AI transcript
0:00:02 All right, we need to talk about this
0:00:04 The podcast is either gonna end today or
0:00:08 We’re gonna figure this out
0:00:29 Sam can we start I start with an apology. Yes, and I say sorry I was let me check my notes
0:00:36 I was a little pissy yesterday and you were on the receiving end of me being a little pissy. We had a fight an argument
0:00:43 Disagreement a lover’s quarrel. I don’t know what you want to call it. We had something and I
0:00:47 Want to talk about it here
0:00:51 Not just because I’m a sicko and I’m like, ooh, this is good content Jerry Springer
0:00:55 But also mostly because I found if I thought about it a lot afterwards
0:00:58 I found it kind of fascinating and at first I felt really bad
0:01:00 I don’t know about you, but I felt really horrible the rest of the day
0:01:06 So without discussing the specifics, I want to talk about what I learned after that fight. Can we do that?
0:01:09 okay, yeah, okay, so
0:01:12 Here’s the story we got in a fight yesterday
0:01:14 and
0:01:16 I wouldn’t even call it really a fight. It’s like a
0:01:20 Every six months. There’s just disagreements that we had to work through
0:01:25 Exactly and like most things it starts off as a misunderstanding
0:01:28 Turns into a disagreement which leads to an argument
0:01:32 We escalates to a fight and then it kind of de-escalates into a grumpy agreement and you sort of move on
0:01:35 and can I first tell you why I even
0:01:41 Wanted to talk about this. Yeah, do you know who JJ McCarthy is by any chance? He’s a
0:01:47 rookie football player. He’s a quarterback for the viking. So he’s a rookie. Yeah, I don’t know who he is
0:01:52 But I know the name football. So you just got drafted and like any, you know, a team that sucks
0:01:54 They draft a quarterback. They’re hoping he’s going to turn the franchise around
0:01:58 And he just had their first like preseason game not even in the season yet
0:02:02 And he threw an interception while he was playing. So
0:02:07 After the game, he’s doing an interview and I’m scrolling on twitter and I see this and I’m seeing this after we have our fight
0:02:09 and
0:02:11 The interviewer asked some she goes
0:02:18 JJ you go out there. You want to perform well, but you know, you throw that interception and I’m sure, you know, that did feel great
0:02:22 You know, what just talk me through what was going through your mind and how are you feeling after doing that?
0:02:26 And this guy’s response was epic. He goes
0:02:28 What was going through my mind?
0:02:30 What an opportunity
0:02:32 She goes, what what an opportunity and he goes
0:02:37 Yeah, I mean this whole my success in my career is going to be based on a quarterback at the NFL
0:02:42 My success in my career is going to be based on my resilience my ability to bounce back from mistakes
0:02:46 I throw in an interception. What an opportunity to learn to get better and to improve
0:02:49 And I was like, whoa
0:02:52 F*cking mindset alert, you know, I I pride myself on mindset
0:02:56 I’m a student of mindset and when I heard that I thought wow, that was an uncommon response
0:03:00 To a very common situation. I would say most guys are down on it
0:03:03 But then they’ll lie and be like, well, I just you know
0:03:06 Had to focus on the next play just put it out of my head and and you know
0:03:08 Just get better, you know
0:03:10 But they’re kind of bitter about it
0:03:13 And this guy was so genuine when he said what an opportunity and so I kind of had that same thought
0:03:16 Where I was feeling bad after a fight and I thought
0:03:19 I saw that clip and I thought, okay, what an opportunity for me to learn here
0:03:25 All right, let’s take a quick break because I want to talk to you about some new stuff that HubSpot has
0:03:27 Now they let me freestyle this ad here
0:03:29 So I’m going to actually tell you what I think is interesting
0:03:34 So they have this thing called the false spotlight showing all the new features that they released in the last few months
0:03:37 And the ones that stood out to me were
0:03:38 Breeze intelligence
0:03:42 I don’t know if you’ve seen this but if you’re in HubSpot and you have let’s say a customer there
0:03:48 You can just basically add intelligence to that customer that estimated revenue for that company how many employees it has
0:03:52 Maybe their email address or their location if they’ve ever visited your page or not
0:03:58 And so you can enrich all of your data automatically with one click using this thing called breeze intelligence
0:04:03 They actually acquired a really cool company called clearbit and it’s become breeze, which is great because now it’s built in
0:04:06 I always hated using two different tools to try to do this now
0:04:10 It’s all in one place and so all the data you had about your customers now just got smarter
0:04:14 So check it out. You can actually see all the stuff they released. It’s a really cool website
0:04:19 Go to hubspot.com/spotlight to see them all and get the demos yourself back to this episode
0:04:22 And the reason I think it’s an opportunity for me was
0:04:26 We joke on this podcast. I’m generally super laid back
0:04:28 like
0:04:30 I don’t really get easily bothered
0:04:34 I pride myself and have a good mindset, but of course I’m a human being I mess up
0:04:36 Which is why when I get bothered
0:04:44 It’s rare and I suck at it. And so I wanted to tell you some of the things that I reflected on afterwards
0:04:45 I have like
0:04:49 Five to seven thoughts. Can I just read them out to you? Yeah, and I might have a few as well
0:04:51 so first one
0:04:53 Fights don’t start as fights
0:04:56 and uh, what I mean by this is
0:04:59 You never start you never start a conversation intending to fight
0:05:03 Nor do you even really see a fight coming and the way the analogy I was using in my head was like
0:05:05 Oh a fight is like a forest fire
0:05:08 When a forest fire happens the explanation they usually come to is well
0:05:12 There was like a bunch of the what do they call it like the dry bush or whatever like this
0:05:16 Kind of the dead sticks that that go on the ground and it’s sort of this accumulation
0:05:18 This pile of sticks that nobody really clears out
0:05:22 And it’s not a problem until somebody drops a cigarette on it
0:05:24 And it it could be something that
0:05:27 You just squish out with your foot right away. You put it out. There’s no big deal
0:05:30 But if you don’t put it out right away
0:05:34 That accumulated dry stuff can catch fire. It can become a wildfire
0:05:36 It could tear down a whole forest
0:05:42 And so that was my first observation was man that the debris on the on the forest floor is
0:05:43 Kind of like a hidden danger
0:05:47 It’s a dog that’s not barking and you have to make sure that if a cigarette does drop on it
0:05:50 You’re able to kind of immediately put it out or clear it out ahead of time
0:05:56 That was the first thought which by the way the reason why that’s very easy for you to say that that’s very hard to address
0:06:01 And the reason it’s hard to address is because a lot of times people particularly me and I know you do as well
0:06:06 You have this idea where you’re like, I don’t want to ruffle feathers. I’ll just go with the flow
0:06:12 And if you do that too often, then you’re like shit. I’ve been going with the flow now
0:06:15 I’m bothered and
0:06:18 That’s a very hard balance to implement of like
0:06:22 When do you go with the flow or when do you say that’s not my preference?
0:06:26 Right that describes it to either avoid confrontation
0:06:28 That’s one reason to just like let it go type of thing
0:06:34 But you don’t really fully let it go right like 10 to 15 percent linkers or in my case
0:06:39 It’s a lot less of I avoid confrontation. It’s more of I don’t want to let myself get bothered by something small
0:06:41 So I ignore it. I think I ignore it
0:06:46 But like 10 percent of it lingers and if you ignore too many things that 10 percent can start to add up
0:06:48 And if unaddressed it’s that stuff on the on the forest floor
0:06:54 Okay, so here’s the second one fights are natural that was the second thought I had it wrote down in my little diary here
0:06:58 Fights are natural. We’ve been working together on this podcast for four years
0:07:00 I can count probably three
0:07:04 Serious arguments or disagreements that we’ve had that felt uncomfortable to deal with
0:07:09 Maybe there’s been some other ones i’m forgetting but like it’s understandable. You work together with somebody for four years on a project
0:07:13 You’re gonna have disagreements in the moment. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel natural
0:07:16 Logically, you know, hey, this is normal, but in the moment feels bad
0:07:23 And let’s emphasize how bad like when I argue with you or when I argue with jordan or joe my my other partners like
0:07:26 It ruins my week
0:07:31 I hate that feeling. I think you are a little more comfortable with confrontation for people like me
0:07:37 Like these midwestern nice people who have been raised to just swallow just swallow it
0:07:41 You just you live life like resenting others sometimes or like you just don’t fucking complain
0:07:43 I hate it
0:07:47 I hate like there’s been times where I’ve had to fire someone and I won’t fire them for a year
0:07:53 Because I just don’t want I just don’t want to do that conversation. I hate it it bothers like I like I wake up in the middle of the night
0:07:57 It ruined my night. I was going to show you my I’m moringa ura ring
0:08:00 I was going to show you my sleep scores terrible stuff three hours last night
0:08:03 I woke up in the middle of the night at 3 a.m. And I ate three
0:08:06 pieces of cookie dough from like a nestle’s
0:08:11 Bake and bake whatever it’s called break and bake. Yeah, break and bake
0:08:16 Dude, I wish I had a break and bake that would have made me feel better. I just woke up feeling shitty and
0:08:22 It’s ever my like the analogy here is in your diet. You can wake up feeling shitty
0:08:24 I at least I do this as my like
0:08:25 my evolution from
0:08:30 Guy with a horrible diet to trying to be better about it is I know when I feel shitty and it’s either because
0:08:34 I just door dashed Taco Bell and that was just a bad decision and I’m paying the price for that
0:08:38 But also even if you do the right thing at the wrong time if I eat a very like
0:08:41 A full meal, but I ate it at 10 30
0:08:45 It doesn’t matter if I had grilled chicken and whatever if it was a healthy meal
0:08:47 If I eat too late, I’m just going to feel bad
0:08:50 Right, so you could do the right thing at the wrong time and get pain
0:08:51 You could do the wrong thing at the wrong time get pain
0:08:54 And for me, this was surprising because usually if I have a confrontation
0:08:57 It’s usually relief because I’ve been I’ve been
0:09:03 Trying to avoid having it and when I do have it. I normally feel quite relieved and this one. I felt awful
0:09:08 I felt terrible. I couldn’t sleep. It was such an unusual feeling for me. Which made me think I didn’t do it right
0:09:10 so that’s probably
0:09:12 relatable but not surprising
0:09:15 I’m going to give you some of the things that I found interesting
0:09:20 The first is about this guy named dr. Gottman. Let’s call him dr. Gottman because I forget his first name
0:09:23 Do you know who dr. Gottman is? No
0:09:25 dr. Gottman is the love doctor
0:09:27 literally this is a guy who
0:09:34 Studied marriages and his claim to fame is that he could watch a couple for 15 minutes having a conversation about something
0:09:37 And predict with 90 plus percent certainty
0:09:41 If they were going to have a divorce end up divorced or stay together 90 plus percent
0:09:44 And only watching a 15 minute conversation
0:09:50 In fact, he had something called the love lab which was his research lab where he would bring couples in he would say talk about x
0:09:53 And he knew that x would lead into a little bit of a conversation
0:09:57 A little bit of resentment would come up and he could watch how they handled it
0:10:01 And in just 15 minutes predict 90 accuracy and by the way
0:10:07 If you let just like a normal marriage counselor or an average person on the street watch that same 15 minutes
0:10:10 Their accuracy was about 50 just like flip a coin
0:10:13 They had no no accuracy essentially
0:10:18 But this guy had 90 and why is that because he had done this a bunch and he he was able to identify
0:10:23 What are the things to look for that would cause a couple to break up and so
0:10:27 One interesting thing last night was I went down this rabbit hole of like what did Gottman say?
0:10:31 What are these things and he’s got a couple of interesting very insightful things
0:10:34 So he’s got one thing called the four horsemen of the apocalypse
0:10:38 It basically is like I look for four things that if a couple does these four things
0:10:45 Highly correlated with them not not staying together in the long run low married satisfaction and divorce
0:10:47 It’s like the emotions of contempt
0:10:49 resentment
0:10:51 What were the other two close so it’s criticism
0:10:54 contempt, which was the biggest one
0:11:01 Defensiveness and stonewalling and some of these were gendered. So like men were typically more guilty of stonewalling meaning
0:11:06 Wife is bringing something up. He just kind of shuts down just cut kind of like in his mind
0:11:10 He’s like I’m not fighting in her mind. It’s like you’re you’re not you’re not even open
0:11:13 You’re closing me down and I’m trying to express something to you
0:11:17 But content contempt was the one where regardless of gender
0:11:23 If you did these things like an eye roll anything that’s hierarchy, which is like, oh, you’re such an asshole, right?
0:11:27 I’m good and you’re bad anything that creates anything that indicates contempt
0:11:32 Was like one of the worst things that could happen right because it indicates a lack of fundamental respect
0:11:34 And you know equality in in the relationship
0:11:38 So he’s got that he had another one which is a magic ratio
0:11:40 Which is they would observe an interaction and they would see that
0:11:45 And by the way the way they did this was fascinating couples talk for 15 minutes and he’s encoding
0:11:48 Every minute. I think they divided into like 18
0:11:54 Signals in a minute or something like that and they had this like specific encoding where it’s like eye roll
0:11:57 Like body language turn away phrasing of a thing
0:12:03 Yeah, but like all these little nuanced things that he because they would they would immediately encode and then they would have a
0:12:05 Score at the end of it and they’d have positive
0:12:10 Interactions between the couple and negative but they’re like these micro interactions, right to the surface
0:12:13 It didn’t even look like they’re having a huge fight yelling at each other throwing and screaming
0:12:18 You know throwing things across the room none of that but even in just like a normal conversation
0:12:22 He could get that indication. So he said the magic ratio is five to one, right?
0:12:25 Every couple is going to have negative interactions. That’s not avoidable
0:12:30 It’s what’s the ratio of positive to negative and if it was five to one the couples would stick together
0:12:34 Uh below five to one you start to get into higher likelihood that the couples will not stay together
0:12:39 I thought that was kind of interesting. Um, there’s a ton of like little micro things that he has in there like
0:12:46 Repair attempts. So how do you de-escalate people who know like any couple that stayed together had a good habit of
0:12:51 Using humor or taking a break or just saying I’m sorry. That was stupid. I shouldn’t have said that
0:12:55 That’s not actually what I mean. What I mean is this a way to de-escalate in in a fight
0:12:59 It was like a huge tool that was that was very useful and that was one thing
0:13:02 I think I did poorly yesterday, which was I was not
0:13:06 de-escalating well, right either could it took a break
0:13:11 Could have just made a joke could have said actually the way that came out is not actually how I feel
0:13:13 how I feel is really this
0:13:16 But instead it was like some costs like I said it now I got to defend it
0:13:17 Which is like such a stupid way to go
0:13:23 He’s got this whole philosophy that I’m super fascinated by now and really excited to do kind of like a little bit more of a
0:13:25 Deep dive on like how cool is that guy by the way?
0:13:30 He’s great. I joke with my wife where I’ll say look
0:13:33 I’ve made my point
0:13:34 I am
0:13:40 Dug in okay. There is no retreating here. I’m what you call dug in. I cannot go back
0:13:46 And the reason I’m raising my voice is because that would mean that if I talk lower
0:13:49 It I’m losing the argument, right and that is not happening
0:13:54 Yeah, like you know in UFC fights. I remember Greg would always say we’ll see who takes the first back step
0:13:56 He’s like he’s like oh, we’re gonna fight
0:13:58 But I’m not he’s not just this trash talk was not I’m gonna knock you out
0:14:02 He’s like he would get in their mind like let’s see who takes the first back step because he’s actually a counterpuncher
0:14:06 He wants the guy moving forward. So you put that in their mind if you take a back step
0:14:08 you’re a bitch and
0:14:10 As silly as that sounds
0:14:14 That would describe my behavior in a lot of interactions. Yes, let’s see who takes the first back step, which is
0:14:17 Not serving me well
0:14:21 Yeah, I get in trouble a lot for it and it’s incredibly stupid and there’s so many times where I’m like
0:14:23 shit
0:14:24 I
0:14:27 My ego won’t let me retreat, but that is the right decision
0:14:32 Right, let me give you a a mechanic that I learned that I wish I had yesterday when we were fighting
0:14:34 I once took an improv class in san francisco
0:14:40 And the very first class instead of teaching you how to do improv the very first lesson is not here’s what you do
0:14:44 It’s here’s what you do when you screw up because you’re gonna screw up a ton
0:14:48 You are beginners. This is hard. You are gonna screw up a lot
0:14:53 So the first tool we give you they would just go she was like when you say something that was stupid
0:14:56 Or didn’t make sense or was not funny and you tried to be funny
0:15:01 The weight of the world is gonna come crashing down on you and here’s your solution ready
0:15:05 And she’s like could you all do that we’re like
0:15:09 And she was like that’s it when it happens just go whoop and that just means to everybody
0:15:13 Clear the slate that didn’t happen. We’re moving on we’re moving past that it was a whoop
0:15:14 and
0:15:18 I wish I had a mechanic like that in so many more areas of my life
0:15:20 where
0:15:23 a way to eject or abort or pull out of a tailspin of like
0:15:28 I didn’t want to go this way. I didn’t want to say that I didn’t want that to come across the way it came across
0:15:31 I needed a whoop to just be like
0:15:36 That wasn’t like let’s wipe this late clean real quick like a sketch just quickly shake it and it’s gone
0:15:41 Yeah, I uh, you would look really dumb if you did that but I agree that is a very
0:15:44 That is a very helpful thing. I’ve got in
0:15:49 I get in more trouble because of this thing more than anything else, right?
0:15:52 All right, another observation my body keeps the score
0:15:55 So I have this coach as an executive coach, which is like, you know business strategy
0:16:01 But mostly like therapy thinking through basically helping me think more clearly and be a better person
0:16:07 And he’s great and he has this see this stuff that he says that’s great that I’m like totally buy it
0:16:10 He has other stuff that he says that I’m like I get that you buy it
0:16:15 I’m not sure that I buy it yet. And one of the things he always talks about is like the body keeps the score
0:16:17 Have you read that book?
0:16:19 I’ve read the book
0:16:23 But I you know, I’m I don’t have back pain and I think it’s more of a it’s like a literally like a back pain book, right?
0:16:29 It’s sort of it’s basically like the easiest one are soldiers who have PTSD
0:16:35 They see they feel things physically and I frankly I actually don’t remember the entire premise
0:16:39 But I believe it was if you change your body, you can actually change your mind
0:16:44 Right, so he’ll ask me he’ll be like I’ll say something. He’d be like, where do you feel that when you say that?
0:16:49 I’m like, I don’t feel like I I said it from my mouth. What are you talking about?
0:16:55 He’s like, no, like is there a tightness in your chest? I’m like, bro. I don’t want to like I don’t want to do yoga
0:16:59 I just want to say what’s going on and then figure it out with a logical solution
0:17:03 And he’s helping me learn that I hadn’t really fully bought in until yesterday
0:17:09 When I felt terrible after it physically. I felt terrible after our our conversation and I was like, oh, shit
0:17:13 I think he’s right. I think the body does keep the score and I’m more of a believer in that
0:17:19 Oh, shit. So that was another observation. What did you feel terrible because you felt that I was wrong or because you didn’t like
0:17:21 the words you used
0:17:25 I felt terrible because I felt like I did myself um, uh, uh
0:17:26 A
0:17:32 disservice disservice, which is I don’t think I conducted myself. Well, I thought I actually had a good
0:17:34 Point meaning I don’t
0:17:40 Disagree with any of my words and I disagree with all of my delivery and what a shame because it’s like actually what I did was
0:17:45 A total net negative. I undermined my own point
0:17:47 What I was trying to express I didn’t express well
0:17:52 It wasn’t effective and I made you feel not good too because that wouldn’t feel good anyways
0:17:55 And I was like, oh the other lesson of course is people don’t remember what you say
0:17:58 They just remember how you made them feel if it makes you feel better
0:18:02 I I think your delivery wasn’t as bad as you think that doesn’t make me feel better. Thank you
0:18:05 And I agree and I agree with your points
0:18:07 Like the points you made were not bad points
0:18:15 Your the problem with having an argument with you is you are quite logical and you do make logical points
0:18:23 The other problem with you is that most people myself included are more emotional than logical and that’s sometimes hard for you to understand
0:18:25 Yes
0:18:28 and also to give myself a more blame here is
0:18:32 I am like a firecracker or something like that. It’s like
0:18:35 You can play with it. You can hold it. Nothing’s gonna happen
0:18:42 For like 90 out of the out of all the days of the year 364 days out of the year that firecracker
0:18:44 Is just easy to easy to handle
0:18:47 But on July 4th, there’s one day
0:18:50 That like 5% of the time where the fuse gets lit. There was like no
0:18:55 No warning and it’s fucking explosive. And so it’s like that’s what I think my problem is
0:18:57 I’m extremely tolerant and unbothered
0:19:03 Until the moment I’m bothered and then I have a big whiny baby and I like get really upset really quickly more than I should
0:19:08 And again, and I real what I realized yesterday was oh, that’s just because I don’t have many reps doing it
0:19:12 And this is kind of a bullshit like my greatest strengths is having a weaknesses
0:19:13 But it’s I think it’s honestly true in this situation
0:19:17 Which is I’m so rarely bothered that when I’m when I am bothered. I’m so poor at handling it
0:19:21 Whereas I think somebody who is more frequently runs into situations like this
0:19:25 They come they become more mature and have better tools to deal with it than I do
0:19:30 It’s almost like because you’re pretty emotionally healthy that is actually a weakness
0:19:33 You know what I mean because you don’t assume that other people are broken
0:19:38 Or like that their egos dictate things. Do you know what I mean?
0:19:40 Well, I think you’re giving me a very generous bend
0:19:44 But I’ll I’ll consider that not just a compliment but maybe something that might be true here
0:19:49 Can I read you a couple more bullet points? Yeah words. I’ve jotted down in my journal here. So there are no winners in war
0:19:52 There’s always a benefit to expressing myself but
0:19:55 And finding resolutions when there’s a mix up but once it escalates
0:19:58 There are only, you know, there’s no there’s no winner and loser
0:20:02 There’s only two losers in a situation like that where I think at a certain point
0:20:05 The conversation was productive and then at a certain point it was unproductive
0:20:09 And once it got into an unproductive and by the way, we weren’t like cursing each other out or anything
0:20:11 I don’t mean to make it sound like that
0:20:17 But just on a relative scale it wasn’t one where I felt wow that was super constructive and I feel better about the relationship
0:20:19 It’s like no, I think we did some damage there and there were two
0:20:23 There was only two losers in that interaction. There was no like winner and loser
0:20:26 Which is stupid because when you argue you kind of want to be a winner or a loser
0:20:31 You want to be a winner and that default so the person to be a loser in the interaction, but that’s a false idea
0:20:36 Have you read Dale Carnegie’s how to win friends and influence people? Clearly I should go and reread it
0:20:39 I read the first chapter about people loving their name and then I was like, this is great and I
0:20:47 He has a famous line in that where he goes the most beautiful word in the English language is a person’s name
0:20:48 So say it a lot
0:20:52 But like right in the third chapter like one chapter after that he tells a story about how
0:20:56 He was with this influential person who was telling him the story
0:21:02 And the guy got a lot of the story wrong like he was like saying this is a quote from Shakespeare and Dale was like
0:21:03 actually
0:21:06 You know that was Thomas Jefferson who said that
0:21:09 And the guy who he corrected
0:21:13 Fucking hated him. He’s like don’t don’t correct me over this shit
0:21:18 And the whole point is like when you try to correct people or argue with them to prove a point
0:21:22 it doesn’t it rarely ever works your way which sucks because
0:21:27 Sometimes it makes you feel good to win an argument or to think you won an argument, but it actually
0:21:30 It’s more often than not a shitty thing
0:21:34 But didn’t Lincoln also say the same thing like never criticize and I always had trouble with that idea
0:21:38 I think in the book how to win friends and influence people was like never criticize. I was like never
0:21:45 I’m like never criticize and I was like never how do you function with never crit? How does that? How do you?
0:21:49 How do you know what accountability? I don’t I don’t understand. I still don’t understand that
0:21:54 Well, what he said in that letter or in that chapter was he’d also said Lincoln would do this thing
0:22:00 Where he would write an angry letter to someone and one time he wrote like a scathing letter letter to someone
0:22:04 And he didn’t send it and the reason why he did that was one time
0:22:08 He talked shit about this guy and the guy was like I challenge you to a duel
0:22:14 Which was a fight to the death and Lincoln was like dude. I’m not doing that. That’s insane. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to offend you
0:22:16 I’m sorry and like it was like I’m not going to criticize people ever again
0:22:20 And so instead he would write these letters where he would like bitch bitch him out
0:22:23 And then just not send him and he was like that makes me feel better
0:22:27 I’m ready to try that
0:22:32 I still don’t fully understand how you do the never criticize thing, but I think they’re right, which is rarely doesn’t do any good
0:22:34 Um, okay. Let me give you a couple others
0:22:40 Everybody is the hero of their own story and convincing them otherwise as a fool’s errand myself included
0:22:43 I recently heard this when I was in canada
0:22:48 At the uh, Andrew Wilkinson’s event I was sitting at the dinner table with chris spiraling chris’s andrew’s business partner
0:22:53 Who’s more under the radar, but a super fun guy and he’s one of my I don’t know top three dinner party
0:22:56 Yes, the guy is just electric at a dinner table
0:23:02 And one of the things he said was he brought this up. He goes isn’t it funny? He’s like I have never met a person
0:23:04 who does not
0:23:05 view themselves
0:23:06 as
0:23:07 acting
0:23:11 I forgot exactly who said it but like acting good acting just no matter what they’re doing
0:23:14 And he’s like I think everybody from serial killers on
0:23:19 Views themselves as the hero of their story and uh, you know justified
0:23:23 Either what they did was right or the wrong thing they did was justified
0:23:28 He’s like, isn’t that crazy? I was like that is actually crazy and it was so true
0:23:30 Like I felt like when we were arguing yesterday
0:23:36 I was the hero of my story and I had done all these valiant things that were you know, um, you know
0:23:38 My my protagonist moves and then you were like
0:23:44 Uh-huh, but I am the protagonist. I’m like, you know as an escalator. It’s like you’re the villain. I’m the hero
0:23:46 And you’re like I’m the hero. You’re the villain and it was like wait
0:23:52 We are both idiots is actually what we both are we’re neither the heroes nor the villains in this scenario
0:23:56 But it was just a good reminder of man. I’m guilty of that if I’m guilty of that
0:24:00 Everybody’s guilty of that and I looked it up. There’s something called narrative identity
0:24:05 Which is like the psychological name for for this phenomenon that even you know hitler on
0:24:07 believe this about uh
0:24:13 About themselves and the problem is that then you go and like you ask your wife or your close friend
0:24:18 About any situation and you explain it and oftentimes they’ll say you are right
0:24:23 But the reality is is like you’re not probably you’re probably not explaining the situation
0:24:27 Like to where you can truly get wonderful advice. Do you know what I mean? Right?
0:24:32 Well, there’s another one I looked up when I was when I was talking to chat gpt about like what is the name for this?
0:24:38 Maybe my buddy just had this argument. What’s the name of that syndrome? What what is what was I doing it?
0:24:43 What is that called? One of them was called mistaken attribution and what the principle was this
0:24:46 When I’m wrong
0:24:49 It’s because of the situation when you’re wrong. It’s because of the character
0:24:55 And if you do that, it’s a very unhealthy mindset to have or a bias to have it’s a misattribution bias
0:24:59 And we all do this which is oh those things that I did at the wrong
0:25:02 Well, that’s just because that this was what was going on in the situation
0:25:08 However, if you don’t give that same benefit of that out to the other person that their actions were
0:25:12 situationally dictated and and not from any poor intention
0:25:17 Then you end up with this the same problem as like an investing. It’s like when I win its skill when I lose
0:25:18 It’s bad luck
0:25:22 And in the same way in a fight it’s if I’m wrong it’s situational if you’re wrong it’s character
0:25:25 It’s your you just you that was a choice. That’s who you are
0:25:29 So someone told me this years and years ago and it kind of changed my life
0:25:34 And I try to use it all the time and I’m a human and I fail and I I failed on it a little bit
0:25:36 Or I failed on a lot of it yesterday
0:25:40 But basically it’s the idea where we judge ourselves on our intentions
0:25:45 But we judge other people on their actions, right and
0:25:51 I try to remind myself constantly and that’s really it that’s another thing that’s very simple but hard, but it is like
0:25:55 Very important I think
0:26:01 Truly and dude during our conversation yesterday. It was like well, you know, I didn’t there was no malintent of this, right?
0:26:07 Yes, I know that and it’s like and you I know that you had no malintent in what you did, right? You’re like, yeah, of course
0:26:10 Well, we should have done that but I was like, what the fuck are we talking about?
0:26:14 What is this? None of this matters at that point. What are you mad about? What am I mad about?
0:26:19 How does this even how does this even make sense if there’s if we both agree that the intentions were correct?
0:26:23 Then we could de-escalate this down to oh, we just weren’t clear about xyz or oh
0:26:27 We had a mr.. Miss communication misunderstanding. I thought you meant this you thought about this
0:26:31 Oh, yeah, silly mistake on my part, but didn’t mean to make that mistake. It’s just a natural mistake
0:26:33 You know because I’m not a perfect person
0:26:37 So I think there was a moment in there where we could have de-escalated that we didn’t properly do it
0:26:40 That’s how every argument actually should start and that’s actually what I’m going to do is like
0:26:43 Can you explain your intentions and I’ll explain my intentions?
0:26:47 And then we’ll break down the actions to see like if there’s alignment or whatever, right?
0:26:52 I once argued with my wife and then I had a training session with my trainer right afterwards
0:26:58 And he could tell I was like a little off at the beginning like my my vibe is usually like good vibes only
0:27:02 And I did not have good vibes only but I was just quiet and he was like what’s up? And I was like, oh, yeah, you know
0:27:04 I started to explain the situation
0:27:07 And he goes oh, I got the solution for you
0:27:12 And I thought he was giving me the solution to the argument to the problem the issue quote-unquote that we were discussing
0:27:15 And he goes no, no, here’s what you do
0:27:18 When you’re in that moment
0:27:19 Just remember
0:27:21 I love you, right? You love me cool and we want to be happy
0:27:26 All right, then we’re good like he was just like cool that nothing else matters
0:27:28 And what he was saying he’s like what I mean by that is
0:27:31 Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy and he’s like
0:27:35 I have a lot of clients that are like you silicon valley types businessman
0:27:38 You know logical left brain thinker types
0:27:46 There is a desire to be right and it is sometimes at odds with the actual outcome you want which is
0:27:50 Happiness harmony, you know cooperation feeling good
0:27:55 And if you remember what the thing you want really is you wanted the happiness harmony cooperation
0:28:00 You don’t want you want that more than you want to be right you will act totally differently
0:28:06 So just remind yourself of that as the argument starts, you know, it’s funny. We were talking and we were arguing
0:28:11 And 30 minutes in your newborn started crying
0:28:13 And when I heard that cry
0:28:19 It broke my frame. I was like, I don’t want I don’t want him to be upset like you want to like is there any
0:28:23 And I wasn’t there physically, but if I were like, is there anything we could do to like
0:28:27 Make him happy like can we hug in front of like I remember thinking like
0:28:33 I don’t want this kid to be upset like that’s the only thing that important that that’s actually the important thing is like
0:28:40 Oh, he’s upset like that that’s unacceptable. My podcast dads are fighting. Yeah, I remember thinking I’m like
0:28:44 Oh, like let’s let’s tend it. You know what I mean? Like it totally broke my frame where you’re like
0:28:52 For some reason making him not cry just for two seconds is significantly more important than a any like a large business conversation
0:28:54 I thought that was like kind of interesting
0:28:56 100% um
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0:29:04 I made most of my money from a newsletter business
0:29:08 It was called the hustle and it was a daily newsletter at scale to millions of subscribers
0:29:13 And it was the greatest business on earth the problem with it was that I had close to 40 employees
0:29:16 And only three of them were actually doing any writing
0:29:21 The other employees were growing the newsletter building out the tech for the platform and selling ads
0:29:27 And honestly, it was a huge pain in the butt today’s episode is brought to you by beehive
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0:29:49 All right, I have a couple more and then we can we can stop, you know hugging each other so
0:29:55 This I wrote a category. What did I learn about myself because I I noticed as I was doing the you know, I
0:30:01 My coping mechanism was like oh this research is fascinating. Oh, this framework is cool
0:30:03 I was like, all right, all right, but I’m kind of distancing myself
0:30:05 from
0:30:08 the cold hard facts of my own behavior and my own mistakes
0:30:10 and
0:30:13 I want to tell you what I wrote under what I learned by myself. I said I made the cardinal sin
0:30:17 The cardinal sin in any relationship is measuring
0:30:25 I remember um once meeting uh, this guy stan chabnofsky stan chabnofsky is a very successful businessman facebook and google
0:30:28 Not google but facebook. Yeah, so if he first was a
0:30:34 Entrepreneur he created uh him and his buddy james currier have been business partners for like 20 years
0:30:39 And they have like a great business marriage and I was hanging out with stan once and he was telling me about like
0:30:42 What they did with tickle and how they sold that for like whatever to you know
0:30:47 Like 100 million dollars ish to monster and then they created this other company this other company this other company and then
0:30:51 zuck recruited him and zuck like recruited him for like 10 years and finally, you know
0:30:56 He finally went and worked with zuck and he ends up running facebook messenger and he’s had an amazing career
0:31:00 I said and one of the cool things was when he went to facebook
0:31:02 I was like, how did james handle that like now he’s doing all the work
0:31:09 For that like they’re they co-founded nfx this like fund in this incubator and they are accelerator and they
0:31:13 And now you’re going and taking a job at facebook like doesn’t that put some stress on the relationship?
0:31:16 And he was and he kind of laughed and he was like
0:31:21 It’s not that that’s not an issue but like, you know, we have such a strong partnership that like
0:31:24 We it’s great and that worked out great
0:31:29 And I was like, how do you guys do that man? I was like because I want to work with somebody for 20 years like that’s a
0:31:33 When I think about winning what winning looks like in my life that that’s what winning looks like
0:31:35 Find somebody amazing
0:31:39 Just do projects with them for 20 years find a handful of people that I could do that with
0:31:42 And um, he told me he goes. Oh the secret’s very simple
0:31:45 he goes the first thing is
0:31:46 um
0:31:48 Turn it into a giving contest
0:31:53 He said 98 percent of the relationships you you are in are taking contests
0:31:58 Meaning you’re trying to get out as much as you you’re asking. What am I getting out of this relationship?
0:32:01 That’s the fundamental like underlying questions. What am I getting from this other person?
0:32:03 What am I getting out of this?
0:32:07 You don’t realize it, but you you don’t realize it until you get into a tit for tat scenario
0:32:10 Meaning they didn’t do this. So I’m also not going to do that
0:32:15 They did this to me. So I’m also going to do that to them and you get into this tit for tat
0:32:18 Contest is measuring and basically it makes the pie smaller
0:32:24 Because the beautiful thing about james is that james is constantly trying to figure out how to make our relationship pie bigger
0:32:26 Meaning he’s just thinking how do I give more to this relationship?
0:32:31 And he doesn’t measure even when I’m not giving as much. He just gives he just keeps asking himself
0:32:32 How can I give more?
0:32:36 Because the beauty is that if you if you’re with somebody who’s wired that way and you start to do it too
0:32:39 Your relationship pie grows like crazy
0:32:46 And I remember hearing that me like this is the way that is the wisdom that is the fundamental truth about how to do this
0:32:48 tony robbins has a very similar
0:32:53 Framework around four levels of love one of the he calls the tit for tat thing. He calls it whoring
0:32:57 And he’s like I’ll give to you if you pay me basically it’s like I’ll put out for you
0:32:59 If you if you put out for me
0:33:02 And he’s like most of us run around our whole lives whoring and most of the relationship
0:33:08 We have there and and that is the root cause of why you get into these patterns these negative patterns with people because
0:33:13 It’s in game theory terms if every time one person even accidentally
0:33:17 Short changes the other and then you intentionally short change back
0:33:21 And then they pick up on that and then they short change back like what are you left with at the bottom very little?
0:33:26 um, but it is very common and I think that was the cardinal mistake was I was
0:33:31 Measuring what I was giving instead of focusing on what am I giving and how do I give more because that’s just who I am
0:33:35 Whereas what I was doing was saying how can I give so much because then
0:33:38 I’m going to get back and that’s fundamentally like a measuring
0:33:42 Scenario where instead it should just I want to I want to roll differently
0:33:45 So I think that was the probably the biggest mistake I made I think
0:33:48 Is that your list?
0:33:50 I have one last one, but it’s a positive one. So I’ll end on a positive note which is
0:33:56 The best relationships are bigger than you so me and my wife used to argue a bunch when we were dating
0:33:59 We actually ended up breaking up right before we finally got back together and ended up getting married
0:34:02 And we broke up because I was like dude, you’re just upset all the time
0:34:06 And I don’t really know what to do like I’m just being me and like if that upsets you we should be together
0:34:10 And she’s like no, I’m not upset. I’m just I’m like you’re upset. We’re upset a lot. We’re finding a lot
0:34:11 This is too much. I don’t want to do that
0:34:16 How long were you dating when you broke up and how long did you break out for and then how long until you got married?
0:34:23 Okay, I think something like we were probably dating for two years
0:34:28 My guess broke up for one month exactly and then got back together and
0:34:33 It was it’s been amazing ever since in an unbelievable kind of way meaning
0:34:38 You know, most people are like oh people don’t change and if my friend was in a relationship
0:34:41 And I’m like, okay, so y’all we’re fighting all the time you broke up for a month
0:34:44 She got back together and was like no no now. I’m gonna be cool about everything
0:34:48 I’d be like dude, come on. Are you serious? What are the odds of that?
0:34:50 Like what are the odds that like
0:34:55 It’ll just all turn around and then it actually did and one of the things that I would say it turned around like
0:34:57 Uh 180s. Let’s say a full turn it turned around like
0:35:02 130 which was great huge improvement and then when we had kids
0:35:05 It’s now a full 180 where I told my wife the other day. I was like, dude, when’s the last time we fought?
0:35:11 And she’s like, I don’t know. We do have time to fight and I was exactly I was like the best thing about kids is that
0:35:16 Both you and I have an unspoken agreement, which is okay. First of all, we no longer doubt each other’s intentions
0:35:20 I know you were trying to be great for me and I’m trying to be great for you and we’re not perfect
0:35:24 That’s okay. But second to that is when we do disagree or have an argument
0:35:26 we
0:35:28 Only let herself suffer for like 90 seconds
0:35:31 Whereas you were saying like a dude when I have a conversation like that it ruins my week
0:35:34 It used to ruin our week
0:35:37 Then it started to ruin our a couple days now it ruins literally 90 seconds was like, yo
0:35:41 We got to be awesome parents and we got a like function. We got to go to gymnastics right now
0:35:44 It’s like, are we really going to like make this car ride uncomfortable like dude?
0:35:46 How about we just agree to this like
0:35:49 Totally let that go and just get back on the good foot
0:35:53 We’ve been doing that now for the last like three or four years and it has been amazing
0:35:57 It is a miracle. It is something I would not have believed and if my friend told me, you know, that’s how it’s going to go
0:36:00 I’d be like, um, you’re bullshitting yourself
0:36:04 But I think the principle is the best relationships have something that’s bigger than
0:36:08 Just yourself in it. You can’t really be selfish
0:36:14 As a parent, you know, your selfishness goes down when you have kids just because it’s really about at least for me
0:36:15 I should speak for myself
0:36:17 life is very much in service of them and I
0:36:21 I I will I will give up so much I used to never give up for them
0:36:26 Um and that and I feel like in a way the podcast thing is great for us because it’s something bigger than us
0:36:28 Like let’s say we didn’t have the podcast
0:36:31 I probably after that last interaction probably wouldn’t have talked to you for a few months just out of like
0:36:33 Well, we don’t have to talk. So why would I talk?
0:36:37 Whereas the podcast is like no, I got to make this right which made me think
0:36:41 What can I do better which made me grow up and be a little bit of a better person today
0:36:44 Before you put a bow on it. Let me say one thing. So
0:36:49 When we have that argument also when I have any argument with anyone in business
0:36:52 I like this little thing gets in my head where I’m like
0:36:57 I like sometimes I’m like, you know what I don’t want to do business ever again
0:36:59 I don’t want to like I don’t want
0:37:03 Confrontation like, you know, it’s like when you’re losing a board game and you just like
0:37:05 Fuck this game and you like flip it upside down
0:37:08 Like sometimes I’m like, I don’t want any of it
0:37:12 I’m out. I don’t want any of this. I don’t want any drama
0:37:17 And the reason I like reading history and biographies is I’m able to see
0:37:21 People I admire and like some of the issues that they’ve had
0:37:23 and
0:37:29 I think I’ve said a bunch that like all great men or bad men meaning anyone who you admire like who’s achieved greatness
0:37:32 Whether it’s a president or a CEO like there’s people who dislike them
0:37:38 Because they’ve had to kill like someone like, you know, like in war, but you’re like that war was
0:37:41 Extremely good, but there’s down to use downsides
0:37:44 and I think about like
0:37:48 To do anything interesting in life, whether it’s business or whatever
0:37:54 It involves confrontation and it involves tension a lot of times
0:38:01 That is such an uncomfortable feeling but it’s sort of like working out where it’s like you’ve got to do that to make your muscle strong
0:38:07 But I and I and I hate it when it’s happening and I have to remind myself like
0:38:13 Don’t burn it down. Don’t walk away from everything like you can achieve what you want
0:38:15 You just have to go through some arguments sometimes
0:38:20 But it’s sort of like when you let’s say you had a company with a hundred employees
0:38:24 And let’s say 26 of those employees are unhappy
0:38:27 That’s like a pretty good ratio. So you have roughly 75
0:38:30 percent of people who are happy
0:38:32 But that means that every single day
0:38:36 If there’s 26 days in the work week or in the month work work days in the month
0:38:39 Someone’s gonna bitch to you. Do you know what I mean?
0:38:43 And someone’s gonna bitch to you every single day
0:38:47 And what it does to you is it makes you think everything is bad
0:38:53 And it’s really hard to switch your psychology to be like no not everything is bad
0:38:57 I need to compartment compartmentalize these two things
0:39:00 And it is a I’ve gotten better as I’ve gotten older
0:39:02 But it’s that is a huge issue
0:39:07 For me personally and I think it’s an issue for a lot of people where they they face some adversity
0:39:12 And I typically human adversity like tension between people is I think in my opinion the hardest one and the most common one
0:39:15 And the reaction is fuck it
0:39:20 Yeah, I have that reaction. I have that reaction super fast. I think even though the thing yesterday
0:39:22 I was like, oh, forget the whole thing then not the podcast
0:39:26 But like the situation where I was like, oh forget it who cares even then I do that all the time
0:39:28 I do that all the time and I have to
0:39:31 I have it’s a really hard thing
0:39:37 To say is my future self going to be happy or sad that I made this decision in this particular moment
0:39:40 It’s really fucking hard to nail that
0:39:43 Do you also read the kind of history at biographies because it’s like
0:39:47 The problem is 100 times bigger than your current problem
0:39:51 Like whatever the tiff is with your wife or with your neighbor or whatever it is
0:39:51 It’s like
0:39:57 Well, I just last night spent four hours reading about these guys who were shipwrecked and like, you know, that’s one of the reasons why
0:39:59 It’s like, oh, okay
0:40:05 Problems or relative I read it for that reason to it’s sort of like when I used to box and I used to get my ass kicked in the morning
0:40:09 I was like, oh everything else the volumes weight turned down like I just got beat up and it’s okay
0:40:13 Like I don’t mind like and that’s sort of why I like read biographies
0:40:15 I also like reading them because I like seeing
0:40:20 This is a normal feeling that I am having it is it is okay
0:40:26 And that is like a cool thing about reading about these people is when I’m in these moments
0:40:31 I think don’t burn it down. Don’t walk away. Don’t don’t do these things
0:40:33 It is normal to have this
0:40:40 And you have to accept that like in order to do anything interesting conflict is part of that and oftentimes
0:40:46 Conflict or constraints is where beauty and art is created. Do you know what I mean? Yes
0:40:51 um 100 that makes a lot of sense to me and I think is
0:40:55 Pretty wise to be honest. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever heard
0:40:59 the phrase somebody say the slang skill issue
0:41:04 Like you’re not a gamer and you’re not like 17 years old. So you might not be like part of this like subculture where
0:41:08 One of the like common internet slangs is just skill issue
0:41:12 And what skill issue me like somebody will describe like a huge problem
0:41:17 They’ll be on reddit typing like this whole thing about how the this is bad and this is hard and this
0:41:21 This thing out of my control whatever and then somebody will just skill issue
0:41:24 I think it started with gaming which is like they’re complaining about the game
0:41:27 And then somebody who’s better at the game will just say skill issue
0:41:33 And what it fundamentally means is like there are so many things that we describe as outside of our control
0:41:36 Or just fundamentally hard or impossible
0:41:40 That’s actually a skill issue meaning if you had the skill
0:41:45 You wouldn’t be bitching and whining about this. Um, that’s how I felt about yesterday meaning
0:41:49 When I started reading the Gottman stuff I realized oh
0:41:52 skill issue
0:42:00 Disagreeing and arguing is a skill and I have a skill issue. I am not as good at it as I could be and the reason why is
0:42:05 Um, when I’m reading his stuff, he’s got all these different words to describe things. He’s like
0:42:09 I was reading his like encoding of the arguments. I was like cross complaint
0:42:13 I’m cross what’s a cross complaint. I’m like looking it up. I’m like, oh, yeah
0:42:18 Yeah, he just did that. He did a cross complaint. Like that’s what that was. That’s why that didn’t feel good
0:42:22 And he’s like, yes, but I was like, oh dude. Yeah, I did a yes, but where I agreed
0:42:26 But then I like undermined my agreement right afterwards by the next sentence I said
0:42:32 um, and I realized in the same way that uh, I once read like intelligence is the
0:42:39 Number of distinctions you have on a subject. What that means is if uh, if you talk to eskimos about snow
0:42:43 Snow we like I have one word for snow snow
0:42:48 They have like 15 18 21 different ways to describe snow the snow. That’s a little bit runny the snow
0:42:51 That’s really hard the snow that falls fast the snow that like behaves differently
0:42:56 Because they live in the snow. They had they had to become intelligent about snow
0:42:58 They had to create a vocabulary
0:43:01 That described the distinctions because they mattered in their life and they were familiar with them
0:43:04 Whereas somebody who’s not not so skilled and familiar with snow
0:43:09 Only has one word in the same way as this guy was describing
0:43:13 Argument dynamics. I realized oh skill issue
0:43:20 There are a bunch of words for snow that I don’t know when it comes to arguing and arguing well
0:43:22 I think it’s even got a book called like fight write or something. I haven’t read it
0:43:27 But it’s like I’m gonna go read that and so that was the last interesting takeaway, which is
0:43:29 yet again
0:43:30 skill issue
0:43:35 So many things in my life just come down to that. Oh losing weight is hard. No, no, no skill issue
0:43:40 I used to have this asshole friend in college used to say uh
0:43:43 The only way you get good at drinking and driving is through a lot of practice
0:43:50 I’m like, you’re a horrible human being but you might be right
0:43:54 and uh
0:44:00 Sort of that’s kind of like that’s kind of like this. You got to fight a lot in order to like uh, uh, I learned how to do it correctly
0:44:05 Okay, well sam. I’m sorry for all of those reasons that I just said
0:44:12 And and it’s mutual you prepared this so it’s gonna sound like you’re what you are
0:44:17 It sounds like you’re being the bigger the bigger man
0:44:24 And and I want to let you know that uh, everything is mutual. Uh, I feel like
0:44:27 It sounds like you
0:44:31 Well, it sounds like you’re in some ways you’re you’re you’re sort of acting that
0:44:35 You didn’t blame me for anything. You only blamed yourself and I and I want to let you know that
0:44:37 That’s not actually the reality. You just
0:44:40 You just use more words than I did
0:44:45 Your word count was higher, but that doesn’t mean that the the feeling is different
0:44:52 That’s it that’s the pot
0:45:01 By the way, we get to use the one time and one time only youtuber thing to do where it’s like
0:45:05 It’s all over. I’m shutting it down. We we quit
0:45:10 Uh, we’re breaking up like the one time you could fake you could fake your own death
0:45:13 You could fake retirement you could fake your breakup and
0:45:16 everybody wants to click to see the goss and then
0:45:20 They you know, it’s the boy who cried wolf you could only do it once but you could hell a lot of clicks that time
0:45:25 So I think we should use it this time. We should title this whatever, you know, the it’s over podcast or yeah, it’s over
0:45:27 Sorry guys, you know
0:45:30 You know Sean’s apology or like
0:45:33 Um, we’re breaking up. Here’s why
0:45:39 Some subversion that I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to
0:45:45 I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let’s travel never looking back
0:45:47 Right
0:45:49 You
0:45:51 You
0:46:01 [BLANK_AUDIO]
0:00:04 The podcast is either gonna end today or
0:00:08 We’re gonna figure this out
0:00:29 Sam can we start I start with an apology. Yes, and I say sorry I was let me check my notes
0:00:36 I was a little pissy yesterday and you were on the receiving end of me being a little pissy. We had a fight an argument
0:00:43 Disagreement a lover’s quarrel. I don’t know what you want to call it. We had something and I
0:00:47 Want to talk about it here
0:00:51 Not just because I’m a sicko and I’m like, ooh, this is good content Jerry Springer
0:00:55 But also mostly because I found if I thought about it a lot afterwards
0:00:58 I found it kind of fascinating and at first I felt really bad
0:01:00 I don’t know about you, but I felt really horrible the rest of the day
0:01:06 So without discussing the specifics, I want to talk about what I learned after that fight. Can we do that?
0:01:09 okay, yeah, okay, so
0:01:12 Here’s the story we got in a fight yesterday
0:01:14 and
0:01:16 I wouldn’t even call it really a fight. It’s like a
0:01:20 Every six months. There’s just disagreements that we had to work through
0:01:25 Exactly and like most things it starts off as a misunderstanding
0:01:28 Turns into a disagreement which leads to an argument
0:01:32 We escalates to a fight and then it kind of de-escalates into a grumpy agreement and you sort of move on
0:01:35 and can I first tell you why I even
0:01:41 Wanted to talk about this. Yeah, do you know who JJ McCarthy is by any chance? He’s a
0:01:47 rookie football player. He’s a quarterback for the viking. So he’s a rookie. Yeah, I don’t know who he is
0:01:52 But I know the name football. So you just got drafted and like any, you know, a team that sucks
0:01:54 They draft a quarterback. They’re hoping he’s going to turn the franchise around
0:01:58 And he just had their first like preseason game not even in the season yet
0:02:02 And he threw an interception while he was playing. So
0:02:07 After the game, he’s doing an interview and I’m scrolling on twitter and I see this and I’m seeing this after we have our fight
0:02:09 and
0:02:11 The interviewer asked some she goes
0:02:18 JJ you go out there. You want to perform well, but you know, you throw that interception and I’m sure, you know, that did feel great
0:02:22 You know, what just talk me through what was going through your mind and how are you feeling after doing that?
0:02:26 And this guy’s response was epic. He goes
0:02:28 What was going through my mind?
0:02:30 What an opportunity
0:02:32 She goes, what what an opportunity and he goes
0:02:37 Yeah, I mean this whole my success in my career is going to be based on a quarterback at the NFL
0:02:42 My success in my career is going to be based on my resilience my ability to bounce back from mistakes
0:02:46 I throw in an interception. What an opportunity to learn to get better and to improve
0:02:49 And I was like, whoa
0:02:52 F*cking mindset alert, you know, I I pride myself on mindset
0:02:56 I’m a student of mindset and when I heard that I thought wow, that was an uncommon response
0:03:00 To a very common situation. I would say most guys are down on it
0:03:03 But then they’ll lie and be like, well, I just you know
0:03:06 Had to focus on the next play just put it out of my head and and you know
0:03:08 Just get better, you know
0:03:10 But they’re kind of bitter about it
0:03:13 And this guy was so genuine when he said what an opportunity and so I kind of had that same thought
0:03:16 Where I was feeling bad after a fight and I thought
0:03:19 I saw that clip and I thought, okay, what an opportunity for me to learn here
0:03:25 All right, let’s take a quick break because I want to talk to you about some new stuff that HubSpot has
0:03:27 Now they let me freestyle this ad here
0:03:29 So I’m going to actually tell you what I think is interesting
0:03:34 So they have this thing called the false spotlight showing all the new features that they released in the last few months
0:03:37 And the ones that stood out to me were
0:03:38 Breeze intelligence
0:03:42 I don’t know if you’ve seen this but if you’re in HubSpot and you have let’s say a customer there
0:03:48 You can just basically add intelligence to that customer that estimated revenue for that company how many employees it has
0:03:52 Maybe their email address or their location if they’ve ever visited your page or not
0:03:58 And so you can enrich all of your data automatically with one click using this thing called breeze intelligence
0:04:03 They actually acquired a really cool company called clearbit and it’s become breeze, which is great because now it’s built in
0:04:06 I always hated using two different tools to try to do this now
0:04:10 It’s all in one place and so all the data you had about your customers now just got smarter
0:04:14 So check it out. You can actually see all the stuff they released. It’s a really cool website
0:04:19 Go to hubspot.com/spotlight to see them all and get the demos yourself back to this episode
0:04:22 And the reason I think it’s an opportunity for me was
0:04:26 We joke on this podcast. I’m generally super laid back
0:04:28 like
0:04:30 I don’t really get easily bothered
0:04:34 I pride myself and have a good mindset, but of course I’m a human being I mess up
0:04:36 Which is why when I get bothered
0:04:44 It’s rare and I suck at it. And so I wanted to tell you some of the things that I reflected on afterwards
0:04:45 I have like
0:04:49 Five to seven thoughts. Can I just read them out to you? Yeah, and I might have a few as well
0:04:51 so first one
0:04:53 Fights don’t start as fights
0:04:56 and uh, what I mean by this is
0:04:59 You never start you never start a conversation intending to fight
0:05:03 Nor do you even really see a fight coming and the way the analogy I was using in my head was like
0:05:05 Oh a fight is like a forest fire
0:05:08 When a forest fire happens the explanation they usually come to is well
0:05:12 There was like a bunch of the what do they call it like the dry bush or whatever like this
0:05:16 Kind of the dead sticks that that go on the ground and it’s sort of this accumulation
0:05:18 This pile of sticks that nobody really clears out
0:05:22 And it’s not a problem until somebody drops a cigarette on it
0:05:24 And it it could be something that
0:05:27 You just squish out with your foot right away. You put it out. There’s no big deal
0:05:30 But if you don’t put it out right away
0:05:34 That accumulated dry stuff can catch fire. It can become a wildfire
0:05:36 It could tear down a whole forest
0:05:42 And so that was my first observation was man that the debris on the on the forest floor is
0:05:43 Kind of like a hidden danger
0:05:47 It’s a dog that’s not barking and you have to make sure that if a cigarette does drop on it
0:05:50 You’re able to kind of immediately put it out or clear it out ahead of time
0:05:56 That was the first thought which by the way the reason why that’s very easy for you to say that that’s very hard to address
0:06:01 And the reason it’s hard to address is because a lot of times people particularly me and I know you do as well
0:06:06 You have this idea where you’re like, I don’t want to ruffle feathers. I’ll just go with the flow
0:06:12 And if you do that too often, then you’re like shit. I’ve been going with the flow now
0:06:15 I’m bothered and
0:06:18 That’s a very hard balance to implement of like
0:06:22 When do you go with the flow or when do you say that’s not my preference?
0:06:26 Right that describes it to either avoid confrontation
0:06:28 That’s one reason to just like let it go type of thing
0:06:34 But you don’t really fully let it go right like 10 to 15 percent linkers or in my case
0:06:39 It’s a lot less of I avoid confrontation. It’s more of I don’t want to let myself get bothered by something small
0:06:41 So I ignore it. I think I ignore it
0:06:46 But like 10 percent of it lingers and if you ignore too many things that 10 percent can start to add up
0:06:48 And if unaddressed it’s that stuff on the on the forest floor
0:06:54 Okay, so here’s the second one fights are natural that was the second thought I had it wrote down in my little diary here
0:06:58 Fights are natural. We’ve been working together on this podcast for four years
0:07:00 I can count probably three
0:07:04 Serious arguments or disagreements that we’ve had that felt uncomfortable to deal with
0:07:09 Maybe there’s been some other ones i’m forgetting but like it’s understandable. You work together with somebody for four years on a project
0:07:13 You’re gonna have disagreements in the moment. It doesn’t feel good. It doesn’t feel natural
0:07:16 Logically, you know, hey, this is normal, but in the moment feels bad
0:07:23 And let’s emphasize how bad like when I argue with you or when I argue with jordan or joe my my other partners like
0:07:26 It ruins my week
0:07:31 I hate that feeling. I think you are a little more comfortable with confrontation for people like me
0:07:37 Like these midwestern nice people who have been raised to just swallow just swallow it
0:07:41 You just you live life like resenting others sometimes or like you just don’t fucking complain
0:07:43 I hate it
0:07:47 I hate like there’s been times where I’ve had to fire someone and I won’t fire them for a year
0:07:53 Because I just don’t want I just don’t want to do that conversation. I hate it it bothers like I like I wake up in the middle of the night
0:07:57 It ruined my night. I was going to show you my I’m moringa ura ring
0:08:00 I was going to show you my sleep scores terrible stuff three hours last night
0:08:03 I woke up in the middle of the night at 3 a.m. And I ate three
0:08:06 pieces of cookie dough from like a nestle’s
0:08:11 Bake and bake whatever it’s called break and bake. Yeah, break and bake
0:08:16 Dude, I wish I had a break and bake that would have made me feel better. I just woke up feeling shitty and
0:08:22 It’s ever my like the analogy here is in your diet. You can wake up feeling shitty
0:08:24 I at least I do this as my like
0:08:25 my evolution from
0:08:30 Guy with a horrible diet to trying to be better about it is I know when I feel shitty and it’s either because
0:08:34 I just door dashed Taco Bell and that was just a bad decision and I’m paying the price for that
0:08:38 But also even if you do the right thing at the wrong time if I eat a very like
0:08:41 A full meal, but I ate it at 10 30
0:08:45 It doesn’t matter if I had grilled chicken and whatever if it was a healthy meal
0:08:47 If I eat too late, I’m just going to feel bad
0:08:50 Right, so you could do the right thing at the wrong time and get pain
0:08:51 You could do the wrong thing at the wrong time get pain
0:08:54 And for me, this was surprising because usually if I have a confrontation
0:08:57 It’s usually relief because I’ve been I’ve been
0:09:03 Trying to avoid having it and when I do have it. I normally feel quite relieved and this one. I felt awful
0:09:08 I felt terrible. I couldn’t sleep. It was such an unusual feeling for me. Which made me think I didn’t do it right
0:09:10 so that’s probably
0:09:12 relatable but not surprising
0:09:15 I’m going to give you some of the things that I found interesting
0:09:20 The first is about this guy named dr. Gottman. Let’s call him dr. Gottman because I forget his first name
0:09:23 Do you know who dr. Gottman is? No
0:09:25 dr. Gottman is the love doctor
0:09:27 literally this is a guy who
0:09:34 Studied marriages and his claim to fame is that he could watch a couple for 15 minutes having a conversation about something
0:09:37 And predict with 90 plus percent certainty
0:09:41 If they were going to have a divorce end up divorced or stay together 90 plus percent
0:09:44 And only watching a 15 minute conversation
0:09:50 In fact, he had something called the love lab which was his research lab where he would bring couples in he would say talk about x
0:09:53 And he knew that x would lead into a little bit of a conversation
0:09:57 A little bit of resentment would come up and he could watch how they handled it
0:10:01 And in just 15 minutes predict 90 accuracy and by the way
0:10:07 If you let just like a normal marriage counselor or an average person on the street watch that same 15 minutes
0:10:10 Their accuracy was about 50 just like flip a coin
0:10:13 They had no no accuracy essentially
0:10:18 But this guy had 90 and why is that because he had done this a bunch and he he was able to identify
0:10:23 What are the things to look for that would cause a couple to break up and so
0:10:27 One interesting thing last night was I went down this rabbit hole of like what did Gottman say?
0:10:31 What are these things and he’s got a couple of interesting very insightful things
0:10:34 So he’s got one thing called the four horsemen of the apocalypse
0:10:38 It basically is like I look for four things that if a couple does these four things
0:10:45 Highly correlated with them not not staying together in the long run low married satisfaction and divorce
0:10:47 It’s like the emotions of contempt
0:10:49 resentment
0:10:51 What were the other two close so it’s criticism
0:10:54 contempt, which was the biggest one
0:11:01 Defensiveness and stonewalling and some of these were gendered. So like men were typically more guilty of stonewalling meaning
0:11:06 Wife is bringing something up. He just kind of shuts down just cut kind of like in his mind
0:11:10 He’s like I’m not fighting in her mind. It’s like you’re you’re not you’re not even open
0:11:13 You’re closing me down and I’m trying to express something to you
0:11:17 But content contempt was the one where regardless of gender
0:11:23 If you did these things like an eye roll anything that’s hierarchy, which is like, oh, you’re such an asshole, right?
0:11:27 I’m good and you’re bad anything that creates anything that indicates contempt
0:11:32 Was like one of the worst things that could happen right because it indicates a lack of fundamental respect
0:11:34 And you know equality in in the relationship
0:11:38 So he’s got that he had another one which is a magic ratio
0:11:40 Which is they would observe an interaction and they would see that
0:11:45 And by the way the way they did this was fascinating couples talk for 15 minutes and he’s encoding
0:11:48 Every minute. I think they divided into like 18
0:11:54 Signals in a minute or something like that and they had this like specific encoding where it’s like eye roll
0:11:57 Like body language turn away phrasing of a thing
0:12:03 Yeah, but like all these little nuanced things that he because they would they would immediately encode and then they would have a
0:12:05 Score at the end of it and they’d have positive
0:12:10 Interactions between the couple and negative but they’re like these micro interactions, right to the surface
0:12:13 It didn’t even look like they’re having a huge fight yelling at each other throwing and screaming
0:12:18 You know throwing things across the room none of that but even in just like a normal conversation
0:12:22 He could get that indication. So he said the magic ratio is five to one, right?
0:12:25 Every couple is going to have negative interactions. That’s not avoidable
0:12:30 It’s what’s the ratio of positive to negative and if it was five to one the couples would stick together
0:12:34 Uh below five to one you start to get into higher likelihood that the couples will not stay together
0:12:39 I thought that was kind of interesting. Um, there’s a ton of like little micro things that he has in there like
0:12:46 Repair attempts. So how do you de-escalate people who know like any couple that stayed together had a good habit of
0:12:51 Using humor or taking a break or just saying I’m sorry. That was stupid. I shouldn’t have said that
0:12:55 That’s not actually what I mean. What I mean is this a way to de-escalate in in a fight
0:12:59 It was like a huge tool that was that was very useful and that was one thing
0:13:02 I think I did poorly yesterday, which was I was not
0:13:06 de-escalating well, right either could it took a break
0:13:11 Could have just made a joke could have said actually the way that came out is not actually how I feel
0:13:13 how I feel is really this
0:13:16 But instead it was like some costs like I said it now I got to defend it
0:13:17 Which is like such a stupid way to go
0:13:23 He’s got this whole philosophy that I’m super fascinated by now and really excited to do kind of like a little bit more of a
0:13:25 Deep dive on like how cool is that guy by the way?
0:13:30 He’s great. I joke with my wife where I’ll say look
0:13:33 I’ve made my point
0:13:34 I am
0:13:40 Dug in okay. There is no retreating here. I’m what you call dug in. I cannot go back
0:13:46 And the reason I’m raising my voice is because that would mean that if I talk lower
0:13:49 It I’m losing the argument, right and that is not happening
0:13:54 Yeah, like you know in UFC fights. I remember Greg would always say we’ll see who takes the first back step
0:13:56 He’s like he’s like oh, we’re gonna fight
0:13:58 But I’m not he’s not just this trash talk was not I’m gonna knock you out
0:14:02 He’s like he would get in their mind like let’s see who takes the first back step because he’s actually a counterpuncher
0:14:06 He wants the guy moving forward. So you put that in their mind if you take a back step
0:14:08 you’re a bitch and
0:14:10 As silly as that sounds
0:14:14 That would describe my behavior in a lot of interactions. Yes, let’s see who takes the first back step, which is
0:14:17 Not serving me well
0:14:21 Yeah, I get in trouble a lot for it and it’s incredibly stupid and there’s so many times where I’m like
0:14:23 shit
0:14:24 I
0:14:27 My ego won’t let me retreat, but that is the right decision
0:14:32 Right, let me give you a a mechanic that I learned that I wish I had yesterday when we were fighting
0:14:34 I once took an improv class in san francisco
0:14:40 And the very first class instead of teaching you how to do improv the very first lesson is not here’s what you do
0:14:44 It’s here’s what you do when you screw up because you’re gonna screw up a ton
0:14:48 You are beginners. This is hard. You are gonna screw up a lot
0:14:53 So the first tool we give you they would just go she was like when you say something that was stupid
0:14:56 Or didn’t make sense or was not funny and you tried to be funny
0:15:01 The weight of the world is gonna come crashing down on you and here’s your solution ready
0:15:05 And she’s like could you all do that we’re like
0:15:09 And she was like that’s it when it happens just go whoop and that just means to everybody
0:15:13 Clear the slate that didn’t happen. We’re moving on we’re moving past that it was a whoop
0:15:14 and
0:15:18 I wish I had a mechanic like that in so many more areas of my life
0:15:20 where
0:15:23 a way to eject or abort or pull out of a tailspin of like
0:15:28 I didn’t want to go this way. I didn’t want to say that I didn’t want that to come across the way it came across
0:15:31 I needed a whoop to just be like
0:15:36 That wasn’t like let’s wipe this late clean real quick like a sketch just quickly shake it and it’s gone
0:15:41 Yeah, I uh, you would look really dumb if you did that but I agree that is a very
0:15:44 That is a very helpful thing. I’ve got in
0:15:49 I get in more trouble because of this thing more than anything else, right?
0:15:52 All right, another observation my body keeps the score
0:15:55 So I have this coach as an executive coach, which is like, you know business strategy
0:16:01 But mostly like therapy thinking through basically helping me think more clearly and be a better person
0:16:07 And he’s great and he has this see this stuff that he says that’s great that I’m like totally buy it
0:16:10 He has other stuff that he says that I’m like I get that you buy it
0:16:15 I’m not sure that I buy it yet. And one of the things he always talks about is like the body keeps the score
0:16:17 Have you read that book?
0:16:19 I’ve read the book
0:16:23 But I you know, I’m I don’t have back pain and I think it’s more of a it’s like a literally like a back pain book, right?
0:16:29 It’s sort of it’s basically like the easiest one are soldiers who have PTSD
0:16:35 They see they feel things physically and I frankly I actually don’t remember the entire premise
0:16:39 But I believe it was if you change your body, you can actually change your mind
0:16:44 Right, so he’ll ask me he’ll be like I’ll say something. He’d be like, where do you feel that when you say that?
0:16:49 I’m like, I don’t feel like I I said it from my mouth. What are you talking about?
0:16:55 He’s like, no, like is there a tightness in your chest? I’m like, bro. I don’t want to like I don’t want to do yoga
0:16:59 I just want to say what’s going on and then figure it out with a logical solution
0:17:03 And he’s helping me learn that I hadn’t really fully bought in until yesterday
0:17:09 When I felt terrible after it physically. I felt terrible after our our conversation and I was like, oh, shit
0:17:13 I think he’s right. I think the body does keep the score and I’m more of a believer in that
0:17:19 Oh, shit. So that was another observation. What did you feel terrible because you felt that I was wrong or because you didn’t like
0:17:21 the words you used
0:17:25 I felt terrible because I felt like I did myself um, uh, uh
0:17:26 A
0:17:32 disservice disservice, which is I don’t think I conducted myself. Well, I thought I actually had a good
0:17:34 Point meaning I don’t
0:17:40 Disagree with any of my words and I disagree with all of my delivery and what a shame because it’s like actually what I did was
0:17:45 A total net negative. I undermined my own point
0:17:47 What I was trying to express I didn’t express well
0:17:52 It wasn’t effective and I made you feel not good too because that wouldn’t feel good anyways
0:17:55 And I was like, oh the other lesson of course is people don’t remember what you say
0:17:58 They just remember how you made them feel if it makes you feel better
0:18:02 I I think your delivery wasn’t as bad as you think that doesn’t make me feel better. Thank you
0:18:05 And I agree and I agree with your points
0:18:07 Like the points you made were not bad points
0:18:15 Your the problem with having an argument with you is you are quite logical and you do make logical points
0:18:23 The other problem with you is that most people myself included are more emotional than logical and that’s sometimes hard for you to understand
0:18:25 Yes
0:18:28 and also to give myself a more blame here is
0:18:32 I am like a firecracker or something like that. It’s like
0:18:35 You can play with it. You can hold it. Nothing’s gonna happen
0:18:42 For like 90 out of the out of all the days of the year 364 days out of the year that firecracker
0:18:44 Is just easy to easy to handle
0:18:47 But on July 4th, there’s one day
0:18:50 That like 5% of the time where the fuse gets lit. There was like no
0:18:55 No warning and it’s fucking explosive. And so it’s like that’s what I think my problem is
0:18:57 I’m extremely tolerant and unbothered
0:19:03 Until the moment I’m bothered and then I have a big whiny baby and I like get really upset really quickly more than I should
0:19:08 And again, and I real what I realized yesterday was oh, that’s just because I don’t have many reps doing it
0:19:12 And this is kind of a bullshit like my greatest strengths is having a weaknesses
0:19:13 But it’s I think it’s honestly true in this situation
0:19:17 Which is I’m so rarely bothered that when I’m when I am bothered. I’m so poor at handling it
0:19:21 Whereas I think somebody who is more frequently runs into situations like this
0:19:25 They come they become more mature and have better tools to deal with it than I do
0:19:30 It’s almost like because you’re pretty emotionally healthy that is actually a weakness
0:19:33 You know what I mean because you don’t assume that other people are broken
0:19:38 Or like that their egos dictate things. Do you know what I mean?
0:19:40 Well, I think you’re giving me a very generous bend
0:19:44 But I’ll I’ll consider that not just a compliment but maybe something that might be true here
0:19:49 Can I read you a couple more bullet points? Yeah words. I’ve jotted down in my journal here. So there are no winners in war
0:19:52 There’s always a benefit to expressing myself but
0:19:55 And finding resolutions when there’s a mix up but once it escalates
0:19:58 There are only, you know, there’s no there’s no winner and loser
0:20:02 There’s only two losers in a situation like that where I think at a certain point
0:20:05 The conversation was productive and then at a certain point it was unproductive
0:20:09 And once it got into an unproductive and by the way, we weren’t like cursing each other out or anything
0:20:11 I don’t mean to make it sound like that
0:20:17 But just on a relative scale it wasn’t one where I felt wow that was super constructive and I feel better about the relationship
0:20:19 It’s like no, I think we did some damage there and there were two
0:20:23 There was only two losers in that interaction. There was no like winner and loser
0:20:26 Which is stupid because when you argue you kind of want to be a winner or a loser
0:20:31 You want to be a winner and that default so the person to be a loser in the interaction, but that’s a false idea
0:20:36 Have you read Dale Carnegie’s how to win friends and influence people? Clearly I should go and reread it
0:20:39 I read the first chapter about people loving their name and then I was like, this is great and I
0:20:47 He has a famous line in that where he goes the most beautiful word in the English language is a person’s name
0:20:48 So say it a lot
0:20:52 But like right in the third chapter like one chapter after that he tells a story about how
0:20:56 He was with this influential person who was telling him the story
0:21:02 And the guy got a lot of the story wrong like he was like saying this is a quote from Shakespeare and Dale was like
0:21:03 actually
0:21:06 You know that was Thomas Jefferson who said that
0:21:09 And the guy who he corrected
0:21:13 Fucking hated him. He’s like don’t don’t correct me over this shit
0:21:18 And the whole point is like when you try to correct people or argue with them to prove a point
0:21:22 it doesn’t it rarely ever works your way which sucks because
0:21:27 Sometimes it makes you feel good to win an argument or to think you won an argument, but it actually
0:21:30 It’s more often than not a shitty thing
0:21:34 But didn’t Lincoln also say the same thing like never criticize and I always had trouble with that idea
0:21:38 I think in the book how to win friends and influence people was like never criticize. I was like never
0:21:45 I’m like never criticize and I was like never how do you function with never crit? How does that? How do you?
0:21:49 How do you know what accountability? I don’t I don’t understand. I still don’t understand that
0:21:54 Well, what he said in that letter or in that chapter was he’d also said Lincoln would do this thing
0:22:00 Where he would write an angry letter to someone and one time he wrote like a scathing letter letter to someone
0:22:04 And he didn’t send it and the reason why he did that was one time
0:22:08 He talked shit about this guy and the guy was like I challenge you to a duel
0:22:14 Which was a fight to the death and Lincoln was like dude. I’m not doing that. That’s insane. I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to offend you
0:22:16 I’m sorry and like it was like I’m not going to criticize people ever again
0:22:20 And so instead he would write these letters where he would like bitch bitch him out
0:22:23 And then just not send him and he was like that makes me feel better
0:22:27 I’m ready to try that
0:22:32 I still don’t fully understand how you do the never criticize thing, but I think they’re right, which is rarely doesn’t do any good
0:22:34 Um, okay. Let me give you a couple others
0:22:40 Everybody is the hero of their own story and convincing them otherwise as a fool’s errand myself included
0:22:43 I recently heard this when I was in canada
0:22:48 At the uh, Andrew Wilkinson’s event I was sitting at the dinner table with chris spiraling chris’s andrew’s business partner
0:22:53 Who’s more under the radar, but a super fun guy and he’s one of my I don’t know top three dinner party
0:22:56 Yes, the guy is just electric at a dinner table
0:23:02 And one of the things he said was he brought this up. He goes isn’t it funny? He’s like I have never met a person
0:23:04 who does not
0:23:05 view themselves
0:23:06 as
0:23:07 acting
0:23:11 I forgot exactly who said it but like acting good acting just no matter what they’re doing
0:23:14 And he’s like I think everybody from serial killers on
0:23:19 Views themselves as the hero of their story and uh, you know justified
0:23:23 Either what they did was right or the wrong thing they did was justified
0:23:28 He’s like, isn’t that crazy? I was like that is actually crazy and it was so true
0:23:30 Like I felt like when we were arguing yesterday
0:23:36 I was the hero of my story and I had done all these valiant things that were you know, um, you know
0:23:38 My my protagonist moves and then you were like
0:23:44 Uh-huh, but I am the protagonist. I’m like, you know as an escalator. It’s like you’re the villain. I’m the hero
0:23:46 And you’re like I’m the hero. You’re the villain and it was like wait
0:23:52 We are both idiots is actually what we both are we’re neither the heroes nor the villains in this scenario
0:23:56 But it was just a good reminder of man. I’m guilty of that if I’m guilty of that
0:24:00 Everybody’s guilty of that and I looked it up. There’s something called narrative identity
0:24:05 Which is like the psychological name for for this phenomenon that even you know hitler on
0:24:07 believe this about uh
0:24:13 About themselves and the problem is that then you go and like you ask your wife or your close friend
0:24:18 About any situation and you explain it and oftentimes they’ll say you are right
0:24:23 But the reality is is like you’re not probably you’re probably not explaining the situation
0:24:27 Like to where you can truly get wonderful advice. Do you know what I mean? Right?
0:24:32 Well, there’s another one I looked up when I was when I was talking to chat gpt about like what is the name for this?
0:24:38 Maybe my buddy just had this argument. What’s the name of that syndrome? What what is what was I doing it?
0:24:43 What is that called? One of them was called mistaken attribution and what the principle was this
0:24:46 When I’m wrong
0:24:49 It’s because of the situation when you’re wrong. It’s because of the character
0:24:55 And if you do that, it’s a very unhealthy mindset to have or a bias to have it’s a misattribution bias
0:24:59 And we all do this which is oh those things that I did at the wrong
0:25:02 Well, that’s just because that this was what was going on in the situation
0:25:08 However, if you don’t give that same benefit of that out to the other person that their actions were
0:25:12 situationally dictated and and not from any poor intention
0:25:17 Then you end up with this the same problem as like an investing. It’s like when I win its skill when I lose
0:25:18 It’s bad luck
0:25:22 And in the same way in a fight it’s if I’m wrong it’s situational if you’re wrong it’s character
0:25:25 It’s your you just you that was a choice. That’s who you are
0:25:29 So someone told me this years and years ago and it kind of changed my life
0:25:34 And I try to use it all the time and I’m a human and I fail and I I failed on it a little bit
0:25:36 Or I failed on a lot of it yesterday
0:25:40 But basically it’s the idea where we judge ourselves on our intentions
0:25:45 But we judge other people on their actions, right and
0:25:51 I try to remind myself constantly and that’s really it that’s another thing that’s very simple but hard, but it is like
0:25:55 Very important I think
0:26:01 Truly and dude during our conversation yesterday. It was like well, you know, I didn’t there was no malintent of this, right?
0:26:07 Yes, I know that and it’s like and you I know that you had no malintent in what you did, right? You’re like, yeah, of course
0:26:10 Well, we should have done that but I was like, what the fuck are we talking about?
0:26:14 What is this? None of this matters at that point. What are you mad about? What am I mad about?
0:26:19 How does this even how does this even make sense if there’s if we both agree that the intentions were correct?
0:26:23 Then we could de-escalate this down to oh, we just weren’t clear about xyz or oh
0:26:27 We had a mr.. Miss communication misunderstanding. I thought you meant this you thought about this
0:26:31 Oh, yeah, silly mistake on my part, but didn’t mean to make that mistake. It’s just a natural mistake
0:26:33 You know because I’m not a perfect person
0:26:37 So I think there was a moment in there where we could have de-escalated that we didn’t properly do it
0:26:40 That’s how every argument actually should start and that’s actually what I’m going to do is like
0:26:43 Can you explain your intentions and I’ll explain my intentions?
0:26:47 And then we’ll break down the actions to see like if there’s alignment or whatever, right?
0:26:52 I once argued with my wife and then I had a training session with my trainer right afterwards
0:26:58 And he could tell I was like a little off at the beginning like my my vibe is usually like good vibes only
0:27:02 And I did not have good vibes only but I was just quiet and he was like what’s up? And I was like, oh, yeah, you know
0:27:04 I started to explain the situation
0:27:07 And he goes oh, I got the solution for you
0:27:12 And I thought he was giving me the solution to the argument to the problem the issue quote-unquote that we were discussing
0:27:15 And he goes no, no, here’s what you do
0:27:18 When you’re in that moment
0:27:19 Just remember
0:27:21 I love you, right? You love me cool and we want to be happy
0:27:26 All right, then we’re good like he was just like cool that nothing else matters
0:27:28 And what he was saying he’s like what I mean by that is
0:27:31 Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy and he’s like
0:27:35 I have a lot of clients that are like you silicon valley types businessman
0:27:38 You know logical left brain thinker types
0:27:46 There is a desire to be right and it is sometimes at odds with the actual outcome you want which is
0:27:50 Happiness harmony, you know cooperation feeling good
0:27:55 And if you remember what the thing you want really is you wanted the happiness harmony cooperation
0:28:00 You don’t want you want that more than you want to be right you will act totally differently
0:28:06 So just remind yourself of that as the argument starts, you know, it’s funny. We were talking and we were arguing
0:28:11 And 30 minutes in your newborn started crying
0:28:13 And when I heard that cry
0:28:19 It broke my frame. I was like, I don’t want I don’t want him to be upset like you want to like is there any
0:28:23 And I wasn’t there physically, but if I were like, is there anything we could do to like
0:28:27 Make him happy like can we hug in front of like I remember thinking like
0:28:33 I don’t want this kid to be upset like that’s the only thing that important that that’s actually the important thing is like
0:28:40 Oh, he’s upset like that that’s unacceptable. My podcast dads are fighting. Yeah, I remember thinking I’m like
0:28:44 Oh, like let’s let’s tend it. You know what I mean? Like it totally broke my frame where you’re like
0:28:52 For some reason making him not cry just for two seconds is significantly more important than a any like a large business conversation
0:28:54 I thought that was like kind of interesting
0:28:56 100% um
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0:29:04 I made most of my money from a newsletter business
0:29:08 It was called the hustle and it was a daily newsletter at scale to millions of subscribers
0:29:13 And it was the greatest business on earth the problem with it was that I had close to 40 employees
0:29:16 And only three of them were actually doing any writing
0:29:21 The other employees were growing the newsletter building out the tech for the platform and selling ads
0:29:27 And honestly, it was a huge pain in the butt today’s episode is brought to you by beehive
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0:29:49 All right, I have a couple more and then we can we can stop, you know hugging each other so
0:29:55 This I wrote a category. What did I learn about myself because I I noticed as I was doing the you know, I
0:30:01 My coping mechanism was like oh this research is fascinating. Oh, this framework is cool
0:30:03 I was like, all right, all right, but I’m kind of distancing myself
0:30:05 from
0:30:08 the cold hard facts of my own behavior and my own mistakes
0:30:10 and
0:30:13 I want to tell you what I wrote under what I learned by myself. I said I made the cardinal sin
0:30:17 The cardinal sin in any relationship is measuring
0:30:25 I remember um once meeting uh, this guy stan chabnofsky stan chabnofsky is a very successful businessman facebook and google
0:30:28 Not google but facebook. Yeah, so if he first was a
0:30:34 Entrepreneur he created uh him and his buddy james currier have been business partners for like 20 years
0:30:39 And they have like a great business marriage and I was hanging out with stan once and he was telling me about like
0:30:42 What they did with tickle and how they sold that for like whatever to you know
0:30:47 Like 100 million dollars ish to monster and then they created this other company this other company this other company and then
0:30:51 zuck recruited him and zuck like recruited him for like 10 years and finally, you know
0:30:56 He finally went and worked with zuck and he ends up running facebook messenger and he’s had an amazing career
0:31:00 I said and one of the cool things was when he went to facebook
0:31:02 I was like, how did james handle that like now he’s doing all the work
0:31:09 For that like they’re they co-founded nfx this like fund in this incubator and they are accelerator and they
0:31:13 And now you’re going and taking a job at facebook like doesn’t that put some stress on the relationship?
0:31:16 And he was and he kind of laughed and he was like
0:31:21 It’s not that that’s not an issue but like, you know, we have such a strong partnership that like
0:31:24 We it’s great and that worked out great
0:31:29 And I was like, how do you guys do that man? I was like because I want to work with somebody for 20 years like that’s a
0:31:33 When I think about winning what winning looks like in my life that that’s what winning looks like
0:31:35 Find somebody amazing
0:31:39 Just do projects with them for 20 years find a handful of people that I could do that with
0:31:42 And um, he told me he goes. Oh the secret’s very simple
0:31:45 he goes the first thing is
0:31:46 um
0:31:48 Turn it into a giving contest
0:31:53 He said 98 percent of the relationships you you are in are taking contests
0:31:58 Meaning you’re trying to get out as much as you you’re asking. What am I getting out of this relationship?
0:32:01 That’s the fundamental like underlying questions. What am I getting from this other person?
0:32:03 What am I getting out of this?
0:32:07 You don’t realize it, but you you don’t realize it until you get into a tit for tat scenario
0:32:10 Meaning they didn’t do this. So I’m also not going to do that
0:32:15 They did this to me. So I’m also going to do that to them and you get into this tit for tat
0:32:18 Contest is measuring and basically it makes the pie smaller
0:32:24 Because the beautiful thing about james is that james is constantly trying to figure out how to make our relationship pie bigger
0:32:26 Meaning he’s just thinking how do I give more to this relationship?
0:32:31 And he doesn’t measure even when I’m not giving as much. He just gives he just keeps asking himself
0:32:32 How can I give more?
0:32:36 Because the beauty is that if you if you’re with somebody who’s wired that way and you start to do it too
0:32:39 Your relationship pie grows like crazy
0:32:46 And I remember hearing that me like this is the way that is the wisdom that is the fundamental truth about how to do this
0:32:48 tony robbins has a very similar
0:32:53 Framework around four levels of love one of the he calls the tit for tat thing. He calls it whoring
0:32:57 And he’s like I’ll give to you if you pay me basically it’s like I’ll put out for you
0:32:59 If you if you put out for me
0:33:02 And he’s like most of us run around our whole lives whoring and most of the relationship
0:33:08 We have there and and that is the root cause of why you get into these patterns these negative patterns with people because
0:33:13 It’s in game theory terms if every time one person even accidentally
0:33:17 Short changes the other and then you intentionally short change back
0:33:21 And then they pick up on that and then they short change back like what are you left with at the bottom very little?
0:33:26 um, but it is very common and I think that was the cardinal mistake was I was
0:33:31 Measuring what I was giving instead of focusing on what am I giving and how do I give more because that’s just who I am
0:33:35 Whereas what I was doing was saying how can I give so much because then
0:33:38 I’m going to get back and that’s fundamentally like a measuring
0:33:42 Scenario where instead it should just I want to I want to roll differently
0:33:45 So I think that was the probably the biggest mistake I made I think
0:33:48 Is that your list?
0:33:50 I have one last one, but it’s a positive one. So I’ll end on a positive note which is
0:33:56 The best relationships are bigger than you so me and my wife used to argue a bunch when we were dating
0:33:59 We actually ended up breaking up right before we finally got back together and ended up getting married
0:34:02 And we broke up because I was like dude, you’re just upset all the time
0:34:06 And I don’t really know what to do like I’m just being me and like if that upsets you we should be together
0:34:10 And she’s like no, I’m not upset. I’m just I’m like you’re upset. We’re upset a lot. We’re finding a lot
0:34:11 This is too much. I don’t want to do that
0:34:16 How long were you dating when you broke up and how long did you break out for and then how long until you got married?
0:34:23 Okay, I think something like we were probably dating for two years
0:34:28 My guess broke up for one month exactly and then got back together and
0:34:33 It was it’s been amazing ever since in an unbelievable kind of way meaning
0:34:38 You know, most people are like oh people don’t change and if my friend was in a relationship
0:34:41 And I’m like, okay, so y’all we’re fighting all the time you broke up for a month
0:34:44 She got back together and was like no no now. I’m gonna be cool about everything
0:34:48 I’d be like dude, come on. Are you serious? What are the odds of that?
0:34:50 Like what are the odds that like
0:34:55 It’ll just all turn around and then it actually did and one of the things that I would say it turned around like
0:34:57 Uh 180s. Let’s say a full turn it turned around like
0:35:02 130 which was great huge improvement and then when we had kids
0:35:05 It’s now a full 180 where I told my wife the other day. I was like, dude, when’s the last time we fought?
0:35:11 And she’s like, I don’t know. We do have time to fight and I was exactly I was like the best thing about kids is that
0:35:16 Both you and I have an unspoken agreement, which is okay. First of all, we no longer doubt each other’s intentions
0:35:20 I know you were trying to be great for me and I’m trying to be great for you and we’re not perfect
0:35:24 That’s okay. But second to that is when we do disagree or have an argument
0:35:26 we
0:35:28 Only let herself suffer for like 90 seconds
0:35:31 Whereas you were saying like a dude when I have a conversation like that it ruins my week
0:35:34 It used to ruin our week
0:35:37 Then it started to ruin our a couple days now it ruins literally 90 seconds was like, yo
0:35:41 We got to be awesome parents and we got a like function. We got to go to gymnastics right now
0:35:44 It’s like, are we really going to like make this car ride uncomfortable like dude?
0:35:46 How about we just agree to this like
0:35:49 Totally let that go and just get back on the good foot
0:35:53 We’ve been doing that now for the last like three or four years and it has been amazing
0:35:57 It is a miracle. It is something I would not have believed and if my friend told me, you know, that’s how it’s going to go
0:36:00 I’d be like, um, you’re bullshitting yourself
0:36:04 But I think the principle is the best relationships have something that’s bigger than
0:36:08 Just yourself in it. You can’t really be selfish
0:36:14 As a parent, you know, your selfishness goes down when you have kids just because it’s really about at least for me
0:36:15 I should speak for myself
0:36:17 life is very much in service of them and I
0:36:21 I I will I will give up so much I used to never give up for them
0:36:26 Um and that and I feel like in a way the podcast thing is great for us because it’s something bigger than us
0:36:28 Like let’s say we didn’t have the podcast
0:36:31 I probably after that last interaction probably wouldn’t have talked to you for a few months just out of like
0:36:33 Well, we don’t have to talk. So why would I talk?
0:36:37 Whereas the podcast is like no, I got to make this right which made me think
0:36:41 What can I do better which made me grow up and be a little bit of a better person today
0:36:44 Before you put a bow on it. Let me say one thing. So
0:36:49 When we have that argument also when I have any argument with anyone in business
0:36:52 I like this little thing gets in my head where I’m like
0:36:57 I like sometimes I’m like, you know what I don’t want to do business ever again
0:36:59 I don’t want to like I don’t want
0:37:03 Confrontation like, you know, it’s like when you’re losing a board game and you just like
0:37:05 Fuck this game and you like flip it upside down
0:37:08 Like sometimes I’m like, I don’t want any of it
0:37:12 I’m out. I don’t want any of this. I don’t want any drama
0:37:17 And the reason I like reading history and biographies is I’m able to see
0:37:21 People I admire and like some of the issues that they’ve had
0:37:23 and
0:37:29 I think I’ve said a bunch that like all great men or bad men meaning anyone who you admire like who’s achieved greatness
0:37:32 Whether it’s a president or a CEO like there’s people who dislike them
0:37:38 Because they’ve had to kill like someone like, you know, like in war, but you’re like that war was
0:37:41 Extremely good, but there’s down to use downsides
0:37:44 and I think about like
0:37:48 To do anything interesting in life, whether it’s business or whatever
0:37:54 It involves confrontation and it involves tension a lot of times
0:38:01 That is such an uncomfortable feeling but it’s sort of like working out where it’s like you’ve got to do that to make your muscle strong
0:38:07 But I and I and I hate it when it’s happening and I have to remind myself like
0:38:13 Don’t burn it down. Don’t walk away from everything like you can achieve what you want
0:38:15 You just have to go through some arguments sometimes
0:38:20 But it’s sort of like when you let’s say you had a company with a hundred employees
0:38:24 And let’s say 26 of those employees are unhappy
0:38:27 That’s like a pretty good ratio. So you have roughly 75
0:38:30 percent of people who are happy
0:38:32 But that means that every single day
0:38:36 If there’s 26 days in the work week or in the month work work days in the month
0:38:39 Someone’s gonna bitch to you. Do you know what I mean?
0:38:43 And someone’s gonna bitch to you every single day
0:38:47 And what it does to you is it makes you think everything is bad
0:38:53 And it’s really hard to switch your psychology to be like no not everything is bad
0:38:57 I need to compartment compartmentalize these two things
0:39:00 And it is a I’ve gotten better as I’ve gotten older
0:39:02 But it’s that is a huge issue
0:39:07 For me personally and I think it’s an issue for a lot of people where they they face some adversity
0:39:12 And I typically human adversity like tension between people is I think in my opinion the hardest one and the most common one
0:39:15 And the reaction is fuck it
0:39:20 Yeah, I have that reaction. I have that reaction super fast. I think even though the thing yesterday
0:39:22 I was like, oh, forget the whole thing then not the podcast
0:39:26 But like the situation where I was like, oh forget it who cares even then I do that all the time
0:39:28 I do that all the time and I have to
0:39:31 I have it’s a really hard thing
0:39:37 To say is my future self going to be happy or sad that I made this decision in this particular moment
0:39:40 It’s really fucking hard to nail that
0:39:43 Do you also read the kind of history at biographies because it’s like
0:39:47 The problem is 100 times bigger than your current problem
0:39:51 Like whatever the tiff is with your wife or with your neighbor or whatever it is
0:39:51 It’s like
0:39:57 Well, I just last night spent four hours reading about these guys who were shipwrecked and like, you know, that’s one of the reasons why
0:39:59 It’s like, oh, okay
0:40:05 Problems or relative I read it for that reason to it’s sort of like when I used to box and I used to get my ass kicked in the morning
0:40:09 I was like, oh everything else the volumes weight turned down like I just got beat up and it’s okay
0:40:13 Like I don’t mind like and that’s sort of why I like read biographies
0:40:15 I also like reading them because I like seeing
0:40:20 This is a normal feeling that I am having it is it is okay
0:40:26 And that is like a cool thing about reading about these people is when I’m in these moments
0:40:31 I think don’t burn it down. Don’t walk away. Don’t don’t do these things
0:40:33 It is normal to have this
0:40:40 And you have to accept that like in order to do anything interesting conflict is part of that and oftentimes
0:40:46 Conflict or constraints is where beauty and art is created. Do you know what I mean? Yes
0:40:51 um 100 that makes a lot of sense to me and I think is
0:40:55 Pretty wise to be honest. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever heard
0:40:59 the phrase somebody say the slang skill issue
0:41:04 Like you’re not a gamer and you’re not like 17 years old. So you might not be like part of this like subculture where
0:41:08 One of the like common internet slangs is just skill issue
0:41:12 And what skill issue me like somebody will describe like a huge problem
0:41:17 They’ll be on reddit typing like this whole thing about how the this is bad and this is hard and this
0:41:21 This thing out of my control whatever and then somebody will just skill issue
0:41:24 I think it started with gaming which is like they’re complaining about the game
0:41:27 And then somebody who’s better at the game will just say skill issue
0:41:33 And what it fundamentally means is like there are so many things that we describe as outside of our control
0:41:36 Or just fundamentally hard or impossible
0:41:40 That’s actually a skill issue meaning if you had the skill
0:41:45 You wouldn’t be bitching and whining about this. Um, that’s how I felt about yesterday meaning
0:41:49 When I started reading the Gottman stuff I realized oh
0:41:52 skill issue
0:42:00 Disagreeing and arguing is a skill and I have a skill issue. I am not as good at it as I could be and the reason why is
0:42:05 Um, when I’m reading his stuff, he’s got all these different words to describe things. He’s like
0:42:09 I was reading his like encoding of the arguments. I was like cross complaint
0:42:13 I’m cross what’s a cross complaint. I’m like looking it up. I’m like, oh, yeah
0:42:18 Yeah, he just did that. He did a cross complaint. Like that’s what that was. That’s why that didn’t feel good
0:42:22 And he’s like, yes, but I was like, oh dude. Yeah, I did a yes, but where I agreed
0:42:26 But then I like undermined my agreement right afterwards by the next sentence I said
0:42:32 um, and I realized in the same way that uh, I once read like intelligence is the
0:42:39 Number of distinctions you have on a subject. What that means is if uh, if you talk to eskimos about snow
0:42:43 Snow we like I have one word for snow snow
0:42:48 They have like 15 18 21 different ways to describe snow the snow. That’s a little bit runny the snow
0:42:51 That’s really hard the snow that falls fast the snow that like behaves differently
0:42:56 Because they live in the snow. They had they had to become intelligent about snow
0:42:58 They had to create a vocabulary
0:43:01 That described the distinctions because they mattered in their life and they were familiar with them
0:43:04 Whereas somebody who’s not not so skilled and familiar with snow
0:43:09 Only has one word in the same way as this guy was describing
0:43:13 Argument dynamics. I realized oh skill issue
0:43:20 There are a bunch of words for snow that I don’t know when it comes to arguing and arguing well
0:43:22 I think it’s even got a book called like fight write or something. I haven’t read it
0:43:27 But it’s like I’m gonna go read that and so that was the last interesting takeaway, which is
0:43:29 yet again
0:43:30 skill issue
0:43:35 So many things in my life just come down to that. Oh losing weight is hard. No, no, no skill issue
0:43:40 I used to have this asshole friend in college used to say uh
0:43:43 The only way you get good at drinking and driving is through a lot of practice
0:43:50 I’m like, you’re a horrible human being but you might be right
0:43:54 and uh
0:44:00 Sort of that’s kind of like that’s kind of like this. You got to fight a lot in order to like uh, uh, I learned how to do it correctly
0:44:05 Okay, well sam. I’m sorry for all of those reasons that I just said
0:44:12 And and it’s mutual you prepared this so it’s gonna sound like you’re what you are
0:44:17 It sounds like you’re being the bigger the bigger man
0:44:24 And and I want to let you know that uh, everything is mutual. Uh, I feel like
0:44:27 It sounds like you
0:44:31 Well, it sounds like you’re in some ways you’re you’re you’re sort of acting that
0:44:35 You didn’t blame me for anything. You only blamed yourself and I and I want to let you know that
0:44:37 That’s not actually the reality. You just
0:44:40 You just use more words than I did
0:44:45 Your word count was higher, but that doesn’t mean that the the feeling is different
0:44:52 That’s it that’s the pot
0:45:01 By the way, we get to use the one time and one time only youtuber thing to do where it’s like
0:45:05 It’s all over. I’m shutting it down. We we quit
0:45:10 Uh, we’re breaking up like the one time you could fake you could fake your own death
0:45:13 You could fake retirement you could fake your breakup and
0:45:16 everybody wants to click to see the goss and then
0:45:20 They you know, it’s the boy who cried wolf you could only do it once but you could hell a lot of clicks that time
0:45:25 So I think we should use it this time. We should title this whatever, you know, the it’s over podcast or yeah, it’s over
0:45:27 Sorry guys, you know
0:45:30 You know Sean’s apology or like
0:45:33 Um, we’re breaking up. Here’s why
0:45:39 Some subversion that I feel like I can rule the world. I know I could be what I want to
0:45:45 I put my all in it like no days off on the road. Let’s travel never looking back
0:45:47 Right
0:45:49 You
0:45:51 You
0:46:01 [BLANK_AUDIO]
Episode 619: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) and Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) do a post-mortem on a fight they had yesterday.
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Show Notes:
(0:00) Fights don’t start as fights
(9:08) Gottman’s Fourhorseman of the Apocalypse
(11:28) The magic ratio of 5:1
(15:42) The body keeps the score
(19:36) No winners in war
(24:19) Mistaken attribution
(26:40) Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy
(29:17) The cardinal sin is measuring
(32:55) The best relationships are bigger than you
(40:00) Identify the skill issue
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Links:
• Get our business idea database here https://clickhubspot.com/mfm
• The Body Keeps the Score – https://tinyurl.com/sf66b2tj
• How to Win Friends and Influence People – https://tinyurl.com/4wbafxyf
• Fight Right – https://tinyurl.com/pdvub4b4
—
Check Out Shaan’s Stuff:
Need to hire? You should use the same service Shaan uses to hire developers, designers, & Virtual Assistants → it’s called Shepherd (tell ‘em Shaan sent you): https://bit.ly/SupportShepherd
—
Check Out Sam’s Stuff:
• Hampton – https://www.joinhampton.com/
• Ideation Bootcamp – https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/
• Copy That – https://copythat.com
• Hampton Wealth Survey – https://joinhampton.com/wealth
• Sam’s List – http://samslist.co/
My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by The HubSpot Podcast Network // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano