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0:01:11 So what did you want to talk about?
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0:01:42 Welcome to Office Hours with Prop G.
0:01:47 This is the part of the show where we answer your questions about business, big tech, entrepreneurship, and whatever else is on your mind.
0:01:48 What’s happening?
0:01:53 Just a reminder, you can now catch Office Hours every Monday and Friday.
0:01:54 That’s right, every Monday and Friday.
0:01:55 Bookends of the week.
0:01:57 Feeling a little exposed?
0:01:57 A little insecure.
0:02:03 If you’d like to submit a question for next time, you can send a voice recording to officehoursofpropgmedia.com.
0:02:06 Again, that’s officehoursofpropgmedia.com.
0:02:11 Or post a question on the Galloway, Scott Galloway subreddit, and we just might feature it in our next episode.
0:02:11 What a thrill.
0:02:13 Question number one.
0:02:16 Our first question comes from L from Pennsylvania on Reddit.
0:02:24 In 2024, median CEO pay rose 9.7% to $17.1 million.
0:02:29 Median employee raise rose 1.7% to $85,000.
0:02:32 That’s roughly a 200 to 1 ratio in CEO earnings to employee earnings.
0:02:41 In the 60s and 70s, presumably a time where MAGA thought America was great, it was much closer to 20 or 30 to 1 per the Economic Policy Institute.
0:02:51 Seeing stuff like this and hearing working-class Americans more concerned with identity politics than the massive disparity in compensation between wealthy executives and the working class drives me insane.
0:02:56 What can we do to make this issue more well-known and understood additionally?
0:02:58 And what can we do to address this disparity in earnings?
0:03:00 Love your show and opinions.
0:03:02 Been sharing your content with a lot of folks.
0:03:03 Thanks, L from PA.
0:03:05 So, look, we’re brothers from another mother.
0:03:06 We’re cut from the same cloth.
0:03:07 Birds of a feather.
0:03:09 I think it’s insane.
0:03:10 I think income in a quad.
0:03:12 My entire investment strategy is pretty much income inequality.
0:03:17 I’m like, okay, certain companies have more access to cheaper capital and running away with it.
0:03:24 I only invest in companies that I see are probably either a monopoly or some sort of strange left-for-dead company that might offer a 10 or 20 extra turn.
0:03:28 And also, I’ve been buying a lot of real estate in very kind of tony areas.
0:03:31 London, Palm Beach, Aspen, and New York.
0:03:35 Because I think that essentially really, really wealthy people are the most boring or homogenous people in the world.
0:03:41 And they don’t want to live in one of five places, Dubai, London, Palm Beach, New York, or Aspen.
0:03:43 But it’s insane.
0:03:44 And part of it is CEO compensation.
0:03:49 And first, let me tell you how it happens and, two, what I think we should do about it.
0:03:49 Okay.
0:03:51 What happens?
0:03:55 I’ve served on the compensation committee of boards that decide the compensation for the CEO.
0:04:04 And this is very sensitive because, obviously, the CEO is usually there for money and knows what his or her buddies are making as CEO of their competitor.
0:04:06 And they’re very sensitive about it.
0:04:11 And it’s taken them a long time and they’re very talented to get to the iron throne and they want to get paid really well.
0:04:15 And also, compensation committee members don’t like to actually do any real work.
0:04:18 So we hire this firm called Towers Parent or another compensation consultant.
0:04:23 And the compensation consultant comes in with the following, a bunch of data on, say, you’re running, say, you’re on the board of the New York Times.
0:04:25 I think I was on the compensation committee there.
0:04:26 I don’t know.
0:04:31 Anyways, they bring in a bunch of data that says, okay, this is a $5 billion media company.
0:04:33 $5 billion media companies.
0:04:34 Here’s the range.
0:04:35 Here’s the lowest paid CEO.
0:04:39 Here’s the highest paid CEO of a $5 billion media company.
0:04:45 And then the CEO will try and stuff in new media companies because those compensation levels are much higher, right?
0:04:54 The CEO’s vested interest is to get a consultancy that will show that the market is paying people a shit ton of money and he or she usually gets to decide who they hire.
0:04:56 And so it’s a bit of a racket.
0:04:57 It’s a bit of an inside job.
0:04:59 And this is what happens.
0:05:07 At the 50% level, that’s where the average CEO of a $5 billion media company, that’s what their compensation is.
0:05:09 And psychologically, what happens is the following.
0:05:21 Despite the fact that the average pay of a CEO of a $5 billion media company is really great compensation, we think, well, Janet Robinson, who was our CEO at the time, is trying hard and she’s smart and we want to send a good signal and keep her motivated.
0:05:37 So despite the fact that she’s a fairly mediocre CEO, in my view, at the time, and shooting everyone who potentially could be the next CEO because of her insecurity, that’s a sign of a bad CEO, we’re going to pay her at 60%, not at 50%.
0:05:39 And you think, well, that’s no big deal, pay them slightly above average.
0:05:51 But if you’re paying someone 20% more than average, that means every three and a half years, you’re doubling their compensation relative to the average of an already really well compensated group of people.
0:06:02 As a result, the CEO compensation has skyrocketed, absolutely skyrocketed, whereas employee compensation, per your statistics, is not really accelerated.
0:06:03 Now, here’s the issue.
0:06:05 What do you do about it?
0:06:08 I don’t think you can put caps on compensation.
0:06:10 I don’t, I think that’s socialism.
0:06:11 I don’t think it works.
0:06:13 What I think you can do is the following.
0:06:15 We need a more progressive tax structure.
0:06:20 I think it’s okay that CEOs make tens of millions or hundreds of millions or sometimes even billions.
0:06:29 If the CEO is really adding that much value and creating that much shareholder value, I don’t have a problem with them sharing in it, even if they become, I remember when Mickey Drexler made a billion dollars at the gap.
0:06:30 I’m like, he deserves it.
0:06:32 He’s created so much shareholder value.
0:06:33 He deserves it.
0:06:37 And who are we to tell him that compensation is too much?
0:06:38 You want to use the word fair.
0:06:42 You’re not going to find a lot of fair in the corporate world, especially in a compensation table.
0:06:48 But I do think we need to more aggressively address a progressive tax structure.
0:06:56 And that is, I see no reason why anyone who makes over $10 million a year shouldn’t have a 60 to 80 percent marginal tax rate.
0:06:56 Why?
0:06:58 We need that money.
0:07:01 And there’s a lot of people making crazy amounts of money right now.
0:07:03 And we need to pay down our deficit.
0:07:10 We need to reinvest in technology and education and food stamps and help some of our least fortunate figure out a way to pull themselves up.
0:07:21 And we’re going to have to just tax people more because what we have now is a regressive tax structure because the majority of your employees pay taxes on current income, maximum rate 37 percent.
0:07:26 And the CEO gets majority of their compensation from equity, maximum tax rate 23.8 percent.
0:07:29 So the tax structures actually become regressive.
0:07:36 So I would like to see an alternative minimum tax of 50 or 60 percent, no loopholes for people who make more than $10 million a year.
0:07:40 And this is why that tax, while it sounds scary, is less taxing.
0:07:45 And Republicans would like you to believe that they’re our most productive employees and it’s theft.
0:07:46 No, it’s not.
0:07:50 That’s actually a lower tax rate than the super wealthy have been paying for most of the 20th century.
0:07:51 And here’s the good part.
0:07:53 They’re no less happy.
0:07:57 Once you get above a certain amount of money, incremental money doesn’t give you, provide you with anything.
0:08:00 It doesn’t give you any additional value or happiness.
0:08:03 What are you going to give it to your kids so they can have a Range Rover and a cocaine habit?
0:08:08 I mean, you want taxes that are the least taxing, so to speak.
0:08:10 I’m a big fan of raising taxes on estate taxes.
0:08:16 I do think you’re going to have to raise taxes on corporations who are paying their lowest taxes since 1929.
0:08:18 But I don’t think you can put compensation caps.
0:08:25 I think that’s socialism, it doesn’t work, and creates all sorts of gymnastics around spreading out all these unnatural acts that’ll waste time and energy.
0:08:32 But I do think anyone making over a certain amount of money should be subject to the same progressive tax structure that we’ve had for most of the 20th century.
0:08:34 Appreciate the question.
0:08:38 Our second question comes from Papaya Melon on Reddit.
0:08:39 You’ve got to give it to the Redditors.
0:08:40 They sound very creative.
0:08:42 They sound like a group of people to be fun to do edibles with.
0:08:48 All right, I’m a 23-year-old engineer working in the aerospace industry at a Fortune 500 company.
0:08:56 On one hand, I find that I have a good job that I could maybe rise up in, have great friends and a great family, all while living in one of the most beautiful places in the world.
0:09:02 On the other hand, the job is very unchallenging, and I find myself wanting to go after my startup dream to chase that challenge.
0:09:13 I feel that at my age and skill, my risk tolerance is very high, and I should be going after the startup dream, but I struggle to identify if that’s really what I want to do or if that’s just conditioning from the internet and that I’m not doing enough.
0:09:22 Do you think that a young 20-something should throw caution to the wind and bet on their ability or value the growth opportunity and comfort that corporate America provides?
0:09:29 This is what the passé internet answer is going to be and is going to be, go for it now.
0:09:30 You’re young.
0:09:32 Start a company.
0:09:33 This is America.
0:09:34 Absolutely.
0:09:35 Chase your dreams.
0:09:38 You know, all the shots you don’t take, you miss.
0:09:39 Okay, hold on.
0:09:40 Hold on.
0:09:44 Anyone who’s telling you to start a company without a solid idea of what you’re doing is already rich.
0:09:46 And here’s the thing.
0:09:52 We romanticize entrepreneurship and we diminish unfairly the power of the U.S. corporation.
0:09:57 The greatest wealth generator in history is the U.S. corporation, and it sounds like you’re at a good one.
0:10:01 So I would be very careful before leaving that seat.
0:10:08 If you’re making good money at a good company and doing well, they’re going to have no trouble replacing you.
0:10:13 There’s going to be a lot of applications that come in for your job.
0:10:37 Now, as someone who started nine companies, if you have a co-founder, if you have an idea, if you have a small company that reaches out to you and they already have traction, I actually think the sweet spot of upside on a risk-adjusted basis is not being the founder of a company because there’s just so much infant mortality and hooking up the printer and finding money and trying to find those first few employees.
0:10:44 I think the sweet spot is being employee kind of 10 to 50 because some of the risk has already been starched out.
0:10:51 A lot of the people who work at Prof. G were joined L2 after the first few employees, so they kind of knew it was working.
0:10:57 They kind of knew we had some level of product market fit, but it was still early enough that they got a decent chunk of equity.
0:10:59 I think that’s the sweet spot.
0:11:05 But if you have a great idea, you feel like you’ve already lined up, if you want to start a business, start it before you leave.
0:11:11 And that is, have a company or have people who’ve already kind of started it and you know it sort of works.
0:11:18 But just deciding to take off with a backpack and come back and start a company and give up a job, time goes fast.
0:11:23 And I think there’s a really decent chance that two, three years into it, you look back and think,
0:11:26 I probably just should have stayed at that company and banked some money.
0:11:34 If you’re not challenged at work, then what I would suggest, if you’re good, is you have a transparent conversation with your manager in your review and say,
0:11:40 I don’t, you know, I like it here, be appreciative, be thoughtful, but I’d like some more challenging work.
0:11:42 I’d like to challenge myself and push myself.
0:11:46 And if it’s a good company, they’re going to find the type of work that challenges you.
0:11:56 So in sum, we romanticize entrepreneurship and people don’t appreciate how great it is to have a big platform that pays for you to have that mole removed.
0:11:58 And you can make a lot of money.
0:12:02 You know, corporations are a great place to get rich slowly and time goes fast.
0:12:08 And if you’re maximizing out your 401k and getting equity participation and they like you,
0:12:15 I would think about trying to find a more entrepreneurial culture or more challenging work within that organization.
0:12:18 But again, these are very personal decisions.
0:12:23 One thing I would definitely recommend doing is assembling a kitchen cabinet of kind of sober people who know your situation,
0:12:25 how important economic security is.
0:12:27 And if you find an opportunity that you can bounce it off of,
0:12:30 because sometimes it’s hard to read the label from inside of the bottle in sum,
0:12:34 anyone who just hears the question and answers one way or another isn’t being very thoughtful.
0:12:36 It depends on your situation at work.
0:12:37 It depends on your opportunities.
0:12:39 Quite frankly, it depends on how much money you have.
0:12:42 If you have rich parents you can fall back on, sure, you can be more risk aggressive.
0:12:48 If you just had your second child and your spouse isn’t working, it’s very hard to give up that steady salary.
0:12:53 But again, a big theme here is we have a tendency to romanticize entrepreneurship
0:12:56 and not appreciate how powerful the U.S. corporation is.
0:12:58 Congratulations on all your success.
0:13:00 It sounds as if you’re doing really well.
0:13:03 We’ll be right back after a quick break.
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0:16:29 Welcome back, on to our final question.
0:16:32 Hey, Professor Galloway.
0:16:33 Patrick here from New Hampshire.
0:16:39 I’ve spent over 25 years in higher education, mostly at public universities and colleges.
0:16:44 I have been a student, an RD, an adjunct, and a dean, but now I’m a community college administrator.
0:16:48 So, basically, I’ve had every seat except the one with huge endowments.
0:16:56 You often focus on the overly rejective schools, the elites of the world, if you will, and how they need to evolve and are not.
0:17:00 I’d love to hear your take on the rest of the iceberg, community colleges.
0:17:08 We serve almost half of the undergraduate population, quietly, efficiently, and without a marketing budget that rivals a Marvel film.
0:17:19 In a future driven by ROI, relevance, and access, and where education is critical to the nation’s success, where do you see community colleges fitting in?
0:17:20 Thanks.
0:17:21 What a great question.
0:17:24 And also, you press on soft tissue.
0:17:26 I’m a little defensive because you’re right.
0:17:33 By the way, when you find yourself getting a little offensive, it’s usually because whoever’s asking you a question is right, and it’s touched a nerve.
0:17:36 And I don’t speak nearly enough about community colleges and the Cal State system.
0:17:37 I’m very involved at UC.
0:17:38 I went to UC Berkeley.
0:17:39 I went to UCLA.
0:17:41 And I talk a lot about the UC system.
0:17:49 But sort of the hero of California is the Cal State system that is the biggest grantor of Pell Grants, meaning they’re educating more kids from low-income households.
0:17:50 And it’s a great way.
0:17:51 Most of us aren’t remarkable.
0:17:52 I applied to college when I was 17.
0:17:56 I showed up to UCLA and rushed a fraternity when I was 17 years old.
0:17:57 My boy is 17.
0:17:59 The idea of him at college right now totally freaks me out.
0:18:09 And within, like, a couple weeks, I got too fucked up, fell, was in the emergency room, barely got through my freshman year, almost got kicked out of school.
0:18:16 I was on academic probation because I couldn’t handle the temptation of alcohol and sports and being away from home.
0:18:18 And everything ended well.
0:18:19 It turned out okay.
0:18:21 And maybe that was part of the learning process.
0:18:25 But community colleges, you know, there’s sort of a chance to marinate a bit.
0:18:27 Not the same.
0:18:31 First off, I love the fact that they have much lower admission standards and much lower costs.
0:18:33 That is where higher ed needs to go.
0:18:46 Anyways, according to the U.S. Department of Education, there are 1,022 community colleges in 2020 to 2021, making up 28% of U.S. colleges participating in federal aid programs.
0:18:51 Nearly 9 million students attended community colleges, accounting for 44% of all U.S. undergrads.
0:18:53 Most 72% attended part-time.
0:18:57 Average in-district tuition, love this, $3,300.
0:18:59 And 32% a third received Pell Grants.
0:19:01 13% took out federal loans.
0:19:06 My roommate, my junior in college, a kid named Mike, went to junior college first.
0:19:10 And he was one of the more impressive people that I went to college with.
0:19:12 Like, kind, nice, handsome.
0:19:18 Anyways, just a—and he had gone to community college for one or two years.
0:19:23 It was a ton of kids in the fraternity at UCLA who were like, you know, okay, I didn’t get $1,600 on the SAT.
0:19:25 Maybe I’m helping my parents out.
0:19:27 Maybe I don’t have the money right now.
0:19:33 Whatever it is, I’m going to kind of marinate, if you will, and go to community college.
0:19:37 I think that there’s a huge opportunity in rural for community colleges.
0:19:41 What I would like to see is it—I mean, essentially, there’s kind of a trade here.
0:19:46 And that is, college has become so expensive that there’s sort of a community college arb.
0:19:47 What is that?
0:19:58 Rather than going to UC Santa Barbara—let’s not even use UC Santa Barbara—rather than going to USC, which costs probably $100,000 a year when you take on tuition and living costs,
0:20:02 you go to community college for two years, which costs a lot less.
0:20:07 And basically, you cut the total cost of your four-year education by a third, maybe even a half.
0:20:12 Now, having said that, you lose a lot because you don’t have the same momentum and the same friends and the same kind of four-year experience.
0:20:16 But at the end of the day, if you don’t have the money, it’s a pretty good arb.
0:20:18 It’s also a chance to get into a really good school.
0:20:22 One thing that’s wonderful about our elite schools is they do take in a lot of transfers.
0:20:33 And if you show you can operate well in the academic environment at Santa Monica Community College, where I was going to go had I not got into UCLA the last minute, UCLA likes that.
0:20:36 And they say, well, clearly, you can operate in an academic environment.
0:20:43 So I’m a big fan of—if I were going to say, all right, where does Governor Newsom need to allocate more or less funds?
0:20:44 I hate to say this.
0:20:48 The University of California has people like me donating millions of dollars.
0:20:54 The Cal State system, because it’s not as sexy and people don’t brag about naming the new wing at Santa Monica Community College.
0:21:01 It doesn’t get nearly the philanthropic giving because it’s not as prestigious and doesn’t tickle rich people’s egos.
0:21:04 But that is really where the greatest return on investment right now.
0:21:16 I’m not as familiar with the curriculum, but what I would suggest is I think the biggest opportunity, and also foots to this kind of emerging crisis of struggling young men, is more vocational programming.
0:21:23 And that is a track for kids looking to transfer to a four-year program that’s more liberal arts, more general, if you will.
0:21:26 And then there’s tracks for kids who are like, I’m not cut out for school.
0:21:27 We all knew that person in high school.
0:21:32 It was usually a guy who hated school, wasn’t good at it, but could fix your car.
0:21:39 And loved wood, auto, and metal shop, which we’ve replaced with computer science for some reason, or Mandarin.
0:21:44 So I wonder if there’s more investment or tracks available for great vocational jobs.
0:21:53 You’ve probably seen that TikTok showing that an 11th grader who gets through auto shop, they’re being offered $70,000 a year jobs out of the 11th grade.
0:22:13 So I wonder if the role of vocational programming that foots to the economy, where we’re supposedly going to have somewhere between 7-11 million open jobs in the vocations, the skill needed to install energy-efficient heaters, fix an EV, build a nuclear power plant, especially construction, especially nursing, health care.
0:22:18 All a long-winded way of saying, I think you’re doing God’s work, and I’d like to see greater resources.
0:22:27 And if there’s any suggestion I would make, and maybe you’re already making it, is to not fall into this drunken, intoxicated elitism that you have to have a liberal arts education.
0:22:36 There’s great trade jobs out there that someone with 12 to 24 months in apprenticeship right away can put themselves on an on-ramp to a wonderful middle-class life.
0:22:38 But again, I appreciate your good work.
0:22:44 That’s all for this episode.
0:22:49 If you’d like to submit a question, please email a voice recording to officehours at propgmedia.com.
0:22:52 Again, that’s officehours at propgmedia.com.
0:22:59 Or if you prefer to ask on Reddit, just post your question on the Scott Galloway subreddit, and we just might feature it in an upcoming episode.