You’re not awkward — the world is.

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0:01:59 Thanksgiving is the Super Bowl of awkward. You love these people, mostly, but the scripts are fuzzy.
0:02:06 Do we hug? Do we talk politics? What the hell do I say after the third,
0:02:13 so how’s work? It’s a tricky situation. We’ve all been there. But here’s the good news.
0:02:21 Awkwardness isn’t a you problem. And it’s not a personality flaw. It’s what happens when our
0:02:27 social scripts break down. In other words, it’s an us problem.
0:02:33 I’m Sean Elling, and this is The Gray Area.
0:02:49 Today’s episode is a conversation with Alexandra Placius, philosopher and author of Awkwardness,
0:02:58 A Theory. The episode, which is from last winter, has become a team favorite because Placius challenges us
0:03:05 to rethink a common experience that we all dread. She has a lot of great insights to share and a
0:03:11 helpful reminder that it’s not your fault when you feel awkward. Something that’s worth keeping
0:03:15 in mind as we plunge into those family gatherings this holiday season.
0:03:23 Alexandra Placius, welcome to the show.
0:03:25 Thanks so much for having me.
0:03:31 You have an interesting philosophical background. I mean, you study moral psychology and
0:03:39 the cultural foundations of values and that sort of thing. How did you end up writing a book about
0:03:47 awkwardness? So, I think first, as a philosopher, anytime you come across a topic that it seems
0:03:52 not that many people have written about, there’s always a little bit of a thrill there. But really,
0:04:00 I think I was interested in awkwardness because as a moral philosopher, I’m often spending my time
0:04:06 talking to students about life or death dilemmas, whether to pull the switch on the trolley so it hits
0:04:12 one person instead of five. But hopefully, most of my students will never actually be in that
0:04:18 situation. On the other hand, there are all of these daily moments of discomfort and awkwardness and
0:04:23 things like that that philosophers don’t often talk that much about. And there’s almost a sense that
0:04:29 we shouldn’t really care too much about that. We should be above that. We should be living the life
0:04:33 of the mind. But we live in a social world, and those social issues matter to us. So, I think I was
0:04:38 attracted to the idea of digging a little deeper into the kinds of everyday interactions that we will
0:04:42 encounter in our lives and how we navigate them and why they matter.
0:04:54 And yet there is a good bit of serious philosophical work on topics like anxiety, depression, loneliness,
0:05:00 those sorts of things. But very little, as far as I can tell, on awkwardness. Do you have any theories
0:05:01 on why that is?
0:05:08 I think the main reason is that awkwardness has typically been assimilated to discussions of
0:05:12 embarrassment and shame, to the extent that it’s really discussed at all. Even there,
0:05:18 it gets surprisingly little attention. So, the scholar William Miller has a book on humiliation.
0:05:24 And if you look at his index, he’s got more entries for axe murder than he does for awkwardness. So,
0:05:29 awkwardness, yeah, you’re right. It gets surprisingly little attention, even as philosophers have turned
0:05:33 their attention to particular emotions and particular negative emotions.
0:05:45 Well, let’s get into it. Awkwardness is normally defined as a personal problem or a personality
0:05:51 trait. Or sometimes, as you just said, it’s basically a synonym for embarrassment. And these
0:05:58 are all understandings that you challenge. So, tell me how you define awkwardness. And maybe just as
0:06:01 importantly, tell me what you think it isn’t.
0:06:07 Right. So, starting with what it isn’t, I don’t think awkwardness is a personal problem. I don’t
0:06:11 think awkwardness is a personal trait. One of the things I was surprised by in writing this book is
0:06:19 how quickly people were willing to tell me, I’m really awkward, or, oh, I’m so excited to read your
0:06:24 book as a very awkward person. It’s something that a lot of people are willing and even eager to
0:06:28 self-identify with. But I actually think that’s a mistake. I don’t think people are awkward. I think
0:06:34 situations are awkward. On my view, awkwardness is something that happens in a situation when we lack
0:06:40 the social resources we need to guide us through it. And so, interactions become awkward when we’re
0:06:46 uncertain what kind of interaction we’re in, what our role in that interaction is, what the other person’s
0:06:52 role is, when we’re unable to coordinate on a social script to get us through it. So, in that sense,
0:07:00 awkwardness is not a personal problem. It’s an us problem. But surely, some people are more or less
0:07:06 awkward than others, right? Even if it’s generally true that there are no awkward people, only awkward
0:07:11 situations. So, I think there’s an interesting ambiguity when we describe people as awkward between
0:07:18 meaning that person feels awkward or they make me feel awkward. So, if I say, like, Sean is awkward at
0:07:24 parties, I might mean Sean makes me feel awkward when he’s at parties, or I might mean Sean feels awkward
0:07:30 at parties. I do think that you’re right. Some people read social cues differently, and some people
0:07:35 might have a difficult time triangulating on the kind of social cues that most of us rely on every day.
0:07:41 Some people also just give social cues differently, right? So, some people might be less inclined to
0:07:46 make eye contact. Or if you’ve ever tried to have a conversation with someone whose conversational
0:07:51 timing is just a little off and you’re not sure when you’re supposed to break in, right? Is that a
0:07:57 pause that’s an invitation? Is it a pause that’s a hesitation? That can feel really awkward, right?
0:08:04 But that feeling of awkwardness doesn’t necessarily tell us something about that person’s character. It
0:08:10 might just mean that we need to adjust our own social cues. Or it might mean that we’re in a kind of
0:08:13 situation for which we really haven’t figured out the social norms yet.
0:08:22 Even if it’s true that maybe some people have more difficulties navigating social interactions than
0:08:30 others, you still think it’s the case, right, that labeling them awkward obscures more than it reveals.
0:08:37 That’s right. I think labeling people as awkward is unhelpful, both in terms of the reason I just
0:08:44 mentioned that there’s that ambiguity there about where the awkwardness is. I think also it obscures
0:08:49 what’s interesting about awkwardness, which is the way it can highlight gaps in our social scripts,
0:08:55 in our social norms, in our social resources. So, if I just blame you for the awkwardness that arises at
0:09:01 the party, I might be missing an opportunity to reflect on my own behavior or on the norms governing
0:09:06 our social interaction. One of the things I talk about in the book is the way that labeling someone
0:09:14 awkward can also intersect with our social scripts around gender and power and privilege in such a way
0:09:19 that when an interaction becomes uncomfortable, labeling one person as awkward is often a way to offload
0:09:21 responsibility for that discomfort.
0:09:28 When I think of awkwardness, or at least when I thought of it before reading your book, and your book
0:09:35 basically did persuade me to think of it differently, when I thought of awkwardness, I would think
0:09:42 immediately of fear, you know, fear of interacting with other people. But that implies a kind of
0:09:49 misanthropy, right? So, like, if you’re awkward, that means you must just not like people and get weirdly
0:09:56 uncomfortable around them. But you really think that’s not only not true, but it is, it’s actually
0:09:57 harmful, right?
0:10:03 I hadn’t really thought about the intersection between awkwardness and fear, per se. I do think
0:10:07 there’s an intersection between awkwardness and anxiety and social anxiety in particular. And I think
0:10:13 one reason people sometimes label themselves as awkward, there’s some research suggesting that this
0:10:19 is a strategy to manage social anxiety, almost a way of saying, don’t expect too much from me in the social
0:10:25 domain, I’m a very awkward person. But I think what’s interesting is that in other cases, people who we
0:10:32 would tend to perceive as awkward may not experience their own behavior in kind of a negative way, or may
0:10:37 not experience these social interactions in a negative way, right? It may be that the social cues they’re giving
0:10:42 off make us feel awkward, but they’re not having any kind of negative experience. I do think we fear
0:10:47 awkwardness a lot. I think that we are surprisingly afraid of awkwardness. And another reason I was
0:10:53 interested in studying it was because I was interested in the ways that awkwardness or the fear of awkwardness
0:11:01 inhibits us from engaging in certain kinds of conversations and criticism of others and examinations of
0:11:06 our own behavior. And I think there are a lot of cases where we should act, we know we should act,
0:11:12 and we don’t because we’re afraid of making things awkward. After the Me Too movement, there was an
0:11:17 interview with men about sexual harassment in the workplace. And you would find men saying things like,
0:11:23 well, I knew my co-worker’s behavior wasn’t okay. And I knew I should say something, but I was afraid of
0:11:29 making things awkward if I spoke up. And on the one hand, that’s really puzzling. Like this is,
0:11:34 your co-workers are engaging in sexual harassment. That’s not okay. You know that. That’s a moral
0:11:44 obligation to speak up and do something. Why would you let something as seemingly minor as some social
0:11:49 discomfort inhibit you from speaking up? But I think awkwardness exerts a really powerful force on us.
0:11:56 Yeah, I’ll bracket the question of when you’re in situations where there’s an obvious power imbalance,
0:12:03 but just in general, the fear part. I mean, for me, awkwardness, at least a lot of it is about this
0:12:11 experience of uncertainty, which is a panic-inducing thing for a lot of people. And I’ll count myself
0:12:17 among them. I mean, maybe panic is a strong word, but I’ve never been super comfortable with uncertainty.
0:12:25 And to the extent I’ve never really presented as awkward in social settings. I think it’s mostly
0:12:30 because I’m pretty good at performing in that way. But that discomfort is there all the time,
0:12:36 right underneath the mask. What is it about uncertainty in social settings that’s so
0:12:42 unnerving, even when the stakes are low? Like, what the hell are we afraid of, really?
0:12:47 That’s such a great point. And I think that one of the things awkwardness can highlight for us is
0:12:53 first, how reliant we are on everyday social cues to get through things. I think that we often don’t
0:12:58 notice the kind of social scaffolding that goes into our interactions because it’s just mostly there,
0:13:04 right? But when it’s absent, all of a sudden, it is like the floor is pulled out from under us.
0:13:08 And we have that, you know, almost that moment where you go off a cliff and your legs are circling in
0:13:14 the air. And it is this feeling of panic. And I think part of that is we seem to have an expectation
0:13:20 that socializing should be effortless, that the ability to move through the world and social
0:13:24 interactions and present yourself in public is something everyone just kind of knows how to do
0:13:31 without instruction and that your ability to do it is really a measure of you as a person. But when you
0:13:36 think about it, that’s kind of puzzling. Like we have all of these various roles we inhabit throughout
0:13:43 the day. We are put into new situations all the time. We’re meeting new people. That’s hard. That’s
0:13:50 complicated, right? And so I think part of why I think it’s a mistake to think about awkwardness as
0:13:57 an individual problem is that it’s okay to need help navigating social interactions. It’s okay not to
0:14:01 know how to behave in a social setting. And I think once we move past that expectation that this is
0:14:07 something everyone should know, we might stop fearing uncertainty so much because that uncertainty no
0:14:13 longer threatens to unmask us, right? It’s okay not to know how to behave at this kind of party. It’s
0:14:18 okay not to know what to call your professor on the first day of class. You can just ask. And I think
0:14:25 the more we admit that sometimes socializing is hard and it’s okay to be uncertain, then maybe the less
0:14:26 threatening that uncertainty will seem.
0:14:33 I have never heard it put this way, but I do like thinking of awkwardness as a form of
0:14:40 disorientation. I mean, I like this idea that the essence of awkwardness is really just being lost
0:14:47 in a situation. I’ve just never heard it framed that way. But once you start seeing it through that lens,
0:14:49 it does change the way you think about it.
0:14:55 Right. And I think this is another part of the kind of shift from thinking about it as an individual
0:15:01 issue is when we see it as a navigation failure, we might be less likely to blame ourselves for it.
0:15:05 And we might be more likely to think about, well, what can we do next time to avoid that awkward
0:15:08 situation? What do we need in our navigational resources?
0:15:14 I think we both used the word embarrassment a few minutes ago. But another word that often gets
0:15:20 mixed up with awkwardness is cringe. And you write that our awkward moments are not
0:15:25 cringeworthy. So what is the difference between awkward and cringey?
0:15:34 So I think there’s cringe in the sense that people use it now sort of online. I think cringe in the
0:15:40 sense of like that cringing feeling you have, cringing is retrospective. It’s what happens when you look
0:15:46 back on something. And I know we all probably have those moments. Some of them are just decades old
0:15:52 where all it takes is like one second of thinking about it before you’re literally like curling into
0:15:57 a ball just wanting to like shrink inside yourself. That’s cringing. And cringing comes when we look
0:16:03 back on moments of awkwardness often or moments of shame or moments of embarrassment. And I think that
0:16:08 the reason we associate cringing and awkwardness is because we think about our awkward moments as
0:16:14 something shameful. We think about them as something we should be ashamed of or embarrassed about. But notice
0:16:20 that the cringing is a different response. It’s a kind of after-the-fact response to awkwardness. But it’s
0:16:25 different from the awkwardness itself. When you are in the middle of awkwardness, you’re not really, you’re
0:16:29 almost frozen, right? You’re not cringing. You’re not really doing anything. It’s only when you kind of like
0:16:34 stop and reflect and notice the awkwardness later, that’s when the cringe kicks in.
0:16:43 Why do you think some people are just more sensitive to or attuned to that lack of a social script and
0:16:49 other people just seem to not notice it as much or maybe not even care as much and therefore
0:16:54 maybe they don’t experience that awkwardness in the way the other person does?
0:17:00 Right. That’s a great question. I think that it’s tempting to envy those people who don’t
0:17:06 feel awkward about things. But it’s also helpful to remember that part of the reason we feel awkward
0:17:12 is because we care about being attuned to other people. We care about being in sync with other
0:17:17 people and we care about other people’s responses to us. And so in that sense, awkwardness is,
0:17:23 I think, related to empathy, related to all of our pro-social characteristics. I think it can go too
0:17:29 far in the sense of self-consciousness and self-monitoring. And I think that there are moments
0:17:36 where we don’t feel awkward because we’re just so in the flow that those moments where you kind of lose
0:17:40 yourself in an interaction or an activity and you don’t have time to feel self-conscious. You don’t have
0:17:45 time to think about what you’re doing. As far as individual differences in feeling awkward,
0:17:51 I definitely think that’s true. And I think that part of it is probably a personality trait kind of
0:17:57 thing. I think there may be people who genuinely don’t feel awkward at all ever. And I am a little
0:18:02 afraid of those people. And I think those people worry me maybe a little bit. But I think there are also
0:18:08 people who could probably do with feeling a little bit less awkward. And I think some of that has to do
0:18:15 with how we see ourselves as responsible for other people’s comfort and how we are assigned
0:18:21 responsibility for other people’s comfort by social norms around gender and privilege and things like
0:18:21 that.
0:18:27 So you’re saying if somebody doesn’t feel awkwardness ever, they’re either the coolest person in the
0:18:29 history of the world or complete sociopath?
0:18:37 I guess I had in mind more the latter. But it could be the former. I do think that we can
0:18:42 probably think of people, probably everyone can think of someone who just has that kind of charisma
0:18:48 and who doesn’t seem to feel ill at ease and who also seems to be able to put others at ease. And I
0:18:52 think that question of charisma is a really interesting one. And that’s something that I would love to look
0:18:58 more into in the future. I think some of it is like a kind of social confidence and a kind of social
0:19:04 grace. Throughout different cultures and history, people have always admired that performance of
0:19:11 effortlessness, right? And I think that’s supposed to be the mark of social status and confidence is just
0:19:15 having that kind of social capital and being able to seem at ease in any situation.
0:19:24 Do we have a good sense of whether or not more and more people are self-identifying as awkward? Are the trend
0:19:33 lines clear in either direction here? Because my guess would be that digital technology in particular is
0:19:39 making more people think of themselves as awkward because we don’t socialize in real life as often as we used to.
0:19:45 And so when we do have to actually go out into the world with other people, we’re less comfortable, less
0:19:50 certain of what to do. And I imagine that would increase the experience of awkwardness.
0:19:56 Yeah, that’s an interesting question. And I don’t have data for you on that. I can say that
0:20:02 one of the things I found when I was researching the book, there’s a lot of like articles online and
0:20:08 media coverage suggesting like, oh, we live in this golden age of awkwardness, or we live in really
0:20:13 awkward times. But you can find articles going back like 100 years saying the same thing. And there was,
0:20:21 I found, I came across a Life magazine letter that began telling the story of an encounter in like a
0:20:26 restaurant. They were saying, we live in awkward times. And I was in a tea shop and the waiter or
0:20:30 the server went over to a customer and said, excuse me, sir. I mean, madam. I mean, sir. I mean, madam.
0:20:36 And this observation that like, oh, we live in really awkward times. You’re not sure which pronoun to
0:20:41 use for someone. It just feels so contemporary. And so in some sense, I think that as long as social
0:20:46 norms have been in flux, and there’s been room for uncertainty about what social norms were in play,
0:20:48 there’s room for awkwardness.
0:20:56 What do you think of the most frequently awkward experiences that people have in their everyday lives?
0:21:03 So if you ask people this, one of the most common awkward experiences people cite is clogging up
0:21:10 someone’s toilet when you’re a guest in their house. Accidentally sending a message to the group
0:21:16 chat that is about someone in the group chat. So being kind of outed as gossiping about a group chat
0:21:22 member in that very chat, those are what people will say if you ask them, what are the most awkward
0:21:23 experiences you can imagine?
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0:25:42 I’ve got a question for you. Sure. As a resident awkwardness expert. So I’m a podcaster. I talk
0:25:53 into the mic for a living. But I hate the sound of my own voice. And when I listen to my recordings
0:26:01 alone, I don’t like it. I think it’s terrible. I want to turn it off. But it’s not awkward because I’m
0:26:09 alone. But if I’m in the car with my family, and they turn my pod on, or if I walk into a room and
0:26:17 someone is listening to my show, it’s awkward. Because now it’s a social situation. Now I’m worried about
0:26:24 how I’m being seen by others. But is this actually a case of awkwardness, as you understand it? Is there
0:26:33 lack of a lack of a social script here? Or am I just being neurotic and embarrassed? But that’s not quite
0:26:35 the same thing as awkwardness?
0:26:42 Well, the bad news is you can be neurotic, embarrassed, and awkward all at the same time.
0:26:42 Sweet.
0:26:50 So yeah, I think that there is some awkwardness there in that we may not always be great at knowing
0:26:56 how to act when our own voice is being played in front of other people. So there might be a little
0:27:01 bit of self-consciousness there and a little bit of uncertainty about, like, yeah, how to act and what
0:27:06 we’re supposed to do or say or acknowledge or not acknowledge. So one thing I’ve realized since the
0:27:13 book came out is I’m really awkward when people congratulate me on the book or say, you know,
0:27:20 oh, I saw your book on such and such, and I just don’t know what to say or do. And I start to feel
0:27:26 really awkward and the interaction becomes awkward. And I think that’s just a matter of feeling maybe a
0:27:32 little uncomfortable with our own standing or status in those interactions. Like, what’s my role here?
0:27:36 What am I supposed to do? You know, a lot of people can just say thanks and stop, and that’s it.
0:27:41 You might find yourself making a joke to deflect your own embarrassment or awkwardness in those
0:27:45 situations. And I think humor is a tool that we turn to a lot.
0:27:51 Oh, no, my move is just to preemptively shit on myself before anyone else can do it. And it kind
0:27:52 of neutralizes.
0:27:58 Well, that works too. And notice like that, I’m not saying that’s the best move. I’m not necessarily
0:28:03 recommending it, but it does work. And I think one thing it does is it gives you a go-to move and then
0:28:09 it gives someone else like a next line, right? Which is like, no, no, you sound great. Or no,
0:28:14 I love the episode. So it kind of helps everyone out by setting the tone. Like, this is going to be a
0:28:19 self-deprecating interaction. And now your role is to reassure me that I’m not shit, right?
0:28:27 Why is saying goodbye at parties so damn awkward? That can’t be just for me, right? I mean, that has
0:28:31 to be a pretty frequently cited awkward experience. Yeah?
0:28:36 You know, a formative childhood experience was waiting for my parents to say goodbye at parties
0:28:41 to like 20 million people. So I just leave. So I can’t really tell you for sure.
0:28:46 If I could solve that one. Yeah, I’m just a quick wave to the room and I’m out.
0:28:53 That’s the old Irish goodbye. I mean, that’s probably… See, if I was cooler, I would do that.
0:28:58 Because the problem, you know, you have those moments where you’re saying bye to someone and
0:29:05 again, I’m someone, I have a lot of self-chatter, self-talk, right? So you’re saying bye
0:29:09 and you’re thinking, wait a minute, are we, are we shaking hands here? Are we going to hug it out?
0:29:15 Are we fist bumping? We’re just going to do a calm, cool nod. Is saying goodbye even necessary at all?
0:29:22 And it’s awkward because you don’t know what’s in the script here and you don’t want to guess wrong
0:29:25 because then you, then you are embarrassed and it’s awkward.
0:29:30 Yeah. I mean, there’s, you know, a classic awkward moment is like, I go in for the hug,
0:29:34 the other person’s looking for a handshake and it can get, that’s so awkward.
0:29:39 But I think also we’re identifying part of your problem here, which is not just you,
0:29:43 but a lot of people have this kind of inner monologue that involves second guessing and
0:29:49 kind of monitoring the interaction in real time. And that is not helpful. You know, if you think of
0:29:54 something like playing piano or dancing, right, when you’re in that flow state, you’re not thinking
0:29:58 about like, oh, are my toes in the right place? Where are my fingers going next? You’re just doing it.
0:30:03 You’re just executing, right? And this goes back to that idea of effortless socializing. It might sound
0:30:08 way that socializing is a kind of flow state, but I think we’ve all had those moments where you have a
0:30:12 really good hangout or you have a great conversation and it just goes and you’re not thinking about it.
0:30:17 You’re not self-monitoring. You’re just in it. And I think the minute we start second guessing stuff,
0:30:23 it’s not even that we don’t know the script, but it’s like in that moment, we create that doubt
0:30:28 that leads us to be unable to just land on one and execute it.
0:30:33 Why is silence so awkward?
0:30:40 Silence becomes awkward when we don’t know how to interpret it. And I think that some silences
0:30:47 can be quite clear. Sometimes we know what a silence is doing and there’s companionable silences,
0:30:51 right? Where we’re not worried about what the other person is thinking. That’s a moment,
0:30:57 right? That’s a milestone in a relationship, the companionable silence. But silence can be open to
0:31:00 ambiguity and that can create awkwardness.
0:31:02 Small talk.
0:31:03 Oof.
0:31:11 Whether it’s like, you know, at a party or you’re just, I don’t know, pushing the grocery cart through a
0:31:16 produce aisle and you like bump into someone you haven’t seen in a while. Someone, maybe it’s an old
0:31:21 friend, maybe it’s someone who’s a friend of a friend. You don’t really know what to say under no
0:31:27 other circumstances would you even talk to them, really. You’re probably not in each other’s life for
0:31:31 reason. Why are those sorts of interactions so painfully awkward?
0:31:39 Yeah, I think it depends. I don’t think they have to be. I think, you know, my husband is British and I
0:31:43 think there’s like kind of a running joke that British people talk about the weather a lot. But
0:31:48 notice the weather is a great go-to small talk topic. And I think what that shows is that often
0:31:54 the role of small talk is not to actually exchange like a lot of meaningful information. It’s just to kind
0:32:00 of do a quick social check-in, give a little FaceTime to the other person, and then you move on.
0:32:05 Well, this is probably half the value of following sports. That’s another one.
0:32:09 If you don’t, if you have no idea what else to say, just fuck, man, you see the Dodgers game? I mean,
0:32:12 it’s like, it’s always there. You can pull that card out.
0:32:17 And it cuts across so many other differences, right? And I mean, even if someone roots for a rival team,
0:32:21 right, you can give them a little bit of a hard time and tease them a little bit and it’s fine.
0:32:29 Think about small talk. It may not even be exactly that it’s awkward, at least in my experience,
0:32:38 though it can be. But if it’s not awkward, it’s most definitely boring, which is one of the reasons
0:32:45 I always, even when I lived in DC, I just, I’m not into the whole cocktail circuit thing. I just don’t
0:32:52 like it. Do you think that’s because when you’re doing small talk in those settings,
0:32:58 you’re not deviating from the script, actually? Like it’s almost meant to alleviate awkwardness
0:33:03 and therefore we stick very closely to a script.
0:33:09 I think another reason small talk can become awkward is that without realizing it,
0:33:13 we are depending on all kinds of social cues from our partner, whether it’s eye contact,
0:33:21 timing of conversational pauses, even the distance someone stands from us, where they’re looking.
0:33:25 Are they looking at us? Are they looking over our shoulder? We’ve all had that experience. So
0:33:32 small talk can go off the rails, even while the topic is, stays perfectly normal and consistent and
0:33:36 boring. We can find the interaction awkward, maybe even for reasons that we’re not aware of,
0:33:41 or couldn’t articulate or couldn’t pinpoint. But yes, I also agree that small talk, if it goes
0:33:45 perfectly well, can be boring, right? And that brings up another interesting point, which is like,
0:33:49 well, what are the alternatives to awkwardness sometimes, right? Is it better to try to introduce
0:33:56 a new topic? Is it better to try to do something a little different? Or is it better to play it safe,
0:33:58 avoid awkwardness and just be bored?
0:34:06 One thing your book really emphasizes, which I like, even if it’s not the main point,
0:34:15 is how much of social life really is a performance, which isn’t to say that everything we do with other
0:34:21 people is phony, but it is a kind of dance, isn’t it? And because we can’t control everything,
0:34:28 and because we don’t know what’s going on in other people’s minds, it’s fraught with all kinds of
0:34:35 hazards. Yes, absolutely. I think that’s right. And I think that, you know, again, that there’s this
0:34:41 tendency or I think temptation to blame ourselves when interactions go off the rails. But you know,
0:34:46 the expression, it takes two to tango is apt here, right? We’re dependent on a partner also to give us
0:34:51 cues. And I think, you know, we have to also be mindful of the cues we’re giving out to others. So
0:34:56 the idea of a performance, I really like the point you made there that it’s not to say it’s insincere
0:35:05 or phony, but it is that we are executing a kind of performance. And some of that is up to us. And
0:35:12 some of it is based on the roles that other people make available to us and that, you know, our day-to-day
0:35:13 life makes available to us.
0:35:20 There’s the social cues part of it. And then there’s experiences when you deviate one way or
0:35:26 the other from what’s expected. You know, I may have talked about this on the show before, but
0:35:34 back in 2018, I went on this reporting trip to Costa Rica and I did a lot of psychedelics over the course
0:35:40 of a week. I even wrote about it for Vox and you can find it on the interwebs if you’re so inclined,
0:35:44 but I bring it up because reading your book, it made me think a lot about that.
0:35:53 And that led for me to a very interesting social experiment. I would say probably for at least six
0:36:01 months or so after that experience, I was easily the most present I’ve ever been in my life because it
0:36:08 just wasn’t in my head really at all like I normally am. So I was very attuned to the moment and the people
0:36:16 around me. And during this time, without thinking about it at all, I was really, and I mean, really
0:36:23 making eye contact with people. Like if I was talking to you or if you were talking to me,
0:36:28 I was listening. I mean, really listening. And I was looking you right in the eyes the whole time.
0:36:35 And after a while I started to realize how much awkwardness this created because people aren’t
0:36:41 accustomed to that. We’re not really present with each other in that way. We’re distracted.
0:36:50 We often perform listening, but we’re mostly in our little bubbles colliding as minimally as
0:36:58 possible as we move through our mostly private lives. And what I was doing unselfconsciously was
0:37:04 rupturing that social pattern a little bit, breaking from the script. And it was awkward. And after a
0:37:11 while, I guess I just fell back into the default routine and got back on the script. And it’s less
0:37:17 awkward for sure. But it was an instructive experiment for me. And reflecting back on it now,
0:37:20 that’s a lot clearer.
0:37:27 I mean, I kind of love this. This is kind of hilarious. And to me, it’s this idea that you’re
0:37:33 walking around being really present and listening and doing all these things that are great and that
0:37:38 we want to do. And yet simultaneously just making other people super uncomfortable with the level of
0:37:41 eye contact, right? That they’re feeling like, this is really awkward.
0:37:43 It was a little much. Yeah.
0:37:50 I think this point about eye contact is interesting because we are so sensitive to differences in eye
0:37:55 contact. And it’s also something that’s culturally variable. What amount of gaze time is appropriate?
0:38:02 What it means? What it might mean coming from a man? What it might mean coming from a woman in
0:38:07 different situations? And I think we also can adjust pretty well without making a conscious effort to,
0:38:10 right? I think some of us might have to like consciously remind ourselves,
0:38:15 look in the eyes, right? Look at that person, make eye contact. Sometimes people talk about
0:38:19 telling their kids that too. When you meet someone, shake their hand and look at them in the eye,
0:38:25 right? So we can consciously adjust it. But it is, again, something that I think we negotiate with
0:38:28 others tacitly without intending to.
0:38:37 What do you think is the biggest price we pay for our fear of awkwardness? What doesn’t happen in the
0:38:43 world that we should want to happen because we’re so desperate to avoid awkward situations?
0:38:50 So, I think there’s a lot of opportunities for human connection and comfort that are lost.
0:38:59 One case I think about a lot is grief and that we are—let me preface this by saying I’m always mindful
0:39:04 that when I draw these generalizations, everybody’s experience of awkwardness is different. And I think
0:39:10 as a philosopher, I’m trained to make pronouncements like, you know, big generalizations,
0:39:14 universal principles. I think one thing that’s challenging about awkwardness is everyone’s
0:39:21 experience is different. There’s so many ways for things to be and go awkward. But I do think that
0:39:27 we tend to be awkward around grief and talking about grief and loss. And I think that comes to mind
0:39:33 particularly because that’s a time when people are really hurting and can really use connection and
0:39:39 comfort. And I think that a lot of times people are hesitant to reach out because they don’t know
0:39:46 what to say. I think that there was a time when if everybody belonged to the same religious group,
0:39:52 we would have highly scripted rituals around grief and mourning. And I think that as we’ve gotten more
0:39:58 choice in our religious or spiritual practices, which is a good thing, one of the side effects of that has
0:40:04 been a kind of loss of sense of how we should respond to or talk about death and loss and grief.
0:40:10 So that’s one case that comes to mind. Maybe a less emotionally fraught one, although still pretty
0:40:17 big, is money. You know, there’s been a lot written about the salary gap and inequities in pay. And I
0:40:22 think that’s partly a consequence of the fact that we don’t really necessarily know how to talk about
0:40:28 money or there’s all kinds of weird social norms about discussing money. And that can contribute to
0:40:35 conditions and ignorance and allow inequalities to persist. So those are two cases. I think we can,
0:40:41 you know, there’s probably other topics that come to mind. People have recently started talking about
0:40:46 menopause and the way that the experience of menopause affects people. And that that’s something
0:40:54 that we’ve had a lot of social kind of silence around to the point where when people start to
0:40:59 experience it, they may kind of be perplexed by their own experience and not be sure how to talk
0:41:06 about it with others. I do think in a lot of these cases, the ability to talk about things online has
0:41:12 really helped and has allowed people to figure out how they want to talk about things in advance of in
0:41:17 person face-to-face social interactions. And I think that that is one way in which the internet can
0:41:22 make life less awkward is by allowing us to try this out and figure out what we think
0:41:26 in advance of going into those in-person, potentially awkward interactions.
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0:44:21 For me, it’s almost the tragic little paradox of awkwardness that, you know, it’s only possible
0:44:28 because we’re social creatures and we want to belong. We want to be accepted. So we’re constantly
0:44:37 trying to conform. But it’s precisely because of this fear of not being accepted that we’re often not
0:44:43 present. We’re not authentically open to real connection because we’re too busy trying to
0:44:52 perform our roles or perform the social script, whatever we think it is. But I don’t know. Do you
0:44:55 think I’m overthinking this?
0:45:02 No, I think that’s exactly right. I think that awkwardness, yeah, it’s a sign of how much we care
0:45:08 about coordinating with other people as a way of making ourselves, it’s the vulnerability that,
0:45:13 you know, accompanies our movement through the social world. And I think that is a little bit sad,
0:45:18 but I think also if we can just own up to it and recognize that it’s something that we share with
0:45:24 others and maybe be willing to make ourselves vulnerable, maybe then we can start to evade some
0:45:30 of that, that paradox that you allude to. I do think also that one thing we can do is be mindful
0:45:38 of, you know, if we think of awkwardness as bound up with all of these dynamics of power and privilege
0:45:44 and who gets to be awkward and who gets to get away with being awkward, I think we can also try to bear
0:45:49 some of that awkwardness for others who might be less able to put themselves out there and be vulnerable
0:45:54 like that. Anytime you’re talking about social dynamics, there’s always this background element
0:46:01 of power, who has it, who doesn’t, and how that colors an interaction. When there is a clear power
0:46:09 and balance between people, who’s responsible for alleviating the awkwardness? Who should be
0:46:13 responsible? Or is anyone really responsible for that?
0:46:18 I mean, I really like that you went from who should, who is responsible to who should be
0:46:23 responsible because I think that’s a distinction we don’t often make. And I think without realizing it,
0:46:30 sometimes we have certain expectations. I think women often feel responsible for other people’s
0:46:35 emotional comfort. And I think there’s an expectation that women will kind of manage emotions
0:46:41 in a way that doesn’t attach to men. So I think that can make it doubly hard. And if you think about
0:46:46 some of the issues that tend to become awkward when we’re discussing them. So throughout the podcast,
0:46:53 I’ve alluded to like sexual harassment, talking about menopause or reproduction, salary gaps,
0:46:58 things like this. These do tend to be things that affect women. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that
0:47:05 women tend to be assigned responsibility for alleviating awkwardness and therefore might be more
0:47:13 afraid of making things awkward, of not seeming to raise uncomfortable topics. So I think that one thing
0:47:20 we can do sort of collectively is to be aware going into situations of where we might have more
0:47:25 privilege and more power and then take it on ourselves to alleviate the awkwardness. If we’re worried that
0:47:31 a certain social norm or script is unclear, we could just make it explicit, right? I am a college
0:47:36 professor and people sometimes talk about this kind of hidden curriculum that a lot of our students come
0:47:41 in knowing what office hours are, knowing how to email a professor, knowing exactly what’s expected
0:47:46 in terms of behavior in class and note-taking and things like this. But some students don’t. And they
0:47:52 might feel really awkward in certain situations. And if we just take that minute and make things explicit
0:47:58 and say, when you’re emailing a professor, here’s a good way to go about it. Or here’s what office hours
0:48:03 are. And here’s what you should expect when you come to office hours. We can just make things less
0:48:08 awkward for those people. It might feel weird to us to do that because it’s not something we’ve ever
0:48:14 explicitly articulated. But it might, you know, in taking on that little bit of weirdness for ourselves,
0:48:17 we might make things significantly less awkward for someone else.
0:48:28 I like that you point out what a weird, and now this is my language, obnoxious flex it is when you have
0:48:36 powerful people. You know, it is a very particular kind of flex by very powerful people to not
0:48:41 care about creating awkwardness because they’re always the most powerful person in the room.
0:48:46 so they don’t have to give a shit about conforming to social norms.
0:48:54 So, you know, Mark Zuckerberg can walk into the room and do his whatever his thing is now. He seems
0:48:59 to have undergone quite a bit of brand management here in the last couple of years. But you know what
0:49:02 I’m talking about, right? I mean, that that is a very particular kind of flex by a person
0:49:08 who knows they’re sort of above it all in that way and not accountable. So they can create awkwardness
0:49:15 without really worrying about it because they have more power than everyone else they’re interacting
0:49:15 with.
0:49:20 Absolutely. I think that’s absolutely right. And I think there’s really two issues there. One is this
0:49:25 ability to kind of use awkwardness as a social flex that’s available to some people and not others.
0:49:31 So if you contrast someone like Mark Zuckerberg to someone like a female CEO, and the one who comes
0:49:37 to mind is Elizabeth Holmes, obviously had some other issues in addition to her presentation. But,
0:49:43 you know, she was widely pilloried for her kind of self-presentation and her awkwardness in a way that
0:49:50 you just don’t see male CEOs getting called out the same way or losing credibility in terms of
0:49:54 presentation for being awkward. But there’s a second point you mentioned, which is accountability.
0:49:59 And I think that we do see awkwardness being used to evade accountability. And I think this
0:50:04 happens both in business and in academia where there’s this sense of like, well, that person’s
0:50:10 just so awkward. You can’t expect them to adhere to these kinds of norms or, oh, they didn’t mean
0:50:14 anything by it. They’re just really awkward. We have to, you know, we can’t hold them to the same
0:50:21 standards as others where, you know, other people’s social discomfort seems suddenly not to matter as
0:50:27 much. And we let people get away with behavior that is really sometimes deeply problematic in the name of
0:50:28 awkwardness.
0:50:37 If you’re right, and I think you are, that awkwardness is a social property. So individuals
0:50:44 aren’t responsible for creating it for the most part, and it will always be a part of life with other
0:50:49 people. But if you are someone listening to this, and you’d like to decrease the amount of
0:50:54 awkwardness in your life as much as possible, or at least change your relationship to awkwardness so
0:50:58 that it’s less taxing. What’s your advice?
0:51:03 So first, can I just say, I do think people can create awkwardness. And I think sometimes that can
0:51:07 be very strategic for good or evil, right? Sometimes we can use awkwardness to draw attention to an
0:51:12 interaction that we find problematic. So an example I use in the book is like, if you’re,
0:51:17 you know, some graduate students are going to dinner with a professor who makes a really sexist,
0:51:22 gross joke, you know, one strategy might be to just call him out. But if no one feels comfortable
0:51:27 doing that, you can just let an awkward silence sit there and just not laugh, not respond, not say
0:51:32 anything. And that awkwardness kind of really draws attention, I think, to the joke not landing.
0:51:37 And so it can be a way of saying something where you don’t actually have the power to say it.
0:51:41 So I do think we can create awkward situations, sometimes strategically for good.
0:51:47 But to go to your question, so if you want to decrease the awkward situations in your life,
0:51:51 I think there are a few things we can do when we feel an awkward situation looming.
0:51:57 One is to think about the interaction itself and what our goals are for that interaction. Like,
0:52:03 what kind of interaction do we want this to be? So say we’re worried about politics coming up during
0:52:07 the holiday dinner and it’s going to get awkward. One thing we might think about is, well, if we have to
0:52:12 have a conversation about politics, what’s the most important thing to us? Like, what is our goal for
0:52:18 that interaction? Do we want to feel heard? Do we want to convince the other person? Do we want to
0:52:22 make them feel comfortable? Do we want to make a third party who’s listening feel comfortable? And that
0:52:29 can help us figure out what script should guide us through the interaction. I think another thing we can do
0:52:35 is admit uncertainty and ask for help where we can. So if we’re going into a situation we really don’t
0:52:39 know, right? Like, what kind of party is this going to be? How many people are going to be there? What
0:52:45 should I wear? It’s okay to ask these things. And I think that if you’re someone who is, say, hosting a
0:52:50 party and you think it’s going to be really ambiguous, you can tell people, right? Hey, I’m having some
0:52:55 people over. There’ll probably be about 30 people there, right? Let people know in advance what to
0:53:01 expect. And as I said before, I think this is something that people in positions to do so can do
0:53:06 to make things easier for others who might not feel as comfortable asking questions. And it’s certainly
0:53:11 something that we can be attentive to in the workplace. So if you’re conducting job interviews,
0:53:16 you might let candidates know what to expect. Here’s how the interview will be structured. Here’s what
0:53:23 we’d expect from you, so on and so forth. And then the last thing I would just say is, it’s easy to focus
0:53:30 on how unpleasant awkwardness is, but I think one thing we can bear in mind is, like, what are the
0:53:35 alternatives to awkwardness? Because I think that sometimes we’re so afraid of awkwardness that we lose
0:53:40 sight of the fact that the alternatives might be worse. So going back to, like, a conversation about
0:53:46 politics, maybe it’s awkward to talk about politics with your extended family, but what would
0:53:51 you prefer? An awkward conversation or a really angry conversation? Because if awkwardness is a
0:53:58 kind of uncertainty and hesitation, the alternative to that might be a kind of very certain, very angry
0:54:03 tone or interaction, right? And so I think sometimes awkwardness has this other function and this other
0:54:08 utility, which is it can keep us from landing on social scripts that are really counterproductive or
0:54:16 really negative, right? It can kind of keep us reserved or keep us from entering into, like, angry or offensive
0:54:21 or, you know, really other problematic emotional scripts.
0:54:29 One thing I learned in that experience I was talking about earlier is that there are real risks involved
0:54:35 anytime you deviate from the established social script in ways that might create a little bit of
0:54:42 uncertainty. Even if your intentions are good, it might not go the way you hope. And maybe the point
0:54:49 of all this is that that’s okay. That’s life. This isn’t actually a scripted TV show. It’s unpredictable.
0:54:52 Shit happens. But I guess easier said than done.
0:54:58 Well, and scripts have to change sometimes, too. And I think that’s one place where we see awkwardness
0:55:01 emerging, right? Sometimes the old scripts just don’t work anymore, right?
0:55:02 And that’s good.
0:55:09 Yeah, it’s good. And we can be explicit, right? We can say, like, okay, look, now I’m, you know,
0:55:14 in this polyamorous relationship and I want to bring all my partners home for Thanksgiving. And like,
0:55:19 what’s the deal? What’s the norm around introducing multiple partners to your family? And we can just
0:55:24 figure it out, right? And that’s okay. The world will not end if we kind of explicitly acknowledge that
0:55:29 some of these norms are things we have control over, we can negotiate, and we can figure out what’s
0:55:30 going to work for us collectively.
0:55:39 Could we get rid of all this awkwardness if everyone was forced to take improv classes in school? And I’m
0:55:44 kind of serious. I mean, if awkwardness is just a result of the lack of a social script, then maybe being
0:55:46 comfortable without a script is the answer.
0:55:55 Maybe. I guess a different question is, would we want to? Would we want to get rid of awkwardness? Or is it better to
0:55:59 have situations where we feel a little hesitant, where we feel a little uncertain, and where we
0:56:05 take a minute to become aware of the social infrastructure around us? Because once we recognize
0:56:11 that it’s there, we can be conscious of our role in creating it. And that gives us the ability to
0:56:13 consciously reflect on and change it.
0:56:16 Yeah. I don’t think it’s about getting rid of that uncertainty. It’s about changing our relationship
0:56:20 to it. It’s about being comfortable with it, not trying to expunge it.
0:56:26 Yeah. And I don’t even think we need improv classes for that. I think people just need to read my book.
0:56:30 First off, that’s a false choice. We can clearly do both.
0:56:38 But I mean, I’ve always, I mean, the older I get, the more I believe that doing improv comedy is almost
0:56:42 like the ultimate training for navigating life. And it’s something I’ve always wanted to do.
0:56:44 But I keep not doing it.
0:56:49 I mean, I think having a podcast must be a kind of improv, right? I mean, you have to get good at
0:56:55 like some kind of improv and, you know, reacting to your ass reacting to the conversation. But,
0:57:01 you know, I don’t know if we need to do, there’s, there’s two things improv might do for you. One is
0:57:10 to help you sort of react on your feet in the moment. And the other way to get out of awkwardness
0:57:15 or to mind awkwardness less is to just be okay with discomfort, right? And I do think that second
0:57:20 thing, I often think that being okay with other people’s discomfort and your own discomfort is a
0:57:26 kind of superpower, right? And I think in some ways that’s what going to a cocktail party can feel
0:57:32 like sometimes it’s just standing there feeling like you are on stage failing and you have no choice
0:57:37 but to push through. And I think once we recognize that like, it’s not just us, it happens to everyone
0:57:43 and it’s not necessarily our fault. And it doesn’t say anything terrible about us, right? Improv is about
0:57:49 building connections with your partner. I assume I haven’t really done it. So I’m kind of basing this on
0:57:54 what I know of improv. But I think that’s another way to get out of our own awkwardness is to pay
0:57:58 attention to other people and to try to attune ourselves to other people. And I think that’s
0:58:04 one reason that, you know, we might see an analogy with improv here, right? That willingness to put
0:58:09 something out there and have someone else say yes and, right? But notice if your improv partner never
0:58:14 gives you the yes and, there’s not much you can do there. And blaming yourself is really a mistake
0:58:16 because they’re not giving you much to work with.
0:58:25 Yeah. So if someone listens to this conversation or read your book, what is the most important lesson
0:58:27 you’d want them to walk away with?
0:58:34 Yeah. I mean, I think what I would hope people would take away is awkwardness is not a personal
0:58:42 failing. Awkwardness is not a you problem. It’s an us problem. And that awkwardness is something that
0:58:49 happens not necessarily because of a mistake someone made or because someone is bad at something. It can
0:58:56 be something that happens simply because we’ve outgrown the social norms and scripts available to
0:59:03 us as a society. So I guess the point of that is we can see awkwardness as an opportunity to take
0:59:05 something that’s not working for us and re-engineer it.
0:59:12 I like that. And yeah, I think I’d stress the same thing. I mean, especially if you’re
0:59:18 someone who thinks of yourself as awkward or who has been called awkward by other people,
0:59:24 you know, maybe take it easy on yourself. Maybe say, you know what? Screw that. I’m not awkward. The world
0:59:28 we’ve built might make me feel awkward sometimes, but that says more about the world
0:59:37 than me. So yeah, let’s leave it right there. Alexandra Plakias, this was a lot of fun. Thank you.
0:59:39 Thank you so much.
0:59:45 Also, go check out Alexandra’s book. It is called Awkwardness, a Theory.
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