AI transcript
0:00:09 [MUSIC]
0:00:10 Good morning, everybody.
0:00:14 This is Guy Kawasaki, and this is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:00:18 And as you know, we’re on a mission to make you remarkable.
0:00:23 So we go out and we find the most remarkable people we can to inspire you and inform you.
0:00:27 And of course, today we hit it out of the ballpark.
0:00:28 We have Keith Ferrazzi.
0:00:31 Can it get any more remarkable than that?
0:00:38 Many of you may remember him for this great book that he wrote called Never Eat Alone.
0:00:41 And wow, that was a fantastic book.
0:00:46 And now he’s with us for the second time because he’s got another great book.
0:00:51 And now instead of not eating alone, we’re going to talk about not leading alone.
0:00:53 Right, Keith?
0:00:55 Guy, it’s extraordinary to be here.
0:00:57 And I’ll just mirror right back to you.
0:00:59 You are remarkable, my friend.
0:01:01 It’s been amazing to watch all that you give to the world.
0:01:03 No, I don’t know about that.
0:01:05 You probably tell that to every podcaster.
0:01:06 I don’t actually.
0:01:09 Nobody else has called the Remarkable podcast.
0:01:13 So this was my unique opportunity.
0:01:16 So I have kind of a weird question to start off.
0:01:22 I read the forward of your book and I thought, do you ever wonder, and this is true for me too,
0:01:29 do you ever wonder where would we be if our parents were rich?
0:01:29 Oh, my God.
0:01:32 Because you came from a poor family and I did too.
0:01:34 So and I’m not trying to say that we would be better off.
0:01:39 I’m saying maybe we would be worse off if we came from a rich family.
0:01:39 It’s interesting.
0:01:43 There’s somebody out there with a name similar to yours that wrote this book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
0:01:46 And I’ve had the chance to talk to him a bit about this.
0:01:49 I thought you were going somewhere else with a question, which I’ll come back to.
0:01:55 I’m obviously blessed to have the drive, the inspiration, the desire to make an impact
0:02:00 in this world that was infused in me in a very early age from my father.
0:02:06 And also the gumption that it took for me to get where I am today and the resilience
0:02:10 as a result of coming from real abject poverty in the United States.
0:02:13 My old man was unemployed and it gave me that drive and ambition.
0:02:18 Not only did it give me a drive and ambition to be successful and to dig out of the economic
0:02:24 hole we were in, but it also gave me a mission, which is we grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania
0:02:26 in the crash of the steel industry.
0:02:32 And I saw how poor management made families destitute.
0:02:39 And that’s what I’ve been on for 20, 30 years is that desire to try to make sure the corporation
0:02:45 stay ahead of the pack so that families like ours all over the world can thrive.
0:02:45 Yeah.
0:02:46 But thanks for that question.
0:02:48 You know where I thought you were going to go with it, by the way.
0:02:53 I thought you were going to go with it as if we knew when we were younger what we know now.
0:02:57 I wish I was the leader that led this way all my life.
0:03:02 And that was the big lesson for me, which is writing this book and researching this book
0:03:05 and woken me up to my own leadership needs.
0:03:06 And you know what?
0:03:10 I would make the case that it’s better late than never, first of all.
0:03:16 But also it may take 50 or 60 or 70 years to figure out what’s in that book.
0:03:19 I don’t think you can figure that out at 20.
0:03:19 No, you’re right.
0:03:25 In fact, I wrote Never Eat Alone and it was about my life and how I achieved success through
0:03:30 and with opening doors and relationships, networking, one might speak.
0:03:34 And then I kept on that relationship thread and I started doing more and more research
0:03:38 about how small groups of people support each other through transformation,
0:03:42 which really evolved my passion for high performing teams.
0:03:46 So for 20 years now, I’ve been researching how does a small group
0:03:50 of people perform disproportionately more than others?
0:03:54 And that’s, it has been 20 years of research, 20 years of coaching some
0:03:58 of the most extraordinary turnarounds like at General Motors, some
0:04:00 of the fastest growth unicorns now, even governments.
0:04:06 We’re working with the country of Bhutan to infuse the principles of co-elevation
0:04:12 and teamship in how they govern as they double their GDP and keep their happiness index.
0:04:14 It’s been 20 years of work.
0:04:19 So first of all, could you define for the audience your concept?
0:04:22 I think you invented this word “teamship.”
0:04:24 I love the word “teamship.”
0:04:27 So what does it mean from Keith Farrasi?
0:04:27 Well, I want to give you credit.
0:04:32 It was one of my teams actually, one of my teammates that designed the word “teamship”
0:04:34 and woke that up for me.
0:04:38 A “teamship” is the recognition and I feel, I know this is going to sound heretical.
0:04:44 I think we’ve over-indexed on leadership, under-indexed on “teamship.”
0:04:48 Now, leadership of course is important and I think it deserves all the credit it’s been getting.
0:04:50 How do you be a great leader?
0:04:56 But there were no guidebooks out there on what to expect from a high-performing team.
0:05:02 Lencioni’s book “20 Years Old Now” was a book about what are the dysfunctions of a team.
0:05:07 I wanted to give a very prescriptive roadmap on how a team becomes exceptional.
0:05:13 And what we did was we recognized that if you look at a good leader, they give feedback.
0:05:16 But a great team gives each other feedback.
0:05:20 If you look at a good leader, make sure that the team has good energy.
0:05:22 A great team makes sure each other has energy.
0:05:25 A great team holds each other accountable.
0:05:32 A great team is responsible for each other’s resilience, is responsible for each other’s ideas and fortitude.
0:05:40 And giving them what I call “co-elevation,” a purposeful mission, but forcing to lift each other up in the process.
0:05:46 Now, if a leader can unleash that, it is asymptotic in terms of what can be achieved.
0:05:50 I was about to ask you what are the tells of a lack of “teamship.”
0:05:54 But you just listed them there, is there anything you left out?
0:06:01 No, I did. The book is, what we found, our research is a 3,000 team dataset over 20 years.
0:06:03 And that’s what you get when you get this book.
0:06:10 And what we’ve done is we’ve broken it down into 10 critical shifts that a team needs to make.
0:06:14 Each chapter is a shift. Each chapter starts with a hero’s story.
0:06:20 And then right after that, around that particular shift, real simple practices that the team can try on.
0:06:24 The intention is to use it as a book club and the book becomes your coach.
0:06:30 I wanted to put myself into every team out there in the world that I couldn’t get to using the book.
0:06:33 And so there are 10 shifts, and I just mentioned a few that are really important.
0:06:40 One of them is candor and the willingness for a team to move from conflict avoidance to real courage.
0:06:46 Another one is very purposeful bonding and having each other’s back, the connectivity of a team.
0:06:48 Those two are very important.
0:06:56 I would say of the 10 shifts, there’s probably three or four that I can say are disproportionately predictive of a team’s outcomes.
0:07:07 So back up for a second for me. Let’s say I’m listening to this and I even bought the book and I just want to give me the gist of how do I conduct team diagnostics?
0:07:11 How do I assess the level of teamship on my team?
0:07:13 Yeah, let me just use one chapter.
0:07:21 So the first two chapters are the forward to the book and the awakening that you should expect more from a team that’s chapters one and two.
0:07:27 But let me dive right into a practical chapter three and chapter three has a couple of questions that you ask your team.
0:07:34 One of them is a diagnostic question that I have done with thousands of teams and it’s a simple question.
0:07:42 Do we challenge each other in the room when it’s risky to do so, even when it’s outside of our swim lanes or areas of expertise?
0:07:48 So that’s a complicated question, but the bottom line is do we challenge each other actively here, even when it’s risky?
0:07:54 Now, the average team on a scale of zero to five is actually only about two or less than two.
0:07:56 I can give you a couple of simple practices.
0:08:00 One practice is actually called a candor break.
0:08:06 Put onto your agendas of your meetings a simple line that says we’re going to do a candor break.
0:08:13 It’s when you stop in the middle of the meeting and you ask the team what’s not being said in here that needs to be said.
0:08:16 Now, you don’t just do it in an open forum with eight people.
0:08:20 You have them go into groups of two and you have them chat for even 30 seconds.
0:08:24 What’s not being said that should be said, then you restart the conversation.
0:08:31 In that small group of two, psychological safety goes up by 85% and people will begin to have a very different conversation afterward.
0:08:36 That’s one of four of the practices in chapter three called a candor break.
0:08:42 Now, there are a few others and we can get into them if you’d like to because they’re really useful for your listeners to dive into.
0:08:50 But the first thing you do is you diagnose where you are, you do a couple of the practices and then a couple of months later, you diagnose again.
0:08:57 And I promise you that what we find is the average candor score of a team is usually in the low twos, high ones.
0:09:04 And then that goes up to the low threes in less than a few months and it goes up into the high threes, low fours within six months.
0:09:06 If you do the practices regularly.
0:09:12 So the intention is you do the practices, you change your culture and you get different outcomes.
0:09:15 I understand what these teammates are doing.
0:09:22 But now what kind of mental framework does the leader have to ensure the success of a teamship?
0:09:24 Yeah, there’s a phrase I love to use.
0:09:28 I might have used the last time we together, but it’s we’re behavioral scientists.
0:09:30 We just study practices.
0:09:35 I don’t I’m just like I said, I think we’ve over indexed on leadership.
0:09:38 I’m going to say I think we over indexed on mindsets.
0:09:41 I believe that you don’t think your way to a new way of acting.
0:09:43 You act your way to a new way of thinking.
0:09:49 I don’t need a leader to adopt a different mindset in order to read my book and start to practice it.
0:09:53 I just want a leader to have the courage to try a few of the practices.
0:10:01 And if you try a few of the practices, you’ll wake up and realize how much pent up value is in your team that you’re letting sit there.
0:10:05 So there’s one of the practices is called it is called a stress test.
0:10:11 So a stress test, a lot of us do these things called report outs in our team meetings.
0:10:15 We show somebody will show up and they’ll say, worst case, they’re going through a 20 page deck.
0:10:16 Here’s where we are in this day.
0:10:17 Oh my God, it’s horrible.
0:10:19 I’m sure you’ve never seen that before, right?
0:10:27 So you would instead we go through something called a stress test where the person shows up and on one page says, here’s what I’ve achieved.
0:10:31 Here’s where I’m struggling and here’s where I’m going.
0:10:39 Now, everybody knows what each other is doing anyway, but this initiative is now summarized this way and you pause and you once again go into small groups of two or three.
0:10:45 And in those groups, you open up a Google doc and in the Google doc, you write, here’s where I challenge you.
0:10:47 You might be missing this.
0:10:48 Here’s an idea.
0:10:51 I’m going to give you and here’s some support.
0:10:56 I’d like to offer a simple assignment has now rebooted your culture.
0:10:59 I wrote an article about this in Fortune magazine a couple of weeks ago.
0:11:07 If you want to just go look at my name and fortune, you’ll see this article and it talks about how one simple practice can totally reboot a culture.
0:11:15 This stress testing, if you regularly practice stress testing and every associate shows up and is willing to get feedback from the team directly.
0:11:23 You’re priming the pump to open up the value that this team can give each other without you always being the hub and spoke.
0:11:31 And in this world, does all of this have to be done in person or can we use digital collaboration?
0:11:46 Chapter six, chapter six recognizes that the tools that we have been sitting on Microsoft Teams, Google, WebEx, Zoom, there’s a robust set of tools now having AI complement those tools.
0:11:59 Your teammates are now expanded to include AI and these collaborative tools that are available to us are extraordinary project management software, knowledge management software, the stuff that Drew Halston’s doing over at Dropbox is amazing.
0:12:05 Now, I want to make sure that we start to become what I call 21st century collaborators.
0:12:09 Stop using damn meetings as the primary form of collaboration.
0:12:15 If you’re a leader that that sees a problem and actually there’s a wonderful example of this.
0:12:24 I don’t know if you ever met Gil West, who was at United Airlines went over to Cruz, the self driving car company.
0:12:25 He went over there and he was looking around.
0:12:27 He’s, you know what? I see a problem here.
0:12:28 Let’s have a meeting on it.
0:12:38 And these kids out of Stanford, which is where most of these kids that that bird these companies, they looked at Gil this western or this guy from the south, the southerner.
0:12:40 And he said, Gil, how do we have a meeting on it?
0:12:42 We haven’t collaborated yet.
0:12:46 So these kids collaborate in the cloud, multiple cycles.
0:12:53 They figure out what the big problems are we’re trying to solve, what the big barriers are, what innovation innovative solutions we have.
0:12:57 Then they have meetings to land the plane if they need it, right?
0:13:04 So we’ve got to do what I call meeting shifting, where we ignore this idea that meetings are the primary form of our collaboration.
0:13:09 This book has been able to reduce the number of meetings by 30% in most teams.
0:13:15 I’m almost afraid to ask, what do you think of these companies who are mandating return to office then?
0:13:24 Okay, look, I’ve got some very good friendships with some of these executives who very well known right now for bringing everybody back to the office.
0:13:26 So here’s what I’ll say.
0:13:31 I don’t want to have a dog in the hunt as to whether or not we need to be in the office or out of the office for a moment.
0:13:33 But here’s what I can tell you.
0:13:40 I’m going to use two folks you probably know, Drew Houston, Matt Mullenweg, Drew from Dropbox, Matt Mullenweg from WordPress.
0:13:51 The two of those folks during the pandemic found that they were feeling that their companies were suffering from a drain in energy relationships.
0:13:55 They sensed that the culture was eroding because they were virtual.
0:14:02 Now, some CEOs, when they felt that their natural reaction was, let’s get everybody back to the office as soon as we can.
0:14:06 And what I’m going to put words in their mouth, they’re not saying this, but it’s how they’re acting.
0:14:14 They’re basically saying, let’s get everybody back to the office to practice serendipity bonding, which is how that we build our culture.
0:14:16 We want people to bump into each other in hallways, etc.
0:14:21 Drew and Matt decided to say, you know what we’re going to do?
0:14:23 We’re going to not practice serendipity bonding.
0:14:25 We’re going to practice purposeful bonding.
0:14:28 Every week, we’re going to do energy checks.
0:14:35 These energy checks are going to act as a safety net where everybody’s going to go around and say, here’s what’s draining my energy.
0:14:39 On a scale of zero to five, here’s where I am and here’s what’s draining my energy.
0:14:48 These energy checks, the average relationship score of a team prior to the pandemic when they were doing serendipity bonding was in the mid to high twos.
0:14:53 When you went into the pandemic, it went down into the low twos because people didn’t see each other.
0:14:59 When you started practicing purposeful bonding, it ended up going up into the mid to high threes.
0:15:07 The point that I would make is if you’re going to be virtual or hybrid, which any global company is anyway, right?
0:15:14 Then you need to use 21st century collaboration and you need to use purposeful cultural building tactics and practices.
0:15:17 That will actually get you on a steady state.
0:15:27 You can actually do a better job in a hybrid virtual world than you did just using accidental serendipitous ways of connecting and collaborating.
0:15:35 If you want to bring everybody back into the office because there’s an extra spriticore and you can recruit people who want to be in that office and still have that kind of an energy.
0:15:38 I would still recommend you read chapter six.
0:15:48 You still build that sort of purposeful collaboration tools and you build in chapter four those purposeful bonding skills and you’ll crush it either way.
0:15:54 The people that I know that are being forced to return to office.
0:15:57 It’s not this spirit of serendipity.
0:16:07 It’s more we’re going to check your badge on the way in and we’re going to know exactly when you came and when you left and you need to be there for such and such many days per week per minute.
0:16:11 It’s like a it’s like punching a time clock for knowledge workers.
0:16:14 I wouldn’t say there’s anything to do with serendipity.
0:16:17 I’ll riff for a moment and I do in the book.
0:16:24 One of the things that I realized when I finished writing the book as I looked back on all the heroes that I celebrated in the book.
0:16:35 Almost all of them were engineers and it made me realize something and that was that the people who put their mind to reengineering ways of working.
0:16:45 Ended up thriving as leaders versus those who left the ways of working to be more accidental or legacy oriented.
0:16:47 I’ll say it a slightly different way.
0:16:54 When the pandemic hit we looked over at the HR department and we said it’s your job to figure this work thing out.
0:17:00 And so HR people like governance people put a hat on around policy.
0:17:06 So it was about checking the boxes of being in the office or how much zoom time do you actually have.
0:17:12 Could we possibly measure how much fingers are on keyboards during the day.
0:17:15 It was policy and auditing for it right.
0:17:18 But there was another group of people that said wait a second.
0:17:20 We’re in a different world today.
0:17:22 We have technologies we didn’t have before.
0:17:26 We have opportunity and potential to reinvent working.
0:17:29 What would that look like if we reinvented collaboration.
0:17:31 And that’s what I’ve documented here.
0:17:33 And I and that’s an engineering.
0:17:34 That’s a reengineering.
0:17:37 Ask yourself in the average company who is reengineering work today.
0:17:38 Whose job is it.
0:17:41 Software engineers did agile.
0:17:44 Manufacturing engineers did six sigma and TQM.
0:17:48 Both of those were new ways of working that got reengineered.
0:17:52 Now we need to reengineer collaboration in white color teaming.
0:17:56 How and I and look I started out my life as an industrial engineer.
0:17:59 That’s what I’m trying to bring as a behavioral scientist as an engineer.
0:18:03 New ways of working new ways of teaming that will help us crush it.
0:18:05 Correct me if I am wrong.
0:18:09 But in reading your book and even just listening to you now.
0:18:17 It seems that the concept of this lone genius this superstar visionary cowboy.
0:18:21 The obvious examples are Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.
0:18:25 I don’t remember much team ship in the Macintosh division.
0:18:33 So are these two people just outliers or should they be our heroes or anti heroes.
0:18:38 I love that question and I earnestly ask that question myself.
0:18:45 And because I went through and what I did was I studied people like to rank over at Elf Beauty.
0:18:53 Who has been absolutely crushing it against the this is a small organization that is now eating market share significantly.
0:18:58 Against the big beauty companies and its entire culture is bred from team ship.
0:19:00 It was chapter 10 and I can share a little bit more about it.
0:19:07 But I just went and looked at companies that were crushing it and extracted their practices and I found team ship was embedded.
0:19:09 I started doing the same thing for Elon Musk.
0:19:13 About six months ago I put a research team our research institute.
0:19:19 I signed a research team of two people to really go and scour.
0:19:23 What are the practices of Elon Musk and why he’s been successful.
0:19:28 I finished that research and was ready to actually consider writing a book on it because I thought it was really intriguing.
0:19:35 And I found out that a friend of mine Dennis Neil is also just releasing a book and was already going to press on the exact same subject.
0:19:37 What makes this man exceptional.
0:19:39 And I do think that we can do both.
0:19:46 The social contract at a place like Elf Beauty from Terrang is come here.
0:19:47 You will thrive.
0:19:53 You will grow faster and further than you ever have your but you have to be willing to let your team push you higher.
0:19:55 Your team needs to give you feedback.
0:19:57 Your team needs to lift you up.
0:20:01 You’re going to you’re going to love on each other and you’re going to grow and we’re going to kick ass.
0:20:04 That’s the Terrang social contract at Elf Beauty.
0:20:12 The social contract over at you know at a place like SpaceX or anywhere else that Elon Musk is prevailing is come here.
0:20:17 You’re going to get your ass kicked and we’re going to do extraordinary fucking things.
0:20:17 Right.
0:20:20 It’s that’s a social contract that some people buy into.
0:20:25 But I think you’re quite limited to the number of people who want to be in that social contract.
0:20:30 If you want to scale if you want to create extraordinary products.
0:20:38 Yes. You could have an extraordinary visionary like Elon or like or like jobs and you can count on them to dictate the answer.
0:20:45 Or we can start looking at innovations and crowdsourcing of insights where we can get inspired from diverse inputs.
0:20:53 Like things like XPRIZE and our friend Peter Diamandis espouses which is the wisdom of the crowds to inspire in great innovation.
0:20:56 There’s two different philosophies and I think there’s things we can learn from.
0:21:17 I’m going to ask you a question that maybe you don’t want to answer.
0:21:33 So let’s say that Donald Trump’s nominations all go through and Donald Trump’s chief of staff calls you up and says Keith.
0:21:38 I want you to help me make a team ship out of this cabinet.
0:21:39 Yeah.
0:21:41 I don’t know how and what do you do.
0:21:45 Did you just pull that out of the air or did you do some research.
0:21:47 OK. Interesting.
0:21:51 And I mean what kind of research do you need to do to ask that question.
0:22:01 The research is that at the beginning of the Biden administration exactly this time at the transfer of power from the prior administration to the Biden administration.
0:22:11 I wrote an article in Fast Company which is my advice to the Biden administration for how he should run his cabinet and how his cabinet should treat the hill.
0:22:14 Now they took none of it and I didn’t get any calls.
0:22:17 But I’ll tell you look very interesting.
0:22:23 I did study this and as a result of writing this piece you can go back and find it in Fast Company four years ago.
0:22:31 And what would I recognize was the cabinet is a bunch of very high powered billion people and whether you like their politics etc.
0:22:32 They are what they are.
0:22:35 And each of those individuals run their domains.
0:22:39 There is no interdependency among that group of people.
0:22:42 The simple practice of stress testing.
0:22:53 Imagine Dr. Oz showing up in that cabinet and asking here’s where I here’s my analysis so far of what I think Medicare and Medicaid has got to do.
0:22:57 Here’s where I’m struggling to figure this out and here’s where I’m planning to go.
0:23:03 And then the team the cabinet would go into small groups and say here’s what you’re missing.
0:23:05 Here’s an idea.
0:23:07 Call me here if you’d like some help.
0:23:12 That simple practice of stress testing would make that group so much more effective.
0:23:17 Then the next question is and this is the first thing I ask in this book is who’s your team.
0:23:24 Look the reality of government and the reality of business is that our teams have nothing to do with org charts.
0:23:27 If you want to get something done you need the people up on the hill.
0:23:29 You need the bureaucrats.
0:23:31 You need the congressman the senators.
0:23:38 They’re your team and yet we think and we treat each other as the silos in business and in government.
0:23:50 The work that I’m doing with the country of Bhutan is interesting because in Bhutan you’ve got a very small country that is revered by people all over the world for being one of the happiest places in the world.
0:23:58 They’re looking to make leaps forward in their economic growth and like every other government they were traditionally thinking about it in silos.
0:24:00 You’ve got the secretaries.
0:24:07 You’ve got the ministers one politic one bureaucrat very separate and then you’ve got the private sector.
0:24:20 We’re looking at how those groups can come together as one team one team which allows the government officials to truly what I call teaming out and crush it in terms of innovative new ideas that they would have never never been able to do before.
0:24:34 So the answer to your question is if I got that call I would be surprised but if I got that call of course I grew up as a kid wanting to make a difference in this world when the steel industry was crashing.
0:24:42 I wanted to be a politician and I wanted to grow up and be governor of Pennsylvania president United States and fix American manufacturing.
0:24:50 I’m doing it from a different lens today. I’m doing it from the perspective of thought leadership and the perspective of behavioral science around teams.
0:24:53 I would of course serve my country in any way that I could.
0:25:04 So you would say yes I would say yes and I would just invite me when you tell Dr. Oz to have this conversation with I don’t know.
0:25:10 I can’t say Matt Gates anymore because he dropped out but that would have been a conversation I would like to hear.
0:25:17 I can’t say that these practices are easy to implement everywhere.
0:25:31 If you’ve got if you’ve got a tin-eared narcissistic leader that is unwilling to open themselves to critique and open dialogue which I have sometimes seen in my career.
0:25:35 It’s more difficult to get the team to be psychologically safe to do this.
0:25:43 Although I remember a leader of a large telecom company international telecom company that that was exactly that kind of person.
0:25:50 And what ended up happening is the team applied these principles out of salvation for themselves.
0:26:00 The leader was narcissistic difficult challenging and the team rallied together to be the kind of leaders that they were all were asking for for each other.
0:26:09 They were able to I would say not thrive because it was difficult but they were certainly able to co-elevate as a team.
0:26:13 But imagine if the leader embraces that journey.
0:26:16 Okay I’ll let you off the hook now.
0:26:19 Don’t you have in mind you can ask anything my friend.
0:26:22 Love it.
0:26:31 Would you explain the difference between candor and conflict because I think many people don’t differentiate the two.
0:26:32 It’s actually a great question.
0:26:44 And I think that there’s conflict avoidance which I find right in most companies which is why this score about can we challenge each other when it’s risky to do so is low.
0:26:49 I think a lot of people think of conflict as disrespect where there’s disagreement.
0:26:52 I think healthy conflict is necessary.
0:26:56 I believe I would be curious if you go back in the Macintosh days.
0:27:02 Was there ever a healthy conflict where people pushed in each other with or I don’t know if they felt psychologically safe to do that.
0:27:06 That’s obviously a ground foundation that you’ve got to give.
0:27:08 There’s two ways to get to psychological safety by the way.
0:27:12 You can hire for it where Ray Dalio does that.
0:27:14 I think Amazon tries to do that.
0:27:20 You hire for people that are resilient and capable of arguing and challenging each other.
0:27:26 Not disrespectfully but just able to be stressful in their interaction sometimes even competitive.
0:27:29 But it actually gets to a higher order product.
0:27:31 That’s one solution.
0:27:37 There’s another solution which is you build it through a sense of trust empathy and care for each other.
0:27:43 One people one place in most conflict avoidance companies would say I’m not going to challenge our peers.
0:27:45 That would be throwing them under the boss.
0:27:48 Others would say course I’m going to challenge my peers.
0:27:51 I wouldn’t dare let them fail right.
0:27:57 So this perspective of care and commitment conflict does not mean disrespect.
0:28:01 Conflict is healthy to get to a better answer.
0:28:09 I would always bet on a company that had healthy and even sometimes unhealthy conflict at its core.
0:28:16 Then a nice company that has political talking behind each other’s backs the meeting after the meetings the conflict avoidance.
0:28:26 I would much prefer and that’s a lot of the Midwest nice companies that are mediocre and getting disrupted by these companies coming out of out of our area in the Bay.
0:28:33 And how do you convince people that it’s OK to be candorous if that’s the right.
0:28:38 How do you take them out of being avoiding and into candor and so easy.
0:28:40 I just I introduce a practice.
0:28:47 Literally when I say to a team here’s what we’re going to do before the meeting which I know is going to be contentious.
0:28:49 Here’s a topic we’re going to discuss.
0:28:54 But before we go in to discuss it I’m going to open a Google Doc and I’m going to have you all write down.
0:28:57 What do you think there is the real problem we’re trying to solve here.
0:28:59 And what do you think is a bold solution.
0:29:03 And I don’t want any of you to to be conflict avoidant about it.
0:29:07 We need to have this on the table so we can have a good conversation and get to the root of it.
0:29:09 So that’s the pep talk I would give right.
0:29:13 Now what I do know is you might still have some people holding back a little bit.
0:29:17 But if you’re in meeting conversation if you had started the conversation in the meeting
0:29:24 the average meeting would be a two in terms of its candor and its willingness to be courageous and challenge.
0:29:28 This exercise increases psychological safety by 85 percent.
0:29:35 And it puts people into a position where they’ve got time to think and be thoughtful and they write into the document.
0:29:39 And now we have a much more candid dialogue that happened asynchronously.
0:29:41 That’s just one example.
0:29:44 The other thing is you have these and that’s a practice it’s called meeting shifting.
0:29:49 Another practice is the candor break where you’re just telling people I want you to be candid.
0:29:53 I’m going to turn what I want in my culture which isn’t present in most companies.
0:29:55 I’m going to turn it into a simple assignment.
0:29:59 Go talk in groups of two be candid to each other come back.
0:30:03 You may not get 100 percent but you’ll get 80 percent and that’s the powerful shift.
0:30:08 So the answer again is I don’t need to change your mindsets.
0:30:10 I don’t need to help you grow a pair.
0:30:12 I just need to have you do a simple practice.
0:30:17 We’ve got all the practice is delineated in the book and it will bring the results you’re looking for.
0:30:20 You use this word mindsets a couple of times.
0:30:26 Are you saying that you believe that the work of Carol Dweck and the growth mindset is fundamentally wrong?
0:30:32 Or are you just saying that the way to get to the mindset changes to do these simple practical things?
0:30:33 Exactly. Exactly.
0:30:37 Look, if you want a growth mindset, one of the things to do a great mindset is you need to be curious
0:30:39 and you need to open yourself for new inputs.
0:30:41 You need to mean more diverse.
0:30:47 Well, in chapter one of the book, we teach you that your team is no longer your chart.
0:30:51 So if you’re sitting in the marketing department or you’re sitting in a division or sales department
0:30:56 and you used to collaborate just with yourselves, you’re not being very curious.
0:30:57 You don’t have a growth mindset.
0:31:03 But if you adopt a practice, which is reengineering and asking yourself, who is our real team here?
0:31:07 Who’s our core team and who is our extended engaged team?
0:31:09 In other words, who do we need to get the job done?
0:31:13 And that all of a sudden becomes the team that you call the team.
0:31:19 Then now you’ve just done a practice that opens you up to be more inclusive.
0:31:23 And that practice will build that growth mindset because you’re going to start getting input.
0:31:24 You’re like, wow, that was amazing.
0:31:26 I never thought of that.
0:31:27 Now, I want more of that input.
0:31:33 And now we can use asynchronous collaboration and go ask for more of this input in documentation.
0:31:39 Instead of meetings, now I can have faster, more inclusive, more innovative, bolder collaboration
0:31:41 in a shorter period of time.
0:31:45 And that is exactly what you would teach in the growth mindset.
0:31:48 I’m just underlying the practices underneath it.
0:31:57 Do you think that an AI chatbot could be part of this collaboration team that you’re talking about
0:32:01 opening up Google Docs and letting people commenting into it?
0:32:06 Could a chatbot be one of the team members and participate?
0:32:09 Yeah, I don’t have a tool that does this.
0:32:11 But here’s what I might imagine would happen soon.
0:32:18 Somebody would take this book and it would actually open up and suggest to a team.
0:32:23 If in the agenda, there’s a report out, it would say, why don’t we do this as a stress test?
0:32:30 Or one might recommend prior to a meeting, hey, the last time you were together in this meeting,
0:32:34 John, you spoke 80% of the time.
0:32:41 Maybe this time before the meeting, it might be a good idea that you open yourself to hear other people’s points of view.
0:32:43 And voices in this coming meeting.
0:32:45 These are things AI can do.
0:32:52 And I do believe that very soon we’re going to have AI coaches that will be just here on our shoulder at all times.
0:32:55 So now let’s say I bought into this team ship concept.
0:33:03 And I want you to explain how is hiring and onboarding and compensation different in a team ship?
0:33:05 Yeah, it’s very interesting.
0:33:11 In one of the chapters where I was talking to Enrique, the CEO of Hewlett Packard,
0:33:15 he had a wonderful point of view, which is we need to hire for culture.
0:33:17 We need to hire for diversity.
0:33:22 And for people who say the slate isn’t really available to us to do that.
0:33:25 They’re just being lazy and they’re not waiting long enough.
0:33:27 Wait to build the right slate.
0:33:34 Now, I think the interview tactics are going to different next week on the third of doesn’t matter what month it is because I’m not sure when this will air.
0:33:39 But next week, I most likely I will have had a meeting by the time you hear this.
0:33:46 And it’s I’m having 80 executives, half for CIOs and half for CHROs.
0:33:54 And I’m bringing them together in New York City to talk about how that partnership of technology and people has to change.
0:34:01 And one of the things I’m going to try to infuse in this group is folks, you need to be curious with an engineering mindset to rethink work.
0:34:10 And neither of you is really bringing the partnership between technology, engineering work and human capital into a partnership as a group of three.
0:34:15 One of the things we’re going to look at is what are the new skill sets that executives need to do all of this?
0:34:22 And obviously, I’m giving out my book team ship because the idea is they have to team differently.
0:34:35 Like this idea that the three of these individuals, the actual work business engineers, the IT professionals and the human capital professionals, we need to change our practices in how we collaborate.
0:34:40 And that’s going to be a really important area that I think I hope this is my evangelization.
0:34:47 This is why I’m not having lunch right now, but I’m here talking to you because I want to get out into the world.
0:34:52 This call to action that it’s about time that we change work. We really do.
0:34:57 It’s about time that we change work and stop dragging ourselves through the old ways of working.
0:35:05 So if I’m the chief recruiting officer of a company that has bought into team ship and I say to you, Keith, OK, so tell me, what am I looking for?
0:35:09 Am I looking for Ivy League background, relevant work experience?
0:35:14 And what am I looking for to foster the success of a team ship?
0:35:17 I might say start with this is too easy.
0:35:24 Start with somebody who has thrived in team sports athletics, somebody who has an experience in it.
0:35:32 Not somebody who was a runner or an individual sports, you know, enthusiast, try to find team sports enthusiasts.
0:35:35 I would also might suggest that you find people who have been in the military.
0:35:42 I understand the perspective of hierarchy in the military, but the military engineers for team ship,
0:35:47 if the sergeant is killed in battle, I’m going to butcher the analogy here.
0:35:52 But if the leader is killed in battle, the team steps up and the team knows how to step up.
0:35:58 I’ve often been told by General McChrystal that you don’t take a you don’t take a hill for your country.
0:36:01 You take a hill for your buddy who’s next door to you, standing next to you.
0:36:10 This is the sense of team ship is implicit in getting the most out of a group of young men and women where, you know, everything is at stake.
0:36:14 So I feel like there’s experiences that you would look for.
0:36:16 Interestingly enough, I didn’t have those.
0:36:17 I was a wrestler all my life.
0:36:22 But starting in fifth grade in Pittsburgh, all throughout school, I was a wrestler.
0:36:25 And and I felt that I had to do a lot myself.
0:36:29 I was just that pull up by the bootstraps, believe in the American dream.
0:36:32 And I’ve had to unpack a lot.
0:36:35 My research is far out ahead of my natural instincts.
0:36:43 My natural instincts is to be much more hub and spoke, control oriented kind of a leader, and I have to fight it all the time.
0:36:45 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:36:54 If you’re the CEO and you’ve got shareholders that you’re responsible to having a goal of doubling shareholder value.
0:36:59 I don’t think the shareholders that you have to be accountable to are going to call it in SIPPET.
0:37:05 Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners.
0:37:08 It’s our pleasure and honor to make the show for you.
0:37:15 If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it even better.
0:37:19 Ford it to a friend, a big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:37:24 Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:37:32 It’s very funny because we have a lot of overlap data.
0:37:39 When I was a CEO, I hired two people from the Stanford wrestling team and you’re right.
0:37:48 That’s not a quote team sport, but I got to tell you, when you hire a wrestler, you know you’re getting somebody who’s gritty.
0:37:58 Because even if you’re on a division one wrestling team, it’s not like you’re going to get a professional wrestling contract and it’s not like basketball or baseball or football, right?
0:38:02 It’s pure grit and wrestlers never give up.
0:38:10 I was just going to say the sense that the one thing that I can say about myself as a wrestler and as a leader is I never give up.
0:38:14 And people will say that the resilience and the grit like you’re just judging.
0:38:17 But the other thing is I remember when I was a wrestler, I was the kid.
0:38:26 That if our heavyweight was sick or out, they put me in that’s like four weights above my weight class.
0:38:29 They would put me in because they knew I would never get pinned.
0:38:33 I would rather dislocate my shoulder that get pinned.
0:38:42 And that’s the kind of individual that I think wrestler wars, but it’s different, by the way, than somebody who learns how to pass the ball to win.
0:38:45 And that’s the difference in teamship.
0:38:49 As we’re let’s stay on the sports analogy for one more time.
0:38:50 You’re going to lose me.
0:38:59 I think when people I love sports analogies, when you say this uses sports team analogy, I just want to be clear for people.
0:39:02 You’re not referring to the quarterback, right?
0:39:04 You’re more referring to the offensive line.
0:39:07 I would think what I what I’m referring to.
0:39:09 So a friend of mine owns a couple of teams.
0:39:15 His name is Peter Goober and he owns he’s one of the owners of the Warriors and he’s one of the owners of the Dodgers.
0:39:19 And and what I and by the way, anyway, that’s a riff.
0:39:28 But what I can say is that it’s when I’ve talked to him and I’ve talked to his players, what happens in the locker room at halftime?
0:39:37 Not from what the coach does, but what the team does, what happens in the huddle and how the team gives feedback on plays and where they’re going.
0:39:38 It’s extraordinary, right?
0:39:40 So that’s what I’m talking about.
0:39:48 We don’t, you know, I was talking to the woman who led to victory, the women’s soccer team a few years ago.
0:39:57 And just this idea of taking a group of exceptional individual talent and turning it into a team that won’t let each other fail.
0:40:04 There’s a phrase that I use in the book, crossing the finish line together to make a group of people realize that we don’t win until we all win.
0:40:09 And that’s a different mindset than a lot of what companies have and a lot of teams have.
0:40:11 And we need to instill that.
0:40:15 You mentioned the name Stanley McChrystal.
0:40:15 Yeah.
0:40:19 And I take it you hold him high if guard.
0:40:20 I just know him.
0:40:22 I remember walking.
0:40:27 I remember he had just exited or been exited from the military and he was at the Ted conference.
0:40:33 I think he might have even been speaking and and he and I and my heart was touched by what he had gone through.
0:40:35 I always like underdogs.
0:40:40 I not I just always love people who are suffering through their remorse and I like to be of service.
0:40:45 So he and I went for a long walk and he was talking about starting a professional services firm, etc.
0:40:49 And I learned a lot from him and I’ve learned a lot from people in the military.
0:40:54 But anyway, I do have a affinity to him, but you may have a different perspective.
0:40:55 No, no, absolutely.
0:40:57 And did you read his book risk?
0:40:58 Yeah.
0:41:00 Yeah, I love that book.
0:41:03 I think it was like Peter Drucker quality book.
0:41:04 I loved his book.
0:41:05 He’s a brilliant guy.
0:41:12 And you know, like you can see his strategic mind put to to business.
0:41:14 Yeah, I’m a huge fan.
0:41:20 I think if you read risk and you read never late alone, you’d pretty much be covered.
0:41:24 You don’t need to read any more leadership books.
0:41:25 I appreciate that.
0:41:27 But I’m going to we’re going to excerpt just that.
0:41:31 We’re going to just that you can quote me.
0:41:32 We’re going to that’s a great quote.
0:41:34 That’s a great quote.
0:41:35 I got two more questions for you.
0:41:41 So first question is, how do you get people to break out of silos?
0:41:48 Yeah, it’s using this tool that I mentioned before not to be stuck too much on it of asynchronous
0:41:51 collaboration and redefining team.
0:41:53 So you put those two things together.
0:41:57 So look, the average I was the other day at a big insurance company and they were going
0:41:59 through a massive transformation.
0:42:04 They were hoping to double their share price in less than five years and they’re on their
0:42:05 way to doing that.
0:42:09 But they felt like there was some stuck in the wheels.
0:42:10 And I stood in front of this large group of folks.
0:42:15 I said, pick one critical initiative that you believe will help significantly advantage
0:42:17 the growth of this business.
0:42:21 And I want you to ask yourself, and this is an initiative that you think you could make
0:42:23 impact on.
0:42:25 First question is, who’s your team?
0:42:30 And I really coach them to think about team, not as an order chart, not as silos.
0:42:31 Just who’s your team?
0:42:33 Now, I was physically with this group.
0:42:35 I said, tonight, do me a favor.
0:42:40 I want you to find somebody outside of your organization who is a critical teammate that
0:42:42 you haven’t been treating as a teammate.
0:42:46 I want you to go up to them at dinner tonight and I want you to let them know what the passion
0:42:52 you have for this project and invite them in, not to your team, but invite them in to
0:42:56 a co-creation, invite them into their team with you.
0:43:01 Invite them into their team and say, this initiative could be something, but we’re not
0:43:04 going to get from here to there without you.
0:43:06 And invite them into a different team.
0:43:10 And when you do that, you give people that path.
0:43:12 It just starts breaking down silos.
0:43:13 People are lazy.
0:43:14 I mean, they’re busy.
0:43:15 I shouldn’t say lazy.
0:43:16 People are busy.
0:43:17 They’re preoccupied.
0:43:20 And the natural reaction is, we’re going to work in all ways of working.
0:43:22 I’m going to work in my silo.
0:43:25 I’m going to plug it in and it’ll plug into something, some other silo.
0:43:29 And when there’s a problem that silos aren’t working together, then I’m going to be resentful
0:43:31 and I’m going to try to get what I want.
0:43:34 But if I don’t get it when it was run, it’s going to turn into bad behavior.
0:43:35 That’s old ways of working.
0:43:38 And we got to just simple new practices.
0:43:43 We’ll break down old traditional things that are crushing our organizations today.
0:43:44 Now, I think AI is going to help.
0:43:51 I really do think that I’m very hopeful that AI is going to change our lives, including
0:43:56 take this book and engineer it into our work process as coaches.
0:44:01 I’m going to back up about five minutes and ask you a question here, Sol.
0:44:07 You started off this example about this company and they said that they wanted to double their
0:44:10 share price as the goal.
0:44:14 So do you ever hear a goal like that and you say, that’s the wrong kind of goal?
0:44:16 The goal is not doubling your share price.
0:44:20 The goal is, I don’t know, excellence or leadership or something.
0:44:25 Do you ever push back on that kind of, seems to me, insipid goal?
0:44:32 If you’re the CEO and you’ve got shareholders that you’re responsible to having a goal of
0:44:37 doubling shareholder value, I don’t think the shareholders that you have to be accountable
0:44:39 to are going to call it insipid.
0:44:44 But that said, and also I’m newly a venture partner at a VC called Lightspeed.
0:44:48 And I sit in these meetings now, these partner meetings that I’d never been, had exposure
0:44:52 to with such deep respect for what it takes to be a VC.
0:44:58 A lot of my friends are VCs, but they’re not, they’re just rich people spending money.
0:45:02 That’s different than a real VC, like the rigor of these organizations like Lightspeed
0:45:03 that I see.
0:45:07 But look, engineering value creation is important.
0:45:14 But that said, what I can say is the same organization has had a vision of being, like
0:45:18 they’ve said, we want to be the envidia of insurance.
0:45:19 Okay.
0:45:20 Now, what does that mean?
0:45:21 How do you engineer a product?
0:45:26 How do you engineer a level of customer experience and satisfaction and how do you re-engineer
0:45:28 the business?
0:45:32 And I literally spent an entire afternoon with these folks asking a simple question.
0:45:37 How does AI transform the customer experience and create extraordinary value?
0:45:42 And of course, following that path, you’ll get to shareholder value, but it really is
0:45:43 about the customer experience.
0:45:48 I would say that if any of these companies have a goal of re-engineering shareholder
0:45:52 value, but they’re looking at it only from finance, not looking at it from a perspective
0:45:55 of re-engineering the customer experience, then I think you’re right.
0:45:56 That’s insipid.
0:45:57 Okay.
0:45:58 So we’re both right.
0:46:00 I think we’re both in the same target.
0:46:01 Yeah.
0:46:02 Okay.
0:46:07 So I’m going to read you a quote from your book, and I just, when did you write this
0:46:08 book?
0:46:09 And like a year ago?
0:46:11 I shipped it a year ago, right?
0:46:14 But I was writing it for the last 20 years.
0:46:15 It’s funny.
0:46:18 When I wrote my first book, “Nevered Alone,” people said, “How long did it take you to
0:46:19 write that book?”
0:46:21 I said, “Well, 35 years.”
0:46:23 I tell people that too.
0:46:24 Yeah.
0:46:25 Go ahead.
0:46:26 But what was the quote?
0:46:32 So this quote is, “The most innovative teams relish and build greatness out of diverse
0:46:34 perspectives.”
0:46:40 So basically you’re supporting DEI, but DEI doesn’t seem to be so popular anymore.
0:46:44 I mean, what’s the deal here?
0:46:46 You can’t say that in Florida.
0:46:47 Yeah.
0:46:48 Now it is funny.
0:46:50 I was actually just in Florida the other day and had to ask myself, am I allowed to say
0:46:52 this on stage here?
0:46:55 So here’s what I did, and I love this.
0:47:00 Lencioni’s book inspired me 20 years ago to study the subject, five dysfunctions of
0:47:01 a team.
0:47:05 But today, 20 years later, there’s a lot of difference about teams.
0:47:12 And one of the things I wanted to ask myself was, where is the DEI journey in teams today?
0:47:13 What does it look like?
0:47:18 So I went out and I asked 26, I was at Davos a few years ago, and I started this research
0:47:19 there.
0:47:22 I asked 26 heads of DEI, a simple question.
0:47:28 If you had a team that you were responsible for coaching for the next six months, what
0:47:34 would you do with that team to make them a shining emblem of DEI for your organization,
0:47:37 for shareholder value, for the customer experience, for employee engagement?
0:47:38 What would you do?
0:47:43 None of them had an answer, because not right away, because that’s not the lens that they
0:47:44 look at the world.
0:47:48 DEI looked at the world in terms of enterprise equity.
0:47:49 They looked at policies.
0:47:54 They looked at so many different things, but I was asking you to look at what the value
0:47:57 creation opportunity was of DEI at the team level.
0:47:59 I found out a few things.
0:48:03 I’d already written most of the book when I was having this conversation, and I found
0:48:10 out that the diversity is born into chapter one when we really are asking ourselves, who
0:48:15 is the real team and what voices do we need to have heard?
0:48:19 What diverse set of voices do we need to have heard that will give us a more exponential,
0:48:22 a more breakthrough set of thinking?
0:48:23 Equity.
0:48:28 The equity that I got, the lesson that I heard from Enrique, the CEO of Hewlett Packard,
0:48:32 is listen, people say that you can’t get a diverse slate, bullshit.
0:48:36 You wait until you have a diverse slate that’s exceptional and inspires you.
0:48:39 That’s why their equity is what it is.
0:48:42 Inclusion, I found it peppered throughout the whole book.
0:48:46 If you make sure every voice is heard in a meeting, if you make sure that asynchronous
0:48:51 collaboration is the primary form of collaboration, if you’re reaching out to diverse, breaking
0:48:56 down silos, getting inputs, all of that crushes it on the inclusion.
0:49:01 What we found was most of the DE&I agenda is marbled into this book.
0:49:05 Then we added a chapter when I really interrogated to them, I was like, “What about this thing
0:49:06 called belonging?
0:49:07 How do you get people to feel like belonging?”
0:49:11 Well, that’s chapter four when it comes to the intimacy and connection of having each
0:49:12 other’s back.
0:49:14 How about otherness and sameness?
0:49:20 So I really got into it, and I marbled those in practices, and I do believe that anybody
0:49:26 who wants to embrace a diverse and equitable agenda can find the roadmap in here, but it’s
0:49:29 not about checking a box.
0:49:35 It’s about making the work better because it is listening to a diverse set of inputs
0:49:38 that will inspire us to have better outputs.
0:49:40 That’s how I want to end.
0:49:46 No, actually, I know you’re going to do a world-class one of these, so I’m going to
0:49:52 ask you to do this, not just for your own benefit, but so people can hear what a world-class
0:49:54 thing you’re going to do.
0:50:01 You’re on deck, and I want you to just summarize and pitch your book to my listeners.
0:50:02 This is it.
0:50:03 Go for it, Keith.
0:50:04 All right.
0:50:06 I want to see your evangelism in action.
0:50:07 All right.
0:50:08 Thank you, brother.
0:50:14 Look, I believe we’ve over-indexed on leadership, and we’ve under-indexed on team-ship.
0:50:21 The potential of asking a team to step up and meet you as a leader in the leadership.
0:50:25 I think it’s great that a leader gives feedback, but I want the team to give each other feedback.
0:50:27 I want the team to hold each other accountable.
0:50:29 I want the team to lift each other’s energy.
0:50:33 The principle of team-ship will allow you to achieve things you’ve never been able to
0:50:39 achieve before because the team will be giving you so much more, and it’s not just a roadmap
0:50:40 for a leader.
0:50:41 It’s a roadmap for the team itself.
0:50:42 Wow.
0:50:45 How’d I do?
0:50:48 How’d I do?
0:50:51 That is definitely a remarkable moment there.
0:50:52 It’s a key.
0:50:55 Thank you very much for giving up your lunch for me.
0:50:59 I appreciate this very much.
0:51:04 I am so honored and grateful to be back here with you and love following your journey and
0:51:05 all the work that you do.
0:51:06 Thank you very much.
0:51:08 You’re too kind.
0:51:13 You’ve just got through listening to Keith Farazzi, and his new book is called Never
0:51:17 Lead Alone, and I promise you, it’ll make you more remarkable.
0:51:20 This is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:51:21 I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:51:27 My thanks to Madison Nizmer, the producer and co-author of my book, Tessa Nizmer, who
0:51:33 is our ACE researcher, Jeff C., and Shannon Hernandez, who’s our audio team.
0:51:37 That’s the Remarkable People team, and thank you, Keith.
0:51:42 Until the third time we bring you back, just let us know what we can do.
0:51:43 Thank you very much.
0:51:50 Mahalo and Aloha.
0:51:52 This is Remarkable People.
0:00:10 Good morning, everybody.
0:00:14 This is Guy Kawasaki, and this is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:00:18 And as you know, we’re on a mission to make you remarkable.
0:00:23 So we go out and we find the most remarkable people we can to inspire you and inform you.
0:00:27 And of course, today we hit it out of the ballpark.
0:00:28 We have Keith Ferrazzi.
0:00:31 Can it get any more remarkable than that?
0:00:38 Many of you may remember him for this great book that he wrote called Never Eat Alone.
0:00:41 And wow, that was a fantastic book.
0:00:46 And now he’s with us for the second time because he’s got another great book.
0:00:51 And now instead of not eating alone, we’re going to talk about not leading alone.
0:00:53 Right, Keith?
0:00:55 Guy, it’s extraordinary to be here.
0:00:57 And I’ll just mirror right back to you.
0:00:59 You are remarkable, my friend.
0:01:01 It’s been amazing to watch all that you give to the world.
0:01:03 No, I don’t know about that.
0:01:05 You probably tell that to every podcaster.
0:01:06 I don’t actually.
0:01:09 Nobody else has called the Remarkable podcast.
0:01:13 So this was my unique opportunity.
0:01:16 So I have kind of a weird question to start off.
0:01:22 I read the forward of your book and I thought, do you ever wonder, and this is true for me too,
0:01:29 do you ever wonder where would we be if our parents were rich?
0:01:29 Oh, my God.
0:01:32 Because you came from a poor family and I did too.
0:01:34 So and I’m not trying to say that we would be better off.
0:01:39 I’m saying maybe we would be worse off if we came from a rich family.
0:01:39 It’s interesting.
0:01:43 There’s somebody out there with a name similar to yours that wrote this book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
0:01:46 And I’ve had the chance to talk to him a bit about this.
0:01:49 I thought you were going somewhere else with a question, which I’ll come back to.
0:01:55 I’m obviously blessed to have the drive, the inspiration, the desire to make an impact
0:02:00 in this world that was infused in me in a very early age from my father.
0:02:06 And also the gumption that it took for me to get where I am today and the resilience
0:02:10 as a result of coming from real abject poverty in the United States.
0:02:13 My old man was unemployed and it gave me that drive and ambition.
0:02:18 Not only did it give me a drive and ambition to be successful and to dig out of the economic
0:02:24 hole we were in, but it also gave me a mission, which is we grew up in southwestern Pennsylvania
0:02:26 in the crash of the steel industry.
0:02:32 And I saw how poor management made families destitute.
0:02:39 And that’s what I’ve been on for 20, 30 years is that desire to try to make sure the corporation
0:02:45 stay ahead of the pack so that families like ours all over the world can thrive.
0:02:45 Yeah.
0:02:46 But thanks for that question.
0:02:48 You know where I thought you were going to go with it, by the way.
0:02:53 I thought you were going to go with it as if we knew when we were younger what we know now.
0:02:57 I wish I was the leader that led this way all my life.
0:03:02 And that was the big lesson for me, which is writing this book and researching this book
0:03:05 and woken me up to my own leadership needs.
0:03:06 And you know what?
0:03:10 I would make the case that it’s better late than never, first of all.
0:03:16 But also it may take 50 or 60 or 70 years to figure out what’s in that book.
0:03:19 I don’t think you can figure that out at 20.
0:03:19 No, you’re right.
0:03:25 In fact, I wrote Never Eat Alone and it was about my life and how I achieved success through
0:03:30 and with opening doors and relationships, networking, one might speak.
0:03:34 And then I kept on that relationship thread and I started doing more and more research
0:03:38 about how small groups of people support each other through transformation,
0:03:42 which really evolved my passion for high performing teams.
0:03:46 So for 20 years now, I’ve been researching how does a small group
0:03:50 of people perform disproportionately more than others?
0:03:54 And that’s, it has been 20 years of research, 20 years of coaching some
0:03:58 of the most extraordinary turnarounds like at General Motors, some
0:04:00 of the fastest growth unicorns now, even governments.
0:04:06 We’re working with the country of Bhutan to infuse the principles of co-elevation
0:04:12 and teamship in how they govern as they double their GDP and keep their happiness index.
0:04:14 It’s been 20 years of work.
0:04:19 So first of all, could you define for the audience your concept?
0:04:22 I think you invented this word “teamship.”
0:04:24 I love the word “teamship.”
0:04:27 So what does it mean from Keith Farrasi?
0:04:27 Well, I want to give you credit.
0:04:32 It was one of my teams actually, one of my teammates that designed the word “teamship”
0:04:34 and woke that up for me.
0:04:38 A “teamship” is the recognition and I feel, I know this is going to sound heretical.
0:04:44 I think we’ve over-indexed on leadership, under-indexed on “teamship.”
0:04:48 Now, leadership of course is important and I think it deserves all the credit it’s been getting.
0:04:50 How do you be a great leader?
0:04:56 But there were no guidebooks out there on what to expect from a high-performing team.
0:05:02 Lencioni’s book “20 Years Old Now” was a book about what are the dysfunctions of a team.
0:05:07 I wanted to give a very prescriptive roadmap on how a team becomes exceptional.
0:05:13 And what we did was we recognized that if you look at a good leader, they give feedback.
0:05:16 But a great team gives each other feedback.
0:05:20 If you look at a good leader, make sure that the team has good energy.
0:05:22 A great team makes sure each other has energy.
0:05:25 A great team holds each other accountable.
0:05:32 A great team is responsible for each other’s resilience, is responsible for each other’s ideas and fortitude.
0:05:40 And giving them what I call “co-elevation,” a purposeful mission, but forcing to lift each other up in the process.
0:05:46 Now, if a leader can unleash that, it is asymptotic in terms of what can be achieved.
0:05:50 I was about to ask you what are the tells of a lack of “teamship.”
0:05:54 But you just listed them there, is there anything you left out?
0:06:01 No, I did. The book is, what we found, our research is a 3,000 team dataset over 20 years.
0:06:03 And that’s what you get when you get this book.
0:06:10 And what we’ve done is we’ve broken it down into 10 critical shifts that a team needs to make.
0:06:14 Each chapter is a shift. Each chapter starts with a hero’s story.
0:06:20 And then right after that, around that particular shift, real simple practices that the team can try on.
0:06:24 The intention is to use it as a book club and the book becomes your coach.
0:06:30 I wanted to put myself into every team out there in the world that I couldn’t get to using the book.
0:06:33 And so there are 10 shifts, and I just mentioned a few that are really important.
0:06:40 One of them is candor and the willingness for a team to move from conflict avoidance to real courage.
0:06:46 Another one is very purposeful bonding and having each other’s back, the connectivity of a team.
0:06:48 Those two are very important.
0:06:56 I would say of the 10 shifts, there’s probably three or four that I can say are disproportionately predictive of a team’s outcomes.
0:07:07 So back up for a second for me. Let’s say I’m listening to this and I even bought the book and I just want to give me the gist of how do I conduct team diagnostics?
0:07:11 How do I assess the level of teamship on my team?
0:07:13 Yeah, let me just use one chapter.
0:07:21 So the first two chapters are the forward to the book and the awakening that you should expect more from a team that’s chapters one and two.
0:07:27 But let me dive right into a practical chapter three and chapter three has a couple of questions that you ask your team.
0:07:34 One of them is a diagnostic question that I have done with thousands of teams and it’s a simple question.
0:07:42 Do we challenge each other in the room when it’s risky to do so, even when it’s outside of our swim lanes or areas of expertise?
0:07:48 So that’s a complicated question, but the bottom line is do we challenge each other actively here, even when it’s risky?
0:07:54 Now, the average team on a scale of zero to five is actually only about two or less than two.
0:07:56 I can give you a couple of simple practices.
0:08:00 One practice is actually called a candor break.
0:08:06 Put onto your agendas of your meetings a simple line that says we’re going to do a candor break.
0:08:13 It’s when you stop in the middle of the meeting and you ask the team what’s not being said in here that needs to be said.
0:08:16 Now, you don’t just do it in an open forum with eight people.
0:08:20 You have them go into groups of two and you have them chat for even 30 seconds.
0:08:24 What’s not being said that should be said, then you restart the conversation.
0:08:31 In that small group of two, psychological safety goes up by 85% and people will begin to have a very different conversation afterward.
0:08:36 That’s one of four of the practices in chapter three called a candor break.
0:08:42 Now, there are a few others and we can get into them if you’d like to because they’re really useful for your listeners to dive into.
0:08:50 But the first thing you do is you diagnose where you are, you do a couple of the practices and then a couple of months later, you diagnose again.
0:08:57 And I promise you that what we find is the average candor score of a team is usually in the low twos, high ones.
0:09:04 And then that goes up to the low threes in less than a few months and it goes up into the high threes, low fours within six months.
0:09:06 If you do the practices regularly.
0:09:12 So the intention is you do the practices, you change your culture and you get different outcomes.
0:09:15 I understand what these teammates are doing.
0:09:22 But now what kind of mental framework does the leader have to ensure the success of a teamship?
0:09:24 Yeah, there’s a phrase I love to use.
0:09:28 I might have used the last time we together, but it’s we’re behavioral scientists.
0:09:30 We just study practices.
0:09:35 I don’t I’m just like I said, I think we’ve over indexed on leadership.
0:09:38 I’m going to say I think we over indexed on mindsets.
0:09:41 I believe that you don’t think your way to a new way of acting.
0:09:43 You act your way to a new way of thinking.
0:09:49 I don’t need a leader to adopt a different mindset in order to read my book and start to practice it.
0:09:53 I just want a leader to have the courage to try a few of the practices.
0:10:01 And if you try a few of the practices, you’ll wake up and realize how much pent up value is in your team that you’re letting sit there.
0:10:05 So there’s one of the practices is called it is called a stress test.
0:10:11 So a stress test, a lot of us do these things called report outs in our team meetings.
0:10:15 We show somebody will show up and they’ll say, worst case, they’re going through a 20 page deck.
0:10:16 Here’s where we are in this day.
0:10:17 Oh my God, it’s horrible.
0:10:19 I’m sure you’ve never seen that before, right?
0:10:27 So you would instead we go through something called a stress test where the person shows up and on one page says, here’s what I’ve achieved.
0:10:31 Here’s where I’m struggling and here’s where I’m going.
0:10:39 Now, everybody knows what each other is doing anyway, but this initiative is now summarized this way and you pause and you once again go into small groups of two or three.
0:10:45 And in those groups, you open up a Google doc and in the Google doc, you write, here’s where I challenge you.
0:10:47 You might be missing this.
0:10:48 Here’s an idea.
0:10:51 I’m going to give you and here’s some support.
0:10:56 I’d like to offer a simple assignment has now rebooted your culture.
0:10:59 I wrote an article about this in Fortune magazine a couple of weeks ago.
0:11:07 If you want to just go look at my name and fortune, you’ll see this article and it talks about how one simple practice can totally reboot a culture.
0:11:15 This stress testing, if you regularly practice stress testing and every associate shows up and is willing to get feedback from the team directly.
0:11:23 You’re priming the pump to open up the value that this team can give each other without you always being the hub and spoke.
0:11:31 And in this world, does all of this have to be done in person or can we use digital collaboration?
0:11:46 Chapter six, chapter six recognizes that the tools that we have been sitting on Microsoft Teams, Google, WebEx, Zoom, there’s a robust set of tools now having AI complement those tools.
0:11:59 Your teammates are now expanded to include AI and these collaborative tools that are available to us are extraordinary project management software, knowledge management software, the stuff that Drew Halston’s doing over at Dropbox is amazing.
0:12:05 Now, I want to make sure that we start to become what I call 21st century collaborators.
0:12:09 Stop using damn meetings as the primary form of collaboration.
0:12:15 If you’re a leader that that sees a problem and actually there’s a wonderful example of this.
0:12:24 I don’t know if you ever met Gil West, who was at United Airlines went over to Cruz, the self driving car company.
0:12:25 He went over there and he was looking around.
0:12:27 He’s, you know what? I see a problem here.
0:12:28 Let’s have a meeting on it.
0:12:38 And these kids out of Stanford, which is where most of these kids that that bird these companies, they looked at Gil this western or this guy from the south, the southerner.
0:12:40 And he said, Gil, how do we have a meeting on it?
0:12:42 We haven’t collaborated yet.
0:12:46 So these kids collaborate in the cloud, multiple cycles.
0:12:53 They figure out what the big problems are we’re trying to solve, what the big barriers are, what innovation innovative solutions we have.
0:12:57 Then they have meetings to land the plane if they need it, right?
0:13:04 So we’ve got to do what I call meeting shifting, where we ignore this idea that meetings are the primary form of our collaboration.
0:13:09 This book has been able to reduce the number of meetings by 30% in most teams.
0:13:15 I’m almost afraid to ask, what do you think of these companies who are mandating return to office then?
0:13:24 Okay, look, I’ve got some very good friendships with some of these executives who very well known right now for bringing everybody back to the office.
0:13:26 So here’s what I’ll say.
0:13:31 I don’t want to have a dog in the hunt as to whether or not we need to be in the office or out of the office for a moment.
0:13:33 But here’s what I can tell you.
0:13:40 I’m going to use two folks you probably know, Drew Houston, Matt Mullenweg, Drew from Dropbox, Matt Mullenweg from WordPress.
0:13:51 The two of those folks during the pandemic found that they were feeling that their companies were suffering from a drain in energy relationships.
0:13:55 They sensed that the culture was eroding because they were virtual.
0:14:02 Now, some CEOs, when they felt that their natural reaction was, let’s get everybody back to the office as soon as we can.
0:14:06 And what I’m going to put words in their mouth, they’re not saying this, but it’s how they’re acting.
0:14:14 They’re basically saying, let’s get everybody back to the office to practice serendipity bonding, which is how that we build our culture.
0:14:16 We want people to bump into each other in hallways, etc.
0:14:21 Drew and Matt decided to say, you know what we’re going to do?
0:14:23 We’re going to not practice serendipity bonding.
0:14:25 We’re going to practice purposeful bonding.
0:14:28 Every week, we’re going to do energy checks.
0:14:35 These energy checks are going to act as a safety net where everybody’s going to go around and say, here’s what’s draining my energy.
0:14:39 On a scale of zero to five, here’s where I am and here’s what’s draining my energy.
0:14:48 These energy checks, the average relationship score of a team prior to the pandemic when they were doing serendipity bonding was in the mid to high twos.
0:14:53 When you went into the pandemic, it went down into the low twos because people didn’t see each other.
0:14:59 When you started practicing purposeful bonding, it ended up going up into the mid to high threes.
0:15:07 The point that I would make is if you’re going to be virtual or hybrid, which any global company is anyway, right?
0:15:14 Then you need to use 21st century collaboration and you need to use purposeful cultural building tactics and practices.
0:15:17 That will actually get you on a steady state.
0:15:27 You can actually do a better job in a hybrid virtual world than you did just using accidental serendipitous ways of connecting and collaborating.
0:15:35 If you want to bring everybody back into the office because there’s an extra spriticore and you can recruit people who want to be in that office and still have that kind of an energy.
0:15:38 I would still recommend you read chapter six.
0:15:48 You still build that sort of purposeful collaboration tools and you build in chapter four those purposeful bonding skills and you’ll crush it either way.
0:15:54 The people that I know that are being forced to return to office.
0:15:57 It’s not this spirit of serendipity.
0:16:07 It’s more we’re going to check your badge on the way in and we’re going to know exactly when you came and when you left and you need to be there for such and such many days per week per minute.
0:16:11 It’s like a it’s like punching a time clock for knowledge workers.
0:16:14 I wouldn’t say there’s anything to do with serendipity.
0:16:17 I’ll riff for a moment and I do in the book.
0:16:24 One of the things that I realized when I finished writing the book as I looked back on all the heroes that I celebrated in the book.
0:16:35 Almost all of them were engineers and it made me realize something and that was that the people who put their mind to reengineering ways of working.
0:16:45 Ended up thriving as leaders versus those who left the ways of working to be more accidental or legacy oriented.
0:16:47 I’ll say it a slightly different way.
0:16:54 When the pandemic hit we looked over at the HR department and we said it’s your job to figure this work thing out.
0:17:00 And so HR people like governance people put a hat on around policy.
0:17:06 So it was about checking the boxes of being in the office or how much zoom time do you actually have.
0:17:12 Could we possibly measure how much fingers are on keyboards during the day.
0:17:15 It was policy and auditing for it right.
0:17:18 But there was another group of people that said wait a second.
0:17:20 We’re in a different world today.
0:17:22 We have technologies we didn’t have before.
0:17:26 We have opportunity and potential to reinvent working.
0:17:29 What would that look like if we reinvented collaboration.
0:17:31 And that’s what I’ve documented here.
0:17:33 And I and that’s an engineering.
0:17:34 That’s a reengineering.
0:17:37 Ask yourself in the average company who is reengineering work today.
0:17:38 Whose job is it.
0:17:41 Software engineers did agile.
0:17:44 Manufacturing engineers did six sigma and TQM.
0:17:48 Both of those were new ways of working that got reengineered.
0:17:52 Now we need to reengineer collaboration in white color teaming.
0:17:56 How and I and look I started out my life as an industrial engineer.
0:17:59 That’s what I’m trying to bring as a behavioral scientist as an engineer.
0:18:03 New ways of working new ways of teaming that will help us crush it.
0:18:05 Correct me if I am wrong.
0:18:09 But in reading your book and even just listening to you now.
0:18:17 It seems that the concept of this lone genius this superstar visionary cowboy.
0:18:21 The obvious examples are Steve Jobs and Elon Musk.
0:18:25 I don’t remember much team ship in the Macintosh division.
0:18:33 So are these two people just outliers or should they be our heroes or anti heroes.
0:18:38 I love that question and I earnestly ask that question myself.
0:18:45 And because I went through and what I did was I studied people like to rank over at Elf Beauty.
0:18:53 Who has been absolutely crushing it against the this is a small organization that is now eating market share significantly.
0:18:58 Against the big beauty companies and its entire culture is bred from team ship.
0:19:00 It was chapter 10 and I can share a little bit more about it.
0:19:07 But I just went and looked at companies that were crushing it and extracted their practices and I found team ship was embedded.
0:19:09 I started doing the same thing for Elon Musk.
0:19:13 About six months ago I put a research team our research institute.
0:19:19 I signed a research team of two people to really go and scour.
0:19:23 What are the practices of Elon Musk and why he’s been successful.
0:19:28 I finished that research and was ready to actually consider writing a book on it because I thought it was really intriguing.
0:19:35 And I found out that a friend of mine Dennis Neil is also just releasing a book and was already going to press on the exact same subject.
0:19:37 What makes this man exceptional.
0:19:39 And I do think that we can do both.
0:19:46 The social contract at a place like Elf Beauty from Terrang is come here.
0:19:47 You will thrive.
0:19:53 You will grow faster and further than you ever have your but you have to be willing to let your team push you higher.
0:19:55 Your team needs to give you feedback.
0:19:57 Your team needs to lift you up.
0:20:01 You’re going to you’re going to love on each other and you’re going to grow and we’re going to kick ass.
0:20:04 That’s the Terrang social contract at Elf Beauty.
0:20:12 The social contract over at you know at a place like SpaceX or anywhere else that Elon Musk is prevailing is come here.
0:20:17 You’re going to get your ass kicked and we’re going to do extraordinary fucking things.
0:20:17 Right.
0:20:20 It’s that’s a social contract that some people buy into.
0:20:25 But I think you’re quite limited to the number of people who want to be in that social contract.
0:20:30 If you want to scale if you want to create extraordinary products.
0:20:38 Yes. You could have an extraordinary visionary like Elon or like or like jobs and you can count on them to dictate the answer.
0:20:45 Or we can start looking at innovations and crowdsourcing of insights where we can get inspired from diverse inputs.
0:20:53 Like things like XPRIZE and our friend Peter Diamandis espouses which is the wisdom of the crowds to inspire in great innovation.
0:20:56 There’s two different philosophies and I think there’s things we can learn from.
0:21:17 I’m going to ask you a question that maybe you don’t want to answer.
0:21:33 So let’s say that Donald Trump’s nominations all go through and Donald Trump’s chief of staff calls you up and says Keith.
0:21:38 I want you to help me make a team ship out of this cabinet.
0:21:39 Yeah.
0:21:41 I don’t know how and what do you do.
0:21:45 Did you just pull that out of the air or did you do some research.
0:21:47 OK. Interesting.
0:21:51 And I mean what kind of research do you need to do to ask that question.
0:22:01 The research is that at the beginning of the Biden administration exactly this time at the transfer of power from the prior administration to the Biden administration.
0:22:11 I wrote an article in Fast Company which is my advice to the Biden administration for how he should run his cabinet and how his cabinet should treat the hill.
0:22:14 Now they took none of it and I didn’t get any calls.
0:22:17 But I’ll tell you look very interesting.
0:22:23 I did study this and as a result of writing this piece you can go back and find it in Fast Company four years ago.
0:22:31 And what would I recognize was the cabinet is a bunch of very high powered billion people and whether you like their politics etc.
0:22:32 They are what they are.
0:22:35 And each of those individuals run their domains.
0:22:39 There is no interdependency among that group of people.
0:22:42 The simple practice of stress testing.
0:22:53 Imagine Dr. Oz showing up in that cabinet and asking here’s where I here’s my analysis so far of what I think Medicare and Medicaid has got to do.
0:22:57 Here’s where I’m struggling to figure this out and here’s where I’m planning to go.
0:23:03 And then the team the cabinet would go into small groups and say here’s what you’re missing.
0:23:05 Here’s an idea.
0:23:07 Call me here if you’d like some help.
0:23:12 That simple practice of stress testing would make that group so much more effective.
0:23:17 Then the next question is and this is the first thing I ask in this book is who’s your team.
0:23:24 Look the reality of government and the reality of business is that our teams have nothing to do with org charts.
0:23:27 If you want to get something done you need the people up on the hill.
0:23:29 You need the bureaucrats.
0:23:31 You need the congressman the senators.
0:23:38 They’re your team and yet we think and we treat each other as the silos in business and in government.
0:23:50 The work that I’m doing with the country of Bhutan is interesting because in Bhutan you’ve got a very small country that is revered by people all over the world for being one of the happiest places in the world.
0:23:58 They’re looking to make leaps forward in their economic growth and like every other government they were traditionally thinking about it in silos.
0:24:00 You’ve got the secretaries.
0:24:07 You’ve got the ministers one politic one bureaucrat very separate and then you’ve got the private sector.
0:24:20 We’re looking at how those groups can come together as one team one team which allows the government officials to truly what I call teaming out and crush it in terms of innovative new ideas that they would have never never been able to do before.
0:24:34 So the answer to your question is if I got that call I would be surprised but if I got that call of course I grew up as a kid wanting to make a difference in this world when the steel industry was crashing.
0:24:42 I wanted to be a politician and I wanted to grow up and be governor of Pennsylvania president United States and fix American manufacturing.
0:24:50 I’m doing it from a different lens today. I’m doing it from the perspective of thought leadership and the perspective of behavioral science around teams.
0:24:53 I would of course serve my country in any way that I could.
0:25:04 So you would say yes I would say yes and I would just invite me when you tell Dr. Oz to have this conversation with I don’t know.
0:25:10 I can’t say Matt Gates anymore because he dropped out but that would have been a conversation I would like to hear.
0:25:17 I can’t say that these practices are easy to implement everywhere.
0:25:31 If you’ve got if you’ve got a tin-eared narcissistic leader that is unwilling to open themselves to critique and open dialogue which I have sometimes seen in my career.
0:25:35 It’s more difficult to get the team to be psychologically safe to do this.
0:25:43 Although I remember a leader of a large telecom company international telecom company that that was exactly that kind of person.
0:25:50 And what ended up happening is the team applied these principles out of salvation for themselves.
0:26:00 The leader was narcissistic difficult challenging and the team rallied together to be the kind of leaders that they were all were asking for for each other.
0:26:09 They were able to I would say not thrive because it was difficult but they were certainly able to co-elevate as a team.
0:26:13 But imagine if the leader embraces that journey.
0:26:16 Okay I’ll let you off the hook now.
0:26:19 Don’t you have in mind you can ask anything my friend.
0:26:22 Love it.
0:26:31 Would you explain the difference between candor and conflict because I think many people don’t differentiate the two.
0:26:32 It’s actually a great question.
0:26:44 And I think that there’s conflict avoidance which I find right in most companies which is why this score about can we challenge each other when it’s risky to do so is low.
0:26:49 I think a lot of people think of conflict as disrespect where there’s disagreement.
0:26:52 I think healthy conflict is necessary.
0:26:56 I believe I would be curious if you go back in the Macintosh days.
0:27:02 Was there ever a healthy conflict where people pushed in each other with or I don’t know if they felt psychologically safe to do that.
0:27:06 That’s obviously a ground foundation that you’ve got to give.
0:27:08 There’s two ways to get to psychological safety by the way.
0:27:12 You can hire for it where Ray Dalio does that.
0:27:14 I think Amazon tries to do that.
0:27:20 You hire for people that are resilient and capable of arguing and challenging each other.
0:27:26 Not disrespectfully but just able to be stressful in their interaction sometimes even competitive.
0:27:29 But it actually gets to a higher order product.
0:27:31 That’s one solution.
0:27:37 There’s another solution which is you build it through a sense of trust empathy and care for each other.
0:27:43 One people one place in most conflict avoidance companies would say I’m not going to challenge our peers.
0:27:45 That would be throwing them under the boss.
0:27:48 Others would say course I’m going to challenge my peers.
0:27:51 I wouldn’t dare let them fail right.
0:27:57 So this perspective of care and commitment conflict does not mean disrespect.
0:28:01 Conflict is healthy to get to a better answer.
0:28:09 I would always bet on a company that had healthy and even sometimes unhealthy conflict at its core.
0:28:16 Then a nice company that has political talking behind each other’s backs the meeting after the meetings the conflict avoidance.
0:28:26 I would much prefer and that’s a lot of the Midwest nice companies that are mediocre and getting disrupted by these companies coming out of out of our area in the Bay.
0:28:33 And how do you convince people that it’s OK to be candorous if that’s the right.
0:28:38 How do you take them out of being avoiding and into candor and so easy.
0:28:40 I just I introduce a practice.
0:28:47 Literally when I say to a team here’s what we’re going to do before the meeting which I know is going to be contentious.
0:28:49 Here’s a topic we’re going to discuss.
0:28:54 But before we go in to discuss it I’m going to open a Google Doc and I’m going to have you all write down.
0:28:57 What do you think there is the real problem we’re trying to solve here.
0:28:59 And what do you think is a bold solution.
0:29:03 And I don’t want any of you to to be conflict avoidant about it.
0:29:07 We need to have this on the table so we can have a good conversation and get to the root of it.
0:29:09 So that’s the pep talk I would give right.
0:29:13 Now what I do know is you might still have some people holding back a little bit.
0:29:17 But if you’re in meeting conversation if you had started the conversation in the meeting
0:29:24 the average meeting would be a two in terms of its candor and its willingness to be courageous and challenge.
0:29:28 This exercise increases psychological safety by 85 percent.
0:29:35 And it puts people into a position where they’ve got time to think and be thoughtful and they write into the document.
0:29:39 And now we have a much more candid dialogue that happened asynchronously.
0:29:41 That’s just one example.
0:29:44 The other thing is you have these and that’s a practice it’s called meeting shifting.
0:29:49 Another practice is the candor break where you’re just telling people I want you to be candid.
0:29:53 I’m going to turn what I want in my culture which isn’t present in most companies.
0:29:55 I’m going to turn it into a simple assignment.
0:29:59 Go talk in groups of two be candid to each other come back.
0:30:03 You may not get 100 percent but you’ll get 80 percent and that’s the powerful shift.
0:30:08 So the answer again is I don’t need to change your mindsets.
0:30:10 I don’t need to help you grow a pair.
0:30:12 I just need to have you do a simple practice.
0:30:17 We’ve got all the practice is delineated in the book and it will bring the results you’re looking for.
0:30:20 You use this word mindsets a couple of times.
0:30:26 Are you saying that you believe that the work of Carol Dweck and the growth mindset is fundamentally wrong?
0:30:32 Or are you just saying that the way to get to the mindset changes to do these simple practical things?
0:30:33 Exactly. Exactly.
0:30:37 Look, if you want a growth mindset, one of the things to do a great mindset is you need to be curious
0:30:39 and you need to open yourself for new inputs.
0:30:41 You need to mean more diverse.
0:30:47 Well, in chapter one of the book, we teach you that your team is no longer your chart.
0:30:51 So if you’re sitting in the marketing department or you’re sitting in a division or sales department
0:30:56 and you used to collaborate just with yourselves, you’re not being very curious.
0:30:57 You don’t have a growth mindset.
0:31:03 But if you adopt a practice, which is reengineering and asking yourself, who is our real team here?
0:31:07 Who’s our core team and who is our extended engaged team?
0:31:09 In other words, who do we need to get the job done?
0:31:13 And that all of a sudden becomes the team that you call the team.
0:31:19 Then now you’ve just done a practice that opens you up to be more inclusive.
0:31:23 And that practice will build that growth mindset because you’re going to start getting input.
0:31:24 You’re like, wow, that was amazing.
0:31:26 I never thought of that.
0:31:27 Now, I want more of that input.
0:31:33 And now we can use asynchronous collaboration and go ask for more of this input in documentation.
0:31:39 Instead of meetings, now I can have faster, more inclusive, more innovative, bolder collaboration
0:31:41 in a shorter period of time.
0:31:45 And that is exactly what you would teach in the growth mindset.
0:31:48 I’m just underlying the practices underneath it.
0:31:57 Do you think that an AI chatbot could be part of this collaboration team that you’re talking about
0:32:01 opening up Google Docs and letting people commenting into it?
0:32:06 Could a chatbot be one of the team members and participate?
0:32:09 Yeah, I don’t have a tool that does this.
0:32:11 But here’s what I might imagine would happen soon.
0:32:18 Somebody would take this book and it would actually open up and suggest to a team.
0:32:23 If in the agenda, there’s a report out, it would say, why don’t we do this as a stress test?
0:32:30 Or one might recommend prior to a meeting, hey, the last time you were together in this meeting,
0:32:34 John, you spoke 80% of the time.
0:32:41 Maybe this time before the meeting, it might be a good idea that you open yourself to hear other people’s points of view.
0:32:43 And voices in this coming meeting.
0:32:45 These are things AI can do.
0:32:52 And I do believe that very soon we’re going to have AI coaches that will be just here on our shoulder at all times.
0:32:55 So now let’s say I bought into this team ship concept.
0:33:03 And I want you to explain how is hiring and onboarding and compensation different in a team ship?
0:33:05 Yeah, it’s very interesting.
0:33:11 In one of the chapters where I was talking to Enrique, the CEO of Hewlett Packard,
0:33:15 he had a wonderful point of view, which is we need to hire for culture.
0:33:17 We need to hire for diversity.
0:33:22 And for people who say the slate isn’t really available to us to do that.
0:33:25 They’re just being lazy and they’re not waiting long enough.
0:33:27 Wait to build the right slate.
0:33:34 Now, I think the interview tactics are going to different next week on the third of doesn’t matter what month it is because I’m not sure when this will air.
0:33:39 But next week, I most likely I will have had a meeting by the time you hear this.
0:33:46 And it’s I’m having 80 executives, half for CIOs and half for CHROs.
0:33:54 And I’m bringing them together in New York City to talk about how that partnership of technology and people has to change.
0:34:01 And one of the things I’m going to try to infuse in this group is folks, you need to be curious with an engineering mindset to rethink work.
0:34:10 And neither of you is really bringing the partnership between technology, engineering work and human capital into a partnership as a group of three.
0:34:15 One of the things we’re going to look at is what are the new skill sets that executives need to do all of this?
0:34:22 And obviously, I’m giving out my book team ship because the idea is they have to team differently.
0:34:35 Like this idea that the three of these individuals, the actual work business engineers, the IT professionals and the human capital professionals, we need to change our practices in how we collaborate.
0:34:40 And that’s going to be a really important area that I think I hope this is my evangelization.
0:34:47 This is why I’m not having lunch right now, but I’m here talking to you because I want to get out into the world.
0:34:52 This call to action that it’s about time that we change work. We really do.
0:34:57 It’s about time that we change work and stop dragging ourselves through the old ways of working.
0:35:05 So if I’m the chief recruiting officer of a company that has bought into team ship and I say to you, Keith, OK, so tell me, what am I looking for?
0:35:09 Am I looking for Ivy League background, relevant work experience?
0:35:14 And what am I looking for to foster the success of a team ship?
0:35:17 I might say start with this is too easy.
0:35:24 Start with somebody who has thrived in team sports athletics, somebody who has an experience in it.
0:35:32 Not somebody who was a runner or an individual sports, you know, enthusiast, try to find team sports enthusiasts.
0:35:35 I would also might suggest that you find people who have been in the military.
0:35:42 I understand the perspective of hierarchy in the military, but the military engineers for team ship,
0:35:47 if the sergeant is killed in battle, I’m going to butcher the analogy here.
0:35:52 But if the leader is killed in battle, the team steps up and the team knows how to step up.
0:35:58 I’ve often been told by General McChrystal that you don’t take a you don’t take a hill for your country.
0:36:01 You take a hill for your buddy who’s next door to you, standing next to you.
0:36:10 This is the sense of team ship is implicit in getting the most out of a group of young men and women where, you know, everything is at stake.
0:36:14 So I feel like there’s experiences that you would look for.
0:36:16 Interestingly enough, I didn’t have those.
0:36:17 I was a wrestler all my life.
0:36:22 But starting in fifth grade in Pittsburgh, all throughout school, I was a wrestler.
0:36:25 And and I felt that I had to do a lot myself.
0:36:29 I was just that pull up by the bootstraps, believe in the American dream.
0:36:32 And I’ve had to unpack a lot.
0:36:35 My research is far out ahead of my natural instincts.
0:36:43 My natural instincts is to be much more hub and spoke, control oriented kind of a leader, and I have to fight it all the time.
0:36:45 Up next on Remarkable People.
0:36:54 If you’re the CEO and you’ve got shareholders that you’re responsible to having a goal of doubling shareholder value.
0:36:59 I don’t think the shareholders that you have to be accountable to are going to call it in SIPPET.
0:37:05 Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners.
0:37:08 It’s our pleasure and honor to make the show for you.
0:37:15 If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it even better.
0:37:19 Ford it to a friend, a big mahalo to you for doing this.
0:37:24 Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.
0:37:32 It’s very funny because we have a lot of overlap data.
0:37:39 When I was a CEO, I hired two people from the Stanford wrestling team and you’re right.
0:37:48 That’s not a quote team sport, but I got to tell you, when you hire a wrestler, you know you’re getting somebody who’s gritty.
0:37:58 Because even if you’re on a division one wrestling team, it’s not like you’re going to get a professional wrestling contract and it’s not like basketball or baseball or football, right?
0:38:02 It’s pure grit and wrestlers never give up.
0:38:10 I was just going to say the sense that the one thing that I can say about myself as a wrestler and as a leader is I never give up.
0:38:14 And people will say that the resilience and the grit like you’re just judging.
0:38:17 But the other thing is I remember when I was a wrestler, I was the kid.
0:38:26 That if our heavyweight was sick or out, they put me in that’s like four weights above my weight class.
0:38:29 They would put me in because they knew I would never get pinned.
0:38:33 I would rather dislocate my shoulder that get pinned.
0:38:42 And that’s the kind of individual that I think wrestler wars, but it’s different, by the way, than somebody who learns how to pass the ball to win.
0:38:45 And that’s the difference in teamship.
0:38:49 As we’re let’s stay on the sports analogy for one more time.
0:38:50 You’re going to lose me.
0:38:59 I think when people I love sports analogies, when you say this uses sports team analogy, I just want to be clear for people.
0:39:02 You’re not referring to the quarterback, right?
0:39:04 You’re more referring to the offensive line.
0:39:07 I would think what I what I’m referring to.
0:39:09 So a friend of mine owns a couple of teams.
0:39:15 His name is Peter Goober and he owns he’s one of the owners of the Warriors and he’s one of the owners of the Dodgers.
0:39:19 And and what I and by the way, anyway, that’s a riff.
0:39:28 But what I can say is that it’s when I’ve talked to him and I’ve talked to his players, what happens in the locker room at halftime?
0:39:37 Not from what the coach does, but what the team does, what happens in the huddle and how the team gives feedback on plays and where they’re going.
0:39:38 It’s extraordinary, right?
0:39:40 So that’s what I’m talking about.
0:39:48 We don’t, you know, I was talking to the woman who led to victory, the women’s soccer team a few years ago.
0:39:57 And just this idea of taking a group of exceptional individual talent and turning it into a team that won’t let each other fail.
0:40:04 There’s a phrase that I use in the book, crossing the finish line together to make a group of people realize that we don’t win until we all win.
0:40:09 And that’s a different mindset than a lot of what companies have and a lot of teams have.
0:40:11 And we need to instill that.
0:40:15 You mentioned the name Stanley McChrystal.
0:40:15 Yeah.
0:40:19 And I take it you hold him high if guard.
0:40:20 I just know him.
0:40:22 I remember walking.
0:40:27 I remember he had just exited or been exited from the military and he was at the Ted conference.
0:40:33 I think he might have even been speaking and and he and I and my heart was touched by what he had gone through.
0:40:35 I always like underdogs.
0:40:40 I not I just always love people who are suffering through their remorse and I like to be of service.
0:40:45 So he and I went for a long walk and he was talking about starting a professional services firm, etc.
0:40:49 And I learned a lot from him and I’ve learned a lot from people in the military.
0:40:54 But anyway, I do have a affinity to him, but you may have a different perspective.
0:40:55 No, no, absolutely.
0:40:57 And did you read his book risk?
0:40:58 Yeah.
0:41:00 Yeah, I love that book.
0:41:03 I think it was like Peter Drucker quality book.
0:41:04 I loved his book.
0:41:05 He’s a brilliant guy.
0:41:12 And you know, like you can see his strategic mind put to to business.
0:41:14 Yeah, I’m a huge fan.
0:41:20 I think if you read risk and you read never late alone, you’d pretty much be covered.
0:41:24 You don’t need to read any more leadership books.
0:41:25 I appreciate that.
0:41:27 But I’m going to we’re going to excerpt just that.
0:41:31 We’re going to just that you can quote me.
0:41:32 We’re going to that’s a great quote.
0:41:34 That’s a great quote.
0:41:35 I got two more questions for you.
0:41:41 So first question is, how do you get people to break out of silos?
0:41:48 Yeah, it’s using this tool that I mentioned before not to be stuck too much on it of asynchronous
0:41:51 collaboration and redefining team.
0:41:53 So you put those two things together.
0:41:57 So look, the average I was the other day at a big insurance company and they were going
0:41:59 through a massive transformation.
0:42:04 They were hoping to double their share price in less than five years and they’re on their
0:42:05 way to doing that.
0:42:09 But they felt like there was some stuck in the wheels.
0:42:10 And I stood in front of this large group of folks.
0:42:15 I said, pick one critical initiative that you believe will help significantly advantage
0:42:17 the growth of this business.
0:42:21 And I want you to ask yourself, and this is an initiative that you think you could make
0:42:23 impact on.
0:42:25 First question is, who’s your team?
0:42:30 And I really coach them to think about team, not as an order chart, not as silos.
0:42:31 Just who’s your team?
0:42:33 Now, I was physically with this group.
0:42:35 I said, tonight, do me a favor.
0:42:40 I want you to find somebody outside of your organization who is a critical teammate that
0:42:42 you haven’t been treating as a teammate.
0:42:46 I want you to go up to them at dinner tonight and I want you to let them know what the passion
0:42:52 you have for this project and invite them in, not to your team, but invite them in to
0:42:56 a co-creation, invite them into their team with you.
0:43:01 Invite them into their team and say, this initiative could be something, but we’re not
0:43:04 going to get from here to there without you.
0:43:06 And invite them into a different team.
0:43:10 And when you do that, you give people that path.
0:43:12 It just starts breaking down silos.
0:43:13 People are lazy.
0:43:14 I mean, they’re busy.
0:43:15 I shouldn’t say lazy.
0:43:16 People are busy.
0:43:17 They’re preoccupied.
0:43:20 And the natural reaction is, we’re going to work in all ways of working.
0:43:22 I’m going to work in my silo.
0:43:25 I’m going to plug it in and it’ll plug into something, some other silo.
0:43:29 And when there’s a problem that silos aren’t working together, then I’m going to be resentful
0:43:31 and I’m going to try to get what I want.
0:43:34 But if I don’t get it when it was run, it’s going to turn into bad behavior.
0:43:35 That’s old ways of working.
0:43:38 And we got to just simple new practices.
0:43:43 We’ll break down old traditional things that are crushing our organizations today.
0:43:44 Now, I think AI is going to help.
0:43:51 I really do think that I’m very hopeful that AI is going to change our lives, including
0:43:56 take this book and engineer it into our work process as coaches.
0:44:01 I’m going to back up about five minutes and ask you a question here, Sol.
0:44:07 You started off this example about this company and they said that they wanted to double their
0:44:10 share price as the goal.
0:44:14 So do you ever hear a goal like that and you say, that’s the wrong kind of goal?
0:44:16 The goal is not doubling your share price.
0:44:20 The goal is, I don’t know, excellence or leadership or something.
0:44:25 Do you ever push back on that kind of, seems to me, insipid goal?
0:44:32 If you’re the CEO and you’ve got shareholders that you’re responsible to having a goal of
0:44:37 doubling shareholder value, I don’t think the shareholders that you have to be accountable
0:44:39 to are going to call it insipid.
0:44:44 But that said, and also I’m newly a venture partner at a VC called Lightspeed.
0:44:48 And I sit in these meetings now, these partner meetings that I’d never been, had exposure
0:44:52 to with such deep respect for what it takes to be a VC.
0:44:58 A lot of my friends are VCs, but they’re not, they’re just rich people spending money.
0:45:02 That’s different than a real VC, like the rigor of these organizations like Lightspeed
0:45:03 that I see.
0:45:07 But look, engineering value creation is important.
0:45:14 But that said, what I can say is the same organization has had a vision of being, like
0:45:18 they’ve said, we want to be the envidia of insurance.
0:45:19 Okay.
0:45:20 Now, what does that mean?
0:45:21 How do you engineer a product?
0:45:26 How do you engineer a level of customer experience and satisfaction and how do you re-engineer
0:45:28 the business?
0:45:32 And I literally spent an entire afternoon with these folks asking a simple question.
0:45:37 How does AI transform the customer experience and create extraordinary value?
0:45:42 And of course, following that path, you’ll get to shareholder value, but it really is
0:45:43 about the customer experience.
0:45:48 I would say that if any of these companies have a goal of re-engineering shareholder
0:45:52 value, but they’re looking at it only from finance, not looking at it from a perspective
0:45:55 of re-engineering the customer experience, then I think you’re right.
0:45:56 That’s insipid.
0:45:57 Okay.
0:45:58 So we’re both right.
0:46:00 I think we’re both in the same target.
0:46:01 Yeah.
0:46:02 Okay.
0:46:07 So I’m going to read you a quote from your book, and I just, when did you write this
0:46:08 book?
0:46:09 And like a year ago?
0:46:11 I shipped it a year ago, right?
0:46:14 But I was writing it for the last 20 years.
0:46:15 It’s funny.
0:46:18 When I wrote my first book, “Nevered Alone,” people said, “How long did it take you to
0:46:19 write that book?”
0:46:21 I said, “Well, 35 years.”
0:46:23 I tell people that too.
0:46:24 Yeah.
0:46:25 Go ahead.
0:46:26 But what was the quote?
0:46:32 So this quote is, “The most innovative teams relish and build greatness out of diverse
0:46:34 perspectives.”
0:46:40 So basically you’re supporting DEI, but DEI doesn’t seem to be so popular anymore.
0:46:44 I mean, what’s the deal here?
0:46:46 You can’t say that in Florida.
0:46:47 Yeah.
0:46:48 Now it is funny.
0:46:50 I was actually just in Florida the other day and had to ask myself, am I allowed to say
0:46:52 this on stage here?
0:46:55 So here’s what I did, and I love this.
0:47:00 Lencioni’s book inspired me 20 years ago to study the subject, five dysfunctions of
0:47:01 a team.
0:47:05 But today, 20 years later, there’s a lot of difference about teams.
0:47:12 And one of the things I wanted to ask myself was, where is the DEI journey in teams today?
0:47:13 What does it look like?
0:47:18 So I went out and I asked 26, I was at Davos a few years ago, and I started this research
0:47:19 there.
0:47:22 I asked 26 heads of DEI, a simple question.
0:47:28 If you had a team that you were responsible for coaching for the next six months, what
0:47:34 would you do with that team to make them a shining emblem of DEI for your organization,
0:47:37 for shareholder value, for the customer experience, for employee engagement?
0:47:38 What would you do?
0:47:43 None of them had an answer, because not right away, because that’s not the lens that they
0:47:44 look at the world.
0:47:48 DEI looked at the world in terms of enterprise equity.
0:47:49 They looked at policies.
0:47:54 They looked at so many different things, but I was asking you to look at what the value
0:47:57 creation opportunity was of DEI at the team level.
0:47:59 I found out a few things.
0:48:03 I’d already written most of the book when I was having this conversation, and I found
0:48:10 out that the diversity is born into chapter one when we really are asking ourselves, who
0:48:15 is the real team and what voices do we need to have heard?
0:48:19 What diverse set of voices do we need to have heard that will give us a more exponential,
0:48:22 a more breakthrough set of thinking?
0:48:23 Equity.
0:48:28 The equity that I got, the lesson that I heard from Enrique, the CEO of Hewlett Packard,
0:48:32 is listen, people say that you can’t get a diverse slate, bullshit.
0:48:36 You wait until you have a diverse slate that’s exceptional and inspires you.
0:48:39 That’s why their equity is what it is.
0:48:42 Inclusion, I found it peppered throughout the whole book.
0:48:46 If you make sure every voice is heard in a meeting, if you make sure that asynchronous
0:48:51 collaboration is the primary form of collaboration, if you’re reaching out to diverse, breaking
0:48:56 down silos, getting inputs, all of that crushes it on the inclusion.
0:49:01 What we found was most of the DE&I agenda is marbled into this book.
0:49:05 Then we added a chapter when I really interrogated to them, I was like, “What about this thing
0:49:06 called belonging?
0:49:07 How do you get people to feel like belonging?”
0:49:11 Well, that’s chapter four when it comes to the intimacy and connection of having each
0:49:12 other’s back.
0:49:14 How about otherness and sameness?
0:49:20 So I really got into it, and I marbled those in practices, and I do believe that anybody
0:49:26 who wants to embrace a diverse and equitable agenda can find the roadmap in here, but it’s
0:49:29 not about checking a box.
0:49:35 It’s about making the work better because it is listening to a diverse set of inputs
0:49:38 that will inspire us to have better outputs.
0:49:40 That’s how I want to end.
0:49:46 No, actually, I know you’re going to do a world-class one of these, so I’m going to
0:49:52 ask you to do this, not just for your own benefit, but so people can hear what a world-class
0:49:54 thing you’re going to do.
0:50:01 You’re on deck, and I want you to just summarize and pitch your book to my listeners.
0:50:02 This is it.
0:50:03 Go for it, Keith.
0:50:04 All right.
0:50:06 I want to see your evangelism in action.
0:50:07 All right.
0:50:08 Thank you, brother.
0:50:14 Look, I believe we’ve over-indexed on leadership, and we’ve under-indexed on team-ship.
0:50:21 The potential of asking a team to step up and meet you as a leader in the leadership.
0:50:25 I think it’s great that a leader gives feedback, but I want the team to give each other feedback.
0:50:27 I want the team to hold each other accountable.
0:50:29 I want the team to lift each other’s energy.
0:50:33 The principle of team-ship will allow you to achieve things you’ve never been able to
0:50:39 achieve before because the team will be giving you so much more, and it’s not just a roadmap
0:50:40 for a leader.
0:50:41 It’s a roadmap for the team itself.
0:50:42 Wow.
0:50:45 How’d I do?
0:50:48 How’d I do?
0:50:51 That is definitely a remarkable moment there.
0:50:52 It’s a key.
0:50:55 Thank you very much for giving up your lunch for me.
0:50:59 I appreciate this very much.
0:51:04 I am so honored and grateful to be back here with you and love following your journey and
0:51:05 all the work that you do.
0:51:06 Thank you very much.
0:51:08 You’re too kind.
0:51:13 You’ve just got through listening to Keith Farazzi, and his new book is called Never
0:51:17 Lead Alone, and I promise you, it’ll make you more remarkable.
0:51:20 This is the Remarkable People podcast.
0:51:21 I’m Guy Kawasaki.
0:51:27 My thanks to Madison Nizmer, the producer and co-author of my book, Tessa Nizmer, who
0:51:33 is our ACE researcher, Jeff C., and Shannon Hernandez, who’s our audio team.
0:51:37 That’s the Remarkable People team, and thank you, Keith.
0:51:42 Until the third time we bring you back, just let us know what we can do.
0:51:43 Thank you very much.
0:51:50 Mahalo and Aloha.
0:51:52 This is Remarkable People.
Join Guy Kawasaki for an enlightening conversation with Keith Ferrazzi, pioneering thought leader and bestselling author. In this episode of Remarkable People, they explore the groundbreaking concept of “teamship” and why traditional leadership models need to evolve. Ferrazzi shares powerful insights from his decades of research on high-performing teams and introduces practical methods for transforming group dynamics. Discover how to unlock your team’s full potential through candor, psychological safety, and purposeful collaboration.
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Guy Kawasaki is on a mission to make you remarkable. His Remarkable People podcast features interviews with remarkable people such as Jane Goodall, Marc Benioff, Woz, Kristi Yamaguchi, and Bob Cialdini. Every episode will make you more remarkable.
With his decades of experience in Silicon Valley as a Venture Capitalist and advisor to the top entrepreneurs in the world, Guy’s questions come from a place of curiosity and passion for technology, start-ups, entrepreneurship, and marketing. If you love society and culture, documentaries, and business podcasts, take a second to follow Remarkable People.
Listeners of the Remarkable People podcast will learn from some of the most successful people in the world with practical tips and inspiring stories that will help you be more remarkable.
Episodes of Remarkable People organized by topic: https://bit.ly/rptopology
Listen to Remarkable People here: **https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/guy-kawasakis-remarkable-people/id1483081827**
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