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0:01:42 If the spirit moves you.
0:01:43 Optimal minimum.
0:01:47 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile
0:01:48 before my hands start shaking.
0:01:50 Can I ask you a personal question?
0:01:52 Now would have seen an appropriate time.
0:01:54 What if I did the opposite?
0:01:56 I’m a cybernetic organism,
0:01:58 living tissue over a metal endoskeleton.
0:02:07 Hello, boys and girls.
0:02:09 This is Tim Ferriss.
0:02:10 Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show,
0:02:13 where it is my job to deconstruct world-class performers
0:02:14 of all different types,
0:02:16 to tease out the routines, habits, and so on
0:02:17 that you can apply to your own life.
0:02:20 This is a special in-between-isode,
0:02:24 which serves as a recap of the episodes from the last month.
0:02:27 Features a short clip from each conversation in one place,
0:02:31 so you can jump around, get a feel for both the episode and the guest,
0:02:34 and then you can always dig deeper by going to one of those episodes.
0:02:36 View this episode as a buffet to whet your appetite.
0:02:37 It’s a lot of fun.
0:02:38 We had fun putting it together.
0:02:41 And for the full list of the guests featured today,
0:02:42 see the episode’s description,
0:02:46 probably right below wherever you press play in your podcast app.
0:02:50 Or as usual, you can head to tim.blog slash podcast
0:02:52 and find all the details there.
0:02:53 Please enjoy.
0:02:57 First up, Craig Maude,
0:02:59 a writer, photographer, and walker
0:03:01 living in Tokyo and Kamakura, Japan,
0:03:03 and the author of
0:03:05 Things Become Other Things
0:03:06 and Kisa by Kisa.
0:03:10 You can find Craig on Instagram and X
0:03:11 at Craig Maude.
0:03:15 This excerpt comes from Tim’s first interview with Craig.
0:03:18 2009, hike to Nepal.
0:03:20 Is that enough of a cue?
0:03:22 Can you tell this story?
0:03:24 Yeah, that’s an inflection point.
0:03:25 I just got goosebumps, actually.
0:03:29 So I really struggled with alcohol in my 20s.
0:03:31 My teenage years, I didn’t touch anything.
0:03:34 I was militantly straight-edge-ish.
0:03:36 And basically, looking back now,
0:03:38 I realize I had such a strong impulse
0:03:41 to make sure I could get to whatever the next place was.
0:03:43 Anything I saw that could hold me back,
0:03:45 which included falling in love
0:03:47 or doing drugs or anything like that
0:03:48 that was like a retarding agent,
0:03:50 as a teenager,
0:03:50 I was like,
0:03:51 immediately, I was like,
0:03:52 okay, I don’t need this.
0:03:53 And I got to Japan,
0:03:54 and it was like,
0:03:55 oh, this is a place to reinvent myself.
0:03:57 And I started drinking,
0:03:58 because as you do,
0:04:00 because people drink so much here.
0:04:00 Sure.
0:04:03 And it turns out that I can drink a lot.
0:04:05 I can have 15, 20 drinks,
0:04:06 not throw up.
0:04:07 I black out.
0:04:08 Sure.
0:04:10 But there’s something in my genes
0:04:12 that allows me to just drink.
0:04:13 And then after two or three drinks,
0:04:14 something activates,
0:04:17 where it’s just all we live for is more drink.
0:04:21 And I think for most of my 20s,
0:04:23 because I had such a low sense of self-worth,
0:04:25 because of where I came from,
0:04:27 because I felt this abundance of people around me
0:04:28 that I didn’t feel I had.
0:04:30 And I didn’t know how to ratchet that up.
0:04:34 And I had this desire to produce culture,
0:04:35 or to produce art,
0:04:38 to produce literature at a level
0:04:39 that I didn’t know how to,
0:04:41 and I didn’t know how to bridge that gap.
0:04:42 And what I ended up doing was,
0:04:44 because I didn’t have mentors,
0:04:45 because I didn’t have archetypes near me,
0:04:47 I just drank like a fish.
0:04:48 And I played a lot of music,
0:04:50 because that was one thing I did have mastery over.
0:04:52 And I played a lot of music,
0:04:54 and I played a lot of that blacked out.
0:04:57 And I’m really lucky I didn’t die.
0:04:59 I mean, it would be one of these things
0:05:00 where many, many mornings of my life,
0:05:01 I’ve woken up,
0:05:02 and it’s just been checking,
0:05:04 is my face okay?
0:05:05 Did I break my skull open?
0:05:06 Or, you know, something like that.
0:05:08 And I was madly in love.
0:05:09 I fell madly, madly in love.
0:05:11 I was 26, 27 years old.
0:05:12 And I just,
0:05:16 I had the most incredible love connection
0:05:17 I’d ever felt.
0:05:19 This like otherworldly sense
0:05:20 of being in love with this person.
0:05:25 And we connected so intensely
0:05:28 and immediately went on a 40-day trip.
0:05:30 Like a week after meeting.
0:05:32 A 40-day trip through Tibet.
0:05:34 We went to Tibet.
0:05:36 I was possessed by a spirit.
0:05:38 Like, I spoke in tongues.
0:05:39 Wait, hold on.
0:05:40 We hiked up to a glacier.
0:05:43 I mean, we can’t really skip over
0:05:44 getting possessed by spirits.
0:05:48 I mean, it was,
0:05:50 yeah, there was,
0:05:52 we stayed at this one
0:05:54 little hotel in Laza
0:05:57 that had not always been a hotel.
0:05:58 You know, it was this old structure.
0:06:02 And woke up the next morning
0:06:06 and my girlfriend was being very strange.
0:06:07 She was being very weird.
0:06:08 And I was like, what’s going on?
0:06:10 She’s like, I’ll tell you when we get outside.
0:06:10 I was like, what?
0:06:12 You’ll tell me when we get outside?
0:06:12 Like, what’s this about?
0:06:14 And we go outside and she goes,
0:06:17 okay, last night we had to get out of there
0:06:18 because last night
0:06:20 I woke up in the middle of the night.
0:06:22 You were on your side of the bed
0:06:23 cradling something
0:06:25 that was not there.
0:06:27 You were speaking in Tibetan.
0:06:28 I couldn’t get you to wake up.
0:06:32 And I was trying to speak to you in English,
0:06:33 trying to speak to you in Japanese.
0:06:34 You wouldn’t respond.
0:06:36 And I finally crawled over
0:06:37 on your side of the bed
0:06:40 and I kind of took the air
0:06:41 that you were holding.
0:06:45 And I turned you on your side
0:06:46 and you were able to like,
0:06:47 calm down and go to sleep.
0:06:50 And I was like, oh my God,
0:06:50 I had this,
0:06:52 because I had had this vision
0:06:53 slash dream of this woman in white
0:06:54 standing in the doorway
0:06:56 and at the foot of the bed
0:06:57 the night before.
0:06:59 And I don’t know what was happening.
0:07:01 And like, even now,
0:07:02 I’m like full body goosebumps right now.
0:07:05 God, this is like straight out
0:07:06 of paranormal activity or something.
0:07:07 I’m just like, oh God.
0:07:08 It was so bizarre.
0:07:10 And we had been, you know,
0:07:11 and you have to imagine like,
0:07:12 I don’t know if you’ve ever been in love
0:07:13 to this degree
0:07:15 where it just feels like
0:07:16 everything in the world is fated.
0:07:17 Like everything is a sign
0:07:18 that you need to be together,
0:07:19 that this is magic.
0:07:20 Like only these things
0:07:21 can possibly happen
0:07:22 because you’re connected,
0:07:22 you’re together.
0:07:23 We both bought,
0:07:25 I remember we like pulled out
0:07:26 our books on the first day of the trip.
0:07:27 We had both brought
0:07:29 The Stranger by Camus.
0:07:30 You know, it was like,
0:07:32 it was like, oh my God, we’re fated.
0:07:34 I went back to the hotel
0:07:35 and I went to the manager
0:07:36 and I was like,
0:07:37 hey, I don’t think
0:07:38 we can stay here tonight.
0:07:39 He’s like, oh, what’s wrong?
0:07:40 And I was like, well,
0:07:41 you know, I was kind of possessed,
0:07:42 saw this.
0:07:43 He’s like, did you see the woman?
0:07:45 And I was like, yeah.
0:07:45 Oh God.
0:07:47 He’s like, he’s like, oh,
0:07:48 oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:07:49 No, we know what’s going on with that.
0:07:50 Here, we’ll take you
0:07:51 to the dream reader.
0:07:53 And so I was like, what?
0:07:54 You’ll take me to the dream?
0:07:55 So I ended up,
0:07:57 I’ll try to truncate this
0:07:57 because it can,
0:07:58 it can kind of get a little bit long,
0:07:59 but I mean,
0:08:00 I’m not sure anybody listening
0:08:01 wants you to truncate
0:08:02 this particular story.
0:08:04 So I mean,
0:08:05 go wherever you want.
0:08:07 One of the workers there
0:08:07 is like, you know,
0:08:08 the manager’s like,
0:08:09 okay, take him to the dream reader.
0:08:10 So, and I’m thinking,
0:08:11 okay, this is a scam.
0:08:12 I’m getting scammed.
0:08:13 Something that’s like weird’s going on.
0:08:16 And he takes us
0:08:16 and we go to like
0:08:18 the outskirts of Laza.
0:08:19 We go to this like really
0:08:21 kind of weird apartment block
0:08:22 that was just made of concrete.
0:08:22 It was maybe like
0:08:24 two or three stories tall.
0:08:26 And he takes us
0:08:27 to this room
0:08:28 on the third floor
0:08:29 and there’s a line of people,
0:08:30 a line of Tibetans
0:08:31 waiting at this door.
0:08:32 And they were all
0:08:34 waiting to have their dreams read.
0:08:35 So it was like,
0:08:35 okay, this is bizarre.
0:08:36 So we wait,
0:08:37 we stand in line,
0:08:37 we go inside,
0:08:38 we sit down inside.
0:08:40 The most beautiful,
0:08:41 I don’t know how old she was.
0:08:42 She was anywhere between
0:08:45 15 and a thousand years old.
0:08:46 Like she was just this,
0:08:47 this creature of
0:08:49 just the most bizarre light
0:08:49 walks out.
0:08:50 It was like being in the matrix,
0:08:51 you know,
0:08:52 the scene in the matrix
0:08:52 where they’re like
0:08:53 with the spoon and the bending
0:08:55 and you’re in this random apartment
0:08:56 and the TV’s on,
0:08:56 you know,
0:08:57 it was like that situation.
0:08:58 She comes over,
0:08:59 brings some yak,
0:09:00 buttermilk tea,
0:09:01 some cookies
0:09:02 because someone’s in the dream
0:09:03 reader room
0:09:04 and we’re waiting for them
0:09:05 to get out.
0:09:06 And then our term comes up.
0:09:07 I go in there,
0:09:07 you go into this room,
0:09:08 it’s all candles,
0:09:09 Dalai Lama photos,
0:09:10 like all this stuff.
0:09:10 It’s like,
0:09:11 you feel like you’re in this
0:09:12 really holy space.
0:09:14 And the guy from the hotel
0:09:15 interprets for us.
0:09:16 I tell her the dream,
0:09:16 I tell her what happened
0:09:18 and she gives me this blessing,
0:09:20 puts a white wreath
0:09:21 around my neck,
0:09:22 gives me this little
0:09:23 satchel of seeds
0:09:24 and tells me to put them
0:09:24 under my pillow
0:09:25 when I sleep
0:09:27 and then writes me a prayer
0:09:28 and she says,
0:09:28 okay,
0:09:30 here’s these three pieces of paper.
0:09:30 You have to take them
0:09:31 to these three temples
0:09:32 and they will burn them
0:09:33 for you tonight.
0:09:34 They’ll know what to do.
0:09:34 Just tell them
0:09:36 the dream reader sent you
0:09:37 and you’ll be okay.
0:09:37 You’ll be fine.
0:09:38 Everything will be good.
0:09:40 And I was like,
0:09:42 no one’s asking me for money.
0:09:44 And the hotel guy’s like,
0:09:45 oh, you can leave a tip
0:09:45 if you want or whatever.
0:09:48 It was like $2 or something.
0:09:49 I put $2 in the little thingy.
0:09:51 And then we go to the temples
0:09:52 and it ended up becoming
0:09:54 this incredible adventure.
0:09:55 This connects with a lot
0:09:56 of my walking as well.
0:09:57 Having experiences like this
0:09:58 I think informed
0:10:00 the sense of just give yourself up
0:10:01 to what the day
0:10:04 could potentially give to you.
0:10:05 And so I ended up going
0:10:06 to all these temples
0:10:07 I would have never gone to.
0:10:08 I went to the dream reader’s apartment
0:10:10 which was like the most bizarre,
0:10:11 beautiful place I went to
0:10:12 in all of Tibet
0:10:12 in that entire trip.
0:10:14 We went to these temples,
0:10:15 met these monks,
0:10:16 say, hey, can you burn this for me?
0:10:18 Oh yes, of course, absolutely.
0:10:19 Give them like a dollar,
0:10:21 50 cents or whatever.
0:10:23 The whole thing cost nothing.
0:10:24 It was clearly not a scam.
0:10:26 It was clearly this thing
0:10:27 that a lot of locals
0:10:28 were participating in.
0:10:30 And it was magic.
0:10:31 It was just pure magic.
0:10:31 So anyway,
0:10:32 things like that were happening
0:10:33 with this woman.
0:10:35 And I screwed it up
0:10:36 because of my drinking.
0:10:38 I ruined the relationship.
0:10:39 She punched me in the face
0:10:39 at one point,
0:10:40 very rightfully so.
0:10:42 And she was like,
0:10:44 hey, I can’t be with someone like you.
0:10:45 This happened on that trip?
0:10:47 Not on that trip.
0:10:48 That happened a couple months later.
0:10:49 We ended up staying together
0:10:50 for about three months.
0:10:51 And basically,
0:10:51 I mean,
0:10:53 it was about 10 years worth
0:10:55 of lifetimes in three months.
0:10:55 The candle that burns
0:10:56 twice as bright.
0:10:57 Yes.
0:11:01 But losing her was
0:11:02 probably the biggest
0:11:05 psychic damage
0:11:06 I’d ever encountered
0:11:06 in my life
0:11:07 as an adult.
0:11:10 And I remember just lying
0:11:11 in my tiny apartment
0:11:12 in Tokyo,
0:11:13 my six mat tatami room
0:11:14 apartment in Tokyo.
0:11:15 It was three in the morning.
0:11:16 I wanted to die.
0:11:18 It was rock,
0:11:18 rock,
0:11:19 rock bottom.
0:11:20 This isn’t like
0:11:21 a ritual story.
0:11:22 I didn’t get up
0:11:22 and run 40 miles
0:11:23 or anything like that.
0:11:24 But I was like,
0:11:25 I’m going to start running.
0:11:25 And I went out
0:11:26 and I ran like 5K
0:11:28 at three in the morning
0:11:29 through the streets of Tokyo.
0:11:31 And I was like,
0:11:32 that felt good.
0:11:33 And I was like,
0:11:33 okay,
0:11:34 I need to stop drinking.
0:11:35 And to stop drinking,
0:11:36 I’m going to run this marathon
0:11:37 in November.
0:11:38 I think it was like July
0:11:38 when this happened.
0:11:40 And I just started
0:11:40 preparing for that.
0:11:41 These were actually
0:11:42 the first steps
0:11:43 for me
0:11:45 to deliberately address
0:11:46 this lack of self-worth
0:11:47 that I’ve been carrying around
0:11:48 for all of my adult life.
0:11:49 And that had,
0:11:50 I think,
0:11:50 driven me to drink
0:11:51 the way I drank.
0:11:52 That to give into
0:11:54 whatever those genetic impulses were.
0:11:55 And to start to go,
0:11:55 okay,
0:11:56 we’re going to run.
0:11:57 We’re going to be someone
0:11:57 who runs.
0:11:58 A lot of this
0:11:58 is also like
0:12:00 very Atomic Habits
0:12:00 style stuff.
0:12:01 It’s like,
0:12:01 who are you going to be
0:12:02 and how are you going to
0:12:02 set yourself up
0:12:03 to be successful?
0:12:04 I’m going to be a person
0:12:05 who runs.
0:12:05 I’m going to be a person
0:12:07 who doesn’t drink.
0:12:07 I’m going to be a person
0:12:09 who charges a lot.
0:12:10 So I was,
0:12:12 at this time,
0:12:12 you know,
0:12:14 with the publishing company thing,
0:12:14 we were producing
0:12:15 these books
0:12:16 that were winning awards
0:12:17 and making absolutely
0:12:18 no money.
0:12:19 And so I was consulting,
0:12:21 doing like web design,
0:12:22 consulting,
0:12:23 and stuff like that.
0:12:23 And I was like,
0:12:23 okay,
0:12:25 I’m going to start charging
0:12:26 absurd amounts of money
0:12:27 for my time.
0:12:28 The worst that can happen
0:12:28 is people reject.
0:12:30 And they started accepting it.
0:12:31 And I was like,
0:12:31 oh,
0:12:32 little by little.
0:12:34 All these stupid
0:12:35 little steps
0:12:36 from the time
0:12:37 I was basically 27
0:12:38 to 30,
0:12:39 these were the most
0:12:41 important years
0:12:42 of tiny little steps.
0:12:43 My time is more valuable.
0:12:44 I’m going to be a person
0:12:45 who runs.
0:12:45 I’m going to be a person
0:12:46 who can take care of himself.
0:12:48 I still drank,
0:12:48 even though I tried
0:12:49 to not drink,
0:12:50 but I started lowering it.
0:12:51 It took me about
0:12:53 four full years
0:12:54 to completely get off
0:12:55 the sauce
0:12:57 in a really dangerous way.
0:12:59 And it kind of,
0:13:00 part of it culminated
0:13:01 in going to Nepal
0:13:03 and climbing up
0:13:04 to Annapurta base camp.
0:13:06 And that was after
0:13:06 we had broken up
0:13:07 and I felt like
0:13:08 all the magic
0:13:09 of my life was done.
0:13:10 I felt like there was
0:13:10 no way for me
0:13:11 to experience magic again.
0:13:12 I felt like she,
0:13:13 and again,
0:13:14 it’s this totally
0:13:15 irrational sense
0:13:16 of scarcity.
0:13:17 The amount of scarcity
0:13:19 I felt as an adult
0:13:20 in my 20s
0:13:22 is just shocking.
0:13:23 It was this fathomless
0:13:24 sense of scarcity.
0:13:24 Like,
0:13:25 the money’s not going
0:13:26 to be there.
0:13:27 The love isn’t going
0:13:27 to be there.
0:13:28 The support isn’t
0:13:28 going to be there.
0:13:30 And then when I lost her,
0:13:30 I was like,
0:13:31 I’m never going to have anyone
0:13:33 who will ever love me
0:13:34 like this person loved me.
0:13:34 And like,
0:13:35 I’m never going to be able
0:13:36 to create like I created
0:13:37 with this person.
0:13:39 And I had to start
0:13:39 proving to myself
0:13:40 that that wasn’t true.
0:13:42 And I climbed up.
0:13:42 I was like,
0:13:42 okay,
0:13:43 I’m just going to go to Nepal
0:13:44 and I’m going to climb up
0:13:44 Annapurna,
0:13:45 go to Basecamp.
0:14:05 Metaphorically speaking,
0:14:06 the billboard question,
0:14:06 right?
0:14:07 So if you were going to put
0:14:09 a message on a billboard,
0:14:10 could say anything,
0:14:11 could be an image,
0:14:13 anything at all
0:14:14 that you would want
0:14:16 a lot of people to see
0:14:17 and understand,
0:14:19 what might you put on that?
0:14:21 I love this question.
0:14:23 I might overthink it.
0:14:28 And understand.
0:14:30 So we can assume though.
0:14:31 The and understand
0:14:32 I threw on there
0:14:33 with a little creative flourish,
0:14:35 it may complicate your thinking.
0:14:36 I’m going to build on that.
0:14:37 And thinking about this,
0:14:37 what comes to mind,
0:14:38 first of all,
0:14:40 is the category
0:14:42 is something
0:14:43 that will help people
0:14:45 heal,
0:14:46 you know,
0:14:47 just be
0:14:49 their whole and true selves
0:14:50 because I think that’s where
0:14:51 all our problems come from
0:14:53 is the lack of that.
0:14:54 And as much as I care
0:14:55 about climate,
0:14:56 I think that the key
0:14:57 to solving climate
0:14:58 is to heal ourselves,
0:14:59 to heal culture,
0:15:00 to heal the planet.
0:15:03 And so I start with the self.
0:15:05 And then my mind goes to,
0:15:08 what’s a big fundamental truth
0:15:09 that we want everyone,
0:15:11 let’s pretend if they read it,
0:15:12 they’ll actually get it
0:15:13 and know it.
0:15:14 Then I think there’s
0:15:15 a little bit of tension
0:15:16 between like the most
0:15:17 fundamental truths
0:15:20 and how actionable they are.
0:15:21 So if we said,
0:15:22 we are all one,
0:15:23 which I believe,
0:15:24 it’s like,
0:15:25 okay,
0:15:26 we’re all one.
0:15:27 The universe is one big thing,
0:15:28 we’re all connected.
0:15:30 What do I do with that?
0:15:30 I mean,
0:15:32 maybe if you really ponder that
0:15:32 and meditate on that
0:15:33 a long time,
0:15:33 it’ll actually,
0:15:34 it will do you some good.
0:15:35 But then if you move
0:15:36 toward the spectrum
0:15:38 of usefulness
0:15:40 of what’s a fundamental truth
0:15:41 that’s more useful,
0:15:42 you might some,
0:15:43 you know,
0:15:44 have like some Buddhist
0:15:45 saying like
0:15:46 all of our suffering
0:15:47 comes from,
0:15:47 you know,
0:15:48 our thoughts
0:15:49 or our inability
0:15:50 to accept reality,
0:15:51 which is a little bit
0:15:52 more useful.
0:15:54 but maybe for the masses
0:15:54 not,
0:15:56 still not very actionable.
0:15:57 And then you could move
0:15:57 to like,
0:15:59 feel your feelings,
0:16:01 which I think would
0:16:02 do a tremendous
0:16:03 amount of good
0:16:04 if people adopt,
0:16:04 oh,
0:16:05 feel your feelings.
0:16:06 It’s a little bit easier
0:16:07 to imagine that.
0:16:08 Like so much
0:16:08 of our suffering,
0:16:09 and I say this
0:16:10 as someone who
0:16:11 told their first therapist,
0:16:12 I don’t understand
0:16:13 the point of feelings.
0:16:14 I was like,
0:16:15 they are just a nuisance
0:16:16 and get in the way.
0:16:17 so it took me
0:16:18 a long time
0:16:19 to appreciate that
0:16:21 and the avoidance
0:16:22 that so many
0:16:23 of us go through.
0:16:24 And then
0:16:28 one step further
0:16:28 might be
0:16:30 stop drinking alcohol
0:16:31 for six months
0:16:32 and see how you feel.
0:16:35 Not tonight though,
0:16:36 it’s fine,
0:16:36 we’re in a bar.
0:16:37 Not tonight,
0:16:37 nice.
0:16:38 Starting tomorrow,
0:16:38 starting tomorrow.
0:16:39 Consider it.
0:16:40 So following up
0:16:41 just on the feeling
0:16:42 your feelings,
0:16:43 you said for a long time
0:16:43 and you said this
0:16:44 to your first therapist,
0:16:44 right,
0:16:45 they’re just a nuisance,
0:16:46 I’d like to know
0:16:48 how to rid myself
0:16:49 of these irritations.
0:16:51 What changed?
0:16:53 How did you end up
0:16:55 going on to team feelings?
0:16:55 So,
0:16:56 I mean,
0:16:57 it was a long,
0:16:58 long process.
0:16:58 I mean,
0:16:59 the therapy helped,
0:17:01 the psychedelics helped,
0:17:02 meditation,
0:17:03 growth,
0:17:03 learning,
0:17:04 reading books,
0:17:05 having friends,
0:17:07 stopping drinking,
0:17:08 actually,
0:17:09 just for six months.
0:17:10 And,
0:17:12 I’ve gone through a lot,
0:17:13 I’ve done a lot of work
0:17:15 particularly in the last
0:17:15 couple years.
0:17:16 That’s been,
0:17:16 you know,
0:17:17 just super,
0:17:18 super important.
0:17:19 Yeah,
0:17:19 just a note on alcohol.
0:17:20 Look,
0:17:20 I’m going to have
0:17:21 some drinks tonight.
0:17:22 I do enjoy drinking,
0:17:22 but,
0:17:23 yeah.
0:17:27 But,
0:17:28 just a PSA for people
0:17:29 because ketamine
0:17:30 is in the air.
0:17:31 Ketamine’s probably
0:17:32 in a few people’s pockets here.
0:17:33 They’re both
0:17:35 dissociative anesthetics,
0:17:35 so if you want to feel
0:17:36 your feelings,
0:17:37 it’s a good idea
0:17:39 not to engage
0:17:40 with those things
0:17:41 excessively.
0:17:41 And if you have
0:17:42 a history of alcohol
0:17:44 overuse,
0:17:45 I would also stay away
0:17:46 from any at-home ketamine.
0:17:47 But,
0:17:48 in terms of books
0:17:49 or types of therapy,
0:17:50 did you find,
0:17:51 if there are people
0:17:51 in the audience
0:17:51 who are like,
0:17:52 yeah,
0:17:52 you know what,
0:17:52 actually,
0:17:53 that makes sense to me,
0:17:54 but I’ve never been able
0:17:56 to find a handhold
0:17:57 to get started.
0:17:59 Is there any advice
0:17:59 you might give?
0:18:02 Probably the best thing
0:18:03 I’ve ever done
0:18:04 in that realm
0:18:06 is Hoffman.
0:18:08 Have you done Hoffman?
0:18:08 Hoffman,
0:18:09 I haven’t done Hoffman,
0:18:10 but quite a few
0:18:10 of my friends have.
0:18:11 So there’s this thing
0:18:12 called the Hoffman process.
0:18:15 It’s 20 years of therapy
0:18:15 in a week
0:18:17 in terms of the effect.
0:18:17 I mean,
0:18:19 I’ve got much more out of it
0:18:20 than I ever got in therapy.
0:18:21 It’s a week-long retreat.
0:18:23 There’s a few different places.
0:18:23 The main one’s
0:18:24 in Petaluma, California.
0:18:26 You hand over your phone.
0:18:27 You go
0:18:29 and do some exercises
0:18:32 with 36 strangers
0:18:34 and yourself
0:18:34 for a week
0:18:35 and you come out
0:18:36 a new person.
0:18:40 So I’ve spoken,
0:18:40 well,
0:18:41 not directly,
0:18:41 I’ve more listened,
0:18:43 but had a conversation
0:18:44 on this podcast
0:18:45 where the Hoffman process
0:18:45 came up
0:18:47 and a lot of listeners
0:18:48 have gone to the Hoffman process
0:18:49 and I get letters
0:18:51 literally every week
0:18:52 from people
0:18:54 who are thanking me
0:18:56 for not really
0:18:58 the proper credit
0:18:58 because there’s someone else
0:18:59 who brought it up
0:19:00 for the Hoffman process.
0:19:02 I’m very curious.
0:19:03 You mentioned the strangers.
0:19:05 Part of the reason
0:19:05 I haven’t gone
0:19:06 is I’m like,
0:19:07 I don’t want to air
0:19:09 all of my dirty laundry
0:19:11 in front of 20 strangers.
0:19:12 I don’t know these people.
0:19:14 And I know you’re also,
0:19:16 I think it’s fair to say,
0:19:17 pretty introverted.
0:19:18 I would say I am,
0:19:19 even though I’m on stage
0:19:20 like safely
0:19:21 speaking into the darkness.
0:19:24 Was that an issue
0:19:25 at all for you
0:19:25 or how did you
0:19:27 get past that?
0:19:28 It wasn’t easy.
0:19:29 but it’s just
0:19:30 in the context of it,
0:19:32 it just feels very safe.
0:19:34 One of the fascinating things
0:19:35 is it’s strangers,
0:19:37 you are not allowed
0:19:38 to say your last name
0:19:39 or what you do
0:19:39 in the real world
0:19:40 when you get there.
0:19:42 So you connect with people
0:19:43 and I realized
0:19:45 after a few days,
0:19:47 I relied so much
0:19:48 on people knowing
0:19:48 who I was
0:19:49 or what I did
0:19:51 that it was this veil
0:19:52 between me
0:19:53 and other humans.
0:19:55 so you get to know people
0:19:56 at such a deep level
0:19:58 without really knowing
0:19:59 any of the normal things
0:20:00 that we would say,
0:20:01 you meet someone here,
0:20:01 what do you do,
0:20:03 where do you live?
0:20:05 And that,
0:20:06 it just feels
0:20:07 incredibly safe.
0:20:09 But the process is,
0:20:10 they’ve been doing it
0:20:11 for 50 some years.
0:20:12 It’s very evolved.
0:20:13 It’s very well done.
0:20:14 You take any of it
0:20:15 out of context,
0:20:16 it sounds weird.
0:20:17 like I knew nothing
0:20:17 going in
0:20:19 and about five people
0:20:20 brought it up to me
0:20:22 in random conversations
0:20:22 over a week
0:20:23 and were like,
0:20:23 okay,
0:20:24 this is a message,
0:20:25 I’m going to sign up
0:20:25 for this thing,
0:20:26 show up,
0:20:27 I had no idea
0:20:29 and then you just dive in
0:20:31 and it’s incredible.
0:20:32 Yeah,
0:20:32 from what I can tell,
0:20:34 it’s somewhat like Fight Club.
0:20:35 It’s like first rule
0:20:35 of Fight Club
0:20:36 is don’t talk about Fight Club.
0:20:37 You’re not going to find
0:20:38 much detail
0:20:39 on the Hoffman process.
0:20:42 This also ties into
0:20:42 a question I was planning
0:20:43 on asking anyway,
0:20:44 which is,
0:20:45 are there any habits
0:20:47 or beliefs
0:20:49 that have really
0:20:50 positively impacted
0:20:51 your life
0:20:52 in the last handful
0:20:53 of years?
0:20:54 Could also be 10 years ago,
0:20:56 but you’ve talked
0:20:57 about doing a lot of work
0:20:58 in the last handful
0:20:59 of years.
0:21:00 Any new habits,
0:21:01 beliefs,
0:21:03 tools,
0:21:04 anything come to mind
0:21:04 that have been
0:21:05 really helpful?
0:21:06 Yes,
0:21:08 but I feel like
0:21:08 they’re the ones
0:21:10 that everybody knows.
0:21:11 Well,
0:21:11 I mean,
0:21:12 sometimes the fundamentals
0:21:14 are worth a review.
0:21:14 I mean,
0:21:15 it is exercise,
0:21:16 exercise and meditation.
0:21:18 I dabbled in
0:21:19 for a long time
0:21:21 and then I got
0:21:22 much more serious
0:21:22 a couple years ago
0:21:23 about both
0:21:25 and really,
0:21:27 really dramatic
0:21:27 life improvement.
0:21:28 Why did you get
0:21:29 more serious about them?
0:21:31 You just wake up
0:21:32 one day
0:21:32 and you’re like,
0:21:33 today’s a new day
0:21:34 or was there
0:21:35 a breaking point?
0:21:37 It was early COVID.
0:21:37 I was like,
0:21:38 what the fuck
0:21:39 am I doing?
0:21:40 I’m going to turn 50
0:21:43 and I need to work
0:21:43 a hell of a lot harder
0:21:44 to be in shape
0:21:45 than I was.
0:21:47 So I just started doing it.
0:21:47 I was at home.
0:21:48 I had the time.
0:21:50 So I did that.
0:21:52 Although that’s increased
0:21:52 and, you know,
0:21:53 because you get the
0:21:54 positive reward cycle
0:21:55 and it feels great.
0:21:57 And meditation,
0:21:59 I’ve always found
0:22:00 super valuable
0:22:00 and I just,
0:22:01 last year,
0:22:04 on January 2nd,
0:22:04 2024,
0:22:07 I had meditated
0:22:07 the day before
0:22:08 and I was like,
0:22:09 I could meditate
0:22:11 every single day
0:22:11 this year.
0:22:13 And it was just
0:22:14 that sort of
0:22:15 psychological hook
0:22:16 that you find motivating
0:22:17 even though it’s arbitrary.
0:22:18 And I was like,
0:22:19 yes,
0:22:19 I’m going to meditate
0:22:20 every single day
0:22:21 in 2024.
0:22:22 That’s a goal.
0:22:23 And I don’t normally
0:22:24 set goals like that,
0:22:26 but I was like,
0:22:26 okay,
0:22:27 let’s see what happens.
0:22:29 And my teacher says,
0:22:30 you can’t boil water
0:22:31 if you keep turning
0:22:31 off the flame.
0:22:33 And so the consistency
0:22:34 of meditation,
0:22:36 I underestimated
0:22:37 what dramatic difference
0:22:37 that makes
0:22:38 and how fast
0:22:39 you can drop in
0:22:40 if you do it
0:22:41 every single day.
0:22:42 What type of meditation
0:22:44 did you decide on?
0:22:45 Just mindfulness,
0:22:46 meditation,
0:22:47 breath,
0:22:48 and awareness.
0:22:50 Not TM,
0:22:50 just…
0:22:51 Just like an open
0:22:52 monitoring,
0:22:53 feel what you feel,
0:22:54 see what you see.
0:22:54 Yeah.
0:22:56 Are you noting things
0:22:57 or are you just
0:22:57 observing?
0:22:57 Sometimes noting.
0:22:59 Sometimes noting.
0:23:00 And I know
0:23:01 you like to know
0:23:01 about products,
0:23:02 you know about this product,
0:23:04 but I was using
0:23:04 The Way.
0:23:05 You probably talked
0:23:06 about that before.
0:23:08 The Way is a meditation app.
0:23:08 I hadn’t used
0:23:09 a meditation app
0:23:09 for years.
0:23:10 The Way,
0:23:12 I started using The Way,
0:23:13 Kevin sent it to me actually,
0:23:14 around when it was
0:23:15 still in beta.
0:23:17 And I started doing that
0:23:18 around that time.
0:23:19 Yeah.
0:23:20 The Way is fantastic.
0:23:21 Yeah.
0:23:22 Henry Schuchman,
0:23:23 just an incredible guy.
0:23:24 I mean,
0:23:26 we’ll hope to meet him
0:23:27 in person someday.
0:23:33 Last but not least,
0:23:34 Richard Taylor,
0:23:36 the co-founder
0:23:37 and creative lead
0:23:38 at Academy Award-winning
0:23:39 design studio
0:23:41 and manufacturing facility,
0:23:42 Weta Workshop,
0:23:44 and Greg Broadmoor,
0:23:46 an artist and writer
0:23:47 who has been part of
0:23:48 the Weta Workshop team
0:23:49 for more than 20 years
0:23:50 and is the creator
0:23:52 of the retro sci-fi world
0:23:53 of Dr. Groard Bortz
0:23:55 and the graphic novel series
0:23:56 One Path.
0:23:58 But first,
0:23:59 I do want to talk about,
0:24:00 because this certainly
0:24:01 is so iconic
0:24:03 and it’s in the minds
0:24:04 of probably most people
0:24:04 listening,
0:24:05 which is
0:24:06 Lord of the Rings.
0:24:08 And I’d like to
0:24:09 understand
0:24:11 what some of the most,
0:24:12 first of all,
0:24:14 kind of how that came to be,
0:24:14 Richard,
0:24:16 and then
0:24:17 what some of the most
0:24:18 crucial decisions were
0:24:20 with respect to
0:24:21 taking on
0:24:22 a project
0:24:24 of that scope.
0:24:24 Because
0:24:26 for a lot of companies,
0:24:27 I could see that being
0:24:28 the hug of death,
0:24:30 where you suddenly go from
0:24:33 reasonably moderately contained
0:24:34 and small
0:24:36 to sprawling,
0:24:38 taking on so much responsibility
0:24:40 and many companies
0:24:41 would implode.
0:24:41 I’ve seen it happen
0:24:42 many, many times.
0:24:44 So how did that come to be
0:24:45 and what were some
0:24:46 of the most important
0:24:48 decisions made
0:24:48 that allowed
0:24:50 you to
0:24:51 grow the company
0:24:51 and take that on?
0:24:53 Yeah,
0:24:54 that’s a really
0:24:56 big question.
0:24:56 I’ll try and answer it
0:24:58 in a very condensed way.
0:24:59 We have time.
0:25:01 I just pulled this out,
0:25:02 right?
0:25:03 This is Sting
0:25:04 from the movie.
0:25:05 This is one of my
0:25:06 favorite things
0:25:07 that we’ve made
0:25:08 in the company
0:25:10 and I keep it next to me
0:25:11 and I pick it up
0:25:12 and it gives you strength
0:25:13 and it gives you
0:25:15 a sense of wonder
0:25:16 and it connects you
0:25:17 back to a
0:25:18 very happy time
0:25:20 and it glows
0:25:21 if there are
0:25:22 challenging clients
0:25:23 in the corridor.
0:25:24 For people
0:25:25 who can’t see that,
0:25:26 that is a sword.
0:25:27 Yeah.
0:25:28 Oh, sorry.
0:25:29 Those that can’t see it,
0:25:30 here I’m showing
0:25:31 all these visual aids
0:25:32 because that’s how
0:25:33 I think.
0:25:33 Oh, it’s okay.
0:25:35 I’ll drive people
0:25:36 to the video.
0:25:38 Yeah, I just held up
0:25:40 the 1.48 times
0:25:41 larger than life size
0:25:43 sting that’s carried
0:25:44 by Elijah Wood
0:25:46 at his scale.
0:25:47 I likened it
0:25:49 to teetering
0:25:50 towards the edge
0:25:51 of a precipice.
0:25:52 There’s probably
0:25:53 a much better
0:25:54 visual metaphor
0:25:55 than this
0:25:55 but,
0:25:58 and you do this
0:25:59 you know,
0:26:00 frequently in one’s life.
0:26:01 The decision
0:26:02 to start a family,
0:26:03 the decision
0:26:05 to buy your first home
0:26:05 or the home
0:26:06 that you’ll spend
0:26:07 the rest of your life
0:26:07 in like the home
0:26:08 that my wife and I
0:26:10 bought way back
0:26:11 on Meet the Feebles,
0:26:11 right?
0:26:12 the decision
0:26:14 to X, Y, and Z.
0:26:16 But Peter Jackson
0:26:18 offers this opportunity
0:26:20 and when he offered it
0:26:21 my wife and I,
0:26:22 Tanya and I
0:26:24 discussed with Peter
0:26:25 and we ultimately
0:26:26 settled on doing
0:26:28 the design for
0:26:30 and the manufacturing
0:26:32 of the armor,
0:26:32 weapons,
0:26:33 creatures,
0:26:33 miniatures,
0:26:35 special makeup effects
0:26:36 and prosthetics
0:26:37 like five divisions
0:26:39 of very, very large
0:26:39 body of work.
0:26:41 And you teeter
0:26:41 to the edge
0:26:42 of the precipice
0:26:44 and as a human,
0:26:47 just as the human animal
0:26:47 that we are,
0:26:49 you’ve got a decision.
0:26:51 You either step back
0:26:51 from the edge
0:26:52 and let others
0:26:54 take up the slack
0:26:55 and do it for you
0:26:56 and you follow
0:26:58 or you choose
0:26:59 to leap
0:27:00 and you either
0:27:01 will then slam
0:27:01 into the bottom
0:27:02 of the cliff
0:27:03 and make a mess
0:27:04 with your guts
0:27:05 and your brains
0:27:05 everywhere
0:27:07 or you will actually
0:27:09 arrest your fall
0:27:10 through a number
0:27:11 of different
0:27:12 mechanisms.
0:27:13 Self-belief
0:27:14 being the most
0:27:15 important one.
0:27:16 I have four
0:27:17 very simple
0:27:18 tenants
0:27:19 that I operate
0:27:19 by
0:27:21 and four tenants
0:27:21 that I try
0:27:22 and operate
0:27:22 our company
0:27:22 by
0:27:24 and the first
0:27:24 one is love
0:27:25 of oneself.
0:27:27 That doesn’t
0:27:27 mean that you’re
0:27:28 egotistical
0:27:29 or believe that
0:27:30 you’re better
0:27:30 than you are
0:27:32 but if you
0:27:33 can’t see
0:27:34 in yourself
0:27:35 your virtues,
0:27:36 how the hell
0:27:36 are you going
0:27:37 to expect
0:27:38 anyone else
0:27:38 following you
0:27:40 to see your
0:27:41 virtues, right?
0:27:41 So love
0:27:42 of oneself
0:27:43 is the first
0:27:44 of those four
0:27:44 tenants
0:27:46 and there
0:27:47 is mixed
0:27:48 with that
0:27:49 as corny
0:27:50 as it sounds,
0:27:51 ignorance
0:27:51 being your
0:27:52 greatest ally.
0:27:53 I think
0:27:54 all of us
0:27:55 operate
0:27:56 to some
0:27:56 degree
0:27:58 where we
0:27:59 are blinded
0:27:59 by the
0:28:01 love of what
0:28:01 we do
0:28:02 like Bertram
0:28:03 Russell
0:28:03 if I’ve got
0:28:04 the right
0:28:04 person
0:28:05 has a lovely
0:28:06 quote
0:28:07 work is more
0:28:08 fun
0:28:09 than fun
0:28:10 and people
0:28:10 that don’t
0:28:11 understand
0:28:11 that
0:28:13 struggle
0:28:13 even if
0:28:14 you’re in
0:28:15 a low
0:28:16 level
0:28:17 position
0:28:18 that you’re
0:28:18 not really
0:28:19 enjoying
0:28:20 you can
0:28:20 still make
0:28:21 the people
0:28:21 that you
0:28:21 work with
0:28:22 really fun,
0:28:23 right?
0:28:23 I used to
0:28:24 clean toilets
0:28:25 on international
0:28:26 aeroplanes
0:28:27 but man
0:28:27 the people
0:28:28 I worked
0:28:28 with
0:28:29 I put
0:28:30 a cricket
0:28:30 ball
0:28:31 through the
0:28:31 window
0:28:32 of the
0:28:33 international
0:28:34 terminal
0:28:35 because we
0:28:35 were playing
0:28:35 cricket
0:28:37 out on the
0:28:37 tarmac
0:28:38 under the
0:28:39 planes
0:28:39 right?
0:28:40 You can
0:28:41 turn anything
0:28:41 into fun
0:28:43 so I
0:28:43 had once
0:28:44 again a
0:28:45 very corny
0:28:45 and I
0:28:46 couldn’t
0:28:46 think of
0:28:46 something
0:28:47 better at
0:28:47 the time
0:28:49 but we
0:28:51 needed 158
0:28:52 crew working
0:28:53 for seven
0:28:54 and a half
0:28:54 years on
0:28:56 48,000
0:28:56 separate things
0:28:57 to deliver
0:28:58 those five
0:28:59 divisions to
0:28:59 the trilogy
0:29:00 of movies
0:29:01 our works
0:29:02 in 98
0:29:03 to 99
0:29:04 percent of
0:29:05 the films
0:29:06 because our
0:29:06 works in
0:29:07 almost every
0:29:08 image shot
0:29:08 other than
0:29:09 mountains
0:29:10 with no one
0:29:11 in it
0:29:11 or etc
0:29:13 and you’ve
0:29:14 got an
0:29:15 inexperienced
0:29:16 crew
0:29:17 you’re highly
0:29:18 inexperienced
0:29:18 yourself
0:29:19 right?
0:29:19 We’d done
0:29:20 Hercules and
0:29:21 Xena at
0:29:21 the time
0:29:22 and we’d
0:29:22 had a
0:29:23 career of
0:29:23 about 8
0:29:24 to 10
0:29:24 years
0:29:25 doing
0:29:26 Peter’s
0:29:26 films
0:29:27 Peter of
0:29:28 course is
0:29:29 an inspiration
0:29:30 in his own
0:29:30 right and
0:29:31 highly knowledgeable
0:29:32 so he’s
0:29:33 helping as
0:29:33 well
0:29:34 I used to
0:29:35 say no
0:29:36 matter how
0:29:37 fine and
0:29:38 how pale
0:29:39 the thread
0:29:39 that I
0:29:40 give you
0:29:40 if you
0:29:41 don’t weave
0:29:42 it with
0:29:42 care into
0:29:43 the tapestry
0:29:44 the tapestry
0:29:45 will be in
0:29:45 some way
0:29:46 threadbare
0:29:47 what I’m
0:29:48 talking about
0:29:48 that’s that’s
0:29:49 sort of more
0:29:50 of a silly
0:29:51 poetic way
0:29:51 to say
0:29:52 you’re only
0:29:53 as good as
0:29:53 your weakest
0:29:55 link and
0:29:55 in our case
0:29:56 we literally
0:29:57 were linking
0:29:57 right hand
0:29:58 made chain
0:29:59 mail 12
0:29:59 and a half
0:30:00 million links
0:30:01 over three
0:30:01 and a half
0:30:03 years and
0:30:04 chain mail is
0:30:05 only as good
0:30:05 as how
0:30:06 well you
0:30:07 glue the
0:30:07 top link
0:30:08 on your
0:30:08 shoulder
0:30:09 and whether
0:30:10 the chain
0:30:10 mail is going
0:30:11 to fall
0:30:11 off you
0:30:12 so trying
0:30:13 to get
0:30:14 us
0:30:15 collectively
0:30:16 myself and
0:30:17 my wife
0:30:17 and our
0:30:18 team to
0:30:19 believe that
0:30:19 we could
0:30:20 do it
0:30:21 didn’t
0:30:21 require
0:30:23 because there
0:30:23 is a
0:30:25 I’m sure
0:30:25 it exists
0:30:25 in other
0:30:26 countries but
0:30:27 it is a
0:30:27 fundamental
0:30:28 part of
0:30:29 New Zealand
0:30:30 I think
0:30:30 it’s because
0:30:30 we’re a
0:30:30 young
0:30:31 nation
0:30:31 we’re at
0:30:32 the back
0:30:33 quarters of
0:30:33 the world
0:30:33 a long
0:30:34 way from
0:30:35 marketplaces
0:30:36 where you
0:30:36 can buy
0:30:37 components
0:30:38 to fix
0:30:38 your
0:30:39 tractor
0:30:40 so there
0:30:41 is this
0:30:42 intense
0:30:42 can-do
0:30:43 attitude
0:30:44 that still
0:30:45 exists today
0:30:46 thankfully
0:30:47 we hire
0:30:47 people that
0:30:48 come with
0:30:49 that beautiful
0:30:50 can-do
0:30:50 attitude
0:30:52 and we
0:30:52 were able
0:30:53 to benefit
0:30:54 and bottle
0:30:55 that so
0:30:56 significantly
0:30:57 on those
0:30:58 three films
0:30:59 and the
0:31:01 overjoyed
0:31:01 nature of
0:31:02 knowing that
0:31:02 you’re trying
0:31:03 to prove
0:31:03 something
0:31:04 prove that
0:31:05 New Zealand
0:31:06 could do
0:31:06 it
0:31:06 that we
0:31:07 could stamp
0:31:08 our mark
0:31:08 on the
0:31:09 world stage
0:31:10 that was
0:31:11 really important
0:31:11 to us
0:31:12 to do
0:31:13 justice to
0:31:13 Tolkien’s
0:31:14 writing was
0:31:15 really important
0:31:15 to us
0:31:16 to meet
0:31:17 Peter Jackson’s
0:31:18 vision was
0:31:19 really important
0:31:21 and to make
0:31:21 sure that we
0:31:22 had really
0:31:23 good fun
0:31:23 that didn’t
0:31:24 mean that it
0:31:25 wasn’t
0:31:25 brutally
0:31:26 challenging
0:31:27 it was
0:31:27 but at no
0:31:28 point in the
0:31:29 seven and a
0:31:30 half years
0:31:31 did I
0:31:31 ever
0:31:32 think that
0:31:33 I didn’t
0:31:33 want to be
0:31:34 doing it
0:31:35 that was
0:31:35 really
0:31:37 a special
0:31:38 part of
0:31:39 that experience
0:31:41 work is
0:31:41 more fun
0:31:42 than fun
0:31:43 what are
0:31:43 the other
0:31:44 tenets you
0:31:44 mentioned for
0:31:45 love of
0:31:46 oneself
0:31:47 love of
0:31:48 what you
0:31:49 do love
0:31:49 of who
0:31:49 you do
0:31:50 it with
0:31:50 and love
0:31:51 of who
0:31:51 you do
0:31:51 it for
0:31:53 that is
0:31:53 as a
0:31:53 father
0:31:54 of a
0:31:55 family
0:31:55 well as
0:31:56 a husband
0:31:57 or
0:31:57 partner
0:31:58 to a
0:31:58 loved
0:31:58 one
0:32:00 a father
0:32:00 or mother
0:32:01 to a
0:32:01 family
0:32:02 a president
0:32:03 of a
0:32:03 country
0:32:04 a CEO
0:32:05 of a
0:32:05 business
0:32:06 if you
0:32:07 can’t find
0:32:08 those four
0:32:09 tenets
0:32:09 obviously the
0:32:10 first one
0:32:10 love of
0:32:11 yourself
0:32:11 love of
0:32:12 what you
0:32:12 do
0:32:12 you’ve
0:32:13 got to
0:32:13 love
0:32:14 being a
0:32:14 parent
0:32:14 you’ve
0:32:15 got to
0:32:15 love
0:32:15 being
0:32:16 a
0:32:16 lover
0:32:17 a
0:32:17 husband
0:32:18 a
0:32:18 wife
0:32:18 a
0:32:19 partner
0:32:20 you
0:32:20 have
0:32:21 to
0:32:21 love
0:32:22 the
0:32:22 people
0:32:22 that
0:32:22 you
0:32:22 do
0:32:23 it
0:32:23 for
0:32:23 it
0:32:24 is
0:32:24 so
0:32:25 easy
0:32:25 to become
0:32:26 cynical
0:32:27 about
0:32:27 your
0:32:28 audience
0:32:28 or
0:32:28 your
0:32:29 fans
0:32:29 or
0:32:30 your
0:32:30 family
0:32:31 or
0:32:32 the
0:32:32 person
0:32:33 working
0:32:34 above
0:32:34 you
0:32:34 right
0:32:35 but
0:32:35 that’s
0:32:36 who
0:32:36 you’re
0:32:36 trying
0:32:37 to
0:32:37 capture
0:32:38 up
0:32:38 in
0:32:38 your
0:32:38 passion
0:32:39 for
0:32:39 what
0:32:39 you
0:32:39 do
0:32:40 and
0:32:40 you
0:32:40 know
0:32:40 the
0:32:41 other
0:32:41 one’s
0:32:41 very
0:32:42 obvious
0:32:42 so
0:32:42 that’s
0:32:43 how
0:32:43 I
0:32:43 think
0:32:43 of
0:32:43 things
0:32:44 very
0:32:44 simply
0:32:44 and
0:32:45 that’s
0:32:45 after
0:32:46 30
0:32:47 plus
0:32:47 years
0:32:47 of
0:32:48 working
0:32:48 it
0:32:49 started
0:32:49 to
0:32:49 congeal
0:32:50 that
0:32:50 that’s
0:32:51 thinking
0:32:51 about
0:32:51 all
0:32:52 these
0:32:52 things
0:32:52 that you
0:32:53 might
0:32:53 think
0:32:53 about
0:32:54 that’s
0:32:54 the
0:32:55 things
0:32:55 that
0:32:55 drive
0:32:55 you
0:32:56 forward
0:32:56 I
0:32:56 think
0:32:56 I’ve
0:32:57 settled
0:32:57 on
0:32:57 those
0:32:58 four
0:32:58 simple
0:32:59 and
0:32:59 try
0:32:59 not
0:32:59 to
0:33:00 be
0:33:00 a
0:33:00 dickhead
0:33:01 is
0:33:02 maybe
0:33:02 the
0:33:02 fifth
0:33:03 there
0:33:05 are
0:33:06 thousands
0:33:06 of
0:33:06 self
0:33:07 help
0:33:07 books
0:33:07 I’ve
0:33:07 actually
0:33:08 only
0:33:08 read
0:33:08 one
0:33:08 of
0:33:09 them
0:33:09 I
0:33:09 can’t
0:33:10 remember
0:33:10 the
0:33:10 title
0:33:11 even
0:33:12 someone
0:33:13 said
0:33:13 to
0:33:13 me
0:33:14 once
0:33:14 you
0:33:14 only
0:33:15 need
0:33:15 one
0:33:16 page
0:33:16 a
0:33:16 one
0:33:17 page
0:33:17 book
0:33:18 on
0:33:19 self
0:33:19 help
0:33:20 and
0:33:20 it’s
0:33:20 simply
0:33:22 and
0:33:22 there’s
0:33:22 only
0:33:22 one
0:33:23 line
0:33:23 and
0:33:23 it
0:33:23 just
0:33:24 says
0:33:24 just
0:33:24 don’t
0:33:24 be
0:33:24 a
0:33:25 dickhead
0:33:26 right
0:33:26 and
0:33:26 if
0:33:26 you
0:33:27 put
0:33:27 that
0:33:27 against
0:33:28 almost
0:33:28 anything
0:33:29 in
0:33:29 life
0:33:30 it’s
0:33:30 actually
0:33:30 correct
0:33:31 if
0:33:31 we
0:33:32 understand
0:33:32 collectively
0:33:33 what
0:33:34 being a
0:33:34 dickhead
0:33:34 means
0:33:36 and
0:33:36 no
0:33:37 doubt
0:33:37 I
0:33:38 fall
0:33:38 foul
0:33:38 of
0:33:38 that
0:33:39 and
0:33:40 invariably
0:33:40 am
0:33:41 sometimes
0:33:42 you know
0:33:42 we all
0:33:42 are
0:33:43 we can’t
0:33:43 it’s
0:33:44 very hard
0:33:44 to not
0:33:44 be
0:33:45 but you
0:33:45 try
0:33:46 really
0:33:46 hard
0:33:47 not
0:33:47 to
0:33:47 be
0:33:48 hey
0:33:48 Greg
0:33:48 yeah
0:33:49 yeah
0:33:49 trying
0:33:50 always
0:33:53 have I
0:33:53 answered
0:33:53 your
0:33:54 question
0:33:54 well
0:33:54 enough
0:33:54 I’ve
0:33:55 sort
0:33:55 of
0:33:55 been
0:33:55 a
0:33:55 bit
0:33:56 fringed
0:33:56 around
0:33:56 the
0:33:57 outsides
0:33:57 of it
0:33:57 no
0:33:58 you
0:33:58 did
0:33:59 I’ll
0:33:59 have
0:33:59 probably
0:34:00 just
0:34:00 one
0:34:00 or
0:34:00 two
0:34:00 follow
0:34:01 ups
0:34:01 related
0:34:01 to
0:34:01 that
0:34:02 but
0:34:02 before
0:34:02 I
0:34:02 get
0:34:02 to
0:34:03 that
0:34:03 you
0:34:03 mentioned
0:34:03 the
0:34:04 can
0:34:04 do
0:34:04 attitude
0:34:05 of
0:34:05 a
0:34:06 fairly
0:34:06 remote
0:34:06 country
0:34:07 right
0:34:07 and
0:34:07 the
0:34:08 resourcefulness
0:34:09 that
0:34:10 engenders
0:34:11 and
0:34:11 and
0:34:11 and
0:34:11 I’m
0:34:11 wondering
0:34:12 if
0:34:12 there
0:34:12 are
0:34:12 any
0:34:12 other
0:34:13 advantages
0:34:14 that
0:34:14 you
0:34:14 can
0:34:15 think
0:34:15 of
0:34:16 of
0:34:16 doing
0:34:17 this
0:34:17 whether
0:34:17 it’s
0:34:18 the
0:34:18 workshop
0:34:18 or
0:34:19 lord
0:34:19 of
0:34:19 the
0:34:19 rings
0:34:19 or
0:34:19 the
0:34:20 combination
0:34:20 of
0:34:20 the
0:34:20 two
0:34:21 in
0:34:22 New
0:34:22 Zealand
0:34:23 are
0:34:23 there
0:34:23 advantages
0:34:24 that
0:34:24 you
0:34:24 can
0:34:24 think
0:34:24 of
0:34:25 Tim
0:34:26 when
0:34:26 I’m
0:34:26 talking
0:34:27 I’m
0:34:27 talking
0:34:27 about
0:34:28 where
0:34:28 to
0:34:28 workshop
0:34:29 we
0:34:29 were
0:34:29 a
0:34:30 small
0:34:32 component
0:34:32 of
0:34:32 the
0:34:33 overarching
0:34:34 endeavour
0:34:35 of
0:34:35 making
0:34:35 lord
0:34:35 of
0:34:36 the
0:34:36 rings
0:34:36 right
0:34:37 we’re
0:34:37 very
0:34:37 proud
0:34:37 of
0:34:37 the
0:34:38 piece
0:34:38 we
0:34:38 played
0:34:38 and
0:34:39 we
0:34:39 did
0:34:39 a
0:34:39 lot
0:34:39 on
0:34:40 it
0:34:40 but
0:34:40 the
0:34:41 art
0:34:41 department
0:34:41 the
0:34:42 costuming
0:34:42 department
0:34:42 the
0:34:43 props
0:34:43 department
0:34:43 the
0:34:43 camera
0:34:44 department
0:34:44 the
0:34:44 grips
0:34:45 department
0:34:45 the
0:34:46 directing
0:34:46 department
0:34:47 etc
0:34:47 etc
0:34:48 the
0:34:48 miniatures
0:34:49 there
0:34:49 was
0:34:50 phenomenal
0:34:50 number
0:34:50 of
0:34:51 people
0:34:52 all
0:34:53 focused
0:34:53 on
0:34:53 the
0:34:53 same
0:34:54 mission
0:34:54 and
0:34:55 I’ve
0:34:55 actually
0:34:55 said
0:34:56 in the
0:34:56 past
0:34:56 Lord
0:34:56 of
0:34:57 the
0:34:57 Rings
0:34:57 wasn’t
0:34:57 made
0:34:58 by
0:34:58 a
0:34:59 director
0:34:59 it
0:35:00 wasn’t
0:35:00 made
0:35:00 by
0:35:00 a
0:35:01 film
0:35:01 studio
0:35:01 it
0:35:02 wasn’t
0:35:02 made
0:35:02 by
0:35:02 a
0:35:02 film
0:35:03 crew
0:35:03 it
0:35:03 was
0:35:03 made
0:35:03 by
0:35:04 a
0:35:04 nation
0:35:04 of
0:35:05 people
0:35:05 coming
0:35:06 together
0:35:06 in
0:35:06 that
0:35:07 moment
0:35:08 to
0:35:09 try
0:35:09 and
0:35:10 make
0:35:10 Lord
0:35:10 of
0:35:10 the
0:35:10 Rings
0:35:11 in
0:35:11 New
0:35:12 Zealand
0:35:12 for
0:35:12 the
0:35:12 world
0:35:13 that
0:35:13 speaks
0:35:13 to
0:35:14 the
0:35:15 phenomenal
0:35:15 number
0:35:16 of
0:35:16 people
0:35:16 that
0:35:17 Peter
0:35:17 and
0:35:17 his
0:35:18 producer
0:35:19 drew
0:35:19 into
0:35:19 the
0:35:20 collaboration
0:35:20 of
0:35:21 making
0:35:21 Lord
0:35:21 of
0:35:21 the
0:35:21 Rings
0:35:22 I mean
0:35:22 the
0:35:23 government
0:35:23 the
0:35:24 military
0:35:26 our
0:35:26 tourism
0:35:27 department
0:35:28 I think
0:35:29 everyone
0:35:29 felt
0:35:30 you would
0:35:30 have to
0:35:31 have been
0:35:31 pretty
0:35:32 cynical
0:35:32 at the
0:35:32 time
0:35:33 to
0:35:33 have
0:35:33 not
0:35:34 felt
0:35:34 a
0:35:34 certain
0:35:35 level
0:35:35 of
0:35:35 pride
0:35:36 in
0:35:36 what
0:35:36 Peter
0:35:36 was
0:35:37 trying
0:35:37 to
0:35:37 do
0:35:37 in
0:35:37 our
0:35:38 country
0:35:39 and
0:35:39 get
0:35:39 behind
0:35:40 it
0:35:40 and
0:35:40 a
0:35:40 lot
0:35:40 of
0:35:41 people
0:35:41 benefited
0:35:42 because
0:35:42 of
0:35:42 it
0:35:43 the
0:35:45 driving
0:35:45 desire
0:35:46 to
0:35:47 that
0:35:47 term
0:35:48 punch
0:35:48 above
0:35:48 your
0:35:48 weight
0:35:49 I don’t
0:35:49 specifically
0:35:50 like
0:35:50 that
0:35:50 term
0:35:50 but
0:35:51 that’s
0:35:51 a
0:35:51 well
0:35:52 used
0:35:52 one
0:35:52 that
0:35:53 speaks
0:35:53 to
0:35:53 it
0:35:53 New
0:35:54 Zealanders
0:35:54 do
0:35:55 have
0:35:55 a
0:35:56 burning
0:35:57 desire
0:35:57 to
0:35:57 try
0:35:58 and
0:35:59 achieve
0:35:59 great
0:36:00 things
0:36:00 regardless
0:36:01 of
0:36:01 where
0:36:01 we
0:36:02 may
0:36:03 come
0:36:03 from
0:36:04 and
0:36:04 the
0:36:04 scale
0:36:04 of
0:36:05 our
0:36:05 country
0:36:06 that
0:36:06 should
0:36:06 not
0:36:07 restrict
0:36:07 you
0:36:07 at
0:36:08 all
0:36:08 and
0:36:08 you
0:36:08 only
0:36:09 need
0:36:09 to
0:36:09 look
0:36:09 at
0:36:09 our
0:36:10 sports
0:36:10 teams
0:36:11 see
0:36:11 that
0:36:12 whether
0:36:12 it’s
0:36:12 our
0:36:13 national
0:36:13 ballet
0:36:14 orchestra
0:36:15 contemporary
0:36:16 dance
0:36:16 poets
0:36:17 writers
0:36:18 painters
0:36:19 artists
0:36:19 in
0:36:20 general
0:36:20 never
0:36:21 mind
0:36:21 the
0:36:21 film
0:36:22 industry
0:36:22 or the
0:36:22 creative
0:36:23 industries
0:36:24 we
0:36:24 we
0:36:24 have
0:36:25 technology
0:36:26 companies
0:36:26 in
0:36:26 New
0:36:26 Zealand
0:36:27 that
0:36:27 are
0:36:27 competing
0:36:28 with
0:36:28 the
0:36:28 best
0:36:28 in
0:36:29 the
0:36:29 world
0:36:30 rocket
0:36:30 lab
0:36:30 comes
0:36:31 to
0:36:31 mind
0:36:32 that
0:36:32 are
0:36:32 doing
0:36:33 astounding
0:36:34 things
0:36:34 on
0:36:35 a
0:36:35 fraction
0:36:35 of
0:36:35 the
0:36:36 budget
0:36:36 you know
0:36:36 the
0:36:37 robots
0:36:37 that
0:36:37 we’re
0:36:38 building
0:36:38 in
0:36:38 our
0:36:39 workshop
0:36:39 right
0:36:39 now
0:36:40 probably
0:36:40 at
0:36:41 a
0:36:42 500th
0:36:42 to
0:36:42 a
0:36:43 thousandth
0:36:43 of
0:36:44 the
0:36:44 investment
0:36:45 cost
0:36:45 of
0:36:45 some
0:36:45 of
0:36:45 the
0:36:46 robots
0:36:46 that
0:36:46 we’re
0:36:47 seeing
0:36:47 online
0:36:48 but
0:36:48 we’re
0:36:48 pulling
0:36:49 it
0:36:49 off
0:36:49 we’re
0:36:49 getting
0:36:50 there
0:36:50 slowly
0:36:50 but
0:36:51 getting
0:36:51 there
0:36:51 with
0:36:52 five
0:36:52 people
0:36:53 and
0:36:53 you know
0:36:53 the
0:36:54 money
0:36:54 that
0:36:54 we
0:36:54 can
0:36:55 save
0:36:55 from
0:36:56 projects
0:36:56 we’re
0:36:56 doing
0:36:57 it’s
0:36:57 that
0:36:58 attitude
0:36:58 I
0:36:59 think
0:36:59 that
0:37:00 plays
0:37:00 a
0:37:00 big
0:37:00 part
0:37:00 of
0:37:01 it
0:37:01 Peter
0:37:02 Jackson
0:37:02 mustn’t
0:37:03 be
0:37:03 missed
0:37:03 in
0:37:04 this
0:37:04 equation
0:37:05 to
0:37:05 his
0:37:06 self
0:37:06 belief
0:37:07 and
0:37:07 his
0:37:08 just
0:37:08 sheer
0:37:10 drive
0:37:10 I’ve
0:37:11 never
0:37:11 ever
0:37:12 seen
0:37:12 Peter
0:37:13 quiver
0:37:14 in
0:37:15 uncertainty
0:37:16 to
0:37:17 fluctuate
0:37:17 in a
0:37:18 sense
0:37:18 of
0:37:18 uncertainty
0:37:19 that
0:37:19 he
0:37:19 isn’t
0:37:20 sure
0:37:20 of
0:37:20 what
0:37:20 he’s
0:37:21 doing
0:37:21 that
0:37:21 is
0:37:22 an
0:37:22 amazing
0:37:23 thing
0:37:23 to
0:37:24 work
0:37:24 around
0:37:25 because
0:37:25 if
0:37:25 your
0:37:26 leader
0:37:26 is
0:37:27 confident
0:37:27 then
0:37:28 you know
0:37:29 and there’s
0:37:29 a lovely
0:37:30 quote
0:37:30 the
0:37:31 emperor
0:37:32 will not
0:37:32 remember
0:37:33 you
0:37:33 for
0:37:33 your
0:37:34 medals
0:37:34 or
0:37:34 your
0:37:35 diplomas
0:37:35 he
0:37:35 will
0:37:36 only
0:37:36 remember
0:37:36 you
0:37:37 for
0:37:37 your
0:37:37 scars
0:37:38 and
0:37:39 I
0:37:39 think
0:37:40 there
0:37:40 is
0:37:41 a
0:37:42 mentality
0:37:42 of
0:37:42 that
0:37:42 very
0:37:43 much
0:37:43 in
0:37:43 our
0:37:44 country
0:37:44 you
0:37:44 just
0:37:45 gotta
0:37:45 knuckle
0:37:46 down
0:37:46 and
0:37:46 do
0:37:46 it
0:37:47 right
0:37:47 grit
0:37:48 is
0:37:48 a
0:37:49 important
0:37:49 component
0:37:50 in
0:37:51 the
0:37:51 journey
0:37:52 not
0:37:52 the
0:37:53 accolades
0:37:53 at
0:37:53 the
0:37:53 end
0:37:54 it’s
0:37:54 the
0:37:55 task
0:37:55 of
0:37:55 getting
0:37:55 there
0:37:56 that
0:37:56 is
0:37:57 seen
0:37:57 as
0:37:57 equal
0:37:58 in
0:37:58 accomplishment
0:37:59 as
0:37:59 winning
0:38:00 baubles
0:38:05 and
0:38:05 now
0:38:05 here
0:38:05 are
0:38:06 the
0:38:06 bios
0:38:06 for
0:38:06 all
0:38:06 the
0:38:07 guests
0:38:08 my
0:38:08 guest
0:38:09 today
0:38:09 is
0:38:09 a
0:38:10 dear
0:38:10 friend
0:38:10 I’ve
0:38:10 wanted
0:38:11 to
0:38:11 have
0:38:11 him
0:38:11 on
0:38:11 the
0:38:11 podcast
0:38:12 for
0:38:12 a
0:38:12 very
0:38:12 long
0:38:12 time
0:38:13 Craig
0:38:14 Maud
0:38:14 Craig
0:38:15 Maud
0:38:15 M-O-D
0:38:16 he is
0:38:17 a
0:38:17 writer
0:38:17 photographer
0:38:18 and
0:38:18 walker
0:38:19 we’ll
0:38:19 talk
0:38:19 about
0:38:19 that
0:38:20 a
0:38:20 lot
0:38:20 living
0:38:20 in
0:38:21 Tokyo
0:38:21 and
0:38:22 Kamakura
0:38:22 Japan
0:38:23 he
0:38:23 is
0:38:23 the
0:38:23 author
0:38:23 of
0:38:24 Things
0:38:24 Become
0:38:25 Other
0:38:25 Things
0:38:26 and
0:38:26 Kissa
0:38:26 by
0:38:27 Kissa
0:38:28 K-I-S-S-A
0:38:29 don’t worry
0:38:29 about it
0:38:29 we’ll get
0:38:30 to it
0:38:30 he also
0:38:31 writes the
0:38:31 newsletters
0:38:32 Roden
0:38:33 and Ridgeline
0:38:33 and has
0:38:33 contributed
0:38:34 to the
0:38:34 New York
0:38:34 Times
0:38:35 the
0:38:35 Atlantic
0:38:36 Wired
0:38:36 and
0:38:36 more
0:38:37 he has
0:38:37 walked
0:38:38 thousands
0:38:38 of
0:38:39 miles
0:38:39 across
0:38:39 Japan
0:38:40 in
0:38:40 every
0:38:41 conceivable
0:38:41 place
0:38:42 and
0:38:42 since
0:38:43 2016
0:38:44 he has
0:38:44 been
0:38:44 co-running
0:38:45 walk and
0:38:46 talks
0:38:46 with
0:38:46 Kevin
0:38:47 Kelly
0:38:48 perhaps
0:38:48 the
0:38:48 most
0:38:49 interesting
0:38:49 man
0:38:49 in
0:38:49 the
0:38:49 world
0:38:50 in
0:38:50 various
0:38:51 places
0:38:51 around
0:38:51 the
0:38:52 world
0:38:52 the
0:38:53 Cotswolds
0:38:53 Northern
0:38:54 Thailand
0:38:55 Bali
0:38:56 Southern
0:38:56 China
0:38:57 Japan
0:38:58 Spain
0:38:58 which
0:38:59 includes
0:38:59 the
0:38:59 Portuguese
0:39:00 and
0:39:00 French
0:39:00 Caminos
0:39:01 and
0:39:01 much
0:39:02 more
0:39:02 today’s
0:39:03 episode
0:39:03 is
0:39:04 wide
0:39:04 ranging
0:39:05 and
0:39:05 I
0:39:05 had
0:39:05 so
0:39:05 much
0:39:06 fun
0:39:06 with
0:39:06 this
0:39:06 we
0:39:06 ended
0:39:07 up
0:39:07 discussing
0:39:07 Craig’s
0:39:08 early
0:39:08 life
0:39:09 his
0:39:09 path
0:39:09 to
0:39:10 Japan
0:39:10 his
0:39:11 struggles
0:39:11 with
0:39:12 self-worth
0:39:12 and
0:39:13 alcoholism
0:39:13 and how
0:39:14 he
0:39:14 overcame
0:39:15 both
0:39:15 of them
0:39:16 creative
0:39:16 development
0:39:17 his
0:39:18 writing
0:39:18 experiments
0:39:19 his
0:39:19 initial
0:39:20 experiences
0:39:20 with
0:39:20 walking
0:39:21 and
0:39:21 writing
0:39:21 and
0:39:21 so
0:39:22 much
0:39:22 more
0:39:22 I
0:39:23 really
0:39:23 think
0:39:23 you
0:39:23 will
0:39:23 get
0:39:24 a lot
0:39:24 out
0:39:24 of
0:39:24 this
0:39:25 conversation
0:39:25 as I
0:39:25 did
0:39:25 I
0:39:26 took
0:39:26 copious
0:39:26 notes
0:39:27 and I
0:39:28 also
0:39:28 decided
0:39:29 to keep
0:39:29 some
0:39:29 of the
0:39:29 behind
0:39:30 the
0:39:30 scenes
0:39:30 banter
0:39:31 before
0:39:31 the
0:39:31 interview
0:39:32 in
0:39:32 the
0:39:33 recording
0:39:33 that
0:39:33 you’re
0:39:33 going
0:39:33 to
0:39:33 hear
0:39:34 which
0:39:34 I
0:39:34 thought
0:39:34 might
0:39:35 be
0:39:35 fun
0:39:36 for
0:39:37 shits
0:39:37 and giggles
0:39:37 just
0:39:38 for the
0:39:38 fun
0:39:38 of it
0:39:38 why
0:39:38 not
0:39:39 you
0:39:39 can
0:39:39 find
0:39:39 Craig
0:39:40 mod
0:39:40 at
0:39:42 craigmod.com
0:39:42 that’s
0:39:42 the
0:39:43 hq
0:39:43 for
0:39:44 everything
0:39:44 craigmod
0:39:46 c-r-a-i-g-m-o-d
0:39:47 dot com
0:39:47 you can
0:39:47 find him
0:39:47 on
0:39:48 instagram
0:39:48 at
0:39:49 craigmod
0:39:49 and
0:39:50 on
0:39:50 blue sky
0:39:51 as well
0:39:52 craigmod.com
0:39:56 today my
0:39:57 guest is
0:39:58 ev
0:39:58 williams
0:39:59 and what
0:39:59 a story
0:40:00 he has
0:40:00 ev
0:40:01 is the
0:40:01 co-founder
0:40:02 and chairman
0:40:02 of
0:40:02 mosey
0:40:03 a new
0:40:03 social
0:40:04 network
0:40:04 that helps
0:40:04 you connect
0:40:05 in person
0:40:06 with the
0:40:06 people you
0:40:07 care
0:40:07 about
0:40:08 most
0:40:08 over the
0:40:09 past 25
0:40:09 years
0:40:10 ev
0:40:11 co-founded
0:40:11 several
0:40:11 companies
0:40:12 that have
0:40:12 helped
0:40:12 shape
0:40:13 the
0:40:13 modern
0:40:13 internet
0:40:14 including
0:40:15 blogger
0:40:15 medium
0:40:16 and
0:40:16 twitter
0:40:16 ev
0:40:17 is also
0:40:17 the
0:40:17 co-founder
0:40:17 of
0:40:18 obvious
0:40:18 ventures
0:40:19 an
0:40:19 investment
0:40:19 firm
0:40:19 that
0:40:20 focuses
0:40:20 on
0:40:20 world
0:40:21 positive
0:40:21 companies
0:40:22 addressing
0:40:23 major
0:40:23 systemic
0:40:24 problems
0:40:24 ev
0:40:25 grew up
0:40:25 on a
0:40:25 farm
0:40:25 in
0:40:26 clarkes
0:40:26 nebraska
0:40:26 has
0:40:26 has
0:40:27 two
0:40:27 sons
0:40:27 and
0:40:27 lives
0:40:28 mostly
0:40:28 in
0:40:28 the
0:40:28 bay
0:40:29 area
0:40:29 this
0:40:30 particular
0:40:30 episode
0:40:31 this
0:40:31 conversation
0:40:32 was recorded
0:40:32 live
0:40:33 in
0:40:33 austin
0:40:34 texas
0:40:35 at
0:40:35 the
0:40:36 dignation
0:40:37 relaunch
0:40:38 that’s
0:40:38 dignation
0:40:39 dot show
0:40:40 for the
0:40:40 show
0:40:40 itself
0:40:41 and
0:40:41 that is
0:40:41 where
0:40:42 dig.com
0:40:43 was
0:40:43 relaunched
0:40:44 it was
0:40:44 recently
0:40:45 acquired
0:40:45 by its
0:40:46 original
0:40:46 founder
0:40:46 my good
0:40:46 friend
0:40:47 kevin
0:40:47 rose
0:40:48 and
0:40:48 reddit
0:40:49 co-founder
0:40:49 alexis
0:40:50 ohanian
0:40:50 formerly
0:40:51 arch
0:40:51 nemeses
0:40:52 but they
0:40:52 have
0:40:53 joined
0:40:53 forces
0:40:54 and
0:40:54 invited
0:40:54 me
0:40:54 along
0:40:55 for
0:40:55 all
0:40:55 the
0:40:55 fun
0:40:55 and
0:40:56 surprises
0:40:56 as
0:40:57 they
0:40:57 celebrated
0:40:58 the
0:40:58 relaunch
0:40:59 go to
0:40:59 dig.com
0:41:00 and sign
0:41:00 up to get
0:41:01 early access
0:41:01 when the
0:41:02 invites
0:41:02 go out
0:41:03 one more
0:41:03 time
0:41:04 dig.com
0:41:04 that’s
0:41:06 dig.com
0:41:06 you can
0:41:07 find
0:41:07 mosey
0:41:08 that is
0:41:09 ev’s
0:41:10 newest
0:41:10 creation
0:41:10 at
0:41:11 mosey.app
0:41:12 that’s
0:41:12 available on
0:41:13 ios right
0:41:13 now
0:41:14 you can
0:41:14 find
0:41:14 obvious
0:41:15 ventures
0:41:15 at
0:41:16 obvious.com
0:41:16 and you
0:41:17 can find
0:41:17 him
0:41:17 on
0:41:18 twitter
0:41:19 that is
0:41:20 also known
0:41:20 as
0:41:20 x
0:41:21 at
0:41:21 ev
0:41:22 at
0:41:22 e
0:41:27 today
0:41:28 i am
0:41:28 interviewing
0:41:29 two people
0:41:29 i would
0:41:30 consider
0:41:31 decathletes
0:41:31 of
0:41:32 creativity
0:41:33 the first
0:41:33 is
0:41:34 richard
0:41:34 taylor
0:41:35 he is
0:41:35 co-founder
0:41:35 and
0:41:36 creative
0:41:36 lead
0:41:36 at
0:41:37 weta
0:41:37 workshop
0:41:38 which
0:41:38 he runs
0:41:38 with his
0:41:39 wife
0:41:39 and
0:41:39 co-founder
0:41:40 tanya
0:41:40 roger
0:41:41 weta
0:41:41 workshop
0:41:41 is a
0:41:42 concept
0:41:42 design
0:41:43 studio
0:41:43 and
0:41:44 manufacturing
0:41:44 facility
0:41:44 that
0:41:45 services
0:41:45 the
0:41:45 world’s
0:41:46 creative
0:41:46 and
0:41:46 entertainment
0:41:47 industries
0:41:47 and
0:41:47 what
0:41:47 you’ll
0:41:48 see
0:41:48 is
0:41:48 just
0:41:48 how
0:41:49 much
0:41:49 they
0:41:49 do
0:41:50 believe
0:41:50 it
0:41:50 or
0:41:50 not
0:41:50 it’s
0:41:51 started
0:41:51 by
0:41:51 them
0:41:52 assembling
0:41:52 things
0:41:52 and
0:41:52 making
0:41:53 things
0:41:54 on top
0:41:54 of
0:41:54 their
0:41:55 bed
0:41:55 we’ll
0:41:55 get
0:41:55 to
0:41:56 that
0:41:56 they’ve
0:41:56 been
0:41:57 recognized
0:41:57 with
0:41:57 five
0:41:58 academy
0:41:58 awards
0:41:59 four
0:41:59 bafta
0:41:59 awards
0:42:00 three
0:42:00 theo
0:42:01 awards
0:42:01 and more
0:42:02 than 30
0:42:02 other national
0:42:03 and international
0:42:04 accolades
0:42:05 their practical
0:42:05 and special
0:42:06 effects
0:42:06 have helped
0:42:07 define the
0:42:07 visual
0:42:07 identities
0:42:08 of some
0:42:08 of the
0:42:09 most
0:42:09 recognizable
0:42:10 franchises
0:42:10 in film
0:42:11 and television
0:42:12 you will
0:42:12 you will
0:42:12 know
0:42:12 some
0:42:12 of
0:42:13 them
0:42:13 including
0:42:13 the
0:42:14 lord
0:42:14 of
0:42:14 the
0:42:14 rings
0:42:14 planet
0:42:15 of
0:42:15 the
0:42:15 apes
0:42:16 superman
0:42:16 mad max
0:42:17 thor
0:42:17 megan
0:42:18 and love
0:42:19 death
0:42:19 and
0:42:19 robots
0:42:20 if you
0:42:20 haven’t
0:42:20 seen
0:42:20 love
0:42:20 death
0:42:21 and
0:42:21 robots
0:42:21 check
0:42:21 it
0:42:21 out
0:42:22 there
0:42:22 are
0:42:22 some
0:42:23 amazing
0:42:23 amazing
0:42:24 shorts
0:42:25 in addition
0:42:25 to that
0:42:25 they do
0:42:26 a few
0:42:26 other
0:42:26 things
0:42:27 get ready
0:42:27 for
0:42:27 this
0:42:27 what a
0:42:28 workshop
0:42:28 offers
0:42:29 tourism
0:42:29 and retail
0:42:30 experiences
0:42:30 consumer
0:42:31 products
0:42:31 and interactive
0:42:32 studio
0:42:32 public
0:42:33 sculptures
0:42:34 and private
0:42:34 commissions
0:42:35 they’ve also
0:42:35 done
0:42:35 augmented
0:42:36 reality
0:42:37 and
0:42:37 video
0:42:38 games
0:42:38 and all
0:42:38 sorts
0:42:38 of
0:42:38 things
0:42:39 richard
0:42:39 now
0:42:39 focuses
0:42:40 much
0:42:40 of
0:42:40 his
0:42:40 time
0:42:40 on
0:42:41 their
0:42:41 immersive
0:42:42 experiences
0:42:43 which I’ve
0:42:44 had the chance
0:42:44 to experience
0:42:45 first hand
0:42:45 I recommend
0:42:45 them
0:42:46 very highly
0:42:47 such as
0:42:47 the
0:42:48 Thea
0:42:48 award-winning
0:42:49 Gallipoli
0:42:50 the scale
0:42:50 of our
0:42:50 war
0:42:51 Weta
0:42:51 Workshop
0:42:52 Unleashed
0:42:53 and the
0:42:53 giant
0:42:54 atrium
0:42:54 installation
0:42:55 Aura
0:42:55 Forest
0:42:56 at
0:42:56 edge
0:42:57 of the
0:42:57 sky
0:42:58 next
0:42:58 we have
0:42:59 Greg
0:43:00 Broadmoore
0:43:00 Greg
0:43:00 is an
0:43:01 artist
0:43:01 and writer
0:43:01 who has
0:43:02 been part
0:43:02 of the
0:43:02 team
0:43:03 at
0:43:03 Weta
0:43:03 Workshop
0:43:04 for more
0:43:04 than 20
0:43:04 years
0:43:05 his design
0:43:06 and special
0:43:06 effects
0:43:06 credits
0:43:07 include
0:43:07 District
0:43:07 9
0:43:08 King Kong
0:43:09 Godzilla
0:43:09 The Adventures
0:43:10 of Tintin
0:43:11 and Avatar
0:43:12 and he is
0:43:12 the creator
0:43:13 of the
0:43:13 satirical
0:43:14 retro sci-fi
0:43:14 world
0:43:15 of Dr.
0:43:16 Gordbortz
0:43:17 featuring a
0:43:18 myriad of
0:43:18 collectibles
0:43:19 a world
0:43:19 touring
0:43:20 art exhibition
0:43:21 four books
0:43:22 and a game
0:43:22 for Weta’s
0:43:23 pioneering
0:43:23 spatial
0:43:24 computing
0:43:24 platform
0:43:25 most recently
0:43:26 Greg built
0:43:26 Weta’s
0:43:27 video game
0:43:27 division
0:43:28 and directed
0:43:28 multiple
0:43:29 Dr. G
0:43:29 video games
0:43:30 for Magic
0:43:30 Leap
0:43:31 he’s currently
0:43:31 working on
0:43:32 the graphic
0:43:33 novel series
0:43:33 One Path
0:43:34 set in a
0:43:34 brutal
0:43:35 prehistoric
0:43:35 world
0:43:36 where dinosaurs
0:43:36 and cave
0:43:37 women are
0:43:37 locked in a
0:43:38 grim battle
0:43:39 for supremacy
0:43:40 so these
0:43:41 two guys
0:43:42 have their
0:43:43 hands in a
0:43:43 lot
0:43:45 they
0:43:46 apply
0:43:46 creativity
0:43:47 to more
0:43:48 things than
0:43:48 I can count
0:43:49 and they do
0:43:50 it with
0:43:50 incredible
0:43:51 endurance
0:43:51 how do they
0:43:52 do it
0:43:52 that’s what
0:43:52 we’re going
0:43:53 to explore
0:43:54 and as you
0:43:55 listen to
0:43:55 this or as
0:43:56 you watch
0:43:56 it
0:43:56 you’re going
0:43:57 to hear
0:43:57 a lot
0:43:58 of moving
0:43:58 around
0:43:59 as they
0:44:00 pull things
0:44:00 from their
0:44:01 offices
0:44:02 from their
0:44:02 workshops
0:44:03 from around
0:44:04 where they’re
0:44:04 sitting
0:44:05 so it will
0:44:07 sound quite
0:44:08 hyperactive
0:44:09 and I suppose
0:44:10 that is
0:44:11 totally appropriate
0:44:13 given the
0:44:14 nature of what
0:44:15 we’re discussing
0:44:16 so I’ll leave it
0:44:17 at that
0:44:18 you can find
0:44:19 Weta Workshop
0:44:19 at
0:44:21 WetaNZ.com
0:44:21 slash
0:44:22 US
0:44:23 that’s
0:44:25 WetaNZ.com
0:44:25 of course
0:44:26 and on
0:44:27 Instagram
0:44:27 at
0:44:28 Weta Workshop
0:44:29 you can find
0:44:30 Greg at
0:44:31 Greg Broadmoor
0:44:31 that’s
0:44:33 B-R-O-A-D-M-O-R-E
0:44:34 Greg Broadmoor
0:44:35 dot com
0:44:35 and on
0:44:36 Instagram
0:44:36 at
0:44:36 Greg
0:44:37 underscore
0:44:38 Broadmoor
0:44:40 hey guys
0:44:40 this is
0:44:40 Tim again
0:44:41 just one
0:44:41 more thing
0:44:42 before you
0:44:43 take off
0:44:43 and that
0:44:43 is
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0:44:55 short newsletter
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0:44:58 up
0:44:58 easy to
0:44:59 cancel
0:45:00 it is
0:45:00 basically
0:45:01 a half
0:45:01 page
0:45:02 that I
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0:45:05 found or
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0:00:06 Henry Singleton has the best operating and capital deployment record in American business.
0:00:12 If one took the top 100 business school graduates and made a composite of their triumphs,
0:00:15 their record would not be as good as Singleton’s.
0:00:20 That’s a quote by Charlie Munger on Today’s Outlier.
0:00:37 Welcome to the Knowledge Project Podcast.
0:00:39 I’m your host, Shane Parrish.
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0:01:11 When the stock market crashed in the 1970s, most CEOs panicked.
0:01:13 Henry Singleton saw opportunity.
0:01:19 While other business leaders were caught out of position and desperately trying to save their companies,
0:01:24 Singleton quietly executed a strategy so unconventional that Warren Buffett later admitted,
0:01:27 I wish I had had the courage to do it myself.
0:01:32 That single decision created the most successful conglomerate in American history.
0:01:35 Singleton is the greatest businessman you’ve never heard of.
0:01:45 The chess prodigy-turned-mathematician-turned-CEO generated a 20.4% annual return over nearly three decades at Teledyne.
0:01:51 Even Warren Buffett was in awe, calling it the best operating and capital deployment record in American business, bar none.
0:01:54 Plenty of CEOs are smart.
0:01:55 Singleton was different.
0:01:56 He thought differently.
0:02:01 When acquisitions were cheap in the 1960s, he bought 130 companies.
0:02:04 When prices became irrational, he stopped on a dime.
0:02:10 Rather than chase growth for its own sake, he pivoted to buying back over 90% of Teledyne’s shares,
0:02:13 a move that Wall Street analysts couldn’t even comprehend.
0:02:16 He ignored conventional wisdom at every turn.
0:02:21 When other executives obsessed over quarterly earnings, Singleton focused on cash.
0:02:25 When they built centralized bureaucracies, he gave real authority to local managers.
0:02:29 When they chased headlines, he refused to give interviews.
0:02:36 Today, we explore how this insanely private man built one of the greatest business success stories of the 20th century,
0:02:43 not by following formulas, but by thinking clearly about value while others reacted to yesterday’s news.
0:02:49 Whether you’re making business decisions, managing investments, or simply trying to think more clearly about complex problems,
0:02:54 Singleton’s approach offers a powerful alternative to following the crowd.
0:03:01 Stick around until the end, and we’ll pull out some timeless lessons that you can use from Singleton’s playbook.
0:03:04 And check out our website for key takeaways from the episode.
0:03:07 It’s time to listen and learn.
0:03:12 This podcast is for entertainment purposes only.
0:03:20 What do you get when you mix a chess prodigy, a mathematician, a brilliant engineer,
0:03:24 and an investment savvy that literally made Warren Buffett jealous?
0:03:28 In the investment world, there are legends, and then there are legends.
0:03:32 Henry Singleton belongs firmly in the second category.
0:03:34 Italicized, bold, underlined.
0:03:39 He is the kind of person who appears in a field about once a generation.
0:03:45 He, more than perhaps anyone so far in this series, deserves the label of outlier.
0:03:50 Warren Buffett once said that Henry Singleton had the best operating and capital deployment record
0:03:52 in American business, bar none.
0:03:54 And the numbers back that up.
0:04:00 From 1963 to 1990, Teledyne, the company that Henry Singleton helped build from scratch,
0:04:06 delivered annual returns of 20.4%, while the S&P 500 managed a mere 8%.
0:04:15 If you’d invested $10,000 in Teledyne in 1963, by 1990, you’d have over $1.8 million.
0:04:22 What made Henry Singleton remarkable wasn’t just his returns, but how he got them.
0:04:27 He ignored the institutional imperative that compels people to imitate what others are doing.
0:04:32 He knew that if he wanted different results, he needed to do something different.
0:04:35 But he wasn’t just being contrarian for its own sake.
0:04:37 He was creating advantageous divergence.
0:04:40 Singleton was indifferent to criticism.
0:04:43 He avoided management conferences and consultants.
0:04:45 He didn’t offer guidance to Wall Street.
0:04:48 Instead, he followed the numbers ruthlessly.
0:04:54 He thought deeply about strategy and wasn’t afraid of dramatic pivots when circumstances changed.
0:05:00 Throughout the 1960s, Teledyne aggressively acquired more than 130 companies.
0:05:05 But by 1969, Henry Singleton saw the acquisition prices head soar beyond rational value.
0:05:11 Therefore, he slammed on the brakes, stunning Wall Street by making zero new deals.
0:05:15 He shifted his entire focus to internal management and cost control.
0:05:19 At the time, his decisions left Wall Street scratching their heads,
0:05:24 until years later when a strategic genius became apparent and they scrambled to copy him.
0:05:28 The media was mystified too, partly because Henry rarely gave interviews.
0:05:32 What kind of CEO wouldn’t want publicity, especially with his track record?
0:05:34 But Henry wasn’t doing it for attention.
0:05:35 He wanted to win.
0:05:37 To him, business was entertainment.
0:05:40 It was a fun but ultra-competitive game.
0:05:44 His objective, as he put it in a rare 1967 Forbes interview,
0:05:48 was to increase our rate of earnings faster than they do,
0:05:51 where they meant every other company in America.
0:05:55 Without a doubt, he succeeded like no one else.
0:05:57 Now, let’s see how.
0:06:03 Henry Singleton was born on a small ranch in Texas, where his family raised cotton and cattle.
0:06:07 Those rural beginnings gave him a lifelong love of land.
0:06:10 Decades later, he’d become one of America’s largest landowners.
0:06:14 But it was clear early on that the Texas soil wouldn’t define his future.
0:06:16 His extraordinary mind would.
0:06:20 From an early age, Singleton showed remarkable mathematical abilities.
0:06:25 These talents led him to MIT, where even amongst America’s brightest technical minds,
0:06:26 he stood out.
0:06:32 In 1939, he was on a three-man team that won the William Lau Putnam Prize,
0:06:34 an elite math competition.
0:06:37 It was MIT’s first time winning this award.
0:06:37 His teammate?
0:06:42 None other than the future Nobel physicist and outlier Richard Feynman.
0:06:44 Imagine competing against that pair.
0:06:47 The victory wasn’t just for academic bragging rights.
0:06:51 It proved Singleton could solve problems that stumped almost everyone else,
0:06:54 a talent that would define his business career.
0:06:57 But Singleton wasn’t just a theoretical thinker.
0:07:01 He had another passion that shaped his strategic mind, chess.
0:07:07 He became remarkably skilled, reaching a 2100 rating, just 100 points shy of master status.
0:07:11 A colleague at Teledyne, Tech Wilson, played chess with him regularly.
0:07:17 During these games, Singleton often sat with his back to the board, keeping the entire game in his head.
0:07:22 Wilson would call out his moves and Singleton would respond without seeing the physical pieces.
0:07:25 During one of these blindfolded games, Singleton suddenly said,
0:07:28 Tech, you told me the wrong move, three moves back.
0:07:32 His spatial awareness and memory were astonishing.
0:07:37 He could detect a discrepancy in a complex game that he couldn’t even see.
0:07:41 This ability to visualize complex systems, think multiple moves ahead,
0:07:47 recognize patterns, and maintain mental discipline would become hallmarks of his business approach.
0:07:52 After graduating MIT, Singleton’s first business role came in the 1950s
0:07:57 as a research associate at General Electric, where he worked on communication theory.
0:08:02 In 1951, he was recruited by Simon Ramo to join Hughes Aircraft in Los Angeles,
0:08:07 applying emerging digital technologies to aircraft control systems.
0:08:12 I had the pleasure of demonstrating a pilot training fire control simulator to Howard Hughes
0:08:13 one day, Singleton later recalled.
0:08:18 Howard would only come by to see us at night and always unannounced.
0:08:22 He would ask what we were doing, and he always understood everything when we explained it to him.
0:08:24 He was a very fine man.
0:08:26 Just an aside here, just for a second.
0:08:28 Talent attracts talent.
0:08:31 Look at the people Singleton is already spending time with.
0:08:33 Richard Feynman, Howard Hughes.
0:08:39 He was playing chess with Claude Shannon at MIT, who would go on to become a board member at Teledyne.
0:08:43 Not only was Singleton special, but he was also hanging around special people.
0:08:49 Singleton’s career continued upward when he moved to North American Aviation in 1952,
0:08:52 leading a group working on internal navigation systems,
0:08:57 technology that would guide missiles, and aircraft with unprecedented precision.
0:09:02 But it was at Lytton Industries, which he joined in 1954, where Singleton truly began to shine.
0:09:08 By 1958, he had risen to vice president and general manager of the Electronics Equipment Division.
0:09:13 During this period, he developed a revolutionary internal guidance system
0:09:17 that included both the internal platform and its supported electronics.
0:09:21 What made his system special was its two-degree-of-freedom gyroscope,
0:09:24 smaller, lighter, and cheaper than existing systems.
0:09:28 Tech Wilson, who worked with Singleton at Lytton and later joined him at Teledyne,
0:09:33 said that Henry was the father of aircraft internal guidance as we know it today.
0:09:35 While his engineering achievements were impressive,
0:09:39 Singleton was simultaneously developing another crucial skill set.
0:09:43 He was studying the stock market and the inner workings of corporations.
0:09:49 In the 1940s and early 1950s, Singleton would spend days in brokerage houses in New York
0:09:53 and elsewhere watching the ticker tape and thinking about capital efficiency.
0:09:55 He observed how shares were valued and traded,
0:10:00 how companies with steady growth rates were rewarded with ever-increasing price-to-earnings multiples.
0:10:02 He wasn’t just a brilliant engineer.
0:10:06 He was also a student of business history and capital markets,
0:10:10 studying outliers like Henry Ford and companies like General Motors.
0:10:14 He analyzed how successful corporations grew through acquisitions,
0:10:19 examining companies like Lytton, TRW, and Golf & Western, early conglomerates.
0:10:24 Singleton was methodically building a mental playbook for his future empire.
0:10:27 Most mornings, I start my day with a smoothie.
0:10:30 It’s a secret recipe the kids and I call the Tom Brady.
0:10:35 I actually shared the full recipe in episode 191 with Dr. Rhonda Patrick.
0:10:38 One thing that hasn’t changed since then, protein is a must.
0:10:43 These days, I build my foundation around what Momentus calls the Momentus 3,
0:10:46 protein, creatine, and omega-3s.
0:10:53 I take them daily because they support everything, focus, energy, recovery, and long-term health.
0:10:57 Most people don’t get enough of any of these things through diet alone.
0:10:59 What makes Momentus different is their quality.
0:11:02 Their whey protein isolate is grass-fed.
0:11:06 Their creatine uses Creopure, the purest form available.
0:11:09 And their omega-3s are sourced for maximum bioavailability.
0:11:12 So your body actually uses what you take.
0:11:18 No fillers, no artificial ingredients, just what your body needs, backed by science.
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0:11:35 By 1960, Singleton had reached a crossroads.
0:11:39 Despite his success at Lytton, he was passed over for the CEO position.
0:11:41 And rather than settle, he made a bold decision.
0:11:48 At the age of 43, he and colleague George Kosmetsky, who taught business management at MIT,
0:11:52 decided to invest their resources to start a new electronics company.
0:11:53 At 43.
0:11:56 I think about this all the time when people say they’re too old to start a company.
0:11:58 You’re not too old.
0:11:58 Go build.
0:12:05 With an internal capital of 450,000, they launched what was originally called Instrument Systems.
0:12:10 Their first acquisition was a small electronics company, which gave them a manufacturing facility
0:12:11 and a small team of employees.
0:12:15 In October 1960, the company name was changed to Teledyne.
0:12:20 Tela, meaning at a distance, and dyne, meaning power.
0:12:23 A name that Henry decided on after much thought.
0:12:28 Teledyne’s stock went on the market in 1961 with Arthur Rock, who had later become famous
0:12:31 for backing Intel and Apple, helping in the IPO.
0:12:33 The early days weren’t easy.
0:12:35 Cash was tight, and Singleton had to get creative.
0:12:40 One technique he used was borrowing against the physical inventories of the companies that
0:12:41 they had acquired.
0:12:47 As Russ Kiernan, whose optics company was acquired by Teledyne in 1963, recalled,
0:12:52 Henry knew Kiernan Optics had sizable inventory of expensive equipment and tooling.
0:12:58 We priced each individual item and were able to raise a considerable sum for the corporation.
0:12:59 This made us all feel good.
0:13:04 That is, until we learned our facility had to make monthly payments on the loan.
0:13:10 Those early financial gymnastics reflected Singleton’s scrappy approach to business building.
0:13:14 He understood that sometimes you have to get uncomfortable to create something great.
0:13:18 Singleton was also refreshingly direct in his business dealings.
0:13:24 For example, during negotiations to acquire Kiernan for stock, the Teledyne share price declined
0:13:26 slightly after they had agreed on terms.
0:13:30 Kiernan requested a renegotiation, but Henry quickly responded,
0:13:33 you wouldn’t be making that request if the price had gone up.
0:13:35 That was the end of that conversation.
0:13:40 Singleton’s no-nonsense approach extended to all aspects of business.
0:13:46 When Kiernan later asked if Teledyne’s legal team could handle dissolving his original corporation,
0:13:49 Singleton simply said, oh, we can dissolve it ourselves.
0:13:54 Kiernan thought this was a bit strange, but proceeded with the task, having his secretary do the research
0:13:56 and obtain the necessary forms.
0:14:03 They accomplished the dissolution quickly at a total cost of just $37 in forms with no legal team needed.
0:14:10 It was a valuable lesson in eliminating unnecessary expenses that he never forgot during his 18-year career with Teledyne.
0:14:18 While building Teledyne in the early days, Singleton maintained the technical focus from his years at Hughes and Lytton.
0:14:25 While rivals hesitated, Henry Singleton stood at the edge of a massive wave he believed would reshape global technology,
0:14:26 semiconductors.
0:14:33 Not only was he right, but this would also be one of the biggest technological trends, and he surfed it.
0:14:37 This reminds me of something that Brad Jacobs said in our episode.
0:14:38 I think it was 190.
0:14:44 One of the most valuable pieces of advice he ever got from his mentor, Ludwig Jesselsen, was,
0:14:51 You can mess up a lot of things in business and still do well as long as you get the big trend right.
0:14:56 And Charlie Munger talks about this idea of surfing in poor Charlie’s Almanac, and here’s what he says.
0:15:04 When technology moves as fast as it does in a civilization like ours, you get a phenomenon that I call competitive destruction.
0:15:08 You know, you have the finest buggy whip factory, and all of a sudden in comes this little horseless carriage.
0:15:12 And before too many years go by, your buggy whip business is dead.
0:15:14 You either get into a different business or you’re dead.
0:15:15 You’re destroyed.
0:15:17 It happens again and again.
0:15:22 And when these new businesses come in, they are huge advantages for the early birds.
0:15:25 When you’re an early bird, there’s a model that I call surfing.
0:15:31 When a surfer gets up and catches the wave and just stays there, he can go on a long, long time.
0:15:37 But people get long runs when they’re right on the edge of the wave, whether it’s Microsoft or Intel or all kinds of people,
0:15:40 including National Cash Register in the early days.
0:15:43 This surfing model comes up over and over again.
0:15:46 Timothy Eaton rode the wave of small department stores becoming large.
0:15:49 Estee Lauder rode the wave of women getting freedom to look good.
0:15:54 Cornelius Vanderbilt rode the wave of steamships until he spotted a better one with railroads.
0:15:58 A lot of advantages come from just getting the major trend right.
0:16:02 And Henry Singleton would nail the semiconductor trend.
0:16:09 As he explained in a Forbes interview, we went into semiconductors in 1960, even though we were in the midst of a business crisis at the time.
0:16:18 We did it because of our conviction that it was necessary for a long-term future growth and not because of any conviction that we would immediately make huge amounts of money.
0:16:27 This conviction paid off in 1965 when Teledyne won a major contract against much larger competitors like IBM and Texas Instruments.
0:16:38 This digital system could read information about navigation, mission history, and maintenance needs, essentially creating the black box technology that became standard in aviation.
0:16:44 The victory sent Teledyne’s stock soaring from $15 to $65 a share in just one year.
0:16:51 This jump gave Singleton the inflated currency he needed to accelerate his acquisition strategy.
0:16:53 And accelerate it, he did.
0:16:58 By the end of the 1960s, Teledyne had purchased 130 companies.
0:17:00 But these weren’t random grabs.
0:17:03 They were strategic moves to build a technological ecosystem.
0:17:08 At first, Singleton acquired companies related to Teledyne’s military and government business.
0:17:13 But as they grew, he expanded to other industries to reduce reliance on government contracts.
0:17:15 In a later Forbes interview, he reflected,
0:17:25 Teledyne is like a living plant with our companies, the different branches, and each putting out new branches and growing so that no one business is too significant.
0:17:30 Among the acquisitions were companies like Ryan Aeronautical, which made an unmanned aircraft.
0:17:38 Kiernan Optics, which produced the windows for the Apollo spacecraft through which astronauts saw Earth from space for the very first time.
0:17:46 And specialty metal companies like Vasco Metals and Waochang, which made critical materials for aerospace and defense.
0:17:56 What made Singleton’s acquisition strategy truly remarkable wasn’t just the number of companies that Teledyne bought, but how he found them and what he did with them afterwards.
0:18:03 While many conglomerates of the era were grabbing anything they could get their hands on, Singleton was methodical.
0:18:05 He wasn’t looking for flashy names.
0:18:13 He wanted solid, profitable businesses with strong market positions and technical expertise that could complement Teledyne’s existing operations.
0:18:17 The companies Teledyne acquired typically shared a few common traits.
0:18:26 They were well-managed, operated in specialized technical niches related to electronics or semiconductors, and had healthy profit margins.
0:18:32 Importantly, they operated in fields that Singleton, with his technical background, could understand and evaluate.
0:18:39 A good friend of mine says there are riches in niches, and this is something that Singleton used to his advantage.
0:18:41 But where did he find these gems?
0:18:54 Often, they were small, family-run businesses started by veterans who had returned from World War II, gone to college on the GI Bill, and built successful enterprises based on technical skills they had developed during or after their service.
0:19:02 By the 1960s, many of these founders were reaching a point where they were considering succession plans or seeking a capital partner to grow further.
0:19:10 These entrepreneurs had built impressive specialty businesses, but often lacked access to capital markets that could fuel their next phase of growth.
0:19:18 This created a perfect opportunity for Teledyne, which could offer them liquidity, resources, and a place with a larger technological ecosystem.
0:19:23 Once acquired, companies typically retained their original management teams.
0:19:28 Singleton recognized that these founders knew their businesses far better than he ever could.
0:19:35 Instead of imposing a heavy corporate hand, he gave them autonomy, while providing financial discipline and strategic guidance.
0:19:37 As one former Teledyne executive put it,
0:19:43 Henry believed that people were the most important factor in business, and they had to be given a chance to do their job.
0:19:45 Why bother them if they’re doing their job, he would say.
0:19:55 This approach created a web of technically advanced companies, each operating largely independently, but connected through Teledyne’s financial control.
0:19:58 In some cases, companies were combined where synergies existed.
0:20:01 Others were renamed for brand unity.
0:20:11 But many continued to operate just as before, with the same management and same products, except now that Teledyne handled tax filings, regulatory compliance, and capital allocation.
0:20:17 Each company was its own profit center, left alone until problems arose.
0:20:20 Singleton explained how things work like this.
0:20:27 We go to an extreme in splitting businesses up so that we can see problems which would be passed over in companies where the units are larger.
0:20:31 By our plans, no one business all by itself will become too large.
0:20:33 Let’s pause here for a second.
0:20:38 You can see how Singleton’s model of running Teledyne influenced Berkshire Hathaway’s approach.
0:20:47 Acquire a company, maintain a separate profit and loss statement, leave management alone, and have them send profits back to headquarters for reallocation.
0:20:57 Warren Buffett was an admitted Singleton admirer, and we can see how Teledyne’s decentralized structure with centralized capital allocation became central to Berkshire Hathaway’s playbook.
0:20:59 There are differences, however.
0:21:04 What made the Teledyne system so powerful was how knowledge flowed between companies.
0:21:10 When Teledyne acquired a business, they gained technical expertise, industry relationships, and market insights.
0:21:16 These companies often served as launching pads into adjacent markets that Teledyne might not have otherwise entered.
0:21:21 Their own managers would even spot and recommend additional acquisition targets in related fields.
0:21:27 An engineer in one Teledyne company might develop a component that could be used by another Teledyne business.
0:21:34 A sales team might discover a market need that could be filled by combining technologies from multiple Teledyne units.
0:21:39 This cross-pollination allowed Teledyne to expand in ways that competitors couldn’t match.
0:21:46 For many founders who sold to Teledyne, the acquisition represented both the culmination of their life’s work and a new beginning.
0:21:56 They received Teledyne stock that would appreciate dramatically while their businesses gained resources and connections that allowed them to grow far beyond what might have been possible alone.
0:22:03 One of the most significant acquisitions in Teledyne’s history came in 1966 with the purchase of Vasco Metals.
0:22:12 Not only was it the largest acquisition Teledyne had made to date, but it brought something even more valuable than its profitable specialty metals business, George Roberts.
0:22:18 Roberts incidentally authored Distant Force, the book on which much of this episode is based.
0:22:21 The book is about $1,400 and hard to find, so heads up.
0:22:36 The other book that I used a lot of for this episode was Outsiders by Will Thorndyke, which if either of these books interest you, I’d encourage you to check out our membership, which gives you access to the repository, housing all my highlights from every book used in this series and more.
0:22:39 Roberts and Singleton shared history.
0:22:43 They had become roommates in the U.S. Naval Academy in 1935.
0:22:50 Their past diverged after, with Roberts pursuing metallurgy, while Singleton focused on electronics and computing.
0:22:56 With the Vasco acquisition, Roberts joined Teledyne as president, while Singleton took the role of CEO and chairman.
0:22:58 This marked a pivotal transition.
0:23:05 With Roberts handling the day-to-day operations, Singleton could focus on what he did best, capital allocation.
0:23:10 This partnership worked brilliantly because of their complementary skills.
0:23:16 Roberts was a detail-oriented operator with deep technical knowledge in metallurgy and manufacturing.
0:23:21 Singleton was a visionary strategist with a gift for financial analysis and capital deployment.
0:23:25 Together, they created a leadership dynamic few companies could match.
0:23:37 Their different backgrounds helped Teledyne expand beyond electronics into material science, aerospace components, and industrial products, diversifying while maintaining focus on specialized, high-value products.
0:23:41 As Jack Hamilton, who ran the specialty metals division, put it,
0:23:46 We specialized in high-margin products that were sold by the ounce, not the ton.
0:23:52 By 1970, Teledyne was a technological juggernaut.
0:24:01 In just a decade, it had grown from a small electronic startup to a diversified glamourate with over 130 companies under its umbrella.
0:24:04 If you thought they were indiscriminate in their acquisitions, you’d be wrong.
0:24:08 Not only did they know what to acquire, but more importantly, they knew what to avoid.
0:24:13 George Roberts summed up a key capital allocation principle by saying this,
0:24:17 The only way you can make money in some businesses is by not entering them.
0:24:24 They strategically acquired important, technically-oriented subcontractors who served the prime contractors.
0:24:28 That way, if a large contract were abandoned, it wouldn’t hurt Teledyne too much.
0:24:35 And they purchased these companies using Teledyne’s highly valued shares, often trading at 40 to 70 times earnings.
0:24:38 They more than doubled the share count in the late 60s.
0:24:43 But the financial results that followed more than made up for the share dilution.
0:24:47 They increased sales by 374% in the same period.
0:24:50 Net income increased by over 400%.
0:24:52 Then suddenly, the game changed.
0:24:55 And when it did, Singleton stopped making acquisitions on a dime.
0:24:58 It was as if he’d seen something others hadn’t.
0:25:03 There was a whole team of people at Teledyne who had been taking care of the acquisitions,
0:25:07 helping find these companies, working through the acquisition process, integrating them.
0:25:10 And they were just laid off all at the same time.
0:25:13 Singleton had made a complete strategic pivot.
0:25:18 All the focus that used to go towards acquisitions now went to internal management and cost control.
0:25:24 Through the 70s, Singleton and Roberts pruned underperforming divisions, streamlined operations,
0:25:26 and focused on cost control and free cash flow.
0:25:32 When I asked Charlie Munger to describe Singleton over dinner one night, he looked at me and said one word,
0:25:33 rational.
0:25:36 Singleton wasn’t following a rigid playbook.
0:25:40 He was intelligently adapting to changing conditions.
0:25:42 Singleton went on to explain it like this.
0:25:45 I believe in maximal flexibility.
0:25:53 So I reserve the right to change my position on any subject when the external environment relating to any topic changes too.
0:25:54 He went on to say,
0:26:04 I do not define my job in any rigid terms, but in terms of having the freedom to do what seems to me to be in the best interest of the company at any time.
0:26:10 Now, if you’re listening to that, like me, it sounds a lot like Charlie Munger, who said there was no master plan at Berkshire.
0:26:12 We were just opportunistic.
0:26:20 And as you’ve probably already noticed, there’s a lot of parallels to Singleton, Buffett, and Munger, Berkshire Hathaway, and Teledyne.
0:26:22 So what had changed?
0:26:29 The conglomerate boom of the late 60s had driven acquisition prices to levels that Singleton considered completely irrational.
0:26:39 Companies that Teledyne might have acquired for 8 to 10 times earnings just a few years earlier now commanded multiples of 15 to 20 times earnings or even higher.
0:26:41 At the same time, Teledyne’s own stock was tanking.
0:26:47 The conglomerate boom of the 1960s turned to dust while other companies were priced too high.
0:26:50 This period marks a fascinating parallel in business history.
0:26:57 The late 1960s is also when Warren Buffett decided to close his investment partnership because he was, quote,
0:26:59 out of step with present conditions.
0:27:01 Meaning he had no ideas.
0:27:02 The market was frothy.
0:27:07 So here you have both Buffett and Singleton recognizing the same reality.
0:27:11 For a while, Singleton could have used his frothy shares to acquire companies,
0:27:13 but that advantage had disappeared.
0:27:19 In fact, the share price was so high when Teledyne was doing these acquisitions, he thought of it as funny money.
0:27:24 In a 1978 interview with Forbes magazine, Singleton explained his thinking.
0:27:29 There are tremendous values in the stock market, but in buying stocks, not in entire companies.
0:27:32 Buying companies tends to raise the purchase price too high.
0:27:37 Don’t be misled by the few shares trading at a low multiple of 6 or 7.
0:27:41 If you tried to acquire those companies, the multiple is more like 12 to 14.
0:27:44 And their management will say, if you don’t pay it, somebody else will.
0:27:45 And they’re right.
0:27:46 Somebody else does.
0:27:49 That wasn’t just Henry being conservative.
0:27:51 He was thinking about opportunity cost too.
0:27:55 He went on to say, I won’t pay 15 times earnings.
0:27:58 That would mean I’d be only making a return of 6 or 7%.
0:28:00 And I can do that in treasury bills.
0:28:06 While other conglomerate CEOs continued to buy companies at these sky-high prices to maintain
0:28:11 the illusion of growth, Singleton had the discipline to stop and walk away completely.
0:28:14 It wasn’t that he had just lost his appetite for growth.
0:28:16 He had simply found better opportunities.
0:28:17 And the biggest one?
0:28:18 His own stock.
0:28:23 But before that, we need to take a quick look at another industry Teledyne entered just
0:28:25 before they stopped their acquisition frenzy.
0:28:26 Insurance.
0:28:32 Beginning in 1967, Teledyne began acquiring insurance and financial businesses, including Fireside
0:28:37 Thrift, United Insurance, Trinity Universal, and Argonaut Insurance.
0:28:42 This pivot was remarkably similar to what Warren Buffett was doing at Berkshire Hathaway around
0:28:48 this exact same time, buying insurance companies and using the insurance float as a form of low-cost
0:28:50 capital that could be invested for higher returns.
0:28:55 In fact, Berkshire Hathaway bought their first insurance company in 1967 as well.
0:28:59 Insurance companies collect premiums up front, but pay claims later.
0:29:04 In the interim, they can invest this float and keep the investment returns.
0:29:09 For a brilliant capital allocator like Singleton, insurance companies were a perfect vehicle.
0:29:14 They generated steady cash flows and provided a pool of capital that could be invested according
0:29:15 to his vision.
0:29:21 But Singleton wasn’t content to follow the conventional wisdom about how insurance company portfolios
0:29:22 should be invested.
0:29:29 During the 1968 to 74 period, when most investors considered bonds safe and stocks risky, Singleton
0:29:30 took the opposite view.
0:29:35 He instructed his insurance companies to move away from fixed income securities and toward equities
0:29:36 when the stock market was depressed.
0:29:40 And not only that, he built a concentrated portfolio.
0:29:43 Charlie Munger said of Singleton’s investment approach,
0:29:47 like Warren and I, he was comfortable with the concentration and bought only a few things that
0:29:48 he understood well.
0:29:51 Singleton invested heavily when he had an edge.
0:29:59 In 1972, Singleton saw an opportunity that would change corporate America forever, though few recognized it at the time.
0:30:04 One morning, George Roberts recalled Singleton walking into his office around 830 and saying simply,
0:30:08 George, we’re going to make a bid for our stock at $20 a share.
0:30:10 Roberts was stunned.
0:30:11 Are we really going to do that?
0:30:17 Singleton hadn’t even hinted at such a move before, and he and George were in constant communication.
0:30:22 Even Arthur Rock, who was involved in most of Teledyne’s stock activities, was caught off guard.
0:30:29 This was the beginning of what would become the most aggressive and successful stock buyback program
0:30:30 in corporate history.
0:30:33 The audacity is hard to overstate.
0:30:38 In an era when virtually no companies bought back shares, Teledyne would conduct eight major
0:30:44 share repurchases over the next 12 years, reducing the number of shares outstanding by more than
0:30:46 90%.
0:30:50 In the first tender offer, they tried to buy 1 million shares at $20 each.
0:30:52 What happened next shocked even Singleton.
0:30:56 8.9 million shares were tendered.
0:31:00 And rather than scaling back, Teledyne took every single one.
0:31:04 Singleton later recounted with characteristic understatement,
0:31:08 We took them all at 20 and figured it was a fluke, and that we couldn’t do it again.
0:31:10 But instead of going up, our stock went down.
0:31:16 So we kept tendering, first at 14, and then doing two bonds for stock swaps.
0:31:20 Every time the tender was over, the stock would go down, and we’d tender again.
0:31:23 Then two more tenders at 18 and 40.
0:31:25 Wall Street was shocked.
0:31:28 Buybacks weren’t just uncommon in the 1970s.
0:31:30 They were practically non-existent.
0:31:35 Analysts had been trained to equate growth with acquisitions, not shrinking share counts.
0:31:39 But Singleton’s logic was mathematically irrefutable.
0:31:45 Teledyne had issued stock at 20 to 25 times earnings during its 1960s acquisition spree.
0:31:51 Now, in the bear market of the early 1970s, they could buy back the same stock at 8 to 12 times
0:31:52 earnings.
0:31:55 It was the perfect arbitrage across time.
0:31:59 The impact on the per-share metrics was explosive.
0:32:03 In 1971, Teledyne earned $1.48 per share.
0:32:10 By 1975, that figure had risen to $6.09, a 311% increase.
0:32:17 While total revenue and net income had only risen 56 and 77% respectively.
0:32:22 In just five years, Teledyne had bought back 56% of outstanding shares.
0:32:24 And they were just getting started.
0:32:30 Perhaps most impressive, Singleton financed the majority of these buybacks with cash from
0:32:30 operations.
0:32:34 When debt was used, it was quickly paid off from operational income.
0:32:39 The company’s no dividend policy redirected all cash to these repurchases.
0:32:41 Eventually, the market caught on.
0:32:46 Shareholders who stayed with Teledyne from the first buyback in 1972 achieved gains of
0:32:54 approximately 3,000% by 1983, transforming many patient investors into multi-millionaires.
0:33:00 While Singleton’s financial moves captured attention, what was less noticed but was equally important
0:33:05 was the sophisticated operating system that he and George Roberts developed to manage their
0:33:06 sprawling enterprise.
0:33:11 For a corporation of Teledyne’s size, they ran a remarkably lean corporate office, fewer
0:33:16 than 50 people at headquarters, who focused primarily on planning, reporting, and auditing
0:33:20 the results of the individual companies they had acquired in the 1960s.
0:33:25 In contrast to other companies that chased integration and synergy, Teledyne did the opposite.
0:33:29 They broke the company into smaller parts to increase accountability.
0:33:34 As William Thorndyke noted, ironically, the most successful conglomerate of the era was actually
0:33:37 the least conglomerate-like in its operations.
0:33:42 Singleton created a system balancing local autonomy with central financial oversight.
0:33:49 Every subsidiary had a president with real decision-making power, but they also faced rigorous financial
0:33:49 controls.
0:33:57 The company also used a metric called Teledyne return, the average of cash return and recorded
0:33:57 profit.
0:33:59 Roberts went on to explain this.
0:34:04 We’d say, you reported a profit of a million dollars, but you only had half a million dollars
0:34:04 in cash.
0:34:07 So you only made $750,000.
0:34:11 So tell us about the rest of the profit when you get it.
0:34:16 This focus on cash, not accounting earnings, forced Teledyne managers to think about the
0:34:18 real economics of their business.
0:34:22 You couldn’t satisfy Singleton by merely showing good numbers on paper.
0:34:25 You had to deliver cash in the bank.
0:34:30 Cash was king for Teledyne because it was the fuel for Singleton’s capital allocation machine.
0:34:35 Without the substantial cash flows generated by Teledyne’s operating businesses, the company
0:34:41 couldn’t have executed its ambitious share repurchase program, the place Singleton saw as the best
0:34:44 opportunity most of the time for their excess cash.
0:34:48 Their reporting system was also remarkably efficient.
0:34:55 Teledyne’s fiscal month ended on a Friday, and by Tuesday morning, reports from all 160 entities
0:34:56 arrived.
0:35:02 This let headquarters know exactly how the enterprise was performing without delay, something many
0:35:04 companies still struggle with today.
0:35:09 What made Teledyne’s model particularly effective was how it structured leadership at the local
0:35:10 level.
0:35:13 Each unit head wasn’t a manager, but a president.
0:35:14 This wasn’t mere semantics.
0:35:19 Teledyne believed that companies should remain rooted in their communities, doing business with
0:35:21 local banks and participating in local charities.
0:35:27 The president title gave managers the stature they needed in these local matters.
0:35:31 My feeling was that we needed to keep these companies where they were throughout the United
0:35:35 States as part of their own communities, Roberts went on to explain.
0:35:40 I felt it was important to give these managers the title of president of their company and thus
0:35:44 give them the prestige and stature they needed to act in local matters.
0:35:50 This approach created a federation of businesses that felt independent while benefiting from being part
0:35:51 of something larger.
0:35:56 Each president had real autonomy, but with Teledyne’s financial backing and accountability
0:35:57 systems behind them.
0:36:04 Despite this autonomy, Teledyne didn’t hesitate to exit businesses that no longer fit, even successful
0:36:05 ones.
0:36:08 A striking example was the Packard Bell television division.
0:36:14 When American TV manufacturers still dominated the U.S. market, Singleton anticipated the coming
0:36:18 Japanese competition and exited the business entirely.
0:36:21 This shocked industry observers.
0:36:27 Packard Bell had a good market share and solid profits, but Singleton saw the economics changing
0:36:32 before they changed, and he became the first American manufacturer to exit the industry with
0:36:34 others following over the next decade.
0:36:37 Similar decisions were made across the Teledyne portfolio.
0:36:43 When margins compressed in certain industrial products due to intensifying competition, Teledyne didn’t
0:36:49 hesitate to divest those businesses and redeploy capital to higher return opportunities, which
0:36:53 often in the rollercoaster economy of this 1970s was their own stock.
0:36:59 This willingness to walk away even from businesses with storied histories or emotional attachments
0:37:05 on a dime demonstrated the clear-eyed financial discipline that set Teledyne apart from many
0:37:09 of its peers who often clung to underperforming businesses far too long.
0:37:15 The contrast with General Electric is telling, while GE under Jack Walsh built layers of management
0:37:21 and reporting requirements, creating a sprawling bureaucracy, Teledyne maintained its lean structure.
0:37:27 Singleton refused to let his connection to individual companies be filtered through too many minds and
0:37:28 levels of management.
0:37:32 There were always direct relationships between corporate and each operating unit.
0:37:35 The difference in approach had profound implications.
0:37:41 While GE would eventually collapse under its own complexity and financial engineering, Teledyne’s
0:37:48 disciplined focus on real cash generation, operational autonomy, and real-time information created
0:37:49 lasting value.
0:37:55 Despite the focus on financial results, Teledyne took a remarkably long-term view of talent development.
0:38:01 The company sought to hire people who would make careers at Teledyne not just pass for a few
0:38:01 years.
0:38:07 This was particularly evident in the TRAP program, Teledyne Research Assistance Program,
0:38:10 which Roberts and Singleton introduced in 1975.
0:38:15 Under this initiative, Teledyne companies could propose research projects to be carried out with
0:38:16 universities.
0:38:19 If approved, these projects would be funded by the corporate office.
0:38:22 Remember the Andrew Mellon Outliers episode?
0:38:28 He did the same thing, where he funded research through programs at universities that he could
0:38:32 commercialize, which eventually culminated in Carnegie Mellon University.
0:38:39 Over its 20-year life, TRAP supported 320 projects involving about 80 Teledyne companies and
0:38:43 112 universities at a total cost of $14.2 million.
0:38:48 The program helped Teledyne develop new products, manufacturing processes, and new markets.
0:38:50 But it had another crucial benefit.
0:38:56 It allowed Teledyne to identify talented students and university personnel who might become valuable
0:38:59 employees, especially those interested in research.
0:39:05 This approach to talent development stood in stark contrast to the more traditional hiring practices
0:39:07 becoming common in corporate America.
0:39:14 While many companies increasingly viewed employees as interchangeable parts, Teledyne invested in building deep institutional
0:39:19 knowledge and technical capabilities while going after high agency people.
0:39:22 The strategy paid dividends in multiple ways.
0:39:26 Teledyne businesses developed reputations for technical excellence that helped them win contracts
0:39:27 and command premium prices.
0:39:35 They also attracted the engineers and scientists who wanted to work on challenging problems with deep domain expertise.
0:39:40 And they retained key personnel who built careers at Teledyne rather than hopping between employers.
0:39:50 In the end, what made Teledyne remarkable wasn’t just Singleton’s financial wizardry or Robert’s operational discipline, but the seamless integration of the two.
0:40:07 While most conglomerates of the era were ultimately dismantled or vastly underperformed the market, Teledyne prospered because it paired sophisticated capital allocation with lean, decentralized operations focused relentlessly on cash generation and shareholder returns.
0:40:18 As the 1980s dawned, Teledyne stood as a monument to what disciplined capital allocation, decentralized operations, and visionary leadership could achieve.
0:40:25 The Forbes Annual Report on American Industry in January 1980 confirmed what many longtime shareholders already knew.
0:40:28 Teledyne’s performance was exceptional by any measure.
0:40:37 Among over 1,000 major American companies, Teledyne ranked 12th in profitability, 15th in growth, and 6th in market performance.
0:40:47 In the multi-companies category, Teledyne was first in return on equity, first in return on total capital, and second in growth in earnings per share.
0:40:52 Perhaps most telling was a detail that perfectly captured Singleton’s approach.
0:41:01 Teledyne released its 1979 earnings by January 8th and had the annual financial report to shareholders in the mail by January 30th.
0:41:23 It was this respect for shareholders that led Singleton to separate out a Teledyne operating company called U.S. Ecology, a nuclear and hazardous waste disposal business.
0:41:27 This wasn’t a distressed sale or divestiture of an underperforming business.
0:41:32 In fact, U.S. Ecology was doing about $100 million in sales in its best year.
0:41:35 But Singleton recognized two critical facts.
0:41:45 First, public sentiment about nuclear waste disposal was deteriorating rapidly in the 1980s, creating potentially unlimited future liabilities.
0:41:51 And second, not all Teledyne shareholders might want exposure to this now controversial business.
0:41:54 Singleton’s solution was elegant.
0:42:01 Distribute shares of the renamed American Ecology directly to Teledyne shareholders on a one-for-seven basis.
0:42:05 This gave shareholders a choice they hadn’t had before.
0:42:09 Those who believed in the business could keep their American Ecology shares,
0:42:14 while those who didn’t could sell without having to divest their entire Teledyne position.
0:42:23 The same year, Singleton conducted his eighth and final major stock buyback, acquiring 8.6 million shares at $200 per share,
0:42:26 approximately $30 above the market price.
0:42:31 This reduced Teledyne’s outstanding shares to just over $20 million.
0:42:35 The buyback was financed through internally generated funds and bank loans,
0:42:39 $300 million of which were repaid in the same year.
0:42:44 After this transaction, Teledyne’s stock climbed to $302 per share by September,
0:42:48 making it the highest-priced stock on the New York Stock Exchange.
0:42:55 From 1972 to 1984, Singleton had reduced Teledyne’s outstanding shares by over 90%,
0:42:59 creating extraordinary value for long-term shareholders.
0:43:04 By 1987, Singleton was 70 and Roberts was 68.
0:43:08 Most of Teledyne’s key directors and managers were over 65.
0:43:10 The succession question loomed.
0:43:12 Wall Street began speculating.
0:43:16 Would Teledyne be broken up, taken private, sold?
0:43:19 Singleton’s response was characteristically patient.
0:43:23 We’re not particularly persuaded by quick, temporary gains.
0:43:27 We’d rather get something permanent, and it takes time.
0:43:30 If there’s anybody who wants us to do something real fast,
0:43:34 that’s going to be astonishing in terms of increased earnings or something.
0:43:37 I don’t know how to satisfy such desires.
0:43:41 When pressed about spinoffs to boost your shareholder value, he was blunt.
0:43:44 You’re thinking in the short term.
0:43:45 I’m in the long term.
0:43:50 So I wouldn’t do anything like that for a temporary rise in the stock price.
0:43:51 He went on to say,
0:43:54 You know, there are companies that will sell one division and buy another
0:43:57 because today this division generally sports a low multiple
0:43:59 and the one they’re buying has a high multiple
0:44:02 and they think that may rub off on the whole company.
0:44:04 That absolutely turns me off.
0:44:06 The whole concept is repulsive.
0:44:08 We don’t do things like that.
0:44:11 We look at the economic long-term possibilities.
0:44:14 Singleton was planning his exit, but he would do it his way,
0:44:18 methodically with an eye on permanent value rather than quick gains.
0:44:25 In April 1986, at the annual shareholders meeting, Singleton announced he was giving up his CEO title.
0:44:29 George Roberts would assume that role in addition to his position as president.
0:44:31 Singleton would remain chairman.
0:44:36 He stressed that the realignment wouldn’t mark any major change in Teledyne’s management style,
0:44:40 telling shareholders he anticipated they would continue working together as a team,
0:44:43 as they had for the previous 20 or so years.
0:44:47 This was classic Singleton, no drama, no flashy succession announcement,
0:44:51 just a quiet handover of operational authority to his trusted partner.
0:44:55 The market barely noticed because the transition was so seamless,
0:44:57 exactly as Singleton had intended.
0:45:04 The first major initiative post-transaction came in 1986 with the spinoff of Argonaut Insurance.
0:45:09 Teledyne had acquired Argonaut in 1969 for $87 million.
0:45:14 At the time of the spinoff, it traded at $20 per share with a market value of $234 million.
0:45:19 Shareholders received one share of Argonaut Group for each share of Teledyne.
0:45:29 By 1990, Argonaut was trading in the high 70s with net income of $89.7 million and earned premiums of $458 million.
0:45:35 The spinoff had been a success, allowing Argonaut to focus on its core insurance business while giving shareholders substantial value.
0:45:38 That was followed in 1990 by another major spinoff.
0:45:44 The board approved a plan to distribute the rest of Teledyne’s insurance and finance subsidiaries to shareholders.
0:45:50 Unitrin became the name for the new entity, the combined United Insurance Company of America
0:45:54 and its subsidiaries with Trinity Universal Insurance and Fireside Securities.
0:46:00 These subsidiaries represented a combined annual income of $1.1 billion.
0:46:04 Singleton became the chairman of Unitrin and Roberts joined its board.
0:46:08 Most of the equity investments Singleton had made through the insurance companies,
0:46:13 the highly concentrated positions, went to Teledyne shareholders through these spinoffs.
0:46:16 In investment circles, this approach was recognized as brilliant.
0:46:20 Leon Cooperman, a longtime investor in Teledyne, said this about Argonaut.
0:46:27 Number one, the company returned 18% on shareholders’ equity last year, compared with 15% for the stock market.
0:46:30 Number two, the company is committed to enhancing shareholder value.
0:46:37 It has bought back 2.3 million shares since 1986, and management owns 30% of the outstanding shares.
0:46:39 So they think like owners.
0:46:44 Cooperman also noticed that Argonaut’s investment portfolio contained only government securities,
0:46:51 high-grade municipals and corporates with zero junk bonds, a testament to Singleton’s conservative investment philosophy
0:46:53 that had transferred to the spinoff company.
0:46:59 In 1989, Henry Singleton retired from Teledyne after 29 years.
0:47:00 He was 73.
0:47:04 Roberts became the CEO while Singleton stayed as chairman for two more years.
0:47:09 Unlike the sudden departure common at other companies, this transition had been methodically planned.
0:47:11 Insiders weren’t surprised.
0:47:17 In 1991, Singleton stepped down as chairman to focus on his ranching interests, though he remained on the board.
0:47:21 For the first time, someone other than the founder chaired Teledyne’s annual meetings.
0:47:24 This shift marked the end of an extraordinary chapter.
0:47:32 From nothing, Singleton had built a $3.5 billion enterprise while pioneering what later became standard practices.
0:47:37 Aggressive buybacks, corporate spinoffs, decentralized management, concentrated positions,
0:47:39 and deploying insurance float for investments.
0:47:46 By 1993, both Singleton and Roberts had largely withdrawn from operations while remaining directors.
0:47:56 The real test of Singleton’s legacy came in 1996 when Teledyne merged with Allegheny Ludenum.
0:48:01 After fighting off an unwanted suitor in 1994, Teledyne found a partner that made sense.
0:48:03 The merger was friendly.
0:48:09 Richard Simmons, Allegheny’s CEO, had known Roberts for years through metallurgic societies.
0:48:13 Singleton, though retired, sat with Roberts during the negotiations.
0:48:19 Curatoristically, Singleton focused on the one variable that mattered, share price.
0:48:26 He ignored all these other peripheral issues that go into these negotiations, like board seats and titles and management contracts.
0:48:29 He just focused on one variable, share price.
0:48:31 That is the variable I want to maximize.
0:48:34 The new company was called Allegheny Teledyne.
0:48:38 Shareholders overwhelmingly approved with 95% voting in favor.
0:48:43 Simmons became chairman, while Teledyne’s president, Bill Rutledge, became president and CEO.
0:48:49 Allegheny Teledyne began trading on August 15, 1996 for 24,000 employees.
0:48:54 The Teledyne name survived, but Singleton’s creation had evolved into something new.
0:49:00 Henry Singleton died on August 31, 1999 at 82.
0:49:08 At his memorial service, Simon Ramo, who had recruited him to come west from MIT decades earlier, delivered a revealing eulogy.
0:49:14 Rarely do you meet a total stranger and instantly know that you will admire that person, Ramo said.
0:49:20 He described seeing Singleton’s academic record with perfect 100 scores in every course.
0:49:24 Three digits squeezed into the space for only two.
0:49:33 Yet, despite these achievements, Singleton had no ego, but rather the countenance of quiet dignity and gentleness and kindly intelligence.
0:49:37 Ramo shared a story about Singleton’s early investment in Apple.
0:49:47 How, Henry, I asked him later, with all these new computer startups looking alike, did you pick Apple that emerged as a huge success with enormous gains for early investors?
0:49:55 Well, Cy, he replied, I figured most of these millions of expected potential computer customers would at first be intimidated by computers.
0:49:58 But could anyone be intimidated by a computer named Apple?
0:50:03 Besides, he said, all the others except Apple, if they failed, would just walk away.
0:50:14 Apple’s founders, I noted, had mortgaged their homes to the hilt and borrowed heavily from their parents and their brothers and their sisters and their aunts and their uncles and their grandparents and their cousins.
0:50:18 And they plowed every cent into the company.
0:50:21 They just had to make good.
0:50:32 This reveals Singleton’s investment philosophy in its purest form, a combination of consumer psychology and founder incentives that cut through the noise to what would make a company successful.
0:50:37 By the time of his death, the various entities that had emerged from Teledyne were all thriving.
0:50:44 Roberts noted that before the spinoff of Argonaut in 1986, Teledyne’s stock price peaked at $367 a share.
0:50:52 By 1999, the combined value of all the companies was $691 per share, showing the lasting value Singleton had created.
0:51:00 It’s fitting to end this episode, I think, with a quote from Claude Shannon that appeared in 1976 in an interview with the LA Times.
0:51:02 Shannon said this of Singleton.
0:51:04 Singleton is extremely intelligent.
0:51:06 He tries to work out the best moves.
0:51:12 And maybe he doesn’t like to talk too much because when you’re playing a game, you don’t tell everyone else what your strategy is.
0:51:16 Wow, what an episode.
0:51:19 It’s hard to contain my excitement for Henry Singleton.
0:51:25 I mean, I had heard about him before, but this deep dive really got me inspired in a lot of ways.
0:51:31 I want to talk about a few of my reflections and then go into some of the lessons that we can learn and take away from Henry Singleton.
0:51:37 So, Henry Singleton put his mind to building a great company and he succeeded.
0:51:41 He ended with one of the best investment track records in history.
0:51:59 And he accomplished this with disciplined capital allocation, patience, constant learning, surrounding himself with great people, structuring the organization for accountability, and thinking long-term, and ignoring generally accepted accounting principles, and instead focusing on cash, or as he called it, the Teledyne return.
0:52:06 Interestingly, most investors didn’t get anywhere near the return that Teledyne got because they didn’t have the patience.
0:52:17 The market wasn’t always rational at one point when people started to clue in to how the buybacks were affecting the per-share earnings, the share price 4X’d in like three months.
0:52:23 Wall Street largely missed this too because it didn’t fit the mold of what conglomerates of the day look like.
0:52:28 Okay, let’s talk about some of the lessons that we can learn from Henry Singleton.
0:52:30 First, outcome over ego.
0:52:35 While Singleton built a large company, he never cared about size for its own sake.
0:52:42 Unlike today’s empire builders who chase revenue and adjusted EBITDA, he focused solely on per-share value.
0:52:44 Size wasn’t about status.
0:52:50 It was about optionality, giving him maximum strategic flexibility, much like his approach to chess.
0:52:54 Two, ignore the institutional imperative.
0:52:58 Singleton refused to do things just because everybody else was doing them.
0:53:01 He refused to do things that everybody else expected.
0:53:05 When his peers were frantically acquiring companies in the 70s, he stopped completely.
0:53:13 And yet when conventional wisdom said that stock buybacks were foolish, he repurchased 90% of Teledyne shares.
0:53:19 His willingness to look foolish in the short term led to extraordinary returns in the long run.
0:53:22 Three, the courage to be disliked.
0:53:27 Singleton was indifferent to criticism, especially when the math was on his side.
0:53:37 While most people structure their entire careers to avoid being criticized, he made decisions that baffled Wall Street and everybody else, including the business press.
0:53:38 He avoided management conferences.
0:53:40 He ignored consultants.
0:53:41 He refused to provide earnings guidance.
0:53:45 He optimized for results rather than approval.
0:53:50 When his share buybacks confused analysts, he didn’t even bother to explain himself.
0:53:52 He just kept buying.
0:53:54 Four, maximum flexibility.
0:54:01 I reserve the right to change my position on any subject when the external environment changes, Singleton said.
0:54:10 He never locked himself into a rigid strategy, maintaining freedom to pursue whatever best served Teledyne’s interest as conditions evolved.
0:54:14 Five, he changed his mind when the facts changed.
0:54:18 Singleton didn’t just think differently, he acted differently.
0:54:27 When acquisition prices became irrational in the late 1960s, he immediately stopped buying companies after making 130 acquisitions.
0:54:31 When his stock was undervalued, he pivoted to aggressive buybacks.
0:54:33 When it’s overvalued, he buys companies.
0:54:43 Six, riches in niches, Singleton focused on specialized, technically-oriented businesses with dominant positions in small markets.
0:54:49 He wasn’t building a random conglomerate, but a federation of businesses with technical depth and pricing power.
0:54:54 Most of them, to quote one of them, sold by the ounce, not by the ton.
0:55:00 Seven, Singleton stripped away complexity to focus only on the essential.
0:55:12 Whether it was cash returns or per-share value, he identified the metric that truly mattered and optimized for it relentlessly, ignoring traditional status symbols and vanity metrics.
0:55:15 Eight, he thought in terms of opportunity cost.
0:55:18 He compared all options against each other.
0:55:21 I won’t pay 15 times earnings, he said.
0:55:24 That would mean I’d only be making a return of 6 or 7 percent.
0:55:25 I can do that in T-bills.
0:55:30 Every capital allocation decision was measured against alternatives.
0:55:32 Nine, contrast.
0:55:34 Singleton wasn’t just smart.
0:55:37 He systematically applied his intelligence to business problems.
0:55:46 The MIT mathematician and chess prodigy brought uncommon analytical depth to markets where most decisions were made by conventional thinking.
0:55:50 Ten, accountability with autonomy.
0:55:57 Teledyne’s operating system combined local business control with rigorous financial accountability.
0:56:01 Subsidiary presidents had real authority, but they were measured on the Teledyne return.
0:56:07 The average of the cash flow and reported profit, ensuring that they couldn’t hide behind accounting tricks.
0:56:12 Eleven, avoiding stupidity is easier than seeking brilliance.
0:56:17 Success often comes from avoiding mistakes rather than making brilliant moves.
0:56:21 And one of the quotes from George Roberts really stuck out to me in this episode.
0:56:25 The only way to make money in some businesses is not to buy them.
0:56:30 Sometimes the best growth strategy is to decline an opportunity.
0:56:32 And finally, twelve, thinking long-term.
0:56:39 In a market obsessed with quarterly results, Singleton focused on decisions that would compound value over decades.
0:56:47 That gave him an enormous advantage and the freedom to make moves that appeared puzzling in the short term, but proved brilliant over time.
0:56:49 What a crazy episode.
0:56:51 I can’t wait to listen to this when it comes out.
0:56:55 I had so much fun doing this, and I’ll see you next time.
0:57:09 Thanks for listening and learning with us.
0:57:19 For a complete list of episodes, show notes, transcripts, and more, go to fs.blog slash podcast, or just Google The Knowledge Project.
0:57:27 The Farnham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking, turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results.
0:57:37 It’s a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate, sharpen your decision-making, and set yourself up for unparalleled success.
0:57:40 Learn more at fs.blog slash clear.