Can a person truly lead a major cultural or educational institution while remaining a principled individual, or does the role inevitably turn the leader into a “punching bag” for public frustration? This tension sits at the heart of a conversation between Anne Pasternak, Director of the Brooklyn Museum, and Michael Roth, President of Wesleyan University. Both leaders operate in an era defined by a profound distrust of institutions, yet they argue that the path forward isn’t through cautious neutrality, but through a courageous, visible commitment to core values.

The discussion delves into the practical burdens of high-level administration, from the relentless cycle of fundraising to the emotional toll of public scrutiny. Pasternak describes the Brooklyn Museum as a “place of reality” and a public square where uncomfortable truths are confronted rather than erased. Meanwhile, Roth views Wesleyan as a laboratory for freedom and experimentation, rejecting the idea that modern universities should be “resume-building factories.” Both agree that the value of their institutions lies in providing physical spaces for human connection and intellectual friction in an increasingly isolated, digital world.

As they look toward the future, the two leaders explore the role of AI in augmenting human experience. Rather than fearing the technology, they suggest it can handle the rote transfer of knowledge—such as providing deep historical context for a painting or acting as an “aggressive therapist” in a philosophy course—thereby freeing up humans to engage in deeper, more animated, and collaborative learning. Ultimately, they posit that the enduring power of museums and universities is not the information they hold, but the shared social experience of discovering meaning together.

Surprising Insights

• The “Worst” Business Model: Anne Pasternak proudly describes the Brooklyn Museum’s “pay what you wish” model as the “worst business model,” specifically because it maximizes economic and gender diversity by removing financial barriers.
• The Paradox of Free Speech: Michael Roth recounts inviting Justice Antonin Scalia to Wesleyan despite deeply disagreeing with his judicial record, concluding that the most productive intellectual experiences often come from listening to those we believe are fundamentally wrong.
• Administrative Detachment: Roth shares a key rule of leadership—never take anything personally—noting that presidents are often credited for successes they didn’t cause and blamed for failures they didn’t trigger.
• AI as a Catalyst for Interaction: Instead of replacing teaching, Roth uses AI to “prime” students through challenging digital dialogues, which actually makes subsequent in-person classroom discussions more animated and intense.

Practical Takeaways

• Avoid the “Neutrality Trap”: When leading a team or organization during a crisis, avoid hiding behind fashionable or vague language; instead, stick to the principles you have already stated you believe in.
• Leverage AI for Context, Not Conclusion: Use AI to handle the “information transfer” (the who, what, and where) so that you can spend your limited face-to-face time on “learning by doing” and critical analysis.
• Practice Active Observation: When engaging with art or new ideas, remember there is no “right” way to interpret a work. The value lies in looking deeply and sharing your unique perspective with others to see how it differs from theirs.
• Build a Support System for Resilience: To avoid burnout when in a high-pressure role, surround yourself with a core group of supportive staff, friends, and mentors who remind you of your value when you feel “flattened” by external criticism.