0:00:02 By the way, it’s noon on a Monday.
0:00:04 Where are you right now?
0:00:07 I actually skipped class to do this podcast.
0:00:09 Let’s go.
0:00:12 Sorry, Miss Bickerstaff.
0:00:13 The boys are calling.
0:00:29 Okay, this kid right here on the screen is making $20 million as a high schooler.
0:00:32 The high schooler that is making $20 million a year in revenue.
0:00:34 That is absurd.
0:00:35 Zach, welcome to the show, man.
0:00:39 I think this is actually the make everybody else feel bad.
0:00:43 When you find out that like a 17, 18-year-old kid is making $20 million in high school,
0:00:45 I think a lot of people’s initial reaction is wow.
0:00:47 And another group is like, oh, man.
0:00:50 How much of that per year is profit, Zach?
0:00:53 It’s more than 30%.
0:00:54 All right.
0:00:55 Impressive.
0:00:56 Very good.
0:00:57 Ballin’.
0:00:58 We’re going to tell the story.
0:01:01 If I figure out how it’s going, Sam, do we need to address your Letterman jacket?
0:01:02 Are you just in the high school mood?
0:01:03 What’s going on?
0:01:08 Look, I found out that Zach was coming on and I wanted to look the part, you know?
0:01:09 Like, what’s that movie, Sean?
0:01:12 It’s like Never Been Kissed where they pretended that they’re in high school.
0:01:15 Or 21 Jump Street.
0:01:16 Yeah.
0:01:16 That’s us.
0:01:20 Like, this is actually the second group of high schoolers that we spoke with over the
0:01:21 last two weeks.
0:01:22 I’m Jonah Hill.
0:01:27 All right, Zach, dude, welcome to the show.
0:01:29 You’ve listened to the podcast before, I understand?
0:01:30 Yeah.
0:01:31 Last two years.
0:01:36 Would you say we maybe inspired you slash were the sole cause of your success?
0:01:39 Yeah, I’d say this is the sole reason for any of it.
0:01:41 All right, so let’s explain.
0:01:46 Start with what your app does, because it’s like, what app is making $20 million for a high
0:01:47 schooler?
0:01:48 So let’s explain, what is your app?
0:01:49 Yes.
0:01:50 And when did you start it?
0:01:51 Let’s start with that.
0:02:00 So Cal AI is the app, and it lets you take a picture of any meal and get back the calories,
0:02:02 proteins, fats, and carbs to track it.
0:02:07 So think any other calorie tracking app, but then heavy AI features involved.
0:02:09 Does it work really well?
0:02:10 That sounds like a really hard thing.
0:02:16 Like, you know, you were literally 12 years old, or maybe eight years old when Silicon Valley
0:02:21 the TV show came out, and that was like, the joke was like, is this a hot dog or not?
0:02:24 Now the app says a lot more.
0:02:28 You know, does that work really well, or is it like mostly right?
0:02:35 So the scanning is about 90% accurate on average, which is really good when you look at the data
0:02:37 for FDA nutrition labels.
0:02:40 They can be up to 20% inaccurate.
0:02:42 So it’s actually really good there.
0:02:45 But we only recommend that you use it.
0:02:49 Well, if you’re training for Mr. Olympia, let’s say, we don’t recommend you use our AI
0:02:50 calorie tracker.
0:02:53 You could use the food database, weigh your food on the scale.
0:02:56 Well, and the scale stuff, like I, you know, I’m a weirdo.
0:03:00 I’ve actually used MyFitnessPal for probably five years, almost every day now.
0:03:01 Yeah.
0:03:05 And what a lot of people don’t realize is when they eyeball their calories, they’re probably
0:03:07 always off by like 30 or 40%.
0:03:08 Have you tried tracking your food, Sean?
0:03:09 Yeah.
0:03:13 Actually, I think I came on this podcast a while back and I said this exact problem.
0:03:18 I was like, MyFitnessPal, it’s so slow and annoying to type in every single thing and estimate the
0:03:19 weight of it.
0:03:21 So, okay, I’m eating this.
0:03:21 How many grams of it?
0:03:22 I don’t really know.
0:03:23 I didn’t weigh it out.
0:03:28 And then you get this calorie thing, but also they have like five entries for whatever,
0:03:30 for chicken breast.
0:03:32 You don’t know which one to pick.
0:03:37 And I remember even saying, I think on this podcast, like, I wish somebody just had it where
0:03:40 you could just take a picture and computer vision would just know.
0:03:42 And I can’t wait for that to happen.
0:03:44 And it sounds like it’s kind of happened.
0:03:47 So you started this how long ago?
0:03:48 10 months ago.
0:03:51 10 months.
0:03:51 Okay.
0:03:53 So 10 months ago, you started this as a 17 year old.
0:03:56 And can you just give us a sense of the growth?
0:03:59 So in 10 months, you started obviously with zero.
0:04:02 First month, roughly, where were you at?
0:04:05 So the first month, it was a little bit slow to pick up.
0:04:11 We probably ended having done $30,000 in revenue the second month.
0:04:13 And that’s when we were testing the waters.
0:04:16 Do people actually want a calorie tracking app?
0:04:19 The hypothesis was that, yeah, it would make people’s lives easier.
0:04:27 But we are almost hitting this interesting intersection between people are very hardcore with tracking
0:04:32 their calories, weighing their food on a scale, needing the precision decimal point accuracy.
0:04:36 And then on the other end of people that don’t track their calories at all.
0:04:39 So our hypothesis was that there was a middle ground.
0:04:43 And that’s where we threw the capital to test.
0:04:44 And it worked.
0:04:50 So then the next month, which was June, we did our first six figures in a month.
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0:05:27 So, okay, amazing.
0:05:28 Yeah, I mean, you’re saying we.
0:05:30 Does he talk like every 16 year old?
0:05:32 You’ve sounded like this, right, Sean?
0:05:34 He sounds more mature than us.
0:05:36 So you’re saying we.
0:05:38 Is there a we?
0:05:40 Who’s the, is it a royal we?
0:05:41 Like, it’s just kind of me.
0:05:43 And then did you start this with somebody?
0:05:45 Yes, I have three co-founders.
0:05:47 So to give you a breakdown,
0:05:49 one is also in high school.
0:05:53 He’s our CTO, Henry Langmack, a killer engineer.
0:05:55 Child technology officer.
0:05:56 Yes, go.
0:06:01 Blake Anderson, who I think you guys actually did an episode
0:06:03 about one of his apps, UMax.
0:06:06 So he had found previously two other apps
0:06:07 that had gotten a few million downloads.
0:06:09 So we partnered up.
0:06:10 How’d you guys meet each other?
0:06:12 Because you’re not in the same high school.
0:06:13 How’d you find these other young builders?
0:06:17 Yeah, so Henry and I met at a coding camp
0:06:18 when we were both 10 years old.
0:06:21 He lived in Long Island initially,
0:06:22 but then he moved to New Jersey.
0:06:23 So we stayed in touch.
0:06:26 Blake, I actually found on Twitter.
0:06:28 Gotcha.
0:06:29 So you guys get together.
0:06:30 And who has the idea for the app?
0:06:35 So it was a mix of Blake and myself.
0:06:39 I was tracking my calories two years before starting Cal AI
0:06:42 on MyFitnessPal, or at least trying to.
0:06:44 I was really skinny growing up.
0:06:47 And I wanted to put on weight, put on muscle,
0:06:49 honestly, to impress girls in my high school.
0:06:52 And it was super tedious.
0:06:53 So I just gave up.
0:06:55 But I knew there had to be a better solution.
0:06:57 The coder in me, the engineer in me,
0:06:59 knew that there must be an easier way.
0:07:01 And the following two years,
0:07:03 all of these AI models started being released.
0:07:06 And so after jumping into the app space
0:07:08 and talking to Blake,
0:07:11 who had a very similar path of these AI apps,
0:07:12 we came to this idea.
0:07:15 And having a $20 million a year business
0:07:16 is a lot cooler, I bet,
0:07:19 than having muscles when it comes to impressing girls.
0:07:20 Yeah, which one works better?
0:07:24 Honestly, I thought that once,
0:07:25 I always had this vision as a kid
0:07:27 that I just need to be successful
0:07:29 and all the girls will be on top of me all the time,
0:07:31 but nothing really changed.
0:07:33 It’s just dudes like us?
0:07:34 Yeah, exactly.
0:07:37 You know, honestly, dude, having big muscles,
0:07:39 it’s also just only dudes admiring you.
0:07:42 We’re actually still not sure
0:07:44 what gets the women to like you.
0:07:46 We’re still trying to figure that out.
0:07:49 Can we pull up, you posted a video,
0:07:51 back when you were,
0:07:52 how old was he in this video?
0:07:53 That was three years ago, I think.
0:07:55 Three years ago.
0:07:57 So you’re like, what, 14, 15 years old.
0:07:59 The video is titled,
0:08:02 How I’m Gonna Make $1 Million in High School.
0:08:03 Pull this up,
0:08:05 because I want to get your reaction to this.
0:08:06 It starts, by the way,
0:08:07 it just starts with like-
0:08:07 It’s a great video.
0:08:09 It’s an amazing video.
0:08:10 How many views does this video have?
0:08:11 I can’t see from the-
0:08:11 Like 8,000.
0:08:13 Okay, 7,000 views.
0:08:14 Three years ago, you posted this.
0:08:16 You only have 1,000 subscribers on YouTube.
0:08:18 I say only.
0:08:19 I mean, I just mean like,
0:08:21 this video is criminally underrated.
0:08:22 At the time,
0:08:24 that’s 20 subscribers when I posted this.
0:08:26 So you could play this.
0:08:27 I don’t know if the audio will come through.
0:08:32 I’m going to make $1 million
0:08:34 before graduating high school,
0:08:35 and this YouTube channel
0:08:37 is going to document the whole process.
0:08:38 Here comes the best part.
0:08:38 The mic-
0:08:42 The alignment of the text,
0:08:43 and then watch the microwave.
0:08:45 What is $1 million?
0:08:48 It’s enough cash to give you a luxury lifestyle.
0:08:51 It makes life more enjoyable and stress-free.
0:08:52 It’s every kid’s dream.
0:08:53 Wow.
0:08:54 Director’s cut.
0:08:58 Making $1 million can be broken down.
0:08:59 For example,
0:09:01 if you’re trying to make it in a year,
0:09:03 it’s just $80,000 a month,
0:09:06 or $20,000 a week,
0:09:08 or $3,000 a day.
0:09:10 All I would need to do
0:09:12 is sell $30,000 $100 items
0:09:13 every single day.
0:09:14 All right, you can pause it, Ari.
0:09:16 I’m really making it more simple than it seems.
0:09:17 I love this video.
0:09:18 I love this video.
0:09:20 On so many levels, it’s insane.
0:09:21 I love that you’re shooting your shot.
0:09:23 You’re calling your shot, I should say.
0:09:23 Right?
0:09:25 This is Babe Ruth pointing at center field.
0:09:26 So I love that you called your shot.
0:09:29 I love that you were just having fun with it.
0:09:31 You obviously weren’t super polished
0:09:33 or going back and editing this
0:09:34 to try to make it fancy.
0:09:36 And I love that your mindset,
0:09:37 you were like,
0:09:38 I want to do this,
0:09:40 and then you sort of broke it down
0:09:41 into smaller, more digestible chunks, right?
0:09:42 Because you can’t just make
0:09:43 the million dollars in a second.
0:09:44 You’re like,
0:09:46 I need to make $20,000 a week.
0:09:48 I need to make $3,000 in a day.
0:09:50 To do that, I got to sell $30,000 items.
0:09:52 That seems achievable.
0:09:53 What was,
0:09:55 can you just tell us,
0:09:56 why did you decide to make that video?
0:09:59 Well, from such a young age,
0:10:02 and I’m not entirely sure
0:10:04 where I could pinpoint this,
0:10:05 but I’ve always wanted to
0:10:08 make massive impact on the world.
0:10:12 And usually that is parallel
0:10:14 with having a lot of monetary success.
0:10:16 And so my goal was always
0:10:18 make a million dollars while in high school.
0:10:20 Part of that was because
0:10:23 I was really stressed out about school.
0:10:25 My parents were super strict about my grades,
0:10:28 and social studies was the one class I hated.
0:10:32 I hated that I had to memorize flashcards.
0:10:35 And I vividly remember one night
0:10:36 where I was sitting there
0:10:38 trying to memorize these flashcards
0:10:40 about explorers that came to the Americas.
0:10:43 And I was so frustrated.
0:10:45 I broke down the problem and realized that
0:10:47 I’m studying to get a good grade,
0:10:48 but why?
0:10:49 Why do I want a good grade?
0:10:51 It’s to get into a good college
0:10:52 so that I could get a good job
0:10:53 and make money,
0:10:55 and then live a happy life.
0:10:58 So if I could skip all of those steps,
0:11:00 it would remove the stress
0:11:01 that I’m feeling right now.
0:11:02 If I can make money right now
0:11:04 so I wouldn’t need to worry about a job,
0:11:05 I wouldn’t need to be stressed.
0:11:07 And then I set out the goal to do so.
0:11:09 You’re not wrong.
0:11:11 It’s the intelligent man’s procrastination.
0:11:11 It’s like,
0:11:13 yeah, should I study these 15 flashcards
0:11:15 or make a million dollars?
0:11:16 I think I’ll make a million dollars instead.
0:11:18 Are your parents entrepreneurs
0:11:20 or are they just normal?
0:11:21 The house was nice.
0:11:22 That’s a nice house.
0:11:25 So my parents have both been lawyers
0:11:27 for their career.
0:11:28 But then recently,
0:11:29 two years ago,
0:11:32 my dad left his job at a company
0:11:35 to start a financial consulting firm.
0:11:38 And I always worry people are going to think,
0:11:40 oh, because he started a business,
0:11:41 that’s where all of this came from.
0:11:43 But I was entrepreneurial and doing things
0:11:46 long before he actually left his company
0:11:47 to start his…
0:11:49 Do you like give him tips sometimes?
0:11:52 I don’t.
0:11:54 I should offer to angel invest in his company
0:11:56 and be his mentor.
0:11:58 All right.
0:12:00 So you, Sam,
0:12:01 any thoughts on that video
0:12:02 before we move on from the video?
0:12:03 It’s the best.
0:12:04 You know, Sean,
0:12:05 we brought this up
0:12:08 maybe six months ago
0:12:09 on a podcast.
0:12:10 I don’t know if you remember that.
0:12:12 And it was still like,
0:12:14 is this kid like,
0:12:15 is this a joke?
0:12:16 Like, does he actually have it?
0:12:18 And, you know,
0:12:19 how like real is this?
0:12:21 And we brought that up saying,
0:12:22 this is amazing
0:12:23 if it turns out to be true.
0:12:26 And it is true times 20.
0:12:28 It’s like absolutely amazing
0:12:28 that you’ve been able to hold this on.
0:12:29 Well, it’s grown a lot.
0:12:30 I think at that time,
0:12:33 it was like a million dollar ARR app.
0:12:34 Yeah.
0:12:36 So I think you were probably at
0:12:38 something like $80,000 a month.
0:12:38 Yeah.
0:12:40 Now, how much revenue are you doing?
0:12:42 Well, last month,
0:12:44 we just did our first $2 million.
0:12:47 So, wow.
0:12:48 Okay.
0:12:50 You’re in a $24 million pace.
0:12:51 And what will the,
0:12:54 your first 12 months of full business,
0:12:55 what will the revenue be?
0:12:57 Full business,
0:12:59 the revenue would have exceeded $10 million
0:13:01 from launching in May
0:13:02 to coming this month.
0:13:05 And is it entirely bootstrapped?
0:13:07 Have you had any outside financing?
0:13:08 All bootstrapped.
0:13:09 Wow.
0:13:10 And how many employees?
0:13:10 I’m just going to,
0:13:11 like, I’m going to,
0:13:12 I need to ask a bunch of questions
0:13:13 so I understand all the info.
0:13:15 How many employees?
0:13:16 Totally.
0:13:17 Right now,
0:13:19 we have 15 employees full time.
0:13:19 Wow.
0:13:20 Okay.
0:13:21 That’s amazing.
0:13:21 Wow.
0:13:21 That’s a lot.
0:13:24 So how did you get it to work?
0:13:24 Okay.
0:13:25 So you make an app,
0:13:26 you’re a coder,
0:13:27 you started coding
0:13:28 when you were seven years old
0:13:29 or something like that.
0:13:30 so I believe that you could make an app.
0:13:31 Yeah.
0:13:32 It seems like,
0:13:33 let’s just do a quick summary
0:13:34 on making the app.
0:13:35 So how did you actually build this,
0:13:35 like,
0:13:36 thing?
0:13:37 Are you basically taking
0:13:39 a bunch of AI tools
0:13:40 and then sort of,
0:13:42 I’m not saying like
0:13:43 you’re just like a wrapper,
0:13:44 but like custom,
0:13:46 custom building them
0:13:47 for this use case
0:13:49 of tracking calories in an app.
0:13:50 Can you just quickly describe
0:13:51 making the app
0:13:52 and how long that took you?
0:13:52 Totally.
0:13:54 So a lot of people
0:13:55 do look down
0:13:56 on apps like Cal AI.
0:13:58 They’ll summarize them
0:13:59 as just an AI wrapper
0:14:01 and think that we
0:14:03 aren’t providing any value.
0:14:04 And it’s true
0:14:05 that we started
0:14:06 as an AI wrapper.
0:14:07 And I think that
0:14:09 that’s something
0:14:09 all apps
0:14:10 should do.
0:14:11 Just like
0:14:12 in e-com,
0:14:13 it’s very common
0:14:14 to start as a dropshipper
0:14:16 and dropship a product.
0:14:18 and then once you find success,
0:14:20 actually manufacture yourself,
0:14:21 store it yourself,
0:14:23 create your own brand
0:14:23 out of that.
0:14:24 So it’s just
0:14:25 the proof of concept
0:14:26 is the dropshipping.
0:14:27 For us,
0:14:28 the proof of concept
0:14:30 was using
0:14:31 ChatGPT
0:14:32 and other AI tools
0:14:34 kind of as a wrapper app,
0:14:34 frankly.
0:14:36 But then after finding
0:14:37 initial success,
0:14:38 which,
0:14:39 so the first app,
0:14:40 the first version,
0:14:41 very,
0:14:42 very bare bones,
0:14:43 very,
0:14:44 very basic,
0:14:45 you were able
0:14:46 to take a picture
0:14:46 of your food,
0:14:47 it would tell you
0:14:48 the calories,
0:14:48 it would have
0:14:49 the daily breakdown.
0:14:50 That was it.
0:14:51 One feature.
0:14:52 And then,
0:14:53 after we saw
0:14:54 that people liked it,
0:14:56 we started adding
0:14:57 more features.
0:14:58 How many people
0:14:59 did you have
0:15:00 using it
0:15:00 to determine
0:15:01 that they like it?
0:15:03 We had,
0:15:04 so,
0:15:05 this is important to note,
0:15:06 we’ve grown
0:15:07 all through
0:15:07 influencer marketing,
0:15:08 which is how
0:15:09 we’ve achieved
0:15:10 our rapid growth.
0:15:11 And so,
0:15:12 after working
0:15:13 with two
0:15:13 influencers,
0:15:14 having them
0:15:15 post on their
0:15:15 stories,
0:15:16 talking about
0:15:16 the app,
0:15:17 that’s when
0:15:17 we had the
0:15:18 initial feedback
0:15:19 and saw that
0:15:20 people actually liked it.
0:15:20 So,
0:15:21 let’s go step-by-step.
0:15:22 You make the app,
0:15:23 app exists,
0:15:24 who are the first
0:15:25 10 people that see it?
0:15:26 Family and friends?
0:15:26 Is that where
0:15:27 you started with?
0:15:28 Family and friends,
0:15:29 although we just
0:15:30 disregarded anything
0:15:32 from them because
0:15:32 I always think
0:15:33 it’s biased.
0:15:33 Okay,
0:15:34 so you send it to them,
0:15:35 they’re kind of,
0:15:35 they say,
0:15:35 oh,
0:15:36 it’s great,
0:15:36 you’re like,
0:15:36 all right,
0:15:37 cool,
0:15:37 but we don’t really know.
0:15:38 Next,
0:15:40 what’d you do next?
0:15:41 So,
0:15:41 next,
0:15:43 we started contacting
0:15:44 influencers,
0:15:45 fitness influencers
0:15:46 on Instagram
0:15:47 and TikTok.
0:15:48 Did my DM get lost
0:15:48 in the mail?
0:15:51 Why did I,
0:15:53 is this in my other
0:15:54 inbox?
0:15:54 What’s going on?
0:15:57 Yeah,
0:15:57 we’ll need to get you
0:15:58 on it.
0:15:58 But,
0:16:00 we reached out
0:16:00 and
0:16:02 most people just
0:16:03 don’t respond.
0:16:04 It took me
0:16:06 over two weeks
0:16:06 to get my first
0:16:07 response from an
0:16:08 influencer.
0:16:09 Give us a sense
0:16:09 of the pitch.
0:16:10 What’s the DM say?
0:16:11 So,
0:16:11 basically,
0:16:12 you always want to start
0:16:13 at least from
0:16:14 what we’ve tested.
0:16:15 we’ve ran a lot
0:16:16 of A-B tests
0:16:16 on this.
0:16:18 Paid promo,
0:16:19 putting that first,
0:16:20 the question mark,
0:16:21 and then jumping
0:16:23 into our app,
0:16:24 lets you track calories
0:16:24 just by taking
0:16:25 a picture of your food.
0:16:27 We think it would
0:16:27 fit your audience
0:16:28 and would love
0:16:29 to work for you,
0:16:29 with you.
0:16:31 If you’re interested,
0:16:32 let us know
0:16:32 and we can hop
0:16:33 on a quick call.
0:16:34 And so,
0:16:35 this works really well
0:16:36 because it optimizes
0:16:38 for that preview message
0:16:39 the influencer will see
0:16:39 in their inbox.
0:16:40 they only see
0:16:41 the first line
0:16:41 or two.
0:16:42 The paid promo
0:16:43 is what sticks out.
0:16:45 And which influencer
0:16:46 took,
0:16:47 what was your,
0:16:47 who was it?
0:16:49 And where’d you,
0:16:49 where’d you get the money,
0:16:49 right?
0:16:50 So,
0:16:50 you’re saying paid promo,
0:16:51 but your kids,
0:16:52 are you like,
0:16:53 hey dad,
0:16:53 can we get five grand
0:16:54 to like seed money
0:16:55 to try this?
0:16:56 Where’d the money
0:16:57 come from to start?
0:16:58 Sure.
0:16:58 So,
0:17:00 before building Cal AI,
0:17:01 I actually built
0:17:03 an unblocked gaming website
0:17:04 my freshman year
0:17:04 of high school.
0:17:06 This website lets students
0:17:07 play games in class
0:17:08 while their teacher
0:17:09 was teaching.
0:17:11 bypassing the website
0:17:12 blocking protocols.
0:17:14 And I grew that
0:17:16 to 5 million users
0:17:16 through TikTok.
0:17:18 It was generating money
0:17:19 by putting ads
0:17:20 on the site.
0:17:21 And then I sold it.
0:17:21 So,
0:17:22 that’s where most
0:17:22 of the money came
0:17:23 in that we put into this.
0:17:24 By the way,
0:17:24 Sam,
0:17:26 that’s now the third
0:17:26 or fourth person
0:17:27 that’s come on this podcast
0:17:29 who has that same
0:17:30 origin story of,
0:17:32 I was in school,
0:17:33 they blocked games
0:17:34 on our school.
0:17:35 I’m guessing you guys
0:17:36 had like Chromebooks
0:17:36 or something like
0:17:37 some school computers.
0:17:37 you know,
0:17:38 very oddly,
0:17:39 Sean,
0:17:40 it was Val,
0:17:40 my friend Val,
0:17:41 who came on
0:17:42 and said his son
0:17:42 did it.
0:17:43 His son was doing that now?
0:17:44 Well,
0:17:44 they went to the same
0:17:44 high school.
0:17:45 Oh,
0:17:46 really?
0:17:46 Yeah.
0:17:47 Saeed Balki
0:17:48 said that that was
0:17:49 his origin story too
0:17:51 was he wanted to find
0:17:51 a way to play games
0:17:52 while at school
0:17:54 and then because of that
0:17:55 learned all these
0:17:56 different parts of coding
0:17:57 and technology
0:17:58 in order to make that happen
0:17:58 and that was their
0:17:59 first taste of money.
0:18:01 But Jess Ma,
0:18:02 same thing with gaming
0:18:03 servers at school.
0:18:04 So you had this,
0:18:06 you figured out,
0:18:06 all right,
0:18:07 we have these school laptops,
0:18:08 people want to play games,
0:18:08 they’re blocked.
0:18:09 How’d you get around
0:18:10 the block
0:18:11 and what was this thing
0:18:12 called?
0:18:14 The website was called
0:18:16 totallyscience.co
0:18:18 and that’s how it got
0:18:19 categorized as educational.
0:18:21 That was the main thing.
0:18:22 But we also had all
0:18:23 of these features
0:18:23 on the website.
0:18:24 For example,
0:18:26 if you press the tilde
0:18:27 key on the keyboard,
0:18:28 it would redirect
0:18:29 to Google Classroom.
0:18:30 so if the teacher
0:18:30 was coming,
0:18:31 you could quickly
0:18:31 hide it.
0:18:32 Oh, nice.
0:18:33 Nice.
0:18:35 That’s crazy.
0:18:36 Hey,
0:18:37 how can you complain?
0:18:38 This is science.
0:18:38 Not only science.
0:18:39 This is totally science.
0:18:41 This is only science.
0:18:42 All right,
0:18:43 so you do that.
0:18:44 That company,
0:18:46 you were making how much
0:18:46 and you sold that
0:18:47 for how much?
0:18:49 It made $60,000
0:18:50 for two years
0:18:52 and then I sold it
0:18:54 for $100,000
0:18:55 when I was 16.
0:18:57 So this is like
0:18:58 the first sign
0:18:59 to have a kid,
0:19:00 to have your son
0:19:01 from your parents’ perspective
0:19:03 do $60,000 in revenue
0:19:04 and profit
0:19:05 or something like that
0:19:06 when they’re 14.
0:19:08 That’s like asking,
0:19:08 you know,
0:19:09 are you a drug dealer?
0:19:10 What’s going on?
0:19:11 How are you doing this?
0:19:12 Did that take convincing
0:19:13 on your end
0:19:14 to let them know
0:19:15 what you were doing
0:19:16 was totally legal?
0:19:17 At any point,
0:19:18 your parents are lawyers
0:19:18 where they’re like,
0:19:20 are you breaking any laws, man?
0:19:21 Are you sure
0:19:22 you’re on top of all this?
0:19:24 I definitely got questioned
0:19:25 about breaking laws
0:19:26 by my dad
0:19:27 a bunch of times.
0:19:28 He actually made me
0:19:30 put up a terms of service
0:19:31 that said in all caps,
0:19:33 you cannot use this
0:19:34 while in school.
0:19:35 This is only for breaks
0:19:36 or at home.
0:19:39 And my mom was always shocked
0:19:40 every time I actually
0:19:41 got a payout from Google.
0:19:43 I think maybe it was that
0:19:45 it didn’t sound like
0:19:45 a real business.
0:19:47 Unblocked Games website,
0:19:48 how could that make money?
0:19:49 But I actually had money
0:19:50 coming into my bank account
0:19:51 that was under her name
0:19:52 because I was too young
0:19:53 to open one
0:19:53 and she was shocked
0:19:54 Did you do anything cool
0:19:56 with it, the money?
0:19:58 Well, not really.
0:20:00 Honestly, I put all of it
0:20:01 into Cal AI
0:20:03 when we launched it.
0:20:04 It’s a pretty cool thing.
0:20:06 The only thing actually
0:20:07 that I’ve spent
0:20:08 the money I’ve made on,
0:20:09 and this was recent,
0:20:10 was my 18th birthday party.
0:20:12 I flew my friends out
0:20:13 to Miami
0:20:14 for a weekend trip
0:20:15 from Heinz School.
0:20:17 That’s awesome.
0:20:18 All right, sweet.
0:20:20 So you put the money
0:20:20 into Cal AI.
0:20:21 You got the money,
0:20:22 you reach out
0:20:22 to the influencers.
0:20:23 You said two influencers
0:20:24 start posting
0:20:26 and what are they posting?
0:20:28 Is there some science to it?
0:20:29 We just had, you know,
0:20:29 Rob the Bank on
0:20:30 talking about TikTok
0:20:32 as a distribution strategy
0:20:33 about what makes
0:20:34 great TikTok hooks
0:20:34 and videos
0:20:35 and how that game
0:20:36 is being played.
0:20:37 Do you know, Rob,
0:20:37 and I guess,
0:20:38 how have you guys
0:20:39 played that game
0:20:40 of short-form content
0:20:41 to grow your apps?
0:20:44 So Totally Science
0:20:45 and Cal AI
0:20:47 were a little different.
0:20:48 For Totally Science,
0:20:49 I was the one
0:20:50 making the videos myself.
0:20:51 I was recording
0:20:52 my screening class
0:20:52 saying,
0:20:53 hey, if you want to play
0:20:54 Unblocked Games,
0:20:55 go to this website,
0:20:56 and then I would put
0:20:58 a little thing,
0:20:59 a caption that says,
0:21:00 comment what game
0:21:00 to add next.
0:21:01 And that would
0:21:03 gather a ton of comments
0:21:04 making the video
0:21:04 go viral.
0:21:06 For Cal AI,
0:21:07 I’m not the one
0:21:08 making videos.
0:21:10 No one on the team is.
0:21:11 It’s all influencers.
0:21:13 So we still use
0:21:15 the knowledge from,
0:21:16 well,
0:21:16 what I learned
0:21:17 from Totally Science
0:21:19 to help these influencers
0:21:20 make videos
0:21:22 and make them go viral
0:21:23 to give ideas.
0:21:24 But for the most part,
0:21:26 we just pay the influencer
0:21:28 that fits our niche.
0:21:29 And then there are
0:21:30 the professionals.
0:21:31 They know what goes viral.
0:21:32 As long as we can
0:21:34 predict the ROI,
0:21:36 which we have a ton of
0:21:37 factors and variables
0:21:38 we look at,
0:21:40 then we let them
0:21:41 run with it.
0:21:42 You pay them on CPM
0:21:43 or how do you pay them?
0:21:46 So CPM would be a blessing.
0:21:48 And that’s the dream
0:21:48 for everyone
0:21:49 if you could do that
0:21:50 because then you guarantee
0:21:51 profitability.
0:21:52 But these influencers,
0:21:54 they need to be paid
0:21:55 usually in advance.
0:21:56 Otherwise,
0:21:57 they won’t do it.
0:21:57 They’ll have another brand
0:21:58 that’s willing to work
0:21:59 with them.
0:22:00 So you have to predict
0:22:03 before they make any video
0:22:03 how many views
0:22:04 they’re going to get.
0:22:05 You’ll have to look
0:22:06 at their previous videos.
0:22:07 But then you also
0:22:08 have to keep in mind
0:22:09 not all views
0:22:09 are worth the same.
0:22:10 You have to analyze
0:22:11 the comment section
0:22:12 and see how strong
0:22:13 their community is.
0:22:14 And based on that,
0:22:16 weigh how much
0:22:16 you’re actually going
0:22:17 to pay them.
0:22:18 That’s wild.
0:22:18 So you,
0:22:21 is this thing pretty sticky
0:22:22 and where do you
0:22:23 want to take this?
0:22:23 So,
0:22:24 great,
0:22:25 you go viral,
0:22:26 you get people to download.
0:22:27 I’m assuming they hit
0:22:28 some paywall in the app
0:22:29 that says,
0:22:30 keep track of all
0:22:30 your calories,
0:22:31 blah, blah, blah.
0:22:33 Is it kind of one of
0:22:34 these churn and burn games
0:22:35 where it’s pretty profitable
0:22:35 for the first couple months
0:22:36 and then you lose people
0:22:38 or is it a sticky product?
0:22:40 So it’s sticky
0:22:42 for the power users.
0:22:44 They definitely stay around.
0:22:44 And,
0:22:46 I mean,
0:22:47 apps like MyFitnessPal,
0:22:48 they’re doing over
0:22:50 $100 million a year.
0:22:51 So I know
0:22:52 we could get there.
0:22:53 You look at
0:22:54 the reviews, Sean.
0:22:56 So he has 65,000 reviews
0:22:58 and it’s a 4.8
0:22:59 out of 5.
0:23:01 So this isn’t
0:23:02 like an arbitrage
0:23:03 or like a
0:23:04 get rich quick thing.
0:23:04 like people really
0:23:05 love the product.
0:23:06 Yeah,
0:23:07 what’s the churn
0:23:08 on these subscriptions?
0:23:10 We actually don’t know
0:23:11 because it hasn’t
0:23:12 been a year
0:23:14 and more than 95%
0:23:14 of our subscriptions
0:23:15 are annual.
0:23:16 Gotcha.
0:23:17 Okay,
0:23:17 but they’re still
0:23:18 using it presumably
0:23:19 so that,
0:23:20 you know,
0:23:20 if they’re using it,
0:23:21 they’ll stick with it.
0:23:21 Wow,
0:23:22 this is amazing.
0:23:23 And so you want
0:23:24 to take this
0:23:25 to be kind of
0:23:26 MyFitnessPal
0:23:27 or you’re like,
0:23:27 hey,
0:23:29 if somebody offered us,
0:23:29 you know,
0:23:30 a buttload of cash,
0:23:30 like I guess,
0:23:31 what’s your mindset?
0:23:32 Because I’m so curious
0:23:33 because if I was 18 years old,
0:23:34 I don’t know
0:23:35 what the hell
0:23:35 I’d be thinking.
0:23:36 Like I have no,
0:23:37 even now,
0:23:38 36 years old,
0:23:39 I still don’t really know
0:23:39 what the hell
0:23:40 I’d be thinking
0:23:41 in this position.
0:23:42 What’s the mindset
0:23:43 of an 18-year-old?
0:23:44 Because you got
0:23:45 many hits in you.
0:23:45 You know,
0:23:46 this may not be
0:23:47 the only one.
0:23:48 The same way
0:23:49 that you kind of
0:23:50 did a similar thing
0:23:51 in Totally Science
0:23:51 versus this,
0:23:52 but this just had
0:23:53 a much bigger market,
0:23:54 much more market potential.
0:23:56 You know,
0:23:56 you might be able
0:23:57 to do even more things
0:23:58 or is this something
0:23:58 you want to do
0:23:59 for a decade?
0:23:59 Yeah,
0:24:00 and does it feel like
0:24:02 you’re still breaking the law?
0:24:03 Like if you,
0:24:03 if anyone,
0:24:04 like if,
0:24:06 I don’t mean that.
0:24:06 He’s not breaking the law.
0:24:07 What are you talking about?
0:24:07 No,
0:24:08 what I mean is like
0:24:09 when you go zero
0:24:09 to $20 million
0:24:10 in revenue in eight months,
0:24:11 there’s some type
0:24:12 of like giddiness
0:24:13 of like,
0:24:13 I can’t believe
0:24:15 like this is my life.
0:24:15 I can’t believe
0:24:17 that this is allowed.
0:24:18 I don’t know.
0:24:18 There’s something,
0:24:19 there’s some type
0:24:21 of like matrix breaking idea
0:24:22 where you’re like questioning.
0:24:22 You’re like,
0:24:23 how is this possible?
0:24:25 Do you still have
0:24:25 that mentality
0:24:26 or are you like,
0:24:28 of course this is possible
0:24:29 and this is just step one?
0:24:31 I definitely have
0:24:33 the mentality of
0:24:34 it feels surreal.
0:24:35 I mean,
0:24:36 it feels nuts.
0:24:38 I’m 18 years old
0:24:38 and I’m making,
0:24:39 the company is going
0:24:40 to generate
0:24:41 over $24 million
0:24:42 this year.
0:24:43 That’s crazy.
0:24:44 The fact that I’m
0:24:45 on your podcast,
0:24:46 my first million
0:24:46 saying that,
0:24:47 it’s nuts.
0:24:48 And a year ago,
0:24:49 I wouldn’t believe it.
0:24:51 So I view this
0:24:52 as a stepping stone.
0:24:54 I want to build
0:24:54 a company
0:24:55 that touches
0:24:56 the lives
0:24:57 of billions
0:24:58 of people.
0:24:59 Something as ubiquitous
0:25:00 as the iPhone.
0:25:03 And I think Cal AI,
0:25:05 if we shifted
0:25:05 the idea
0:25:06 where maybe it’s
0:25:07 nutrition tracking
0:25:08 in general
0:25:09 and we could link
0:25:10 the photos
0:25:11 of what you’re eating
0:25:12 to your health,
0:25:13 that could be something
0:25:14 that touches the lives
0:25:14 of the billions
0:25:15 and that could be something
0:25:16 I could spend a decade on.
0:25:17 But I probably
0:25:18 don’t want to.
0:25:19 Instead,
0:25:20 I would want
0:25:21 this to be something
0:25:22 that sets me
0:25:23 financially free
0:25:24 where I don’t
0:25:25 need to think
0:25:25 about money,
0:25:26 where I’m not
0:25:27 incentivized
0:25:28 by generating
0:25:29 revenue,
0:25:30 and so I can
0:25:31 start another
0:25:31 company that
0:25:32 is purely
0:25:33 motivated by
0:25:34 impact
0:25:35 and scale
0:25:35 of impact,
0:25:36 something that
0:25:37 I’m passionate
0:25:38 about and can
0:25:38 spend a couple
0:25:39 decades on.
0:25:39 Sam,
0:25:40 I saw a post
0:25:41 today from
0:25:42 his partner,
0:25:42 Blake.
0:25:43 He posted
0:25:43 something on
0:25:45 Twitter today
0:25:45 and he said,
0:25:46 I guess he’s
0:25:47 working on
0:25:47 something called
0:25:48 10x and it
0:25:49 sounds like it’s
0:25:50 an app for
0:25:50 learning,
0:25:51 like, oh,
0:25:51 you can learn
0:25:51 anything.
0:25:52 You can learn
0:25:52 AI skills,
0:25:53 you can learn
0:25:54 language,
0:25:54 you can learn
0:25:55 whatever.
0:25:55 Sounds like
0:25:56 it’s a learning
0:25:56 tool,
0:25:58 which is more
0:25:59 in the direction
0:26:00 of kind of
0:26:00 good for the
0:26:01 world,
0:26:01 good for humanity,
0:26:02 impact style
0:26:03 thing that he’s
0:26:03 building.
0:26:04 And so it
0:26:05 sounds like he’s
0:26:06 kind of looking,
0:26:07 he started with
0:26:08 like you max,
0:26:08 which was
0:26:09 literally like
0:26:10 probably the
0:26:10 most superficial
0:26:11 thing.
0:26:11 It’s like,
0:26:11 how does my
0:26:12 face look and
0:26:13 what can I do
0:26:13 to make my
0:26:14 face look better
0:26:15 than his
0:26:16 Kali eye and
0:26:16 now he’s going
0:26:17 into like,
0:26:17 you know,
0:26:18 a learning tool.
0:26:19 It sounds like
0:26:19 you might want
0:26:20 to do the
0:26:20 same.
0:26:20 Was there
0:26:21 something that
0:26:22 triggered that
0:26:22 in you?
0:26:23 Like,
0:26:23 did you watch
0:26:24 like a movie
0:26:24 or do you
0:26:24 have like a
0:26:25 conversation
0:26:25 with a mentor
0:26:26 when you were
0:26:26 12 years old?
0:26:27 Like,
0:26:28 what made you
0:26:29 want to even,
0:26:29 what made you
0:26:30 think differently
0:26:31 than the average
0:26:32 high schooler
0:26:33 who’s hyper
0:26:34 focused on just
0:26:34 their grades
0:26:34 and,
0:26:35 you know,
0:26:36 just making
0:26:37 friends or
0:26:37 whatever’s just
0:26:38 in their little
0:26:38 pond?
0:26:39 It’s funny you
0:26:40 say movie.
0:26:41 The social network
0:26:43 totally had a
0:26:43 big impact on
0:26:43 me.
0:26:44 However,
0:26:45 I did also feel
0:26:46 this way before
0:26:46 that.
0:26:47 So that amplified
0:26:47 it.
0:26:48 That showed me
0:26:48 it’s possible
0:26:49 through specifically
0:26:50 software,
0:26:51 which made me
0:26:52 super motivated
0:26:52 to learn coding
0:26:53 even faster.
0:26:55 But I have,
0:26:56 I’m not sure
0:26:57 the initial
0:26:58 seed where it
0:26:59 was planted.
0:27:03 All right,
0:27:04 my friends,
0:27:05 I have exciting
0:27:05 news for that
0:27:06 business idea
0:27:06 that’s been
0:27:07 sitting in your
0:27:07 notes app.
0:27:08 The Hustle,
0:27:09 which is my
0:27:09 old company,
0:27:10 has partnered
0:27:11 with Indie
0:27:11 Hackers,
0:27:12 one of my
0:27:12 favorite websites,
0:27:13 to launch a
0:27:14 pitch competition.
0:27:15 It’s called
0:27:16 The Hustle’s
0:27:16 Big Break,
0:27:17 and it’s a
0:27:18 pitch competition
0:27:19 with a simple
0:27:19 premise.
0:27:20 You tell us
0:27:20 your business
0:27:21 idea in 60
0:27:22 seconds or less,
0:27:23 and the winner
0:27:24 gets $5,000
0:27:24 to turn it
0:27:25 into a reality.
0:27:26 Here’s how it
0:27:26 works.
0:27:27 Record a 60
0:27:28 second video
0:27:28 pitch of your
0:27:29 business idea.
0:27:30 Include your
0:27:30 business name,
0:27:31 description,
0:27:32 revenue model,
0:27:32 and tagline.
0:27:33 And finally,
0:27:34 submit it at
0:27:35 thehustle.co
0:27:37 slash big break,
0:27:37 and it all has
0:27:38 to be done by
0:27:39 April 4th.
0:27:40 The winner gets
0:27:41 $5,000 in cash
0:27:42 to kickstart
0:27:42 their business
0:27:43 journey.
0:27:44 Plus, we’re going
0:27:44 to feature them
0:27:45 in The Hustle’s
0:27:46 daily newsletter,
0:27:47 which is read by
0:27:47 around a million
0:27:48 and a half people,
0:27:49 and these are the
0:27:50 smartest business
0:27:51 and tech folks
0:27:51 out there.
0:27:52 The winner will
0:27:52 be announced
0:27:54 on April 11th.
0:27:54 So again,
0:27:55 if you have a
0:27:55 business idea,
0:27:57 go to thehustle.co
0:27:59 slash big break.
0:28:00 All right,
0:28:01 back to the pot.
0:28:03 What do you think
0:28:04 the app is worth
0:28:05 right now?
0:28:07 Right now,
0:28:09 I think the app
0:28:11 calculating its,
0:28:12 or taking its growth
0:28:13 into account
0:28:15 is close to
0:28:16 $100 million
0:28:18 in valuation.
0:28:19 Which means you are
0:28:20 presumably worth
0:28:21 in the ballpark
0:28:22 of $30 million.
0:28:25 I think liquid
0:28:26 and on paper
0:28:27 is really different.
0:28:28 Oh, I know,
0:28:30 but you’re totally
0:28:30 right.
0:28:32 But like 17,
0:28:33 18 years old
0:28:34 worth tens of
0:28:35 millions of dollars,
0:28:35 I think,
0:28:36 is like a fair
0:28:37 ballpark.
0:28:37 Would you agree?
0:28:39 I would agree.
0:28:41 Yeah, that’s amazing,
0:28:41 man.
0:28:41 Congratulations.
0:28:43 I’m really,
0:28:44 I’m really inspired
0:28:46 by you.
0:28:47 And I would say
0:28:48 there’s like a handful
0:28:48 of people I’ve discovered
0:28:49 that are kind of like you
0:28:51 who are super young
0:28:52 that are basically
0:28:53 AI first.
0:28:54 So all the tools
0:28:55 you’re building,
0:28:56 you build with AI
0:28:56 because why would you not?
0:28:58 You like code them
0:28:58 with AI,
0:29:00 the app uses AI,
0:29:01 the users get
0:29:03 an AI type of experience
0:29:05 and you figured out
0:29:07 a growth channel
0:29:07 that I think
0:29:09 a bunch of old guys
0:29:09 like us
0:29:11 kind of suck at
0:29:12 because you have
0:29:13 what I call
0:29:14 the bear on a bicycle
0:29:15 phenomenon.
0:29:16 So my friend Chris Williamson
0:29:17 said this to me.
0:29:17 He goes,
0:29:19 you basically want
0:29:20 to stack two skills
0:29:22 that usually don’t go together
0:29:22 and it creates
0:29:23 something remarkable.
0:29:23 So, you know,
0:29:24 you see a bear.
0:29:25 Wow, that’s a bear.
0:29:26 Okay, but I’ve seen bears.
0:29:27 You see your,
0:29:28 you see a bicycle.
0:29:29 Okay, that’s a bicycle,
0:29:29 but you see a bear
0:29:30 on a bicycle.
0:29:31 Holy shit.
0:29:32 Never seen that before.
0:29:32 That’s amazing.
0:29:33 And for you,
0:29:34 that’s basically like,
0:29:35 you know how to code,
0:29:36 but a lot of kids
0:29:36 know how to code.
0:29:38 And it’s this other piece
0:29:39 that you also had,
0:29:41 which was the knowledge of,
0:29:42 and you even said it
0:29:43 in your video,
0:29:43 video editing
0:29:45 and just making fun videos.
0:29:47 This kind of
0:29:48 the TikTok knowledge
0:29:49 and you combined
0:29:50 how to make TikToks
0:29:51 that will get views
0:29:52 with how to make
0:29:53 apps that work
0:29:54 and that is your
0:29:56 bear on a bicycle thing.
0:29:57 And so I’m pretty inspired
0:29:57 because there’s actually
0:29:58 like a group of people
0:29:59 who are just like you
0:30:00 and I would say
0:30:01 right now is like
0:30:03 a very golden window
0:30:04 for that group of people
0:30:05 to go build things.
0:30:06 Like, and, you know,
0:30:07 hopefully people listening
0:30:07 to this,
0:30:07 hopefully there’s,
0:30:08 you know,
0:30:09 we trigger another
0:30:11 20 to 100 people
0:30:12 just like you
0:30:13 who hear this story
0:30:13 and are like,
0:30:15 you’re their social network,
0:30:15 right?
0:30:16 They’re going to hear this
0:30:16 and they’re going to start
0:30:17 doing it.
0:30:18 that set of skills
0:30:19 I think is very,
0:30:20 very valuable
0:30:21 for this moment in time.
0:30:23 I totally agree.
0:30:24 And that’s honestly
0:30:25 why I’m super motivated
0:30:26 to go on podcasts
0:30:27 like these.
0:30:29 I was super motivated
0:30:30 by others before me
0:30:31 that I’ve watched
0:30:32 on podcasts
0:30:33 and so this is almost
0:30:34 a full circle moment
0:30:36 for me to come on here.
0:30:38 Yeah, that’s interesting.
0:30:39 Sam, would you be
0:30:39 going on podcasts?
0:30:40 Because like, you know,
0:30:41 while you’re here,
0:30:42 I’m like,
0:30:43 oh, this is great content.
0:30:43 I’m excited.
0:30:44 But then there’s like
0:30:45 the fatherly part of me
0:30:46 that’s like, shut up,
0:30:47 dude, just shut up.
0:30:48 Why are you on the podcast?
0:30:49 You shouldn’t be saying
0:30:50 any of this stuff
0:30:51 because you have
0:30:52 such a good thing going
0:30:54 and you can always
0:30:54 tell the story
0:30:55 a little later.
0:30:56 You don’t need to invite,
0:30:57 you know,
0:30:59 the other Zach Yadigaris
0:31:00 of the world
0:31:01 who are, you know,
0:31:02 they can code,
0:31:03 they can make TikToks,
0:31:04 they got cool haircuts
0:31:05 like you,
0:31:05 and they’re just going
0:31:06 to do the same thing,
0:31:06 right?
0:31:07 So like,
0:31:08 why go on
0:31:09 and spill your secrets?
0:31:11 You know,
0:31:11 why do that?
0:31:15 So I’ve heard this before
0:31:18 that usually you know
0:31:19 what it takes
0:31:20 or people usually know
0:31:21 what it takes
0:31:22 to be successful,
0:31:24 but then they are looking
0:31:26 for an easier way.
0:31:27 They’re looking for something
0:31:31 that is not as burdensome,
0:31:32 not as hard,
0:31:33 doesn’t require as much sacrifice.
0:31:35 And I’ve been coding
0:31:36 since I was seven.
0:31:37 I’m 18 now.
0:31:40 That’s 11 years of coding.
0:31:41 I’ve started
0:31:42 totally science
0:31:43 and before that
0:31:44 I was tutoring kids
0:31:45 and coding lessons
0:31:47 for almost a decade
0:31:48 of my life.
0:31:50 I was in the entrepreneur game.
0:31:52 And so I think that,
0:31:52 yes,
0:31:53 I can share
0:31:54 all of this information
0:31:54 publicly,
0:31:56 but it’s only
0:31:57 a select few
0:31:59 who will actually
0:32:00 work towards it
0:32:02 and put in
0:32:03 the amount of hours
0:32:04 required
0:32:05 to achieve the result
0:32:07 where I want
0:32:08 to help those people.
0:32:10 I think helping
0:32:11 those people
0:32:12 achieve the same success,
0:32:13 especially if they were
0:32:14 in a situation like mine
0:32:15 where they maybe
0:32:16 weren’t entirely sure
0:32:16 where to go,
0:32:17 but they knew
0:32:18 there was a world
0:32:18 out there
0:32:19 where they could have
0:32:20 massive impact
0:32:21 at such a young age,
0:32:23 even balancing school
0:32:24 on the side.
0:32:26 And so I completely
0:32:27 support those people.
0:32:29 you have a trait
0:32:31 that Sean and I’s
0:32:32 good buddy Jack Smith
0:32:33 is the perfect
0:32:34 embodiment of this trait.
0:32:36 But a lot of entrepreneurs
0:32:37 are,
0:32:37 which is
0:32:39 you’re logical,
0:32:41 which a lot of times
0:32:42 will be awkward
0:32:44 on a day-to-day level.
0:32:44 For example,
0:32:45 my friend Jack,
0:32:48 he does things
0:32:48 so differently
0:32:49 from everyone
0:32:51 because his way
0:32:52 is actually better,
0:32:52 but we’ve all done it
0:32:53 in such a way
0:32:54 for 100 plus years
0:32:55 that we’re like,
0:32:55 well, I don’t know,
0:32:56 we just do it this way.
0:32:57 And so, for example,
0:32:59 he didn’t name his daughter
0:33:00 the first year
0:33:01 because he was like,
0:33:02 I have to get to know her
0:33:03 before I can name her.
0:33:03 And I was like,
0:33:04 yeah, that makes total sense.
0:33:05 It’s just strange to think about.
0:33:07 You have that type of energy.
0:33:08 You said,
0:33:10 well, I’m worrying about grades
0:33:11 so I can get a good job
0:33:12 or get into a good college
0:33:12 and get a good job
0:33:13 and make good money.
0:33:14 What if I just make money now?
0:33:16 That way of thinking
0:33:17 is amazing.
0:33:19 And it’s really fun
0:33:20 to be around people like you.
0:33:20 And so,
0:33:22 I want to hear your perspective
0:33:23 on a few things,
0:33:24 this fresh thinking
0:33:24 on a few things.
0:33:25 The first is,
0:33:26 you have 15 employees.
0:33:28 do you have any employees
0:33:29 who are in their 30s
0:33:30 or 40s?
0:33:32 And what’s it like
0:33:33 having to go
0:33:34 from being just
0:33:35 you and your buddies
0:33:35 in a room
0:33:36 messing around
0:33:37 to at 15 people,
0:33:38 you’re actually running
0:33:39 a real company?
0:33:41 So, yes,
0:33:43 we do have employees
0:33:44 that are in their 40s.
0:33:46 And it’s difficult
0:33:50 to be honest with you.
0:33:52 It’s hard at times.
0:33:54 To make them call you sir.
0:33:57 I do not make them call me sir.
0:33:59 But it is difficult,
0:34:01 especially when I have to fire someone
0:34:02 that has kids.
0:34:07 And I do have imposter syndrome
0:34:08 at times,
0:34:09 which is something
0:34:11 I try to not let
0:34:12 hold me back ever.
0:34:12 So,
0:34:13 even if I think a certain way,
0:34:15 I still act
0:34:16 how I know I should.
0:34:18 I’m reading this great book
0:34:18 right now
0:34:19 called The Great CEO Within.
0:34:21 I also keep it on my desk
0:34:22 as a reminder.
0:34:24 And it helps me lead.
0:34:26 I try to be an inspiring leader
0:34:29 that helps people,
0:34:31 that doesn’t lead
0:34:31 by telling people
0:34:32 what to do
0:34:34 and just do it now.
0:34:35 I try to inspire them
0:34:37 to want to do the work.
0:34:39 Does your staff,
0:34:41 are you guys
0:34:42 a well-organized company,
0:34:42 you think?
0:34:43 Or is it a shit show?
0:34:46 I think that
0:34:47 we are pretty well-organized
0:34:49 and that’s mainly credited
0:34:50 to our COO
0:34:52 and the third co-founder
0:34:52 I didn’t mention,
0:34:53 Jake Castillo.
0:34:55 He’s really good
0:34:55 at organization.
0:34:57 So,
0:34:57 one of the things
0:34:58 we talked about was like,
0:34:59 you know,
0:35:01 why come and talk about this?
0:35:02 And part of you was like,
0:35:02 well,
0:35:03 I want to inspire other people,
0:35:04 but we don’t want to inspire
0:35:06 just a bunch of copycats.
0:35:07 And so we asked you,
0:35:07 we were like,
0:35:07 hey,
0:35:08 what are some other ideas
0:35:10 that if you weren’t doing this,
0:35:10 you think somebody
0:35:11 could go do right now?
0:35:12 So,
0:35:13 how can the next you,
0:35:15 how can the next high schooler
0:35:16 get to where you’re at?
0:35:17 $20 million a year
0:35:18 in revenue
0:35:19 as a 17,
0:35:19 18-year-old.
0:35:19 So,
0:35:20 what ideas do you have for us?
0:35:21 Sure.
0:35:22 So,
0:35:22 obviously,
0:35:23 you know,
0:35:24 you could teach a man to fish
0:35:25 or you could give a man a fish.
0:35:26 Teaching is better.
0:35:26 So,
0:35:27 I have a few frameworks,
0:35:29 which I think will help even more,
0:35:31 but I also will give some ideas.
0:35:32 Okay,
0:35:32 go for it.
0:35:35 how I usually look at these AI problems
0:35:36 or not AI problems,
0:35:38 but creating something new in general
0:35:41 is that AI has enabled people
0:35:44 to basically build on top of
0:35:46 and innovate on any tool
0:35:50 or company that exists right now.
0:35:50 So,
0:35:53 the calendar was innovated on
0:35:55 and now there are AI calendar tools
0:35:56 like Motion,
0:35:58 which help you organize
0:35:59 and structure your day
0:36:00 a lot easier,
0:36:01 your assistant.
0:36:03 there are note-taking tools
0:36:04 where people have always
0:36:06 taken notes by hand.
0:36:08 People have also recorded lectures,
0:36:10 but now there are AI platforms
0:36:12 like TurboLearn AI
0:36:14 where you can record your lecture
0:36:16 and then the AI
0:36:17 will generate notes for you.
0:36:20 Calorie tracking.
0:36:22 There have always been calorie trackers,
0:36:23 but now with AI,
0:36:25 you can just take a picture of your food
0:36:26 and it will tell you the calories.
0:36:27 So,
0:36:29 I try to look at everything
0:36:32 that doesn’t already use AI
0:36:33 and think,
0:36:35 can AI make this more efficient,
0:36:37 make this a better process?
0:36:39 And
0:36:41 my perspective
0:36:43 on coming up with new ideas
0:36:46 is generally that
0:36:48 I want to find something
0:36:50 looking at it
0:36:52 from marketing-first principles
0:36:54 is how I always think.
0:36:55 So,
0:36:57 almost going backwards
0:36:58 and
0:36:59 I look for
0:37:00 an aha moment
0:37:01 that I could capture
0:37:03 within some sort of experience
0:37:04 and then
0:37:06 wrap a whole
0:37:07 app
0:37:08 around that.
0:37:08 So,
0:37:09 for Cal AI,
0:37:10 the aha moment
0:37:11 is take a picture of your food,
0:37:12 get the calories.
0:37:13 And that’s great
0:37:14 for marketing material.
0:37:15 They come on,
0:37:16 they do that,
0:37:17 but then there’s a whole app
0:37:18 around that
0:37:19 that gets them to stay.
0:37:20 There’s
0:37:22 another app
0:37:23 on the app store right now
0:37:24 called Fitness AI
0:37:25 and
0:37:26 their ads
0:37:27 recently have
0:37:28 been around
0:37:30 their AI body scanner
0:37:31 where you just take a picture
0:37:32 of your body
0:37:33 and then it will tell you
0:37:34 your body fat percentage
0:37:35 and
0:37:37 a ton of other useful information
0:37:38 on your composition.
0:37:39 So,
0:37:40 that’s what draws people in
0:37:41 to that AI tool
0:37:42 which is the aha moment
0:37:44 and then there’s a whole
0:37:45 fitness app around
0:37:46 that you stay
0:37:46 to
0:37:48 track your workouts
0:37:48 on that app.
0:37:50 So,
0:37:50 that’s the framework
0:37:52 I generally like to use.
0:37:52 And so,
0:37:53 what do you think is,
0:37:54 so you’re saying
0:37:55 work backwards
0:37:56 from the magic moment
0:37:57 where AI does a magic trick
0:37:58 and you’re like,
0:37:58 holy shit,
0:37:59 that’s cool
0:38:00 and then build a sticky,
0:38:01 you know,
0:38:01 for you guys,
0:38:02 let’s take a picture,
0:38:03 get the calories
0:38:03 and then you have
0:38:04 the tracking
0:38:05 and the charts
0:38:06 and the other stuff
0:38:07 that’s going to keep them,
0:38:08 maybe the coaching tips
0:38:09 or whatever
0:38:10 that’s going to
0:38:10 keep them around
0:38:11 in the long term.
0:38:11 Cool,
0:38:12 got it.
0:38:13 And the other thing
0:38:14 you’re saying is
0:38:15 take any app
0:38:15 that’s popular
0:38:16 that we’ve already
0:38:17 been doing
0:38:18 and just say,
0:38:19 what’s the AI version
0:38:19 of this?
0:38:21 Is that the brainstorming
0:38:22 session you would do
0:38:22 is basically like,
0:38:23 all right,
0:38:23 Evernote,
0:38:25 what’s the AI version
0:38:25 of Evernote?
0:38:26 Or,
0:38:27 you know,
0:38:28 our buddy
0:38:30 in San Francisco,
0:38:30 I mean,
0:38:31 Sam’s buddy,
0:38:31 Siava,
0:38:32 he had this company
0:38:32 called StudySoup
0:38:34 and StudySoup
0:38:34 was literally
0:38:35 for college kids,
0:38:36 they would have
0:38:37 paid note takers
0:38:38 who would take
0:38:39 great notes
0:38:39 in a lecture
0:38:40 and then you had,
0:38:40 you basically had
0:38:41 the slackers
0:38:42 and you had the kids
0:38:43 that were on top
0:38:43 of things.
0:38:44 kids on top
0:38:44 of things
0:38:45 where the supply
0:38:46 side of the marketplace,
0:38:46 they would give
0:38:47 their notes
0:38:48 and the slackers
0:38:49 would buy their notes
0:38:49 and say,
0:38:49 oh,
0:38:49 cool,
0:38:50 I don’t have
0:38:51 to take notes
0:38:51 in this class
0:38:52 because I’m getting
0:38:52 them done for me
0:38:53 and you’re saying,
0:38:54 you’re basically saying
0:38:55 that Turbolone
0:38:55 has become
0:38:56 an AI version
0:38:57 of StudySoup,
0:38:57 right,
0:38:58 where it’s like
0:38:59 someone records it
0:38:59 and now you have,
0:39:01 you have,
0:39:02 you have well,
0:39:03 well taken AI notes
0:39:03 for your,
0:39:04 for that class.
0:39:04 Yeah,
0:39:05 exactly.
0:39:06 so what are
0:39:06 some examples?
0:39:07 Yeah,
0:39:08 so here’s an idea.
0:39:10 I’ve actually seen
0:39:11 something like this
0:39:13 or recently on Twitter,
0:39:14 I saw something blow up,
0:39:15 maybe it was a couple
0:39:16 months ago,
0:39:16 not so recent,
0:39:17 where someone put
0:39:18 a bunch of their
0:39:19 journal entries
0:39:20 into ChatGPT
0:39:21 and then asked,
0:39:22 what are some insights
0:39:23 you could give me
0:39:24 to make my life better?
0:39:25 You got it.
0:39:26 And I both do that.
0:39:27 Yeah,
0:39:28 well that’s great.
0:39:29 So I think
0:39:30 there is
0:39:31 the possibility
0:39:31 and I think
0:39:32 this would be
0:39:32 a great idea
0:39:34 to build a journal app
0:39:35 and these journal apps
0:39:36 already exist.
0:39:37 So take an existing one,
0:39:38 put your,
0:39:39 and this is the spin.
0:39:41 So you could make it
0:39:42 voice notes,
0:39:43 you can make it typing,
0:39:44 whatever,
0:39:44 doesn’t matter.
0:39:46 But the key feature,
0:39:47 the aha moment
0:39:48 AI feature you implement
0:39:50 is that periodically
0:39:51 you will have
0:39:52 these insights
0:39:53 generated
0:39:54 from the AI
0:39:55 on how you can
0:39:55 improve your life.
0:39:56 Like,
0:39:56 hey,
0:39:57 on Monday and Tuesday
0:39:58 you hung out with Sally
0:39:59 and you had a bad day.
0:40:00 Maybe Sally is the cause
0:40:01 of your bad days.
0:40:03 Gotcha.
0:40:03 Okay,
0:40:04 I like that.
0:40:05 so AI journal.
0:40:07 I feel like
0:40:08 with the kind
0:40:09 of younger generation,
0:40:10 I feel like therapy
0:40:12 is a lot more normalized.
0:40:13 Therapy is cool,
0:40:14 basically,
0:40:15 whereas in my generation
0:40:16 and my parents,
0:40:17 my parents’ generation
0:40:17 was like,
0:40:18 therapy equals
0:40:19 you’re broken,
0:40:20 you have a problem.
0:40:22 And it was like,
0:40:22 you know,
0:40:23 more taboo.
0:40:24 The whole idea
0:40:25 of Sopranos
0:40:25 was a guy
0:40:27 who goes to therapy
0:40:28 and now his friends
0:40:28 are going to murder him
0:40:29 because he’s so soft.
0:40:30 Yeah,
0:40:31 exactly.
0:40:32 And now I feel like
0:40:33 with the younger generation,
0:40:34 it’s almost like
0:40:36 a cool thing to do.
0:40:37 I don’t know,
0:40:37 maybe I’m speaking out my ass here.
0:40:38 You tell me if I’m wrong.
0:40:41 But it’s way more normalized.
0:40:43 It’s not a taboo thing.
0:40:43 And in fact,
0:40:46 probably being anti-therapy
0:40:46 would be a little bit
0:40:48 low status now
0:40:48 at this point.
0:40:50 And I feel like
0:40:51 what the problem
0:40:51 with therapy,
0:40:51 of course,
0:40:53 is that it’s
0:40:53 A,
0:40:54 a little bit of a loaded word
0:40:55 and B,
0:40:55 you know,
0:40:56 who’s paying $100 a session
0:40:57 for this type of stuff
0:40:58 when you could have
0:40:59 the AI therapist
0:41:00 in your pocket,
0:41:01 whether they’re
0:41:02 using your journal entries
0:41:03 as the starting point,
0:41:03 the magic moment,
0:41:05 or not.
0:41:05 What do you think
0:41:06 of that space?
0:41:06 Do you think
0:41:06 there’s something
0:41:07 interesting there?
0:41:10 I think AI therapists
0:41:12 are something that
0:41:12 a lot of people
0:41:13 have spoken about
0:41:15 and I haven’t seen
0:41:17 anyone do it great.
0:41:18 There are definitely
0:41:19 apps already.
0:41:19 where you could
0:41:20 talk to people,
0:41:21 chatbots,
0:41:22 but I think
0:41:23 they’re all missing
0:41:25 the feeling
0:41:26 that you are
0:41:27 actually being heard
0:41:29 that the feeling
0:41:30 you would get
0:41:32 talking to a real therapist.
0:41:34 So maybe it’s
0:41:35 the verbal aspect
0:41:36 that’s missing
0:41:37 and something like
0:41:38 ChatGPT’s voice mode
0:41:39 integrating that
0:41:40 can now actually
0:41:41 make it a better session
0:41:42 than just typing.
0:41:44 But that is a good idea
0:41:45 that uses the AI spin
0:41:46 for sure.
0:41:47 Gotcha.
0:41:49 And what are some
0:41:49 other ideas you have?
0:41:50 You have two more
0:41:51 it looks like you
0:41:52 wrote on here, yeah?
0:41:54 So the first one
0:41:56 is some kind of system
0:41:57 or pipeline
0:41:58 to convert
0:41:59 an Android app
0:42:00 or an iOS app
0:42:01 to the other.
0:42:03 And this is
0:42:03 something that would
0:42:05 greatly help startups.
0:42:06 When we started
0:42:06 CalAI,
0:42:07 we built it
0:42:08 on Swift.
0:42:10 And that’s because
0:42:11 Swift,
0:42:12 usually you can make
0:42:13 a much smoother
0:42:14 user experience
0:42:15 on iPhones
0:42:16 using something
0:42:17 like React Native
0:42:18 which can build
0:42:19 to both iOS
0:42:20 and Android.
0:42:21 It’s more difficult
0:42:22 because it’s not
0:42:22 actually using
0:42:23 the native components
0:42:24 to make something
0:42:25 that feels
0:42:26 super polished
0:42:27 on an iPhone.
0:42:29 after building it,
0:42:30 we had all
0:42:31 of this demand
0:42:32 for an Android
0:42:32 app.
0:42:34 And it was
0:42:35 problematic.
0:42:36 We had to
0:42:37 take away from
0:42:37 development time
0:42:38 on the iOS app
0:42:39 to build out
0:42:40 the Android app
0:42:41 and we had to
0:42:41 release it
0:42:42 a few months
0:42:42 after.
0:42:44 It was,
0:42:45 it costed us
0:42:46 thousands of dollars,
0:42:47 tens of thousands
0:42:48 of dollars.
0:42:48 And every time
0:42:49 you build a feature
0:42:49 you have to build it
0:42:50 twice.
0:42:50 You have to build it
0:42:51 on one
0:42:52 and then on the other.
0:42:52 Yes,
0:42:53 every single time.
0:42:54 So,
0:42:55 it’s annoying.
0:42:57 I think with all
0:42:58 these AI tools,
0:43:00 there is definitely
0:43:01 the possibility
0:43:02 to build something
0:43:04 that lets you
0:43:05 upload the code base
0:43:07 to one native project
0:43:08 and then it will
0:43:09 convert it
0:43:10 to the other.
0:43:10 Now,
0:43:11 right now,
0:43:12 I think
0:43:14 AI can probably
0:43:15 do 90%
0:43:16 of the work
0:43:17 but there will need
0:43:18 to be a tiny bit
0:43:19 of human intervention
0:43:20 so maybe this would be
0:43:21 best done
0:43:22 as an agency.
0:43:23 that’s very AI-powered
0:43:24 at the moment
0:43:25 but very soon
0:43:26 it’s going to be
0:43:26 something where
0:43:27 an AI agent
0:43:29 can do it all
0:43:29 for you.
0:43:30 Yeah,
0:43:30 that’s a really
0:43:31 good idea.
0:43:32 We used to use
0:43:32 something,
0:43:34 I had an app
0:43:34 like years ago,
0:43:35 a roommate’s app,
0:43:37 a roommate finding app
0:43:38 and what was it called
0:43:38 where we used something
0:43:40 that turned a web app
0:43:41 into an iPhone app?
0:43:41 I mean,
0:43:42 there’s been a lot
0:43:42 of tools like that.
0:43:43 And they were horrible.
0:43:44 Like,
0:43:44 it was like,
0:43:46 it was really bad
0:43:47 but they were huge companies.
0:43:48 Yeah,
0:43:49 yeah,
0:43:49 yeah,
0:43:50 because this is a problem,
0:43:50 right?
0:43:50 Like,
0:43:52 you have to maintain
0:43:54 every feature
0:43:55 you have to build
0:43:55 twice.
0:43:57 Every platform
0:43:58 has its own bugs
0:43:59 and you basically
0:43:59 have to hire
0:44:00 double the number
0:44:00 of people
0:44:01 because the Android
0:44:01 guy focused on Android
0:44:02 and the iOS guy
0:44:03 focused on iOS
0:44:03 and so now you have
0:44:04 more head count.
0:44:05 And so you always
0:44:06 want this thing
0:44:07 that’s like,
0:44:08 but you need,
0:44:09 but still,
0:44:09 you’re right,
0:44:11 like having it be native
0:44:12 actually results
0:44:13 in a better user experience,
0:44:14 more stickiness,
0:44:15 more revenue,
0:44:15 et cetera.
0:44:16 so if you try
0:44:17 to do the web app
0:44:18 thing and you just
0:44:18 put a web app
0:44:19 and you try to wrap it,
0:44:20 it doesn’t work
0:44:21 as well as doing
0:44:22 a native app.
0:44:24 And so you’re right
0:44:24 that basically AI
0:44:25 coding is getting
0:44:26 so good
0:44:27 that you could do
0:44:28 70,
0:44:28 80,
0:44:30 90% of the code
0:44:30 transfer
0:44:32 just through AI
0:44:33 and then maybe
0:44:35 you do it
0:44:35 as an agency
0:44:35 or you have
0:44:36 one person
0:44:37 who’s doing
0:44:37 that last,
0:44:38 kind of the last
0:44:38 mile to get it
0:44:39 to work well.
0:44:41 That’s cool.
0:44:41 What about this
0:44:42 remotely configurable
0:44:43 onboarding flows?
0:44:44 this sounds like
0:44:45 to use a framework,
0:44:45 you know,
0:44:46 it’s a paper cut
0:44:47 you have,
0:44:47 right?
0:44:48 So some of the best
0:44:49 places to find
0:44:50 startup ideas
0:44:51 is you’re trying
0:44:51 to do a startup
0:44:53 and in the process
0:44:54 of trying to do it,
0:44:55 you run into something
0:44:55 that’s like,
0:44:55 God,
0:44:56 I wish somebody
0:44:57 had just built this
0:44:58 and maybe you build it
0:44:59 in-house
0:45:00 or you just keep
0:45:01 dealing with the pain
0:45:02 and that’s a very good
0:45:03 source for startup ideas.
0:45:05 Yes,
0:45:06 I have heard that
0:45:07 piece of advice
0:45:08 to work at a startup
0:45:10 to come up with new ideas
0:45:11 and it’s 100% true.
0:45:13 So while working
0:45:14 on Cal.ai
0:45:15 and then a few other apps
0:45:16 before Cal.ai
0:45:18 while I was learning
0:45:19 how the whole
0:45:20 consumer app space works,
0:45:22 every app
0:45:23 you have to build out
0:45:24 the onboarding flow.
0:45:25 Every popular app
0:45:26 on the app store
0:45:26 has one.
0:45:28 It generally will ask
0:45:29 the questions
0:45:30 that are either required
0:45:31 to set up your account
0:45:34 or simply to prime you
0:45:35 for what’s coming
0:45:37 to explain something
0:45:38 that’s going on
0:45:39 in the app
0:45:40 or to ask you questions
0:45:42 that set your mind
0:45:43 in the right direction
0:45:45 to maybe help you convert
0:45:46 when they actually
0:45:47 hit you with a paywall.
0:45:49 And
0:45:52 there is no good solution
0:45:52 right now
0:45:53 to build these.
0:45:55 Everyone has to do it
0:45:55 custom
0:45:57 in their own code base.
0:45:58 But someone could
0:46:00 really easily
0:46:01 make a system
0:46:01 where
0:46:03 anyone can
0:46:04 swap out
0:46:04 the questions
0:46:06 remotely
0:46:07 do A-B tests
0:46:08 on these
0:46:09 which
0:46:10 another problem here
0:46:11 is that
0:46:12 anytime you want to
0:46:13 test out something new
0:46:14 within your
0:46:15 onboarding flow
0:46:16 or within your app
0:46:16 in general
0:46:18 you have to submit
0:46:19 an update to the app store
0:46:20 which could take a few days.
0:46:22 So building out a system
0:46:22 where you can
0:46:23 build out
0:46:24 the whole onboarding
0:46:24 survey questions
0:46:26 and then also
0:46:27 change
0:46:28 what the screens are
0:46:29 see how that affects
0:46:30 conversion rates
0:46:31 see how that affects
0:46:32 completion rate
0:46:33 drop-off rate
0:46:34 remotely
0:46:35 would be huge.
0:46:36 Are you
0:46:38 the type of person
0:46:38 that
0:46:39 even though you have
0:46:40 a full-time gig
0:46:42 you are experimenting
0:46:42 on new ideas
0:46:43 that are unrelated
0:46:44 to Cal AI?
0:46:45 So
0:46:48 for the last few months
0:46:49 I kind of was.
0:46:50 We
0:46:52 were
0:46:53 orienting ourselves
0:46:54 as an app studio
0:46:55 very briefly
0:46:57 and the idea
0:46:57 behind that
0:46:58 was that
0:46:59 our real sauce
0:47:00 was in our marketing
0:47:01 not in our
0:47:02 app development
0:47:03 and so we could
0:47:04 build a bunch
0:47:05 of these other
0:47:06 AI apps
0:47:07 spin them up
0:47:07 apply the same
0:47:08 marketing
0:47:09 and blow them up
0:47:10 really fast
0:47:11 but
0:47:12 at the scale
0:47:13 Cal AI
0:47:13 is
0:47:14 and the rate
0:47:15 it’s growing
0:47:16 we realized
0:47:17 pretty quickly
0:47:17 that
0:47:18 it made more sense
0:47:20 to stay full-time
0:47:20 on Cal AI
0:47:21 because
0:47:22 the same time
0:47:22 it would take
0:47:23 to build another app
0:47:24 and scale it
0:47:25 to six figures revenue
0:47:26 we could have
0:47:27 added an additional
0:47:28 seven figures
0:47:29 in revenue
0:47:30 to Cal AI
0:47:31 just because
0:47:32 everything boosts
0:47:32 each other
0:47:33 increasing retention
0:47:35 will increase
0:47:35 LTV
0:47:36 and as we
0:47:37 increase retention
0:47:38 we could increase
0:47:39 a funnel
0:47:40 so one plus one
0:47:41 can equal three
0:47:42 instead of two
0:47:43 I think that is
0:47:44 totally the right move
0:47:45 is there anything
0:47:46 Zach
0:47:46 you know
0:47:47 Sean and I are parents
0:47:48 and there’s a lot of people
0:47:48 who listen to this
0:47:49 who are parents
0:47:50 is there anything
0:47:51 that you
0:47:52 you seem
0:47:52 traditionally
0:47:53 obviously you’re
0:47:54 traditionally successful
0:47:55 but you also seem
0:47:56 like
0:47:58 you’re very thoughtful
0:47:59 I think
0:48:00 well spoken
0:48:00 thoughtful
0:48:01 like you seem
0:48:02 like you’d be
0:48:02 a good son
0:48:03 regardless
0:48:03 thank you
0:48:05 regardless of
0:48:05 if you
0:48:06 who cares
0:48:07 about this app
0:48:07 you know
0:48:07 like you
0:48:08 you
0:48:10 have your shit
0:48:10 together
0:48:11 at a very young age
0:48:12 emotionally
0:48:13 what do you think
0:48:14 that your parents
0:48:14 did
0:48:15 that set you up
0:48:17 to have this
0:48:18 success
0:48:20 or do you think
0:48:20 that
0:48:21 and this sounds
0:48:21 like a douchey
0:48:22 thing to say
0:48:23 were you just born
0:48:23 you know
0:48:24 interested
0:48:25 into this stuff
0:48:25 at a young age
0:48:26 you know
0:48:26 like there’s a lot
0:48:27 of like self-directed
0:48:27 people
0:48:30 I have four siblings
0:48:31 I am the second
0:48:32 oldest
0:48:33 and
0:48:35 from a young age
0:48:36 I was
0:48:38 very wired
0:48:39 to
0:48:40 want freedom
0:48:42 and I think
0:48:42 it becomes
0:48:43 I think it comes
0:48:44 from my siblings
0:48:45 if I wanted to
0:48:46 buy something
0:48:47 my parents would
0:48:48 have to buy
0:48:48 something for all
0:48:49 my siblings
0:48:50 so they wouldn’t
0:48:50 do it
0:48:51 I would have to
0:48:52 find the way
0:48:53 to pay for it
0:48:53 myself
0:48:54 that’s
0:48:54 what made
0:48:55 me start
0:48:55 teaching coding
0:48:56 lessons
0:48:57 at such a young
0:48:57 age
0:48:58 to earn money
0:48:59 and
0:49:02 related to that
0:49:03 I actually have a story
0:49:05 that when I was
0:49:05 10 years old
0:49:08 I wanted to
0:49:09 cook scrambled eggs
0:49:10 by myself
0:49:12 I don’t know
0:49:13 what it was
0:49:14 but I really wanted
0:49:14 independence
0:49:15 and freedom
0:49:16 so the independence
0:49:17 to just cook
0:49:17 myself breakfast
0:49:19 at 10
0:49:19 could have
0:49:20 burned the house
0:49:20 down
0:49:21 so my mom
0:49:22 didn’t let
0:49:22 me
0:49:24 and I got
0:49:25 so mad
0:49:26 about this
0:49:27 that she didn’t
0:49:27 trust me
0:49:29 to cook eggs
0:49:30 on my own
0:49:31 because she was
0:49:31 taking care of
0:49:32 my other siblings
0:49:33 getting them
0:49:33 ready for school
0:49:35 that I actually
0:49:35 ran away
0:49:37 from my house
0:49:38 and I ran
0:49:40 probably 15 minutes
0:49:41 from my house
0:49:43 to a local
0:49:44 soccer field
0:49:45 and the police
0:49:46 were called
0:49:46 I actually
0:49:47 got picked up
0:49:48 by them
0:49:48 and brought
0:49:49 back home
0:49:50 I was going
0:49:50 to come home
0:49:51 eventually
0:49:52 but you know
0:49:52 I did run
0:49:53 away
0:49:54 and
0:49:57 it’s really
0:49:58 been the freedom
0:49:58 that has been
0:49:59 the driving force
0:50:00 behind everything
0:50:02 the yearning
0:50:03 for freedom
0:50:04 well but you
0:50:05 have that now
0:50:07 somewhat
0:50:09 I still feel
0:50:10 confined
0:50:10 honestly
0:50:11 by being in
0:50:11 high school
0:50:12 I haven’t
0:50:13 dropped out
0:50:14 and I
0:50:15 want to
0:50:16 go to
0:50:17 college
0:50:19 just for the
0:50:19 social life
0:50:20 not obviously
0:50:21 to get a job
0:50:22 so
0:50:24 I feel
0:50:25 I always feel
0:50:26 almost trapped
0:50:27 in situations
0:50:27 where
0:50:28 the outcome
0:50:30 is determinant
0:50:31 on what someone
0:50:32 else decides
0:50:32 for me
0:50:33 not something
0:50:34 that I can
0:50:34 control for myself
0:50:35 and someone
0:50:36 has to accept
0:50:37 me into the
0:50:37 college
0:50:38 if I let my
0:50:39 grades drop
0:50:39 in high school
0:50:40 then they could
0:50:41 rescind me
0:50:42 even if I get
0:50:43 into the school
0:50:44 and I hate
0:50:44 that
0:50:45 but right
0:50:45 now
0:50:46 for the next
0:50:47 year at least
0:50:48 I think I have
0:50:48 to make that
0:50:49 sacrifice
0:50:50 and then when
0:50:50 I’m in college
0:50:51 I want to make
0:50:51 a good group
0:50:52 of friends
0:50:52 then drop out
0:50:52 so you’re
0:50:54 going to go
0:50:55 what’s your
0:50:56 GPA right now
0:50:57 my GPA
0:50:58 is a 4.0
0:50:59 and I do
0:50:59 want to go
0:51:01 what did you
0:51:02 get the SATs
0:51:02 yeah
0:51:04 so I took
0:51:05 the ACT
0:51:06 and I got
0:51:07 a 34
0:51:08 okay
0:51:09 so that’s
0:51:09 very good
0:51:09 I think
0:51:10 right
0:51:10 yeah
0:51:10 it’s like
0:51:11 two points
0:51:11 away from
0:51:12 it’s like
0:51:12 a 90
0:51:13 it’s a
0:51:14 99 percentile
0:51:14 98 percentile
0:51:15 okay
0:51:16 so you’re
0:51:16 you’re
0:51:16 you haven’t
0:51:17 like neglected
0:51:17 school
0:51:18 you got a
0:51:18 4.0
0:51:19 and you
0:51:19 did
0:51:20 doing this
0:51:21 with school
0:51:21 I’m working
0:51:22 hard in school
0:51:23 I’m not
0:51:24 by the way
0:51:24 it’s
0:51:25 it’s
0:51:25 it’s
0:51:25 noon
0:51:26 on a Monday
0:51:26 where
0:51:27 where
0:51:28 where are you
0:51:29 right now
0:51:30 I actually
0:51:30 I actually
0:51:30 skipped
0:51:31 class
0:51:31 to do
0:51:31 this
0:51:32 podcast
0:51:32 let’s
0:51:33 go
0:51:35 sorry
0:51:35 miss
0:51:36 bigger
0:51:36 staff
0:51:37 the boys
0:51:38 are calling
0:51:39 are you
0:51:40 at school
0:51:40 right now
0:51:40 are you
0:51:40 home
0:51:41 no I
0:51:41 left
0:51:42 school
0:51:42 I’m home
0:51:43 right now
0:51:44 and you
0:51:45 told your
0:51:45 parents
0:51:45 it’s because
0:51:46 there’s
0:51:46 this podcast
0:51:46 I want
0:51:47 to go on
0:51:47 and it’s
0:51:47 gonna be
0:51:47 good for
0:51:48 business
0:51:48 yeah
0:51:49 how many
0:51:50 other people
0:51:50 do you know
0:51:50 that are
0:51:51 like you
0:51:51 like is
0:51:51 there a
0:51:51 community
0:51:52 of like
0:51:52 a hundred
0:51:52 of you
0:51:53 guys
0:51:53 who are
0:51:53 like
0:51:53 high
0:51:54 schoolers
0:51:54 who
0:51:54 actually
0:51:54 build
0:51:54 shit
0:51:55 and want
0:51:55 to do
0:51:55 cool
0:51:55 things
0:51:57 there’s
0:51:57 not that
0:51:57 many
0:51:57 high
0:51:58 schoolers
0:51:58 but there
0:51:59 are people
0:51:59 who are
0:52:00 slightly
0:52:00 older
0:52:01 19 20
0:52:02 I probably
0:52:03 how he’s
0:52:03 already got
0:52:04 the mastermind
0:52:04 hand pose
0:52:05 he already
0:52:06 has the
0:52:06 visionary
0:52:07 hand
0:52:08 hand position
0:52:08 naturally
0:52:09 dude
0:52:09 straight out
0:52:10 the box
0:52:12 I have a
0:52:13 handful of
0:52:13 people that
0:52:13 I’m friends
0:52:14 with but
0:52:14 not many
0:52:15 definitely
0:52:15 you guys
0:52:15 have a
0:52:16 club
0:52:16 you have
0:52:17 a name
0:52:17 yeah
0:52:17 like the
0:52:18 grubs
0:52:18 yeah
0:52:18 yeah
0:52:19 it’s the
0:52:19 cool kids
0:52:19 club
0:52:22 it’s
0:52:22 you guys
0:52:23 are pretty
0:52:23 cool
0:52:24 so that’s
0:52:24 a good
0:52:24 name
0:52:26 yeah
0:52:27 I’ve always
0:52:27 wanted to be
0:52:29 part of
0:52:29 that
0:52:30 if you
0:52:30 need
0:52:30 another
0:52:31 member
0:52:32 let me
0:52:33 know
0:52:34 have you
0:52:35 considered
0:52:35 just like
0:52:36 moving to
0:52:37 Palo Alto
0:52:37 and like
0:52:38 hanging out
0:52:38 like you
0:52:39 know in
0:52:39 the movie
0:52:40 the social
0:52:40 network
0:52:41 Sean Parker
0:52:42 gets to
0:52:42 act like a
0:52:43 college kid
0:52:43 without going
0:52:44 to college
0:52:45 or are you
0:52:45 dead set
0:52:46 on going
0:52:47 that route
0:52:48 well over
0:52:49 the summer
0:52:50 when things
0:52:50 started taking
0:52:51 off in June
0:52:52 for Cal
0:52:53 LAI
0:52:53 Henry
0:52:53 and I
0:52:54 decided
0:52:55 let’s go
0:52:56 all in
0:52:56 we moved
0:52:57 to San
0:52:57 Francisco
0:52:58 for the
0:52:58 whole month
0:52:59 of July
0:53:00 we lived
0:53:00 in a
0:53:01 hacker house
0:53:02 we worked
0:53:02 out of a
0:53:03 co-working
0:53:03 office
0:53:04 with people
0:53:06 years older
0:53:06 than us
0:53:07 so we
0:53:08 lived the
0:53:08 San Francisco
0:53:09 startup
0:53:10 life
0:53:13 it was
0:53:15 very productive
0:53:16 but at the
0:53:17 same time
0:53:19 pretty lonely
0:53:19 although
0:53:20 we could
0:53:21 talk to
0:53:21 some
0:53:22 people
0:53:22 yeah
0:53:23 we made
0:53:23 friends
0:53:24 we would
0:53:24 get lunch
0:53:25 with people
0:53:26 first of all
0:53:27 San Francisco
0:53:28 is not the
0:53:28 most fun
0:53:29 city
0:53:30 but also
0:53:31 just the fact
0:53:31 that people
0:53:32 were years
0:53:32 older than
0:53:33 us
0:53:34 always made
0:53:34 it difficult
0:53:35 to relate
0:53:35 to them
0:53:36 yeah that
0:53:37 makes sense
0:53:37 we had a
0:53:38 I have a
0:53:38 friend
0:53:40 that like
0:53:40 he got
0:53:41 accepted
0:53:41 into some
0:53:41 program
0:53:43 where he
0:53:43 went to
0:53:43 college
0:53:44 at the
0:53:44 age
0:53:45 of
0:53:46 14
0:53:46 or 15
0:53:47 and he
0:53:48 was telling
0:53:48 me
0:53:48 he was like
0:53:49 man like
0:53:50 I wanted
0:53:50 to like
0:53:51 date girls
0:53:52 and like
0:53:52 you know
0:53:53 do that
0:53:54 normal shit
0:53:55 and it
0:53:56 was weird
0:53:57 I started
0:53:57 fooling around
0:53:57 with one
0:53:58 girl
0:53:58 and I
0:53:58 eventually
0:53:58 had to
0:53:59 break it
0:53:59 with her
0:54:00 that I
0:54:00 was
0:54:00 fill her
0:54:01 in
0:54:01 that I’m
0:54:01 like
0:54:02 I’m 16
0:54:04 and so
0:54:05 like I
0:54:05 imagine
0:54:06 like it’s
0:54:06 weird being
0:54:07 in these
0:54:07 situations
0:54:08 where you’re
0:54:08 like in
0:54:08 these
0:54:09 you’re just
0:54:10 as mature
0:54:11 you’re more
0:54:11 mature than
0:54:12 a lot of
0:54:12 21 year olds
0:54:13 or a lot
0:54:13 of like
0:54:13 grown adults
0:54:14 but you’re
0:54:14 in this
0:54:15 situation
0:54:16 where I
0:54:16 do understand
0:54:17 why you feel
0:54:17 trapped
0:54:18 you’re in
0:54:19 these weird
0:54:19 spots at
0:54:19 such a young
0:54:20 age that
0:54:20 like you
0:54:21 literally
0:54:21 couldn’t go
0:54:21 and do
0:54:22 some of
0:54:22 the stuff
0:54:22 in San
0:54:23 Francisco
0:54:23 that everyone
0:54:24 else is doing
0:54:24 because of
0:54:24 your age
0:54:25 but it’s
0:54:26 pretty amazing
0:54:27 like I hope
0:54:27 you enjoy
0:54:29 like the
0:54:29 time
0:54:30 like I mean
0:54:30 I think
0:54:31 being 18
0:54:32 and experiencing
0:54:32 what you’re
0:54:33 doing
0:54:34 it’s like
0:54:34 this is like
0:54:35 you know
0:54:35 one out of a
0:54:35 billion
0:54:36 this is like
0:54:36 a really
0:54:37 special thing
0:54:37 how much
0:54:37 are you paying
0:54:38 yourself
0:54:39 so we haven’t
0:54:40 paid ourselves
0:54:40 anything
0:54:42 we are reinvesting
0:54:42 it all
0:54:44 it’s not to say
0:54:45 that we
0:54:45 won’t
0:54:46 we are
0:54:47 we do have
0:54:48 profit every
0:54:48 month
0:54:49 it is a
0:54:50 difficult situation
0:54:51 with the
0:54:52 app store
0:54:53 because we
0:54:53 get paid out
0:54:54 two months
0:54:55 after we
0:54:56 earn the
0:54:56 money
0:54:57 so our
0:54:58 growth is so
0:54:58 quick that
0:54:59 the revenue
0:54:59 we generated
0:55:00 two months
0:55:00 ago we have
0:55:01 to put it
0:55:01 all in the
0:55:02 marketing to
0:55:03 keep growing
0:55:04 faster and
0:55:04 faster
0:55:05 I think in
0:55:05 a few months
0:55:06 we may start
0:55:07 having a
0:55:08 surplus where
0:55:09 we can’t
0:55:10 spend it on
0:55:10 growth even
0:55:11 if we wanted
0:55:11 to
0:55:13 yeah that’s
0:55:13 great
0:55:17 New York
0:55:17 City founders
0:55:18 if you’ve
0:55:18 listened to
0:55:19 my first
0:55:19 million before
0:55:19 you know I’ve
0:55:20 got this
0:55:20 company called
0:55:21 Hampton and
0:55:21 Hampton is a
0:55:22 community for
0:55:23 founders and
0:55:24 CEOs a lot of
0:55:25 the stories and
0:55:26 ideas that I get
0:55:26 for this podcast
0:55:28 I actually got it
0:55:28 from people who I
0:55:29 met in Hampton
0:55:30 we have this big
0:55:30 community of a
0:55:31 thousand plus
0:55:31 people and it’s
0:55:32 amazing but the
0:55:34 main part is this
0:55:35 eight person core
0:55:35 group that becomes
0:55:36 your board of
0:55:36 advisors for your
0:55:37 life and for your
0:55:38 business and it’s
0:55:39 life-changing
0:55:40 now to the
0:55:41 folks in New
0:55:42 York City I’m
0:55:43 building a in
0:55:44 real life core
0:55:45 group in New
0:55:46 York City and so
0:55:47 if you meet one
0:55:47 of the following
0:55:48 criteria your
0:55:49 business either
0:55:49 does three million
0:55:50 in revenue or
0:55:51 you’ve raised
0:55:52 three million in
0:55:53 funding or you’ve
0:55:53 started and sold
0:55:54 a company for at
0:55:55 least ten million
0:55:56 dollars then you
0:55:56 are eligible to
0:55:58 apply so go to
0:55:59 joinhampton.com and
0:56:00 apply I’m going to
0:56:01 be reviewing all of
0:56:02 the applications
0:56:03 myself so put that
0:56:04 you heard about this
0:56:05 on MFM so I know
0:56:06 to give you a little
0:56:07 extra love now back
0:56:08 to the show
0:56:11 dude this is
0:56:12 awesome man
0:56:13 congratulations and
0:56:15 I’m excited to see
0:56:16 what happens who
0:56:17 are like who do you
0:56:18 admire who are you
0:56:19 who are you learning
0:56:20 from and looking up
0:56:22 to like who’s who’s
0:56:22 inspiring you are you
0:56:24 just like oh Elon and
0:56:25 Jeff Bezos that’s what
0:56:26 I that’s what I care
0:56:27 about or are there
0:56:28 other people that
0:56:28 you’re more interested
0:56:30 in personally like you
0:56:31 said you listen to
0:56:32 podcasts as inspiration
0:56:33 who are some of those
0:56:34 people that you like to
0:56:36 listen to totally so I
0:56:37 love your guys’s
0:56:39 podcast it’s I’m more
0:56:40 inspired by people who
0:56:42 are dead than people
0:56:43 who are alive and
0:56:44 maybe that’s because I
0:56:46 feel like there’s they’re
0:56:47 not my competition
0:56:48 anymore or they are but
0:56:50 they’re not progressing
0:56:51 anymore so I see
0:56:52 exactly where they ended
0:56:55 up but I go love it
0:56:57 yeah I get it you sick
0:56:59 fuck yeah makes sense
0:57:01 they’re not my competition
0:57:02 anymore I’ve already
0:57:03 finished them yeah
0:57:08 people like I think he’s
0:57:09 gonna kill us Sam
0:57:11 yeah I think he just
0:57:12 threatened us Luke
0:57:15 yeah okay so you like
0:57:16 learning from dead people
0:57:16 what does that mean
0:57:17 books what do how you
0:57:18 learn from dead people
0:57:20 I like audio books but I
0:57:21 don’t actually like reading
0:57:22 physical books I also like
0:57:23 learning about them from
0:57:25 podcasts which dead people
0:57:26 also like founders you
0:57:28 like the David Senrose
0:57:28 podcast founders it’s one of
0:57:30 my favorites I do listen to
0:57:31 that there’s one I’ve
0:57:32 listened to recently how to
0:57:34 take over the world which
0:57:35 oh yeah my boy Ben let’s
0:57:37 go so let me ask you a
0:57:38 question what what’s a
0:57:40 thing that people your
0:57:41 age are doing that seems
0:57:43 weird to us but it’s
0:57:44 totally normal so like
0:57:45 what’s a phenomenon that
0:57:47 you’re like yeah kids love
0:57:48 doing this they spend all
0:57:49 this time doing this or
0:57:50 they spend their money on
0:57:51 this or this is a new
0:57:52 trend that seems to be
0:57:53 weird to others but we
0:57:54 get it it’s it’s normal
0:57:56 for us yeah it’s by the
0:57:58 way is wearing Ralph
0:57:59 Lauren Ralph Lauren
0:58:00 polo sweaters is that a
0:58:01 new trend that young
0:58:02 people are doing I
0:58:02 think you’ve influenced
0:58:05 Sam yeah great sweater
0:58:07 yeah sorry go ahead with
0:58:08 what cool young people are
0:58:10 doing so there’s something
0:58:12 really interesting a really
0:58:14 interesting phenomenon I’ve
0:58:18 seen recently and it’s not a
0:58:20 new software it’s not a new
0:58:22 social media platform what it
0:58:25 is is these little things you
0:58:27 put on the back of your phone
0:58:28 it’s called an octobuddy
0:58:31 it’s octobuddy and it has
0:58:33 suction cups on it so you
0:58:34 could stick your phone to a
0:58:37 wall you could prop it up on
0:58:40 your table and watch videos is
0:58:42 the purpose I don’t think
0:58:43 people actually I’ve never
0:58:44 seen someone actually use the
0:58:45 suction cups how they’re
0:58:47 designed to but it’s a trend
0:58:49 among all girls in my high
0:58:50 school I’ve over the last few
0:58:52 months I’ve just seen more and
0:58:53 more people have it now
0:58:56 everyone does and it’s it’s
0:58:57 fascinating something that’s
0:58:58 like a TV mount you mount your
0:58:59 you can mount your phone to
0:59:01 any any surface basically and
0:59:02 what do you mean it’s not used
0:59:03 how it’s supposed to be isn’t
0:59:04 that what it’s supposed to be
0:59:05 well I think it’s more of
0:59:08 something where now girls look
0:59:09 at it like the color of their
0:59:11 nails are having long nails on
0:59:12 where girls get different
0:59:14 colors and oh it became an
0:59:16 accessory realistic accessory
0:59:17 status thing that actually
0:59:20 function keep going tell me what
0:59:21 young people like like whenever
0:59:22 I meet a young guy I’m like
0:59:24 tell me everything well that’s
0:59:26 the main thing that you
0:59:28 wouldn’t typically notice are
0:59:31 your friends drinking yes
0:59:32 definitely it’s big like to
0:59:34 party do you guys like to
0:59:36 smoke weed I’m someone who
0:59:37 doesn’t do any drugs I’m pretty
0:59:39 against them and I don’t drink
0:59:41 either but it’s I mean everyone
0:59:43 around me is so drinking is
0:59:45 common very common very very
0:59:48 you also mentioned this this like
0:59:49 turbo learn thing that sounds
0:59:51 pretty awesome what else is like
0:59:54 what other who else is like you
0:59:55 out there who’s basically
0:59:56 scaling up to millions in
0:59:59 revenue just off of this kind of
1:00:00 like AI tick-tock type of model
1:00:04 so there are a bunch of consumer
1:00:06 apps that are coming out or have
1:00:09 come out and honestly I think a
1:00:12 lot of it is attributed to Blake
1:00:14 and I speaking publicly about this
1:00:16 showing that it’s really possible in
1:00:17 the app space so new apps like
1:00:20 quitter which is an app designed to
1:00:24 help men quit porn with all of
1:00:28 these little social or like by
1:00:29 having streaks essentially to
1:00:31 gamify the whole experience so
1:00:33 that’s a new one that just came
1:00:36 out you inspired these guys I’m
1:00:38 friends with the founder and he was
1:00:40 inspired to get into the app space
1:00:41 by seeing Cal AI really take off he
1:00:43 was with me in the early days that’s
1:00:45 cool it’s got five thousand five
1:00:47 thousand reviews on on iPhone it’s
1:00:50 pretty good yeah so they’re on track
1:00:51 to make over a million dollars this
1:00:54 year I think consumer apps right now
1:00:56 are like the new drop shipping you
1:00:59 know Sean has said this once where he
1:01:01 was like you know Sean was like I’m a
1:01:02 content creator you know he’s got
1:01:03 newsletters and Twitter and podcasts
1:01:07 but these tick-tock guys it’s as if you
1:01:09 know I am really good at riding horses
1:01:11 but along comes Henry Ford and it’s
1:01:13 just it’s just the cars are no
1:01:15 comparison you know I can’t there’s
1:01:16 no way my horse and I are going to
1:01:18 outrun even the the crappiest car
1:01:21 this is one of those moments that I’m
1:01:24 having right now talking to you so like
1:01:26 for a long time Sean and I our
1:01:28 friends will do drop shipping you know
1:01:30 when we were 25 that was the thing is
1:01:32 like create like a drop shipping site
1:01:34 and people still do things like that
1:01:38 seeing what you’re doing with tech and
1:01:41 influencers is so much better than like
1:01:44 you even look mr you even make mr
1:01:46 beast look old you know what I mean
1:01:48 like chocolate like what that’s crazy
1:01:50 makeup you know what I mean but dude
1:01:52 people used to look at me and Sam when
1:01:54 we were like so we met when we were I
1:01:55 was probably 24 25 we were the
1:01:58 prodigies and it was like probably
1:02:00 that’s very generous but what I mean is
1:02:01 like it’d be like if there was
1:02:03 something on the on the fringe or the
1:02:05 edge about either growth hacking or
1:02:07 a clever way to make money usually it
1:02:08 was us who knew it and people would
1:02:10 ask us about it like I remember having
1:02:12 like about it the Atlantic the
1:02:13 publisher come to my office and they’re
1:02:14 like newsletters and I’m like yeah
1:02:17 like it’s a thing that’s old news now
1:02:18 these guys are so much better and we
1:02:20 are that person now I’m going to go to
1:02:21 his office and be like just tell me
1:02:24 everything it’s something that always
1:02:26 happens it’s going to happen to me too
1:02:28 I know that every year I age I am
1:02:30 becoming exponentially less
1:02:32 impressive and there’s someone that’s
1:02:35 going to come and be the next big thing
1:02:39 the growth hacker that is in the front
1:02:42 of everything I think it’s just about
1:02:45 building momentum and I’m pretty
1:02:48 obsessed with this idea of making sure
1:02:51 that everything I work on will 10x the
1:02:53 previous thing so that I’m always
1:02:55 moving forward towards a bigger goal
1:02:57 you actually mentioned Mr. Beast he’s
1:02:59 actually someone who greatly inspires me
1:03:01 I love the podcast that you guys had with
1:03:03 by the way I’ve heard this now a couple
1:03:05 times from people who are like 18 and
1:03:06 they’re like fearful that when they’re
1:03:09 22 suddenly their accomplishments are no
1:03:12 longer cool and I just want to say I get
1:03:16 it makes total sense it’s also total
1:03:19 nonsense and what I mean by that is not
1:03:22 only is it still super impressive but the
1:03:23 real game is when you stop trying to
1:03:25 impress people and so what actually
1:03:28 happens is you graduate out of the I need
1:03:30 to impress people phase and the person
1:03:33 who’s 17 18 they’re still getting that
1:03:35 high of of being the impressive
1:03:37 person oh everybody’s kind of patting on
1:03:40 the back and actually the only way to win
1:03:42 the game is not to continuously be the
1:03:44 youngest best-looking richest person
1:03:45 because you’ll never win that game of
1:03:47 comparison the only real way to win the
1:03:50 game is to realize like oh I just need to
1:03:51 be doing the things that are fun for me and
1:03:54 like the act of doing them is rewarding
1:03:56 and not look for the rewards of
1:03:57 impressing people which is obviously
1:03:59 easier said than done but that’s the real
1:04:02 thing to focus on and not like this
1:04:04 feeling of I’m running on quicksand you
1:04:07 know because it’s I’m getting older oh
1:04:10 no or like I have to 10x my growth even
1:04:12 though I’m already at you know 24 million
1:04:15 ARR it’s like sure that’s all fine I’m
1:04:19 not against growth but somebody said this
1:04:20 to us actually they said this while we
1:04:22 were hanging out with mr beast they go be
1:04:25 very careful because growth for growth
1:04:28 sake is the ideology of a cancer cell and
1:04:30 so you know growth for growth sake is
1:04:32 not not not where it’s at and there’s
1:04:34 there’s more to the game than that and
1:04:35 he’s like I’ll leave you with that to
1:04:37 kind of figure out what what what is the
1:04:38 answer I’m not going to sort of try to
1:04:40 tell you what I think is right but I’ll
1:04:42 point that out because I think for me
1:04:43 when I was young and I know for a lot of
1:04:45 ambitious people it just seems like grow
1:04:47 grow grow grow grow it’s the only thing
1:04:51 and it comes from a little bit of a I
1:04:52 don’t know like a little bit of a place
1:04:57 of anxiety I think right yes and I’ve had
1:05:00 this a similar thought to this where I’m
1:05:01 not sure if it’s a good thing or a bad
1:05:04 thing but I thought okay once I find my
1:05:06 success and let’s say I’m quote-unquote
1:05:09 financially free will I even want to start
1:05:13 something new or will I not care anymore
1:05:16 just want to find happiness elsewhere maybe
1:05:17 I have one of the tenets of happiness
1:05:20 which is I’m financially taken care of but
1:05:23 then I want to prioritize relationships and
1:05:27 happiness in other aspects so you’re always
1:05:30 going to be making stuff I’ll predict the
1:05:31 future maybe maybe you’ll take the foot
1:05:34 off the gas and one of relationships and
1:05:36 a family and all that stuff you are going
1:05:38 to be creating stuff for a very very long
1:05:40 time well that is why I’m going to
1:05:42 college it’s almost to take my foot off
1:05:44 the gas a little bit build relationships
1:05:46 and then I want to drop out after a
1:05:48 semester or two I mean I think that’s
1:05:49 really smart because you have your whole
1:05:51 life to make money but you really only
1:05:53 have this four years to make lifelong
1:05:56 friends from college so actually the
1:05:58 scarce thing is the is the friendships
1:06:00 in that college experience because there’s
1:06:03 a window of time that expires and so do
1:06:05 that because you still have 50 years to make
1:06:08 money after that what school do you want
1:06:13 to go to if I got in then Stanford is
1:06:16 likely the top surely we have listeners
1:06:17 this is going to reach a lot of people
1:06:19 surely there are some some people
1:06:22 Dean I know you’re listening Yadigari
1:06:27 Y-A-D-H yeah you can find him on Twitter
1:06:30 DM him actually that’s that’s what they
1:06:32 should do a real if I’m if I’m out of
1:06:34 college right now I’m DMing this kid an
1:06:36 acceptance letter that’s how a college
1:06:37 just needs to hustle I’m tired of these
1:06:39 colors you’re gonna get someone’s gonna be
1:06:41 like sup you’re just gonna get a DM from
1:06:45 who’s your favorite who are your most
1:06:48 inspirational follows on Twitter I want to
1:06:51 I want to basically I find you so
1:06:52 fascinated I want to be inspired by the
1:06:54 people you want your info diet yeah yeah
1:06:57 yeah I want your info diet who who do you
1:06:59 inspired by and try to make it people who
1:07:05 think I won’t know okay who do I follow I
1:07:07 actually don’t usually use Twitter for
1:07:10 people I’m inspired by that’s interesting
1:07:12 what’s your like main social network what
1:07:14 do you use when you’re bored what do you
1:07:17 open up it is Twitter it is Twitter that is
1:07:20 my main social network when I’m looking to
1:07:22 be inspired there are definitely a few
1:07:24 people David Goggins for example he just
1:07:27 pumps me up so I have people like him
1:07:30 that you know inspired by his mindset
1:07:34 completely I used to actually be in this
1:07:36 phase where I was addicted to motivational
1:07:39 content I curated my tiktok for you page I
1:07:42 only liked motivational videos and anytime I
1:07:44 lost motivation I would just scroll for five
1:07:46 minutes then get back into it so
1:07:49 definitely those kinds of people but it’s
1:07:53 mainly those like mr beast Elon Musk I
1:07:55 follow both of those on Twitter my own
1:07:58 co-founder Blake Anderson who’s a few
1:08:01 years ahead of me in life and knowledge
1:08:04 too so definitely learn a lot from him
1:08:08 Cliff Weitzman he’s a recent friend of
1:08:11 mine I think one of you know him yeah
1:08:13 yeah we know Cliff yeah so he’s super
1:08:17 inspiring to myself as well that’s dope
1:08:20 okay amazing Sam anything else
1:08:24 is there that’s don’t ask me Zach is
1:08:26 there anything else that you want to
1:08:28 inspire me by like you’re you’re you’re
1:08:31 amazing like anything else that you want
1:08:33 to tell us yeah did we miss anything I
1:08:37 appreciate that I mean it’s always hard
1:08:41 going on these podcasts like it’s it’s a
1:08:44 whole full circle moment and also it feels
1:08:47 almost bad speaking about all this I try
1:08:49 to stay humble but then at the same time
1:08:53 I know you have to speak your way into
1:08:54 the world if I wasn’t posting anything
1:08:56 publicly I’ve had a lot of debate over
1:08:59 the personal brand then I wouldn’t have
1:09:01 so many opportunities that I have had
1:09:05 I Sean my one of my best buddies Val I
1:09:07 think Zach asked him out to lunch or
1:09:10 something the other day like the other
1:09:11 day and like was just asking him for
1:09:13 advice on maybe coming on this podcast
1:09:15 but also business advice because Val’s a
1:09:18 great guy and really successful and yeah I
1:09:20 thought it was funny because actually you
1:09:22 remind me of Val a lot Zach but it was
1:09:24 funny apparently Val’s kids were like
1:09:27 were you hanging out with our friend Zach
1:09:29 like at lunch the other day and he was
1:09:33 like yeah but it was like a very you know
1:09:36 oddly a business context but anyway Val
1:09:38 called me and was like this guy Zach is
1:09:39 one of the most impressive people I’ve
1:09:42 ever met and Val is a very hard person to
1:09:45 impress he’s pretty low-key and so well
1:09:47 one of the funny things is like you have
1:09:50 this paradox because you you want to keep
1:09:53 your asset your asset is you’re young and
1:09:55 ignorance is bliss you don’t know how hard
1:09:57 some things are you don’t know what’s
1:09:58 possible you don’t have a ceiling on
1:09:59 anything because you don’t know any
1:10:02 better right and that ignorance is a is a
1:10:04 real tool the naivete the beginner’s mind
1:10:06 and so you want to keep that and the
1:10:09 other side you have this giant problem
1:10:10 which is that there’s always kind of like
1:10:12 this I forgot what they call it but
1:10:13 there’s this three three known thing
1:10:15 right it’s like there’s the things you
1:10:17 know you know there’s the things you
1:10:19 know you don’t know but then the the real
1:10:21 one that matters is the things you don’t
1:10:24 know that you don’t know and and so
1:10:26 talking to whatever smarter people people
1:10:28 who have played the game for 15 20 years
1:10:30 they will help you surface that last one
1:10:32 and that that last area of things you
1:10:33 don’t you don’t currently even know that
1:10:35 you don’t know that’s the thing you
1:10:36 should be worried about but how do you
1:10:37 worry about it you don’t even know you
1:10:39 don’t know where to look but it’s by
1:10:41 talking to other smart people that that
1:10:42 gets revealed to you and so you have this
1:10:44 paradox where you want to keep what you
1:10:47 got as your big asset your naivete your
1:10:49 beginner’s mind your your your your useful
1:10:53 ignorance but at the same time talk to
1:10:54 some well-meaning people who are a little
1:10:57 bit wiser to try to get figure out like
1:11:01 you know little little a little bit of a
1:11:03 push in one direction or the other they’ll
1:11:05 kind of nudge you and that little nudge
1:11:07 can totally change your trajectory right
1:11:09 because like I mean just imagine hitting a
1:11:12 golf ball and even just changing by two
1:11:13 millimeters the angle that you hit that
1:11:15 ball it ends up in a totally different
1:11:17 spot so you want to find those people who
1:11:18 are your your two millimeter people the
1:11:19 people that would just give you that
1:11:22 slight angle adjustment in order to make it
1:11:23 happen I don’t know how you do that
1:11:26 exactly the keep both of those but that’s
1:11:27 what I would do if I was you I try to find
1:11:30 a way to keep both I totally agree I have
1:11:33 heard that that it’s much easier to learn
1:11:35 from someone 10 steps ahead of you than 100
1:11:38 steps ahead of you 100 steps so much is
1:11:40 missing but 10 you can piece together they
1:11:43 can lift you up this the extra steps and
1:11:47 help you get from 0 to 10 yeah and one
1:11:48 other thing you’re gonna figure out is
1:11:51 that all successful people do not have
1:11:53 equally valuable advice so you will meet
1:11:55 a lot of people who are successful or
1:11:58 sound interesting but their advice is not
1:12:01 great and the hard part is figuring out how
1:12:05 to parse it and just like dissociate it
1:12:06 slightly from the result because their
1:12:08 result might be totally dependent on the
1:12:09 context look there’s a whole bunch of
1:12:12 different variables that will lead to that
1:12:13 or maybe just their understanding of your
1:12:15 situation and so trying to figure out how
1:12:17 to parse advice is like an underrated
1:12:19 skill and and make sure that the people
1:12:20 you take advice from that they’re actually
1:12:22 happy and they’re people and they’re
1:12:24 they’re people you admire or who’s like
1:12:26 themselves and they’re happy for you you
1:12:28 know yeah like you’d want their life it’s a
1:12:31 very good point all right well on that
1:12:33 point let’s call it a let’s call it a day I
1:12:34 think you got to go back to school now
1:12:39 yeah lunch is over hey thank you Zach you’re
1:12:41 the man anytime you want to come on please
1:12:44 let us know congrats dude thank you for
1:12:46 having me and I’m gonna I’m gonna use the
1:12:47 app so I mean I’m gonna download your
1:12:49 app right now start tracking thank you and
1:12:52 that’s it that’s the pod I feel like I can
1:12:55 rule the world I know I could be what I
1:12:58 want to I put my all in it like my days
1:13:00 off on the road let’s travel never looking
1:13:01 back
1:13:07 hey Sean here a quick break to tell you an
1:13:09 Ev Williams story he started Twitter and
1:13:11 before that he sold a company to Google
1:13:12 for a hundred million dollars and somebody
1:13:14 asked him they said Ev what’s the secret
1:13:16 man how do you create these huge
1:13:18 businesses billion-dollar businesses and he
1:13:19 says well I think the answer is that you
1:13:21 take a human desire preferably one that’s
1:13:24 been around for thousands of years and then
1:13:26 you just use modern technology to take out
1:13:29 steps just remove the friction that exists
1:13:31 between people getting what they want and
1:13:32 that is what my partner Mercury does they
1:13:34 took one of the most basic needs any
1:13:36 entrepreneur has managing your money and
1:13:37 being able to do your finance or
1:13:38 operations and they’ve removed all the
1:13:40 friction that has existed for decades no
1:13:43 more clunky interfaces no more 10 tabs to
1:13:45 get something done no more having to drive
1:13:47 to a bank get out of your car just to send a
1:13:49 wire transfer they made it fast they made
1:13:51 it easy you can actually just get back to
1:13:52 running your business you don’t have to
1:13:53 worry about the rest of it I use it for
1:13:55 not one not two but six of my companies
1:13:58 right now and it’s used by also 200,000
1:14:00 other ambitious founders so if you want to
1:14:02 be like me head to mercury.com open up an
1:14:05 account in minutes and remember Mercury is a
1:14:06 financial technology company not a bank
1:14:08 banking services provided by choice
1:14:10 financial group and evolve bank and trust
1:14:12 members FDIC all right back to the episode

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0:01:12 It shouldn’t surprise anyone to hear me say that I’m a fan of uncertainty.
0:01:17 After all, this podcast is called The Gray Area for a reason.
0:01:22 We try to live in the nuance as much as possible, and we try to explore questions with an open mind.
0:01:25 And it’s not just a shtick for me.
0:01:38 I really believe that openness is a necessity, especially today, when the loudest, most obnoxious voices take up so much of the oxygen.
0:01:44 But I wouldn’t say that tolerance of uncertainty comes naturally to me.
0:01:48 Like most people, I like to be right, and I fear the unknown.
0:01:52 The temptation to retreat into certainty is always there.
0:01:55 I think most of us are like that.
0:01:57 So why is this the case?
0:02:01 What is it about uncertainty that’s so scary?
0:02:05 And what could be gained by letting go of that fear?
0:02:10 I’m Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area.
0:02:26 Today’s guest is Maggie Jackson.
0:02:34 She’s a writer and a journalist, and the author of a delightful new book called Uncertain, The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure.
0:02:39 Maggie makes a great case for uncertainty as a philosophical virtue.
0:02:47 But she also dives into the best research we have and explains why embracing ambiguity not only primes us for learning,
0:02:53 it’s also good for our mental health, which intuitively makes sense to me, but it’s not something I’ve really thought about.
0:02:57 So I invited her onto the show to talk about it.
0:03:04 Maggie Jackson, welcome to The Gray Area.
0:03:06 Thank you very much for having me.
0:03:18 So, I don’t always read the epigraph quotes in books, but you have one from the Austrian philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein, and it caught my eye.
0:03:21 So I just want to read it to you and hear your thoughts on it after.
0:03:21 Sure.
0:03:22 He wrote,
0:03:30 I know seems to describe a state of affairs which guarantees what is known, guarantees it as a fact.
0:03:35 One always forgets the expression, I thought I knew.
0:03:36 Tell me about that.
0:03:44 Well, I think that’s a great encapsulation or illustration of our individual and general attitudes toward knowledge,
0:03:50 because we’re so proud of knowing, and I kind of picture knowledge as an island.
0:03:55 And after that, the implication is that there’s the abyss.
0:04:02 And his quote hints at what’s really, really important about uncertainty, and that is its mutability.
0:04:08 Knowledge has this dynamism that we are very loathe to admit to.
0:04:14 I like to think of uncertainty as wisdom in motion and not the paralysis that we think it is.
0:04:17 How did you come to this topic?
0:04:21 Why write a book on the virtues of uncertainty?
0:04:24 Well, it was almost reluctantly, honestly.
0:04:26 This is my third book.
0:04:35 I’ve been writing about topics that are right under our noses, that are woven into our lives, and that we don’t understand or that we deeply misunderstand.
0:04:38 The first book was about home, the nature of home in the digital age.
0:04:45 The second book was about distraction, but particularly attention, which very few people could define, and its workings are newly being discovered.
0:04:54 And then finally, I started writing a book about thinking in the digital age and what kinds of thinking that we need and what’s besieged and what are we gaining, et cetera.
0:05:08 And the first chapter was about uncertainty, and not only did I discover uncertainty hadn’t really been studied or acknowledged or prized in so many different domains,
0:05:14 but there was now this new attention to it, lots and lots of new research findings, even in psychology.
0:05:18 And at the very same time, I was really fascinated by this idea.
0:05:31 And yet, I was also reluctant because, like many people, I had this idea that it was just something to eradicate, that uncertainty is just something to get beyond and shut it down as fast as possible.
0:05:37 The book wanted to go there, and it was a hard sell for the author, so to speak.
0:05:39 But it was great once I got going.
0:05:44 Why do we fear not knowing what’s going to happen?
0:05:46 What’s beneath that fear?
0:05:47 It’s really simple.
0:05:58 We fear and dislike uncertainty because, as creatures, for survival’s sakes, we need and want answers.
0:06:01 We have to solve what to eat, what to do, et cetera.
0:06:15 And so, we evolved to have a stress response when you meet something new or unexpected or murky or ambiguous, and your body and brain kind of spring into action.
0:06:28 So that when it’s your first day on the new job, or you’re meeting your in-laws for the first time, or all those sorts of lovely life situations, you know, your heart might beat or your palms might sweat.
0:06:36 But at the same time, and this is newly discovered, neuroscientists are beginning to unpack what happens in the brain.
0:06:45 The uncertainty of the moment, the realization that you don’t know, that you’ve reached the limits of your knowledge, instigate a number of neural changes.
0:06:53 So, it’s like your focus broadens, and your brain becomes more receptive to new data, and your working memory is bolstered.
0:06:55 So, this kind of rings a bell.
0:06:56 You’re on your toes.
0:07:01 And that’s why uncertainty at that moment is a kind of wakefulness.
0:07:12 In fact, Joseph Cable of the University of Pennsylvania said to me, that’s the moment when your brain is telling itself there’s something to be learned here.
0:07:26 So, by squandering that opportunity or retreating from that discomfort, we’re actually losing an opportunity to learn because your old knowledge is no longer sufficient.
0:07:32 You need to be wakeful, but you’re also able to take up that invitation.
0:07:33 So, what happens there?
0:07:39 Stress hormones flood our brains, and it’s exciting and nerve-wracking at the same time.
0:07:45 But the consequence of that is that you’re super plugged in, super attuned to what’s happening.
0:07:50 And is that what makes it fertile for learning and growth and that kind of thing?
0:07:50 Right.
0:07:51 No, exactly.
0:07:58 Because sometimes we think of learning as being associational, the kind of Pavlovian conditioning, etc.
0:08:06 That’s true, but really the more updated idea of what learning is that it entails surprise.
0:08:12 I mean, no surprise, no learning is what the neuroscientist Stanislas Dehane told me and writes about.
0:08:31 So, when we are jolted from our daily routine, i.e., when we are recognizing the limits of our knowledge when we’re uncertain, that’s the time when your body begins to, and your brain begin to turn on, so to speak.
0:08:43 What’s really also important to note about this is that what I’m describing seems like a kind of unconscious response and what can you do about it, etc.
0:08:49 But actually, there is a conscious approach to uncertainty that we have.
0:08:53 It’s really important not to retreat from the unsettling nature of uncertainty.
0:08:55 We can also lean into uncertainty.
0:09:05 And I’ve tried to find the right word for this, and I can’t think of any other than leaning in, because it’s sort of a deliberate embrace of that stress and that wakefulness.
0:09:09 But it’s really important to, again, recognize that this is good stress.
0:09:14 And another illustration of how this operates is in the realm of curiosity.
0:09:28 Many different studies related to the curious disposition show that one of the most important facets of our curiosity is the ability to tolerate the stress of the unknown.
0:09:43 So, in other words, to lean in to that uncomfortable feeling and to know that that’s your brain’s way of signaling to you that this is a great chance to think and to learn and to create.
0:09:59 And people who are curious, who have that capacity to push through or to embrace the awkwardness of uncertainty, also are more likely to express dissent and they’re more engaged workers, etc., etc.
0:10:07 I guess you can think of uncertainty as a precursor to good thinking, and I suppose it is.
0:10:17 But to me, that makes it sound a little too much like a passive state as opposed to an active orientation to the world.
0:10:23 Maybe what I’m really asking here is whether you think of uncertainty as a verb or a disposition.
0:10:26 Yes, I would say both.
0:10:31 Uncertainty is definitively a disposition.
0:10:35 We each have our personal comfort zone in relation to uncertainty.
0:10:41 Our impression is that uncertainty is static and that it’s synonymous with paralysis, etc.
0:10:46 To be uncertain also has that ring of passivity.
0:11:02 But when you are taking up that invitation to learn that the good stress of uncertainty offers you, there is a bit of a slowing down that occurs to action and to snap judgment and to racing to an answer.
0:11:11 So, in contrast to what we expect so often, uncertainty involves process, and that’s really, really important.
0:11:15 And so, you know, we can take one example of experts.
0:11:27 You know, today we really venerate the swaggering kind of expert who knows what to do and whose know-how is developed over, quote-unquote, so-called 10,000 hours.
0:11:31 That type of expertise needs updating.
0:11:43 That type of expert’s knowledge basically tends to fall short in new, unpredictable, ambiguous problems, the kind that involve or demand uncertainty.
0:11:51 So, years of experience are actually only weakly correlated with skill and accuracy in medicine and finance, etc.
0:12:07 People who are typical so-called routine experts fall into something called carryover mode where they’re constantly applying their old knowledge, the old heuristic shortcut solutions, into new situations, and that’s when they begin to fail.
0:12:10 Adaptive experts actually explore a problem.
0:12:13 They spend more time on a problem than a novice even.
0:12:17 And so, there’s this motion here, this forwardness, I think.
0:12:26 I think of uncertainty as honesty because that’s involved with wakefulness, but I also think of it as dynamic, very, very dynamic.
0:12:39 The idea that not knowing can be a strain does intuitively seem like a contradiction, in part because we’ve all been taught that knowledge is power, right?
0:12:43 Do you think that cliche is wrong or just a tad misleading?
0:12:50 Well, I think that knowledge certainly is power, and knowledge is incredibly important.
0:12:52 Knowledge is the foundation and the groundwork.
0:13:08 But at the same time, I think that what we need to do to update our understanding of knowledge and to look into the frontiers of not knowing is basically to see that knowledge is mutable and dynamic, ever-shifting.
0:13:32 I mean, that metaphor of a rock is my own, and that’s people who are intolerant of uncertainty think of knowledge as something that’s like a rock that we are there to hold and defend, whereas people who are more tolerant of uncertainty, who are likely to be curious, flexible thinkers, I like to say they treat knowledge as a tapestry whose mutability is its very strength.
0:13:45 That’s an important part, because I don’t think anyone, certainly you, would argue that ignorance is a virtue, but openness to revising our beliefs is, and that’s the distinction here.
0:13:53 Right, and that centers right in what you’re driving about, where does uncertainty lie?
0:13:58 And it’s really important to note that uncertainty is not ignorance.
0:14:00 Ignorance is blank slate, the blank slate.
0:14:03 I might not know anything about particle physics.
0:14:04 I am ignorant.
0:14:09 But when I’m uncertain, it could be this way, it could be that way.
0:14:10 I’m not sure.
0:14:17 I’m, again, reaching the limits of my knowledge, and that’s the chance where we can push beyond those boundaries.
0:14:25 And in child development, there’s an expression called the zone of proximal development, which is usually used as a shorthand for scaffolding.
0:14:30 That’s the place where a child is pushing beyond their usual knowledge.
0:14:40 They’re trying something complex and new, and the parent might scaffold a little bit and help only where necessary, but letting them do the work of expanding their limits.
0:14:45 But that’s actually very much something that is human throughout our whole lives.
0:14:52 Because it’s really, zone of proximal development is, as one scientist told me, the green bud on the tree.
0:14:54 That’s where we want to be.
0:14:57 That’s where we thrive as thinkers and as people.
0:15:07 When we get back from break, avoiding the pitfalls that come with uncertainty.
0:15:08 Stay with us.
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0:19:03 When does uncertainty become paralyzing?
0:19:06 I mean, at some point, you have to decide and act, right?
0:19:11 But maybe the mistake here is assuming that one needs to be certain in order to act.
0:19:19 Well, you have to be relatively sure, or the road does fork, you know, metaphorically and literally.
0:19:22 And you, you know, usually have to take one.
0:19:23 And you’re right.
0:19:27 Forward motion involves choices, involves decisions, and involves solutions.
0:19:30 And uncertainty is never the end goal.
0:19:35 Uncertainty is a vehicle and an approach to life.
0:19:47 But I also think another really important point is that most of the time, and again, I just kept coming up with this reiteration in my research again and again in different forms.
0:19:51 But most of the time, it’s our fear of uncertainty that leads to paralysis.
0:19:53 It’s not the uncertainty itself.
0:20:11 If we approach uncertainty knowing it’s a space of possibilities, or as another psychologist told me, an opportunity for movement, then we, you know, roll up our sleeves and be present in the moment and start investigating and exploring.
0:20:21 But if we are afraid of uncertainty, and if you are intolerant of uncertainty, you are more likely to treat uncertainty as a threat.
0:20:32 The very, very simplest definition of intolerance versus tolerance of uncertainty is treating being unsure or something surprising as a threat versus a challenge.
0:20:42 And one of the classic signs that you fall on the extreme of the spectrum is that you think surprises, et cetera, are unfair.
0:20:44 And, of course, we all do at certain points.
0:20:48 I mean, we all do think that the traffic jam is unfair.
0:21:04 But maybe if you can think of it as a challenge or reframe it, which actually there were studies during the pandemic, people who were intolerant of uncertainty were more likely to use coping strategies based on denial, avoidance, and substance abuse.
0:21:06 And, of course, hey, we all did some of that, too.
0:21:17 But people who are tolerant of uncertainty were more likely to use problem-solving-focused strategies such as reframing the situation.
0:21:27 You cite some research about fear of the unknown as a root cause of things like anxiety and depression.
0:21:32 It certainly makes intuitive sense, but what do we know about that relationship?
0:21:42 Well, this is a very new but rising theoretical understanding of mental challenges in the psychology world.
0:22:03 That basically, more and more psychologists and clinicians are beginning to see fear of the unknown as the transdiagnostic root or at least vulnerability factor to many, many mental challenges, conditions such as, you know, everything from PTSD to anxiety.
0:22:24 But by narrowing down treatments to just trying to help people bolster practicing not knowing, basically, boast their practice with tolerance of uncertainty, they’re actually beginning to find that that might be a really important way to shift even intractable anxiety.
0:22:34 So there’s been one gold standard peer-reviewed study by probably one of the world’s greatest experts on anxiety, Michel Dugas.
0:22:44 And he found that people who were taught simple strategies to basically try on uncertainty, their intractable anxiety went down.
0:22:50 They also worried just about as much as most people, which probably is still a lot these days.
0:22:51 It also helped their depression.
0:23:09 And then other studies with multiple different kind of populations so that these kind of very laser-sharp focused strategies about uncertainty actually boost at least self-reported resilience in patients with multiple sclerosis who are dealing with a lot of medical uncertainty.
0:23:12 So that’s, it’s really, really exciting.
0:23:15 And may I tell one little story about this work?
0:23:16 Absolutely.
0:23:23 Michel Dugas told me a wonderful story where he said there was a teacher, one of his early patients, who was afraid of birds.
0:23:29 And she was so afraid she’d run to her car even from the classroom when she saw one run, you know, fly by her window.
0:23:32 And he did one thing, one thing only.
0:23:34 He gave her a guidebook to birds.
0:23:37 And then she actually ended up adopting a pet bird.
0:23:40 Well, he said to me, that’s what I’m trying to do with uncertainty.
0:23:53 So if we can take a closer look and understand this state of mind as something that’s not something to fear, but as something that’s a source of wonder and delight, then we can move forward.
0:24:01 So much of this is about that need to control things and all the anxiety that comes when you realize you can’t do that.
0:24:02 And it really matters, doesn’t it?
0:24:10 Because so much of life is about our attitude, the way we choose to interpret what’s happening to us, the way we choose to respond to it.
0:24:12 You know, is it a problem or an opportunity?
0:24:16 Is it pointless suffering or a chance for growth?
0:24:19 And this not knowing we’re talking about, it’s the same thing.
0:24:23 It can be a source of wonder or it can be a source of fear.
0:24:28 And choosing is really our only superpower here, if we have one.
0:24:29 Right, exactly.
0:24:31 Choosing and practice, I would say.
0:24:37 Because there are opportunities to be uncertain that are threaded throughout the day.
0:24:48 They’re almost invisible because it’s so easy and innate in the human condition to stick with what’s predictable, to stick with the familiar.
0:25:04 In fact, one of the exercises that psychologists are going to be giving Columbus, Ohio, high schoolers in order to boost their resilience, to help them bolster their tolerance of uncertainty, is to just answer their cell phones without caller ID.
0:25:11 And I told a young relative of mine about that, and she said, oh, that would be terrifying.
0:25:14 And this is a very, very simple practice.
0:25:17 But another is to try a new dish in a restaurant.
0:25:18 And I’m pretty adventuresome.
0:25:20 I’ve lived all over the world.
0:25:22 I, you know, jump in the cold ocean.
0:25:26 You know, I really am fairly tolerant of uncertainty.
0:25:32 And yet, when I think about it, you know, what do we like better than that same old clam spaghetti on a Friday night?
0:25:35 And so that doesn’t mean you always have to be uncomfortable.
0:25:47 But I think that at this point in time, in this era, when the uncertainty, that is what humans cannot know, seems to be rising.
0:26:09 At this moment, the worst possible response we can have is to retreat into certainty and familiarity and obviousness that curtails our creativity and our ability to solve the precisely complex problems that are at our doorstep, the lethal problems at our doorstep.
0:26:30 And so by doing precisely the wrong thing, the thing that we don’t want to do, the uncomfortable thing, by flipping our worldview to make uncertainty at least something to admire, to explore, to embrace, that’s the way we can move forward at this time in our world history.
0:26:35 I think I think I have a more complicated relationship with uncertainty.
0:26:39 Philosophically, I’m a big believer in the virtue of uncertainty.
0:26:42 I mean, it’s built into the name of the show, the gray area.
0:26:53 But if I’m being honest, in my life, in my actual life, I think the fear of the unknown has kept me from living the life I truly want to live.
0:27:12 And the way it often manifests is in this instinct to stick to the refuge of routine or this impulse to constantly imagine all the ways something might go badly, which really, in the end, just becomes a justification for not trying anything new.
0:27:21 And it’s strange that intellectually, I’m very comfortable with ambiguity, but in my actual life, I often behave as though I’m terrified of it.
0:27:25 And this makes me feel a little schizophrenic, but maybe it shouldn’t.
0:27:26 Maybe it’s common.
0:27:29 Tell me this is common, Maggie.
0:27:29 Help me out here.
0:27:36 Well, I would say as a human, again, we dislike uncertainty for a real reason.
0:27:47 We need and want answers, and this unsettling feeling you have is your innate way of signaling that you’re not in the routine anymore.
0:27:54 And so it’s really important to understand, in some ways, how rare and wonderful uncertainty is.
0:27:58 At the same time, we also need routine and familiarity.
0:28:03 Most of life is what scientists call predictive processing.
0:28:12 That is, we’re constantly making up assumptions and predicting, you just don’t think that your driveway is going to be in a different place when you get home tonight.
0:28:17 You can expect that you know how to tie your shoelaces when you get up in the morning.
0:28:28 And so, therefore, we are enmeshed in this incredible world of our assumptions to the extent to which, you know, scientists say we live in a consensual hallucination.
0:28:33 It’s so human and so natural to stick to routine and to have that comfort.
0:28:42 If we were just a living mess of openness to newness and having to learn everything again, we really would be in trouble.
0:28:45 And I don’t want to say it’s a middle ground at all.
0:28:49 I actually think we should live more on the edge, far more than our culture permits us to do now.
0:28:56 And so, I don’t think you should feel, I don’t know, maybe you should change out of that purple sweatshirt tomorrow, Sean.
0:29:03 It’s more things like, you know, like my wife is a camper, you know, and she always wants to go camping.
0:29:05 And I didn’t grow up camping.
0:29:08 And when she brings it up, I’m like, yeah, well, but, you know, what if it rains?
0:29:12 What if my air mattress runs out of air and I can’t sleep?
0:29:12 You know, whatever.
0:29:13 It’s just all this shit.
0:29:18 You can constantly conjure up all the way something can go sideways, no matter what it is.
0:29:24 You can always imagine the million and one things around the bend that might, you know, derail whatever the plans are.
0:29:33 And I guess ultimately it comes down to whether or not you’re comfortable just adapting to that and kind of rolling with it or whether you perceive all these things that might go wrong as catastrophic.
0:29:53 Right. Well, there is work actually to help people deal with stress in a way and this, you know, the good stress of uncertainty by teaching them that when people are able to understand that their body and brain are revving up for this new occasion, they’re actually more present in the moment.
0:29:59 And so, isn’t that really what seeking routine, you know, isn’t?
0:30:06 I mean, you know, to be anxious about the unknown is to inhibit or close down your present orientation.
0:30:24 You know, when you are able to be in that moment and see the nuance beyond the campfire smoke or the bear who really was sighted two miles away and now is a mile away or all those sort of little factors, you can begin to see the more complex.
0:30:34 And one thing that’s really interesting about interventions to help people bolster their tolerance of uncertainty is that it harnesses uncertainty’s power and strength.
0:30:38 It’s not that it’s a jolly good thing to be uncertain all the time.
0:30:46 It’s just that it lends itself to peeking into the complexity of the world, the complexity that’s already there.
0:30:52 I’m glad you went there because there’s also a social and political dimension to all of this.
0:31:01 You know, history is littered with examples of otherwise sane people doing terrible things in defense of absolute truths.
0:31:05 And there’s actually an experiment you mentioned in the book.
0:31:08 It’s the Berkeley cat-dog experiment.
0:31:12 And it speaks to the political hazards of a closed mind.
0:31:20 And for people who aren’t familiar, the basic gist is people were initially shown a picture that very clearly resembled a cat.
0:31:28 But then they were gradually shown more drawings that bit by bit started to look more dog-like until finally it was just a picture of a dog.
0:31:34 But interestingly, a huge number of people refused to let go of their initial answer almost all the way to the end.
0:31:42 And it was a study in authoritarianism and the nature of the closed mind and how that manifests in a political context.
0:31:47 And somehow I wasn’t aware of this study, but it is pretty instructive, isn’t it?
0:31:48 Right, exactly.
0:32:02 And as the psychologist who created the study said, the people who just wouldn’t admit that it was becoming a dog refused to leave the safe harbor of their definite ideas or something like that, which is, you know, exactly.
0:32:04 Like, again, it underscores change.
0:32:14 And, you know, when we look around and we see 80% of Republicans and 80% of Democrats say the other side has few or no good ideas.
0:32:22 And you see the U.S. rankings among other countries, you know, we rank the highest on polarization rates by degree and et cetera.
0:32:33 You know, when you see 50% of people say they rarely, if ever, change their minds, I mean, you’re seeing this play out in life today, very much so.
0:32:40 It’s just a fact of life that things will change, you know, the world won’t conform to your wishes.
0:32:43 And so you end up going one of two ways.
0:32:51 You either embrace the limits of your own knowledge or you distort the world in order to make it align with your story of it.
0:32:53 And I think bad things happen when you do.
0:32:57 That’s why I think this is politically very important.
0:32:57 Yes.
0:33:08 And I think that it’s also backbreaking work, so to speak, to continually retreat into our certainties and close our eyes to the mutability of the world.
0:33:24 I mean, I had a real epiphany when I was doing some writing about a Head Start program that teaches people from very challenged backgrounds, both parent and preschooler, to pause and reflect throughout the very chaotic days.
0:33:35 And it seems like something that doesn’t have much to do with uncertainty, but they were basically inhabiting the question, even though it was a very difficult thing to snatch these moments of reflection within their lives.
0:33:46 And in parallel to that, there’s also a lot of new movement to understand the strengths of people who live in lower economic situations that are often chaotic.
0:33:53 Unpredictability is now seen as a real core issue in challenged situations.
0:34:16 But what was amazing to me is I realized how much I grew up expecting that stability and predictability was just an entitlement, that this is the way we should live, that this is the skill set you need to adapt in order to thrive, et cetera, et cetera.
0:34:26 So we basically have sort of airbrushed out of our psyches in many, many ways, the ability to live in precarious situations.
0:34:36 Yeah, I’m glad you said that because if you come from a place of precarity or if you exist in that space, comfort with uncertainty may not be a luxury you can afford.
0:34:41 If you don’t feel safe for good reasons, uncertainty takes on a different hue.
0:34:43 And that’s something that’s definitely worth acknowledging.
0:34:51 Yes, and there are tremendous costs living in situations where you’re experiencing higher degrees of precarity.
0:35:04 But at the same time, I think it’s really important for many, many people today to understand, again, that adaptability is a skill that maybe we all have to cultivate.
0:35:12 We don’t want anyone to live in poverty or to be abandoned in an international institution, an orphanage.
0:35:21 But at the same time, we do all of ourselves an injustice by not understanding the full spectrum of human capability to adapt.
0:35:30 After one last short break, Maggie tells us how embracing uncertainty has made her hopeful for the future.
0:35:32 We’ll be right back.
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0:38:49 Okay, guys.
0:39:03 Is there something in particular about this moment that makes this all seem all the more urgent to you?
0:39:04 I mean, things are always in flux.
0:39:06 Things are always changing.
0:39:13 Does now seem like an especially dynamic moment that really summons us to lean into the ambiguity?
0:39:14 I think it is.
0:39:22 I mean, you know, for hundreds of years, particularly in the West, we’ve been pursuing what Dewey called the quest for certainty.
0:39:34 I see this massive, long crumbling in humanity’s or at least many societies’ ability to assume certainty where there was none.
0:39:42 And so you can also see many, you know, different studies showing rise in precarity of work hours or rise in, you know, weather patterns, etc.
0:39:46 It does seem as though things might be in more flux.
0:40:00 And so that is the time when I think we need a sea change in our attitudes toward not knowing in order to face this moment and not hide in our devices or hide in our certainties.
0:40:10 Most people would say that confidence is a good thing and confidence seems inextricably bound up with knowing that you know.
0:40:12 What are we missing there?
0:40:14 Is that just the wrong way to think about confidence?
0:40:17 Well, there are different types of confidence.
0:40:19 There are different degrees of confidence.
0:40:24 So you can be confident while being open-minded to other suggestions.
0:40:35 Linus Pauling in the great race to discover the structure of DNA came up with a solution but didn’t listen to his colleagues, hardly did any homework, etc., etc.
0:40:36 Now, that’s hubris.
0:40:38 That’s not confidence.
0:40:45 Confidence is, I think, being open-eyed and open-minded and flexible.
0:40:55 And people have come up to me when I’ve been doing talks about this book saying, for instance, one woman who headed state budget for Rhode Island came up to me afterwards and said,
0:41:01 Ah, I always used to end meetings saying, Is there anything more we should know?
0:41:06 And she felt somehow sheepish about that, as if it was a weak thing.
0:41:09 And now she really feels as though that was actually wise.
0:41:12 So you can be confident and be open.
0:41:15 I think I’m going to jump off that cliff.
0:41:20 But maybe you might want to be stopped by somebody.
0:41:20 Don’t do it, Maggie.
0:41:27 It’s also, uncertainty very, very much is about knowing the limits of your knowledge.
0:41:37 So even, for instance, something as simple as a Google search is associated with people thinking they know more than they do, even if they actually didn’t find what they were looking for.
0:41:44 And that’s really important, really important, because if you don’t know the limits of your knowledge, you can’t push beyond it.
0:41:49 You can’t know what you don’t know, which, of course, is the starting point of all learning.
0:41:53 Can we learn to be more tolerant of uncertainty?
0:42:00 Because if we can’t teach this, if we can’t absorb it, then what good is all this knowledge?
0:42:01 Exactly.
0:42:03 No, of course we can.
0:42:15 And all great understandings of wisdom and knowing and learning throughout the ages have been infused with this respect for uncertainty.
0:42:25 And it’s really important also to mention that this spectrum, this disposition of tolerance or intolerance toward uncertainty is situational as well.
0:42:36 We might live on the spectrum, we might be able to change or bolster our tolerance of uncertainty, but also on any given day, you know, you will maybe lean one way or the other.
0:42:57 So when you’re tired or you have information overload or studies show when you feel compelled to give an answer, which basically describes daily living today, you’re more likely to tend to be seeking an answer and also seeking what’s called need for closure, which is really important.
0:43:05 You need and want to close down on an answer when you feel stressed and beseeched.
0:43:23 And I think we certainly can in little possible ways, you know, just adopting some of those daily practices like trying something new or perhaps one strategy that’s gaining attention when it comes to understanding the other, people who oppose your different views, is perspective taking.
0:43:39 And taking the perspective of another is just jolting yourself from your assumptions about the fact that you do know someone’s perspective, you’re reminding yourself, you’re jolting yourself into what Socrates called perplexity, productive perplexity.
0:43:46 It definitely seems like certain people are wired in such a way that uncertainty is just untenable.
0:43:51 You know, we just did an episode with Robert Sapolsky about the illusion of free will.
0:43:56 And so that’s rattling around in the back of my head as we’re talking about this.
0:43:58 Yes, I think so.
0:44:09 And yet I also think on the hopeful note, we maybe need to make more visible the way in which our entire cultures are predicated on certain types of language.
0:44:17 You know, for instance, hedge words, words like maybe and sometimes they’re seen as weak, linguistically give people two different signals.
0:44:23 One, that you’re receptive to another’s point of view, and two, that there’s more to know out there.
0:44:29 So just by throwing in the word maybe, studies show that you don’t look weak as you might assume.
0:44:34 What you’re just saying about the power of words like maybe, I’m really skeptical of that.
0:44:37 And it goes back to the political problems here.
0:44:38 You actually talk about this in the book.
0:44:41 Do you know what people don’t like in leaders?
0:44:46 Leaders who are intellectually honest and say things like, I don’t know, or I’m not sure.
0:44:52 If you want to not get elected, just be intellectually honest in that way and humble in that way and see what happens.
0:44:53 We don’t like that.
0:44:54 We don’t like it in ourselves.
0:44:57 We certainly don’t like it in leaders.
0:45:02 And I don’t know what to do about that, but it would be better if it were otherwise.
0:45:09 But, you know, on the other hand, medicine is sort of, you would think, the final frontier for unsureness.
0:45:17 And yet there are beginning programs by cutting-edge leaders to teach doctors to say, I don’t know.
0:45:22 It’s actually seen as more positive among patients than expected.
0:45:33 In Maine, there was a program to teach young residents to say, gee, I need to look that up or, wow, I don’t know, which is, you know, of course, really almost impossible to utter.
0:45:37 And yet the word that kept coming up was that it gave them courage.
0:45:44 The courage to think and rethink, to consider based on what was actually happening rather than their assumptions.
0:45:52 You would never think of courage and uncertainty being, you know, associated or close related, but they are.
0:45:55 In fact, William James talked about the courage of a maybe.
0:46:00 So I think, yes, all right, maybe politics is, needs some dire help.
0:46:14 But medicine in business and in AI, there’s a new movement to create robots and models that are unsure in their aims, which is a sea change, a complete reimagining of the field led by Stuart Russell.
0:46:18 They’re creating robots that are more teachable, honest, transparent.
0:46:29 And here we are, again, looking at a sort of element in our culture, you know, technology or politics or language that influences us.
0:46:38 But if you can create a technology that holds up a mirror to our better selves, you might have a good influence on us from our technologies.
0:46:41 And so I see the seeds of change.
0:46:44 I actually came away from writing this book hopeful.
0:46:48 You’ve now referenced Dewey and William James.
0:46:50 Are you a fellow pragmatist?
0:46:52 Are you on team pragmatism?
0:46:53 Because we are on this show.
0:46:55 I am totally.
0:46:59 And I just never studied philosophy, which I dearly regret.
0:47:00 I was too daunted.
0:47:04 And so I’ve been an amateur reader.
0:47:17 And I just, I try to read all sorts of types of philosophy that helped me understand what I might be studying at the time or researching.
0:47:21 But I went back and back and back and back to Dewey and I dearly love him.
0:47:25 And I feel like going to Vermont and visiting his grave or whatever there is.
0:47:40 And I would feel honored to consider myself a pragmatist because on one hand, I spend so much of my life out on journeys of the mind, you know, asking what if questions and walking around and around to try to get a 360 degree look at some of the things I’m looking at.
0:47:45 And to say something or something pragmatic about that, woo-hoo.
0:47:49 I read something about your morning swims.
0:47:50 What’s the story there?
0:47:54 Well, during the pandemic, I had been New York, Rhode Island, New York, Rhode Island.
0:47:55 And then we switched.
0:47:58 And so the grand experiment was to live in the country.
0:47:59 The pool’s closed.
0:48:00 I’m a swimmer.
0:48:02 It’s really important for my writing and all that sort of thing.
0:48:09 And then I got hooked, like many people, it’s kind of a global phenomenon, on ocean swimming.
0:48:14 So four seasons, rain or shine, snow, I do it with a wetsuit.
0:48:20 But I actually began to realize I’m really fascinated by why is this so joyful?
0:48:21 Oh, there’s the exercise.
0:48:22 There’s a social camaraderie.
0:48:26 You’re kind of swimming with your subway car, I call it, because a bunch of strangers get together.
0:48:45 And then I began to feel or understand that really it was a daily dose of uncertainty, that you’re living at the edge because you might see the app or you might know that particular beach, but you really don’t know what’s going to happen even in the 30 minutes you’re out there.
0:48:55 And so I began to realize that maybe the joy in it and the edginess and the discomfort there was really just what I was writing about.
0:49:05 So when someone is confronted with that feeling of fear that comes with not knowing or that anxiety that comes with not knowing, how should they sit with that?
0:49:07 What is your practical advice?
0:49:32 Well, I think first telling oneself that this is, you know, your body and brain’s way of signaling that there’s a moment when the status quo won’t do, that this might be uncomfortable, but that is not, you know, a situation or a state of mind that is against moving forward, but actually propelling you forward.
0:49:40 Because it is discomfort to admit to or to see complexity, nuance, other people’s perspectives.
0:49:46 I mean, you know, I don’t like it when an editor says this needs to be improved, et cetera, et cetera.
0:49:59 So I think that if we truly understand, and it’s just changed my life to write this book and to at least loosen a little bit of the fear that I might carry into really new situations.
0:50:07 From giving a speech to being in the presence of someone who’s very upset, a friend or a daughter who’s really upset.
0:50:17 And I used to want to just offer a solution and give that silver lining and, you know, get that moment over with and, you know, get them on the road to happiness.
0:50:28 And now I feel much more patient and with that comes the ability to follow a path down an unexpected path or even take a detour.
0:50:40 At one point I said to a friend, I’m writing this book in a spiraling fashion, going around and around like those kind of labyrinthian walking gardens or, you know, Zen Buddhist.
0:50:45 And, of course, she looked at me with absolute horror, but I think she actually understood what I meant, too.
0:50:46 Yeah.
0:50:54 You write in the book that embracing uncertainty is really how we become alive to the possibilities of life.
0:50:57 And that really is the bottom line here for me.
0:51:07 Clinging to our preconceptions and our fears of the unknown is probably the sheerest way to miss out on a well-lived life.
0:51:09 And so I guess that’s the note I want to end on.
0:51:12 Is there anything else you’d like to add, Maggie?
0:51:15 No, I think you said it perfectly.
0:51:25 I think that this is all about being fully alive, both to the disquieting and the beautifully joyous, positive elements of life.
0:51:37 Because if we can’t contend with uncertainty, then we can’t contend with life because life will always be contradictory, paradoxical, mutable, dynamic, everything we’ve been talking about.
0:51:43 Once again, the book is called Uncertain, The Wisdom and Wonder of Being Unsure.
0:51:46 Maggie Jackson, this was a pleasure.
0:51:47 Thanks for the chat.
0:51:48 Thank you.
0:51:49 It’s an honor talking with you.
0:52:06 Our producer is John Ahrens.
0:52:08 Jorge Just is our editor.
0:52:11 Patrick Boyd engineered this episode.
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