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0:01:21 What’s up, YAP BAM?
0:01:23 Welcome back to the show.
0:01:27 So for this episode of YAP Classic, we’re replaying my interview with the disruptive
0:01:30 visionary Gabor George Burt.
0:01:34 He originally came on the show in May of 2022, episode 169.
0:01:39 Now, even though this episode was a couple years ago, I still remember it to this day
0:01:44 because I felt very inspired, very energized after the conversation with Gabor.
0:01:50 He’s a global authority on reimagining boundaries and one of the creators behind the Blue Ocean
0:01:55 strategy, which is this hugely influential leadership concept about capturing uncontested
0:01:57 market space.
0:02:02 In this episode, Gabor and I talk about his slingshot strategy, which employs creativity
0:02:07 and innovation to bring your business from the Red Sea, where there’s no true differentiation
0:02:12 between you and your competitors, to the Blue Ocean, where competition is irrelevant
0:02:14 and opportunity is endless.
0:02:18 If you’re eager to dominate your market niche, render your competition irrelevant and make
0:02:23 sure your customers are 100% infatuated with your brand, you’ve got to hear what Gabor
0:02:26 has to say in this conversation.
0:02:27 So let’s dive in.
0:02:30 Here’s my interview with Gabor George Burt.
0:02:34 I’m super excited for this topic.
0:02:36 I think my listeners are going to really enjoy it.
0:02:40 You’re a pioneer in business creativity and innovation, and I can’t wait to get into
0:02:44 the Blue Ocean strategy and the slingshot strategy, which is all about harnessing your
0:02:47 creativity in a more systematic way.
0:02:51 But first, I want to get to know you better and understand your childhood and how you
0:02:55 grew up and how that instilled curiosity in you later in life as an adult.
0:02:57 So you were born in Budapest, Hungary.
0:02:59 You moved to the US when you were just a child.
0:03:03 You were thrown into an entirely new environment without speaking a word of English.
0:03:07 So how did this cultural immersion impact who you are today?
0:03:09 Yeah, thank you for that question.
0:03:14 First of all, I’d like to point out that for a very brief moment in time, I was once the
0:03:22 youngest person on earth, and I reflect on that because it’s true for you and of course
0:03:23 everyone listening in.
0:03:28 But it’s kind of something that we never really think about, but it’s a powerful thing to
0:03:36 actually keep within us, because everything that I talk about and all the slingshot platform
0:03:42 is at its core, is reconnecting with our childhood essence and sense of curiosity and wonder and
0:03:43 creativity.
0:03:49 But yeah, as you said, I was born in Budapest and you were very generous when you said that
0:03:52 I moved at a young age because really I had no choice, right?
0:03:59 I was taken, so I was plucked out of the environment that I knew and thought was my world and taken
0:04:00 to a completely different one.
0:04:08 Yeah, I didn’t speak a word of English, completely different space, and that had a profound impact
0:04:11 on me as you can imagine as a child.
0:04:16 It gave me this sense of detached curiosity, a sense of questioning things.
0:04:22 Why does this work here differently than somewhere else where I came from?
0:04:29 And also set in motion this lifelong passion to travel and to experience new things.
0:04:33 So yeah, that’s where I think everything that I do today started from.
0:04:37 So something that’s funny is that a lot of the guests that come on my show, they’re
0:04:43 very, very great entrepreneurs, business strategists, and a lot of them studied psychology in college,
0:04:47 which is super interesting because most people who go through that past become a psychiatrist
0:04:49 or something along those lines.
0:04:52 So what does psychology teach you about business?
0:04:58 Well, it’s also a very rich observation that you’re making, that a lot of your guests have
0:05:00 that commonality.
0:05:06 I think for me, it was always this notion about just a deep interest on what really
0:05:08 motivates people.
0:05:12 Why do people behave and do things and think things that they do?
0:05:15 And that really was the origin of that, even without thinking about business.
0:05:21 But then when I got into my later studies and got into the field of economics and business,
0:05:26 I thought it was the most natural connection because ultimately every single business,
0:05:28 every single transaction is about people.
0:05:30 It’s about relationships.
0:05:36 So understanding what motivates people to buy, not to buy, to be attached to your brand
0:05:42 is really essential and it’s really at the heart of, I think, any successful business.
0:05:43 Yeah, 100%.
0:05:47 I always wish that I studied psychology for that exact same reason.
0:05:48 It’s super interesting.
0:05:53 So you were one of the first core experts behind a concept called blue ocean strategy.
0:05:55 Now before I even match you, I’ve heard of this.
0:05:56 I’ve heard of blue oceans.
0:05:57 I’ve heard of red oceans.
0:05:58 I got my MBA.
0:06:02 It’s something that is talked about in these kind of systems.
0:06:07 So let us know what blue ocean strategy is exactly at a high level.
0:06:08 Yeah, sure.
0:06:18 So blue ocean strategy is a concept that became popular about almost 20 years ago now, first
0:06:21 through a series of articles in the Harvard Business Review and then a book by the same
0:06:24 name, Blue Ocean Strategy.
0:06:30 And as the wonderful imagery suggests, it’s about strategy that allows you to create your
0:06:36 own market space where you separate yourself from the competition in such a profound way
0:06:42 that they become irrelevant, that you have a space to yourself and a mass of customers
0:06:45 who are attracted to your value proposition.
0:06:52 And in contrast, red oceans is where everybody accepts the same market conditions, the same
0:06:56 market boundaries, and they’re trying to out-compete one another over market share.
0:07:00 And it’s bloody, and it’s highly cutthroat and competitive.
0:07:03 So that’s the basic essence of blue ocean strategy.
0:07:04 Cool.
0:07:10 So I know that one of the core premises of blue ocean strategy is called value innovation.
0:07:16 And so that states that successful companies, they both use differentiation and lower cost
0:07:20 in order to create new demand and create blue ocean market space.
0:07:25 So this goes against traditional management views because previously people used to say
0:07:30 you either need to be highly differentiated or be a low cost provider, but not both.
0:07:31 So can you explain that to us?
0:07:38 Yeah, that’s kind of intersection of those two philosophies or those two actions is,
0:07:40 as you say, it’s not immediately obvious.
0:07:45 In fact, it’s counterintuitive, and that’s part of the power of blue ocean strategy.
0:07:48 So a really good example, perhaps, is Nintendo’s Wii.
0:07:56 So Nintendo’s Wii, before the Wii gaming industry, was by and large limited to 5% of
0:07:59 the population, anti-social teenage boys, right?
0:08:05 And everybody competed within that space, and that was the red ocean until Nintendo thought
0:08:11 about, well, wait a minute, there’s 95% of the population that never plays games.
0:08:12 Why?
0:08:16 And that why led to them then say, well, it’s because they don’t want to sit passively
0:08:18 in front of a screen.
0:08:21 So what could we do to attract them?
0:08:22 The Wii motion sensor.
0:08:29 And that was the combination of two traditionally separate entertainment forms, passive and
0:08:30 active entertainment.
0:08:36 And once they fused those together, then they broke barriers, and now they became relevant
0:08:39 to 95% of the population.
0:08:40 That’s the blue ocean.
0:08:46 And to answer your question, to see that duality, so they raised the value proposition, and that
0:08:54 is supported by the fact that for years, after the introduction of the Wii, the price online
0:08:58 and on Amazon was actually higher than if you could buy it new.
0:09:00 There was so much extra demand.
0:09:08 And it was lowering the actual cost because the Wii used off-the-shelf components.
0:09:14 So they didn’t use state-of-the-art technology, which their competitors, Sony and Microsoft
0:09:16 at the time, they went the other way.
0:09:20 They went very simple, and they made money on every one of their modules.
0:09:23 So what they got right is the value part.
0:09:28 That’s the value innovation, and they understood what they could let go, what they could eliminate
0:09:31 from cost, which was competing on technology.
0:09:33 So that’s the idea.
0:09:34 That’s super interesting.
0:09:37 Let’s talk about the slingshot strategy.
0:09:42 Your slingshot framework has five steps or five prongs, and I’d love for you to tell
0:09:47 us more about that, and how entrepreneurs can use this to eventually get to Blue Ocean
0:09:48 Strategy.
0:09:50 Yeah, that’s a great question.
0:09:56 So let me also add on that as a way of making the connection between the two clear.
0:10:03 So as I said, Blue Ocean Strategy is a wonderful, wonderful concept, and it has been extremely
0:10:04 well received.
0:10:14 So it has been translated into over four million copies in terms of books, and over 50 languages,
0:10:16 including Mongolian and Icelandic.
0:10:21 So it really has conquered the world.
0:10:28 But in my over 10 years of Blue Oceanography around the world, helping organizations understand
0:10:35 and apply the concept, what I discovered was that everybody loved the idea of Blue Ocean.
0:10:40 But it was very difficult for most organizations to actually put it in practice.
0:10:45 So there was a disconnect between aspiration and implementation.
0:10:49 And one of the key things was that everybody thought that Blue Ocean was about having to
0:10:54 do something completely new, that you have to abandon what you’ve done and what you’re
0:10:55 good at.
0:11:01 And so in Slingshot, what I talk about is three levels of Blue Waters.
0:11:07 First is Blue Lake, which is the most accessible, and that’s refreshing and optimizing what
0:11:08 you’re already doing.
0:11:12 The second is Blue Sea, which is expanding what you’re doing.
0:11:16 And the third is Blue Ocean, which is creating something new.
0:11:22 And when you frame it this way, then you can all of a sudden pursue innovation from very
0:11:26 small incremental, all the way to transformational.
0:11:28 You don’t have to sacrifice anything.
0:11:35 And you can start out with a Blue Lake, which opens up the floodgates to much bigger waters,
0:11:40 to a blue sea and blue ocean, as water naturally flows into bigger bodies.
0:11:42 So that’s one of the key premises.
0:11:49 And in terms of the five steps, the first thing I talk about is something I call a customer
0:11:51 infatuation.
0:12:01 And to me, that word infatuation is the perfect way to describe the customer relationship
0:12:07 that you want to have, because it’s the only word that has a strong emotional component,
0:12:12 but also a time component that it’s fleeting, that it’s temporary.
0:12:17 So understanding that anything you do for your customers has a cycle, that they will
0:12:22 react to it emotionally and really be excited by it at the beginning.
0:12:29 But as it transitions and becomes a new normal, their excitement level becomes less and less,
0:12:35 is fundamental to understanding that you have now the golden opportunity to continuously
0:12:36 renew your offering.
0:12:37 So that’s what I talk about.
0:12:43 And then the second is to expand what you do and think of it as lifestyle or work style
0:12:45 enrichment.
0:12:50 So you don’t just want to do something that is a functional advantage to your customer.
0:12:53 You want to put it in a larger context.
0:12:56 How does it benefit the way they live or they work?
0:13:01 The third is this idea of defying conventional wisdom so that you want to liberate, and this
0:13:07 is where creativity comes in, your ability to always ask the what if questions.
0:13:15 The fourth one is this idea of the accordion chart, which is the tool that I use to stretch
0:13:20 the definition of what you do, because the broader that you can define what you do, the
0:13:24 more possibilities you have to deliver on that to your customers.
0:13:31 So for example, Starbucks, the CEO of Starbucks didn’t define their business as coffee, but
0:13:34 as human connectivity.
0:13:37 And that’s a much richer business definition.
0:13:44 And the more that you can move into that broader space and show how you connect to these core
0:13:51 human values and desires, the stronger your company’s relationship and strategic possibilities
0:13:52 will be.
0:13:56 And then the last final step is creating blue oceans, right?
0:14:00 So now you have the engine to continuously make blue ocean strategy practical.
0:14:06 And so the last step is actually now putting that into strategy and implementing it.
0:14:08 So those are the five steps.
0:14:09 I love this.
0:14:12 Honestly, I feel like this is so helpful for any entrepreneur.
0:14:16 So I want to stick on the first step, infatuation integration.
0:14:22 And so one of the things is that you mentioned is that consumers are insatiable.
0:14:30 So they often need to be reconnected with or re-infatuated with so that you can keep continuing
0:14:31 to be successful as a business.
0:14:36 So talk to us about that, the fact that you need to keep kind of re-engaging your customers
0:14:38 and keeping them infatuated.
0:14:42 Yeah, and this is where this idea of psychology comes in, right?
0:14:47 So I’m so glad you asked about that up front, because this is ancient wisdom.
0:14:53 So the first noble truth of Buddhism says that satisfaction is not real or is that it’s
0:14:54 fleeting.
0:14:56 There’s no such thing, right?
0:15:02 Recently an Israeli psychologist came up with the concept of arrival fallacy, meaning
0:15:07 that we always think that just the next thing that we want, once we achieve that, once we
0:15:09 obtain that, then we’ll be happy.
0:15:15 But once we get there, we realize, no, now there’s the next thing that we want, right?
0:15:24 And so if that is true, and I can show that just by simply asking you or challenging our
0:15:30 listeners or anyone tuning in to think about what is your favorite thing right now, something
0:15:32 that you purchased, right?
0:15:37 It could be an object or it could be an experience, a service that you paid for.
0:15:39 What is your favorite thing?
0:15:42 And is it perfect just the way it is?
0:15:48 Or can you think very quickly of things that would make it even better, even more special,
0:15:53 more customized, more fun, more comfortable for you?
0:15:55 And most of the time, do you have your answer?
0:15:56 Because I would…
0:15:57 Sure.
0:16:01 My favorite thing that I purchased so far is a trampoline, a personal trampoline that
0:16:03 I have to work out on.
0:16:04 All right.
0:16:06 How long ago did you purchase that?
0:16:09 Like, let’s say six months ago.
0:16:10 All right.
0:16:11 Is it perfect as it is?
0:16:14 Is there nothing that you would change on it at this time?
0:16:15 It’s perfect.
0:16:16 It’s pretty perfect.
0:16:18 Ah, you see, there’s a shadow of a doubt.
0:16:20 You said pretty perfect.
0:16:22 Is it absolutely completely perfect?
0:16:23 Is there nothing you would change?
0:16:24 That’s my question.
0:16:26 Maybe I would make it a little bigger.
0:16:28 Ah, there it is.
0:16:35 So you see, what I talk about is once you buy something that really resonates with you,
0:16:42 like your trampoline, then for a period of time, you will be completely enchanted by
0:16:43 it.
0:16:47 You will be blind to its faults and just love everything about it.
0:16:50 And that’s what I call the infatuation interval, right?
0:16:56 But as you start to use it, and it becomes the standard, it becomes the normal, your
0:17:00 excitement level becomes less and less, and that’s when you start to notice what would
0:17:04 you want it to be different about it, right?
0:17:06 How could it be even better for you?
0:17:11 And you just started to say something, but what if it was a little bit bigger, right?
0:17:18 And as you transition in that cycle into what I call the entitlement period, your feeling
0:17:21 becomes that this is pretty good.
0:17:26 This is what I already have, but this is what I wish I had, right?
0:17:33 And some companies are really masters at actually creating that pull to tell you that you’re
0:17:36 now ready to get our newest product.
0:17:38 Great example is Apple, right?
0:17:44 These are expensive, our smartphones are expensive products, but every eight, 10 months, they
0:17:50 come out with a new version, and we feel that that is the one we need to have, and we start
0:17:52 disconnecting from our old one.
0:17:59 So that’s the whole idea of infatuation intervals, and the whole notion of infatuation is that
0:18:05 understanding the fact that satisfaction is not an obtainable concept.
0:18:09 There’s no such thing as a permanently and completely satisfied customer, and that’s
0:18:10 a good thing, right?
0:18:14 Because if there was, whoever got there first would have complete market share.
0:18:15 Game over.
0:18:23 No, what we have is a delighted and even better and infatuated customer who reacts really
0:18:29 strongly and positively to what we do for them because it resonates, but understand that
0:18:37 that will only last a fleeting cycle, and then they’re ready to receive our next innovation
0:18:43 so that we are in a continuous cycle of refreshing and innovating that relationship, and that’s
0:18:47 where creativity comes in as our fuel.
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0:23:41 Okay, so I want to really dig deep on this because I think this is super interesting.
0:23:45 So entitlement period, like you said, that’s when consumers, they start to take notice.
0:23:49 They start to provide feedback about things that bother them about the product.
0:23:52 How can we actually use this customer feedback to fuel innovation?
0:23:53 Yeah.
0:23:59 I mean, it’s really interesting because one of the key principles, of course, of the
0:24:02 Slingshot framework is precisely this.
0:24:09 That what you want to do is continuously turn customer pain points and transform them into
0:24:11 points of infatuation.
0:24:16 So it’s not just removing something that bothers or frustrates our customer.
0:24:22 That’s a pain point, but to transform it into a point of delight and infatuation.
0:24:24 It’s incredibly powerful.
0:24:30 So my example from before about the week, the major pain point of 95% of the population
0:24:34 was that they didn’t want to sit passively in front of a screen.
0:24:36 What did Nintendo’s We Do?
0:24:43 It added and combined that experience with simulating sports, right?
0:24:47 And that created delight, joy, and infatuation, right?
0:24:48 People couldn’t get enough.
0:24:54 And every segment of the population from nursing homes to college campuses to cruise ships,
0:24:57 we’re playing a Nintendo We games, right?
0:25:04 And so it’s all about, your question is about how to use customer feedback.
0:25:11 Well, your customer’s journey with you is the ultimate playing field that you should
0:25:19 always be focused on to improve your business and to make sure that it continues to be relevant.
0:25:24 So put yourself in the position of your customer, continuously monitor them.
0:25:32 And once you identify a pain point or once you start to hear chatter like you mentioned,
0:25:37 your wish that your trampoline was a little bit bigger on social media.
0:25:42 Well, if I am the trampoline manufacturer, what I want to do is monitor social media
0:25:44 chatter about my products.
0:25:50 And if I pick that up and you’re one of the first adapters, then I want to incorporate
0:25:53 that into my next innovation, right?
0:26:01 So the idea is that you always want to monitor your customers because that is the ultimate
0:26:07 goal and mission of your business, right, is to continuously stay relevant.
0:26:10 And in fact, I say indispensable to your customers.
0:26:15 And Jeff Bezos famously said when asked, well, what business is Amazon and he said, well,
0:26:23 what we do is that we continuously seek out what do our customers need and want, right?
0:26:27 And whatever that is, we’re going to get good at providing that.
0:26:28 What an amazing answer.
0:26:33 It’s not what are our capabilities and how can we best use them?
0:26:34 No.
0:26:38 What we want to know is what do our customers, our target audience, what do they want?
0:26:39 What do they need?
0:26:43 And whatever that is, we will get good at providing that.
0:26:48 And that’s really what this is all about, is that you can always look at your customers
0:26:55 and create offerings that they’re excited about and that creates the cycles of infatuation.
0:26:59 And what you’re not saying is that we’re not creating the perfect product, right?
0:27:02 There’s no such thing as the perfect product.
0:27:07 And in Slingshot, you explore the idea of the dichotomy of perfection and personalization.
0:27:13 So talk to us about the relationship of perfection and personalization in regards to innovation.
0:27:14 Yeah.
0:27:16 That’s another great question.
0:27:23 So perfection is, we hinted at this earlier, is a fallacy, right?
0:27:24 It doesn’t exist.
0:27:27 And again, this is something that has ancient roots and cultures.
0:27:33 So the Japanese art form of Wabi Sabi is all about continuous state of imperfection.
0:27:37 And I also love the concept that life is a journey and not a destination, right?
0:27:44 So that we’re always in motion, we’re always moving, and that’s the fun part.
0:27:47 And that’s true in business too, right?
0:27:55 So perfection is not something that’s obtainable, and it’s a dangerous fallacy for any company
0:28:00 to think that it is, because it’s much more exciting to understand the fact that there
0:28:07 is no perfectly satisfied customer, and that gives us the license to continuously explore
0:28:12 and develop that relationship and give them new things and new experiences.
0:28:19 Now customization, on the other hand, is really a fascinating concept because it really creates
0:28:24 that deep relationship where in essence companies can outsource part of their work, right?
0:28:30 To say, you design it for yourself, and this has been really well used by companies like
0:28:37 Nike and Lego, where they allow their customers to basically create their own products.
0:28:41 It’s a wonderful concept, and it was also something that was key with Ikea, which started
0:28:45 the whole do-it-yourself furniture industry, right?
0:28:50 What a brilliant concept in the 1950s, so a long time ago, they said, well, what is one
0:28:52 of the big costs in our industry?
0:28:59 Well, it’s assembling furniture and then having to store and ship them in much larger containers.
0:29:04 And I said, well, what if we eliminated that, and that’s again value innovation, right?
0:29:11 We’re eliminating something, in this case giving people furniture that’s completely pre-assembled,
0:29:13 but we packaged it differently.
0:29:21 We say to our shoppers and consumers that we’re empowering you to put it together yourself,
0:29:22 do it yourself.
0:29:27 You’re building your own house or putting together your perfect apartment.
0:29:34 And it’s the same idea of customization now becomes part of the deeper relationship as
0:29:36 well as a way to value innovate.
0:29:41 And I think it also kind of relates to the customer feedback, because as you implement
0:29:46 that feedback, you’re personalizing that product for your consumers.
0:29:47 No doubt.
0:29:48 And that’s right.
0:29:53 So the perception from a customer’s viewpoint is exactly that, that, wow, this company is
0:29:58 not looking at me as one in millions, but I am special, right?
0:30:01 I am actually in a relationship with this company.
0:30:11 I can design whatever I want and do exactly as I want on this product or a service.
0:30:12 So it’s very powerful.
0:30:13 You’re right.
0:30:14 It’s a really good lever for that.
0:30:15 Okay.
0:30:18 So let’s move on to prong number two.
0:30:21 So like we discussed, we need to keep consumers infatuated.
0:30:25 And in order to do that, you need to remain continuously relevant to them.
0:30:29 So you call this lifestyle enrichment, and it’s all about staying relevant.
0:30:34 So how can business owners scan the horizon and shift course to stay relevant?
0:30:35 What are the things they can do?
0:30:41 Well, a part of the idea of relevancy is, and that’s a good segue, is what we already
0:30:48 started talking about, is you have to always monitor your customers, better yet, continuously
0:30:50 put yourself in their position.
0:30:52 So be a customer of your own business.
0:30:57 And that’s one of the first questions that I ask with organizations that I work with.
0:31:03 And I’m amazed how often leadership teams are so disconnected from their businesses
0:31:07 that they’re not customers of what they sell, right?
0:31:12 How could you then possibly understand how to lead this organization?
0:31:16 So that is one of the ways that, and it’s the best ways, the most fundamental ways
0:31:19 that you can stay relevant.
0:31:28 The other is to understand and look ahead to where the market and the world and technology
0:31:30 where everything is heading, right?
0:31:38 So one of the things I ask, I have a six-question test, and I always challenge my audiences to
0:31:43 say that, “I bet you, you won’t get more than two out of the six questions correct.”
0:31:51 Okay? And from the perspective of really forward-thinking, future-shaping, strategic thinking, and invariably
0:31:52 I win.
0:31:53 And they’re very basic questions.
0:31:57 And one of them is, who are your most important competitors, right?
0:32:03 And most people will think about it and think an answer with their direct competitors.
0:32:10 And what I say the correct answer is, is whatever is most in the hearts and the minds of your
0:32:12 target audience, right?
0:32:13 What are they thinking about?
0:32:15 What are they obsessed with?
0:32:16 Because that’s where you want to play.
0:32:22 So right now, in the wake of COVID, a lot of people, what they’re obsessed with is work-like
0:32:29 balance, safety, security, lifelong learning, a new world order, all these kind of things.
0:32:31 It’s a perfect time to ask that question.
0:32:35 And in order to stay relevant, you want to provide that answer.
0:32:39 You want to provide the solution to whatever they’re most obsessed about.
0:32:44 Because if you can do that and you come to mind when they’re thinking, well, lifelong
0:32:52 learning, work-life balance, safety, and community harmony, all these things, and you come to
0:32:55 their mind, that’s a relationship.
0:33:00 And then you’re not only just relevant, but again, beyond that, you become indispensable
0:33:01 to them, right?
0:33:03 They can’t live without you.
0:33:05 And that’s really where you want to be.
0:33:07 Is that indispensability?
0:33:14 So I’d love to understand what kids and their imagination can teach us about lifestyle enrichment.
0:33:22 I had several occasions where I was with leadership teams of very successful companies, and I give
0:33:27 them a creativity exercise, one that I do is called the Imagination Kids Challenge.
0:33:32 And it’s about a random collection of everyday objects, and the challenge is to create the
0:33:36 most fun game that you can out of just these objects.
0:33:42 And invariably, and these could be the most serious, older, very successful executives,
0:33:48 invariably, within seconds, everybody reverts to childhood playing and sense of discovery.
0:33:50 It’s a beautiful thing.
0:33:55 But on several occasions, I invited children to be the judges, right?
0:34:03 And so they become the ones that grade and rank the solutions that these very highly
0:34:05 successful adults have come up with.
0:34:07 So it’s a complete role reversal.
0:34:13 And what kids do is they have this wonderful, disarming way of just cutting to the chase
0:34:20 and asking the most disarming questions that you cannot hide behind industry expertise
0:34:22 or jargon.
0:34:25 I don’t understand why this is a good product.
0:34:29 I don’t understand why this would be fun, right?
0:34:32 Or how would this really work, any of these questions?
0:34:37 And it’s that sort of insight that if we can reconnect with that, and that’s why I always
0:34:43 encourage people who have children to interact with their children and learn from them, play
0:34:48 with them, and have them ask questions about what you’re doing as an adult.
0:34:56 Then you have this power of simplification and understanding things that we as adults
0:34:58 often overcomplicate.
0:35:05 And that’s the power of that childhood sense of creativity and the curiosity.
0:35:09 I think this is a great segue to talk about the third prong, which is defying conventional
0:35:10 wisdom.
0:35:14 So what do you think are the most important things we need to know about that one?
0:35:21 Well, with that is really this notion that we have this ability to always ask the what-if
0:35:22 questions.
0:35:28 And by not doing that, but just simply accepting things as they are, we’re doing ourselves
0:35:34 a disservice because we’re not utilizing this great resource and the quality and ability
0:35:35 that we have.
0:35:41 And we are not going to be able to fully take advantage of situations that life presents
0:35:43 us, right?
0:35:47 Because that ability is ours for the taking.
0:35:56 So the idea of defying conventional wisdom is really that reminder that why not take
0:35:58 advantage of it.
0:36:03 And there’s a wonderful quote, one of my all-time favorites by Muhammad Ali, who had this
0:36:07 fascination with the word impossible.
0:36:14 And he said that impossible is just a big word thrown around by little people who’d
0:36:21 rather live in a world that they have been given than to explore the power they have
0:36:24 to change it.
0:36:26 Impossible is not a fact.
0:36:27 It’s an opinion.
0:36:29 It’s a there, right?
0:36:34 And that’s exactly the point, is that let’s all take that there.
0:36:35 We have that choice.
0:36:41 We either accept everything as they are and just say, I don’t want to change anything
0:36:48 or to really harness the power we all have to make a difference, to be part of the future
0:36:49 shapers, right?
0:36:50 And that’s the whole idea.
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0:41:14 Something really fun that I found in your book was a test that you call the opossum test.
0:41:19 Can you talk to us about how an opossum represents the ideal business and how businesses can
0:41:23 become more like opossums or opossums?
0:41:26 Sure, and that is also one of the other six questions.
0:41:33 I just mentioned my six-question test, which is what animal would you pick to be the perfect
0:41:35 symbol of your business, right?
0:41:42 So what is an animal that you think in your mind gives an image of the perfect qualities
0:41:45 a business should possess?
0:41:52 And a lot of people gravitate towards strong animals like a lion or a eagle, right?
0:41:53 Why?
0:41:59 Because immediately your knee-jerk response is that business is war, and therefore you
0:42:03 want to be at the top of the food chain, it’s a survival of the fittest.
0:42:08 And to me, that’s the fallacy, that’s the trap, because business is not war.
0:42:13 Business is about adaptability, it’s about future-shaping, developing relationships that
0:42:15 are indispensable.
0:42:19 And so to me, one of my favorite animals as a response to that is the opossum.
0:42:20 Why?
0:42:25 Because for most animals in the animal kingdom, when they’re faced with danger, they have
0:42:28 two types of responses, fight or flight, right?
0:42:32 So either they’re capable to defend themselves or they’re fast enough to run away.
0:42:38 But the opossum doesn’t accept that wisdom, so it defines conventional wisdom by having
0:42:45 a very unconventional strategy, which is taking a nap, right, pretending that it is not alive.
0:42:51 And when the danger passes because the predator has no interest in eating a seemingly dead
0:42:56 carcass, the opossum gets up and goes along its way.
0:42:59 So the point is that it’s defying conventional wisdom.
0:43:06 I argue that in contrast to other animals who spend most of their time getting ready
0:43:10 and being prepared to fight or flight, it doesn’t have to invest anything along those
0:43:11 lines.
0:43:14 It can live a very happy, content life.
0:43:21 But then I also argue that this defense is only as good as other animals don’t start
0:43:23 to mimic it.
0:43:29 Because if every prey starts to mysteriously drop dead in front of a predator, pretty soon
0:43:32 they would start getting pretty suspicious, right?
0:43:37 So you need to continuously innovate, and that’s the point I make to companies, that
0:43:38 are you an opossum?
0:43:45 So do you have an unconventional strategy that allows you to actually do more with less?
0:43:50 And are you continuously innovating so that you’re not banking on a past innovation for
0:43:51 your future success?
0:43:53 That’s the idea.
0:43:55 I love that little story.
0:43:57 So let’s talk about the accordion chart.
0:43:58 This is prong number four.
0:44:02 It lets you zoom in and out of your offerings utility definitions.
0:44:06 So I thought this was super interesting because you basically are saying you need to come
0:44:10 up with the broadest definition possible for utility, for your offerings.
0:44:14 So why is that super important to have a broad definition as opposed to a narrow or niche
0:44:17 definition of your utility of your product?
0:44:18 Yeah.
0:44:20 And let me ask you, Hala, how do you define your business?
0:44:23 So what business are you, and I’m sitting next to you?
0:44:24 I have many businesses.
0:44:26 All right, that’s interesting.
0:44:29 So then let’s answer it this way.
0:44:30 Keep that in mind.
0:44:33 Let’s say that I’m sitting next to you at a dinner party, right?
0:44:35 And I’m really interested to talk with you.
0:44:36 I don’t know you at all.
0:44:39 So I turn to you and I say, “So what do you do?
0:44:40 What business are you in?”
0:44:42 And so what would you answer me?
0:44:44 What would be your immediate answer to that?
0:44:47 I’d say, “Hi, I’m Hala.
0:44:50 I’m the host of a number one podcast called The Young and Profiting.
0:44:55 I also have a social media and podcast agency, and I just launched a podcast network.”
0:44:56 Wow.
0:44:57 That’s a beautiful answer.
0:45:01 Now, if I asked you to limit that to four words, what would those four words be?
0:45:04 I am the podcast princess.
0:45:05 That is brilliant.
0:45:06 I love that.
0:45:09 And now here’s why, and here’s the connection.
0:45:14 So the accordion chart, and that’s why I named it that, because yeah, it’s like an accordion.
0:45:17 You can stretch the definition of your business, but it’s not a one-way stretch.
0:45:19 You can also contrast it, right?
0:45:26 So that, yeah, you want to define your business from most narrow to the most broad space possible,
0:45:30 but then decide where’s the ultimate between the two extremes that you need to play.
0:45:34 I already mentioned Starbucks, that it’s not in the coffee business.
0:45:37 It’s in the business of human connectivity.
0:45:40 Nintendo, we talked about, it’s a gaming company.
0:45:45 They define their business as, “We make people smile,” four words, right?
0:45:52 IKEA, furniture company, defines its business as creating a better everyday life, four words.
0:46:01 I’ll give you a B2B example, Sabik, which is a very large Middle Eastern chemical company.
0:46:07 They define their business as, “Chemistry that matters,” just three words, right?
0:46:10 And so here’s the reason why this is absolutely critical.
0:46:16 If you define your business very narrowly, and most companies do, that I am in the business
0:46:20 of providing a service or a product.
0:46:26 Then your entire focus and strategy and all your future possibilities are limited to that
0:46:29 space, and that’s usually a red ocean.
0:46:35 When you open that up and you ask the question, ultimately, what value do I bring to my target
0:46:36 audience, right?
0:46:39 To make myself relevant and indispensable.
0:46:42 Who doesn’t want to smile, right?
0:46:45 Who doesn’t want human connectivity, right?
0:46:49 Who doesn’t want a princess talking to them through a podcast, right?
0:46:55 That’s where you get really close and into this ongoing relationship with your target
0:46:56 audience.
0:47:01 It’s an incredibly powerful switch, and I can tell you, it’s the most difficult of all
0:47:04 the Slingshot Framework components.
0:47:11 It’s the most mind-opening and challenging of everything that I do with my partner companies
0:47:17 because people are just not used to thinking this way, but when they do, it opens up all
0:47:19 kinds of incredible possibilities.
0:47:20 Yeah.
0:47:24 I’m going to do an offsite with my executive students, and I think we’re going to use this
0:47:28 framework and go through this accordion chart and really try to think of our blue ocean
0:47:29 strategy as a company.
0:47:31 So I’m super excited for that.
0:47:32 Yeah.
0:47:33 Absolutely.
0:47:38 And let me tell you what my perfect answer is, right?
0:47:43 And it has to do with, it’s based on a quote by a former army psychologist called Dave
0:47:51 Grossman, who said that the human equation is to multiply joy and divide pain.
0:47:57 Joy shared is joy multiplied, pain shared is pain divided, right?
0:47:59 It’s a beautiful statement.
0:48:05 But based on that, what I say is that, and I challenge every company, every organization,
0:48:12 and take this to your offsite to say that ultimately you should think of yourself as
0:48:19 being in the business of multiplying joy and dividing pain for your target audience, forwards.
0:48:23 Multiply joy, divide pain, because that’s what people ultimately want in life.
0:48:27 And if you can make them think that that’s what you do for them, that’s a relationship
0:48:28 for life.
0:48:33 And if you can’t, if you can’t justify that you’re multiplying their joy, minimizing
0:48:38 their pain, and you’re sharing in that journey, like for your podcasts, a perfect way to actually
0:48:44 deliver on this, then you’re going to have difficulty staying relevant and even more
0:48:46 to be indispensable.
0:48:48 So there is my perfect answer.
0:48:49 That’s beautiful.
0:48:50 I love that.
0:48:55 So what kind of questions are we going to ask ourselves as we go through this accordion
0:48:56 chart process?
0:48:59 Like, what are the questions and things that you ask people to do in that book?
0:49:00 What can they expect?
0:49:01 Yeah.
0:49:07 And so let me also say that, because I think this is a very fair question for anybody to
0:49:11 ask is, I talk a big game, am I also a player, right?
0:49:13 Do I practice what I preach?
0:49:16 And to me, that has always been super important.
0:49:20 So everything that I do is, as you said, it started from my childhood, so I not only firmly
0:49:23 believe everything, but I practice it.
0:49:28 So with my book, Slingshot, how did I reimagine a business book or a leadership book?
0:49:31 Well, first of all, it’s all illustrated by children.
0:49:38 Secondly, it has original music so that every single chapter has its own, I think, really
0:49:45 wonderful music done by a very talented European electro band, right?
0:49:47 So you can immerse yourself in the experience.
0:49:49 You can listen as you read.
0:49:53 And thirdly, I purposely made the book only privately available.
0:49:59 So I was not obsessed with book sales or being on the top list, but rather to use my book
0:50:04 as a exclusive resource for the audiences that I work with.
0:50:09 And I’ll make the book available to your audiences, happy to do that.
0:50:15 But so the questions that I’m asking and people will ask themselves are kind of based on what
0:50:21 we already kind of revealed, like, in what way can you prove that you are once a child?
0:50:24 What evidence do you have that you are once a child?
0:50:27 That’s one question that I pose.
0:50:32 In what way do you stretch the definition of your business well beyond the industry that
0:50:34 you actually play in?
0:50:39 How do you defy conventional wisdom or what is your favorite example of defying conventional
0:50:44 wisdom from business or from your private life?
0:50:48 Or are you a customer of your own business, right?
0:50:52 All these things are, and the whole book is written in a way that it’s very playful and
0:50:56 very interactive as are all my sessions.
0:51:03 So it’s really all about this sort of continuous joint journey and self-exploration as you
0:51:06 go through the whole content.
0:51:07 I love that.
0:51:12 Okay, so just to make sure everybody is understanding this accordion chart process, which I think
0:51:15 is super, super impactful and helpful for all of our listeners.
0:51:16 Let’s take a real life example.
0:51:18 Let’s take a pizza shop.
0:51:22 Focus through how you would take them through this accordion chart process.
0:51:25 What are the questions that they would ask themselves or the things they would need to
0:51:26 consider?
0:51:27 Yeah, that’s great.
0:51:33 And by the way, the accordion chart is the only actual framework tool that has its own
0:51:35 chapter in my book, right?
0:51:40 So it’s, as I said, it’s the most mind-expanding and it’s the one that, therefore, that I thought
0:51:44 was important to actually talk about and walk through.
0:51:51 But the basic idea, let’s take a pizza shop, is to first ask the question, what is the
0:51:53 most narrow definition of your business?
0:52:02 And you may say, well, we are a local, originally branded pizza restaurant chain, okay?
0:52:04 Who are the players in that space?
0:52:06 How big is your market share?
0:52:08 How fast is it growing, right?
0:52:13 And most companies would know that right away because that’s their focus, the narrow space
0:52:14 that they play.
0:52:19 Then comes the disarming question, what is one larger definition of your space?
0:52:27 And that may be, well, not just locally branded fast food pizza, but all branded fast food
0:52:28 pizza, right?
0:52:30 So that’s not just regional, but national.
0:52:34 So now you’re pizza hot, hungry howie, everybody else comes in.
0:52:37 What is your market share in that space?
0:52:38 And who are the key competitors?
0:52:45 And immediately, you might have been the major player in the locally branded space, but now
0:52:49 you’re just a minor player in a larger space.
0:52:51 And then we keep going, what is one larger definition?
0:52:54 And you might say, well, just branded fast food.
0:52:56 So it’s no longer just about pizza.
0:53:02 Now you can have chicken, healthy choices, burger, everything else.
0:53:04 Then the question is, what is beyond that?
0:53:09 And now you say, well, anything that you eat out of the house.
0:53:16 So with every new level, we get further and further away from your core business.
0:53:21 So your comfort level goes down in terms of your knowledge, but your strategic insight
0:53:23 increase exponentially.
0:53:29 And we keep pushing this one level up to get at least to six levels.
0:53:35 And ultimately, that sixth level could be not just informal eating out, but entertainment
0:53:36 destination, right?
0:53:39 Because food is ultimately our pizza place.
0:53:43 You can argue it’s not just about food, but having fun.
0:53:48 And now you see that entire map from most narrow to most broad and every type of company
0:53:55 that you possibly could be competing against or could borrow some of their best attributes
0:53:57 to put into your business.
0:54:03 So it becomes this incredibly powerful one page visual exploration of strategic possibilities
0:54:11 across this large space that you or most people have never even kind of considered.
0:54:15 And that is what you call the blue ocean market, correct?
0:54:16 Right.
0:54:22 The further you go to the broader extreme, the blue where it is or bigger the blue.
0:54:28 So I called the start, the narrow part, that’s where you might find blue lakes, right?
0:54:30 Just optimizing what you’re doing.
0:54:34 As you start expanding, you’re getting into broader space.
0:54:37 The next stop is blue sea, right?
0:54:39 Because now you’re expanding what you’re doing.
0:54:43 And then the further you get to the other end, that’s when you get into the blue ocean.
0:54:44 That’s right.
0:54:45 Amazing.
0:54:46 Okay.
0:54:52 So this brings us to the fifth and last prong of your framework, the slingshot framework,
0:54:53 which is blue ocean strategy.
0:54:57 So you already told us about the three levels of blue waters.
0:55:00 Something I want you to expand upon is the concept of red ocean.
0:55:03 So that’s the antithesis of blue ocean.
0:55:04 Yeah.
0:55:07 So red ocean is exactly as you said.
0:55:12 So red ocean is that space which you don’t want to be in, right?
0:55:20 Which is about price based commodity like competition, where everybody accepts the same boundaries,
0:55:25 the same definitions of customers or market space of products, and you’re just trying
0:55:27 to out-compete one another.
0:55:35 A wonderful example is that there is a town in England where there was a one pound store,
0:55:36 right?
0:55:38 Like in the U.S., we have the dollar stores, right?
0:55:44 So everything in that store was one English pound, and it was in the center of this town.
0:55:48 One day across the street, a new store opened up.
0:55:53 And the name of that store was 99P, 99 pence.
0:56:01 So same as a 99 cent store in the U.S., so one cent, one penny less.
0:56:06 Within three months, the one pound store went out of business, right?
0:56:11 Because everybody went across the street, and there was no other factor of competition,
0:56:12 pure price.
0:56:17 And that’s the definition of a red ocean, where there is really no differentiation and
0:56:23 it’s a very dangerous space to be in for the reason that this little story or example
0:56:24 just demonstrated.
0:56:26 This was such an amazing conversation.
0:56:30 I always end my interviews with the same two questions, and then we do some fun stuff at
0:56:31 the end of the year with them.
0:56:35 So the first one is, what is one actionable thing my young and profiteers can do today
0:56:38 to be more profitable tomorrow?
0:56:46 The thing that I would say is that to realize that this is a really singular moment in time,
0:56:51 right, where the entire world, as we knew it two years ago, no longer exists.
0:56:56 So all of us have that choice to take and seize the power that we have to be one of
0:57:00 the future shapers or to wait for others to do it for us.
0:57:06 And as Paul Romer, who’s a Nobel Prize winning economist, said, “A crisis is a terrible
0:57:08 thing to waste.”
0:57:13 So what I would encourage all your fans and listeners is to seize the moment and don’t
0:57:15 waste this crisis.
0:57:18 Put yourself in position to be one of the future shapers.
0:57:19 Hmm.
0:57:20 I love that.
0:57:22 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
0:57:25 And so this can be profiting financially, professionally, personally.
0:57:26 Yeah.
0:57:31 And I mean, to me, the answer is easy, right, continuously reimagining boundaries, because
0:57:40 I think that’s at core my mantra, and I think that that does empower and enable us to do
0:57:46 all those things, to make the most impact, to live the most meaningful and enriched life
0:57:49 as well as to be financially successful.
0:57:52 So reimagining boundaries.
0:57:53 I love that.
0:57:54 What a great conversation.
0:57:57 I think this is going to be super helpful to everybody who tuned in.
0:58:00 Where can everyone learn more about you and everything that you do?
0:58:01 Yeah.
0:58:02 That’s a great question.
0:58:09 So I will, as I said, make my book available, so I will provide a link to its download and
0:58:12 preferential ways to do that.
0:58:16 But my website is the best way to reach me.
0:58:22 I do have a rather un-purposely low profile on social media, but my website and on LinkedIn
0:58:23 you can find me.
0:58:24 Amazing.
0:58:26 Thank you so much for your time.
0:58:29 I love this conversation, and I hope we get to collaborate again soon.
0:58:30 How about me too?
0:58:31 This was wonderful.
0:58:33 I love your questions, your energy, and everything that you do.
0:58:34 So this was great.
0:58:35 Bye.
0:58:36 Bye.
0:58:36 Bye.
0:58:37 Bye.
0:58:38 Bye.
0:58:39 Bye.
0:58:40 Bye.
0:58:41 Bye.
0:58:42 Bye.
0:58:43 Bye.
0:58:44 Bye.
0:58:46 Bye.
0:58:56 [BLANK_AUDIO]
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0:01:21 What’s up, YAP BAM?
0:01:23 Welcome back to the show.
0:01:27 So for this episode of YAP Classic, we’re replaying my interview with the disruptive
0:01:30 visionary Gabor George Burt.
0:01:34 He originally came on the show in May of 2022, episode 169.
0:01:39 Now, even though this episode was a couple years ago, I still remember it to this day
0:01:44 because I felt very inspired, very energized after the conversation with Gabor.
0:01:50 He’s a global authority on reimagining boundaries and one of the creators behind the Blue Ocean
0:01:55 strategy, which is this hugely influential leadership concept about capturing uncontested
0:01:57 market space.
0:02:02 In this episode, Gabor and I talk about his slingshot strategy, which employs creativity
0:02:07 and innovation to bring your business from the Red Sea, where there’s no true differentiation
0:02:12 between you and your competitors, to the Blue Ocean, where competition is irrelevant
0:02:14 and opportunity is endless.
0:02:18 If you’re eager to dominate your market niche, render your competition irrelevant and make
0:02:23 sure your customers are 100% infatuated with your brand, you’ve got to hear what Gabor
0:02:26 has to say in this conversation.
0:02:27 So let’s dive in.
0:02:30 Here’s my interview with Gabor George Burt.
0:02:34 I’m super excited for this topic.
0:02:36 I think my listeners are going to really enjoy it.
0:02:40 You’re a pioneer in business creativity and innovation, and I can’t wait to get into
0:02:44 the Blue Ocean strategy and the slingshot strategy, which is all about harnessing your
0:02:47 creativity in a more systematic way.
0:02:51 But first, I want to get to know you better and understand your childhood and how you
0:02:55 grew up and how that instilled curiosity in you later in life as an adult.
0:02:57 So you were born in Budapest, Hungary.
0:02:59 You moved to the US when you were just a child.
0:03:03 You were thrown into an entirely new environment without speaking a word of English.
0:03:07 So how did this cultural immersion impact who you are today?
0:03:09 Yeah, thank you for that question.
0:03:14 First of all, I’d like to point out that for a very brief moment in time, I was once the
0:03:22 youngest person on earth, and I reflect on that because it’s true for you and of course
0:03:23 everyone listening in.
0:03:28 But it’s kind of something that we never really think about, but it’s a powerful thing to
0:03:36 actually keep within us, because everything that I talk about and all the slingshot platform
0:03:42 is at its core, is reconnecting with our childhood essence and sense of curiosity and wonder and
0:03:43 creativity.
0:03:49 But yeah, as you said, I was born in Budapest and you were very generous when you said that
0:03:52 I moved at a young age because really I had no choice, right?
0:03:59 I was taken, so I was plucked out of the environment that I knew and thought was my world and taken
0:04:00 to a completely different one.
0:04:08 Yeah, I didn’t speak a word of English, completely different space, and that had a profound impact
0:04:11 on me as you can imagine as a child.
0:04:16 It gave me this sense of detached curiosity, a sense of questioning things.
0:04:22 Why does this work here differently than somewhere else where I came from?
0:04:29 And also set in motion this lifelong passion to travel and to experience new things.
0:04:33 So yeah, that’s where I think everything that I do today started from.
0:04:37 So something that’s funny is that a lot of the guests that come on my show, they’re
0:04:43 very, very great entrepreneurs, business strategists, and a lot of them studied psychology in college,
0:04:47 which is super interesting because most people who go through that past become a psychiatrist
0:04:49 or something along those lines.
0:04:52 So what does psychology teach you about business?
0:04:58 Well, it’s also a very rich observation that you’re making, that a lot of your guests have
0:05:00 that commonality.
0:05:06 I think for me, it was always this notion about just a deep interest on what really
0:05:08 motivates people.
0:05:12 Why do people behave and do things and think things that they do?
0:05:15 And that really was the origin of that, even without thinking about business.
0:05:21 But then when I got into my later studies and got into the field of economics and business,
0:05:26 I thought it was the most natural connection because ultimately every single business,
0:05:28 every single transaction is about people.
0:05:30 It’s about relationships.
0:05:36 So understanding what motivates people to buy, not to buy, to be attached to your brand
0:05:42 is really essential and it’s really at the heart of, I think, any successful business.
0:05:43 Yeah, 100%.
0:05:47 I always wish that I studied psychology for that exact same reason.
0:05:48 It’s super interesting.
0:05:53 So you were one of the first core experts behind a concept called blue ocean strategy.
0:05:55 Now before I even match you, I’ve heard of this.
0:05:56 I’ve heard of blue oceans.
0:05:57 I’ve heard of red oceans.
0:05:58 I got my MBA.
0:06:02 It’s something that is talked about in these kind of systems.
0:06:07 So let us know what blue ocean strategy is exactly at a high level.
0:06:08 Yeah, sure.
0:06:18 So blue ocean strategy is a concept that became popular about almost 20 years ago now, first
0:06:21 through a series of articles in the Harvard Business Review and then a book by the same
0:06:24 name, Blue Ocean Strategy.
0:06:30 And as the wonderful imagery suggests, it’s about strategy that allows you to create your
0:06:36 own market space where you separate yourself from the competition in such a profound way
0:06:42 that they become irrelevant, that you have a space to yourself and a mass of customers
0:06:45 who are attracted to your value proposition.
0:06:52 And in contrast, red oceans is where everybody accepts the same market conditions, the same
0:06:56 market boundaries, and they’re trying to out-compete one another over market share.
0:07:00 And it’s bloody, and it’s highly cutthroat and competitive.
0:07:03 So that’s the basic essence of blue ocean strategy.
0:07:04 Cool.
0:07:10 So I know that one of the core premises of blue ocean strategy is called value innovation.
0:07:16 And so that states that successful companies, they both use differentiation and lower cost
0:07:20 in order to create new demand and create blue ocean market space.
0:07:25 So this goes against traditional management views because previously people used to say
0:07:30 you either need to be highly differentiated or be a low cost provider, but not both.
0:07:31 So can you explain that to us?
0:07:38 Yeah, that’s kind of intersection of those two philosophies or those two actions is,
0:07:40 as you say, it’s not immediately obvious.
0:07:45 In fact, it’s counterintuitive, and that’s part of the power of blue ocean strategy.
0:07:48 So a really good example, perhaps, is Nintendo’s Wii.
0:07:56 So Nintendo’s Wii, before the Wii gaming industry, was by and large limited to 5% of
0:07:59 the population, anti-social teenage boys, right?
0:08:05 And everybody competed within that space, and that was the red ocean until Nintendo thought
0:08:11 about, well, wait a minute, there’s 95% of the population that never plays games.
0:08:12 Why?
0:08:16 And that why led to them then say, well, it’s because they don’t want to sit passively
0:08:18 in front of a screen.
0:08:21 So what could we do to attract them?
0:08:22 The Wii motion sensor.
0:08:29 And that was the combination of two traditionally separate entertainment forms, passive and
0:08:30 active entertainment.
0:08:36 And once they fused those together, then they broke barriers, and now they became relevant
0:08:39 to 95% of the population.
0:08:40 That’s the blue ocean.
0:08:46 And to answer your question, to see that duality, so they raised the value proposition, and that
0:08:54 is supported by the fact that for years, after the introduction of the Wii, the price online
0:08:58 and on Amazon was actually higher than if you could buy it new.
0:09:00 There was so much extra demand.
0:09:08 And it was lowering the actual cost because the Wii used off-the-shelf components.
0:09:14 So they didn’t use state-of-the-art technology, which their competitors, Sony and Microsoft
0:09:16 at the time, they went the other way.
0:09:20 They went very simple, and they made money on every one of their modules.
0:09:23 So what they got right is the value part.
0:09:28 That’s the value innovation, and they understood what they could let go, what they could eliminate
0:09:31 from cost, which was competing on technology.
0:09:33 So that’s the idea.
0:09:34 That’s super interesting.
0:09:37 Let’s talk about the slingshot strategy.
0:09:42 Your slingshot framework has five steps or five prongs, and I’d love for you to tell
0:09:47 us more about that, and how entrepreneurs can use this to eventually get to Blue Ocean
0:09:48 Strategy.
0:09:50 Yeah, that’s a great question.
0:09:56 So let me also add on that as a way of making the connection between the two clear.
0:10:03 So as I said, Blue Ocean Strategy is a wonderful, wonderful concept, and it has been extremely
0:10:04 well received.
0:10:14 So it has been translated into over four million copies in terms of books, and over 50 languages,
0:10:16 including Mongolian and Icelandic.
0:10:21 So it really has conquered the world.
0:10:28 But in my over 10 years of Blue Oceanography around the world, helping organizations understand
0:10:35 and apply the concept, what I discovered was that everybody loved the idea of Blue Ocean.
0:10:40 But it was very difficult for most organizations to actually put it in practice.
0:10:45 So there was a disconnect between aspiration and implementation.
0:10:49 And one of the key things was that everybody thought that Blue Ocean was about having to
0:10:54 do something completely new, that you have to abandon what you’ve done and what you’re
0:10:55 good at.
0:11:01 And so in Slingshot, what I talk about is three levels of Blue Waters.
0:11:07 First is Blue Lake, which is the most accessible, and that’s refreshing and optimizing what
0:11:08 you’re already doing.
0:11:12 The second is Blue Sea, which is expanding what you’re doing.
0:11:16 And the third is Blue Ocean, which is creating something new.
0:11:22 And when you frame it this way, then you can all of a sudden pursue innovation from very
0:11:26 small incremental, all the way to transformational.
0:11:28 You don’t have to sacrifice anything.
0:11:35 And you can start out with a Blue Lake, which opens up the floodgates to much bigger waters,
0:11:40 to a blue sea and blue ocean, as water naturally flows into bigger bodies.
0:11:42 So that’s one of the key premises.
0:11:49 And in terms of the five steps, the first thing I talk about is something I call a customer
0:11:51 infatuation.
0:12:01 And to me, that word infatuation is the perfect way to describe the customer relationship
0:12:07 that you want to have, because it’s the only word that has a strong emotional component,
0:12:12 but also a time component that it’s fleeting, that it’s temporary.
0:12:17 So understanding that anything you do for your customers has a cycle, that they will
0:12:22 react to it emotionally and really be excited by it at the beginning.
0:12:29 But as it transitions and becomes a new normal, their excitement level becomes less and less,
0:12:35 is fundamental to understanding that you have now the golden opportunity to continuously
0:12:36 renew your offering.
0:12:37 So that’s what I talk about.
0:12:43 And then the second is to expand what you do and think of it as lifestyle or work style
0:12:45 enrichment.
0:12:50 So you don’t just want to do something that is a functional advantage to your customer.
0:12:53 You want to put it in a larger context.
0:12:56 How does it benefit the way they live or they work?
0:13:01 The third is this idea of defying conventional wisdom so that you want to liberate, and this
0:13:07 is where creativity comes in, your ability to always ask the what if questions.
0:13:15 The fourth one is this idea of the accordion chart, which is the tool that I use to stretch
0:13:20 the definition of what you do, because the broader that you can define what you do, the
0:13:24 more possibilities you have to deliver on that to your customers.
0:13:31 So for example, Starbucks, the CEO of Starbucks didn’t define their business as coffee, but
0:13:34 as human connectivity.
0:13:37 And that’s a much richer business definition.
0:13:44 And the more that you can move into that broader space and show how you connect to these core
0:13:51 human values and desires, the stronger your company’s relationship and strategic possibilities
0:13:52 will be.
0:13:56 And then the last final step is creating blue oceans, right?
0:14:00 So now you have the engine to continuously make blue ocean strategy practical.
0:14:06 And so the last step is actually now putting that into strategy and implementing it.
0:14:08 So those are the five steps.
0:14:09 I love this.
0:14:12 Honestly, I feel like this is so helpful for any entrepreneur.
0:14:16 So I want to stick on the first step, infatuation integration.
0:14:22 And so one of the things is that you mentioned is that consumers are insatiable.
0:14:30 So they often need to be reconnected with or re-infatuated with so that you can keep continuing
0:14:31 to be successful as a business.
0:14:36 So talk to us about that, the fact that you need to keep kind of re-engaging your customers
0:14:38 and keeping them infatuated.
0:14:42 Yeah, and this is where this idea of psychology comes in, right?
0:14:47 So I’m so glad you asked about that up front, because this is ancient wisdom.
0:14:53 So the first noble truth of Buddhism says that satisfaction is not real or is that it’s
0:14:54 fleeting.
0:14:56 There’s no such thing, right?
0:15:02 Recently an Israeli psychologist came up with the concept of arrival fallacy, meaning
0:15:07 that we always think that just the next thing that we want, once we achieve that, once we
0:15:09 obtain that, then we’ll be happy.
0:15:15 But once we get there, we realize, no, now there’s the next thing that we want, right?
0:15:24 And so if that is true, and I can show that just by simply asking you or challenging our
0:15:30 listeners or anyone tuning in to think about what is your favorite thing right now, something
0:15:32 that you purchased, right?
0:15:37 It could be an object or it could be an experience, a service that you paid for.
0:15:39 What is your favorite thing?
0:15:42 And is it perfect just the way it is?
0:15:48 Or can you think very quickly of things that would make it even better, even more special,
0:15:53 more customized, more fun, more comfortable for you?
0:15:55 And most of the time, do you have your answer?
0:15:56 Because I would…
0:15:57 Sure.
0:16:01 My favorite thing that I purchased so far is a trampoline, a personal trampoline that
0:16:03 I have to work out on.
0:16:04 All right.
0:16:06 How long ago did you purchase that?
0:16:09 Like, let’s say six months ago.
0:16:10 All right.
0:16:11 Is it perfect as it is?
0:16:14 Is there nothing that you would change on it at this time?
0:16:15 It’s perfect.
0:16:16 It’s pretty perfect.
0:16:18 Ah, you see, there’s a shadow of a doubt.
0:16:20 You said pretty perfect.
0:16:22 Is it absolutely completely perfect?
0:16:23 Is there nothing you would change?
0:16:24 That’s my question.
0:16:26 Maybe I would make it a little bigger.
0:16:28 Ah, there it is.
0:16:35 So you see, what I talk about is once you buy something that really resonates with you,
0:16:42 like your trampoline, then for a period of time, you will be completely enchanted by
0:16:43 it.
0:16:47 You will be blind to its faults and just love everything about it.
0:16:50 And that’s what I call the infatuation interval, right?
0:16:56 But as you start to use it, and it becomes the standard, it becomes the normal, your
0:17:00 excitement level becomes less and less, and that’s when you start to notice what would
0:17:04 you want it to be different about it, right?
0:17:06 How could it be even better for you?
0:17:11 And you just started to say something, but what if it was a little bit bigger, right?
0:17:18 And as you transition in that cycle into what I call the entitlement period, your feeling
0:17:21 becomes that this is pretty good.
0:17:26 This is what I already have, but this is what I wish I had, right?
0:17:33 And some companies are really masters at actually creating that pull to tell you that you’re
0:17:36 now ready to get our newest product.
0:17:38 Great example is Apple, right?
0:17:44 These are expensive, our smartphones are expensive products, but every eight, 10 months, they
0:17:50 come out with a new version, and we feel that that is the one we need to have, and we start
0:17:52 disconnecting from our old one.
0:17:59 So that’s the whole idea of infatuation intervals, and the whole notion of infatuation is that
0:18:05 understanding the fact that satisfaction is not an obtainable concept.
0:18:09 There’s no such thing as a permanently and completely satisfied customer, and that’s
0:18:10 a good thing, right?
0:18:14 Because if there was, whoever got there first would have complete market share.
0:18:15 Game over.
0:18:23 No, what we have is a delighted and even better and infatuated customer who reacts really
0:18:29 strongly and positively to what we do for them because it resonates, but understand that
0:18:37 that will only last a fleeting cycle, and then they’re ready to receive our next innovation
0:18:43 so that we are in a continuous cycle of refreshing and innovating that relationship, and that’s
0:18:47 where creativity comes in as our fuel.
0:18:52 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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0:23:41 Okay, so I want to really dig deep on this because I think this is super interesting.
0:23:45 So entitlement period, like you said, that’s when consumers, they start to take notice.
0:23:49 They start to provide feedback about things that bother them about the product.
0:23:52 How can we actually use this customer feedback to fuel innovation?
0:23:53 Yeah.
0:23:59 I mean, it’s really interesting because one of the key principles, of course, of the
0:24:02 Slingshot framework is precisely this.
0:24:09 That what you want to do is continuously turn customer pain points and transform them into
0:24:11 points of infatuation.
0:24:16 So it’s not just removing something that bothers or frustrates our customer.
0:24:22 That’s a pain point, but to transform it into a point of delight and infatuation.
0:24:24 It’s incredibly powerful.
0:24:30 So my example from before about the week, the major pain point of 95% of the population
0:24:34 was that they didn’t want to sit passively in front of a screen.
0:24:36 What did Nintendo’s We Do?
0:24:43 It added and combined that experience with simulating sports, right?
0:24:47 And that created delight, joy, and infatuation, right?
0:24:48 People couldn’t get enough.
0:24:54 And every segment of the population from nursing homes to college campuses to cruise ships,
0:24:57 we’re playing a Nintendo We games, right?
0:25:04 And so it’s all about, your question is about how to use customer feedback.
0:25:11 Well, your customer’s journey with you is the ultimate playing field that you should
0:25:19 always be focused on to improve your business and to make sure that it continues to be relevant.
0:25:24 So put yourself in the position of your customer, continuously monitor them.
0:25:32 And once you identify a pain point or once you start to hear chatter like you mentioned,
0:25:37 your wish that your trampoline was a little bit bigger on social media.
0:25:42 Well, if I am the trampoline manufacturer, what I want to do is monitor social media
0:25:44 chatter about my products.
0:25:50 And if I pick that up and you’re one of the first adapters, then I want to incorporate
0:25:53 that into my next innovation, right?
0:26:01 So the idea is that you always want to monitor your customers because that is the ultimate
0:26:07 goal and mission of your business, right, is to continuously stay relevant.
0:26:10 And in fact, I say indispensable to your customers.
0:26:15 And Jeff Bezos famously said when asked, well, what business is Amazon and he said, well,
0:26:23 what we do is that we continuously seek out what do our customers need and want, right?
0:26:27 And whatever that is, we’re going to get good at providing that.
0:26:28 What an amazing answer.
0:26:33 It’s not what are our capabilities and how can we best use them?
0:26:34 No.
0:26:38 What we want to know is what do our customers, our target audience, what do they want?
0:26:39 What do they need?
0:26:43 And whatever that is, we will get good at providing that.
0:26:48 And that’s really what this is all about, is that you can always look at your customers
0:26:55 and create offerings that they’re excited about and that creates the cycles of infatuation.
0:26:59 And what you’re not saying is that we’re not creating the perfect product, right?
0:27:02 There’s no such thing as the perfect product.
0:27:07 And in Slingshot, you explore the idea of the dichotomy of perfection and personalization.
0:27:13 So talk to us about the relationship of perfection and personalization in regards to innovation.
0:27:14 Yeah.
0:27:16 That’s another great question.
0:27:23 So perfection is, we hinted at this earlier, is a fallacy, right?
0:27:24 It doesn’t exist.
0:27:27 And again, this is something that has ancient roots and cultures.
0:27:33 So the Japanese art form of Wabi Sabi is all about continuous state of imperfection.
0:27:37 And I also love the concept that life is a journey and not a destination, right?
0:27:44 So that we’re always in motion, we’re always moving, and that’s the fun part.
0:27:47 And that’s true in business too, right?
0:27:55 So perfection is not something that’s obtainable, and it’s a dangerous fallacy for any company
0:28:00 to think that it is, because it’s much more exciting to understand the fact that there
0:28:07 is no perfectly satisfied customer, and that gives us the license to continuously explore
0:28:12 and develop that relationship and give them new things and new experiences.
0:28:19 Now customization, on the other hand, is really a fascinating concept because it really creates
0:28:24 that deep relationship where in essence companies can outsource part of their work, right?
0:28:30 To say, you design it for yourself, and this has been really well used by companies like
0:28:37 Nike and Lego, where they allow their customers to basically create their own products.
0:28:41 It’s a wonderful concept, and it was also something that was key with Ikea, which started
0:28:45 the whole do-it-yourself furniture industry, right?
0:28:50 What a brilliant concept in the 1950s, so a long time ago, they said, well, what is one
0:28:52 of the big costs in our industry?
0:28:59 Well, it’s assembling furniture and then having to store and ship them in much larger containers.
0:29:04 And I said, well, what if we eliminated that, and that’s again value innovation, right?
0:29:11 We’re eliminating something, in this case giving people furniture that’s completely pre-assembled,
0:29:13 but we packaged it differently.
0:29:21 We say to our shoppers and consumers that we’re empowering you to put it together yourself,
0:29:22 do it yourself.
0:29:27 You’re building your own house or putting together your perfect apartment.
0:29:34 And it’s the same idea of customization now becomes part of the deeper relationship as
0:29:36 well as a way to value innovate.
0:29:41 And I think it also kind of relates to the customer feedback, because as you implement
0:29:46 that feedback, you’re personalizing that product for your consumers.
0:29:47 No doubt.
0:29:48 And that’s right.
0:29:53 So the perception from a customer’s viewpoint is exactly that, that, wow, this company is
0:29:58 not looking at me as one in millions, but I am special, right?
0:30:01 I am actually in a relationship with this company.
0:30:11 I can design whatever I want and do exactly as I want on this product or a service.
0:30:12 So it’s very powerful.
0:30:13 You’re right.
0:30:14 It’s a really good lever for that.
0:30:15 Okay.
0:30:18 So let’s move on to prong number two.
0:30:21 So like we discussed, we need to keep consumers infatuated.
0:30:25 And in order to do that, you need to remain continuously relevant to them.
0:30:29 So you call this lifestyle enrichment, and it’s all about staying relevant.
0:30:34 So how can business owners scan the horizon and shift course to stay relevant?
0:30:35 What are the things they can do?
0:30:41 Well, a part of the idea of relevancy is, and that’s a good segue, is what we already
0:30:48 started talking about, is you have to always monitor your customers, better yet, continuously
0:30:50 put yourself in their position.
0:30:52 So be a customer of your own business.
0:30:57 And that’s one of the first questions that I ask with organizations that I work with.
0:31:03 And I’m amazed how often leadership teams are so disconnected from their businesses
0:31:07 that they’re not customers of what they sell, right?
0:31:12 How could you then possibly understand how to lead this organization?
0:31:16 So that is one of the ways that, and it’s the best ways, the most fundamental ways
0:31:19 that you can stay relevant.
0:31:28 The other is to understand and look ahead to where the market and the world and technology
0:31:30 where everything is heading, right?
0:31:38 So one of the things I ask, I have a six-question test, and I always challenge my audiences to
0:31:43 say that, “I bet you, you won’t get more than two out of the six questions correct.”
0:31:51 Okay? And from the perspective of really forward-thinking, future-shaping, strategic thinking, and invariably
0:31:52 I win.
0:31:53 And they’re very basic questions.
0:31:57 And one of them is, who are your most important competitors, right?
0:32:03 And most people will think about it and think an answer with their direct competitors.
0:32:10 And what I say the correct answer is, is whatever is most in the hearts and the minds of your
0:32:12 target audience, right?
0:32:13 What are they thinking about?
0:32:15 What are they obsessed with?
0:32:16 Because that’s where you want to play.
0:32:22 So right now, in the wake of COVID, a lot of people, what they’re obsessed with is work-like
0:32:29 balance, safety, security, lifelong learning, a new world order, all these kind of things.
0:32:31 It’s a perfect time to ask that question.
0:32:35 And in order to stay relevant, you want to provide that answer.
0:32:39 You want to provide the solution to whatever they’re most obsessed about.
0:32:44 Because if you can do that and you come to mind when they’re thinking, well, lifelong
0:32:52 learning, work-life balance, safety, and community harmony, all these things, and you come to
0:32:55 their mind, that’s a relationship.
0:33:00 And then you’re not only just relevant, but again, beyond that, you become indispensable
0:33:01 to them, right?
0:33:03 They can’t live without you.
0:33:05 And that’s really where you want to be.
0:33:07 Is that indispensability?
0:33:14 So I’d love to understand what kids and their imagination can teach us about lifestyle enrichment.
0:33:22 I had several occasions where I was with leadership teams of very successful companies, and I give
0:33:27 them a creativity exercise, one that I do is called the Imagination Kids Challenge.
0:33:32 And it’s about a random collection of everyday objects, and the challenge is to create the
0:33:36 most fun game that you can out of just these objects.
0:33:42 And invariably, and these could be the most serious, older, very successful executives,
0:33:48 invariably, within seconds, everybody reverts to childhood playing and sense of discovery.
0:33:50 It’s a beautiful thing.
0:33:55 But on several occasions, I invited children to be the judges, right?
0:34:03 And so they become the ones that grade and rank the solutions that these very highly
0:34:05 successful adults have come up with.
0:34:07 So it’s a complete role reversal.
0:34:13 And what kids do is they have this wonderful, disarming way of just cutting to the chase
0:34:20 and asking the most disarming questions that you cannot hide behind industry expertise
0:34:22 or jargon.
0:34:25 I don’t understand why this is a good product.
0:34:29 I don’t understand why this would be fun, right?
0:34:32 Or how would this really work, any of these questions?
0:34:37 And it’s that sort of insight that if we can reconnect with that, and that’s why I always
0:34:43 encourage people who have children to interact with their children and learn from them, play
0:34:48 with them, and have them ask questions about what you’re doing as an adult.
0:34:56 Then you have this power of simplification and understanding things that we as adults
0:34:58 often overcomplicate.
0:35:05 And that’s the power of that childhood sense of creativity and the curiosity.
0:35:09 I think this is a great segue to talk about the third prong, which is defying conventional
0:35:10 wisdom.
0:35:14 So what do you think are the most important things we need to know about that one?
0:35:21 Well, with that is really this notion that we have this ability to always ask the what-if
0:35:22 questions.
0:35:28 And by not doing that, but just simply accepting things as they are, we’re doing ourselves
0:35:34 a disservice because we’re not utilizing this great resource and the quality and ability
0:35:35 that we have.
0:35:41 And we are not going to be able to fully take advantage of situations that life presents
0:35:43 us, right?
0:35:47 Because that ability is ours for the taking.
0:35:56 So the idea of defying conventional wisdom is really that reminder that why not take
0:35:58 advantage of it.
0:36:03 And there’s a wonderful quote, one of my all-time favorites by Muhammad Ali, who had this
0:36:07 fascination with the word impossible.
0:36:14 And he said that impossible is just a big word thrown around by little people who’d
0:36:21 rather live in a world that they have been given than to explore the power they have
0:36:24 to change it.
0:36:26 Impossible is not a fact.
0:36:27 It’s an opinion.
0:36:29 It’s a there, right?
0:36:34 And that’s exactly the point, is that let’s all take that there.
0:36:35 We have that choice.
0:36:41 We either accept everything as they are and just say, I don’t want to change anything
0:36:48 or to really harness the power we all have to make a difference, to be part of the future
0:36:49 shapers, right?
0:36:50 And that’s the whole idea.
0:36:54 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
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0:41:14 Something really fun that I found in your book was a test that you call the opossum test.
0:41:19 Can you talk to us about how an opossum represents the ideal business and how businesses can
0:41:23 become more like opossums or opossums?
0:41:26 Sure, and that is also one of the other six questions.
0:41:33 I just mentioned my six-question test, which is what animal would you pick to be the perfect
0:41:35 symbol of your business, right?
0:41:42 So what is an animal that you think in your mind gives an image of the perfect qualities
0:41:45 a business should possess?
0:41:52 And a lot of people gravitate towards strong animals like a lion or a eagle, right?
0:41:53 Why?
0:41:59 Because immediately your knee-jerk response is that business is war, and therefore you
0:42:03 want to be at the top of the food chain, it’s a survival of the fittest.
0:42:08 And to me, that’s the fallacy, that’s the trap, because business is not war.
0:42:13 Business is about adaptability, it’s about future-shaping, developing relationships that
0:42:15 are indispensable.
0:42:19 And so to me, one of my favorite animals as a response to that is the opossum.
0:42:20 Why?
0:42:25 Because for most animals in the animal kingdom, when they’re faced with danger, they have
0:42:28 two types of responses, fight or flight, right?
0:42:32 So either they’re capable to defend themselves or they’re fast enough to run away.
0:42:38 But the opossum doesn’t accept that wisdom, so it defines conventional wisdom by having
0:42:45 a very unconventional strategy, which is taking a nap, right, pretending that it is not alive.
0:42:51 And when the danger passes because the predator has no interest in eating a seemingly dead
0:42:56 carcass, the opossum gets up and goes along its way.
0:42:59 So the point is that it’s defying conventional wisdom.
0:43:06 I argue that in contrast to other animals who spend most of their time getting ready
0:43:10 and being prepared to fight or flight, it doesn’t have to invest anything along those
0:43:11 lines.
0:43:14 It can live a very happy, content life.
0:43:21 But then I also argue that this defense is only as good as other animals don’t start
0:43:23 to mimic it.
0:43:29 Because if every prey starts to mysteriously drop dead in front of a predator, pretty soon
0:43:32 they would start getting pretty suspicious, right?
0:43:37 So you need to continuously innovate, and that’s the point I make to companies, that
0:43:38 are you an opossum?
0:43:45 So do you have an unconventional strategy that allows you to actually do more with less?
0:43:50 And are you continuously innovating so that you’re not banking on a past innovation for
0:43:51 your future success?
0:43:53 That’s the idea.
0:43:55 I love that little story.
0:43:57 So let’s talk about the accordion chart.
0:43:58 This is prong number four.
0:44:02 It lets you zoom in and out of your offerings utility definitions.
0:44:06 So I thought this was super interesting because you basically are saying you need to come
0:44:10 up with the broadest definition possible for utility, for your offerings.
0:44:14 So why is that super important to have a broad definition as opposed to a narrow or niche
0:44:17 definition of your utility of your product?
0:44:18 Yeah.
0:44:20 And let me ask you, Hala, how do you define your business?
0:44:23 So what business are you, and I’m sitting next to you?
0:44:24 I have many businesses.
0:44:26 All right, that’s interesting.
0:44:29 So then let’s answer it this way.
0:44:30 Keep that in mind.
0:44:33 Let’s say that I’m sitting next to you at a dinner party, right?
0:44:35 And I’m really interested to talk with you.
0:44:36 I don’t know you at all.
0:44:39 So I turn to you and I say, “So what do you do?
0:44:40 What business are you in?”
0:44:42 And so what would you answer me?
0:44:44 What would be your immediate answer to that?
0:44:47 I’d say, “Hi, I’m Hala.
0:44:50 I’m the host of a number one podcast called The Young and Profiting.
0:44:55 I also have a social media and podcast agency, and I just launched a podcast network.”
0:44:56 Wow.
0:44:57 That’s a beautiful answer.
0:45:01 Now, if I asked you to limit that to four words, what would those four words be?
0:45:04 I am the podcast princess.
0:45:05 That is brilliant.
0:45:06 I love that.
0:45:09 And now here’s why, and here’s the connection.
0:45:14 So the accordion chart, and that’s why I named it that, because yeah, it’s like an accordion.
0:45:17 You can stretch the definition of your business, but it’s not a one-way stretch.
0:45:19 You can also contrast it, right?
0:45:26 So that, yeah, you want to define your business from most narrow to the most broad space possible,
0:45:30 but then decide where’s the ultimate between the two extremes that you need to play.
0:45:34 I already mentioned Starbucks, that it’s not in the coffee business.
0:45:37 It’s in the business of human connectivity.
0:45:40 Nintendo, we talked about, it’s a gaming company.
0:45:45 They define their business as, “We make people smile,” four words, right?
0:45:52 IKEA, furniture company, defines its business as creating a better everyday life, four words.
0:46:01 I’ll give you a B2B example, Sabik, which is a very large Middle Eastern chemical company.
0:46:07 They define their business as, “Chemistry that matters,” just three words, right?
0:46:10 And so here’s the reason why this is absolutely critical.
0:46:16 If you define your business very narrowly, and most companies do, that I am in the business
0:46:20 of providing a service or a product.
0:46:26 Then your entire focus and strategy and all your future possibilities are limited to that
0:46:29 space, and that’s usually a red ocean.
0:46:35 When you open that up and you ask the question, ultimately, what value do I bring to my target
0:46:36 audience, right?
0:46:39 To make myself relevant and indispensable.
0:46:42 Who doesn’t want to smile, right?
0:46:45 Who doesn’t want human connectivity, right?
0:46:49 Who doesn’t want a princess talking to them through a podcast, right?
0:46:55 That’s where you get really close and into this ongoing relationship with your target
0:46:56 audience.
0:47:01 It’s an incredibly powerful switch, and I can tell you, it’s the most difficult of all
0:47:04 the Slingshot Framework components.
0:47:11 It’s the most mind-opening and challenging of everything that I do with my partner companies
0:47:17 because people are just not used to thinking this way, but when they do, it opens up all
0:47:19 kinds of incredible possibilities.
0:47:20 Yeah.
0:47:24 I’m going to do an offsite with my executive students, and I think we’re going to use this
0:47:28 framework and go through this accordion chart and really try to think of our blue ocean
0:47:29 strategy as a company.
0:47:31 So I’m super excited for that.
0:47:32 Yeah.
0:47:33 Absolutely.
0:47:38 And let me tell you what my perfect answer is, right?
0:47:43 And it has to do with, it’s based on a quote by a former army psychologist called Dave
0:47:51 Grossman, who said that the human equation is to multiply joy and divide pain.
0:47:57 Joy shared is joy multiplied, pain shared is pain divided, right?
0:47:59 It’s a beautiful statement.
0:48:05 But based on that, what I say is that, and I challenge every company, every organization,
0:48:12 and take this to your offsite to say that ultimately you should think of yourself as
0:48:19 being in the business of multiplying joy and dividing pain for your target audience, forwards.
0:48:23 Multiply joy, divide pain, because that’s what people ultimately want in life.
0:48:27 And if you can make them think that that’s what you do for them, that’s a relationship
0:48:28 for life.
0:48:33 And if you can’t, if you can’t justify that you’re multiplying their joy, minimizing
0:48:38 their pain, and you’re sharing in that journey, like for your podcasts, a perfect way to actually
0:48:44 deliver on this, then you’re going to have difficulty staying relevant and even more
0:48:46 to be indispensable.
0:48:48 So there is my perfect answer.
0:48:49 That’s beautiful.
0:48:50 I love that.
0:48:55 So what kind of questions are we going to ask ourselves as we go through this accordion
0:48:56 chart process?
0:48:59 Like, what are the questions and things that you ask people to do in that book?
0:49:00 What can they expect?
0:49:01 Yeah.
0:49:07 And so let me also say that, because I think this is a very fair question for anybody to
0:49:11 ask is, I talk a big game, am I also a player, right?
0:49:13 Do I practice what I preach?
0:49:16 And to me, that has always been super important.
0:49:20 So everything that I do is, as you said, it started from my childhood, so I not only firmly
0:49:23 believe everything, but I practice it.
0:49:28 So with my book, Slingshot, how did I reimagine a business book or a leadership book?
0:49:31 Well, first of all, it’s all illustrated by children.
0:49:38 Secondly, it has original music so that every single chapter has its own, I think, really
0:49:45 wonderful music done by a very talented European electro band, right?
0:49:47 So you can immerse yourself in the experience.
0:49:49 You can listen as you read.
0:49:53 And thirdly, I purposely made the book only privately available.
0:49:59 So I was not obsessed with book sales or being on the top list, but rather to use my book
0:50:04 as a exclusive resource for the audiences that I work with.
0:50:09 And I’ll make the book available to your audiences, happy to do that.
0:50:15 But so the questions that I’m asking and people will ask themselves are kind of based on what
0:50:21 we already kind of revealed, like, in what way can you prove that you are once a child?
0:50:24 What evidence do you have that you are once a child?
0:50:27 That’s one question that I pose.
0:50:32 In what way do you stretch the definition of your business well beyond the industry that
0:50:34 you actually play in?
0:50:39 How do you defy conventional wisdom or what is your favorite example of defying conventional
0:50:44 wisdom from business or from your private life?
0:50:48 Or are you a customer of your own business, right?
0:50:52 All these things are, and the whole book is written in a way that it’s very playful and
0:50:56 very interactive as are all my sessions.
0:51:03 So it’s really all about this sort of continuous joint journey and self-exploration as you
0:51:06 go through the whole content.
0:51:07 I love that.
0:51:12 Okay, so just to make sure everybody is understanding this accordion chart process, which I think
0:51:15 is super, super impactful and helpful for all of our listeners.
0:51:16 Let’s take a real life example.
0:51:18 Let’s take a pizza shop.
0:51:22 Focus through how you would take them through this accordion chart process.
0:51:25 What are the questions that they would ask themselves or the things they would need to
0:51:26 consider?
0:51:27 Yeah, that’s great.
0:51:33 And by the way, the accordion chart is the only actual framework tool that has its own
0:51:35 chapter in my book, right?
0:51:40 So it’s, as I said, it’s the most mind-expanding and it’s the one that, therefore, that I thought
0:51:44 was important to actually talk about and walk through.
0:51:51 But the basic idea, let’s take a pizza shop, is to first ask the question, what is the
0:51:53 most narrow definition of your business?
0:52:02 And you may say, well, we are a local, originally branded pizza restaurant chain, okay?
0:52:04 Who are the players in that space?
0:52:06 How big is your market share?
0:52:08 How fast is it growing, right?
0:52:13 And most companies would know that right away because that’s their focus, the narrow space
0:52:14 that they play.
0:52:19 Then comes the disarming question, what is one larger definition of your space?
0:52:27 And that may be, well, not just locally branded fast food pizza, but all branded fast food
0:52:28 pizza, right?
0:52:30 So that’s not just regional, but national.
0:52:34 So now you’re pizza hot, hungry howie, everybody else comes in.
0:52:37 What is your market share in that space?
0:52:38 And who are the key competitors?
0:52:45 And immediately, you might have been the major player in the locally branded space, but now
0:52:49 you’re just a minor player in a larger space.
0:52:51 And then we keep going, what is one larger definition?
0:52:54 And you might say, well, just branded fast food.
0:52:56 So it’s no longer just about pizza.
0:53:02 Now you can have chicken, healthy choices, burger, everything else.
0:53:04 Then the question is, what is beyond that?
0:53:09 And now you say, well, anything that you eat out of the house.
0:53:16 So with every new level, we get further and further away from your core business.
0:53:21 So your comfort level goes down in terms of your knowledge, but your strategic insight
0:53:23 increase exponentially.
0:53:29 And we keep pushing this one level up to get at least to six levels.
0:53:35 And ultimately, that sixth level could be not just informal eating out, but entertainment
0:53:36 destination, right?
0:53:39 Because food is ultimately our pizza place.
0:53:43 You can argue it’s not just about food, but having fun.
0:53:48 And now you see that entire map from most narrow to most broad and every type of company
0:53:55 that you possibly could be competing against or could borrow some of their best attributes
0:53:57 to put into your business.
0:54:03 So it becomes this incredibly powerful one page visual exploration of strategic possibilities
0:54:11 across this large space that you or most people have never even kind of considered.
0:54:15 And that is what you call the blue ocean market, correct?
0:54:16 Right.
0:54:22 The further you go to the broader extreme, the blue where it is or bigger the blue.
0:54:28 So I called the start, the narrow part, that’s where you might find blue lakes, right?
0:54:30 Just optimizing what you’re doing.
0:54:34 As you start expanding, you’re getting into broader space.
0:54:37 The next stop is blue sea, right?
0:54:39 Because now you’re expanding what you’re doing.
0:54:43 And then the further you get to the other end, that’s when you get into the blue ocean.
0:54:44 That’s right.
0:54:45 Amazing.
0:54:46 Okay.
0:54:52 So this brings us to the fifth and last prong of your framework, the slingshot framework,
0:54:53 which is blue ocean strategy.
0:54:57 So you already told us about the three levels of blue waters.
0:55:00 Something I want you to expand upon is the concept of red ocean.
0:55:03 So that’s the antithesis of blue ocean.
0:55:04 Yeah.
0:55:07 So red ocean is exactly as you said.
0:55:12 So red ocean is that space which you don’t want to be in, right?
0:55:20 Which is about price based commodity like competition, where everybody accepts the same boundaries,
0:55:25 the same definitions of customers or market space of products, and you’re just trying
0:55:27 to out-compete one another.
0:55:35 A wonderful example is that there is a town in England where there was a one pound store,
0:55:36 right?
0:55:38 Like in the U.S., we have the dollar stores, right?
0:55:44 So everything in that store was one English pound, and it was in the center of this town.
0:55:48 One day across the street, a new store opened up.
0:55:53 And the name of that store was 99P, 99 pence.
0:56:01 So same as a 99 cent store in the U.S., so one cent, one penny less.
0:56:06 Within three months, the one pound store went out of business, right?
0:56:11 Because everybody went across the street, and there was no other factor of competition,
0:56:12 pure price.
0:56:17 And that’s the definition of a red ocean, where there is really no differentiation and
0:56:23 it’s a very dangerous space to be in for the reason that this little story or example
0:56:24 just demonstrated.
0:56:26 This was such an amazing conversation.
0:56:30 I always end my interviews with the same two questions, and then we do some fun stuff at
0:56:31 the end of the year with them.
0:56:35 So the first one is, what is one actionable thing my young and profiteers can do today
0:56:38 to be more profitable tomorrow?
0:56:46 The thing that I would say is that to realize that this is a really singular moment in time,
0:56:51 right, where the entire world, as we knew it two years ago, no longer exists.
0:56:56 So all of us have that choice to take and seize the power that we have to be one of
0:57:00 the future shapers or to wait for others to do it for us.
0:57:06 And as Paul Romer, who’s a Nobel Prize winning economist, said, “A crisis is a terrible
0:57:08 thing to waste.”
0:57:13 So what I would encourage all your fans and listeners is to seize the moment and don’t
0:57:15 waste this crisis.
0:57:18 Put yourself in position to be one of the future shapers.
0:57:19 Hmm.
0:57:20 I love that.
0:57:22 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
0:57:25 And so this can be profiting financially, professionally, personally.
0:57:26 Yeah.
0:57:31 And I mean, to me, the answer is easy, right, continuously reimagining boundaries, because
0:57:40 I think that’s at core my mantra, and I think that that does empower and enable us to do
0:57:46 all those things, to make the most impact, to live the most meaningful and enriched life
0:57:49 as well as to be financially successful.
0:57:52 So reimagining boundaries.
0:57:53 I love that.
0:57:54 What a great conversation.
0:57:57 I think this is going to be super helpful to everybody who tuned in.
0:58:00 Where can everyone learn more about you and everything that you do?
0:58:01 Yeah.
0:58:02 That’s a great question.
0:58:09 So I will, as I said, make my book available, so I will provide a link to its download and
0:58:12 preferential ways to do that.
0:58:16 But my website is the best way to reach me.
0:58:22 I do have a rather un-purposely low profile on social media, but my website and on LinkedIn
0:58:23 you can find me.
0:58:24 Amazing.
0:58:26 Thank you so much for your time.
0:58:29 I love this conversation, and I hope we get to collaborate again soon.
0:58:30 How about me too?
0:58:31 This was wonderful.
0:58:33 I love your questions, your energy, and everything that you do.
0:58:34 So this was great.
0:58:35 Bye.
0:58:36 Bye.
0:58:36 Bye.
0:58:37 Bye.
0:58:38 Bye.
0:58:39 Bye.
0:58:40 Bye.
0:58:41 Bye.
0:58:42 Bye.
0:58:43 Bye.
0:58:44 Bye.
0:58:46 Bye.
0:58:56 [BLANK_AUDIO]
Gabor George Burt, a top expert on the influential Blue Ocean Strategy, found that many organizations struggled to put it into practice. The thought of having to create something entirely new was simply too overwhelming. To help make innovation more easily attainable for these businesses, Gabor developed the Slingshot Framework, which provides manageable, incremental steps for growth. In this episode, Gabor breaks down the five prongs of the slingshot framework and shares the behavioral principles and strategies that keep customers infatuated.
Gabor George Burt is the author of Slingshot and a top expert on the influential business leadership approach, Blue Ocean Strategy. He has been featured in top business publications such as Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Entrepreneur Magazine.
In this episode, Hala and Gabor will discuss:
– Why innovation feels overwhelming
– The link between psychology and business
– The power of the Blue Ocean Strategy
– Turning pain points into excitement
– 5 prongs of the slingshot framework
– The myth of a perfect product
– How to keep consumers infatuated
– Using feedback to fuel innovation
– The power of customization
– How to stay relevant in business
– The “arrival fallacy” in customer satisfaction
– Why your business should emulate the opossum
– Expanding markets with a broader vision
– And other topics…
Gabor George Burt is the author of Slingshot and one of the top experts on the influential business leadership approach, Blue Ocean Strategy. He also contributed case study material to the worldwide bestselling book of the same name, Blue Ocean Strategy. Gabor is actively involved in shaping strategy for international clients, including top multinationals, governments, start-ups, and NGOs. He has been featured in top business publications, including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Entrepreneur Magazine. He is often a featured speaker at high-profile events, including the World Marketing Forum, the First Arab Innovation Summit, and the Forum for Partnership of the Americas, among others.
Connect with Gabor:
Gabor’s Website: https://gaborgeorgeburt.com/
Gabor’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabor-george-burt/
Gabor’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gaborgeorgeburt/
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Resources Mentioned:
YAP listeners get special access to Gabor’s book, Slingshot. Use the coupon code ‘SPECIAL’, to enjoy a 20% discount: https://gaborgeorgeburt.com/get-the-book
Blue Ocean Strategy by W. Chan Kim and Renee Mauborgne: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Ocean-Strategy-Uncontested-Competition/dp/1591396190
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