Matt Abrahams: Spontaneous Speaking for Entrepreneurs, How to Communicate Confidently On the Spot | E330

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0:00:59 People would rather be standing on the precipice
0:01:03 of a 30-story building covered in snakes and spiders
0:01:05 rather than giving a presentation.
0:01:08 Quite frankly, I think the other 15% are lying.
0:01:10 We can prepare to be spontaneous.
0:01:12 All communication planned or spontaneous
0:01:14 needs to be goal-driven.
0:01:17 How can we get over our nerves when we’re feeling
0:01:19 especially self-conscious?
0:01:22 When it comes to managing anxiety, you really have to–
0:01:26 The single best thing you can do in small talk is just be curious.
0:01:29 When we’re negotiating or trying to convince even
0:01:33 our partner of something, how should we communicate?
0:01:34 First and foremost, we have to–
0:01:53 Yeah, fam, so what do you think?
0:01:56 It’s a simple question, but one that a lot of us struggle with,
0:01:58 especially if you hate being put on the spot,
0:02:01 whether at work or at Thanksgiving dinner.
0:02:03 But in today’s business world, the ability
0:02:07 to speak spontaneously is more crucial than ever.
0:02:09 Whether you’re navigating a job interview, negotiating
0:02:13 a deal, pitching an idea, or simply engaging in small talk,
0:02:15 you need to be able to communicate effectively
0:02:16 and comfortably.
0:02:19 To help us master this skill, I’m thrilled to welcome
0:02:22 Matt Abrahams, a professor at Stanford’s Graduate School
0:02:23 of Business.
0:02:26 Matt is the author of the book, “Think Faster, Talk Smarter,”
0:02:28 the host of the podcast, “Think Fast, Talk Smart,”
0:02:32 and he’s dedicated his career to helping individuals master
0:02:34 the art of spontaneous communication.
0:02:36 So let’s get started and learn how to think faster
0:02:38 and talk smarter.
0:02:41 Matt, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
0:02:43 Hala, I am so excited to be here with you.
0:02:44 Thank you.
0:02:47 I am so excited, too, because I’m
0:02:50 so fascinated by communication and human behavior.
0:02:52 They’re two of my favorite topics.
0:02:55 And you are just such an incredible expert in this area.
0:02:57 So I can’t wait to jump right in.
0:02:59 We’ve all heard that old statistic
0:03:02 that most people fear public speaking more than death.
0:03:06 And that’s just the regular, planned public speaking.
0:03:08 But it also sounds like, based on your research,
0:03:12 that many of us also fear impromptu, spontaneous speaking
0:03:13 even more.
0:03:17 So just how scary is public speaking and spontaneous speaking
0:03:18 to the average person?
0:03:20 And why do you think that’s the case?
0:03:22 It is really terrifying.
0:03:25 People would rather be standing on the precipice
0:03:29 of a 30-story building covered in snakes and spiders
0:03:31 rather than giving a presentation.
0:03:34 Up to 85% of people report feeling nervous
0:03:37 in high-stakes communication situations.
0:03:40 Quite frankly, I think the other 15% are lying.
0:03:42 This is something that’s just innate to being human.
0:03:45 Those of us who study it have found it across all cultures.
0:03:48 It tends to start around the same time.
0:03:51 Young teens are when our anxiety around speaking
0:03:53 in front of others really takes off.
0:03:54 And you’re right.
0:03:56 It’s not just planned communication.
0:03:59 It’s also, in the moment, spontaneous speaking.
0:04:02 Which, if you think about it, is most of our communication.
0:04:04 So it’s part of being human.
0:04:08 We feel threatened by the opportunity
0:04:10 to be up in front of others.
0:04:14 Those of us who study it think it has an evolutionary origin to it.
0:04:16 When our species was evolving,
0:04:19 we would hang out in groups of about 150 people.
0:04:23 And your relative status in that group meant everything.
0:04:25 And when I say status, I don’t just mean
0:04:26 who’s driving a fancy car,
0:04:28 who has the most social media following.
0:04:32 I mean access to resources like food, shelter, reproduction.
0:04:36 So anything you did that put your status at risk
0:04:38 would cause anxiety.
0:04:40 And getting up in front of others was exactly that.
0:04:45 So it is ubiquitous, yet it is something we can learn to manage.
0:04:50 But now in modern days, why is spontaneous speaking so important?
0:04:53 Yeah, well, because things come at us so fast and furiously.
0:04:54 Think about it.
0:04:57 We are bombarded with information all the time.
0:04:59 People are asking us questions.
0:05:00 People are asking us for feedback.
0:05:01 We make mistakes.
0:05:02 We have to correct.
0:05:03 Things go wrong.
0:05:04 We have to apologize.
0:05:07 We’re in a situation where we have to make small talk.
0:05:10 The interactions that we’re having both in person
0:05:14 and virtually require us to speak spontaneously
0:05:16 and to shift very quickly as we do it.
0:05:22 And do you feel like the internet and things like AI
0:05:24 and all this technology that’s going on,
0:05:28 do you feel like that’s hurting our communication skills as younger people?
0:05:30 I don’t know if I would say hurting.
0:05:33 It’s definitely changing and challenging it.
0:05:35 There are more ways to communicate.
0:05:38 And some of those ways are actually really helpful to us.
0:05:40 We can be more efficient in our communication.
0:05:43 We can spend more time with it because of tools
0:05:46 that help us get messages out more quickly.
0:05:50 At the same time, we miss the opportunity to connect.
0:05:54 So I am an optimist when it comes to technology and communication,
0:05:56 but we do have to adjust and adapt.
0:05:58 And the big thing we have to remind ourselves
0:06:01 is in the workforce, we have multiple generations.
0:06:05 And some of the generations, more likely the younger generations,
0:06:08 are more comfortable and used to using technology.
0:06:10 And those of my generation or older aren’t.
0:06:12 So we’re in this transition phase,
0:06:15 and we all just have to remember that we’re all learning
0:06:17 and we learn at a different pace.
0:06:20 But I do think technology can help us communicate.
0:06:22 We just have to leverage it appropriately.
0:06:27 Do you feel like older generations like Boomers and maybe Gen X,
0:06:31 that they’re better at spontaneous communication?
0:06:34 Or do you feel like it’s the same across the board?
0:06:36 The need to communicate spontaneous, I think, is the same.
0:06:40 I actually think that all generations struggle,
0:06:42 but for different reasons.
0:06:44 Younger generations, in my observation,
0:06:46 tend to struggle with the connection piece.
0:06:49 A lot of spontaneous communication is about connection.
0:06:53 Older generations, my generation, and even older,
0:06:56 tend to struggle with the speed of communication.
0:06:59 Because a lot of spontaneous speaking happens immediately,
0:07:01 and it happens quickly.
0:07:03 So I think everybody struggles a little bit,
0:07:05 but the reasons they struggle differ
0:07:07 based on just their experience
0:07:09 and how they grew up communicating.
0:07:12 That all said, we can learn to do this better.
0:07:14 Yeah, I was just going to say,
0:07:16 this is something we can actually improve.
0:07:18 It’s not this just natural born skill,
0:07:20 and you have it or you don’t.
0:07:23 Can you share the story of how you got better
0:07:25 at spontaneous speaking?
0:07:26 It’s a confluence of several things,
0:07:30 but it turns out with my last name, Abraham’s AB.
0:07:33 I always went first through school,
0:07:37 literally from kindergarten through university.
0:07:39 I always knew where I sat.
0:07:42 I always sat front row, closest to the door.
0:07:44 So whenever the teachers, and I am a teacher,
0:07:47 and I know it’s just easier to do things alphabetically,
0:07:49 I would always be called on first.
0:07:53 So growing up, I just got used to having to speak spontaneously.
0:07:56 My friends, whose last names were later in the alphabet,
0:07:57 would always thank me.
0:07:59 They said, thank you, because you would start,
0:08:02 and it would give me time to think and plan and prepare.
0:08:06 So part of my ability to speak better spontaneously,
0:08:09 and I can certainly improve, as can all of us,
0:08:10 came from experience.
0:08:13 Practice and experience is a large part
0:08:15 of what helps us get better at all communication.
0:08:17 It’s like an athlete.
0:08:20 Athletes train to be spontaneous.
0:08:22 They do a lot of drills, so in the game,
0:08:24 they can be agile and respond to what happens.
0:08:26 And we can all do the same thing.
0:08:30 I either, through good fortune or dumb luck with my last name,
0:08:32 got a lot of reps early on in life.
0:08:35 Yeah, to be honest, this is a skill
0:08:38 that I really, really want to be better at,
0:08:40 because I feel like, for me specifically,
0:08:42 it is so important for my job.
0:08:44 And I always prep for my interviews.
0:08:45 I go through the books.
0:08:48 But your book, “Think Faster, Talk Smarter,”
0:08:51 I’m literally going to go back and take notes
0:08:53 and try to teach other people and do whatever I can
0:08:56 to just retain the information as much as I can.
0:08:58 So I’m really excited to go back
0:09:01 and literally study it so, so well.
0:09:03 And I don’t feel that way about a lot of books.
0:09:05 So “Think Faster, Talk Smarter,” guys,
0:09:06 I highly recommend it.
0:09:10 And I think, for my skills,
0:09:12 I feel like that’s literally the number one area
0:09:13 I can improve.
0:09:16 And I’m really good at speaking about marketing
0:09:19 and podcasting and business and sales
0:09:21 and all the things that I’m an expert on.
0:09:24 But I’m always having to talk to AI experts
0:09:26 and neuroscientists and biohackers
0:09:29 and people that I know, and they’re geniuses.
0:09:32 And then I have to be smart in front of them.
0:09:38 So just thoughts around that in terms of being comfortable
0:09:39 about what you’re an expert on
0:09:40 and then talking in situations
0:09:43 where you’re by far not the expert.
0:09:46 Absolutely. So first, thank you for the compliment.
0:09:49 The book was written to really be applicable.
0:09:51 There are try this parts of the book.
0:09:53 I think the only way to learn any communication,
0:09:56 but especially spontaneous communication,
0:09:57 is by doing it.
0:10:00 And so I’ve tried to make the book accessible in that way
0:10:02 and thank you for saying that it was successful,
0:10:03 at least for you.
0:10:06 So I’m going to give advice that I give to people
0:10:08 when I talk about small talk
0:10:09 because what you’re asking about
0:10:11 is really touching on the same issue.
0:10:15 The single best thing you can do in small talk,
0:10:17 when you’re meeting people you don’t know
0:10:20 or you don’t feel that you are at the same level they are,
0:10:21 is just be curious.
0:10:25 We have this pressure we put on ourselves to be interesting.
0:10:27 And I think what’s most important,
0:10:29 and I learned this from a guest on my podcast,
0:10:31 Think Fast Talk Smart, her name is Rachel Greenwald.
0:10:33 She taught me this notion of the goal
0:10:35 is to be interested, not interesting.
0:10:37 So lead with curiosity.
0:10:40 You don’t have to know everything, but be curious.
0:10:44 And when you’re curious, others will open up and share.
0:10:45 And if they’re good at what they do,
0:10:48 they’ll help make their content accessible to you.
0:10:50 So we put a lot of pressure on ourselves
0:10:52 to feel like I need to be the expert.
0:10:54 I need to ask the best question.
0:10:56 I need to have the best feedback.
0:10:59 That’s a tremendous amount of pressure to put on ourselves.
0:11:01 Instead, we say, hey, I just want to connect.
0:11:04 And I’m curious about what the other person says.
0:11:05 That reduces that pressure.
0:11:08 It makes it easier for the other person to share.
0:11:13 So my mother-in-law had a black belt in small talk.
0:11:14 She was amazing.
0:11:17 And her secret was three words, tell me more.
0:11:22 So just expressing curiosity, I think Hala will help you now.
0:11:23 You need to do your research.
0:11:26 You need to understand the domain that the person’s in.
0:11:29 But just getting the person talking, demonstrating interest,
0:11:33 being curious, allowing them space to respond.
0:11:36 That’s the best way, I think, to get conversation going
0:11:39 and to elevate your knowledge level
0:11:41 and appropriateness of what you’re saying.
0:11:45 Related to this and something that I loved learning about in your book
0:11:51 was your advice to be mediocre, to not be afraid to be so dull.
0:11:53 And this is my biggest fear.
0:11:56 I won’t say anything if I feel like it’s not useful.
0:11:57 I’ll just move on to the next thing.
0:12:02 So I’d love to just hear your perspective on how can we be more mediocre.
0:12:06 To prepare for this work I did that ultimately ended up in the book,
0:12:09 I did a lot of research across many academic domain,
0:12:14 psychology, anthropology, sociology, communication, neuroscience,
0:12:16 and improvisation.
0:12:21 And improv has just amazing insights into communication,
0:12:23 especially spontaneous communication.
0:12:27 And in improv, they have this notion of dare to be dull.
0:12:32 In other words, the goal in improv is not to be an amazing star
0:12:33 with everything you say.
0:12:37 Instead, the job is to just get things going,
0:12:39 keep things moving along.
0:12:43 And sometimes the best way to do that is just to do it, be dull.
0:12:48 So I’ve transformed that into what I call maximize your mediocrity.
0:12:52 And I teach at Stanford, I teach Stanford Business School students,
0:12:56 and I start my first class every quarter by saying,
0:12:59 the goal of this class is to maximize your mediocrity.
0:13:02 And Hala, you should see these students’ jaws drop.
0:13:04 They have never been told to be mediocre.
0:13:08 But the point is this, if you think of your brain like a computer,
0:13:11 it’s not a perfect analogy, but it works for this.
0:13:15 If you have a laptop or a phone that has lots of apps or windows open,
0:13:19 each one of those apps and windows is performing less well
0:13:20 because the other ones are open.
0:13:24 You have limited bandwidth, and you’re spreading it thin.
0:13:28 When I am putting pressure on myself to say the right thing
0:13:32 in the right way at the right time to be perfect,
0:13:35 I am actually putting so much pressure on myself.
0:13:38 I’m using all this bandwidth to judge and evaluate
0:13:41 and assess my perfection or lack thereof
0:13:43 that I actually have very little bandwidth
0:13:44 to actually do the communication.
0:13:49 So when you give yourself permission to just get it done,
0:13:52 I like to say it’s about connection, not perfection.
0:13:56 If I just connect with the person, if I just convey my information,
0:14:01 I then free up all this bandwidth that allows me to do it really well.
0:14:04 So I end my very first class by saying,
0:14:05 I told you to maximize mediocrity,
0:14:09 and the reason is so you can achieve communication greatness.
0:14:14 When we remove that pressure from ourselves to be right, to be perfect,
0:14:19 we actually free up bandwidth to help us get the point across and do it well.
0:14:20 And I’ll just say one more thing.
0:14:25 This is why memorizing is the enemy of communication success.
0:14:27 And I know for many people, they’re like, “Wait, wait, wait, wait.
0:14:28 If I don’t memorize, I’m lost.”
0:14:32 No, memorizing makes it harder to actually communicate
0:14:35 because part of your brain is constantly assessing,
0:14:36 “Am I saying what I had memorized?”
0:14:40 Which only leaves the other part of your brain to actually communicate.
0:14:42 So it is better to have a roadmap,
0:14:45 a structure, just bullet points that you are familiar with
0:14:47 than memorizing word for word.
0:14:51 So being mediocre is all about changing cognitive bandwidth to be in your favor.
0:14:55 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:19:41 So in your book, “Think Faster, Talk Smarter,”
0:19:43 you have a six-step method.
0:19:46 Could you go over that at a high level for us?
0:19:47 Absolutely. Let me introduce the method.
0:19:50 It really divides into M&M, my favorite candies.
0:19:53 It’s about mindset and messaging.
0:19:55 The first four steps are all about mindset.
0:19:57 When it comes to communication in general,
0:20:00 but specifically spontaneous speaking,
0:20:01 anxiety looms large.
0:20:03 We started by talking about that.
0:20:04 Most people are nervous.
0:20:07 Most people are really nervous in spontaneous situations.
0:20:11 So step number one is learning to manage that anxiety.
0:20:13 Once we’ve managed that anxiety,
0:20:14 the next thing we have to do
0:20:17 is we need to do exactly what we talked about.
0:20:20 Not get in that mindset of, “I have to be perfect.”
0:20:22 So we have to focus our efforts
0:20:25 on just getting the idea across.
0:20:27 It’s about connection, not perfection.
0:20:30 Third, we have to see these situations
0:20:32 as opportunities, not threats.
0:20:35 Many of us see speaking in front of others as a threat,
0:20:37 and we have to reframe that as an opportunity
0:20:40 that can really help us to be successful.
0:20:44 And then the final step of mindset has to do with listening.
0:20:46 And many people are like, “What? Listening is important?”
0:20:48 You’re talking about speaking?
0:20:49 No. You have to listen.
0:20:52 You have to be able to focus on what is needed in the moment.
0:20:53 It is critical.
0:20:55 So we start with anxiety.
0:20:58 We move to how we focus on connection, not perfection.
0:21:00 It’s about opportunities, not threats.
0:21:02 And then it’s about listening.
0:21:04 Then we transition to messaging.
0:21:07 The final two steps are about messaging.
0:21:10 When we communicate, we must leverage structure.
0:21:12 Many of us just take the audience
0:21:14 on our journey of our discovery
0:21:16 of what we want to say as we’re saying it.
0:21:19 In other words, we ramble, we list, we itemize.
0:21:23 It’s very hard for others to remember lists of information.
0:21:27 And then the final step is we have to be concise and clear.
0:21:30 Many of us say much more than we need to say.
0:21:32 My mother has this wonderful saying,
0:21:35 “Tell the time, don’t build the clock.”
0:21:37 Many of us, when we speak, say more than we need to.
0:21:41 So the last two steps are about structure and being concise.
0:21:43 So taken together, that methodology
0:21:46 can help you feel more comfortable and confident
0:21:49 in all communication, but especially spontaneous speaking.
0:21:52 And you don’t have to be an expert in each of those steps.
0:21:56 Doing any work in any one of those areas will help you.
0:21:59 So I want to drill down, and since you broke it apart
0:22:03 in two parts, let’s split it mindset and messaging.
0:22:05 And I’d love to use a personal example.
0:22:08 Yesterday, I interviewed Tom Billy.
0:22:09 Do you know who that is?
0:22:11 I don’t. Who is Tom?
0:22:13 He’s this huge podcaster.
0:22:16 So he’s got this podcast called Impact Theory.
0:22:17 He’s huge on YouTube.
0:22:21 He’s probably top 10 podcasters of all time.
0:22:22 He’s huge.
0:22:26 And because he was competition,
0:22:29 my nerves were at a different level.
0:22:30 I’ve interviewed Matthew McConaughey.
0:22:33 I’ve interviewed Damon John, Gary Vee.
0:22:35 All these celebrities, and I wasn’t nervous at all.
0:22:38 But because he was a podcaster,
0:22:40 I just kept feeling like he’s judging me.
0:22:42 And I kept feeling like, oh, he probably thinks
0:22:44 he’s better than me.
0:22:49 And even my lips were quivering, and that never happens.
0:22:53 And I felt like I just wasn’t as present as I’m used to.
0:22:56 And I really wanted to impress him, right?
0:22:58 And so I felt like I did a good job.
0:22:59 I had prepared.
0:23:02 I feel like he probably didn’t notice,
0:23:05 but I felt I could have done such a better job.
0:23:10 For example, I feel literally 100 times more present now
0:23:12 than I did yesterday in that interview.
0:23:14 And it’s because I just feel comfortable with you.
0:23:15 I don’t feel like you’re judging me.
0:23:17 And so I’m able to be myself.
0:23:19 And even this morning I woke up.
0:23:21 The first thing in my mind was, you blew it, you know?
0:23:24 That’s what I woke up for, that I was like judging myself.
0:23:26 So I know this speaks to a lot of the things
0:23:31 that you were just outlining when it comes to mindset.
0:23:33 So how can we get over our nerves
0:23:35 when we’re feeling especially self-conscious?
0:23:39 What could I have done differently in terms of internal dialogue
0:23:43 or physically like breathing or whatever I should have done?
0:23:47 One, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that.
0:23:49 A lot of people keep that inside.
0:23:52 And somebody as successful as you and who comes off
0:23:55 as confident as you do sharing that you get nervous,
0:23:57 I think is great for people to hear.
0:23:58 We all get nervous.
0:24:02 It is the rare person who doesn’t in high-stakes situations.
0:24:05 And also thank you for feeling comfortable with me.
0:24:06 That makes me feel really good.
0:24:09 So when it comes to managing anxiety,
0:24:11 you really have to take a two-pronged approach.
0:24:14 You have to manage both symptoms and sources.
0:24:16 Symptoms are what you physiologically feel.
0:24:18 You shared some of those.
0:24:21 And sources are the things that initiate and exacerbate the anxiety.
0:24:26 So allow me to share a little bit on both sides of that.
0:24:28 So when you begin to feel nervous,
0:24:30 your body is responding to threat.
0:24:31 It’s the fight-or-flight response.
0:24:34 Everything that goes on for you is what would happen
0:24:36 if you were being chased by somebody.
0:24:40 So deep belly breathing is perhaps the best thing you could do.
0:24:41 And when I say deep belly breathing,
0:24:43 I mean, filling your lower abdomen,
0:24:46 if you’ve ever done yoga or meditation or Tai Chi or Chi Gong,
0:24:48 it’s this deep belly breathing.
0:24:51 And the important part is it’s the exhalation.
0:24:54 So I like to joke instead of saying the rule of thumb,
0:24:57 the rule of lung is you want your exhale
0:24:59 to be twice as long as your inhale.
0:25:01 And if you take two or three deep breaths,
0:25:03 like a three-count in and a six-count out,
0:25:06 you slow down your autonomic nervous system.
0:25:07 You’ll be less jittery.
0:25:09 You’ll speak more slowly.
0:25:11 You’ll be more present.
0:25:13 So that’s a great thing to do to start.
0:25:15 If you’re somebody who shakes,
0:25:17 you said there was a little quivering going on,
0:25:17 that’s adrenaline.
0:25:22 Adrenaline sole purpose is to move you from threat to safety.
0:25:25 So we want to move, but we want to move with purpose.
0:25:26 So big broad gestures,
0:25:28 if you’re standing in front of an audience,
0:25:29 you want to walk forward.
0:25:33 Movement in a positive way that supports what you’re saying
0:25:37 gives that energy a place to go and you will shake less.
0:25:40 My personal symptom that happens to me,
0:25:42 I blush and I perspire.
0:25:43 I turn red and I sweat.
0:25:46 That’s because your core body temperature is going up.
0:25:48 Your heart’s beating faster, your body’s tensing.
0:25:50 It’s like you’re exercising.
0:25:53 When most of us exercise, we sweat and we perspire.
0:25:55 So we have to cool ourselves down.
0:25:57 Before I ever speak,
0:25:59 before I’m a guest on a show like yours,
0:26:03 I will always hold something cold in the palms of my hand.
0:26:05 The palms of your hand control the temperature of your body,
0:26:07 just like your forehead or the back of your neck.
0:26:09 We’ve done this on a cold morning.
0:26:12 If you’ve ever held warm tea or coffee in a mug
0:26:14 and felt that it warms you up,
0:26:16 we’re doing the opposite, cooling ourselves down.
0:26:17 So there are things you can do,
0:26:19 and there are many other things you can do,
0:26:20 to reduce the symptoms.
0:26:23 But we also have to think about sources.
0:26:27 Sources are the things that initiate and exacerbate anxiety.
0:26:31 In your case, it sounds like you didn’t want to look foolish.
0:26:33 You wanted to look your best being.
0:26:35 You wanted to show up as best as you could.
0:26:37 That’s a lot of pressure you’re putting on yourself.
0:26:41 So by removing that goal,
0:26:43 what’s making you nervous in that situation
0:26:46 is the goal to come off in the way you wanted to come off.
0:26:48 A goal is a future state.
0:26:50 So what’s making you nervous
0:26:52 is a potential negative future outcome.
0:26:55 So if we can make ourselves more present oriented,
0:26:57 by definition, I’m not worried about the future.
0:27:00 So anything you can do to get more present,
0:27:02 some ways to get present are to do something physical,
0:27:05 walk around the building, do some light exercise.
0:27:07 You could listen to a song or a playlist,
0:27:10 like athletes do, to get present oriented.
0:27:14 Start at 100 and count backwards by 17s.
0:27:16 That gets you present oriented.
0:27:17 My favorite way to get present oriented
0:27:19 is to say tongue twisters.
0:27:21 You can’t say a tongue twister right
0:27:23 and not be in the present moment,
0:27:25 plus it warms up your voice.
0:27:27 So by managing symptoms and sources,
0:27:29 you can be more present oriented.
0:27:32 You can be more focused on what’s happening in the moment
0:27:33 and less nervous.
0:27:36 So that was a very long-winded answer, I’m sorry.
0:27:38 But the question is very real,
0:27:40 and it’s something that most of us can benefit
0:27:42 by managing our anxiety.
0:27:43 Yeah, 100%.
0:27:47 And so I started to get better halfway through the interview.
0:27:49 And I think one of the things that I was doing
0:27:51 is in my head, I was repeating,
0:27:53 you are the podcast princess, Hala.
0:27:56 He’s here because you have a top 100 podcast.
0:27:58 You are a great podcaster.
0:28:00 And I was repeating that stuff.
0:28:01 You’re the podcast princess, Hala.
0:28:03 You’re the podcast princess, Hala.
0:28:04 I love that.
0:28:05 I have a mantra I use.
0:28:08 And my mantra is you have value to bring.
0:28:11 So I remind myself, because I can get negative,
0:28:12 I can get my thought,
0:28:15 I’m not prepared, this person I’m talking to is so amazing.
0:28:17 I just say I have value to bring.
0:28:20 There’s something that this person has chosen to speak with me,
0:28:23 be it on a podcast, be it a student asking me a question,
0:28:26 be it somebody I just randomly meet.
0:28:27 I have value to bring.
0:28:30 And that alone cancels out that negative talk.
0:28:31 So that’s great.
0:28:33 You found a tool for you, which is,
0:28:35 it’s called positive affirmation.
0:28:36 And that seems to work for you.
0:28:37 That’s great.
0:28:38 Yeah.
0:28:42 And how about the fact that I felt so embarrassed afterwards?
0:28:45 What’s the importance of being kind to yourself
0:28:47 when it comes to these things?
0:28:50 Grace is really important in this.
0:28:52 I think what helps many people is to realize
0:28:54 that they’re not alone in this,
0:28:56 that lots of people suffer from this.
0:28:57 A real quick story.
0:28:59 The very first book I wrote was called
0:29:00 Speaking Up Without Freaking Out.
0:29:02 It’s all about how to manage anxiety.
0:29:04 I was in San Francisco airport.
0:29:07 They called my name over the loudspeaker
0:29:09 because the chair I was supposed to sit in on the airplane
0:29:11 was broken and they wanted to let me know that.
0:29:13 I come back and the guy standing next to me said,
0:29:15 you wrote that book on speaking anxiety.
0:29:16 I said, yes, have you read it?
0:29:17 He said, no, but it helped me.
0:29:19 I was like, you didn’t read the book,
0:29:20 but it helped you.
0:29:21 What do you mean?
0:29:24 And he said, just knowing that a book like that existed,
0:29:26 helped him normalize his fear.
0:29:28 He said, I thought I was the only one
0:29:29 because it might work, everybody’s so good,
0:29:32 but I realized you didn’t just write the book for me.
0:29:36 So my point here is you have to give yourself a little grace.
0:29:40 It is normal and natural in the presence of somebody you admire,
0:29:43 in the presence of somebody who is very qualified and accomplished,
0:29:46 to want to do well and to be nervous.
0:29:48 That makes complete sense.
0:29:51 So allow yourself that permission to be nervous
0:29:54 and then remind yourself that you have value to bring,
0:29:56 that you can do some things in that moment.
0:30:01 And as you said, your conversation yesterday turned out great.
0:30:03 He didn’t even know you were nervous.
0:30:05 So we have to remind ourselves of that.
0:30:08 The biggest thing that can help here is reflection,
0:30:10 not rumination, but reflection.
0:30:13 Reflect now, Hala, on how and what you did
0:30:14 to get yourself through that.
0:30:16 So the next time you interview somebody
0:30:18 where you might feel that way, you remind yourself.
0:30:21 It is through that reflection that we can change.
0:30:23 If we don’t take the time to reflect,
0:30:24 if we don’t give ourselves grace,
0:30:28 we’re going to fall victim to that same cycle over and over again.
0:30:31 So congrats on doing it and congrats on feeling a little embarrassed.
0:30:33 That means that this was important for you.
0:30:34 Totally.
0:30:37 And I feel like now that I’ve totally reflected on this,
0:30:40 like this conversation couldn’t have came at a better time,
0:30:42 I feel like the next time I interview somebody
0:30:46 who’s a huge podcaster and I feel like is going to be judging me,
0:30:48 I can kind of give myself some grace
0:30:50 and do some of those activities that you mentioned
0:30:51 to just get myself ready.
0:30:53 Like, okay, Hala, you are going to feel nervous.
0:30:56 This is how you’re going to get over it.
0:31:00 So one of the things that I do when it comes to spontaneous speaking
0:31:06 that I don’t know is right or wrong is I tend to be comfortable sharing my own stories.
0:31:11 And I was doing that a lot, especially when I first started podcasting
0:31:14 to the point where I got some bad reviews,
0:31:17 where some people were like, Hala, stop talking about yourself.
0:31:21 And then I got more careful about I’m only going to share stories
0:31:22 that I don’t share very often.
0:31:24 And I’m going to share new stories
0:31:26 and not tell a lot of the same stories
0:31:29 because my listeners listen to more than one episode, right?
0:31:33 So what are your feelings about talking about yourself
0:31:35 when it comes to spontaneous speaking?
0:31:37 This is a great question
0:31:40 because you have to find a very delicate balance.
0:31:44 Those who study communication and conversation
0:31:49 distinguish between supporting and switching tactics.
0:31:53 A supporting tactic is where you reinforce
0:31:55 what the other person is saying.
0:31:58 And a switching tactic is where you switch to something that you want to say.
0:32:00 And I’ll link this to your question in just a moment.
0:32:03 So if we’re having a conversation, Hala, and you say,
0:32:05 hey, I just got back from Hawaii.
0:32:07 And I say, oh, which island did you go to?
0:32:10 That’s a supporting tactic that invites you to say more.
0:32:14 If I say, oh, I just got back from Costa Rica, that’s a switching tactic.
0:32:18 You want to balance these out.
0:32:23 And the research suggests you want to be slightly more supporting than switching
0:32:25 because that puts the other person
0:32:27 in the position of you demonstrating interest
0:32:29 and you wanting to hear what they have to say.
0:32:34 The same ideas apply to disclosure of our own stories.
0:32:37 We want to share some, but not too much.
0:32:39 We should be communicating in a way
0:32:41 that gets the other person to talk more,
0:32:44 but we still have to share some of our stories.
0:32:45 So the rule of thumb that they have
0:32:48 in this switching versus supporting approach
0:32:53 is you want two-thirds supporting one-third switching.
0:32:56 And I think the same idea when it comes to telling stories
0:32:59 about ourselves or that are very personal to us
0:33:02 versus soliciting stories and input from other people.
0:33:04 So I think you shouldn’t tell some
0:33:06 because if not, it just sounds like you’re interrogating people.
0:33:08 If you don’t share anything about yourself.
0:33:11 But if you say too much about yourself, then it becomes almost rude.
0:33:16 So I like this one-third you talking two-thirds them talking approach.
0:33:17 Yeah, I feel like that’s good
0:33:20 because people love to talk about themselves.
0:33:22 So if you want somebody to like you,
0:33:24 you actually want them to talk about themselves
0:33:27 because they’ll feel like it was like a really happy positive experience
0:33:30 because they got a chance to speak about themselves.
0:33:32 Absolutely, absolutely.
0:33:34 And that’s why going into those situations,
0:33:38 thinking about questions you might want to ask is always a good thing.
0:33:42 Even if it’s spontaneous, even if I’m going into a party
0:33:44 or to some kind of conference setting
0:33:46 where there’s going to be people milling around,
0:33:47 right before I go in the room,
0:33:50 I can come up with two or three questions that I’m interested in.
0:33:53 And that’s how I start because you’re right.
0:33:54 People like to talk.
0:33:56 People like to share information about themselves.
0:33:58 Having those questions at the ready can really help you.
0:34:00 And when people are talking,
0:34:03 is there certain things we should be listening for
0:34:06 and things that can help us keep the conversation going?
0:34:08 Absolutely.
0:34:10 So first and foremost, we need to listen better.
0:34:11 We’re just not good listening.
0:34:12 We listen for the top line
0:34:15 and then we begin judging, evaluating, rehearsing.
0:34:17 You need to focus your listening.
0:34:19 You need to listen for the bottom line.
0:34:22 What I teach my students and when I try to do myself
0:34:23 and when I host my podcast,
0:34:25 when I just talk to people on the street,
0:34:27 I try to listen to paraphrase.
0:34:30 So as somebody’s talking, I’m saying,
0:34:31 what’s the core essence?
0:34:32 What’s the bottom line?
0:34:34 If I had to paraphrase or summarize what they said,
0:34:36 what would I say?
0:34:38 And when you listen that way, you listen more deeply.
0:34:42 So in conversation, I’m listening for the bottom line.
0:34:44 And that’s where I start my response.
0:34:47 So I might even comment on what that bottom line is.
0:34:51 I might say, oh, you’re really curious about this.
0:34:54 So I name it and then I add to it.
0:34:55 So we have to listen better.
0:34:57 We have to listen for the bottom line.
0:34:58 So as you’re listening to somebody,
0:35:01 think about if I had to paraphrase what they’re saying,
0:35:03 what would I say?
0:35:06 So use that as the starting point
0:35:07 for what you want to contribute next.
0:35:10 This reminds me of something that Chris Voss does.
0:35:11 Do you know who that is?
0:35:12 Split the difference?
0:35:14 I can’t remember what the word is.
0:35:17 Yeah, I just interviewed Chris for my podcast.
0:35:19 Great guy, really interesting insight.
0:35:20 Yeah, I’ve interviewed him like five or six times.
0:35:22 So I should definitely remember
0:35:24 what I’m talking about right now.
0:35:26 But basically, I don’t remember what it’s called,
0:35:30 but you paraphrase what somebody’s saying as a question.
0:35:33 So then they’ll just say more information.
0:35:34 He likes to talk about mirroring.
0:35:37 That’s what it is, yeah, that’s what it is, mirroring.
0:35:39 And then Charles Duhigg calls this looping.
0:35:42 It’s this notion of you start with what the person says,
0:35:44 you loop back to it and then you move forward.
0:35:47 And they’re both talking about exactly the same thing.
0:35:49 It’s you recognize what the person has said,
0:35:52 which validates them, which builds connection and trust.
0:35:55 But it also gives you a starting point for what comes next.
0:35:57 Yeah, totally.
0:36:00 Okay, Matt, so I know this is spontaneous speaking,
0:36:03 but is there any way that we can actually prepare?
0:36:07 Because when it comes to wanting to prepare for something,
0:36:08 if you know the general topic,
0:36:12 I’m assuming that you can at least prepare a little bit,
0:36:15 even if you’re trying to talk on the cuff, right?
0:36:18 Absolutely, Holly, you are right.
0:36:20 We can prepare to be spontaneous.
0:36:23 And that sounds counterintuitive, but it really is true.
0:36:27 One of the key ways to get yourself prepared
0:36:30 is to become familiar with structure.
0:36:35 Most of us, when we are nervous and we’re put on the spot,
0:36:36 we just list and itemize things.
0:36:39 We just say whatever comes into our mind.
0:36:41 And that makes it really hard for the audience,
0:36:44 the person or people we’re talking to, to digest it.
0:36:47 A structure is a logical connection of ideas,
0:36:49 a beginning, a middle, and an end.
0:36:50 Let me give you an example.
0:36:52 If you’ve ever watched an advertisement,
0:36:56 you have likely seen the structure problem solution benefit.
0:37:01 Advertisements start with some issue challenge that exists.
0:37:03 They then say how their product or service
0:37:06 fixes that issue or challenge, and then how you benefit.
0:37:08 So if you’re selling cars, selling medicine,
0:37:10 selling alcohol, it does not matter.
0:37:11 They all follow that structure.
0:37:13 It’s a logical connection of ideas.
0:37:16 If you are familiar with structure,
0:37:22 you have a recipe that you can follow for answering questions
0:37:24 for making small talk, for giving feedback,
0:37:27 for apologizing, whatever the situation is.
0:37:28 So if it’s okay with you,
0:37:29 can I share my favorite structure
0:37:31 that I think works in a lot of situations?
0:37:32 Would that be all right?
0:37:32 Yes, of course.
0:37:33 Excellent.
0:37:35 So it’s three simple questions.
0:37:38 What, so what, now what?
0:37:41 The what is the information you’re getting across?
0:37:43 It could be your idea, your product, your update,
0:37:44 your feedback.
0:37:47 The so what is why is it important or relevant
0:37:48 to the person you’re talking to?
0:37:50 And then the now what is what comes next?
0:37:52 Maybe it’s, do you have questions for me?
0:37:54 Let’s go into that other room.
0:37:55 Let me show you something.
0:37:56 It’s the next step.
0:37:58 So let me give you just real quickly
0:38:00 a couple examples of how this might work.
0:38:03 Imagine you’re in a meeting and your boss says,
0:38:05 hey, give me an update on that project you’re working on.
0:38:07 You hadn’t prepared for an update.
0:38:08 So you follow this structure.
0:38:09 You answer the three questions.
0:38:10 The what is your update?
0:38:12 Here’s what I’ve done.
0:38:14 The so what is, here’s why it’s important.
0:38:16 It matches our goals or expectations.
0:38:17 And then the now what is,
0:38:19 here are the three things that I need to have happen
0:38:21 before I can progress.
0:38:24 So simply by answering what, so what, now what,
0:38:27 you’ve given a structured, packaged,
0:38:29 concise response to the update.
0:38:31 Similarly, let’s imagine you’re walking out
0:38:33 of a different meeting and somebody turns to you
0:38:36 and says, how do you think that meeting went?
0:38:38 Again, you’re not prepared to get feedback.
0:38:40 You didn’t know you were going to have to get feedback.
0:38:42 You simply answer these three questions.
0:38:44 I might say, I thought the meeting went great,
0:38:46 except when you talked about the implementation plan.
0:38:50 You spoke quickly without a lot of detail.
0:38:51 That’s the what.
0:38:53 When you speak quickly without a lot of detail,
0:38:55 people might think you’re nervous or unprepared.
0:38:56 That’s the so what.
0:38:59 Next time, slow down and add these two additional bits
0:39:00 of information.
0:39:01 That’s the now what.
0:39:05 So in two very different situations, both spontaneous,
0:39:08 by just answering those questions, what, so what, now what,
0:39:11 that structure helps me get through it.
0:39:12 And it takes pressure off me
0:39:14 because I don’t have to think about how to say it.
0:39:15 I know how I’m going to say it.
0:39:17 I’m just going to answer those questions.
0:39:19 I just have to think about what those answers are.
0:39:24 So structure is key and you can prepare and practice structure.
0:39:27 I challenge all of your listeners, when they are done
0:39:31 listening to this episode or any of your other awesome episodes,
0:39:34 at the end, to simply say, what was the key takeaway for me?
0:39:36 Why was it important and how can I use it?
0:39:39 And by drilling that, just for 10, 15 seconds,
0:39:41 you get more used to using this structure
0:39:43 so it becomes natural to you.
0:39:46 So structure is a really key ingredient
0:39:49 to helping with all these situations we’ve been talking about.
0:39:49 Yeah.
0:39:52 And when it comes to structure, would you consider storytelling
0:39:54 and stories to have structure too?
0:39:58 Structure is just another fancy word for story.
0:39:59 All stories have a structure, right?
0:40:01 Beginning, middle, and an end.
0:40:02 When somebody says, tell more stories,
0:40:05 or this is about storytelling or narrative,
0:40:08 what they’re really saying in what I am hearing them say is,
0:40:09 use a structure.
0:40:11 Use a structure that engages people.
0:40:15 So yes, I see those as synonymous and very important.
0:40:18 And what kind of other structures do you lay out in your book
0:40:20 or anything else that you want to share about structures?
0:40:21 Oh, thank you.
0:40:24 The first part of the book is about the six-step methodology.
0:40:26 The second part of the book is about six specific
0:40:29 spontaneous speaking situations.
0:40:33 And for each one of them, it has a particular structure
0:40:35 that I like teaching.
0:40:37 So let me give you an example of one.
0:40:40 Many of the people listening to your show are entrepreneurs
0:40:44 or people who have ideas that they want to motivate others by.
0:40:47 I have a structure that I really like for pitching.
0:40:50 So this is short persuasion, like an elevator pitch.
0:40:53 This structure is different from what’s-so-what-now-what.
0:40:55 This structure is just sentence starters.
0:40:58 You finish these sentence starters.
0:41:02 So it’s what if you could sew that, for example,
0:41:03 and that’s not all.
0:41:04 If you finish those four sentence starters,
0:41:06 you have a good pitch.
0:41:08 So Hala, I’m going to ask you to put me on the spot
0:41:08 if you’re willing to do this.
0:41:10 OK, sure.
0:41:13 Pick a particular product or service that I would know,
0:41:14 something I know.
0:41:15 Just give it to me.
0:41:16 And without any thought,
0:41:18 I’m going to pitch it just using this structure.
0:41:20 So if I do my job right,
0:41:22 I’m going to demonstrate spontaneous speaking.
0:41:24 So I don’t know what you’re about to say.
0:41:26 You didn’t know I was going to ask you to do this.
0:41:27 So we’re both being spontaneous.
0:41:28 Give me something to pitch,
0:41:30 a product or service that I would know about.
0:41:32 A Mac laptop.
0:41:36 You did that because I had problems with my Mac laptop.
0:41:42 What if you could easily access all of your information
0:41:45 in a sleek looking device
0:41:48 so that you could be prepared
0:41:51 and have the information you need at your fingertips?
0:41:56 For example, imagine you are flying from Los Angeles to New York
0:41:58 and you have to create a presentation
0:42:00 that you have to deliver when you land.
0:42:04 Wouldn’t it be great to have a small, compact,
0:42:06 good looking laptop that you could work on?
0:42:07 And that’s not all.
0:42:11 You get access to a whole community of applications
0:42:14 and users that can be supportive of your efforts.
0:42:19 So by simply answering those specific problems,
0:42:22 what if you could so that, for example, and that’s not all,
0:42:24 you can craft a pitch.
0:42:26 What if you could gets people’s attention?
0:42:28 Attention is the most precious commodity
0:42:30 we have in the world today.
0:42:31 So that makes it relevant.
0:42:33 Here’s what’s important for you.
0:42:35 For example, grounds it in reality.
0:42:38 We remember detail better than we remember high-level information
0:42:41 and that’s not all extends and expands
0:42:44 whatever you’re talking about beyond the moment.
0:42:46 So just knowing those four sentence starters
0:42:48 can help you pitch anything in the moment.
0:42:51 And one of the things that can also help us
0:42:54 with having our speeches be sticky
0:42:57 and having people remember what we say is brevity.
0:43:00 So speaking of Apple, you talk about Steve Jobs
0:43:04 and he’s got the iPod and he’s got very focused messaging.
0:43:07 A thousand songs in your pocket is the focused message.
0:43:12 But how can we come up with our own impromptu brief message?
0:43:14 What are some tactics for that?
0:43:17 Yes. So two things beyond having a structure.
0:43:20 Structure is critical to being more concise.
0:43:22 Two things. One, you have to think about your audience
0:43:25 and what’s relevant and most important to them.
0:43:26 And then focus everything you’re doing
0:43:30 like a magnet towards that relevance.
0:43:32 So I am constantly thinking to myself,
0:43:36 what is most important to my audience in this moment?
0:43:38 And that’s what helps me focus.
0:43:42 Second, all communication, planned or spontaneous,
0:43:43 needs to be goal driven.
0:43:48 A goal has three parts, information, emotion and action.
0:43:49 What do I want the audience to know?
0:43:52 How do I want them to feel and what do I want them to do?
0:43:54 So before I walk into a conference room
0:43:57 where I might get questions or be asked for feedback,
0:43:59 I think what do I want this audience to know?
0:44:02 How do I want them to feel and what do I want them to do?
0:44:05 By focusing on relevance and by focusing on your goal,
0:44:08 you will become more concise and clear.
0:44:10 And if you can then convey your message
0:44:12 in a structure like we just talked about,
0:44:16 that’s how you truly become relevant and focused.
0:44:19 And it makes sense because in this podcast,
0:44:20 when we first joined, I was like,
0:44:22 “Hey, it’s a lot of entrepreneurs.”
0:44:24 And then you decided out of all examples
0:44:26 to talk about the pitching example.
0:44:26 Yes, exactly.
0:44:30 Because you felt like it would be very relevant for our audience.
0:44:33 We are getting so meta right now.
0:44:34 Yes, that’s exactly what I did.
0:44:35 Yeah.
0:44:39 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:46:22 So one of the exercises you suggest
0:46:24 to help us with focus is called “Abrevity Challenge.”
0:46:25 Can you tell us about that?
0:46:29 Yes. So most of us, as I said, say more than we need to do.
0:46:32 We can actually challenge ourselves
0:46:35 to say what we’re saying with fewer words.
0:46:38 This is a game that comes from the world of improvisation
0:46:40 where you start by saying something
0:46:43 and then you cut it in half and then you cut it in half again.
0:46:47 So a great way to do this is to look at something you’ve written,
0:46:50 maybe even a text or a document or something,
0:46:55 and challenge yourself to say it in half the number of words.
0:46:56 How would you do that?
0:46:59 And again, I’m not saying that whatever the result of that is
0:47:01 in half number of words is the right way to do it,
0:47:05 but what we’re training our brain in this brevity example
0:47:07 is we’re training to prioritize.
0:47:10 Here’s a great use for AI, by the way.
0:47:12 If you’ve written something, an email, a document,
0:47:15 put it in AI and say, “Make it half as long,”
0:47:17 or highlight just the key elements
0:47:19 and then look at what it comes out with.
0:47:21 I’m not saying to leverage what it comes out with,
0:47:26 but just look at what it has done to make it more concise
0:47:27 and then use that as a reference point.
0:47:28 Say, “Oh, you know what it did?
0:47:30 It cut out all the big words.”
0:47:31 Or do you know what it did?
0:47:35 It took all of the action verbs and put them up front.
0:47:39 So you begin to see how you can prioritize
0:47:40 and get briefer in what you say.
0:47:42 So whenever you write something,
0:47:44 you can always challenge yourself and say,
0:47:46 “How would I say this in half as long?”
0:47:47 By training that process,
0:47:50 you train your brain to do that in real time.
0:47:54 I know Mark Twain, I think, has this quote,
0:47:54 “Writing is easy.
0:47:57 You just got to cross out all the wrong words,”
0:47:58 or something like that.
0:47:59 Absolutely.
0:48:02 He’s got wonderful sayings about communication.
0:48:04 But right, it’s about self-editing,
0:48:05 but doing it very quickly.
0:48:07 And the more you practice it, the better you get at it.
0:48:09 We are talking about business right now.
0:48:14 How do we get better at reading the room in business situations?
0:48:15 Yes, yes.
0:48:17 So my podcast is “Think Fast, Talk Smart.”
0:48:19 The book is “Think Faster, Talk Smarter.”
0:48:22 The “Think Fast” and “Think Faster” part
0:48:23 are all about pattern recognition.
0:48:27 And we have to remind ourselves
0:48:28 that whenever we’re communicating,
0:48:30 patterns are at play.
0:48:32 And we have to be looking at those patterns
0:48:34 and cataloging those patterns.
0:48:36 Many of us are in repetitive situations.
0:48:39 We have meetings with the same people over and over,
0:48:41 or we do similar tasks, like you interview,
0:48:42 now you interview different people,
0:48:43 but you’re interviewing,
0:48:47 and you can begin to look and notice patterns.
0:48:49 Many of us are just so focused
0:48:51 on getting through our communication
0:48:55 that we don’t spend time focusing on the patterns.
0:48:58 And if we can train ourselves to look at those patterns,
0:48:59 it helps us read the room.
0:49:00 That’s what reading the room is.
0:49:02 It’s pattern recognition.
0:49:05 So we might notice that 10 minutes
0:49:08 into most of our meetings, the energy level dips.
0:49:09 Well, that’s a pattern.
0:49:11 And I can notice, hey, we’re coming up on 10 minutes.
0:49:13 Maybe I should do something different.
0:49:16 So reading the room to me is all about just
0:49:18 observing what’s going on in the moment
0:49:20 and then reflecting on it after the fact
0:49:21 and coming up with a plan
0:49:24 on how to deal with it in the future.
0:49:27 So we have to take the time to get a little meta
0:49:30 in our communication to observe what’s going on
0:49:31 and then to really reflect
0:49:33 and then be prepared to adjust and adapt
0:49:34 when we see those things play out.
0:49:36 I remember one of the first interviews
0:49:40 that I ever did on this podcast was with Chase Hughes.
0:49:43 And he’s a behavioral expert.
0:49:46 And I remember he told me if people start blinking really fast,
0:49:48 it means that they’re not paying attention.
0:49:51 And that if somebody’s blinking normally,
0:49:52 that means that they’re engaged.
0:49:54 But if they start blinking really fast,
0:49:56 it means that they’re not paying attention.
0:49:59 And of course, if they’re looking around at their shoes
0:50:00 or like at the door or something like that–
0:50:02 Well, Hala, I’m now going to just–
0:50:04 I’m just going to stare the whole time
0:50:05 so you think I’m paying attention to it.
0:50:06 Yes, now you’re right.
0:50:07 But you have to observe that.
0:50:10 You have to notice that, right, in order to act on it.
0:50:11 Yeah.
0:50:13 How about when we’re negotiating?
0:50:16 I know that’s a big thing also for entrepreneurs.
0:50:19 When we’re negotiating or trying to convince
0:50:22 even our partner of something, how should we communicate?
0:50:25 Oh, this is a big topic.
0:50:27 I think Fast Talk Smart is all about communication tips.
0:50:29 And we spent a lot of time talking about negotiation.
0:50:32 So I’ve talked to lots of experts, as I know you have.
0:50:33 Let me summarize a couple of things
0:50:36 that I’ve taken away from all of my interviews.
0:50:39 First and foremost, we have to know what we want.
0:50:40 What is it that we want and what is it
0:50:44 that we’re willing to give up in our non-negotiables?
0:50:46 Many of us enter into negotiations
0:50:49 without a clear what’s our non-negotiable.
0:50:50 And where can we negotiate?
0:50:51 That’s number one.
0:50:54 Number two, we have to take the time
0:50:56 to think about the other person’s position.
0:51:01 How much do they prioritize what it is we’re negotiating over?
0:51:05 We have this assumption that we make that everybody
0:51:08 that we’re dealing with holds whatever they hold
0:51:10 at the same level we do, right?
0:51:11 And let me give an example.
0:51:14 My wife and I over the years have developed this technique,
0:51:16 so we don’t fight and our negotiations go better.
0:51:19 When we have something that we might disagree on
0:51:21 and have to negotiate about, before we ever start,
0:51:23 we declare how important that is to us.
0:51:26 So let me give a really mundane simple example.
0:51:27 Let’s say we want to go out to dinner
0:51:29 and my wife really wants to go to Italian food
0:51:32 and I really want to do Mexican food.
0:51:34 That could be a negotiation, that could be a fight.
0:51:37 But before we do it, we simply say, declare our priorities.
0:51:39 She might say, going to Italian food,
0:51:41 that’s an eight on a scale of one to 10.
0:51:43 And for me, Mexican food’s a four.
0:51:45 There’s no negotiation, there’s no conflict.
0:51:48 What happens is I might assume, well,
0:51:51 her desire is the same as my desire,
0:51:52 and I’m going to really push.
0:51:55 And now all of a sudden, because I’m pushing,
0:51:58 her desire rises because, hey, nobody likes to be threatened.
0:52:01 So figure out priorities as best you can
0:52:03 because you might not even need to negotiate.
0:52:07 The third bit of advice is to think about the approach
0:52:10 and metaphor that you’re bringing to the situation.
0:52:12 Michelle Gelfand, who’s a colleague of mine
0:52:14 at Stanford Business School, studies negotiation.
0:52:17 And she says, mind your metaphors.
0:52:19 A lot of us, when we approach negotiation,
0:52:21 see it as a battle, see it as a fight.
0:52:24 And when you see it that way, that changes your whole demeanor,
0:52:26 how you approach it, the words you use.
0:52:31 But if you see it as a dance or as a conversation,
0:52:34 that changes it as well, or a problem to be solved.
0:52:36 So think about how are you approaching it?
0:52:39 And then the last thing, and I’m sure this isn’t surprising,
0:52:42 you have to approach from a place of listening.
0:52:44 Many of us go and say, here are all the reasons
0:52:46 we should do it my way.
0:52:48 Start by listening, start by asking questions.
0:52:49 That also connects you,
0:52:51 but you get an idea of what’s important.
0:52:54 So if you follow those four steps,
0:52:56 really know what your non-negotiables are.
0:52:58 Think about the person’s prioritization.
0:53:01 How are you approaching it in terms of your mindset,
0:53:02 your metaphor?
0:53:05 And then ultimately listening, you’re going to negotiate better.
0:53:08 One of my last questions for you is about networking.
0:53:10 A lot of us have to go to these networking events.
0:53:13 How can we best prepare?
0:53:15 Like you mentioned, even though it’s spontaneous,
0:53:16 there’s still preparation involved.
0:53:19 And then how do we excel at small talk?
0:53:22 When you’re networking, just like when you’re interviewing,
0:53:23 first and foremost, you should be thinking
0:53:25 about who are the people that are in the space
0:53:28 or in the room or on the Zoom that you’re connecting with.
0:53:31 So do some research, reconnaissance and reflection
0:53:33 about who the people are that you might be speaking to,
0:53:35 because that will help you focus your content.
0:53:39 Second, come up with themes that you want to get across.
0:53:41 So in a networking environment,
0:53:44 what are some key ideas I want to get across and share?
0:53:47 And you can plan those in advance, whatever those are.
0:53:49 You may want to share your opinions,
0:53:51 or you have strong opinions on AI
0:53:54 or something going on in the news.
0:53:55 That’s your theme.
0:54:00 And then stockpile some specific support for those themes.
0:54:01 Maybe it’s a story you have.
0:54:04 Maybe it’s some data you heard about.
0:54:06 Maybe it’s a conversation you had with somebody else.
0:54:07 So you stockpile those.
0:54:09 Think of it this way.
0:54:11 If you ever see a restaurant’s kitchen
0:54:13 and everybody’s cooking fast and furious
0:54:15 during a high-peak time at the restaurant,
0:54:17 they have everything prepared in advance.
0:54:20 Everything’s pre-chopped, pre-sautéed.
0:54:21 So they’re just assembling.
0:54:23 You can do the same thing.
0:54:24 Think about these themes,
0:54:26 and then think about these different types
0:54:28 of support for those themes.
0:54:30 So when I’m in the networking situation
0:54:31 and somebody brings up a point,
0:54:33 I can say I can connect that point
0:54:35 to this theme I wanted to get across,
0:54:37 and I can pull in this example.
0:54:39 So you’ve taken the pressure off of yourself
0:54:41 to originate in the moment.
0:54:44 And instead, you’re just connecting and building,
0:54:46 and that can actually help you feel better.
0:54:49 And it allows you to be more agile and spontaneous.
0:54:50 Think about this.
0:54:53 An athlete does drills for certain aspects of the game.
0:54:54 You know, professional basketball players
0:54:56 do a lot of free throws, right?
0:54:58 Or they do a lot of positional work.
0:54:59 So if I’m in this position
0:55:01 and the ball comes to me in this way,
0:55:02 I shoot it in that way.
0:55:03 That’s what you’re doing.
0:55:06 So when it happens, you’re free to respond,
0:55:07 but you’ve done that pre-work.
0:55:09 So have a clear theme.
0:55:10 Have some supporting material
0:55:12 that you can pull into that theme.
0:55:15 And then when it comes to small talk directly,
0:55:17 start with questions or observations.
0:55:19 Ask somebody a question
0:55:21 or observe something that’s happening
0:55:22 in the environment.
0:55:23 Just comment on it.
0:55:25 I made a great good friend
0:55:28 simply by standing in line at a conference.
0:55:29 I didn’t know anybody.
0:55:30 I looked around and I noticed
0:55:32 lots of people were dressed in blue.
0:55:33 It wasn’t a uniform.
0:55:34 It just happened to be coincidence.
0:55:35 I turned to the guy.
0:55:37 I said, “I didn’t get the memo on wearing blue.”
0:55:38 He looked around and said, “You’re right.
0:55:40 Everybody’s wearing blue.”
0:55:41 Started a great conversation.
0:55:42 We’ve now become friends.
0:55:44 When I travel to where he lives,
0:55:45 I visit him all the time.
0:55:48 It started simply with an observation.
0:55:50 The last thing I’ll say is,
0:55:52 the thing that challenges many people
0:55:53 in small talk is getting out of it.
0:55:55 How do you end it?
0:55:57 Rachel Greenwald, who I mentioned earlier,
0:55:58 taught me this technique.
0:55:59 She calls it the white flag.
0:56:01 Not for surrender,
0:56:02 but in auto racing,
0:56:04 the white flag is what you wave
0:56:06 right before you end the race.
0:56:08 So when you want to end small talk,
0:56:10 most of us just rely on biology.
0:56:10 I’m hungry.
0:56:11 I’m thirsty.
0:56:12 I have to go to the bathroom.
0:56:13 It’s awkward.
0:56:15 Instead, you wave the white flag.
0:56:17 You signal you’re going to leave in a little bit.
0:56:18 So if you and I were talking,
0:56:20 I might say, I’ve really enjoyed this conversation.
0:56:21 In a few minutes,
0:56:22 I’m going to go over there and talk to people.
0:56:23 But before I leave,
0:56:24 I want to ask you one more question
0:56:27 about something you did on a recent podcast.
0:56:29 So do you see what I’ve done there?
0:56:31 I’ve signaled that I’m going to leave soon
0:56:32 so you can prepare yourself.
0:56:34 It’s not a surprise,
0:56:36 but I dive in for just a little bit more information.
0:56:39 So before you start,
0:56:41 you do your stockpiling in your themes
0:56:42 and you now know a way to end.
0:56:45 It makes networking and small talk so much easier.
0:56:46 Oh my gosh.
0:56:48 That was such good advice.
0:56:50 And I don’t do this on purpose.
0:56:52 I never did it on purpose,
0:56:55 but because I go speak at so many podcast conferences,
0:56:58 what happens is I’m preparing these awesome presentations
0:57:00 and I’m pulling all this data.
0:57:01 And then the whole time,
0:57:03 I’m just touting what I learned in my presentation
0:57:05 to everybody when I’m doing small talk.
0:57:06 And that’s my theme.
0:57:09 And I never realized that I’m actually doing that,
0:57:11 but didn’t realize that I was doing that.
0:57:12 So that’s just such a cool tip,
0:57:15 especially for people who might not be doing a presentation
0:57:16 to treat it like you would.
0:57:18 So I love that.
0:57:20 So in your book,
0:57:23 you talk about an NPR journalist
0:57:25 who has a killer last question
0:57:28 that she likes to ask her interviewees.
0:57:30 Can you tell us about this killer last question
0:57:31 and why it works?
0:57:34 This is Deborah Schifrin you’re talking about.
0:57:37 Deborah is also a colleague at Stanford.
0:57:39 And before I tell you the question,
0:57:44 her goal is to give people an opportunity to say more.
0:57:47 So a lot of us in our dialogue,
0:57:49 we ask a question, they respond, we ask a question.
0:57:52 But if you actually pause for a moment
0:57:53 and you ask people
0:57:56 and you just give them an opportunity to say more.
0:57:58 So not only does she say,
0:57:59 is there anything else you’d like to say?
0:58:00 Her magic question is,
0:58:02 is there anything more you’d like to add?
0:58:05 She also builds in a pause.
0:58:08 So when somebody’s done answering a question,
0:58:09 if you pause just a little bit
0:58:12 before you ask the next question or comment on it,
0:58:14 you give people space.
0:58:17 We are so busy.
0:58:20 And our attention is so pulled in different directions.
0:58:24 Space to say more is a gift.
0:58:28 And so if you allow people more space,
0:58:30 you actually show that you care,
0:58:32 that you want to learn more,
0:58:34 and that you want to connect.
0:58:35 So I encourage all of you,
0:58:37 when you are having deep, meaningful conversations,
0:58:40 or want to have deep, meaningful relationships,
0:58:42 pause a little bit,
0:58:44 give people space,
0:58:45 and really listen to what they say,
0:58:47 and it will transform those relationships.
0:58:50 So we’re going to get mad at again,
0:58:53 is there anything important that I neglected to ask?
0:58:55 Oh, well, thank you for that opportunity.
0:58:58 I think one of the things we did not talk about
0:59:00 that is important for us to think about
0:59:02 is not just what you say,
0:59:04 but how you say it.
0:59:06 We need to be thinking about
0:59:08 our body and our voices when we communicate.
0:59:12 So it’s not just feeling comfortable and confident
0:59:13 speaking in the moment.
0:59:15 It is appearing comfortable and confident.
0:59:18 So let me share just a couple bits of advice
0:59:20 about what we can do with our body and our voices.
0:59:24 First and foremost, you want to be big.
0:59:25 Many of us, when we get nervous
0:59:26 or are feeling threatened,
0:59:28 we make ourselves small.
0:59:29 So the best thing you can do
0:59:31 is take your shoulder blades
0:59:32 and just pull them down,
0:59:34 make yourself broad.
0:59:35 I’m not pushing my elbows back.
0:59:36 I’m not puffing my chest out.
0:59:38 I just pull my shoulder blades down,
0:59:40 and I make myself look bigger.
0:59:41 You look more confident.
0:59:44 You want to hold your head straight and not tilted.
0:59:46 I’m not saying be stiff and rigid.
0:59:47 Just make yourself big.
0:59:48 When you speak,
0:59:49 vary your voice.
0:59:54 If I were to have spoken like this
0:59:56 for this entire interview,
0:59:58 people would have left a long time ago.
1:00:00 Our brains are wild for novelty,
1:00:02 things that change.
1:00:04 So add emotive words.
1:00:06 If you are somebody who doesn’t have a lot of variation,
1:00:07 add adjectives and adverbs.
1:00:08 So I would never say,
1:00:10 “I’m really excited to be here.”
1:00:12 No, I’d say, “I’m really excited.”
1:00:14 So emphasize those words.
1:00:16 So the one thing we didn’t talk about
1:00:19 is how you say what you say,
1:00:20 and we need to remember that.
1:00:22 And the single easiest way to work on this
1:00:24 is to record yourself,
1:00:26 either through voice memo or through video.
1:00:29 Really easy to do that these days and watch.
1:00:30 It’s painful to watch yourself,
1:00:31 but when you do,
1:00:33 you’ll see these things that work for you
1:00:35 and things that you might want to change.
1:00:37 All of my MBA students I teach,
1:00:39 whenever they do a presentation,
1:00:42 I make them watch themselves without listening to it,
1:00:44 and then I make them listen to themselves
1:00:46 without watching it and then do both together.
1:00:47 And while they hate it,
1:00:50 they love it because they learn so much
1:00:52 and they actually are able to change.
1:00:52 Can you say that again?
1:00:53 What do you make them do?
1:00:54 You make them…
1:00:55 They record themselves,
1:00:57 and then they view it in three ways.
1:01:00 Video only, audio only,
1:01:01 and then both together.
1:01:02 Got it.
1:01:04 Yeah, that’d be really painful.
1:01:06 Like, for instance,
1:01:07 when I listen back to my interviews,
1:01:08 I’m like, “I hate this.
1:01:09 I can’t listen to it.”
1:01:10 But you have to do it.
1:01:12 You have to do it to improve.
1:01:14 It’s the burden of being a podcaster.
1:01:15 You have to listen and watch.
1:01:17 But my hunch is, Halle,
1:01:19 you’ve probably changed some of your communication
1:01:20 based on what you’ve seen.
1:01:22 Of course, of course.
1:01:24 So, Matt, this has been such an incredible discussion.
1:01:25 Like I mentioned,
1:01:27 I’m so excited to just go back to your book
1:01:29 and study it tooth and nail.
1:01:31 It’s called “Think Faster, Talk Smarter.”
1:01:33 I always end my show with two questions
1:01:35 that I ask all of my guests.
1:01:37 So, the first one is,
1:01:39 “What is one actionable thing
1:01:41 my young and profitors can do today
1:01:43 to become more profitable tomorrow?”
1:01:45 Focus on your communication.
1:01:47 At the end of every day,
1:01:50 take 30 seconds to think about
1:01:52 what is something that went well
1:01:53 in my communication today
1:01:55 and what is something I’d like to improve.
1:01:57 By simply taking time
1:01:59 to catalog what works for you
1:02:00 and really lean into that
1:02:02 and take the things that challenge you
1:02:03 and start fixing that,
1:02:04 working on it,
1:02:05 can help.
1:02:06 Every day I do this
1:02:07 and on the weekends,
1:02:08 I go back and look at everything
1:02:10 and then I set a plan for myself.
1:02:11 So, I am constantly working
1:02:13 and honing on my communication
1:02:15 and it will help you be more profitable.
1:02:17 It’ll help you connect better with people
1:02:19 and ultimately help you feel better
1:02:21 about the relationships you have.
1:02:24 And what is your secret to profiting in life
1:02:26 and this can go beyond financial and business?
1:02:29 Being open to opportunity.
1:02:31 I rarely say no.
1:02:33 I say yes to many opportunities
1:02:34 and my life has unfolded
1:02:37 really pleasantly and in great ways.
1:02:40 Simply because many people’s natural responses
1:02:42 to say no to be protective
1:02:44 and I like to approach things
1:02:46 with curiosity and openness.
1:02:48 So, I encourage everybody to do that.
1:02:49 It has been my superpower
1:02:51 where I’ve looked for opportunity
1:02:52 and really driven towards it.
1:02:55 And where can everybody learn more about you?
1:02:57 Tell us about your podcast
1:02:58 and everything like that.
1:02:59 Oh, thank you for the opportunity.
1:03:01 This has been fantastic.
1:03:03 So, the podcast is called “Think Fast, Talk Smart.”
1:03:05 It is 20-minute episodes
1:03:08 about communication, all aspects of it.
1:03:10 We’ve been around for almost five years,
1:03:11 lots of episodes.
1:03:14 Check us out at FasterSmarter.io
1:03:16 where everywhere you get your podcasts
1:03:18 and including YouTube.
1:03:21 Check out the book, “Think Faster, Talk Smarter.”
1:03:22 You can get it wherever you get your books.
1:03:25 Really trying to help people hone
1:03:26 and develop their communication
1:03:27 and improve their careers.
1:03:30 Amazing. Matt, I had such a fun time
1:03:31 in this conversation.
1:03:32 I personally learned so much.
1:03:34 I feel like you’re going to impact me
1:03:35 for many years to come
1:03:36 just with this conversation.
1:03:38 So, thank you for your time today.
1:03:39 Hala, thank you.
1:03:40 This was a true delight.
1:03:41 You are a master at what you do.
1:03:49 While young improvisers, there you have it.
1:03:51 Learning to communicate effectively with others
1:03:53 is such an important part
1:03:55 of getting ahead in life and business.
1:03:58 And learning to speak better spontaneously
1:04:00 is a skill that we could all get better at,
1:04:02 even if it’s just so that we can be
1:04:04 a little bit more interesting
1:04:06 at that next networking event or social gathering.
1:04:09 Matt Abraham’s has so many great tips
1:04:11 for exactly how to do this,
1:04:12 and I just want to highlight
1:04:14 a few of my favorite things here in closing.
1:04:16 First, small talk.
1:04:19 This can be super awkward sometimes,
1:04:20 but there’s just one thing
1:04:22 that you need to remember to raise your game,
1:04:24 and that’s be curious.
1:04:26 Focus on being interested
1:04:28 more than being interesting.
1:04:30 People love to talk about themselves,
1:04:31 so give them a chance to shine.
1:04:34 Try using supporting conversational tactics
1:04:37 that focus the conversation on the other person
1:04:39 more than you use switching tactics
1:04:40 to bring it back to yourself.
1:04:44 Part of this also involves being a better listener,
1:04:47 and a great way to improve your listening ability
1:04:48 is to focus on the bottom line
1:04:50 of what the person is saying,
1:04:51 not just the top line.
1:04:54 Next, maximize your mediocrity.
1:04:56 We put so much pressure on ourselves
1:04:58 to say the perfect thing
1:05:00 that we leave ourselves little actual bandwidth
1:05:02 to focus on the conversation at hand.
1:05:04 If you give your permission
1:05:06 to just be basic and acceptable,
1:05:08 then you’ll release this pressure
1:05:11 and give yourself a better chance of being engaging.
1:05:14 Yap, I’ve thought about this hack so many times.
1:05:16 It has helped me so much personally
1:05:18 in interviews and talking
1:05:19 with really impressive people.
1:05:22 I just tell myself, “Hala, just listen and be basic.
1:05:24 It will make them like you more.”
1:05:26 It’s worked like a charm,
1:05:27 and another great hack.
1:05:30 If you’re still feeling nervous before you have to speak,
1:05:31 then try to cool yourself down
1:05:33 by holding something cold in your hands
1:05:35 for a few minutes.
1:05:36 Work off some nervous energy
1:05:38 and get fully present in the moment
1:05:41 by walking around, listening to some music,
1:05:43 or even just saying a tongue twister
1:05:44 over and over to yourself.
1:05:45 All right, guys.
1:05:47 I’m going to raise the white flag
1:05:48 on this particular episode,
1:05:50 but before I leave the party,
1:05:52 I wanted to leave you with one more question
1:05:55 to ask yourselves as you think about this episode.
1:05:56 What was your key takeaway?
1:05:59 What insight was most important to you
1:06:00 and how are you going to use it?
1:06:02 All right, I’m out, young and profitors.
1:06:03 That’s all the time we have today.
1:06:05 Thanks for listening to this episode.
1:06:07 And if you listened, learned, and profited
1:06:10 from this incredible conversation with Matt Abraham’s,
1:06:11 please share this episode
1:06:13 with somebody who might love it.
1:06:15 And if you did learn something new,
1:06:17 if you enjoyed the show, then take a couple minutes,
1:06:21 drop us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify.
1:06:23 Nothing helps us reach more people
1:06:24 than a great review from you.
1:06:27 And guys, I read these reviews every single day
1:06:28 I check for new reviews.
1:06:29 They make my day.
1:06:31 I love getting feedback about the show.
1:06:32 It motivates me.
1:06:34 It motivates the team.
1:06:35 It motivates people to listen to the show.
1:06:40 So do your part and write us a review on Apple Podcasts.
1:06:42 And if you prefer to watch your podcasts as videos,
1:06:45 I’ve been doing so many in-person videos.
1:06:47 I just interviewed Mel Robbins in person.
1:06:50 I interviewed Gary Vee in person.
1:06:52 I interviewed Sahil Bloom the other day in person.
1:06:54 If you want to watch those videos,
1:06:55 head to our YouTube channel.
1:06:56 Just look up Young and Profiting.
1:06:58 You’ll find all of our videos on there.
1:07:01 You can also find me on Instagram @yappithala.
1:07:04 I’ve got a lot of fun stories you guys can follow along.
1:07:06 Or LinkedIn, search my name.
1:07:07 It’s Hala Taha.
1:07:08 You can’t miss me on there.
1:07:11 Before we wrap, I did want to give a big shout out
1:07:13 to my incredible YAP Media Production team.
1:07:15 That’s my production agency.
1:07:18 And it really takes a village to put on this show.
1:07:21 So shout out to Christina, shout out to Sean,
1:07:26 shout out to Paul, Raven, Hisham, Furkan, Joshua, Max.
1:07:29 Shout out to everybody for working so hard on the show.
1:07:31 This is your host, Hala Taha,
1:07:34 a.k.a. The Podcast Princess, signing off.
1:07:36 (upbeat music)
1:07:39 (upbeat music)
1:07:42 (upbeat music)
1:07:44 (upbeat music)
1:07:47 (upbeat music)
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