0:12:28 Okay.
0:12:32 So, she’s leaning her head to one side with her cheek on her hand.
0:12:34 First, immediately, a head tilt.
0:12:36 A head tilt is a universal sign of engagement and warmth.
0:12:38 She’s giving me nurturing vibes.
0:12:40 Don’t you want to tell her all your problems?
0:12:42 Like, I would guess she’s a therapist or a life coach.
0:12:45 She has a watch on, which is a good ornament for competence.
0:12:47 So, she’s probably a therapist or maybe a psychoanalyst.
0:12:48 Probably has a degree.
0:12:49 She also wears glasses.
0:12:51 We like women in glasses and makeup.
0:12:52 We’re very competent.
0:12:54 It actually ups our competence factor.
0:12:56 By the way, this is just the research, not my opinion.
0:13:01 And she has a sweater tied around her top, and that’s very conservative.
0:13:05 So, I would say warm and nurturing could be a grandmother, likely in a self-help profession.
0:13:07 Correct.
0:13:17 So, some cues there we can learn from is we want to balance out the friendliness, the warmth, the approachability with the take me seriously.
0:13:22 So, you take her seriously because of her watch and her glasses and her lack of a smile.
0:13:24 Those are all cues of competence.
0:13:25 We like that.
0:13:27 We also like those cues of warmth.
0:13:31 Head tilt, hand on face, and a soft smile.
0:13:34 So, in that way, it’s a perfect balance or blend.
0:13:35 What about this guy?
0:13:36 Profile photo.
0:13:37 Okay.
0:13:40 So, we are seeing a gentleman with no hands.
0:13:42 So, we see no hand gestures, just his face.
0:13:45 He’s also tilting his chin down and his forehead is forward.
0:13:47 You also see a genuine smile.
0:13:54 The best thing about this picture is he’s doing an authentic smile because you can see those cheek muscles are activated, upper zygomaticus.
0:13:56 Terrible at saying that, but these muscles are activated.
0:13:58 So, very likable.
0:13:59 Oh, yeah, I like that.
0:14:00 Good job.
0:14:00 Yes.
0:14:01 I love this smile.
0:14:03 So, we love that authentic smile.
0:14:04 So, he’s very warm and approachable.
0:14:06 He’s also making eye contact with the camera.
0:14:07 Slight head tilt.
0:14:09 I would actually say this is very warm, almost too warm.
0:14:16 If he is a doctor or a professor or someone who needs to be taken seriously, I don’t know if I’d go to him with my problems.
0:14:18 It’s a lot of warmth for that photo.
0:14:20 And, by the way, I want to make this as helpful for folks at home.
0:14:24 So, think of your impression like a thermostat.
0:14:27 You can dial up your trust and your approachability by adding cues.
0:14:32 So, if you want to add warmth or trust or likability, you can add a head tilt.
0:14:33 You can show your hands.
0:14:35 Movement is also one.
0:14:39 So, sometimes you’ll see people who are like leaning their head over to the side or even in the process of a walk.
0:14:41 That’s why all those photographers use wind.
0:14:42 Oh, yeah.
0:14:43 Yeah?
0:14:46 It actually adds like this weird element of warmth.
0:14:57 If you want to dial up competence, power, if you want to be taken seriously, especially if you’re in a career where you’ve been challenged or interrupted or not taken seriously or underestimated, you really want to dial up.
0:14:59 You really want to dial up competence in your profile picture.
0:15:01 Like the cover of my books, I am not smiling.
0:15:06 And that is because I’m quite a smiley person and I want people to take me seriously.
0:15:08 So, I made a choice to not smile on my covers.
0:15:10 What about this chap?
0:15:10 All right.
0:15:12 This is a dating app profile photo.
0:15:13 Look, I love it.
0:15:16 Okay, this guy has a cat around his neck.
0:15:17 And you know what?
0:15:18 I love it.
0:15:19 Why?
0:15:22 Because if you love cats, you’re going to love this guy.
0:15:24 If you hate cats, you’re going to swipe.
0:15:27 We want to make people not like us with the ornaments we choose.
0:15:28 Right?
0:15:32 Like, I love when my husband wears a cowboy hat because certain people are going to love it.
0:15:33 Certain people aren’t going to like it.
0:15:34 He’s going to find his people.
0:15:35 We’re in Austin, Texas.
0:15:38 So, it would be weird if he, like, wore it in London or something like that.
0:15:39 Dee, what do you think?
0:15:44 Okay, so, I do not like sunglasses in photos at all.
0:15:48 And the reason for this is because research shows that we can produce oxytocin, which is
0:15:50 the chemical of connection, even through a lens.
0:15:55 When you can’t see someone’s eyes, it puts a little barrier in our head of, like, I don’t
0:15:55 know.
0:15:57 I don’t know about this person.
0:16:00 That’s chemically your body being, like, I cannot see her eyes.
0:16:02 So, I’m a hard no on sunglasses.
0:16:03 This is, like, she’s very distant from me.
0:16:06 Even though she has a beautiful smile, I can’t see the upper cheek muscles.
0:16:07 And I can’t see her eyes.
0:16:09 Does that apply to real life, too?
0:16:11 The sunglasses point.
0:16:12 Like, does it disconnect us from people?
0:16:14 You know, I haven’t seen research on that.
0:16:16 I’ve only seen research on sunglasses and photos.
0:16:18 So, I’m going to say in person, I think it’s okay.
0:16:23 But I will say, like, have you ever been with someone and they, like, take off their glasses
0:16:24 to see you better?
0:16:26 Has that ever happened to you?
0:16:26 Yes.
0:16:27 It feels good.
0:16:28 Yeah, like, they can.
0:16:32 If you want to show someone, I’m going to really listen to you, take off your glasses.
0:16:34 Or roll up your sleeves.
0:16:37 So, there’s also, we know this is a cue, is, like, let’s get into it.
0:16:40 I often see, like, leaders, when they’re getting into the get
0:16:42 into it, part of their speech, they roll up their sleeves.
0:16:44 Another one that I like is this one.
0:16:46 Rubbing your hands together.
0:16:46 Okay.
0:16:48 So, this is a universal get ready cue.
0:16:52 If you are about to share something really, really good to your team, you want to go like
0:16:52 this.
0:16:55 Guys, I got something good today.
0:16:58 You would like it.
0:17:00 You would like it if we were in a team meeting.
0:17:01 Yeah, okay.
0:17:01 Right?
0:17:04 It’s a universal cue of warming up.
0:17:06 So, going back then to first impressions.
0:17:09 How do I make a really bad first impression?
0:17:11 A really bad first impression?
0:17:11 Yeah.
0:17:13 So, we’ll do the bad first, then we’ll do the good.
0:17:17 You said one of the worst things one can do is to walk up on their phone, on a device,
0:17:18 et cetera.
0:17:20 Okay, so, bad is taking up as little space as possible.
0:17:20 Yeah.
0:17:21 Right?
0:17:23 No space between our arms and our torso.
0:17:25 No space between our shoulders and our earlobes.
0:17:27 The second thing is hidden hands.
0:17:31 So, hands in pockets, hand to the table, hands not in shot.
0:17:33 We like to see hands, especially right away.
0:17:34 It makes us feel in tension, right?
0:17:35 We like to know what’s going to happen.
0:17:36 So, I’m like, hi.
0:17:38 Good to see you.
0:17:40 I put my hands, a lot of my hands are in my profile pictures.
0:17:42 That’s a bad one, is hidden hands.
0:17:45 And the last one is avoidant gaze.
0:17:48 We really do like to make eye contact within the first few seconds of meeting someone.
0:17:51 It makes us feel like someone’s not avoiding that oxytocin.
0:17:53 It gives us a chemical burst of trust.
0:17:57 They even, you know, have people do nose sprays full of oxytocin, and it immediately makes
0:17:59 them share more, open more, connect more.
0:18:00 Yeah.
0:18:04 So, we want direct eye contact, visible hands, and a broad body.
0:18:05 What about-
0:18:06 I call it the triple threat, by the way.
0:18:07 The triple threat.
0:18:08 That’s the triple threat.
0:18:09 What about when sat at a table like this?
0:18:13 Because I sit here for hundreds and hundreds of hours listening to people.
0:18:14 And I am.
0:18:14 I’ve never said this before.
0:18:18 But I’m always really quite conscious about my body language, because I don’t want to signal
0:18:19 the wrong thing.
0:18:23 But because I’m thinking about so many things at once, I’m like, doing research while someone’s
0:18:24 talking.
0:18:25 I’m reading my notes.
0:18:26 I’m writing sometimes.
0:18:27 I’m jotting something down.
0:18:29 And I’m thinking about the next thing.
0:18:30 I’m thinking about the edit.
0:18:31 There’s a lot going on in my head.
0:18:36 I never want them to misconstrue it as like, a reflection on them.
0:18:42 So, how would you recommend that I conduct myself, whether it’s as a podcaster or in a
0:18:48 meeting when you’re with a client or whatever, to signal that I’m warm and competent and all
0:18:48 the good stuff?
0:18:49 Okay.
0:18:52 So, first easiest one is you’re always angled towards me.
0:18:58 I’m so grateful that you don’t have us angled at a V. So many podcasts I do are like that.
0:19:00 And it is very hard to connect with someone when they’re like that.
0:19:05 So, you’re already laying the groundwork of being aligned in your office right now.
0:19:09 If you work in an office, move your chairs so they’re not at an angle towards you.
0:19:10 They’re right at you.
0:19:13 That’s already going to set you up for success because I know we’re on the same page even
0:19:14 if you’re looking at something else.
0:19:17 Then you want to think about 60% eye contact.
0:19:18 It’s very specific.
0:19:24 In Western cultures, they find that the ideal, the sweet spot for oxytocin is 60 to 70%.
0:19:27 Some East Asian cultures, it’s less eye contact.
0:19:27 So, that’s okay.
0:19:30 But if you can hit that 60%, that’s not 100%.
0:19:33 Especially when I’m making an important point.
0:19:36 Like, you’ll often be doing no’s and you’ll look up at me when I’m making an important point.
0:19:37 That’s all I need to know.
0:19:38 I got this.
0:19:39 Keep going.
0:19:42 And then really powerful people make eye contact at the end of their point.
0:19:46 So, you could be talking like this, explaining this, remembering something.
0:19:50 But let me tell you, at the very end of my point, that’s when it matters.
0:19:52 Interesting.
0:19:54 And I think you actually do that pretty naturally.
0:19:55 I don’t know if you realize you’re doing it.
0:20:00 But if you’re in a meeting or presenting or you’re an interviewer, that’s actually what matters more.
0:20:03 Is that at the end of your sentence, you’re sealing it with that eye contact.
0:20:04 Yeah, because I look away.
0:20:05 So, I’m doing it now.
0:20:09 I look away because I’m struggling with my ideas, trying to articulate them.
0:20:11 And then once I’ve got it, I come back to you and make the point like that.
0:20:11 Yes.
0:20:12 And that actually is good.
0:20:14 It shows me that you’re processing.
0:20:19 We know as humans that I cannot do complex math problems while making eye contact.
0:20:20 Yeah.
0:20:21 We can’t do it.
0:20:27 And so, actually, it makes you look very thoughtful and pensive for the 40% you’re not looking at me when you’re gathering.
0:20:32 That actually, leaders do that because they’re showing I’m authentically coming up with the answer.
0:20:38 It would be very weird if you were delivering 100% with 100% eye contact because I would feel like it was scripted.
0:20:38 Yeah.
0:20:41 That’s one of the reasons why I think presenters make this problem.
0:20:48 And whenever I watch like Shark Tank or Dragon’s Den, a big mistake they make is they’re so rehearsed, they don’t break eye contact.
0:20:50 And it gives you sort of a robotic feeling.
0:20:56 So, if you’re practicing a presentation, you actually want to have a little bit of like ad lib in there.
0:21:01 You want to be processing around because it shows you’re authentically grabbing the information and that shows competence.
0:21:02 Right?
0:21:06 Highly competent people, they don’t need a script because they know their stuff so well.
0:21:07 They can just grab it out for you.
0:21:08 They can think on the spot.
0:21:10 Low competent people are memorized.
0:21:18 That is why like the TED Talks that we like the best, the pictures we like the best, they’re basically having a really smart conversation with you and you like it.
0:21:21 So, I like that you’re gathering away from me, that you’re thinking of a question.
0:21:27 The worst interviews I have is where someone is just beating me with questions and not thinking about it.
0:21:27 Yeah.
0:21:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:21:30 Okay.
0:21:35 So, gestures, eye contact, it’s okay to make only 60% eye contact.
0:21:36 That’s the triple threat.
0:21:40 The other thing in a first impression that I really like is breaking the script, right?
0:21:44 I think in a first impression, it’s okay to be like, hey, good morning.
0:21:46 But when we do the, how are you?
0:21:46 Good.
0:21:47 How are you?
0:21:47 Good.
0:21:47 How are you?
0:21:48 Good.
0:21:48 How are you?
0:21:50 And you get like that horrible like loop.
0:21:54 I’m going to challenge everyone to try to break the script with how are you.
0:21:56 So, when someone asks, how are you?
0:21:57 Don’t say good.
0:21:59 Don’t say busy, but good.
0:22:02 Try to answer with like a little bit of humor.
0:22:02 Okay.
0:22:03 If you can.
0:22:04 Now, I’m not funny.
0:22:06 So, we should take this advice with a grain of salt.
0:22:07 You are funny.
0:22:08 But I’m not that funny.
0:22:10 But there’s a couple things you can do.
0:22:11 So, one is you can answer with a number.
0:22:14 So, like, you laughed.
0:22:15 I didn’t even do it yet and you already laughed.
0:22:16 Right?
0:22:16 Seven.
0:22:18 Most people say seven.
0:22:19 I was going to say seven.
0:22:20 Oh, really?
0:22:20 Right?
0:22:21 So, if you’re like, someone’s like, how are you?
0:22:23 And you’re like, seven on a ten scale.
0:22:24 Right?
0:22:26 Like, it just, it breaks the script a little bit.
0:22:29 I also love when you say what you’re wrestling with.
0:22:33 So, I might be like, just been fighting my inbox all day, but a good ten out of ten.
0:22:38 Like, sometimes it’s good to give like a little bit of context of like what you’ve been dealing with for the day.
0:22:43 Or if you know that you look a mess, you can be like, better on the inside than the outside.
0:22:45 Better on the inside than the outside.
0:22:45 Okay.
0:22:45 Right?
0:22:51 Like, something that just gets people thinking a little bit, it kind of breaks the script and it makes for a very nice first impression.
0:22:55 So, first impressions, make sure the conversation doesn’t hit a dead end, essentially.
0:22:57 And break the script.
0:22:58 Yeah, break the script.
0:22:58 Break the script.
0:23:03 So, like, I’d rather you take a little bit of a risk and have some conversational courage to not do the script.
0:23:04 Right?
0:23:06 Because then you’re going to make a way better first impression.
0:23:06 Yeah.
0:23:08 And that also means not asking, how are you?
0:23:09 But instead being like, what’s good?
0:23:15 So, like, when I start a conversation, like, anytime, I try never to ask, how are you?
0:23:16 I try to say, what’s good?
0:23:17 Anything good today?
0:23:21 It’s a very subtle, subtle change on that.
0:23:24 And it makes people think for a second in a good way.
0:23:27 They’re like, oh, yeah, what’s good?
0:23:29 And it totally changes the nature of the conversation.
0:23:32 I do this here sometimes.
0:23:37 So, when a guest comes in, the question that I always ask pretty much everyone that sits down is, like, what’s front of mind for you at the moment?
0:23:38 Is that a good one?
0:23:39 I like that one a lot.
0:23:42 I would prefer what have you been looking forward to?
0:23:44 Are you looking forward to anything in your life?
0:23:45 Is that because it’s positive?
0:23:46 Yeah.
0:23:47 It’s juicing excitement.
0:23:53 So, like, I think our job, if you want to really be a master communicator, is you are gifting good chemicals.
0:23:56 You know that phrase, like, leave people better than you found them?
0:23:56 Yeah.
0:23:58 I take that quite literally.
0:24:03 I think master communicators are literally gifting beautiful chemicals to the other person.
0:24:06 They’re making people feel super full of dopamine.
0:24:08 Dopamine is, like, very simplified.
0:24:10 Excitement, motivation, energy.
0:24:12 They’re gifting testosterone.
0:24:13 You feel capable.
0:24:14 You feel smart.
0:24:15 Wow, you’re good at what you do.
0:24:16 Right?
0:24:18 And you leave feeling like, like, I’m so good.
0:24:18 This is for both men and women.
0:24:20 You’re gifting serotonin.
0:24:22 Calm, belonging.
0:24:23 You’ve got this.
0:24:25 You can be yourself with me.
0:24:27 I give you permission to be yourself.
0:24:28 I love you for who you are.
0:24:33 Like, I think one of the reasons why people often verbal vomit on me, like, they tell me everything about their lives.
0:24:37 I think it’s because I’m, like, trying to gift them serotonin.
0:24:41 I want them to feel like they can be absolutely themselves and I accept them for exactly who they are.
0:24:46 So serotonin, dopamine, and testosterone, if we can gift those out, I call it, like, the chemical cocktail.
0:24:49 Like, that’s the cocktail I want to give to everyone in my conversation.
0:24:51 And that’s what master communicators are doing.
0:24:53 And how would I give you all those things?
0:24:53 Okay.
0:24:56 So you break the script by just waking me up, right?
0:24:56 Like, this is going to be different.
0:24:58 Then you ask, what have you been looking forward to?
0:25:04 Like, if you ask me what’s been in front of mind, I’m going to probably give you a negative answer, to be quite honest with you.
0:25:06 Do you usually get negative answers to that question?
0:25:09 Negative or neutral.
0:25:11 It’s typically something work-related.
0:25:15 So, they’ll say, my book tour, I’m trying to get this published, blah, blah, blah.
0:25:15 Yeah.
0:25:16 And you’re bored, aren’t you?
0:25:20 It’s somewhat interesting to me because I write it down and then I’ll talk to them about it.
0:25:23 But, I mean, if it was a social conversation, it wouldn’t be interesting.
0:25:24 Yeah.
0:25:29 And I would argue, like, you would be more engaged if you got an exciting answer, even in this setting.
0:25:29 Yeah.
0:25:30 So, you’re bored.
0:25:31 They’re bored.
0:25:38 So, one, if you’re, like, looking forward to anything, got any fun plans coming up, those are all, like, gifting little bits of dopamine.
0:25:43 Then capitalizing on any moment that I call a Me Too moment.
0:25:44 I have this theory.
0:25:45 It’s called Thread Theory.
0:25:50 And it’s this idea that in conversation, we are throwing threads at each other.
0:25:55 So, like, if we have a shared thing, I have thrown a thread, you get it, and you pull it.
0:25:57 And it’s, like, you’re trying to get even more out of me.
0:26:01 The more threads that there are between you and me, the more we like each other and the closer we get.
0:26:03 Me Too moments create serotonin.
0:26:06 When I say, I like X, and you’re like, what?
0:26:07 I like X too.
0:26:10 We’re like, like, chemically.
0:26:12 And that makes me feel serotonin.
0:26:13 It makes me feel calm, belonging.
0:26:14 I can be myself.
0:26:22 So, any time in a conversation that someone says anything that you agree with, or you feel like, I have that too, you want to capitalize and be like, Thread, Me Too.
0:26:26 How do you stop it feeling like you’re making it about yourself, though?
0:26:30 Because if you said to me, you’ve got a Cybertruck outside.
0:26:34 If you walked in and said, oh, I’ve just bought a Cybertruck.
0:26:35 And I go, I’ve just bought a Cybertruck.
0:26:38 Okay, so there’s a big difference between how you said it and how I said it.
0:26:40 Okay, so I say, I just got a Cybertruck.
0:26:41 Oh, yeah, join the club.
0:26:43 That’s what you want me to say?
0:26:43 Yeah.
0:26:45 I wouldn’t say it like that, though.
0:26:47 There is a difference here, because I’m British.
0:26:49 And British people are very like, we’re very like.
0:26:49 I know.
0:26:50 You know what I mean?
0:26:51 You’re so demure.
0:26:52 Is that what it is?
0:26:52 Demure.
0:26:55 We’re just very, oh, yeah, join the club.
0:26:55 Could you imagine?
0:26:56 I would have liked it.
0:26:57 You would freak out.
0:26:58 No, you’re saying that.
0:26:59 You would like it because it’s so weird.
0:27:01 I like weird people.
0:27:07 Is there anything else in the first impressions bucket before we move on to second impressions?
0:27:12 And what I mean by that is really like, how do I then cement and invest in that relationship
0:27:13 so I can keep it?
0:27:18 Okay, so if you’ve made a good first impression, you are set up for success.
0:27:19 It’s great.
0:27:24 If you’re making a second impression because you weren’t sure how the last one went, right,
0:27:29 or you want to kind of build on it further, your best bet is to show them how much they
0:27:30 were on your mind.
0:27:34 Everyone’s number one worry in this world is, did I leave an impression?
0:27:34 Am I memorable?
0:27:36 That’s what we want to know.
0:27:40 So the very first thing you want to assure them is, oh, I loved our last meeting.
0:27:43 I’ve been looking so forward to this lunch, right?
0:27:49 So can you assure them that you’re so happy to see them, talk to them, hear from them,
0:27:50 say anything on the phone?
0:27:51 Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad you called.
0:27:56 Like that warmth of you were right to call.
0:27:57 You were right to text.
0:27:59 You were right to show up, right?
0:28:03 Like if someone texts me, of course, like not if I’m texting someone all day long,
0:28:05 but if someone texts me and I’m like, oh, my gosh, I’m so glad you texted.
0:28:07 I will literally say that.
0:28:08 I was just thinking of you, right?
0:28:10 Like, oh, I’m so glad you reached out.
0:28:12 I always love our conversations.
0:28:16 Like that immediate you’re good here is serotonin.
0:28:19 That’s that belonging feeling of like you’re already safe.
0:28:21 You’re letting someone be themselves right off the bat.
0:28:23 What about online first impressions?
0:28:26 Is there anything that I need to think about if I’m on, because so much of our lives runs
0:28:27 on Zoom or Google Hangouts now.
0:28:28 Yes.
0:28:31 Okay, so first, can we talk about just like dating apps?
0:28:33 Yes, sure.
0:28:35 Okay, so they’ve actually done research on this.
0:28:42 You are better off opening with a unique word or phrase than just hi, hello, how are you?
0:28:43 So like howdy.
0:28:49 If you’re in Texas, even if you’re not in Texas, howdy, aloha, what’s good?
0:28:53 Anything that’s not that hi or hello is a little bit different.
0:28:54 It’s going to make you stand out.
0:28:54 So if you can.
0:28:55 Hey?
0:28:56 Nope.
0:28:59 You’re defeating the spirit of the study here.
0:29:00 Okay.
0:29:01 Okay.
0:29:04 So like not a hey, not a hi, not a what’s up, not a how are you?
0:29:04 Okay.
0:29:08 But like can you have like a signature phrase or like a…
0:29:08 Bingo.
0:29:10 I would take it.
0:29:11 You would take it.
0:29:12 Bingo.
0:29:13 I’m in your inbox.
0:29:18 They study this and they found that there’s so much noise.
0:29:21 There’s so much noise that if you can be the red apple.
0:29:25 So this is a story when I was, I used to be a camp counselor when I was younger.
0:29:26 That’s how I made money.
0:29:33 And I noticed this phenomenon during break where I would bring always a basket of fruit for break.
0:29:36 And usually it was all red apples or all green apples.
0:29:43 And I noticed if I had a basket of green apples and one red apple, every single camper had to have that red apple.
0:29:47 But I would ask them, do you like the red apple better?
0:29:49 And they’d be like, no, I just want that one because it’s the only one.
0:29:56 And I’ve never forgotten that in that I think that really special people, master communicators, are the red apple.
0:29:57 They’re not oranges.
0:29:58 They’re still fitting in with everyone.
0:30:00 But they’re just like a little bit different.
0:30:06 And that’s, I think, how it should be both in business and also in romance is can you be a red apple where you’re still the same?
0:30:10 You’re not like wacko crazy, but you’re like a little different than everyone else.
0:30:20 So like a bingo or a howdy or an aloha or a shalom or whatever it is, I think that it makes you stand out just enough where you have that kind of peak effect.
0:30:24 The peak effect is like you piqued someone’s curiosity a little bit and that that really works.
0:30:27 That’s why marketing campaigns that are a little different, they always work better.
0:30:32 And what about then on Zoom and other sort of business, professional environments?
0:30:36 Okay, so in Zoom and professional environments, please turn your camera on.
0:30:37 Yeah.
0:30:39 Please turn your camera on.
0:30:45 This sounds obvious, but more and more people are turning their camera off, especially if you have back-to-back meetings.
0:30:51 But if you can have your camera on just for the first few seconds, it is a game changer for people’s perception of you.
0:30:55 So one is make sure that you are not accidentally negative.
0:30:57 Here’s how this happens.
0:30:58 Can you see me?
0:30:59 Can you hear me?
0:31:00 Oh.
0:31:01 Oh, hi.
0:31:08 A lot of Zoom impressions happen where someone is caught off guard or they’re in the middle of like, can you see me?
0:31:08 Can you hear me?
0:31:10 And they’re fixing themselves and then they make a first impression.
0:31:11 No, your first impression already happened.
0:31:14 It happened the moment your camera turned on.
0:31:19 Remember, your first impression on video happens the moment someone first sees you, not when you start talking.
0:31:23 So your first impression is usually, hey, morning.
0:31:25 So you raised your hand there.
0:31:27 I always, I always give a wave or a hi.
0:31:29 I make sure my camera is at least three feet away from my nose.
0:31:32 Like I literally have measuring tape to make sure I’m not too close.
0:31:34 I make sure that my body is angled towards the camera.
0:31:37 And then usually I have a question ready.
0:31:38 And here’s why.
0:31:44 In person, it’s so much easier to make conversations, especially around context or like, oh, you know, how was it easy getting here?
0:31:47 I loved your Cybertruck, very hard on Zoom.
0:31:54 And so what happens is you get on and you go, hi, hi, weather good where you are?
0:31:56 It’s like, it’s so awkward.
0:31:57 Be ready.
0:32:00 Be ready with an anecdote or a question.
0:32:01 I like an anecdote.
0:32:07 So if you’ve done anything good, interesting, seen anything good or interesting, I want you to be ready to share it.
0:32:08 It sounds like this.
0:32:10 Hey, morning.
0:32:11 Oh my gosh.
0:32:14 I just discovered the best breakfast taco in Austin.
0:32:15 Best breakfast taco in Austin.
0:32:17 Have you ever had a breakfast taco?
0:32:18 Whatever.
0:32:21 But like I was ready to go with that anecdote.
0:32:25 I think that that’s how we should pre-start all of our radio calls is like some small anecdote or story.
0:32:27 And that also helps in conversation.
0:32:30 Like I believe everyone should have a story toolbox.
0:32:33 So in conversation, there are certain topics that will always come up.
0:32:37 Weather, traffic, and where you’re from.
0:32:39 So here’s my challenge.
0:32:40 This is what master communicators do.
0:32:42 Whenever those three topics come up,
0:32:45 I want you to have one story about each of them.
0:32:46 It could be a trivia.
0:32:47 It could be a story.
0:32:47 It could be a fact.
0:32:52 That you’re ready to go to shift the conversation away from boring weather to something really interesting.
0:32:54 When someone asks, where are you from?
0:32:57 You should say, oh, I’m from Los Angeles.
0:32:58 Interesting fact.
0:32:59 Interesting story.
0:33:02 That little interesting story.
0:33:06 Like someone the other day said to me, oh, I’m from this place, maybe Liverpool.
0:33:07 Liverpool.
0:33:09 And he said, oh, it’s where Banksy’s from.
0:33:10 And I was like, oh.
0:33:12 And we had a whole conversation about Banksy.
0:33:14 And I was like, that was it.
0:33:15 He said where he was from.
0:33:19 But instead of being Liverpool, I’d be like, cool, never been there.
0:33:19 He was like, Liverpool.
0:33:21 It’s supposedly where Banksy’s from.
0:33:22 I was like, really?
0:33:24 But don’t we, do we even know who Banksy is?
0:33:25 And he’s like, well, we don’t know.
0:33:26 But he could have been in my high school.
0:33:28 We had a whole fun conversation about Banksy.
0:33:32 And I asked him afterwards, I was like, do you always share that comment?
0:33:34 He’s like, yeah, because it creates the most interesting conversation.
0:33:38 So when you say where you’re from, have an interesting fact or interesting story.
0:33:43 I read a book about traffic, literally to have interesting stories about traffic.
0:33:49 Like, for example, in Los Angeles, everyone says the 101, the 5, the 10.
0:33:51 That’s the only place in the world where we say that.
0:33:53 So sometimes I’ll even, like someone will be like, oh, traffic.
0:33:56 And I’ll be like, oh, so are you a the person?
0:33:57 Do you say the?
0:33:59 And we get in a whole conversation about.
0:34:04 So I have little things that create a little bit of juice.
0:34:05 And I’m always rotating them out.
0:34:07 So in your phone, create a note called Story Toolbox.
0:34:12 And have the topics that typically come up in your conversation and start saving little stories for them.
0:34:13 It is the same stuff.
0:34:16 It’s like 80, 90% of the time, it’s the same stuff.
0:34:17 It’s the same questions.
0:34:17 How are you?
0:34:18 Where are you?
0:34:18 How’s the weather?
0:34:19 Traffic?
0:34:21 I’m constantly adding that Story Toolbox.
0:34:24 And I’m rotating out my facts and trivia because I get bored.
0:34:27 What if you, like, stumble across the same person twice and you don’t realize you’ve hit them with the same story?
0:34:29 Because if you, if we do Zoom.
0:34:30 But I don’t talk to the same people again.
0:34:31 I’m just kidding.
0:34:36 If we did a couple of Zoom calls and you kept coming on going, are you a that person?
0:34:38 Or I’d go, wait a minute.
0:34:38 Like.
0:34:42 No, if we were doing regular Zoom calls, you would know that I’m probably going to ask you what’s good.
0:34:44 And you’d probably be pre-thinking about what’s good in your life.
0:34:47 Like, I have a friend who always asks, what are you learning?
0:34:51 And whenever I go hang out with him, I make sure I’m learning something.
0:34:53 Like, it actually preps me in a good way.
0:34:55 So you would know me for certain questions.
0:35:05 And that would, I think, my experience is when you’re known for asking better questions, people actually come into the conversation more excited with better expectations to interact with you.
0:35:07 So, like, be known for it.
0:35:09 Like, fine, be known for the traffic trivia.
0:35:11 Or, like, worse comes to worse.
0:35:12 Someone says, oh, yeah, the the thing.
0:35:13 We talked about that last time.
0:35:14 And I’d be like, oh, my gosh, yes.
0:35:16 And then I forgot you’re from Ohio.
0:35:17 Great.
0:35:18 I remember you.
0:35:19 How important is the background?
0:35:21 On your Zoom videos?
0:35:21 Yeah.
0:35:22 Pretty important.
0:35:28 I also have a thing against, like, blurred out fake backgrounds.
0:35:30 I don’t like when people use a fake background.
0:35:33 I think there was actually some Harvard business research on this.
0:35:34 But it was during COVID.
0:35:37 So it kind of changes, you know, the research.
0:35:41 But as a human, we get very distracted by fake backgrounds.
0:35:45 So please think twice about blurring out your background or putting a fake background around you.
0:35:47 Like, you know, one of those backdrops.
0:35:49 The eye, it’s like a green screen.
0:35:52 You know, when you see on a green screen, your eye is like something is not right.
0:35:54 People will perceive you as more inauthentic.
0:35:57 I would much rather you have conversation cues behind you, right?
0:36:01 Like, you have the most wonderful bookshelf of cues in Captivate up there, right?
0:36:02 Like my books, which I love.
0:36:04 And you rotate those books out.
0:36:10 So as I’m talking, if I wanted to make conversation with you, I could be like, oh, my gosh, yes, Peter Atiyah’s book, Outlive, so good.
0:36:10 Did you like it?
0:36:12 What was your biggest takeaway from that?
0:36:15 Or like it gives me gifts of conversation.
0:36:18 I also noticed like one time I was looking at Kevin Hart.
0:36:20 He was on a Zoom call.
0:36:24 And his background was all of his favorite comedians behind him.
0:36:26 And it was like a great conversation starter.
0:36:32 And he even had one of the comedians behind him was like holding up his hand like this, like literally in a permanent hello.
0:36:37 And I was like, oh, my gosh, like Kevin Hart doesn’t even realize he’s doing the best nonverbal cue there is, which is palms.
0:36:39 Like we love a palm.
0:36:44 And what about looking at the camera versus looking at the face of the person?
0:36:47 So I try to make them as close as possible.
0:36:54 So like just physically speaking, if you can try to make your camera and the person as close as possible, it’s going to help you be more authentic, right?
0:36:56 So like my screen is not over here.
0:37:02 I see some people will have the mistake of they’re like, you know, they’re off to the side and then like kind of looking over their shoulder at the camera.
0:37:03 Please don’t do that.
0:37:08 So I have mine even like propped up so like your face would be very close to the top of the camera.
0:37:13 If you can get 50% eye contact with them and 50% eye contact with the camera, I’d be very happy.
0:37:16 Research does show that we can get oxytocin through a screen.
0:37:17 Really?
0:37:17 Yeah, yeah.
0:37:22 Even though it’s not real, our brain is still sort of, oh, yeah, they’re looking at me.
0:37:23 They’re talking to me.
0:37:24 They’re not hiding anything.
0:37:26 So 50-50 if you can do it.
0:37:33 Now, we were talking a second ago about first impressions, then second impressions, but also dating profile photos yesterday or the day before.
0:37:41 My team here took you to a bar in Austin, Texas, and you met two different couples that were going on a first date.
0:37:45 And your job was to coach them both so they had success on that date.
0:37:52 And on that first date, one member of the couple had an earpiece in so you could speak to them directly and give them advice on what they should do.
0:37:57 We’re going to play some videos for anyone that’s able to watch, but you give me the context on what happened and what you observed.
0:38:11 So we had the first date, and they were very well matched, by the way.
0:38:19 What was shocking about this date, though, is the female, Ashley, I could not tell if she liked him.
0:38:21 I literally had no idea.
0:38:25 And I was in her ear, so I was whispering in her ear things to say and to ask.
0:38:29 I was giving her all the warmth because she looked very cold.
0:38:32 You would never have known she was into this guy.
0:38:32 You would never have known.
0:38:34 She said, oh, yeah, I’m really physically attracted to him.
0:38:36 I was like, what?
0:38:38 You didn’t act attracted at all.
0:38:43 And her questions were all very fact-based.
0:38:45 What I wanted her to do is bring in more warmth.
0:38:46 So we can watch it if you want.
0:38:47 Let’s watch him.
0:38:47 See?
0:38:50 Are you ready to meet your lady?
0:38:51 Are you ready?
0:38:52 Yeah.
0:38:54 Okay, so what is going to be your opening line?
0:38:58 We’ve got to prepare our conversation starters because we can’t do a, how are you?
0:38:59 How are you?
0:39:00 We can’t do that.
0:39:01 What if I started with a, who are you?
0:39:03 Okay, that breaks the scripts.
0:39:04 I like it.
0:39:05 That, I mean, yeah, that’s like, what?
0:39:06 Can I give you another one, though?
0:39:08 Can you consider what’s been good?
0:39:10 And remember, it’s good also, the same tip.
0:39:12 If you were to see someone in a grocery store, someone in the park,
0:39:14 it’s like, what’s the opener when it’s cold?
0:39:15 Right, right, right.
0:39:17 So like, I don’t like a, how are you?
0:39:18 I don’t like a, what’s up, doc?
0:39:19 Yeah, weather’s great, right?
0:39:20 No, no.
0:39:21 No, I know.
0:39:24 No, no, so like, what’s been good or like, what feels good to you?
0:39:28 If you see something you like about her, feel free to authentically compliment if, right?
0:39:29 Yeah.
0:39:33 If you’re like, oh my gosh, you look beautiful, you know, like, that’s a good one.
0:39:35 So I think you can ask like, what’s the goal you’re working on?
0:39:37 Like, cash, still a little good.
0:39:40 Because then they’ll say, I mean, what do you, are you think you’re going to be in Austin forever?
0:39:43 That’s a very casual way of being like, what’s your five-year plan?
0:39:44 My goal is, a little bit of depth.
0:39:47 I know you can make friends with anyone, but I want you to see if there’s like an actual
0:39:48 connection there.
0:39:48 Okay.
0:39:49 Okay.
0:39:52 And then to see if it’s, if you want to connect with her, I want you to ask her out at the end
0:39:53 of the day.
0:39:54 Yeah?
0:39:56 So what did you observe there when you watch it back?
0:39:58 Okay, so do you see he got nervous?
0:39:59 Yeah, his body like, he went, ugh.
0:40:03 Because I knew it’s easy for him to make friends with anyone.
0:40:07 And very likable men sometimes have really a hard time getting serious relationships because
0:40:09 they’re so likable, they can make friends with everyone.
0:40:12 They get confused about where the depth is.
0:40:14 Is that a bit of a defense mechanism as well?
0:40:17 It’s a defense mechanism and it’s also what he’s good at.
0:40:21 We want to do what we’re good at, which is, you know, making a chit-chat.
0:40:22 And a lot of people do this on dates.
0:40:24 They’ll be like, where are you from in Austin?
0:40:26 No, that’s the wrong question.
0:40:29 What you ask is, what are your favorite secret spots in Austin?
0:40:31 What do you love about Austin?
0:40:33 What are the most underrated restaurants in Austin?
0:40:35 That is breaking the script.
0:40:36 And that happened to them on this date.
0:40:40 There was a good five or 10 minutes of boring fluff because they were on that.
0:40:42 And I was like, get to the deeper questions.
0:40:46 So when you’re asking these questions to prepare ahead of time, what’s the most underrated
0:40:46 thing?
0:40:48 What’s your favorite thing that would have been better?
0:40:50 But he got very nervous when I started it.
0:40:50 I challenged him on depth.
0:40:53 So the next video is the meeting.
0:40:57 Feel free to pause it if there’s anything pertinent or anything interesting you want to show me.
0:40:59 What’s your favorite spot to go to around here though?
0:41:03 To be honest, I don’t go out very much.
0:41:04 Okay, nice.
0:41:05 What do you do?
0:41:06 Okay.
0:41:11 If someone said that to me, I’d assume they weren’t interested in me.
0:41:12 Exactly right.
0:41:13 Okay.
0:41:16 So this is called dream killing in conversation.
0:41:21 When someone asks you a question and you shut it down by saying, I don’t do that.
0:41:22 I don’t like that.
0:41:25 I don’t want that with nothing else left.
0:41:25 Like she just stopped.
0:41:27 I don’t, to be honest, I don’t really go out that much.
0:41:31 And he said to me afterwards, that’s the thing I’m most nervous about is that she sort of shut
0:41:32 that down.
0:41:36 So when you don’t like something, don’t dream kill the conversation.
0:41:39 A better way to answer that would be, you know what?
0:41:44 I do love to be in my jam jams at home on the couch watching Netflix, but for the right
0:41:46 occasion, I can get out and party sometimes.
0:41:50 That would have been a better way to answer that question because it’s a little bit playful
0:41:52 and it’s not totally dream killing his charisma.
0:41:53 And watch this.
0:41:56 She’s going to act like she’s not interested at all, but she’s actually very attracted to
0:41:56 him.
0:41:57 She said that to me.
0:41:59 Mark.
0:42:00 A lot.
0:42:01 Okay.
0:42:02 Tell him something you love.
0:42:03 Tell him something you love.
0:42:03 What do I love?
0:42:07 What do I, what do I love, what I love to do?
0:42:11 Work out, be outside, be active.
0:42:12 Yeah.
0:42:13 These are waters.
0:42:13 Oh, okay.
0:42:14 Yeah.
0:42:15 I was like, I don’t know what this is.
0:42:19 Always, always do a cheers.
0:42:20 Cheers, Steven.
0:42:21 Cheers.
0:42:21 Cheers.
0:42:22 Cheers.
0:42:23 What does that do?
0:42:24 Okay.
0:42:24 Cheers.
0:42:28 It immediately warmed her up.
0:42:30 She was very, very stiff in this.
0:42:34 And I was like, I said to her in her ear, by the way, he did not know, Kendrick, poor Kendrick,
0:42:37 he still doesn’t know that I was, we never told him.
0:42:38 I never told him.
0:42:38 Okay.
0:42:39 Surprise.
0:42:42 He didn’t know that I was in her ear whispering.
0:42:43 She was so stiff.
0:42:44 I said, tell him what you love.
0:42:48 Because I was trying to get her to show any kind of warmth or excitement at all.
0:42:50 Because she was so stiff.
0:42:52 And then she still, she was like, what do I love?
0:42:53 I work out.
0:42:55 I just can’t believe that she actually liked him.
0:42:56 Yes.
0:42:59 Because everything about her is giving, I can’t wait to leave.
0:43:02 This is why we’re having a baby crisis.
0:43:05 It’s because we’re afraid to show that we like someone.
0:43:08 She was physically attracted to him and into him.
0:43:09 You would never know it.
0:43:12 I was the one saying, cheers him.
0:43:13 Say what you love.
0:43:14 Ask him about his family.
0:43:17 And so I think that this is a crisis because we think we’re being obvious.
0:43:19 We are not being obvious.
0:43:20 Yeah.
0:43:22 I don’t know.
0:43:22 I know.
0:43:25 I was just sitting here like, this is a Tuesday, which is crazy.
0:43:27 How long have you been in Austin?
0:43:29 Two years.
0:43:29 Okay.
0:43:31 No, that’s great.
0:43:33 Right?
0:43:35 Like, that’s why that didn’t work.
0:43:36 You just heard it.
0:43:37 That’s what I don’t need to do on a date.
0:43:38 It’s a conversational dead end.
0:43:43 No numbers, questions, unless you are absolutely desperate for conversation and you’re willing
0:43:44 to ask a follow-up.
0:43:45 But it was like, how about you?
0:43:47 Horrible.
0:43:48 How long have you been in Austin?
0:43:49 She went four years.
0:43:50 And then there was a gap.
0:43:53 She had no intent at all of asking a follow-up question.
0:43:53 Right.
0:43:55 No intent at all of asking a follow-up question.
0:43:56 And he didn’t know what to do with it.
0:44:00 It’s funny because when I watch this, I think he really likes her because he’s leading the
0:44:03 conversation and she’s just hitting the ball back.
0:44:03 That’s right.
0:44:05 But actually, she was very into it.
0:44:07 She just didn’t know how to hit the ball back.
0:44:08 Right?
0:44:10 So if you’re going to be in conversation, you want to be a master communicator.
0:44:13 By the way, there are drivers and passengers in conversation.
0:44:14 This is what I’m researching right now.
0:44:16 You actually don’t want all drivers.
0:44:19 You don’t want two people asking all the questions, but you have to be a good passenger.
0:44:22 But she should have said two years.
0:44:25 But actually, I feel like Austin has changed so much in the last two years.
0:44:26 Have you noticed that?
0:44:27 Have you been here for a long time?
0:44:31 Like she should have added one more thing to not dream kill.
0:44:33 Like three years.
0:44:33 Okay.
0:44:34 Yeah.
0:44:35 I’m from Ohio.
0:44:35 Okay.
0:44:37 Like the Akron area.
0:44:37 Okay.
0:44:39 So ask him, what do you love about Ohio?
0:44:40 Do you love, do you miss Ohio?
0:44:41 No.
0:44:42 No?
0:44:42 Not really.
0:44:43 I mean, I’ll go back.
0:44:44 My whole family’s there, right?
0:44:45 Can I ask how old you are?
0:44:47 Uh, guess.
0:44:48 Oh, okay.
0:44:49 Guess 30.
0:44:50 Um, 30?
0:44:51 Yeah.
0:44:52 Why did you say guess 30?
0:44:53 Okay.
0:44:55 So I was giving her a micro win.
0:45:00 So she, remember, we’re trying to gift dopamine, serotonin, and testosterone.
0:45:01 Very simplified.
0:45:03 It was not going great, right?
0:45:06 I was watching and this is like, oh my God, we’re talking about Akron, Ohio.
0:45:07 We’re in trouble now, right?
0:45:09 So he tried with her.
0:45:12 So I knew if she guessed right, it would like make her feel good.
0:45:13 And I needed her to feel good.
0:45:14 So she would start driving.
0:45:16 She would start driving the conversation.
0:45:17 So that’s why I made, I told, I knew his age.
0:45:19 I’ll be 31 in like a week.
0:45:20 Okay.
0:45:23 I know you’re not supposed to, oh wait, you’re birthed, so you’re an Aries.
0:45:24 Yeah.
0:45:25 I’m an Aries too.
0:45:25 Me too moment.
0:45:27 They set this up on purpose.
0:45:30 They literally did.
0:45:30 Yeah.
0:45:32 Wait, so what day is your birthday?
0:45:33 April 1st.
0:45:33 Okay.
0:45:35 Oh, I’m March 29th.
0:45:35 What are you doing?
0:45:36 Are you serious?
0:45:36 Yeah.
0:45:37 I think that’s my mother’s birthday.
0:45:39 What’s her body language giving here?
0:45:41 Very closed.
0:45:41 Yeah.
0:45:43 And in, I’d never done this before.
0:45:48 I wanted to say to her, open up, laugh more, touch your lips, touch your hair.
0:45:52 There are a lot of things that women can do to show, I am feeling physically attracted
0:45:52 to you.
0:45:56 But I was like, ooh, like I wasn’t sure she was physically attracted.
0:45:59 So here I am thinking, is she physically attracted?
0:46:03 If she wanted to show him I’m into you, she could have touched her hair.
0:46:05 She could have touched her lips.
0:46:07 She could have touched the side of her face.
0:46:10 All of those are gestures of like self-touch that show interest.
0:46:12 But she didn’t show any of that.
0:46:16 She also was, I see how tight, see how little space she’s taking up?
0:46:17 Defeated body language, let’s say.
0:46:19 So very, very closed off.
0:46:22 We are going to be in trouble if we can’t show that we like someone.
0:46:27 I also want you to notice, as soon as they had the Me Too moment, the thread theory, they
0:46:27 both warmed up.
0:46:28 Yeah, they did, yeah.
0:46:32 Like once we get a Me Too moment, it’s like so much faster to laugh for.
0:46:34 She actually like literally physically relaxed.
0:46:37 Because we, I love dancing and they like always have a DJ.
0:46:38 It’s more like clubby.
0:46:39 Do you love dancing?
0:46:40 Say, I love dancing.
0:46:42 I love dancing.
0:46:43 Yeah, I love throwing my ass.
0:46:43 That’s what I do.
0:46:45 She was going to let that go.
0:46:47 But I was trying to give her a thread.
0:46:47 I love dancing.
0:46:49 And also I’m trying to get her to say love.
0:46:52 So a lot of the questions I were like, what do you love about Ohio?
0:46:53 Do you love dancing?
0:46:57 Like when you use more words like that, you’re actually cuing for that.
0:47:02 I think we talked about last time that when you use, like when they had people split up
0:47:05 into Wall Street and community, people who were told they were playing the community game
0:47:07 actually acted in a more communal way.
0:47:12 When you use words like love and excitement and good and looking forward, you actually create
0:47:13 those feelings.
0:47:17 So on a date, you want to be using the words that you’re trying to create, especially because
0:47:18 she actually felt something.
0:47:20 She liked him a lot.
0:47:21 But even beyond a date, right?
0:47:22 In a professional context.
0:47:22 Yes.
0:47:25 Then it would be like, let’s have some wins.
0:47:26 Like what’s good, right?
0:47:30 You’re trying to have efficiency and productivity and trust and collaboration.
0:47:34 If you want to have a collaborative meeting, literally in your calendar, call it collaboration
0:47:34 meeting.
0:47:40 If you want to say hi, team, every time you say team, you’re priming for team, right?
0:47:41 So those words really matter.
0:47:46 I’m kind of like a early bed kind of person.
0:47:46 Yeah.
0:47:47 No, I love that.
0:47:49 I’m not.
0:47:52 I like, I could be.
0:47:54 Like every night or just like the weekends?
0:47:56 I’m extremely extroverted.
0:47:57 So it’s like, absolutely.
0:47:58 Let’s go.
0:47:59 And then it’s like, I’m so tired.
0:48:00 Yeah.
0:48:03 I’m extroverted and introverted.
0:48:07 Like once I’m out, like I’m not, I’m probably not going home.
0:48:07 Yeah.
0:48:11 But then it’s like, I also love my like alone time.
0:48:12 I’m learning.
0:48:12 Okay.
0:48:13 So do you hear she’s using vocal fry?
0:48:16 When you use closed body language, it affects your voice.
0:48:21 So I vocal fry is when you’re like, I love going out and I kind of love, right?
0:48:24 So she started to go into a little bit of vocal fry here, which is not attractive.
0:48:26 We do not like vocal fry.
0:48:26 Why is she doing that?
0:48:28 I think she’s doing it because she’s so closed.
0:48:31 It’s very hard to get good vocal power when you’re that closed.
0:48:31 Right?
0:48:33 So you can hear it here.
0:48:33 Yeah.
0:48:35 Wake up and it’s next week.
0:48:35 Yeah.
0:48:36 What?
0:48:37 Yes.
0:48:38 Who did that?
0:48:42 But then it’s like, I also love my like alone time.
0:48:43 I’m learning to love it more.
0:48:44 Yeah.
0:48:46 We can still go get a drink if you want it.
0:48:50 If you’re not busy or go another day after your birthday.
0:48:50 Okay.
0:48:51 If you’re interested.
0:48:52 We can do that after my birthday.
0:48:53 Yeah.
0:48:54 Can I ask a question on that?
0:48:54 Yeah.
0:48:57 He seemed to bottle it there.
0:48:59 He said, we can go get a drink if you want to, if you’re interested.
0:49:01 Or we can go.
0:49:06 But I, it’s because she didn’t immediately be like, yeah.
0:49:07 Yeah.
0:49:09 No, I got a little angry after this date.
0:49:11 Tell me you’d love, you’d love to go out.
0:49:12 Yeah.
0:49:13 Just like.
0:49:16 No, I would love to go out when I get back.
0:49:16 Yeah.
0:49:17 Yeah.
0:49:18 Let’s make it happen.
0:49:21 It’s, that’s in about 45 days.
0:49:23 Because you’re going to Europe.
0:49:23 Yeah.
0:49:24 For 30 days.
0:49:25 Maybe something sooner.
0:49:27 Are you leaving, uh, like right on your birthday?
0:49:31 No, I’m leaving on the 21st, but that’s in 10 days.
0:49:34 And I haven’t finished booking the whole entire trip.
0:49:35 Yeah.
0:49:36 And you ought to run those numbers.
0:49:37 Yeah.
0:49:39 She rejected him.
0:49:45 I was real mad after this date because I asked her, are you attracted to him?
0:49:45 Yes.
0:49:46 Did you like him?
0:49:47 Yes.
0:49:48 Did you have fun?
0:49:49 Yes.
0:49:50 Would you like to go out with him again?
0:49:51 I’m real busy.
0:49:56 I was like, girl, we handed this guy to you on a silver platter.
0:49:57 He’s fun.
0:49:58 You’re attracted to him.
0:50:00 And you’re too busy.
0:50:02 Busyness is not a mark of success.
0:50:05 Busyness is going to prevent you from finding your person.
0:50:07 And this is a problem we have.
0:50:12 We’re so busy with our self-care rituals and our workouts and our work that we are missing
0:50:13 opportunities for connection.
0:50:18 And connection is the thing that’s going to make us healthy, happy, and live a long time.
0:50:21 We have to stop saying we’re too busy to connect with good people.
0:50:23 Was she actually too busy?
0:50:24 Like, or is she scared or something?
0:50:26 Because I just don’t understand that.
0:50:29 I literally think she thought she was too busy.
0:50:31 And I was like, get your priorities straight.
0:50:34 And so this is not even if you’re looking for your person.
0:50:35 I also see this with friendships.
0:50:38 Friends where we put our friendships last.
0:50:42 But actually, if we were having a hard moment or a health crisis, who do you want?
0:50:43 Your support system and your friends.
0:50:48 We have to start prioritizing the connections in our life, especially with good people.
0:50:53 And so it made me angry because I thought, this could be a great person for you.
0:50:58 Do you know what’s really wild is, had they met in a village 100 years ago, they’d be married.
0:50:59 Married.
0:50:59 Babies.
0:51:04 But I guarantee, if you hadn’t intervened in this situation, and this wasn’t,
0:51:07 if you weren’t sort of coercing them to like, to hang around with each other, they’d never
0:51:08 see each other again.
0:51:08 Yeah.
0:51:12 And I said, after, after the mics were off, I was like, go get him.
0:51:13 Girl, go get him.
0:51:14 And they did.
0:51:17 And they sat in the bar and they chatted for the entire hour.
0:51:19 And they walked out together.
0:51:20 Yeah, they left together.
0:51:20 I heard.
0:51:23 By the way, let’s get some DAOC babies.
0:51:24 Let’s get some babies.
0:51:26 I will be an officiant at the wedding.
0:51:27 We can do it together.
0:51:28 I imagine.
0:51:31 Imagine if they, but it’s so, I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately.
0:51:32 We were talking about it as a team.
0:51:36 I was saying, one of the issues I think people have these days is we just have too many options.
0:51:38 Too many choices.
0:51:38 Yeah.
0:51:39 So jam study.
0:51:40 Do you know the jam study?
0:51:40 Yeah.
0:51:40 Yeah.
0:51:42 You have, you know, 20 jams on a table.
0:51:43 Yeah.
0:51:45 People will pick none because there’s just too many.
0:51:46 When there’s only three, people buy more.
0:51:47 Yeah.
0:51:48 Very simple.
0:51:50 And this is going on in dating at the moment.
0:51:50 Do you know what it was?
0:51:55 A friend of mine, we were having a debate actually in the room over there a couple of
0:51:55 days ago.
0:51:58 And they were saying to me, I just need to meet more guys.
0:52:02 And I’m sat there thinking, your actual job is networking.
0:52:03 Like you get paid to meet people.
0:52:06 You know more people than anyone I know.
0:52:06 Yeah.
0:52:13 I could say right now, I could say to this person, I need a chiropractor in Las Vegas.
0:52:16 And this person should go, I know the guy.
0:52:16 Oh, wow.
0:52:20 So I was saying like, the issue might be that, you know, you have too many options.
0:52:21 Too much jam.
0:52:22 Too much jam.
0:52:23 Okay.
0:52:25 So too many choices is one.
0:52:30 But I also think like we’re so accidentally, we become so obsessed with our morning routine,
0:52:33 our evening routine, our rituals, our self-care.
0:52:37 Self-care wasn’t even a thing that we talked about when I was on social media 10 years ago.
0:52:39 So what happens is I see rigidity.
0:52:44 There’s a new rigidity happening for both men and women, but a lot of women too, where, oh,
0:52:48 I can’t go on that date because I have to do my morning routine.
0:52:52 I can’t do that thing because I have to get my workout in.
0:52:57 And I think that we are putting our connections in the last place when actually, if we want
0:53:00 to know what’s really good for our health and our longevity, it’s our relationships.
0:53:06 We get the most of the good chemicals, of the good, happy laughs and the endorphins with
0:53:07 other people.
0:53:08 And we keep putting it last.
0:53:12 You must meet people though that they’ve been on like a hundred dates and they tell you that
0:53:14 they just can’t find the person.
0:53:17 And you go a hundred dates, like a hundred years ago, you wouldn’t even know a hundred
0:53:17 people.
0:53:18 Yeah.
0:53:19 And you’d be happily married.
0:53:20 Yes.
0:53:20 Yes.
0:53:22 I also think our checklists are getting in the way.
0:53:23 Checklist.
0:53:26 So many single people I know, they’ll tell me they have a list.
0:53:28 They have a list of things that they really want.
0:53:34 I, when I met my husband, I did not have a list, but there was just a connection there.
0:53:38 And even though we were very different on paper, it just worked.
0:53:44 And so I think that when people have a checklist, it actually blinds them to seeing a connection
0:53:46 right in front of their face.
0:53:47 Yeah.
0:53:50 And she said to me, I don’t know if this is on camera or not, so hopefully it’s okay if
0:53:53 I share it, but she’s like, you know, I just, I don’t know if he’s as career oriented
0:53:55 as I was like, that’s really important to me.
0:54:00 And I knew that was on her list, on her list, on her internal list, career is right up top.
0:54:02 Now they didn’t even talk about career.
0:54:04 So I said, well, do you, did you even know what he does?
0:54:05 Well, no.
0:54:08 So she was judging him based on his personality.
0:54:08 That’s it.
0:54:11 And it didn’t check the list.
0:54:15 And so what can happen on these dates is they become very conversationally transactional.
0:54:16 What do you do?
0:54:17 Check.
0:54:18 Where are you from?
0:54:18 Mm, don’t know.
0:54:19 Check.
0:54:20 So you’re trying to get through a list.
0:54:20 You want kids?
0:54:21 Mm-hmm.
0:54:24 So these checklists, I think, are creating a lot of rigidity.
0:54:31 And then you add in the busyness, the busyness trap, which is, I’m so successful, I’m so busy.
0:54:32 Busy is not a mark of success.
0:54:43 Do you think there’s also an element that we’ve got more and more ambivalent with, if we, the more and more we date, the more it becomes transactional, the more we show up without passion or interest or curiosity?
0:54:47 I don’t know if that’s ambivalence.
0:54:51 I think that is numbness.
0:54:55 Like, people have gotten really attractive.
0:54:56 I don’t know if you’ve noticed this.
0:54:57 Yeah, they have.
0:55:00 My goodness, people are so pretty.
0:55:03 Like, I’m on Instagram and I’m like, how does everyone look so good?
0:55:07 Like, I didn’t really know anyone with an eight pack when I went to school.
0:55:08 Like, did you?
0:55:11 Like, no, no, because that wasn’t really a thing.
0:55:12 I’m, like, old, right?
0:55:13 Like, no one had that.
0:55:14 There was no social media.
0:55:18 So, like, people had, like, you know, normal looks.
0:55:21 Now people are extremely attractive.
0:55:29 So, I think that the bar has gone up so that we’re all, like, numb to how beautiful people are, how funny people are, how kind people are because we’ve been on a thousand dates.
0:55:33 Or the funniest, best thing they ever did is on their Instagram and we saw it.
0:55:37 So, anything else is like, eh, seen it.
0:55:40 Like, nothing is impressive anymore.
0:55:45 Like, I, there’s two challenges I recommend for people who are in, like, kind of a funk.
0:55:52 Like, if you’re in, like, a, you’re burnt out or you’re feeling lonely or you’re, like, things are not working, there’s two challenges you could consider.
0:55:55 The first one is really hard.
0:55:57 And it’s the no mirror challenge.
0:56:00 It’s you go 30 days without looking in a mirror.
0:56:07 Something really crazy happens when you cannot see yourself and see how good you look and see what you look like.
0:56:09 And it’s especially powerful for women.
0:56:10 I did it for 30 days.
0:56:13 And I went, you have to do all your normal things.
0:56:13 You have to go to meetings.
0:56:15 You have to go out.
0:56:16 Without looking in a mirror.
0:56:18 Which means you usually, you don’t wear makeup.
0:56:20 You know, you don’t do your hair.
0:56:21 You kind of just go out as you are.
0:56:23 First, you realize that people still like you.
0:56:25 Even if you don’t look perfect.
0:56:31 So, no mirror challenge can give you a lot of confidence and also can show you where your true relationships, your true friends are.
0:56:36 The second challenge is a social media or an online blackout challenge.
0:56:43 Which is, if you don’t have any dopamine from your phone, you have to go get dopamine and oxytocin from in-person relationships.
0:56:52 So, if you have a blackout where you cannot go on any social media or have any kind of interactions on your phone and you have to go out in person, you actually do.
0:56:57 Like, I remember when I used to travel for work and I’d get to a city and there was nothing to do.
0:56:59 Like, there was no phone in my hotel.
0:57:00 I did not have an iPad.
0:57:04 You could read a book or you could try to go out.
0:57:05 And that’s what I would do.
0:57:08 I would, like, get to a city and I’d be like, well, I have nothing to do in the hotel room.
0:57:09 There’s literally nothing to do.
0:57:13 I had my book or I could go to the hotel bar or I could go walk around the city.
0:57:17 And I met more people in that time of my life than I do now.
0:57:20 Even though I’m connected to more people than ever.
0:57:24 I was just thinking then about something someone said to me a couple of days ago, which links to what you’re saying.
0:57:35 Someone said to me that much of the cause of the incel culture is these young men spend lots of time playing video games.
0:57:38 And the video games gives them the sense of accomplishment, the sense of building.
0:57:41 It also gives them the, like, dopamine hit when you, like, win a sword or some coins or something.
0:57:45 And so I was just also thinking about that in the context of being, like, a workaholic.
0:57:55 Like, if I’m working all day, every day on a screen, which is what I do, when it comes to, like, going out and meeting people and networking, for me, it’s like hell.
0:57:57 And I’m wondering if there’s a link there.
0:58:04 I’m like, maybe if I wasn’t on the screen for, like, 12 hours a day, I’d have more dopamine left over to go speak to somebody.
0:58:07 Dopamine and also the energy flip wouldn’t be so massive.
0:58:12 The energy that you’re using on your computer is very much output, right?
0:58:16 Like, you’re putting your energy into your machine to create content of some kind.
0:58:18 When you go out, it’s a feedback.
0:58:19 It’s back and forth.
0:58:24 Having your brain switch from one to the next is very jarring.
0:58:29 And if you already get dopamine from your screen, what’s the motivation for going out in person?
0:58:30 There’s only downside.
0:58:34 My computer has never energized me, but these conversations always do.
0:58:35 Yeah, why would you go out?
0:58:37 You’re already having the best conversations you can do, and you’re in control.
0:58:39 And look, I don’t know.
0:58:40 Just saying.
0:58:42 I think you like control.
0:58:43 Do you think I like control?
0:58:46 In what context would you think I like control in?
0:58:51 The reason I bring up the control thing is if you are on social media, you are in complete control.
0:58:54 You decide how often you scroll.
0:58:55 You decide where you click.
0:58:56 You decide when you’re done with something.
0:58:57 You just exit their video.
0:59:01 Well, you know, in conversation, if I don’t like your answer, I can’t go off.
0:59:03 I can’t turn your volume down.
0:59:05 I can’t double click on your like.
0:59:07 I actually have to sit and listen to you.
0:59:13 And I think that, you know, if you’re in control of your conversations, and even like at this table, you are in control.
0:59:18 Like, I’m talking a lot, but like, you can interrupt me anytime you want, and I will answer whatever question you ask me.
0:59:26 And so I wonder, don’t be mad at me, if in like real conversation, like, I could ask you anything that I want.
0:59:31 Like, right now, I have a thousand questions for you, but I’m trying to not ask them of you.
0:59:32 Ask me the questions.
0:59:35 Well, I asked you the one about control, but you didn’t really answer.
0:59:37 You asked it back to me.
0:59:40 You don’t think you’re a control freak?
0:59:43 Probably.
0:59:44 Okay, thank you.
0:59:44 Yeah, probably.
0:59:49 It’s all context dependent, because when you said control freak, I was like, well, I don’t have any control in that part of my life.
0:59:50 That’s like a democracy.
0:59:53 But typically, in business, I think that I’m a control freak.
0:59:55 Yeah, that’s why he says well.
0:59:56 I think if you ask my team, I’d say, yeah, he’s a control freak.
0:59:57 So I would argue.
0:59:58 Am I a control freak?
0:59:58 Am I?
0:59:58 Yeah.
0:59:59 He’s laughing.
1:00:02 He was already laughing about it.
1:00:03 The answer for me?
1:00:04 No, I don’t.
1:00:06 Thank you, Jack.
1:00:07 You’re welcome.
1:00:08 I’m a control freak.
1:00:10 No, I am.
1:00:12 Yeah, so I think, look, I don’t know.
1:00:18 But my guess would be why you don’t want to go, you know, out with people is because you have to give up control.
1:00:23 And you have to be in a conversation where you might be asked something, it might be boring, or you don’t like it.
1:00:23 And like, why?
1:00:23 Why?
1:00:25 I do struggle.
1:00:29 I really struggle with, like, going to, like, networking events and stuff.
1:00:31 I really struggle with that stuff.
1:00:38 I don’t love a networking event, but I’ve found that if I have a very specific goal, it’s better.
1:00:42 So, like, for example, if I, like, I’m researching my next book.
1:00:44 I’m looking for conversational case studies.
1:00:50 So, if I’m going to the event and I’m like, okay, tonight I’m going to try a new question and see how it goes.
1:00:54 You know, I’m then, I’m like, okay, I have a purpose.
1:00:56 Or if I’m like, I’m going to practice some new jokes.
1:01:00 Or if I’m, like, I’m looking for a new, you know, business inspiration.
1:01:01 Like, that helps me.
1:01:03 So, I think no one really likes networking events.
1:01:05 But if you have a goal, it makes it a little bit better.
1:01:10 Just for a second, I want to talk about a company I’ve invested in and who sponsored this podcast called Zoe.
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1:02:11 We’re talking about business there.
1:02:18 If I want to communicate more effectively as a leader in business, are there any ways that I can become a little bit more?
1:02:22 I guess there’s different types of leaders that struggle with different things.
1:02:24 But how do great leaders communicate?
1:02:25 What do they do well?
1:02:26 Oh, this is my favorite topic.
1:02:37 As a leader, especially if you’re trying to get – meet people and new people especially, your – what do you do needs to be IMA who helps.
1:02:42 A lot of leaders struggle with building the right connections.
1:02:47 And so, they’ll be very either, like, intellectual with their answer, so, like – or very vague.
1:02:51 So, like, I’ve heard business leaders say, oh, you know, I run a tech company.
1:02:54 That is a dream killer for a conversation.
1:02:55 People don’t know what to do with that.
1:03:00 So, what you’re better off saying is, I have a tech company and we help aspiring cooks.
1:03:05 So, this kind of actually pulls us to another conversation you had in our fake date scenario.
1:03:06 Yeah.
1:03:12 If you click on the first link there with the gentleman whose name is –
1:03:12 Tim.
1:03:13 Tim.
1:03:14 Oh, yeah, Tim.
1:03:18 I found it really fascinating watching you help Tim introduce his profession.
1:03:19 I love Tim.
1:03:21 So, Tim is my person, okay?
1:03:22 Tim is my person.
1:03:24 Like, he – let me tell you about Tim.
1:03:28 So, Tim is a code monkey slash software engineer, which we’ll watch that video in a second.
1:03:29 He is highly technical.
1:03:30 He’s very kind.
1:03:32 He loves what he does.
1:03:40 And on the date, he was actually the only person of the four speed daters who showed warmth the entire time.
1:03:42 And I didn’t know.
1:03:44 I even said to Jack, I was like, I think he’s into her.
1:03:45 And I asked him afterwards.
1:03:46 I said, are you into her?
1:03:47 And he said, no.
1:03:56 And I was very impressed with him because he still showed warmth, congeniality, and kindness, even though he wasn’t physically into her.
1:03:58 And I was like, this is magic.
1:04:04 I also think that Tim came across as a little bit nervous and a little bit awkward.
1:04:11 And I was like, ooh, Tim, if we could just dial up your confidence and add that to your warmth, you are going to find your person.
1:04:12 And so, I love Tim.
1:04:14 We can watch his interaction.
1:04:17 The first clip of Tim there I thought was fascinating.
1:04:17 All right.
1:04:18 That one there, yeah.
1:04:18 Okay.
1:04:20 You’re going to have a great date.
1:04:23 First, can I help you out with some advice?
1:04:23 Yeah.
1:04:25 Okay, so ignore the cameras completely.
1:04:26 Okay.
1:04:28 You’re making great eye contact, which I love.
1:04:31 She’s probably going to ask you, what do you do?
1:04:32 Okay.
1:04:33 What is your answer to that question?
1:04:38 I am a code monkey or a software engineer.
1:04:38 Okay, cool.
1:04:43 So, anytime I meet a software engineer, it’s a good answer, but it’s a conversational dead end.
1:04:43 Yeah.
1:04:46 Because unless I’m a software engineer, I don’t know what to say.
1:04:49 So, I’m like, so what I want you to do is actually create a hook.
1:04:52 So, you’re going to say, so what kind of coding do you do?
1:04:55 I do a lot of back-end stuff.
1:04:57 That’s probably too much.
1:04:57 Nope.
1:04:58 Don’t even know what that is.
1:05:01 You have to think of a hook to give me so that you don’t have this.
1:05:02 What do you do?
1:05:03 Software engineer.
1:05:04 What do you do?
1:05:06 Teacher.
1:05:09 Because we have to have a, we can’t, you can’t say, I’m a software engineer.
1:05:10 Do you like art?
1:05:10 Yeah.
1:05:11 We can’t do that, right?
1:05:12 How long have you been doing it?
1:05:12 How about that?
1:05:16 I’ve been doing it for five to six years and been loving my team so far.
1:05:17 Ah, do you lead a team?
1:05:20 I hope to one day, but not right now.
1:05:21 But you love your team.
1:05:23 Okay, so I think that that could be your hook.
1:05:25 So, I think you could say, like, I’m a code monkey, a.k.a.
1:05:26 a software engineer.
1:05:30 The best part of my job is playing with code all day, but also, like, hanging out with my team.
1:05:31 Yes.
1:05:33 Then you’re giving me a lot of hooks that I can then say next.
1:05:35 Any body language questions for me?
1:05:36 Your body language looks great.
1:05:37 You’re making eye contact.
1:05:38 I love your visible hands.
1:05:40 You already watched my Steven interview.
1:05:41 Oh, sometime.
1:05:41 Okay.
1:05:43 Perfect.
1:05:44 So, I think it’s great.
1:05:45 Mutual laughing is really good, too.
1:05:46 It’s like, that’s great.
1:05:48 If you’re ever nervous, just laugh.
1:05:48 Okay.
1:05:49 It’s going to go really well.
1:05:49 Okay.
1:05:50 You got this.
1:05:56 Okay, so this is exactly what happens with highly competent folks, is they have an answer
1:05:58 to the question that’s just the answer.
1:06:00 That’s not how good conversation works.
1:06:05 Master communicators make it very easy for people to ask a follow-up question or to get
1:06:05 hooked in.
1:06:10 So, whatever your answer is as a leader, you want to give people enough hook to be able
1:06:13 to be like, oh, I want to know more about that.
1:06:15 Software engineer didn’t do that for Tim.
1:06:17 Now, her response to this question is terrible.
1:06:19 Terrible.
1:06:20 Did you see what happened in the date?
1:06:20 No.
1:06:21 Oh, my goodness.
1:06:24 So, what do you do?
1:06:24 Cheers.
1:06:25 Cheers to you as well.
1:06:31 I am an AI consultant and I make tech content.
1:06:33 Oh, okay.
1:06:34 Yes.
1:06:35 In the tech space.
1:06:36 In the tech space.
1:06:36 Yes.
1:06:36 Awesome.
1:06:37 What about you?
1:06:39 I am a code monkey.
1:06:41 Code monkey?
1:06:41 Yeah.
1:06:42 Oh, no.
1:06:43 No, software engineer.
1:06:44 No, I love my job.
1:06:45 Tell him something good.
1:06:46 Okay.
1:06:51 Yeah, we love code monkeys.
1:06:53 Yeah, no.
1:06:54 I used to be a code monkey.
1:06:55 No way.
1:06:55 Yeah.
1:06:56 You used to, um.
1:06:59 For like six years, seven, maybe.
1:07:00 Yeah.
1:07:01 Did you like it?
1:07:07 Um, I did, but I, okay, I thought I liked it and then I realized I didn’t.
1:07:08 No way.
1:07:08 Yeah.
1:07:12 It was like one of those things where after it’s over, you’re like, wait a second.
1:07:13 I wasn’t that happy.
1:07:16 Do you know, I have to say, I don’t think he should call himself a code monkey.
1:07:17 Yeah, it’s a bit, it’s.
1:07:18 Demeaning.
1:07:20 Yeah, and also people, people don’t know what it is really.
1:07:22 Like, I didn’t even really know what it was.
1:07:22 I was like, what?
1:07:25 But it sounds kind of, her reaction was telling.
1:07:26 She went, oh, no.
1:07:27 I know, no.
1:07:29 And so, so, so she says, oh, no.
1:07:33 So, first of all, I said to her afterwards, why did you do that?
1:07:36 If you disagree with someone, you can disagree with them, but then give them something
1:07:36 else.
1:07:37 So she was basically like, oh, no.
1:07:40 And then he’s like, yeah, I love what I do.
1:07:45 Yeah, but I think he has responsibility there because he shouldn’t describe himself as a
1:07:46 code, a monkey anything.
1:07:47 Yeah.
1:07:55 The minute you sound like you are a, like a involuntary, like slave to something against
1:07:56 your will.
1:07:56 Totally.
1:08:01 If I said I was a podcast monkey, you wouldn’t think, you wouldn’t think, oh, amazing.
1:08:01 I’m so happy for you.
1:08:02 Would you?
1:08:02 No.
1:08:04 I’d be like weird.
1:08:04 Exactly.
1:08:08 It’s the word monkey that they’re adding makes it seem painful.
1:08:09 I think you’re right.
1:08:10 He, he came up with a better answer.
1:08:14 And this is like, this is the takeaway for leaders is what question are you asked all
1:08:14 the time?
1:08:18 I know people in business are asked the same questions all the time, either networking
1:08:20 or in their business pitches.
1:08:24 I always think this when I watch Dragon’s Den or Shark Tank is like, you were, you knew this
1:08:25 question was coming.
1:08:27 You want to have a really, really good answer.
1:08:32 And so making sure that you’re ready for the answer and the more stories you can use, the
1:08:32 better, right?
1:08:35 Like, that’s why I’m like, I want you to start that note in your phone of all the stories
1:08:38 of all the different topics that come up, is it’s so important to have good answers with
1:08:39 those questions that you know are coming your way.
1:08:41 What’s a great answer then?
1:08:42 Give me an example of a great answer.
1:08:47 So if I’m the CEO of a media company, what’s a great answer?
1:08:48 If someone says, what’d you do?
1:08:48 Yeah.
1:08:49 I’m a CEO of a media company.
1:08:51 So you want to start with clarity.
1:08:53 So what is it exactly you do?
1:08:58 I don’t like people who have like these crazy, weird metaphors for like, right, right.
1:08:58 So tell them what you do.
1:09:02 I’m a CEO of a media company and, you know, we work with amazing clients like,
1:09:07 So tell me who’s the best client you worked for, the most interesting client you worked
1:09:08 for, what’s the most interesting project you worked for?
1:09:12 Like, tell me that story or tell me how you moonlight.
1:09:17 So if your job is boring, be like, oh, you know, I’m a CEO of a media company, but I garden
1:09:19 on my free time.
1:09:24 Like, like give me the side hustle so I can say, oh, what kind of media or tell me about
1:09:24 the gardening.
1:09:29 So give an interesting story about who it is you work for or give me a side hustle that’s
1:09:30 really interesting or passion.
1:09:37 And I heard you say that using the word because as a leader is important to getting people
1:09:37 to come with you.
1:09:39 Humans need reasons.
1:09:44 When there is a reason, even if it’s a silly reason, it helps us feel more motivated.
1:09:48 So it was a very, very silly study that was done that looked at this where they had people
1:09:53 go up to a copy machine in a library and ask, can I make copies?
1:09:56 Now, everyone who’s in the line for the copy machine has to make copies.
1:10:01 They found that people who went up to the line to cut the line and said, excuse me,
1:10:02 can I make some copies?
1:10:03 They got rejected.
1:10:05 They’re like, no, dude, get in the back of the line.
1:10:06 We’re all making copies.
1:10:09 But if someone said, excuse me, can I make copies?
1:10:11 I really have to copy this.
1:10:15 Like with a reason, people were more likely to let them cut, even though it was exactly
1:10:16 the same thing as the first thing.
1:10:20 The point of the study was to show that if you have a because, even if it’s a silly
1:10:23 because, people are more likely to do things for you.
1:10:28 I don’t love this idea, but I think the important point for us is you want to know your why.
1:10:31 That’s why I said, tell people who you help.
1:10:36 So if you’re a CEO of a media company, who you help is your most interesting client.
1:10:42 Or if you’re a life coach, don’t just say, I’m a life coach or I’m a consultant.
1:10:43 I’m a life coach.
1:10:46 I help women who really want to get their nutrition under control.
1:10:48 Then I know who you work for.
1:10:50 That’s your why, and that gives someone a reason.
1:10:53 Or, you know, I’d really love to work with you.
1:10:57 I think that I could really, really change your nutritional outlook and put you in more control
1:10:58 of your nutrition.
1:11:03 That because, even though it’s implied, even though I already heard it, it hooks someone
1:11:06 in to go, ah, if they have a why, I can buy into that why.
1:11:08 And I don’t think he did a very good job on that.
1:11:11 However, he was very warm with her, even though he wasn’t into it.
1:11:12 I thought that was very respectful.
1:11:15 How are either of them supposed to know if the other person is attracted to them?
1:11:16 Exactly.
1:11:19 This is why I’m doing what I’m doing.
1:11:26 The number one thing that is causing loneliness is we are withholding our liking, both with
1:11:27 friends and in romance.
1:11:33 With all of these daters, none of them, 0%, showed any kind of obvious liking.
1:11:36 How are we going to have babies?
1:11:38 How are we going to have marriages if we’re withholding our liking?
1:11:41 How are we going to have friends if we don’t know if someone likes us?
1:11:45 I think we should be going around showing, amplifying our likes to the people that we’re
1:11:45 with.
1:11:50 So how do I signal that I like someone, and how do I know if they like me?
1:11:53 Okay, so verbally, I think it’s very easy, right?
1:11:55 You can be very direct and be like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun.
1:12:04 If someone is interesting, funny, likable, fun, say in that moment, oh, this is so fun.
1:12:06 This is so interesting.
1:12:08 Being with you is always so interesting.
1:12:14 So that’s one way you can do it is affirming the adjective that you’re already feeling and
1:12:14 saying it out loud.
1:12:15 Right?
1:12:17 Like I think that Kendrick was very funny.
1:12:21 And I actually said to him in our like pre-interview, I was like, oh, you’re really funny.
1:12:23 That must be a double-edged sword.
1:12:24 He was the first guy.
1:12:24 The first guy.
1:12:25 Yeah.
1:12:26 I said, you’re really funny.
1:12:27 And that made him feel really good.
1:12:29 I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:12:30 And I was like, I think that’s good.
1:12:32 But also probably it’s harder to get depth.
1:12:33 He’s like, yes, that’s true.
1:12:37 So if someone is funny, interesting, delightful, a good confrontationalist, tell them.
1:12:38 That’s the first thing.
1:12:39 It’s like, don’t withhold that.
1:12:40 We don’t tell people, do we?
1:12:41 Never.
1:12:42 We don’t tell people.
1:12:45 I was just thinking about a meeting I had last week and I was thinking, God, if I’d started
1:12:50 that meeting just by telling the person what I thought of them, really positive thing, it
1:12:53 would have completely probably made them feel good.
1:12:53 Yes.
1:12:55 It goes back to your point about giving them serotonin or…
1:12:57 And it makes you more likable.
1:12:59 Like we like people who like us.
1:13:03 So the more obvious you are with your liking actually just makes you more likable.
1:13:07 So affirming them, making sure that they know that you were thinking of them.
1:13:08 So like, I was just thinking of you.
1:13:09 I was still looking forward to this.
1:13:10 I’ve been looking forward to this all day.
1:13:11 And then nonverbal liking.
1:13:17 So for men, vocalizations, hmm, ah, oh, we love those.
1:13:18 We love a triple nod.
1:13:19 We love a head tilt.
1:13:21 We love a lean.
1:13:22 All of those, see?
1:13:30 Oh, you know, there was something funny that I read recently, which is women list humor as
1:13:32 a number one trait they want in a man.
1:13:35 Men don’t care as much about humor in a woman.
1:13:38 They want a woman who laughs at their jokes.
1:13:40 Of course.
1:13:46 Which I thought this was so good and so helpful that for a man, yes, it’s good if you can work
1:13:48 on being funny because women do like it.
1:13:51 But if you’re a woman, you actually don’t have to be that funny.
1:13:52 You just have to be willing to laugh.
1:13:54 And that brings me back to liking.
1:14:01 Being an easy laugher, like being ready to laugh, is one of the most likable, complimentary things
1:14:02 you can do for someone else.
1:14:05 That was good.
1:14:06 Thank you.
1:14:07 I like it.
1:14:11 Is this real or not real?
1:14:12 We like it.
1:14:12 I like it.
1:14:14 You can’t even tell.
1:14:17 That’s a very believable laugh.
1:14:17 It was good.
1:14:21 There’s sometimes people will like withhold their laughing or like they’ll be like, oh,
1:14:21 that’s funny.
1:14:22 Right?
1:14:26 So being an easy laugher is also like the fastest way to tell someone, I like you.
1:14:28 When we laugh, we are absolutely showing we like someone.
1:14:30 So nonverbal and verbal liking is like very important.
1:14:31 What if you’re not funny?
1:14:35 Because a lot of people, we’ve sort of categorized ourselves as being a funny person or a not funny
1:14:35 person.
1:14:39 So is there a way, if you’re not funny, to be funny?
1:14:41 Yes.
1:14:44 And it’s being the best passenger ever.
1:14:48 If you’re not a joke teller, the joke teller is the driver, right, in a conversation.
1:14:49 They’re telling funny stories.
1:14:51 They’re telling funny anecdotes.
1:14:51 They’re very funny.
1:14:52 They’re driving.
1:14:56 Well, drivers need passengers to laugh at their jokes.
1:14:59 So you are going to be the best passenger ever.
1:15:00 You’re going to laugh at the joke.
1:15:02 You’re going to bang on the table.
1:15:03 I love table bangers.
1:15:06 You know, I have people in my life who are not very funny, but they love to bang on the
1:15:08 table when I tell a funny joke and that makes me feel so good.
1:15:09 They don’t need to be funny.
1:15:11 I’m happy to try, right?
1:15:16 So if you’re not funny, just be very good at hyping up other funny people.
1:15:18 You also could be a curator of funny.
1:15:20 You find the best funny GIFs.
1:15:21 You find the best funny clips.
1:15:23 You share the best funny posts.
1:15:26 Like, you don’t have to be funny to be a curator of funny.
1:15:30 Like, I have a friend who’s not that funny, but he has the best clips and memes that he
1:15:31 sends me.
1:15:34 And so I think of him as funny even though he’s never told a joke.
1:15:35 He’s just passing on other people’s funny.
1:15:36 Totally.
1:15:38 But it’s associated with him.
1:15:41 But that does make him funny because he knows how to select funny.
1:15:44 Because I’ve got a friend who sends, like, the worst GIFs.
1:15:45 But isn’t that funny?
1:15:46 Yeah, like, they’re never funny ones.
1:15:47 But doesn’t it make me laugh?
1:15:48 Bad GIFs.
1:15:50 What do you mean?
1:15:52 The GIFs are so strange.
1:15:53 Oh my God, what a sad soul.
1:15:54 I’ve got one friend.
1:15:55 My friend, Ash, who sends fire GIFs.
1:15:56 But I’ve got this other friend who I shan’t name.
1:15:58 Yeah, please don’t name him.
1:15:59 No, no, just in case everyone’s listening.
1:16:00 He literally sends not funny GIFs.
1:16:02 We’ve all got a friend that sends, like, the bad meme.
1:16:05 And they drop it in the chat and everyone’s like.
1:16:06 Thumbs up.
1:16:07 You know?
1:16:09 But, like, doesn’t it make you kind of laugh?
1:16:11 Don’t you love them for it?
1:16:11 I love them.
1:16:14 But I think, could they improve their meme game?
1:16:15 Yeah.
1:16:17 Like, I wouldn’t take the risk.
1:16:20 Especially if I hadn’t hit any fire emojis in a long time.
1:16:22 I wouldn’t be, by high conviction.
1:16:27 Okay, if that was them, if that was me, if I’m like, I’m not that funny, I can learn to be funny.
1:16:28 Do you think you can learn to be funny?
1:16:30 I think I have.
1:16:32 Like, I think I’ve learned to be a little bit funny with, like, my sense of humor.
1:16:34 I think I’m taking improv class.
1:16:36 Like, really, really taking improv class.
1:16:40 A lot of humor is just trying things and seeing if they land.
1:16:46 So if you’re not funny and you want to be and, like, something to go to work on, take an improv class and work on being funny on stage.
1:16:50 I also think you can study funny people and see how they make their jokes.
1:16:52 Like, and you can have the same jokes.
1:16:58 For example, I have a friend who, whenever he’s over at our house, and I say, babe, to my husband, he goes, yes.
1:16:59 And it’s always funny.
1:17:00 It’s always funny.
1:17:02 It’s the only joke he really makes.
1:17:03 But I love it.
1:17:07 And so I think you can also have, like, sort of jokes that you’ve figured out that you just use over and over again.
1:17:08 And touch.
1:17:10 Is that a cue of interest?
1:17:11 Yes.
1:17:12 I love touch.
1:17:19 But you have to be a little bit careful with it because if you do it inauthentically or awkwardly, it’s, like, a total fail and looks terribly, horribly wrong.
1:17:21 I love a high five.
1:17:23 Like, I love, like, oh, my gosh, that was great.
1:17:23 Yes.
1:17:25 Oh, my gosh, we’re both into that.
1:17:28 Like, I love, like, you’re making a funny face.
1:17:29 Only you can pull off high fives.
1:17:30 What?
1:17:39 Like, I don’t know whether this is a British thing or not, but if I started high fiving people in meetings, people would think I was very strange.
1:17:41 No, I think people would like it.
1:17:44 No, I think it’s, I think people have, like, a model of you.
1:17:45 Okay.
1:17:45 Okay.
1:17:50 And I think they understand, like, the upper limits of your enthusiasm when you’re excited, you know, your playfulness.
1:17:52 I think high fiving.
1:17:53 It’s outside your bubble.
1:17:54 Jemima.
1:17:55 Do you know Jemima out there?
1:17:55 Of course.
1:17:56 She could high five.
1:17:56 She could get away with it.
1:17:57 Of course.
1:17:57 Because that’s, like, in high five.
1:17:58 I think I have high fived Jemima.
1:17:59 There you go.
1:17:59 Yeah.
1:18:00 Okay, so, all right.
1:18:01 Find your thing.
1:18:02 You have a flavor.
1:18:02 Yeah.
1:18:03 Everyone has a flavor.
1:18:08 Your flavor is not high fiving, but it’s probably something else, like a dry sense of humor.
1:18:12 In fact, they did a study where they looked at worriers and not worriers, like neurotics and
1:18:12 not neurotics.
1:18:16 Neurotics are known for making self-deprecating jokes, and we like it about them.
1:18:21 Like, they’re constantly making fun of themselves, and we like it, whereas low neurotics, people
1:18:25 who are not worriers, who are, like, really confident, they love to make jokes about other
1:18:26 things, but never about themselves.
1:18:28 So, like, everyone has, like, their flavor, and that’s good.
1:18:29 You’ve got to find it.
1:18:31 And you should study people who are like you, right?
1:18:36 Like, there has to be – like, I love to watch, like, those talk shows, like, you know,
1:18:41 Jimmy Kimmel or whatever, and I pay attention to the interviews that have more than one laugh
1:18:42 every 30 seconds.
1:18:46 So, my goal on a keynote – like, I give a lot of keynotes for organizations – I try to have
1:18:48 a laugh every minute, if I can.
1:18:52 I think that if you have a laugh every minute, you’re considered funny, and that actually
1:18:54 opens up the brain to more learning.
1:18:58 So, on interviews, I pay attention to who are the interviews – what are the interviews
1:19:02 where they’re getting a laugh every 30 seconds – 30 to 60 seconds, and I’m paying attention
1:19:04 to how are they doing it.
1:19:06 And that is how I’ve learned to be funny.
1:19:09 Like, for example, like, a really easy one for humor I’ve learned is, like, if you have,
1:19:13 like, one, two, three things, and the third thing is weird, people almost always laugh.
1:19:17 So, if you’re like, oh, you know, Texas is great.
1:19:21 It’s the land of tacos, cowboy hats, and hot girls.
1:19:25 Like, if you make the third thing a weird one, people kind of like, ha, like, they think
1:19:26 it’s funny.
1:19:29 And so, like, if you – like, you can begin to play with those things if you learn.
1:19:32 But I’ve noticed that as a pattern, just, like, anecdotally by watching people.
1:19:35 So, I think that you could find someone who’s like you.
1:19:38 Like, you should find a British smart guy.
1:19:40 Who’s a British smart guy who’s funny?
1:19:41 Jack.
1:19:42 Jack’s smart.
1:19:43 Jack.
1:19:45 And just, like, see what kind of jokes they’re making.
1:19:46 I bet you those jokes will work for you, too.
1:19:47 They do.
1:19:48 Yeah, yeah.
1:19:49 I still like steal jokes from British smart people.
1:19:50 For sure.
1:19:50 So, like, I think that works.
1:19:53 I also think there was a study that was done about, like, charisma.
1:19:55 And we’re talking about master communicators, especially leaders.
1:19:57 I work with a lot of leaders.
1:20:02 And what I tell them is you can actually channel your role model that will completely change
1:20:02 your body language.
1:20:07 They asked presenters to present on stage, a little one-minute presentation, which, by the
1:20:09 way, very hard to do if you’re not a presenter.
1:20:11 So, they had them give a little presentation on stage.
1:20:16 And they took them off and they said, okay, now we want you to channel Steve Jobs and give
1:20:17 another presentation.
1:20:21 Now, don’t tell anyone what you’re doing, but just in your mind, just channel him.
1:20:23 When they got on stage, they were more charismatic.
1:20:25 They used more vocal variety.
1:20:25 They used more hand gestures.
1:20:26 They were more confident.
1:20:29 They spent almost double the amount of time on stage.
1:20:30 And they liked it more.
1:20:32 Simply by channeling Steve Jobs.
1:20:37 So, I share this because I think you don’t necessarily have to be funny or charismatic on
1:20:37 your own.
1:20:42 But if you’re channeling the most funny person you know, or the most charismatic person you
1:20:46 know, it can transform your vocal and nonverbal cues to be more like that person.
1:20:47 Micro expressions.
1:20:48 Yes.
1:20:49 Okay.
1:20:52 I feel like when I ask you a question, every question is your favorite question.
1:20:54 I have some that are not my favorites, but you haven’t asked them yet.
1:20:55 Okay, good.
1:20:55 Okay, good.
1:20:57 This is what got me into this work.
1:20:59 It was actually micro expressions.
1:21:07 So, there are many people, especially if you have narcissists in your life, who misinterpret
1:21:09 neutral expressions as negative.
1:21:14 So, one of the problems I had early on that caused me to be awkward is I thought everyone
1:21:14 hated me.
1:21:16 I thought everyone was angry at me.
1:21:17 So, I’d misinterpret the expression.
1:21:20 I would think they hate me, which made me even more awkward.
1:21:21 It was a very bad cycle.
1:21:25 So, one of the first things I discovered with this work where I was like, why doesn’t everyone
1:21:26 know this?
1:21:32 I was 20 years old and I stumbled upon this idea that some of our expressions are universal.
1:21:36 That across cultures and genders and races, we make the same facial expressions for the same
1:21:37 emotions.
1:21:42 Now, there’s some controversy about micro expressions and how universal they are, but there are seven
1:21:46 that we’ve found have a lot of universal applications.
1:21:48 And I would love to teach you those seven.
1:21:48 Please.
1:21:49 Okay.
1:21:51 Let’s actually start with fear.
1:21:54 So, fear is a universal response.
1:21:56 And when we make this face, it helps keep us safe.
1:21:59 It’s when we widen our eyes so our eyelids, our upper whites show.
1:22:03 We raise our eyebrows up and we usually open our mouth like that.
1:22:09 The reason why we make this face innately is because if we see a tiger, like back from caveman
1:22:16 days, our mouth opens, takes in oxygen, and opens in case we have to yell for help or run for our lives.
1:22:22 Our eyebrows and our eyelids lift up so we can take in as much of the space as possible.
1:22:24 The safest face I can make as a human is this one.
1:22:27 Right?
1:22:27 I can say anything.
1:22:28 I can take in oxygen.
1:22:29 I can see as much as possible.
1:22:33 That is why we make that expression when we feel fear.
1:22:40 When we see it, and you see it a lot in business environments, you are spotting, oh, I just tapped
1:22:42 into a little bit of nervousness.
1:22:44 And it typically happens around confusion.
1:22:50 So, I will sometimes be giving a presentation and I’ll notice someone will go, and I know
1:22:53 I just said something that they didn’t like or they made them nervous or that makes them
1:22:54 feel a little bit afraid.
1:22:56 And I can say, this makes sense.
1:22:57 Are we all good?
1:22:59 Let me rewind and re-explain that again.
1:23:01 So, I spot the fear and I immediately address it.
1:23:04 So, what you want to look for is those upper whites of someone’s eyes.
1:23:07 That’s how you know that someone just triggered, you triggered a little bit of nervousness in
1:23:07 them.
1:23:10 When you say upper whites of someone’s eyes, what do you mean?
1:23:11 I literally mean the upper whites up here.
1:23:12 So, not lower.
1:23:17 Like, when I’m afraid, my eyes peel up so you can see the upper whites of my eyes.
1:23:19 It’s very unnatural to do that, right?
1:23:20 Like, you would never do that normally.
1:23:22 We do that when we’re actually feeling afraid.
1:23:26 Now, I tend to raise my eyebrows up to show, like, a punctuation.
1:23:29 But this is, like, it’s a much bigger expression.
1:23:30 Yeah.
1:23:33 So, when you see it, make sure that you immediately address it so you calm that fear.
1:23:35 Okay.
1:23:36 So, fear is the first one.
1:23:38 The second one that I want to talk about is disgust.
1:23:41 So, disgust is a very negative emotion.
1:23:43 We make it when we don’t like something.
1:23:47 So, it’s when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of our teeth.
1:23:48 Ugh.
1:23:48 Yeah.
1:23:49 It’s a space.
1:23:55 We do it to inhibit our nasal passages, like when we smell something bad or taste something
1:23:55 bad.
1:24:00 But, interestingly, we also do this when we don’t like something we hear or see.
1:24:03 I see this a lot with lie detection.
1:24:05 So, we do a lot of lie detection research.
1:24:08 And I’ve noticed lying makes people feel dirty.
1:24:10 We do not like to lie.
1:24:15 And so, people will often lie as – they’ll make the disgust expression as they’re lying.
1:24:17 So, I’ll say, you know, so what do you think of the new guy?
1:24:20 Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, he’s pretty good.
1:24:23 And they hold this expression up.
1:24:28 Look for secret disgust if you ask someone a preference-based question.
1:24:33 If they are lying, they will often show disgust because they’re literally disgusted with themselves
1:24:35 for having to make that distinction.
1:24:37 So, it’s an inhibitor.
1:24:37 And you always want to look up here.
1:24:39 We don’t do that naturally, right?
1:24:40 We don’t do that naturally at all.
1:24:42 So, that’s a really good one to look out for.
1:24:46 Also, you can predict behavior better with disgust, right?
1:24:52 So, if you ask someone a question and they go, um, you know that they’re not in a good
1:24:54 headspace, that’s when you immediately want to give permission.
1:24:56 Hey, look, I’m on your side.
1:24:58 I’d rather just know what you really think.
1:25:04 I have prevented lies by giving someone full permission to just tell me the truth.
1:25:06 Yeah, I think I pull that sometimes when I don’t want to do something.
1:25:08 So, someone might say, do you want to go to this restaurant?
1:25:09 I go, ah.
1:25:10 Yeah.
1:25:14 And you don’t even realize you’re doing it because we make it accidentally.
1:25:17 It looks like a mulling, but actually, I’ve given away that I actually don’t want to go.
1:25:21 And why not be in relationships where we can say, hey, look, we’re good.
1:25:22 We don’t have to go to dinner.
1:25:22 Yeah.
1:25:23 Like, I’d much rather say that.
1:25:24 Okay, that’s disgust.
1:25:26 Anger is a really interesting one.
1:25:29 So, anger, they did computer-generated faces.
1:25:33 And they found that when you make the components of anger, it makes your face look stronger.
1:25:34 People perceive you as stronger.
1:25:39 So, the reason we make this from an evolutionary perspective is because when we are angry,
1:25:42 it makes us look physically strong, which makes sense before we get into a fight.
1:25:48 So, anger is when we usually tense our lids, we pinch our shoulders together, and we harden
1:25:48 our lips.
1:25:50 And we often jut our jaw out.
1:25:51 So, jut your jaw at me.
1:25:55 Like, before a fight, people often will be like, what’s up?
1:25:56 What’s up?
1:25:59 They jut their jaw out because it makes you look stronger.
1:26:01 It’s a way of, like, showing territorial gestures.
1:26:04 And we also tense our lips and tense our eyes.
1:26:05 This makes us see better.
1:26:07 So, right before a fight, you look confused.
1:26:08 Nikki, I’m sorry.
1:26:12 Okay, so, harden your lips.
1:26:13 Yep.
1:26:15 I thought I had a heart on my lips.
1:26:17 Oh, you actually did it perfectly just a second ago.
1:26:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:26:21 And then you see those vertical lines appear, and then tut your chin out at me.
1:26:22 Yeah.
1:26:24 That’s like, what are you doing?
1:26:25 I don’t like this.
1:26:28 And if you hold that expression, you’ll begin to feel angry and defensive.
1:26:29 Isn’t that weird?
1:26:30 Yeah.
1:26:31 So, it makes you look strong.
1:26:32 That’s why we make that face.
1:26:36 I always look out for, in the business environment, you don’t often see that full anger, right?
1:26:38 But you will often see a chin jut.
1:26:42 So, if I’m, like, in a meeting or I’m a team call, and I’m looking at it, someone goes,
1:26:44 Yeah.
1:26:47 I know that I’ve just made them a little bit angry.
1:26:50 Typically, in anger, people do two things.
1:26:53 They go on the offensive or the defensive.
1:26:54 I want to prevent either.
1:26:57 So, when someone’s angry, they go, it’s not my fault.
1:26:57 It’s your fault.
1:26:58 Offensive.
1:27:00 Or they go on the defensive.
1:27:00 Not my fault.
1:27:02 I don’t want that, right?
1:27:04 So, they’ll often attack or they get very defensive.
1:27:05 I want to disengage that completely.
1:27:08 So, I’ll say, hey, look, we are on the same page.
1:27:12 If you see someone in anger, you want to immediately go into shared mutual understanding, mutual goals.
1:27:14 Okay.
1:27:14 So, that’s anger.
1:27:17 And let’s talk about a good one, which is happiness.
1:27:20 So, happiness, we’ve talked about before, which is the only true expression of happiness
1:27:24 is when the happiness reaches all the way up into our upper cheek muscles, all the
1:27:24 way up here.
1:27:29 I know I’ve tried so hard with the smiling thing since we last met.
1:27:30 But it’s really not going well for me.
1:27:31 I know.
1:27:35 But when you are happy, like when you laughed earlier authentically, it does it automatically.
1:27:36 It already does it.
1:27:37 So, it’s this upper cheek muscles.
1:27:40 When we reach those upper cheek muscles, don’t fake smile.
1:27:41 I’d rather you real smile.
1:27:42 That looks good.
1:27:42 Does it actually?
1:27:43 Yeah, yeah.
1:27:43 That was good.
1:27:45 Oh, yes.
1:27:45 I like it.
1:27:48 I’m always on the lookout for fake smiles, right?
1:27:52 Like, especially in the work setting is if someone, especially in sales, I do a lot of sales
1:27:53 trainings.
1:27:56 If someone’s like, oh, yeah, I love this, but they don’t love it.
1:27:57 You’re not done selling.
1:27:58 Like, keep building rapport.
1:28:01 So, you’re looking for the absence of real happiness.
1:28:01 That’s what you really want.
1:28:03 And that’s really, you said it’s about this section.
1:28:05 Yeah, this section of your face.
1:28:06 So, this should go up.
1:28:07 All the way up.
1:28:07 Yes.
1:28:10 And you, remember, anyone can fake smile.
1:28:11 It’s all in your upper cheek muscles.
1:28:14 All in your upper cheek muscles.
1:28:14 Okay.
1:28:15 Here.
1:28:15 Yeah.
1:28:16 Like that.
1:28:18 That’s it.
1:28:23 That’s why you have to be careful with Botox because there’s a lot of, I could talk a lot
1:28:27 about Botox if you want to, but when people Botox their smile wrinkles, they actually feel
1:28:28 less happy.
1:28:35 So, there’s a feedback hypothesis of when you show an emotion, you actually begin to feel
1:28:35 the emotion.
1:28:41 So, people who have Botox their smile wrinkles can’t make a true happy face and actually feel
1:28:41 less happy.
1:28:43 It’s also the same with negative emotions.
1:28:47 So, if you Botox your anger, you’ll actually feel less angry.
1:28:52 They’ve started to use it for anger management, as if you Botox your anger muscles, you actually
1:28:53 are less volatile.
1:28:56 So, there’s all kinds of things that happen with our face when we begin to change it.
1:28:57 Damn.
1:28:59 Okay.
1:29:00 So, that’s anger.
1:29:01 Sadness.
1:29:01 Yeah.
1:29:04 Sadness is the most contagious of all the expressions.
1:29:07 So, sadness is the hardest one to fake.
1:29:08 It’s really hard to do.
1:29:13 So, the first thing is you pull your mouth down into a frown, and then you puff out your
1:29:17 lower lip, and then you pinch your eyes together and kind of droop your lids.
1:29:17 Uh-huh.
1:29:18 Uh-oh.
1:29:19 Made you yawn.
1:29:20 You know what’s funny?
1:29:23 Is if you make a sadness expression, it will either make you yawn or cry.
1:29:24 Are your eyes watering?
1:29:25 Yeah.
1:29:26 It worked.
1:29:27 I think the yawn made the eyes water.
1:29:29 But it’s all part of the same system.
1:29:30 Oh, right.
1:29:30 Isn’t that crazy?
1:29:31 It’s so funny, yeah.
1:29:32 Isn’t that weird how that happens?
1:29:32 Yeah.
1:29:35 So, you know you’ve made a good facial expression or a good sadness expression when you actually
1:29:36 begin to tear up.
1:29:41 They found that when babies want attention, they pout out their lower lip because we find
1:29:43 it quite cute, right?
1:29:45 When babies do that, we’re like, oh, we need to help you.
1:29:49 So it’s actually evolutionary that when we do that, it actually is a way that we get help.
1:29:55 So when I see that downward frown, you know, pull their mouth into a downward frown, I know
1:29:56 that something is going on for them.
1:29:59 And I’m careful with this at work especially.
1:30:03 It’s empathy, compassion, or space.
1:30:08 Like if someone’s going through something at work, you don’t always want to be like,
1:30:09 well, tell me about your divorce.
1:30:10 Go ahead and tell me about that.
1:30:10 No.
1:30:14 You might want to be like, look, if this is not a good time for a meeting, we can reschedule.
1:30:16 We don’t have to do this right now.
1:30:18 So I think that space is sometimes the best thing.
1:30:19 Or can I help?
1:30:21 But it’s hard to tell the difference.
1:30:22 It’s hard to tell.
1:30:24 So you’ve just got to ask.
1:30:25 Yeah.
1:30:28 And I think like that’s the mistake that people make when we’re coding emotions is they think
1:30:31 that they have to rely completely on their own reading.
1:30:32 No.
1:30:36 If you see an expression you don’t know what it means, be like, hey, all good.
1:30:37 Are you good?
1:30:38 You want to tell me anything?
1:30:43 Like asking for clarity no matter what the emotion is, whether it’s good or bad, it’s always good.
1:30:49 A little trick I also use, if you want to calm someone down and you’re not sure what’s bothering
1:30:52 them, name an emotion you think it is and have them correct you.
1:30:57 So I will often use the word upset because people will almost always correct you.
1:30:58 So I’ll say, are you upset?
1:30:59 No, I’m not upset.
1:31:00 I’m angry.
1:31:01 Oh, good.
1:31:02 Now we’re at least on the same page.
1:31:02 I know that you’re angry.
1:31:03 Interesting.
1:31:05 And that really works well.
1:31:07 Sometimes that winds people up a little bit.
1:31:08 Yeah, but at least you get the truth.
1:31:08 True.
1:31:09 It does start the conversation.
1:31:10 Yes.
1:31:12 And it gets you the truth of like, what are they actually feeling?
1:31:12 Okay.
1:31:13 We did those ones.
1:31:14 Contempt.
1:31:16 Contempt and surprise, I believe, are last.
1:31:18 So we’ll do contempt last.
1:31:19 Surprise is a very easy one.
1:31:23 It’s actually the longest of the micro expressions because we want to see it from far away.
1:31:26 So we just like go as wide as possible.
1:31:28 Surprise is not positive or negative.
1:31:31 The most important thing about surprise is the difference between surprise and fear.
1:31:32 Here’s why.
1:31:37 If I say to you, did you know about that email that was going to be sent out on Monday to the whole team?
1:31:40 Surprise, I had no idea.
1:31:43 Versus fear, I didn’t know.
1:31:49 So surprise versus fear is very important when you’re trying to gauge, does someone know something or not know something?
1:31:51 It works really well with kids and teenagers too.
1:31:52 Because they’re bad at hiding it.
1:31:54 They’re really bad at hiding it.
1:31:57 So like if you’re like, did you take my phone?
1:32:01 Probably not or probably did.
1:32:01 Right?
1:32:04 Like, you know, I think, did I tell you my favorite one with kids is also nodding.
1:32:07 Nodding cues work really well with kids and partners.
1:32:08 You didn’t hear it from me.
1:32:12 Where if we, when we nod yes in this culture, it means yes.
1:32:14 When you nod no, it means no horizontally.
1:32:20 With a kid, you can often be like, do you want to go to the playground or do you want to stay here?
1:32:27 Oftentimes they will pick the one that you associated with positive cues because they are reading your cues to figure out what the better choice is.
1:32:33 So oftentimes with my kids, I’ll be like, do you want to wear this shirt or do you want to wear that shirt?
1:32:36 And I’ll show disgust and they’re like, well, this one, obviously.
1:32:41 So you can also associate cues if you want to encourage someone to make a choice.
1:32:43 If you know that both choices are the same, right?
1:32:44 For kids, it works really well.
1:32:46 Okay, the last one is contempt.
1:32:51 Contempt is scorn, disdain, pessimism.
1:32:55 It’s a mark of superiority and that’s why it’s so dangerous.
1:33:02 When someone feels contemptuous, they’re often feeling better than you or they know better than you or they think better than you.
1:33:06 In marriages, it’s particularly damaging.
1:33:13 Dr. John Gottman found that when he observes silent videos of a couple,
1:33:19 he can predict with 93.6% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years,
1:33:22 if one member of the couple shows contempt towards the other.
1:33:27 That basically, if you’re in a relationship and someone is contemptuous of the other person,
1:33:31 so they show a one-sided mouth raise, contempt is a one-sided mouth raise or a smirk.
1:33:32 Yeah?
1:33:36 If they show that, it means they feel better than that person.
1:33:40 And if that is not addressed, it festers and it grows into disrespect and hatred.
1:33:46 So Gottman looks for contempt because he knows if someone in the couple feels contemptuous of the other person,
1:33:48 they feel better than that person.
1:33:50 And that is not an equal marriage.
1:33:52 Is that the only way that it comes out?
1:33:55 The smirk is the most reliable way that contempt can come out.
1:33:56 Okay.
1:33:56 Measurably.
1:33:57 Right?
1:33:57 Like…
1:33:58 What about the eye roll?
1:34:01 You know, an eye roll can be sort of silly.
1:34:03 But like, I could…
1:34:06 Like, contempt, no matter the context, is not good.
1:34:07 Right?
1:34:09 Like, if someone is like, I don’t think so.
1:34:11 You know they feel better than.
1:34:12 That’s never a good thing.
1:34:14 An eye roll, you could be like, oh, you’re being so silly.
1:34:15 Right?
1:34:20 So like, contempt is the one expression where, one, you don’t want to accidentally show it in your profile picture.
1:34:23 So never show an asymmetrical smile.
1:34:28 And two, if someone is showing you contempt, you have some rapport building to work on.
1:34:30 Now, you don’t know what that contempt is.
1:34:31 It could be about you.
1:34:32 It could be about a relationship.
1:34:34 It even could be about self-contempt.
1:34:35 Right?
1:34:37 But you want to immediately be like, what is going on?
1:34:39 What are you feeling?
1:34:40 What’s going through your mind?
1:34:41 What questions do you have for me?
1:34:45 To make sure you’re addressing whatever the reason for that contempt is so it doesn’t fester.
1:34:47 It builds, though, doesn’t it, with relationships?
1:34:47 It builds.
1:34:49 Do you think there’s any turning back?
1:34:53 Because people will think about the people they know in their lives.
1:34:56 And there’ll be some relationships where they’ve kind of built up contempt over time.
1:34:59 So the minute you see this person again, you’re already kind of on edge.
1:35:01 You’re probably already smirking, eye-rolling, whatever.
1:35:04 The only way, the only way is shared experience.
1:35:07 Talking more usually doesn’t get it.
1:35:08 Like, you can talk more.
1:35:13 But if you have shared experiences where you’re building oxytocin or you’re building adrenaline,
1:35:16 you’re doing something new together that scares you both a little bit,
1:35:18 it creates all kinds of chemical connections and bonds.
1:35:23 And that’s why sometimes when people go on, like, a couple’s retreat or a big couple’s trip,
1:35:24 it resets them.
1:35:26 It really resets them chemically.
1:35:30 If you are showing contempt, you might disrespect that person.
1:35:33 You have to go into shared activities where you can build respect back.
1:35:36 Can we change?
1:35:36 Can we?
1:35:43 I guess this is a question that a lot of people, well, it’s quite foundational to learning from you
1:35:46 and listening to you is this, like, deep belief that we can change who we are.
1:35:50 Because so many of us think that we’re kind of stuck in our personalities.
1:35:54 And that they are rigid and that they come from our trauma, our childhood, our genetics.
1:35:59 But as it relates to, like, my personality, I guess, what is a personality?
1:36:02 And can I change my personality?
1:36:04 Should I change my personality?
1:36:07 You can kind of change your personality.
1:36:09 That’s probably not the answer that you want.
1:36:11 But they’ve actually researched this.
1:36:16 And when you look at personality, it’s composed of five main traits known as ocean.
1:36:21 Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism.
1:36:28 Every person on the planet Earth has these five traits, and they fall on a spectrum, high, medium, or low.
1:36:32 These traits are somewhat heritable, somewhat genetic.
1:36:35 So there is a portion of our genetics we cannot change.
1:36:39 For example, personality traits are somewhere between 42% to 57% heritable,
1:36:43 meaning some of it is just literally our genes expressing themselves.
1:36:45 But that still gives us quite a bit of wiggle room.
1:36:51 What I like to focus on is if you are low on the spectrum in, let’s say, neuroticism, which is how you worry,
1:36:56 you cannot become low, you cannot become highly neurotic.
1:36:57 It’s too big of a swing.
1:37:00 But you could probably dial up to medium if you wanted to.
1:37:02 Or if you were high, you could probably dial down to medium.
1:37:06 So you have, let’s say, 30% to 40% potential for change.
1:37:10 So if you want to change your mindset, your goals, your personality,
1:37:17 you have about 30% to 40%, I think, freedom to grow or change in a way that you want to if you’re purposeful.
1:37:20 Can you give me the definition of those five?
1:37:20 Yes.
1:37:22 Okay, so openness.
1:37:27 Openness is how curious you are, how open to new experiences you are, how creative you are.
1:37:28 Highly open people.
1:37:30 And actually, I have your personality traits.
1:37:31 Uh-oh.
1:37:32 Are you ready to look at them?
1:37:33 I am.
1:37:34 Okay.
1:37:37 So you are highly open, the highest open you can be.
1:37:38 What does that mean?
1:37:40 Highly open means you love new things.
1:37:44 You love trying new things, experimenting with new things.
1:37:46 I think it’s why you’re willing to have new people in this setting.
1:37:49 Is you like having new questions.
1:37:51 You’re highly open people are extremely curious.
1:37:52 Okay.
1:37:55 The opposite is low open.
1:38:00 Low open folks love habit, tradition, routine.
1:38:01 Jack just said I was a control freak, though.
1:38:02 Yeah.
1:38:04 Control is not about openness.
1:38:04 Okay.
1:38:04 Right.
1:38:07 Like, you’re willing to move around the world.
1:38:08 You’re willing to meet a lot of new people.
1:38:11 Low open people want everything to be the same.
1:38:12 They don’t want to travel.
1:38:14 They don’t want to experience new things.
1:38:19 And the reason for this is actually they’ve found that highly open people have a certain
1:38:23 form of gene called DRD4, which means that when they experience something new, they get an
1:38:25 extra load of dopamine.
1:38:28 That is why extremely high open people are adrenaline junkies.
1:38:34 They seek really new experiences all the time because they want that dopamine hit.
1:38:37 They actually get more dopamine when they try new things.
1:38:40 Low open people have less dopamine for new experiences.
1:38:43 So they’re like, why would I go travel when I have my perfect setup right here?
1:38:48 They are, I think what’s really important about personality is there is no bad.
1:38:49 There’s no wrong.
1:38:54 We want diversity of personality because our high opens, they explore.
1:38:56 They’re the ones trying all the new things.
1:38:59 Our low opens honor our traditions and our rituals.
1:39:02 So in terms of finding a partner.
1:39:04 Very important.
1:39:09 If I were dating right now, I would probably make the dater take a personality test so we
1:39:10 could see if we’re matched.
1:39:13 I would literally, I put up this test for free.
1:39:16 So I have a personality test.
1:39:16 It is up for free.
1:39:22 I think every single person should take it, know your own personality, and also know your
1:39:23 best friend’s personality, your partner’s personality.
1:39:24 What would you be looking for?
1:39:25 Okay.
1:39:28 So I know what matches really well together.
1:39:30 A high open and a low open are going to have trouble.
1:39:31 Okay.
1:39:36 So someone who is spontaneous, wants to try new things, new experiences, versus someone
1:39:39 who just wants to sit at home and do the same old things, go to the same restaurant.
1:39:39 Yes.
1:39:41 So let’s talk about this very practically.
1:39:43 I know very quickly.
1:39:46 So yes, you can have, hopefully, have people take the test and then look at the results.
1:39:48 Like you can actually screenshot it and look.
1:39:52 If you’re not sure, ask someone, what do you usually do for lunch?
1:39:56 A high open will be like, oh, I love trying new places.
1:39:59 The new thing, they always order the special every time.
1:40:03 A low open person wants to go to the same restaurant with the same waiter, order the same meal,
1:40:05 and they would never try the special, why risk it?
1:40:07 Very different approach.
1:40:08 It’s the same thing.
1:40:12 So in a relationship, every single meal, they’re going to have a problem.
1:40:17 Like it’s really easy if you have the same level of approach to new experiences.
1:40:22 Entrepreneurs, as a leader, leaders, very good leaders, are typically higher in openness.
1:40:26 So it tracks for you that you’re high and open because you’re willing to try new things.
1:40:28 You’re willing to risk it for the biscuit.
1:40:30 You’re willing to say, okay, I’m going to risk this new idea to see if it’s going to work.
1:40:32 I love risking it for the biscuit.
1:40:32 I know.
1:40:34 And that’s because you’re driven towards more high dopamine.
1:40:41 However, high open entrepreneurs have shiny object syndrome where they are constantly chasing
1:40:42 new ideas.
1:40:42 No.
1:40:44 And it doesn’t always work.
1:40:45 No, not me.
1:40:46 Okay.
1:40:47 I’m joking, of course.
1:40:49 Because you do it, right?
1:40:50 Yes, exactly.
1:40:51 And that can be very distracting.
1:40:56 So if you are working with a high open leader, you are probably extremely frustrated.
1:40:58 They keep wanting to try new projects.
1:41:02 Do you think if I’m building a company, I should look for people that are equal in
1:41:03 openness to me?
1:41:04 Or should I look for counterbalances?
1:41:04 That’s it.
1:41:05 Okay.
1:41:06 Oh, God, they’re going to frustrate me.
1:41:08 They are going to frustrate you, but they’re going to keep you in check.
1:41:09 True.
1:41:09 Right?
1:41:13 Like, you should never have your CFO as a high open person.
1:41:13 True.
1:41:14 That’s very true.
1:41:15 That’s so interesting.
1:41:16 Right?
1:41:20 So like the best people, like diversity of hiring is so important in personality.
1:41:25 The mistake I see in corporate, because I do personality trainings for corporate, is managers
1:41:26 hire their same personality.
1:41:29 And they’re all having the same problems.
1:41:30 They can never have follow through.
1:41:32 And that brings me to conscientiousness.
1:41:33 Yeah.
1:41:36 Conscientiousness is where I think opposites attract.
1:41:37 This is where I think that works.
1:41:40 Conscientiousness is your approach to detail.
1:41:45 So it’s high conscientious people love, like I’m high conscientious.
1:41:47 I love alphabetizing.
1:41:48 I love color coding.
1:41:52 Office supplies make me so happy.
1:41:55 I love post-it notes and files.
1:41:58 I like purses with 15 different compartments.
1:41:59 Am I losing you?
1:42:00 Yeah.
1:42:00 You’ve lost me.
1:42:01 Okay, I’ve lost you.
1:42:02 Yeah.
1:42:03 Because you’re medium open.
1:42:03 Yeah.
1:42:05 I mean, sorry, you’re medium conscientious.
1:42:08 I mean, all the things you just described, I’m absolutely none of those things.
1:42:08 Right, because you’re medium.
1:42:11 But I like detail in work.
1:42:14 Like, I like work to be great and like us to care about details.
1:42:16 But I’m not like organized in the way that you described.
1:42:16 Right.
1:42:18 And also, you’re not doing all the details.
1:42:18 No.
1:42:19 Right.
1:42:23 You have a team doing the really difficult details of the research or the editing because
1:42:26 you can do it, but you’re not super, super conscientious.
1:42:28 I’m super, super high conscientious.
1:42:29 So I love the details.
1:42:31 I have a color-coded calendar for my family, for example.
1:42:33 I’m the only one who looks at it.
1:42:33 I wish I was more like that.
1:42:38 So highly successful people typically are more conscientious.
1:42:41 And this is what we have to remember is they’ve studied this.
1:42:45 Two low conscientious people in a marriage have more financial problems.
1:42:45 Yes.
1:42:52 So unfortunately, this is one where high conscientiousness can help you a lot in marriage,
1:42:54 with finances, in business.
1:42:55 But medium is okay.
1:43:00 So if you’re low, you can work on dialing up your conscientiousness with tools, with training,
1:43:01 with habits books.
1:43:03 That’s why habits books are always on the bestseller list.
1:43:07 It’s because all the low conscientious and medium conscientious people in the world know,
1:43:09 oh, if I want to be successful, I just have to get more habits.
1:43:15 By the way, on the first date with Ashley and Kendrick, Ashley said that she had a spreadsheet
1:43:17 for how she spends her days.
1:43:20 And he was like, whoa, a spreadsheet?
1:43:24 And she showed in that answer that she was super high conscientious.
1:43:28 That is really good to know in a new relationship is someone’s high or low conscientious.
1:43:32 A high conscientious person, they will never be late, but they get very mad if you’re late.
1:43:36 So it’s really good to know the conscientiousness of your team and of your partner so you can
1:43:37 better predict their behavior.
1:43:40 Is there an element of neurodivergence here as well?
1:43:42 Because I’m thinking if someone has ADHD or…
1:43:45 Yes, I think that they’re actively studying this now.
1:43:50 I think neurodivergence, neurodiversity, there is personality trends with that.
1:43:53 I don’t know exactly what they are yet, but I know that they’re looking at how does the
1:43:56 neurodivergent community deal with conscientiousness or openness?
1:44:01 I know that also, for example, neurodivergent folks have a different chemical response to
1:44:01 even eye contact.
1:44:05 So like I talk about eye contact a lot, but I have to be very aware for my neurodivergent
1:44:07 community, eye contact is harder for them.
1:44:11 And that is because when they’re connecting, they want to be processing and thinking.
1:44:14 So it’s much harder, more distracting for them if they’re making eye contact.
1:44:20 So there’s a lot of ways in which they are having a different response to an interaction
1:44:20 or a connection.
1:44:23 Okay, extroversion.
1:44:24 So this is the one that, this is the cool kid.
1:44:28 I call it the cool kid of personality is that everyone talks about extroverts and introverts,
1:44:31 but actually ambiverts are much more interesting to me.
1:44:32 And most people are ambiverts.
1:44:35 They fall somewhere in between extrovert and introvert.
1:44:37 Introverts get energy from being alone.
1:44:40 Extroverts get energy from being with others.
1:44:44 Ambiverts can dial up into extroverted energy, but they need a lot of recharge time.
1:44:48 Like I slept like 11 hours last night in preparation for this interview, right?
1:44:52 Like I knew that it was going to be a lot of intense like interaction time.
1:44:57 So I want to like a lot of flat laying in bedtime because I’m ambivert leaning towards introverts.
1:45:01 I get energy from the right people, but I can’t do a lot of socializing.
1:45:03 Are you like this off camera?
1:45:07 Like if I asked your husband what you’re like when, if I said to your husband, do an impression
1:45:09 of Vanessa, show me what that impression would look like.
1:45:10 Vanessa at home.
1:45:11 It’d be this, but weirder.
1:45:15 Like I’m like, I’m like a weird person at home, but it would be totally like this,
1:45:18 but bigger because at home I’m really comfortable.
1:45:19 Like I’m a silly mom.
1:45:21 Like with my girls, like I’m dressing like a dinosaur.
1:45:23 I’m doing dance routines.
1:45:25 Like I’m very silly at home.
1:45:27 He would probably say bigger if you were to ask him.
1:45:28 Bigger?
1:45:28 Yeah.
1:45:29 Like more animated.
1:45:30 You’re more animated.
1:45:31 Oh my gosh.
1:45:32 Do you think I’m that animated?
1:45:34 I thought you were pretty animated.
1:45:35 Oh my gosh.
1:45:37 I’m even more animated probably at home.
1:45:38 Really?
1:45:38 Yeah.
1:45:39 Cause I’m even more comfortable.
1:45:40 Okay.
1:45:41 I’m putting on plays with my girls.
1:45:43 Like I’ll, I’ll do the whole Frozen soundtrack.
1:45:46 I wouldn’t do that for you here, but at home I would.
1:45:49 How many episodes we’ve got to do before you do the Frozen soundtrack?
1:45:49 A billion.
1:45:50 Okay.
1:45:53 No one will be with us if we do a billion episodes.
1:45:53 Okay.
1:45:55 So extroversion is important.
1:45:58 Now this happened on the date as well is he said, I’m a super extrovert.
1:46:01 And she said, oh, I don’t go out that much.
1:46:03 This can also be an issue in a relationship.
1:46:07 If someone is super extroverted, they need lots of people time versus someone who is
1:46:08 very introverted.
1:46:09 They don’t want the people time.
1:46:12 That is constant tension in a relationship.
1:46:20 You also have roles in a company where I’ll notice that people will hire for a role where
1:46:21 the role requires extroverting.
1:46:25 For example, if you’re in sales, you cannot be introverted.
1:46:28 It’s very hard to be introverted because you’re having a cold call.
1:46:29 You’ll have to schmooze and build rapport.
1:46:31 You have to enjoy those networking events.
1:46:36 So it’s important to factor in what is the ideal personality for this role.
1:46:40 So for example, I have roles in my company where I actually don’t want an extrovert.
1:46:42 Like I don’t want to chit chat.
1:46:43 I don’t want you socializing.
1:46:47 Like I want you to be super high conscientious and really direct.
1:46:54 We’ve had this where I’ve had a role where I had to let someone go because she wanted to
1:46:55 chat too much.
1:46:59 And I was like, I can’t.
1:47:00 I can’t chat.
1:47:02 I don’t, I don’t have capacity to chat.
1:47:06 I just like, let’s, let’s work right side by side, but don’t talk to me.
1:47:07 Kind of not really.
1:47:08 Do you know what I mean?
1:47:09 You know what I mean?
1:47:13 Where like, I, I knew that our team wasn’t extroverted enough for her.
1:47:17 And so you want to really be careful about hiring a role for your personality.
1:47:18 So extroverts.
1:47:18 Okay.
1:47:18 Interesting.
1:47:21 And by the way, um, the best leaders are high extroverts.
1:47:23 I found this.
1:47:24 High extroverts.
1:47:25 Yeah.
1:47:26 What am I?
1:47:27 You’re middle.
1:47:28 Two stars out of three.
1:47:28 Yeah, middle.
1:47:29 Middle.
1:47:30 Makes sense.
1:47:34 Like I think that if you were out schmoozing more, it might help your business, but might
1:47:35 not, might be distracting to you.
1:47:36 Hmm.
1:47:38 But that’s what the research says.
1:47:42 I think if I was more extroverted, I would be a better, better leader.
1:47:45 I think my business would be more successful because I think I’d be, you’d find it easier
1:47:47 to form new relationships and, you know.
1:47:50 And we could dial that up for you, but you couldn’t completely change, right?
1:47:53 Like we could dial up your extroversion, but it would take a lot of energy.
1:47:56 That’s the thing is we have, we can change anything we want, but you probably can only
1:47:57 change it at 30 to 40%.
1:47:59 It’s going to take a lot of energy.
1:48:01 And yet the question is like, do you want to do that?
1:48:01 Okay.
1:48:02 Agreeableness.
1:48:04 Agreeableness is the hardest one to get.
1:48:08 The agreeableness is your approach to teamwork.
1:48:14 Highly agreeable people want everyone to like them and typically say yes to everything.
1:48:15 They’re agreeable.
1:48:19 So the problem with agreeable people on a team is you ask them for something and they’re
1:48:19 like, oh sure, yes.
1:48:21 Oh yeah, I know those people.
1:48:22 But they shouldn’t say yes.
1:48:22 Yeah.
1:48:28 And that is because they so want to be liked and they so struggle with people pleasing and
1:48:28 boundaries.
1:48:31 They don’t have enough value in their own boundaries.
1:48:34 They’ll say yes to anything, but then they can’t really do it.
1:48:37 You have to be careful with a highly agreeable person because they often overcommit.
1:48:38 Yeah.
1:48:41 I tend to find someone that’s very agreeable.
1:48:46 They, especially in the context of business where you’re trying to figure out what the
1:48:46 correct answer is.
1:48:49 So you have a problem and you’re trying to pass out what the correct answer is.
1:48:54 You never end up going to them because they will say either what they think you want to
1:48:56 hear or they’ll just take whatever your idea was.
1:48:58 You never get good feedback from an agreeable person.
1:48:58 Exactly.
1:48:59 Never get honesty.
1:49:01 Yes, because they can’t.
1:49:04 I have trouble with highly agreeable people as friends.
1:49:07 And that’s because they’ll often, I’ll be like, hey, do you want to go to this concert
1:49:08 in two weeks?
1:49:09 Oh yeah.
1:49:10 And they cancel on me last minute.
1:49:11 Always.
1:49:12 Oh yeah.
1:49:15 Because in their minds, like maybe, but probably not, but they’re afraid to tell me.
1:49:18 You don’t want your CFO to be agreeable.
1:49:18 No.
1:49:21 Now, let’s talk about low agreeableness.
1:49:24 Low agreeableness, those folks default to no.
1:49:26 They are highly skeptical.
1:49:30 They don’t usually want, they will not do something for getting along.
1:49:34 And because they default to no, they typically can be dream killers.
1:49:35 Yeah.
1:49:38 So if you’re in a pitch or a presentation, they’re like, nah, it’ll never work.
1:49:40 Nah, it’ll never work.
1:49:44 Or you know you’re with a highly, a low agreeable person if they Google fact check everything
1:49:45 you say.
1:49:47 Now, you have to know when to leverage them.
1:49:50 Like I know when to leverage my low agreeable people.
1:49:51 I know when I want to go to them.
1:49:53 Like my husband can be very low agreeable.
1:49:57 In fact, leaders are often low agreeable because they can’t say yes to everything.
1:49:59 They have to be willing to say no.
1:50:00 They have to be willing to have people be angry at them.
1:50:05 So I know when I go to my husband for an idea, I have to be ready, ready for the dream killing
1:50:07 because he’s going to be hard on me.
1:50:07 And that’s good.
1:50:09 The last one.
1:50:11 My favorite, neuroticism.
1:50:14 Neuroticism is how you approach worry.
1:50:16 So you’re a medium.
1:50:19 A high neurotic is a worrier.
1:50:19 This is me.
1:50:26 High neurotics believe that worrying is an investment in failure prevention.
1:50:26 Yeah.
1:50:29 We worry to protect ourselves.
1:50:31 And here’s what’s really important to know.
1:50:33 Low neurotics are very emotionally stable.
1:50:35 They usually don’t worry.
1:50:38 They say things like, don’t worry about it or it’ll all work out.
1:50:43 They do that because they actually have a different chemical response to negative events.
1:50:48 What they found is that high neurotics, like me, we carry the short form of the serotonin
1:50:49 transporter gene.
1:50:52 Serotonin makes us feel calm.
1:50:54 It makes us feel like everything’s going to be okay.
1:50:58 High neurotics, we produce less serotonin more slowly.
1:51:01 So if something bad happens to me, let’s say I get a bad email.
1:51:03 My adrenaline shoots up.
1:51:04 My cortisol shoots up.
1:51:05 I begin to worry.
1:51:10 My body is slow to respond with the serotonin that will say, it’s okay.
1:51:11 It’ll be okay.
1:51:14 So I literally have a negative response for longer.
1:51:16 That is why we worry.
1:51:20 High neurotics chemically feel things worse than low neurotics.
1:51:24 So in a relationship, low neurotics are like, why are you worrying about this?
1:51:26 You can’t do anything about it anyway.
1:51:30 And the high neurotic is like, because if it happens, it will feel very bad.
1:51:32 And my serotonin hasn’t kicked in yet.
1:51:33 So my husband is low neurotic.
1:51:34 I’m high neurotic.
1:51:36 This is a great match.
1:51:39 Is there a gender stereotype here?
1:51:39 Yes.
1:51:43 So women are typically higher in neuroticism and higher in agreeableness.
1:51:45 So they’ve actually studied the difference between genders.
1:51:49 Women are higher in neuroticism and agreeableness than men.
1:51:51 Men are also typically higher in extroversion.
1:51:53 So women are typically higher in worrying.
1:51:54 Yes.
1:51:55 And yes, people.
1:51:56 And people pleasing.
1:51:57 Yes.
1:52:01 And men are typically lower in worrying and less likely to care about people pleasing.
1:52:03 And more extroverted by nature, typically.
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1:53:04 So if I’m sat listening to this conversation right now, and I’m sat next to somebody, and I’m like, I think they might be a narcissist.
1:53:05 Oh, no.
1:53:08 And I’ll turn to them now.
1:53:13 So if you’re sat next to somebody who thinks a narcissist, just turn to them and say, hey, we should do this personality test on Vanessa’s website.
1:53:18 What score on the personality test would I be looking for to spot a narcissist?
1:53:19 Oh, goodness.
1:53:20 What would it look like?
1:53:23 Okay, so narcissists tend to be higher in extroversion.
1:53:27 They typically love to be around people because it feeds their narcissism.
1:53:30 Again, that does not mean that all extroverts are narcissists.
1:53:33 I don’t know about conscientiousness.
1:53:34 I don’t know if that correlates.
1:53:41 Typically, narcissists are lower in agreeableness because they believe in themselves so much that they don’t – they’re like, I don’t need people to agree with me.
1:53:42 I’m totally great by myself.
1:53:46 Typically, they’re lower in neuroticism because they don’t worry.
1:53:48 They’re like, everyone likes me.
1:53:48 I’m so great.
1:53:50 Why should I be worried?
1:53:51 And I don’t know about openness.
1:53:58 So luckily, whatever their answer is, you don’t have to be too worried, but you do want to have a conversation that goes like this.
1:54:04 I see that you’re really low in neuroticism, which means you don’t worry about things.
1:54:06 When has that served you?
1:54:07 And when has that not served you?
1:54:13 The most important thing about personality is, first, analyzing yourself, knowing where you fall.
1:54:16 Second is analyzing someone else.
1:54:16 How do they fit with you?
1:54:20 And the last step is do you optimize or compromise?
1:54:22 A narcissist will not compromise with you.
1:54:27 So you’ll find out if they’re a narcissist, if as you talk about the compromises, they won’t.
1:54:32 When they talk about how they’re neurotic, they never had a problem with it.
1:54:33 Oh, their agreeableness?
1:54:34 It’s always been great.
1:54:35 Oh, their extroversion?
1:54:36 They’re perfect.
1:54:37 Their conscientiousness?
1:54:38 They do everything right.
1:54:39 They’ve never made a mistake.
1:54:40 Their openness?
1:54:41 Their way is the better way.
1:54:45 A narcissist typically believes their personality traits are perfect.
1:54:46 Typically.
1:54:48 So it’s actually not their score.
1:54:50 It’s how they relate to the score.
1:54:50 Interesting.
1:54:52 That should be a red flag.
1:54:56 And you said at the start of the conversation, certain personality traits correlate with longevity.
1:54:57 Yes.
1:54:58 They’ve studied this.
1:55:02 So you want to guess which personality traits live the longest?
1:55:06 Well, I’d say if you’re high conscientious, then you’re going to live pretty long.
1:55:06 Number one.
1:55:08 Because you’re not going to take many risks.
1:55:08 You’re not going to fuck up.
1:55:09 But there’s a close second.
1:55:09 Health.
1:55:15 So high conscientious people are very good at habits, exercising, brushing teeth, taking their medication.
1:55:17 And there’s one more that correlates to longevity.
1:55:20 I’m going to say high extroversion.
1:55:21 There is.
1:55:21 Because you make more friends.
1:55:22 That’s it.
1:55:23 You have a partner.
1:55:24 That’s it.
1:55:26 So if you are a high extrovert, you have a support system.
1:55:28 You invest in your support system.
1:55:32 And you’re getting a constant dose of oxytocin and serotonin, which makes you feel so good,
1:55:35 which makes you feel belonging, which means you seek out people when needed help.
1:55:36 So who do you want advice?
1:55:37 Extroverts live longer?
1:55:38 Yeah.
1:55:41 Extroverts and high conscious people live longer.
1:55:43 You want to know who lives the shortest?
1:55:44 Can you guess?
1:55:46 You tell me.
1:55:50 The people who live the shortest, who have the lowest lifespan, are high neurotics.
1:55:52 We worry ourselves to death.
1:55:56 We have more chronic stress, more anxiety, and more depression.
1:55:58 So neurotics have an issue.
1:55:59 And this is me.
1:56:02 We have a problem with our serotonin, right?
1:56:03 Serotonin is very complicated.
1:56:05 We’re doing a lot of research on this.
1:56:11 If I don’t produce as much serotonin, and I produce it more slowly, I’m having far more
1:56:13 negative experiences than the same person in the room.
1:56:19 If I’m in a car, and we almost get in a car accident, and I’m the high neurotic, that
1:56:20 affects me all day long.
1:56:23 I’m like jittery and jumpy all day.
1:56:24 And people are like, what are you talking about?
1:56:25 We didn’t even get in an accident.
1:56:29 It’s because their serotonin kicked in right away, began producing, and they’re like, oh,
1:56:29 we’re good.
1:56:32 Whereas mine is like a slow, faltering car.
1:56:33 It’s like…
1:56:34 I know people like that.
1:56:35 I feel sorry for them.
1:56:36 Exactly.
1:56:37 And they don’t live as long.
1:56:43 So I am working very, very hard in my life to, one, dial up my extroversion to have a
1:56:47 really strong support system, because I know that supports me both mentally and longevity
1:56:48 wise.
1:56:54 But I’m also working on how to curb my neuroticism, to dial down my worry, to know that it’s not
1:56:55 an investment in worry prevention.
1:56:59 Worrying more does not prevent bad things from happening, but having resilience does.
1:57:01 What about optimism and pessimism?
1:57:05 You know, optimism is not a part of the personality spectrum.
1:57:10 However, high neurotics tend to be more pessimistic, right?
1:57:14 So the more you worry, the more you think bad things will happen.
1:57:16 Did you hear about that study?
1:57:21 A study in 2015, where they looked at the blood test results of extroverts found that they had
1:57:24 stronger immune responses than introverts.
1:57:26 Doesn’t that make so much sense?
1:57:29 So extroverts, there’s a lot of things happening for extroverts.
1:57:32 One is they’re exposing themselves to lots of different immune systems.
1:57:36 So they’re getting more antibodies by exposing themselves to lots of different
1:57:36 immune systems.
1:57:39 But two, when they’re with people, they’re happier.
1:57:44 If you’re an introvert and you’re with someone and you’re unhappy and stressed, your cortisol
1:57:45 is up.
1:57:46 Your adrenaline is up.
1:57:47 You’re not having as good of a time.
1:57:51 Whereas an extrovert is getting all this energy, getting all this dopamine, which is fueling
1:57:53 them, which is making them feel better, which makes them stronger.
1:57:59 I was reading about something a couple of years ago as well that showed that if you have stronger
1:58:01 social connections, it’s like an insulator of stress.
1:58:02 Yes.
1:58:06 So then if you’re lonely and you experience stress, you physiologically feel it worse.
1:58:07 It’s stress insurance.
1:58:08 Yeah.
1:58:12 Like investing in your friendships, the reason why I talk about it so much, it is stress insurance.
1:58:17 And by the way, lifelong singles, they can predict lifelong singles.
1:58:21 So lifelong singles, typically low in openness.
1:58:22 Which means?
1:58:24 They don’t want to try new things.
1:58:25 They don’t want to go to new places.
1:58:26 They don’t want to go to new restaurants.
1:58:29 They won’t go out and meet new people because they’re low in openness.
1:58:30 Low in extroversion.
1:58:32 So they don’t get energy from being around people.
1:58:34 And they’re low in contentiousness.
1:58:35 They can’t even plan it.
1:58:40 That is the trifecta of you’re going to have a hard time meeting your friends, meeting your
1:58:43 people because you don’t get energy from people.
1:58:44 You’re not open to meeting new people.
1:58:48 And you cannot have follow through with trying to get the habit to get those new people.
1:58:53 This episode is really important for those people because it means, A, you’re not alone.
1:58:55 There’s other people who have this.
1:58:57 Two, it could be your genetics at work.
1:59:01 I think that sometimes people get like down on themselves for it.
1:59:03 I’m like, look, like, it could be how you’re wired.
1:59:07 You’re not set up right to be getting energy from people.
1:59:09 Okay, we have to work on that.
1:59:11 That means we have to find the right people in the right situation.
1:59:14 So if I have that person, I have a lot of lifelong singles who are my students.
1:59:16 I say, okay, we can do this.
1:59:17 We can do this.
1:59:19 Okay, you don’t get energy from people.
1:59:20 You’re a low extrovert.
1:59:21 Where do you get energy?
1:59:22 Knitting.
1:59:22 Okay.
1:59:23 Books.
1:59:24 Great.
1:59:25 Hiking.
1:59:25 Great.
1:59:26 Extreme sports.
1:59:27 Great.
1:59:29 That’s where I want you to hang out.
1:59:32 I want you to get energy from the activity, not the people.
1:59:35 So that way you’re getting all this good stuff from the activity.
1:59:37 Meeting people becomes a side effect.
1:59:40 And it’s easier to be extroverted, to fight with that extroversion, because you’re like,
1:59:41 oh, they’re doing the same activity.
1:59:43 And you don’t even have to be high open.
1:59:48 Because if you love that extreme sport, go to the same place every week at the same time,
1:59:49 but do it all over the city.
1:59:53 That way, the first time is going to be hard, but it’s a ritual.
1:59:54 It’s a habit.
1:59:57 And then whoever is coming in new, that’s your app.
1:59:59 That’s your game people.
2:00:00 So there’s ways to do this.
2:00:01 You just have to invest a little bit in it.
2:00:06 I truly believe that lifelong singles can find their person.
2:00:08 They just have to be looking in the right ways.
2:00:12 Is it important for me to know someone else’s personality type when I meet them?
2:00:15 When you first meet them, you don’t have to know their personality right away.
2:00:20 However, they’ve found that you can tell many of the personality traits from a handshake.
2:00:22 From a handshake.
2:00:24 So like, if we handshake…
2:00:26 I’m like overthinking it now.
2:00:28 He like didn’t shake my hand.
2:00:30 I was like overthinking it because I was going to do…
2:00:31 What are you going to do?
2:00:32 Don’t do anything crazy.
2:00:33 Okay, okay.
2:00:34 Like pretend that we just met.
2:00:35 Just pretend.
2:00:35 Pretend.
2:00:37 Oh, it’s so good to meet you.
2:00:40 Okay, so extroverts shake firmer.
2:00:42 I usually do this as well.
2:00:42 So sometimes I do this.
2:00:43 Very good.
2:00:45 And that’s typically a mark of extroversion.
2:00:47 So like that speaks to like a little bit higher on the scale.
2:00:53 We tell out from a handshake of the firmness, of the length, of the amount of pumps that happen.
2:00:59 All of those things are informing that sort of like our brains like figuring out someone’s personality.
2:01:02 So you can actually pay attention to what your instinct is.
2:01:03 It’s probably right.
2:01:05 They’ve even found the weirdest…
2:01:06 This is like the weirdest.
2:01:09 They did a study where they observed people shaking hands.
2:01:15 And they filmed them and found that in that minute after shaking hands, almost everyone touched their nose or their face.
2:01:23 And they found that their nasal dilation increased, meaning when we shake someone’s hand, we’re kind of smelling their hand.
2:01:25 Like I smell you.
2:01:26 It’s so weird.
2:01:27 It’s so weird.
2:01:28 But that’s what we’re doing.
2:01:32 It’s because we’re sussing out something about their personality.
2:01:35 So there’s a lot, I think, under the surface that we don’t even realize is happening.
2:01:40 Like I swear that when I shake a nervous person’s hand and I smell my hand, I get a little bit nervous.
2:01:41 Really?
2:01:41 Yes.
2:01:44 Like I don’t like to be around nervous people because they like trigger my own nervousness.
2:01:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:01:46 Weirdest thing ever.
2:01:47 That’s a really interesting thing.
2:01:49 Like you get a vibe off people when you meet them.
2:01:50 The vibe is real.
2:01:51 Yeah, it’s so real, isn’t it?
2:01:52 That’s that first impression.
2:01:53 That vibe is so real.
2:01:59 Yes, that’s why I encourage people to not go to places where they’re uncomfortable because people will pick up on that vibe.
2:02:01 Like go places where you thrive.
2:02:06 Like go to the activities, do the things that you actually like because that’s going to come across, it’s going to affect your vibe.
2:02:07 This is so true.
2:02:10 I did something the other night actually with the team.
2:02:11 Do you remember that thing we did the other night?
2:02:12 I probably shouldn’t say it.
2:02:14 But I went to a place which I’m like really uncomfortable in.
2:02:15 Oh, why’d you do that?
2:02:17 Because they told me I had to go.
2:02:18 Yeah.
2:02:19 But you didn’t like it.
2:02:21 I hated every minute of it.
2:02:21 Right.
2:02:22 And your vibe was for sure off.
2:02:24 And I looked at myself in the photos after.
2:02:26 I was like fucking hell, you’re having a terrible time.
2:02:27 Yeah.
2:02:28 You really don’t want to be like.
2:02:29 You cannot hide it.
2:02:30 It’s like my little thing.
2:02:32 You’re like terrified.
2:02:32 Yeah.
2:02:33 You’re probably like really afraid.
2:02:36 So I think that like energy curation is important here.
2:02:37 Yeah, it’s so important.
2:02:38 You can’t fake it very easily, can you?
2:02:41 And I don’t think we should try to fake it, right?
2:02:44 Like I would much rather you set yourself up for success and say no to the things that don’t work for you.
2:02:48 And there’s one way that I kind of understand what I think about a person is my vibe.
2:02:50 Because it’s so interesting doing this podcast.
2:02:52 I’ve met hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people.
2:02:58 And within the first five seconds, I can feel them.
2:02:58 Yes.
2:03:03 And I don’t know how to explain it other than, it’s almost funny because I sit in my little room doing my research.
2:03:05 And then I’ll come out, I walk around the corner.
2:03:15 And within like three to five seconds, I know whether we’re good to go and we’re ready and we’re calm or if there’s something off.
2:03:15 Yes.
2:03:16 Yeah.
2:03:17 That is real.
2:03:18 There’s something off.
2:03:19 That is real.
2:03:27 So when you feel that anywhere, on a date, with someone you’re hiring, on a team, you should trust that feeling.
2:03:30 Because it is something that we cannot, we have not explained with science yet.
2:03:31 It’s pheromones.
2:03:32 It’s the shape of your face.
2:03:34 It’s the feeling of your hand and mine.
2:03:39 It’s, there is something happening chemically, physically, and you should trust it.
2:03:42 Like, have you ever been led astray from that?
2:03:47 We have a closing tradition, as you know, on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they’re leaving it for.
2:03:57 And the question that’s been left for you is, what are you doing on a daily basis to improve the life of someone else?
2:04:00 And how can you serve others better?
2:04:01 Hmm.
2:04:05 This is weird.
2:04:06 Of course.
2:04:07 Of course it is.
2:04:11 I knew I wanted to write books.
2:04:13 I actually think of myself as a writer.
2:04:15 I want to be, I wanted to be a writer.
2:04:16 I’ve always wanted to be a writer.
2:04:22 When I started to be a writer in 2007, social media did not exist.
2:04:29 Your job as a writer back then was to write books, and maybe if you were lucky, you had a three-month book tour.
2:04:33 To be totally honest with you, I did not know I was signing up for this.
2:04:36 I did not.
2:04:48 If you had told me that being a writer would mean sharing videos of my home and my personal life every day, I probably wouldn’t have done it.
2:04:49 I don’t love that part of my job.
2:04:51 I don’t love that part of my job, to be honest with you.
2:04:59 And so I know, though, that I have to share on video every day, every day, right?
2:05:00 To be able to get people to read my books.
2:05:01 Which part of it don’t you like?
2:05:03 All of it.
2:05:04 I mean, all of it.
2:05:05 Which part do you hate the most?
2:05:10 Trying to synthesize something very complicated into 60 seconds.
2:05:13 I don’t like it.
2:05:20 I think communication is very complex, but I know it’s essential to boil down a tip into a hook and then a framework.
2:05:22 And I don’t love that.
2:05:31 And so when my career started to change, like I was writing books, and then it was like, oh, it’s, you know, 20% of your job is marketing.
2:05:33 Now 30% of your job is marketing.
2:05:34 Now 50% of your job is marketing.
2:05:40 Now writing books is six months of writing, and the rest of your life is marketing.
2:05:43 I did not sign up for that.
2:05:51 So I get up every day and I post videos on my stories and on my social media, and I do that to serve.
2:05:52 I do not do that because I like it.
2:05:56 And if I could skip it, I would, but I can’t.
2:05:57 And it’s how I’m able to write books.
2:05:58 And so that is how I serve.
2:06:06 Vanessa, you are an extremely rare force in this art form.
2:06:07 Thank you.
2:06:07 You really are.
2:06:13 It’s so funny on the podcast when I love the conversation I have with somebody.
2:06:20 And I walk away with it feeling like I need to watch it back again and take notes because there’s so many new concepts that feel so valuable to me.
2:06:22 But then to see the way that the world reacted to you.
2:06:23 Oh my gosh.
2:06:24 It was incredible.
2:06:25 It was like unbelievable.
2:06:26 It was insane.
2:06:30 I feel like I met like 8 million new best friends.
2:06:31 That’s kind of what it felt like.
2:06:34 I mean, as of now, I think the video is like 8 million.
2:06:35 I don’t even, that doesn’t even count audio.
2:06:38 It’s the most downloaded audio episode we’ve ever had of all time.
2:06:42 So it means that’s probably another 6 or 7 million people or something.
2:06:45 And it really did feel like I found my people.
2:06:58 Like, I felt like literally it was like finding 8 million new friends where I met 8 million recovering awkward, trying to connect, trying to figure it out, people who are like learners.
2:07:00 And we were just flooded with love.
2:07:05 And it re-energized everything that I do because I was like, I have got to help everyone.
2:07:07 Like, I have got to be more helpful.
2:07:09 And so, like, it was just such a gift.
2:07:14 Like, thank you for giving me the space and asking the questions because I just have met the most amazing people.
2:07:16 You deserve it.
2:07:16 Oh.
2:07:17 It’s a special gift.
2:07:18 Thanks.
2:07:22 It’s blown my mind how desperate and hungry people are for this information.
2:07:23 Yes.
2:07:25 Vanessa, thank you so much for being here again.
2:07:26 I really appreciate you.
2:07:28 And thank you for the, you had a profound impact on our show.
2:07:31 You brought millions of new people to our show that had never listened before.
2:07:32 So we owe you tremendously.
2:07:33 And thank you for what you’re doing.
2:07:34 You’re a very unique person.
2:07:38 You have all the right balance of, like, wisdom, articulation.
2:07:41 You’re challenging, but in the best possible way.
2:07:54 So, and you’re weird and you know you are and you own it, which makes it admirable, endearing and a force for change because so many other people out there are struggling to step into their own sort of weird, authentic selves.
2:07:57 Vanessa, thank you so much for being so generous with your time.
2:07:57 It’s wonderful to see you again.
2:07:58 Thank you.
2:08:11 Thank you for the gazillions of people that stopped me in the streets and in the gyms and everywhere I went and sent me messages and just, like, overwhelmed me with this, like, wave of appreciation because of that episode and shared it with their friends like crazy.
2:08:12 Thank you on behalf of all of them too.
2:08:13 Please keep doing what you’re doing, okay?
2:08:14 Yeah, I will.
2:08:15 Thank you.
2:08:18 The hardest conversations are often the ones we avoid.
2:08:21 But what if you had the right question to start them with?
2:08:26 Every single guest on the Diary of a CEO has left behind a question in this diary.
2:08:30 And it’s a question designed to challenge, to connect and to go deeper with the next guest.
2:08:33 And these are all the questions that I have here in my hand.
2:08:38 On one side, you’ve got the question that was asked, the name of the person who wrote it.
2:08:45 And on the other side, if you scan that, you can watch the person who came after who answered it.
2:08:50 51 questions split across three different levels, the warm-up level, the open-up level, and the deep level.
2:08:53 So you decide how deep the conversation goes.
2:09:01 And people play these conversation cards in boardrooms at work, in bedrooms, alone at night, and on first dates, and everywhere in between.
2:09:04 I’ll put a link to the conversation cards in the description below.
2:09:06 You can get yours at thediary.com