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  • Former FBI Agent: If They Do This Please RUN! Narcissists Favourite Trick To Control You! They’re Controlling You Like A Puppet!

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    0:00:02 I was in the FBI for 25 years.
    0:00:05 I have sat with spies and enemies of this country,
    0:00:08 and I learned a lot about human behaviors.
    0:00:12 Imagine being able to read other people and circumstances faster.
    0:00:15 It gives you a tremendous advantage in your life.
    0:00:16 I want to hear everything.
    0:00:19 So one of the first things I teach is…
    0:00:21 Joe Navarro is a former FBI agent
    0:00:23 turned world-renowned body language expert.
    0:00:25 He helps people decode body language
    0:00:27 to improve communication, trust, and influence.
    0:00:30 One of the things that I’ve found in negotiations
    0:00:34 is we, as humans, communicate quite a lot with our faces.
    0:00:36 For instance, we push this together
    0:00:38 when we don’t understand something.
    0:00:40 And then the minute we hear something we don’t like,
    0:00:43 blood actually begins to leave the lips,
    0:00:44 and then we begin to tighten them.
    0:00:47 Another behavior is that when there’s a lack of confidence,
    0:00:50 insecurities, people immediately…
    0:00:53 So once we understand these behaviors,
    0:00:55 you can take command of any situation.
    0:00:58 Confidence. Is this something that you’re born with?
    0:01:00 Or do you think confidence can be trained?
    0:01:02 It can absolutely be trained.
    0:01:04 So the FBI actually teach confidence.
    0:01:06 And there’s a lot of strategies.
    0:01:09 One of them is the most powerful gesture that we can use.
    0:01:11 And you see Musk do this a lot.
    0:01:13 But what I tell people is that
    0:01:16 the easiest way to learn confidence is to…
    0:01:20 Joe, we actually videoed my interaction with you when I met you.
    0:01:21 And I’ve got the video here.
    0:01:25 So one of the things you immediately did was…
    0:01:26 Don’t do that.
    0:01:27 It’s a no-no.
    0:01:29 Quick one before we get back to this episode.
    0:01:31 Just give me 30 seconds of your time.
    0:01:33 Two things I wanted to say.
    0:01:37 The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week.
    0:01:38 It means the world to all of us.
    0:01:41 And this really is a dream that we absolutely never had
    0:01:43 and couldn’t have imagined getting to this place.
    0:01:47 But secondly, it’s a dream where we feel like we’re only just getting started.
    0:01:49 And if you enjoy what we do here,
    0:01:53 please join the 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly
    0:01:55 and follow us on this app.
    0:01:56 Here’s a promise I’m going to make to you.
    0:02:01 I’m going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can
    0:02:02 now and into the future.
    0:02:04 We’re going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to.
    0:02:08 And we’re going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
    0:02:09 Thank you.
    0:02:10 Thank you so much.
    0:02:11 Back to the episode.
    0:02:19 Joe, zooming out, if someone asked you in the street
    0:02:22 and they wanted a two-sentence answer,
    0:02:26 who are you and what have you spent your life doing?
    0:02:28 How would you answer that question?
    0:02:31 With one word, teaching.
    0:02:35 I think I’ve spent my whole life teaching.
    0:02:41 Even when I was in the FBI, starting in 1984,
    0:02:45 a lot of my job was obviously being an FBI agent,
    0:02:50 investigating crimes, chasing after spies and so forth.
    0:02:54 But, you know, I hired on in 1978.
    0:02:57 But as early as 84, I was already teaching.
    0:03:03 And I love it when people get it and they see a behavior.
    0:03:10 They understand the underpinnings, the foundation of why we do certain things.
    0:03:12 I’ll give you an example.
    0:03:18 Sometimes you’ll come to a horrible scene and people immediately gasp.
    0:03:21 They take an air and then they cover their mouths.
    0:03:27 Or there’s one point difference on the scoreboard and people are like this and they don’t understand.
    0:03:41 This is back where we were surrounded by lions and tigers and we learned to cover our mouths so as not to broadcast our breath so that they couldn’t see where we were or find us.
    0:03:47 And so the human body has a few shortcuts.
    0:03:49 I should say the human brain.
    0:03:51 They’re called heuristics.
    0:03:53 And so one of them is to freeze.
    0:03:59 So when we hear a loud sound or we see a predator or a dog, we freeze.
    0:04:06 Obviously, whoever ran 300,000 years ago was bitten.
    0:04:09 And so we have these shortcuts.
    0:04:16 And it’s always fascinating to me to share why we have these behaviors and why we.
    0:04:20 And you realize you just inhaled so you can hold your breath.
    0:04:25 And then we cover our breath so we don’t broadcast for the predators to smell us.
    0:04:27 You spend your time writing books.
    0:04:33 You spend your time teaching in various different contexts these days, whether it’s on stage or in other environments on the Internet.
    0:04:39 What is it that you’re giving people?
    0:04:45 That’s a profound question that I don’t think I’ve been asked.
    0:04:53 I think the simplest answer is knowledge, knowledge that perhaps they didn’t have time to acquire.
    0:04:57 I grew up very poor.
    0:04:59 I was a refugee from Cuba.
    0:05:06 And I lived in an area of Miami, which was mostly elderly people.
    0:05:08 So I was by myself a lot.
    0:05:13 So I would go through garbage bins collecting things to read.
    0:05:20 It’s that knowledge that I was fortunate enough to acquire, the love of reading.
    0:05:25 And I run into a lot of people who haven’t had that benefit.
    0:05:29 Maybe they don’t have a love of reading and of learning.
    0:05:32 I see myself as, OK, I have this knowledge.
    0:05:41 I have sat with terrorists, spies, bazooka-yielding enemies of this country.
    0:05:44 And other people never had that opportunity.
    0:05:48 And I learned a lot from that and from my reading.
    0:05:51 So why not share it?
    0:05:53 Make their life a little easier.
    0:05:59 When you say make their life a little easier, if I am to receive your knowledge, how would my life be better?
    0:06:01 How would I be more productive?
    0:06:03 That’s a great question.
    0:06:15 Imagine being able to aperceive things way ahead of time because you can read other people and circumstances faster.
    0:06:22 Most people see a behavior and have to sit there and wonder, are they upset with me?
    0:06:27 Are they, as the Brits would say, my wife is a Brit, are they taking the piss or something?
    0:06:30 Just any number of things.
    0:06:40 But imagine being able to look at something and decipher it infinitely faster so that you can devote yourself to other things.
    0:06:47 Where most of us break down the face into the forehead, the eyes, the ears, and so forth.
    0:06:53 But imagine being able to assess the whole face, the shoulders, the hands, everything all at once.
    0:06:57 And draw inferences from that information.
    0:07:01 It gives you a tremendous advantage.
    0:07:06 And also, in negotiations, being able to read others.
    0:07:11 And at the same time, we forget that others are reading us.
    0:07:14 And what is the perception that we want to convey?
    0:07:21 And if I were to attain all of the knowledge that you have to offer, and I were to implement it,
    0:07:24 What areas of my life do you believe would improve?
    0:07:31 First, within yourself, for instance, being able to assess yourself.
    0:07:41 So if, let’s say, you have anger issues and so forth, or you’re quick to trigger, well, how do I deal with that?
    0:07:44 Well, first, you assess, you know, what is going on?
    0:07:46 Your stomach gets upset.
    0:07:47 Chest tightens.
    0:07:49 Your emotions get up.
    0:07:50 So what do I do then?
    0:07:52 Most people aren’t taught that.
    0:07:54 So there’s part of that.
    0:07:58 There’s how to communicate, for instance, more effectively with your children.
    0:08:12 A simple thing that, for instance, and nobody teaches this, well, I do, is that, you know, if you stand in front of your child like a drill instructor with your neck stiff,
    0:08:22 you’re going to get a very different reaction than if you stand at an angle slightly further away from the child and tilt your head.
    0:08:36 That the communication you will experience with that child is so much different just by tilting your head than if you are standing directly in front of them, that you can enhance communication.
    0:08:40 And then you say, well, what application is that for real life?
    0:08:48 Well, you can actually change the amount of face time you get from somebody else.
    0:08:53 Let’s say you only had two minutes and you want to stretch that by just tilting your head.
    0:09:05 We’ve demonstrably shown that you can change the amount of face time that somebody is willing to give to you just because we show that we’re relaxed
    0:09:11 and that we’re not coming at you with an agenda that we’re willing to listen.
    0:09:15 It can be transformative if you apply that knowledge.
    0:09:25 Now, some people look at knowledge and they don’t do much with it, but you can use it at home, you can use it at work, you can use it in negotiations.
    0:09:35 For instance, one of the things that I teach is the value of time, and time is actually, can be used as a nonverbal.
    0:09:41 So when I talk about nonverbals, I’m really talking about anything that communicates but is not a word.
    0:09:47 Well, you can use time as a nonverbal to say I’m in charge.
    0:09:50 Whoever dominates and controls time controls.
    0:10:00 And so even if I change the delivery of my message to slow things down, you’re already taking charge in that negotiation.
    0:10:08 It’s a beautiful thing to witness when you execute it properly.
    0:10:11 So there are a lot of applications.
    0:10:18 And, you know, and obviously, like you, you basically study human behavior.
    0:10:23 You are a business person, but you’re actually really in the people business.
    0:10:37 And once we understand the needs, and some are biological, the wants, the desires, the preferences, the preferences of others,
    0:10:39 how do they like that information delivered?
    0:10:41 How do they like their coffee?
    0:10:42 All of that.
    0:10:45 But then what do they fear?
    0:10:49 Most people don’t tell you I have fears.
    0:10:52 They say, well, you know, I’m concerned about that or that.
    0:10:56 I don’t know if that’s a good investment or we’ll have to do some due diligence.
    0:10:59 But that’s the brain only recognizes fear.
    0:11:12 And so once you understand that, it gives you such amplitude to then pursue whatever it is that you’re interested in doing more effectively.
    0:11:15 And your career.
    0:11:15 Yeah.
    0:11:20 So you’ve been an, you were an FBI agent for more than 30 years?
    0:11:24 Well, I was in law enforcement for 30 years.
    0:11:32 I was in the FBI for 25 years, principally working in the area of counterintelligence.
    0:11:35 But, you know, in the FBI, you never wear one hat.
    0:11:37 I was also a pilot.
    0:11:39 So I flew surveillance.
    0:11:40 I was a SWAT team commander.
    0:11:47 So I did SWAT stuff and actually worked with the SAS from London.
    0:11:53 And then I was in the behavioral analysis program.
    0:12:00 So we used that skill set to work on catching spies.
    0:12:03 What is the behavioral analysis program?
    0:12:21 In the 89, 90, the FBI developed a very secret program to analyze not people that were dead, but actually, how do we use human behavior to catch spies, to catch terrorists?
    0:12:25 And then once we catch them, how do we get into their heads?
    0:12:32 How do we get them to tell us what they’re up to, what their purpose is, and so forth?
    0:12:35 So we created this program.
    0:12:53 I, along with five other agents out of 12,000, were selected from the FBI to become part of this new behavioral analysis program, which was supposed to be classified, except it was accidentally leaked.
    0:13:05 And our job was to look at the threats, national security threats, and then see how we can use our knowledge of human behavior to then attack that.
    0:13:14 So when you say much of your work was to catch spies, most of us have only ever heard of spies from watching James Bond and other things like that.
    0:13:18 So we don’t actually understand the sort of reality of spies.
    0:13:30 So if I just play completely dumb for a second, other countries send people into other countries, like the United States or the UK or Australia, Canada, to do what?
    0:13:35 So every nation state has interests.
    0:13:37 A lot of it is obtained through diplomacy.
    0:13:42 A lot of it is now obtained through what we call espionage.
    0:13:45 So it’s nothing like television and the movies.
    0:14:01 Some nations, especially hostile nations, send what we call hostile intelligence officers, usually masquerading as a diplomat, but often masquerading as students or scientists or businessmen.
    0:14:14 And their job is to acquire knowledge in specific areas, military knowledge, science and research, intentions and plans, military intentions and plans.
    0:14:25 Or they may have interest in, for instance, what is going to be the wheat production in Argentina this year, because it may affect the price of grain across the world.
    0:14:30 So there’s commercial espionage that goes on.
    0:14:39 And so every nation defends itself by trying to identify, well, who is here trying to spy?
    0:14:41 So that’s what we do.
    0:14:44 That’s counterintelligence.
    0:14:46 That’s espionage.
    0:14:48 And it’s nothing like the movies.
    0:14:52 We don’t jump from buildings.
    0:15:00 Although we do that sometimes, but it’s not as glamorous as the James Bond stuff.
    0:15:02 So have you caught spies before?
    0:15:03 I have.
    0:15:05 I’ve arrested spies, multiple spies.
    0:15:11 Give me the most interesting example of a spy that you identified in court.
    0:15:12 And what were they here doing?
    0:15:13 And which country did they come from?
    0:15:18 Well, as it turns out, it was an American, because we also have what we call turncoats.
    0:15:36 So in the case of Roderick James Ramsey, he was an individual who, in 1989, I was asked to go interview because we thought he was a witness to something that had happened in Germany.
    0:15:41 He had a former army sergeant, had been kicked out of the army.
    0:15:50 The military wanted to find out if he knew anything about some missing documents, if he had seen anything.
    0:16:01 During my interview of him, which, again, I thought he was a witness, he was smoking a cigarette at his house.
    0:16:11 And I just mentioned an individual’s name that had been at that base, but who had been under investigation by German authorities.
    0:16:17 In fact, by the Bundeskriminalamt, which is the equivalent of the FBI.
    0:16:21 There’s no reason why he should react to that.
    0:16:22 It’s just a name.
    0:16:25 But when I mentioned the name, his cigarette shook.
    0:16:35 And I knew enough about human behaviors to know that that physiological change had to be caused by something significant.
    0:16:38 Why would a name affect him?
    0:16:44 And so the scientific method talked to him for 20 more minutes about something else.
    0:16:46 And then I mentioned that name again.
    0:16:49 And sure enough, his cigarette shook again.
    0:16:54 And at that point, I was convinced that there was something nefarious there.
    0:16:56 As it turns out, the Germans arrested Conrad.
    0:16:58 Conrad was there.
    0:16:59 Clyde Conrad.
    0:17:03 That was the name of the person that had been under suspicion.
    0:17:08 The guy that I was interviewing, Rod Ramsey, was not.
    0:17:17 And so I left that interview, and then I persuaded my supervisors to continue to talk to Rod Ramsey.
    0:17:27 And that led to a 10-year investigation and the arrest of three, four, five, six, seven additional individuals.
    0:17:33 So that Rod, Roderick Ramsey guy with the shaking cigarette was a, he was spying on America?
    0:17:37 What that he was doing, and that’s a good question, and forgive me for not explaining.
    0:17:44 While he was in the army, he and Clyde Lee Conrad were stealing military secrets.
    0:17:45 From?
    0:17:47 From the U.S. Army.
    0:17:57 They were taking U.S. Army secrets and then selling it to the Soviet Union through the Hungarian Intelligence Service.
    0:17:58 So he was a traitor of the United States.
    0:17:59 So he was a traitor.
    0:18:08 And that is often the biggest problem for any nation state, is the traitors from within.
    0:18:13 And they had elevated espionage to an industrial level.
    0:18:21 I mean, to the point where they actually no longer even use 35-millimeter cameras to photograph the documents.
    0:18:28 They were actually videotaping them so that they could expedite the thousands of pages.
    0:18:44 It was the most damaging espionage case in the history of the United States because they had compromised the United States nuclear go codes in Germany.
    0:18:50 And that left all of Western Europe exposed.
    0:18:52 Nuclear go codes?
    0:18:53 Yes.
    0:18:54 What is that?
    0:19:03 All of our nuclear assets around the world are controlled by two things.
    0:19:13 There is what’s called a permissive action link, which is like a last-minute safety lock on each device.
    0:19:24 And then there is the go code that says there is authority to use this weapon.
    0:19:34 So Ramsey was able to steal the actual nuclear go code.
    0:19:36 It’s a card.
    0:19:40 It’s made out of a special material, which I cannot describe.
    0:19:45 It’s made out of special metals and plastics and other things.
    0:19:56 And the inherent danger in what they did was that not that they could initiate a launch.
    0:20:01 That can only be initiated at the national command authority level.
    0:20:25 But if this were compromised and given to, let’s say, the Russians at the time, the Soviet Union, this is before 1989, then a foreign hostile intelligence service could take that and replicate it, but put the wrong numbers in there.
    0:20:37 And by putting the wrong numbers in there, if it’s in a pyramid structure and it’s put high enough, right?
    0:20:41 Let’s say you control all of the East Coast.
    0:20:52 Maybe you don’t want to spy for Russia, but for $100,000, let’s say you were willing to slip this in there and take the one that’s there out.
    0:20:57 Okay, so maybe that helps your conscience in some way.
    0:21:04 Then you basically, if it’s a pyramid sort of schema, you can paralyze everything below that.
    0:21:10 Okay, so someone could have changed the codes, put a fake one in, which meant that it wouldn’t work anymore.
    0:21:18 At the highest level, then nothing would work if you had it accessed at the highest level.
    0:21:19 Did they go to jail?
    0:21:20 Oh, yes.
    0:21:21 Yeah.
    0:21:23 The shaking cigarette guy went to jail.
    0:21:24 33 years.
    0:21:28 Let me just finish it by saying this.
    0:21:34 This case put a ball of Western Europe in danger, as well as the United States.
    0:21:47 The general who testified in this case said that had hostilities broken out, the defeat of the West would have been assured within three days.
    0:21:50 That’s how devastating this was.
    0:21:54 Yeah, let that sink in.
    0:21:56 Those are his words.
    0:22:04 The defeat of the West would have been assured because of the damage these individuals had done.
    0:22:10 Not all cases are as significant in terms of catching spies.
    0:22:15 So I was reading about another one where you caught a man because of the way he held some flowers.
    0:22:17 Yeah.
    0:22:23 The, you know, a lot of times it’s just based on the behavior.
    0:22:27 You know, you see how often somebody looks at their watch.
    0:22:28 Right.
    0:22:32 But maybe when they’re operational, they look at their watch more often.
    0:22:39 And they filmed this guy who we thought was what we call an illegal.
    0:22:52 And in the parlance of espionage, an illegal is someone who magically appears in the United States and pretends to be an American, has always been an American, like the series, The Americans.
    0:23:06 But we had some clues from one of our sister services from another country and said, we think this individual may be someone who you need to look at that is pretending to be an American.
    0:23:11 We’re looking at the, we bring the whole team together, all six of us.
    0:23:21 And we’re looking at the, at the movie and, you know, and it was filmed just serendipitously, it was filmed on Valentine’s Day.
    0:23:26 And so we see him entering a flower shop and leaving the flower shop.
    0:23:31 When he exited, I said, definitely, he’s not an American.
    0:23:36 You know, everybody looked at me like, excuse me.
    0:23:38 And I said, he’s not from here.
    0:23:41 And he said, how?
    0:23:45 And he says, look how he’s carrying the bouquet.
    0:23:48 Americans carry the bouquet, bouquet up.
    0:23:52 Eastern Europeans carry it bouqueted down.
    0:23:57 And, and continued to carry it that way.
    0:24:00 So I, I did what’s called a presumptive.
    0:24:09 So we stopped him one day and, and I said, you know, I’m with the FBI and, and I said, do you want to know how we know?
    0:24:17 And that was the, the, the first trigger I was looking for to see how he reacts to it.
    0:24:19 And he fell for it.
    0:24:21 And he said, go on.
    0:24:25 Most people would say, get out of here, go away.
    0:24:30 And, and I said, it was how you carried the flowers.
    0:24:36 His chin came down, his eyelids went heavy.
    0:24:43 As he was evaluating everything he had done, you know, they, he had practiced everything.
    0:24:46 His, his English was immaculate.
    0:24:49 You know, he sounded like a Midwesterner and all that.
    0:24:59 After a, a few hours of having nice, really a nice chat, he agreed to work with us and admitted everything.
    0:25:00 What did he admit?
    0:25:04 That he had been sent here by a foreign government.
    0:25:13 That his job as a, as an illegal was to be in the United States, act as an American.
    0:25:22 And most people don’t understand, well, why would a country, a nation state, spend so much money training these people to be like an American?
    0:25:28 And what they don’t understand is their purpose here is for when hostilities break out.
    0:25:39 They can report on, for instance, train traffic, what trains are carrying munitions, what airports are being used for what purposes.
    0:25:56 Many times, as he later told us, they’re giving caches of explosives so that they can then blow up certain things that no missile would be able to, to do.
    0:26:00 So that’s their role in, in, in hiding in America.
    0:26:02 It’s not to commit espionage.
    0:26:06 It’s to be here in, in case hostilities break out.
    0:26:09 So you flipped him to working with the FBI?
    0:26:10 Correct.
    0:26:12 And does that mean he doesn’t get punished?
    0:26:21 Well, he doesn’t get punished because he didn’t commit any crime other than immigration violation.
    0:26:28 But what he was able to reveal to us was nothing short of breathtaking.
    0:26:30 Which nation was this?
    0:26:31 I cannot say.
    0:26:40 But obviously, they would have to have enough money and enough interest to carry out an operation like this.
    0:26:52 If you had to hazard a guess how many people that live amongst us have been sent from a foreign nation and are spies, how many do you think it is?
    0:26:55 Well, let’s define that.
    0:27:17 You know, if they’re hostile intelligence officers, it can be anywhere from 3% of the diplomatic staff to as many as, at one time, the Soviet Union, 85% of their staff were conducting espionage.
    0:27:21 I think numbers, so you have those.
    0:27:33 Now, if you’re referring to, like, how many illegals, I would say at least you would have at least two dozen in the UK, maybe a dozen in France.
    0:27:43 And, you know, you would have a whole host, a constellation of them in the United States, simply because we span five time zones.
    0:27:45 I believe the UK only spans one.
    0:27:57 I think I asked this in part because I was reading something that said much of the illegal immigrants that had come across the southern border of the United States, many of them were Chinese.
    0:28:11 And there was an article about questioning whether that was potentially an intentional act to get illegal Chinese people into the United States for some future purpose.
    0:28:15 You know, big claims require big evidence, and I haven’t seen that.
    0:28:22 In my experience, the Chinese intelligence service prefers to use students and scientists.
    0:28:27 We have approximately 80,000 Chinese students here at any one time.
    0:28:39 I know that, for instance, in the early 80s and early 90s, they would be given allowances.
    0:28:47 It always impressed me that they were given small allowances for meals, but large allowances for photocopying in the library.
    0:28:50 We call that a clue in the FBI.
    0:29:03 So they’d be given $150 for eating, but they would be given thousands of dollars so that they could copy as much as they could from the libraries.
    0:29:16 It is much easier for them, for any nation, to send people here, students, and, for instance, go into engineering or any of those things.
    0:29:25 On this subject of body language, it’s highly contested because some people say body language does give us clues.
    0:29:27 Some people say it doesn’t give us clues because there’s cultural differences.
    0:29:31 Is body language important?
    0:29:34 Well, let me address what you just asked.
    0:29:43 Well, number one, body language is supremely important because we are born without the capacity to talk.
    0:29:49 And so we have to read the baby in front of us.
    0:29:55 To argue that body language, A, doesn’t matter or it’s subject to interpretation,
    0:30:06 I would argue that that would be a minuscule sentiment around the world amongst people who really have studied this.
    0:30:08 And I’ll say why.
    0:30:20 So a baby is born without the capacity to speak, but the mother quickly learns through nonverbals whether that child is colicky,
    0:30:30 whether or not that child needs just to be reassured, whether they’re cold or hot and so forth.
    0:30:39 There’s a lot of junk out there, and that is probably the cleanest word that I can use about body language,
    0:30:41 that this means that or whatever.
    0:30:50 But we’re exquisitely prepared to communicate at any time, whether or not we’re comfortable or uncomfortable,
    0:30:54 whether we’re confident or not understanding.
    0:31:02 We had to evolve that precisely because we were always surrounded by predators.
    0:31:08 For instance, Stephen, when you have doubts or you want follow-up to questions that I ask,
    0:31:11 you use your eyes exquisitely.
    0:31:12 You furrow your glabella.
    0:31:15 One eye rises, the other one lowers it.
    0:31:16 You’re an easy read.
    0:31:19 And so I follow it up with information.
    0:31:21 You didn’t have to teach me that.
    0:31:26 Now, what I would argue is, am I seeing constraint?
    0:31:30 Am I seeing contempt or disdain?
    0:31:31 Well, that’s a silly argument.
    0:31:36 We didn’t evolve to have perfect answers.
    0:31:41 Evolution is about approximation for success.
    0:31:49 In other words, if I can be accurate 75% to 80% of the time, that’s actually good enough.
    0:31:52 It’s good enough.
    0:32:00 And so what I teach is, do you see comfort or discomfort, psychological, physical, and so forth?
    0:32:07 Do I see, as in psychology, we say, is it positively valenced or negatively valenced?
    0:32:09 Balanced, you see?
    0:32:11 You’re furrowing your glabella.
    0:32:13 What does a valenced mean?
    0:32:20 Valence really means it’s balanced or how much electricity goes this way or this way.
    0:32:22 What’s the valence of it?
    0:32:24 So if something’s positively valenced, what does that mean?
    0:32:28 Positively valenced, you’re going to see gravity-defying behaviors.
    0:32:30 You’re going to see emphasis.
    0:32:37 You’re going to see a lot of humor and alacrity and broad gestures and so forth.
    0:32:42 If it’s negatively valenced, it’s, you know, restraint.
    0:32:46 You’re going to see the furrowing of the glabella.
    0:32:51 You’re going to see the tightening, the diminution of the lips.
    0:32:53 You’re going to see a lot of facial touching.
    0:32:55 I don’t know, right?
    0:32:57 All these pacifiers.
    0:33:04 And so I would argue that stop looking for perfection.
    0:33:14 In fact, Dr. Ambadi at Harvard, unfortunately she passed away, she found that we as humans
    0:33:20 are going to be accurate 75% of the time in our assessment of each other.
    0:33:24 That’s an extraordinary number.
    0:33:26 Her research is ample.
    0:33:28 You can look up her research.
    0:33:35 It was all done on the auspices of looking for what she called thin-slice assessments.
    0:33:40 Thin-slice assessments, all of your viewers should know.
    0:33:50 Because it showed us that from as little as three milliseconds, we actually get a pretty
    0:33:52 good assessment of each other.
    0:33:55 And we write 75% of the time with three milliseconds.
    0:33:56 Yes.
    0:33:58 So they did several experiments.
    0:34:07 They had people go in and watch a teacher, for instance, by just opening the door to the
    0:34:10 classroom, watching her for a few seconds and closing the door.
    0:34:17 They rated that teacher the same as people who had sat in that classroom all semester long.
    0:34:20 In terms of…
    0:34:22 Are they a nice teacher?
    0:34:24 Are they a warm teacher?
    0:34:27 Are they an empathetic teacher?
    0:34:29 Are they a competent teacher?
    0:34:29 And so forth.
    0:34:35 It’s as you rub your face, because there’s a lot of incredulity there.
    0:34:43 You have to appreciate this experiment was done over and over and over in many areas.
    0:34:45 I was thinking, as you said it, I was thinking, fucking hell.
    0:34:52 Like, I was thinking, if someone reads you that quickly, I was thinking about how easy it is
    0:34:54 to leave a bad first impression.
    0:35:04 Well, you know, when I started studying body language, which was formally in 1971, had no
    0:35:07 appreciation for schoolwork.
    0:35:11 So I created my own study program.
    0:35:19 So when I started taking a look at body language in 1971, I remember people saying, you know,
    0:35:24 the first 20 minutes are the most important for making an impression.
    0:35:27 Then years later, it was 15 minutes.
    0:35:33 By the 1980s, somebody had said, well, it’s the first four minutes.
    0:35:34 Well, time out.
    0:35:37 That’s ancient information.
    0:35:44 We now know that that assessment is made in the first three milliseconds.
    0:35:46 That’s faster than your blink rate.
    0:35:58 And you can begin to do things poorly and badly and begin to negatively affect others in that
    0:36:04 amount of time because the subconscious is assessing others more quickly.
    0:36:07 And by the way, I didn’t mention this.
    0:36:16 We are, even before we’re born, we are assessing the world around us to the point that for survival
    0:36:26 purposes, a baby in utero begins to assess the world around by the amount of noises and by the
    0:36:35 cadence and manner of speech of the mother, so that when that baby is born, and you can look up the research,
    0:36:48 the baby will be born mirroring the native tongue so that, as researchers found, a baby with a German
    0:36:56 mother will cry differently, will cry differently, the lilt, L-I-L-T, the lilt of that baby will be different than a French
    0:36:57 baby.
    0:37:09 That which dominates so that we can fit better.
    0:37:15 And this goes right from that to business because synchrony is harmony.
    0:37:21 The faster we can synchronize, the faster we can harmonize.
    0:37:24 And so we are pre-programmed.
    0:37:30 So if your viewers are interested in that, they can look at the research that’s been done on the
    0:37:32 lilt of crying babies.
    0:37:35 How does one synchronize?
    0:37:41 So if synchrony equals harmony, i.e., if we synchronize with each other, then we’re going to be
    0:37:43 harmonious in business or in life or whatever.
    0:37:44 Right.
    0:37:46 How do I synchronize with somebody when I meet them?
    0:37:54 The first thing is, at a distance, if I saw you walking down the hallway and you say,
    0:37:57 hey, Joe, you know, and I say, Steve, how are you?
    0:37:57 Right?
    0:38:00 I’m mirroring you.
    0:38:05 You know, this goes back to the work of Carl Rogers in the early 1960s.
    0:38:15 And he found that synchrony puts us in, sort of locks us in, into this binding, psychological
    0:38:21 binding of where you greet with your hand and arch your eyebrows, hey, well, that sends powerful
    0:38:22 messages.
    0:38:27 So if I do it, can you imagine if you greeted me like this and I went, yeah, how you doing?
    0:38:28 Yeah.
    0:38:32 It’s like, we’re totally out of harmony.
    0:38:33 We’re totally out of synchrony.
    0:38:38 So we begin with the nonverbals.
    0:38:41 We begin, for instance, with the clothing.
    0:38:47 You know, if you go to a meeting, you know, we would probably dress the same way or approximate
    0:38:49 each other.
    0:38:53 We would probably have this, look at us right now with our hand gestures.
    0:38:59 We’re literally mirroring each other’s hand gestures to the point where our thumbs are
    0:39:01 precisely the same way.
    0:39:01 Why?
    0:39:03 Because we’re comfortable with each other.
    0:39:09 We would lean in if we are in good synchrony.
    0:39:23 And to the point where you can actually work with individuals to calm them down or to see things
    0:39:30 your way or to appreciate, let’s say, in negotiations, to begin to be more receptive.
    0:39:35 People are more receptive if they can mirror your behaviors.
    0:39:39 So people are more receptive if they can mirror your behaviors.
    0:39:46 So if I let you mirror my behavior, then you’re going to be more receptive to what I have to say.
    0:39:46 Is that what you’re saying?
    0:39:52 In general, we cannot be mimicking each other like it’s a game.
    0:39:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
    0:39:55 It becomes ridiculous.
    0:40:02 But there’s no way we can negotiate if you’re screaming and I’m stoic.
    0:40:03 Yeah.
    0:40:05 It just, it doesn’t happen.
    0:40:12 For instance, you and I probably are doing a pretty good job of just mirroring each other
    0:40:15 in the conversation.
    0:40:21 We are likely, more likely to be successful, have more face time, and achieve more if we
    0:40:30 can talk to each other this way than if all of a sudden I decide to sit sideways, kick my
    0:40:34 feet up, and lean on my elbow.
    0:40:41 That gesture alone, even though it’s a comfort display, doesn’t put us in synchrony.
    0:40:49 And everything that I have ever found was, even when I was talking to terrorists, even when
    0:40:56 talking to terrorists who absolutely hated me, hated a lot of other things, if I could just
    0:41:05 get them grounded to the point where we are talking basically the same way and using the
    0:41:11 same words, if they say, my family, don’t say wife and kids.
    0:41:13 Use family.
    0:41:15 Don’t use terms of art.
    0:41:17 You know, if they say, well, what’s the price?
    0:41:22 Don’t come back and say, well, the points on this.
    0:41:24 That’s not what they asked.
    0:41:30 That’s a great way to demonstrate that you’re not listening.
    0:41:38 And the other thing I always emphasize is that for years people said, well, try to reduce
    0:41:43 everything that’s emotional so that it doesn’t interfere.
    0:41:46 That’s not how we evolved.
    0:41:48 That is absolutely not how we evolved.
    0:41:54 We evolved to deal with emotions because emotions keep us alive.
    0:42:02 When our amygdala senses a threat, it is there to deal with that.
    0:42:06 And anything negative rises to prominence.
    0:42:09 That’s one of the first things I teach.
    0:42:13 If it’s really negative, it rises to prominence.
    0:42:15 We assess for it first.
    0:42:16 We deal with that first.
    0:42:23 And often in business, what we see is, you know, somebody had a hard time finding your
    0:42:24 location.
    0:42:25 They had a hard time parking.
    0:42:32 Then they had to go to your receptionist who was on the phone and took about seven minutes
    0:42:34 to even say good morning.
    0:42:37 And when they did, they did it with no alacrity.
    0:42:39 Then they have to go through security.
    0:42:45 Then they have to take the elevator that’s crowded and then finally get to your office.
    0:42:55 And you want them to jump right into the meeting without all that negativity that has been accrued.
    0:42:58 That’s not how humans evolved.
    0:43:02 That is absolutely not how our species evolved.
    0:43:11 Our species evolved to deconflict that, to diminish that by first dealing with that.
    0:43:17 That’s where storytelling in part came from, where we came and said, you know, I chased it.
    0:43:21 I was able to attack me, then I attacked back, you know.
    0:43:27 And then we go through that whole storytelling, which has mythical proportions and mythical aspects
    0:43:29 as archetypes.
    0:43:36 And if you subscribe to Jungian psychology, one of the arguments that I always use is this.
    0:43:44 How many of you have been in an argument and then 30 minutes later, you remember all the clever lines
    0:43:45 you should have said?
    0:43:46 We all have.
    0:43:51 And that’s because the emotional brain hijacks neural activity.
    0:43:57 If you want the best out of people, if you want the best out of a relationship, vent that.
    0:43:58 Get that out.
    0:44:01 Give it time.
    0:44:02 Okay.
    0:44:09 And yes, you’re going to have to invest that time and then move forward so that you can deal
    0:44:14 with the transactional, the business and so forth.
    0:44:20 You’ve referenced a few times different types of body language that I’ve exhibited that help
    0:44:22 you understand what I’m thinking and going through.
    0:44:23 Yes.
    0:44:25 I think a second ago, you referenced glabula.
    0:44:30 And this brings me to something I read in your work about eyebrow knitting.
    0:44:31 Yeah.
    0:44:32 What is eyebrow knitting?
    0:44:38 So this little area between your eyes is called the glabella.
    0:44:47 And the glabella is great because at about, well, I’ve seen it in babies as early as three
    0:44:48 or four days.
    0:44:52 But very early on, we begin to furrow.
    0:44:59 In other words, we push this together when we have doubts or we don’t like something or we
    0:45:00 don’t understand something.
    0:45:03 So we furrowed the glabella.
    0:45:10 Some people call it eyebrow knitting because we have nicer eyebrows nowadays, not bushy like
    0:45:11 the old days.
    0:45:14 They don’t come together like they used to.
    0:45:28 So a lot of those expressions of, I don’t understand, we use with the squinted eyes, the furrowed glabella.
    0:45:33 You know, sometimes we’ll touch our face or scratch our face.
    0:45:39 Babies at 47 seconds, which I have directly observed.
    0:45:48 If you shine a light at a newborn baby, it will furrow the chin that they don’t like it.
    0:45:57 And in my presentations, I have a matching one of a 47-year-old man and a 47-second-old baby,
    0:46:01 both doing the same thing when they hear things they don’t like.
    0:46:07 So we begin to communicate quite a lot, actually, with our faces.
    0:46:09 What about eyelid touching?
    0:46:10 Yeah.
    0:46:18 So for a long time, including in some of my writing, the theory was a lot of people cover
    0:46:21 their eyes, touch their eyes when they hear bad news.
    0:46:25 You said, hey, Joe, can you help me move this weekend?
    0:46:27 Oh, geez, Steve.
    0:46:28 Right?
    0:46:30 You see a lot of that.
    0:46:36 And I started to think about that about five or six years ago.
    0:46:40 And so I took some classes in anatomy, human anatomy.
    0:46:49 And I’m pretty much convinced now that a lot of the facial touching, including the touching
    0:46:56 of the eyes and so forth, has to do with the innervation of the fifth cranial nerve and the
    0:46:57 seventh cranial nerve.
    0:47:04 Now, some of your viewers may find this interesting, that nerve, which goes to our forehead and
    0:47:12 actually goes into our eyelids and so forth, and the seventh, which is the facial, is very
    0:47:16 short in distance to that part of the brain where it is received.
    0:47:22 And so I think, you know, I’ve postulated, I wrote for Psychology Today, that a lot of the
    0:47:32 reasons why we touch our face and why we touch our eyes, oh, no, is because that pressure
    0:47:38 immediately goes to the brain and helps to relieve stress.
    0:47:40 And because the nerve is so short, right?
    0:47:44 We could massage our feet and achieve the same, but it’s very far away.
    0:47:52 So I think a lot of facial touching, including eye touching, we do because of its ability
    0:47:56 to, anytime there’s stress, we pacify ourselves.
    0:47:58 And by the way, it’s very interesting.
    0:48:02 In 1974, I was bored at the university.
    0:48:07 So there was a lab where you could actually watch children and study them at play.
    0:48:11 And they had some children there that were born blind, so they had never seen.
    0:48:13 And I was just blown away.
    0:48:20 The first time I saw a blind child who had never seen, heard some news that was not very
    0:48:24 good and immediately covered their eyes, having never seen.
    0:48:30 And that’s when I realized, OK, we are 2.4 million years old.
    0:48:33 This is hardwired in our DNA.
    0:48:38 This is part of our paleo circuits, as Dr. David Gibbons later taught me.
    0:48:41 And it has to do with how it feels.
    0:48:43 And that’s why we touch our faces so much.
    0:48:49 So it’s typically a negative emotion and a form of self-soothing for that negative emotion.
    0:48:50 I think that’s a good synopsis.
    0:48:55 But also keep in mind how often we touch our faces when we’re having a nice time.
    0:49:00 Like when I’m reading, I find myself turning pages because I read very fast.
    0:49:07 I turn with my left hand, but I pacify or soothe myself by touching my, you know, it’s a
    0:49:08 penzive pose.
    0:49:11 Women will play with their hair.
    0:49:18 All day long, our brain is asking us to do things to contribute to that.
    0:49:24 But when there’s something stressful, then, for instance, we go from like in negotiations, when
    0:49:29 somebody throws a number we don’t like, we’ll go from touching our face to scratching our
    0:49:37 face because the brain is saying, hey, do something more powerful that will keep me in what we call
    0:49:39 homeostasis.
    0:49:45 So to answer your question, yes, but it also applies to when we’re really enjoying a moment.
    0:49:46 What about our lips?
    0:49:49 You talked a second ago about like pursed lips and stuff.
    0:49:50 What kind of clues do the lips give away?
    0:49:51 Yeah.
    0:49:56 So for me, the lips are the seismograph.
    0:50:00 The lips are like the emotional seismograph of the body.
    0:50:09 When we are comfortable and confident, our lips are full of blood, their color changes.
    0:50:15 The minute we hear something we don’t like, blood actually begins to leave the lips and they
    0:50:18 become narrower and then we begin to tighten them.
    0:50:24 You know, if somebody says something I don’t like, I might go, hmm, right?
    0:50:34 Or we begin to bite the lip because we’re stressed or we pluck it, pull on it, do all sorts of things
    0:50:35 to soothe it.
    0:50:43 But the lips get very, show a lot of nervous emotion when we’re under stress.
    0:50:46 So they’re very much, as is the jaw.
    0:50:53 Like for instance, if you said something I might not agree with, I probably shift my jaw because
    0:50:57 when you shift your jaw, it puts pressure on the TMJ.
    0:51:05 And that alone says to the brain, go somewhere else, don’t, don’t, you know, don’t struggle
    0:51:06 too much with that.
    0:51:12 So we’re always doing something physical to counter anything that the brain might be undergoing.
    0:51:16 Tell me about the super sternal notch.
    0:51:21 So the super sternal notch, it has other names.
    0:51:28 You could call it the little neck dimple, this little area right at the bottom of your throat.
    0:51:31 It’s a deep indentation.
    0:51:36 This is the most vulnerable part of the human body.
    0:51:43 All air, food, nutrients, blood, electricity, oxygen, everything goes through there.
    0:51:49 And what happens is, and one of the things that I found was that there was nothing in the
    0:51:56 literature in 1975, 76, I’m looking and I’m noticing that when people are nervous, they
    0:52:00 immediately cover their neck, they touch their neck.
    0:52:06 You know, in the literature, you hear about, oh, she, you know, clutched her pearls, right?
    0:52:12 Rubbing that men tend to do it more robustly because of testosterone.
    0:52:17 Women tend to more directly touch the super sternal notch.
    0:52:23 And what I found is, when there’s a lack of confidence, insecurities, fear, apprehensions,
    0:52:28 or concerns, that people will go, oh, my God, did you see that, right?
    0:52:29 Oh, it’s gone.
    0:52:30 It’s bad.
    0:52:36 And, you know, why is it all directed at this little area of the neck?
    0:52:41 And why do men clutch their necks and massage their necks when they’re, it’s the worst thing
    0:52:46 you can do in negotiations, by the way, is touch your neck, because what you’re transmitting
    0:52:47 is weakness.
    0:52:52 Somebody whose confidence is never touches the neck.
    0:52:53 You just don’t.
    0:52:55 You don’t go anywhere near the neck.
    0:53:01 And you don’t ventilate, because what you’re saying is you’re getting to me, ventilating behaviors.
    0:53:05 Wait, sorry, when you say ventilate, you mean giving yourself air?
    0:53:05 Yeah.
    0:53:06 So it could be-
    0:53:14 So ventilating behaviors are behaviors of weakness, because your body temperature has changed at
    0:53:15 one to fiftieth of a second.
    0:53:19 And what you’re revealing is something negative is getting to you.
    0:53:21 So you don’t do that.
    0:53:26 But here’s the behavior, the neck touching, neck covering, covering of the supra sternal
    0:53:27 notch.
    0:53:29 And there’s another behavior.
    0:53:32 You know, earlier we talked about we were surrounded by predators.
    0:53:39 And one of the behaviors we did was to cover our mouths or hold still when we hear a noise.
    0:53:42 The third behavior is to cover the neck.
    0:53:49 To cover the neck, because large felines always go for the neck.
    0:53:55 And so the brain didn’t, doesn’t have a closet full of ties.
    0:53:58 It has about four choices.
    0:54:04 And those four behaviors are exquisite.
    0:54:11 It’s proven over time that if we cover our mouth, cover the neck, don’t move, they work
    0:54:11 pretty well.
    0:54:14 So we don’t have to choose a lot of colors.
    0:54:21 And the other thing sometimes you’ll see people do is when you see this here in Florida, and
    0:54:26 we certainly saw it in November after the hurricane, people come to see their house and they cover
    0:54:28 their head, hands are up here.
    0:54:30 Oh, my God.
    0:54:32 You know, why do we do that?
    0:54:35 Again, large felines.
    0:54:37 These are shortcuts.
    0:54:42 This is heuristics that have prevailed and say, oh, no, right?
    0:54:48 And you say, well, we’re no longer surrounded by them.
    0:54:49 Well, go to India.
    0:54:52 There were 238 attacks last year.
    0:54:55 It is in our DNA.
    0:55:01 It is performed out of necessity to keep us alive.
    0:55:03 So we have these reactions.
    0:55:12 But so I look at the, certainly I look at the lips and the neck as good places for information.
    0:55:15 I was just thinking then about why, yeah, you hold your head.
    0:55:18 But you also hold your head when you see something that’s fallen over.
    0:55:21 So if you see like a building falling down and an earthquake, you immediately.
    0:55:31 The other day, it was an old car and it was parked on a road that was at an angle and they forgot to set the brake.
    0:55:34 And I’m watching it slowly slide.
    0:55:39 And I found myself, I teach this stuff with my hands up here.
    0:55:45 And unfortunately, it was across the street and I couldn’t get to it fast enough.
    0:55:46 And it didn’t do any damage.
    0:55:53 But you realize these shortcuts are with us for a purpose.
    0:55:57 Much of the work you do as an FBI agent is some form of negotiation.
    0:56:02 And you spend a lot of time teaching people how to be good negotiators as well.
    0:56:03 You mentioned negotiation a second ago.
    0:56:05 I’m a business person.
    0:56:10 I do lots of negotiations, whether it’s with clients or suppliers or interviews.
    0:56:13 You know, I’m interviewing people all the time, which I consider to be a negotiation.
    0:56:16 How do I improve my negotiation skills?
    0:56:18 What are the things I should be thinking about as I go into the negotiation?
    0:56:21 Well, you know, they warned me.
    0:56:23 You ask profound questions.
    0:56:26 And you’re right.
    0:56:33 In the FBI, I mean, when you’re trying to convince someone to tell us the truth and put themselves
    0:56:37 in jeopardy, that is nothing but negotiations.
    0:56:40 You may look at it as interviewing.
    0:56:47 But like you said, even a conversation, you know, I look at negotiations in the same way that
    0:56:57 I look at interviewing, it’s in the simplest form, it’s effective communication with a purpose.
    0:57:01 So you say, well, that’s highly simplistic.
    0:57:03 I’ve never heard that.
    0:57:03 Well, think of it.
    0:57:05 Well, what is the purpose?
    0:57:07 OK, well, we’ll get to that in a minute.
    0:57:11 Either you have something I need or want or that.
    0:57:18 But there has to be communication and there has to be an understanding of what I mean and
    0:57:21 what I intend and so forth.
    0:57:24 So for me, it’s a reminder.
    0:57:32 When I first came into the FBI, an old timer said to me, interviewing isn’t about the confession.
    0:57:34 And I looked at him like, what?
    0:57:36 Excuse me?
    0:57:38 What do you mean not about the confession?
    0:57:40 He says, you’ll get the confession.
    0:57:44 Interviewing is about FaceTime.
    0:57:51 If you can get people to talk to you for two hours, three hours, four hours.
    0:57:55 In one case, I interviewed an individual for 12 hours.
    0:58:03 They’ll tell you everything you need to know, but you got to keep them in the room.
    0:58:11 And so I always view negotiations of number one is how do I communicate with you in a way that
    0:58:11 you’ll want to talk to me?
    0:58:20 You’ll want to talk to me for however long it takes to get to that purpose, which is the
    0:58:21 transaction.
    0:58:32 Now, if I’m evaluating you for your services or if I’m negotiating for prices, I want to hear
    0:58:47 what you have to say and I want to say and I want to lay out what I’m interested in achieving and then reconciling or working around whatever discrepancies or issues that there may be.
    0:59:02 I think when we look at negotiations that way, we can say, well, that means I got to do a lot of stuff up front, which is who am I communicating with?
    0:59:03 Who am I going to negotiate with?
    0:59:05 What’s the negotiating style?
    0:59:06 Are they stoic?
    0:59:07 Do they come in?
    0:59:09 Do they throw things down?
    0:59:21 I mean, I’ve been in negotiations where opposing counsel came in and literally walked into the room, didn’t even say good morning, just threw the things down and said, I want to hear the numbers.
    0:59:28 Okay, then how do we begin to deal with that?
    0:59:34 Because someone that comes in and is aggressive and so forth, you’ve got to deal with.
    0:59:35 What do you do?
    0:59:38 Do you rise to their aggression or do you try and bring them down to your position?
    0:59:40 Great question.
    0:59:43 The worst thing you can do is rise to that.
    0:59:48 You begin to dominate them by taking control of time.
    0:59:53 Whoever controls time controls.
    0:59:58 And so they come in, they throw the things down.
    1:00:05 So usually, you know, we’ll start with, well, good morning to you too.
    1:00:09 Yeah, yeah, let’s cut to the chase.
    1:00:17 And then the whole team I’m working with knows we’re going to slow things down.
    1:00:23 We are not going to be working at that pace because if you work at that pace, they’re taking control.
    1:00:25 And so we slow things down.
    1:00:29 And there’s several strategies.
    1:00:39 You can become, all of a sudden, you can become very visual and say, all right, we’re going to, you know, write this down and we’re going to put this here.
    1:00:45 We’re going to put, you know, and then this is the difference of, you know, there’s a lot of strategies.
    1:00:55 But the first thing is we’ve got to get that person to understand that we negotiate, hopefully, as equals.
    1:01:10 But if the perception is always that that person is negotiating as the bully or is always in charge, you’re never going to have equity.
    1:01:21 Now, I’ve had a lot of clients that have said, hey, you know, I’ve tried all your strategies and, you know, this guy I’m dealing with is just, he’s crass.
    1:01:22 He’s just a bully.
    1:01:29 He comes in and he’s stuff like, and so one of the questions I always ask is, is he the only source?
    1:01:33 Is he or she the only source, number one?
    1:01:39 And number two is how long are you willing to tolerate this person?
    1:01:42 Because we fail to look at that.
    1:01:43 He gives you headaches.
    1:01:45 You don’t sleep well every time you go to this.
    1:01:47 I’m thinking of one client in particular.
    1:01:55 You come away with a nervous stomach and, you know, how long are you willing to tolerate that?
    1:01:59 If you’re willing to tolerate it, then, you know, he’s not going to change his style.
    1:02:05 Then you come in and we change our exposure.
    1:02:09 So we’re not going to expose all of our staff to that kind of negativity.
    1:02:15 We send in our first person and say, look, here are the numbers and we work with that.
    1:02:20 But there are ways to dealing with the very toxic.
    1:02:26 But we don’t allow them to get away with everything nor think that they’re in charge.
    1:02:28 And we do it in subtle ways.
    1:02:32 And we sort of derail their agenda.
    1:02:41 Maybe their agenda, based on past meetings, was to come in and just throw these things at us very quickly.
    1:02:44 Then we have to adjust to that.
    1:02:49 So there has to be rehearsed strategies for dealing with that.
    1:02:59 One of the things your work made me think about is how important it is to literally, like, write down the goal of my negotiation before I go into the negotiation.
    1:03:03 Or else you might get swept up in the emotion of it and the sort of heat of the moment.
    1:03:09 Yeah, you wouldn’t be the first one to find yourself in a meeting negotiating.
    1:03:14 And all of a sudden, you’re, you know, it’s like, what are we actually negotiating for?
    1:03:25 And so that’s why I like the simplicity of effective communication with a purpose as a form of negotiations.
    1:03:39 Because many times we go into negotiations and the chief financial officer is there.
    1:03:46 Sometimes we go in there and, you know, your first assistant is always there also.
    1:03:51 But you also have in-office counsel that is in attendance.
    1:03:52 What’s their role?
    1:03:54 And what is my role?
    1:03:58 You know, something so simple as, what are you going to do?
    1:04:03 Look straight ahead the whole time your attorney is speaking?
    1:04:06 Or are you going to look at him?
    1:04:17 Well, we know from the research that by looking at the person who’s actually talking on your side actually potentiates the gravity of what he’s saying.
    1:04:32 That at the most emphatic points that when that attorney makes, and you did this earlier, you want to steeple because steeple is the most powerful gesture that we have to convey confidence.
    1:04:34 Steepling is in this little hand gesture.
    1:04:38 Steepling is this former German chancellor, Angela Merkel, did this a lot.
    1:04:41 You see Musk do this a lot.
    1:04:46 You see Steve Jobs used to, a lot of pictures of Steve Jobs doing that.
    1:04:52 But, you know, you reserve that for that point in time when you want to emphasize.
    1:04:57 And so the worst thing you can do is just to sit there dormant.
    1:05:03 And in fact, we have research and it’s called the still face experiments.
    1:05:08 And that is that the worst thing you can do is sit at a meeting and hold a still face.
    1:05:12 You’re perceived as a threat.
    1:05:14 You’re perceived as less trustworthy.
    1:05:16 You’re perceived as insignificant.
    1:05:19 Corner of your mouths are down.
    1:05:21 I roll to the right, Stephen.
    1:05:23 That’s how you’re perceived.
    1:05:27 And that’s and that’s what happens.
    1:05:35 The experiments, which were done first with babies, found that if you take a baby and it’s called a still face experiments.
    1:05:41 If you take a baby and you look away and look back and and smile, the baby’s content.
    1:05:43 You can do that several times.
    1:05:46 But on the last one, you turn around and you hold very still.
    1:05:48 The babies become.
    1:05:51 Incontrollable.
    1:05:53 They they they have fits.
    1:05:55 They’re really troubled by that.
    1:06:00 So the experimenter said, well, yeah, but what age is that leave us?
    1:06:02 So they decided to do it with adults.
    1:06:05 Adults do the same thing.
    1:06:11 If you and I are talking and we’re exchanging faces, the worst thing I can do is then sit there.
    1:06:16 You see, you find it disconcerting.
    1:06:17 Yeah.
    1:06:19 And what the brain perceives is a threat.
    1:06:22 And you lose trustworthiness.
    1:06:26 Because you can’t read what this person’s thinking either way.
    1:06:29 I’d rather you be unhappy than at least I can put that in a box.
    1:06:31 Well, that’s one way to look at it.
    1:06:36 I’m not sure that anybody knows the the precise reason for it.
    1:06:48 But what we do understand is that the still face, which if you’re in a virtual call, you want to nod, you want to tilt your head, you want to make different gestures.
    1:06:50 But the worst thing you can do is hold still.
    1:06:59 And then in negotiations, when you’re talking to the team and saying, look, when we’re going in there, you know, I don’t want anybody to just sit there.
    1:07:07 I want expressions, and when someone is speaking, you know, you’re looking at them in the same way that the other side would do.
    1:07:09 But you have to plan.
    1:07:19 Now, the other thing I find with negotiators, one thing I did in the FBI is I always planned my interviews in exquisite detail.
    1:07:22 Who would enter the room first?
    1:07:24 Who would say what?
    1:07:25 Where I would sit?
    1:07:27 Who gets offered water and when?
    1:07:31 Because I need to be in control.
    1:07:34 Who’s going to say what?
    1:07:37 These are things people don’t think about.
    1:07:44 But at the levels with the people that I deal with, you have to have a certain amount of advantage.
    1:07:56 You have to have a certain amount of psychological leverage to say, look, you may be the world’s largest manufacturer of this, and I’m just starting out.
    1:08:00 But I am not down here.
    1:08:12 And so I would appreciate if you would begin to value me, and I do that by doing certain things in the manner that I walk in.
    1:08:32 You take command of the situation, and it looks aesthetically pleasing, oh, isn’t it nice?
    1:08:36 He’s offering me something to drink.
    1:08:41 Or the assistant or someone says, would you like some tea?
    1:08:42 How would you like it?
    1:08:43 And so forth.
    1:08:58 And what we’re actually witnessing is the transformation of you have now become the dominant person by becoming the archetypal, the father or mother figure.
    1:09:00 Because you’re offering something.
    1:09:01 Because you’re offering it.
    1:09:05 And you’re in control of the food and the brain.
    1:09:15 You know, people often wonder, well, why was it in Stockholm, Sweden back in the 70s that the Stockholm syndrome took hold so fast with those bank robbers,
    1:09:26 where they had such an effect on their victims that within hours the victims were defending the bank robbers.
    1:09:27 It was very simple.
    1:09:32 They became the father figure, and the hostages became the children.
    1:09:34 So I actually don’t know that story.
    1:09:44 What happened was there was a bank robbery in Stockholm, and the bank robbers went in, held the victims hostage.
    1:09:47 Eventually, they were rescued.
    1:09:56 But what they found was that in a matter of hours, the victims were rising to the defense of the criminals.
    1:10:00 And it became known as the Stockholm syndrome.
    1:10:10 And what it showed us was the robbers became the archetype of the parent, and the hostages became the children.
    1:10:15 And in an instant, they became subservient.
    1:10:17 Is that what happens in domestic abuse cases as well?
    1:10:18 Yes.
    1:10:19 You nailed it.
    1:10:21 You nailed it beautifully.
    1:10:26 You’re the first person to get that right away.
    1:10:31 And that’s why you often see this in domestic abuse cases.
    1:10:33 And you say, how can she just got beat up?
    1:10:38 How can she defend him, usually the case?
    1:10:44 And you realize, oh, my God, we have like a Stockholm syndrome where he’s the provider.
    1:10:46 He’s the only one working or this or that.
    1:10:58 But, you know, getting back to negotiations, I think it’s one of those things that I insist that if you go into negotiations, that you be treated at least as an equal.
    1:11:06 And that the minute people start to look down on you, it makes for a very difficult conversation.
    1:11:19 So when you’re thinking about walking into the room and all these where you sit, if you’re walking into the room to interview a terrorist, are you trying to walk into the room first or are you trying to walk into the room last?
    1:11:22 Do you send your team in to walk in first, then you show up last?
    1:11:25 And what are you thinking about seating positions?
    1:11:26 Right.
    1:11:32 So one of the things that I always insisted is I would walk into the room first.
    1:11:35 So they would already be in there?
    1:11:36 No, no, no.
    1:11:39 We would walk to the room.
    1:11:39 Oh, with them.
    1:11:40 With them.
    1:11:43 And then I would just make them wait there a minute.
    1:11:44 I’d open it.
    1:11:48 I’d take a look and I’d say, oh, just want to make sure the room is safe and there’s nobody in here.
    1:11:51 You know, I’ve walked into people before.
    1:11:55 That begins to establish my dominance.
    1:12:01 And then I would say, why don’t you take a seat right there?
    1:12:08 You know, people ask me, well, why, you know, why are you being so nice to these criminals?
    1:12:13 Well, first of all, I go back to what that old timer said.
    1:12:14 I want FaceTime.
    1:12:17 I don’t care what it takes to get FaceTime.
    1:12:19 But I also want to be in charge.
    1:12:30 And if by being nice to him and pointing to the nice chair there achieves that, then so much for me.
    1:12:35 And then I always try to sit in a way that I sit higher.
    1:12:47 Now, in the case of Ramsey, we’d literally get the room ahead of time and we would change the furniture so that I always set about an inch to two inches higher than he did.
    1:12:49 He never noticed that.
    1:12:52 Ramsey was the guy whose cigarette was quivering.
    1:12:53 Was quivering.
    1:12:58 In the end, we ended up doing 37 interviews.
    1:13:03 And they were all done in hotel rooms, mostly in the Orlando area.
    1:13:11 And we would go in ahead of time and we would just arrange the furniture or bring in furniture.
    1:13:13 But I always sat higher than him.
    1:13:14 He never understood that.
    1:13:26 He always sat on the couch, which somehow about that much was shaved from the couch so that it always sat a little lower.
    1:13:32 And so he was always literally slightly looking up to us.
    1:13:36 And then we controlled when we would take breaks.
    1:13:42 And I, you know, and I was always attentive and I would say, you know, would you like something to drink now?
    1:13:45 I said, well, this is such a good subject.
    1:13:53 Why don’t we take the break now and you, you have the drink now and then we’ll, so we can continue.
    1:14:04 What he didn’t realize was that I was establishing control over him by sort of dictating.
    1:14:10 It would be no, you know, I’m sure your listeners might be saying, boy, that’s manipulative.
    1:14:19 Yeah, but in the transactional phase, it’s no different than you saying to your crew, I need to take a break right now and go to the restroom.
    1:14:20 Okay, take a break.
    1:14:22 I don’t think that much of it.
    1:14:33 But over time, what happens is he begins to relinquish a lot of that forcefulness that he’d love to exhibit.
    1:14:38 He’d love to be in charge, but I’m not permitting it.
    1:14:43 And sometimes he would say, well, I could use a smoke break right now.
    1:14:48 And I’d say, hang on a second, because what you just said was really interesting.
    1:14:52 And my partner, Mrs. Terry Moody, I loved her.
    1:14:53 She was a great partner.
    1:14:57 She looked at me like, really, you’re going to push it that much further?
    1:15:08 But it worked to the point where, I mean, here’s a guy who had his attorney’s phone number on him at all times, and he never used that.
    1:15:12 You mentioned the height of the chairs.
    1:15:15 What does height matter in this context?
    1:15:27 Because I was thinking as well about Zoom, and the interesting thing about now, about Zoom, we were talking about this before we started recording, and the fact that most of our conversations are happening digitally now, is we don’t often think about height.
    1:15:45 And I’m sometimes on a call with one of my colleagues or partners, and I’ll often ask them before the client or whoever we’re doing business with joins the call to adjust the height, because they are like looking down into the lens, or they’re looking up into the lens, which I think is also suboptimal.
    1:15:54 A good term, there’s a good term, there’s a lot to be said about height, just as there is a beauty dividend, right?
    1:16:09 So the beauty dividend, and you can look this up, the beauty dividend, well-researched, basically says you’re going to earn 8% per year the rest of your life, just if you are good looking.
    1:16:15 That’s the beauty dividend, you can go online and look at all the studies and the statistics that go with it.
    1:16:19 But there’s also a height dividend, and it is universal.
    1:16:42 If you look at Americans that are 6 feet 2 inches, so a little taller than me, accounts for about 3% of the population, unless you go to the Fortune 500 companies, and then they account for 39% of all CEOs at 6’2″.
    1:16:49 Whoa, that, my friend, is an order of increase.
    1:16:54 And you say, are taller people smarter?
    1:17:01 No, no, it has to do with the benefit of being tall.
    1:17:09 There is a dividend, and so we tend to see that across the world.
    1:17:15 The word dividend, for anyone that doesn’t know, basically means a benefit or a reward, one could think of it as.
    1:17:15 An advantage.
    1:17:17 You have an advantage.
    1:17:22 So with Ramsey, what was the dividend by you making your charge just an inch taller?
    1:17:23 What were you doing, Tim?
    1:17:25 You were taking away his power a little bit, making you more powerful?
    1:17:29 I had to because he had all the cards.
    1:17:31 He was the spy.
    1:17:38 He had all the evidence in his head or in his possession, or the Russians had it.
    1:17:40 The Russians weren’t going to give it to us.
    1:17:41 They’re the enemy.
    1:17:45 They said, too bad, mates, but we’ve got all your secrets.
    1:17:49 They had so many secrets that they measured it in weight, not just in pages.
    1:17:53 The other problem I was dealing with was his IQ.
    1:18:01 He had the second highest IQ that the army ever recorded since World War II.
    1:18:06 He could talk on any subject, quantum physics to whatever.
    1:18:15 When you have a superior intellect, in his case, which was true, or you’re dealing with someone,
    1:18:18 let’s say, who is malignant narcissist.
    1:18:23 So they account for about 2% of the population, but about 20% of CEOs.
    1:18:33 So your malignant narcissist who overvalues themselves and tends to devalue others,
    1:18:39 and in my case with him, he had narcissistic traits, which I could deal with,
    1:18:46 but his superior intellect was breathtaking, and he had perfect recall.
    1:18:53 So in a way, it was frightening, because all he had to do was transport himself to another country,
    1:18:57 and he could sell all the secrets that he had memorized.
    1:19:04 So I had to play a certain role, but I also couldn’t let him take charge of the investigation,
    1:19:12 and not one that had put England, Germany, all of Western Europe in jeopardy,
    1:19:15 as well as Canada and the United States.
    1:19:22 I could not afford, the United States government couldn’t afford to have him be flippant
    1:19:30 with the knowledge that he knew, especially once we knew that he had compromised the nuclear go codes.
    1:19:32 Do you mind if I pause this conversation for a moment?
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    1:20:26 What about posture?
    1:20:29 Because that’s kind of one way to make yourself taller.
    1:20:30 Yeah.
    1:20:32 Are there any clues in someone’s posture,
    1:20:37 and how important is sort of playing with our posture to create a different impression?
    1:20:39 Yeah, absolutely.
    1:20:43 Not just posture, but territory.
    1:20:52 So I look at posture as, you know, when we look confident, shoulders back, our breathing.
    1:20:57 To me, posture starts with the brain, how calm we are in our breathing.
    1:21:04 I was, again, in Valencia at this event, and a lady came up to me, and she says,
    1:21:08 you’re getting ready to go on the stage, how can you not be nervous?
    1:21:10 And I said, well, I am nervous.
    1:21:11 I’m just hiding it.
    1:21:18 I’m acting like I’m in control, but I’ve learned to do that,
    1:21:21 because you don’t want to look like a nervous FBI agent.
    1:21:22 Trust me.
    1:21:25 You want to look cool, calm, and collected.
    1:21:31 In negotiations, you don’t want to look needy.
    1:21:34 You don’t want to look desperate.
    1:21:43 And at the same time, you don’t want to come across as you’re indifferent.
    1:21:51 And sometimes that demeanor, that posture, those gestures, the totality of it has a lot of meaning.
    1:21:58 Now, you have to keep in mind, a lot of successful businessmen I’m running into are actually on the spectrum, right?
    1:21:59 So, the autism spectrum.
    1:22:02 And so, they don’t make as much eye contact.
    1:22:05 They may have behaviors that are irregular.
    1:22:11 I have one I deal with who has Asperger’s, and so he sometimes jerks.
    1:22:16 And so, there’s a lot of discomfort, I find, from others in reading him.
    1:22:17 I don’t have any problem.
    1:22:22 I just see it, okay, this is his normal behaviors, and we get around.
    1:22:26 But you can tell a lot about a person.
    1:22:31 And when you’ve invested in things, you’re doing your diligence, and you’re talking to people.
    1:22:35 Yeah, you can look at the numbers all day long.
    1:22:49 But you also are looking at the nonverbals and saying, you know, are they communicating confidence, or are they communicating desire, or need, or any kind of frailty?
    1:22:53 I was just reflecting on a few of the interviews I’ve had recently.
    1:22:55 We’ve been interviewing for one particular very, very senior role.
    1:22:58 And there were two final stage candidates.
    1:23:04 And I was just reflecting, as you were saying, how one of the final stage candidates was extremely calm and sat back in their chair.
    1:23:07 And the other one was very much leaning forward.
    1:23:11 And upon reflection, the second candidate wanted the job a lot more.
    1:23:17 But the first candidate was probably more experienced, more confident, and had higher self-worth.
    1:23:29 And their ability to be so relaxed in that environment, and kind of own the chair in my boardroom, was actually, it actually made me kind of want them more.
    1:23:33 Because they were signaling to me that they had lots of options.
    1:23:34 They weren’t intimidated.
    1:23:35 They weren’t scared.
    1:23:37 They weren’t nervous about this opportunity.
    1:23:41 You know, that’s an interesting observation, Stephen.
    1:23:46 And it’s very good that you observe the discrepancy.
    1:23:51 One of the things that I look for is, what is their role going to be?
    1:23:54 I don’t mind that somebody is nervous.
    1:24:03 I, myself, early on, coming from a humble background, was often nervous.
    1:24:14 I tend to focus on the things that most organizations don’t put into their plan to look for.
    1:24:17 One of them is problem solving.
    1:24:22 Give me a list of the problems you have solved.
    1:24:28 Most people, when they hire, they never ask that question.
    1:24:30 They tell, you know, I can do Excel.
    1:24:32 I know Microsoft.
    1:24:33 That’s great.
    1:24:40 Please tell me what problems you have solved at your last job.
    1:24:44 And, you know, how efficiently did you do it?
    1:24:49 How do you know if they solved the problem or they were on a team where someone else solved the problem?
    1:24:58 Because one of the things that I said, you know, look for is, is how many instances they tell and how they describe it.
    1:24:59 Because here’s what’s interesting.
    1:25:10 The person who solves the problem goes into the detail and feels the emotion of the person that’s telling the story.
    1:25:17 Only conveys it, only conveys it, but doesn’t know the emotion that is attached to solving it.
    1:25:31 So when you, when that little child finally figures out how to, you know, you give them a trick lock where would things have to go this way or this way and then the little thing opens.
    1:25:39 When they come back and tell you that, you see the gravity defying behavior, the arching of the eyebrows, the bright eyes and say, and I solved it.
    1:25:40 I solved it.
    1:25:41 I got in there.
    1:25:41 Yeah.
    1:25:47 The problem, the person that’s just telling you this story doesn’t know the emotion that goes with it.
    1:25:59 The other thing that, you know, I, I, I look for is, and they may be nervous or whatever, is how good are, are they at observing?
    1:26:09 This is the one question that, um, has, uh, actually saved a lot of companies.
    1:26:14 When I say, make sure that from now on you ask, how good are you observing?
    1:26:15 And they’ll say, well, observing what?
    1:26:17 Everything that matters.
    1:26:21 People, events, opportunities.
    1:26:23 Right.
    1:26:25 If you come to me and say, well, I can code this.
    1:26:26 Okay.
    1:26:27 That’s great.
    1:26:32 But in the position that you’re going to be in, you’re going to be managing people.
    1:26:34 How good are you at observing people?
    1:26:42 The great thing about companies that, that seek this is, all right.
    1:26:45 So when you go and you business your, you go see your subsidiary.
    1:26:48 What do you, what are you looking for?
    1:26:49 What are you observing?
    1:26:55 Well, when I look at the books, how about the attitude of the people?
    1:26:56 Are people content?
    1:26:57 Are they happy?
    1:26:59 Or do they all look like they’re constipated?
    1:27:03 I mean, I’ve been into companies that the minute I walk in, I go, oh, geez, you’ve got
    1:27:04 management problems here.
    1:27:08 And the guy goes, who, did somebody tell you?
    1:27:14 I said, well, you know, I’d have to be clinically stupid not to recognize that all these people
    1:27:18 are walking around with their heads hung low, that they make no eye contact.
    1:27:22 Nobody, they pass each other in the subway and they don’t talk to each other.
    1:27:23 You got management issues here.
    1:27:30 And, you know, and it’s like they hired for this skill.
    1:27:39 But is that really what you need when you actually need somebody that is a great observer?
    1:27:41 What about confidence?
    1:27:42 Is this something that you’re born with?
    1:27:45 Or do you think confidence can be trained into somebody?
    1:27:49 I think confidence can absolutely be trained.
    1:27:55 Coming from Cuba, where we lost everything, arriving as a refugee, having nothing.
    1:28:01 And then all of a sudden, the FBI asked me to become, I mean, I didn’t apply to the FBI.
    1:28:05 The FBI actually came to me and asked me to apply.
    1:28:08 And then all of a sudden I said, are you guys serious?
    1:28:12 It’s like, you know, I’m 23 years old.
    1:28:19 You know, I’m barely learning how to shave and with no confidence whatsoever.
    1:28:22 And they teach you to be confident.
    1:28:25 You can teach confidence.
    1:28:35 And what I tell people is the easiest way to learn confidence is to be confident about one thing.
    1:28:43 I don’t care if it’s you stack papers better than anybody else.
    1:28:52 I don’t care if it’s the way you make your bed, any small thing.
    1:28:56 Show me that you’re confident.
    1:28:59 Show me that that’s better than anybody else’s.
    1:29:08 And the minute you can be confident about one thing, now you can be confident about two things.
    1:29:11 And then you can be confident about three things.
    1:29:15 This nonsense that I often see people say, well, just come in and be confident.
    1:29:17 I think that’s nonsense.
    1:29:25 I think you have to learn and your physiology has to learn to be confident about one thing.
    1:29:31 You know, with me, I was confident in playing football, okay?
    1:29:32 I was fast.
    1:29:33 I could do certain things.
    1:29:35 I was confident about that.
    1:29:41 I knew that in basketball, I could shoot a three-pointer, okay?
    1:29:47 Confident about that, but not confident about a host of other things.
    1:29:53 To be in a room full of executives, I remember when I had no confidence.
    1:29:56 So how do I work on that?
    1:30:03 You cannot, unless you’re a world-class actor, you cannot walk into a place and all of a sudden
    1:30:06 pretend you’re confident.
    1:30:10 I tell people, learn to be confident about one thing.
    1:30:11 And sometimes it’s knowledge.
    1:30:21 I always, there is no meeting I go into that I am not well-read on that subject.
    1:30:27 If you want to achieve confidence, know everything that you can about a particular subject.
    1:30:30 And that gives you so much great confidence.
    1:30:34 And I’ve seen young people come right out of college and they’re sitting there, you know,
    1:30:42 their elbows are in, they’re almost mousy looking, they’re nervous, they’re looking about constantly,
    1:30:43 they don’t know where to look.
    1:30:50 And, you know, and I, and I tell them, know your subject, know your subject.
    1:30:57 Because the minute they begin to talk about that, they begin to flower and, and, and change.
    1:31:04 So competence in a particular area or vertical creates confidence, which then kind of permeates.
    1:31:06 Yes.
    1:31:10 And, and that’s what the military, in the, you know, the military, the, you know, the, like
    1:31:15 the British military, that’s what they, they take young people, 17, 18, 19 years old.
    1:31:19 And they say, you know, we’re going to change you into a warrior.
    1:31:20 Well, how’s that?
    1:31:29 By running, by, by getting you to climb up that rope, by doing any number of things where
    1:31:32 you can come, can come away and feel that confidence.
    1:31:38 You talked in a video that I watched for Wired about a variety of different ways we can exhibit
    1:31:40 and be more confident and show confidence.
    1:31:45 One of them is really looking at the leaders in your life who are confident and trying to
    1:31:47 sort of replicate some of those confident behaviors.
    1:31:48 Right.
    1:31:51 The other one was about your voice.
    1:31:56 Use a deeper voice and do not rise at the end of the sentence as if it’s a question.
    1:31:56 Right.
    1:31:58 So let me talk about those.
    1:32:03 Don’t try to reinvent what’s successful.
    1:32:08 A confident person doesn’t have to talk fast and doesn’t talk high.
    1:32:10 Right.
    1:32:13 I remember the first arrest I made and I said, stop, this is the FBI.
    1:32:16 My voice was, nobody was going to stop.
    1:32:18 Nobody, nobody.
    1:32:22 And the guys that were with me said, Joe, you got to work on your voice.
    1:32:24 You have to have a command voice.
    1:32:25 Well, a command voice is down.
    1:32:26 Like?
    1:32:29 Like, stop right there.
    1:32:31 I’ll give you an example.
    1:32:36 You talk to most executives and you say, no, that’s not acceptable.
    1:32:37 It’s too high.
    1:32:40 No is always said down.
    1:32:41 No.
    1:32:43 Are we going to?
    1:32:44 No.
    1:32:48 That sounds like a complete sentence.
    1:32:51 Do you get them to practice saying no?
    1:32:52 Absolutely.
    1:32:54 I did it, you know, for 10 years.
    1:33:02 Every, every February, the guy that Brian Hall, who encouraged me to write my, one of my books
    1:33:06 called Louder Than Words, invited me to go to Harvard.
    1:33:09 And I’ll never forget, I had a complete Harvard class.
    1:33:11 I think there was 76 students.
    1:33:17 And I had them all saying the word, no, no, no.
    1:33:18 Going down and lower.
    1:33:22 He had stepped out of the room to take a call.
    1:33:26 When he came back, he thought I had a cult going on.
    1:33:27 I said, no, Brian.
    1:33:32 I’m just, I’m teaching them the right way because these are going to be future executives
    1:33:37 that you don’t say, no, no, no, no, no, no.
    1:33:40 Now, that sounds like a complete sentence.
    1:33:41 No.
    1:33:41 No.
    1:33:43 That’s not how it’s going to work.
    1:33:45 And it’s always lower.
    1:33:47 So we work on the words.
    1:33:55 More importantly, we work on the, on the gestures, how much territory you occupy, because the territory
    1:33:57 that you occupy, if you’re here.
    1:33:59 Sort of like shriveled and tight.
    1:34:00 You’re shriveled.
    1:34:03 You want to, you don’t want to be excessive.
    1:34:08 You don’t want to look like a clown, but you, you, you want to have the space that you’re
    1:34:09 entitled to.
    1:34:14 And then I think it’s very important to learn to speak in cadence.
    1:34:19 When you speak in cadence, and I do it, is people listen.
    1:34:27 They have time to process what you’re saying, but they can also attach the emotion that goes
    1:34:27 with it.
    1:34:29 Who spoke in cadence?
    1:34:31 Churchill.
    1:34:33 Martin Luther King.
    1:34:44 I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its
    1:34:45 creed.
    1:34:52 We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.
    1:34:53 Powerful.
    1:34:58 Can you imagine if he stood up there and said, I have one dream that one day might, it’s like
    1:34:59 who would listen to that?
    1:35:03 But he was a preacher, and he knew how to command an audience.
    1:35:08 And when Churchill said, we will fight them in the air, we will fight them on the beaches,
    1:35:16 we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall
    1:35:19 fight in the hills, we shall never surrender.
    1:35:27 The cadence is not just seductive, it is powerful.
    1:35:30 And a lot of executives don’t know how to use it.
    1:35:38 They just, I’ve been to presentations where people just let go.
    1:35:40 They’re not even listening to what’s being said.
    1:35:47 And yet, somebody begins to talk to them in cadence and says, this is our offer.
    1:35:49 It is not final.
    1:35:53 But for the moment, it is our best offer.
    1:35:56 Now, you’re paying attention.
    1:36:00 You’re paying attention, not just to what I said, but the emotion behind it.
    1:36:06 That’s a lot better to say, well, this is not our last offer, but, you know.
    1:36:12 There’s a real authority when you slow things down just that little bit and provide the gaps.
    1:36:17 Which goes back to what I said, who controls time, controls.
    1:36:26 You’re establishing control over the theater of the negotiations.
    1:36:28 They don’t teach that.
    1:36:30 Your hand gestures as well.
    1:36:34 You’ve got very complementary hand gestures to what you’re saying.
    1:36:38 Even as you’re speaking to me, you just went, who controls time?
    1:36:40 Controls.
    1:36:42 And so it’s, I’m wondering how our hand gestures.
    1:36:48 And my fingers are spread out, establishing how much we care about something.
    1:36:51 When we fear, our fingers come together.
    1:36:53 And when we fear a lot, our thumbs tuck in.
    1:36:58 I’ve seen people in negotiations give up a lot of information because all of a sudden,
    1:37:00 they tuck their thumbs in.
    1:37:01 I say, okay, they’re scared.
    1:37:04 Because dogs tuck their ears in.
    1:37:13 Humans tuck their, the hands, no matter how dark you are, your hands, the palm of the hands
    1:37:14 are very visible.
    1:37:20 That evolved with us because they’re expressive.
    1:37:27 So even in low light, we can use our hands to communicate.
    1:37:31 The more confident we are, the further our fingers are.
    1:37:33 I care.
    1:37:38 Imagine if I said, I care about you versus I care about you.
    1:37:40 It’s a big difference.
    1:37:42 So in the first example, you kind of had your fingers together.
    1:37:43 In the second, you spread them out.
    1:37:47 This, I care about this.
    1:37:50 And so they potentiate the message.
    1:37:56 And the human brain evolved also to look for the hands.
    1:38:00 Because the hands, number one, can be used as a weapon.
    1:38:08 But number two, they are also emblematic of the emotions that we feel.
    1:38:10 And eye contact.
    1:38:11 Yes.
    1:38:13 A lot’s been said about eye contact and the importance of it.
    1:38:15 What should I understand about eye contact confidence?
    1:38:24 Eye contact in some ways is, I mean, we could spend about 40 minutes on it because, and as
    1:38:28 a teacher, I can tell you because you want to have good eye contact.
    1:38:33 For instance, if you’re dealing with a woman, you don’t want it to go, you know, normal eye
    1:38:34 contact is here.
    1:38:37 You don’t want it going down to here to the breasts.
    1:38:38 Okay.
    1:38:39 So you want to stay looking at the face, right?
    1:38:46 So you want to keep it in the face, but you also don’t want to intimidate unless you want
    1:38:47 to intimidate.
    1:38:51 So you have to employ things like eye gaze behavior.
    1:38:55 You have to employ things such as looking away.
    1:39:00 Now, you and I both look away as we’re thinking about examples and different things.
    1:39:05 You can use eye contact for emphasizing.
    1:39:12 Look how often we use eye contact or our eyes to communicate opinions.
    1:39:15 Maybe with your partner, you said, what do you think?
    1:39:22 And immediately they’ll look, he or she may look at your partner, not yours specifically,
    1:39:25 but somebody you live with, and they go, no.
    1:39:30 So with our eyes, we often give our opinions.
    1:39:35 So in negotiations, it’s an important area.
    1:39:40 One of the things I think a lot about is about rapport building very, very quickly.
    1:39:46 You know, someone that does this podcast a lot, I, sometimes I overthink it a little bit,
    1:39:48 especially when I’m meeting people like you, because I’m like, oh my God, this guy’s going
    1:39:50 to be reading everything about me and da-da-da-da-da-da.
    1:39:50 Yes.
    1:39:55 So sometimes I’m like, I think I overthink it when I meet someone like you, a body language
    1:39:57 expert, someone who’s good at behavioral science.
    1:39:58 And I want to talk about rapport building.
    1:40:01 We actually videoed our interaction today.
    1:40:06 So when, when I walked in and I’ve got the video here, let me have a look at this, see
    1:40:09 if there’s a, we’ll put it on the screen for anyone that’s watching, but I just want you
    1:40:14 to analyze my interaction with you when I met you and tell me how it could have been better.
    1:40:15 All right.
    1:40:15 Hello, Joe.
    1:40:16 Nice to meet you.
    1:40:20 So first of all, you were waiting for me with arms akimbo, which is I’m in charge.
    1:40:21 I’m the big guy.
    1:40:23 And so your arms were here.
    1:40:25 Yeah, I got it.
    1:40:25 Okay.
    1:40:26 But, you know.
    1:40:28 I actually do remember that.
    1:40:29 I remember thinking, get your hands off your fucking hips.
    1:40:30 No, no, no.
    1:40:32 But, but, but it’s fine.
    1:40:33 This is your domain.
    1:40:36 I expect this from you in your domain.
    1:40:43 But one of the things you immediately did was you immediately went around the table and
    1:40:46 you went forward to shake my hand.
    1:40:47 Right?
    1:40:54 So one of the things that I say is how much people matter to us is determined by how fast
    1:40:55 we act.
    1:40:56 Okay.
    1:41:03 So the fact that you actually went from there to here and you did it immediately, it demonstrates
    1:41:04 that you care.
    1:41:14 As early as 11 months, a baby will recognize individuals or even inanimate objects that care
    1:41:17 just based on how quickly they move.
    1:41:18 Towards them?
    1:41:19 Towards them.
    1:41:20 Okay.
    1:41:21 To do something for them.
    1:41:22 Okay.
    1:41:24 It’s called a pro-social act.
    1:41:27 And babies as young as 11 months recognize that.
    1:41:32 So this is something that I, it doesn’t surprise me because you’ve been successful.
    1:41:39 You know, success is, for me, is measured on how well people get along with others.
    1:41:42 Thank you for the work.
    1:41:42 Appreciate you.
    1:41:42 Thank you.
    1:41:43 No, no problem.
    1:41:44 You’re very, very smart.
    1:41:46 You look like someone who, uh, who worked in the FBI.
    1:41:49 I, uh, it’s the FBI uniform.
    1:41:51 This is the…
    1:41:53 Well, uh, will I be mic’d or it’s just this?
    1:41:54 Just that one.
    1:41:55 Just that one.
    1:41:55 Perfect.
    1:41:57 Okay.
    1:42:03 You said something charming about how I was dressed, which I, uh, appreciated.
    1:42:07 Uh, this is always a good reminder to me of how old I look now.
    1:42:17 And, uh, and, uh, the only note that I would, I would add is I would have remained standing a
    1:42:26 little longer and then made sure that, you know, as I’m sitting, then you sit at the same time.
    1:42:27 Okay.
    1:42:29 So invite you to sit and sit with you.
    1:42:36 At the same, at the same time, rather than allow me to all now, if you can see in that instance,
    1:42:41 I’m actually still over you while you’re already, uh, seated.
    1:42:43 That is in negotiations.
    1:42:47 That would be, as we say, contraindicated.
    1:42:48 What does that mean?
    1:42:49 It is.
    1:42:50 It’s a no, no.
    1:42:51 It’s a big word.
    1:42:53 It’s a big word for Steve.
    1:42:54 Don’t do that.
    1:42:58 What about taking notes?
    1:43:01 This is something that I’ve started doing actually in the last six months when I’m in meetings
    1:43:06 in my companies in the UK, um, is I have an iPad now.
    1:43:10 And when someone’s speaking, it actually helps me because of the way that I think and process
    1:43:11 and learn.
    1:43:14 And it helps me also to not be listening to speak.
    1:43:18 I, if they say something and I immediately have an idea that I’m worried I’m going to lose
    1:43:24 instead of, you know, that kind of behavior, I can write down what I’m about to say.
    1:43:25 And it gives me more time to listen.
    1:43:30 But one of the things I noticed in your work is you say that in terms of showing someone you
    1:43:33 care, taking notes is a really effective way to do that.
    1:43:37 Well, what I, what I would say to you is what I would tell the therapist.
    1:43:44 One of the biggest mistakes therapists have started making is they sit there and because
    1:43:49 a lot of them are earning a lot less money and they don’t have a secretarial pool like
    1:43:58 they used to, they now type their observations as they’re talking to their client.
    1:43:59 I think that’s a big mistake.
    1:44:07 And from my, the studies that my company did in surveying, not the therapist, but their
    1:44:11 clients, the ones that were willing to talk, it’s terrible.
    1:44:18 What I tried to emphasize is have material in front of you.
    1:44:25 And if there’s a particular note, write a little something, or if you have somebody with you
    1:44:31 that’s going to be the note taker, I don’t want to miss anything.
    1:44:33 If you’re writing, you’re not observing.
    1:44:37 And observing is actually more important than writing.
    1:44:43 Now, if you started talking and mentioned, if you had mentioned the super sternal notch,
    1:44:48 I might have, okay, is that super or supra sternal notch?
    1:44:49 Okay, that’s a worthy note.
    1:44:51 And then I come back and revisit.
    1:44:59 But if I’m writing all the time, I, you know, I have young people tell me, well, you’re just
    1:45:00 an old timer.
    1:45:01 This is how we’ve grown up.
    1:45:09 I can tell you that from an evolutionary standpoint, we cannot outdo our DNA.
    1:45:15 We just cannot simply, for instance, schools come in and say, you know, well, you can’t
    1:45:17 hug the students anymore.
    1:45:18 Okay.
    1:45:25 Don’t expect, you know, why, you know, why do we have depressed students?
    1:45:29 Why do we, there’s any number of things, but I can tell you this.
    1:45:36 We evolved to hug, to touch, to greet each other, you know, your best mate, all that stuff.
    1:45:43 When we used to wrestle with our buddies, right, that, that play, that play wrestling, all that
    1:45:46 is, is, is covert touching.
    1:45:50 It’s because our species needs it.
    1:45:52 Humans need to touch.
    1:45:55 There are certain things that humans need.
    1:45:58 And one of them is this facial interactions.
    1:46:03 When you’re focused on writing, you’re actually taking away from that.
    1:46:06 How do you think about handshakes then?
    1:46:09 Because handshakes are how we kind of touch strangers in a socially acceptable way.
    1:46:11 Is there a good way to handshake?
    1:46:12 There is.
    1:46:14 And there’s bad ones.
    1:46:19 So I always say when you shake hands, the fingers are down, right?
    1:46:22 A lot of people put their finger up.
    1:46:25 And so when they shake hands, let’s see if we can reach each other.
    1:46:30 And so when they go like this, now you have their finger in this erogenous.
    1:46:32 This is an erogenous area of your body.
    1:46:33 This is what you kiss.
    1:46:34 The veins.
    1:46:35 Yeah.
    1:46:39 Well, the, the, the inside of the wrist is an erogenous area.
    1:46:43 And so now you have this man’s finger here and it’s, and it’s just weird.
    1:46:47 So the fingers are low and the pressure is applied equally.
    1:46:50 So you don’t try to.
    1:46:51 Donald Trump hit the squeeze.
    1:46:51 Yeah.
    1:46:57 Don’t, don’t, don’t do a Donald Trump handshake or don’t, don’t jerk the hand.
    1:46:58 Don’t squeeze it too tight.
    1:47:01 Don’t play jujitsu.
    1:47:04 People my age have arthritis.
    1:47:06 I’m never impressed.
    1:47:11 I’ve had, you know, men come in and they’re big and burly and they squeeze my hand and it’s
    1:47:12 like, are you serious?
    1:47:14 What about the cupping where they, right.
    1:47:21 So cupping of the hand is okay with really people, you know, but most people don’t like
    1:47:23 to have their hands engulfed.
    1:47:25 If you want to touch somebody else’s hand.
    1:47:31 So you shake the hand and then you touch the upper arm and the, all of that.
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    1:48:44 I’ve got another video for you here.
    1:48:50 So he starts out with an arm down, but he’s touching his neck, covering his neck.
    1:48:56 He’s crimping the left side of his face and he’s massaging his forehead and his neck.
    1:49:02 So, I mean, we look at it and we say, okay, these are all emblematic of psychological discomfort.
    1:49:08 Now, why that is, we see his blink or eyelid flutter.
    1:49:10 He’s touching his face.
    1:49:12 Why is that?
    1:49:13 I don’t know.
    1:49:16 It’s not, now there’s a cathartic exhale.
    1:49:18 Looks like he’s reading one of my books.
    1:49:23 What I would tell you is, is these are all the behaviors you wouldn’t want from a leader.
    1:49:27 You would certainly, you see that from a follower, but not a leader.
    1:49:30 You’ll never see a general do any of that.
    1:49:35 Certainly not in the U.S. Army or the British Army.
    1:49:43 All the behaviors that he’s doing, which are pacifying or indicators of some sort of psychological
    1:49:48 discomfort are also all the behaviors that we equate with lack of confidence.
    1:49:53 Leaders are often exceptional.
    1:49:56 And you say that exceptional individuals are made, not born.
    1:50:02 And that’s a good thing because that puts this level of excellence within reach of you and me.
    1:50:06 And you’ve identified several traits that make someone an exceptional person.
    1:50:06 Yeah.
    1:50:08 One of those is self-mastery.
    1:50:17 Self-mastery, whether it was Alexander the Great who sought the learnings of, let’s see,
    1:50:22 Socrates taught Plato, who taught Aristotle, who, Alexander.
    1:50:28 So Aristotle taught Alexander the Great, and he pursued the knowledge.
    1:50:32 Thomas Edison, one of the greatest inventors in America, 1,300 patents,
    1:50:37 left school at age six, sought the knowledge.
    1:50:43 I mean, as humble as I came from, we were so poor, I literally had to go to garbage cans to
    1:50:46 steal books and magazines to learn.
    1:50:55 You can create your own apprenticeship program, and you can learn to master a skill or a knowledge
    1:50:58 or an athletic move, whatever.
    1:51:02 Someone who is self-mastered, what have they accomplished?
    1:51:06 They have accomplished something that nobody can take from them.
    1:51:10 Nobody can take that from me.
    1:51:11 What is it?
    1:51:18 All that knowledge, all that skill, all that experience, nobody can take from me.
    1:51:19 Why is the word self in there?
    1:51:22 Self-mastery.
    1:51:29 Because so much of it, nobody, you know, we were talking earlier, and I said, I try to
    1:51:35 read two books a week, so that way I can have read about 1,000 books every decade.
    1:51:37 Nobody’s telling me to do that.
    1:51:39 And so it’s self.
    1:51:40 Why?
    1:51:42 Because I wanted to know.
    1:51:49 Because, you know, why did Leonardo da Vinci want to know the eddies, water eddies in the
    1:51:52 water, or the length of a woodpecker’s tongue?
    1:51:54 Who cares?
    1:51:55 It doesn’t matter.
    1:51:58 It was self-imposed.
    1:52:07 And we, in this world, are the beneficiaries of Leonardo da Vinci’s interest in water eddies,
    1:52:14 which then helped him to draw hair of the Mona Lisa, were the beneficiaries of that.
    1:52:23 I think self-mastery is more important than, I think, what a university can teach you.
    1:52:29 A university can teach you how to think, but it doesn’t teach you mastery.
    1:52:35 So is this, because I’m hearing, like, obviously learning and the pursuit of knowledge, and then
    1:52:41 there’s this other part of self-mastery, which feels like self-awareness, being aware of oneself.
    1:52:46 Well, I think you’re an example of self-mastery.
    1:52:57 It’s the only word around in the universe of languages that encapsulates being able to take
    1:53:02 what is available and making it a part of your life.
    1:53:09 And so whether it was my grandmother teaching me how to talk to people, or my mother, or my father,
    1:53:15 my mother showing me how to actually shake hands, my sister showing me how to dance.
    1:53:19 This is all part of self-mastery.
    1:53:21 Now, I could have rejected all of that.
    1:53:22 And a lot of people do.
    1:53:27 A lot of people reject science or reject, oh, I don’t want to learn how to dance.
    1:53:28 I don’t want to learn to do that.
    1:53:29 Okay.
    1:53:31 That’s your option.
    1:53:40 But there’s an exquisite elegance in being able to look at the world around you and learn
    1:53:44 from it, which you have done, and say, I’m going to put that to work.
    1:53:48 Why should I reinvent what other people have experienced?
    1:53:54 I’m going to adopt that which I like and prefer, and then I’m going to put it to good use.
    1:53:57 The second one is observation, which I think we’ve talked about.
    1:53:59 Observation.
    1:54:10 You know, the great example is a parent who can observe the immediate needs of children and so forth.
    1:54:17 And I see people now that they’re so, I was at the airport yesterday coming here, and there
    1:54:24 was a family that the whole time they were waiting, not once talked to each other, nor were they
    1:54:25 aware of what the others were doing.
    1:54:33 I find that difficult because when my daughter was growing up, I never took my eyes off of her.
    1:54:41 I see people on their devices, as this whole family was, and they’re missing out on a lot
    1:54:43 of things, a lot of information.
    1:54:47 The great inventions are made through observation.
    1:54:48 The Velcro.
    1:54:50 Do you know the story of Velcro?
    1:54:57 In the middle of World War II, a Swiss guy goes up in the mountains and comes back hiking,
    1:54:58 right?
    1:55:03 And he looks at his socks and he says, man, these chiggers, these little…
    1:55:04 Is it a plant?
    1:55:09 Yeah, it’s just the little seedlings that they give off that stick to things.
    1:55:11 Here in America, we call them stickers.
    1:55:14 There’s all sorts of names.
    1:55:19 And he looks at it under a microscope and he notices that they don’t just stick out, they’re
    1:55:20 actually curbed.
    1:55:23 And in curving, they get stuck on everything.
    1:55:28 So he says, I’ll just invent this.
    1:55:35 Now, what’s interesting, we talk about observation, is he had seen this one time.
    1:55:37 How many millions of people had seen it?
    1:55:43 But it’s the observer that can capitalize on it.
    1:55:48 And that’s why I tell executives, when you hire, hire good observers, because they’re going
    1:55:49 to save you.
    1:55:54 They’re the ones that are going to say, hey, I’m seeing some trends here that are bad.
    1:55:56 So observation is key.
    1:56:03 And then we transition right into the next one is, most people think communication is just
    1:56:12 about words, and communication is principally, most effectively, and most influential, a nonverbal
    1:56:15 across every culture.
    1:56:27 And the misconception that words triumph over nonverbals, go to a funeral.
    1:56:34 Go to a funeral and see how well words work versus putting your arm around somebody and
    1:56:36 let them sob on your shoulder.
    1:56:39 It’s the primary means by which we communicate.
    1:56:42 It’s the primary means by which we show we care.
    1:56:46 And it’s the primary means by which we show empathy.
    1:56:48 The fourth one is action.
    1:56:53 And for me, it really links to both the second point, which is observation, but also to your
    1:56:57 story about Velcro, because there must have been many people that thought, oh my God, that
    1:56:58 thing’s sticking to me.
    1:56:59 And they did nothing.
    1:57:02 Maybe even some people who thought, oh, that could be useful.
    1:57:07 But then the hard part often is doing something about it.
    1:57:07 It’s the action.
    1:57:12 It’s doing something, as I talk in the book, be exceptional.
    1:57:18 Do something that is pro-social or beneficial, but don’t wait, right?
    1:57:25 The worst thing we can do, if you want to let people know that you don’t care, take your
    1:57:25 time.
    1:57:27 And this happens all the time.
    1:57:34 You go to a counter, you walk up to a counter and say, hey, you know, I’d love some help with
    1:57:38 this, you know, and then they just, well, I don’t know.
    1:57:41 Let me check in the back.
    1:57:44 And they take their time walking to the back.
    1:57:47 And then they take time walking back.
    1:57:50 You might as well be shouting, I don’t care.
    1:57:54 What I tell managers is, that’s your responsibility.
    1:58:00 Why did you hire someone who can’t move at the speed of light?
    1:58:04 Because movement is equated with caring.
    1:58:09 So if that’s their attitude, you might as well have a sign that says, I don’t care.
    1:58:13 Now, you could say, well, you know, maybe they have a mobility problem.
    1:58:15 Fine, fronted.
    1:58:17 I’d say, you know what?
    1:58:22 It’s going to take me a minute because I just had my hip replaced, but I’m going to address
    1:58:23 it right now.
    1:58:27 We can forgive.
    1:58:34 But when we don’t show we care by action, that is so immediate.
    1:58:37 And the fifth one is psychological comfort.
    1:58:41 And you write in the book that this is the most powerful strength humans possess.
    1:58:42 Absolutely.
    1:58:50 What’s interesting about humans in the years that I’ve studied them is that humans don’t
    1:58:50 seek perfection.
    1:59:00 The baby doesn’t care if it’s sucking its own thumb or the twin sister’s thumb.
    1:59:02 They interchangeable.
    1:59:04 Humans don’t seek perfection.
    1:59:08 What we seek is psychological comfort.
    1:59:11 And whoever provides that is the soonest winner.
    1:59:13 It is as simple as that.
    1:59:17 If you can, you’re too young.
    1:59:25 But I remember when computers came out and they were in ugly boxes and they were in ugly stores
    1:59:30 and they were behind the counter and they were ugly.
    1:59:38 Steve Jobs comes around and says, no, we’re going to put them on these lab tables like we have
    1:59:41 and we’re going to make them accessible.
    1:59:51 So this mysterious device that is such a ugly word that you forget that people hated computers so much.
    1:59:53 They used to come in at night and cut the cords.
    1:59:57 That’s how scared people were of computing.
    2:00:07 And he went from 4% shares of the computer market to whatever it is now, 67 or whatever the number is.
    2:00:08 Why?
    2:00:10 Psychological comfort.
    2:00:13 And I tell this to businessmen.
    2:00:20 When you’re negotiating, what you’re negotiating for is can you create enough psychological comfort
    2:00:30 that the other person can live with that so that I can feel, okay, maybe I didn’t get everything I wanted,
    2:00:35 but for this period in time, I can live with that psychological comfort.
    2:00:41 I can go back to the board and report that this was the best that I can do and so forth.
    2:00:44 Aim for psychological comfort.
    2:00:49 And how does one go about creating psychological comfort in any context?
    2:00:52 You started it today.
    2:00:56 You welcomed me in and then you said, what would you like to drink?
    2:00:57 Would you like some water?
    2:00:58 Would you like some tea?
    2:00:59 Would you like some coffee?
    2:01:04 That begins the process of psychological comfort.
    2:01:06 We’re in a quiet environment.
    2:01:10 Less noise, more psychological comfort.
    2:01:11 Less lighting.
    2:01:13 It doesn’t hurt the eyes.
    2:01:23 Anything that starts at a biological, physical, physiological, and then cognitive level.
    2:01:25 So, psychological comfort.
    2:01:27 We’re negotiating.
    2:01:29 So, you want to offer $3,000.
    2:01:32 I think I’m worth $6,000.
    2:01:35 So, how do we achieve that?
    2:01:42 Well, I’m going to let you tell me your side of why you can only provide $3,000.
    2:01:44 And I’m going to provide you my side.
    2:01:45 Okay.
    2:01:54 The fact that we actually get to tell our story begins the process of psychological comfort.
    2:02:01 Now, in the end, I may have to abide by that because there’s only so much money.
    2:02:05 And if it’s not in the budget, it’s not in the budget.
    2:02:12 But there may be some things that you can add to say, look, this is all we have at this time.
    2:02:16 But we’re going to reevaluate this in three months.
    2:02:23 And if we can then, depending on earnings, get you another $500 a month, we will do it then.
    2:02:30 We do it incrementally, but always thinking about what provides psychological comfort.
    2:02:42 Being harsh, being indignant, not being attentive to needs, wants, desires, and even preferences
    2:02:44 creates psychological discomfort.
    2:02:50 In 2009, you wrote a book called Narcissists Among Us.
    2:02:51 Yes.
    2:02:57 And earlier on, you said that roughly 2% of people are narcissists, but then 25% of CEOs?
    2:02:58 22%.
    2:03:02 As high as 22% of CEOs have narcissistic traits, yes.
    2:03:03 Okay.
    2:03:12 And if someone’s dealing with a narcissist, what do they have to do in order to manage that situation?
    2:03:17 Because according to those numbers, roughly like 98% of people aren’t narcissists, but probably
    2:03:19 will deal with them in their lifetime.
    2:03:21 And then, you know, a significant amount of people work with them.
    2:03:31 Even though they account for 2% of the population, we will work with or for somebody like that.
    2:03:35 So what we have to keep in mind, well, what do we mean by narcissist?
    2:03:40 We’re not talking about the person that looks in the mirror and likes to splash on cologne
    2:03:41 and comb their hair.
    2:03:48 This is a person that overvalues themselves, but has to devalue others.
    2:03:57 This is a person who only thinks about themselves and doesn’t care of what suffering or what’s going on
    2:04:06 through your life, wants you to be loyal, but is not loyal to you, is disinterested in your personal affairs,
    2:04:09 but wants you to be interested in theirs.
    2:04:12 There is your malignant narcissist.
    2:04:20 Oh, and by the way, they inherently tell lies, but expect you to tell the truth to them.
    2:04:29 Now, the effect is, well, if they’re only 2% of the population, but we see them in a lot of corporations,
    2:04:33 we’re going to work for them, then, you know, how do we get along?
    2:04:37 Well, first is recognizing that they’re going to devalue us.
    2:04:43 Now, sometimes they devalue you by not inviting you to meetings or sharing information,
    2:04:49 but many times it’s by the way they treat you, yelling at you, being disparaging.
    2:04:51 I mean, I have some things that are horrific.
    2:04:55 So what do we do when we have people like that?
    2:04:58 Number one is recognize what you’re dealing with.
    2:05:06 And that’s why I wrote the dangerous personalities, because I have these robust checklists in there,
    2:05:08 which have been tested many times.
    2:05:16 So you can see, oh, wow, out of 125 things, this person has 75 of these traits.
    2:05:19 You’ve got a problem.
    2:05:20 But now here’s the thing.
    2:05:26 When we live with somebody like this, let’s say you, you know, they can be very charming,
    2:05:31 but then they turn on you and they become who they really are.
    2:05:35 Then how do you deal with that?
    2:05:42 What I can tell you is that the arc of the trajectory does not favor you,
    2:05:50 that these individuals are so caustic, they’re so toxic, that eventually they will victimize
    2:05:56 you physically, mentally, emotionally, physiologically, or financially.
    2:05:57 You’ll be victimized.
    2:06:03 The question then is, and I tell this to a lot of executives who work for these individuals
    2:06:08 who they’re bullied and this stuff is, how long are you willing to tolerate it?
    2:06:13 If you can set a number and say six months or a year, okay, but then do something,
    2:06:16 because you will pay a price.
    2:06:19 You know, there’s a great book called The Body Keeps the Score.
    2:06:22 The body will definitely keep the score.
    2:06:27 You will pay a price for being in the proximity of a toxic individual.
    2:06:34 And if you become that person’s chew toy, you will suffer immensely.
    2:06:39 And so I say, you know, there’s no pill to cure them.
    2:06:42 There is nothing you can do to make them like you.
    2:06:44 Expect no loyalty.
    2:06:46 Try to get out as soon as you can.
    2:06:50 And that’s the only advice that, you know, obviously I’m not a clinician.
    2:06:54 But I think most clinicians, if they’re honest, will say, you got to get out of there.
    2:06:57 It’s, this is not tolerable.
    2:07:01 Don’t try and win in any respect.
    2:07:02 Don’t try and…
    2:07:04 I don’t think you can win.
    2:07:07 First of all, these individuals are severely flawed of character.
    2:07:09 They have no introspection.
    2:07:11 They see themselves as perfect.
    2:07:16 They don’t see any imperfection in themselves.
    2:07:25 And so because they’re flawed of character, you cannot expect normal behaviors from them.
    2:07:28 And so why expose yourself to them?
    2:07:32 They will be like that all their lives.
    2:07:39 There’s a particular chapter where you say, one is bad, two is terrible, three is lethal.
    2:07:44 Oh, you know, people, I get this question all the time.
    2:07:46 Well, can you have multiple traits?
    2:07:46 Yes.
    2:07:52 You can have, you can be pathologically narcissistic.
    2:07:54 So you overvalue yourself.
    2:08:12 And you can also have traits of the paranoid personality where that you are very rigid in your thinking and you’re always suspicious of everybody’s intentions.
    2:08:14 In history, you look at Hitler.
    2:08:19 Hitler was pathologically, he was a malignant narcissist.
    2:08:21 He was clinically paranoid.
    2:08:22 Who did he fear?
    2:08:30 Minorities, the Roma, the was then called the gypsies, and of course, the Jewish people.
    2:08:33 That’s that is clinical paranoia.
    2:08:35 And he was a psychopath.
    2:08:38 OK, let’s just lay that out there.
    2:08:40 What is psychopathy?
    2:08:45 Psychopathy is where you have no remorse, no empathy, no conscience.
    2:08:49 You can do whatever you want and you sleep well at night there.
    2:08:55 That’s your Robert Hare, the researcher, is the best one that defines psychopathy.
    2:08:58 Hitler had it all.
    2:09:02 There’s a thin line probably there between like narcissism and self-belief.
    2:09:07 Because when you’re describing narcissism, you’re talking about like over-importance, like really believing one’s important.
    2:09:10 And it sounds somewhat like someone who is extremely self-believing.
    2:09:21 Well, by the way, narcissism, which has been studied since the 1950s, we now have a narcissistic society like we never did before.
    2:09:24 We see it in the way we talk about ourselves more than anything.
    2:09:30 We get on TikTok and other forums and we espouse all sorts of things.
    2:09:34 And so we’re way more narcissistic now than in the 1950s.
    2:09:36 They look at even the words we use.
    2:09:40 Now we use the word me and I more than we did in the 1950s.
    2:09:42 We used to say we and ours.
    2:09:44 Now we say me and I.
    2:09:54 And the true narcissist has a belief system that is so corrupt, they’re truly flawed of character.
    2:10:06 And they not only have the traits of narcissism, but they truly believe how they see themselves as infallible, as I only have the answers.
    2:10:10 I’m the person that can make us great again.
    2:10:12 And I know what you’re going to ask me next.
    2:10:13 No, I’m not going to ask you that.
    2:10:13 Thank you.
    2:10:15 Thank you.
    2:10:29 But if the traits fit, then, you know, what I tell people is, as you, whether you’re going into an organization or if you’re looking at who’s leading your country, ask yourself, do they have these traits?
    2:10:34 And if they have the traits, then it’s not a difficult equation.
    2:10:42 Psychology is, especially when it comes to people flawed of character, is not that difficult, is do I want to work for somebody that values me?
    2:10:46 Or someone that devalues others?
    2:10:46 Or someone that devalues others?
    2:10:47 And you start with that.
    2:10:57 In all these decades of you doing all these incredible things, hunting terrorists, spies, aerial surveillance, working in partnership with the SAS, interviewing people, chasing down terrorists.
    2:11:01 How has it changed you as a human being?
    2:11:07 How has it shifted your perception of human behavior and what it is to be a human and meaning and all of these bigger questions of life?
    2:11:10 I’ve never been asked that question.
    2:11:15 So thank you for asking a most profound question.
    2:11:24 I guess the best answer is that I learned a piecemeal, and I’m glad I learned piecemeal.
    2:11:31 And by that, I mean that my first homicide was just a regular homicide that I responded to.
    2:11:38 My first suicide, which was a police officer, was, you know, it was in increments.
    2:11:46 I think if I had been presented with everything that I had been presented with all at once, I think I would have had a mental breakdown.
    2:11:51 I’m glad that it was episodic, that I was able to learn from each.
    2:12:00 And what I have learned is, number one, that who were most of the people that I talked to?
    2:12:02 The majority were witnesses or victims.
    2:12:07 And these were nice people.
    2:12:08 They were kind people.
    2:12:12 Some of the nicest people were these poor farmers out in Arizona.
    2:12:13 They grow cotton.
    2:12:15 They don’t earn very much.
    2:12:17 They’re good people.
    2:12:22 You learn that everything you’re doing in law enforcement is really for them.
    2:12:32 You know, later on when I got into counterespionage, and now you’re dealing with nation states and the equities of different nations.
    2:12:35 And, yeah, each country has their own priorities.
    2:12:43 But you realize that when you’re dealing with extremists, and they have their own belief system.
    2:12:46 And there’s nothing really you can do to change them.
    2:12:49 But we also have our belief systems.
    2:12:55 And you have to realize, okay, I can’t fix all the problems.
    2:13:06 As a law enforcement agent, I can only attend to that which I can help or resolve or so forth.
    2:13:14 I couldn’t find all the suspects that either raped or killed or bombed.
    2:13:24 And I was at Brigham Young University when she was a girl was abducted by a serial killer.
    2:13:32 And to this day, I am in pain that I was on duty that night when she was abducted.
    2:13:35 I still feel it.
    2:13:39 And these things, they weigh on you.
    2:13:47 But I’m also very, you know, when I get with students, I mentor people.
    2:13:49 I mentor a lot of executives.
    2:13:51 But I also mentor young people who are curious.
    2:13:57 And I see the eagerness in which they pursue life and knowledge.
    2:14:00 And that gives me great hope.
    2:14:03 Why are you still in pain about being on duty that night?
    2:14:06 Because you can’t get it out of you.
    2:14:09 I can’t get the smell of…
    2:14:17 Sometimes you go to a crime scene and the smell is so bad that you can’t wash the smell away.
    2:14:19 You have to burn your clothes.
    2:14:22 Forensic examiners know this.
    2:14:30 There’s just some things that you can, you know, the first person I saw killed was in Cuba.
    2:14:39 And you just can’t, there’s, you know, biologically, you have the hippocampi.
    2:14:40 You have two of them.
    2:14:43 And that retains everything negative you ever experience.
    2:14:47 That’s why you can’t take a pill for post-traumatic stress.
    2:14:54 Because the hippocampi makes sure that the first time you burn yourself, touching that stove doesn’t occur again.
    2:15:00 So all things negative are retained, sometimes forever, but usually around a decade.
    2:15:10 But I’m also enlightened by the fact that people still pursue good things.
    2:15:19 You know, I hear from people who work with dogs or who work with the handicapped with no expectation of any reward.
    2:15:22 And I think most people have a good heart, a kind heart.
    2:15:35 And so I tried to focus on those people that I met, which gave me the examples for Be Exceptional.
    2:15:40 That woman in Brazil who, at the age of six, became blind.
    2:15:41 She went on to have 12 children.
    2:15:44 She had more, but only 12 survived.
    2:15:48 And who could still do needlework blind by feeling.
    2:15:52 I will never forget that experience either.
    2:15:59 To sit in her presence was a bestowed pleasure upon me.
    2:16:13 To understand a woman who could sense people moving in and around her just by how the hairs on her hand moved as they interacted with the space around her.
    2:16:16 It was a great experience.
    2:16:21 What day of your career are you most proud of or were you most happy?
    2:16:24 Oh, wow.
    2:16:34 Well, I was, I’ll tell you, I was, I was really happy when I graduated from the FBI Academy.
    2:16:46 Imagine at any time, at any time, at any one time, there’s 27,000 applicants to the FBI and they will only accept 220 maybe or so a year.
    2:16:49 So I was, I was elated.
    2:17:04 I was also very happy the day I left the FBI because at that point I had done it all and I wanted to do other things.
    2:17:09 I wanted to write, which is very difficult to do when you’re in the Bureau.
    2:17:12 And I wanted to continue teaching.
    2:17:13 Yeah.
    2:17:20 So I think those two events were, when it comes to a career, was good times in my life.
    2:17:29 Joe, my audience are very much people that want to learn, that love stories, that want to change their life, improve their lives so that they can achieve the objectives they have.
    2:17:31 So you’ve written a lot of books.
    2:17:32 I think it was 15 in total.
    2:17:37 Well, 14 published, the 15th comes out next year.
    2:17:46 So my last question then is, of everything in the 14, pending 15 books that you’ve written and everything you’ve learned,
    2:17:55 what is the most important thing that I didn’t ask you about that would be helpful to somebody who’s looking to improve their life,
    2:17:59 their communication skills, their body language, to be more effective in the pursuit of their goals?
    2:18:01 That I should have asked you about.
    2:18:15 Well, I hate to ruin this for you, but I think you asked, really, in however many minutes or hours we’ve been doing this, a lot of great questions.
    2:18:23 And I think in your questions, the essence is, what is the importance of connecting?
    2:18:28 You know, your audience is, are all in the people business.
    2:18:35 I mean, unless they’re working as a, they write code, but even they, we’re all in the people business.
    2:18:43 And what your questions really circled around is, what’s the importance of connecting?
    2:18:46 What’s the importance of connecting properly?
    2:18:49 And then how do we maintain those connections?
    2:19:00 And we’ve talked about this, the importance of nonverbals to communicate, I trust you, I value you, I care about you, and all that.
    2:19:12 But then creating that psychological comfort that allows us to then have this long time together, that relationships are invaluable.
    2:19:15 I think that’s the greatest lesson.
    2:19:18 Every time I go anywhere, I say, we are in the people business.
    2:19:29 And I think you are exemplary in demonstrating what you can achieve, if only you have that.
    2:19:31 That’s a great compliment.
    2:19:33 Thank you so much.
    2:19:38 We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they’re leaving it for.
    2:19:41 And the question that’s been left for you is…
    2:19:46 Hmm, interesting.
    2:19:52 What do people say that they like about you?
    2:19:55 I think that one is easy.
    2:20:02 And it’s easy because I hear it so often, and they say, you’re so approachable.
    2:20:08 I think they see pictures of me, you know, where I’m looking sternly, or they think an FBI agent.
    2:20:15 And wherever I go around the world, they say, well, you look so average, you look approachable.
    2:20:19 And I’ve always tried to make myself approachable.
    2:20:29 Whether you’re a student, whether you are the security guard, or whatever, I am always accessible.
    2:20:30 I’m always approachable.
    2:20:32 And I treat everybody the same.
    2:20:34 Joe, thank you.
    2:20:36 It’s a really interesting time that we’re living in.
    2:20:38 We talked about it a bit before we started rolling.
    2:20:41 We’re more digital than ever before.
    2:20:43 We’re living behind screens.
    2:20:46 And connection is somewhat of a lost art.
    2:20:55 And that’s why people are so, I think, in part, so keen to learn more about how to connect better, how to not be misunderstood, and how to communicate how they truly feel.
    2:20:59 Because it’s not something that now comes naturally to this digital from birth generation.
    2:21:02 And that’s something that I think your work does so profoundly.
    2:21:10 It kind of brings us back to what it is to be human, that through line of anthropology and understanding our evolution and where it all came from as well is the reinforcer of everything that you say.
    2:21:12 And it’s incredibly important.
    2:21:14 And it’s so incredibly resonant.
    2:21:19 I’ve seen it across the videos that you’ve been in and the interviews that you’ve done.
    2:21:20 They’re just so unbelievably resonant.
    2:21:23 And that’s because people are so thirsty for this information.
    2:21:32 And many of the problems I think we often find in our lives stem from being ineffective at communicating to someone else how we feel and what we truly think.
    2:21:35 Maybe because we haven’t learned, but also maybe we’re learning another behavior.
    2:21:41 And maybe we’re becoming more individualistic and more withdrawn and more trapped behind screens.
    2:21:42 So I really applaud you for the work that you’re doing.
    2:21:44 And I highly recommend people go and read these books.
    2:21:45 There’s a lot of them.
    2:21:51 But I’m going to link them all below and with a little synopsis so you can decide which one best suits you.
    2:21:53 I read a few of them.
    2:21:55 One of my favorites is the exceptional one.
    2:21:55 It’s so accessible.
    2:21:59 But they’re all very good at different things depending on what it is you’re looking for in your life.
    2:22:10 Whether it’s body language, whether you’re just the type of person that wants to hear more about hunting terrorists or understanding psychopaths or generally more things about the FBI.
    2:22:11 And the life that you’ve lived.
    2:22:12 So I’ll link them all below.
    2:22:15 Is there anything we’ve missed?
    2:22:29 Well, my wife would tell me, please be nice and say that if they can mention my, I now have a YouTube channel to address a lot of these things.
    2:22:37 Just go to joenavarro.net and there’s a link there to my YouTube channel, which you would think I would know.
    2:22:40 We’ll link it below if you can see.
    2:22:41 I don’t know.
    2:22:44 But I want to thank you for what you do.
    2:22:54 You’re going to realize one day, as I realize, that you’re helping to change lives even though that wasn’t your intention.
    2:22:56 Your intention was probably to educate.
    2:23:15 10 years on, 20 years on, or as I recently found from 40 years on, somebody will write to you and said, something you said or your example affected me and it changed my life.
    2:23:19 And you’ll go, wow, I never thought about that.
    2:23:21 And that’s what you’ve done.
    2:23:24 And you’ll realize it one day.
    2:23:26 Thank you.
    2:23:28 I mean, it’s what you’re doing too.
    2:23:29 Joe, thank you for being so generous with your time.
    2:23:30 I really, really appreciate it.
    2:23:32 It’s been an honor to meet you.
    2:23:36 And I’m excited to finish the rest of your books and to explore more on your YouTube channel, which I’ll link below.
    2:23:37 You also do lots of speaking.
    2:23:40 You work a lot with companies and organizations.
    2:23:44 And if people want to reach you, they should go to your website and send you an email there.
    2:23:45 Absolutely.
    2:23:49 Just through the website and we’ll attend to it.
    2:23:53 And I’m happy to share that knowledge journey with whoever’s interested.
    2:23:57 I’m going to let you into a little bit of a secret.
    2:23:59 You’re probably going to think me and my team are a little bit weird.
    2:24:05 But I can still remember to this day when Jemima from my team posted on Slack that she changed the scent in this studio.
    2:24:09 And right after she posted it, the entire office clapped in our Slack channel.
    2:24:14 And this might sound crazy, but at the Diary of a CEO, this is the type of 1% improvement we make on our show.
    2:24:16 And that is why the show is the way it is.
    2:24:23 By understanding the power of compounding 1%, you can absolutely change your outcomes in your life.
    2:24:26 It isn’t about drastic transformations or quick wins.
    2:24:31 It’s about the small, consistent actions that have a lasting change in your outcomes.
    2:24:35 So two years ago, we started the process of creating this beautiful diary.
    2:24:36 And it’s truly beautiful.
    2:24:40 Inside, there’s lots of pictures, lots of inspiration and motivation as well.
    2:24:42 Some interactive elements.
    2:24:51 And the purpose of this diary is to help you identify, stay focused on, develop consistency with the 1% that will ultimately change your life.
    2:24:57 So if you want one for yourself or for a friend or for a colleague or for your team, then head to thediary.com right now.
    2:24:58 I’ll link it below.
    2:25:22 See you next time.
    Tôi đã làm việc trong FBI suốt 25 năm.
    Tôi đã ngồi cùng với các gián điệp và kẻ thù của đất nước này,
    và tôi đã học được rất nhiều về hành vi con người.
    Hãy tưởng tượng bạn có thể đọc người khác và hoàn cảnh nhanh hơn.
    Điều đó mang lại cho bạn một lợi thế to lớn trong cuộc sống.
    Tôi muốn nghe mọi thứ.
    Vì vậy, một trong những điều đầu tiên tôi dạy là…
    Joe Navarro là một cựu đặc vụ FBI
    trở thành chuyên gia về ngôn ngữ cơ thể nổi tiếng thế giới.
    Ông giúp mọi người giải mã ngôn ngữ cơ thể
    để cải thiện giao tiếp, sự tin tưởng và ảnh hưởng.
    Một điều mà tôi đã nhận thấy trong các cuộc đàm phán
    là chúng ta, với tư cách là con người, giao tiếp rất nhiều bằng khuôn mặt.
    Ví dụ, chúng ta thường nhíu mày lại
    khi không hiểu điều gì đó.
    Và ngay khi chúng ta nghe thấy điều gì đó mà mình không thích,
    màu sắc thực sự bắt đầu rời khỏi môi,
    và sau đó chúng ta bắt đầu xiết chặt chúng lại.
    Một hành vi khác là khi thiếu tự tin,
    những lo lắng khiến mọi người ngay lập tức…
    Vì vậy, một khi chúng ta hiểu những hành vi này,
    bạn có thể kiểm soát bất kỳ tình huống nào.
    Tự tin. Đây có phải là điều mà bạn được sinh ra với không?
    Hay bạn nghĩ rằng tự tin có thể được rèn luyện?
    Điều này hoàn toàn có thể được rèn luyện.
    Vì vậy, FBI thực sự dạy về sự tự tin.
    Và có rất nhiều chiến lược.
    Một trong số đó là cử chỉ mạnh mẽ nhất mà chúng ta có thể sử dụng.
    Và bạn thấy Musk thường làm điều này.
    Nhưng những gì tôi nói với mọi người là
    cách dễ nhất để học sự tự tin là…
    Joe, chúng tôi thực sự đã quay video tương tác của tôi với bạn khi tôi gặp bạn.
    Và tôi có video ở đây.
    Vì vậy, một trong những điều bạn ngay lập tức làm là…
    Đừng làm thế.
    Đó là điều không nên.
    Một điều nhanh chóng trước khi chúng ta trở lại tập này.
    Chỉ cần cho tôi 30 giây thời gian của bạn.
    Hai điều tôi muốn nói.
    Điều đầu tiên là cảm ơn chân thành bạn đã lắng nghe và theo dõi chương trình tuần này qua tuần khác.
    Điều đó có ý nghĩa rất lớn với tất cả chúng tôi.
    Và đây thực sự là một giấc mơ mà chúng tôi hoàn toàn không bao giờ có
    và không thể tưởng tượng được mình đến được nơi này.
    Nhưng thứ hai, đó là một giấc mơ mà chúng tôi cảm thấy như chỉ mới bắt đầu.
    Và nếu bạn thích những gì chúng tôi làm ở đây,
    xin hãy tham gia cùng 24% người nghe podcast này thường xuyên
    và theo dõi chúng tôi trên ứng dụng này.
    Đây là một lời hứa tôi sẽ dành cho bạn.
    Tôi sẽ làm mọi thứ trong khả năng của mình để làm cho chương trình này tốt nhất có thể
    bây giờ và trong tương lai.
    Chúng tôi sẽ mang đến những vị khách mà bạn muốn tôi nói chuyện.
    Và chúng tôi sẽ tiếp tục làm tất cả những điều mà bạn yêu thích về chương trình này.
    Cảm ơn bạn.
    Cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều.
    Trở lại tập phim.
    Joe, nhìn ra xa, nếu ai đó hỏi bạn trên đường phố
    và họ muốn một câu trả lời chỉ trong hai câu,
    bạn là ai và bạn đã dành cuộc đời mình để làm gì?
    Bạn sẽ trả lời câu hỏi đó như thế nào?
    Chỉ với một từ, dạy học.
    Tôi nghĩ tôi đã dành cả đời mình để dạy học.
    Ngay cả khi tôi ở trong FBI, bắt đầu từ năm 1984,
    nhiều công việc của tôi rõ ràng là làm một đặc vụ FBI,
    điều tra tội phạm, đuổi theo gián điệp và các thứ khác.
    Nhưng, bạn biết đấy, tôi đã gia nhập vào năm 1978.
    Nhưng ngay từ năm 84, tôi đã bắt đầu dạy học.
    Và tôi thích khi mọi người hiểu điều đó và họ nhìn thấy hành vi.
    Họ hiểu được những điều cơ bản, nền tảng của việc tại sao chúng ta làm những điều nhất định.
    Tôi sẽ cho bạn một ví dụ.
    Đôi khi bạn sẽ đến một cảnh tượng khủng khiếp và mọi người ngay lập tức thở hổn hển.
    Họ hít thở một hơi và sau đó che miệng lại.
    Hoặc có một sự chênh lệch điểm số một điểm và mọi người như thế này và họ không hiểu.
    Đó là khi chúng ta bị bao quanh bởi sư tử và hổ và chúng ta học cách che miệng
    để không phát tán hơi thở của mình để chúng không thể nhìn thấy chỗ đứng của chúng ta hoặc tìm thấy chúng ta.
    Và vì vậy cơ thể con người có vài lối tắt.
    Tôi nên nói là bộ não con người.
    Chúng được gọi là nguyên lý ước lượng.
    Và vì vậy một trong số đó là đông cứng lại.
    Vì vậy khi chúng ta nghe một âm thanh lớn hoặc nhìn thấy một kẻ săn mồi hay một con chó, chúng ta đông cứng lại.
    Rõ ràng, bất kỳ ai chạy cách đây 300.000 năm đều bị cắn.
    Và vì thế chúng ta có những lối tắt này.
    Và thật thú vị đối với tôi khi chia sẻ lý do tại sao chúng ta có những hành vi này và tại sao chúng ta…
    Và bạn nhận ra rằng bạn vừa hít thở để có thể nhịn thở.
    Và sau đó chúng ta che hơi thở của mình để không phát tán ra cho các kẻ săn mồi ngửi thấy chúng ta.
    Bạn dành thời gian để viết sách.
    Bạn dành thời gian dạy học trong nhiều bối cảnh khác nhau ngày nay, bất kể là trên sân khấu hay trong các môi trường khác trên Internet.
    Điều gì là điều mà bạn đang mang đến cho mọi người?
    Đó là một câu hỏi sâu sắc mà tôi không nghĩ mình đã từng được hỏi.
    Tôi nghĩ câu trả lời đơn giản nhất là kiến thức, kiến thức mà có lẽ họ không có thời gian để tiếp nhận.
    Tôi lớn lên trong một hoàn cảnh rất nghèo.
    Tôi là một người tị nạn từ Cuba.
    Và tôi sống trong một khu vực ở Miami, chủ yếu là người già.
    Vì vậy, tôi thường ở một mình.
    Tôi đã đi qua các thùng rác để thu thập những thứ để đọc.
    Đó là kiến thức mà tôi may mắn có được, tình yêu đọc sách.
    Và tôi gặp rất nhiều người không có được lợi ích đó.
    Có thể họ không có tình yêu đọc sách và học hỏi.
    Tôi thấy mình như, ôi, tôi có kiến thức này.
    Tôi đã ngồi cùng với các kẻ khủng bố, gián điệp, kẻ thù mang súng bazooka của nước này.
    Và những người khác không bao giờ có cơ hội đó.
    Và tôi học được rất nhiều từ điều đó và từ việc đọc sách của mình.
    Vậy tại sao không chia sẻ?
    Để làm cho cuộc sống của họ trở nên dễ dàng hơn một chút.
    Khi bạn nói làm cho cuộc sống của họ dễ dàng hơn một chút, nếu tôi nhận được kiến thức của bạn, cuộc sống của tôi sẽ tốt hơn như thế nào?
    Tôi sẽ trở nên hiệu quả hơn ra sao?
    Đó là một câu hỏi tuyệt vời.
    Tưởng tượng bạn có thể nhận thức được mọi thứ sớm hơn rất nhiều
    bởi vì bạn có thể đọc người khác và tình huống nhanh hơn.
    Hầu hết mọi người thấy một hành vi và phải ngồi đó tự hỏi,
    họ có đang khó chịu với tôi không?
    Họ đang, như người Anh thường nói, vợ tôi là người Anh,
    họ đang chế nhạo hay điều gì đó không?
    Chỉ bất kỳ số thứ gì.
    Nhưng hãy tưởng tượng khả năng nhìn vào một điều gì đó
    và giải mã nó nhanh chóng hơn bao giờ hết để bạn có thể tận tâm với những điều khác.
    Nơi mà hầu hết chúng ta phân tích khuôn mặt thành trán, mắt, tai, và những thứ khác.
    Nhưng hãy tưởng tượng bạn có thể đánh giá toàn bộ khuôn mặt, vai, tay, mọi thứ cùng một lúc.
    Và rút ra những suy luận từ thông tin đó.
    Điều đó mang lại cho bạn một lợi thế to lớn.
    Và cũng vậy, trong các cuộc đàm phán, khả năng đọc người khác.
    Và đồng thời, chúng ta quên rằng người khác cũng đang đọc chúng ta.
    Và cảm nhận mà chúng ta muốn truyền tải là gì?
    Và nếu tôi đạt được tất cả kiến thức mà bạn có để cung cấp, và tôi áp dụng nó,
    Các lĩnh vực nào trong cuộc sống của tôi bạn tin là sẽ cải thiện?
    Đầu tiên, ngay trong chính bạn, ví dụ, có khả năng đánh giá bản thân.
    Vì vậy, nếu, giả sử, bạn có vấn đề với cơn giận và v.v., hoặc bạn dễ bị kích thích, vậy thì tôi sẽ đối phó với điều đó như thế nào?
    Trước tiên, bạn đánh giá, bạn biết điều gì đang diễn ra?
    Dạ dày của bạn bị khó chịu.
    Ngực thít lại.
    Cảm xúc của bạn dâng lên.
    Vậy tôi sẽ làm gì tiếp theo?
    Hầu hết mọi người không được dạy điều đó.
    Vì vậy, có một phần như vậy.
    Có cách giao tiếp, ví dụ, hiệu quả hơn với trẻ em của bạn.
    Một điều đơn giản mà, ví dụ, và không ai dạy điều này, mà tôi dạy, đó là, bạn biết đấy, nếu bạn đứng trước con của bạn như một sĩ quan huấn luyện với cái cổ cứng,
    bạn sẽ nhận được một phản ứng rất khác so với việc bạn đứng ở góc xa hơn một chút so với đứa trẻ và nghiêng đầu.
    Giao tiếp bạn sẽ trải nghiệm với đứa trẻ đó khác biệt rất nhiều chỉ bằng cách nghiêng đầu so với việc bạn đứng trực tiếp trước mặt chúng, bạn có thể nâng cao giao tiếp.
    Và sau đó bạn nói, vậy, ứng dụng đó trong cuộc sống thực là gì?
    À, bạn thực sự có thể thay đổi thời gian mà bạn nhận được từ một người khác.
    Giả sử bạn chỉ có hai phút và bạn muốn kéo dài thời gian đó chỉ bằng cách nghiêng đầu.
    Chúng tôi đã chứng minh rằng bạn có thể thay đổi số lượng thời gian giao tiếp mà ai đó sẵn sàng dành cho bạn chỉ vì chúng tôi cho thấy rằng chúng tôi đang thư giãn
    và rằng chúng tôi không tiếp cận bạn với một chương trình mà chúng tôi sẵn sàng lắng nghe.
    Nó có thể biến đổi nếu bạn áp dụng kiến thức đó.
    Bây giờ, một số người nhìn vào kiến thức và họ không làm nhiều với nó, nhưng bạn có thể sử dụng nó ở nhà, bạn có thể sử dụng nó tại nơi làm việc, bạn có thể sử dụng nó trong các cuộc đàm phán.
    Ví dụ, một trong những điều tôi dạy là giá trị của thời gian, và thời gian thực sự có thể được sử dụng như một phi ngôn ngữ.
    Vì vậy, khi tôi nói về phi ngôn ngữ, tôi đang thực sự nói về bất cứ điều gì giao tiếp nhưng không phải là một từ.
    Chà, bạn có thể sử dụng thời gian như một phi ngôn ngữ để nói rằng tôi đang kiểm soát.
    Bất kỳ ai chi phối và kiểm soát thời gian thì chi phối.
    Và vì vậy, ngay cả khi tôi thay đổi cách truyền đạt thông điệp của mình để làm chậm mọi thứ lại, bạn đã bắt đầu kiểm soát trong cuộc đàm phán đó.
    Đó là một điều tuyệt vời để chứng kiến khi bạn thực hiện nó đúng cách.
    Vì vậy, có rất nhiều ứng dụng.
    Và, bạn biết đấy, rõ ràng, như bạn, bạn về cơ bản nghiên cứu hành vi con người.
    Bạn là một doanh nhân, nhưng thực ra bạn thực sự đang trong ngành kinh doanh con người.
    Và khi chúng ta hiểu được nhu cầu, và một số thì mang tính sinh học, những mong muốn, những khao khát, sở thích, sở thích của người khác,
    họ thích thông tin được truyền tải như thế nào?
    Họ thích cà phê của họ như thế nào?
    Tất cả những điều đó.
    Nhưng sau đó họ sợ điều gì?
    Hầu hết mọi người không nói với bạn rằng họ có những nỗi sợ hãi.
    Họ nói, ồ, bạn biết đấy, tôi lo lắng về điều này hoặc điều kia.
    Tôi không biết đó có phải là một khoản đầu tư tốt hay không hoặc chúng ta sẽ phải thực hiện một số thẩm định.
    Nhưng não bộ chỉ nhận ra nỗi sợ.
    Vì vậy, một khi bạn hiểu điều đó, nó cho bạn một độ lớn để theo đuổi bất cứ điều gì bạn quan tâm làm hiệu quả hơn.
    Và sự nghiệp của bạn.
    Vâng.
    Vậy bạn đã là một đặc vụ FBI hơn 30 năm?
    Chà, tôi đã làm việc trong lĩnh vực pháp luật 30 năm.
    Tôi đã ở trong FBI 25 năm, chủ yếu làm việc trong lĩnh vực phản gián.
    Nhưng, bạn biết đấy, trong FBI, bạn không bao giờ chỉ đeo một chiếc mũ.
    Tôi cũng là một phi công.
    Vì vậy, tôi đã bay giám sát.
    Tôi là chỉ huy đội SWAT.
    Vì vậy, tôi đã thực hiện các công việc SWAT và thực sự đã làm việc với SAS từ London.
    Và sau đó tôi tham gia vào chương trình phân tích hành vi.
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi đã sử dụng kỹ năng đó để làm việc bắt giữ các gián điệp.
    Chương trình phân tích hành vi là gì?
    Vào năm 1989-1990, FBI đã phát triển một chương trình rất bí mật để phân tích không phải những người đã chết, mà thực sự, làm thế nào chúng ta sử dụng hành vi con người để bắt gián điệp, bắt khủng bố?
    Và sau đó, một khi chúng ta bắt được họ, làm thế nào chúng ta vào được tâm trí của họ?
    Làm thế nào để chúng ta khiến họ nói với chúng ta những gì họ đang làm, mục đích của họ là gì, và v.v.?
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi đã tạo ra chương trình này.
    Tôi, cùng với năm đặc vụ khác trong tổng số 12.000, đã được chọn từ FBI để trở thành một phần của chương trình phân tích hành vi mới này, cái mà lẽ ra phải được phân loại, nhưng nó đã bị rò rỉ một cách tình cờ.
    Và công việc của chúng tôi là xem xét các mối đe dọa, mối đe dọa an ninh quốc gia, và sau đó xem chúng tôi có thể sử dụng kiến thức về hành vi con người như thế nào để tấn công điều đó.
    Vì vậy, khi bạn nói rằng phần lớn công việc của bạn là bắt gián điệp, hầu hết chúng ta chỉ nghe về gián điệp từ việc xem James Bond và những điều tương tự như vậy.
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi không thực sự hiểu được thực tế về gián điệp.
    Vì vậy, nếu tôi giả vờ hoàn toàn ngốc nghếch trong một giây, các quốc gia khác gửi người vào các quốc gia khác, như Hoa Kỳ hay Vương quốc Anh hay Úc, Canada, để làm gì?
    Vì vậy, mỗi quốc gia đều có lợi ích.
    Nhiều trong số đó được đạt được thông qua ngoại giao.
    Nhiều trong số đó hiện nay được đạt được thông qua cái mà chúng tôi gọi là gián điệp.
    Vì vậy, nó không giống như trên truyền hình và trong các bộ phim.
    Một số quốc gia, đặc biệt là các quốc gia thù địch, gửi cái mà chúng tôi gọi là sĩ quan tình báo thù địch, thường giả danh là một nhà ngoại giao, nhưng thường giả dạng thành sinh viên hoặc nhà khoa học hoặc doanh nhân.
    Và công việc của họ là thu thập kiến thức trong các lĩnh vực cụ thể, kiến thức quân sự, khoa học và nghiên cứu, ý định và kế hoạch, ý định và kế hoạch quân sự.
    Hoặc họ có thể quan tâm đến, ví dụ, sản lượng lúa mì ở Argentina trong năm nay, vì điều đó có thể ảnh hưởng đến giá ngũ cốc trên toàn thế giới.
    Vì vậy, có gián điệp thương mại diễn ra.
    Và vì vậy, mỗi quốc gia tự bảo vệ mình bằng cách cố gắng xác định, ồ, ai đang ở đây cố gắng gián điệp?
    Vì vậy, đó là những gì chúng tôi làm.
    Đó là phản gián.
    Đó là gián điệp.
    Và nó không giống như trong phim.
    Chúng tôi không nhảy từ những tòa nhà.
    Dù đôi khi chúng tôi cũng làm vậy, nhưng không hấp dẫn như những điều liên quan đến James Bond. Vậy bạn đã bắt giữ gián điệp bao giờ chưa? Tôi đã. Tôi đã bắt giữ nhiều gián điệp. Hãy cho tôi biết ví dụ thú vị nhất về một gián điệp mà bạn đã xác định trong phiên tòa. Họ đến đây để làm gì? Họ đến từ quốc gia nào? Thật ra, đó là một người Mỹ, bởi vì chúng tôi cũng có những người mà chúng tôi gọi là kẻ phản bội. Trong trường hợp của Roderick James Ramsey, ông là một cá nhân mà vào năm 1989, tôi được yêu cầu phỏng vấn vì chúng tôi nghĩ ông là một nhân chứng cho cái gì đó đã xảy ra ở Đức. Ông đã từng là một hạ sĩ quân đội, đã bị đuổi khỏi quân đội. Quân đội muốn tìm hiểu xem ông biết gì về một số tài liệu bị mất hay có thấy gì không. Trong buổi phỏng vấn, trong khi tôi nghĩ ông là nhân chứng, ông đang hút thuốc lá ở nhà. Tôi đã nhắc đến tên một cá nhân đã có mặt tại căn cứ đó, nhưng đã bị các cơ quan Đức điều tra. Thực tế, là bởi Bundeskriminalamt, cơ quan tương đương với FBI. Không có lý do gì để ông phải phản ứng với điều đó. Đó chỉ là một cái tên. Nhưng khi tôi nhắc đến tên, điếu thuốc của ông đã rung lên. Và tôi biết đủ về hành vi con người để nhận ra rằng thay đổi sinh lý đó phải do một điều gì đó quan trọng. Tại sao một cái tên lại ảnh hưởng đến ông? Vì vậy, theo phương pháp khoa học, tôi đã nói chuyện với ông thêm 20 phút về một vấn đề khác. Và rồi tôi lại nhắc lại cái tên đó. Và thật đúng, điếu thuốc của ông lại rung lên. Và vào thời điểm đó, tôi đã chắc chắn rằng có điều gì đó xấu xa ở đó. Hóa ra, người Đức đã bắt giữ Conrad. Conrad đã ở đó. Clyde Conrad. Đó là tên của người đã bị nghi ngờ. Người mà tôi đang phỏng vấn, Rod Ramsey, thì không. Vì vậy, tôi rời khỏi buổi phỏng vấn đó, và tôi đã thuyết phục các cấp trên tiếp tục nói chuyện với Rod Ramsey. Và điều đó dẫn đến một cuộc điều tra kéo dài 10 năm và bắt giữ thêm ba, bốn, năm, sáu, bảy cá nhân khác. Vậy là chàng trai Rod, Roderick Ramsey với điếu thuốc rung rung là, ông ấy đang do thám Mỹ? Điều ông đang làm, và đó là một câu hỏi hay, và xin lỗi tôi vì không giải thích. Khi ông còn trong quân đội, ông và Clyde Lee Conrad đã đánh cắp bí mật quân sự. Từ đâu? Từ Quân đội Mỹ. Họ đã lấy bí mật của Quân đội Mỹ và sau đó bán cho Liên Xô thông qua Cơ quan tình báo Hungary. Vì vậy, ông là kẻ phản bội của Hoa Kỳ. Vậy là ông là kẻ phản bội. Và đó thường là vấn đề lớn nhất đối với bất kỳ quốc gia nào, đó là những kẻ phản bội từ bên trong. Họ đã nâng cao hoạt động gián điệp lên mức độ công nghiệp. Ý tôi là, đến mức họ thậm chí không còn sử dụng máy ảnh 35mm để chụp những tài liệu nữa. Họ thực sự đã quay video những tài liệu đó để có thể nhanh chóng xử lý hàng ngàn trang. Đây là vụ gián điệp tổn hại nhất trong lịch sử Hoa Kỳ vì họ đã làm lộ các mã số khởi động hạt nhân của Hoa Kỳ tại Đức. Và điều đó đã để lại cho toàn bộ Tây Âu bị lộ. Mã khởi động hạt nhân? Vâng. Đó là gì? Tất cả các tài sản hạt nhân của chúng ta trên toàn thế giới đều được kiểm soát bởi hai điều. Có cái được gọi là “liên kết hành động cho phép”, giống như một khoá an toàn vào phút chót trên từng thiết bị. Và sau đó có mã khởi động cho biết có quyền lực để sử dụng vũ khí này. Vậy nên Ramsey đã có thể đánh cắp chính mã khởi động hạt nhân. Nó là một thẻ. Nó được làm từ một chất liệu đặc biệt mà tôi không thể mô tả. Nó được làm từ kim loại và nhựa đặc biệt cùng các vật liệu khác. Và mối nguy hiểm tiềm ẩn trong những gì họ đã làm không phải là họ có thể khởi động một vụ phóng. Điều đó chỉ có thể được khởi động ở cấp độ quyền lực chỉ huy quốc gia. Nhưng nếu điều này bị xâm phạm và giao cho, giả sử, người Nga vào thời điểm đó, Liên Xô, trước năm 1989, thì một dịch vụ tình báo nước ngoài thù địch có thể lấy điều đó và sao chép nó, nhưng đặt vào đó những con số sai. Và bằng cách đưa những con số sai vào đó, nếu nó ở trong một cấu trúc kim tự tháp và được đặt cao đủ, phải không? Giả sử bạn kiểm soát toàn bộ bờ Đông. Có thể bạn không muốn do thám cho Nga, nhưng với 100,000 đô la, giả sử bạn sẵn sàng đưa điều này vào đó và lấy cái đã có trong đó ra. Được rồi, vì vậy có thể điều đó giúp bạn bớt cắn rứt lương tâm bằng cách nào đó. Sau đó, bạn về cơ bản, nếu đó là một loại sơ đồ kim tự tháp, bạn có thể làm tê liệt mọi thứ bên dưới nó. Được rồi, vì vậy ai đó có thể đã thay đổi mã, đưa một cái giả vào, có nghĩa là nó sẽ không còn hoạt động nữa. Ở cấp độ cao nhất, thì sẽ không có gì hoạt động nếu bạn có quyền truy cập ở cấp độ cao nhất. Họ có bị vào tù không? Oh, có. Có. Người có điếu thuốc rung rung đã vào tù. 33 năm. Để tôi kết thúc bằng cách nói điều này. Vụ án này đã đặt một quả bóng cho Tây Âu vào tình thế nguy hiểm, cũng như Hoa Kỳ. Người tướng đã làm chứng trong vụ án này nói rằng nếu xảy ra xung đột, việc thất bại của phương Tây sẽ được đảm bảo trong vòng ba ngày. Đó là mức độ tàn khốc của nó. Vâng, hãy để điều đó ngấm vào. Đó là lời của ông ấy. Việc thất bại của phương Tây sẽ được đảm bảo vì những tổn hại mà những cá nhân này đã gây ra. Không phải tất cả các vụ án đều quan trọng như vậy trong việc bắt giữ gián điệp. Vì vậy, tôi đã đọc về một vụ khác mà bạn đã bắt giữ một người đàn ông vì cách anh ta cầm một số bông hoa. Vâng. Bạn biết đấy, nhiều khi thông tin chỉ dựa trên hành vi. Bạn biết đấy, bạn thấy xem có bao nhiêu lần ai đó nhìn vào đồng hồ của họ. Đúng thế. Nhưng có thể khi họ tham gia hoạt động, họ nhìn vào đồng hồ thường xuyên hơn. Và họ đã quay phim người đàn ông này mà chúng tôi nghĩ là người mà chúng tôi gọi là “bất hợp pháp.” Trong ngôn ngữ của hoạt động gián điệp, một người bất hợp pháp là người mà tự dưng xuất hiện ở Hoa Kỳ và giả vờ là một người Mỹ, đã luôn là người Mỹ, giống như trong loạt phim “The Americans.” Nhưng chúng tôi đã có một số manh mối từ một trong những dịch vụ chị em của chúng tôi từ một quốc gia khác và nói, chúng tôi nghĩ cá nhân này có thể là người mà các bạn cần xem xét đang giả vờ là một người Mỹ.
    Chúng tôi đang xem xét, chúng tôi tập hợp toàn bộ đội ngũ lại, tất cả sáu người chúng tôi. Và chúng tôi đang xem bộ phim và, bạn biết đấy, nó được quay một cách tình cờ vào Ngày Valentine. Vì vậy, chúng tôi thấy anh ấy bước vào một cửa hàng hoa và rời khỏi cửa hàng hoa. Khi anh ấy ra ngoài, tôi đã nói, chắc chắn anh ấy không phải là người Mỹ. Bạn biết đấy, tất cả mọi người nhìn tôi như kiểu, xin lỗi. Và tôi nói, anh ấy không đến từ đây. Anh ấy nói, làm sao? Và anh ấy nói, nhìn cách anh ấy mang bó hoa. Người Mỹ thường cầm bó hoa ngược lên. Còn người Đông Âu thì cầm xuống. Và, và tiếp tục mang nó theo cách đó. Vì vậy, tôi đã làm điều gọi là giả định. Chúng tôi dừng anh ấy lại một ngày và, và tôi nói, bạn biết đấy, tôi là người của FBI và, và tôi nói, bạn có muốn biết chúng tôi biết như thế nào không? Và đó là, đó là tín hiệu đầu tiên mà tôi đang tìm kiếm để xem anh ấy phản ứng thế nào. Và anh ấy đã bị lừa. Anh ấy nói, tiếp tục đi. Hầu hết mọi người sẽ nói, biến đi, đi chỗ khác. Và, và tôi nói, đó là cách bạn cầm hoa. Cằm của anh ấy hạ xuống, mí mắt anh ấy trở nên nặng trĩu. Khi anh ấy đang đánh giá mọi thứ mà anh ấy đã làm, bạn biết đấy, anh ấy đã thực hành mọi thứ. Tiếng Anh của anh ấy rất hoàn hảo. Bạn biết đấy, anh ấy nghe giống như một người Midwesterner và tất cả những thứ đó. Sau vài giờ trò chuyện thật thú vị, anh ấy đồng ý hợp tác với chúng tôi và thừa nhận mọi thứ. Anh ấy đã thừa nhận điều gì? Rằng anh ấy đã được gửi đến đây bởi một chính phủ nước ngoài. Rằng công việc của anh ấy như một người nhập cư bất hợp pháp là ở lại Hoa Kỳ, hành động như một người Mỹ. Và hầu hết mọi người không hiểu, tại sao một quốc gia lại tiêu tốn nhiều tiền để đào tạo những người này giống như một người Mỹ? Và điều họ không hiểu là mục đích của họ ở đây là để khi có xung đột xảy ra. Họ có thể báo cáo về, ví dụ, giao thông tàu hỏa, những tàu nào chở vũ khí, những sân bay nào đang được sử dụng cho mục đích gì. Nhiều lần, như anh ấy đã nói với chúng tôi sau đó, họ được cung cấp những kho vũ khí để có thể phá hủy những thứ mà không tên lửa nào có thể làm được. Vì vậy, đó là vai trò của họ trong việc ẩn mình ở Mỹ. Không phải để thực hiện gián điệp. Mà là để ở đây trong trường hợp có xung đột xảy ra. Vậy bạn đã lật ngược anh ấy để làm việc với FBI? Đúng vậy. Và điều đó có nghĩa là anh ấy không bị trừng phạt? Chà, anh ấy không bị trừng phạt vì anh ấy không phạm tội nào khác ngoài vi phạm nhập cư. Nhưng những gì anh ấy có thể tiết lộ cho chúng tôi thì không kém phần gây sửng sốt. Quốc gia nào đây? Tôi không thể nói. Nhưng rõ ràng, họ phải có đủ tiền và đủ mối quan tâm để thực hiện một hoạt động như thế này. Nếu bạn phải đoán xem có bao nhiêu người sống trong chúng ta đã được gửi từ một quốc gia nước ngoài và là gián điệp, bạn nghĩ là bao nhiêu người? Chà, hãy định nghĩa điều đó. Bạn biết đấy, nếu họ là sĩ quan tình báo thù địch, nó có thể từ 3% nhân viên ngoại giao đến nhiều nhất, vào một thời điểm nào đó, Liên Xô, 85% nhân viên của họ đã thực hiện các hoạt động gián điệp. Tôi nghĩ con số đó, vậy bạn có những điều đó. Bây giờ, nếu bạn đang đề cập đến, như, có bao nhiêu người bất hợp pháp, tôi sẽ nói ít nhất bạn sẽ có ít nhất hai tá ở Vương quốc Anh, có thể một tá ở Pháp. Và, bạn biết đấy, bạn sẽ có một loạt, một chòm sao trong số họ ở Hoa Kỳ, chỉ đơn giản vì chúng tôi trải dài qua năm múi giờ. Tôi tin rằng Vương quốc Anh chỉ trải dài một múi giờ. Tôi nghĩ tôi đã hỏi điều này một phần vì tôi đang đọc một cái gì đó nói rằng nhiều người nhập cư bất hợp pháp đã vượt biên qua biên giới phía nam của Hoa Kỳ, nhiều người trong số họ là người Trung Quốc. Và đã có một bài báo về việc đặt câu hỏi liệu đó có thể là một hành động có chủ ý để đưa người Trung Quốc bất hợp pháp vào Hoa Kỳ cho một mục đích trong tương lai nào đó. Bạn biết đấy, những tuyên bố lớn cần bằng chứng lớn, và tôi chưa thấy điều đó. Trong kinh nghiệm của tôi, dịch vụ tình báo Trung Quốc thích sử dụng sinh viên và các nhà khoa học. Chúng tôi có khoảng 80.000 sinh viên Trung Quốc ở đây vào bất kỳ thời điểm nào. Tôi biết rằng, ví dụ, vào cuối những năm 80 và đầu những năm 90, họ sẽ được cấp tiền trợ cấp. Luôn làm tôi ấn tượng rằng họ được cấp tiền trợ cấp nhỏ cho bữa ăn, nhưng tiền trợ cấp lớn để sao chép ở thư viện. Chúng tôi gọi đó là một manh mối trong FBI. Vậy nên họ sẽ được cấp 150 đô la để ăn, nhưng họ sẽ được cấp hàng nghìn đô la để có thể sao chép càng nhiều càng tốt từ các thư viện. Thật dễ dàng hơn cho họ, cho bất kỳ quốc gia nào, để gửi người đến đây, sinh viên, và ví dụ, vào ngành kỹ thuật hoặc bất kỳ lĩnh vực nào đó. Về chủ đề ngôn ngữ cơ thể, điều này gây tranh cãi cao vì một số người nói rằng ngôn ngữ cơ thể thực sự cung cấp cho chúng ta những manh mối. Một số người thì nói rằng nó không cung cấp manh mối vì có sự khác biệt văn hóa. Ngôn ngữ cơ thể có quan trọng không? Chà, hãy để tôi giải quyết những gì bạn vừa hỏi. Đầu tiên, ngôn ngữ cơ thể là cực kỳ quan trọng vì chúng ta sinh ra mà không có khả năng nói. Vì vậy, chúng ta phải đọc đứa trẻ trước mặt chúng ta. Để lập luận rằng ngôn ngữ cơ thể, A, không quan trọng hoặc nó phụ thuộc vào sự diễn giải, tôi sẽ lập luận rằng đó sẽ là một cảm xúc rất nhỏ trên toàn thế giới giữa những người thực sự đã nghiên cứu điều này. Và tôi sẽ nói tại sao. Một em bé sinh ra mà không có khả năng nói, nhưng người mẹ nhanh chóng học được thông qua ngôn ngữ phi ngữ nghĩa liệu rằng đứa trẻ đó có bị đau bụng hay không, liệu rằng đứa trẻ đó có cần được trấn an hay không, liệu chúng có lạnh hay nóng và vân vân. Có rất nhiều thứ linh tinh ở ngoài kia, và đây có lẽ là từ sạch nhất mà tôi có thể sử dụng về ngôn ngữ cơ thể, rằng điều này có nghĩa là gì đó hay bất kỳ điều gì đó tương tự. Nhưng chúng ta được chuẩn bị tuyệt vời để giao tiếp bất cứ lúc nào, dù cho chúng ta có thoải mái hay không thoải mái, dù chúng ta có tự tin hay không hiểu. Chúng ta đã phải phát triển khả năng đó chính xác vì chúng ta luôn bị bao quanh bởi những kẻ săn mồi. Ví dụ, Stephen, khi bạn có những nghi ngờ hoặc bạn muốn theo dõi các câu hỏi mà tôi hỏi, bạn sử dụng đôi mắt của bạn một cách tinh tế. Bạn nhíu mày. Một bên mắt nhấc lên, bên mắt kia hạ xuống. Bạn rất dễ dàng để đọc. Vì vậy, tôi tiếp tục cung cấp thông tin. Bạn không cần phải dạy tôi điều đó.
    Bây giờ, điều tôi muốn tranh luận là, có phải tôi đang thấy sự hạn chế không?
    Có phải tôi đang thấy sự khinh miệt hoặc coi thường không?
    À, đó là một lập luận ngu ngốc.
    Chúng ta không tiến hóa để có những câu trả lời hoàn hảo.
    Tiến hóa là về sự xấp xỉ để thành công.
    Nói cách khác, nếu tôi có thể chính xác 75% đến 80% thời gian, thì đó thực sự là đủ tốt.
    Đó là đủ tốt.
    Và vì vậy, điều tôi dạy là, bạn có thấy sự thoải mái hay không thoải mái, tâm lý, thể chất, và những thứ tương tự?
    Tôi có thấy, như trong tâm lý học, chúng ta nói, đó có phải là tích cực hay tiêu cực không?
    Cân bằng, bạn thấy không?
    Bạn đang nhăn mày lại.
    Cái “valenced” có nghĩa là gì?
    Valence thực sự có nghĩa là nó cân bằng hoặc có bao nhiêu năng lượng đi theo hướng này hoặc hướng kia.
    Valence của nó là gì?
    Nếu một cái gì đó có valence tích cực, điều đó có nghĩa là gì?
    Valence tích cực, bạn sẽ thấy những hành vi phi trọng lực.
    Bạn sẽ thấy sự nhấn mạnh.
    Bạn sẽ thấy rất nhiều sự hài hước và hoạt bát và những cử chỉ rộng lớn và những thứ tương tự.
    Nếu nó có valence tiêu cực, thì, bạn biết đấy, là sự kiềm chế.
    Bạn sẽ thấy sự nhăn mày lại.
    Bạn sẽ thấy sự thắt chặt, sự thu hẹp của đôi môi.
    Bạn sẽ thấy rất nhiều sự chạm vào khuôn mặt.
    Tôi không biết, đúng không?
    Tất cả những cái pacifier này.
    Và vì vậy, tôi muốn tranh luận rằng hãy ngừng tìm kiếm sự hoàn hảo.
    Thực tế, Tiến sĩ Ambadi tại Harvard, thật không may cô ấy đã qua đời, đã phát hiện ra rằng chúng ta, như những con người, sẽ chính xác 75% thời gian trong việc đánh giá lẫn nhau.
    Đó là một con số đáng kinh ngạc.
    Nghiên cứu của cô ấy rất phong phú.
    Bạn có thể tìm nghiên cứu của cô ấy.
    Tất cả đều được thực hiện trên cơ sở tìm kiếm những gì cô ấy gọi là đánh giá lát mỏng.
    Đánh giá lát mỏng, tất cả những người xem của bạn nên biết.
    Bởi vì nó cho thấy rằng chỉ từ ba phần nghìn giây, chúng ta thực sự có được một đánh giá khá tốt về nhau.
    Và chúng ta viết chính xác 75% thời gian với ba phần nghìn giây.
    Vâng.
    Vì vậy, họ đã thực hiện một số thí nghiệm.
    Họ đã để người ta vào và quan sát một giáo viên, chẳng hạn, chỉ bằng cách mở cửa lớp học, quan sát cô ấy trong vài giây và đóng cửa.
    Họ đã đánh giá giáo viên đó giống như những người đã ngồi trong lớp học suốt cả kỳ học.
    Về…
    Họ có phải là giáo viên tốt không?
    Họ có phải là giáo viên ấm áp không?
    Họ có phải là giáo viên đồng cảm không?
    Họ có phải là giáo viên có năng lực không?
    Và những thứ tương tự.
    Khi bạn xoa mặt, bởi vì có rất nhiều sự hoài nghi ở đó.
    Bạn phải đánh giá rằng thí nghiệm này được thực hiện đi thực hiện lại nhiều lần trong nhiều lĩnh vực.
    Tôi đang nghĩ, khi bạn nói điều đó, tôi đang nghĩ, trời ơi.
    Tôi đang nghĩ rằng nếu ai đó đọc bạn nhanh như vậy, tôi đang nghĩ về việc dễ dàng để lại ấn tượng xấu ban đầu.
    Chà, bạn biết đấy, khi tôi bắt đầu học ngôn ngữ cơ thể, chính thức vào năm 1971, tôi không hề đánh giá cao việc học ở trường.
    Vì vậy, tôi đã tạo ra chương trình học riêng của mình.
    Khi tôi bắt đầu xem xét ngôn ngữ cơ thể vào năm 1971, tôi nhớ mọi người đã nói, bạn biết đấy, 20 phút đầu tiên là quan trọng nhất để tạo ấn tượng.
    Sau đó, nhiều năm sau, nó giảm xuống còn 15 phút.
    Đến những năm 1980, có người đã nói, chà, đó là 4 phút đầu tiên.
    Chà, dừng lại.
    Đó là thông tin cổ xưa.
    Chúng ta bây giờ biết rằng đánh giá đó được thực hiện trong ba phần nghìn giây đầu tiên.
    Nó nhanh hơn tốc độ nháy mắt của bạn.
    Và bạn có thể bắt đầu làm mọi thứ tồi tệ và xấu và bắt đầu ảnh hưởng tiêu cực đến người khác trong khoảng thời gian đó vì tiềm thức đang đánh giá người khác nhanh hơn.
    Và tiện thể, tôi chưa đề cập đến điều này.
    Ngay cả trước khi chúng ta được sinh ra, chúng ta đang đánh giá thế giới xung quanh đến mức vì lý do sống sót, một đứa trẻ trong bụng mẹ bắt đầu đánh giá thế giới xung quanh thông qua lượng âm thanh và cách phát âm và giọng nói của mẹ, để khi đứa trẻ đó được sinh ra, và bạn có thể tìm nghiên cứu, đứa trẻ sẽ được sinh ra với cách khóc phù hợp với ngôn ngữ mẹ đẻ, để mà, như các nhà nghiên cứu đã phát hiện, một đứa trẻ có mẹ người Đức sẽ khóc khác đi, sẽ khóc khác đi, âm điệu, L-I-L-T, âm điệu của đứa trẻ đó sẽ khác so với một đứa trẻ Pháp.
    Điều đó chiếm ưu thế để chúng ta có thể hòa hợp tốt hơn.
    Và điều này thẳng thắn đến kinh doanh vì đồng bộ là sự hòa hợp.
    Càng nhanh chóng chúng ta có thể đồng bộ, càng nhanh chóng chúng ta có thể hòa hợp.
    Và vì vậy, chúng ta đã được lập trình sẵn.
    Nếu những người xem của bạn quan tâm đến điều đó, họ có thể xem nghiên cứu đã được thực hiện về âm điệu khóc của trẻ sơ sinh.
    Làm thế nào để một người đồng bộ hóa?
    Vì vậy, nếu đồng bộ bằng sự hòa hợp, tức là, nếu chúng ta đồng bộ với nhau, thì chúng ta sẽ hòa hợp trong kinh doanh hoặc trong cuộc sống hoặc bất cứ điều gì.
    Đúng.
    Tôi làm thế nào để đồng bộ với ai đó khi tôi gặp họ?
    Điều đầu tiên là, từ một khoảng cách, nếu tôi thấy bạn đi bộ xuống hành lang và bạn nói, chào Joe, bạn biết đấy, và tôi nói, Steve, bạn khỏe không?
    Đúng không?
    Tôi đang phản chiếu bạn.
    Bạn biết đấy, điều này quay về công việc của Carl Rogers vào những năm 1960.
    Và ông đã tìm ra rằng đồng bộ khiến chúng ta bị khóa chặt vào sự ràng buộc tâm lý này, nơi bạn chào bằng tay và nhướn lông mày, chào, điều đó gửi đi những thông điệp mạnh mẽ.
    Vì vậy, nếu tôi làm như vậy, bạn có thể tưởng tượng nếu bạn chào tôi như thế này và tôi đã nói, ừ, bạn khỏe không?
    Ừ.
    Giống như, chúng ta hoàn toàn không hòa hợp.
    Chúng ta hoàn toàn không đồng bộ.
    Vì vậy, chúng ta bắt đầu bằng những điều không lời.
    Chúng ta bắt đầu, ví dụ, với cách ăn mặc.
    Bạn biết đấy, nếu bạn tham gia một cuộc họp, bạn biết đấy, chúng tôi có thể sẽ ăn mặc giống nhau hoặc gần giống nhau.
    Chúng tôi có thể sẽ có, nhìn chúng tôi ngay bây giờ với những cử chỉ tay.
    Chúng tôi đang thực sự phản chiếu các cử chỉ tay của nhau đến mức mà các ngón tay cái của chúng tôi hoàn toàn giống nhau.
    Tại sao?
    Bởi vì chúng tôi cảm thấy thoải mái với nhau.
    Chúng tôi sẽ nghiêng người về phía nhau nếu chúng tôi hòa hợp tốt.
    Và đến mức bạn thực sự có thể làm việc với các cá nhân để làm dịu họ hoặc thấy mọi thứ theo cách của bạn hoặc để trân trọng, giả sử, trong các cuộc đàm phán, để bắt đầu tiếp nhận hơn.
    Mọi người sẽ tiếp nhận hơn nếu họ có thể phản chiếu hành vi của bạn.
    Vì vậy, mọi người sẽ tiếp nhận hơn nếu họ có thể phản chiếu hành vi của bạn.
    Nếu tôi để bạn phản chiếu hành vi của tôi, thì bạn sẽ dễ tiếp thu hơn những gì tôi nói. Có phải đó là điều bạn đang nói không? Nói chung, chúng ta không thể bắt chước lẫn nhau như thể đó là một trò chơi. Vâng, vâng, vâng. Nó sẽ trở nên vô lý. Nhưng không có cách nào chúng ta có thể đàm phán nếu bạn đang la hét và tôi thì điềm tĩnh. Đúng. Nó đơn giản là không xảy ra. Chẳng hạn, bạn và tôi có thể đang làm khá tốt việc phản chiếu lẫn nhau trong cuộc trò chuyện. Chúng ta có khả năng thành công hơn, có thêm thời gian giao tiếp và đạt được nhiều hơn nếu chúng ta có thể nói chuyện với nhau theo cách này hơn là nếu đột nhiên tôi quyết định ngồi nghiêng, gác chân lên và tựa khuỷu tay. Cử chỉ đó một mình, mặc dù nó thể hiện sự thoải mái, nhưng không đưa chúng ta vào sự đồng bộ. Và mọi thứ mà tôi từng tìm hiểu, ngay cả khi tôi nói chuyện với những kẻ khủng bố, ngay cả khi nói chuyện với những kẻ khủng bố hoàn toàn ghét tôi, ghét nhiều thứ khác, nếu tôi có thể chỉ khiến họ quay lại đến mức chúng tôi nói chuyện với nhau theo cách cơ bản giống nhau và sử dụng những từ giống nhau, nếu họ nói, gia đình tôi, đừng nói vợ và con cái. Hãy dùng từ gia đình. Đừng sử dụng những thuật ngữ chuyên môn. Bạn biết đấy, nếu họ nói, vậy giá cả là gì? Đừng quay lại và nói, ồ, đây là điểm trên điều này. Đó không phải là điều họ đã hỏi. Đó là một cách tuyệt vời để chứng minh rằng bạn không đang lắng nghe. Và điều khác mà tôi luôn nhấn mạnh là trong nhiều năm, mọi người đã nói, hãy cố gắng giảm bớt mọi thứ mang tính cảm xúc để nó không gây cản trở. Đó không phải là cách mà chúng ta tiến hóa. Đó hoàn toàn không phải là cách mà chúng ta tiến hóa. Chúng ta đã tiến hóa để đối phó với cảm xúc vì cảm xúc giữ cho chúng ta sống sót. Khi amygdala của chúng ta cảm nhận một mối đe dọa, nó ở đó để đối phó với điều đó. Và bất cứ điều gì tiêu cực đều nổi lên nổi bật. Đó là một trong những điều đầu tiên tôi dạy. Nếu điều gì đó thực sự tiêu cực, nó sẽ nổi lên nổi bật. Chúng ta đánh giá về nó trước. Chúng ta xử lý điều đó trước. Và thường thì trong kinh doanh, điều chúng ta thấy là, bạn biết đấy, ai đó đã gặp khó khăn trong việc tìm địa điểm của bạn. Họ đã gặp khó khăn trong việc đỗ xe. Sau đó, họ phải gặp lễ tân của bạn, người đang nói chuyện điện thoại và mất khoảng bảy phút để thậm chí nói chào buổi sáng. Và khi họ làm điều đó, họ không có chút hăng hái nào. Sau đó, họ phải qua bảo vệ. Rồi họ phải đi lên thang máy chen chúc và cuối cùng mới tới văn phòng của bạn. Và bạn mong họ nhảy ngay vào cuộc họp mà không có tất cả những tiêu cực đã được tích lũy. Đó không phải là cách mà con người tiến hóa. Đó hoàn toàn không phải là cách mà loài người của chúng ta tiến hóa. Loài của chúng ta đã tiến hóa để giảm thiểu điều đó, để giảm thiểu điều đó bằng cách trước tiên xử lý nó. Đó là từ đâu mà nghệ thuật kể chuyện một phần đã ra đời, nơi chúng ta đến và nói, bạn biết đấy, tôi đã đuổi theo nó. Tôi đã bị tấn công, sau đó tôi đã phản công, bạn biết đấy. Và sau đó chúng ta đi qua toàn bộ câu chuyện, điều này có tầm huyền thoại và các khía cạnh huyền thoại như những nguyên mẫu. Và nếu bạn theo trường phái tâm lý Jung, một trong những lập luận mà tôi luôn sử dụng là điều này. Bao nhiêu bạn đã từng tham gia một cuộc tranh cãi và sau đó 30 phút sau, bạn nhớ tất cả những câu nói thông minh mà bạn nên nói? Tất cả chúng ta đều đã trải qua điều đó. Và đó là bởi vì não cảm xúc đánh cắp hoạt động thần kinh. Nếu bạn muốn điều tốt nhất từ mọi người, nếu bạn muốn điều tốt nhất từ một mối quan hệ, hãy giải tỏa điều đó. Hãy làm cho nó ra. Cho nó thời gian. Được rồi. Và vâng, bạn sẽ phải đầu tư thời gian đó và sau đó tiến về phía trước để bạn có thể xử lý các giao dịch, công việc kinh doanh và những thứ khác. Bạn đã tham chiếu một vài lần về các loại ngôn ngữ cơ thể khác nhau mà tôi đã thể hiện giúp bạn hiểu những gì tôi đang nghĩ và trải qua. Vâng. Tôi nghĩ hồi nãy, bạn đã đề cập đến glabella. Và điều này đưa tôi đến một điều tôi đã đọc trong công việc của bạn về việc nhăn mày. Vâng. Nhăn mày là gì? Khu vực nhỏ này giữa hai mắt của bạn được gọi là glabella. Và glabella rất tuyệt vì khoảng, ôi, tôi đã thấy ở trẻ sơ sinh từ khi mới ra đời khoảng ba hoặc bốn ngày. Nhưng rất sớm, chúng ta bắt đầu nhăn lại. Nói cách khác, chúng ta siết chặt lại khi có nghi ngờ hoặc khi không thích một điều gì đó hoặc không hiểu điều gì đó. Vì vậy, chúng ta nhăn glabella. Một số người gọi đó là nhăn mày vì chúng ta có lông mày đẹp hơn ngày nay, không rậm rạp như thời xưa. Chúng không chạm vào nhau như trước đây. Vì vậy, nhiều biểu hiện của việc, tôi không hiểu, chúng ta sử dụng với đôi mắt híp lại, glabella nhăn lại. Bạn biết đấy, đôi khi chúng ta sẽ chạm vào mặt hoặc gãi mặt của mình. Trẻ sơ sinh ở 47 giây, điều này tôi đã quan sát trực tiếp. Nếu bạn chiếu ánh sáng vào một em bé sơ sinh, nó sẽ nhăn cằm vì nó không thích điều đó. Và trong các bài thuyết trình của tôi, tôi có một hình ảnh tương ứng giữa một người đàn ông 47 tuổi và một em bé 47 giây tuổi, cả hai đều làm điều tương tự khi họ nghe những điều mà họ không thích. Vì vậy, chúng ta bắt đầu giao tiếp khá nhiều, thực sự, bằng khuôn mặt của mình. Còn việc chạm vào mí mắt thì sao? Vâng. Vì vậy, trong một thời gian dài, bao gồm cả trong một số bài viết của tôi, lý thuyết là nhiều người che mắt, chạm vào mắt khi họ nghe tin xấu. Bạn đã nói, ơi Joe, bạn có thể giúp tôi chuyển nhà cuối tuần này không? Oh, trời ơi, Steve. Đúng không? Bạn thấy nhiều điều đó. Và tôi đã bắt đầu nghĩ về điều đó khoảng năm hay sáu năm trước. Và vì vậy, tôi đã tham gia một số lớp học về giải phẫu, giải phẫu con người. Và bây giờ tôi khá chắc chắn rằng nhiều hành động chạm vào mặt, bao gồm cả việc chạm vào mắt và những thứ khác, liên quan đến sự chi phối của dây thần kinh sọ số năm và dây thần kinh sọ số bảy. Bây giờ, một số người xem của bạn có thể cảm thấy điều này thú vị, rằng dây thần kinh đó, nó đi đến trán của chúng ta và thực sự đi vào mí mắt của chúng ta và những thứ khác, và dây thần kinh số bảy, là dây thần kinh mặt, rất gần với não phần đó nơi nó được nhận. Vì vậy, tôi nghĩ, bạn biết đấy, tôi đã giả định, tôi đã viết cho Psychology Today, rằng nhiều lý do tại sao chúng ta chạm vào mặt của mình và tại sao chúng ta chạm vào mắt của mình, ôi không, là vì áp lực đó ngay lập tức đi đến não và giúp giảm căng thẳng. Và vì dây thần kinh rất ngắn, đúng không? Chúng ta có thể mát xa chân của mình và đạt được điều tương tự, nhưng nó thì xa xôi hơn.
    Tôi nghĩ rằng việc chạm vào mặt, bao gồm cả việc chạm vào mắt, là một hành động mà chúng ta thường làm để tự xoa dịu khi cảm thấy căng thẳng. Thú vị là, vào năm 1974, khi tôi còn là sinh viên đại học, tôi cảm thấy nhàm chán. Có một phòng thí nghiệm nơi bạn có thể quan sát trẻ em và nghiên cứu chúng khi đang chơi. Họ có một số trẻ em sinh ra đã mù, vì thế chúng chưa bao giờ nhìn thấy. Tôi thực sự ấn tượng. Lần đầu tiên tôi thấy một đứa trẻ mù chưa bao giờ nhìn thấy, khi nghe tin tức không tốt, nó lập tức che mắt lại, mặc dù chưa bao giờ thấy. Đó là lúc tôi nhận ra rằng, chúng ta có 2,4 triệu năm lịch sử. Điều này đã được lập trình sẵn trong DNA của chúng ta. Đây là một phần trong các mạch cổ xưa của chúng ta, như Dr. David Gibbons đã dạy tôi sau này. Nó liên quan đến cảm giác mà chúng ta có. Đó là lý do tại sao chúng ta chạm vào mặt nhiều như vậy. Thông thường, đó là một cảm xúc tiêu cực và là hình thức tự xoa dịu cho cảm xúc tiêu cực đó. Tôi nghĩ đó là một tóm tắt tốt.
    Nhưng cũng cần nhớ rằng chúng ta cũng chạm vào mặt khi đang thưởng thức một khoảnh khắc vui vẻ. Ví dụ như khi tôi đọc sách, tôi thấy mình lật trang rất nhanh. Tôi lật trang bằng tay trái, nhưng tôi tự xoa dịu mình bằng cách chạm vào mặt, kiểu như một tư thế suy tư. Phụ nữ thường chơi với tóc của mình. Suốt cả ngày, não của chúng ta yêu cầu chúng ta làm những điều để góp phần vào điều đó. Nhưng khi có điều gì căng thẳng xảy ra, chẳng hạn như trong các cuộc đàm phán, khi ai đó đưa ra một con số mà chúng ta không thích, chúng ta sẽ chuyển từ việc chạm vào mặt sang gãi mặt, vì não đang nói, “Này, hãy làm điều gì đó mạnh mẽ hơn để giữ tôi trong trạng thái cân bằng mà chúng ta gọi là homeostasis.”
    Vì vậy, để trả lời câu hỏi của bạn, đúng, nhưng điều đó cũng áp dụng khi chúng ta thực sự tận hưởng một khoảnh khắc. Còn về môi thì sao? Bạn đã nói một chút về việc môi bị bĩu và những thứ khác. Môi cung cấp những manh mối gì? Đối với tôi, môi giống như một seismograph. Môi là seismograph cảm xúc của cơ thể. Khi chúng ta thoải mái và tự tin, môi của chúng ta căng đầy máu, màu sắc thay đổi. Ngay khi nghe điều gì đó không thích, máu bắt đầu rời khỏi môi và chúng trở nên hẹp hơn, sau đó chúng ta bắt đầu siết chặt chúng lại. Bạn biết đấy, nếu ai đó nói điều gì đó tôi không thích, tôi có thể thì thầm, “Hừm,” phải không? Hoặc chúng ta bắt đầu cắn môi vì căng thẳng hoặc kéo nó, làm đủ loại thứ để tự xoa dịu. Nhưng môi thể hiện nhiều cảm xúc lo âu khi chúng ta bị căng thẳng. Chúng rất nhạy cảm, như cả hàm dưới. Chẳng hạn, nếu bạn nói điều gì đó mà tôi không đồng ý, tôi có thể chuyển hàm dưới của mình vì khi bạn chuyển hàm thì tạo áp lực lên khớp hàm (TMJ). Chỉ riêng việc đó đã nói với não rằng hãy chuyển sự chú ý đi nơi khác, đừng, đừng chiến đấu quá nhiều với điều đó. Vì vậy, chúng ta luôn làm điều gì đó về mặt thể chất để chống lại bất cứ điều gì mà não có thể đang trải qua.
    Nói cho tôi biết về chỗ lõm dưới xương ức. Chỗ lõm dưới xương ức có những tên gọi khác. Bạn có thể gọi nó là chỗ lõm nhỏ ở cổ, vùng nhỏ ngay dưới cổ họng của bạn. Đây là phần dễ bị tổn thương nhất trong cơ thể con người. Tất cả không khí, thức ăn, chất dinh dưỡng, máu, điện, oxy, mọi thứ đều đi qua đó. Một điều tôi nhận thấy là vào năm 1975 và 1976, khi tôi tìm kiếm tài liệu thì không có gì mô tả hiện tượng này, tôi nhận thấy rằng khi mọi người lo lắng, họ lập tức che cổ, chạm vào cổ. Trong tài liệu, bạn sẽ nghe thấy, “Ôi, cô ấy đã nắm chặt chuỗi ngọc trai,” đúng không? Việc xoa bóp đó có xu hướng được nam giới thực hiện mạnh mẽ hơn do testosterone. Phụ nữ có xu hướng chạm trực tiếp hơn vào chỗ lõm dưới xương ức. Và điều tôi phát hiện là, khi không có sự tự tin, khi có cảm giác bất an, sợ hãi, lo âu, hoặc những mối quan tâm, mọi người thường nói, “Ôi trời, bạn có thấy điều đó không?” và sau đó cảm thấy nó đã biến mất. Đó là một điều tệ. Tại sao lại chỉ tập trung vào vùng nhỏ này của cổ? Tại sao nam giới lại nắm cổ và xoa bóp cổ khi căng thẳng? Đó là điều tồi tệ nhất bạn có thể làm trong các cuộc đàm phán, dấu hiệu rõ ràng là bạn đang thể hiện sự yếu đuối. Ai đó tự tin thì không bao giờ chạm vào cổ. Bạn thậm chí không đến gần cổ. Bạn không thông gió, bởi vì bạn đang nói rằng điều đó đang tác động đến bạn, hành vi thông gió. Đợi đã, khi bạn nói thông gió, bạn đang nói về việc cung cấp không khí cho mình?
    Đúng vậy, nó có thể là- Hành vi thông gió là hành vi của sự yếu đuối, vì nhiệt độ cơ thể của bạn đã thay đổi trong một phần rất nhỏ của giây. Và điều bạn đang tiết lộ là một điều tiêu cực đang tác động đến bạn. Vì vậy, bạn không làm điều đó. Nhưng đây là hành vi, việc chạm vào cổ, che cổ, che chỗ lõm dưới xương ức. Còn có một hành vi khác. Bạn biết đấy, lúc trước chúng ta đã nói về việc chúng ta bị bao vây bởi những kẻ săn mồi. Một trong những hành vi mà chúng ta thực hiện đó là che miệng hoặc đứng yên khi nghe thấy tiếng ồn. Hành vi thứ ba là che cổ. Che cổ, bởi vì những loài mèo lớn luôn nhắm vào cổ. Và bộ não không có một tủ đầy cà vạt. Nó chỉ có khoảng bốn sự lựa chọn. Và bốn hành vi đó rất tinh vi. Đã được chứng minh qua thời gian rằng nếu chúng ta che miệng, che cổ, không di chuyển, chúng khá hiệu quả. Vì vậy chúng ta không cần phải chọn nhiều màu sắc.
    Và một điều khác mà thỉnh thoảng bạn sẽ thấy mọi người làm là ở Florida, qua thời gian, và chúng tôi thực sự đã thấy điều này vào tháng 11 sau cơn bão, mọi người đến xem nhà của họ và che đầu, hai tay ở trên đây. Ôi trời ơi. Tại sao chúng ta lại làm điều đó? Một lần nữa, là do những loài mèo lớn. Đây là những hành vi phản ứng nhanh. Đây là những phương pháp mà đã tồn tại và nói rằng, “Ô không,” đúng không? Bạn có thể nói, “Ờ, chúng ta không còn bị bao vây bởi chúng nữa.” Vâng, hãy đến Ấn Độ. Năm ngoái có 238 vụ tấn công. Nó đang ở trong DNA của chúng ta. Nó được thực hiện vì nhu cầu để giữ cho chúng ta sống sót. Vì vậy, chúng ta có những phản ứng như vậy.
    Dịch đoạn văn sau sang tiếng Việt:
    Nhưng tôi nhìn vào, chắc chắn là tôi nhìn vào môi và cổ như những nơi tốt để thu thập thông tin.
    Tôi vừa nghĩ về lý do tại sao, vâng, bạn giữ đầu của bạn.
    Nhưng bạn cũng giữ đầu của mình khi bạn thấy một cái gì đó bị đổ.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn thấy một tòa nhà bị đổ trong một trận động đất, bạn ngay lập tức.
    Hôm nọ, có một chiếc xe cũ và nó đậu trên một con đường nghiêng và họ quên dựng phanh.
    Và tôi đang xem nó từ từ trượt.
    Và tôi nhận thấy bản thân mình, tôi dạy những thứ này với hai tay ở đây.
    Và không may, nó ở bên kia đường và tôi không thể đến đó nhanh đủ.
    Và nó không gây ra bất kỳ thiệt hại nào.
    Nhưng bạn nhận ra rằng những lối tắt này có mặt vì một lý do.
    Phần lớn công việc bạn thực hiện với tư cách là một đặc vụ FBI là một hình thức đàm phán.
    Và bạn dành rất nhiều thời gian dạy mọi người cách trở thành những người đàm phán giỏi.
    Bạn đã nhắc đến đàm phán một chút trước đó.
    Tôi là một người kinh doanh.
    Tôi thực hiện rất nhiều đàm phán, dù là với khách hàng, nhà cung cấp hay phỏng vấn.
    Bạn biết đấy, tôi đang phỏng vấn mọi người thường xuyên, điều mà tôi coi là một sự đàm phán.
    Làm thế nào tôi có thể cải thiện kỹ năng đàm phán của mình?
    Có những điều gì tôi nên suy nghĩ khi tôi bước vào cuộc đàm phán?
    Vâng, bạn biết đấy, họ đã cảnh báo tôi.
    Bạn hỏi những câu hỏi sâu sắc.
    Và bạn nói đúng.
    Trong FBI, ý tôi là, khi bạn cố gắng thuyết phục ai đó hãy nói cho chúng tôi sự thật và đặt mình vào tình huống nguy hiểm, đó chẳng khác gì một cuộc đàm phán.
    Bạn có thể nhìn nhận nó như một cuộc phỏng vấn.
    Nhưng như bạn đã nói, ngay cả một cuộc trò chuyện, bạn biết đấy, tôi nhìn nhận đàm phán theo cùng cách mà tôi nhìn nhận phỏng vấn, ở dạng đơn giản nhất, đó là giao tiếp hiệu quả với một mục đích.
    Vì vậy, bạn nói, vâng, điều đó rất đơn giản.
    Tôi chưa bao giờ nghe điều đó.
    Vâng, hãy nghĩ về nó.
    Vậy mục đích là gì?
    Được rồi, chúng ta sẽ đến đó trong một phút.
    Hoặc bạn có điều gì đó tôi cần hoặc muốn hoặc điều đó.
    Nhưng phải có giao tiếp và phải có sự hiểu biết về những gì tôi có nghĩa và những gì tôi dự định…và vân vân.
    Vì vậy, đối với tôi, đó là một lời nhắc nhở.
    Khi tôi mới vào FBI, một người già đã nói với tôi rằng, phỏng vấn không phải là về lời thú nhận.
    Và tôi nhìn ông ấy như, cái gì?
    Xin lỗi?
    Ý ông là không phải về lời thú nhận sao?
    Ông ấy nói, bạn sẽ có lời thú nhận.
    Phỏng vấn là về thời gian mặt đối mặt.
    Nếu bạn có thể khiến mọi người nói chuyện với bạn trong hai giờ, ba giờ, bốn giờ.
    Trong một trường hợp, tôi đã phỏng vấn một cá nhân trong 12 giờ.
    Họ sẽ nói với bạn mọi thứ bạn cần biết, nhưng bạn phải giữ họ ở lại trong phòng.
    Vì vậy, tôi luôn coi đàm phán đầu tiên là làm thế nào tôi giao tiếp với bạn theo cách mà bạn sẽ muốn nói chuyện với tôi?
    Bạn sẽ muốn nói chuyện với tôi trong bất kỳ khoảng thời gian nào cần thiết để đến mục đích đó, đó là giao dịch.
    Bây giờ, nếu tôi đang đánh giá bạn vì dịch vụ của bạn hoặc nếu tôi đang đàm phán về giá cả, tôi muốn nghe những gì bạn phải nói và tôi muốn nói và tôi muốn trình bày những gì tôi quan tâm đạt được và sau đó hòa giải hoặc làm việc xung quanh bất kỳ sự khác biệt hoặc vấn đề nào có thể xảy ra.
    Tôi nghĩ khi chúng ta nhìn nhận các cuộc đàm phán theo cách đó, chúng ta có thể nói, vâng, điều đó có nghĩa là tôi phải làm rất nhiều việc trước đó, đó là tôi đang giao tiếp với ai?
    Ai là người tôi sẽ đàm phán?
    Phong cách đàm phán là gì?
    Họ có điềm tĩnh không?
    Họ đến và ném đồ xuống?
    Ý tôi là, tôi đã tham gia vào những cuộc đàm phán mà bên đối tác vào và thực sự bước vào phòng, không nói một lời chào buổi sáng, chỉ ném đồ xuống và nói, tôi muốn nghe những con số.
    Được rồi, vậy thì làm thế nào chúng ta bắt đầu xử lý điều đó?
    Bởi vì một người vào và tỏ ra hung hăng và vân vân, bạn phải đối phó với.
    Bạn sẽ làm gì?
    Bạn có nổi lên sự hung hăng của họ không hay bạn cố gắng kéo họ xuống đến vị trí của bạn?
    Câu hỏi tuyệt vời.
    Điều tồi tệ nhất bạn có thể làm là nổi lên điều đó.
    Bạn bắt đầu thống trị họ bằng cách kiểm soát thời gian.
    Bất kỳ ai kiểm soát thời gian đều kiểm soát.
    Vì vậy, họ vào, họ ném đồ xuống.
    Vì vậy, thường thì, bạn biết đấy, chúng tôi sẽ bắt đầu bằng cách, vâng, chào buổi sáng bạn cũng vậy.
    Vâng, vâng, hãy đi thẳng vào vấn đề.
    Và sau đó cả đội mà tôi đang làm việc đều biết rằng chúng tôi sẽ làm chậm mọi thứ lại.
    Chúng tôi sẽ không làm việc ở tốc độ đó vì nếu bạn làm việc ở tốc độ đó, họ đang kiểm soát.
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi làm chậm mọi thứ lại.
    Và có một số chiến lược.
    Bạn có thể trở nên, đột nhiên, bạn có thể trở nên rất trực quan và nói, được rồi, chúng ta sẽ, bạn biết đấy, viết điều này xuống và chúng ta sẽ đặt nó ở đây.
    Chúng ta sẽ đặt, bạn biết đấy, và sau đó đây là sự khác biệt, bạn biết đấy, có rất nhiều chiến lược.
    Nhưng điều đầu tiên là chúng tôi phải khiến người đó hiểu rằng chúng tôi đàm phán, hy vọng, với tư cách bình đẳng.
    Nhưng nếu cái nhìn nhận luôn là người đó đang đàm phán như một kẻ bắt nạt hoặc luôn nắm quyền, bạn sẽ không bao giờ có sự công bằng.
    Bây giờ, tôi đã có rất nhiều khách hàng đã nói, êm, bạn biết đấy, tôi đã thử tất cả các chiến lược của bạn và, bạn biết đấy, người mà tôi đang giao dịch chỉ là, anh ta thô lỗ.
    Anh ta chỉ là một kẻ bắt nạt.
    Anh ta vào và hành động như, và vì vậy một trong những câu hỏi mà tôi luôn hỏi là, anh ta có phải là nguồn duy nhất không?
    Có phải anh ta hoặc cô ta là nguồn duy nhất, số một?
    Và số hai là bạn sẵn lòng chịu đựng người này bao lâu?
    Bởi vì chúng ta không chú ý đến điều đó.
    Anh ta gây ra cho bạn những cơn đau đầu.
    Bạn không ngủ ngon mỗi khi bạn đến đây.
    Tôi đang nghĩ đến một khách hàng cụ thể.
    Bạn trở về với một cái bụng lo lắng và, bạn biết đấy, bạn sẵn lòng chịu đựng điều đó bao lâu?
    Nếu bạn sẵn lòng chịu đựng điều đó, thì, bạn biết đấy, anh ta sẽ không thay đổi phong cách của mình.
    Vì vậy, bạn vào và chúng tôi thay đổi cách tiếp xúc của chúng tôi.
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi sẽ không để tất cả nhân viên của mình tham gia vào những loại tiêu cực đó.
    Chúng tôi gửi vào người đầu tiên và nói, nhìn, đây là những con số và chúng tôi làm việc với điều đó.
    Nhưng có những cách để xử lý những điều rất độc hại.
    Nhưng chúng tôi không cho phép họ thoát khỏi mọi thứ cũng như không nghĩ rằng họ đang nắm quyền.
    Và chúng tôi làm điều đó theo những cách tinh tế.
    Và chúng tôi có phần làm chệch hướng chương trình nghị sự của họ.
    Có thể là chương trình nghị sự của họ, dựa trên các cuộc họp trước đó, là vào và chỉ ném những thứ này vào chúng tôi một cách rất nhanh chóng. Sau đó, chúng tôi phải điều chỉnh theo điều đó. Vì vậy, cần phải có những chiến lược đã được chuẩn bị để đối phó với điều đó. Một trong những điều công việc của bạn khiến tôi suy nghĩ là tầm quan trọng của việc thực sự, như là, ghi lại mục tiêu của cuộc đàm phán của tôi trước khi tôi bước vào cuộc đàm phán. Nếu không, bạn có thể bị cuốn vào cảm xúc của nó và cảm giác khẩn trương trong khoảnh khắc. Vâng, bạn sẽ không phải là người đầu tiên tìm thấy mình trong một cuộc họp đàm phán. Và đột nhiên, bạn biết đấy, cảm giác như là, thực sự chúng tôi đang đàm phán về điều gì? Và đó là lý do tại sao tôi thích sự đơn giản của việc giao tiếp hiệu quả với một mục đích như một hình thức đàm phán. Bởi vì nhiều lần chúng tôi bước vào các cuộc đàm phán và giám đốc tài chính đang ở đó. Thỉnh thoảng chúng ta vào đó và, bạn biết đấy, trợ lý đầu tiên của bạn cũng luôn có mặt. Nhưng bạn cũng có luật sư trong văn phòng tham dự. Vai trò của họ là gì? Và vai trò của tôi là gì? Bạn biết đấy, điều đơn giản như, bạn sẽ làm gì? Nhìn thẳng về phía trước suốt thời gian luật sư của bạn nói? Hay bạn sẽ nhìn vào anh ấy? Chúng ta biết từ nghiên cứu rằng bằng cách nhìn vào người đang nói ở phía bạn, bạn thực sự làm tăng trọng lượng của những gì anh ấy đang nói. Ở những điểm nhấn mạnh nhất mà khi luật sư đó đưa ra, và bạn đã làm điều này trước đó, bạn muốn tạo dáng chóp tay vì chóp tay là cử chỉ mạnh mẽ nhất mà chúng ta có để truyền đạt sự tự tin. Tạo dáng chóp tay là một cử chỉ nhỏ. Angela Merkel, cựu thủ tướng Đức, đã làm điều này rất nhiều. Bạn thấy Musk cũng làm điều này rất nhiều. Bạn thấy Steve Jobs đã từng làm như vậy, có rất nhiều hình ảnh về Steve Jobs thực hiện điều đó. Nhưng, bạn biết đấy, bạn phải giữ điều đó cho thời điểm khi bạn muốn nhấn mạnh. Và điều tồi tệ nhất bạn có thể làm là chỉ ngồi đó yên lặng. Trên thực tế, chúng tôi có nghiên cứu và nó được gọi là thí nghiệm khuôn mặt bất động. Và điều tồi tệ nhất mà bạn có thể làm là ngồi trong một cuộc họp và giữ khuôn mặt bất động. Bạn bị coi là một mối đe dọa. Bạn bị coi là kém đáng tin cậy. Bạn bị coi là không quan trọng. Góc miệng của bạn uốn xuống. Tôi lăn mắt sang bên phải, Stephen. Đó là cách bạn bị cảm nhận. Và đó là điều đã xảy ra. Các thí nghiệm, được thực hiện đầu tiên trên trẻ em, phát hiện rằng nếu bạn lấy một đứa trẻ và thực hiện thí nghiệm đó, nếu bạn nhìn đi rồi nhìn lại và mỉm cười, đứa trẻ sẽ vui vẻ. Bạn có thể làm điều đó vài lần. Nhưng trong lần cuối cùng, bạn quay đi và giữ mặt rất yên. Các em bé trở nên không thể kiểm soát. Chúng có những cơn phát điên. Chúng thực sự gặp rắc rối vì điều đó. Vì vậy, người thực hiện thí nghiệm đã nói, vâng, nhưng độ tuổi nào cho chúng tôi? Họ quyết định thực hiện thí nghiệm với người lớn. Người lớn cũng làm điều tương tự. Nếu bạn và tôi đang nói chuyện và chúng ta trao đổi ánh mắt, điều tồi tệ nhất tôi có thể làm là ngồi yên. Bạn thấy, bạn cảm thấy khó chịu. Vâng. Và những gì bộ não cảm nhận là một mối đe dọa. Và bạn mất đi sự đáng tin cậy. Bởi vì bạn không thể đọc được suy nghĩ của người này theo cả hai cách. Tôi thà bạn không hài lòng còn hơn ít nhất tôi có thể gói gọn điều đó trong một chiếc hộp. Vâng, đó là một cách để nhìn nhận nó. Tôi không chắc rằng ai đó biết lý do chính xác cho điều đó. Nhưng những gì chúng ta hiểu là khuôn mặt bất động, mà nếu bạn tham gia một cuộc gọi ảo, bạn muốn gật đầu, bạn muốn nghiêng đầu, bạn muốn thực hiện những cử chỉ khác nhau. Nhưng điều tồi tệ nhất bạn có thể làm là giữ yên. Và sau đó trong các cuộc đàm phán, khi bạn đang nói với đội ngũ và nói rằng, hãy nhìn, khi chúng ta vào đó, bạn biết đấy, tôi không muốn ai chỉ ngồi đó. Tôi muốn có biểu cảm, và khi ai đó đang nói, bạn biết đấy, bạn đang nhìn họ theo cùng một cách mà phía bên kia sẽ làm. Nhưng bạn phải lên kế hoạch. Bây giờ, điều khác mà tôi thấy ở những người đàm phán, một điều mà tôi đã làm trong FBI là tôi luôn lên kế hoạch cho các cuộc phỏng vấn của mình một cách tỉ mỉ. Ai sẽ vào phòng trước? Ai sẽ nói gì? Tôi sẽ ngồi đâu? Ai được mời nước và khi nào? Bởi vì tôi cần kiểm soát. Ai sẽ nói gì? Đây là những điều mà mọi người không nghĩ đến. Nhưng ở mức độ với những người mà tôi giao tiếp, bạn phải có một lượng lợi thế nhất định. Bạn phải có một mức độ đòn bẩy tâm lý nhất định để nói, hãy nhìn, bạn có thể là nhà sản xuất lớn nhất thế giới của cái này, và tôi chỉ mới bắt đầu. Nhưng tôi không ở dưới đây. Vì vậy, tôi sẽ rất trân trọng nếu bạn bắt đầu đánh giá tôi, và tôi làm điều đó bằng cách thực hiện một số điều theo cách mà tôi bước vào. Bạn nắm quyền kiểm soát tình huống, và nó trông rất đẹp mắt, ô, thật đẹp phải không? Anh ấy đang mời tôi một thứ gì đó để uống. Hoặc trợ lý hoặc ai đó nói, bạn có muốn uống trà không? Bạn muốn nó như thế nào? Và các thứ khác. Và những gì chúng ta thực sự chứng kiến là sự chuyển hóa của việc bạn giờ đã trở thành người thống trị bằng cách trở thành hình mẫu điển hình, hình ảnh của người cha hoặc người mẹ. Bởi vì bạn đang đề nghị một cái gì đó. Bởi vì bạn đang đề nghị nó. Và bạn đang kiểm soát thức ăn và tâm trí. Bạn biết đấy, mọi người thường tự hỏi, vậy sao lại ở Stockholm, Thụy Điển vào những năm 70 mà hội chứng Stockholm lại phát triển nhanh chóng như vậy với những kẻ cướp ngân hàng, nơi họ có ảnh hưởng rất lớn đến các nạn nhân của họ đến mức trong vòng vài giờ, các nạn nhân đã đứng ra bảo vệ những kẻ cướp ngân hàng. Điều đó rất đơn giản. Họ đã trở thành hình mẫu người cha, và những con tin đã trở thành những đứa trẻ. Vì vậy, tôi thực sự không biết câu chuyện đó. Điều xảy ra là có một vụ cướp ngân hàng ở Stockholm, và những kẻ cướp ngân hàng đã vào, giữ những nạn nhân làm con tin. Cuối cùng, họ đã được giải cứu. Nhưng những gì họ phát hiện là trong vòng vài giờ, các nạn nhân đã đứng lên bảo vệ các tội phạm. Và nó đã được gọi là hội chứng Stockholm. Và điều mà nó cho chúng ta thấy là những kẻ cướp đã trở thành hình mẫu của bậc cha mẹ, và những con tin đã trở thành những đứa trẻ. Và trong một khoảnh khắc, họ đã trở nên phục tùng. Có phải điều đó cũng xảy ra trong các vụ bạo hành gia đình không? Vâng. Bạn đã nói đúng.
    Bạn đã làm rất tốt.
    Bạn là người đầu tiên nhận ra điều đó ngay lập tức.
    Và đó là lý do tại sao bạn thường thấy điều này trong các vụ lạm dụng gia đình.
    Và bạn nói, làm thế nào cô ấy có thể bị đánh đập như vậy?
    Cô ấy có thể bênh vực anh ta như thế nào, thường là trường hợp?
    Và bạn nhận ra, ôi trời ơi, chúng ta có như một hội chứng Stockholm, nơi mà anh ta là người chu cấp.
    Anh ta là người duy nhất làm việc hoặc cái này hoặc cái kia.
    Nhưng, bạn biết đấy, quay lại vấn đề thương thuyết, tôi nghĩ đây là một trong những điều mà tôi luôn nhấn mạnh rằng nếu bạn tham gia vào các cuộc thương thuyết, thì bạn phải được đối xử ít nhất như một người bình đẳng.
    Và ngay khi mọi người bắt đầu nhìn bạn với ánh mắt khinh thường, điều đó sẽ tạo ra một cuộc trò chuyện rất khó khăn.
    Vì vậy, khi bạn suy nghĩ về việc bước vào phòng và tất cả những người đang ngồi ở đó, nếu bạn bước vào phòng để phỏng vấn một kẻ khủng bố, bạn có cố gắng bước vào phòng trước tiên hay bạn cố gắng bước vào phòng sau cùng?
    Bạn có gửi đội của bạn vào trước không, sau đó bạn mới xuất hiện sau?
    Và bạn đang nghĩ gì về vị trí ngồi?
    Đúng. Vậy một trong những điều mà tôi luôn nhấn mạnh là tôi sẽ bước vào phòng trước.
    Vậy họ sẽ đã ở trong đó rồi?
    Không, không, không. Chúng tôi sẽ bước vào phòng.
    Ôi, với họ.
    Với họ.
    Sau đó, tôi sẽ chỉ bảo họ chờ một chút ở đó.
    Tôi sẽ mở cửa. Tôi sẽ nhìn vào và nói, ôi, chỉ muốn chắc chắn rằng phòng này an toàn và không có ai ở đây.
    Bạn biết đấy, tôi đã từng bước vào phòng khi có người bên trong.
    Điều đó bắt đầu thiết lập sức mạnh của tôi.
    Và sau đó tôi sẽ nói, tại sao bạn không ngồi ở đó?
    Bạn biết đấy, mọi người hỏi tôi, tại sao, bạn biết đấy, tại sao bạn lại tốt với những tên tội phạm này?
    Đầu tiên, tôi quay lại điều mà một người đã nói.
    Tôi muốn có thời gian gặp mặt trực tiếp.
    Tôi không quan tâm đến những gì cần làm để có được thời gian gặp mặt trực tiếp.
    Nhưng tôi cũng muốn nắm quyền.
    Và nếu việc tốt với anh ta và chỉ vào chiếc ghế nice đó đạt được điều đó, thì quá tốt cho tôi.
    Và sau đó tôi luôn cố gắng ngồi theo cách mà tôi ngồi cao hơn.
    Giờ, trong trường hợp của Ramsey, chúng tôi đã thực sự có phòng trước và chúng tôi thay đổi nội thất sao cho tôi luôn ngồi cao hơn khoảng một inch hoặc hai inch so với anh ta.
    Anh ta không bao giờ nhận ra.
    Ramsey là người có điếu thuốc lá run rẩy.
    Run rẩy.
    Cuối cùng, chúng tôi đã thực hiện 37 cuộc phỏng vấn.
    Và tất cả đều diễn ra trong các phòng khách sạn, chủ yếu ở khu vực Orlando.
    Chúng tôi đã vào trước và sắp xếp nội thất hoặc đưa nội thất vào.
    Nhưng tôi luôn ngồi cao hơn anh ta.
    Anh ta không bao giờ hiểu điều đó.
    Anh ta luôn ngồi trên ghế sofa, mà bằng cách nào đó đã bị cắt bớt một chút nên lúc nào cũng thấp hơn một chút.
    Và vì vậy anh ta luôn phải nhìn lên chúng tôi một cách nhẹ nhàng.
    Và sau đó chúng tôi kiểm soát thời gian khi nào chúng tôi sẽ nghỉ ngơi.
    Và tôi, bạn biết đấy, tôi luôn chú ý và tôi sẽ nói, bạn có muốn uống gì không?
    Tôi nói, ôi, chủ đề này thật tuyệt.
    Tại sao không nghỉ ngơi ngay bây giờ và bạn có thể uống gì đó, và sau đó chúng ta có thể tiếp tục.
    Điều mà anh ta không nhận ra là tôi đang thiết lập quyền kiểm soát đối với anh ta bằng cách định đoạt.
    Sẽ là không, bạn biết đấy, chắc chắn rằng thính giả của bạn có thể nói, ôi, điều đó thì mang tính thao túng.
    Vâng, nhưng trong giai đoạn giao dịch, không khác gì bạn nói với đội của mình, tôi cần nghỉ ngơi ngay bây giờ và đi đến phòng vệ sinh.
    Được thôi, nghỉ một lát.
    Tôi không nghĩ nhiều về điều đó.
    Nhưng theo thời gian, điều gì sẽ xảy ra là anh ta bắt đầu nhường lại nhiều sự mạnh mẽ mà anh ta muốn thể hiện.
    Anh ta sẽ rất muốn nắm quyền, nhưng tôi không cho phép điều đó.
    Và đôi khi anh ta sẽ nói, tôi có thể cần nghỉ để hút thuốc ngay bây giờ.
    Và tôi sẽ nói, đợi một chút, bởi vì điều bạn vừa nói thật sự thú vị.
    Và người bạn đồng hành của tôi, bà Terry Moody, tôi rất yêu mến bà.
    Bà là một đối tác tuyệt vời.
    Bà nhìn tôi như thể, thật à, bạn sẽ đẩy nó xa hơn 1 chút nữa?
    Nhưng điều đó đã hoạt động đến mức, nghĩa là đây là một gã có số điện thoại của luật sư bên mình mọi lúc, và anh ta không bao giờ dùng nó.
    Bạn đã đề cập đến độ cao của những chiếc ghế.
    Độ cao có ý nghĩa gì trong ngữ cảnh này?
    Bởi vì tôi cũng đang nghĩ về Zoom, và điều thú vị về Zoom bây giờ, chúng ta đã nói về điều này trước khi bắt đầu ghi âm, và thực tế là hầu hết các cuộc trò chuyện của chúng ta bây giờ diễn ra trên mạng, là chúng ta thường không nghĩ nhiều về độ cao.
    Và đôi khi tôi có cuộc gọi với một trong những đồng nghiệp hoặc đối tác của mình, và tôi thường hỏi họ trước khi khách hàng hoặc bất kỳ ai mà chúng tôi đang giao dịch tham gia cuộc gọi để điều chỉnh độ cao, bởi vì họ đang nhìn xuống ống kính, hoặc mắt họ đang nhìn lên ống kính, mà tôi nghĩ cũng là không tối ưu.
    Một điều tốt, có một thuật ngữ tốt, có nhiều điều để nói về độ cao, cũng như có một lợi ích về sắc đẹp, đúng không?
    Vì vậy, lợi ích về sắc đẹp, và bạn có thể tìm kiếm điều này, lợi ích về sắc đẹp, được nghiên cứu rất kỹ, về cơ bản nói rằng bạn sẽ kiếm được 8% mỗi năm trong phần còn lại của cuộc đời, chỉ cần bạn đẹp trai.
    Đó là lợi ích về sắc đẹp, bạn có thể lên mạng và xem tất cả các nghiên cứu và thống kê đi kèm với nó.
    Nhưng cũng có một lợi ích về chiều cao, và điều này là phổ quát.
    Nếu bạn nhìn vào người Mỹ cao 6 feet 2 inches, tức là cao hơn một chút so với tôi, chiếm khoảng 3% dân số, trừ khi bạn đến các công ty Fortune 500, và sau đó họ chiếm 39% tất cả các CEO cao 6’2″.
    Ôi, điều đó, bạn tôi, là một sự gia tăng đáng kể.
    Và bạn nói, những người cao hơn có thông minh hơn không?
    Không, không, điều đó liên quan đến lợi ích của việc cao.
    Có một lợi tức, vì vậy chúng ta thường thấy điều đó trên toàn thế giới.
    Từ “lợi tức,” đối với bất kỳ ai không biết, về cơ bản có nghĩa là một lợi ích hoặc một phần thưởng, có thể nghĩ đến như thế.
    Một lợi thế.
    Bạn có một lợi thế.
    Vì vậy, với Ramsey, lợi ích của việc bạn làm cho anh ta cao hơn một chút là gì?
    Bạn đang làm gì vậy, Tim?
    Bạn đang lấy đi sức mạnh của anh ta một chút, làm cho bạn trở nên mạnh mẽ hơn?
    Tôi phải làm như vậy bởi vì anh ta có tất cả quyền lực.
    Anh ta là người gián điệp.
    Anh ta có tất cả chứng cứ trong đầu hoặc trong tay mình, hoặc người Nga có nó.
    Người Nga sẽ không đưa nó cho chúng tôi.
    Họ là kẻ thù.
    Họ đã nói, thật không may, các bạn ạ, nhưng chúng tôi đã có tất cả bí mật của các bạn.
    Họ có quá nhiều bí mật đến nỗi họ đo lường bằng trọng lượng, không chỉ bằng số trang.
    Vấn đề khác mà tôi đang gặp phải là chỉ số IQ của anh ấy.
    Anh ấy có chỉ số IQ cao thứ hai mà quân đội từng ghi nhận kể từ Thế chiến II.
    Anh ấy có thể nói về bất kỳ chủ đề nào, từ vật lý lượng tử cho đến bất cứ điều gì khác.
    Khi bạn có trí thông minh vượt trội, trong trường hợp của anh ấy, điều đó là đúng, hoặc bạn đang đối phó với ai đó,
    hãy nói, là một bệnh nhân narcissist ác tính.
    Họ chiếm khoảng 2% dân số, nhưng khoảng 20% giám đốc điều hành.
    Vì vậy, bệnh nhân narcissist ác tính của bạn là người đánh giá quá cao bản thân và có xu hướng đánh giá thấp người khác,
    và trong trường hợp của tôi với anh ấy, anh ấy có những đặc điểm narcissist, mà tôi có thể đối phó,
    nhưng trí thông minh vượt trội của anh ấy thì khiến tôi sững sờ, và anh ấy có khả năng nhớ hoàn hảo.
    Vì vậy, theo một cách nào đó, điều đó thật đáng sợ, vì tất cả những gì anh ấy phải làm là tự vận chuyển đến một quốc gia khác,
    và anh ấy có thể bán tất cả những bí mật mà anh ấy đã ghi nhớ.
    Vì vậy, tôi phải đóng một vai trò nhất định, nhưng tôi cũng không thể để anh ấy nắm quyền điều tra,
    và không phải là điều mà đã đặt Anh, Đức, tất cả các nước Tây Âu vào nguy hiểm,
    cũng như Canada và Hoa Kỳ.
    Tôi không thể chịu nổi, chính phủ Hoa Kỳ không thể cho phép anh ấy tỏ ra hời hợt với những kiến thức mà anh ấy biết,
    đặc biệt là khi chúng tôi biết rằng anh ấy đã xâm phạm các mã lệnh hạt nhân.
    Bạn có phiền nếu tôi tạm ngưng cuộc trò chuyện này một chút không?
    Tôi muốn nói về nhà tài trợ của chương trình hôm nay, đó là Shopify.
    Tôi luôn tin rằng chi phí lớn nhất trong kinh doanh không phải là thất bại,
    mà là thời gian bạn lãng phí khi cố gắng đưa ra quyết định.
    Thời gian dành cho việc do dự, suy nghĩ quá nhiều, hoặc chờ đợi thời điểm đúng.
    Khi tôi bắt đầu công ty đầu tiên của mình ở tuổi 20, tôi không có kinh nghiệm và không có tiền.
    Điều tôi có là một ý tưởng và sẵn sàng hành động nhanh, và điều đó đã tạo ra sự khác biệt.
    Nếu bạn đang nghĩ đến việc bắt đầu kinh doanh riêng của mình,
    Shopify làm cho toàn bộ quy trình này dễ dàng hơn rất nhiều.
    Với hàng nghìn mẫu tùy chỉnh, bạn không cần kỹ năng lập trình hay thiết kế,
    bạn chỉ cần sẵn sàng bắt đầu.
    Shopify kết nối tất cả các kênh bán hàng của bạn từ trang web đến mạng xã hội,
    và nó cũng xử lý thanh toán, vận chuyển và thuế,
    để bạn có thể tập trung vào việc tiến về phía trước và phát triển doanh nghiệp của mình.
    Nếu bạn đã sẵn sàng bắt đầu, hãy truy cập shopify.com slash Bartlett,
    và đăng ký giai đoạn thử nghiệm 1 bảng Anh mỗi tháng.
    Đó là shopify.com slash Bartlett.
    Còn về tư thế thì sao?
    Bởi vì đó là một cách để làm cho bản thân cao hơn.
    Vâng.
    Có bất kỳ dấu hiệu nào trong tư thế của ai đó không,
    và tư thế của chúng ta có quan trọng đến mức nào trong việc tạo ra ấn tượng khác biệt?
    Vâng, chắc chắn rồi.
    Không chỉ là tư thế, mà còn là lãnh thổ.
    Vì vậy, tôi nhìn vào tư thế như, bạn biết không, khi chúng ta trông tự tin, vai thả lỏng, nhịp thở của chúng ta.
    Đối với tôi, tư thế bắt đầu từ bộ não, cách chúng ta bình tĩnh trong nhịp thở.
    Tôi lại ở Valencia tại sự kiện này, và một phụ nữ đến và nói với tôi,
    bạn sắp ra sân khấu, làm sao bạn không thấy lo lắng?
    Và tôi đã nói, thực ra, tôi đang lo lắng.
    Tôi chỉ đang giấu nó đi.
    Tôi hành động như thể tôi đang kiểm soát, nhưng tôi đã học cách làm điều đó,
    bởi vì bạn không muốn trông giống như một đặc vụ FBI lo lắng.
    Tin tôi đi.
    Bạn muốn trông mát mẻ, bình tĩnh và tự tin.
    Trong các cuộc đàm phán, bạn không muốn trông cần thiết.
    Bạn không muốn trông tuyệt vọng.
    Và cùng một lúc, bạn không muốn xuất hiện như bạn là người thờ ơ.
    Và đôi khi thái độ, tư thế, những cử chỉ, tổng thể của nó có rất nhiều ý nghĩa.
    Bây giờ, bạn phải nhớ rằng, nhiều nhà kinh doanh thành công mà tôi gặp đều thực sự thuộc quang phổ, phải không?
    Vì vậy, quang phổ tự kỷ.
    Và họ không tạo nhiều liên hệ mắt.
    Họ có thể có những hành vi không đều.
    Tôi có một người mà tôi làm việc cùng có hội chứng Asperger, và đôi khi anh ấy có những cử động đột ngột.
    Vì vậy, có rất nhiều sự khó chịu mà tôi thấy từ người khác trong việc đọc anh ấy.
    Tôi không có vấn đề gì.
    Tôi chỉ thấy rằng, được rồi, đây là những hành vi bình thường của anh ấy, và chúng tôi thích nghi.
    Nhưng bạn có thể tìm ra rất nhiều điều về một người.
    Và khi bạn đã đầu tư vào những điều, bạn đang thực hiện sự thận trọng của mình, và bạn đang nói chuyện với mọi người.
    Vâng, bạn có thể nhìn vào con số cả ngày.
    Nhưng bạn cũng đang nhìn vào ngôn ngữ cơ thể và nói, bạn biết không, họ có đang truyền đạt sự tự tin hay không, hoặc họ đang truyền đạt nhu cầu, mong mỏi, hoặc bất kỳ sự yếu đuối nào?
    Tôi vừa đang suy ngẫm về một vài cuộc phỏng vấn mà tôi đã tham gia gần đây.
    Chúng tôi đã phỏng vấn cho một vai trò rất, rất cao cấp.
    Và có hai ứng viên ở giai đoạn cuối.
    Và tôi chỉ đang suy ngẫm, như bạn đã nói, một trong những ứng viên ở giai đoạn cuối lại rất bình tĩnh và ngồi lùi lại trong ghế của họ.
    Còn ứng viên kia thì lại rất ngả về phía trước.
    Và khi suy ngẫm lại, ứng viên thứ hai có lẽ đã khao khát công việc này nhiều hơn.
    Nhưng ứng viên đầu tiên thì có lẽ có kinh nghiệm hơn, tự tin hơn, và có giá trị bản thân cao hơn.
    Và khả năng của họ để rất thoải mái trong môi trường đó, và gần như chiếm giữ ghế trong phòng hội đồng của tôi, thực sự cho tôi cảm giác muốn họ hơn.
    Bởi vì họ đang ra tín hiệu cho tôi rằng họ có nhiều lựa chọn.
    Họ không bị đe dọa.
    Họ không sợ hãi.
    Họ không lo lắng về cơ hội này.
    Bạn biết đấy, đó là một quan sát thú vị, Stephen.
    Và thật tốt khi bạn nhận thấy sự khác biệt đó.
    Một trong những điều mà tôi tìm kiếm là, vai trò của họ sẽ là gì?
    Tôi không quan tâm rằng ai đó cảm thấy lo lắng.
    Chính bản thân tôi, ngay từ đầu, xuất thân từ một gia đình khiêm tốn, cũng thường cảm thấy lo lắng.
    Tôi có xu hướng tập trung vào những điều mà phần lớn tổ chức không đưa vào kế hoạch để tìm kiếm.
    Một trong số đó là giải quyết vấn đề.
    Hãy cho tôi một danh sách về những vấn đề mà bạn đã giải quyết.
    Hầu hết mọi người, khi thuê, đều không bao giờ hỏi câu hỏi đó.
    Họ nói, bạn biết đấy, tôi có thể sử dụng Excel.
    Tôi biết Microsoft.
    Thật tuyệt.
    Xin hãy nói cho tôi biết những vấn đề bạn đã giải quyết ở công việc trước của mình.
    Và, bạn biết đấy, bạn đã làm điều đó hiệu quả như thế nào? Làm thế nào bạn biết họ đã giải quyết được vấn đề hay họ thuộc về một nhóm mà người khác đã giải quyết vấn đề đó? Bởi vì một trong những điều mà tôi đã nói, bạn biết đấy, hãy tìm kiếm, đó là số lượng trường hợp mà họ kể và cách mà họ mô tả nó. Bởi vì điều thú vị là, người giải quyết vấn đề đi vào chi tiết và cảm thấy cảm xúc của người đang kể câu chuyện. Họ chỉ chuyển tải nó, chỉ chuyển tải nó, nhưng không biết cảm xúc đi kèm với việc giải quyết nó.
    Vậy nên khi bạn, khi đứa trẻ nhỏ đó cuối cùng tìm ra cách, bạn biết đấy, bạn đưa cho chúng một cái khóa khó, mà phải để mọi thứ đi theo cách này hay cách kia và sau đó cái khóa nhỏ đó mở ra. Khi chúng quay lại và nói với bạn điều đó, bạn thấy hành vi không bị trọng lực cản trở, sự nâng cao của lông mày, ánh mắt sáng và nói, “Tôi đã giải quyết được.” “Tôi đã giải quyết được.” “Tôi đã vào trong đó.” Vâng. Vấn đề, người chỉ đang kể cho bạn câu chuyện này thì không biết cảm xúc đi kèm với nó.
    Một điều nữa mà bạn biết đấy, mà tôi tìm kiếm, và có thể họ sẽ lo lắng hoặc gì đó, đó là, họ quan sát tốt đến mức nào? Đây là câu hỏi duy nhất đã cứu sống rất nhiều công ty. Khi tôi nói, hãy chắc chắn rằng từ bây giờ bạn hỏi, “Bạn quan sát tốt đến mức nào?” Họ sẽ nói, “À, quan sát cái gì?” “Mọi thứ quan trọng.” “Con người, sự kiện, cơ hội.” Đúng. Nếu bạn đến với tôi và nói, “À, tôi có thể lập trình cái này.” Được rồi. Thật tuyệt. Nhưng trong vị trí mà bạn sẽ ở, bạn sẽ quản lý con người. Bạn quan sát con người tốt đến mức nào? Điều tuyệt vời về những công ty tìm kiếm điều này là, được rồi. Khi bạn đi và bạn xem công ty con của bạn. Bạn đang tìm kiếm cái gì? Bạn đang quan sát cái gì? Vâng, khi tôi nhìn vào sổ sách, còn thái độ của mọi người thì sao? Mọi người có hài lòng không? Họ có hạnh phúc không? Hay họ đều trông như thể bị táo bón? Ý tôi là, tôi đã vào những công ty mà ngay lúc tôi bước vào, tôi đã nói, “Ôi, trời, bạn có vấn đề quản lý ở đây.” Và gã đó hỏi, “Ai đã nói với bạn?” Tôi nói, “À, bạn biết đấy, tôi sẽ phải ngu ngốc lắm mới không nhận ra rằng tất cả những người này đang đi qua với cái đầu cúi thấp, không ai giao tiếp bằng mắt. Không ai, họ đi qua nhau trong tàu điện ngầm mà không nói chuyện với nhau. Bạn có vấn đề quản lý ở đây.” Và, bạn biết đấy, như thể họ đã tuyển dụng cho kỹ năng này. Nhưng liệu đó có thật sự là những gì bạn cần khi bạn thực sự cần một người quan sát tuyệt vời?
    Còn sự tự tin thì sao? Đây có phải là thứ mà bạn sinh ra đã có? Hay bạn nghĩ rằng sự tự tin có thể được rèn luyện vào một người nào đó không? Tôi nghĩ sự tự tin hoàn toàn có thể được rèn luyện. Xuất phát từ Cuba, nơi mà chúng tôi đã mất mọi thứ, đến đây với tư cách là một người tị nạn, không có gì cả. Và rồi đột nhiên, FBI đã yêu cầu tôi trở thành, ý tôi là, tôi không nộp đơn xin FBI. FBI thực sự đã đến và yêu cầu tôi nộp đơn. Và rồi đột nhiên tôi nói, “Các bạn có nghiêm túc không? Hệt như, bạn biết đấy, tôi 23 tuổi. Bạn biết đấy, tôi vừa mới học cạo râu và không có chút tự tin nào.” Và họ dạy bạn cách tự tin. Bạn có thể dạy sự tự tin. Và điều tôi nói với mọi người là cách dễ nhất để học sự tự tin là hãy tự tin về một điều gì đó. Tôi không quan tâm nếu bạn xếp giấy tốt hơn bất kỳ ai khác. Tôi không quan tâm nếu đó là cách bạn dọn giường, bất kỳ điều nhỏ nhặt nào. Hãy cho tôi thấy rằng bạn tự tin. Hãy cho tôi thấy rằng điều đó tốt hơn bất kỳ ai khác. Và ngay khi bạn có thể tự tin về một điều gì đó, bây giờ bạn có thể tự tin về hai điều. Sau đó bạn có thể tự tin về ba điều. Những điều vô lý mà tôi thường thấy mọi người nói, “Chà, chỉ cần vào đây và hãy tự tin.” Tôi nghĩ điều đó thật vô lý. Tôi nghĩ bạn phải học và cơ thể bạn phải học cách tự tin về một điều gì đó. Bạn biết đấy, với tôi, tôi tự tin khi chơi bóng đá, được không? Tôi nhanh nhẹn. Tôi có thể làm một số điều nhất định. Tôi tự tin về điều đó. Tôi biết rằng trong bóng rổ, tôi có thể ném một quả ba điểm, được không? Tự tin về điều đó, nhưng không tự tin về nhiều điều khác. Để ở trong một phòng đầy các giám đốc điều hành, tôi nhớ khi tôi không có tự tin. Vậy làm cách nào để tôi làm việc về điều đó? Bạn không thể, trừ khi bạn là một diễn viên hàng đầu thế giới, bạn không thể bước vào một nơi và đột nhiên giả bộ tự tin. Tôi nói với mọi người, hãy học cách tự tin về một điều. Và đôi khi nó là kiến thức. Tôi luôn, không có cuộc họp nào mà tôi không tìm hiểu kỹ về chủ đề đó. Nếu bạn muốn đạt được sự tự tin, hãy biết tất cả những gì bạn có thể về một chủ đề cụ thể. Và điều đó mang lại cho bạn rất nhiều sự tự tin vĩ đại. Và tôi đã thấy những người trẻ mới ra trường ngồi ở đó, bạn biết đấy, khuỷu tay họ khép lại, họ trông gần như nhút nhát, họ lo lắng, họ nhìn xung quanh liên tục, họ không biết nhìn đâu. Và, bạn biết đấy, và tôi, và tôi nói với họ, hãy biết chủ đề của bạn, hãy biết chủ đề của bạn. Bởi vì ngay khi họ bắt đầu nói về điều đó, họ bắt đầu nở rộ và, và, và thay đổi.
    Vì vậy, năng lực trong một lĩnh vực hoặc vertical cụ thể tạo ra sự tự tin, mà sau đó lan tỏa. Đúng. Và, và đó là điều quân đội, trong, bạn biết đấy, quân đội, giống như quân đội Anh, đó là điều mà họ, họ đưa những người trẻ, 17, 18, 19 tuổi. Và họ nói, “Bạn biết đấy, chúng tôi sẽ biến bạn thành một chiến binh.” Ừ, làm thế nào? Bằng cách chạy, bằng cách khiến bạn trèo lên sợi dây đó, bằng cách làm bất kỳ điều gì mà bạn có thể ra ngoài và cảm thấy tự tin. Bạn đã nói trong một video mà tôi đã xem trên Wired về nhiều cách khác nhau mà chúng ta có thể thể hiện và trở nên tự tin hơn và thể hiện sự tự tin. Một trong số đó thực sự là nhìn vào những người lãnh đạo trong cuộc sống của bạn, những người có sự tự tin và cố gắng sao chép một số hành vi tự tin đó. Đúng. Cái khác là về giọng nói của bạn. Sử dụng giọng nói sâu hơn và đừng lên cao ở cuối câu như thể đó là một câu hỏi. Đúng.
    Xin hãy để tôi nói về những điều đó.
    Đừng cố gắng tái tạo những gì đã thành công.
    Một người tự tin không cần phải nói nhanh và cũng không nói lớn.
    Đúng vậy.
    Tôi còn nhớ lần bắt giữ đầu tiên mà tôi thực hiện và tôi đã nói, dừng lại, đây là FBI.
    Giọng của tôi lúc đó, không ai chịu dừng lại.
    Không ai, không ai cả.
    Và những người đi cùng tôi nói, Joe, bạn cần phải làm việc với giọng nói của mình.
    Bạn cần có một giọng nói lệnh.
    À, giọng lệnh thì phải đi xuống.
    Như thế nào?
    Như, dừng lại ngay đó.
    Tôi sẽ cho bạn một ví dụ.
    Bạn nói với hầu hết các giám đốc điều hành và bạn nói, không, điều đó không thể chấp nhận được.
    Nó quá cao.
    “Không” luôn được nói xuống.
    Không.
    Chúng ta sẽ… không.
    Nghe như một câu hoàn chỉnh.
    Bạn có cho họ thực hành nói “không” không?
    Tất nhiên rồi.
    Tôi đã làm điều đó trong suốt 10 năm.
    Hàng năm vào tháng 2, người mà Brian Hall, người đã khuyến khích tôi viết một trong những cuốn sách của mình mang tên “Louder Than Words”, đã mời tôi đến Harvard.
    Và tôi sẽ không bao giờ quên, tôi có một lớp học hoàn chỉnh tại Harvard.
    Tôi nghĩ có 76 sinh viên.
    Và tôi đã cho tất cả họ nói từ “không, không, không”
    Giọng nói hạ thấp xuống và thấp hơn.
    Anh ấy đã bước ra ngoài để nhận cuộc gọi.
    Khi anh ấy quay lại, anh ấy nghĩ tôi đang có một giáo phái nào đó.
    Tôi nói, không, Brian.
    Tôi chỉ đang dạy họ cách nói đúng, vì đây sẽ là những giám đốc điều hành trong tương lai
    chứ không phải là nói “không, không, không, không, không”.
    Bây giờ, điều đó nghe như một câu hoàn chỉnh.
    Không.
    Không.
    Điều đó không phải cách mà nó sẽ vận hành.
    Và luôn luôn phải hạ xuống.
    Vì vậy, chúng tôi làm việc với các từ.
    Quan trọng hơn, chúng tôi làm việc với các cử chỉ, bạn chiếm bao nhiêu không gian, vì không gian mà bạn chiếm, nếu bạn ở đây.
    Giống như một thứ gì đó bị co lại và chặt chẽ.
    Bạn bị co lại.
    Bạn muốn, bạn không muốn quá mức.
    Bạn không muốn trông như một anh hề, nhưng bạn, bạn, bạn muốn có không gian mà bạn
    được quyền sở hữu.
    Và sau đó tôi nghĩ rất quan trọng để học cách nói theo nhịp điệu.
    Khi bạn nói có nhịp điệu, và tôi làm điều đó, mọi người sẽ lắng nghe.
    Họ có thời gian để xử lý những gì bạn đang nói, nhưng họ cũng có thể gắn kết cảm xúc đi kèm với nó.
    Ai đã nói theo nhịp điệu?
    Churchill.
    Martin Luther King.
    Tôi có một giấc mơ rằng một ngày nào đó quốc gia này sẽ trỗi dậy và sống đúng với ý nghĩa thực sự của tín điều của nó.
    Chúng ta cho những sự thật này là hiển nhiên rằng tất cả mọi người được sinh ra bình đẳng.
    Mạnh mẽ.
    Bạn có thể tưởng tượng nếu ông ấy đứng ở đó và nói, tôi có một giấc mơ mà một ngày nào đó, nó giống như
    ai sẽ lắng nghe điều đó?
    Nhưng ông ấy là một người thuyết giáo, và ông ấy biết cách điều khiển một khán giả.
    Và khi Churchill nói, chúng ta sẽ chiến đấu với chúng trên không, chúng ta sẽ chiến đấu với chúng trên bãi biển,
    chúng ta sẽ chiến đấu trên các sân hạ cánh, chúng ta sẽ chiến đấu ở các cánh đồng và trên các con phố, chúng ta sẽ
    chiến đấu trên các ngọn đồi, chúng ta sẽ không bao giờ đầu hàng.
    Nhịp điệu không chỉ quyến rũ, mà còn mạnh mẽ.
    Và rất nhiều giám đốc điều hành không biết cách sử dụng điều đó.
    Họ chỉ, tôi đã đến các bài thuyết trình nơi mọi người chỉ buông lỏng.
    Họ thậm chí không nghe những gì đang được nói.
    Và rồi ai đó bắt đầu nói với họ bằng nhịp điệu và nói, đây là đề nghị của chúng tôi.
    Nó không phải là cuối cùng.
    Nhưng trong thời điểm này, nó là đề nghị tốt nhất của chúng tôi.
    Bây giờ, bạn đang chú ý.
    Bạn đang chú ý, không chỉ đến những gì tôi đã nói, mà còn là cảm xúc đứng sau nó.
    Thật tốt hơn nhiều để nói, ồ, đây không phải là đề nghị cuối cùng của chúng tôi, nhưng, bạn biết đấy.
    Có một quyền lực thực sự khi bạn làm mọi việc chậm lại một chút và tạo ra những khoảng trống.
    Điều này quay trở lại những gì tôi đã nói, ai kiểm soát thời gian, kiểm soát.
    Bạn đang thiết lập quyền kiểm soát trong sân khấu của các cuộc đàm phán.
    Họ không dạy điều đó.
    Cử chỉ tay của bạn cũng vậy.
    Bạn có những cử chỉ tay rất phù hợp với những gì bạn đang nói.
    Ngay cả khi bạn đang nói chuyện với tôi, bạn vừa hỏi, ai điều khiển thời gian?
    Kiểm soát.
    Và vì vậy tôi tự hỏi làm thế nào để cử chỉ tay của chúng ta.
    Và các ngón tay của tôi đang dạng ra, thiết lập mức độ chúng tôi quan tâm đến điều gì đó.
    Khi chúng tôi lo lắng, các ngón tay của chúng tôi lại gần nhau.
    Và khi chúng tôi lo sợ nhiều, các ngón tay cái lại bị gập vào.
    Tôi đã thấy người ở vị thế thương lượng tiết lộ rất nhiều thông tin bởi vì đột nhiên họ lại
    gập ngón tay cái lại.
    Tôi nói, được rồi, họ đang sợ.
    Bởi vì chó gập tai xuống.
    Con người gập tay xuống, bất kể bạn có tối màu đến đâu, lòng bàn tay
    rất dễ thấy.
    Điều đó tiến hóa cùng chúng ta vì chúng rất biểu cảm.
    Vì vậy ngay cả trong ánh sáng yếu, chúng ta có thể sử dụng tay để giao tiếp.
    Càng tự tin, các ngón tay của chúng ta càng xa nhau.
    Tôi quan tâm.
    Hãy tưởng tượng nếu tôi nói, tôi quan tâm đến bạn so với tôi quan tâm đến bạn.
    Đó là một sự khác biệt lớn.
    Vì vậy trong ví dụ đầu tiên, bạn như kiểu có các ngón tay gần nhau.
    Trong ví dụ thứ hai, bạn đã dạng chúng ra.
    Điều này, tôi quan tâm đến điều này.
    Vì vậy, chúng gia tăng thông điệp.
    Và bộ não con người cũng đã tiến hóa để tìm kiếm bàn tay.
    Bởi vì tay, số một, có thể được sử dụng như một vũ khí.
    Nhưng số hai, chúng cũng tượng trưng cho những cảm xúc mà chúng ta cảm nhận.
    Và giao tiếp bằng mắt.
    Có,
    Rất nhiều điều đã được nói về giao tiếp bằng mắt và tầm quan trọng của nó.
    Tôi nên hiểu gì về sự tự tin trong giao tiếp bằng mắt?
    Giao tiếp bằng mắt theo một cách nào đó là, tôi có thể nói rằng chúng ta có thể dành khoảng 40 phút cho nó vì, và như một giáo viên, tôi có thể nói với bạn vì bạn muốn có giao tiếp bằng mắt tốt.
    Chẳng hạn, nếu bạn đang đối diện với một người phụ nữ, bạn không muốn nó đi, bạn biết đấy, giao tiếp bằng mắt bình thường là ở đây.
    Bạn không muốn nó đi xuống đây, đến ngực.
    Được chứ.
    Vì vậy bạn muốn giữ nó ở trên khuôn mặt, đúng không?
    Vì vậy bạn muốn giữ nó trên khuôn mặt, nhưng bạn cũng không muốn gây áp lực trừ khi bạn muốn gây áp lực.
    Vì vậy bạn phải áp dụng các điều như hành vi nhìn.
    Bạn phải áp dụng các điều như nhìn đi chỗ khác.
    Bây giờ, cả bạn và tôi đều nhìn đi chỗ khác khi đang suy nghĩ về các ví dụ và những điều khác nhau.
    Bạn có thể sử dụng giao tiếp bằng mắt để nhấn mạnh.
    Xem xem chúng ta đã sử dụng giao tiếp bằng mắt hoặc đôi mắt bao nhiêu lần để truyền đạt ý kiến.
    Có thể với người phối ngẫu của bạn, bạn đã nói, bạn nghĩ gì?
    Và ngay lập tức họ sẽ nhìn, anh ấy hoặc cô ấy có thể nhìn vào bạn đời của bạn, không phải cụ thể của bạn, mà là một người mà bạn sống cùng, và họ nói, không.
    Vì vậy, bằng đôi mắt của chúng ta, chúng ta thường đưa ra ý kiến của mình.
    Vì vậy trong các cuộc đàm phán, đó là một lĩnh vực quan trọng.
    Một trong những điều tôi thường suy nghĩ rất nhiều là việc xây dựng mối quan hệ một cách nhanh chóng. Bạn biết đấy, tôi là người thực hiện podcast này khá thường xuyên, đôi khi tôi nghĩ quá nhiều, đặc biệt là khi gặp những người như bạn, vì tôi nghĩ, ôi Chúa ơi, người này sẽ đọc mọi thứ về tôi và da-da-da-da-da-da. Vâng. Thỉnh thoảng tôi cảm thấy mình suy nghĩ quá nhiều khi gặp ai đó như bạn, một chuyên gia về ngôn ngữ cơ thể, người giỏi về khoa học hành vi. Và tôi muốn nói về việc xây dựng mối quan hệ. Chúng tôi thực sự đã quay video cuộc tương tác của chúng tôi ngày hôm nay. Khi tôi bước vào và tôi có video ở đây, hãy để tôi xem điều này, xem nếu có gì, chúng tôi sẽ đưa nó lên màn hình cho bất kỳ ai đang xem, nhưng tôi chỉ muốn bạn phân tích cuộc tương tác của tôi với bạn khi tôi gặp bạn và cho tôi biết nó có thể tốt hơn như thế nào. Được rồi. Xin chào, Joe. Rất vui được gặp bạn. Vậy trước tiên, bạn đã chờ tôi với tay chống hông, điều đó có nghĩa là tôi đang nắm quyền. Tôi là người lớn. Và tay của bạn đang ở đây. Vâng, tôi hiểu. Được rồi. Nhưng, bạn biết đấy. Tôi thực sự nhớ điều đó. Tôi nhớ đã nghĩ, hãy để tay khỏi hông của bạn. Không, không, không. Nhưng, nhưng, nhưng không sao cả. Đây là lĩnh vực của bạn. Tôi kỳ vọng điều này từ bạn trong lĩnh vực của bạn. Nhưng một trong những điều bạn đã làm ngay lập tức là bạn đã đi vòng quanh bàn và tiến lên bắt tay tôi. Đúng không? Vậy một trong những điều tôi nói là mức độ quan trọng của con người đối với chúng ta được xác định bởi tốc độ chúng ta hành động. Được rồi. Vậy việc bạn thực sự đã đi từ đó tới đây và bạn làm ngay lập tức, cho thấy rằng bạn quan tâm. Ngay cả khi mới 11 tháng, một em bé sẽ nhận ra cá nhân hoặc thậm chí là các vật vô tri vô giác mà quan tâm chỉ dựa trên cách nhanh chóng mà họ di chuyển. Hướng về họ? Hướng về họ. Được rồi. Để làm điều gì đó cho họ. Được rồi. Đó được gọi là hành động pro-social. Và trẻ em chỉ mới 11 tháng đã nhận ra điều đó. Vì vậy, đây là một điều mà tôi không ngạc nhiên bởi vì bạn đã thành công. Bạn biết đấy, thành công, đối với tôi, được đo bằng mức độ mà mọi người hòa hợp với nhau. Cảm ơn bạn vì công việc. Tôi trân trọng bạn. Cảm ơn. Không có vấn đề gì. Bạn rất rất thông minh. Bạn trông như một người, ừ, đã làm việc trong FBI. Tôi, ừ, đó là đồng phục FBI. Đây là… À, tôi sẽ có mic không hay chỉ cái này? Chỉ cái đó thôi. Chỉ cái đó thôi. Tuyệt vời. Được rồi. Bạn đã nói điều gì đó đáng yêu về cách tôi ăn mặc, mà tôi, ừ, rất cảm kích. Đây luôn là một lời nhắc nhở tốt cho tôi về việc tôi trông già hơn bây giờ. Và, và, ghi chú duy nhất mà tôi muốn thêm là tôi sẽ đứng lâu một chút và sau đó đảm bảo rằng, bạn biết đấy, khi tôi ngồi, thì bạn ngồi cùng lúc. Được rồi. Vì vậy, mời bạn ngồi và ngồi cùng bạn. Cùng một lúc, hơn là để tôi ngồi trước, nếu bạn có thể thấy trong trường hợp đó, tôi thực sự vẫn đang đứng trên bạn trong khi bạn đã ngồi. Điều đó trong đàm phán sẽ là, như chúng tôi nói, không được phép. Điều đó có nghĩa là gì? Nó là. Đó là một điều cấm kỵ. Đó là một từ lớn. Đó là một từ lớn đối với Steve. Đừng làm như vậy. Thế còn việc ghi chú thì sao? Đây là điều mà tôi đã bắt đầu làm trong sáu tháng qua khi tôi có mặt trong các cuộc họp tại các công ty của tôi ở Anh, ừm, là tôi có một chiếc iPad bây giờ. Và khi ai đó đang nói, điều đó thực sự giúp tôi vì cách mà tôi suy nghĩ, xử lý và học hỏi. Và nó cũng giúp tôi không bị lắng nghe để nói. Nếu họ nói điều gì đó và tôi ngay lập tức có một ý tưởng mà tôi lo lắng sẽ bị mất, thay vì, bạn biết đấy, hành vi kiểu đó, tôi có thể viết xuống điều mà tôi sắp nói. Và điều đó cho tôi thêm thời gian để lắng nghe. Nhưng một trong những điều tôi nhận thấy trong công việc của bạn là bạn nói rằng trong việc thể hiện rằng bạn quan tâm, việc ghi chú là một cách cực kỳ hiệu quả để làm điều đó. Vậy, điều tôi muốn nói với bạn là điều tôi sẽ nói với nhà trị liệu. Một trong những sai lầm lớn nhất mà các nhà trị liệu bắt đầu mắc phải là họ ngồi đó và bởi vì nhiều người trong số họ kiếm được ít tiền hơn và họ không có đội ngũ thư ký như trước đây, họ bây giờ gõ các quan sát của họ trong khi đang nói chuyện với khách hàng của họ. Tôi nghĩ đó là một sai lầm lớn. Và từ những nghiên cứu mà công ty tôi đã thực hiện khảo sát, không phải nhà trị liệu, mà là khách hàng của họ, những người sẵn sàng nói chuyện, thì điều đó thật tệ. Điều tôi cố gắng nhấn mạnh là hãy có tài liệu trước mặt bạn. Và nếu có một ghi chú đặc biệt, hãy viết một chút gì đó, hoặc nếu bạn có ai đó kèm theo bạn sẽ là người ghi chú, tôi không muốn bỏ lỡ bất cứ điều gì. Nếu bạn đang viết, bạn không quan sát. Và quan sát thực sự quan trọng hơn việc viết. Bây giờ, nếu bạn bắt đầu nói và đề cập, nếu bạn đã đề cập đến điểm khuyết cố, tôi có thể nghĩ, được rồi, đó là điểm khuyết cố hay siêu điểm khuyết vô? Được rồi, đó là một ghi chú đáng giá. Và sau đó tôi quay lại và xem xét. Nhưng nếu tôi luôn viết, tôi, bạn biết đấy, tôi có những người trẻ nói với tôi, ừ, bạn chỉ là một người cổ hủ. Đây là cách chúng tôi đã lớn lên. Tôi có thể nói với bạn rằng từ quan điểm tiến hóa, chúng ta không thể vượt qua DNA của mình. Chúng ta thật sự không thể, ví dụ như, nhà trường đến và nói, bạn biết đấy, bạn không thể ôm học sinh nữa. Được rồi. Đừng kỳ vọng, bạn biết đấy, tại sao chúng ta có những học sinh trầm cảm? Tại sao có bất kỳ số lượng điều gì đó, nhưng tôi có thể nói với bạn điều này. Chúng ta tiến hóa để ôm, để chạm, để chào hỏi nhau, bạn biết đấy, người bạn thân nhất của bạn, tất cả những thứ đó. Khi chúng ta từng tranh đấu với những người bạn của mình, đúng không, điều đó, điều đó chơi đùa, tất cả những điều đó đều là chạm kín đáo. Đó là vì loài của chúng ta cần điều đó. Con người cần chạm. Có những điều mà con người cần. Và một trong số đó là tương tác qua khuôn mặt. Khi bạn tập trung vào việc viết, bạn thực sự đang lấy đi điều đó. Vậy bạn nghĩ gì về việc bắt tay? Bởi vì việc bắt tay là cách chúng ta chạm vào những người lạ theo cách xã hội chấp nhận. Có cách bắt tay nào tốt không? Có. Và có những cách tồi.
    Tôi luôn nói rằng khi bắt tay, ngón tay phải hướng xuống, đúng không?
    Rất nhiều người lại giơ ngón tay lên.
    Và khi họ bắt tay, hãy xem liệu chúng ta có thể với tới nhau không.
    Và khi họ làm như vậy, giờ đây bạn có ngón tay của người đàn ông đó ở khu vực nhạy cảm.
    Đây là một khu vực nhạy cảm trên cơ thể bạn.
    Đây là nơi bạn hôn.
    Các mạch máu.
    Đúng vậy.
    Vâng, bên trong cổ tay là một khu vực nhạy cảm.
    Và bây giờ bạn có ngón tay của người đàn ông này ở đây và thật kỳ quặc.
    Vì vậy ngón tay phải thấp và áp lực được truyền đều.
    Vậy nên bạn không nên cố gắng.
    Donald Trump thì làm quá.
    Đúng vậy.
    Đừng, đừng, đừng làm cái bắt tay như của Donald Trump hay đừng có kéo tay quá mạnh.
    Đừng bóp quá chặt.
    Đừng chơi jujitsu.
    Người cùng tuổi tôi có thể bị viêm khớp.
    Tôi không bao giờ bị ấn tượng.
    Tôi đã từng có những người đàn ông một bước vào và họ to lớn lực lưỡng và bóp tay tôi và tôi nghĩ, bạn có nghiêm túc không?
    Còn về việc ôm tay thì sao, đúng không?
    Vì vậy, ôm tay là được với những người thực sự, bạn biết đấy, nhưng hầu hết mọi người không thích bị ôm tay quá chặt.
    Nếu bạn muốn chạm vào tay của người khác.
    Vậy thì bạn bắt tay và sau đó chạm vào cánh tay trên và tất cả những gì đó.
    Đối với bất kỳ ai thích matcha, đối với bất kỳ ai thích latte, một trong những công ty của tôi vừa mới ra mắt sản phẩm matcha latte đóng hộp.
    Và tôi đã trò chuyện với người sáng lập, Marissa, và cô ấy nói rằng việc tạo ra sản phẩm này không hề dễ dàng.
    Họ đã cố gắng ra mắt vào năm 2021, nhưng như thường lệ trong kinh doanh, quy trình phát triển trở nên vô cùng phức tạp.
    Vì vậy, họ đã dành bốn năm qua để kiểm tra và hoàn thiện từng chi tiết để tạo ra sản phẩm tuyệt vời này – một latte matcha vani hoàn hảo và một latte matcha dâu hoàn hảo.
    Vậy những gì chúng ta có trong những lon này là matcha chất lượng barista trực tiếp từ lon.
    Và nó có vị giống như vừa được làm từ quán cà phê yêu thích của bạn, ngọt tự nhiên và kem tự nhiên trong một lon.
    Và lý do mà tôi đầu tư vào công ty này và tôi uống matcha là vì matcha như một nguồn năng lượng giúp tôi có năng lượng bền vững mà không bị sụt giảm mạnh như những sản phẩm khác.
    Bạn có thể tìm mua matcha latte đóng hộp sẵn tại Waitrose, Tesco, Holland và Barrett.
    Và đây là một chút khuyến khích dành cho bạn.
    Nếu bạn truy cập perfectted.com và sử dụng mã diary40, bạn sẽ nhận được 40% giảm giá cho đơn hàng đầu tiên của mình.
    Xin đừng nói với ai.
    Hãy giữ điều đó cho riêng bạn.
    Đó là mã diary40.
    Bạn sẽ nhận được 40% giảm giá tại perfectted.com.
    Vậy hãy sử dụng điều đó trước khi họ thay đổi nhé.
    Tôi có một video khác dành cho bạn ở đây.
    Vậy anh ấy bắt đầu với cánh tay xuống, nhưng anh ấy đang chạm vào cổ của mình, che kín cổ.
    Anh ấy đang tạo hình bên trái khuôn mặt và đang mát xa trán và cổ.
    Vì vậy, tôi có ý nói rằng những điều này biểu thị sự khó chịu tâm lý.
    Giờ, tại sao lại như vậy, chúng ta thấy anh ấy nháy mắt hoặc mí mắt chớp.
    Anh ấy đang chạm vào mặt.
    Vì sao vậy?
    Tôi không biết.
    Bây giờ có một hơi thở giải phóng.
    Trông như anh ấy đang đọc một trong những cuốn sách của tôi.
    Những gì tôi muốn nói với bạn là, đây đều là những hành vi mà bạn không muốn từ một nhà lãnh đạo.
    Chắc chắn, bạn thấy điều đó từ một người theo sau, nhưng không phải từ một nhà lãnh đạo.
    Bạn sẽ không bao giờ thấy một vị tướng làm bất kỳ điều gì như vậy.
    Chắc chắn không trong quân đội Mỹ hay quân đội Anh.
    Tất cả những hành vi mà anh ấy đang thực hiện, những điều làm dịu hoặc biểu thị sự khó chịu tâm lý nào đó cũng là tất cả những hành vi mà chúng ta đồng nhất với sự thiếu tự tin.
    Những nhà lãnh đạo thường là những cá nhân xuất sắc.
    Và bạn nói rằng những cá nhân xuất sắc được tạo nên, không phải sinh ra.
    Và đó là một điều tốt vì nó đưa mức độ xuất sắc này trong tầm tay của bạn và tôi.
    Và bạn đã xác định nhiều đặc điểm làm cho ai đó trở thành một người xuất sắc.
    Đúng vậy.
    Một trong số đó là tự làm chủ.
    Tự làm chủ, bất kể đó có phải là Alexander Đại đế người đã theo đuổi những bài học từ, hãy xem nào, Socrates dạy Plato, Plato dạy Aristotle, và Aristotle dạy Alexander.
    Vì vậy, Aristotle đã dạy Alexander Đại đế, và ông ấy theo đuổi tri thức.
    Thomas Edison, một trong những nhà phát minh vĩ đại nhất ở Mỹ, 1.300 bằng sáng chế,
    rời trường khi mới sáu tuổi, theo đuổi tri thức.
    Tôi có thể xuất thân từ nhà nghèo, nhưng chúng tôi rất nghèo, tôi đã phải đi đến thùng rác để
    cướp sách và tạp chí để học.
    Bạn có thể tạo ra chương trình học việc cho riêng mình, và bạn có thể học cách làm chủ một kỹ năng hoặc một kiến thức hoặc một động tác thể thao, bất cứ điều gì.
    Ai đó có được sự tự làm chủ, họ đã đạt được điều gì đó mà không ai có thể lấy đi từ họ.
    Không ai có thể lấy điều đó từ tôi.
    Điều gì vậy?
    Tất cả kiến thức đó, tất cả kỹ năng đó, tất cả kinh nghiệm đó, không ai có thể lấy đi từ tôi.
    Tại sao từ “tự” lại có trong đó?
    Tự làm chủ.
    Bởi vì rất nhiều điều đó, không ai, bạn biết đấy, chúng ta đã nói chuyện trước đó, và tôi đã nói, tôi cố gắng
    đọc hai cuốn sách mỗi tuần, để tôi có thể đọc khoảng 1.000 cuốn sách trong mỗi thập kỷ.
    Không ai bảo tôi làm điều đó.
    Vì vậy, nó là tự.
    Tại sao?
    Bởi vì tôi muốn biết.
    Bởi vì, bạn biết đấy, tại sao Leonardo da Vinci lại muốn biết về những xoáy nước, hay chiều dài của lưỡi của con chim gõ kiến?
    Ai quan tâm?
    Điều đó không quan trọng.
    Đó là tự nguyện.
    Và chúng ta, trong thế giới này, là những người thừa kế lợi ích từ sự quan tâm của Leonardo da Vinci đến những xoáy nước,
    điều đó đã giúp ông ấy vẽ tóc của nàng Mona Lisa, và chúng ta là những người thừa kế điều đó.
    Tôi nghĩ rằng tự làm chủ quan trọng hơn, tôi nghĩ, những gì mà một trường đại học có thể dạy bạn.
    Một trường đại học có thể dạy bạn cách suy nghĩ, nhưng nó không dạy bạn cách làm chủ.
    Vì vậy có phải điều này là, vì tôi nghe thấy, như, rõ ràng là việc học hỏi và theo đuổi tri thức, và sau đó có một phần khác của tự làm chủ, cảm giác như là sự tự ý thức, nhận thức về bản thân.
    Vâng, tôi nghĩ bạn là một ví dụ của tự làm chủ.
    Đó là từ duy nhất trong vũ trụ ngôn ngữ bao quát được khả năng lấy những gì có sẵn và biến nó thành một phần của cuộc sống bạn.
    Và vì vậy, dù đó là bà tôi dạy tôi cách nói chuyện với mọi người, hay mẹ tôi, hoặc cha tôi, mẹ tôi chỉ cho tôi cách bắt tay thực sự, chị gái tôi chỉ cho tôi cách khiêu vũ. Tất cả những điều này đều là một phần của việc tự làm chủ bản thân.
    Giờ đây, tôi có thể đã từ chối tất cả những điều đó. Và rất nhiều người đã làm như vậy. Nhiều người từ chối khoa học hoặc từ chối, ôi, tôi không muốn học cách khiêu vũ. Tôi không muốn học cách đó. Được rồi. Đó là lựa chọn của bạn. Nhưng có một sự duyên dáng tuyệt vời trong việc có thể nhìn vào thế giới xung quanh bạn và học hỏi từ nó, điều mà bạn đã làm, và nói rằng, tôi sẽ áp dụng điều đó vào thực tiễn. Tại sao tôi phải phát minh lại những gì mà người khác đã trải nghiệm? Tôi sẽ chấp nhận những điều tôi thích và ưa chuộng, và sau đó tôi sẽ sử dụng nó một cách hiệu quả.
    Điều thứ hai là quan sát, điều mà tôi nghĩ rằng chúng ta đã nói đến. Quan sát. Bạn biết không, ví dụ điển hình là một bậc phụ huynh có thể quan sát nhu cầu ngay lập tức của trẻ em và các thứ tương tự. Và tôi thấy mọi người bây giờ thật, tôi đã ở sân bay ngày hôm qua khi đến đây, và có một gia đình mà suốt thời gian họ chờ đợi, không một lần nào nói chuyện với nhau, cũng không tỉnh táo nhận ra những gì người khác đang làm. Tôi cảm thấy điều đó thật khó khăn bởi vì khi con gái tôi lớn lên, tôi chưa bao giờ rời mắt khỏi cô ấy. Tôi thấy mọi người trên thiết bị của họ, như cả gia đình này, và họ đang bỏ lỡ rất nhiều điều, rất nhiều thông tin. Những phát minh vĩ đại được tạo ra thông qua sự quan sát. Velcro. Bạn có biết câu chuyện về Velcro không? Giữa Thế chiến II, một người Thụy Sĩ lên núi và trở về sau khi đi bộ đường dài, đúng không? Và anh nhìn vào đôi tất của mình và nói, con chấy này, những cái nhỏ nhỏ… Có phải đó là một loại cây? Ừ, đó chỉ là những hạt giống nhỏ mà chúng tạo ra dính vào mọi thứ. Ở Mỹ, chúng tôi gọi chúng là sticker. Có nhiều tên gọi khác nhau. Và anh nhìn chúng dưới kính hiển vi và nhận ra rằng chúng không chỉ dính ra ngoài, mà thực sự là cong lại. Và khi cong lại, chúng dính vào mọi thứ. Vì vậy, anh nói, tôi sẽ phát minh cái này. Giờ đây, điều thú vị, chúng ta nói về quan sát, là anh đã thấy điều này một lần. Có bao nhiêu triệu người đã thấy nó? Nhưng chính người quan sát có thể tận dụng điều đó. Và đó là lý do tôi nói với các giám đốc, khi bạn thuê, hãy thuê những người quan sát tốt, vì họ sẽ cứu bạn. Họ là những người sẽ nói, ê, tôi thấy một số xu hướng ở đây không tốt. Vì vậy, quan sát là rất quan trọng.
    Và sau đó chúng ta chuyển sang điều tiếp theo là, hầu hết mọi người nghĩ rằng giao tiếp chỉ là về từ ngữ, và giao tiếp chủ yếu, hiệu quả nhất, và có ảnh hưởng nhất, là phi ngôn ngữ, trải qua mọi nền văn hóa. Và quan niệm sai lầm rằng từ ngữ vượt trội hơn phi ngôn ngữ, hãy đến một đám tang. Hãy đến một đám tang và xem từ ngữ hoạt động tốt như thế nào so với việc đặt tay quanh ai đó và để họ khóc trên vai bạn. Đó là cách chính mà chúng ta giao tiếp. Đó là cách chính mà chúng ta thể hiện sự quan tâm. Và đó là cách chính mà chúng ta thể hiện sự đồng cảm.
    Điều thứ tư là hành động. Và với tôi, nó thực sự liên kết với cả điểm thứ hai, đó là quan sát, nhưng cũng liên quan đến câu chuyện của bạn về Velcro, vì chắc chắn có nhiều người đã nghĩ, ôi Chúa ơi, cái đó dính vào tôi. Và họ không làm gì cả. Có thể ngay cả những người nghĩ, ôi, điều đó có thể hữu ích. Nhưng phần khó thường là làm gì đó với nó. Đó là hành động. Làm điều gì đó, như tôi đã nói trong cuốn sách, hãy trở nên xuất sắc. Hãy làm điều gì đó vì xã hội hoặc có lợi, nhưng đừng chậm trễ, đúng không? Điều tồi tệ nhất mà chúng ta có thể làm, nếu bạn muốn cho mọi người biết rằng bạn không quan tâm, thì hãy từ từ. Và điều này xảy ra mọi lúc. Bạn đến một quầy, bạn đi đến một quầy và nói, ê, bạn biết đấy, tôi muốn được giúp đỡ với điều này, bạn biết đó, và sau đó họ chỉ, ôi, tôi không biết. Để tôi kiểm tra ở phía sau. Và họ mất thời gian để đi đến phía sau. Và sau đó họ mất thời gian để đi trở lại. Bạn có thể cho rằng bạn đang hét lên, tôi không quan tâm. Những gì tôi nói với các quản lý là, đó là trách nhiệm của bạn. Tại sao bạn lại thuê một người không thể di chuyển với tốc độ ánh sáng? Bởi vì chuyển động được đồng nhất với sự quan tâm. Vậy nếu đó là thái độ của họ, bạn cũng có thể treo một tấm biển ghi “tôi không quan tâm”. Giờ đây, bạn có thể nói, ồ, bạn biết đấy, có thể họ có vấn đề về di chuyển. Được rồi, tự nguyện. Tôi sẽ nói, bạn biết không? Tôi sẽ mất một chút thời gian vì tôi vừa mới thay khớp háng, nhưng tôi sẽ giải quyết điều đó ngay bây giờ. Chúng ta có thể tha thứ. Nhưng khi chúng ta không cho thấy rằng chúng ta quan tâm thông qua hành động, điều đó thật ngay lập tức.
    Và điều thứ năm là sự thoải mái tâm lý. Và bạn viết trong cuốn sách rằng đây là sức mạnh mạnh mẽ nhất mà con người sở hữu. Hoàn toàn đồng ý. Điều thú vị về con người trong những năm tôi đã nghiên cứu họ là con người không tìm kiếm sự hoàn hảo. Đứa trẻ không quan tâm nếu nó đang mút ngón tay mình hay ngón tay của em gái. Chúng có thể thay thế cho nhau. Con người không tìm kiếm sự hoàn hảo. Điều chúng ta tìm kiếm là sự thoải mái tâm lý. Và bất cứ ai mang lại điều đó là người chiến thắng nhanh nhất. Đơn giản như vậy. Nếu bạn có thể, bạn còn quá trẻ. Nhưng tôi nhớ khi máy tính mới ra đời và chúng nằm trong những chiếc hộp xấu xí và trong những cửa hàng xấu xí và chúng nằm sau quầy và chúng rất xấu xí. Steve Jobs đến và nói, không, chúng ta sẽ đặt chúng trên những cái bàn thí nghiệm như chúng ta có và chúng ta sẽ làm cho chúng dễ tiếp cận. Vì vậy, thiết bị bí ẩn này là một từ rất xấu mà bạn quên rằng mọi người đã ghét máy tính nhiều đến mức nào. Họ từng đến vào ban đêm và cắt dây. Đó là mức độ sợ hãi của mọi người đối với máy tính. Và ông ấy đã từ 4% thị phần máy tính lên đến 67% hoặc con số nào đó bây giờ. Tại sao? Sự thoải mái tâm lý. Và tôi nói điều này với các doanh nhân. Khi bạn đang đàm phán, điều bạn đang đàm phán là liệu bạn có thể tạo ra đủ sự thoải mái tâm lý để người khác có thể sống với điều đó không, để tôi có thể cảm thấy, được rồi, có thể tôi không có tất cả những gì tôi muốn, nhưng trong khoảng thời gian này, tôi có thể sống với sự thoải mái tâm lý đó.
    Tôi có thể quay lại ban giám đốc và báo cáo rằng đây là những gì tốt nhất tôi có thể làm và như vậy.
    Hướng đến sự thoải mái tâm lý.
    Và làm thế nào để tạo ra sự thoải mái tâm lý trong bất kỳ ngữ cảnh nào?
    Bạn đã bắt đầu điều đó hôm nay.
    Bạn đã chào đón tôi vào và rồi bạn hỏi, bạn muốn uống gì?
    Bạn có muốn uống nước không?
    Bạn có muốn uống trà không?
    Bạn có muốn uống cà phê không?
    Đó là khởi đầu của quá trình tạo ra sự thoải mái tâm lý.
    Chúng ta đang ở trong một môi trường yên tĩnh.
    Ít tiếng ồn, nhiều sự thoải mái tâm lý hơn.
    Ít ánh sáng.
    Điều đó không gây khó chịu cho mắt.
    Bất kỳ điều gì bắt đầu từ cấp độ sinh học, vật lý, sinh lý, và sau đó là nhận thức.
    Vì vậy, sự thoải mái tâm lý.
    Chúng ta đang đàm phán.
    Vậy bạn muốn đề nghị 3.000 đô la.
    Tôi nghĩ tôi đáng giá 6.000 đô la.
    Vậy làm thế nào để chúng ta đạt được điều đó?
    À, tôi sẽ để bạn nói lý do tại sao bạn chỉ có thể cung cấp 3.000 đô la.
    Và tôi sẽ cung cấp lý do của tôi.
    Được rồi.
    Thực tế là chúng ta thực sự có thể kể câu chuyện của mình bắt đầu quá trình thoải mái tâm lý.
    Bây giờ, cuối cùng, tôi có thể phải tuân theo điều đó vì chỉ có b ст tiền.
    Và nếu nó không nằm trong ngân sách, thì nó không có trong ngân sách.
    Nhưng có thể có một số điều mà bạn có thể thêm vào để nói, hãy nhìn, đây là tất cả những gì chúng tôi có vào lúc này.
    Nhưng chúng tôi sẽ đánh giá lại điều này trong ba tháng.
    Và nếu chúng tôi có thể thì, tùy thuộc vào thu nhập, chúng tôi sẽ cố gắng để cung cấp cho bạn thêm 500 đô la mỗi tháng, chúng tôi sẽ làm điều đó sau.
    Chúng tôi thực hiện từng bước một, nhưng luôn suy nghĩ về điều gì mang lại sự thoải mái tâm lý.
    Việc hành động khắc nghiệt, tỏ ra phẫn nộ, không chú ý đến nhu cầu, mong muốn, những ước muốn và thậm chí sở thích tạo ra sự khó chịu về tâm lý.
    Năm 2009, bạn đã viết một cuốn sách có tên là “Những người có tính tự phụ giữa chúng ta”.
    Vâng.
    Và trước đó, bạn đã nói rằng khoảng 2% người là tự phụ, nhưng sau đó là 25% CEO?
    22%.
    Lên đến 22% CEO có những đặc điểm tự phụ, vâng.
    Được rồi.
    Và nếu ai đó phải đối mặt với một người tự phụ, họ nên làm gì để quản lý tình huống đó?
    Bởi vì theo những con số đó, khoảng 98% người không phải là người tự phụ, nhưng có lẽ sẽ phải đối mặt với họ trong đời.
    Và rồi, bạn biết đấy, một số người đáng kể làm việc với họ.
    Dù họ chiếm 2% dân số, chúng ta vẫn sẽ làm việc với hoặc cho ai đó như vậy.
    Vì vậy, điều chúng ta phải nhớ, vâng, người tự phụ có ý nghĩa gì?
    Chúng ta không nói về một người nhìn vào gương và thích xịt nước hoa và chải tóc.
    Đây là một người quá đánh giá bản thân, nhưng phải hạ thấp người khác.
    Đây là người chỉ nghĩ về bản thân mình và không quan tâm đến những đau khổ hay những gì đang diễn ra trong cuộc đời bạn, muốn bạn trung thành, nhưng không trung thành với bạn, không quan tâm đến công việc cá nhân của bạn, nhưng muốn bạn quan tâm đến của họ.
    Đó là người tự phụ ác tính của bạn.
    Ồ, và nhân tiện, họ vốn dĩ nói dối, nhưng lại mong bạn nói sự thật với họ.
    Bây giờ, tác động là, vâng, nếu họ chỉ chiếm 2% dân số, nhưng chúng ta thấy họ trong nhiều công ty, chúng ta sẽ làm việc cho họ, thì, bạn biết đấy, làm thế nào chúng ta có thể hòa hợp?
    Đầu tiên là nhận ra rằng họ sẽ hạ thấp giá trị của chúng ta.
    Bây giờ, đôi khi họ hạ thấp bạn bằng cách không mời bạn tham gia các cuộc họp hoặc chia sẻ thông tin, nhưng nhiều lần thông qua cách họ đối xử với bạn, la mắng bạn, hoặc khinh thường bạn.
    Ý tôi là, tôi có một số điều thật khủng khiếp.
    Vậy chúng ta sẽ làm gì khi có những người như vậy?
    Số một là nhận dạng những gì bạn đang đối phó.
    Và đó là lý do tại sao tôi đã viết “Những nhân cách nguy hiểm”, vì tôi có những danh sách kiểm tra mạnh mẽ trong đó, đã được thử nghiệm nhiều lần.
    Vì vậy, bạn có thể thấy, ôi, thật tuyệt, trong số 125 điều, người này có 75 tính cách này.
    Bạn có một vấn đề.
    Nhưng bây giờ, đây là vấn đề.
    Khi chúng ta sống với một người như thế này, hãy giả sử bạn, bạn biết đấy, họ có thể rất quyến rũ, nhưng sau đó họ quay lại với bạn và trở thành con người thật của họ.
    Vậy làm thế nào để bạn đối phó với điều đó?
    Những gì tôi có thể nói với bạn là quỹ đạo không ủng hộ bạn, rằng những cá nhân này rất khắc nghiệt, họ rất độc hại, đến mức cuối cùng họ sẽ nạn nhân hóa bạn về mặt thể chất, tâm lý, cảm xúc, sinh lý, hoặc tài chính.
    Bạn sẽ trở thành nạn nhân.
    Câu hỏi là, và tôi nói với nhiều giám đốc điều hành làm việc cho những cá nhân như vậy, nơi mà họ bị bắt nạt, và điều này là, bạn sẵn sàng chịu đựng trong bao lâu?
    Nếu bạn có thể đặt ra một con số và nói sáu tháng hoặc một năm, được rồi, nhưng sau đó làm điều gì đó, vì bạn sẽ phải trả giá.
    Bạn biết đấy, có một cuốn sách tuyệt vời có tên là “Cơ thể giữ lại điểm số”.
    Cơ thể chắc chắn sẽ giữ lại điểm số.
    Bạn sẽ phải trả giá cho việc ở gần một cá nhân độc hại.
    Và nếu bạn trở thành món đồ chơi của người đó, bạn sẽ phải chịu đựng rất nhiều.
    Và vì vậy tôi nói, bạn biết đấy, không có viên thuốc nào có thể chữa trị cho họ.
    Không có gì bạn có thể làm để khiến họ thích bạn.
    Đừng mong đợi sự trung thành.
    Cố gắng ra ngoài càng sớm càng tốt.
    Và đó là lời khuyên duy nhất mà, bạn biết đấy, tôi chắc chắn không phải là một nhà lâm sàng.
    Nhưng tôi nghĩ hầu hết các chuyên gia lâm sàng, nếu họ thành thật, sẽ nói, bạn phải ra khỏi đó.
    Điều này là không thể chịu đựng được.
    Đừng cố gắng thắng trong bất kỳ khía cạnh nào.
    Đừng cố gắng và…
    Tôi không nghĩ bạn có thể thắng.
    Trước tiên, những cá nhân này có tính cách rất nghiêm trọng.
    Họ không có sự tự xem xét.
    Họ nhìn nhận mình là hoàn hảo.
    Họ không thấy bất kỳ khía cạnh thiếu sót nào trong chính họ.
    Và vì vậy, vì họ có tính cách khuyết điểm, bạn không thể mong đợi những hành vi bình thường từ họ.
    Và nên tại sao lại phải phơi bày bản thân với họ?
    Họ sẽ như vậy suốt đời.
    Có một chương đặc biệt mà bạn nói, một người thì tệ, hai người thì khủng khiếp, ba người thì chết người.
    Ôi, bạn biết đấy, mọi người, tôi thường nhận được câu hỏi này.
    Vậy, liệu có thể có nhiều đặc điểm không?
    Có.
    Bạn có thể có thể tự phụ bệnh lý.
    Vì vậy bạn đánh giá quá cao bản thân.
    Và bạn cũng có thể có đặc điểm của người có tính cách nghi ngờ khi mà bạn rất cứng nhắc trong suy nghĩ của mình và luôn nghi ngờ mọi ý định của mọi người.
    Trong lịch sử, bạn nhìn vào Hitler.
    Hitler đã tự phụ bệnh lý; ông là một người tự phụ ác tính.
    Ông ta bị hoang tưởng một cách lâm sàng.
    Ông ta sợ ai?
    Các nhóm thiểu số, người Romani, lúc đó được gọi là người gypsy, và tất nhiên là người Do Thái.
    Đó chính là hoang tưởng lâm sàng.
    Và ông ta là một kẻ tâm thần.
    Được rồi, hãy để điều đó được nói rõ.
    Tâm thần học là gì?
    Tâm thần học là khi bạn không có sự ân hận, không có lòng đồng cảm, không có lương tâm.
    Bạn có thể làm bất cứ điều gì bạn muốn và bạn vẫn ngủ ngon vào ban đêm.
    Đó là Robert Hare, nhà nghiên cứu, người đã định nghĩa rõ nhất về tâm thần học.
    Hitler có tất cả.
    Có lẽ có một ranh giới mong manh giữa chủ nghĩa tự mãn và sự tự tin.
    Bởi vì khi bạn nói về chủ nghĩa tự mãn, bạn đang nói về sự quan trọng thái quá, như thật sự tin rằng bản thân mình quan trọng.
    Và nghe có vẻ giống như một người tin tưởng một cách cực kỳ vào bản thân.
    Nhân tiện, chủ nghĩa tự mãn, đã được nghiên cứu từ những năm 1950, chúng ta bây giờ có một xã hội tự mãn như chưa từng có trước đây.
    Chúng ta thấy điều đó trong cách chúng ta nói về bản thân nhiều hơn bất kỳ điều gì khác.
    Chúng ta vào TikTok và các diễn đàn khác và chúng ta tuyên bố mọi thứ.
    Và vì vậy, chúng ta tự mãn hơn nhiều bây giờ so với những năm 1950.
    Họ ngay cả nhìn vào những từ mà chúng ta sử dụng.
    Bây giờ chúng ta sử dụng từ “tôi” và “mình” nhiều hơn so với những năm 1950.
    Chúng ta đã từng nói “chúng ta” và “của chúng ta”.
    Bây giờ chúng ta nói “tôi” và “mình”.
    Và một người tự mãn thật sự có một hệ thống niềm tin rất tham nhũng, họ thật sự bị khuyết điểm về nhân cách.
    Và họ không chỉ có các đặc điểm của chủ nghĩa tự mãn, mà họ thật sự tin vào cách họ nhìn nhận bản thân là không thể sai, rằng chỉ có họ mới có câu trả lời.
    Họ là người có thể làm cho chúng ta vĩ đại trở lại.
    Và tôi biết bạn sẽ hỏi tôi điều gì tiếp theo.
    Không, tôi sẽ không hỏi bạn điều đó.
    Cảm ơn bạn.
    Cảm ơn bạn.
    Nhưng nếu các đặc điểm đó phù hợp, thì điều tôi nói với mọi người là, cho dù bạn đang gia nhập một tổ chức hay đang nhìn vào ai đang lãnh đạo đất nước của bạn, hãy tự hỏi mình, họ có những đặc điểm này không?
    Và nếu họ có những đặc điểm đó, thì không phải là một phép toán khó.
    Tâm lý học, đặc biệt khi nói đến những người có khuyết điểm về nhân cách, không quá khó, là: tôi có muốn làm việc cho một người đánh giá cao tôi không?
    Hay một người coi thường người khác?
    Hay một người coi thường người khác?
    Và bạn bắt đầu từ đó.
    Trong hàng thập kỷ qua, khi bạn đã thực hiện tất cả những điều tuyệt vời này, săn lùng khủng bố, gián điệp, giám sát trên không, làm việc cùng với SAS, phỏng vấn mọi người, đuổi theo khủng bố.
    Nó đã thay đổi bạn như thế nào là một con người?
    Nó đã thay đổi cách bạn nhìn nhận hành vi con người và điều gì là con người, ý nghĩa và tất cả những câu hỏi lớn hơn của cuộc sống như thế nào?
    Tôi chưa bao giờ được hỏi câu hỏi đó.
    Vì vậy, cảm ơn bạn đã hỏi một câu hỏi sâu sắc.
    Tôi đoán câu trả lời tốt nhất là tôi đã học một cách từng bước, và tôi vui vì tôi đã học từng bước.
    Và điều đó, tôi có nghĩa là lần giết người đầu tiên của tôi chỉ là một vụ giết người thông thường mà tôi đã phản ứng.
    Vụ tự tử đầu tiên của tôi, là một cảnh sát, đã diễn ra theo từng giai đoạn.
    Tôi nghĩ nếu tôi bị đột ngột gặp phải mọi thứ mà tôi đã trình bày một lúc, tôi nghĩ tôi sẽ bị sụp đổ tinh thần.
    Tôi vui vì nó diễn ra theo từng tập, tôi đã có thể học hỏi từ mỗi lần.
    Và điều tôi đã học là, thứ nhất, ai là hầu hết những người mà tôi nói chuyện?
    Phần lớn là nhân chứng hoặc nạn nhân.
    Và những người này đều là những người tốt.
    Họ là những người tốt.
    Một trong những người tốt nhất là những người nông dân nghèo ở Arizona.
    Họ trồng bông.
    Họ không kiếm được nhiều.
    Họ là những người tốt.
    Bạn nhận ra rằng mọi điều bạn đang làm trong lực lượng thực thi pháp luật thực sự là vì họ.
    Bạn biết đấy, sau này khi tôi tham gia vào công tác phản gián, và giờ bạn đang xử lý các quốc gia và vốn của các quốc gia khác nhau.
    Và, vâng, mỗi quốc gia có những ưu tiên riêng của họ.
    Nhưng bạn nhận ra rằng khi bạn đang xử lý với những kẻ cực đoan, và họ có hệ thống niềm tin của riêng họ.
    Và không có gì thực sự bạn có thể làm để thay đổi họ.
    Nhưng chúng ta cũng có hệ thống niềm tin của mình.
    Và bạn phải nhận ra, được rồi, tôi không thể giải quyết tất cả các vấn đề.
    Là một nhân viên thực thi pháp luật, tôi chỉ có thể chú ý đến những gì tôi có thể giúp hoặc giải quyết hoặc đại loại là như vậy.
    Tôi không thể tìm ra tất cả các nghi phạm đã hoặc hiếp dâm hoặc giết người hoặc làm nổ.
    Và tôi đã ở Đại học Brigham Young khi cô gái bị bắt cóc bởi một kẻ giết người hàng loạt.
    Và đến bây giờ, tôi vẫn cảm thấy đau đớn rằng tôi đã có mặt khi vụ bắt cóc xảy ra đêm đó.
    Tôi vẫn cảm thấy nó.
    Và những điều này, chúng nặng nề lên bạn.
    Nhưng tôi cũng rất, bạn biết đó, khi tôi làm việc với sinh viên, tôi hướng dẫn mọi người.
    Tôi hướng dẫn rất nhiều giám đốc điều hành.
    Nhưng tôi cũng hướng dẫn những người trẻ tuổi tò mò.
    Và tôi thấy sự háo hức mà họ theo đuổi cuộc sống và kiến thức.
    Và điều đó cho tôi hy vọng lớn.
    Tại sao bạn vẫn còn đau đớn về việc mình đã làm nhiệm vụ đêm đó?
    Bởi vì bạn không thể gạt nó ra khỏi đầu.
    Tôi không thể gạt mùi của…
    Đôi khi bạn đến một hiện trường vụ án và mùi thật tồi tệ đến nỗi bạn không thể rửa sạch nó.
    Bạn phải đốt quần áo của mình.
    Các nhà điều tra pháp y biết điều này.
    Có một số điều mà bạn biết, người đầu tiên tôi thấy bị giết ở Cuba.
    Và bạn không thể, bạn biết đấy, về mặt sinh học, bạn có hai hippocampi.
    Và nó lưu giữ mọi điều tiêu cực bạn đã trải qua.
    Đó là lý do tại sao bạn không thể uống thuốc để điều trị căng thẳng sau chấn thương.
    Bởi vì hippocampi đảm bảo rằng lần đầu tiên bạn bị thương khi chạm vào bếp ga sẽ không xảy ra lần nữa.
    Vì vậy, tất cả những điều tiêu cực được giữ lại, đôi khi mãi mãi, nhưng thường là khoảng một thập kỷ.
    Nhưng tôi cũng thấy sáng suốt từ việc mọi người vẫn theo đuổi những điều tốt đẹp.
    Bạn biết đấy, tôi nghe từ những người làm việc với chó hoặc làm việc với những người khuyết tật mà không kỳ vọng bất kỳ phần thưởng nào.
    Và tôi nghĩ rằng hầu hết mọi người có một trái tim tốt, một trái tim nhân ái.
    Và vì vậy tôi cố gắng tập trung vào những người mà tôi đã gặp, những người đã cho tôi những ví dụ cho “Hãy Nổi Bật”.
    Người phụ nữ ở Brazil, khi mới vô sáu tuổi, đã bị mù.
    Cô tiếp tục sinh ra 12 đứa con.
    Cô đã có nhiều hơn, nhưng chỉ 12 đứa sống sót.
    Và ai đó vẫn có thể làm công việc thêu khi mờ mắt bằng cảm giác.
    Tôi sẽ không bao giờ quên trải nghiệm đó.
    Ngồi trong sự hiện diện của cô ấy là một niềm vui được ban tặng cho tôi. Hiểu một người phụ nữ có khả năng cảm nhận những người xung quanh chỉ thông qua cách mà những sợi lông trên tay cô ấy chuyển động khi họ tương tác với không gian xung quanh. Đó là một trải nghiệm tuyệt vời. Ngày nào trong sự nghiệp của bạn mà bạn tự hào nhất hoặc hạnh phúc nhất? Ôi, wow. Chà, tôi sẽ nói với bạn rằng tôi thực sự rất hạnh phúc khi tôi tốt nghiệp từ Học viện FBI. Hãy tưởng tượng, một lúc nào đó, có 27,000 ứng viên cho FBI và họ chỉ nhận khoảng 220 người mỗi năm. Vì vậy, tôi rất vui mừng. Tôi cũng rất hạnh phúc vào ngày tôi rời FBI vì vào lúc đó tôi đã hoàn thành mọi thứ và tôi muốn làm những điều khác. Tôi muốn viết, điều này rất khó khăn khi bạn đang ở trong Cục. Và tôi muốn tiếp tục giảng dạy. Đúng vậy. Vì vậy, tôi nghĩ rằng hai sự kiện đó là những khoảng thời gian tốt trong cuộc đời của tôi khi nói đến sự nghiệp. Joe, khán giả của tôi chủ yếu là những người muốn học hỏi, yêu thích những câu chuyện, muốn thay đổi cuộc sống của họ, cải thiện cuộc sống để đạt được những mục tiêu mà họ đã đặt ra. Vì vậy, bạn đã viết rất nhiều cuốn sách. Tôi nghĩ là tổng cộng 15 cuốn. Chà, 14 cuốn đã xuất bản, cuốn thứ 15 sẽ ra mắt vào năm tới. Vậy câu hỏi cuối cùng của tôi là, trong tất cả 14 cuốn sách, sắp tới là 15 cuốn mà bạn đã viết và mọi điều bạn đã học, điều gì là quan trọng nhất mà tôi đã không hỏi bạn, điều sẽ hữu ích cho ai đó đang tìm cách cải thiện cuộc sống của họ, kỹ năng giao tiếp, ngôn ngữ cơ thể của họ, để hiệu quả hơn trong việc theo đuổi mục tiêu của họ? Điều mà tôi nên đã hỏi bạn. Chà, tôi không muốn làm bạn thất vọng, nhưng tôi nghĩ bạn đã đặt ra rất nhiều câu hỏi tuyệt vời trong bất kỳ số phút hoặc giờ nào chúng ta đã làm điều này. Và tôi nghĩ rằng trong các câu hỏi của bạn, bản chất là, tầm quan trọng của việc kết nối là gì? Bạn biết đấy, khán giả của bạn đều đang ở trong lĩnh vực con người. Ý tôi là, trừ khi họ làm việc như một lập trình viên, nhưng ngay cả như vậy, chúng ta đều ở trong lĩnh vực con người. Và những câu hỏi của bạn thực sự xoay quanh việc, tầm quan trọng của việc kết nối là gì? Tầm quan trọng của việc kết nối một cách đúng đắn? Và sau đó, làm thế nào chúng ta duy trì những kết nối đó? Và chúng ta đã nói về điều này, tầm quan trọng của ngôn ngữ không lời để giao tiếp, tôi tin tưởng bạn, tôi coi trọng bạn, tôi quan tâm đến bạn và tất cả những điều đó. Nhưng sau đó tạo ra sự thoải mái tâm lý cho phép chúng ta có thời gian dài bên nhau, rằng các mối quan hệ là vô giá. Tôi nghĩ rằng đó là bài học lớn nhất. Mỗi khi tôi đi đâu, tôi đều nói, chúng ta đang ở trong lĩnh vực con người. Và tôi nghĩ bạn là một hình mẫu trong việc thể hiện những gì bạn có thể đạt được, chỉ cần bạn có điều đó. Đó là một lời khen tuyệt vời. Cảm ơn bạn rất nhiều. Chúng tôi có một truyền thống kết thúc nơi khách mời cuối cùng để lại một câu hỏi cho khách mời tiếp theo, mà không biết họ sẽ để lại cho ai. Và câu hỏi mà đã để lại cho bạn là… Hmm, thú vị. Mọi người nói gì về điều họ thích ở bạn? Tôi nghĩ điều đó thật dễ dàng. Và nó dễ dàng vì tôi nghe thấy điều đó rất thường xuyên, và họ nói, bạn thật gần gũi. Tôi nghĩ họ thấy hình ảnh của tôi, bạn biết đấy, nơi tôi trông có vẻ nghiêm khắc, hoặc họ nghĩ về một đặc vụ FBI. Và mọi nơi tôi đến trên thế giới, họ nói, bạn trông thật bình thường, bạn trông gần gũi. Và tôi luôn cố gắng làm cho bản thân mình trở nên gần gũi. Dù bạn là một sinh viên, một bảo vệ an ninh, hay bất cứ ai khác, tôi luôn sẵn sàng tiếp cận. Tôi luôn gần gũi. Và tôi đối xử với mọi người như nhau. Joe, cảm ơn bạn. Đây là một thời gian thật sự thú vị mà chúng ta đang sống. Chúng ta đã nói về điều đó một chút trước khi bắt đầu. Chúng ta số hóa hơn bao giờ hết. Chúng ta sống sau những màn hình. Và kết nối giờ đây có phần như một nghệ thuật đã mất. Và đó là lý do tại sao mọi người hiện nay, tôi nghĩ, một phần, rất háo hức học hỏi cách kết nối tốt hơn, làm thế nào để không bị hiểu nhầm, và làm thế nào để giao tiếp những gì họ thực sự cảm thấy. Bởi vì điều đó không phải là thứ mà giờ đây đến một cách tự nhiên đối với thế hệ bị số hóa từ khi sinh ra. Và đó là điều mà tôi nghĩ công việc của bạn thực hiện rất sâu sắc. Nó giống như đưa chúng ta trở lại điều gì đó về con người, dòng chảy mà thông qua nhân loại học và sự hiểu biết về quá trình tiến hóa của chúng ta và nơi mọi thứ bắt nguồn cũng là một yếu tố củng cố cho mọi thứ bạn nói. Và điều đó vô cùng quan trọng. Và nó rất mạnh mẽ. Tôi đã thấy điều đó qua các video mà bạn đã tham gia và các cuộc phỏng vấn mà bạn đã thực hiện. Chúng thực sự rất mạnh mẽ. Và đó là bởi vì mọi người rất khát khao thông tin này. Và nhiều vấn đề mà chúng ta thường gặp trong cuộc sống xuất phát từ việc thiếu hiệu quả trong việc giao tiếp với người khác những gì chúng ta cảm thấy và những gì chúng ta thực sự nghĩ. Có thể vì chúng ta chưa học, nhưng cũng có thể vì chúng ta đang học một hành vi khác. Và có thể chúng ta đang trở nên cá nhân hơn và rút lui hơn và bị mắc kẹt sau những màn hình. Vì vậy, tôi thực sự khen ngợi bạn vì công việc mà bạn đang thực hiện. Và tôi rất khuyến khích mọi người đi đọc những cuốn sách này. Có rất nhiều cuốn. Nhưng tôi sẽ liên kết tất cả chúng dưới đây và với một chút tóm tắt để bạn có thể quyết định cuốn nào phù hợp nhất với bạn. Tôi đã đọc một vài cuốn. Một trong những cuốn tôi yêu thích là cuốn xuất sắc. Nó rất dễ tiếp cận. Nhưng tất cả chúng đều rất tốt ở các khía cạnh khác nhau tùy thuộc vào điều bạn đang tìm kiếm trong cuộc sống của mình. Cho dù đó là ngôn ngữ cơ thể, cho dù bạn chỉ là một người muốn nghe thêm về việc săn lùng khủng bố hay hiểu tâm lý học tội phạm hay muốn biết nhiều hơn về FBI và cuộc sống mà bạn đã sống. Vì vậy, tôi sẽ liên kết tất cả chúng bên dưới. Có điều gì mà chúng ta đã bỏ lỡ không? Chà, vợ tôi sẽ nói với tôi, xin hãy lịch sự và nói rằng nếu họ có thể đề cập đến việc tôi có một kênh YouTube để nói về nhiều điều này. Chỉ cần truy cập joenavarro.net và có một liên kết đến kênh YouTube của tôi, mà bạn sẽ nghĩ rằng tôi lẽ ra sẽ biết. Chúng tôi sẽ liên kết nó bên dưới nếu bạn có thể thấy. Tôi không biết. Nhưng tôi muốn cảm ơn bạn vì những gì bạn đã làm.
    Bạn sẽ nhận ra một ngày nào đó, như tôi đã nhận ra, rằng bạn đang giúp thay đổi cuộc sống mặc dù điều đó không phải là ý định của bạn. Ý định của bạn có lẽ là để giáo dục. 10 năm sau, 20 năm sau, hoặc như tôi mới thấy từ 40 năm sau, sẽ có ai đó viết cho bạn và nói rằng điều gì đó bạn đã nói hoặc tấm gương của bạn đã ảnh hưởng đến họ và đã thay đổi cuộc sống của họ. Và bạn sẽ nói, wow, tôi chưa từng nghĩ về điều đó. Và đó chính là điều bạn đã làm. Và bạn sẽ nhận ra điều đó một ngày nào đó. Cảm ơn bạn. Ý tôi là, đây cũng là điều bạn đang làm. Joe, cảm ơn bạn đã rộng lượng với thời gian của mình. Tôi thực sự rất trân trọng điều đó. Thật là vinh dự khi gặp bạn. Và tôi rất háo hức để hoàn thành phần còn lại của những cuốn sách của bạn và khám phá thêm trên kênh YouTube của bạn, mà tôi sẽ liên kết bên dưới. Bạn cũng nói rất nhiều. Bạn làm việc nhiều với các công ty và tổ chức. Và nếu mọi người muốn liên lạc với bạn, họ nên vào trang web của bạn và gửi email cho bạn ở đó. Chắc chắn rồi. Chỉ cần thông qua trang web và chúng tôi sẽ xử lý. Và tôi rất vui được chia sẻ hành trình kiến thức đó với bất cứ ai quan tâm. Tôi sẽ để bạn biết một chút bí mật. Bạn có thể sẽ nghĩ tôi và nhóm của tôi hơi kỳ quặc. Nhưng tôi vẫn nhớ đến ngày hôm nay khi Jemima từ nhóm của tôi đăng trên Slack rằng cô ấy đã thay đổi mùi hương trong studio này. Ngay sau khi cô ấy đăng, toàn bộ văn phòng đã vỗ tay trong kênh Slack của chúng tôi. Và điều này có thể nghe có vẻ điên rồ, nhưng tại Diary of a CEO, đây là loại cải tiến 1% mà chúng tôi thực hiện trong chương trình của mình. Và đó là lý do chương trình lại như vậy. Bằng cách hiểu sức mạnh của việc tích lũy 1%, bạn thực sự có thể thay đổi kết quả trong cuộc sống của mình. Nó không phải là về những biến đổi mạnh mẽ hay chiến thắng nhanh chóng. Mà là về những hành động nhỏ, nhất quán mang lại thay đổi lâu dài trong kết quả của bạn. Vậy là hai năm trước, chúng tôi đã bắt đầu quá trình tạo ra cuốn nhật ký xinh đẹp này. Và nó thực sự rất đẹp. Bên trong có nhiều hình ảnh, nhiều nguồn cảm hứng và động lực nữa. Một số yếu tố tương tác. Và mục đích của cuốn nhật ký này là giúp bạn xác định, duy trì tập trung vào, phát triển sự nhất quán với 1% cuối cùng sẽ thay đổi cuộc sống của bạn. Vì vậy, nếu bạn muốn một cuốn cho bản thân hoặc cho một người bạn hoặc cho một đồng nghiệp hoặc cho đội của bạn, hãy đến với thediary.com ngay bây giờ. Tôi sẽ liên kết nó bên dưới. Hẹn gặp lại bạn lần sau.
    我在FBI工作了25年。我曾與間諜和這個國家的敵人面對面,學到了很多關於人類行為的知識。想象一下,能夠更快地讀懂其他人和情況。這在你的生活中會給你帶來巨大的優勢。我想聽到所有的事情。因此,我所教授的第一件事之一是……喬·納瓦羅是前FBI特工,現在是一位享譽全球的身體語言專家。他幫助人們解碼身體語言,以改善溝通、信任和影響力。我在談判中發現的一件事情是,我們作為人類,用臉部的表情進行大量的交流。例如,當我們不理解某件事情時,我們會把眉頭緊皺在一起。而當我們聽到一些我們不喜歡的事情時,嘴唇的血液實際上會開始流失,然後我們會開始緊閉嘴唇。另一種行為是當缺乏信心和不安全感時,人們會馬上……所以一旦我們理解這些行為,你就能掌控任何情況。信心。這是與生俱來的嗎?還是你認為信心可以被訓練?絕對可以被訓練。所以FBI實際上教信心。有很多策略。其中一種是我們可以使用的最強大的手勢。你會發現馬斯克經常這樣做。但我告訴人們,學習信心的最簡單方法是……喬,我們實際上錄了我和你見面時的互動。我這裡有那段視頻。所以你立刻做的一件事是……不要這樣做。這可不行。在我們回到這集之前,先來個快速的插曲。請給我30秒的時間。我想說兩件事。第一件是非常感謝你們一週又一週收聽和關注這個節目。對我們所有人來說,這意義重大。這真的是一個我們從未想過的夢想,也無法想象會達到這個地步。但第二件事是,這是一個讓我們覺得才剛剛起步的夢想。如果你喜歡我們在這裡的所作所為,請加入那24%定期收聽這個播客的人,並在這個應用上關注我們。我會給你們一個承諾。我會盡我所能,讓這個節目變得盡善盡美,現在和未來。我們將會邀請你們想要我去訪談的嘉賓。我們會繼續保持所有你們喜愛的這個節目的內容。謝謝。非常感謝。回到節目中。喬,如果有人在街上問你,並希望得到兩句話的回答,你是誰,你花了一生在做什麼?你會如何回答這個問題?用一句話來說,就是教學。我認為我一生都在教學。即使在1984年我進入FBI的時候,我的工作大部分都是作為FBI特工,調查犯罪,追捕間諜等等。但你知道,我在1978年便入職了。但早在84年,我就已經開始教學。我喜歡當人們明白並看到某種行為時。他們理解我們為什麼做某些事情的基礎。我舉個例子。有時候你會來到一個可怕的現場,人們立刻會驚叫。他們吸一口氣,然後捂住嘴巴。或者在得分板上只有一點差距,人們就是這樣,卻不懂情況的真相。這就像我們曾經被獅子和老虎包圍,我們學會捂住嘴巴,以免我們的呼吸暴露,以便它們無法找到我們。因此,人類的身體有一些捷徑。我應該說是人類的大腦。它們被稱為啟發式思維。所以其中一種就是停滯不前。所以當我們聽到大聲聲音或看到掠食者或狗時,我們會僵住。顯然,三十萬年前奔跑的誰都受到了傷害。因此,我們擁有這些捷徑。分享為什麼我們有這些行為總是讓我感到著迷。你會意識到你剛吸了一口氣,因此你可以屏住呼吸。然後我們捂住呼吸,以免被掠食者嗅到。我花時間寫書。我花時間在各種不同的環境中教學,無論是在舞台上還是在網路上的其他環境。你給人們的是什麼?這是一個深刻的問題,我想我沒有被問過。我認為最簡單的答案是知識,是他們可能沒有時間獲得的知識。我在非常貧困的環境中長大。我是一名來自古巴的難民,我生活在邁阿密的一個主要是老年人的地區。因此我經常獨處。我會翻垃圾箱收集可閱讀的東西。正是這些知識讓我有幸獲得了閱讀的熱情。我遇到很多人,尚未享受到這種福利。也許他們對閱讀和學習沒有熱愛。我自認為,我擁有這些知識。我曾經和恐怖分子、間諜、持有火箭筒的這個國家的敵人坐在一起。而其他人從未有過這樣的機會。我從中學到了很多,還有來自我的閱讀。所以為什麼不分享呢?讓他們的生活稍微輕鬆一些。當你說讓他們的生活稍微輕鬆一些時,如果我能接受你的知識,我的生活會如何變得更好?我會如何變得更有生產力?這是一個很好的問題。想象一下,能夠提前感知事物,因為你能更快地讀懂其他人和情況。大多數人看到一種行為,會坐在那裡思考:他們對我不滿嗎?他們在開我玩笑嗎?或者其他任何事。然而想象一下能夠用更快的速度看待某事並解析它,讓你能將注意力轉向其他事情。我們大多數人將面部解構為額頭、眼睛、耳朵等等。但想象一下能夠一次性評估整個臉、肩膀、手,所有一切,並從這些信息中推斷。這會給你帶來巨大的優勢。
    在談判中,還需要能夠讀懂他人。同時,我們卻忘了別人也在讀我們。我們希望傳達什麼樣的印象?如果我能獲得你所提供的所有知識,並將其實施,那麼你認為我生活中的哪些領域會改善?首先,是在你自己內心,例如,能夠自我評估。如果假設你有憤怒問題,或者你容易觸發情緒,那麼,我該如何應對呢?首先,你要評估一下,發生了什麼事?你的胃不舒服,胸部緊繃,情緒開始波動。那麼我該怎麼做呢?大多數人並沒有接受過這方面的教育。這只是其中一部分。例如,如何與你的孩子更有效地溝通。舉個簡單的例子,雖然沒有人教過這一點,但我可以告訴你,如果你像一位訓練指導員一樣站在孩子面前,脖子僵硬,你會得到非常不同的反應。如果你稍微站遠一點,並傾斜你的頭,那麼你與孩子之間的溝通會截然不同。單單傾斜頭部就能增強溝通效果,與你直接站在他們面前的情況大相徑庭。那麼,這對現實生活有什麼應用呢?實際上,你可以改變別人願意給你的面對面時間。假設你只有兩分鐘的時間,你想通過傾斜頭部來延長這段時間。我們已經證明,只要我們表現得放鬆,沒有 agenda,願意傾聽,就能改變別人願意花多少時間與你面對面。這樣的應用可以變得具有變革性。如果你應用這些知識,某些人可能會看重知識卻不去實踐,但你可以在家中、工作中或談判中使用它。例如,我所教授的一個方面是時間的價值,時間實際上可以作為一種非語言溝通。當我談論非語言時,我所指的是任何傳達信息但不使用詞語的方式。那麼,你可以利用時間作為非語言來表達”我在掌控”。無論是誰主導和控制時間,誰就掌控全局。因此,即使我改變信息的傳遞方式,減慢節奏,你在談判中也已經開始掌控了。當你正確執行這一點時,這是一件很美妙的事情。因此有許多應用。顯然,像你一樣,你基本上是在研究人類行為。你是一個商業人士,但你其實真正從事的是與人相關的工作。當我們了解需求時,有些是生物上的,有些是需求、渴望、偏好,還有別人的偏好,他們喜歡如何接收這些信息?他們喜歡喝什麼樣的咖啡?所有這些都很重要。但他們又恐懼什麼呢?大多數人不會告訴你他們有恐懼。他們會說,哦,我對那件事有點擔心,或者我不確定這是否是一項好的投資,或者我們需要做一些盡職調查。但大腦只認識恐懼。一旦你理解這一點,這會給你帶來更大的空間,以更有效地追求你有興趣做的事情,以及你的職業生涯。沒錯。你在FBI工作超過30年,是嗎?我在執法機構工作了30年,其中在FBI工作了25年,主要專注於反諜報領域。但在FBI,你的角色不止一個。我也是一名飛行員,因此我負責監控飛行。我還是一支SWAT隊的指揮官。所以我進行SWAT的工作,並實際與來自倫敦的SAS合作。然後我還參加了行為分析計劃。 我們利用這一技能來抓捕間諜。什麼是行為分析計劃?在1989年和1990年,FBI開發了一個非常秘密的程序,分析的不是死人,而是我們如何利用人類行為來抓捕間諜、捕捉恐怖分子。我們一旦抓住他們,就要如何進入他們的心靈。要如何讓他們告訴我們他們的計劃與目的等等。因此,我們創建了這個計劃。我和另外五名特工從12000名FBI特工中被選中,成為這個新行為分析程序的一部分,本來應該是保密的,但意外地泄露了。我們的工作是評估國家安全威脅,然後看看如何利用我們對人類行為的知識來對抗這些威脅。所以當你說你的許多工作是抓捕間諜時,我們大多數人只從《詹姆斯·龐德》及其他類似的媒體上聽說過間諜。因此我們其實並不了解間諜的現實。假設我完全裝傻一會兒,其他國家派人進入其他國家,比如美國、英國、澳大利亞、加拿大,這是為了做什麼呢?每個國家都有其利益。有很多是通過外交獲得的,而很多則是通過我們所稱的間諜行為獲得的。因此,這與電視和電影裡的情節完全不同。一些國家,特別是敵對國家,派遣我們所稱的敵對情報官員,通常假裝成外交官,但經常假裝成學生、科學家或商人。他們的工作是獲取特定領域的知識,包括軍事知識、科學與研究、意圖和計劃,軍事意圖和計劃。或者他們可能對例如阿根廷今年的小麥生產量感興趣,因為這可能影響全球穀物的價格。因此,商業間諜行為也是如此。因此,每個國家都在努力防範,以便確定,誰在這裡試圖進行間諜活動。所以這就是我們所做的。這是反諜報工作。這是間諜行為。這和電影裡的情節完全不同。我們不會從建築物上跳下來。
    雖然我們有時會這樣做,但這並沒有詹姆斯·邦德那樣光鮮亮麗。
    那你以前曾經抓過間諜嗎?
    我抓過。
    我逮捕過間諜,多位間諜。
    給我一個在法庭上你識別的最有趣的間諜例子。
    他們來這裡做什麼?
    他們從哪個國家來的?
    結果發現,這是一個美國人,因為我們也有所謂的變節者。
    以羅德里克·詹姆斯·拉姆齊為例,他在1989年,我被要求去面談,因為我們認為他是德國發生某件事情的證人。
    他是一名前陸軍軍士,被軍方開除。
    軍方想查明他是否知道一些失踪文件的事情,是否見過什麼。
    在我對他的面談中,我再重申一次,我認為他是證人,他在家裡抽著香煙。
    我提到過一個曾在那個基地的人名,但該人正受到德國當局的調查。
    事實上,是由聯邦刑事警察局調查,這相當於美國的FBI。
    他沒有理由對此有反應。
    這只是個名字。
    但當我提到這個名字時,他的香煙抖了一下。
    我對人類行為有一定了解,知道這種生理變化肯定是由某些重要的事情引起的。
    為什麼一個名字會影響他?
    於是我以科學方法詢問他另外20分鐘的其他事情。
    然後我再次提到了那個名字。
    果然,他的香煙又抖了一下。
    到那時,我已經確信有某種陰險的情況。
    結果德國人逮捕了康拉德。
    康拉德就在那裡。
    克萊德·康拉德。
    那就是受到懷疑的那個人。
    而我當時正在面談的羅德·拉姆齊並不是。
    於是我結束了那次面談,說服我的上司繼續與羅德·拉姆齊交談。
    這導致了一項長達十年的調查,以及逮捕了三、四、五、六、七名其他個體。
    所以那個香煙抖動的羅德·拉姆齊是,他在間諜活動中針對美國嗎?
    他在做的事情,這是一個好問題,請原諒我沒有解釋。
    當他在軍隊服役時,他和克萊德·李·康拉德正在竊取軍事機密。
    從哪裡?
    從美國陸軍。
    他們正在竊取美國陸軍的機密,然後通過匈牙利情報局將其出售給蘇聯。
    所以他是美國的背叛者。
    所以他是個叛徒。
    這往往是任何國家的最大問題,就是內部的叛徒。
    他們將間諜活動提升到了工業化的程度。
    我指的是他們實際上不再使用35毫米相機來拍攝文件。
    他們實際上在拍攝視頻,以便加速處理數千頁的內容。
    這是美國歷史上最具破壞性的間諜案件,因為他們已經洩漏了美國的核發射密碼,這在德國進行。
    這使得整個西歐都暴露於風險之中。
    核發射密碼是什麼?
    是的。
    那是什麼?
    我們世界各地的核資產由兩個部分控制。
    有一個叫做許可行動鏈的東西,這就像每個裝置上的最後安全鎖。
    然後是發射碼,它表示有權限使用這種武器。
    所以拉姆齊能夠竊取實際的核發射密碼。
    這是一張卡。
    它由一種我無法描述的特殊材料製成。
    它由特殊金屬和塑料以及其他材料製成。
    他們所做的事情的固有危險在於,他們並不能啟動發射。
    這只能在國家指揮當局層面啟動。
    但如果這個發射碼被洩漏並交給當時的蘇聯,這是在1989年之前,那麼外國敵對情報機構就可以拿到它並進行複製,但在裡面放錯號碼。
    通過放錯號碼,如果它在一個金字塔結構中,並且放置得足夠高,對吧?
    假設你控制著整個東海岸。
    也許你不想為俄羅斯間諜活動,但以10萬美元的報酬,假設你願意把這個放進去,並把那裡的取出。
    好吧,所以也許這在某種程度上讓你良心不安減輕了一些。
    這樣你基本上,如果是金字塔結構的話,你可以癱瘓其下的一切。
    好吧,所以某人可能已經更改了密碼,放了假的進去,這意味著這將不再起作用。
    在最高層級下,然後什麼都無法運行,如果你在最高層級進行訪問。
    他們入獄了嗎?
    哦,是的。
    是的。
    那位香煙抖動的家進監獄了。
    33年。
    讓我最後這樣說。
    這起案件使西歐及美國的安全受到了威脅。
    在這起案件中作證的將軍說,若真的爆發敵對行動,西方的失敗在三天內是板上釘釘的。
    這是如此具毀滅性的事件。
    是的,讓這件事情沉澱一下。
    那是他的話。
    因為這些人所造成的損害,西方的失敗將是無可避免的。
    並非所有案件在逮捕間諜方面都如此顯著。
    所以我在讀另一個案例時,發現你因為一個男人握花的方式而抓住了他。
    是的。
    你知道,很多時候這完全依賴於行為。
    你知道,擔心某人看手錶的頻率。
    但也許當他們執行任務的時候,他們看手錶的頻率更高。
    我們拍攝了這個人,他被我們稱為“非法”間諜。
    在間諜術語中,“非法”是指某人神奇地出現在美國,假裝自己是一個美國人,一直都是美國人,就像電視劇《美國人》一樣。
    但我們有來自我們某個姊妹機構的線索,來自另一個國家,說我們認為這個人可能是某個假裝成美國人的人,你需要關注一下。
    我們正在進行,一起把整個團隊聚集在一起,我們六個人。
    我們在看這部電影,你知道,它的拍攝是偶然的,正好是在情人節拍攝的。
    於是我們看到他走進一間花店,又從花店走出來。
    當他走出來時,我就說,他絕對不是美國人。
    你知道,大家都看著我,像是在說, excuse me。
    我說,他不是這裡的人。
    然後他問,怎麼會?
    我說,看看他提著花束的方式。
    美國人提著花束是花束朝上的。
    東歐人則是花束朝下提著。
    而且,他繼續這樣提著。
    所以,我做了一個叫做假設的行為。
    有一天我們攔住了他,我告訴他,你知道,我是FBI的,我問他,想知道我們是怎麼知道的嗎?
    這就是我想要的第一個觸發點,看看他的反應。
    他上當了,並且說,繼續。
    大多數人會說,滾開,走開。
    我說,這就是你提花的方式。
    他的下巴垂了下來,眼皮變得沉重。
    當他在評估他所做的一切時,你知道,他已經練習了所有的東西。
    他的英語非常流利。
    你知道,他聽起來像個中西部人。
    在經過幾個小時的愉快聊天後,他同意跟我們合作並承認了一切。
    他承認了什麼?
    他承認是被一個外國政府派到這裡的。
    他的工作作為一名非法移民是要在美國,扮演美國人。
    大多數人不理解,為什麼一個國家會花那麼多錢來訓練這些人好像是美國人?
    他們不明白的,是他們在這裡的目的是為了當敵對行動爆發時。
    他們可以報告,例如火車運輸,什麼火車在運送武器,哪些機場被用來做什麼用途。
    他後來告訴我們,他們經常會獲得一些爆炸物的藏匿物,這樣他們就能夠摧毀某些任何導彈無法做到的東西。
    所以這就是他們在美國藏匿的角色。
    這不是為了從事間諜活動。
    而是在敵對行動爆發時能夠隨時在這裡。
    所以你讓他轉而和FBI合作?
    正確。
    那這意味著他不會受到懲罰?
    嗯,他不會受到懲罰,因為他除了移民違規外並沒有犯下任何罪行。
    但他能夠向我們透露的內容,簡直令人震驚。
    是哪個國家?
    我不能說。
    但顯然,他們必須有足夠的資金和足夠的興趣來執行這樣的行動。
    如果你必須猜測,住在我們中間有多少人是被外國派來的間諜,你認為會有多少?
    好吧,讓我們先定義一下。
    你知道,如果他們是敵對情報人員,那麼從外交人員中最少可以有3%的比例,最多曾經是蘇聯,其85%的外交人員都在進行間諜活動。
    我想,這是數字,所以你有這些。
    那麼,如果你是指有多少非法移民,我會說至少在英國有至少兩打,在法國可能有一打。
    而且,你知道,鑒於我們跨越五個時區,在美國會有一整批、成群的他們。
    我相信英國只有跨越一個。
    我想這部分是因為我在閱讀一些資料的時候,看到許多非法移民穿越美國南部邊境,其中許多人是中國人。
    還有一篇文章在質疑這是否可能是一個故意的行為,就是為了將非法中國人帶入美國以便於未來的某種目的。
    你知道,大的主張需要大的證據,但我還沒有看到這樣的證據。
    根據我的經驗,中國的情報機構更傾向於使用學生和科學家。
    我們在這裡大約有80,000名中國學生。
    我知道,例如在80年代初和90年代初,他們會獲得津貼。
    我一直印象深刻的是,他們會給予餐飲津貼,但圖書館複印的津貼卻非常大。
    我們在FBI稱之為線索。
    所以他們會獲得150美元作為飲食津貼,但會獲得數千美元用于能夠從圖書館抄寫更多的東西。
    對於他們來說,對於任何國家,派遣學生來這裡,並在工程學或其他相關領域就讀,這是更容易的。
    在這個肢體語言的主題上,存在著激烈的爭論,因為有些人說肢體語言確實給我們提供了線索。
    有些人則說沒有提供線索,因為存在文化差異。
    肢體語言重要嗎?
    好吧,讓我回答你剛才問的問題。
    首先,肢體語言是極其重要的,因為我們出生時沒有講話的能力。
    所以我們必須去理解面前的嬰兒。
    如果說肢體語言A,不重要或是主觀解釋,我會說這在世界各地的精通此道的人中是微不足道的情緒。
    我會說明為什麼。
    一個嬰兒出生時沒有講話的能力,但母親很快就會通過非語言的方式了解到這個孩子是否肚子痛,是否需要只是得到安慰,是否感到冷或熱等等。
    這裡有很多垃圾,那可能是我能用來形容肢體語言中更乾淨的字眼,這意味著那個或其他。
    但我們隨時都極其準備去溝通,無論我們是否感到舒適,是否自信或對問題的理解。
    我們之所以必須進化出這樣的能力,恰恰是因為我們總是被捕食者包圍。
    例如,史蒂芬,當你有疑問或希望跟進我問的問題時,你會非常巧妙地使用眼睛。
    你皺起了眉頭。
    一隻眼睛升起,另一隻則下降。
    你是個容易讀懂的人。
    所以我會隨之提供更多信息。
    你不需要教我這個。
    現在,我想爭辯的是,我是否看到了限制?
    我是否看到了輕視或鄙視?
    嗯,這是個愚蠢的論點。
    我們並不是進化出來以獲得完美的答案。
    進化是關於成功的近似。
    換句話說,如果我能在75%到80%的時間內準確,這實際上已經足夠好了。
    已經足夠好了。
    所以我教的是,你看到的是舒適還是不適,心理上、身體上等等?
    在心理學中,我是否看到的是正向價值還是負向價值?
    平衡,你明白嗎?
    你在皺眉頭。
    價值的意思是什麼?
    價值實際上是指是否平衡,或是有多少電流朝這個方向或那個方向流動。
    那麼它的價值是什麼呢?
    如果某件事是正向價值的,那意味著什麼?
    正向價值的話,你會看到違反重力的行為。
    你會看到強調。
    你會看到很多幽默、敏捷和廣泛的手勢等等。
    如果是負向價值的,則會是約束。
    你會看到皺眉頭。
    你會看到嘴唇收緊、變小。
    你會看到很多面部觸碰。
    我不知道,對吧?
    所有這些安撫者。
    所以我認為不要再尋求完美了。
    事實上,哈佛的安巴迪博士,不幸的是她已經去世,她發現我們人類在彼此評估中會在75%的時間內準確。
    這是一個非凡的數字。
    她的研究非常廣泛。
    你可以查找她的研究。
    這一切都是在尋找她所稱的薄切評估的指導下進行的。
    薄切評估,你們所有的觀眾都應該知道。
    因為它告訴我們,僅僅三毫秒,我們實際上就能對彼此做出相當不錯的評估。
    而在三毫秒內,我們的準確度達到75%。
    是的。
    所以他們做了幾項實驗。
    他們讓人們進去,如同通過打開教室的門來觀看一位老師,觀看她幾秒鐘後再關上門。
    他們評價那位老師的評分與那些整個學期坐在教室裡的人相同。
    在…
    她是一位好老師嗎?
    她是一位溫暖的老師嗎?
    她是一位有同理心的老師嗎?
    她是一位勝任的老師嗎?
    等等。
    你摸著你的臉,因為裡面有許多不可置信的成分。
    你必須知道,這項實驗在很多領域中反覆進行。
    當你說出這句話時,我在想,真是封殺。
    像,我在想,如果有人這麼快地讀懂你,我在想留下不好的第一印象是多麼容易。
    好吧,你知道,當我開始研究肢體語言的時候,正式是在1971年,對學校的學業毫無興趣。
    所以我創建了自己的學習計劃。
    所以當我在1971年開始研究肢體語言時,我記得人們說,最初的20分鐘是給人留下印象最重要的時刻。
    然後幾年後變成了15分鐘。
    到了1980年代,有人說,哦,最初的四分鐘。
    等等,等一下。
    那是古老的信息。
    我們現在知道,這一評估在最初的三毫秒內已經完成。
    這比你的眨眼速度還快。
    而且你可以開始做一些事情做得不好,開始在那段時間內對他人產生負面影響,因為潛意識評估他人的速度要快得多。
    順便說一下,我沒有提到這點。
    甚至在我們出生之前,我們就在評估周圍的世界,根據周圍的噪音、母親的語音節奏進行評估,這是為了生存的目的,因此在子宮中的嬰兒開始評估周圍的世界,以至於當那位嬰兒出生時,你可以查看研究,嬰兒會以母語作為模仿,從而,研究人員發現,德國母親的嬰兒與法國嬰兒的哭聲是不同的,會有不同的音律。
    這是主導的,以便我們能更好地適應。
    而這與商業直接相關,因為同步即是和諧。
    我們同步的越快,我們就能越快地達到和諧。
    所以我們是預先編程好的。
    如果你的觀眾對此感興趣,他們可以查找有關嬰兒哭聲的音律的研究。
    那麼,如何實現同步呢?
    所以如果同步等於和諧,即如果我們彼此同步,那麼在商業或生活等方面,我們就會和諧一致。
    對。
    那麼,當我遇到某人時,我該如何與他同步呢?
    首先,在遠處,如果我看到你在走廊上走過來,然後你說,
    嘿,喬,你知道的,我說,史蒂夫,你好嗎?
    對吧?
    我在和你鏡像。
    你知道的,這與1960年代初卡爾·羅傑斯的工作有關。
    他發現同步會讓我們進入一種綁定的心理狀態,你看看你用手打招呼並揚起你的眉毛,嘿,那就發出強烈的訊息。
    所以如果我這樣做,你可以想像如果你這樣跟我打招呼,而我卻說,嗯,你好嗎?
    是的。
    這就像,我們完全不和諧。
    我們完全不同步。
    所以我們從非語言開始。
    例如,從服裝開始。
    你知道,如果你去一個會議,我們可能會穿得一樣,或者彼此接近。
    我們現在看看我們的手勢。
    我們實際上在鏡像彼此的手勢,甚至連我們的拇指都是完全一樣的方向。
    為什麼?
    因為我們對彼此感到舒適。
    如果我們很好的同步,我們會向前傾斜。
    到你甚至可以與個體合作,使他們冷靜下來,或讓他們開始欣賞,讓我們說,在談判中,更加開放心態。
    如果人們能夠鏡像你的行為,他們會變得更加接受。
    所以,如果人們能夠鏡像你的行為,他們會變得更加接受。
    如果我讓你模仿我的行為,那麼你會更能接受我所說的話。
    這是你的意思嗎?
    一般來說,我們不能像在玩遊戲一樣彼此模仿。
    對,對,對。
    這變得荒謬。
    但如果你在尖叫而我保持冷靜,那我們就無法進行談判。
    是的。
    這根本不會發生。
    舉例來說,你我在談話中可能做得相當好,互相模仿。
    如果我們能這樣交談,成功的可能性、面對面的時間以及達成更多目標的機會會更高,而不是突然之間我決定側坐、翹起腳來並靠在手肘上。
    單靠這個手勢,儘管它是種舒適的表現,但並沒有使我們達到同步。
    我所發現的一切是,即使在我與恐怖分子交談時,即使是那些非常痛恨我的恐怖分子,只要我能讓他們回歸到基本上用相同的方式和詞彙交流的程度,如果他們說「我的家庭」,就不要說「妻子和孩子」。要用「家庭」。
    不要使用專業術語。
    你知道的,如果他們說,「那個價格是多少?」不要回來說,「這的點數是多少?」這不是他們所問的。這是一個很好的方式來證明你沒有在聽。
    我總是強調的另一件事是,很多年來人們說,試著減少所有情感,以免干擾。
    這不是我們進化的方式。這絕對不是我們進化的方式。
    我們進化是為了處理情感,因為情感讓我們活下來。
    當我們的杏仁核感受到威脅時,它就是為了應對這一點。而任何負面情緒都會突出表現。
    這是我教授的第一件事。如果它真的是負面的,它會突出。我們優先評估這些。我們首先處理這個。
    而在商業中,我們經常看到的情況是,你知道,有些人很難找到你的地點。他們很難停車。然後他們不得不去找你的接待員,而接待員正在打電話,花了大約七分鐘才說「早安」。
    而當他們說的時候,卻沒有任何熱情。然後他們還得通過安檢,然後乘坐擁擠的電梯,然後最終到達你的辦公室。
    而你想讓他們毫不費力地直接進入會議,而不帶著那所有積累的負面情緒。這不是人類進化的方式。這絕對不是我們這個物種進化的方式。
    我們的物種進化是為了避免衝突,通過首先處理這一點來減少這些情緒。這就是講故事的部分起源,我們來到這裡說,「你知道,我追逐它。我能攻擊自己,然後我反擊,你知道的。」
    然後我們經過整個故事講述,這具有神話般的比例和神話般的特徵,作為原型。如果你 subscribe 佛洛伊德心理學,我經常使用的論點是這個。
    有多少人在爭論中,30分鐘後,你記住了所有你應該說的聰明話?
    我們都有。因為情感大腦劫持了神經活動。
    如果你想讓人們發揮最佳狀態,如果你想讓關係達到最佳狀態,就要宣洩這些情感。把它表達出來。給它時間。
    好吧。而且是的,你必須投入這些時間,然後再向前進,以便處理交易、業務等等。
    你幾次提到我所展現的不同類型的肢體語言,幫助你理解我的想法和感受。
    是的。
    我想剛才你提到的 glabula。這讓我想到了我在你的作品中讀到的有關眉頭緊皺的內容。
    對。
    什麼是眉頭緊皺?
    你眼睛之間這小區域叫做 glabella。
    glabella 很棒,因為大約在,我見過寶寶的時候有三、四天大。但很早我們就開始皺眉頭。
    換句話說,當我們有疑慮、不喜歡某個東西或不理解某個東西時,我們就會將這個部位緊皺在一起。因此我們皺了 glabella。有些人稱其為眉頭緊皺,因為我們今天有更好看的眉毛,而不像以前那樣毛躁的眉毛了。它們不會像以前那樣合在一起。
    所以很多表達出「我不理解」的表情,我們會使用微皺的眼睛和皺眉的 glabella。你知道,我們有時會觸碰臉部或抓癢自己的臉。
    我曾觀察到的47秒大的嬰兒。如果你在新生嬰兒面前照射光線,他會皺起下巴,因為他不喜歡這樣。在我的報告中,我有一個47歲的男人和一個47秒大的嬰兒,相同的時候發生相同的反應,當他們聽到不喜歡的東西。
    所以,在事實上,我們開始用臉部溝通得相當多。
    那麼眼瞼觸碰呢?
    對。
    所以很長一段時間,包括在我的一些寫作中,理論是很多人聽到壞消息時會掩住自己的眼睛或觸碰自己的眼睛。
    你說:「嘿,喬,你能幫我這個週末搬家嗎?」 哦,天啊,史蒂夫。對吧?
    你會看到很多這種情況。
    我大約五、六年前開始思考這個問題。於是我參加了一些人體解剖的課程。
    現在我幾乎相信,很多面部觸碰的行為,包括對眼睛的觸碰等等,都是跟第五腦神經和第七腦神經的神經支配有關。
    現在,你的觀眾中有些人可能會覺得這很有趣,那條神經是通往我們的額頭,實際上進入我們的眼瞼等等,而第七條是面部神經,距離到接收的那部分大腦的距離非常短。
    所以我想,你知道,我曾經假設過,我為《心理學今天》寫過文章,很多我們觸碰自己面部和眼睛的原因,哦,不,是因為那個壓力立刻傳到大腦並幫助減輕壓力。
    而且因為神經距離很短,對吧?我們可以按摩我們的腳來達到同樣的效果,但那距離就很遠。
    所以我認為很多臉部接觸,包括觸碰眼睛,都是因為它有能力在壓力來臨時安撫我們自己。順便說一句,這很有趣。1974年,我在大學時感到無聊。當時有一個實驗室,你可以觀察孩子們,並研究他們的遊戲。他們那裡有一些天生失明的孩子,從來沒有看過東西。我第一次看到一個從未見過光明的盲孩,當他們聽到一些不好的消息時,立刻用手遮住眼睛,這讓我感到震驚。這時我意識到,好吧,我們的歷史有240萬年。這是我們基因中硬接線的部分。這是我們舊神經迴路的一部分,正如大衛·吉本斯博士後來教我的那樣。這與感覺有關。因此,我們會如此頻繁地觸碰自己的臉。這通常是負面情緒和自我安撫的一種表現。我認為這是一個不錯的總結。但也要記住,我們在享受美好時光時有多頻繁地觸碰自己的臉。例如,當我在閱讀時,發現自己因為讀得非常快而翻頁。我用左手翻頁,但我會透過觸碰自己的臉來安撫自己,這是一種沉思的姿勢。女性則會玩弄自己的頭髮。整天,我們的大腦都在要求我們做一些事情來促進這種行為。但是當我們遇到壓力時,例如在談判中,當有人提出我們不喜歡的數字時,我們會從觸碰臉部轉變為抓癢臉部,因為大腦在告訴我們,嘿,做一些更強有力的事情,讓我保持在所謂的內穩態。因此,為了回答你的問題,是的,但它也適用於我們真的享受某一時刻的時候。
    至於我們的嘴唇?你剛才談到緊閉的嘴唇等。嘴唇透露了哪些線索?對我來說,嘴唇就像是身體的地震儀。當我們感到舒適和自信時,我們的嘴唇充滿血液,顏色會改變。當我們聽到一些不喜歡的事情時,血液會開始流出嘴唇,它們變得更狹窄,然後我們開始緊閉嘴唇。你知道,如果有人說了我不喜歡的話,我可能會嗯哼一下,對吧?或者我們開始咬嘴唇,因為感到壓力,或者拔嘴唇、拉扯它,做各種事情來安慰它。但是在我們壓力下,嘴唇會表現出很多緊張情緒。因此,這一點也適用於下巴。例如,如果你說了一些我可能不同意的話,我可能會轉動我的下巴,因為當你轉動下巴時,會對顳顎關節施加壓力。這本身就告訴大腦去別的地方,不要對這件事過於掙扎。所以我們總是在做一些身體的事情來對抗大腦可能正在經歷的任何事情。
    告訴我有關超鎖骨凹陷的事情。超鎖骨凹陷,它有其他的名稱。你可以稱之為小脖子凹陷,即在喉嚨底部的這個小區域。這是一個深凹的地方。這是人體中最脆弱的部分。所有空氣、食物、營養、血液、電、氧氣,所有東西都經過這裡。發生的事情是,我在1975年、76年時發現文獻中沒有提到,當人們緊張時,他們會立即遮住脖子,觸碰脖子。你知道,在文獻中,會提到「哦,她緊握珍珠」,對吧?有些男性往往會更強烈地這樣做,因為男性激素的影響。女性則更直接地觸碰超鎖骨凹陷。我發現,當缺乏自信、不安全感、恐懼、焦慮或擔憂時,人們會驚呼,「哦,我的天啊,你看到那個了嗎?」對吧?哦,壞掉了。大家的注意力都集中在脖子的這個小區域。為什麼男性會在緊張時抓住脖子或按摩脖子?順便說一句,在談判中,觸碰脖子是最糟糕的事情,因為你傳遞出的是弱點!任何有自信的人都不會觸碰脖子,你根本不會。你不會靠近脖子。你不會通風流通,因為你在表達的是,你受到了影響,這種通風行為。
    等一下,抱歉,當你說通風,你是指讓自己通風嗎?對。所以這可能是……通風行為是弱點的行為,因為你的體溫在一秒的五十分之一的時間裡改變,而你所透露的是有些消極的東西正在影響你。因此你不這麼做。但這裡有一種行為,觸摸脖子、遮蓋脖子、遮蓋超鎖骨凹陷。還有另一種行為。你知道,之前我們提到過我們被掠食者圍繞。我们其中一種行為就是在聽到噪音時遮住嘴巴或靜止不動。第三種行為是遮蓋脖子。遮蓋脖子,因為大型貓科動物總是會瞄準脖子。因此,大腦沒有一個滿是領帶的衣櫃。它大約只有四種選擇,而這四種行為是精緻的。經過時間的考驗,如果我們遮住嘴巴、遮蓋脖子、不移動,這些行為相當有效。因此,我們不必選擇很多顏色。而且有時你會看到一些人這樣做。在佛羅里達你會看到這種情況,當然我們在颶風過後的十一月也看到過,人們來查看他們的房子,卻用手遮住頭,手舉在這裡。哦,我的天啊。你知道,我們為什麼要這樣做呢?同樣是因為大型貓科動物。這些都是捷徑。這是持久的啟發,告訴我們「哦,不」,對吧?你會說,我們不再被它們所包圍了。好吧,去印度吧。去年有238起攻擊事件。這存在於我們的DNA中。這是為了生存而產生的反應。因此,我們有這些反應。
    但我確實會關注嘴唇和脖子,這些都是獲取信息的好地方。
    我剛剛在想,為什麼你會抱著頭。
    但當你看到某個東西倒下時,你也會抱著頭。
    所以如果你看到一棟樓在地震中倒塌,你會立刻。
    前幾天,有一輛舊車停在一條斜坡上,他們忘了拉手剎,
    我看著它慢慢滑下來。
    我發現自己在教這些東西的時候手一直在這裡舉著。
    不幸的是,車子是在馬路對面,我無法快點過去。
    它沒有造成任何損壞。
    但你會意識到,這些捷徑的存在是有其目的的。
    作為FBI探員,你所做的大部分工作都是某種形式的談判。
    你花了很多時間教導人們如何成為優秀的談判者。
    你剛才提到的談判,我是一個商業人士。
    我經常進行談判,無論是與客戶還是供應商,或進行面試。
    你知道,我不斷地在面試人,這我認為也是一種談判。
    我該如何提高我的談判技巧?
    在進入談判時,我應該考慮哪些事情?
    嗯,你知道,他們警告過我。
    你提出了深奧的問題。
    沒錯,在FBI中,當你試圖說服某人告訴我們真相,並使他們置於危險之中,這僅僅是談判。
    你可能會把它視為面試。
    但正如你所說,即使是一段對話,我也是如此看待談判的,從最簡單的層面來看,就是有目的的有效溝通。
    所以你會說,這樣說太過簡化了。
    我從來沒有聽過這樣的說法。
    那麼,想想看,目的究竟是什麼?
    好吧,我們一會兒會談到這個。
    要麼你有我需要或想要的東西,或者是其他的。
    但一定要有溝通,並且你必須理解我的意思和我的意圖等等。
    所以對我來說,這是一個提醒。
    我剛進入FBI時,一位前輩告訴我,面試並不是為了獲得供詞。
    我瞪大了眼睛看著他,什麼?
    不好意思,你的意思是說不是為了獲得供詞嗎?
    他說,你會得到供詞。
    面試是關於面對面的交流。
    如果你能讓人與你交談兩個小時、三個小時或四個小時。
    在某個案例中,我面試了一個人達12個小時。
    他們會告訴你所有你需要知道的事情,但你必須讓他們留在房間裡。
    所以我總是把談判看作第一步是如何以一種你願意與我交談的方式與你溝通?
    你會想和我談多久以達到那個目的,即交易。
    現在,如果我在評估你的服務,或者在談價格的話,我希望聽聽你要說的,
    我想說出我感興趣的目標,然後調和或處理任何可能存在的差異或問題。
    我認為當我們這樣看待談判時,我們可以說,這意味著我需要提前做很多準備,
    要了解我在和誰溝通?
    我將與誰進行談判?
    談判風格是什麼?
    他們是冷靜的嗎?
    他們會進來嗎?
    他們會把東西丟下嗎?
    我見過那些來自對方的律師進來,根本不打招呼,只是把東西丟下,說,
    我想聽聽數字。
    好吧,那麼我們該如何開始處理這個問題?
    因為來的人如果很具攻擊性,必須處理。
    你該怎麼做?
    你是該迎合他們的攻擊性,還是試著把他們帶回到你的立場?
    好問題。
    最糟糕的事情就是迎合他們。
    你通過掌控時間來主導他們。
    誰掌控時間,誰就掌控一切。
    所以他們進來,把東西丟下。
    所以通常來說,我們會先說,
    哦,你好啊。
    是呀,是呀,讓我們直入主題。
    然後我整個工作團隊知道,我們要讓事情慢下來。
    我們不會以這樣的速度工作,因為如果你以這樣的速度工作,他們就掌控了。
    所以我們慢下來。
    有幾個策略。
    你可以突然變得非常有視覺化,說,好吧,我們要把這些寫下來,
    然後把這些放在這裡。
    我們要放置,然後這是區別,
    有很多策略。但第一件事情是我們必須讓那個人明白,我們希望公平地進行談判。
    但如果認知上總是那個人作為欺凌者或總是掌控一切,你就永遠不會有平等。
    我有很多客戶說,嘿,你知道,我試過了你的所有策略,
    你知道,我面對的這個人就是,他太粗魯了。
    他只是個欺凌者。
    他進來的時候是那樣的,所以我總是問的一個問題是,他是唯一的來源嗎?
    他或她是唯一的來源嗎,第一點?
    第二,您願意容忍這個人多久?
    因為我們忽視了這一點。
    他讓你頭痛。
    每次去見他時你都睡不好。我想到一位客戶。
    每次約他都是緊張的波動,
    那麼你願意容忍這種情況多久?
    如果你願意忍受,那麼,你知道,他不會改變他的風格。
    然後我們進場,改變我們的曝光。
    所以我們不會讓我們所有的員工都面對那種消極情緒。
    我們派出我們的第一個人,說,
    看,這些是數字,我們在這裡合作。
    但有辦法去處理非常有毒的情況。
    但我們不會讓他們隨意而行,或者以為他們是主導者。
    我們以微妙的方式做到這一點。
    我們會稍微擾亂他們的議程。
    或許根據過去的會議,他們的議程是迅速向我們拋出這些問題。然後我們便必須適應這一點。因此,我們必須有經過排練的策略來應對這種情況。你的工作讓我想到的一件事是,在進入談判之前,實際上寫下我的談判目標是多麼重要。否則,你可能會被情感和當下的熱度所沖昏頭腦。是的,你並不是第一個在會議中進行談判卻突然發現自己在做什麼的人。所以,我喜歡以目的明確的有效溝通來進行談判的簡單性。因為很多時候我們參加談判時,首席財務官會在場。有時候,你的首席助理也會在那裡。但你還會有辦公室的法律顧問參加。他們的角色是什麼?而我的角色又是什麼?你知道,一些如此簡單的事情,比如,你要怎麼做?整個時間都盯著你的律師不放嗎?還是你要看著他?我們從研究中知道,當你看著和你同一方講話的人時,會有助於強化他所說的內容。在那位律師表達的最強烈的時刻,比如你之前所做的那樣,你會想要雙手交疊,因為這是我們表達自信的最有力的姿勢。交疊手指就是這樣一個小手勢。交疊手指是前德國總理安格拉·默克爾經常這樣做的。你會看到馬斯克也經常這樣做,史蒂夫·喬布斯的很多照片中也能看到他這樣做。但,你知道,你要為強調的那個時刻保留這個姿勢。因此,你能做的最糟糕的事情就是坐那裡一動不動。事實上,我們有研究,稱為靜臉實驗。最糟糕的事情就是在會議中保持靜止的面孔。你會被視為威脅,會被視為不太可信,會被認為不重要。嘴角下垂,眼睛朝右滾,這就是你的感知。這就是事情的發展。這些實驗首先在嬰兒身上進行發現,如果你拿起一個嬰兒,然後背過身去再回頭並微笑,嬰兒會感到滿足。你可以這樣做好幾次。但在最後一次時,你轉過身來並保持靜止。嬰兒會變得無法控制。他們會發作,對此感到很困擾。所以實驗者就說,嗯,那麼,這對我們的年齡段有什麼影響?所以他們決定用成年人來進行實驗。成年人也會做同樣的事情。如果你和我在交談,面部表情交換,最糟糕的情況就是我坐在那裡。你會覺得這讓人非常不安。是的,大腦感知到了這是一種威脅,你失去了可信度,因為你無法讀懂這個人究竟在想什麼。與其這樣,我寧可你不高興,這樣我至少可以把這放到一個盒子裡。這是一種看待它的方法。我不確定是否有人知道具體的原因。但我們所理解的是,靜臉,如果你在虛擬通話中,想要點頭,想要傾斜你的頭,想要做不同的手勢。但你能做的最糟糕的事情就是保持靜止。然後在談判中,當你和團隊交談時,說,聽着,當我們進去的時候,我不希望任何人只是坐在那裡。我希望有表情,當有人講話時,你要像對方一樣看著他們。但你必須計劃。接下來,我還發現談判者的另一件事,我在FBI做的一件事就是,我總是精心計劃我的面談。誰會第一個進入房間?誰會說什麼?我會坐在哪裡?誰會在什麼時候提供水?因為我需要掌控局面。誰會說什麼?這些都是人們不會考慮到的事情。但在我所接觸的人群中,你必須有一定的優勢。你必須擁有一定的心理槓桿,才能說,聽着,你可能是這個行業最大的製造商,而我只是剛起步。但我並不在這個低位。因此,我會感謝你開始重視我,而我會通過以某種方式進入來做到這一點。你要掌控局面,而且看起來美觀,哦,這很好嗎?他在邀請我喝東西。或者助理或其他人說,你想要一些茶嗎?你想要怎麼喝?等等。我們實際上見證的是,你已經成為了主導者,通過成為典型的父母形象。因為你在提供東西。因為你在提供。而且你掌握著控制權和食物。你知道,人們經常想,嗯,為什麼在上世紀七十年代的瑞典斯德哥爾摩,斯德哥爾摩綜合症如此迅速地在那些銀行搶匪身上發生,他們對受害者產生了如此大的影響,以至於在幾個小時內,受害者便開始為銀行搶匪辯護。這很簡單。他們成為了父母形象,而人質則成為了孩子。因此,我實際上不知道那個故事。發生的事情是,在斯德哥爾摩發生了一起銀行搶劫,搶匪進入並挾持了受害者。最終,他們被解救了。但他們發現,在短短幾個小時內,受害者開始為罪犯辯護。這被稱為斯德哥爾摩綜合症。它向我們展示了搶匪成為了父母的典型形象,而人質則成為了孩子。他們瞬間變得任你擺布。這在家庭暴力案件中是否也會發生?是的,你說對了。
    你表現得非常出色。
    你是第一個立刻就能明白的人。
    這就是為什麼你經常在家庭暴力案件中看到這種情況。
    你可能會想,怎麼會她被打了?
    她怎麼能為他辯護,通常都是這樣的情況?
    你會意識到,哦,我的天,我們好像有一種斯德哥爾摩綜合症,他是供養者。
    他是唯一的工作者或其他等等。
    但,回到談判的話題上,我認為這是我堅持的一件事,那就是如果你進入談判,你至少應該被視為平等的。
    一旦人們開始看不起你,就會讓談話變得非常困難。
    當你考慮進入房間,想想你坐的位置時,如果你走進房間去面談一個恐怖分子,你是想先進去還是想最後進去?
    你是否讓你的團隊先進去,然後你最後再出現?
    你對座位位置有什麼考量?
    對吧?
    因此,我一直堅持的一件事是我要先進入房間。
    所以他們已經在那裡了?
    不,不,不。我們會和他們一起走進房間。
    然後我會讓他們等一會兒。
    我會打開門,看看,然後說,哦,只是想確認這個房間是安全的,裡面沒有人。
    你知道,我之前也曾走進過一些人裡面。
    這開始建立了我的主導地位。
    然後我會說,嗯,為什麼你不坐在那裡呢?
    你知道,人們問我,為什麼你對這些罪犯這麼好?
    首先,我會回到那位老前輩的話,我想要面對面的接觸。
    我不在乎付出什麼來獲得面對面的接觸。
    但我也希望掌控局面。
    如果通過對他好並指向那把舒適的椅子能達到這個目的,那我就這樣做。
    然後我總是嘗試坐得更高一點。
    在蘭姆齊的情況下,我們會提前進入房間,然後調整家具,使我總是坐得比他高一到兩英寸。
    他從來沒有注意到這一點。
    蘭姆齊那個人抽煙時手會抖。
    會抖。
    最後我們一共進行了37次訪談。
    這些訪談都是在酒店房間進行的,主要是在奧蘭多地區。
    我們會提前進去,重新排列家具或搬進家具。
    但我總是坐得比他高。
    他從來不知道這一點。
    他總是坐在沙發上,沙發的高度被削減了,所以他總是坐得稍微低一些。
    因此他始終是稍微抬頭看我們,而我們控制著休息的時機。
    我,嗯,我總是保持注意,然後說,你知道,你現在想喝點什麼嗎?
    我說,嗯,這是一個好話題,我們為什麼現在不休息一下,喝個飲料,然後我們再繼續呢?
    他沒意識到的是,我是在以某種方式通過支配談話來建立對他的控制。
    肯定你們的聽眾會說,哦,這樣很操控。
    是的,但在交易階段,這和你告訴你的團隊,我需要現在休息一下,去洗手間,沒什麼不同。
    好的,休息一下。
    我並不覺得這有什麼問題。
    但隨著時間的推移,發生的事情是,他開始放棄許多他想要展示的強勢。
    他希望掌控局面,但我並不允許。
    有時,他會說,嗯,我現在可以抽根煙。
    我會說,等一下,因為你剛才說的真有趣。
    而我的夥伴,特莉·穆迪女士,我非常喜歡她。
    她是個很棒的夥伴。
    她看著我,像是說,真的,你要再逼他一下嗎?
    但這樣做奏效了,以至於我意思是,這是一個總是隨身攜帶律師電話號碼的人,卻從來沒有使用過。
    你提到椅子的高度。
    在這個背景下,身高有什麼重要性?
    因為我也在想Zoom,而現在有趣的是,關於Zoom的事情,我們在開始錄製之前也談到了,事實上我們的大多數對話現在都是以數字形式進行的,因此我們常常不會考慮身高。
    有時我與我的同事或夥伴通話時,我會在客戶或我們的商業夥伴加入通話之前經常請他們調整身高,因為他們要麼在鏡頭下方看,要麼在鏡頭上方看,我認為這也是不理想的。
    一個很好的術語,有很多可以說的關於身高,正如有美貌紅利一樣。
    對吧?
    那麼,美貌紅利,你可以查到,經過充分研究的美貌紅利基本上說的是,如果你長得好看,你將在未來的每一年賺取8%的收入。
    這就是美貌紅利,你可以在線查詢所有相關的研究和統計。
    但也有身高紅利,這是普遍存在的。
    如果你看看美國身高6英尺2英寸的人,他們占總人口的約3%,但在財富500強公司中,他們卻占了39%的首席執行官,身高6英尺2英寸。
    哇,那,我的朋友,那是大幅增加。
    你在想,高個子的人更聰明嗎?
    不,不,這和高大的好處有關。
    有紅利,因此我們傾向於在全世界看到這一點。
    對於任何不懂“紅利”這個單詞的人,它基本上意味著一種好處或獎勵,你可以把它看作是一種優勢。
    你有優勢。
    那麼,對於蘭姆齊,讓你的身高高出一英寸的紅利是什麼?
    你在做什麼,蒂姆?
    你是在稍微削弱他的權力,讓自己更強大嗎?
    我必須這麼做,因為他掌控了一切。
    他是間諜。
    他手中或腦中擁有所有證據,或是俄羅斯人擁有。
    俄羅斯人不會把它交給我們。
    他們是敵人。
    他們說,太糟糕了,夥伴們,但我們掌握了你們所有的秘密。
    他們的秘密之多,以至於以重量來計算,而非僅僅是頁數。
    我還面臨的另一個問題是他的智商。
    他的智商是自第二次世界大戰以來軍方記錄的第二高。
    他可以談論任何主題,從量子物理到任何事情。
    當你擁有優越的智力,對於他來說,這是真的,或是你正在與某人打交道,
    假設他是一個病態自戀者。
    病態自戀者約占人口的2%,但在CEO中卻佔了約20%。
    所以,你的病態自戀者會過高評價自己並傾向貶低他人,
    在我與他的情況中,他有自戀特質,我能應對,但他的超凡智力令人震驚,且他擁有完美的回憶。
    因此,從某種角度看,這很可怕,因為他所要做的就是瞬間傳送到另一個國家,
    然後他可以販賣所有他所記住的秘密。
    所以我必須扮演某種角色,但我也不能讓他主導調查,
    更何況這是一個使英國、德國及整個西歐以及加拿大和美國都處於危險之中的調查。
    我無法承擔,美國政府無法承擔讓他對他所掌握的知識掉以輕心,
    尤其是在我們知道他已經妥協了核反應堅持代碼之後。
    你介意我暫停這個對話一會兒嗎?
    我想談談今天的節目贊助商,Shopify。
    我一直認為,商業中最大的成本不是失敗,而是你浪費在做決策上的時間。
    花時間猶豫、過度思考或等待最佳時機。
    當我20歲時開始我的第一家公司時,我沒有經驗,也沒有錢。
    我擁有的是一個想法和迅速行動的意願,這使一切都變得不同。
    如果你一直在考慮創業,
    Shopify讓這整個過程變得容易得多。
    擁有成千上萬的可自定義模板,你不需要編程或設計技能,
    你只需要一個開始的意願。
    Shopify連接了從你網站到社交媒體的所有銷售渠道,
    並且它也處理後端的支付、運輸和稅收,
    讓你可以專注於前進和拓展你的業務。
    如果你準備好開始,請訪問shopify.com / Bartlett,
    並註冊每月1英鎊的試用期。
    那就是shopify.com / Bartlett。
    姿勢怎麼樣?
    因為那是一種讓自己看起來更高的方法。
    是的。
    一個人的姿勢中有任何線索嗎?
    玩弄姿勢以創造不同的印象有多重要?
    是的,絕對重要。
    不僅僅是姿勢,還有地盤。
    所以我把姿勢看作是,當我們看起來自信時,肩膀向後,我們的呼吸。
    對我來說,姿勢始於大腦,我們在呼吸中有多冷靜。
    我再次回到瓦倫西亞參加這個活動時,一位女士走到我面前,她說,
    你要上台了,怎麼可能不緊張?
    我回答說,我是緊張的。
    我只是在掩蓋它。
    我在表現得好像我控制著一切,但我學會了這樣做,
    因為你不想看起來像一個緊張的FBI特工。
    相信我。
    你想看起來冷靜、鎮定且沉著。
    在談判中,你不想看起來需要,或是顯得絕望。
    同時,你也不想給人一種冷漠的感覺。
    有時,那種舉止、姿勢和手勢的總和有著重要的意義。
    現在,你必須記住,我遇到的許多成功商人實際上是處於自閉症譜系上,是吧?
    所以,這些人不太會進行眼神接觸。
    他們可能有一些不規則的行為。
    我有一個要處理的朋友,他有亞斯伯格症,所以他有時會抽搐。
    因此,我發現其他人在理解他的時候感到很不舒服。
    我沒有任何問題。
    我只是看著,好的,這是他的正常行為,我們會一起相處。
    但你可以從一個人身上看出很多東西。
    當你在某些事情上投資時,你進行了盡職調查,並與人交談。
    是的,你可以全天看數字。
    但你同樣也在注意非語言溝通,並在想,他們是在傳達自信,還是在傳達渴望、需要或任何脆弱感?
    我剛在反思最近的一些面試。
    我們一直在面試一個特別高級的職位。
    有兩位最終候選人。
    我在思考你說的,如何其中一位最終階段的候選人極其冷靜,坐在椅子裡。
    而另一个候选人則非常向前傾。
    反思之後,第二位候選人顯然更渴望得到這份工作。
    但第一位候選人可能更有經驗,更自信,且自我價值感更高。
    他們能在那種環境中如此輕鬆,並在我的董事會上擁有那張椅子,這實際上讓我更加想要他們。
    因為他們告訴我,他們有很多選擇。
    他們不感到害怕。
    他們不害怕這個機會。
    你知道,這是個有趣的觀察,Stephen。
    而且你觀察到這種差異非常好。
    我尋找的其中一個要素是,他們的角色會是什麼?
    我不介意某人在緊張。
    我自己早期來自平凡背景時也常常感到緊張。
    我往往關注許多組織在計劃中不會尋求的事情。
    其中之一是解決問題。
    告訴我你解決過的問題列表。
    大多數人在招聘時從不問這個問題。
    他們會說,你知道,我會使用Excel。
    我會使用Microsoft。
    太好了。
    請告訴我你在上份工作中解決了哪些問題。
    而且,你知道,你是多麼有效率地做到這一點的呢?
    你怎麼知道他們是否解決了問題,還是他們在一個團隊中而是別人解決了問題?
    因為我所說的一件事,就是要注意他們告訴你多少個實例,還有他們是如何描述這些的。
    因為這裡有一件有趣的事情。
    解決問題的人會進入細節並感受到講述故事者的情感。
    他們只是傳達,僅僅傳達,但不知道解決問題所附帶的情感。
    所以當那個小孩終於弄清楚了如何去做,比如你給他們一個需要這樣或那樣的方式才能打開的密碼鎖,然後那個小東西打開了。
    當他們回來告訴你時,你可以看到他們的行為如同無重力般輕盈,眉毛揚起,眼睛閃亮地說:「我解決了問題。我解決了。我進來了。」
    是的。
    那位只是告訴你這個故事的人並不知道與之相關的情感。
    我還關注的另一件事是,他們可能緊張或其他原因,他們的觀察能力有多好?
    這是一個實際上拯救了許多公司的問題。
    當我說,從現在開始你要問他們觀察能力有多好時,他們會問,觀察什麼?
    一切重要的事情。
    人、事件、機會。
    對吧。
    如果你來找我說,「好吧,我可以編碼這個。」好的,這很好。
    但是在你將要處於的職位上,你將要管理人員。
    你對觀察人員的能力有多好?
    尋求這種能力的公司的好處是,當你去業務部門,去看自己的子公司時,你在尋找什麼?
    你在觀察什麼?
    哦,當我查看帳本時,員工們的態度怎麼樣?
    人們滿意嗎?
    他們快樂嗎?
    還是都看起來像是便秘一樣?
    我是說,我曾經進入一些公司,當我一進去,我就會想到,「哦,天啊,你們這裡有管理問題。」
    然後那個人說,「誰?有人告訴你了嗎?」
    我說,「嗯,你知道,如果我不識別出所有這些人都低著頭、沒有眼神接觸,我就得是臨床上愚蠢了。他們在地鐵上擦肩而過卻互不交流。你們這裡有管理問題。」
    而且,你知道,他們似乎是為了這種技能而僱用。
    但是當你實際上需要的是一個出色的觀察者時,這真的合適嗎?
    那麼自信呢?
    這是天生的還是你認為自信可以培養?
    我認為自信絕對可以培養。
    我來自古巴,失去了一切,以難民身份抵達,身無分文。
    然後突然之間,FBI請我成為,我的意思是,我並沒有申請FBI。
    FBI實際上主動找我,請我申請。
    然後突然我說,你們認真的嗎?
    就像,你知道,我23歲。
    你知道,我才剛開始學習如何刮鬍子,根本沒有自信。
    然後他們教你如何變得自信。
    你可以教導自信。
    我告訴人們,學習自信最簡單的方法就是對一件事保持自信。
    我不在乎那是否是你堆紙的能力比別人更好。
    我不在乎那是不是你整理床鋪的方式,任何小事。
    讓我看到你自信的樣子。
    讓我看到那比其他人都好。
    當你能對一件事感到自信時,那麼你現在可以對兩件事感到自信。
    然後你可以對三件事感到自信。
    這種我經常看到的人說「好,進來就自信吧」的胡說八道,我認為真是無稽之談。
    我認為你必須學習,而你的生理也必須學習對一件事保持自信。
    對我來說,我在踢足球時很自信,好嗎?
    我很快。
    我能做某些事情。
    我對此保持自信。
    我知道在籃球中,我能投三分球,好嗎?
    對此感到自信,但對許多其他事情並不自信。
    我曾經在一群高管面前的房間裡,我記得我沒有自信。
    那我該如何改進這一點?
    除非你是世界級的演員,否則你不能走進一個地方,突然假裝你很自信。
    我告訴人們,學會對一件事自信。
    有時這是知識。
    我在每一個會議上都不會進去而對那個主題了解不深。
    如果你想獲得自信,了解你能夠掌握的某個特定主題的一切。
    而這會給你帶來巨大的自信。
    我見過年輕人剛從大學畢業,坐在那裡,你知道,他們的肘部靠在身體上,看起來有些害羞,緊張地四下張望,不知道該往哪裡看。
    然後,我告訴他們,了解你的主題,了解你的主題。
    因為當他們開始談論這個時,他們會開始綻放並改變。
    所以在特定領域或行業中的能力會創造自信,然後逐漸滲透。
    是的。
    這就是軍隊的做法,例如英國軍隊,他們會把17、18、19歲的年輕人帶來。
    他們會說,你知道,我們將把你變成戰士。
    好吧,怎麼做到的?
    通過跑步、讓你爬繩索,做任何數量的事情,你可以做到並感受到那份自信。
    你在我看過的Wired的視頻中談到,我們可以用多種不同的方式來展現和增強自信。
    其中一個是實際上觀察你生活中那些自信的領導者,並試著複製一些這些自信的行為。
    對吧。
    另一個是關於你的聲音。
    使用較深的聲音,並在句子的結尾不要上揚就像在問問題一樣。
    對。
    讓我談談這些。
    不要嘗試重新發明那些成功的東西。
    一個自信的人不必講得很快,也不會提高聲音。
    對。
    我記得我第一次逮捕的時候,我說,停下來,這是FBI。
    我的聲音是,沒有人會停下來。
    沒有人,沒有人。
    和我一起的那些人說,喬,你得改善你的聲音。
    你必須要有指揮的聲音。
    好吧,指揮的聲音是低沉的。
    怎麼樣?
    比如,停在那裡。
    我給你一個例子。
    你跟大多數高管說,不,這是不可接受的。
    聲音太高了。
    “No”永遠是用低沉的聲音說的。
    不。
    我們會嗎?
    不。
    這聽起來像一個完整的句子。
    你讓他們練習說”No”嗎?
    絕對是的。
    我做了,知道嗎,持續了十年。
    每年二月份,鼓勵我寫書的布萊恩·霍爾邀請我去哈佛。
    我永遠不會忘記,我有一整個哈佛班級。
    我記得有76名學生。
    我讓他們都說“No,No,No”。
    越說越低。
    他出去接電話的時候,他回來時以為我在搞邪教。
    我說,不,布萊恩。
    我只是教他們正確的方式,因為這些將成為未來的高管。
    你不應該說,不,沒有,沒有,沒有,沒有。
    現在,這聽起來像一個完整的句子。
    不。
    不。
    這不是運作的方式。
    而且聲音總是要低。
    所以我們著重於單詞。
    更重要的是,我們在於手勢,佔據多少空間,因為你所佔據的空間,如果你在這裡。
    就像是萎縮和緊繃。
    你萎縮了。
    你不想過度。
    你不想看起來像小丑,但你想要擁有你應得的空間。
    然後,我認為學會有節奏地說話是非常重要的。
    當你有節奏地說話時,我也是這樣,大家會聆聽。
    他們有時間處理你所說的內容,同時也能附加上與之相隨的情感。
    誰以節奏說話?
    丘吉爾。
    馬丁·路德·金。
    我有一個夢想,有一天這個國家將崛起並活出其信條的真正意義。
    我們認為這些真理是不言自明的,所有人都是平等的。
    強大。
    你能想象如果他站出來說,我有一個夢想,有一天可能,聽到的人會是誰?
    但他是一位傳教士,他知道如何指揮觀眾。
    當丘吉爾說,我們將在空中與他們作戰,我們將在海灘上與他們作戰,我們將在登陸地點作戰,我們將在田野和街道上作戰,我們將在山丘上作戰,我們永遠不會投降。
    那個節奏不僅吸引人,而且非常有力。
    而許多高管不知道如何使用它。
    我曾經參加過一些演示會,那些人只是放鬆。
    他們甚至不聽所說的內容。
    然而,有人開始以節奏跟他們說,這是我們的報價。
    這不是最終的報價。
    但目前來說,這是我們最好的報價。
    現在,你開始注意。
    你不僅關注我的話,還關注其中的情感。
    這樣的說法要好得多,說,這不是我們的最後報價,但,你知道。
    當你稍微放慢速度並提供空隙時,會有一種真正的權威。
    這回到我說的,誰控制時間,誰就控制。
    你正在建立對談判舞台的控制。
    他們不教這些。
    你的手勢也是如此。
    你的手勢非常補充你所說的內容。
    即使在和我交流時,你剛剛說,誰控制時間?
    控制。
    所以我在想我們的手勢。
    我的手指張開,代表我們對某事的重要程度。
    當我們感到恐懼時,我們的手指合攏。
    當我們恐懼得很多時,我們的拇指會縮進。
    我在談判中見過人們因為突然將拇指縮進而放棄了很多信息。
    我說,好吧,他們害怕。
    因為狗會縮起耳朵。
    人類則會縮起手,無論你多黑暗,你的手,手掌都是非常明顯的。
    這是隨著我們的進化而來的,因為它們富有表現力。
    所以即使在光線較暗的地方,我們也可以用手來溝通。
    我們越自信,我們的手指就會越分開。
    我在乎。
    想象一下,我說,我在乎你,與我說,我在乎你。
    這是很大的區別。
    所以在第一個例子中,你的手指有點在一起。
    在第二個例子中,你把它們張開。
    這,我在乎這個。
    所以它們強化了這個訊息。
    而人類大腦也進化成尋找雙手。
    因為手,第一,可以用作武器。
    但第二,它們也象徵著我們的情感。
    和眼神接觸。
    是的。
    關於眼神接觸及其重要性已經說了很多。
    我應該了解眼神接觸和自信之間的什麼?
    在某些方面,眼神接觸是,我們可以花大約40分鐘來討論它,因為,作為一名教師,我可以告訴你,因為你想要有良好的眼神接觸。
    例如,當你與一位女性交談時,你不想讓眼神接觸從這裡下降到胸部。
    好的。
    所以你希望保持在臉部,對吧?
    所以你想保持在臉部,但你也不希望造成恐懼,除非你想要恐懼。
    所以你必須運用眼神行為。
    你必須運用像是移開目光的方式。
    現在,我們兩個在思考範例和其他事情的時候都會移開目光。
    你可以用眼神接觸來強調。
    看看我們多麼經常使用眼神接觸或眼睛來表達意見。
    也許跟你的伴侶說,你覺得怎麼樣?
    他或她可能會立即看向你的伴侶,而不是專門指向你的某人,他們會說,不。
    所以通過我們的眼睛,我們經常表達我們的意見。
    因此,在談判中,這是一個重要的領域。
    我經常思考的一件事就是如何快速建立融洽關係。你知道,我經常主持這個播客,有時我會想得太多,尤其是在遇到像你這樣的人時,因為我心想,哦,天啊,這個家伙會看我所有的資料等等。是的。所以每當我見到你這樣的肢體語言專家,也就是善於行為科學的人時,我有時會想得太多。我想和你談談如何建立融洽的關係。我們今天其實錄下了我們的互動。所以,當我走進來時,我這裡有視頻,讓我看看這個,看看是否有什麼。對於觀看的每一個人,我們會將其放在螢幕上,但我只是希望你能分析我和你見面時的互動,告訴我如何可以做得更好。好的。你好,喬。很高興見到你。所以首先,你在我來之前雙手插腰等我,這是一種表達自己在主導地位的方式。你就這樣站著。是的,我明白了。好吧,但你知道,我其實是記得這一點的。我記得我在想,把你的手從你的腰上拿開。不是,不是這樣。但是這是你的領域,我期待你在你自己的領域這樣做。但你立刻做的一件事是你繞過桌子,向我伸出手來握手,對吧?所以我常常說,對我們來說,人有多重要取決於我們行動的速度。好吧。所以你從那裡走到這裡,並且你馬上這麼做,展示出你真的在乎。有研究顯示,甚至11個月大的嬰兒會根據他們的移動速度來識別個體或甚至無生命的物體,以此判斷他們是否關心他們。朝向他們?是的,朝向他們。好吧。為他們做一些事情。好吧,這叫做親社會行為。甚至11個月大的嬰兒也能認識到這一點。所以這一點對我來說並不奇怪,因為你取得了成功。對我而言,成功是衡量人們與他人相處得怎麼樣。謝謝你的工作,感謝你。謝謝。沒問題。你非常非常聰明。你看起來像個在FBI工作的人。我,這是FBI的制服。這是……那我會被麥克風錄音,還是就這個?就那一個。剛剛好。好的。你對我的穿著有些有趣的評價,我很感激。這總是提醒我我現在看起來有多老。唯一我想補充的建議是我應該再站久一點,然後確保你坐下的同時,我也坐下。好吧。我想邀請你坐下,然後和你一起坐下。這樣的時間點比讓我獨自坐下要好。如果你能注意到在那個時候,我實際上仍高於你,而你已經坐下了。在談判中,我們會說這是不利的。那是什麼意思?這是一個不可以的事情。這對史蒂夫來說是一個大詞。不要這樣做。那記筆記呢?這是我在過去六個月中開始做的事情,在我在英國的公司開會時。我現在有個iPad,當有人發言時,這實際上幫助我,因為我的思維、處理和學習方式。這幫助我避免聽著聽著就想要發言。如果他們說了某些我擔心會忘記的事情,我可以馬上記下我想要說的,這樣我就有更多的時間來傾聽。但我注意到你在工作中提到,對於表現出你在乎他人而言,記筆記是一種非常有效的方式。好吧,我想對你說的是我對治療師所說的。治療師們犯的最大錯誤之一就是他們坐在那裡,因為他們中的許多人賺得少,不再有像以前那樣的秘書,所以他們在和客戶交談的同時打字記下觀察。我認為這是個大錯誤。而根據我公司所做的調查,並不是針對治療師的,而是針對他們的客戶,那些願意交談的客戶,結果是很糟糕的。我試圖強調的是在你面前有材料。如果有什麼特別的筆記,略作記錄,或者如果你有一位要做筆記的人,我不想錯過任何事情。如果你在寫作,你就無法進行觀察。而觀察實際上比寫作要重要。如果你開始講話,提到什麼超胸鎖突,它是超還是上胸鎖突?這是一個值得記下的筆記。然後我再回來回顧。但如果我一直在寫,我,你知道,我有年輕人告訴我,不過你只是個老古董。這就是我們長大的方式。我可以告訴你,從進化的角度而言,我們無法超越我們的DNA。我們只是不能,例如,學校進來說,你知道,你不能再擁抱學生了。好吧。別指望,為什麼,我們為什麼會有抑鬱的學生?為什麼會有,任何數量的事情,但我可以告訴你。我們進化出來就是為了擁抱,觸碰,互相問候,你知道,和你最好的朋友那些東西。當我們和朋友摔跤的時候,那場遊戲,那場摔跤,所有的那些都是隱性接觸。因為我們物種需要這樣。人類需要觸碰。有些事情是人類需要的。其中之一就是這種面部互動。當你專注於寫作時,實際上是在削弱這種互動。你怎麼看握手呢?因為握手就是我們以社會可接受的方式觸碰陌生人的方式。有沒有好的握手方式?有的,還有壞的握手方式。
    所以我總是說當你握手的時候,手指應該向下,對吧?很多人則會把手指翹起來。所以當他們握手時,讓我們看看是否能夠握到彼此的手。當他們這樣做時,你的手中就有了他們的手指在這個敏感區域。這是你親吻的地方。靜脈。對。嗯,手腕的內側也是一個敏感區域。所以現在你有這個男人的手指在這裡,這真的很奇怪。所以手指應該低,壓力應該均勻施加。你不要試著去做。唐納德·特朗普式的握手。對。不要,別做唐納德·特朗普的握手,或者別猛拉手。不用太緊地握住。不要玩柔術。像我這個年紀的人都有關節炎。我從不被這種情況打動。我曾經遇到過一些身材魁梧的男人,他們握緊我的手,然後我就想,你是認真的嗎?那關於掌握的方式呢?所以手掌的包圍對於真正的朋友來說是可以的,但大多數人不喜歡被手握住。如果你想觸摸別人的手。那麼你握手,然後觸碰上臂等等。對於任何喜歡抹茶的人來說,對於任何喜歡拿鐵的人來說,我的一家公司剛剛推出了罐裝抹茶拿鐵。我和創始人瑪麗莎交談,她說創造這個產品並不是一件容易的事。他們在2021年嘗試過推出,但商業上常常是這樣,開發過程變得極其複雜。因此,他們花了四年的時間來測試和完善每一個細節,創造出完美的 Ted 抹茶香草拿鐵和完美的 Ted 抹茶草莓拿鐵。所以我們在這些罐中擁有的就是來自罐子的咖啡師品質的抹茶。它的味道就像剛剛從你最喜愛的咖啡館製作出來的,自然甜美,自然醇厚,裝在罐中。我之所以投資這家公司並喝抹茶是因為抹茶作為能量源給我持久的精力,沒有我從其他產品中得到的那種大起大落。你可以在 Waitrose、Tesco 和 Holland and Barrett 購買他們的即飲罐裝抹茶拿鐵。這裡有個小優惠給你。如果你去 perfectted.com 並使用代碼 diary40,你將獲得首訂 40% 的折扣。請不要告訴任何人。保密好這個。代碼是 diary40。你在 perfectted.com 上可以享受 40% 的優惠。先去使用它,在他們改變之前。我這裡還有另一個視頻給你。所以他開始時手臂放下,但他在觸摸自己的脖子,捂住他的脖子。他在撫摸自己臉的左側,還有按摩自己的前額和脖子。這就是說,我們看了之後認為,這些都是心理不適的標誌。現在,為什麼會這樣呢,我們看到他的眨眼或眼瞼顫動。他在觸摸自己的臉。這是為什麼?我不知道。現在有一個宣泄的呼氣。看起來他在閱讀我的一本書。我想告訴你的是,這些都是你不希望一位領導者表現出來的行為。你肯定會在追隨者那裡看到這些,但不是在領導者那裡。你永遠不會看到將軍這樣做。當然不會在美國陸軍或英國陸軍中。他所做的所有行為,無論是安撫還是某種心理不適的指標,都是我們所認為的缺乏自信的行為。領導者通常是卓越的。你會說這些卓越的個體是造就的,而不是天生的。這是件好事,因為這讓你我都能接近這種卓越的水平。你已經確定了幾個使人卓越的特質。嗯,其中之一就是自我掌握。自我掌握,不論是亞歷山大大帝尋求蘇格拉底的學習,蘇格拉底教了柏拉圖,柏拉圖教了亞里士多德,然後亞里士多德教了亞歷山大大帝。所以亞里士多德教了亞歷山大,而他追求知識。托馬斯·愛迪生,美國最偉大的發明家之一,擁有1300項專利,6歲時退學,追求知識。我的出身雖然很卑微,我們非常窮,我真的不得不去垃圾堆裡偷書和雜誌來學習。你可以創建你自己的學徒計劃,學會掌握某個技能或知識,或體育動作等等。什麼是自我掌握的人,他們已經達成了什麼?他們已經完成了沒有人可以奪走的事情。沒有人能奪走這個東西。我擁有的所有知識、所有技能、所有經驗,沒有人能奪走。我為何要使用「自我」這個字?自我掌握。因為很大一部分,沒有誰,對吧?我們之前在談論,我說,我努力每週讀兩本書,這樣我就能每十年讀大約一千本書。沒有人告訴我這樣做。所以是自我。為什麼?因為我想知道。因為,為什麼達·芬奇要知道水中的漩渦,或啄木鳥的舌頭長度?誰在乎?這無關緊要。這是自我強加的。我們在這個世界上是達·芬奇對水漩渦興趣的受益者,這幫助他畫出《蒙娜麗莎》的秀髮,我們都是受益者。我認為自我掌握比大學能教的更重要。大學可以教你如何思考,但卻不能教你掌握。所以這是因為我聽到,顯然是學習和追求知識,然後還有自我掌握這一部分,感覺像是自我意識,意識到自己。嗯,我認為你是一個自我掌握的例子。這是宇宙中唯一能夠將可用的東西變成你生活一部分的語言。
    因此,無論是我的祖母教我如何與人交談,還是我的母親或父親,母親教我如何握手,姐姐教我跳舞,這些都是自我掌握的一部分。
    現在,我本可以拒絕這一切。 而很多人確實這樣做。 很多人拒絕科學,或拒絕哦,我不想學習跳舞,我不想學習這個。 好的,這是你的選擇。 但能夠觀察周圍的世界並從中學習,有著非凡的優雅,而你已經這樣做了,並說,我要把這些運用起來。 我為什麼要重新發明別人已經經歷過的東西? 我要採納我喜歡和偏好的東西,然後將其好好利用。
    第二個是觀察,我想我們已經談過這個。 觀察。 你知道,偉大的例子是一位父母能夠觀察到孩子們的即時需求等。我昨天在機場的時候看到有一個家庭,他們在等候的整個時間裡,彼此都沒有交談,甚至不關心彼此在做什麼。 我覺得這很困難,因為當我的女兒成長的時候,我從來沒有將目光從她身上移開。 我看到人們在使用自己的設備,就像這整個家庭一樣,他們錯過了很多事情,很多信息。
    偉大的發明都是通過觀察而來的。 魔術貼。 你知道魔術貼的故事嗎? 在第二次世界大戰的中間,一位瑞士人士走上山,回來時提醒自己,對吧?他看了他的襪子,說,天啊,這些小蟲,這些小…… 是植物嗎? 是啊,就是那些排出的小芽,會粘附在物體上。 在美國,我們稱它們為黏貼物。 有各種名稱。 他在顯微鏡下看,注意到它們不只是突出,而是實際上是彎曲的。 在彎曲的情況下,它們會黏附在一切上。所以他說,我就發明這個。 現有趣的是,我們談論觀察時,他只見過這一次。 有多少百萬人也見過它? 但只有觀察者能夠利用這一點。 這就是為什麼我告訴執行者,當你招募時,雇用好的觀察者,因為他們會拯救你。 他們會說,嘿,我看到這裡有一些壞的趨勢。
    所以,觀察是關鍵。 然後我們直接過渡到下一點,大多數人認為溝通僅僅是關於詞語,而實際上,溝通在每個文化中,主要、最有效和最具影響力的是非語言的。 而關於詞語勝過非語言的誤解,可以去參加一場葬禮。 去參加一場葬禮,看看話語效果如何,與其把手放在某人的肩膀上讓他哭泣。 這是我們溝通的最主要方式。 這是我們表達關心的最主要方式。 這是我們表達同理心的最主要方式。
    第四點是行動。 對我來說,這實際上與第二點,即觀察,密切相關,也與你的魔術貼故事相關,因為一定有很多人想,哦,我的天,那個東西黏在我身上。 他們卻什麼都不做。 也許甚至有人覺得,哦,那可能有用。 但然後最難的部分往往是採取行動。 這就是行動。 做一些事情,正如我在書中所說,要卓越。 去做一些有益於社會的事情,但不要拖延,對吧? 如果你想讓別人知道你不在乎,最糟糕的事情就是拖延。 這種情況一直在發生。 你走到櫃台,走過去說,嗨,你知道,我希望能幫助這件事,然後他們就,哦,我不知道。 讓我去後面看看。 他們走到後面花了時間,然後又花時間回來。 你不如大喊,我不在乎。 我告訴經理的就是,這是你的責任。 你為什麼要雇用一個無法以光速移動的人? 因為移動就等於關心。 所以如果他們的態度是這樣的,你不如掛個牌告訴別人,我不在乎。
    你可以說,好吧,也許他們有行動不便的問題。 好吧,前提是這樣。 我會說,你知道嗎?我需要一分鐘,因為我剛做過髖關節置換,但我會立即處理這個問題。 我們可以理解。 但是當我們不通過行動來表達我們的關心時,這是如此直接。而第五點是心理舒適。 你在書中寫到,這是人類擁有的最強大的力量。 確實如此。 有趣的是,在我研究人類的這些年裡,人類並不尋求完美。 嬰兒並不在乎是吸自己的拇指還是雙胞胎妹妹的拇指。 它們是可以互換的。 人類並不尋求完美。 我們尋求的是心理上的舒適。 提供這一點的人最快會成為贏家。 就這麼簡單。
    如果你能的話,你太年輕了。 但我記得電腦剛出來的時候,它們放在醜陋的盒子裡,放在醜陋的商店,並且藏在櫃檯後面,它們很醜。 史蒂夫·喬布斯出現,說,不,我們要把它們放在像我們有的那樣的實驗桌上,讓它們變得易於接近。 所以這個神秘的設備是一個如此醜陋的詞,你會忘記人們曾經是多麼厭惡電腦。 他們曾經會在晚上進來,剪斷電源線。 這就是人們對電腦的恐懼。而他從4%的市場份額增加到現在的67%,或者其他數字。 為什麼? 心理舒適。 我告訴商人,當你在談判時,你所談判的是能否創造足夠的心理舒適,使對方能夠接受,讓我覺得,好吧,也許我沒有得到我想要的一切,但在這段時間內,我可以忍受這種心理舒適。
    我可以回到董事會,報告這是我所能做的最好。追求心理上的舒適感。那么,在任何上下文中,如何創造心理舒適感呢?你今天開始了這個過程。你歡迎我進來,然後你問我:你想喝點什麼?你想要水嗎?你想要茶嗎?你想要咖啡嗎?這些開始了心理舒適感的過程。我們身處一個安靜的環境中。噪音少,心理舒適感更多。燈光少,不傷眼。這一切從生物、物理、生理層面開始,然後到認知層面。因此,心理舒適感。我們在談判。因此,你想提供三千美元。我認為我的價值是六千美元。我們如何達成呢?好吧,我會讓你告訴我你只能提供三千美元的理由,而我會告訴你我的理由。好吧。事實上,我們能夠講述自己的故事,開始了心理舒適感的過程。現在,最終,我可能不得不遵循那個,因為只有這麼多錢。如果不在預算之內,就不在預算之內。但你可以加入一些說法,例如,這是我們目前所能提供的所有。但我們會在三個月後重新評估這個問題。如果那時根據收益能再給你每月五百美元的話,我們會這樣做。我們會逐步進行,始終考慮什麼能提供心理舒適感。苛刻、憤怒、不關注需求、想要、欲望甚至偏好,都會造成心理不適。在2009年,你寫了一本書叫做《我們身邊的自戀者》。是的。你之前說過大約2%的人是自戀者,但25%的首席執行官呢?22%。高達22%的首席執行官具有自戀特徵,是的。那麼,當有人與自戀者打交道時,他們需要怎麼做才能管理該情況?因為根據這些數字,大約有98%的人不是自戀者,但可能在一生中會遇到他們。而且,你知道,有相當多的人與他們共事。即使他們只占人口的2%,我們也會和這樣的人共事或為他們工作。所以我們需要記住,嗯,我們所說的自戀者意味著什麼?我們不是在談一個對著鏡子看自己、喜歡噴香水和梳頭髮的人。這是一個過度評價自己,但需要貶低他人的人。這是一個只考慮自己,不在乎你生活中所經歷的痛苦或所發生的事情,希望你忠誠,但對你不忠,對你的私事不感興趣,但希望你對他們的事感興趣。這就是你的惡性自戀者。哦,順便提一下,他們本質上會說謊,但期望你對他們說真話。那麼,效果是,如果他們只是人口的2%,但我們在許多公司中看到他們,並且我們要為他們工作,那麼,我們該如何相處呢?首先要認識到他們將貶低我們。現在,有時他們會通過不邀請你參加會議或不分享信息來貶低你,但很多時候是通過他們對待你的方式,比如對你大吼,貶低你。我是說,我有一些可怕的經歷。那么,當我們遇到這樣的人時該怎麼辦呢?第一步是認識到你面對的是什麼。這就是我寫《危險的人格》的原因,因為裡面有這些健全的清單,這些清單已經多次被驗證。所以你可以看到,哦,哇,從125個特徵中,這個人擁有75個特徵。你有問題。但現在重點是,當我們和這樣的人一起生活時,假設你知道,他們可能非常有魅力,但然後他們會轉而對你,展現他們真正的自我。那麼,你該如何處理呢?我可以告訴你的是,這段軌跡的趨勢不利於你,這些人是如此具有腐蝕性,如此有毒,最終他們將在身體、心理、情感、生理或經濟上使你受害。你會成為受害者。問題是,我告訴很多為這些人工作的高管,他們被欺凌,這些事情就是,你願意忍受多久?如果你能設定一個數字,比如六個月或一年,好吧,但然後要採取行動,因為你會付出代價。你知道有一本很棒的書叫《身體記住一切》。身體肯定會記住一切。你會因為接近有毒個體而付出代價。如果你成為那個人的咀嚼玩具,你將遭受極大的痛苦。因此我說,你知道,沒有藥物可以治療他們。你無法做任何事情讓他們喜歡你。不要期待任何忠誠。儘快脫身。那就是我唯一的建議,顯然我不是臨床醫生。但我相信大多數臨床醫生,如果他們誠實,會說,你必須脫身。這種情況是不能容忍的。不要試著在任何方面贏得勝利。不要試著去…我認為你無法贏。首先,這些個體的性格有嚴重缺陷。他們沒有內省。他們認為自己是完美的。他們看不到自己有任何缺陷。因此,由於他們的人格缺陷,你無法期望他們有正常的行為。因此,為什麼要將自己暴露於他們之下?他們會這樣一輩子。你在某個特定章節中提到,數量達到一個是不好的,兩個是可怕的,三個則是致命的。哦,你知道,我經常被問這個問題。那麼,一個人可以有多種特徵嗎?是的。你可以是病態性的自戀者。也就是說你過高評價自己。你還可以具有偏執型人格的特徵,這意味著你在思考上非常僵化,並且總是懷疑每個人的意圖。在歷史上,你看看希特勒。希特勒是病理性的,他是個惡性自戀者。
    他臨床上有偏執症。
    他害怕誰?
    少數族裔,羅姆人,當時被稱為吉普賽人,還有猶太人。
    這就是臨床偏執症。
    而且他是一名精神病患者。
    好吧,我們就這麼說吧。
    什麼是精神病?
    精神病是指你沒有悔恨,沒有同情心,沒有良心。
    你可以隨心所欲地做任何事情,而你晚上可以安然入睡。
    這就是你的羅伯特·哈雷,這位研究者是對精神病定義得最好的。
    希特勒擁有一切。
    在自戀和自信之間可能有一條微妙的界限。
    因為當你描述自戀時,你是在講過度重要感,真心相信自己很重要。
    這聽起來有點像一個極度自信的人。
    順便說一句,自戀自1950年代以來一直受到研究,我們現在擁有的自戀社會前所未有。
    我們在談論自己的方式中表現出來的比什麼都重要。
    我們在TikTok和其他論壇上表達各種想法。
    所以我們現在的自戀程度比1950年代高得多。
    他們甚至會研究我們使用的詞語。
    現在我們使用「我」這個詞比1950年代頻繁得多。
    我們過去常說「我們」和「我們的」。
    現在我們說「我」。
    而真正的自戀者有一套腐敗的信仰體系,他們的品格真是有缺陷。
    他們不僅擁有自戀的特徵,而且他們確實相信自己是無謬的,只有他們才有答案。
    我是能讓我們重新偉大的那個人。
    我知道你接下來要問我什麼。
    不,我不會問你那個。
    謝謝你。
    但是如果這些特徵適合,那麼你知道,我告訴人們的是,無論你是進入一個組織還是看誰在領導你的國家,問問自己,他們是否擁有這些特徵?
    如果他們擁有這些特徵,那麼這不是一個困難的方程式。
    心理學,尤其是在涉及品格有缺陷的人時,並不是那麼困難,問題是我是否想為一個重視我的人工作?
    還是為一個貶低他人的人工作?
    還是為一個貶低他人的人工作?
    然後你就從這裡開始。
    這幾十年來你做了這麼多不可思議的事情,追捕恐怖分子、間諜、空中監視、與特種空勤團合作、採訪人員、追捕恐怖分子。
    這對你作為一個人有什麼改變?
    這如何改變了你對人類行為的看法,還有作為一個人是什麼,意義以及生活中所有這些更大問題?
    我從來沒被問過這個問題。
    所以謝謝你提出這個最深刻的問題。
    我想最好的回答是,我是逐漸學習的,並且我很高興我這樣學習。
    我的第一次謀殺案只是一起普通的謀殺案,我去處理了。
    我的第一次自殺事件,是一位警察,這是漸進的。
    我想如果我當時一次性面對所有我所面臨的事情,我想我會精神崩潰。
    我很高興它是分批的,我能夠從中學習。
    我學到的,第一是,我所交談的大多數人是誰?
    大多數是證人或受害者。
    這些人都很好。
    他們是善良的人。
    一些最善良的人是這些在亞利桑那州的可憐農民。
    他們種棉花。
    他們收入不高。
    但他們是好人。
    你會發現,法律執法中你所做的一切實際上都是為了他們。
    你知道,當我後來進入反間諜活動時,現在你面對的是國家和不同國家的利益。
    是的,每個國家都有自己的優先考慮事項。
    但你意識到,當你處理極端主義者時,他們有自己的信仰體系。
    而且你真的無法改變他們。
    但我們也有自己的信仰體系。
    你必須意識到,好吧,我無法解決所有問題。
    作為一名執法官員,我只能關注我能幫助或解決的事情。
    我無法找到所有強暴、謀殺或炸彈攻擊的嫌疑犯。
    我在布里igham Young大學時,當一名女孩被連環殺手綁架時我正值值班。
    直到今天,當晚我值班時她被綁架,我仍然感到痛苦。
    我仍然感受到。
    這些事情會壓在你心頭。
    但我同時也非常……你知道,當我與學生在一起時,我指導人們。
    我指導很多高管。
    但我也指導那些好奇的年輕人。
    我看到他們追求生活和知識的渴望。
    這讓我充滿希望。
    你為什麼對那晚值班感到痛苦?
    因為你無法將其從心中抹去。
    我無法擺脫那種氣味……有時你去犯罪現場,氣味非常難聞,以至於你無法洗去那種氣味。
    你必須燒掉你的衣服。
    法醫檢察官知道這一點。
    有些事情是你無法……你知道,我第一次看到有人被殺是在古巴。
    你不能……生物學上,你有海馬體。
    你有兩個。
    它會保留你經歷過的所有負面事件。
    這就是為什麼你不能用藥物治療創傷後壓力症的原因。
    因為海馬體會確保你第一次燙傷自己、碰到爐子不會再發生。
    所以所有負面情緒都會保留下來,有時會持續一輩子,但通常大約十年。
    但我也被告知,事實上人們仍然追求好的事物。
    你知道,我聽說有些人跟狗一起工作,或者與殘疾人一起工作,沒有期待任何報酬。
    我認為大多數人都有一顆善良的心、一顆良善的心。
    所以我試著關注那些我遇到的人,這些人為我提供了「卓越」的範例。
    那位在巴西的女性,在六歲時失明。
    她生了12個孩子。
    她有更多孩子,但只有12個存活下來。
    而且她能在失明的情況下,通過觸感進行針線活。
    我也永遠不會忘記那段經歷。
    坐在她的面前,是我所獲得的珍貴享受。
    了解一位能夠僅透過手上的毛發隨著與周圍空間互動而感知他人移動的女性,真是一種美妙的體驗。
    在你的職業生涯中,有哪一天是你最引以為傲或最開心的呢?
    哦,哇。
    好吧,我告訴你,我畢業於FBI學院的那一天,我是非常開心的。
    想像一下,任何時候,FBI都有27,000名申請者,而他們每年只會接受約220人。
    所以我感到非常興奮。
    當我離開FBI的那一天,我也非常高興,因為那時我已經完成了所有我想做的事情,我想要做其他的事情。
    我想寫作,而當你在FBI工作時,這是非常困難的。
    我還想繼續教學。
    所以我認為這兩個事件,對於我的職業來說,是我人生中美好的時刻。
    喬,我的觀眾大多是想要學習、喜愛故事、希望改變自己的生活、改善生活以實現他們目標的人。
    所以你寫了很多書,我想總共是15本。
    好吧,已經出版了14本,第15本明年會出版。
    那麼我的最後一個問題是,在你所寫的14本書中(還有待出版的第15本)和你所學到的一切中,
    有什麼是我沒有問的,但對於那些希望改善自己生活、溝通技巧和身體語言,以便在追求目標上更有效的人會有幫助的?
    我應該問你的。
    嗯,我不想破壞這一點,但我覺得在我們進行的這些分鐘或小時內,你已經問了很多很棒的問題。
    我認為你的問題的本質是,建立聯繫的重要性是什麼?
    你的觀眾都是從事人際工作的。
    除非他們是寫代碼的,但即使如此,我們都是在與人交往。
    你問題真正圍繞的是,建立聯繫的重要性是什麼?
    正確建立聯繫的重要性又是什麼?
    然後我們怎麼保持這些聯繫?
    我們談到了非語言交流的重要性來傳達我信任你、我重視你、我關心你等等。
    但然後創造出心理上的舒適感,讓我們能夠長時間在一起,因為人際關係是無價的。
    我認為這是最大的教訓。
    每當我去到任何地方,我都會說,我們從事的是人際工作。
    而我認為你在展示如果你有這種能力能取得的成就方面是典範。
    這是個很大的讚美。
    非常感謝你。
    我們有一個結尾的傳統,上一位嘉賓會為下一位嘉賓留下一個問題,而不知道他們是為誰留下的。
    留給你的問題是…
    嗯,有趣。
    人們說他們喜歡你什麼?
    我認為這個問題很簡單。
    因為我經常聽到,他們會說,你真親切。
    我想他們看我嚴肅的照片,或是認為FBI特工應該是什麼樣子。
    而我到世界各地時,他們會說,你看起來很普通,容易接近。
    我一直努力讓自己變得容易接觸。
    無論你是學生、保安還是其他什麼,我總是可以被接觸到。
    我總是親切對待每一個人。
    喬,謝謝你。
    我們現在生活的時代真有趣。
    我們在開始錄製之前談到過。
    我們比以往任何時候都更數位化。
    我們生活在螢幕後面。
    而聯繫在某種程度上是一種失傳的藝術。
    這也是為什麼人們如此渴望學習如何更好地建立聯繫,如何不被誤解,以及如何真正地表達自己的感受。
    因為對於這一代生來數位化的人來說,這並不是一種自然的能力。
    而我認為你的工作在這方面做得非常深刻。
    它讓我們重新回到人類的本質,透過人類學和理解我們的演變,以及這一切從何而來的脈絡,是強化你所說的一切。
    這是非常重要的。
    而且是如此共鳴。
    我已經在你參與過的視頻和訪談中看到過。
    它們都令人難以置信地有共鳴。
    因為人們如此渴望這些資訊。
    而我認為我們生活中面對的許多問題都源於無法有效地向他人表達我們的感受和真實想法。
    也許是因為我們還沒有學會,也許是因為我們正在學習另一種行為。
    也許我們變得更加個人主義,變得更加內向,被困在螢幕後面。
    所以我非常讚賞你所做的工作。
    我強烈建議大家去閱讀這些書籍。
    它們有很多本。
    但我會在下面提供所有書籍的鏈接和簡介,讓你可以決定哪一本最適合你。
    我讀過幾本,其中一個我最喜歡的就是《非凡》。
    它非常易讀。
    但它們在根據你生活中尋求的東西不同而各具特點。
    無論是身體語言,還是你只是想聽更多有關獵捕恐怖分子或理解精神病患者的故事,或是一般了解FBI及你所生活的生活。
    所以我會把它們都鏈接在下面。
    有什麼我們遺漏的嗎?
    嗯,我的妻子會告訴我,請好心告訴大家,如果他們能提到我現在有一個YouTube頻道,可以解決很多這些問題。
    只需訪問joenavarro.net,裡面有連結到我的YouTube頻道,你會認為我會知道。
    如果你能看到,我會把它鏈接在下面。
    我不知道。
    但我想感謝你所做的事情。
    你總有一天會明白,就像我一樣,雖然這不是你的初衷,但你正在幫助改變生命。你的初衷可能是教育。十年後、二十年後,或者就如我最近發現的,四十年後,會有人寫信給你,說你曾經說的某些話或你的榜樣影響了我,改變了我的生命。你會感到驚訝,哇,我從來沒想過這一點。這就是你所做的事情。你有一天會意識到這一點。謝謝你。我是說,這也是你所做的事情。喬,謝謝你如此慷慨地分享你的時間。我真的非常感激。能夠見到你真是一種榮幸。我很期待完成你剩下的書籍,並更多地探索你的 YouTube 渠道,我會在下面連結。你還有很多演講機會,你與很多公司和組織合作。如果人們想聯繫你,應該到你的網站上給你發郵件。當然可以。只需通過網站發送郵件,我們會處理的。我也很高興能與任何有興趣的人分享這段知識的旅程。我將告訴你一個小秘密。你可能會認為我和我的團隊有點奇怪。但直到今天我仍然記得,我的團隊成員 Jemima 在 Slack 上發佈她改變了這個工作室的氣味。當她發佈後,整個辦公室在我們的 Slack 渠道裡鼓掌。這聽起來可能有點瘋狂,但在 CEO 日記中,這就是我們在節目中所做的 1% 改進。而這就是為什麼這個節目會是現在這個樣子的。通過理解 1% 增長的力量,你絕對可以改變你生活的結果。這並不是關於劇變或快速獲勝,而是關乎那些小而持續的行動,它們對你的結果產生持久的變化。因此,兩年前,我們開始創建這本美麗的日記。它真的很美。在裡面,有很多圖片、靈感和動力,還有一些互動元素。這本日記的目的是幫助你識別、專注於並與 1% 一起發展一致性,最終改變你的生活。所以如果你想為自己、朋友、同事或團隊要一本,現在就去 thediary.com吧。我會把鏈接放在下面。下次見!

    Joe Navarro spent decades catching liars for the FBI, now he reveals the subconscious habits that are sabotaging your success

    Joe Navarro is a former FBI agent and internationally recognised expert in the interpretation and application of nonverbal behaviour. He is also the author of over 15 books such as, ‘Be Exceptional: Master the Five Traits That Set Extraordinary People Apart’.

    In this conversation, Joe and Steven discuss topics such as, the quiet trick that gives you instant control, how to read any room like a book, the negotiation trick the FBI use, and the one gesture that reveals you’re not confidence. 

    00:00 Intro

    02:25 Who Are You and What Have You Spent Your Life Working On?

    04:30 What Is It You’re Giving People?

    07:16 How Would My Life Change If I Applied Your Knowledge?

    11:13 Your Career

    12:01 Behavioral Program at the FBI

    15:01 Have You Caught Spies?

    22:08 Story of Catching a Spy Using Flowers

    26:42 How Many People Could Be Spies Walking Among Us?

    29:16 Is Body Language Important?

    34:43 First Impressions

    37:33 How Do We Synchronize With Someone?

    44:15 Eyebrow Knitting

    46:08 Eyelid Touching

    49:45 What Do Our Lips Give Away?

    51:14 The Supersternal Notch

    55:54 How Do We Negotiate?

    1:02:49 Writing Down the Goal of Your Negotiation

    1:06:51 Taking Control of a Situation

    1:11:07 When Should We Walk Into Rooms?

    1:15:09 Why Does Height Matter When Speaking to Someone?

    1:20:25 What Clues in Someone’s Posture Should We Look For?

    1:26:00 The Importance of Observing

    1:27:42 Can You Train Confidence?

    1:31:59 Don’t Rise at the End of a Sentence

    1:34:20 Speaking in Cadence

    1:36:31 Hand Gestures

    1:38:12 Eye Contact

    1:39:40 What to Do When Greeting People

    1:42:59 Should We Be Taking Notes?

    1:46:07 Handshakes

    1:48:42 Behaviors You Wouldn’t Want From a Leader

    1:49:34 Self-Mastery

    1:51:52 The Importance of Taking Action

    1:53:22 Observation

    1:53:42 Psychological Comfort

    1:57:59 How to Spot a Narcissist

    2:04:07 Narcissism and Self-Belief

    2:06:02 How Has Seeing All of This Changed You as a Human?

    2:11:22 Is There a Proudest Day in Your Career?

    2:13:10 The Importance of Connecting

    2:14:53 What Do People Say They Like About You?

    Follow Joe:

    Instagram – https://g2ul0.app.link/mEIBxWMqESb 

    Twitter – https://g2ul0.app.link/2r4SCkOqESb 

    Body Language Academy – https://g2ul0.app.link/xDCgWDRqESb 

    You can purchase Joe Navarro’s book ‘Be Exceptional: Master the Five Traits That Set Extraordinary People Apart’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/gbRf5uWqESb 

    Watch the episodes on Youtube – https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes 

    The 1% Diary is back – and it won’t be around for long, so act fast! https://bit.ly/1-Diary-Megaphone-ad-reads

    You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb 

    Sign up to receive email updates about Diary Of A CEO here: https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt 

    Ready to think like a CEO? Gain access to the 100 CEOs newsletter here: https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter 

    Follow me:

    https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb 

    Sponsors:

    Shopify – https://shopify.com/bartlett

    Perfect Ted – https://www.perfectted.com with code DIARY40 for 40% off

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

  • No Mercy / No Malice: United States of Debt

    AI transcript
    0:00:06 Hey, this is Peter Kafka. I’m the host of Channels, a show about media and tech and lots of other stuff.
    0:00:13 And this week I learned about how to make money in media and specifically how to do that in Washington, D.C. in 2025.
    0:00:18 My guest, Jake Sherman, the co-founder of Punchbowl News.
    0:00:24 That’s the fast-growing, super inside the Beltway pub that covers Congress and Congress and nothing else.
    0:00:28 And it’s working. That’s on Channels, wherever you hear your favorite pods.
    0:00:37 Soon enough, high schoolers will be donning those caps and gowns.
    0:00:41 But what comes next is less of a sure thing than it was a decade ago.
    0:00:48 Students are genuinely questioning if college is worth it and if college is really the right thing for them, knowing what they know about themselves.
    0:00:57 This week on Explain It To Me, a look at the new range of alternatives to college and how some high schools are setting up their graduates for success.
    0:01:01 New episodes on Sunday mornings, wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:01:07 Are tariffs a turning point for U.S. economic and foreign policy?
    0:01:18 We have Trump who is completely unconstrained and is completely convinced, confident that everything he’s doing is utterly right, doesn’t need to take advice from those around him.
    0:01:29 I’m Preet Bharara, and this week, political scientist Ian Bremmer joins me on my podcast, Stay Tuned With Preet, to discuss economic and political turmoil and how they impact America and the world.
    0:01:35 The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay Tuned With Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:01:41 I’m Scott Galloway, and this is No Mercy, No Malice.
    0:01:47 Last week, we saw the tariff war jump the lab and become a capital war.
    0:01:51 United States of Debt, as read by George Hahn.
    0:02:08 Quote, I would like to come back as the bond market.
    0:02:11 You can intimidate everybody.
    0:02:12 Unquote.
    0:02:14 James Carville.
    0:02:18 America is blinking.
    0:02:26 The day after April Fool’s Day, President Trump liberated the United States from an eight-decade run as the world’s economic superpower,
    0:02:32 raising the cost of capital for the federal government, American companies, and consumers.
    0:02:40 If this sounds like stupidity, i.e. hurting others while also hurting yourself, trust your instincts.
    0:02:44 But don’t trust America.
    0:02:48 A blackout drunk is behind the wheel of the U.S. economy.
    0:02:56 All around us, horns, bear markets, consumer confidence plummeting to historic lows, are blaring.
    0:03:06 In the back seat is a cultist, the GOP, who thinks the red lights Trump has blown through and the accidents in his wake are baller moves.
    0:03:16 Also in the back seat, a sulking teen, the Democrats, who’s visibly upset but can’t articulate what they want or suggest a better route.
    0:03:22 Riding shotgun, though, is an adult the driver can’t ignore.
    0:03:24 The bond market.
    0:03:32 First-year economics students are taught that money evolved to make early barter systems practical.
    0:03:45 In his book, debt, the first 5,000 years, anthropologist David Graeber argues that the barter story was likely a fiction created by Adam Smith.
    0:03:51 Graeber believes the earliest coins were actually tokens used to keep track of debt.
    0:04:16 Debt is both a financial instrument and a social construct that binds people, firms, and nations to one another and links together the past, present, and future.
    0:04:28 As many anthropologists have pointed out, debt has moral implications around fairness, responsibility, and obligation, as it’s a tool through which we impose order.
    0:04:42 Historically, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam outlawed interest under most circumstances, counseled their followers against taking on debt, and advised debtors to repay loans promptly.
    0:04:49 When someone saves another person’s life, the person they rescued is said to be in their debt.
    0:04:56 When a criminal has served their sentence, they’re said to have repaid their debt to society.
    0:05:06 In a debt crisis, the real risk is not default, but a breakdown of the economic, social, and political orders.
    0:05:09 How bad is this debt crisis?
    0:05:11 It’s too early to tell.
    0:05:16 But as former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers explained,
    0:05:22 what has people most scared is the real-time erosion of the American-led economic order.
    0:05:34 Our reputation as a bastion of strength and stability, with our dollar and treasuries representing safety, is in jeopardy.
    0:05:46 Increasingly, we resemble an emerging economy, where a crisis in confidence sends stocks, bonds, and currencies down and spikes interest rates.
    0:05:48 Quote,
    0:05:58 If the United States isn’t credible, that makes the whole financial system less stable, Summers said, adding,
    0:06:03 We are more vulnerable to bad surprises from here than to good surprises.
    0:06:04 Unquote.
    0:06:23 This week, Fed Chair Jerome Powell warned that Trump’s trade policy and the resulting uncertainty may put us in
    0:06:46 Since World War II, the U.S. dollar and U.S. treasuries have been the backbone of the global economy.
    0:07:00 Charles de Gaulle called this exorbitant privilege, as it creates an asymmetrical financial system where foreign governments effectively subsidize American living standards and firms.
    0:07:04 Just how exorbitant is difficult to quantify.
    0:07:14 But as economist Barry Eichengreen argued, the privilege isn’t what it was in the 1960s when de Gaulle complained that America was far too powerful.
    0:07:29 Still, our exorbitant privilege is a benefit, not a liability, as reliance on U.S. currency and debt lowers our cost of capital and increases the punching power of our economic sanctions.
    0:07:42 But in the wake of Liberation Day, analysts at Societe Generale, Deutsche Bank, and Goldman Sachs expressed concern that America’s privilege is eroding.
    0:07:51 A financial adage, frequently attributed to John Maynard Keynes, John Paul Getty, and others.
    0:07:51 Quote,
    0:07:56 If you owe the bank $100, that’s your problem.
    0:08:01 If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem.
    0:08:02 Unquote.
    0:08:05 This is the paradox of debt.
    0:08:28 Trump, who bragged that he was the king of debt during his 2016 campaign, has leveraged this paradox his entire career, filing for bankruptcy six times.
    0:08:32 But compared to the federal government, Trump is a lightweight.
    0:08:43 Despite decades of warnings from economists and business leaders, increasing the debt is one of the longest-running bipartisan traditions in Congress.
    0:08:53 Conservatives, teetotalers, campaign as deficit hawks, then vote to increase the debt for unfunded tax cuts.
    0:09:05 Liberals, social drinkers, deprioritize debt by pairing big spending initiatives with modest proposals to increase revenue, i.e. taxes.
    0:09:23 And progressives, full-blown alcoholics, champion modern monetary theory, which holds that governments, with control over their own currency, can finance spending without worrying about deficits or debt, as long as they manage inflation.
    0:09:25 How’s that working out?
    0:09:29 America is drunk on debt.
    0:09:33 We continue to drink at the bar long after last call.
    0:09:38 Spiking bond yields and the declining dollar are interventions.
    0:09:41 It’s not too late to get sober, however.
    0:09:47 I believe we should do it for our kids, as debt is a tax on future generations.
    0:09:54 But as I argued in my TED Talk, despite saying we love our children, we’re waging war on them.
    0:09:57 There’s another reason to sober up.
    0:09:59 Self-preservation.
    0:10:11 Sovereign debt crises have been the green mile of empires, from ancient Rome to the French monarchy to the Ottoman and British empires to the Soviet Union.
    0:10:17 America is exceptional in many ways, but we’re not exempt from history.
    0:10:21 Countries typically are not conquered, but go broke.
    0:10:29 In budgetary terms, some people call the U.S. an insurance company with an army.
    0:10:40 This is correct insofar as our largest deliverables are the greatest military in history and a social safety net that lags behind those of other industrialized nations.
    0:11:08 If current laws remain the same, net interest payments will total $13.8 trillion over the next decade, rising from an annual cost of $1.0 trillion in 2026 to $1.8 trillion in 2035,
    0:11:22 According to CBO projections, rising interest rates increase the VIG, crowding out mandatory and discretionary spending as well as our capacity to respond to future crises.
    0:11:32 General Omar Bradley once said, amateurs talk strategy, professionals talk logistics.
    0:11:43 His point was that war plans, even when the defense secretary doesn’t drunkenly share them with the Atlantic’s editor-in-chief on Signal, don’t count for much.
    0:11:51 It’s the unsexy stuff, supply lines, resources, and infrastructure, that wins wars.
    0:11:56 The world’s least sexy financial instruments are U.S. treasuries.
    0:12:17 U.S. debt is both a shield that protects us from higher borrowing costs and a sword that, when used in conjunction with the dollar as the global reserve currency, guarantees American economic hegemony.
    0:12:25 But as with any weapon, if we lose control of it, our debt can be used against us.
    0:12:30 The U.S. debt is roughly $36 trillion.
    0:12:40 Nearly three-quarters of that debt is held by U.S. investors, the Fed, and various federal agencies, including the Social Security Administration.
    0:12:43 The rest is held by foreign investors.
    0:12:49 China is currently the second largest foreign holder of treasuries, behind Japan.
    0:12:59 After last week’s shitshow, some analysts asked, without hard evidence, whether China was to blame for bond market volatility.
    0:13:02 That question misses the point.
    0:13:12 It’s not what China did or didn’t do, but rather what it’s capable of doing, now that the blinker-in-chief has put a spotlight on our Achilles’ heel.
    0:13:22 Dumping treasuries raises U.S. borrowing costs and, more important, undermines global trust in American leadership.
    0:13:31 It also hurts China, as a fire sale means they’ll take losses, too, and a possible recession hurts everyone.
    0:13:38 Beijing’s fear of that economic pain has been a strong deterrent, until now.
    0:13:49 A trade war makes the pain real, meaning China has a lot less to lose, and potentially something to gain, by using our debt against us.
    0:13:53 And China has a pain multiplier here.
    0:14:05 An increase of 50 basis points on a $36 trillion debt adds about $180 billion per year in additional interest.
    0:14:16 An equivalent of 13 aircraft carriers, we currently have 11, or $30 billion more than Doge claims it’ll save taxpayers this year.
    0:14:21 Our debt isn’t our only vulnerability.
    0:14:29 China holds $3.2 trillion U.S. dollars, more than any other foreign nation.
    0:14:38 Devaluing the U.S. dollar in the face of rising inflation would hurt Americans, as they’d pay even more for less.
    0:14:50 China’s mortgage-backed securities position is less clear, but as one of the top three foreign MBS holders, it has the power to spook an already troubled housing market.
    0:15:00 China’s leading export partners are ASEAN, a 10-nation trading bloc in Southeast Asia, and the EU, followed by the U.S.
    0:15:09 Decoupling hurts both countries, but it hurts us more, as our exposure is greater and our pain tolerance lower.
    0:15:16 Remember, Americans freaked out about toilet paper and masks during COVID.
    0:15:19 China did actual lockdowns.
    0:15:23 We lost 36,000 service members fighting in Korea.
    0:15:28 Before tapping out, China suffered 10 times the casualties.
    0:15:35 We don’t have the tolerance for pain to exchange fire in an economic war with China.
    0:15:41 Ask Bo and Yang who’s more willing to endure hardship for the glory of their nation.
    0:15:51 In the same week that U.S. Treasuries surged 50 basis points, yields on German buns were largely unchanged.
    0:15:56 According to Bloomberg, that’s the biggest underperformance since 1989.
    0:16:05 In non-financial terms, as investors lost trust in the U.S., they found safety in Germany.
    0:16:11 One fixed income portfolio manager put it this way, quote,
    0:16:20 Buns have been one of the only rate markets that has acted as a risk-off asset during recent volatility, unquote.
    0:16:23 Are Buns the new T-bill?
    0:16:25 Too soon to tell.
    0:16:30 But if last week kicked off a debt crisis that unravels the world order,
    0:16:35 Germany, even allowing for a recent increase in defense spending,
    0:16:41 looks like a paragon of fiscal responsibility compared to other industrialized nations.
    0:16:51 Ostensibly, HBO’s Game of Thrones was a show about knights, dragons, Arctic zombies, and hot people.
    0:17:00 But underneath the veneer of sex and violence, the show was an epic story about the relationship between debt and power.
    0:17:06 As three economists who analyzed the political economy of Westeros wrote, quote,
    0:17:12 Those who control the purse strings of the realm thereby acquire political power.
    0:17:20 And although it is a foreign institution, the Iron Bank becomes a key political player in Westeros, unquote.
    0:17:27 Full faith and credit is American for a Lannister always pays his debts.
    0:17:37 Instead of a mad king sitting on the Iron Throne, we have a very unstable genius, minus the genius, sitting behind the resolute desk.
    0:17:44 His small council of sycophants know better, but drunk on a cocktail of fear and greed,
    0:17:48 they cheer him on, claiming he’s playing 4D chess.
    0:17:55 This is the bullshit we hear from the Sparrows, who can’t offer a counter-argument to what is depressingly clear.
    0:18:00 The president’s actions are nuclear-grade stupidity.
    0:18:02 Chess?
    0:18:06 At this point, the Western world is expecting him to eat the pieces.
    0:18:14 Trump’s game isn’t chess or checkers, but Russian roulette with bullets in five of the six chambers.
    0:18:23 The interpretive dancing and intellectual pretzeling of the remaining cultists doesn’t fool the Iron Bank,
    0:18:25 a.k.a. America’s creditors.
    0:18:34 In season one of True Detective, hashtag awesome, Matthew McConaughey needs something from his former partner, Woody Harrelson.
    0:18:37 McConaughey convinces him with a simple statement.
    0:18:45 you have a debt, calling on his sense of equity and a bond they share to reciprocate.
    0:18:55 Europe, China, the Middle East, and America all, at one time, imprisoned people who couldn’t pay their debts.
    0:19:02 With 4% of the world’s population and 25% of global GDP,
    0:19:05 we have a debt to our allies,
    0:19:13 who’ve engaged in relationships that provide roughly 6x the prosperity relative to the rest of the world.
    0:19:20 However, that hasn’t been enough, and we’ve accrued unsustainable debt.
    0:19:26 From George Washington through George W. Bush, we borrowed $10 trillion.
    0:19:32 During the first Trump administration, we borrowed $8 trillion.
    0:19:35 Biden was $4 trillion.
    0:19:41 We find ourselves ignorant of our debts and in a prison of our own making,
    0:19:46 a giant with feet of clay, ignorant to our vulnerabilities.
    0:19:52 In sum, we, America, are acting like assholes.
    0:19:57 Life is so rich.

    As read by George Hahn.

    United States of Debt

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  • How much for that egg

    Recently, one of our NPR colleagues wrote a message to all of NPR saying he had extra eggs to sell for cheap, but needed a fair way to distribute them during a shortage. What is Planet Money here for if not to get OVERLY involved in this kind of situation?

    Our colleague didn’t want to charge more than $5, so we couldn’t just auction the eggs off. A lottery? Too boring, he said.

    Okay! A very Planet Money puzzle to solve.

    Today on the show, we go in search of novel systems to help our colleague decide who gets his scarce resource: cheap, farm-fresh eggs. We steal from the world of new product development to try and secretly test for egg love, and we discover a pricing method used in development economics that may be America’s next great gameshow.

    This episode of Planet Money was produced by Emma Peaslee and it was edited by Marianne McCune. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez and engineered by Jimmy Keeley. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer.

    Find more Planet Money: Facebook / Instagram / TikTok / Our weekly Newsletter.

    Listen free at these links: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the NPR app or anywhere you get podcasts.

    Help support Planet Money and hear our bonus episodes by subscribing to Planet Money+ in Apple Podcasts or at plus.npr.org/planetmoney.

    Music: NPR Source Audio – “Punchy Punchline,” “Game Face,” “Feeling the Funk,” and “The Host Most Wanted”

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  • 630. On Broadway, Nobody Knows Nothing

    AI transcript
    0:00:09 The people who make theater exist in a sort of parallel universe.
    0:00:12 From inside this universe, it can seem vast.
    0:00:18 There are so many projects, the work itself is so immersive, and let’s be honest, there
    0:00:20 is a lot of gossip to keep up with.
    0:00:27 But in reality, theater is a tiny universe when you compare it to all the other flashier
    0:00:32 forms of entertainment, like TV and film, live music and sports, video gaming.
    0:00:36 The theater universe looks like a distant and dimming star.
    0:00:41 And yet, believers still believe.
    0:00:49 And every now and then, someone takes a shot that is so unlikely, so audacious, and if that
    0:00:55 shot lands, it rejuvenates the whole enterprise and makes the larger world take notice.
    0:01:01 In other words, this tiny universe really can produce one singular sensation.
    0:01:04 And I’ll start from a personal note.
    0:01:16 My son had been on vacation, and he came back, and we’re 15 blocks apart, so he usually comes
    0:01:17 for breakfast.
    0:01:21 And says, well, my next show, it’s Hamilton.
    0:01:30 And I’m like, the secretary of the treasury of the United States of America?
    0:01:37 He’s like, yes, I just read this amazing, and as I’m reading it…
    0:01:40 This is the Ron Chernow biography of Hamilton, correct?
    0:01:40 Of Hamilton, correct.
    0:01:43 He’s telling the story to my wife and I.
    0:01:51 I see hip-hop singers jumping off the pages in my head.
    0:01:54 I’m like, he went f***ing crazy.
    0:02:27 Hamilton wound up becoming one of the most compelling successes in any form of entertainment at any time in history.
    0:02:36 It made the dimming, distant star of Broadway shine very bright, and it gave Luis Miranda a new full-time job.
    0:02:41 I do all of the philanthropy for the Miranda family.
    0:02:52 I oversee all of Lin-Manuel’s companies and argue with him about what he should or should not do.
    0:02:53 It usually ignores me.
    0:02:58 Everyone knows that Lin-Manuel Miranda became a major player because of Hamilton.
    0:03:01 But his father was the original player.
    0:03:09 He’s a longtime political operative and activist in New York City who has worked with mayors, senators, and many others.
    0:03:15 The theater of politics and the theater on a stage are very, very similar.
    0:03:23 Lin-Manuel says all the time that I go through the world collecting money for candidates,
    0:03:26 and probably half of them never have a chance.
    0:03:29 But they’re fights that you must fight.
    0:03:31 Theater is a bit the same way.
    0:03:35 You go and collect lots of money and most of the shows don’t make it.
    0:03:38 The same way that many candidates won’t make it.
    0:03:42 But there’s art that needs to be made.
    0:03:43 Some shows.
    0:03:46 I always wonder, why did they do that?
    0:03:49 But hey, someone had a dream.
    0:03:53 Luis Miranda himself had a dream for his son.
    0:03:59 I wanted him to be president of the United States, the first Puerto Rican president of the United States of America.
    0:04:02 And I know he could have done it.
    0:04:05 He is so good at it.
    0:04:08 I see him meeting with elected officials.
    0:04:10 He’s so charming.
    0:04:14 But faithful to his beliefs.
    0:04:18 You’re not going to convince him to say something he doesn’t believe in.
    0:04:21 But Lin-Manuel wanted to do something different.
    0:04:25 When he was an undergrad at Wesleyan, he started writing a musical called In the Heights,
    0:04:30 a boisterous story about the spirit of community set in Washington Heights,
    0:04:33 a New York neighborhood close to where the Mirandas lived.
    0:04:38 Lin-Manuel and his friends, all very arrogant young people,
    0:04:44 they needed money to hire the actors and really further develop.
    0:04:46 I asked, how much do you need?
    0:04:48 And he said, $40,000.
    0:04:50 I’m like, no, he’s going to give you $40,000.
    0:04:54 This is 2005, 2006.
    0:04:57 I said, but I know what I’ll do.
    0:05:03 I’ll ask my friend, who’s the artistic director of Repertorio Español, Spanish repertoire,
    0:05:05 to lend me the theater.
    0:05:07 You guys do a reading.
    0:05:12 We’ll invite people and we’ll ask them $1,000 a pop.
    0:05:13 A backers audition, this is.
    0:05:14 Correct.
    0:05:18 Friends coming together because you’re telling them that your kid is good.
    0:05:25 In the Heights eventually made it to Broadway, where it won four Tony Awards and ran for nearly three years.
    0:05:30 Not long after that came Hamilton, which turned out to be a billion-dollar franchise.
    0:05:33 There’s an old cliche about Broadway.
    0:05:36 You can make a killing, but not a living.
    0:05:43 There is an occasional smash hit like Hamilton, but much more common are the failures and the flops,
    0:05:49 which don’t cost any less to produce than the hits and leave behind a trail of regret.
    0:05:56 And yet there is no shortage of producers, investors, writers, and composers willing to give it a try.
    0:05:57 Why?
    0:06:02 Because almost no one gets into the theater just to have a career.
    0:06:05 Like I said, the believers believe.
    0:06:09 I believe that producing more art makes a society healthier.
    0:06:10 Do you have evidence?
    0:06:11 Yes.
    0:06:22 I’m a poor kid from a small town in Puerto Rico that somehow felt that musicals were fantastic.
    0:06:26 I didn’t know what they were singing.
    0:06:34 Do you understand that I’m listening to s**t and I have no clue what they are singing?
    0:06:43 But there was something attractive, magnetic, magical about the form.
    0:06:53 Arts can create wealth, but it speaks to a different part of who we are as humans and as a society.
    0:06:58 Luis Miranda recently published a memoir about his work in politics and beyond.
    0:06:59 It’s called Relentless.
    0:07:04 As nice as I seem, he writes, I was and continue to be relentless.
    0:07:06 I don’t back down.
    0:07:11 I try to work with people, but if I can’t, I throw an elbow and see where it lands.
    0:07:18 Today on Freakonomics Radio, part two of our three-part series on the economics of the theater industry.
    0:07:23 Last week, we started following a musical called Three Summers of Lincoln as it was being built from scratch.
    0:07:25 We will get back to that story later.
    0:07:29 But today’s episode is mostly about something else.
    0:07:33 Today’s episode is about how to be relentless.
    0:07:52 This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.
    0:08:03 Someone took a chance, only Manuel.
    0:08:08 And for me, you never finish paying for that.
    0:08:10 Who was it that took a chance on him?
    0:08:11 Jeffrey Seller.
    0:08:14 Good afternoon.
    0:08:16 Jeffrey Seller here.
    0:08:20 I am the producer of Hamilton on Broadway and all over the world.
    0:08:24 When Seller and I spoke, he had two shows running on Broadway.
    0:08:27 Hamilton, which is about to celebrate its 10th season.
    0:08:30 And a revival of Stephen Sondheim’s Sweeney Todd.
    0:08:33 His past credits include Rent and Avenue Q.
    0:08:37 Seller is also about to publish a memoir called Theater Kid.
    0:08:41 He grew up in a chaotic working-class family in a Detroit suburb.
    0:08:44 I came to New York with my bar mitzvah money.
    0:08:49 I had maybe $1,100, $10,000 of student debt.
    0:08:52 And my first job netted me $205 a week in 1986.
    0:08:54 So I had no money.
    0:08:55 I had no family money.
    0:08:59 There was no one in my family I could ever call to say, could you put $20,000 or $10,000?
    0:09:00 I mean, that would be a joke.
    0:09:06 But Seller kept at it and defied the odds to become one of the most successful Broadway producers of his generation.
    0:09:11 We should say here that the word producer can mean a few different things in live theater.
    0:09:16 It can mean that you originate a project, whether financially, creatively, or both.
    0:09:19 That’s what Seller calls a holistic producer.
    0:09:22 Or it could mean that you are primarily just a cash contributor.
    0:09:29 Those are investors who we rely on.
    0:09:33 And by we, I mean the audience relies upon them.
    0:09:36 Us holistic producers rely upon them.
    0:09:39 Historically, they were called dilettantes.
    0:09:41 And it wasn’t necessarily a pejorative.
    0:09:46 It was just a description of an arts lover and an arts supporter.
    0:09:51 Is there a relatively infinite supply of the people formerly known as dilettantes?
    0:09:59 There is an interesting pattern, which is that by the late 70s and the 80s, there were very few investors on Broadway.
    0:10:17 If you look back to the 1980s, if you remove the four British mega hits, Cats, Les Mis, Phantom, and Miss Saigon, all produced by Cameron Mackintosh, we had very little musical theater or legitimate play theater going on on Broadway.
    0:10:20 People with money had not yet discovered Broadway.
    0:10:24 Maybe they discovered the world of visual art first.
    0:10:32 But a lot of people with money started to discover Broadway, enjoy going to Broadway, and enjoy investing in Broadway.
    0:10:39 We are producing more musicals every year as a result of that activity.
    0:10:49 What Jeffrey Seller didn’t say there was that a modern Broadway producer needs all those outside investors because it has become so much more expensive to create and run a show.
    0:10:51 We’ll get into that as we go.
    0:10:56 I asked Seller to tell me how he came to take a chance on Lin-Manuel Miranda.
    0:11:04 Lin and his colleagues, Tommy Kail, who’s his director, they walked in my office in the summer of 2003.
    0:11:06 None of them were 30.
    0:11:08 They weren’t even close to 30.
    0:11:13 They were courageous and adorable and fun.
    0:11:22 And the next thing I did is I went and watched them do Freestyle Love Supreme, their hip-hop improvisation show.
    0:11:24 Your last word is fracking.
    0:11:25 The last word is fracking.
    0:11:29 And I am attacking this beat because it’s sweet to be back on this street Broadway.
    0:11:32 Ever since I was a little kid, this was my only dream.
    0:11:34 The only shit I ever wanted to did.
    0:11:35 Or do I mean do?
    0:11:35 I don’t know.
    0:11:36 I like it.
    0:11:38 Jesus, guys, I am so fracking excited.
    0:11:43 And I thought, oh, Lin is a genius.
    0:11:47 How is he making these raps up on his feet?
    0:11:51 So I knew I was in the presence of sheer brilliance.
    0:11:59 When I experience a new musical, I want the music to prick my ear in a different way.
    0:12:05 And we created a reading of In the Heights with a small band.
    0:12:07 And this was my first experience of it.
    0:12:16 When Lin came out and started that warm, enveloping rap, lights up on Washington Heights up at the break of day.
    0:12:19 Lights up on Washington Heights up at the break of day.
    0:12:22 I wake up and I got this little punk I gotta chase away.
    0:12:24 Pop the grade at the crack of dawn.
    0:12:26 Sing while I wipe down the awning.
    0:12:27 Hey, y’all, good morning.
    0:12:32 And then this gorgeous chorus joined behind him singing In the Heights.
    0:12:55 I thought, I’ve never heard rap and Broadway choral music married together so beautifully.
    0:12:59 It made the hair on my arm stand up.
    0:13:00 And I was in.
    0:13:10 So Jeffrey Seller produced In the Heights on Broadway, where Lin-Manuel Miranda announced himself as a rare double threat, a theatrical writer who starred in his own shows.
    0:13:16 And while performing In the Heights, eight shows a week, he began developing Hamilton.
    0:13:19 Seller first read the Hamilton script in 2014.
    0:13:23 I’m an atheist, but it felt like there was divine intervention.
    0:13:29 I mean, if God was over Michelangelo’s shoulders, then he was over Lin’s shoulders as well.
    0:13:41 Hamilton had its opening run at the nonprofit Public Theater, a downtown institution known for producing Shakespeare in the Park and for having originated a number of Broadway hits, including a chorus line.
    0:13:50 After a few months at the public, Hamilton moved uptown to Broadway and quickly became a monster hit, with premium tickets selling for over $1,000.
    0:13:55 And the world’s gonna know your name, what’s your name, man?
    0:13:56 Alexander Hamilton.
    0:14:00 My name is Alexander Hamilton.
    0:14:04 And there’s a million things I haven’t done.
    0:14:09 But just you wait, just you wait.
    0:14:13 Today, Hamilton tickets go for an average of around $190.
    0:14:18 And what about the other show that Jeffrey Seller had on Broadway when we spoke?
    0:14:22 A full price ticket, Sweeney Todd, $229.
    0:14:22 Okay.
    0:14:24 So of all…
    0:14:24 Why?
    0:14:27 Why does that ticket have to be $229?
    0:14:28 Correct.
    0:14:34 Because I employ, to do that show, every night, almost 100 people.
    0:14:41 The good news is that every single one of those people is making well over $2,000 a week.
    0:14:51 And because they have a great union, they are making benefits that drive their salary closer to $3,000 a week.
    0:14:56 And as a producer, not as a human, but as a producer, how do you feel about that?
    0:15:04 I am concerned today that we’re losing the ability to hit, in baseball terms, a double.
    0:15:10 When I did Avenue Q, the show cost $3.5 million to put on Broadway.
    0:15:13 Same capitalization as Rent did six years before that.
    0:15:20 We could operate the show, that means how much it costs every single week to run, for about $325,000.
    0:15:25 So if we were grossing $500,000 a week, we were making a nice little profit.
    0:15:31 And by the way, Avenue Q won the Tony, ran on Broadway for six years, and was what I call a solid double.
    0:15:37 Same exact formula for In the Heights, which came five years after that.
    0:15:44 However, it was more expensive, there were 30 people on stage, more musicians, more scenery, more costumes.
    0:15:54 But it still was able to break even on Broadway every week for only $450,000, which means that if I’m grossing $700 a week, I’m still making a little profit.
    0:16:02 Today, shows like Avenue Q, or In the Heights, are costing $10,000, $12 million.
    0:16:06 That’s more money I have to earn back.
    0:16:17 And the operating costs, instead of being $300,000, $400,000, $500,000, are $700,000, $800,000, in my case for Sweeney Todd, over $900,000.
    0:16:21 And that massive inflation is being driven primarily by what?
    0:16:36 It’s being driven by higher labor costs, higher rental costs for equipment, higher production costs for building sets, higher production costs for building costumes, higher rent from the landlords.
    0:16:44 It is also true that there is nothing I can do to become more efficient.
    0:16:49 I need those 26 to 35 actors.
    0:16:51 I cannot do it with less.
    0:16:56 In the case of Sweeney Todd, I need those 26 musicians.
    0:16:58 That’s what I signed up for.
    0:16:59 That’s what it takes.
    0:17:12 Okay, if we’re talking production costs and efficiency and inflation, it’s probably time to bring in an economist.
    0:17:13 I’m Michael Rushton.
    0:17:21 I’m a professor in the O’Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs at Indiana University, and I teach in our arts administration program.
    0:17:26 How would you describe the major areas of your research and interest?
    0:17:35 I’m one of that small group of people known as cultural economists who apply economic methods to looking at the arts and different issues in the arts.
    0:17:40 I have to say, you are a small group, because even you weren’t easy for us to find.
    0:17:40 Yes.
    0:17:45 So why are you trafficking in this area that seemingly few people care about?
    0:17:58 What I have found is that many of the cultural economists began their careers, like I did, being an ordinary mainstream muggle economist, studying public finance and labor economics and so on.
    0:18:01 And then you discover, oh, there’s a group that does this.
    0:18:08 And actually, the questions are really interesting around the film industry, performing arts and paintings and auctions.
    0:18:16 This has been an active field, I would say, since the 1960s, when William Bommel and William Bowen first came up with their theory of cost disease.
    0:18:31 Okay, we need to slow down here for a second, because this theory that Rushton just mentioned, cost disease, can explain a lot about the theater industry and some other much larger industries.
    0:18:36 The theory is famous among economists, but not as widely known as it ought to be.
    0:18:44 The original paper by Bommel and Bowen was called On the Performing Arts, the Anatomy of Their Economic Problems.
    0:18:56 Their insight was regarding technical change, and in particular, in what sectors can you have labor-saving technological change, and in what sectors is that going to be very difficult to achieve?
    0:19:04 When they looked at the live performing arts, they said, well, here is an area where labor-saving technological change is going to be really rare.
    0:19:07 You can’t reduce the number of players in your orchestra.
    0:19:11 You can’t reduce the number of casts you need to put on a performance of Macbeth.
    0:19:20 And wages have to rise with the rest of the economy, which means constantly your costs are going to be rising.
    0:19:22 And in theaters right now, we see that.
    0:19:30 If you speak to any theater producer who is saying, well, we’re struggling to get by, one of the first things they say is, our costs keep going up.
    0:19:33 And the main cost that they face is labor.
    0:19:34 You have to pay your performers.
    0:19:35 You’ve got to pay your crew.
    0:19:37 You’ve got to pay your back office staff.
    0:19:42 And it’s just really hard to save on those kinds of numbers.
    0:19:44 So here’s their foundational paper.
    0:19:47 This is from the American Economic Review of 1965.
    0:20:00 They wrote, in order to join the ranks of the rising productivity industries, the arts would somehow have to learn not only to increase output per man hour, but to continue to do so into the indefinite future.
    0:20:14 Otherwise, they must at some juncture fall behind the technologically progressive industries and experience increases in costs which stem not from their own decisions, but from the inexorable march of technological change in other parts of the economy.
    0:20:18 On a scale of 0 to 10, how true did that prediction become?
    0:20:19 10 out of 10.
    0:20:27 We see the pressures of cost disease in all of the sectors that Bommel and Bowen mentioned where you can’t really save on labor.
    0:20:29 Education would be one example.
    0:20:38 A teacher can only handle so many students at a time, and teachers’ wages have to rise with the rest of the economy, or nobody’s going to want to be a teacher anymore.
    0:20:44 Healthcare is another example, and it’s an interesting one because we think, well, there’s been lots of technological change in healthcare.
    0:20:45 We have all these machines now.
    0:20:47 We have all these new pharmaceuticals.
    0:20:48 That’s very, very true.
    0:20:54 But a large part of your healthcare costs are labor, paying nurses, paying technicians.
    0:21:00 You can’t just say, well, one nurse can handle 200 patients at once now because of technological change.
    0:21:04 So I don’t mean to insult your profession, but here’s a question.
    0:21:13 This was a paper written, you know, nearly 60 years ago that laid out exactly the problem that we’re seeing not only in theater and the other performing arts,
    0:21:17 but in, as you said, healthcare and education, which are much, much bigger sectors.
    0:21:27 It strikes me that a lot of people are still flabbergasted that costs in things like education and healthcare have risen so much relative to other things.
    0:21:35 In other words, Bommel’s cost disease has been around and understood and preached by economists for nearly 60 years,
    0:21:39 but it seems that no solution has arisen to actually combat the problem.
    0:21:41 Why do you think that is?
    0:21:44 Is that a failure of economists to communicate the problem?
    0:21:48 Is it a failure of economists and others to come up with viable solutions?
    0:21:50 Is it a failure of policymakers?
    0:21:56 Or is this just the way things are and humankind has to figure out different ways to do things?
    0:21:59 I think there is a communication issue.
    0:22:02 The first thing is actually calling it cost disease.
    0:22:04 What is it resulting from?
    0:22:06 It’s resulting from our getting richer.
    0:22:14 You only have cost disease because the economy as a whole is becoming more productive and real incomes are rising.
    0:22:18 So that seems like an odd disease where you say, yes, we’re all getting richer.
    0:22:24 What cost disease is referring to is that productivity changes are going to be different across sectors.
    0:22:28 Over time, manufactured goods have become far, far cheaper.
    0:22:30 Raw food production has become cheaper.
    0:22:32 Transportation has become cheaper.
    0:22:37 Other things that involve personal services are going to get more expensive.
    0:22:42 Haircuts, teaching, massages, live theater.
    0:22:50 Agatha Christie famously remarked that when she was young, she never thought she would be so rich as to be able to own her own motor car
    0:22:52 and so poor that she wouldn’t be able to have servants.
    0:23:07 So, Michael, I guess if you wanted to put a positive spin on this, you could say that we as an economy, as a culture, as a civilization are rich enough to spend an ever larger portion of our income on important things like education and health care.
    0:23:22 Yes, we are getting richer and we have more income to be able to spend on education, health care, personal services and the arts because other things in our economy have become so much cheaper.
    0:23:32 Once you know how cost disease works, you see it in a variety of places, including Hollywood.
    0:23:38 The economics of the movie industry is easily as weird and interesting as the economics of live theater.
    0:23:40 Maybe we’ll do a series on that someday.
    0:23:50 It used to be that successful films would generate a lot of money for their creators, but that is no longer necessarily the case, especially for independent filmmakers.
    0:23:55 Two of the most acclaimed films from last year were Anora and The Brutalist.
    0:24:04 The filmmakers behind them, Sean Baker and Brady Corbett, have both described how the costs of making the film were so extreme that they were barely able to pay themselves.
    0:24:09 So, what do you do if you are making theater and losing money?
    0:24:12 Here’s the producer Jeffrey Seller again.
    0:24:13 I have two choices.
    0:24:17 Close my show or put more money in the bank so I can finance the losses every week.
    0:24:22 So, now you’ve just gotten to the second most important decision a producer has to make.
    0:24:24 After, what show will I do?
    0:24:25 When do I close?
    0:24:34 When the amount of money I bring in every week is less than the amount of money I need to operate my business, I close.
    0:24:36 What happened with Funny Girl?
    0:24:37 Can you explain that?
    0:24:45 Where it looked like it was destined for an early and huge loss and then it ended up recouping like the week before it closed.
    0:24:45 What happened?
    0:24:57 Well, what happened is that a young, talented star named Lea Michele came and completely 180 degrees turned that show around.
    0:24:59 Now, why would it then not extend?
    0:25:01 Was the theater already spoken for?
    0:25:11 I think they had her for a year and stars like Lea Michele or Josh Groban, to get them to come to Broadway for a year is a wonderful thing.
    0:25:16 And it’s very rare that you would get someone of that caliber to extend.
    0:25:21 Many stars, when they come to Broadway to do a play, will come to do like a 12-week run and they’re gone.
    0:25:26 Asking a star to play 52 weeks is an enormous lift.
    0:25:39 And only special stars who love musicals, Hugh Jackman, Lea Michele, Josh Groban, are willing to do that because of their deep love for the form.
    0:25:51 Coming up after the break, yes, paying all those performers and backstage personnel is a huge cost center for a theatrical producer.
    0:25:54 But you also have to rent a theater.
    0:25:57 And the economics of that are particularly tricky.
    0:26:00 There’s only so many blocks that make up Broadway.
    0:26:20 As we started putting together this series on the economics of live theater, we spoke with all sorts of people.
    0:26:24 Producers, writers, performers, economists, historians.
    0:26:28 There are a lot of people in this ecosystem, and we wanted to hear from all of them.
    0:26:32 But there was one group of people that would not speak.
    0:26:34 The big theater owners, the landlords.
    0:26:39 They are the ones who own the buildings and decide which shows are coming in.
    0:26:43 They employ ticket takers and ushers, bartenders and security guards.
    0:26:48 The landlords are thought of as members of the Broadway community.
    0:26:53 But that’s a bit like saying that the royal family are members of the British community.
    0:26:58 Their position comes with a guaranteed level of wealth and leverage.
    0:27:02 There’s only so many blocks that make up Broadway, per se, and there’s only so much land.
    0:27:07 Like Will Rogers said, buy land because they’re not making any more of it.
    0:27:11 My name is Hal Luftig, and I’m a Broadway producer.
    0:27:23 Some of my credits include Here Lies Love, The Life of Pi, Legally Blonde, The Revival of Evita, Thoroughly Modern Millie, Kinky Boots.
    0:27:24 And it goes on.
    0:27:27 I’ve been doing this for 30-something years.
    0:27:34 To this day, I still get excited like a little butterfly effect in my stomach when I walk into a theater.
    0:27:42 The smell of it, the dink of it, being walked to your seat, getting a hand in a playbill, sitting there knowing the curtain’s going to go up.
    0:27:51 And you, with all the people sitting around you, are going to be, you know, watching and laughing or crying at the same thing.
    0:27:55 There are 41 theaters in New York that qualify as Broadway houses.
    0:28:07 33 of them are owned or operated by one of three groups, the Schubert Organization, the Nederlander Organization, and ATG Entertainment, formerly known as the Ambassador Theater Group.
    0:28:11 The Schubert’s and Nederlanders have been around for generations.
    0:28:17 ATG is a British newcomer that is majority owned by a Rhode Island private equity firm.
    0:28:20 All of them declined our interview requests.
    0:28:23 I mentioned this to Hal Luftig.
    0:28:27 The landlords don’t want to talk.
    0:28:30 The theater owners have no interest in talking.
    0:28:34 Schubert, Nederlander, Disney, ATG, none of them want to talk.
    0:28:36 Gee, I wonder why that is.
    0:28:38 Maybe you can tell me.
    0:28:39 I don’t know why.
    0:28:41 Oh, yes, I will.
    0:28:42 All right, tell me.
    0:28:48 Theater owners now are a very big profit participant.
    0:28:51 And by profit, I don’t mean after the show makes money.
    0:28:53 First, they get all of their expenses.
    0:29:00 It’s called weekly rental, and that includes everything from payroll to toilet paper.
    0:29:07 On top of that, they get a weekly royalty, which could be 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%.
    0:29:10 It depends on the theater, the theater owner, the show.
    0:29:15 If the show is doing well, like a million dollars a week, do the math.
    0:29:18 So that is a chunk right there.
    0:29:25 And their costs have gone up, insurance, mortgage payments, interest rates, things like that.
    0:29:28 So they pass that right on to the show.
    0:29:32 That has changed over the years.
    0:29:33 How did it used to be?
    0:29:35 It used to be you paid a rent.
    0:29:38 There wasn’t really a royalty attached to it.
    0:29:47 It was in the 70s, 80s, where they realized they could make a whole lot more money.
    0:29:54 They also realized, why don’t you bump the tickets up $2 here and then $5 there?
    0:29:56 This is all before dynamic pricing.
    0:30:01 This was just, hey, if the show is successful, why sell a ticket for $25?
    0:30:02 That’s how far back we’re going.
    0:30:05 Liza Minnelli in the act was $25.
    0:30:08 And people were outraged, Stephen.
    0:30:12 I remember people thinking, what the hell, $25?
    0:30:19 When it opened and became sort of a hit, they bumped it up to $27.50.
    0:30:26 You shared in some of that, sure, as the show, but they got the lion’s share because of their royalty.
    0:30:30 So that’s how theater owners kind of work.
    0:30:34 I mean, it sounds like what most economists would think of as a monopoly.
    0:30:42 They have pretty total control over a limited capacity of places where people like you can do your work.
    0:30:43 Is that the way it seems from your end?
    0:30:45 Yes, it totally does.
    0:30:50 But they would say, and there’s part of me that does understand this,
    0:30:57 that when a theater is dark, they’re receiving no income and they do have all of these bills to pay.
    0:31:02 You know, if a show is in trouble, they’ll reduce the rent or they’ll waive the fee.
    0:31:04 So, yeah, they do help.
    0:31:12 Of the three major Broadway landlords, ATG is both the newest and the smallest.
    0:31:17 They bought out a firm called Jujamsen, which had been run for years by Rocco Landisman.
    0:31:20 He’s one of the producers we heard from in part one of this series.
    0:31:26 You will remember he got his start by producing a musical called Big River, the adventures of Huckleberry Finn.
    0:31:33 I asked him what it was like to compete against the bigger and more established landlords, the Schuberts and the Nederlanders.
    0:31:41 We had to find some way to make a name for ourselves, a way to get recognized, because we were the third wheel there.
    0:31:42 We were the smallest.
    0:31:44 We didn’t have the most desirable theaters.
    0:31:50 We had to find a way to create a profile for ourselves, a way to be identified.
    0:31:59 One way of doing it was to do plays that maybe were more normally done in regional theaters, because they were not obvious commercial plays.
    0:32:10 Our first successful show was M. Butterfly by David Henry Wong, which you wouldn’t think of as necessarily a conventional Broadway show, but it turned out to be very successful.
    0:32:14 The big turning point for us was Angels in America.
    0:32:26 We were in a fierce competition with Schubert for that show, and we were able to convince Tony Kushner, the author, that he should go with us, that we’d be more committed to him as a playwright, to his career.
    0:32:34 I remember telling Tony that, you know, everyone wants Angels in America, but you’re going to write the next play or the one after it that’s not as commercial, but we’re going to do it.
    0:32:39 We’re going to be there for you, and we’re committing to your career, not just to the one play.
    0:32:46 A couple of years ago, Drew Jamsen was sold to ATG in a deal valuing their theaters at around $300 million.
    0:32:51 ATG is thought of as a comer, in large part because of this woman.
    0:33:00 I was headhunted to be the producer of Ambassador Theatre Group, ATG, as they were called, in 1999, 2000.
    0:33:01 I was really young.
    0:33:03 That’s Sonia Friedman.
    0:33:09 She is the most prolific theatrical producer of our generation on Broadway, in London’s West End and beyond.
    0:33:12 She’s produced more than 200 shows.
    0:33:14 She’s won dozens of awards.
    0:33:18 It was Friedman, by the way, who brought in Lea Michele to save Funny Girl.
    0:33:23 By the time ATG headhunted her, she’d already had a good bit of success.
    0:33:27 Yeah, I’d had my own theater company, and I’d done quite a lot of West End work.
    0:33:41 I left the subsidized sector, the not-for-profit, as we call it here, to see if it is possible to do the same sort of work, but make it commercially viable.
    0:33:44 I mean, if we jump to the end, you kind of have done it, have you not?
    0:33:48 I’m not going to ever think I’ve sort of cracked it, because I haven’t.
    0:33:57 I’m always chastising myself for thinking I’m not working hard enough to find the new voices and not being brave enough.
    0:34:03 I want to be as fearless as I was when I first started producing.
    0:34:05 But back to ATG.
    0:34:09 The same model, bringing the fearless model into the commercial world?
    0:34:12 Yeah, bringing the fearless, and they were absolutely fantastic.
    0:34:17 This was two people, Howard Panter and Rosemary Squire, who founded ATG.
    0:34:20 They supported me, and they let me get on with it.
    0:34:32 Over the years, ATG got bigger and bigger, and at one point, I separated from them directly and formed my company, Sonia Friedman Productions.
    0:34:34 Totally separate, or were they an investor?
    0:34:37 The official word is subsidiary.
    0:34:38 I’m a subsidiary.
    0:34:50 But in terms of the running of the company, I’m completely, 100% creatively independent and raise the vast majority of the finance myself.
    0:34:52 It’s like a first-look deal with them.
    0:34:56 I absolutely have a partnership with them, but they basically leave me alone.
    0:35:01 As an essentially independent producer, though, you have access to their real estate.
    0:35:01 Well, yes.
    0:35:04 So as I was growing up in the business, they were growing, too.
    0:35:08 When I joined them, they had two theaters, and then they were building, and they were building.
    0:35:17 By the time Howard and Rosemary left, they had pretty much an empire in London and across the regions and a few across the world.
    0:35:20 And then they sold it.
    0:35:25 So it’s still ATG that runs it, but in partnership with a private equity company.
    0:35:28 And they, as you know, they’ve just bought Ju Jamsen.
    0:35:30 Which owns five theaters in New York, I believe.
    0:35:31 That’s right.
    0:35:34 And they want to be a force for good.
    0:35:37 Not that I disbelieve you, but what makes you say a force for good?
    0:35:39 Because, you know, private equity…
    0:35:41 Because I know the people involved.
    0:35:42 And here’s the key thing.
    0:35:51 They know the only way any of their operation will work is to do with what’s on the stages.
    0:35:57 They know that what’s on the stage is the only thing that matters.
    0:36:00 And everything around it is there to support that.
    0:36:07 I think where ATG will, I really hope, make a difference is in the ticketing.
    0:36:09 That sounds really boring, doesn’t it?
    0:36:10 It does.
    0:36:11 Yes, okay.
    0:36:19 But I believe that theater is a little bit behind the times in how we find our audiences,
    0:36:23 how we talk to our audiences, the data modeling, and who our audiences are,
    0:36:28 where they’re coming from, and what they like, and how we capture their imagination.
    0:36:33 And I think ATG are very, very forward-thinking.
    0:36:42 So, Sonia Friedman professes optimism for a more corporate form of theater ownership.
    0:36:44 But not everyone feels that way.
    0:36:51 Theaters are best operated when it’s a mom-and-pop business.
    0:36:53 That, again, is the producer Jeffrey Seller.
    0:36:55 We’re not a real business.
    0:37:03 To expect a theater to have earnings growth every quarter is crazy.
    0:37:06 We go up and we go down.
    0:37:11 We have hits, but in between those hits, we have four flops in a row.
    0:37:20 One cannot guarantee shareholders or banks or whoever those people are consistent earnings.
    0:37:35 The danger is that they’re going to contribute to inflation by needing to take more of that box office pie to share with those money people.
    0:37:42 If you could wake up tomorrow and be magically turned into a landlord, a Broadway theater owner,
    0:37:52 or you could be you, which means having to reinvent the wheel every time to come up with a show that you then rent space from them to try to put on,
    0:37:58 and maybe, maybe make a bonanza the way you did with Rent and the way you did with Hamilton.
    0:38:00 Which do you choose?
    0:38:05 Oh, I choose to be a producer seven days a week, 365 days a year.
    0:38:07 I didn’t come to New York to be a landlord.
    0:38:10 I’m a poor kid from Detroit who likes musicals.
    0:38:11 I don’t like buildings.
    0:38:16 How good a business is the Broadway theater landlord business, however?
    0:38:18 I wouldn’t turn it down.
    0:38:21 It’s a fantastic business.
    0:38:25 It’s heads I win, tails you lose.
    0:38:26 Period.
    0:38:27 End of discussion.
    0:38:30 I’ll say that to their faces, and they know it.
    0:38:33 And no one’s going to say, how dare you say that, Jeffrey?
    0:38:34 They know it.
    0:38:35 I know it.
    0:38:36 We all know it.
    0:38:42 There’s one more factor that makes New York a particularly expensive place to produce theater.
    0:38:44 Labor unions.
    0:38:51 There are 13 separate unions involved in Broadway productions, with three additional contracts that govern how people are paid.
    0:38:57 Every producer I spoke with for this series named unions as a major driver of production inflation.
    0:39:01 Steve, I asked Hal Luftig for his take on the Broadway unions.
    0:39:03 Are you trying to get me killed?
    0:39:07 Steve, I will tell you this.
    0:39:20 I understand that every rule that exists in every union is there because at some point somebody tried to screw them over in that specific area.
    0:39:26 And so next time the contract was negotiated, the union said, okay, we’re going to deal with this.
    0:39:36 What’s a, for instance, what’s a way that a producer might have been either taking advantage or not looking out for the safety of someone that became codified in a union contract?
    0:39:48 For example, stage managers, you know, a producer who was not being very careful or not being very forthright might say, oh, we could do this show with two stage managers.
    0:39:52 And meanwhile, it’s the most complicated set in the world.
    0:40:03 It’s dangerous to not have enough stage managers who can watch the show and make sure everybody is where they’re supposed to, when they’re supposed to be.
    0:40:11 Things like if a trap door opens during the show, a stage manager has to say it’s okay to continue.
    0:40:14 They’re all on headsets, so the audience never hears this.
    0:40:19 To continue because the trap has been closed and the stage is now safe.
    0:40:31 Of all the potential problems faced by a Broadway producer, the most severe by far is that their show will simply be a flop.
    0:40:33 I was very devastated.
    0:40:35 I didn’t understand it.
    0:40:40 Coming up after the break, how to salvage a flop.
    0:40:46 And what do you do when the star of your brand new musical suddenly drops out?
    0:40:49 I’m Stephen Dubner.
    0:40:50 This is Freakonomics Radio.
    0:40:51 We will be right back.
    0:41:09 If you choose to produce the kind of high-stakes, high-dollar theater we’ve been talking about,
    0:41:14 you just have to deal with the vagaries and vicissitudes of the industry.
    0:41:23 A huge hit can come out of nowhere, and what looks to be like a sure thing can cave in on itself and burn $20 million.
    0:41:32 Of course, the vast majority of new shows live somewhere in the middle of these extremes, but it’s the extremes that come to define the industry.
    0:41:40 Consider one highly anticipated show from last season, a revival of The Who’s Tommy with music and lyrics by Pete Townsend.
    0:41:49 The first Broadway production, which was based on The Who’s 1969 rock opera, played for more than two years in the early 1990s.
    0:41:55 This new revival was capitalized at around $15 million, but it lasted only a few months.
    0:42:02 I don’t generally like to raise a half a million dollars and have it go down the tubes.
    0:42:04 That is Richard Winkler.
    0:42:09 He’s one of the lead producers on Three Summers of Lincoln, the new show we’re following in this series.
    0:42:13 He was also a co-producer, one of many, on The Who’s Tommy.
    0:42:19 I thought that the production was an absolutely first-class piece of musical theater.
    0:42:23 I do not understand why it did not work.
    0:42:30 I thought every single baby boomer who saw the show would want to come back and see it again.
    0:42:32 I was very devastated.
    0:42:37 I didn’t understand it, and I don’t like stuff that I don’t understand.
    0:42:39 It’s hard to predict, isn’t it?
    0:42:47 You know, there’s so much alchemy that’s involved in a successful Broadway musical or a successful Broadway play.
    0:42:50 I’m going to see O’Meary this evening.
    0:42:52 You’re going to laugh a lot.
    0:42:54 I understand I’m going to laugh a lot.
    0:42:56 Everybody tells me I’m going to laugh a lot.
    0:43:09 But who in the world would ever think that a show that opened off-Broadway with two unknowns in it would become the big Broadway sensation of the season?
    0:43:27 So what does that say about just the, I don’t want to say risk, but the unpredictability of what you do, what would seem to be the can’t-fail project, like Tommy fails on Broadway, and O’Meary, which comes from nowhere, from nobody, relatively speaking?
    0:43:29 It just proves nobody knows nothing.
    0:43:33 So that was William Goldman talking about Hollywood, but it applies here, too, I guess.
    0:43:37 Oh, it applies here, too, 100%.
    0:43:38 100%.
    0:43:45 O’Meary is an absurdist, slapsticky comedy created by Cole Escola.
    0:43:55 The New York Times called it an unhinged historical fantasia that imagines its protagonist as an alcoholic cabaret singer married to a gay guy.
    0:44:04 The protagonist, by the way, is Mary Todd Lincoln, and her husband, the gay guy in O’Meary, is Abraham Lincoln.
    0:44:17 If Three Summers of Lincoln does make it to Broadway, it’s hard to imagine there could ever be two shows on two stages about the same historical figures that bear such little resemblance to each other.
    0:44:23 O’Meary was a small and simple show to mount, capitalized at just four and a half million dollars.
    0:44:30 It was also the first show of the season to recoup its investment after just four months, and it’s still going strong.
    0:44:34 Like Richard Winkler said, nobody knows nothing.
    0:44:39 In 2007, the producer Hal Luftig opened Legally Blonde on Broadway.
    0:44:44 It was a musical adaptation of the movie starring Reese Witherspoon.
    0:44:52 It ran for a year and a half, but as Luftig told us, it made back only around 60% of its $11 million capitalization.
    0:44:58 Shows don’t work on Broadway for a whole host of reasons.
    0:45:01 It doesn’t have to be that the show is awful.
    0:45:05 You come to Broadway, let’s just say you have 30 other choices.
    0:45:13 What people choose can be a byproduct of where they are at that moment.
    0:45:15 We learned this on Legally Blonde.
    0:45:24 If you are coming into the city and you have two kids, a boy and a girl, invariably the boy said, oh, I don’t want to see that.
    0:45:26 That’s a girl’s story.
    0:45:29 So they choose another show that everyone’s happy with.
    0:45:34 There are people who feel like, I don’t need to see that on Broadway.
    0:45:35 I saw the movie.
    0:45:42 Not really comprehending that a good adaptation has its own vocabulary.
    0:45:44 It’s not just the movie on stage.
    0:45:52 If a movie is associated with a star, as was Legally Blonde with Reese Witherspoon, well, is Reese in it?
    0:45:52 No.
    0:45:54 I’ll go see something else.
    0:45:59 So what do you do with a big musical that loses millions on Broadway?
    0:46:01 You might take it on tour.
    0:46:08 Broadway may be the epicenter of live theater with the most attention and the highest ticket prices,
    0:46:12 but the theatrical touring economy is robust and global.
    0:46:17 After The Who’s Tommy lost its $15 million Broadway investment,
    0:46:21 the producers announced they were raising another $5 million to take it on the road.
    0:46:23 Here’s Richard Winkler again.
    0:46:31 I think it’s going to be very successful, but it also depends on what city you go to
    0:46:33 and how long you’re there.
    0:46:40 The world is not the same as it used to be, and the appetite for what we do is not the same.
    0:46:44 There was an appetite for a tour of Legally Blonde.
    0:46:45 Here is producer Hal Luftig again.
    0:46:51 It went on the road, a several-year U.S. tour, which did recruit and made a profit.
    0:46:56 It went to London, where it did make a small profit.
    0:47:05 And that U.K. company then turned into a U.K. tour that went to Ireland and other countries,
    0:47:07 and that was very profitable, too.
    0:47:11 So how can a middling Broadway show do so much better on the road?
    0:47:13 The houses are bigger.
    0:47:16 There are some tour houses that are over 2,000 seats.
    0:47:19 When you come to New York, you have a choice of, let’s say, 30 shows.
    0:47:25 When you’re in Cleveland, usually you’re the only one or you’re one of two.
    0:47:29 So it’s more focused, and you do pretty well.
    0:47:31 And tours usually cost a whole lot less.
    0:47:37 In addition to costing less, producers usually get much better terms on road tours,
    0:47:42 a bigger cut of ticket sales, for instance, than they do in the Broadway hothouse environment
    0:47:44 where the landlords have so much leverage.
    0:47:48 And a show like Legally Blonde can also generate licensing fees
    0:47:51 from productions much further down the chain.
    0:47:56 That show is done so many times in so many different high schools
    0:47:57 in so many different languages.
    0:48:04 The year before the pandemic, and that’s the last report I recall seeing,
    0:48:08 it was 300 or 400 productions in one year.
    0:48:09 Oh, my goodness.
    0:48:10 Yes.
    0:48:11 It was done everywhere.
    0:48:12 And if you think about it, Stephen,
    0:48:15 the casting is very easy for a school.
    0:48:17 It has enough males.
    0:48:18 It has enough females.
    0:48:21 The songs aren’t terribly difficult to sing.
    0:48:28 And it speaks to high school kids and certainly younger women
    0:48:32 because the message is you don’t ever have to dumb yourself down.
    0:48:39 A lot of shows fail on Broadway financially and critically
    0:48:45 and then do extremely well once they get out into the rest of the country in amateur venues.
    0:48:47 That is Stacey Wolfe.
    0:48:50 She is the author of a book called Beyond Broadway,
    0:48:53 The Pleasure and Promise of Musical Theater Across America.
    0:48:56 And she teaches theater and American studies at Princeton.
    0:49:03 Students like to take my classes because they are musical theater fans or kids.
    0:49:05 And they think, oh, this is going to be fun.
    0:49:10 And then they realize that musicals are among the most important cultural artifact.
    0:49:18 So we treat musicals as seriously as we would treat Shakespeare or a symphony by Beethoven.
    0:49:26 We think about South Pacific in relation to gender relations and race relations and class relations
    0:49:28 in the 1940s.
    0:49:36 We look at Phantom of the Opera in conversation with a backlash against women in the late 1980s.
    0:49:42 Pretty much any musical that you look at, even the ones that seem the silliest and most escapist
    0:49:48 and most not conversing with U.S. culture and society, really are in conversation with the society,
    0:49:49 especially if they were hits.
    0:49:50 They have to be.
    0:49:57 For many, many, many, many, many people, not all, but many, to them, Broadway and the theater are one and the same.
    0:50:00 To many others, they know many different parts of the ecosystem.
    0:50:07 But in terms of public perception and in terms of, you know, size of industry and number of participants and so on,
    0:50:08 how do you see it?
    0:50:11 Broadway is to the whole ecosystem.
    0:50:12 Tiny.
    0:50:17 Tiny in terms of number and outsized in terms of symbolism.
    0:50:22 Just symbolism and not, let’s say, profits, since we’re talking about an industry?
    0:50:24 Not in terms of profits.
    0:50:26 A lot of great things happen on Broadway.
    0:50:29 Broadway is the place where it begins.
    0:50:31 It’s symbolically important.
    0:50:32 It creates the canon.
    0:50:38 It creates the version by which all other versions are compared.
    0:50:46 But the real lifeblood of the form, why musical theater is thriving and continues to thrive,
    0:50:53 in spite of all the odds against it, in that it’s face-to-face, it’s slow, it’s hands-on,
    0:50:59 it requires incredible collaboration, only a few people can see it at a time.
    0:51:04 All of those things that happen in high schools, community theaters, summer camps,
    0:51:06 that is really the lifeblood of the form.
    0:51:13 Persuade me that when you call the non-Broadway or even the non-commercial side of theater the
    0:51:17 lifeblood, that that’s not an emotional description versus an empirical description.
    0:51:25 For example, in 2017, 2018, the Educational Theater Association, which does a survey every
    0:51:33 year, found more than 37,000 high school productions took place that year, with more than 46 million
    0:51:34 people in the audience.
    0:51:42 That compares to around 12 million people who see a Broadway show in a given year.
    0:51:48 So, yes, technically, the audience for high school musicals is at least three times bigger
    0:51:49 than the Broadway audience.
    0:51:54 But without Broadway, high schools wouldn’t necessarily have shows to produce.
    0:52:03 Once the show has the as-seen-on-Broadway imprimatur, it then has a certain kind of stamp of approval
    0:52:07 that makes it legible to anyone.
    0:52:12 Another example of this, not of a show that didn’t succeed, but a show that was never intended
    0:52:15 to succeed, was Newsies, Disney’s Newsies.
    0:52:18 What do you mean it was never intended to succeed?
    0:52:24 Newsies from the beginning was answering the cry of fans who had seen the movie, who really
    0:52:27 wanted a stage musical of the movie.
    0:52:33 So they created Newsies to have just a super brief run on Broadway, and it was meant to go
    0:52:36 out and tour and then become an amateur production.
    0:52:42 It did very well on Broadway, and because it was fairly cheap to run, because it had a set that
    0:52:45 was always meant to tour.
    0:52:47 It made back its money very quickly.
    0:52:50 Once it went out on the road, it did well.
    0:52:55 And once it went to schools, it was and continues to be very, very popular.
    0:52:57 What is it about that show that works in schools?
    0:53:08 It has a very light romance between a feisty girl and a delightful boy that has a huge chorus that’s
    0:53:09 endlessly expandable.
    0:53:13 And even though they’re news boys, they can also be played by girls.
    0:53:15 It doesn’t have any bad words.
    0:53:22 The politics are kind of, I won’t even say Marxism light, but kind of labor movement light.
    0:53:25 So it has a good uplifting message.
    0:53:28 There’s nothing to offend anyone in Newsies.
    0:53:32 And also it can allow a completely multiracial cast.
    0:53:34 It has a character with a disability.
    0:53:38 So it has a lot of great stuff going on for a school.
    0:53:39 And it’s very entertaining.
    0:53:42 The music is super catchy, easy to sing.
    0:53:46 It can have a lot of dance or doesn’t have to have a lot of dance, depending on what you
    0:53:47 have in your school.
    0:53:53 Because for high schools, the teacher or the director is always having to calculate who they
    0:53:55 have in their population.
    0:53:58 So it’s never an arbitrary choice for them.
    0:54:02 It’s a very calculated decision about what show can they do?
    0:54:03 Do they have enough parts for girls?
    0:54:05 Can their kids sing the show?
    0:54:06 Do they have musicians?
    0:54:09 Okay, so what does it cost?
    0:54:15 If I’m a high school and I want to put on Newsies or Three Summers of Lincoln, let’s say three
    0:54:19 years from now, what’s it going to cost and how does that licensing work?
    0:54:25 Typically, a full-length show costs somewhere around $3,000.
    0:54:32 If you were going to do a Broadway junior show, a 60-minute show, that would run you closer
    0:54:35 to $700 for the show.
    0:54:42 So if I’m the originator of a show that played on Broadway, it succeeded, it failed, it was
    0:54:47 somewhere in the middle, whatever, I hear you say some high school wants to license it for
    0:54:50 somewhere between $700 and $3,000.
    0:54:56 How many productions might there be in a given year and how much money might that represent?
    0:55:07 There can be thousands of productions per year, and it can be some millions of dollars per
    0:55:07 year.
    0:55:10 Let me just tell you a little bit more about Three Summers of Lincoln.
    0:55:11 So it’s a musical.
    0:55:13 It’s got comic moments.
    0:55:14 It’s got serious moments.
    0:55:15 It’s got some gospel.
    0:55:17 It’s got some kind of Broadway music.
    0:55:18 It’s got some field music.
    0:55:21 It’s got some jazzy-ish, bluesy stuff.
    0:55:27 It’s primarily about the relationship between Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and
    0:55:33 really how Douglass radicalized Lincoln, turned him into an abolitionist, and how Lincoln, to
    0:55:37 his surprise, won re-election when he thought he was going to lose.
    0:55:39 What does that sound like to you as a high school musical?
    0:55:41 What do you think the prospects are?
    0:55:43 Honestly, it sounds challenging.
    0:55:45 Because why?
    0:55:55 Because any musical that deals with something as overtly political as race relations could
    0:55:58 have a hard time in our country at this moment.
    0:56:04 There probably will be certain segments of the country that would be absolutely thrilled to
    0:56:05 do a show like that.
    0:56:10 It also sounds to me there’s a great friendship in the center of this, which is always something
    0:56:12 welcome for high school shows.
    0:56:20 How have issues around free speech and hate speech and identity politics, how has all that
    0:56:25 affected which shows get chosen to be produced in high schools?
    0:56:29 I can’t overstate how much those issues have affected what’s produced.
    0:56:35 It’s so difficult for a high school teacher and students to get their show passed.
    0:56:43 A school board, a principal, and a community that finds problems with every single issue.
    0:56:55 Okay, so if Three Summers of Lincoln isn’t going to make its money back on high school
    0:57:00 productions, it better hope it succeeds on Broadway, or at least hope it makes it there.
    0:57:06 When we last heard about Lincoln in part one of this series, they had just produced a successful
    0:57:08 workshop performance in New York.
    0:57:15 After that would come another round of revisions and then a world premiere at the non-profit
    0:57:21 La Jolla Playhouse in early 2025 with the hope of moving to Broadway sometime in 2026.
    0:57:27 But if you remember, the actor playing Lincoln, Brian Stokes Mitchell, announced that he was
    0:57:31 dropping out of the production the day before tickets went on sale at La Jolla.
    0:57:40 That is Debbie Buchholz, managing director of the La Jolla Playhouse.
    0:57:43 I’d called her up after I learned that Stokes was leaving the show.
    0:57:50 I’d heard all sorts of rumors about what his quitting meant, but the official line was simply
    0:57:54 that he withdrew for personal reasons and that the show must, you know, go on.
    0:58:00 I asked Buchholz if anyone involved had thought about postponing the La Jolla premiere.
    0:58:01 I was never on the table.
    0:58:07 The thing about a musical is, particularly in a musical where you have the seniority and
    0:58:13 caliber of the creative team that’s on this, part of the magic game of Tetris is lining up
    0:58:17 some really, really challenging schedules.
    0:58:21 And these schedules are lined up.
    0:58:27 I can recognize that for your theater, a postponement would probably be a big drag, right?
    0:58:30 You don’t have something that could be slotted in right there, I assume?
    0:58:30 That’s right.
    0:58:31 That’s correct.
    0:58:37 On the other hand, if I think about the commercial producers, they are playing the long game.
    0:58:44 And so if they’re hoping to get to Broadway in whatever, a year, 18 months, they might say,
    0:58:51 well, you know, this was a big step back and we need to reassess and or wait for Stokes and
    0:58:55 or find someone that we won’t be able to find as quickly as this.
    0:58:59 So what if they came to you and said, hey, you know what, Debbie, we love La Jolla Playhouse,
    0:59:03 we love you, but we’re pulling out of this production.
    0:59:04 What would happen then?
    0:59:06 Look, there’s all sorts of different things that can happen then.
    0:59:07 It just doesn’t happen.
    0:59:13 Frankly, the agreement between all of us wasn’t contingent on any one particular person in that
    0:59:13 role.
    0:59:18 This piece would be incredibly challenged if it tried to put itself off.
    0:59:23 It wouldn’t be putting it off for 12 or 18 months because they would need to find another
    0:59:25 developmental home for it as well.
    0:59:29 Another regional theater that had a slot and it would be putting it off for a very long time.
    0:59:33 Do you have a dream replacement for Lincoln?
    0:59:35 No, I don’t.
    0:59:37 Fantasy casting.
    0:59:40 No, I’m excited to see whoever comes in to do it.
    0:59:48 Coming up next time in the third and final part of our series, we will meet the new Lincoln.
    0:59:53 I felt like if I still want to be an actor, I have to do this.
    0:59:59 We’ll hear from Mary Todd Lincoln, not the alcoholic cabaret singer from O’Mary, but
    1:00:03 the Mary from Three Summers of Lincoln, about losing her original Abraham.
    1:00:05 I was concerned.
    1:00:06 I was concerned.
    1:00:10 And we’ll ask the commercial producers how they’re feeling.
    1:00:15 I believe that after La Jolla, people will be throwing money at the project.
    1:00:16 That’s next time.
    1:00:17 Until then, take care of yourself.
    1:00:20 And if you can, someone else too.
    1:00:24 Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio.
    1:00:28 You can find our entire archive on any podcast app.
    1:00:32 Also at Freakonomics.com, where we publish transcripts and show notes.
    1:00:35 This episode was produced by Alina Kullman.
    1:00:38 It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger with help from Jeremy Johnston.
    1:00:43 The Freakonomics Radio network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abouaji, Eleanor Osborne,
    1:00:49 Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippin, John Schnars, Morgan Levy, Neil Carruth,
    1:00:51 Sarah Lilly, Teo Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski.
    1:00:54 Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers.
    1:00:56 And our composer is Luis Guerra.
    1:00:58 As always, thanks for listening.
    1:01:06 If you’re the producer of a show, you’re like a parent.
    1:01:10 And that’s like asking you, do you ever stop working with your children?
    1:01:11 I don’t think so.
    1:01:12 They could be 30 years old.
    1:01:13 You’re still going to be working.
    1:01:20 The Freakonomics Radio Network.
    1:01:22 The hidden side of everything.
    1:01:26 Stitcher.

    A hit like Hamilton can come from nowhere while a sure bet can lose $20 million in a flash. We speak with some of the biggest producers in the game — Sonia Friedman, Jeffrey Seller, Hal Luftig — and learn that there is only one guarantee: the theater owners always win. (Part two of a three-part series.)

     

    • SOURCES:
      • Debby Buchholz, managing director of La Jolla Playhouse.
      • Sonia Friedman, Broadway producer.
      • Rocco Landesman, Broadway producer, former owner of Jujamcyn Theaters, former chairman of the National Endowment for the Arts.
      • Hal Luftig, Broadway producer.
      • Luis Miranda Jr., political strategist, founding president of the Hispanic Federation, the Northern Manhattan Arts Alliance, Viva Broadway, and The Public Theater.
      • Michael Rushton, professor of arts administration at Indiana University.
      • Jeffrey Seller, Broadway producer.
      • Richard Winkler, Broadway producer.
      • Stacy Wolf, professor of theater at Princeton University.

     

     

  • Jean Chatzky: How to Unlock Wealth and Maximize Your Earnings | Finance | YAPClassic

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 Today’s episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb and Microsoft Teams.
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    0:00:19 your co-founders, interns, and volunteers,
    0:00:22 then you need to check out Microsoft Teams Free.
    0:00:27 Try Microsoft Teams Free today at aka.ms slash profiting.
    0:00:31 As always, you can find all of our incredible deals in the show notes
    0:00:34 or at youngandprofiting.com slash deals.
    0:00:38 Hey, Yap Gang, are you ready to build your personal brand online,
    0:00:42 attract a large and loyal audience through transformative content,
    0:00:45 and turn your long-running passion into profit?
    0:00:49 If that sounds like you, then don’t miss my brand new webinar,
    0:00:53 Build Your Personal Brand in the Creator Economy, happening May 7th.
    0:00:57 In this special live training, I’ll walk you through everything you need to know,
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    0:01:20 If you’re serious about building your personal brand as a creator, this is where you start.
    0:01:24 Sign up now at youngandprofiting.co slash maywebinar.
    0:01:29 That’s youngandprofiting.co slash maywebinar to join this special training.
    0:01:35 Also, as a bonus for my Yap listeners, Opus has agreed to give one month for free
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    0:01:44 Sign up now at youngandprofiting.co slash maywebinar and claim your prize.
    0:01:47 You can also find the link in the show notes.
    0:02:03 Young and Profiters, we are on the brink of a major wealth shift.
    0:02:08 One that’s putting financial power in the hands of women over the coming decades.
    0:02:14 And no matter if you’re a man or a woman, this is super important because you can create
    0:02:18 business ideas to cater with this women who have more wealth.
    0:02:23 Yet, despite the shift of women having more money, they’re still less likely to invest than
    0:02:27 men and often feel less confident about doing so.
    0:02:30 My guest in this Yap Classic episode is Jean Chaskey.
    0:02:34 She believes the best way to build confidence is simple.
    0:02:35 Start investing.
    0:02:41 Jean is an award-winning journalist, best-selling author, and host of the podcast, Her Money.
    0:02:45 She also served as the longtime financial editor of the Today Show.
    0:02:50 Jean has a talent for making complex financial topics easy to understand.
    0:02:55 And in this episode, she shared practical strategies for budgeting, saving, and investing.
    0:02:58 All right, Yap fam, let’s get right into it.
    0:03:03 Jean, welcome to Young and Profiting Podcast.
    0:03:05 Thanks, Hala.
    0:03:06 Thanks so much for having me.
    0:03:08 I’m so excited for this conversation.
    0:03:11 I think it’s going to be so insightful for my audience.
    0:03:12 I really love your work.
    0:03:16 You didn’t really start off in finance, which I thought was interesting.
    0:03:22 And I’d love to get some backstory from you in terms of your journalism background.
    0:03:23 You were an English major.
    0:03:26 How did you end up first getting interested in finances?
    0:03:34 I got interested, quite honestly, because my own financial life was a bit of a mess.
    0:03:42 And simultaneously, the journalism job that I got was business adjacent.
    0:03:50 I started my career as an editorial assistant at a magazine that no longer exists called Working
    0:03:59 Woman and got to report some stories on things like business and careers and management trends
    0:04:00 and investing.
    0:04:09 And I was interested enough in them to try to get a job in personal finance, business journalism
    0:04:17 when I left that job, which turned out to be really, really difficult because all the big business
    0:04:22 magazines on the planet, I applied to all of them, thought Working Woman was a joke.
    0:04:32 And finally, I got a little bit of advice that what I needed was an MBA, but I didn’t have
    0:04:35 really any interest in going back to school at that point.
    0:04:37 So instead, I got a job on Wall Street.
    0:04:40 I worked in equity research for a couple of years.
    0:04:43 I learned investing inside and out.
    0:04:49 And when I came back out, I was able to reenter journalism, join Forbes from there to smart money.
    0:04:52 And from there, I ended up on the Today Show for 25 years.
    0:04:53 Amazing.
    0:05:00 So when I looked at your career journey, it reminded me a lot of my own in terms that you skill
    0:05:01 stacked to become an entrepreneur.
    0:05:07 So I call this skill stack entrepreneurship, where basically you worked for other people
    0:05:10 and you gained all these skills over the years.
    0:05:13 And then you became an entrepreneur, basically putting these skills together.
    0:05:19 And then you came out with her money and nobody could do her money better than you because
    0:05:23 you had all the experiences to put together this unique offering, to put together this
    0:05:25 awesome website, this awesome podcast.
    0:05:31 And you had all the background and the skills, the writing, the journalism, the broadcasting,
    0:05:34 the knowledge of that actual topic.
    0:05:38 It’s a lot like what I did with Yap Media and my podcast network and my social agency.
    0:05:43 So I’d love for you to just talk to us about that for all these young people listening.
    0:05:47 Talk about the skills that you acquired over the years and then how you sort of use that in
    0:05:48 your entrepreneurship journey.
    0:05:53 I was one of the original side giggers, right?
    0:05:57 I think I had a side hustle before it was called a side hustle.
    0:06:04 Pretty much always because journalists make very little money, or at least when you’re starting
    0:06:06 out as a journalist, you make very little money.
    0:06:09 So originally my side hustle was teaching SATs.
    0:06:16 But as I started to become a stronger writer and a stronger content creator, I was able to
    0:06:19 hustle in my own industry.
    0:06:27 So just by doing that, I picked up a lot of the adjacent skills that I then needed to launch
    0:06:28 this business.
    0:06:34 Once I was on the Today Show in particular, a lot of doors started to open.
    0:06:37 These were the days where everybody was watching the Today Show.
    0:06:47 And so I got a lot of offers to go out and speak, to write books, to consult for different companies
    0:06:53 in the employee benefits departments where they were trying to improve the financial health
    0:06:54 of their employees.
    0:07:04 And I didn’t become an entrepreneur until, a full-scale entrepreneur, until 20 years down
    0:07:10 the road when I left my last magazine job.
    0:07:14 I actually got fired from my last magazine job because I’d gotten a little too expensive
    0:07:15 for their payroll.
    0:07:20 And I looked at all of the other things that I was doing.
    0:07:26 I was doing radio for Oprah over here, and I was doing speaking here, and I was on my 10th
    0:07:30 book over here, and I had three other clients over here.
    0:07:33 And I thought, why am I getting another job?
    0:07:35 I have five other jobs.
    0:07:38 I just need to put them together.
    0:07:43 Her money as a company came along after her money as a podcast.
    0:07:47 I was doing some work with Fidelity Investments.
    0:07:50 They were our original launch sponsor.
    0:07:54 The fabulous team there basically said, what else can we do together?
    0:07:56 And I was like, how about a podcast?
    0:08:06 So we launched, and very quickly it became apparent to me that we were growing a community of like-minded
    0:08:08 women who wanted to learn about money.
    0:08:12 And Her Money, the company, launched around that.
    0:08:13 Amazing.
    0:08:15 Well, you’ve been doing such a great job.
    0:08:17 I know that your podcast is super popular.
    0:08:19 Your blog is very well known.
    0:08:21 I’ve heard about Her Money for many years now.
    0:08:26 You also have so many books, and you’ve just become such an accomplished author.
    0:08:29 And a majority of your content is actually geared towards women.
    0:08:34 So I want to talk to that for a minute, because I know that all the advice you give is applicable
    0:08:36 to all genders, right?
    0:08:38 Doesn’t necessarily need to be just for women.
    0:08:44 But we do need to understand why women have traditionally had an uphill battle when it has
    0:08:46 come to their finances.
    0:08:49 Can you give us some insight in terms of the gender wage gap?
    0:08:53 And I think a lot of people have the assumption that that’s not really a thing anymore.
    0:08:57 So can you talk to us about if it is a thing in 2024?
    0:08:59 Oh, it’s a thing.
    0:09:01 It has budged, which is good.
    0:09:08 Over the last like year and a half, it’s moved up a smidge so that at this point, women earn
    0:09:13 83 and a half cents to every dollar that a white man earns.
    0:09:20 But the American Association of University Women say, we are going to be halfway through the next
    0:09:24 century before this gap actually closes.
    0:09:27 That’s how slowly it’s moving.
    0:09:29 And it’s worse for women of color.
    0:09:37 And the problem with the gender wage gap is that when you combine it with all of the other
    0:09:48 factors that women deal with in terms of earning money and growing money for retirement, they
    0:09:49 put us behind.
    0:09:53 Women are the ones to take breaks from work, to care for kids and care for older parents.
    0:10:02 We saw that in the pandemic in spades, but it’s been true all along because we take those
    0:10:03 breaks.
    0:10:07 We have less money growing in those retirement accounts.
    0:10:10 We earn fewer social security credits.
    0:10:12 We get to the end of the line.
    0:10:16 We’ve got a smaller nest egg and then we have to make the money last longer because we go and
    0:10:18 we outlive men by six, seven years.
    0:10:20 So it’s an uphill battle.
    0:10:26 But you’re right in terms of the advice being gender neutral.
    0:10:34 There are not a ton of differences in the advice that somebody would give to a man versus a woman.
    0:10:41 Jane Bryant Quinn, who is one of my mentors and a leading personal finance journalist, just a
    0:10:42 trailblazer.
    0:10:45 She likes to say that stocks aren’t pink or blue.
    0:10:48 Money’s not pink or blue.
    0:10:49 It’s green, right?
    0:10:53 And she’s a hundred percent right about that.
    0:11:03 The problem is that women sometimes don’t feel as safe as we need to feel to ask the questions
    0:11:11 that we need answered in order to get us to take the steps to start investing, to put our
    0:11:14 money to work, to ask for that raise.
    0:11:19 And what I’ve found and the reason that I launched her money was that when I was in a
    0:11:28 room full of all women, given some sort of a talk, and I would get to the Q&A section, the hands would just fly up in the air.
    0:11:32 And when I was in a mixed group, the response was a lot more muted.
    0:11:36 Women really held back and didn’t want to share as much.
    0:11:40 And so what I set out to create was a safe space.
    0:11:51 But am I going to tell women that they should buy NVIDIA as we did for our investing club two years ago and tell men that they should not?
    0:11:53 No, absolutely not.
    0:11:54 Such good advice.
    0:11:57 And by the way, that stock has done really well because I have it too.
    0:11:58 Yeah.
    0:12:01 So a lot of my listeners are business owners.
    0:12:03 A lot of them are people of power.
    0:12:04 We have employees.
    0:12:06 We have our own small businesses.
    0:12:10 What is our responsibility when it comes to the gender wage gap?
    0:12:14 I think our responsibility is to level it.
    0:12:34 And it has to come from the employers because if employers don’t take a look at our payrolls, don’t take a look at how we are treating our employees, irrespective of gender, irrespective of race, these gaps are never going to close.
    0:12:43 And so we have to get really honest about who’s doing what work and how much are they being compensated for it.
    0:12:46 And it’s not a matter of need.
    0:12:49 It’s a matter of the work that we need them to do.
    0:12:55 But it’s not a matter of our perception of the money that they need to take home, which is how it used to work.
    0:13:04 You know, years back, you would hear conversations where a boss would tell a female employee, well, of course, John is going to get paid more than you do.
    0:13:09 He’s the breadwinner and he’s got multiple mouths to feed at home.
    0:13:14 We’re now in an era where more women are the breadwinners.
    0:13:32 And if you look ahead, if you look out to 2030 and into the 2030s, women are actually expected to control the lion’s share of the wealth and the spending in this country and across the world.
    0:13:43 And it’s because of educational trends that are leading women to have more qualifications than men in many, many instances.
    0:13:56 And it’s also because of the way that the transfer of wealth, the $41 trillion transfer of wealth that is going on as we speak, is playing out.
    0:13:58 Women are inheriting twice.
    0:14:10 And not because our parents prefer us to our brothers, but we’re inheriting twice because if we have brothers, chances are we split the family pie with them.
    0:14:13 But then when our husbands die, we inherit that money as well.
    0:14:15 That’s so good.
    0:14:17 And this is really, really fascinating to me.
    0:14:25 I really want to spend a lot of time here on these social and economical changes that are going on.
    0:14:31 So I got some incredible stats from your work and I’m going to rattle some off and ask some questions about them.
    0:14:35 And I’d love for you to really just give us as much insight, as much color as you have about them.
    0:14:42 So the first one is for every 100 men who graduated from college last year, 132 women graduated.
    0:14:50 Can you talk about how this really snowballs into various social demographic economic changes?
    0:14:51 Absolutely.
    0:15:07 If you look at the types of jobs that college grads hold and the types of jobs that you need to have a college degree in order to get, they tend to be the higher paying jobs.
    0:15:13 We are seeing some movement in trades, in apprenticeships, in vocational programs.
    0:15:19 I grew up in Wheeling, West Virginia in a high school that had a big welding department in the basement.
    0:15:22 And I believe that we need to see more of these opportunities.
    0:15:30 But there’s no question that a college degree helps you land a better salary.
    0:15:41 And when you look at the lifetime earnings of a person with a college degree versus one who doesn’t have one, it’s hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not more.
    0:16:00 And the way that that then drives change in society is that you have these families where you tend to have not just one, but two college educated people because college educated people often meet in college.
    0:16:13 And those two income college educated households are going to be making significantly more money in many cases than those who are not college educated.
    0:16:22 And what we wind up with is just a bigger income disparity in this country than we have right now.
    0:16:25 And as you know, Hala, it’s already problematic.
    0:16:30 So we look at it and we see these things starting to march in that direction.
    0:16:45 The other problem, though, and I hear of this from my daughter and from people younger than her, is that if you are on a college campus and you’re heterosexual and you want to date, it’s gotten an awful lot harder.
    0:16:51 Hmm, I definitely want to talk about that, but let’s hold that thought for a second.
    0:16:58 Let’s talk about how by 2028, women will control 75% of discretionary spending around the world.
    0:17:02 By 2030, 66% of America’s wealth will be with women.
    0:17:10 You alluded to this a bit, but what are some of the factors of why women are going to have so much more money in the future years?
    0:17:16 So it’s education and it is the transfer of wealth.
    0:17:19 Those are the two big factors that are playing into this.
    0:17:33 But when you talk about the fact that women are going to have the money, what people don’t do is sort of follow the breadcrumbs and think about how that’s going to change everything, right?
    0:17:40 When you follow the breadcrumbs, what you see is that the fact that women are making these purchasing decisions changes things.
    0:17:49 If you look at cars, it’s going to change the way that cars are designed because they’re going to be designed with women buyers more in mind.
    0:17:56 You’ll have a better place to park that bag that you carry around on your shoulder all the time.
    0:18:06 The seat will be adjustable in a different way so that you’ll be able to see over the front of the hood if you’re height-challenged in the way that I am.
    0:18:09 It’ll change the design of homes.
    0:18:13 Single women buy many more homes than single men.
    0:18:16 They’ve become a very important segment of homebuyers.
    0:18:23 And we are seeing homes designed with the things that women want in mind.
    0:18:40 So it’s not just a matter of the fact that financial advisors are a little bit up in arms about this because they have seen studies that show that when the male spouse in a family dies,
    0:18:49 70-ish percent of women are likely to leave the advisor and find somebody of their own choosing, those trends are underway as well.
    0:18:53 But it’s going to change the look and feel and design of a lot of products.
    0:18:55 Oh my gosh, so interesting.
    0:18:56 You know what you just reminded me of?
    0:19:03 So I took my mom to Cancun on vacation and I got us first-class tickets.
    0:19:06 We only brought checked bags.
    0:19:10 And I remember me and her trying to put our bags up on the airplane.
    0:19:11 We’re both petite.
    0:19:12 We had to help each other.
    0:19:16 And actually, my mom accidentally slipped and the bag fell.
    0:19:18 And it was so embarrassing.
    0:19:20 And it kind of caused a commotion.
    0:19:25 And in my head, I was thinking, I just paid over $2,000 for these tickets.
    0:19:33 And I was expected as a five-foot-one girl to put up a bag with my 70-year-old mother by ourselves.
    0:19:35 And I was thinking, how ridiculous is this?
    0:19:37 Who are these airplanes designed for?
    0:19:40 It’s obviously not considering petite women.
    0:19:43 Yeah, it’s definitely not.
    0:19:49 And maybe if they start to see that more women are buying their own business-class seats,
    0:19:51 that’ll be something that will change.
    0:19:58 Or the folks who make the away bag that we all seem to carry will come up with some sort of a
    0:20:02 hoister to help us get it up in that luggage compartment.
    0:20:03 Because I have the same trouble that you do.
    0:20:06 It’s the worst part about flying for me.
    0:20:07 It is.
    0:20:13 Okay, so 38% of women are their family’s biggest earner or primary breadwinner.
    0:20:17 How does that impact society and contribute to the fact that 50% of women are single right now?
    0:20:23 Look, there’s a lot of research on when a woman is the primary breadwinner
    0:20:28 and whether or not it causes strife in relationships.
    0:20:37 Generally, if when a man and a woman form their relationship, the woman is already the higher
    0:20:41 earner, then that status quo doesn’t rock the boat too much.
    0:20:47 It’s when there’s a shift in the dynamic over the course of the relationship that impacts
    0:20:54 the balance of power in the relationship in other ways that things go a little bit sideways.
    0:20:59 And that’s where we start to see breakdown in communication.
    0:21:06 That’s where we start to see women compensating for the fact that they make more money.
    0:21:09 I mean, I’m sure that you have seen this research, Khaled.
    0:21:11 It’s so troubling.
    0:21:17 When women make more money, we don’t see that they offload more of the responsibilities at home.
    0:21:22 We see that they take on more of the responsibilities at home.
    0:21:32 And the logic behind that is that we feel somehow bad about that and that we have to make nice
    0:21:34 to our spouse’s ego.
    0:21:39 So of course, we’re going to make dinner and do the grocery shopping and take care of the
    0:21:40 kids.
    0:21:42 And that’s where burnout comes from.
    0:21:44 And that’s where anger comes from.
    0:21:46 And in some cases, that’s where divorce comes from.
    0:21:50 Let’s hold that thought and take a quick break with our sponsors.
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    0:22:44 I don’t have to waste my time sifting through candidates who aren’t a good match for my company.
    0:22:49 When I first started this podcast, I was knee-deep in resumes, juggling interviews, trying to find
    0:22:51 folks who actually fit what I needed.
    0:22:52 It was so slow.
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    0:24:59 This episode of Young and Profiting Podcast is brought to you by Mercury, the modern business
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    0:26:54 I want to talk to you about the availability of suitable partners for successful women.
    0:26:57 You’re like kind of alluding to this when you were talking about your daughter.
    0:26:59 And I’m going to get a little bit personal here.
    0:27:03 So I’m in my mid-30s and I have no kids.
    0:27:03 I’m not married.
    0:27:06 I’m literally never single.
    0:27:11 I can get a boyfriend like this, but I haven’t really found the one.
    0:27:13 And I kind of know the reason why.
    0:27:18 I feel like it’s because a lot of guys that I date, they seem like they’re cool with a
    0:27:20 successful woman and they’re successful too.
    0:27:22 They’re all executives or whatever they are.
    0:27:27 But I’m growing really fast and they end up getting insecure.
    0:27:31 Like you’re going to outgrow me is what they think, right?
    0:27:33 You’re going to outgrow me.
    0:27:36 And so we end up breaking up and I haven’t found the right partner.
    0:27:40 Now, there’s a couple of things that have recently opened my eyes.
    0:27:42 Number one is Marshall Goldsmith.
    0:27:43 I have a social media agency.
    0:27:46 He’s one of my longtime LinkedIn clients.
    0:27:47 He’s a leadership coach.
    0:27:50 He is always trying to get me married.
    0:27:53 And he’s always telling me, Kala, this happened to my daughters.
    0:27:55 You have to marry down.
    0:27:57 You can’t be worried about marrying up.
    0:27:58 You’ve got to marry down.
    0:27:59 You’ll find a great guy.
    0:28:03 He doesn’t have to be richer than you or like you’ve just got to marry down.
    0:28:07 And for a while, I was trying to find somebody that was equal that I could grow with.
    0:28:13 But like the other thing that really opened my eyes is that I started this podcast network and I’ve
    0:28:22 got a lot of women who like I feel like I’m going to be like in a few years, like Jenna Kutcher, Amy Porterfield, Kelly Roach was my social client.
    0:28:30 And they all have either retired their husbands, they have house dads basically, or their husband works with them or for them.
    0:28:33 And that made me realize because their families are so happy.
    0:28:36 And I was like, well, maybe I’m just like looking at this in the wrong way.
    0:28:43 Maybe I should feel like almost not like a man, but that I just need to find a great partner.
    0:28:47 They don’t need to have the career that I want them to have.
    0:28:48 It’s more about the person, right?
    0:28:50 So I just love your thoughts on this.
    0:28:55 I am married for the second time and I agree with that.
    0:29:03 First of all, I think, and no disrespect to Marshall, but when he says you have to marry down, I think that that’s the wrong word.
    0:29:07 I think that you have to marry and date different.
    0:29:17 Yeah, you need a partner who is going to be really supportive of your efforts and your career.
    0:29:21 Because let’s just be honest about this.
    0:29:23 And I felt the same way when I first had kids.
    0:29:27 My former father-in-law said, well, when are you stopping working?
    0:29:32 Because all of his other daughters and daughters-in-law had stopped working.
    0:29:33 And I said, yeah, not me.
    0:29:35 I’m not doing that.
    0:29:41 We will figure out how these kids will have care during the day.
    0:29:46 And the way that we did it was that my ex-husband didn’t travel for work.
    0:29:47 And I did.
    0:29:53 And that balanced us out for a very, very long time.
    0:30:03 If you are in a relationship where the egos are clashing or where your partner can’t support your success or doesn’t want to support your success,
    0:30:04 then it’s not going to work.
    0:30:06 It’s just going to fail.
    0:30:11 Have you ever seen the movie Beautiful Girls?
    0:30:12 No.
    0:30:12 Okay.
    0:30:14 You have to watch the movie Beautiful Girls.
    0:30:16 It’s old.
    0:30:17 20 years, probably.
    0:30:24 Natalie Portman and Annabeth Gish and Timothy Hutton and Matt Dillon.
    0:30:25 A whole bunch of people.
    0:30:32 But the part of that movie that sticks with me is there’s a very successful woman in it.
    0:30:34 She’s dating Timothy Hutton.
    0:30:41 And he is a piano player in a bar who also happens to be an accountant.
    0:30:49 And he’s been putting a whole lot of pressure on himself to get a real accounting job so that he can keep up with her.
    0:30:53 And finally, she just said, musicians are sexy.
    0:30:55 Accountants are not sexy.
    0:30:56 Musicians are sexy.
    0:31:08 Giving him the permission to continue to do this thing that he enjoyed and continue to bring that sexy energy to their relationship, which is what she needed from him.
    0:31:13 And so that’s the balance, I think, that you’re looking for.
    0:31:21 There’s a lot of lean-in Sheryl Sandberg’s book that people have dismissed over the past number of years.
    0:31:28 I think the thing that really holds up from that book is the importance that she put on selecting your partner.
    0:31:41 She picked a guy that she knew was going to let her be her and let her do the work that she wanted to do and help them create a life where that was going to be possible.
    0:31:42 And that’s what you need.
    0:31:43 Yeah.
    0:31:53 More generally, for everybody tuning in, I just feel like it’s just harder to find traditional roles and partners anymore for men and for women.
    0:31:57 And I just would love to understand even more advice from you for the young people tuning in.
    0:32:07 How can men feel like men and women feel like women in their relationships when everything is sort of getting switched around in terms of who’s the breadwinner?
    0:32:09 I just feel like it’s so difficult for us to date.
    0:32:16 I think the way that you do it is by knowing yourself and knowing your partner and closing ranks.
    0:32:27 This is your business and it’s your partner’s business and it’s not your mother’s business or your mother-in-law’s business or your friend’s business or Instagram’s business, right?
    0:32:30 It is nobody’s business but yours.
    0:32:35 And if it’s working for the two of you, then who the hell cares, right?
    0:32:37 What anybody else has to say.
    0:32:47 You just have to respect the boundaries that you’ve created with the two of you and what that allows you to do.
    0:32:49 Look, I’m the breadwinner in my marriage.
    0:32:51 I have been for many years.
    0:32:54 My husband is largely retired.
    0:32:56 He works about 15 hours a week these days.
    0:32:58 He’s older than I am.
    0:33:02 And he had an incredibly successful career.
    0:33:08 But the fact that I out-earned him, he could care less.
    0:33:13 He knows the value that he brings to our marriage.
    0:33:17 I certainly know the value that he brings to our marriage.
    0:33:22 And it’s nobody else’s business, really, despite the fact that I’m talking about it on your podcast.
    0:33:24 I love it.
    0:33:26 Thanks, Jean, for all of that.
    0:33:26 Okay.
    0:33:28 So women are getting richer.
    0:33:35 Can you talk to us about how women are going to treat this newfound wealth compared to how men traditionally have treated wealth?
    0:33:39 Men have traditionally invested it.
    0:33:43 And women traditionally have been slow to the party.
    0:33:49 If you, again, and you pulled out a whole bunch of statistics, I’m grateful for that.
    0:33:54 But one of my favorites is that women keep about 70% of our assets in cash.
    0:33:56 Men keep about 60%.
    0:34:09 It’s a really big and important difference because investing our money is the only way that we are going to make sure that it is working as hard as we are working ourselves.
    0:34:22 And so what we’re starting to see is women move into the ranks of being investors, wanting to be investors, wanting to learn about investors.
    0:34:33 Whether you’ve got all your money in a 401k where you put it in a target date fund and you let that fund do its thing or you’re buying individual stocks, we want to learn.
    0:34:35 I was telling you about my investing club.
    0:34:43 I run this investing club with Karen Feinerman, who is one of the panelists on Fast Money on CNBC.
    0:34:44 She’s a hedge fund manager.
    0:34:45 You would love her.
    0:34:46 She’s so brilliant.
    0:34:55 And we’re teaching 300 women and growing how to invest every other Monday night on Zoom.
    0:35:02 And we pick stocks together and we talk about diversification and trends and everybody can ask their questions.
    0:35:14 And investing is the kind of thing that is hard for women because there are no right or perfect answers.
    0:35:24 There’s some parts of personal finance where if you ask me a question, I can give you an answer and I can be 100% right.
    0:35:27 What is the best cashback credit card?
    0:35:28 I can look at them all.
    0:35:29 I can run the numbers.
    0:35:31 I can give you an answer.
    0:35:32 I can know that I’m correct.
    0:35:40 What’s the best stock can’t do it because no perfect answer exists because we have backward-looking information and not forward-looking information.
    0:35:46 And so we have to trust in the historical accuracy of what has come before.
    0:35:55 That is difficult for a large portion of women who like to know the answer to any question before we even ask that question.
    0:35:56 We have to do it.
    0:35:57 We have to get comfortable.
    0:36:01 And the way to get comfortable is by actually doing it.
    0:36:18 And one thing that has really, really helped when you look at Gen Z and millennials is that we’re now being across the board automatically enrolled in these 401k and other retirement plans at work where we have them.
    0:36:25 The money is being automatically invested into a default like a target date fund.
    0:36:31 So you’re investing whether or not you are doing the work of investing yourself in many cases.
    0:36:39 And if you can allow yourself to sit with that and get comfortable with the fact that you’re not only doing it, but you’re doing it pretty well, that helps people.
    0:36:40 I love that.
    0:36:44 This was, to me, such an interesting conversation, honestly.
    0:36:49 I feel like this whole gender wage gap and transfer of wealth, it’s really shifting everything.
    0:36:54 Let’s move on to some more general advice, tactical financial advice.
    0:36:57 I want to start with the concept of financial freedom, right?
    0:37:04 I feel like the concept of financial freedom has changed, especially for millennials, for Gen Z.
    0:37:07 How do you think we should go about thinking about financial freedom?
    0:37:11 Well, I’m interested in knowing how you think it’s changed.
    0:37:12 What is it to you?
    0:37:19 Well, I feel like now it’s more about enjoying life, doing what I want, right?
    0:37:21 It’s really not about becoming a billionaire.
    0:37:32 It’s what’s the amount of money that I need where I can live comfortably, buy what I want, and enjoy life, work out, be healthy, sit in the sun.
    0:37:33 You know, that’s what I think of.
    0:37:36 That’s pretty much my definition, too.
    0:37:44 It’s just my definition, I think, extends for a longer period of time because of my age, right?
    0:37:58 So I look at this and I think I want all of that, but I want to be able at some point to just work when I want to work and know that those things will continue for as long as I live.
    0:38:03 So I think that’s where the disparity in financial freedom comes in.
    0:38:17 And I think younger generations define it in terms for today and older generations define it in terms that include a retirement that might last for three decades.
    0:38:24 So one of the things that I think a lot of my listeners are probably going through right now, we’ve got a lot of 30-year-olds, is buying or renting.
    0:38:31 And traditionally, when we’re talking about the American dream, financial freedom, a lot of it is also like being a homeowner, right?
    0:38:34 Do you feel like it’s important to be a homeowner?
    0:38:36 Do you feel like it’s a good investment strategy?
    0:38:39 And what are some of the things we should think of renting versus buying?
    0:38:48 I feel like being a homeowner is a helpful way to save money over the long term.
    0:38:58 If you think about buying versus renting, month to month, right now the costs are actually closer than they’ve ever been.
    0:39:07 But when you own, you are putting equity, you’re building equity in this house.
    0:39:10 And that is a form of forced savings.
    0:39:24 And what happens if you get to the end of the road, if you pay down a mortgage for a long enough period of time, or even if you swap out of it and out of a couple of homes, but you’ve built up some equity and then you build up some more.
    0:39:35 You end up with this cushion of cash and you can use that cushion to supplement your standard of living.
    0:39:37 You can use it to pay for long-term care.
    0:39:39 You can use it to keep a roof over your head.
    0:39:43 You can use it to sell and move to Costa Rica.
    0:39:48 You have choices because you have this additional cushion.
    0:40:03 And if you’ve rented your whole life, unless you took the difference between the renting cost and the buying cost, which is a lot slimmer than it used to be, and you put that away every single month, you don’t have that additional sum of money.
    0:40:09 So that’s where being a homeowner, I think, is additive to your bottom line.
    0:40:10 There are other differences.
    0:40:20 We know in a whole bunch of different situations that autonomy is one of the things that make people happy.
    0:40:33 You’re happier at your job if you feel like you’ve got enough autonomy to rearrange the furniture or to put your own stuff up on the walls or to decide that you’re going to come in at 9.30 rather than 9 o’clock.
    0:40:49 You’re just happier, and you are happier where you live if you feel like you have enough autonomy to make the place what you want it to be, and you’re more likely to have that if you own rather than if you rent.
    0:40:52 But there are a lot of cases where you shouldn’t own, right?
    0:40:56 If you’re not going to be someplace for five years, I don’t think you should buy.
    0:41:02 The cost of buying is just too steep.
    0:41:14 I don’t think that mortgage rates at this level should stop people who want to be in a place for six, seven years and more.
    0:41:20 You’ll eventually, hopefully, get an opportunity to refi that loan.
    0:41:23 But there are cases where renting is just better.
    0:41:25 You gave such good advice.
    0:41:27 Like, I’m in this predicament now.
    0:41:39 To your point, I see a lot of my friends who have been homeowners, and I see them like really leveling up because every time they switch a house and they’ll make like 200 grand, and they just keep playing with that money and growing it and growing it.
    0:41:44 So I do see a lot of my friends who have dabbled in homeownership do really well.
    0:41:46 That’s inspiring to me.
    0:41:49 It’s just that in New York, it gets crazy.
    0:41:50 It’s so crazy.
    0:41:53 So I feel like people who are in different cities also have a different experience.
    0:41:56 It’s way easier to buy a house if you live in the suburbs, you know.
    0:42:00 But you have more choice now than you used to have.
    0:42:07 I know young couples who are thinking they live in New York where the price of homeownership is unsustainable.
    0:42:09 They’re looking at Philadelphia.
    0:42:11 They’re looking at Charlotte.
    0:42:17 They’re looking at other places where because they can work remotely, they could keep their jobs.
    0:42:27 They could make some friends, and they could be homeowners and have a standard of living that just is a little bit easier.
    0:42:34 Okay, so something that you talk a lot about, and I was looking around your website, and I saw that you were like, what is your money type?
    0:42:38 And you have this quiz that people can take for their money type on hermoney.com.
    0:42:40 So talk to us about money types.
    0:42:41 What is that?
    0:42:42 Why is it important to know?
    0:42:49 It’s important to know how you’re wired and why you’re wired the way you are.
    0:42:52 The money type is love languages, right?
    0:42:58 If you ever read the five love languages, money type is that, just for money.
    0:43:08 So we worked with a PhD who developed this in-depth tool that has been tested on men and women
    0:43:14 to help figure out why you are the way you are with money.
    0:43:20 I mean, you may know that it is hard for you to spend or easy for you to spend.
    0:43:28 You may know that you have trouble losing money or more or less trouble taking risk than other people.
    0:43:36 You may know that you would do anything for the members of your family, even if it meant putting yourself at financial risk.
    0:43:42 All of these things are tied up in our five personality types.
    0:44:00 And I would bet just knowing a little bit more about you and about your audience, that if people went to hermoney.com and they took our diagnostic, our questionnaire, our money type quiz, you’ve got an audience that is full of what we call visionaries.
    0:44:16 A lot of entrepreneurs are visionaries and visionaries have to be careful when it comes to their own personal finances because it is really tempting to throw all of your money against the business and think that that business is going to be your retirement plan.
    0:44:21 And we know the statistics on businesses that succeed versus fail.
    0:44:27 And you give up a lot of years trying to get that business off the ground and very quickly, you can get yourself in trouble.
    0:44:35 The other thing that I like about money type so much is that we’re not all just one type.
    0:44:42 We’ve got a primary type and then we have a couple of secondary types that make up our personality.
    0:44:56 And if you know your partner’s money type, it’s helpful in navigating the relationship and the conversations that the two of you have about money.
    0:45:09 I was recently on a different podcast and the hosts had taken the money type questionnaire and they said, I feel so seen because there’s something about this diagnostic.
    0:45:11 It just gets people.
    0:45:15 I felt this way the first time I took it and I’m a producer.
    0:45:21 That’s my primary money type with a little bit of connoisseur, which means I like to spend in as well.
    0:45:22 And it’s really true.
    0:45:28 And it’s really interesting that a test can get you so well.
    0:45:29 It’s so true.
    0:45:35 And I’m happy that you brought up relationships because I actually recently ended a relationship.
    0:45:39 And one of my primary reasons was our views on money were so different.
    0:45:43 He’s richer than I am and was so cheap.
    0:45:46 And I was just like, I can’t do this.
    0:45:47 I like to live a life of luxury.
    0:45:49 I like to spend my money.
    0:45:54 Not that I’m frivolous, but it’s just like, what’s the point of choosing such a hard job if you’re not?
    0:45:55 Right.
    0:45:58 If no one’s spending their money, why are we working so hard?
    0:45:59 Yeah.
    0:46:05 And it’s good that you figured this out before you got engaged to the guy or worse, married the guy, right?
    0:46:08 In my house, we say this is why we work.
    0:46:12 And we say it for exactly the reasons that you just described.
    0:46:13 We work hard.
    0:46:20 And we work hard so that if we want to get on a plane and fly across the country, we don’t have to think about it.
    0:46:28 This is the payoff of working so hard and producing.
    0:46:31 And I acknowledge we are definitely privileged.
    0:46:39 I’m fortunate to have a career that I love, which makes working hard feel like not working as hard.
    0:46:41 But this is why we work.
    0:46:44 If they didn’t pay us, we wouldn’t work so hard.
    0:46:48 We’ll be right back after a quick break from our sponsors.
    0:46:51 Hello, young Improfiters.
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    0:48:13 Hey, young improfters.
    0:48:16 I know so many of you are in your grind season.
    0:48:19 You’re working that 9 to 5, and then you’re 5 to midnight,
    0:48:21 building that dream.
    0:48:22 That’s how I started Yap Media.
    0:48:24 So keep going and hustling.
    0:48:27 But I do want to give you some advice because if you’re a side hustler,
    0:48:33 I know personally how hard it can be to find the right tools for your team without breaking the bank.
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    0:49:03 I wish that I had Microsoft Teams Free back when I was first starting Yap.
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    0:49:10 If we had Microsoft Teams Free, we would have gotten way further faster.
    0:49:15 Because with Microsoft Teams Free, you can keep your client documents, invoices,
    0:49:18 and brand assets organized with their shared file storage.
    0:49:21 You can access everything you need all in one place.
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    0:49:31 making it easier for you to keep your project or business on track.
    0:49:37 Built by Microsoft, Teams offers a secure, professional, and reliable platform for entrepreneurs
    0:49:38 to build their businesses.
    0:49:41 It’s flexible, secure, and available everywhere.
    0:49:42 Best of all, it’s free.
    0:49:44 Stop paying for tools.
    0:49:47 Get everything you need for free with Microsoft Teams.
    0:49:48 So why wait?
    0:49:52 Try Microsoft Teams today and start growing your side hustle without the extra cost.
    0:49:57 Head over to aka.ms slash profiting today to sign up for free.
    0:50:02 That’s aka.ms slash profiting to sign up today for free.
    0:50:07 Yeah, fam, spring is just around the corner, and I’m already planning my next getaway,
    0:50:09 and that’s to Portugal for my best friend’s wedding.
    0:50:13 Now, I’m paying for this one out of pocket because it’s not for work, it’s a vacation.
    0:50:16 And so I love for my vacation trips to feel free.
    0:50:21 And I love using points for travel, and I’m always looking for ways to earn more.
    0:50:26 And in the last six months, I’ve been using a platform called Built to pay my rent,
    0:50:28 and it has been a total game changer.
    0:50:32 I’m getting more airline points and hotel points than ever just by paying my rent,
    0:50:34 something I would have already been doing.
    0:50:38 Now I’m sponsored by them, and I can’t wait to share with you that you can join as well,
    0:50:42 no matter what your landlord or apartment complex situation is like.
    0:50:47 There’s no cost to join, and just by paying rent, you unlock flexible points that can be
    0:50:51 transferred to your favorite hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride,
    0:50:52 and so much more.
    0:50:55 When you pay rent through Built, you unlock two powerful benefits.
    0:50:59 First, you earn one of the industry’s most valuable points on rent every month.
    0:51:03 No matter where you live or who your landlord is, your rent now works for you.
    0:51:07 Second, you gain access to exclusive neighborhood benefits in your city.
    0:51:12 Built’s neighborhood benefits are things like extra points on dining out, locally, complimentary
    0:51:17 post-workout shapes, free mats or towels at your favorite fitness studios, and unique experiences
    0:51:19 that only Built members can access.
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    0:51:27 points around the world, meaning your rent can literally take you places.
    0:51:31 So if you’re not earning points on my rent, my question is, what are you waiting for?
    0:51:37 Start paying rent through Built and take advantage of your neighborhood benefits by joining joinbuilt.com
    0:51:37 slash profiting.
    0:51:41 That’s J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash profiting.
    0:51:44 Make sure you use our URL so they know that we sent you.
    0:51:47 That’s joinbuilt.com slash profiting to sign up for Built today.
    0:51:52 This has been such an awesome conversation.
    0:51:53 Okay, a couple more questions.
    0:51:55 Let’s talk about budgeting.
    0:51:58 There’s so much inflation going on.
    0:52:00 Everything is just way more expensive.
    0:52:05 There’s a lot of keeping up with the Joneses with social media, a lot of comparison, feeling
    0:52:07 like you need to keep buying.
    0:52:12 And for instance, with me, I feel like I always got to buy so much clothes because I’m always
    0:52:16 photographed in my outfits and then suddenly I don’t want to wear the same thing again.
    0:52:20 So talk to us about how we can avoid overspending.
    0:52:24 Well, first of all, are you not on the RealReal?
    0:52:27 You should just be turning over your closet.
    0:52:31 I mean, this is what I do because I’m the same.
    0:52:38 I do a lot of appearances and I don’t want to be wearing the same thing all the time.
    0:52:43 And I wear it a couple of times and I send it to the RealReal and I buy something else on
    0:52:48 the RealReal and I run a credit and it makes me feel like I’m shopping for free, even though
    0:52:49 it’s not quite shopping for free.
    0:52:52 And that I’m doing something a little bit better for the environment.
    0:52:55 And so that’s my shopping suggestion.
    0:53:03 But when it comes to overspending in general, I think that the secret is that most people have
    0:53:06 absolutely no idea where their money is actually going.
    0:53:14 So when we teach budgeting and we have a program called Finance Fix where we teach budgeting and
    0:53:21 how to do this in a way that you can actually save something, we put people through this process
    0:53:23 of figuring out where their money is going.
    0:53:27 We use technology to do it so you don’t have to do it by hand.
    0:53:34 And once you see where you’ve been using your money, then you have the tools and the ammunition
    0:53:41 to make changes about where you consciously want to use your money.
    0:53:45 And so it’s not, don’t buy the coffee, right?
    0:53:47 Everybody’s least favorite example.
    0:53:55 It’s if the coffee is the thing that lights up your day, then by all means, buy the coffee.
    0:54:02 But if you could care less and really what you want is a little bit of caffeine to help you
    0:54:06 get out the door, then make it at home and have a sip and go about your day and spend your
    0:54:09 money on something that you actually value.
    0:54:11 I know where all my money is going.
    0:54:13 It’s Sephora and Revolve.
    0:54:16 All my money is just going straight there.
    0:54:19 Okay, let’s talk about paying down debt.
    0:54:20 A lot of people have student loans.
    0:54:22 A lot of people have debts.
    0:54:24 You’ve got this avalanche method.
    0:54:28 Talk to us about the best strategies for paying down debt in your opinion.
    0:54:37 The cheapest way, the cheapest, fastest way to pay off debt is to just stack it highest interest
    0:54:39 rate to lowest interest rate.
    0:54:44 Pay off the highest interest rate debts first while making the minimum payments on the rest.
    0:54:49 Once that high interest rate debt is gone, then you just move on to the next one and so on
    0:54:50 and so on and so on.
    0:54:54 The student loan debts are a little bit of a different beast.
    0:54:58 Long-term debts, student loans, mortgages, car loans.
    0:55:02 You basically want to pay those off on the schedule that you’re given.
    0:55:09 If you’re struggling with your student loan debts and their federal debts, then you want
    0:55:15 to make sure you’re enrolled in an income repayment program through the Department of Education.
    0:55:19 We’re getting some changes to those programs that are helpful.
    0:55:24 As long as you’re enrolled, you should get notified of the changes and they should come your way.
    0:55:36 But don’t let paying student loan debt faster get in the way of doing important things like grabbing the match from your 401k.
    0:55:48 401k because if you look at the return on your money, the way that we think about or the way that we should think about return on your money is equivalent to the interest rate.
    0:55:56 So if you’re paying off a student loan debt at 6%, that’s like getting a 6% return on your money.
    0:56:04 If you’re getting 50 cents on the dollar as a match in your 401k, that’s a 50% return on your money.
    0:56:09 And you can’t not get that because you want to pay off the debt at 6%.
    0:56:11 You just pay off the debt at 6% a little bit slower.
    0:56:14 Let’s talk about improving your credit.
    0:56:20 So I actually recently messed up my credit because I was putting all, yeah, it was really dumb.
    0:56:28 I was spending everything on my business credit cards and I just thought it was good that I wasn’t spending on my own credit cards.
    0:56:31 And like I was like shutting down my personal credit cards.
    0:56:35 And then I realized, oops, I wasn’t supposed to do that.
    0:56:38 You need to actually have credit cards.
    0:56:43 And I always used to, because I have a lot of cash, I would just pay it off, pay it off to zero balance.
    0:56:45 And you’re actually not supposed to do that.
    0:56:47 Oh, no, you are supposed to do that.
    0:56:48 You are supposed to do that.
    0:56:52 Tell me about it because I feel confused about what should we actually be doing with our personal credit.
    0:56:58 You should be using your personal credit cards and you should be paying them off every month.
    0:56:59 Just to zero.
    0:57:01 Pay them off to zero.
    0:57:04 Interest rates are way too high.
    0:57:08 The average credit card interest rate, I just looked this up yesterday, is 28%.
    0:57:09 That’s insane.
    0:57:10 It’s insane.
    0:57:14 You don’t want to be paying interest on a credit card.
    0:57:26 So the way to do this is to understand that there are a couple of factors that go into your credit score and you need to simultaneously manage all of them.
    0:57:35 If you pay late, especially if you pay late more than once, that’s really going to hurt your score.
    0:57:40 The second, and this is where you got in trouble, is credit utilization.
    0:57:46 That’s the percentage of credit that you have available to you that you’re actually using.
    0:57:52 We want to keep that number below 30% at all times.
    0:58:02 So if you have a heavy spending month, sometimes when I go on vacation, I have a heavy spending month that I spend more than 30% of my credit limit on a card.
    0:58:05 If you do that, the thing to do is just pay the bill now.
    0:58:09 Pay it twice a month rather than once a month to bring the utilization down.
    0:58:23 The problem that you got into by closing those credit cards is that you shrunk the pool of available credit that you had and that hurt your score.
    0:58:31 The other thing that you did, another factor, it’s not as big as the first two, but it’s something called length of credit or credit history.
    0:58:37 The longer your credit relationships, the more beneficial it is to your score.
    0:58:43 When you close those cards, if they were the cards that you had had the longest, you hurt that factor too.
    0:58:45 So that’s how you do it.
    0:58:46 Yeah.
    0:58:49 And actually I did have a credit card that was with me for like so long.
    0:58:53 And then the credit card company ended the card.
    0:58:55 And I was like, oh man, I’m really screwed.
    0:58:58 They ended it because you weren’t using it, right?
    0:58:59 No, no.
    0:59:03 Like that type of card retired because I had it for so long.
    0:59:05 And then suddenly I was like, oh my God, I have no credit cards.
    0:59:06 And I didn’t even realize.
    0:59:09 I’m fixing it though.
    0:59:12 It’s not that terrible, but I’m fixing it.
    0:59:12 Cool.
    0:59:15 So let’s talk about investing in general.
    0:59:17 I’m just going to give you a general question.
    0:59:21 I actually asked Susie Orman this question when she came on the show.
    0:59:25 If you had $100,000 to invest, you already had your emergency fund.
    0:59:27 You already had savings, all that.
    0:59:29 You just had $100,000 cash.
    0:59:31 Where would you put it?
    0:59:38 What I’m doing with that kind of money right now is splitting it up and buying the stocks
    0:59:42 that we’ve been picking for our investing club, right?
    0:59:48 I have a diversified portfolio that is set up to get me to the retirement that I want to
    0:59:48 get to.
    0:59:50 I am on track.
    0:59:51 I have met my savings goals.
    0:59:58 So if this is quite literally free money, I’m going to put it into the picks that we’re
    1:00:00 picking for our investing club.
    1:00:06 And so recently, we’ve been looking at stocks like Lululemon.
    1:00:08 We’ve got JPMorgan Chase.
    1:00:14 We’ve got a bunch of stocks in the portfolio, but we add one about every month.
    1:00:16 And sometimes we sell one.
    1:00:18 And I would do that.
    1:00:19 That’s so cool.
    1:00:25 So this investment club is basically, you guys all talk about stocks and give guidance
    1:00:25 to each other.
    1:00:27 How does one join your investment club?
    1:00:29 So you can go to hermoney.com.
    1:00:32 It’s called Investing Fix.
    1:00:36 If anybody wants to try it out, you can do it free for a month.
    1:00:42 But the way it works is that every month we present four different investing options.
    1:00:45 We look at them on four different dimensions.
    1:00:46 How do they make their money?
    1:00:48 What do we like about them?
    1:00:49 What don’t we like about them?
    1:00:52 And would we buy them at the current price?
    1:00:59 And then the club votes on what we add to the portfolio and what we take away from the portfolio.
    1:01:00 It’s a democracy.
    1:01:02 Democracy rules.
    1:01:04 And it’s been a lot of fun.
    1:01:11 Some of the women in our club have stepped up and presented stocks that they’re interested in.
    1:01:14 And some of those have been purchased for the club.
    1:01:18 One of our members suggested United Rentals and we bought that.
    1:01:20 It’s been a huge win.
    1:01:24 So we’re all learning from each other, which is just so amazing.
    1:01:25 That’s so cool.
    1:01:30 So it’s actually like you guys are pooling your money together and investing together?
    1:01:31 We’re not.
    1:01:40 We run a group portfolio that the club itself runs and is invested by the votes that the club decides.
    1:01:46 But a lot of members like me are buying the picks for our own portfolios.
    1:01:47 I love it.
    1:01:49 Well, Jean, this was such an awesome conversation.
    1:01:52 I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests.
    1:01:55 Then at the end of the year, we typically do something fun with it.
    1:02:03 So the first one is, what is one actionable thing our young and profiters can do today to become more profitable tomorrow?
    1:02:07 Start tracking your spending.
    1:02:10 Figuring out where that money is going for real.
    1:02:11 Yeah.
    1:02:19 If you don’t know where it’s going, then you have no control over what it’s doing for you, whether it’s a business expense or a personal expense.
    1:02:25 And I know it’s tedious and I know it’s boring, but sometimes boring is better.
    1:02:28 And what is your secret to profiting in life?
    1:02:30 And this can go beyond financial advice.
    1:02:45 My secret to profiting, and I got to tell you, I lost my mom recently and my lifelong friends came out of the woodwork and haven’t left me alone in a good way, in the best way.
    1:02:53 And my secret is to invest as much energy as absolutely possible in those friends.
    1:02:54 That’s so beautiful.
    1:02:55 It’s so true.
    1:03:01 Sometimes you forget about relationships and nothing in the world is more important, I think, than relationships.
    1:03:02 A hundred percent.
    1:03:05 Jean, where can everybody learn more about you and Her Money?
    1:03:13 So I’m on social pretty much everywhere at Jean Chatzky, and you can find us at hermoney.com.
    1:03:14 Amazing.
    1:03:16 Well, thank you so much for joining us on Young and Profiting Podcast.
    1:03:18 Thanks for having me.
    1:03:32 Thanks for having me.

    Determined to master her messy personal finances, Jean Chatzky immersed herself in learning about finance, financial freedom, and investing. She worked on Wall Street to understand the stock market, then transitioned to financial journalism. After being fired for being “too expensive,” she turned her side hustles into HerMoney—a safe space where women can build wealth and take control of their money. In this episode, Jean shares actionable insights on achieving financial freedom and building lasting confidence around money.

    In this episode, Hala and Jean will discuss:

    (00:00) Introduction

    01:12 From Journalism to Financial Expertise

    03:06 Skill Stacking

    06:38 The Gender Wage Gap

    11:21 Women Controlling Wealth and Spending

    20:07 Navigating Relationships and Success

    27:03 Women and Investing

    30:09 The Importance of Financial Freedom

    31:36 Homeownership: Is It Worth It?

    35:47 Understanding Your Money Type

    40:15 Budgeting and Avoiding Overspending

    42:39 Strategies for Paying Down Debt

    44:33 Improving Your Credit Score

    47:34 Investing Wisely

    Jean Chatzky is the CEO and co-founder of HerMoney Media, a digital platform focused on enhancing financial planning, literacy, and wellness among women. She is an award-winning personal finance journalist, bestselling author, and host of the HerMoney podcast. With a background that spans Forbes, SmartMoney, and a 25-year tenure on NBC’s Today show, she has earned many accolades, such as the Gracie Award for Outstanding Host. She has authored multiple bestselling books, including Women with Money and Pay It Down! She frequently appears on major platforms like CNN, MSNBC, and The Oprah Winfrey Show. 

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    Entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship podcast, Business, Business podcast, Self Improvement, Self-Improvement, Personal development, Starting a business, Strategy, Investing, Sales, Selling, Psychology, Productivity, Entrepreneurs, AI, Artificial Intelligence, Technology, Marketing, Negotiation, Money, Finance, Side hustle, Startup, mental health, Career, Leadership, Mindset, Health, Growth mindset, Finance, Financial, Personal Finance, Wealth, Stock Market, Scalability, Investment, Financial Freedom, Risk Management, Financial Planning, Business Coaching, Finance podcast, Investing, Saving

  • Moment 209: The Real Reason You’re Gaining Weight (Even If You’re Exercising!)

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  • Anti-Business Billionaires: Lessons from Steve Jobs, James Dyson, and Yvon Chouinard

    AI transcript
    0:00:01 They’re like, would you be interested in selling your company?
    0:00:03 The response was, fuck you.
    0:00:05 This is a family heirloom.
    0:00:22 Okay, so what we’re talking about today is, basically, I don’t listen to any business
    0:00:24 podcasts other than Founders.
    0:00:26 It’s the only business podcast I listen to.
    0:00:30 I listen to Founders, and I listen to MMA and True Crime.
    0:00:31 That’s pretty much it.
    0:00:35 And so I view you as my friend, but I also am a fan of yours.
    0:00:39 And you tweeted out this amazing thing.
    0:00:43 It was about the anti-business person, the anti-businessman billionaire.
    0:00:48 So the first tenet of these anti-business billionaires is they have high levels of disagreeableness.
    0:00:55 This is very important because everybody around you, I just used a reference of Michael Dell.
    0:00:56 Michael Dell could be on this list, too.
    0:00:59 I’m reading his autobiography, like I said earlier, and I got to the point where they’re
    0:01:04 like, he’s taking the company private, and it’s so difficult what he’s trying to do.
    0:01:06 And everybody’s just like, why don’t you just give up, Michael?
    0:01:07 You’re already rich.
    0:01:08 You can start another company.
    0:01:10 He’s like, I don’t want to start another company.
    0:01:11 I want this.
    0:01:13 This is my first and last company.
    0:01:15 In his case, that’s very rare to have your first company or your last company.
    0:01:16 This is my last company.
    0:01:17 But then he has a line.
    0:01:20 He goes, I’m going to care about this company after I’m dead.
    0:01:22 I was like, oh, that’s a different level.
    0:01:26 So the disagreeableness, like if we use the three people in the clip, which is like Steve
    0:01:32 Jobs, James Dyson, and Yvonne Chouinart, it’s just like they are hell-bent on making the world.
    0:01:33 They don’t bend to the world, right?
    0:01:34 They make the world bend to them.
    0:01:39 And they refuse to compromise on the product quality, even when it seems absurd.
    0:01:42 And like James Dyson, I got to tell you a crazy story about James Dyson.
    0:01:46 Because, you know, everybody’s like, oh, yeah, Dyson, the guy that like I wash my hands and
    0:01:48 like dries my, it’s a hand dryer in the bathroom everywhere.
    0:01:50 And it’s that cyclonic vacuum cleaner.
    0:01:53 It’s like, no, the guy has built one of the most successful companies of all time.
    0:01:56 I think it’s one of the largest privately owned companies in the world.
    0:01:57 You want to hear some crazy?
    0:01:59 So there’s always rumors, right?
    0:02:00 And again, privately held, so you don’t have to tell.
    0:02:04 And everybody’s like, oh, yeah, you know, he’s probably worth like 10 or 20 billion.
    0:02:06 I was like, you’re off by like a lot.
    0:02:10 So a friend of mine happens to know somebody that works for it.
    0:02:14 And usually you can find, you can find hints, you know, if you look at their family
    0:02:15 office, right?
    0:02:18 And a friend of mine knows somebody at the family office.
    0:02:19 So they’re just like, man, we have a big problem.
    0:02:23 Like they have to deploy like four to five billion dollars every year.
    0:02:24 Right.
    0:02:24 OK.
    0:02:28 And so they’re like, they you look and he’s like, James Dyson now is like the largest
    0:02:29 producer of green peas in Europe.
    0:02:32 He owns the most sheep in the entire world.
    0:02:33 Like you see all these crazy.
    0:02:34 So like, why?
    0:02:35 Where’s the four or five billion dollars coming from?
    0:02:40 It’s like the rumor is that he’s been taking out, you know, four or five, six, seven
    0:02:43 billion dollars a year in dividends, retaining the enterprise value, obviously, because he
    0:02:45 never saw a company still is 100 percent of it.
    0:02:49 So I was just this like super fancy private investor only conference.
    0:02:49 Right.
    0:02:50 There’s only a handful of people there.
    0:02:56 One guy controls a ton of capital and he listens to the podcast who we were talking and he has
    0:03:02 a problem where like the more assets and management have the bigger you have to talk about this
    0:03:05 over and over again, like to move the needle, the opportunity has to be just so large.
    0:03:09 And so they were buying like smaller family companies, maybe in like the billion to two billion
    0:03:09 range.
    0:03:12 And so now he’s like, I have too much, too many assets or management.
    0:03:14 I have to like, I have to swing bigger.
    0:03:17 So they go to approach Dyson.
    0:03:21 OK, I’m going to paraphrase the response back from Dyson is going to answer your question about
    0:03:22 high levels of disagreeableness.
    0:03:23 Right.
    0:03:25 They’re like, would you be interested in selling your company?
    0:03:27 The response was, fuck you.
    0:03:29 This is a family heirloom.
    0:03:35 So it’s like, again, he’s not doing it for money.
    0:03:36 He’s run out of the money he will ever spend.
    0:03:38 He’s doing it because he loves it.
    0:03:41 He wants you just talked about maybe if your kids want to work in the business, you see that
    0:03:41 a lot.
    0:03:43 They they’re doing it because they want to pass it on to the next generation.
    0:03:46 They want to die still owning this thing.
    0:03:47 There is not.
    0:03:48 You can’t go to him and be like, I’ll give you two trillion.
    0:03:49 It doesn’t matter.
    0:03:54 It’s just there’s no amount of money that you give James Dyson to stop working on Dyson, just
    0:03:56 like there would have been no amount of money you could have gave Steve Jobs to stop.
    0:04:00 If you go to Steve Jobs, imagine going to Steve Jobs and like, hey, this iPhone, you
    0:04:03 great. You created the most successful consumer product of all time.
    0:04:07 How much could I would I have to pay you to not do this?
    0:04:11 There’s just no could you there’s no number that you could have spit out that he’d be like,
    0:04:12 OK, yeah, I’ll retire.
    0:04:14 It’s like, I just this is what I like to do.
    0:04:17 Who’s the most disagreeable person you’ve ever studied?
    0:04:20 Oh, that’s a good question.
    0:04:25 I mean, James Dyson’s got to be up there because if you see the bookshelf that’s in back of me,
    0:04:28 it’s an order by episode number starting in the upper left hand corner.
    0:04:29 So it goes all the way down.
    0:04:34 And so I’m I’m going to hit like 400 biographies read of history of good entrepreneurs this
    0:04:38 year. And my number one recommendation is still his first autobiography.
    0:04:41 He wrote an autobiography when he was 45 and he wrote another autobiography when he was 75.
    0:04:43 They’re both great. But the first one’s really great.
    0:04:48 The reason I recommend that one is because it’s all struggle.
    0:04:52 The 90 percent of the book is just him failing over and over and over again and him refusing
    0:04:53 to give up.
    0:04:55 And what’s he obsessed with?
    0:04:57 Like because obsessing over vacuums is strange.
    0:05:03 So he would describe himself as an inventor and an engineer, definitely as an inventor.
    0:05:08 And so I think what I would say is what he’s obsessed with is is making the world bend
    0:05:09 to what he wants to happen.
    0:05:13 And so in many cases, if you look at his early career, he was inventing a bunch of other successful
    0:05:17 inventions and they were like taken from him because he didn’t keep control of the company.
    0:05:21 There’s like all these little things are happening to him that cause him a lot of emotional pain
    0:05:24 that then he fixes in the new company.
    0:05:29 And so for him, it’s just like he spent 14 years before he had the ideas like he’s kind
    0:05:32 of similar to Steve Jobs and Evon Gennard.
    0:05:36 They’re offended at the mediocrity of most of everything around us.
    0:05:39 They always talk about like, why is every product we use suck?
    0:05:40 They talk about over and over and over again.
    0:05:42 And so his idea is like, I bought a vacuum cleaner from Hoover.
    0:05:48 It gets clogged after the first time I use it because it has a bag.
    0:05:49 This is stupid.
    0:05:50 Why do all vacuum cleaners have bags?
    0:05:55 And those then from that thought, it’s 14 years, 5,127 prototypes.
    0:06:00 So he has a, the world’s first cyclonic vacuum up to his incredibly difficult standards that
    0:06:01 he owns a hundred percent of.
    0:06:05 When does having that trait of high disagreeableness go too far?
    0:06:06 Well, that’s a good question.
    0:06:07 I don’t know.
    0:06:09 Does his family love him?
    0:06:12 Like, do they, like, does he have a good relationship with his children?
    0:06:14 It’s like Steve Jobs did, did not.
    0:06:19 And so can you be highly disagreeable and still loved by your children?
    0:06:22 Can you be highly disagreeable and still be proud of how you treat one another?
    0:06:28 So there, there is a devastating, um, line in Steve Jobs biography by Walter Isaacson,
    0:06:31 because Walter was collaborating with him as Steve was dying.
    0:06:36 And he told Walter, one of the reasons he wanted to do this biography is because he wanted
    0:06:40 his kid, he sacrificed so much of his time at Apple that he wanted his kids to know the
    0:06:42 kind of person he was and what was important to him.
    0:06:43 That’s devastating line.
    0:06:47 Dyson, from what I understand, uh, has great relationships with, he’s still married to
    0:06:49 the same wife, has great relationships with his kids.
    0:06:51 Some of them work inside the company.
    0:06:51 Some don’t.
    0:06:55 Um, but yeah, again, I spent a lot of the, as you know, because you listen to the podcast,
    0:06:57 I spent a lot of time talking about their childhood, their relationship with their father.
    0:07:01 Dyson’s dad passed away when Dyson was like nine.
    0:07:07 And he said, you know, he’s writing a biography when he’s 75 and he still cries and gets sad that
    0:07:10 his dad, he didn’t get to know his dad as an adult.
    0:07:14 His dad didn’t get to see him grow up, see his success, meet his grandchildren.
    0:07:18 And so I think having that experience was just like, man, I want to make sure my kids don’t
    0:07:21 have that massive hole that I had in my life.
    0:07:22 Not in any fault of his own.
    0:07:24 His dad died of cancer from at a young age.
    0:07:27 No, so I don’t think they’re mutually exclusive, but yeah, you, you, you definitely see a lot
    0:07:31 of these highly disagreeable people like James Cameron is probably the best podcast I’ve ever
    0:07:34 done in terms of like what I like craft.
    0:07:35 And I’m really proud of that episode.
    0:07:39 I did like two or three years ago and I start the episode kind of, you know, giving you a
    0:07:43 hint of the highly disagreeable personality where I’m like reading from this GQ article.
    0:07:48 And it’s like, James Cameron has moved to New Zealand with his fifth wife.
    0:07:53 And it’s like, nobody could have a fifth wife without, that’s that, that should tell you
    0:07:55 if you’re reading between your lines, that’s a difficult person to deal.
    0:07:58 All right, everybody.
    0:08:03 I know when you think to yourself, what is the best video series you think of us?
    0:08:08 When you think of who is the best creator you think of us and the Webby awards are happening
    0:08:09 right now.
    0:08:10 It’s like an online awards thing.
    0:08:15 And we are nominated for best video series and best creator, but it’s stiff competition.
    0:08:16 Sam, who are we going up against?
    0:08:16 Okay.
    0:08:22 So we are up against, I shade my vag for this, which is sort of interesting.
    0:08:24 I’ve listened to a few episodes, but honestly.
    0:08:25 A few.
    0:08:26 A few.
    0:08:32 We’re up against Club Shea Shea, which frankly, if you’re listening to this, I think you should
    0:08:34 just, you should just vote for Club Shea Shea.
    0:08:35 I agree.
    0:08:39 So please go vote for the Webby, but don’t vote for us.
    0:08:40 Vote for Club Shea Shea.
    0:08:42 All right, back to the pod.
    0:08:44 All right.
    0:08:49 Number two, they have extreme self-confidence and they do what works for them.
    0:08:52 So what’s an example of that?
    0:08:56 So that line that they do what works for them, there’s this guy named Tim Grover, who was
    0:08:58 the trainer of both Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.
    0:09:00 And he wrote a book all about comparing and contrasting them.
    0:09:01 It was really fascinating.
    0:09:06 And he says what they had in common was that they do what works for them regardless of what
    0:09:06 other people do.
    0:09:07 Like they were indifferent.
    0:09:11 There’s another great line in that book that I think is a lot of people that you and I are
    0:09:14 going to talk about have in common, where it’s like everyone wanted to be like Mike.
    0:09:16 Mike didn’t want to be like anybody else.
    0:09:21 And so in situations like that, which like they are, I would say there’s this line in
    0:09:26 and Dyson’s book where he calls his method of invention, his method of company building.
    0:09:29 He calls it the Edisonian principle of design.
    0:09:32 He is not a big, hey, I have a master plan.
    0:09:37 He’s like, I’m going to just do an experiment, get immediate feedback and do a constant set of
    0:09:37 iterations.
    0:09:40 There’s this great book that I’ve read three times.
    0:09:42 I think every single entrepreneur on the planet should read it.
    0:09:44 It’s called Creative Selection.
    0:09:46 It is written by Ken Kosienda.
    0:09:51 He was a programmer who demoed jobs and in that book is the most detail he helped.
    0:09:57 He was the one that programmed the initial Safari browser and then he created Safari browser
    0:09:59 and then the keyboard for the first iPhone.
    0:10:03 What he shows in there is like, it was just all the great products that came out of Apple
    0:10:08 were just a series of iterative demos to Steve and Steve applying his personal taste.
    0:10:12 This is why I think when you talk to a lot of investors and to me, when I talk to him like,
    0:10:16 man, you think about business way too academically, you know, like as if you could sit at a
    0:10:19 whiteboard and like plan and master plan everything out, it’s like, I don’t see that in the books
    0:10:20 I read.
    0:10:24 It’s like these little, a series of just small decisions every day, getting a bunch of feedback
    0:10:28 and then essentially just changing course slightly every single day.
    0:10:31 And then doing that over a long period of time and constantly proven, you get to amazing products
    0:10:32 and amazing businesses.
    0:10:37 Are the people who have extreme self-confidence, were they self-confident at a young age or did
    0:10:41 something happen like, I guess, born versus becoming that?
    0:10:42 All three of those.
    0:10:47 So if we’re, if Yvonne Chouinard, Steve Jobs, and James Dyson, excessively self-confident
    0:10:48 at a young age.
    0:10:52 And I think part of this has to do, and I’m speaking from my own personal experience, it’s
    0:10:59 like you grow up with almost like you’re seeking revenge for the circumstances in which you’ve
    0:10:59 been born in.
    0:11:00 You know, Steve Jobs was adopted.
    0:11:04 Yvonne Chouinard had no, his family didn’t have any money.
    0:11:06 James Dyson doesn’t have a dad.
    0:11:09 And you just like, everybody’s around you is like, oh, you’re not good enough.
    0:11:11 And you’re like, no, I’m pretty sure I’m better than you are.
    0:11:16 And I will show you and I’m willing to work and make sure to prove what I believe.
    0:11:17 I always say belief comes before ability.
    0:11:19 And, you know, I, I see this over and over again.
    0:11:21 People are like, you shouldn’t be confident.
    0:11:23 You should generate evidence first.
    0:11:25 I’m like, no, you have that completely backwards.
    0:11:30 They believe that they can do great things way before the, like, there’s any proof in the
    0:11:30 physical world.
    0:11:31 Let me give an example.
    0:11:36 Uh, in the Michael Dell book, he hits the fortune 500 when he’s like 26 years old.
    0:11:43 And basically for the listener, Michael Dell, I believe at the age of 16, 17, 18 in college
    0:11:47 in a college dorm, he was selling computer parts to help people assemble computers.
    0:11:48 Right.
    0:11:53 He was, he started Dell in as a, really the prehistory of Dell really happened when he’s like
    0:11:53 16, 17.
    0:11:57 He officially started as a freshman in his freshman dorm at university of Texas.
    0:12:02 But the fortune 500 thing is important because it’s like, yeah, he goes, could the kid that
    0:12:08 grew up reading fortune magazine possibly predict that I’d start a company that broke into the
    0:12:08 fortune 500?
    0:12:11 He goes, yeah, I always thought big.
    0:12:12 He doesn’t try to hide.
    0:12:13 He’s like, yeah, I had a lot of confidence.
    0:12:14 Like I knew I could do this.
    0:12:16 I believed I could do this.
    0:12:17 Now he, did he think he’d hit a 26?
    0:12:19 Probably not, but he got there even faster.
    0:12:20 That’s the point.
    0:12:23 He had the belief first and then he demonstrated the ability.
    0:12:27 You also say that the, so the third principle is they’re obsessed with product quality.
    0:12:34 And I hear people say this a lot, but I’ve, because I’ve never had a job, I’ve never been
    0:12:40 able to like, uh, uh, intern or apprentice at one of these folks who are obsessed with product.
    0:12:43 I’ve never been able to see firsthand what they’re like on a day-to-day basis.
    0:12:53 Can you give me an example of what they do each day in order to actually be product obsessed?
    0:12:56 You know, I love that you frame that question like that.
    0:12:56 What do they do each day?
    0:12:58 I was thinking about this this morning.
    0:13:00 Um, I was thinking about the conversation we’re gonna have today.
    0:13:07 And I think what all the, the, the entrepreneurs I admire have in common is how they want to spend
    0:13:09 their time is working on their company.
    0:13:11 So like I get invited to a lot of things.
    0:13:15 I say no to most of them because like everything that’s not working on the podcast is a giant
    0:13:15 distraction.
    0:13:19 And so if you go and actually look, Tim Cook said this after Steve jobs died.
    0:13:23 He’s like, if you took an inventory of how Steve spent his time, he was at Apple.
    0:13:26 And then when he was an Apple, he was at home with his family.
    0:13:27 He wasn’t going to conferences.
    0:13:29 He wasn’t trying to be on the scene.
    0:13:30 Yvon Chouinard, what is he doing?
    0:13:32 He’s working on product and he’s testing the product.
    0:13:34 James Dyson, 75.
    0:13:36 The guy’s probably worth a hundred billion dollars if we’re being honest.
    0:13:37 And where’s he at?
    0:13:40 He’s on the front, he’s on literally the factory floor.
    0:13:42 And then he’s with the design team.
    0:13:45 The important thing, and you see this, this is the problem with modern day entrepreneurship
    0:13:51 industry is they like, like everything except actual what their company actually does.
    0:13:54 So if you can find love, right?
    0:13:56 In the activity itself, you’re able to do it for a long time.
    0:13:58 I got to have, this is the main thing.
    0:14:00 I had lunch with Sam Zell, who we could talk about too.
    0:14:02 That two hour lunch changed my life, right?
    0:14:08 And his main advice to me was never relinquish the freedom on what you work on.
    0:14:13 He goes, the more successful you become, people are going to try to constantly dangle opportunities
    0:14:15 that are distractions in front of you.
    0:14:16 And they’re going to do that for two reasons.
    0:14:18 They’re going to try to offer you more money and more status.
    0:14:20 He’s like, retain your freedom.
    0:14:21 And he said something that’s fucking brilliant.
    0:14:23 He goes, go for freedom.
    0:14:27 If you have freedom, you can control what you work on.
    0:14:30 If you control what you work on, you can choose to work on what you love.
    0:14:32 If you love it, you’ll do it all the time.
    0:14:34 If you do it all the time, you’ll get good at it.
    0:14:36 And money will come as a result of that.
    0:14:40 And so all of the people that I admire, it’s like, they don’t want to go, you know, they’re
    0:14:41 not trying to go out fundraising.
    0:14:44 They’re not trying to like go party all the time.
    0:14:47 They’re literally like just obsessed with what they’re doing.
    0:14:52 And so everything that like, if you take the inventory of their time, it’s like the time
    0:14:53 is just spent on the company.
    0:14:53 Cause I like that.
    0:14:55 Let me give you my example for me, right?
    0:14:57 You know this because you have a podcast.
    0:15:01 We can log into our podcast host right now and change, you can charge, you could change
    0:15:03 the name of my first million, right?
    0:15:05 To Sam’s club, right?
    0:15:05 You can change it, whatever you want.
    0:15:07 I can change founders, whatever I want.
    0:15:12 The thing you cannot change is the RSS, the URL slug that for the, for the first time you
    0:15:14 set up your RSS feed, right?
    0:15:17 And that URL slug will have the first name of your podcast.
    0:15:18 My podcast went through multiple names.
    0:15:20 The first one was autotelic.
    0:15:25 The definition of autotelic is an activity done for the sake of itself.
    0:15:26 I was telling you right from the rip.
    0:15:29 I don’t care if no one listens, I’m going to do this.
    0:15:32 I, it is in inside of me and I have to get it out.
    0:15:33 I’m going to do this.
    0:15:37 I would be reading these books and talking about history and entrepreneurship and founders
    0:15:39 and crazy psychotic people.
    0:15:40 Cause that’s what I love to do.
    0:15:42 I’d be doing it if no one listened.
    0:15:45 I love hearing you talk about this.
    0:15:49 Do you think that you’ve gotten more crazy and more obsessed reading about these people?
    0:15:50 For sure.
    0:15:50 For sure.
    0:15:55 So first of all, you know this, cause we’ve talked about podcasting a bunch and, and a
    0:15:56 lot of people like try to like part-time it.
    0:15:58 And I think literally like podcasting is a miracle.
    0:16:01 The idea that anything you want to learn, right?
    0:16:02 Me and you grew up similarly.
    0:16:03 We didn’t have access to a lot of money.
    0:16:04 We didn’t, I don’t think you went to an Ivy league school.
    0:16:07 Like I couldn’t go to an Ivy league school at all, right?
    0:16:08 My wife went to an Ivy league school.
    0:16:12 And when I met her and she told me first, I, she said she went to Penn and I was like,
    0:16:15 is that where that football rapist coach guy goes?
    0:16:19 And she’s like, no, it’s like, it’s, she’s like, it’s like, it’s like a, it’s like a big
    0:16:20 school.
    0:16:20 It’s like a big shot.
    0:16:22 Like we’re like, we were part of the Ivy league.
    0:16:24 I was like, what the fuck is Ivy league?
    0:16:25 Is that Hogwarts?
    0:16:26 I don’t know what that means.
    0:16:29 Dude, I have a rather embarrassing story.
    0:16:32 Like, first of all, not only did my parents never grade, graduated college, they never
    0:16:33 graduated high school.
    0:16:37 So the entire time I was growing up, they never mentioned the word college to me one time.
    0:16:40 And so I remember being in high school and they’re like, what colleges are you applying
    0:16:40 to?
    0:16:44 I’m like, what the one I can drive to, cause I got to go to school night.
    0:16:45 Cause I got to work full-time during the day.
    0:16:46 Like, what are you talking about?
    0:16:50 I, I moved in, I went to student housing and I, uh, my roommate was from like Colorado somewhere.
    0:16:52 That was the first time I ever knew.
    0:16:56 And this is really embarrassing that people didn’t work and go to school.
    0:16:58 Like he just went to classes.
    0:16:59 That’s all he did.
    0:17:00 Like he had nothing else.
    0:17:01 I couldn’t even fathom that.
    0:17:06 So the reason I’m so obsessed with podcasting and everything else is like, you have all any subject
    0:17:06 you want to learn about.
    0:17:11 You have somebody that is usually to spend five, 10, you know, 10 plus years studying
    0:17:12 that.
    0:17:14 And you can learn from them for free on demand.
    0:17:18 Anytime you want to, how could you not be absolutely obsessed with that?
    0:17:19 So here’s your question.
    0:17:22 The reason I started reading this, and I didn’t even understand this.
    0:17:24 A friend of mine is the one that told me this.
    0:17:28 He, he visited me in Miami and he’s like, it’s pretty, this is like two years ago.
    0:17:29 And he’s like, it’s pretty obvious what you’re doing.
    0:17:30 I go, what?
    0:17:33 He goes, you didn’t have any mentors or any good, good examples.
    0:17:37 So if you’re like how you are, which is kind of like psychopathically obsessed, he’s like,
    0:17:41 so you just started reading and trying to find like good examples for yourself.
    0:17:45 And so there’s a line, there’s a guy named Larry Gagosian who built this like multi-billion
    0:17:48 dollar art business that he controls a hundred percent of.
    0:17:55 And on the profile that I read to make the episode, there’s a line about him.
    0:18:00 It says he got so good at selling art to the masters of the universe that he became one.
    0:18:05 He starts out literally selling art in a parking lot and he got so successful.
    0:18:06 He’s now a peer.
    0:18:10 So the reason I’m doing this is like, I’m trying to build the best product for the best people
    0:18:10 in the world.
    0:18:14 And so, yeah, like it is, you know, I take a lot of the ideas from the podcast and just
    0:18:18 apply it to my own business, which just happens to be the podcast where I derive the insights
    0:18:19 from to begin with.
    0:18:23 The next one is retention of total control.
    0:18:30 What are the trade-offs of owning everything and being maniacal about the details versus
    0:18:31 delegation?
    0:18:37 Because oftentimes, for example, my favorite author, business author is Felix Dennis.
    0:18:39 He wrote the book, How to Get Rich.
    0:18:42 He’s not nearly as serious as these other guys.
    0:18:47 He’s like kind of like a Mick Jagger and Richard Branson combined.
    0:18:50 He’s like a rock and roll partier, but he became a billionaire.
    0:18:56 He says that delegation is the reason why he’s anything is he’s like I’m a master delegator,
    0:19:01 which I imagine a Richard Branson type of person would say a similar type of thing.
    0:19:09 Whereas you have Elon Musk or maybe Coco Chanel or a couple other folks where they are good
    0:19:15 examples of being in total control and maniacal about the details.
    0:19:19 I think Estee Lauder, I believe she was a pretty nutty.
    0:19:23 What are the pros and cons and trade-offs and which do you prefer?
    0:19:29 I love that you asked this question because this is the great thing about entrepreneurship.
    0:19:31 It’s like you get to decide what’s best for you.
    0:19:33 Like there is not one way.
    0:19:35 There’s not one right way.
    0:19:38 I could give you examples of people I covered that delegated everything and people that delegated
    0:19:39 nothing.
    0:19:40 I just did Todd Graves.
    0:19:41 Have you ever eaten a Raising Cane juice?
    0:19:42 You used to live in Austin.
    0:19:44 You’re a fellow fat boy.
    0:19:50 Well, I was a former fellow fat boy, but I saw him talk.
    0:19:52 I think I’m Theo Vaughn or something like that.
    0:19:54 And I was like, wow, you’re amazing.
    0:19:59 And so I went to Raising Cane’s and started eating it just because he was maniacal.
    0:20:04 Like you don’t think of a fast food restaurant as being focused on the product, but there is
    0:20:05 a need for it for sure.
    0:20:08 But he was like, we only do these types of fries.
    0:20:09 We only do chicken.
    0:20:13 We only, and like, it’s the simplest thing where I’m like, how hard could this possibly
    0:20:15 be that you need 30 years to master this?
    0:20:16 Let’s go figure it out.
    0:20:19 So I just did an episode on him, which I think is going to be one of the most popular
    0:20:20 episodes ever.
    0:20:23 Just because I, when people would ask me like, who’s, you study dead entrepreneurs.
    0:20:25 Like, what about the living ones that you like?
    0:20:27 And I’d bring up Todd Graves and like the chicken finger guy.
    0:20:31 I’m like, no, no, he’s got a, he’s got a really relatable demeanor.
    0:20:32 Yeah.
    0:20:33 You want to hang out with him.
    0:20:38 But also I’m, even if I was, even if he was a jerk, the way he built his business, you
    0:20:41 know, he owns over 90% of a business that’s worth at least $10 billion.
    0:20:43 It’s growing 30% year over year.
    0:20:46 And he’s been doing the same thing, you know, for 30 years and I just love everything.
    0:20:47 I’m obsessed with simplicity.
    0:20:48 I just love everything about him.
    0:20:52 But the funny thing is in one of the interviews I found with him, he literally says, you know,
    0:20:55 people told him when he was younger, you’re, you’re, you’re a micromanager.
    0:20:56 You have to delegate.
    0:20:59 You can’t possibly do the stuff you’re doing now.
    0:21:00 And he has a great line.
    0:21:01 He goes, delegate.
    0:21:02 What kind of word is that?
    0:21:05 Like, he’s just like, that, that doesn’t even make sense to me.
    0:21:08 And he goes, and all the people, the experts that gave me that advice, I’m bigger than they
    0:21:09 are now.
    0:21:12 And so he’s literally given this interview and they interrupt the interview because.
    0:21:17 They had some event and his social media team was showing them the reel of the video
    0:21:19 reel that was about to come out.
    0:21:20 This guy’s, you know, running a business.
    0:21:27 He has a 50,000 employees, 800 stores, you know, unbelievable amount of responsibility.
    0:21:29 And he’s like, it doesn’t go out until I approve it.
    0:21:32 He’s approving every single Steve Jobs did the exact same thing.
    0:21:35 He wouldn’t let Apple guys go out without approving it.
    0:21:37 He, there’s a, there’s another thing.
    0:21:40 Um, every single location, I approve every single new location.
    0:21:43 Uh, you mentioned Elon Musk, early days of SpaceX.
    0:21:47 He personally, Elon personally interviewed the first 3000 employees of SpaceX.
    0:21:50 Sam Walton, go back even further.
    0:21:54 He approved, he picked out, I think the first few thousand Walmarts.
    0:21:57 So a lot of them are, I would consider micromanagers.
    0:22:00 There are some that, you know, delegate, delegate widely.
    0:22:03 What’s more important than that though, is like, it depends on your personality type.
    0:22:05 Like for me, I am a complete micromanager.
    0:22:10 I’m one of the only podcasters still like still making podcasts that actually edits his
    0:22:11 own podcast.
    0:22:14 Every, every, every, every other podcaster tells me you’re a fucking idiot.
    0:22:15 Why are you doing that?
    0:22:17 And it’s just like, I’m completely obsessed with it.
    0:22:20 And I hate it, but I love it at the same time.
    0:22:24 I, it’s the, the part about podcasting I like the least, but it’s so important for me to
    0:22:27 completely control the final product.
    0:22:30 Um, so again, I, I, I don’t think there’s one right way here.
    0:22:33 It’s just like, really, you have to think about like, how do you want to run your business?
    0:22:39 Another thing that you said, uh, was that they, uh, refused to make me too products.
    0:22:47 Is there a story that you have where standing out by having a different product was key to them
    0:22:50 winning or also nearly ruin them?
    0:22:52 Let’s, I don’t know about anybody ruin them.
    0:22:56 Um, let’s use the, the, the, the pre prehistory of Patagonia, right?
    0:22:59 Which is worth a couple of billion dollars, privately held company, you know?
    0:23:04 And as you know, cause it’s in the book in the episode, it’s like, he didn’t, he was kind
    0:23:05 of like a communist.
    0:23:06 He didn’t even want to start a business.
    0:23:08 He was a, he calls himself a dirt bag.
    0:23:10 He was like, I was a dirt bag climber.
    0:23:11 I lived in a van.
    0:23:14 I traveled around just trying to climb mountains.
    0:23:15 And, you know.
    0:23:17 Which by the way, that is, there’s a.
    0:23:17 Dichotomy there.
    0:23:21 If you weren’t, if you’re a communist, why do you fully own your company versus giving
    0:23:22 out equity?
    0:23:24 Cause he’s obsessed with, exactly.
    0:23:26 There’s a, it’s almost like a paradox, right?
    0:23:28 Uh, the, uh, yeah.
    0:23:29 Cause he’s obsessed with control.
    0:23:31 So that, that go all ties back to control.
    0:23:33 Now, sometimes you can maintain control.
    0:23:33 Public company.
    0:23:35 Mark Zuckerberg has complete control of Facebook.
    0:23:36 Public company.
    0:23:38 Steve Jobs had complete control of Apple.
    0:23:39 Public company.
    0:23:40 Dyson, obviously private.
    0:23:41 Bloomberg, private.
    0:23:42 You know, uh, Patagonia, private.
    0:23:47 But if you start there, it’s like his, his whole thing was just like, Hey, I’m, my life
    0:23:53 is literally hangs in the balance of these clips that people use for mountain climbing.
    0:23:54 He’s like, these clips are plastic.
    0:23:55 They suck.
    0:23:55 They break.
    0:23:56 This is not good.
    0:23:59 And they, they, they would optimize for, for cost.
    0:24:00 Cause most dirtbag climbers have no money.
    0:24:02 And so it would be like 75 cents each.
    0:24:03 And what did he do?
    0:24:05 You, you, you ask him what his profession is.
    0:24:06 He said, I’m a blacksmith.
    0:24:08 Cause that was his, his trade is craft.
    0:24:10 He’s like, Hey, I could do a better job than this.
    0:24:11 He starts using higher end steel.
    0:24:14 And now he sells what it used to cost 75 cents.
    0:24:18 Cause it was differentiated for $4 more than four X.
    0:24:20 What, what the market is used to paying.
    0:24:25 And he wound up sealing up like 80 to 90% market share because his was so much better.
    0:24:29 So they, if they feel that the, they’re not starting companies just to start companies,
    0:24:31 they’re starting companies to make products.
    0:24:33 And so therefore they’re not going to make a product.
    0:24:34 If somebody else is already doing that.
    0:24:36 No one made the products that Steve Jobs made.
    0:24:38 No one made the products that James Dyson made.
    0:24:40 No one made the products that Yvonne Chouinard made.
    0:24:43 And I talked to founders all the time and even podcasters.
    0:24:46 And I’m like, man, why are it, especially in, in, in our trade.
    0:24:48 It’s like, why aren’t podcasters thinking more about differentiation?
    0:24:51 When I started my podcast in 2016, one, I thought it was too late.
    0:24:51 Right.
    0:24:53 It was like, Oh my God, I missed the boat.
    0:24:55 But then I looked around and I was like, what is everybody doing?
    0:24:56 Everybody’s doing the same thing.
    0:24:58 It’s like two people, one person interviewing another.
    0:25:01 This is why my first million first came on my radar.
    0:25:04 When I came on your podcast two years ago, I mentioned that I listened to over a hundred
    0:25:05 hours of it because it was truly differentiated.
    0:25:08 It’s like two guys have great chemistry.
    0:25:08 They’re funny.
    0:25:09 They’re both entrepreneurs.
    0:25:13 And sometimes they’re going to just shoot the shit and talk about ideas and brainstorm.
    0:25:14 Sometimes they’ll bring people in.
    0:25:16 Like it was a very unique format.
    0:25:18 You’ve seen since then, obviously, because the success of the show, like what happens?
    0:25:22 Like you have a bunch of people trying to do it and then none of them achieve the same
    0:25:25 success because they’re not, first of all, they’re, they’re not, they’re the copiers.
    0:25:28 They’re not the ones that actually came up with the format and came up with the idea.
    0:25:34 So one thing I would just say is it’s like, if the product already exists, I would only make
    0:25:37 it if you see that there’s a giant hole and a way to like make it better.
    0:25:39 In the case of James Dyson, there’s everybody had vacuum cleaner.
    0:25:41 They were all crappy compared to his.
    0:25:45 I paid, listen, you can go on Amazon right now and buy a vacuum cleaner for 40 bucks.
    0:25:46 I have a Dyson, it was $600.
    0:25:48 It’s literally the best.
    0:25:49 It’s the best.
    0:25:55 Do you think that there’s a common theme amongst, so everyone, most, most of the people you’ve
    0:26:01 named and maybe most of the people you cover on Founders, they’re creating higher end products
    0:26:04 where the margins are probably a bit higher.
    0:26:14 So I have a $600 Dyson, I have, you know, Patagonia now is more mid-tier maybe, but you’ve covered
    0:26:19 a lot of, you know, luxury brands and I think that a lot of like LVMH, like luxury brands
    0:26:22 tend to be the biggest and best businesses, it appears.
    0:26:22 Yeah.
    0:26:28 Is there a commonality of you being different and thus being able to charge more and profit
    0:26:28 more?
    0:26:34 I don’t, like the one person, if you ask like my own personal Mount Rushmore of like
    0:26:37 history’s greatest entrepreneurs is they actually had like, uh, some of them obviously have big
    0:26:38 margins like Apple, right?
    0:26:42 But then like, think of Sam Walton, like Sam Walton had the tiniest margins.
    0:26:43 Why?
    0:26:47 Because like his idea was like, Hey, I’m going to be totally committed to this one simple
    0:26:48 idea, which is like everyday low price.
    0:26:50 And so the margins are small.
    0:26:52 Raising Cane is one of my favorite entrepreneurs.
    0:26:54 His margins like less than 10%.
    0:27:00 So yeah, I don’t, I think these ideas can work for, it really just depends on the industry
    0:27:00 and the business.
    0:27:03 But like you see them appear over and over again, whether it’s a high margin business, a
    0:27:08 low margin business, if it’s physical goods, if it’s luxury goods, if it’s software, it’s
    0:27:10 just like kind of the same personality type over and over again.
    0:27:16 I’m going to combine the last two, which is this, the, the first of the two was they wouldn’t
    0:27:17 sell at any price.
    0:27:23 And this is the second one, their exit strategy is death, which I love.
    0:27:25 I absolutely love.
    0:27:28 Is this particularly with AI?
    0:27:31 I don’t know if you’ve seen, I know you’re not like with it when it cut, because you’re
    0:27:32 so focused.
    0:27:35 Like you, I think you’ve said, you don’t pay attention to the news.
    0:27:36 You don’t pay attention to social media too much.
    0:27:39 There’s this thing called the vibe coding.
    0:27:40 Have you seen vibe coding?
    0:27:41 I’ve seen that.
    0:27:41 Yes.
    0:27:41 Yeah.
    0:27:47 So it’s like young kids of which we’ve had a few of them on who in a matter of six months
    0:27:53 can go from zero to a million a month in revenue because it’s so fast and easy to make apps.
    0:27:54 Yeah.
    0:28:00 New York City founders, if you’ve listened to my first million before, you know, I’ve got
    0:28:04 this company called Hampton and Hampton is a community for founders and CEOs.
    0:28:08 A lot of the stories and ideas that I get for this podcast, I actually got it from people
    0:28:10 who I met in Hampton.
    0:28:12 We have this big community of a thousand plus people and it’s amazing.
    0:28:17 But the main part is this eight person core group that becomes your board of advisors for
    0:28:18 your life and for your business.
    0:28:19 And it’s life changing.
    0:28:26 Now to the folks in New York City, I’m building a in real life core group in New York City.
    0:28:30 And so if you meet one of the following criteria, your business either does 3 million in revenue
    0:28:35 or you’ve raised 3 million in funding, or you’ve started and sold a company for at least
    0:28:37 $10 million, then you are eligible to apply.
    0:28:40 So go to joinhampton.com and apply.
    0:28:43 I’m going to be reviewing all of the applications myself.
    0:28:45 So put that you heard about this on MFM.
    0:28:47 So I know to give you a little extra love.
    0:28:48 Now back to the show.
    0:28:56 Do you think that people today are thinking shorter term than before or has there always
    0:29:01 been a gap of a very few amount of people are willing to think long term versus short term?
    0:29:02 I think both.
    0:29:06 I think, yeah, undoubtedly more larger percentage of humanity is thinking short term and that
    0:29:08 we’ve always as a species been wired to be short term.
    0:29:12 Jeff Bezos has a great idea of this is why he would be constantly willing to have a longer
    0:29:13 term view.
    0:29:17 His point was that like, if you’re planning on a year, if you’re investing in a product
    0:29:21 that may not, you know, reap any benefits over a year, you have a lot of competition.
    0:29:23 Five years, less competition.
    0:29:24 Ten years, no competition.
    0:29:27 Like just nobody is thinking that long term.
    0:29:29 So if we have a long, I think he calls it long term orientation.
    0:29:32 If we have a long term orientation, then I want to do that because we just have by default,
    0:29:33 by sheer numbers.
    0:29:35 I have less amount of competitors.
    0:29:36 Now I need to back up.
    0:29:40 I am only interested in people that do things for a long term and I’m interested in your
    0:29:40 last business.
    0:29:45 I am not interested in your, you know, your startup, your first business.
    0:29:49 In many cases, what I’m interested in is like, what is the thing that is going to like the
    0:29:53 reason I become so close with the founders of ramp is because we have this deep partnership.
    0:29:55 It’s like one of the things I love is I talked to Kareem.
    0:29:56 I’m actually seeing him tonight.
    0:30:00 Who’s the co-founder and CTO of ramp and one of the most brilliant technical minds that I
    0:30:04 know, and one of the things way before we became friends, way before we became partners,
    0:30:08 he’s just like ramps the last, my last business.
    0:30:13 Like, like this is, I have all, you know, 98, 99% of my net worth into it.
    0:30:15 I spent all my days.
    0:30:16 I’m not thinking about anything else.
    0:30:17 Like, that’s what I’m very interested in.
    0:30:21 And many cases to get to that last business, you usually have to start.
    0:30:23 Kareem had already started, start and sold a company.
    0:30:25 Like usually you have to go through a ton.
    0:30:29 It’s very weird for like the Mark Zuckerbergs, the Michael Dells, you know, even Steve Jobs,
    0:30:32 like just to be your, for your first company, to be your last company.
    0:30:34 Which is what I had, I think.
    0:30:40 And I did it because I saw a theme that a lot of the people who had, who I had admired had
    0:30:44 a hit in their twenties or thirties that allowed them to think longer term.
    0:30:46 That is key, right?
    0:30:50 One, I think it’s a mistake if you ever sell your best idea, whether you have money or not.
    0:30:51 So never sell your best idea.
    0:30:56 But in, in the case you’re describing, it’s like, if you can relieve, you know, financial
    0:30:58 pressure, me and you grew up with financial pressure.
    0:30:59 It feels.
    0:31:00 And it’s real.
    0:31:02 Like it’s, it destroys you.
    0:31:03 You can’t sleep.
    0:31:07 There are people who can overcome and just go all in at a young age.
    0:31:13 In general, it seems it’s easier when you have a wealthy parent or when you have some
    0:31:16 type of, you don’t need to worry about rent for three or four years.
    0:31:19 That, that is, it is easier that way.
    0:31:23 So, so to get that, like, Hey, I’m not going to have to worry about feeding, taking care of
    0:31:27 my wife, my kids, feeding myself and give yourself a room to breathe.
    0:31:30 And then you’re able to step back and be like, here’s the thing.
    0:31:31 A lot of this is just self-exploration.
    0:31:36 Like, dude, I know myself so much better now than I did think about when you’re like,
    0:31:38 you’re supposed to be picking your career when you’re in high school.
    0:31:40 Cause then you got to figure out what you’re going to major.
    0:31:41 And it’s like the stupidest thing ever.
    0:31:44 Like nobody, if you’re the same person, you’re at 18, that’s very bizarre.
    0:31:50 And so like, I just think part of picking a successful company and a successful career
    0:31:53 you can do for a long period of time is like, you have to go through this exploration of who
    0:31:54 you are as a person and what your true interests are.
    0:31:56 The problem is with humans.
    0:31:58 Like we think, Oh, like vibe coding is really cool.
    0:32:02 I like these kids are making money, but eventually through all these
    0:32:06 experiments, they might discover what they actually, you know, truly want to dedicate
    0:32:07 their lives to.
    0:32:09 So I think it’s like an overall good thing.
    0:32:14 But yeah, I think the advantage that if you, as an entrepreneur, as a podcaster, as a writer,
    0:32:17 as an athlete, whatever the case is, like, if you can think a lot, you just have a massive
    0:32:18 advantage.
    0:32:20 If you could just have a longer term perspective than other people.
    0:32:24 And this is the important thing is like, when I’m able to choose what I work on, I’m not
    0:32:28 worried about what like my downloads today or like my audience size today.
    0:32:31 It’s just like, as long as I do this forever, right?
    0:32:34 And I keep focusing on adding value to other people’s lives because money comes out of digital
    0:32:34 service.
    0:32:39 Then I’ll get, as long as I wake up every day, read a biography of history’s greatest entrepreneurs
    0:32:41 and sit down once a week and talk about what I learned and do that forever.
    0:32:43 I’ll let the score take of itself.
    0:32:44 The chips will fall where it is.
    0:32:46 Like I don’t want to deserve.
    0:32:52 I don’t want the listener to think long term means it’s, it’s okay if I don’t kick ass
    0:32:52 today.
    0:32:58 And a lot of people will justify this and say, well, it’s a marathon, not a sprint.
    0:33:06 And to them, I say, yeah, but have you ever ran like a hundred meters at the world record
    0:33:06 marathon pace?
    0:33:08 It’s going to feel like a sprint to you.
    0:33:13 Like you have to be able to run fast for a long period of time.
    0:33:20 And what I, and what, and what I mean by that is that doesn’t excuse day to day, um, lack
    0:33:20 of urgency.
    0:33:26 You still need to be, uh, impatient on a daily level, but patient on an annual level.
    0:33:33 Additionally, can you tell me the people who thought long term, they were still, maybe you
    0:33:38 can give me examples, but that doesn’t mean that they were broke five or 10 years into starting
    0:33:42 their company or that they didn’t have traction or did they, am I wrong?
    0:33:47 So the, the, to like close the loop on what you just said, I agree completely.
    0:33:50 If you think of like, there’s not very many entrepreneurs that had a longer term perspective
    0:33:54 than Jeff Bezos and his line about this was like, yeah, we have longterm, but like, we’re
    0:33:57 going to take step-by-step ferociously was his motto.
    0:34:00 Step-by-step ferociously, not like, oh, we’re going to lollygag.
    0:34:03 It’s like, no, no, no, I’m fine being, you know, you know, we’re going to be the
    0:34:07 company we want 10, 15 years from now, but every day for the next 10 to 15 years, like
    0:34:09 we’re pushing the pace and we’re doing as much as we can.
    0:34:14 Um, people that were broke five or 10 years in, uh, James Dyson, for sure.
    0:34:20 He was literally going to sleep covered in dirt because he’s trying to build a vacuum cleaner
    0:34:25 for the entire time going, going, going inside, crying himself to sleep as his kids are small.
    0:34:27 And then his kids are completely grown up.
    0:34:28 He was in massive amounts of debt.
    0:34:30 He couldn’t find no one.
    0:34:33 The reason he owns a hundred percent of his companies, cause no one would, uh, would actually,
    0:34:36 want the equity, which is hilarious considering how valuable it is now.
    0:34:39 But also he was like, uh, he had second loans out on his, on his, his second mortgage on his
    0:34:40 home.
    0:34:41 He was crying himself to sleep.
    0:34:43 So he was, he was nearly bankrupt.
    0:34:44 He was, oh yeah, yeah.
    0:34:48 For, for, and if it’s not the full 14 years, it was a good chunk because then he started licensing
    0:34:49 it.
    0:34:52 He had, he had some small wins where he could actually pay his bills, but he was not like
    0:34:53 a wealthy man.
    0:34:58 Steve Jobs, rich from the get-go, you know, app, he builds the first app on his garage.
    0:35:02 Four years later, he’s worth a hundred million dollars and the company’s public.
    0:35:03 It looked like it was pretty crazy.
    0:35:06 Von Chouinard broke for an excessively long period of time.
    0:35:10 Like there isn’t like a, you know, it just, it’s a case by case basis.
    0:35:12 Jeff Bezos already wealthy.
    0:35:14 He worked for this hedge fund in New York called D.E.
    0:35:14 Shaw.
    0:35:19 And he quit that and gave up a huge bonus to move, uh, to Seattle.
    0:35:21 But he was already, you know, able to live in Manhattan.
    0:35:22 He was working for a billionaire.
    0:35:24 Sam Walton.
    0:35:25 Now here’s another idea.
    0:35:29 By the way, I think Amazon had like a hundred million in sales, like four years in or something.
    0:35:31 Super fast, super fast.
    0:35:34 He was like, by the time he was 30, so he starts the company at 30.
    0:35:35 I think by 35, he’s a billionaire.
    0:35:41 I tracked him on this when I like had my, uh, I had this sheet where I tracked probably 300
    0:35:46 people and I had timelines for each of them of when they were born, when they started the
    0:35:50 thing that allowed them to be a little bit financially free when that period ended.
    0:35:56 And then when they started the thing that made them huge and he, uh, started Amazon at 32
    0:36:01 and between the ages of like 24 or whenever you graduate college to 32, presumably he was
    0:36:06 making some amount of money, like the equivalent of 250 to $500,000 a year today.
    0:36:07 For sure.
    0:36:07 For sure.
    0:36:13 Sam Walton had his first, this is an interesting thing because there is an idea, uh, a principle
    0:36:16 I’ve noticed is like go slow now so you can go faster later.
    0:36:22 And what I mean by that is like Sam Walton, greatest retailer of all time, undoubtedly he
    0:36:24 had one store for five years.
    0:36:29 And so he was obsessively learning everything he possibly could about retail, doing all these
    0:36:29 experiments.
    0:36:33 And so then you fast forward, you know, one store for five years, then you fast forward,
    0:36:35 let’s say 25 years into his career.
    0:36:37 He has the idea.
    0:36:39 He’s already has Walmart, but he’s like, Hey, he meets this guy named Sol Price.
    0:36:40 So I’ve done episodes.
    0:36:41 How many years?
    0:36:42 Do you say 25?
    0:36:44 Well, let’s say 25 years into his career, right?
    0:36:48 So the first five years of his career, it’s one store, 25 years in, let’s say around
    0:36:53 there, he’s got Walmart, but then he has this idea for Sam’s Club, which he got, he took from
    0:36:53 other people.
    0:36:57 He took from this guy named Sol Price, who’s, uh, he came up with the warehouse club idea.
    0:37:02 Uh, the founder of Costco was Sol Price’s mentee when he was like, uh, Jim Senegal was like
    0:37:04 18 working for a Sol Price.
    0:37:05 That’s where he got the idea for Costco.
    0:37:06 Sam Walton sees that.
    0:37:07 He’s like, Oh, this is a great idea.
    0:37:07 I’m going to do it immediately.
    0:37:12 So 25 years into his career, he didn’t have to stick with one store for five years.
    0:37:16 So when he launched Sam’s Club within the first five years, he gets to like 105 stores and
    0:37:18 like $7 billion in revenue.
    0:37:19 Same period.
    0:37:25 When he started out, he can only master one tiny little store in Arkansas, but your skillset
    0:37:27 and your resources and everything compounds.
    0:37:28 That’s the point.
    0:37:34 Todd Graves talks about, you know, I think he, by the time he gets like, he’s 10, the raising
    0:37:34 Cain’s guy.
    0:37:36 He, I think he’s 10 to 12 years into his career.
    0:37:38 He’s got 28 stores.
    0:37:39 Sounds like a lot, right?
    0:37:44 He opens like 150 stores a year right now, or a hundred between a hundred and 150 stores
    0:37:45 a year.
    0:37:47 Go slow at the beginning to go faster later.
    0:37:49 He’s learning and he’s going to apply that.
    0:37:53 This is the important thing about not jumping from business to business to business, because
    0:37:56 if you jump from business to business, all you’re doing is interrupting and compounding.
    0:38:02 Was it clear a lot of these, you know, the world’s greatest entrepreneurs, was it clear
    0:38:06 that their TAM was big enough to achieve their ambition?
    0:38:08 No, absolutely not.
    0:38:08 No.
    0:38:13 Like, for example, you’d be like, look, this chicken finger thing, that’s maybe silly, but
    0:38:14 I guess McDonald’s is huge.
    0:38:16 I guess you could be kind of like McDonald’s.
    0:38:19 I think he’s, if he did think of anything, he thought of In-N-Out.
    0:38:21 In-N-Out was found in 1948.
    0:38:26 If you look at In-N-Out’s menu, it looks like Todd Graves.
    0:38:30 There’s other people before him, but it’s like, to me, Todd Graves is just Harry Snyder,
    0:38:34 reincarnated, who was the founder of In-N-Out, but instead of doing burgers, he does chicken
    0:38:34 fingers.
    0:38:38 But no, like, I just went over this because I’m going through the Michael Dell episode
    0:38:38 right now.
    0:38:40 Like, there’s just like, no way.
    0:38:44 Like, you knew computers were, like, most people hadn’t even seen a computer.
    0:38:45 And like, he was just completely obsessed with it.
    0:38:48 So there’s no way he could have predicted the financial success he was going to have and
    0:38:50 how big the market could actually get.
    0:38:52 You know, he started with Dell with $1,000?
    0:38:53 No.
    0:38:54 No venture capital, $1,000.
    0:38:59 And his main competitor was Compaq, who started with, like, $25 million of venture capital.
    0:39:01 And Michael Dell is super competitive, but nice.
    0:39:03 The book’s called Play Nice and Win.
    0:39:04 Play Nice, But Win.
    0:39:06 But he’s like, he’s constantly contrasting.
    0:39:07 He’s like, I started with $1,000.
    0:39:08 They started with $25 million.
    0:39:09 I’m kicking their ass.
    0:39:10 It’s really funny.
    0:39:16 And Dell would tell you that having the constraints of limited capital was really good at the
    0:39:20 beginning because it forced him to innovate in a way that you wouldn’t if you had money.
    0:39:21 And I was like, oh, wow, that’s interesting.
    0:39:23 So I go and pull my highlights from Sam Walton.
    0:39:24 Sam Walton said the same thing.
    0:39:26 Kmart existed before Walmart.
    0:39:28 Kmart was dominating the big cities.
    0:39:29 Because if you’re going to start retail, where are you going to go?
    0:39:30 You’re going to go to Chicago.
    0:39:30 You’re going to New York.
    0:39:31 You’re going to go to all those other places.
    0:39:32 So he’s like, well, I can’t go there.
    0:39:33 I don’t have any money.
    0:39:36 So he starts going in these little towns in rural Arkansas.
    0:39:38 And what he learned, he goes, oh, constraints are your friend.
    0:39:43 Because if we were better capitalized, I would have never went out into these tiny little
    0:39:44 communities.
    0:39:48 And what I discovered is in these tiny little communities, there’s far, far more business
    0:39:50 than we could have ever predicted.
    0:39:53 Perfect example to your question.
    0:39:55 You’re the man, David.
    0:39:57 I appreciate you doing this.
    0:40:01 I could just like, I think the listener will notice this is probably the podcast that I’ve
    0:40:05 spoken the least amount of all 700.
    0:40:11 I’ve listened to hundreds of your episodes.
    0:40:12 I think you’re at like, what, 400?
    0:40:14 I think I’ve listened to half of them now.
    0:40:15 I appreciate that.
    0:40:16 I appreciate you.
    0:40:17 That’s it.
    0:40:17 That’s the pod.
    0:40:20 I feel like I can rule the world.
    0:40:22 I know I could be what I want to.
    0:40:25 I put my all in it like no days off.
    0:40:28 On the road, let’s travel, never looking back.

    Help us win a Webby for BEST CREATOR and BEST VIDEO SERIES

    Episode 698: Sam Parr ( https://x.com/theSamParr ) talks to David Senra ( https://x.com/FoundersPodcast ) about what qualities make an anti-business billionaire. 

    Show Notes: 

    (0:00) High Level of Disagreeableness

    (9:02) Extreme Self-Confidence

    (12:55) Product Quality Obsessed

    (18:37) Retention of Total Control

    (27:28) Exit Strategy is Death

    Links:

    • Play Nice But Win – https://tinyurl.com/uuwumk8d 

    • Creative Selection – https://tinyurl.com/bdz8f9ae 

    • Founders Podcast – https://www.founderspodcast.com/

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    • Hampton – https://www.joinhampton.com/

    • Ideation Bootcamp – https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/

    • Copy That – https://copythat.com

    • Hampton Wealth Survey – https://joinhampton.com/wealth

    • Sam’s List – http://samslist.co/

    My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

  • 667: 10+ Side Hustle Trends for 2025

    AI transcript
    0:00:03 Here are 10 side hustle trends for 2025.
    0:00:05 What’s up, what’s up, Nick O’Loper here.
    0:00:07 Welcome to the side hustle show
    0:00:09 because your nine to five may make you a living,
    0:00:11 but your five to nine makes you alive.
    0:00:14 Today, we’re tackling some side hustle trends
    0:00:16 that you should be aware of
    0:00:18 because they might impact what business you start
    0:00:20 and how you think about scaling it.
    0:00:22 And to help me out with these is a longtime friend
    0:00:24 and friend of the show.
    0:00:25 He’s been covering online side hustles
    0:00:29 even longer than I have from nichepursuits.com.
    0:00:31 So, Spencer Hans, welcome back to the side hustle show.
    0:00:33 Nick, it’s great to be here.
    0:00:36 Long time listener, follower of the show.
    0:00:39 And of course, we’ve connected a couple of times in person.
    0:00:41 It’s always fun to talk about side hustles,
    0:00:43 niche projects, if you will.
    0:00:45 So yeah, really excited to jump in.
    0:00:46 Yes, a couple old timers here.
    0:00:48 We’ll go for it.
    0:00:52 So almost all of our content starts from the question,
    0:00:53 how do I make extra money?
    0:00:56 And to answer that, I think it’s important to know
    0:00:58 where the market’s been,
    0:00:59 where it is today,
    0:01:01 and maybe where you see it potentially going.
    0:01:03 So that’s our goal for today.
    0:01:04 10 or maybe more.
    0:01:06 We’ll see what happens as we get going.
    0:01:08 10 observations from a couple,
    0:01:10 like we said, a couple of old guys
    0:01:11 that you can use, hopefully,
    0:01:12 to make some more money this year.
    0:01:15 And trend number one that I want to bring up
    0:01:18 is for the last year and a half or so,
    0:01:19 ever since this helpful content update,
    0:01:21 is what I’m going to call
    0:01:23 the shrinking SEO landscape.
    0:01:24 Rand Fishkin has called it
    0:01:26 zero-click publishing.
    0:01:27 But just in the search results,
    0:01:30 you see more AI answers,
    0:01:31 AI snippets,
    0:01:32 you see more Reddit,
    0:01:33 you see more user-generated content,
    0:01:38 you see these huge image card blocks.
    0:01:40 Like SideHustleNation used to rank
    0:01:42 for a lot of listicle type of content.
    0:01:44 But now this huge chunk of the page
    0:01:44 is getting like,
    0:01:46 well, we’ll just parse out
    0:01:47 all the items on your list
    0:01:48 and put a little image by it.
    0:01:50 like, well, it pushes everything else
    0:01:52 lower down on the page.
    0:01:53 You know, what are you seeing
    0:01:54 with niche pursuits?
    0:01:55 What are you seeing with publishers
    0:01:56 trying to combat
    0:01:58 this shrinking piece of the pie?
    0:02:00 Plus, user behavior changing.
    0:02:02 Like I know from my own personal experience,
    0:02:04 like I find myself using ChatGPT
    0:02:04 as a search engine
    0:02:06 or as an answer engine, rather,
    0:02:08 more often than Google these days.
    0:02:10 Yeah, quickly changing landscape.
    0:02:12 A lot is going on in the SEO world.
    0:02:14 I think you hit on that
    0:02:15 sort of the zero-click landscape
    0:02:17 that we’re entering in.
    0:02:18 I’ve seen a lot of publishers
    0:02:21 that, yeah, their answers
    0:02:23 are being taken by those AI overviews
    0:02:25 that Google is putting out.
    0:02:26 Not only has there been
    0:02:28 a lot of updates, right?
    0:02:29 You mentioned the helpful content update,
    0:02:31 but a lot of Google core updates
    0:02:33 that feel like a lot of small publishers
    0:02:36 have been impacted heavily with, right?
    0:02:38 But even some large publishers
    0:02:40 I’ve talked with privately with
    0:02:43 that their rankings in Google
    0:02:44 haven’t changed.
    0:02:45 Like they still rank number one
    0:02:47 for the term or number two
    0:02:48 for the term, right?
    0:02:49 That they originally ranked for.
    0:02:51 But because there’s now
    0:02:52 this AI overview,
    0:02:55 they don’t get as many clicks, right?
    0:02:57 So the rankings technically
    0:02:58 haven’t changed.
    0:02:59 They still are the number one
    0:03:01 organic result for whatever,
    0:03:03 but they’re getting less clicks
    0:03:04 because people now just read
    0:03:06 that AI overview, right?
    0:03:06 Yeah.
    0:03:08 And so there’s that,
    0:03:10 that Google has changed.
    0:03:11 And then the other thing,
    0:03:13 I’m in the same boat with you,
    0:03:14 and I think a lot of people are,
    0:03:16 like I am starting to use
    0:03:18 ChatGPT a lot more, right?
    0:03:20 Because it remembers
    0:03:21 what I searched previously.
    0:03:22 Like I’ll say,
    0:03:23 hey, I’m starting a little
    0:03:25 side hustle on this.
    0:03:26 And then I might ask it
    0:03:27 a series of questions like,
    0:03:28 what do I need to get started?
    0:03:30 And then I might ask,
    0:03:31 you know, later,
    0:03:32 what products should I buy
    0:03:34 to help me with that, right?
    0:03:35 And it’s just like
    0:03:36 this ongoing thing
    0:03:38 that you don’t really do
    0:03:39 on Google very well.
    0:03:40 You’d have to type out
    0:03:41 like two paragraphs
    0:03:42 to do it.
    0:03:43 ChatGPT just remembers
    0:03:45 your previous searches.
    0:03:46 Yeah, you can give it,
    0:03:46 you can provide it
    0:03:47 a lot more context,
    0:03:48 a lot more detail.
    0:03:49 We’re like, hey,
    0:03:50 we’re visiting Japan
    0:03:52 with two boys.
    0:03:54 They’re seven and nine.
    0:03:55 You know, what do you recommend
    0:03:56 for this two-week itinerary?
    0:03:57 And it like spits out
    0:03:58 this detailed day-by-day thing
    0:03:59 where it’s like,
    0:04:00 ah, you know,
    0:04:01 but it’s frustrating
    0:04:03 from the content creator perspective
    0:04:04 because somebody had
    0:04:04 to create that
    0:04:05 for it to crawl.
    0:04:06 And it’s like,
    0:04:07 well, where are they,
    0:04:09 if their business model
    0:04:10 was monetizing
    0:04:11 with ad revenue
    0:04:12 or affiliate clicks,
    0:04:14 like where are they left?
    0:04:14 And what’s the incentive
    0:04:16 to keep creating this content
    0:04:18 for the AI to chew on?
    0:04:18 Like, where does it,
    0:04:20 where does it go?
    0:04:21 Like for a time
    0:04:24 and I’m still a little bit torn,
    0:04:25 like there’s still got to be
    0:04:26 some value
    0:04:27 in being a primary source,
    0:04:28 like scooping a story,
    0:04:29 you know,
    0:04:32 providing firsthand experience
    0:04:33 and review content.
    0:04:34 but if it ends up
    0:04:35 just getting aggregated
    0:04:36 and scraped
    0:04:37 and re-summarized,
    0:04:38 ah, it’s like,
    0:04:39 well, I don’t know,
    0:04:41 why are we doing this?
    0:04:43 It’s extremely frustrating,
    0:04:43 right,
    0:04:45 to the content creator
    0:04:46 because you’re exactly right.
    0:04:47 Somebody had to create
    0:04:48 all those different
    0:04:50 itineraries to Japan,
    0:04:50 right,
    0:04:51 that ChatGPT
    0:04:52 had to learn on,
    0:04:53 right?
    0:04:54 so we as publishers
    0:04:55 over the last,
    0:04:56 you know,
    0:04:57 however long you’ve been publishing
    0:04:58 have been creating
    0:04:59 and researching
    0:05:00 and a lot of people
    0:05:01 have been traveling
    0:05:01 to these locations
    0:05:02 and taking pictures
    0:05:04 and, you know,
    0:05:05 travel bloggers in particular
    0:05:06 have been hit really hard,
    0:05:08 food bloggers in particular
    0:05:09 have been hit really hard,
    0:05:10 right,
    0:05:11 where AI can now just spit out
    0:05:13 the recipe for you,
    0:05:14 that sort of thing
    0:05:15 and so where does that leave
    0:05:16 publishers?
    0:05:17 I don’t know
    0:05:17 the right answer,
    0:05:18 you know,
    0:05:19 going forward
    0:05:20 other than we’re in this
    0:05:22 really big shift,
    0:05:24 this big transition phase
    0:05:25 of,
    0:05:25 boy,
    0:05:27 you either need to provide
    0:05:28 really unique content
    0:05:29 or,
    0:05:30 like you said,
    0:05:31 maybe scooping
    0:05:32 truly groundbreaking stories
    0:05:34 or your writing
    0:05:35 is just so fascinating
    0:05:37 that you can build
    0:05:37 an audience,
    0:05:38 you have an email list,
    0:05:41 people truly following you
    0:05:42 for your personality
    0:05:43 or for your writing abilities
    0:05:45 or for whatever it is
    0:05:46 that makes you unique
    0:05:48 so building an audience
    0:05:49 is just becoming
    0:05:51 so important,
    0:05:52 right,
    0:05:53 because if you’re just there
    0:05:54 for that transactional query
    0:05:56 and you are making money
    0:05:57 with ads in the past,
    0:05:59 that may be not
    0:06:01 a very strong
    0:06:02 business going forward.
    0:06:03 Yeah,
    0:06:05 it’s a challenging
    0:06:06 and changing landscape
    0:06:07 and maybe that brings us
    0:06:09 to trend number two
    0:06:12 in light of the SEO challenges
    0:06:13 or the search traffic challenge
    0:06:14 challenges.
    0:06:15 Like I’m still,
    0:06:16 you know,
    0:06:17 maybe this is old school,
    0:06:17 but like I still think
    0:06:18 you ought to have
    0:06:19 a website as your home base,
    0:06:20 something you truly do
    0:06:22 own and control.
    0:06:23 But we’ve seen the shift
    0:06:24 towards what we might call
    0:06:26 social first audience building
    0:06:28 or social first publishing
    0:06:29 where I’m going to go out
    0:06:31 into Instagram,
    0:06:32 TikTok,
    0:06:33 YouTube,
    0:06:33 LinkedIn,
    0:06:34 Twitter,
    0:06:35 and like try and bring people
    0:06:37 back into my world
    0:06:38 or try and go where,
    0:06:38 you know,
    0:06:39 go where my audience
    0:06:40 already is
    0:06:41 and try and create content,
    0:06:42 build up reputation,
    0:06:43 authority on whatever topic
    0:06:45 it is on these other platforms.
    0:06:46 And then,
    0:06:47 you know,
    0:06:48 question mark,
    0:06:49 question mark,
    0:06:49 question mark,
    0:06:50 step three,
    0:06:51 monetize a profit.
    0:06:51 Right.
    0:06:52 It’s like,
    0:06:52 it’s not,
    0:06:54 it’s not as simple
    0:06:54 as it was,
    0:06:54 you know,
    0:06:56 just pasting in an AdSense
    0:06:57 or a Mediavine script
    0:06:58 and saying,
    0:06:58 well,
    0:06:59 now I get page views,
    0:06:59 so I got,
    0:07:00 I got revenue.
    0:07:00 Right.
    0:07:01 Yeah,
    0:07:02 exactly right.
    0:07:02 For,
    0:07:04 for a long time in particular,
    0:07:04 as you know,
    0:07:06 we talk about bloggers
    0:07:07 and blogging a lot,
    0:07:08 right?
    0:07:09 The model was like,
    0:07:09 okay,
    0:07:10 get this organic traffic
    0:07:11 from Google
    0:07:12 and now that pie is shrinking.
    0:07:15 I think a lot of content creators
    0:07:17 are trying to get that organic traffic,
    0:07:18 right,
    0:07:20 to avoid having to do paid media,
    0:07:21 but they’re doing it,
    0:07:22 like you said,
    0:07:22 Instagram,
    0:07:23 TikTok,
    0:07:24 Twitter,
    0:07:25 LinkedIn,
    0:07:26 pick your platform,
    0:07:27 YouTube,
    0:07:28 right,
    0:07:29 is a big one.
    0:07:30 And then what are they doing
    0:07:31 with that audience?
    0:07:32 It all just depends.
    0:07:34 But I agree that,
    0:07:35 hey,
    0:07:36 that should be maybe
    0:07:38 one arrow in your quiver
    0:07:39 of like,
    0:07:39 okay,
    0:07:41 what’s the organic reach
    0:07:42 that I can get?
    0:07:43 Where am I publishing my content?
    0:07:45 Pick a platform,
    0:07:45 whatever it is,
    0:07:46 Instagram,
    0:07:46 YouTube.
    0:07:47 Yeah,
    0:07:48 and I would probably say
    0:07:49 pick one to start with
    0:07:51 and like study it,
    0:07:51 learn it,
    0:07:51 own it,
    0:07:53 and go deep,
    0:07:53 you know,
    0:07:54 simplify first,
    0:07:54 diversify second.
    0:07:56 But then do lead them
    0:07:57 to a website
    0:07:58 or to an email list
    0:08:00 or some central hub
    0:08:00 where,
    0:08:01 hey,
    0:08:02 you interact
    0:08:03 with your audience
    0:08:04 on a more intimate
    0:08:05 level.
    0:08:05 A lot of businesses
    0:08:06 do that well
    0:08:08 and it’s just,
    0:08:09 I used to say,
    0:08:10 hey,
    0:08:11 go to Google
    0:08:12 and get that organic reach
    0:08:12 but maybe,
    0:08:13 yeah,
    0:08:13 it is more
    0:08:15 a social approach.
    0:08:16 I think that’s,
    0:08:17 I’m seeing that a lot.
    0:08:19 I think it’s going to lead
    0:08:20 to more thoughtful
    0:08:21 or more creative
    0:08:23 monetization strategies
    0:08:24 where it’s like
    0:08:25 if the game plan
    0:08:26 was to just,
    0:08:27 you know,
    0:08:28 blanket the web
    0:08:29 like trying to target,
    0:08:29 you know,
    0:08:30 long tail search queries,
    0:08:31 you’re going to have to have
    0:08:32 a more in-depth
    0:08:33 knowledge base
    0:08:34 around that topic
    0:08:35 to be able to
    0:08:37 monetize with a,
    0:08:38 you know,
    0:08:39 coaching or consulting program.
    0:08:40 Like,
    0:08:41 somebody’s specific
    0:08:41 probably going to have to go
    0:08:43 up market in a way
    0:08:44 if the bottom end
    0:08:45 of that information-based
    0:08:47 search traffic
    0:08:48 is just going to get
    0:08:48 eaten by AI.
    0:08:49 Yeah.
    0:08:50 And,
    0:08:50 you know,
    0:08:51 one other thing
    0:08:52 for people to consider
    0:08:54 that I’m seeing
    0:08:57 is video-first content
    0:09:00 is a bigger moat,
    0:09:01 right?
    0:09:02 It’s gaining in a lot
    0:09:02 of popularity.
    0:09:04 The platforms,
    0:09:04 TikTok,
    0:09:04 Instagram,
    0:09:05 YouTube,
    0:09:06 right,
    0:09:06 are probably,
    0:09:08 if you’re willing
    0:09:09 and able to get
    0:09:10 in front of the camera,
    0:09:12 create great videos,
    0:09:13 whether it’s short
    0:09:14 or long-form videos,
    0:09:17 that is going to
    0:09:18 have a little bit
    0:09:18 bigger moat
    0:09:19 than if you’re just
    0:09:20 to do written content
    0:09:21 because AI
    0:09:23 can spit out
    0:09:23 written content
    0:09:24 all day long,
    0:09:25 but it hasn’t quite
    0:09:26 gotten to the place
    0:09:27 where it can replicate
    0:09:29 you and I
    0:09:30 quite as well.
    0:09:31 There’s still a moat there.
    0:09:32 If you can do
    0:09:33 video-first content,
    0:09:34 I think you can build
    0:09:35 an audience faster.
    0:09:35 Okay.
    0:09:36 That makes sense.
    0:09:37 You played around
    0:09:39 with any AI-assisted video?
    0:09:39 Like,
    0:09:40 are you doing any
    0:09:40 Hayjin,
    0:09:41 Spencer,
    0:09:41 where it’s like
    0:09:42 your little avatar
    0:09:43 talking,
    0:09:43 on the screen?
    0:09:44 I haven’t gone
    0:09:45 as far as,
    0:09:45 you know,
    0:09:48 my avatar so much.
    0:09:49 AI B-roll,
    0:09:50 you know,
    0:09:51 elements that I can
    0:09:53 add to my videos,
    0:09:54 done some things
    0:09:55 like that,
    0:09:56 or other sort of
    0:09:57 silly B-roll.
    0:09:58 I had some B-roll
    0:09:59 on a YouTube video
    0:10:00 recently where
    0:10:01 I was talking
    0:10:03 to an artificial
    0:10:03 intelligence,
    0:10:05 you know,
    0:10:05 person.
    0:10:06 It was quite obvious
    0:10:07 that they were not real.
    0:10:08 It was sort of
    0:10:09 like an inside B-roll
    0:10:10 joke or whatever.
    0:10:12 so played around
    0:10:13 but not like
    0:10:14 made it a main
    0:10:15 portion of my
    0:10:16 videos at this
    0:10:17 point.
    0:10:17 Yeah,
    0:10:19 video first,
    0:10:20 social first,
    0:10:21 create that
    0:10:23 bigger moat
    0:10:24 where if you have
    0:10:24 that firsthand
    0:10:25 experience,
    0:10:25 like,
    0:10:26 and it’s you
    0:10:26 on camera,
    0:10:27 you’re building
    0:10:28 that relationship
    0:10:29 and trust
    0:10:30 that is a much
    0:10:31 deeper relationship.
    0:10:31 And same thing
    0:10:32 with podcasting,
    0:10:32 like,
    0:10:32 hard to build an
    0:10:33 audience,
    0:10:34 but once you have
    0:10:34 people paying
    0:10:35 attention,
    0:10:35 like,
    0:10:35 really,
    0:10:36 really valuable
    0:10:37 audience,
    0:10:37 especially if
    0:10:37 they’re going
    0:10:38 to spend
    0:10:40 45 minutes a
    0:10:40 week with you
    0:10:41 in their earbuds,
    0:10:41 right?
    0:10:42 You build that
    0:10:43 relationship much
    0:10:44 more powerfully
    0:10:45 than somebody,
    0:10:46 you know,
    0:10:47 Googling something
    0:10:47 and, like,
    0:10:48 skimming a blog
    0:10:48 post for,
    0:10:49 you know,
    0:10:50 90 seconds and
    0:10:51 then they’re on
    0:10:51 to the next
    0:10:51 thing.
    0:10:52 Yep,
    0:10:52 exactly.
    0:10:53 The next one
    0:10:54 on my list,
    0:10:55 it kind of
    0:10:56 relates to this
    0:10:57 video first,
    0:10:58 and maybe we
    0:10:58 could call it,
    0:10:58 you know,
    0:10:59 short form
    0:11:00 videos,
    0:11:01 eating everything,
    0:11:02 like,
    0:11:03 the TikTok-ification
    0:11:04 of the planet,
    0:11:05 but the one
    0:11:06 that comes
    0:11:06 to mind
    0:11:07 is the,
    0:11:08 it’s kind of
    0:11:09 like the,
    0:11:09 I’ll call it
    0:11:10 like the fall
    0:11:10 of the follower
    0:11:11 and the rise
    0:11:12 of the algorithm
    0:11:14 where it no
    0:11:15 longer,
    0:11:16 like,
    0:11:17 I’ll give you
    0:11:17 the example
    0:11:17 of like,
    0:11:18 if I log into
    0:11:19 Facebook or
    0:11:19 Instagram or any
    0:11:20 of these platforms,
    0:11:20 like,
    0:11:21 half of the stuff
    0:11:22 in my feed
    0:11:23 is from accounts
    0:11:24 that I don’t
    0:11:24 follow,
    0:11:25 have never
    0:11:25 followed,
    0:11:25 have no
    0:11:26 relationship with,
    0:11:27 but it’s stuff
    0:11:28 that the algorithm
    0:11:29 thinks I will
    0:11:29 like,
    0:11:31 and it does a
    0:11:31 pretty good job
    0:11:32 of that because
    0:11:32 like,
    0:11:32 for me,
    0:11:33 it’s like a lot
    0:11:33 of,
    0:11:34 you know,
    0:11:34 data visualization
    0:11:35 and maps
    0:11:36 or baseball
    0:11:37 statistics
    0:11:37 because it
    0:11:37 knows,
    0:11:38 it knows I’m
    0:11:39 going to stop
    0:11:39 and like,
    0:11:40 try and figure
    0:11:41 this out.
    0:11:41 Like,
    0:11:42 what is this
    0:11:42 thing trying
    0:11:42 to show me?
    0:11:43 Or on Instagram,
    0:11:44 it’s like a lot
    0:11:44 of like ski
    0:11:45 videos,
    0:11:45 like,
    0:11:45 oh,
    0:11:46 watch this guy
    0:11:46 go over
    0:11:46 some crazy
    0:11:47 jump.
    0:11:48 You have to
    0:11:49 watch the
    0:11:49 landing to see
    0:11:50 if he makes
    0:11:50 it.
    0:11:52 And they know
    0:11:52 it’s going to
    0:11:53 stop the scroll,
    0:11:54 even though I
    0:11:54 don’t follow
    0:11:55 any of these
    0:11:55 accounts.
    0:11:55 It’s like,
    0:11:56 it’s just a
    0:11:57 weird thing.
    0:11:58 So the good
    0:11:59 news is if
    0:11:59 you’re a new
    0:11:59 creator,
    0:12:00 if you create
    0:12:01 something that’s
    0:12:01 compelling,
    0:12:02 you have the
    0:12:02 chance to punch
    0:12:02 above your
    0:12:03 weight class
    0:12:03 and get seen
    0:12:04 by,
    0:12:04 you know,
    0:12:05 more than
    0:12:06 your three
    0:12:06 followers.
    0:12:07 The drawback
    0:12:08 is if you have
    0:12:08 a bit of a
    0:12:08 following,
    0:12:10 you still have
    0:12:10 to play the
    0:12:11 algorithms game.
    0:12:12 And,
    0:12:12 you know,
    0:12:13 unless it’s
    0:12:14 really compelling,
    0:12:14 even the people
    0:12:15 who do follow
    0:12:16 you probably
    0:12:16 not going to
    0:12:16 see your stuff.
    0:12:17 exactly.
    0:12:18 You know,
    0:12:18 on YouTube,
    0:12:19 we’ve always
    0:12:20 accepted this.
    0:12:20 When you go to
    0:12:21 your YouTube
    0:12:21 homepage,
    0:12:22 you expect to
    0:12:23 get recommended
    0:12:24 videos,
    0:12:25 right,
    0:12:26 that most of
    0:12:27 the videos you’re
    0:12:27 seeing in your
    0:12:28 recommendations are
    0:12:29 not channels that
    0:12:30 you’ve subscribed
    0:12:30 to, right?
    0:12:31 From day one,
    0:12:32 we’ve always just
    0:12:33 sort of accepted
    0:12:34 this on YouTube,
    0:12:35 but you’re exactly
    0:12:35 right.
    0:12:36 It’s creeped into
    0:12:37 Facebook,
    0:12:37 Instagram,
    0:12:39 other platforms
    0:12:40 where you go
    0:12:40 through.
    0:12:41 You’re not seeing
    0:12:41 your friends’
    0:12:42 posts anymore.
    0:12:43 You’re seeing,
    0:12:44 you know,
    0:12:45 whatever sort of
    0:12:45 interest the
    0:12:46 algorithm has
    0:12:47 assigned to you.
    0:12:47 And so,
    0:12:48 you know,
    0:12:48 hey,
    0:12:49 good for their
    0:12:50 business,
    0:12:50 I guess.
    0:12:50 It’s maybe
    0:12:52 increasing engagement,
    0:12:53 but you’re exactly
    0:12:54 right that I have
    0:12:55 seen like some
    0:12:56 really small
    0:12:57 Facebook pages,
    0:12:57 for example,
    0:12:59 that they can
    0:12:59 have something
    0:13:00 go absolutely
    0:13:01 viral.
    0:13:01 They only have
    0:13:02 10,000 followers,
    0:13:03 but one of their
    0:13:04 posts gets like
    0:13:06 10 million views,
    0:13:06 right?
    0:13:07 Just because for
    0:13:08 whatever reason,
    0:13:09 it’s triggered this
    0:13:10 algorithm and it
    0:13:10 can get in front of
    0:13:11 a really,
    0:13:12 really large audience.
    0:13:14 So there’s a lot
    0:13:15 of opportunity there
    0:13:16 if you can kind of
    0:13:17 figure out what
    0:13:18 types of content
    0:13:19 work really well
    0:13:19 and you can kind
    0:13:20 of game the
    0:13:21 algorithms a little
    0:13:22 bit on these
    0:13:22 platforms.
    0:13:24 But as a user,
    0:13:25 we may or may not
    0:13:26 love this situation,
    0:13:27 right?
    0:13:27 People call it
    0:13:28 brain rot.
    0:13:28 We’ve got a lot
    0:13:29 of brain rot in
    0:13:31 our feeds that we
    0:13:32 got to get past.
    0:13:33 So, you know,
    0:13:35 it’s, which one
    0:13:36 wins out there?
    0:13:36 I don’t know.
    0:13:37 But then it’s like,
    0:13:38 what’s the benefit
    0:13:39 to the creator?
    0:13:39 Like, okay,
    0:13:40 I got a lot of
    0:13:42 views, but is,
    0:13:43 I mean, is Facebook
    0:13:44 paying these creators
    0:13:46 like based on the
    0:13:47 views that you
    0:13:47 played around with
    0:13:48 their, what do they
    0:13:49 call it, like their
    0:13:49 partner program or
    0:13:51 publishing program or
    0:13:51 something?
    0:13:52 Yeah, their
    0:13:53 performance bonus
    0:13:55 program is exactly
    0:13:55 right.
    0:13:56 And I could talk
    0:13:56 about this a lot.
    0:13:57 I don’t know if
    0:13:58 this is like another
    0:13:59 side hustle, you
    0:13:59 know, whatever number
    0:14:00 we’re on here.
    0:14:01 Yeah, go for it.
    0:14:02 Facebook performance
    0:14:04 bonus program is a
    0:14:06 really interesting
    0:14:06 program.
    0:14:08 So think of it, I
    0:14:09 mean, think of it
    0:14:09 like the YouTube
    0:14:10 partner program,
    0:14:11 right?
    0:14:11 You know, we all
    0:14:12 see Mr. Beast videos,
    0:14:14 he has ads in his
    0:14:15 videos, the YouTube
    0:14:16 pays him, you know,
    0:14:18 AdSense revenue, ad
    0:14:18 revenue.
    0:14:19 That’s exactly what
    0:14:21 Facebook is doing that
    0:14:23 if you get accepted to
    0:14:24 this performance bonus
    0:14:25 program and not everyone
    0:14:26 gets accepted, but I do
    0:14:27 happen to have a
    0:14:28 Facebook page that is
    0:14:29 accepted so I can talk
    0:14:31 intelligently about this
    0:14:32 program, that once
    0:14:33 you’re accepted, you
    0:14:35 get paid based on
    0:14:36 essentially views and
    0:14:38 interaction of your
    0:14:39 posts, right?
    0:14:40 So if you do have
    0:14:41 something that goes
    0:14:42 viral, gets a million
    0:14:43 views, gets a ton of
    0:14:44 comments, gets a bunch
    0:14:45 of, you know, thumbs
    0:14:47 up or whatever, you
    0:14:48 will make more money.
    0:14:49 And so I have a
    0:14:50 particular page that my
    0:14:51 best month ever was
    0:14:53 just over $5,000 and
    0:14:54 that was about two
    0:14:55 months ago, right?
    0:14:56 On average now it’s
    0:14:58 doing $3,500 to $4,000
    0:14:59 a month and it’s just a
    0:15:01 very obscure, random
    0:15:03 topic that isn’t like,
    0:15:04 you know, popular.
    0:15:05 It’s not like mainstream
    0:15:06 news or anything.
    0:15:07 It’s more like
    0:15:08 nostalgic type stuff
    0:15:09 like, hey, remember the
    0:15:10 80s when this happened?
    0:15:12 That’s not really what my
    0:15:13 page is, but kind of
    0:15:14 in that vein, right?
    0:15:16 Nostalgic stuff.
    0:15:16 Okay.
    0:15:17 So I get some of that
    0:15:17 stuff too.
    0:15:18 Like here’s, you know,
    0:15:19 here was the billboard,
    0:15:21 you know, top 12 modern
    0:15:23 rock chart from 1994 and
    0:15:24 you’re like, I remember
    0:15:25 those songs.
    0:15:26 Exactly.
    0:15:28 Stuff kind of like that.
    0:15:29 Remember this, you know?
    0:15:29 Okay.
    0:15:30 And it might be an
    0:15:31 image of something that
    0:15:33 was, you know, from 20
    0:15:34 years ago or 30 years ago
    0:15:34 or whatever.
    0:15:35 Yeah.
    0:15:36 I remember like blowing
    0:15:37 into the Nintendo
    0:15:38 cartridge or…
    0:15:39 Exactly.
    0:15:39 Yeah.
    0:15:39 Yeah.
    0:15:40 Good stuff.
    0:15:41 Is this something that
    0:15:42 you’re, someone on your
    0:15:43 team is sourcing this type
    0:15:45 of material, like coming
    0:15:46 up with this on a
    0:15:46 consistent basis?
    0:15:48 Yes, it is.
    0:15:49 I’ve, you know, I
    0:15:50 managed it from, from
    0:15:52 the beginning, but like
    0:15:53 you, I’ve got a lot of
    0:15:54 other things going on.
    0:15:55 So I found somebody that
    0:15:57 they run it, they manage
    0:15:58 the entire process, they
    0:15:59 source the content, you
    0:16:00 know, write up the
    0:16:02 descriptions and interact
    0:16:03 with the Facebook page
    0:16:04 where they are essentially
    0:16:05 doing everything at this
    0:16:05 point.
    0:16:06 Okay.
    0:16:07 I’m just, you know, kind
    0:16:08 of managing and making
    0:16:08 sure everything’s
    0:16:09 working well.
    0:16:10 So it’s hardly any of my
    0:16:11 own time.
    0:16:13 So I, you know, pay this
    0:16:14 particular person, you
    0:16:15 know, VA to, to run it
    0:16:16 and manage it.
    0:16:17 And I take whatever
    0:16:18 profits I get.
    0:16:18 Yeah.
    0:16:20 Is it mostly image
    0:16:21 content, video, like
    0:16:22 what’s working well?
    0:16:22 Yeah.
    0:16:24 It’s pretty much image
    0:16:25 content.
    0:16:25 Yeah.
    0:16:26 Where we might ask a
    0:16:27 question about, you
    0:16:27 know, do you remember
    0:16:29 this or, you know, did
    0:16:30 you ever experience this
    0:16:31 or whatever it is, you
    0:16:32 know, we’ll write
    0:16:32 something on it.
    0:16:34 We might put a caption
    0:16:35 on the image, you know,
    0:16:36 but yeah, it’s, it’s
    0:16:37 image content.
    0:16:38 We don’t do any video
    0:16:40 content at this point.
    0:16:40 So.
    0:16:42 Okay.
    0:16:43 That’s an interesting
    0:16:43 one.
    0:16:43 Yeah.
    0:16:45 How many views it took
    0:16:47 to make that $5,000 plus
    0:16:48 the ramp up period to
    0:16:49 get there and more
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    0:19:13 Yeah, so this particular
    0:19:14 page just got into the
    0:19:16 bonus program, I want to
    0:19:17 say July of last year.
    0:19:19 So that’s about nine
    0:19:20 months, something like
    0:19:21 that.
    0:19:22 And I don’t remember
    0:19:23 the first one or two
    0:19:25 months, but it was under
    0:19:25 $1,000.
    0:19:28 But quickly after that,
    0:19:30 since, you know, late
    0:19:31 last year, call it
    0:19:32 October, November, it’s
    0:19:33 been making a couple
    0:19:34 thousand dollars a month.
    0:19:35 So only, you know, two
    0:19:36 or three months of
    0:19:37 getting accepted.
    0:19:39 Now, the page was about
    0:19:40 a year old before that.
    0:19:41 Was it one that you
    0:19:42 started or did you buy
    0:19:43 it like for the
    0:19:44 existing base?
    0:19:45 I had started.
    0:19:46 I had started this
    0:19:47 particular page from
    0:19:47 scratch.
    0:19:48 Okay.
    0:19:49 And I was trying to
    0:19:50 send traffic to my
    0:19:52 website, you know, to
    0:19:53 you know, make things
    0:19:55 go viral, send them to
    0:19:56 the website, make money
    0:19:57 from the ads on my
    0:19:57 website.
    0:19:59 It was like maybe
    0:20:00 making a couple hundred
    0:20:01 dollars a month.
    0:20:02 But once I got accepted
    0:20:03 the performance bonus
    0:20:04 program, I went all in
    0:20:05 on I’m just keeping
    0:20:06 everybody on Facebook.
    0:20:08 I’m like hardly send
    0:20:10 them to my website at
    0:20:11 all because I’m making
    0:20:11 a lot more.
    0:20:13 And so to answer
    0:20:14 another, I think you
    0:20:15 asked like how many
    0:20:16 views does it take?
    0:20:18 So my highest viewed
    0:20:18 month where I made
    0:20:19 about just over
    0:20:20 five thousand
    0:20:21 dollars, there was
    0:20:24 30 million like views
    0:20:25 or impressions.
    0:20:25 Okay.
    0:20:25 Okay.
    0:20:26 Yeah.
    0:20:27 Like essentially 30
    0:20:28 million people scrolled
    0:20:29 past our content.
    0:20:29 Wow.
    0:20:29 Yeah.
    0:20:30 You know, at some
    0:20:30 point.
    0:20:31 So it’s a lot.
    0:20:33 But on Facebook, it
    0:20:35 can, I mean, things can
    0:20:35 absolutely, you know,
    0:20:36 blow up.
    0:20:37 It can add up.
    0:20:37 Okay.
    0:20:38 And the page has about
    0:20:39 a hundred thousand
    0:20:40 followers just so people
    0:20:41 are aware.
    0:20:41 Okay.
    0:20:42 So yeah, so it’s true.
    0:20:43 All those views have
    0:20:44 translated into some
    0:20:45 people clicking and
    0:20:46 saying, okay, we’ll
    0:20:46 follow you now.
    0:20:47 Exactly.
    0:20:47 Okay.
    0:20:48 Do you have a sense
    0:20:49 of how often your
    0:20:51 VA is posting new
    0:20:51 stuff?
    0:20:52 We post like 10 to
    0:20:53 15 times every day.
    0:20:55 So, so it’s a lot.
    0:20:56 So it’s, you know,
    0:20:57 it’s a serious thing.
    0:20:57 Oh yeah.
    0:20:58 Yeah.
    0:20:59 It’s two, three hours a
    0:20:59 day.
    0:21:00 She’s in there, you
    0:21:01 know, posting images and
    0:21:02 interacting.
    0:21:02 All right.
    0:21:03 Yeah.
    0:21:04 It’s a legit thing until,
    0:21:05 you know, Facebook ends
    0:21:06 their performance bonus
    0:21:07 program and it’s all
    0:21:07 crushed.
    0:21:10 But for now, you
    0:21:10 know, we’re putting a
    0:21:11 lot of effort into it and
    0:21:12 it’s working.
    0:21:13 Until, yeah.
    0:21:14 Until the rug gets, uh,
    0:21:15 gets pulled out.
    0:21:15 Right.
    0:21:16 The one that shows up
    0:21:17 a lot in my fee is Jeff
    0:21:18 Rose, um, like good
    0:21:19 financial sense.
    0:21:20 Like his stuff shows up
    0:21:20 a lot.
    0:21:21 Oh yeah.
    0:21:23 And he is like trying to
    0:21:24 trigger people politically.
    0:21:25 A lot of these, like he
    0:21:27 just grabs like screenshots
    0:21:28 of somebody, you know,
    0:21:29 and he’ll play both sides.
    0:21:30 Like I get the sense it’s
    0:21:31 like completely agnostic.
    0:21:32 I don’t really care.
    0:21:33 It’s like, but I want to
    0:21:35 spark those engagements,
    0:21:36 spark those reactions and
    0:21:38 try and get people to, uh,
    0:21:39 to click on this.
    0:21:41 I bet he, I imagine he’s
    0:21:42 doing pretty well with his
    0:21:43 bonus program as well.
    0:21:43 Yep.
    0:21:43 Yep.
    0:21:44 No.
    0:21:45 And that’s, that’s smart.
    0:21:46 We do similar things.
    0:21:47 So going to like your, you
    0:21:49 know, uh, Nintendo example,
    0:21:49 right?
    0:21:51 We might post an image of
    0:21:53 like nine games and say,
    0:21:54 pick your favorite if you
    0:21:55 were stuck inside all day
    0:21:55 or something.
    0:21:56 Right.
    0:21:57 And everybody, oh, Mike
    0:21:58 Tyson’s punch out, you
    0:21:59 know, that’s the one I want
    0:22:01 to do, or, you know, it’s
    0:22:02 stuff kind of like that.
    0:22:03 So it’s fun stuff.
    0:22:03 Yeah.
    0:22:05 It’s like engagement bait in
    0:22:05 a way.
    0:22:06 It’s like engagement bait
    0:22:07 sometimes.
    0:22:07 Totally.
    0:22:08 Oh, this is great.
    0:22:09 Yeah.
    0:22:09 I get people debating.
    0:22:10 Oh, for sure.
    0:22:11 Okay.
    0:22:12 I haven’t applied to do
    0:22:12 this.
    0:22:14 I, you know, maybe need, um,
    0:22:15 I need to find a VA like
    0:22:16 yours to come up with this
    0:22:17 type of content, even if it’s
    0:22:18 side hustle related, that
    0:22:19 could be an interesting way
    0:22:21 to, to grow the page and
    0:22:22 another revenue stream.
    0:22:23 If the, if the page views
    0:22:24 are going down on the main
    0:22:24 site.
    0:22:25 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:22:26 There’s potential there.
    0:22:27 All right.
    0:22:28 What’s, uh, what’s next on
    0:22:29 the list for you?
    0:22:30 Let’s see.
    0:22:31 We kind of talked about
    0:22:33 artificial intelligence kind
    0:22:35 of showing up everywhere, but
    0:22:36 there’s people that are truly
    0:22:37 starting like artificial
    0:22:39 intelligence businesses, right?
    0:22:42 So call it vibe coding, right?
    0:22:43 We now have people using these
    0:22:46 tools that they’re not coders,
    0:22:47 that they’re building software
    0:22:49 products, they’re building apps,
    0:22:51 they’re building little tools
    0:22:53 that people are paying for or
    0:22:54 using, right?
    0:22:56 And so if you have followed
    0:22:58 Peter levels on Twitter, for
    0:23:02 example, he’s built a game using
    0:23:03 artificial intelligence.
    0:23:06 It’s like a airline simulator.
    0:23:08 It’s a, okay, like a airplane
    0:23:10 simulator, uh, type game that
    0:23:11 thousands of people can play at
    0:23:12 the same time.
    0:23:14 So everybody’s like doing flight
    0:23:15 simulators together.
    0:23:16 So you gotta, I don’t know, I
    0:23:17 haven’t played it, but you’re
    0:23:19 dodging other planes and it’s
    0:23:21 just absolutely, you know, blown
    0:23:23 up, but he built it all with
    0:23:24 artificial intelligence.
    0:23:26 And he has a large following.
    0:23:30 So he, uh, has been able to,
    0:23:31 you know, get a lot of users
    0:23:32 very quickly, right?
    0:23:34 That’s a big part of it is
    0:23:35 having that built in audience.
    0:23:37 And now he has sponsors in the
    0:23:39 game that are paying like, Hey,
    0:23:41 we’ll sponsor the cloud or we’re
    0:23:42 sponsor the building.
    0:23:42 Right.
    0:23:45 And so he posted, but it’s, I
    0:23:46 mean, it’s insane numbers.
    0:23:48 Like it’s over $50,000 he’s
    0:23:49 made in this.
    0:23:51 It’s, it’s like less than a
    0:23:52 month old.
    0:23:52 Right.
    0:23:53 Wow.
    0:23:54 And so, but there’s lots of
    0:23:56 other examples now of people that
    0:23:58 are building tools and apps and
    0:24:00 actually selling them or, you
    0:24:02 know, allowing people to use
    0:24:04 them all using, you know, cursor
    0:24:06 dot AI as a tool.
    0:24:08 There’s lovable AI.
    0:24:10 There’s all these tools you can
    0:24:12 use where you basically chat, you
    0:24:14 know, you chat with the AI and it
    0:24:16 builds the app for you.
    0:24:17 Yeah.
    0:24:17 Isn’t that nuts?
    0:24:19 Just like natural language.
    0:24:20 This is what I want to build.
    0:24:20 It’s crazy.
    0:24:21 Yeah.
    0:24:22 We did a whole episode about
    0:24:24 this with Pete McPherson from do
    0:24:25 you even blog.
    0:24:28 He’s built out a handful of these
    0:24:29 different tools.
    0:24:31 His latest one is like, um, you
    0:24:32 know, an email list gadget list
    0:24:33 gadget, I think it’s called, but
    0:24:36 he’s got several of these exited at
    0:24:36 least one of them.
    0:24:39 And it was really interesting how
    0:24:40 you recommended.
    0:24:40 Okay.
    0:24:41 I want to start off by asking
    0:24:44 chat GPT, like, Hey, I want to
    0:24:46 build this big picture.
    0:24:47 What do I need?
    0:24:49 And it’ll list out like, here’s
    0:24:50 what you need to do.
    0:24:51 It’s like step two, go to
    0:24:52 cursor, natural language.
    0:24:53 Here’s what I want to build.
    0:24:54 These are the features of
    0:24:55 functionality that I want to
    0:24:55 have.
    0:24:57 Uh, this is what I’m thinking.
    0:24:59 It’s like, boom, boom, boom.
    0:24:59 You know, it’s like, and now you
    0:25:01 have a semi working version and
    0:25:03 then you ask, you know, if you
    0:25:05 ask it to troubleshoot itself and
    0:25:06 do the QA testing.
    0:25:06 Yeah.
    0:25:09 And now you got to go figure
    0:25:11 out the marketing and sales piece
    0:25:12 is always the challenge of that.
    0:25:14 And his recommendation was to
    0:25:15 like, you know, start with your
    0:25:17 own pains and problems, scratch
    0:25:17 your own itch.
    0:25:19 And like, we call the kind of
    0:25:21 unbundling of different tools
    0:25:23 where I may not need the whole
    0:25:25 feature set of an Ahrefs, for
    0:25:27 example, but like, if I could do
    0:25:28 this one little piece of it, you
    0:25:29 know, okay, maybe that’s
    0:25:31 something that people would be
    0:25:32 worth paying nine bucks a month
    0:25:34 for 19 bucks a month for.
    0:25:34 Yeah.
    0:25:36 Now it’s super fascinating.
    0:25:38 And I’ve seen, I’ve seen
    0:25:40 several examples, kind of like
    0:25:41 you mentioned, of people that
    0:25:43 are building tools, maybe
    0:25:44 they’re not even selling them,
    0:25:45 but they’re building tools for
    0:25:47 their own business to just make
    0:25:48 their life a little bit more
    0:25:50 efficient, like building their
    0:25:51 own essentially WordPress
    0:25:51 plugin.
    0:25:53 Like I want, you know, something
    0:25:55 to do this on my website or
    0:25:57 fix, you know, a thousand
    0:26:00 images, you know, and I, I don’t
    0:26:00 know how to do that.
    0:26:02 I’m not a programmer, but I’m
    0:26:04 smart enough to ask an AI tool
    0:26:05 how to do that.
    0:26:06 And it spits out code for me,
    0:26:07 right.
    0:26:08 To improve my own business.
    0:26:09 Yeah.
    0:26:11 The one that I got all excited
    0:26:12 about the other night was maybe
    0:26:14 this could just be like a custom
    0:26:16 GPT tool is like, so ever after
    0:26:19 every episode hit stop recording,
    0:26:21 my next step is to look at the
    0:26:22 transcript and kind of markup for
    0:26:24 the editor, you know, the, the
    0:26:26 questions that didn’t really land or
    0:26:27 where the conversation went off the
    0:26:28 rails, right.
    0:26:29 Just to tighten that up a little bit
    0:26:31 and provide a better listening
    0:26:31 experience.
    0:26:33 my thought is to build that custom
    0:26:35 GPT, like feed in a bunch of
    0:26:36 before and afters.
    0:26:37 Like here was the original
    0:26:38 recording.
    0:26:39 Here’s what made the final cut
    0:26:40 learned from this, maybe upload
    0:26:41 10 or 15 of those.
    0:26:43 And then like, here’s the next
    0:26:44 raw transcription.
    0:26:45 Like, could you provide some
    0:26:48 suggestions on what to trim from
    0:26:49 this episode to tighten it up a
    0:26:51 little bit and just to see what
    0:26:52 kind of results, maybe that would
    0:26:55 speed up my review process a
    0:26:55 little bit.
    0:26:56 Yeah.
    0:26:57 Now there’s like so many
    0:26:59 applications of different things
    0:27:00 that you can do across your
    0:27:01 entire business.
    0:27:03 It’s a, it’s an exciting time,
    0:27:04 right?
    0:27:06 But things are changing so fast.
    0:27:08 But the, the good news is that
    0:27:10 like such a small percentage of
    0:27:11 people out there, even though
    0:27:13 everybody listening may have heard
    0:27:15 that, Hey, I, I can actually get
    0:27:17 AI to do some coding for me.
    0:27:17 Yeah.
    0:27:20 Very, very few people actually take
    0:27:22 that step to actually build
    0:27:22 something still.
    0:27:25 So the opportunities there, you
    0:27:27 just still need to be willing to
    0:27:29 jump in, take a risk, you know,
    0:27:32 build out your idea and, and do
    0:27:32 it.
    0:27:35 So it’s potentially becoming
    0:27:37 cheaper to build a software
    0:27:37 business.
    0:27:38 And there’s still opportunity
    0:27:39 there.
    0:27:40 I do think for the next few
    0:27:42 years, there’s still only going
    0:27:43 to be a tiny sliver of people
    0:27:45 that actually take that step and
    0:27:45 do this.
    0:27:46 Yeah.
    0:27:48 This is an interesting one from a
    0:27:50 software entrepreneur like
    0:27:51 yourself, like, Oh, if we go
    0:27:53 back 15 years ago, you know, this
    0:27:55 long tail pro just take a fraction
    0:27:56 of the development time and
    0:27:58 effort and cost to, to build
    0:28:00 something, uh, today.
    0:28:01 Probably so.
    0:28:02 Yeah.
    0:28:03 Yeah, exactly.
    0:28:05 If I were to start from scratch,
    0:28:07 you know, I’d probably still have
    0:28:09 to work with a developer, but I
    0:28:11 bet I could get it 50% of the way
    0:28:12 there.
    0:28:13 You know what I mean?
    0:28:13 Yeah.
    0:28:14 Yeah.
    0:28:15 It would definitely be way
    0:28:16 cheaper to, to build something
    0:28:17 now.
    0:28:18 I like this idea of building
    0:28:19 something for your own use.
    0:28:21 And then maybe with a few
    0:28:23 tweaks, it’s almost like white
    0:28:24 labeling to a different
    0:28:25 audience.
    0:28:26 Like if somebody else of
    0:28:28 another podcaster wanted to
    0:28:30 utilize the same, you know,
    0:28:32 editing assistant, you know,
    0:28:33 maybe they could do that.
    0:28:34 And then maybe someday a
    0:28:35 Descript wants to buy that
    0:28:37 from me and I’ve got a nice
    0:28:38 little chunk of change for my
    0:28:38 exit.
    0:28:39 Yeah, exactly.
    0:28:41 And so here’s another side
    0:28:42 hustle trend that I’m seeing
    0:28:44 that’s very related, right?
    0:28:45 So I think we piggyback on
    0:28:48 this is creating free tools or
    0:28:51 free websites that perhaps
    0:28:53 are, you know, generated with
    0:28:55 AI or not, right?
    0:28:58 It either way, but I’ve been
    0:29:00 covering on my YouTube channel.
    0:29:04 I cover a lot of free games or
    0:29:06 free tools, you know, free
    0:29:08 calculators, a lot of these
    0:29:09 things, like for example, a
    0:29:11 couple of them are really
    0:29:13 simple tools, like a YouTube
    0:29:14 thumbnail downloader.
    0:29:16 All you do is you pop in the
    0:29:18 YouTube URL and it pulls the
    0:29:20 thumbnail for you, right?
    0:29:23 Another tool I covered is you
    0:29:25 upload an image of yourself and
    0:29:27 AI detects the shape of your
    0:29:28 face.
    0:29:29 You know, do you have a round
    0:29:33 face or an oblong face or an
    0:29:34 olive face?
    0:29:35 Like I didn’t even know this
    0:29:36 thing existed, right?
    0:29:38 But for example, the face shape,
    0:29:40 it’s called, oh, what’s the
    0:29:40 website?
    0:29:42 Anyways, I can’t remember the
    0:29:44 exact website that it’s called,
    0:29:46 but it gets something like
    0:29:48 two and a half million visitors
    0:29:49 every month.
    0:29:49 Wow.
    0:29:50 That are coming.
    0:29:51 People just, they want to know
    0:29:52 the shape of their face.
    0:29:54 It’s a little like face, face
    0:29:55 shape quiz thing.
    0:29:55 Yeah.
    0:29:57 It’s like face shape AI.
    0:29:58 You upload an image of
    0:29:59 yourself.
    0:30:00 It says, oh, you’ve got an
    0:30:01 oblong face, you know,
    0:30:02 congrats.
    0:30:04 They’re just monetized with
    0:30:04 ads, right?
    0:30:06 But there’s lots of
    0:30:07 calculators.
    0:30:08 Like there’s a sleep
    0:30:09 calculator.
    0:30:11 A fun one is snow day to
    0:30:12 calculator.com.
    0:30:14 You put in your zip code
    0:30:16 and it predicts if you’re
    0:30:17 going to have a snow day
    0:30:17 tomorrow.
    0:30:20 Like is it, what, what are
    0:30:21 the odds that school’s going
    0:30:22 to be canceled tomorrow?
    0:30:22 Right.
    0:30:23 Okay.
    0:30:25 And that gets like 3 million
    0:30:26 visitors a month during the
    0:30:26 winter months.
    0:30:27 Right.
    0:30:27 Wow.
    0:30:28 So there’s a lot of these
    0:30:30 little either free tools or
    0:30:31 there’s lots of games.
    0:30:33 There’s tons of examples of
    0:30:34 games out there.
    0:30:35 Like you could just think of
    0:30:36 some, you know, silly word
    0:30:38 game or shape game or
    0:30:39 whatever it is.
    0:30:42 You make it free, monetize
    0:30:42 with ads.
    0:30:44 The thing can be built with
    0:30:46 AI or simple coding, right?
    0:30:48 So, so a lot of these free
    0:30:50 websites, free tools, a lot
    0:30:51 of these things I’m still
    0:30:53 seeing do, do really, really
    0:30:53 well.
    0:30:55 And you know the secrets
    0:30:57 behind the, what’s driving
    0:30:58 the traffic for like the
    0:31:00 face shape predictor or the
    0:31:01 snow day predictor or anything
    0:31:01 like that?
    0:31:03 Well, the, like the face
    0:31:05 shape one does really well
    0:31:05 in Google.
    0:31:07 It is getting a lot of
    0:31:08 organic traffic.
    0:31:09 And this is something people
    0:31:10 are searching for.
    0:31:12 Like here, if I, if I search
    0:31:14 what’s the shape of my face, I
    0:31:17 want to get the, oh,
    0:31:20 detectfaceshape.com is the
    0:31:20 website.
    0:31:20 Okay.
    0:31:21 Right.
    0:31:22 Yes.
    0:31:23 People are searching for
    0:31:24 this.
    0:31:25 I was, I was blown away.
    0:31:27 Like the, the keywords, like
    0:31:28 it’s hundreds of thousands of
    0:31:30 searches every month for a
    0:31:30 bunch of these.
    0:31:32 So, so that is a Google play.
    0:31:33 The snow day calculator one
    0:31:35 gets a lot of repeat
    0:31:35 visitors.
    0:31:37 Once people find it, they
    0:31:38 just know, Hey, this is, I
    0:31:39 don’t know why so many people
    0:31:41 look at this, but people that
    0:31:42 want to get out of school,
    0:31:44 they’re, Hey, a hundred percent
    0:31:45 sounds like something my kids
    0:31:46 would check every morning.
    0:31:46 Exactly.
    0:31:48 There’s clouds today.
    0:31:49 Maybe I can get out of school
    0:31:49 tomorrow.
    0:31:50 Exactly what they’re doing.
    0:31:51 Yeah.
    0:31:51 And you’re like, well, it’s
    0:31:53 54 degrees, so don’t get your
    0:31:53 hopes up.
    0:31:54 That’s right.
    0:31:55 It’s fun stuff.
    0:31:56 No, this is cool.
    0:31:57 I, this has always kind of
    0:31:59 been on the, the back burner,
    0:32:00 you know, what, what is kind of
    0:32:02 the niche tool or a little
    0:32:05 calculator and, and maybe with
    0:32:06 the, with the help of AI, maybe
    0:32:07 it’s a little simple game.
    0:32:09 One that we talked about, um,
    0:32:11 after a recent trip, we went to
    0:32:13 Hawaii with the family and we’re
    0:32:15 snorkeling along and, you know,
    0:32:17 my six-year-old will tell you the
    0:32:18 story of like, you know, the
    0:32:20 giant turtle attack is like, of
    0:32:21 course the turtle is paying him
    0:32:22 no mind at all, but like the
    0:32:23 water was kind of cloudy and it
    0:32:24 shows up like two feet in front
    0:32:25 of our face.
    0:32:25 Oh yeah.
    0:32:26 Scary.
    0:32:28 So he’s like freaking out and I’m
    0:32:29 like, dude, did he see a shark
    0:32:30 or something?
    0:32:31 You know, it’s a, maybe we
    0:32:33 can make, um, like a crossy road
    0:32:35 style game, but it’s like turtles
    0:32:36 and sharks and jellyfish, like
    0:32:37 something where you have to like
    0:32:39 go across the ocean this way.
    0:32:39 I like it.
    0:32:40 There, you know, maybe there’s
    0:32:42 something, a little browser-based
    0:32:44 game that you could do based on
    0:32:44 that.
    0:32:45 And who knows?
    0:32:46 Maybe people find it.
    0:32:47 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:32:48 I honestly think there are
    0:32:51 thousands of ideas that sometimes
    0:32:53 the sillier, the better, right?
    0:32:55 Because they might have chance to
    0:32:55 go viral.
    0:32:57 I either create a really great
    0:32:58 game, right?
    0:33:00 Or if it’s something silly, that’s
    0:33:02 fun that people might talk about,
    0:33:04 you know, it’s got the opportunity
    0:33:05 to be shared a lot and can do
    0:33:06 well.
    0:33:08 So lots of opportunity there.
    0:33:08 Yeah.
    0:33:10 One, there was something, I saw a
    0:33:12 Twitter post about this and I’ll see
    0:33:13 if I can dig it up for the show
    0:33:15 notes, but it was a bunch of like
    0:33:17 software or little tool ideas.
    0:33:19 And it was, you know, sometimes it’s
    0:33:21 something simple, like how to improve
    0:33:23 images in Word or like, you know,
    0:33:25 maybe you can kind of piggyback a
    0:33:28 question-based query with Word, Excel,
    0:33:30 you know, some software tool and like
    0:33:33 maybe there’s some like layer on that
    0:33:36 you could add to that for a workplace.
    0:33:37 So, you know, maybe if people are
    0:33:39 swiping the company credit card, they
    0:33:41 don’t, they think less about it than
    0:33:42 pulling out their own money.
    0:33:43 So maybe there’s, there’s something
    0:33:44 there.
    0:33:44 Yeah.
    0:33:47 And to piggyback on that a little
    0:33:49 bit, you know, we talked about, Hey,
    0:33:50 you know, Google is changing organic
    0:33:52 traffic is searching for a lot of
    0:33:53 content creators.
    0:33:56 The one area that I am seeing organic
    0:33:58 traffic still do really, really well
    0:34:02 are these tools, these games, right?
    0:34:05 Because when somebody is searching for
    0:34:06 that particular problem, you know, what
    0:34:09 is the shape of my face or whatever the
    0:34:11 query is, you know, they actually do
    0:34:13 need to go to that tool or that
    0:34:15 website to, to get that information.
    0:34:18 So yeah, that is the one area that if
    0:34:20 you want to try and get that organic
    0:34:22 search, you need to be thinking more
    0:34:26 about tools, actual products or games, you
    0:34:27 know, something people can go to and
    0:34:29 actually use and interact with on your
    0:34:30 website.
    0:34:32 Okay, very cool.
    0:34:36 The next one that I have on my list is what
    0:34:38 I, what I’m calling the death of the online
    0:34:41 course in the rise of the higher touch, higher
    0:34:42 engagement offer.
    0:34:45 And I don’t know if this is a factor of AI or a
    0:34:48 factor of just like online course fatigue, where
    0:34:53 it’s like that lower ticket, maybe the hundred to
    0:34:58 $500 online courses make a really, a really
    0:35:00 difficult place to play in right now, in my
    0:35:00 opinion.
    0:35:03 And what we’re seeing is a shift towards the, you
    0:35:06 know, thousand, 2000, you know, maybe two to
    0:35:07 $10,000.
    0:35:11 Um, yeah, as much as $30,000 for like some really
    0:35:12 high touch.
    0:35:14 You have a dedicated coach who’s going to hold
    0:35:15 your hand.
    0:35:19 Maybe there’s some, uh, you know, on-site local, you
    0:35:21 know, retreats or workshops that are included in
    0:35:24 this, but it’s, um, it can kind of a transition
    0:35:29 away from a purely on-demand pre-recorded video
    0:35:33 based course to a more, uh, high engagement.
    0:35:35 Maybe there’s a community element to this.
    0:35:37 Maybe there’s live, uh, live coaching elements.
    0:35:39 And so if you’re thinking about structuring an
    0:35:43 offer, that’s just something to keep in mind for, um,
    0:35:44 you know, going forward.
    0:35:44 Yeah.
    0:35:47 And I think part of that is that, uh, there’s so
    0:35:50 much information for free on YouTube through video
    0:35:51 content.
    0:35:53 I think that’s part of it, right?
    0:35:57 Is that, Hey, maybe I used to buy a video course for
    0:36:02 $200 or $500, but now I can get 90% of the way there
    0:36:04 just with free content on YouTube.
    0:36:08 So, so people are like, eh, if it’s just video, maybe,
    0:36:11 maybe I’m not going to do it, but I do believe that
    0:36:12 you’re exactly right.
    0:36:16 Uh, more and more people are craving in-person type
    0:36:20 meetups, uh, or community based, you know, where you can
    0:36:24 interact either in, in smaller groups, you know, maybe you
    0:36:28 have a mastermind that’s part of this, uh, community that you
    0:36:31 can meet up with on a regular basis, or you get that more
    0:36:31 high touch.
    0:36:34 Like you said, um, that, that’s what I’m seeing.
    0:36:38 And, and same with me, you know, I am, I’m part of an
    0:36:43 online community that I paid for, for, uh, a few years, but I
    0:36:46 don’t pay for the, uh, education part of it.
    0:36:50 It’s really just the community part of it, uh, that I I’m
    0:36:52 there because I like the people that are in the community.
    0:36:56 And, you know, when I have a problem, I have a group of
    0:36:59 people I know, and I trust, I know they’re experienced, I can
    0:37:01 bring up an issue and I know I’ll get an answer.
    0:37:01 Yeah.
    0:37:05 This community based, we’ve seen people shifting from like a
    0:37:08 on-demand evergreen model to more of a cohort based.
    0:37:10 If you’re going to do the course thing, it’s like, we’re all
    0:37:11 going to go through this together.
    0:37:15 It has a defined start date and a defined end date.
    0:37:18 And we, you know, everybody, there’s no working ahead.
    0:37:21 Like we’re going to do this, uh, together like that safety and
    0:37:24 numbers or strength and community, uh, I think can, can work
    0:37:25 really well.
    0:37:27 And it makes it probably easier to sell than just something.
    0:37:28 Well, it’s, it’s always available.
    0:37:29 You can buy it tomorrow.
    0:37:30 You can buy it the next week.
    0:37:31 Doesn’t really matter.
    0:37:32 It’s like, you got to get in.
    0:37:34 Cause we’re starting on Tuesday.
    0:37:35 Yep, exactly right.
    0:37:35 Yeah.
    0:37:39 I think, uh, those types of models work well, seems to be the
    0:37:39 trend.
    0:37:40 That’s what I’m seeing.
    0:37:43 More side hustle trends with Spencer in just a moment, including a
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    0:40:25 One other trend that I found interesting, or maybe this has been going on forever, and I was just like playing in the organic sandbox too much, but like, you know, more and more entrepreneurs incorporating paid media, paid traffic, paid acquisition strategies, and really trying to break down their value chain of, well, what is a customer ultimately worth at the end of the funnel?
    0:40:27 Or, you know, what is a customer?
    0:40:28 Or, you know, what is a visitor really worth to me?
    0:40:29 What’s an email subscriber worth to me?
    0:40:32 How can I go out and profitably buy those customers?
    0:40:34 Like, it was insane.
    0:40:39 The amount of money flowing through Meta from one mastermind group or coaching group I was a part of last year.
    0:40:45 It’s like, everybody in the room was spending thousands, tens of thousands of dollars a month with Mr. Zuckerberg.
    0:40:48 And I was like, dude, what an amazing business that they built.
    0:40:48 Yeah.
    0:40:50 Yep, exactly right.
    0:41:09 But, I mean, that’s sort of the golden opportunity that’s always been there, is that if you know that it costs you a dollar to acquire a customer, and you can make $2 for every customer that you get in the door, you’re going to just spend as much money as you possibly can, right?
    0:41:21 And I’ve personally never landed on that perfect business where I can just spend tens of thousands of dollars every month, and I know I’m going to make tens of thousands of dollars in profit because I’m buying that traffic.
    0:41:22 But some people have.
    0:41:23 Some people have.
    0:41:28 You know, one of those examples that has been very public about it is Matt Paulson.
    0:41:39 And he owns MarketBeat.com, where it’s a financial newsletter business where he spends essentially as much money as he possibly can to get people on his email list.
    0:41:44 And he now has, I think it’s, it was either five or six million subscribers that he just passed.
    0:41:44 Wow.
    0:41:45 On his email list.
    0:41:48 So it’s a huge business at this point.
    0:41:56 And he’s calculated out, okay, I know I’m going to make this much in the first week, you know, because we send this many emails and this many convert.
    0:42:00 We know we’re going to make this much after the first month or lifetime value of the customer.
    0:42:04 And so he just keeps pouring gas on the, on the fire there.
    0:42:05 Well, yeah.
    0:42:08 So you can get that flywheel spin and yeah, spend as much as you can.
    0:42:08 Yep.
    0:42:09 Exactly right.
    0:42:13 And so this might be part B of this side hustle trend.
    0:42:19 The trend that maybe has been around for a little while is newsletters, newsletters as a business, right?
    0:42:29 I think is what I’ll put that category in is a lot of people are sort of foregoing the traditional website and they’re truly just focusing on.
    0:42:36 We just get people on the email list and then we have sponsors that pay to be listed in our email newsletter, right?
    0:42:37 A little ad spot.
    0:42:46 And so you get 50,000 or a hundred thousand people on your email list and you know you’re going to make a thousand dollars every time you send an email newsletter out to your list.
    0:42:48 You do that two times a week, right?
    0:42:50 All of a sudden you’re making eight, $10,000 a month.
    0:42:59 And so this has been a trend, definitely a side hustle trend that I’ve seen is monetized email newsletters and that is the platform.
    0:43:00 Like that’s it.
    0:43:01 Yeah.
    0:43:02 It’s, it’s interesting.
    0:43:05 Well, we create all this content with the goal of getting people on my newsletter.
    0:43:16 What if the newsletter is the content and that’s working really well for some people and maybe an even clearer path towards that lifetime value of a subscriber metric that you’re trying to.
    0:43:20 Figure out and like, okay, now I can go out and, and buy subscribers.
    0:43:26 Essentially, we’ve talked with Ryan’s men on like the Naptown scoop, like local newsletter for Annapolis.
    0:43:32 It’s like, well, you know, based on this ad load and this frequency, it’s like exactly what you described.
    0:43:34 Like, oh, I, yeah, I can totally go out and buy subscribers.
    0:43:38 But like for a local newsletter, it’s like, well, the population is 80,000.
    0:43:46 Like I’m going to cap out at some point where it’s like, you know, the market share is only so big, but for something that is a little bit broader than, uh, you
    0:43:47 really can go huge with it.
    0:43:47 Yep.
    0:43:50 Or you go to more locations, right?
    0:43:50 It’s true.
    0:43:51 Franchise it out.
    0:43:51 Yeah.
    0:43:53 We do five cities now, you know, or whatever.
    0:43:55 So, but yeah, yeah.
    0:43:58 It’s super interesting, you know, email newsletters as a business.
    0:43:58 Yeah.
    0:44:03 And we’ve got a few newsletter based episodes that went with Ryan on the local side.
    0:44:08 We’ve done, uh, Cody Sanchez has been on the show like early on in her journey, this journey
    0:44:11 to her first, like 50,000 subscribers.
    0:44:13 So definitely a viable model there.
    0:44:16 If, you know, if the websites are going to be a little more difficult, there’s other ways
    0:44:20 to monetize that content, other ways to create and share that content.
    0:44:27 The next one on my list is what I’m calling everything as a service.
    0:44:29 You know, you can’t just pay for something now.
    0:44:30 You got to pay for it every month.
    0:44:36 And I don’t know if this is, you know, the product of Netflix or product of, you know, everything
    0:44:39 is just, you know, it’s a tiny amount.
    0:44:41 It’s just, you know, a little bit.
    0:44:44 And it becomes from the consumer side, like, oh, well, this is, hey, sure.
    0:44:45 I can afford that.
    0:44:47 But at a certain point, it’s like the death by a thousand paper cuts.
    0:44:51 So it’s like, oh, it’s just one more, there’s one more little SaaS tool to add on.
    0:44:56 But from the entrepreneur’s standpoint, it’s almost baked into your pricing model, this
    0:44:59 assumption that it’s going to be a recurring monthly thing.
    0:45:04 And so you can lean into that and get people used to, used to paying for your thing over
    0:45:05 and over again.
    0:45:05 Yep.
    0:45:06 Yeah.
    0:45:11 And I was just looking at a perfect example of this, a hosting company, you know, where
    0:45:16 usually, you know, in the past, you might get a domain along with your, you know, hosting
    0:45:16 package.
    0:45:23 But now a lot of hosting companies, you get a full website builder, you know, that’s
    0:45:26 a visual builder, you get the hosting, you get the domain.
    0:45:31 Now some are offering AI tools, you get an AI image generator, you get an AI, you know, writer,
    0:45:38 you get, you know, an AI blogging tool, you get, you know, it’s like everything to like
    0:45:40 run your online business now.
    0:45:44 And it’s just one friendly, you know, monthly fee, right?
    0:45:49 But, but yeah, I’m seeing that more and more as you know, these, these companies that are
    0:45:51 building in lots of tools.
    0:45:55 It’s like, well, I’ll just, you know, spend 10 bucks a month to do all that then, I guess.
    0:45:56 Yeah.
    0:45:57 Makes sense.
    0:46:03 If you’re, you’re providing a consistent service, if there’s a community element to what you’re
    0:46:06 doing, like, Hey, you know, it’s 50 bucks a month, it’s a hundred bucks a month.
    0:46:08 Stay a member of this community.
    0:46:10 We’ve seen people doing paid newsletters.
    0:46:10 Sure.
    0:46:15 The free newsletter tier offers this, this, and this, but you know, the paid tier offers,
    0:46:17 you know, a way you’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg.
    0:46:22 So here’s, you know, more in depth, you know, curated content, whatever is behind the paywall.
    0:46:28 Now we talked about it in the context of little micro SAS projects, software tools, lots of
    0:46:30 different ways to, to go about it.
    0:46:35 But thinking of that recurring revenue first versus a, a one-off purchase.
    0:46:37 And this relates to the online course thing too.
    0:46:40 It’s like, Hey, I’m going to collect $200 one-time upfront payment.
    0:46:42 You got lifetime access to the thing.
    0:46:46 We’ve seen a little bit of a shift and maybe it’s the entrepreneurs getting a little more savvy.
    0:46:48 Well, that’s great for my launch.
    0:46:50 But then what happens 12 months later?
    0:46:54 It’s like, and I keep having to serving these, keep having to serve these people over and over
    0:46:55 again without collecting any additional revenue.
    0:47:01 So we’ve seen people shift that pricing model to more of a community-based or, or add a recurring
    0:47:01 element to it.
    0:47:02 Yep.
    0:47:04 I think that’s smart business.
    0:47:07 Anytime you can add recurring revenue, I think that’s smart business.
    0:47:08 Cool.
    0:47:09 Oh, you got another one?
    0:47:10 Yeah, I do.
    0:47:12 Um, I’ve got a couple more.
    0:47:16 This is a, I don’t know if you call this a side hustle trend, other than I’ve seen this
    0:47:16 opportunity.
    0:47:18 And I haven’t seen it talked about a lot.
    0:47:20 I don’t know if it’s been covered on the side hustle show.
    0:47:21 Maybe it has been.
    0:47:27 So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but people are publishing content on MSN.
    0:47:34 So I don’t know if you’ve seen small publishers, you know, MSN.com truly MSN.com.
    0:47:34 Yeah.
    0:47:38 A lot of older people tend to still have that as their homepage.
    0:47:44 It gets millions and millions of views every month, but you can be a publisher to contribute
    0:47:46 content to MSN.
    0:47:50 And, uh, I just had a buddy just this last month.
    0:47:58 He’s had a few things go really viral and he made, uh, just over $20,000 just from publishing
    0:47:59 on MSN.
    0:47:59 Wow.
    0:48:00 Right.
    0:48:06 Uh, and so it’s one of these really unique opportunities you can apply to get your website
    0:48:06 approved.
    0:48:12 Uh, so if your organic traffic is going down from Google, well, you can publish content
    0:48:14 on MSN.com.
    0:48:17 They’re still getting a ton of direct traffic, right?
    0:48:22 And the population of viewers on MSN is probably skews a little bit older.
    0:48:28 Uh, and so if you have content that does really well in that demographic, you can get millions
    0:48:29 of views, right?
    0:48:34 So it’s, I’ve heard of lots of people doing this, uh, but I happen to have a buddy that’s
    0:48:36 been giving me updates, uh, over those last month.
    0:48:37 He’s doing really, really well.
    0:48:38 Yeah.
    0:48:43 We’re a part of the MSN publishing program, Microsoft start program.
    0:48:45 It was maybe called, um, early on.
    0:48:46 It may have changed.
    0:48:52 We’ve never had anything go that viral, but you know, I think our best month is maybe 150,
    0:48:53 200 bucks a month.
    0:48:59 So it’s not, it’s not 20,000, but it’s another place to syndicate the content that you’re already
    0:49:01 creating for pretty low lift.
    0:49:07 One of the strategies that was shared with me, it’s like, if you can somehow like sync
    0:49:11 your RSS feed and I don’t know, I’ve got like a lot of short code and stuff in my posts where
    0:49:14 I was like, I don’t know if that would look right.
    0:49:19 Or I don’t know, maybe they would strip that out, but if you can syndicate your RSS and like
    0:49:24 if you’re creating listicles, like the top 12 ways to make money online in 2025, like
    0:49:26 it will create like a gallery.
    0:49:30 And so people have to page through obnoxious from the user standpoint, but MSN is racking up
    0:49:33 more page views, racking up more ad views, right?
    0:49:37 And so that’s going to improve your take, your, your rev share from that content versus
    0:49:40 having a, a scrollable, uh, list post.
    0:49:40 Yep.
    0:49:45 And I think, um, a lot of people are now publishing content, uh, directly just on MSN.
    0:49:48 It’s not even on their website, right?
    0:49:52 And so you can create these like image carousels or video.
    0:49:53 I can’t remember what they’re called.
    0:49:58 There’s a particular thing that you can get that it’s really just on MSN that you have to
    0:50:00 scroll through these, yeah, 10 images.
    0:50:05 And, um, so anyways, kind of an interesting opportunity that’s been around for a long time,
    0:50:08 but I’ve seen, uh, several people doing really well recently with it still.
    0:50:09 Yeah.
    0:50:14 That’s one of the, it’s one of the income streams, uh, for, for side hustle nation, but maybe there’s
    0:50:15 a way like everything.
    0:50:19 There’s a way to like triple down on the thing and really, really go for it.
    0:50:20 You just got to pick the one.
    0:50:20 Yeah.
    0:50:22 That you’re going to go all in on, right?
    0:50:23 It’s hard to do them all.
    0:50:23 Yeah.
    0:50:27 Publish, you know, 10 times a day or whatever it’s going to take.
    0:50:29 I remember talking with John Dykstra a few months ago.
    0:50:31 It’s like a really double down on email.
    0:50:33 Like when you say double down, what do you mean?
    0:50:35 He’s like, I sent three emails a day.
    0:50:36 It’s like, Jesus.
    0:50:37 Like, Oh, okay.
    0:50:39 And we’re over here doing one or two a week.
    0:50:41 Yeah, exactly.
    0:50:46 And next on my list is a service based side hustle observation.
    0:50:54 And that is the increase in acceptance for fractional support, or maybe a buzzword around
    0:51:00 fractional support, fractional CTO, fractional CFO, stuff like this, where if you have expertise
    0:51:08 in a particular field that calling yourself the fractional person, I think elevates you above,
    0:51:11 Hey, I’m your freelance accountant, or I’m your freelance bookkeeper.
    0:51:13 No, I’m going to be your fractional CFO.
    0:51:16 And I think it allows you to command higher rates, higher prices.
    0:51:23 And plus people are maybe becoming more willing to hire that type of person or agree to a contractor
    0:51:29 relationship with that type of person lends itself really well to niche agencies, niche
    0:51:30 productized service providers.
    0:51:31 Yeah, absolutely.
    0:51:35 I mean, we see this all the time, you know, from a user perspective, if I go to Upwork and
    0:51:41 I’m looking to hire somebody, and I get people that apply that are sort of generalists, right?
    0:51:45 They say, Oh, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this, you know, I can do it all versus
    0:51:51 somebody that says, I create financial spreadsheets in in Google Sheets.
    0:51:53 And that is what I do, right?
    0:51:57 You’re going to hire that guy if you’re looking for a financial spreadsheet, and you’re going
    0:51:57 to pay way more.
    0:51:59 Yeah, I’m going to be willing to, right?
    0:52:04 I’m like, $30 an hour versus the $10 an hour guy, but I’m going to do it because that’s what
    0:52:05 you do.
    0:52:10 So if you can be a specialist, you know, in your field and sort of market yourself as either
    0:52:17 the fractional, or, you know, I am the go to email newsletter, optimization person, or whatever
    0:52:19 it is, you’re going to command that higher price.
    0:52:21 Yeah, yeah, exactly.
    0:52:27 I’m the go to person for viral Facebook partner program content in your niche.
    0:52:29 Exactly.
    0:52:30 And that person does exist.
    0:52:31 I know who that is.
    0:52:34 And they have a thriving business.
    0:52:34 Very good.
    0:52:35 Very good.
    0:52:43 The next one on my list is what I’m calling influencer marketing partners or influencer co-founders,
    0:52:46 where they’re almost like you might have a technical co-founder.
    0:52:50 Now it’s on what you might have a an influencer co-founder or influencer partner.
    0:52:54 And at the very top of the food chain, you have Mr. Beast and Feastables and stuff.
    0:53:01 But like, even lower down, we’ve had examples of e-commerce sellers on the podcast, you kind
    0:53:07 of tapping into this really, really broad segment of what they called micro influencers, people
    0:53:14 with like 500, 1,000 up to maybe 10, 20,000 followers, like not super viral accounts, but
    0:53:16 they’ve got people paying attention to them.
    0:53:18 They have been in the content creation game.
    0:53:23 They know how to make something compelling and sending them samples of the product and really
    0:53:29 leaning into that as a marketing channel versus trying to go out and, you know, find traffic
    0:53:31 and buyers the other way or other through other channels.
    0:53:33 I mean, it’s smart, right?
    0:53:38 Because a lot of times if you have a product, you’ve got a good idea, you have zero followers.
    0:53:45 If you can kind of skip that whole step of building things up over the years and partner with somebody
    0:53:49 that already has that influence, already has that following, it’s like almost a guaranteed
    0:53:51 way to launch to success.
    0:53:56 Now you just have to be willing to either give up a piece of your business or give up, you know,
    0:53:59 revenue of the business and you don’t figure out a model that works well for you.
    0:54:04 But I think it’s a smart business for influencers that, hey, there are a lot of people that have
    0:54:07 tons of followers, but they don’t have any good business ideas.
    0:54:10 Like they just, you know, they have influence.
    0:54:10 Yeah.
    0:54:13 And then there’s other people that have really good ideas.
    0:54:15 They just, they don’t have any influence.
    0:54:18 So if you can partner that up, it’s a, it’s a cool model.
    0:54:19 Yeah.
    0:54:24 We’ve seen it from the standpoint of, we’ll give you affiliate commission for everyone that
    0:54:30 you sell, like through Amazon creator connections or whatever, or we’ll just send you free product
    0:54:35 or we’ll pay you a flat fee to create this type of video, but lots of different ways to
    0:54:40 structure it, but I kind of the, the secret sauce seemed to be either casting that really
    0:54:41 wide net.
    0:54:41 Okay.
    0:54:47 I’m going to send out, you know, a thousand messages to these different accounts or finding
    0:54:51 like that one really influential partner to bring in who, you know, can drive consistent
    0:54:52 traffic.
    0:54:58 And it was, it was on my first million where Sean was pitching this like virtual assistant
    0:55:03 company for a while and it was like, he, he bought a stake in that and then turned around
    0:55:07 and used his influence from the podcast to like drive customers to that business.
    0:55:08 Yeah.
    0:55:09 Really, really, really smart.
    0:55:10 All right.
    0:55:10 What’s next?
    0:55:11 All right.
    0:55:14 This might be my last one, uh, that I have here.
    0:55:19 And I don’t know if I’m seeing it as a trend, but it’s something that I’m going to try a little
    0:55:22 bit and I could see this developing into a trend.
    0:55:28 You, you tell me, you know, whether it is or not, but actually going the other way, more
    0:55:34 people are going more online, more AI, more technology, going the other way, going back
    0:55:38 to physical products, items you can touch, you know, feel.
    0:55:45 So, uh, one thing that I am actually going to be trying is reselling items on eBay.
    0:55:49 This, you know, has been around for how many decades now?
    0:55:50 Yeah.
    0:55:52 Everything that’s old is new again.
    0:55:53 Everything that’s old is new again.
    0:55:58 So part of the reason I’m doing this, I do have older kids that are looking for summer
    0:55:58 jobs.
    0:56:02 And so I’m like, what’s something that teenagers can run?
    0:56:05 And so we just went out this weekend.
    0:56:07 We bought Amazon return pallets.
    0:56:10 I actually picked them up at a liquidation warehouse.
    0:56:12 Is it the, where you been store?
    0:56:16 Somebody, I was like, that’s a fantastic name for this bin sale place, but cause I know it’s
    0:56:17 in Eastern Washington somewhere.
    0:56:17 Oh, okay.
    0:56:20 No, there, there actually is in the tri cities.
    0:56:26 It’s not a bin store, but it’s, it’s actually, this guy has a bunch of contracts where he,
    0:56:33 I mean, he had like 300 pallets of just Amazon returns, Walmart return, you know, big box store
    0:56:34 returns.
    0:56:35 We bought three of them.
    0:56:39 We’re going to unpack it, try and resell it on eBay.
    0:56:45 So it’s, it’s not a new business, but I feel like going back to the basics of like, there’s
    0:56:50 going to be stuff that people are going to want to buy for cheaper than they can get in the
    0:56:51 store forever.
    0:56:53 That’s never going away.
    0:56:59 So the trend of going to a business that isn’t going to be as impacted by all the
    0:57:01 technological changes, I think is a smart trend.
    0:57:03 Yeah, exactly.
    0:57:07 The local plumbing service is not worried about AI, you know, he’s not going to come.
    0:57:09 Computers aren’t going to come and fix your pipes.
    0:57:11 Yep, exactly.
    0:57:15 If nothing else, you’ll get, you’ll get some, uh, content about the pallet, pallet flipping
    0:57:16 pallet return business.
    0:57:18 That’s exactly right.
    0:57:18 Right.
    0:57:22 So I’m, I’m hoping I get a summer job for my kids, maybe get some good content for me.
    0:57:26 I expect to make approximately $0 on this business.
    0:57:31 I’m hoping that my kids, you know, earn some money, but who knows, maybe it becomes profitable.
    0:57:32 We’ll see.
    0:57:33 I mean, that, that would be ideal.
    0:57:33 Yeah.
    0:57:35 But if I can break even on it, I’m happy.
    0:57:39 No, that’s a good way to expose them to this buy low, sell high.
    0:57:44 And is it, is it worth the work of picking through all these things, listing individual
    0:57:44 items?
    0:57:49 Like there’s a lot that goes into it and it sounds like a kind of luck of the draw and what’s,
    0:57:52 you know, you don’t get to see everything that’s in that pallet before you get it.
    0:57:57 But we do have, uh, an episode on pallet return item, pallet flipping.
    0:58:01 It’s just cause I, it’s, it’s something that comes up on people’s side hustle lists.
    0:58:02 I’m curious about it.
    0:58:02 Yeah.
    0:58:08 And somebody was, was making it work, but similar, like they made a couple, maybe 25 grand over
    0:58:10 the course of a year or two in doing it.
    0:58:15 But if they didn’t, it sounded like if they didn’t have the YouTube video of themselves
    0:58:19 filming, doing it, it’s like, I don’t know if we would really, it would be really worthwhile.
    0:58:21 But, uh, that’s a cool one.
    0:58:27 I do want to piggyback on your, well, what are the things that AI isn’t going to impact
    0:58:28 or take away?
    0:58:33 And part of that is this shift towards, uh, maybe a shift in interest towards local services,
    0:58:39 the window washing businesses, the house cleaning businesses, the power washing companies, the,
    0:58:44 uh, you know, mobile car detailing, like these blue collar type of side hustles where you could
    0:58:52 start relatively low cost, relatively low risk, and don’t even need, like if you have any level
    0:58:56 of digital marketing savvy, you’re probably going to be, uh, head and shoulders above the
    0:58:57 entrenched competition.
    0:59:02 I think that’s, um, definitely a trend worth mentioning because we’ve seen more and more
    0:59:06 young people, especially young people being interested in those types of businesses, like
    0:59:11 low tech, good old fashioned elbow grease, go, go do the work and get paid for it.
    0:59:12 Yeah.
    0:59:17 I think a lot of us that have been in the online world for so long, like we, we see all these
    0:59:20 shifts and these changes and it’s frustrating.
    0:59:23 And we’re like, oh, how are we going to make, you know, this online business work?
    0:59:26 Well, there’s this whole other world out there, right?
    0:59:32 Where you can go knock on a door and you can, you know, meet people in person and, um, you
    0:59:35 know, have a real phone number where people call you.
    0:59:41 Like there’s so many opportunities for side hustles, whether it’s local or, you know, in
    0:59:48 person or just, uh, you know, the not online business that, Hey, there, there’s a lot of
    0:59:53 things that people need and we’re, we’ll always need that won’t be impacted by these
    0:59:54 huge technological shifts.
    0:59:55 Yeah.
    0:59:56 Very true.
    0:59:58 Spencer, this has been awesome.
    0:59:59 I don’t know how many we were up to.
    1:00:01 I think definitely more than 10 at this point.
    1:00:03 So probably a good place, good place to wrap up.
    1:00:07 We delivered on our promise and hopefully a little bit extra on top of that.
    1:00:08 But what’s next for you?
    1:00:10 Any projects going on?
    1:00:11 What’s the latest with niche pursuits?
    1:00:12 Yeah.
    1:00:18 I mentioned the one, Hey, I’m, I’m kind of starting a little side business with, with my, with my
    1:00:18 kids.
    1:00:19 So that’s going to be fun.
    1:00:25 That’s kind of something I’m dabbling with the whole palette flipping idea, but, uh, going
    1:00:26 all in on YouTube videos.
    1:00:29 Uh, my YouTube channel’s done, uh, pretty decent.
    1:00:35 So where I talk a lot about different website ideas that might still be working, the type
    1:00:37 of trends that are still working online.
    1:00:40 So covering a lot of that, um, on my YouTube videos.
    1:00:45 Other than that, no, no big shakeups, you know, with, with what I’m going to be doing, I just
    1:00:47 keep publishing some content on YouTube.
    1:00:49 Got my Facebook page going.
    1:00:54 I, uh, have a little Amazon influencer, you know, side hustle.
    1:00:56 I’ve got, you know, videos there.
    1:00:59 So, you know, kind of keep dabbling on a few little side hustles, keep the niche pursuits
    1:01:02 brand going and we’ll see where it goes from there.
    1:01:05 I get the impression that, you know, that may be similar.
    1:01:07 You probably don’t need to work anymore.
    1:01:08 You’ve been doing this for a long time.
    1:01:10 You’ve had some exits under your belt.
    1:01:12 Like you’ve had some fantastic earning years and months.
    1:01:17 Is there a retirement plan or do you just keep doing this?
    1:01:18 Cause you love doing it.
    1:01:18 Yeah.
    1:01:25 You know, I’m still enjoying things, but I am very much, I’ve removed a lot of things
    1:01:26 from my business that I don’t enjoy.
    1:01:32 So I do have the opportunity and the ability like, you know, my Facebook page VA, I’m not
    1:01:35 going to go in and post things 10 or 15 times a day.
    1:01:35 Right.
    1:01:41 So I do enjoy the strategy of coming up with ideas and trying to plug in a system or people
    1:01:42 that can run it for me.
    1:01:43 So I enjoy that.
    1:01:45 So I’ll keep doing that.
    1:01:50 And, you know, I’m actually, I volunteer at a local pickleball organization.
    1:01:52 We have a pickleball community, right?
    1:01:58 So I’m looking for a more volunteer opportunities, maybe work a little bit less, but still, Hey,
    1:02:02 I like the excitement of, Hey, there’s this cool new idea.
    1:02:04 Can we make it work?
    1:02:09 So I haven’t quite retired yet, Nick, but I’ll, I’ll let you know, but I’m doing all I
    1:02:11 can not to work quite as much.
    1:02:12 Let’s put it that way.
    1:02:13 Fair enough.
    1:02:17 You know, the, the love of the game, parse out the stuff that you don’t like and keep
    1:02:18 what you do.
    1:02:18 Yeah.
    1:02:21 That’s, uh, you know, try and play in that same space.
    1:02:22 So I’m very cool.
    1:02:24 Uh, niche pursuits.com.
    1:02:24 Check them out over there.
    1:02:26 Check out the niche pursuits podcast.
    1:02:28 We’ll link up the YouTube channel as well.
    1:02:32 Like I said, going all in on YouTube, more and more guests are saying, Hey, I’m leaning
    1:02:34 in on the YouTube stuff, doing more video.
    1:02:38 If the website isn’t working as well, I can make, uh, I can make videos and it’s a lot
    1:02:39 of fun too.
    1:02:41 Thanks so much for joining me.
    1:02:42 I think this was, this was a blast.
    1:02:48 If you’re listening to this and you want to make some extra money and you’re not sure which
    1:02:52 path to take, I want to invite you to take our free quiz at hustle.show.
    1:02:54 You can do it right from your phone.
    1:02:55 It’ll take a couple of minutes or less.
    1:03:02 And then based on your answers, we’re going to give you a custom curated playlist to hopefully
    1:03:03 put you in the right direction.
    1:03:06 These are going to be eight to 10 side hustle show episodes based on your answers.
    1:03:08 Hey, what should we listen to next?
    1:03:13 And if you want more Spencer in your life and go listen to his three or four side hustle show
    1:03:17 appearances as well, but hustle.show that’s your personalized playlist quiz.
    1:03:21 And just again, a few short questions about your interests and goals, and, uh, you can get
    1:03:26 that personalized playlist, add it to your device, learn what works, and then go out and make
    1:03:26 some more money.
    1:03:28 Big thanks to Spencer for sharing his insight.
    1:03:31 Thanks to our sponsors for helping make this content free for everyone.
    1:03:37 Uh, as always, you can hit up side hustle nation.com slash deals for all the latest offers from our
    1:03:38 sponsors in one place.
    1:03:39 That is it for me.
    1:03:42 Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.
    1:03:44 Let’s go out there and make something happen.
    1:03:47 And I’ll catch you in the next edition of the side hustle show.

    What are the best side hustle trends you should look out for in 2025?

    These might impact what business you start and how you think about scaling it.

    And to help me out is a longtime friend and a friend of the show, Spencer Haws from NichePursuits.com.

    He’s been covering online side hustles even longer than I have.

    Almost all our content starts from the question of, “How do I make extra money?” To answer that, it’s important to know where the market’s been, where it is, and where it’s potentially going.

    Tune in to Episode 667 of the Side Hustle Show to learn:

    • what side hustles are thriving right now and which ones are fading
    • why email, AI, and even eBay are making big comebacks
    • how to future-proof your hustle in a rapidly changing digital world

    Full Show Notes: 10+ Side Hustle Trends for 2025

    New to the Show? Get your personalized money-making playlist here!

    Sponsors:

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  • Canada’s Role in a Shifting Global Order — with Mark Carney

    AI transcript
    0:00:04 Support for the show comes from Mercury, the fintech that more than 200,000 entrepreneurs
    0:00:06 use to simplify their finances.
    0:00:09 When banking can do more, your business can do more.
    0:00:12 With Mercury, you can watch your revenue climb with every invoice you send.
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    0:00:18 You can unlock the credit you need to scale faster.
    0:00:20 Check it out for yourself at Mercury.com.
    0:00:23 Mercury, banking that does more.
    0:00:31 Soon enough, high schoolers will be donning those caps and gowns.
    0:00:35 But what comes next is less of a sure thing than it was a decade ago.
    0:00:41 Students are genuinely questioning if college is worth it and if college is really the right thing for them,
    0:00:43 knowing what they know about themselves.
    0:00:47 This week on Explain It To Me, a look at the new range of alternatives to college
    0:00:51 and how some high schools are setting up their graduates for success.
    0:00:55 New episodes on Sunday mornings, wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:01:02 What does it really mean to interpret the Constitution in a country that’s constantly changing?
    0:01:07 No judge decides a case based on the temperature of the day.
    0:01:12 Every judge, however, is aware of the climate of the season.
    0:01:17 I’m Preet Bharara, and this week on Stay Tuned, I’m joined by Justice Stephen Breyer.
    0:01:21 We get into how judges make sense of the law in a politically charged time
    0:01:25 and what that says about the values and pressures shaping today’s Supreme Court.
    0:01:27 The episode is out now.
    0:01:31 Search and follow Stay Tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:01:37 Episode 344.
    0:01:40 Route 344 is a highway located in Columbia County, New York.
    0:01:47 In 1944, Danny DeVito was born, and the U.S. sent 100 million cans of Spam to soldiers overseas.
    0:01:51 What did the cannibal say when he ate his first can of Spam?
    0:01:54 Oh my god, this is the greatest thing since sliced fret.
    0:01:57 I like that.
    0:01:58 Okay, that’s not good.
    0:01:59 You want a dick joke.
    0:02:03 Okay, I am sick of getting Spam emails saying I can make my penis eight inches.
    0:02:04 I know how to do that already.
    0:02:06 I’ve folded in half.
    0:02:21 Welcome to the 344th episode of the Prof G-Pod.
    0:02:22 What’s happening?
    0:02:24 The dog is booked in business.
    0:02:26 The dog is a Palm Beach dog.
    0:02:28 I’m staying at a place called The Colony, which is sort of,
    0:02:35 if the Beverly Hills Hotel had an adjacent property in Florida that was not as nice,
    0:02:41 but, you know, sort of like, Glen Eagles has something called Glen Eagles Townhouse in Edinburgh.
    0:02:45 If this sounds like a total conversation of privilege, i.e. douchebag, trust your instincts,
    0:02:49 but they have a property in Edinburgh that’s not nearly as nice,
    0:02:52 this would be the less nice version of the Beverly Hills Hotel.
    0:02:56 I think it’s a fantastic, I don’t know, fantastic.
    0:02:58 I think it’s an, I’m, hotels are my hobby.
    0:02:59 What’s your hobby?
    0:03:03 Well, I read a lot of nonfiction, or I do a lot of, no, not me.
    0:03:04 I go to nice hotels.
    0:03:04 It’s my hobby.
    0:03:05 I won’t travel to cities.
    0:03:06 I’ll travel to nice hotels.
    0:03:09 By the way, if you’re looking for a wreck on any hotel in almost any city,
    0:03:11 daddy is where you come.
    0:03:15 Anyways, this is a small data point on a larger theme, and that is,
    0:03:20 there is an emerging cohort of services, companies, and hotels, and hospitality,
    0:03:23 and restaurants that I refer to as 64.
    0:03:26 And that is six-star prices with four-star service.
    0:03:28 And what’s happened is the following.
    0:03:34 The cohort that’s grown the fastest in the United States is not Latinos, it’s not seniors, it’s
    0:03:37 the super wealthy, or even just the wealthy.
    0:03:38 They have absolutely crushed it.
    0:03:41 And these folks like to spend money.
    0:03:46 And not only has their income gone up, or their wealth has gone up, but their mentality has changed
    0:03:46 since COVID.
    0:03:49 It’s sort of, you only live once, YOLO, let’s get out there, let’s travel.
    0:03:52 A lot of them had pent-up demand to travel from COVID.
    0:03:55 And they realized that, you know, we all meet the same end.
    0:04:00 We all come into this world in diapers, we all leave in diapers, but the reality is we all leave.
    0:04:02 And so luxury travel has just boomed.
    0:04:06 And there’s a natural gating supply constraint, and that’s the following.
    0:04:10 To build a luxury hotel probably takes the better part of a decade.
    0:04:14 By the time you find the financing, find a location, get the zoning, the permitting,
    0:04:17 construct the thing, train, get everyone, it takes 10 years.
    0:04:21 So there is a absolute supply-demand imbalance right now.
    0:04:24 The Beverly Hills Hotel, where I stay when I go to LA, which is wonderful.
    0:04:25 Which is wonderful.
    0:04:26 It’s like the Disney of hotels.
    0:04:30 You have the Pirates of the Caribbean, and then Space Mountain, you have the counter,
    0:04:34 you have the great restaurant next to the pool, then you have the polo lounge.
    0:04:35 It’s Disneyland.
    0:04:38 You never need to go anywhere else, and I love it because everyone will come see me there.
    0:04:40 Pre-COVID, it was about $700, $800.
    0:04:42 COVID, it dropped to $400.
    0:04:44 I was one of those guys traveling during COVID.
    0:04:47 And then now it’s $1,800 for a room.
    0:04:51 Six-star travel, and no one feels sorry for anyone here, has seen inflation, I think,
    0:04:57 that’s probably greater than any category because massive increase in demand with choked supply.
    0:05:02 The outcropping from that, or one of the manifestations of that, is that you can now stay at a hotel
    0:05:04 like this one where they have six-star prices.
    0:05:06 I won’t tell you what I’m spending in my room.
    0:05:07 For four-star service.
    0:05:13 And what they do is a cultural phenomenon, and that is they try and throw people at the problem.
    0:05:17 And that is they hire a lot of people who are these nice young people that, my guess is they underpay,
    0:05:21 that are not interested in being in the services industry for very long.
    0:05:23 This is a transition job, and that’s fine.
    0:05:26 I parked cars in college, and I was a pool boy at the Mondrian Hotel.
    0:05:32 Anyways, the 64 hotels, six-star prices, four-star service.
    0:05:37 The problem is when we hit any sort of speed bump, this shit’s going to get wrecked.
    0:05:42 I mean, you’re going to see declines in room rates of 70%.
    0:05:46 And that is companies have to figure out how much they price.
    0:05:47 I think pricing is the hardest thing.
    0:05:52 Do they price perfectly to demand and raise prices when they have power?
    0:05:57 Or do they decide, like the Four Seasons and some other places, even when they could raise their prices,
    0:06:00 they don’t because it pisses people off and creates ill will.
    0:06:01 And that’s what they’re doing here.
    0:06:06 They’re monetizing the shit out of this place and throwing weddings and bat mitzvahs.
    0:06:14 And they are, instead of catering to their current consumers, they’re renting out the pool if they see an opportunity to make another $10,000 or $20,000.
    0:06:15 And I get it.
    0:06:19 They probably spent a lot of money to buy this place and fix it up, and they’re very ROI-focused.
    0:06:21 But they’re trading off goodwill and a reputation.
    0:06:30 The Beverly Hills Hotel or the Hotel du Cap would never, ever do anything that gets in the way of the guest’s experience, if you will.
    0:06:32 God, just hearing this, I sound obnoxious.
    0:06:40 Anyways, this is, you’re going to see in the travel industry and the hospitality industry, a massive decline, I believe, in pricing.
    0:06:40 Why is that?
    0:06:46 The number of people traveling right now into the U.S. is crashing.
    0:06:47 Is crashing.
    0:06:48 Why?
    0:06:53 Yeah, I used to go watch football games at Uncle Sam’s every weekend.
    0:06:53 But guess what?
    0:06:57 Uncle Sam is a total asshole, and he’s gone fucking crazy.
    0:06:59 So let’s just hold off, and let’s stick at home.
    0:07:04 Have you seen those pictures of Toronto International Airport?
    0:07:04 I think it’s called Pearson.
    0:07:08 During Christmas break from last year to this year.
    0:07:09 Last year, packed.
    0:07:17 A ton of Canadians trying to get down to Palm Beach or to L.A. or to Naples or wherever or Miami to get some of that thing called sunshine.
    0:07:20 This year, lines are empty.
    0:07:22 No one’s coming to the U.S.
    0:07:23 Literally, tourism is crashing.
    0:07:24 And guess what?
    0:07:25 All this bullshit.
    0:07:29 All this bullshit around trying to bring back our great manufacturing sector.
    0:07:31 There are 12 million people who work in manufacturing.
    0:07:33 Do you know how many work in tourism in the U.S.?
    0:07:34 13 million.
    0:07:40 So we have this consensual hallucination that somehow we’re going to restore manufacturing by raising prices on everybody.
    0:07:42 Yeah, that doesn’t work, folks.
    0:07:53 But what is working is you’re seeing an immediate destruction, an immediate change in the tourism industry that affects and employs 13 million Americans.
    0:08:13 So you are going to see not a collapse, but you are going to see real pressure in organizations ranging from Disney to some of the bigger hotel companies to Marriott when all of a sudden the rates have to drop because we are going to lose at the margins a ton of Canadians, a ton of Mexicans, a ton of Europeans who think, you know what?
    0:08:16 There are a lot of nice places to travel.
    0:08:17 There are a lot of nice.
    0:08:18 I know.
    0:08:19 Let’s go to Disneyland.
    0:08:21 Let’s go to Disneyland in Paris, not the one in Orlando.
    0:08:22 Right?
    0:08:23 I know.
    0:08:24 We want to gamble.
    0:08:27 Let’s go to Macau or Monaco instead of going to Vegas.
    0:08:27 I know.
    0:08:28 I know.
    0:08:29 Great city.
    0:08:30 Let’s go to London.
    0:08:31 Let’s not go to New York.
    0:08:34 They have great theater in London, not in New York.
    0:08:38 We could not be more stupid right now.
    0:08:42 And you’re about to see the helm of the bobsled that’s going to get hurt, I think, first.
    0:08:43 Well, I don’t know who’s going to get hurt first.
    0:08:45 Who’s going to get hurt first?
    0:08:46 I don’t know.
    0:08:51 I think travel, I think the travel industry is about to start being in a series of earnings
    0:08:53 calls that are just going to get uglier and uglier.
    0:08:55 Let’s talk about a few people I talked to this weekend.
    0:08:56 Let’s go back to the tariffs.
    0:08:57 The big T.
    0:08:58 That’s right.
    0:09:04 Talk to the CEO of a catalog company that does a lot of housewares and homewares.
    0:09:06 And get this, right?
    0:09:09 $10 million worth of merchandise on a boat coming in from China.
    0:09:17 This person has to show up with a check for $14.5 million, the 145% tariff that was on as
    0:09:18 of 10 minutes ago.
    0:09:18 I don’t know if it’s off.
    0:09:24 But should it stay when the boat actually docks, or the boat, the ship, the tanker, you
    0:09:29 know, one of those big fucking things, when it docks at the port of Long Beach, this person
    0:09:33 has to show up or their company has to show up with a $14.5 million check.
    0:09:35 Otherwise, they can’t offload the stuff.
    0:09:37 By the way, most people don’t really understand what a tariff is.
    0:09:41 The stuff comes in, and then the person bringing it in has to pay a tariff to the U.S. government.
    0:09:44 So this person unexpectedly has to find $14.5 million.
    0:09:46 That is not easy.
    0:09:47 That is not easy.
    0:09:54 And just to add insult to injury, this person has to go find people to go down to the dock
    0:09:59 and then hire them to relabel and reprice every single item.
    0:09:59 Why?
    0:10:03 Because now the supply chain is so sophisticated in China that they have the
    0:10:08 factories, so in the labeling and the pricing and the tagging to save time and money.
    0:10:14 So this person has to figure out a way to get down there and undo everything on the products.
    0:10:14 What does that mean?
    0:10:17 This person has stopped all shipments from China.
    0:10:21 By the way, unlike many people in the Republicans or people in the Trump administration, my anecdotes
    0:10:22 are actually true.
    0:10:23 I’m not lying.
    0:10:27 Second person I talked to, oh, what is this person doing?
    0:10:29 It stopped all shipments from China.
    0:10:30 Too expensive.
    0:10:32 And it’s going to have to reduce their inventory.
    0:10:36 Their inventory is going to go down, which means not only are the products with this huge
    0:10:40 tariff going to be marked up, but this person is also going to have to increase their prices
    0:10:43 to try and get some of that money back with lower supply.
    0:10:47 Maybe she can have a more elastic pricing, increased prices.
    0:10:50 So prices are going up, see above inflation.
    0:10:53 But then this person is going to run out of product.
    0:10:58 Then this person also in their next quarterly earnings call is going to have to puke all over
    0:11:02 the earnings call because this person all of a sudden has to say, well, there was this
    0:11:05 $14.5 million expense we weren’t even planning on.
    0:11:08 That comes right off the bottom line, folks.
    0:11:10 So what do you have?
    0:11:12 Oh, also some other conversations I had this weekend.
    0:11:16 A German automobile manufacturer called What Would You Do?
    0:11:17 I’m like, I have no fucking idea.
    0:11:19 I can’t predict what this guy is going to do.
    0:11:25 A friend of mine from the fraternity at UCLA has built this really lovely little specialty
    0:11:27 retail or specialty products company.
    0:11:31 You know when you go to a conference and there’s branded shit everywhere and you get those, I
    0:11:37 got like 45 fucking water bottles that say Oracle or NetSuite or ZipRecruiter and then
    0:11:41 all the banners and all the logos and the cups and everything that’s branded, that’s
    0:11:42 a specialty products company.
    0:11:45 He’s built a really nice business, but three kids through school employed, I think about
    0:11:46 120 people.
    0:11:49 I bet it’s a 10 or $20 million business.
    0:11:49 I don’t know.
    0:11:54 And over the last 30 years, slowly but surely, he’s told me, everything has moved to China.
    0:11:58 They just have a better supply chain and they can do shit at a lower cost, right?
    0:12:00 He stopped.
    0:12:01 He stopped all shipments.
    0:12:07 There’s no way he can turn to his customers and say, oh, this, all this logo wear and these
    0:12:12 logo fleeces and these banners and this signage for the stage, it was going to cost you $8,000.
    0:12:14 Now it’s going to cost you 21.
    0:12:16 He just can’t do that.
    0:12:20 So he’s going to have to eat all the contracts he’s always committed to, right?
    0:12:22 While paying these tariffs, he has to come up with additional cash flow.
    0:12:29 He said, Scott, this is reminiscent, but worse, worse than COVID.
    0:12:31 It’s like my business has come to an end.
    0:12:34 It’s literally my business is coming in.
    0:12:35 My guess is he retires.
    0:12:40 I don’t think he’s got it in him to try and figure out all the new supply chain relationships
    0:12:44 and to come up with the additional capital that’s going to be required to support this
    0:12:45 business moving forward at universities.
    0:12:47 What’s going on?
    0:12:50 Corporations have paused hiring.
    0:12:52 What’s a pause?
    0:12:54 It’s called non-hiring.
    0:12:58 Because if they pause for three or six months, it’s not as if when they fire up again,
    0:13:00 they double their pace of hiring.
    0:13:04 If you pause your hiring for six months, you’ve basically reduced hiring and employment or
    0:13:08 new employment at that company by 50% that year because they don’t catch up.
    0:13:10 They just start again.
    0:13:15 And what would you do if you’re a large corporation trying to figure out if and what the tariffs will
    0:13:16 be and how to plan your business?
    0:13:17 Do you hire new people?
    0:13:19 No, you think we’re just going to press a pause.
    0:13:22 The worst thing about this, well, that’s not true.
    0:13:24 There’s a lot of things that are shitty about this.
    0:13:28 But we’ve decided to declare war on everyone all at once.
    0:13:32 The piece of the calculus that is missing here is the following.
    0:13:36 You need to assess when you go to war or you have a negotiation with someone, you need to
    0:13:38 assess your strengths, right?
    0:13:41 Your own weaknesses and then their strengths and their weaknesses.
    0:13:43 And what they have miscalculated is the following.
    0:13:47 They think their weakness is their dependence upon us.
    0:13:48 What they miss is the following.
    0:13:49 They are not self-aware.
    0:13:55 And that is Americans’ tolerance for pain is incredibly low.
    0:13:59 Women are born with a greater tolerance for pain because they have to endure childbirth,
    0:14:00 which word has it.
    0:14:05 And I have personal experience, observational experience here, not actual experience, that
    0:14:06 in fact, it is the real deal.
    0:14:10 Supposedly there’s a hormone that releases right after childbirth that gives women amnesia.
    0:14:11 Otherwise, they’d never fucking do it again.
    0:14:17 We are the man in this relationship, meaning the U.S. has a much lower tolerance for pain
    0:14:19 than China.
    0:14:24 China starves or has starved tens of millions of people when they felt it was in the best
    0:14:26 interest of the political party or the nation as a whole.
    0:14:31 We fucking freak out when we think that the final episode of The Sopranos was a mistake
    0:14:33 and start calling our cable company.
    0:14:36 This is how stupid these people are.
    0:14:37 What do we have?
    0:14:40 Let’s review less hiring, more expenses.
    0:14:44 The economy is slowing, which I’m sure the president got all sorts of data points on
    0:14:44 last week.
    0:14:47 But meanwhile, interest rates are going up.
    0:14:51 If interest rates and those costs keep going up, it can chase down that consumer sentiment
    0:14:52 and that certainty.
    0:14:53 And what do we have?
    0:14:56 The uncertainty index is at a 40-year high.
    0:15:01 Consumers in America feel more uncertain right now than they did when there was a virus that
    0:15:02 killed a million people.
    0:15:03 Think about that.
    0:15:04 Think about that.
    0:15:07 Consumer confidence is crashing.
    0:15:08 So what do we have?
    0:15:09 What do we have?
    0:15:10 Less hiring.
    0:15:15 Stagflation or threats of stagflation, which is Latin for we’re headed towards a depression
    0:15:16 if we’re not careful.
    0:15:19 We have retailers who don’t know how to plan their business.
    0:15:25 And we have an administration that has no ability to actually assess the current situation
    0:15:27 and what our strengths are and our weaknesses are.
    0:15:32 There is no better opponent than someone who overestimates their strengths and is aggressive
    0:15:34 and gets into the ring with you.
    0:15:38 And quite frankly, just isn’t as strong or as quick as they think they are.
    0:15:42 But they have the hubris to believe that they’re awesome so they don’t train that hard.
    0:15:42 They don’t think that hard.
    0:15:46 They just get in the ring and start flailing wildly.
    0:15:46 Guess what?
    0:15:51 In about three months, if not sooner, we’re going to wake up and all we’re going to see
    0:15:52 are bright lights.
    0:15:54 We’re going to be flat on our ass staring up.
    0:15:56 And all we would have heard is the ding.
    0:15:57 And what was that ding?
    0:15:58 Stupid tariffs.
    0:16:01 This is the definition of stupid.
    0:16:07 OK, with respect to tariffs and today’s episode, arguably one of our most important interviews
    0:16:10 or I don’t know, I think I think this means we’re big time.
    0:16:10 We’re big time.
    0:16:16 We speak with Mark Carney, Canada’s 24th prime minister and leader of the Liberal Party sworn
    0:16:17 in this March.
    0:16:21 We discuss with the prime minister of the country’s economic outlook how Canada fits into a shifting
    0:16:26 global order and whether the U.S.-Canada relationship can be repaired amid rising trade tensions.
    0:16:29 I really enjoyed this conversation with the prime minister.
    0:16:34 He’s clearly a very intelligent guy, thoughtful, especially enjoying the end.
    0:16:36 I asked him some questions more personal in nature.
    0:16:42 We’ll ask Prime Minister Carney his thoughts on our relationship and where we go from here.
    0:17:02 Prime Minister, where does this podcast find you?
    0:17:04 I’m in Montreal right now, Professor.
    0:17:10 The majority of the world spends their news is 10 minutes domestic and 20 minutes international.
    0:17:13 In the U.S., we’re kind of self-absorbed, narcissistic.
    0:17:15 We don’t talk a lot about other countries.
    0:17:20 I think most people have heard of you, have seen you on TV, but don’t know much about you.
    0:17:22 Can you give us sort of your backstory, your origin story?
    0:17:23 Sure.
    0:17:29 So, I was born in the Arctic, the north of Canada, a place called Fort Smith, Northwest Territories.
    0:17:34 I grew up in Edmonton, and those who might follow hockey was the days of Wayne Gretzky when
    0:17:35 he was playing for the Oilers.
    0:17:36 That was when I was a kid.
    0:17:42 I went away to university in the U.S., and then I worked on Wall Street or versions of Wall
    0:17:42 Street.
    0:17:46 I worked for Goldman Sachs in London and Tokyo and New York and ultimately Canada.
    0:17:51 And then I went in about 20 years ago to become the deputy governor of the Bank of Canada,
    0:17:56 which is the equivalent of the Federal Reserve in the U.S., and ended up being the governor
    0:17:58 during the financial crisis of 2008.
    0:18:02 So, worked with, you know, through that process of the financial crisis.
    0:18:05 We had a, quote, good financial crisis.
    0:18:10 If you can have a good financial crisis in Canada, we got through it better than anyone else, emerged
    0:18:10 stronger.
    0:18:18 And then, ultimately, I kind of, slightly bizarrely, I was asked to become governor of
    0:18:18 the Bank of England.
    0:18:21 So, I became the first foreigners governor of the Bank of England.
    0:18:26 And I did that through the period of the Brexit referendum, as it turned out, and the aftermath
    0:18:26 of that.
    0:18:31 And then came back Canada 2020, right in the middle of COVID.
    0:18:35 You had a, I think you probably had a better experience during COVID if I, listening to
    0:18:38 your podcasts, if I read it correctly, than I did.
    0:18:42 And then I worked, I worked, did a lot of work on climate change for the United Nations, sort
    0:18:47 of pro bono, and organizing the financial sector to help address climate change.
    0:18:50 But also, at the same time, I worked for Brookfield, which is a big asset manager.
    0:18:52 And I was chair of Bloomberg.
    0:18:58 And then, as of the start of January, I first ran for the leadership of the Liberal Party,
    0:19:01 which is one of the main parties here.
    0:19:04 And winning that, became prime minister about a month ago.
    0:19:06 And now I’m running for election.
    0:19:10 We have much, last point, much shorter elections than the United States.
    0:19:15 Our campaign is 37 days, and we’ve got two weeks roughly left to go.
    0:19:19 So, a big friend of the pod is Ian Brenner, the geopolitical strategist.
    0:19:25 And he was on the pod last week, and he described you as a, open quote, generational mind for
    0:19:27 Canada on the global stage, close quote.
    0:19:33 In your view, what role does Canada play on the global stage?
    0:19:37 So, we play, I mean, we play several roles.
    0:19:39 We’re a member of the G7.
    0:19:43 In fact, we are chair of the G7 this year, so I’m chair of the G7.
    0:19:47 We’re a member of the Commonwealth, which is the old UK grouping.
    0:19:52 We’re a member of the Francophonie, which is the, obviously, the Francophone grouping of
    0:19:53 about 60 countries.
    0:19:59 So, we have our role in several different, let’s call it organizations, self-appointed organizations
    0:20:00 or groupings.
    0:20:07 I think one of the roles we play potentially in the new or the emerging global order is partly
    0:20:09 based on, you know, our assets.
    0:20:14 We are an energy, an emerging energy superpower in all forms of energy.
    0:20:18 We’re one of the largest critical mineral suppliers in the world.
    0:20:19 We’re pretty good in AI.
    0:20:23 A lot of people claim that we’re, you know, but we’re, I think, legitimately claiming that.
    0:20:30 And so, we can play a role as a country that believes in open markets, open systems, believes
    0:20:33 in trade, open ideas, diversity.
    0:20:40 We can play a role with like-minded countries to kind of reconstruct that bit of the international
    0:20:44 order, which has been, I’m in Montreal, they would say bouleversé.
    0:20:51 It’s been upended in the course of, more intensively in the last few months, but a process that
    0:20:54 really began with the financial crisis 15 years ago.
    0:20:57 And just for our listeners, the elephant in the room is terrible, so I’m going to get to
    0:20:58 that.
    0:21:04 But I want to start with, if you were to, so typically in the U.S., and I imagine the same
    0:21:08 way in Canada, when a new leader is elected, assuming you get elected, they have sort of a
    0:21:14 honeymoon period and an opportunity to get more done in their first year, more grace, if you
    0:21:17 will, than in the next two or three years.
    0:21:21 What would you identify as the two or three biggest issues facing Canada, and what’s your
    0:21:21 agenda?
    0:21:25 If you could pick two or three things you’re really going to go hard at your first year as
    0:21:26 prime minister, what are those things?
    0:21:32 As you just suggested, I’ll set tariffs aside and focus in on three things.
    0:21:36 First is having free trade actually within Canada.
    0:21:43 We have basically 13 economies here, 10 different provinces and territories, all with their own
    0:21:43 rules.
    0:21:48 Hard to move credentials and sometimes goods and services across the country, far harder
    0:21:49 than it should be.
    0:21:53 So a process, a very quick process of free trade.
    0:21:58 And by the way, just to put orders of magnitude on this, a reasonable estimate of the economic
    0:22:03 benefit of that is bigger than the economic hit from the worst version of the Trump tariffs.
    0:22:06 So we can kind of give ourselves more than others can.
    0:22:09 Second thing is we have a huge housing problem here.
    0:22:15 And particularly, obviously, for your younger Canadians, first and foremost, we need to double
    0:22:16 the rate of housing.
    0:22:21 And we need to, I won’t go into all the details, I’m happy to, but we need some major reforms
    0:22:22 in order to do that.
    0:22:26 We can do it in a way that actually leverages, you know, the Canadian supply chain technology
    0:22:31 and all the lumber we potentially won’t be able to send southbound to the U.S.
    0:22:35 And then the third thing, look, the world’s fluid.
    0:22:37 I’m afraid this kind of comes towards tariffs.
    0:22:42 But I think the trading system is going to get reordered fairly quickly.
    0:22:47 And so in the course of the first year, the question is, well, who are we going to deepen
    0:22:50 our relationships with other than the United States?
    0:22:54 And those relationships, last point, are both economic and security.
    0:22:57 The world’s a much more dangerous and divided place.
    0:22:59 Security concerns are top of the list.
    0:23:04 So who in Europe or European Union as a whole, UK, who in Asia, where are we going to partnership?
    0:23:11 If I can say one last thing, Scott, is, you know, just being shaken so hard by what’s
    0:23:18 happening in the United States, Canadians are very open to all of those priorities.
    0:23:20 Like people are up for big things.
    0:23:23 They’re coming together and they’re willing to do big things because they know they have
    0:23:25 to do big things because the world’s changed so much.
    0:23:28 Well, let’s use that as a segue into tariffs.
    0:23:33 So I haven’t checked my Apple Watch in the last two minutes, so I don’t know the state of
    0:23:34 things right now.
    0:23:38 Now, you’re, my understanding, Canada’s our largest trading partner, no?
    0:23:41 We tend to be obsessed with China, but you’re our largest trading partner, no?
    0:23:43 We’re your most important, yeah.
    0:23:44 Yeah.
    0:23:46 So give us the state of play.
    0:23:51 You’re the man representing our largest trading partner economically.
    0:23:58 As, to the best of your knowledge, describe the state of play between what is happening
    0:24:00 between the U.S. and Canada.
    0:24:02 Where does it sit at this moment?
    0:24:09 So I’ll start with the bad news or the, as we would call it, the unjustified news, which
    0:24:10 is what tariffs are in place.
    0:24:17 We have still in place today tariffs that were originally justified because of fentanyl, fentanyl
    0:24:20 coming across the border from Canada.
    0:24:26 Just for the listeners who haven’t tracked this, less than 1% of the fentanyl imported into
    0:24:27 the United States comes from Canada.
    0:24:32 In fact, you’ve got a sophisticated audience, so I can say things like 19 basis points of
    0:24:34 the fentanyl comes across the border from Canada.
    0:24:39 We’ve taken major steps to reinforce the border, drones, helicopters, other things, and it’s
    0:24:44 fallen by a further 90, 9-0% over the course of the last three months.
    0:24:49 But those tariffs hit a wide range of goods in Canada, hit a wide range of goods, and there’s
    0:24:51 a few carve-outs for that.
    0:24:55 But, you know, it’s hitting hundreds of billions of goods, and those are 25% tariffs from the United
    0:24:56 States.
    0:25:00 Then we are also caught, secondly, we’re also caught in the steel and aluminum tariffs,
    0:25:05 which are this, quote, national security tariffs, so-called 232 tariffs.
    0:25:08 We are the largest supplier of aluminum in the United States.
    0:25:13 We’re one of the most important suppliers of steel to the United States, and you can roll
    0:25:17 those up into hundreds of thousands of jobs in the U.S., depending on Canadian steel and
    0:25:18 aluminum.
    0:25:22 And then the third thing is we are caught in the auto tariffs.
    0:25:27 As people probably know, but I’ll just personalize it, well, they wouldn’t know this fact.
    0:25:32 There was something called the AutoPAC, which was signed the year I was born, you know, 60
    0:25:32 years ago.
    0:25:38 And we have had an increasingly integrated auto system with the United States for 60 years.
    0:25:39 It got tighter with the Canada-U.S.
    0:25:42 Free Trade Agreement 40 years ago, and then with NAFTA and the successor.
    0:25:48 So literally, you know, these companies and the supply chains, the main parts suppliers, they’re
    0:25:50 virtually fully integrated.
    0:25:57 And now into the middle of this is coming 25% U.S. tariffs, which are, you know, in an
    0:26:01 industry, as you know, that has, you know, 5%, 7% margins.
    0:26:04 I mean, this is absolutely damaging.
    0:26:06 So we have three sets of tariffs.
    0:26:11 We are not subject yet to the so-called reciprocal tariffs to the U.S.
    0:26:17 So the state of the relationship is strained, to say the least, because all of these tariffs
    0:26:21 are in violation of what you call USMCA.
    0:26:24 We call KUSMA, the same trade agreement.
    0:26:31 The good news or the better news is that three weeks ago or so, President Trump and I spoke
    0:26:36 and we agreed that following the Canadian election, there would be the beginning of a negotiation
    0:26:40 of a comprehensive, a new comprehensive relationship, economic security.
    0:26:45 So we are in the queue, so to speak, for those discussions.
    0:26:52 It strikes me that these actions are about to inspire what they envision, that is a tremendous
    0:26:56 amount of dealmaking, but dealmaking around us.
    0:27:03 It just seems logical, and this is a thesis, and I want you to validate or nullify it.
    0:27:09 But if I’m a G7 nation and I have a trading partner that I used to be able to count on,
    0:27:13 that was mutually very prosperous, and now I just not only can’t count on them, but have
    0:27:18 no idea who I’m waking up next to, that it’s incredible motivation to start establishing
    0:27:20 dialogue with other nations.
    0:27:27 Respond to that thesis, is Canada aggressively and actively trying to reroute around America
    0:27:27 right now?
    0:27:35 Well, I would say, you know, trade is a world of and, so, you know, it’s a positive
    0:27:39 sum game, as you know, or both sides, you do it right, both sides win, it’s not a zero sum
    0:27:39 game.
    0:27:46 So I might not choose the phrase around America, but obviously, you know, look, if we’re, if
    0:27:50 we’ve got excess capacity or we have things we’re going to develop, I’ll use the example
    0:27:56 of critical minerals, where we’re a big player, who are, with whom are we going to trade?
    0:27:58 Who can we rely on?
    0:28:04 You know, we’re, we’re, we’re sitting here, we supply 70% of the potash to the United States,
    0:28:08 you know, one of the most important components of fertilizer, 70%.
    0:28:12 And there is a 25% tariff being put on potash.
    0:28:17 So when you think about it, well, geez, maybe I might want to take another, I’ll call it
    0:28:20 a commodity, even though critical metals and minerals are more than that.
    0:28:24 If we’re going to develop those, maybe we want to develop them with a supply chain to
    0:28:26 someone who’s not going to slap a tariff like that on.
    0:28:28 So that I’m validating your thesis.
    0:28:34 We, we, yeah, we have begun to intensify discussions with other, other countries, other trading blocks.
    0:28:38 We have a pretty good set of trading, trade deals in place.
    0:28:39 We have a free trade deal with Europe.
    0:28:40 We have a free trade.
    0:28:45 We’re part of the trans, what was called the Trans-Pacific Partnership in Asia.
    0:28:48 So we have a number of those, but we, we’re, we’re looking to reinforce them.
    0:28:54 Um, and look, we’re, we are hopeful, maybe hopeful isn’t the right word, but we’re open
    0:29:01 open is a better way to put it to, um, a restart of the U S trading relationship, um, provided
    0:29:06 there’s willingness on the other side and we can come to one of those positive, positive sum deals.
    0:29:12 So I would imagine you speak to a lot of other G7 leaders or G20 leaders.
    0:29:19 What’s the general consensus around American leadership right now?
    0:29:26 And I realize that you have more restraint and are a bit more or tangibly more diplomatic,
    0:29:33 but what is the thesis among this group of world leaders around what is going on here?
    0:29:35 Uh, how do they explain it?
    0:29:37 How do you explain it to each other?
    0:29:38 Or can you explain it to each other?
    0:29:43 Cause quite frankly, here in the U S a lot of this doesn’t even make sense to us.
    0:29:45 And, and this is our leadership.
    0:29:52 Well, I think the first thing is to recognize as, as I have said, and, uh, a number of those
    0:29:59 other leaders have said, including G7 leaders is that the system as we knew it is over, right?
    0:30:04 When the anchor of the system is fundamental, has done a series of measures, uh, that the U S has
    0:30:07 done, but also set out a series of objectives.
    0:30:11 And I’ll come back to that, uh, but the set of a series of objectives that are just inconsistent
    0:30:14 with the way the system has been operating for decades, right?
    0:30:17 Basically since the fall of the Berlin wall intensified since then.
    0:30:21 So you recognize that that system anchored on the U S is over.
    0:30:24 That then leads to how do you react to it?
    0:30:28 There’s partly the negotiation with the U S and which you’ve been focused on, but then it’s
    0:30:30 also, how do we deal with each other?
    0:30:34 Which we’ve also touched on in terms of what the U S is trying to accomplish.
    0:30:40 I think it’s, uh, you know, I take, uh, go back to, uh, uh, Peter Thiel of, uh, 10 years
    0:30:45 ago saying, take Donald Trump literally, uh, and seriously, but take him literally and seriously.
    0:30:52 And, you know, they looking to, um, to balance, uh, where to the extent possible to balance trade,
    0:30:57 which is not the way we think about things, but is the way the U S thinks about things.
    0:31:04 And, you know, you do get into odd situations like Canada, where we actually run a, America
    0:31:07 has a trade surplus with Canada in goods.
    0:31:12 The only reason there’s an overall deficit with Canada is because of basically oil imports.
    0:31:16 Well, if you don’t want our oil imports, that will be a bit of a problem for a period of time.
    0:31:21 Cause you know, the only other option for the refineries that take Canadian oil is Venezuela.
    0:31:25 And that’s, uh, you know, they’re just banned those, uh, those imports as well.
    0:31:30 So there it’s not, the logic isn’t entirely consistent.
    0:31:30 Let’s put it that way.
    0:31:35 But I think at the core recognizing this desire for more balanced trade.
    0:31:42 And so from the U S administration question, I think in our mind is there are some industries,
    0:31:47 autos, particularly aerospace would have another element of this.
    0:31:52 Um, and then a number of commodity and there are a couple of industries that are so integrated
    0:32:00 that it’s hard to see why for us competitiveness, let alone North American competitiveness, it
    0:32:01 makes sense to pull them apart.
    0:32:03 That would be our argument.
    0:32:08 And then there’s other industries, uh, forest products, uh, steel, aluminum as three big examples
    0:32:11 where we’re, uh, uh, agriculture potash.
    0:32:12 I gave that example, nickel.
    0:32:17 I could go on where we’re such huge suppliers and such a safe, secure supplier.
    0:32:23 Again, it doesn’t really to us make sense that that would be displaced or tariffed.
    0:32:28 So, you know, we’ve seen that this, uh, the trade policy is evolving as, uh, some of these
    0:32:30 choke points become more evident.
    0:32:33 And, uh, you know, I suspect, I suspect we will see more.
    0:32:40 Maybe I’ll say one other thing if I could, which is, it strikes me a bit in the, in the
    0:32:48 consistencies of, uh, U S policy is a desire to have some minimum tariff if possible, um,
    0:32:51 which has a revenue raising element to it.
    0:32:56 And I think, you know, tied into, uh, U S tax policy, that is, uh, that is also a possibility
    0:32:56 here.
    0:33:01 My understanding is about 99% of our trade is tariff-free and that 1% is around things
    0:33:02 like dairy.
    0:33:07 Haven’t we largely been kind of a trade-free zone between Canada and the U S today?
    0:33:08 Yeah.
    0:33:09 Yeah, we have.
    0:33:13 And then we have, you know, like any trading partners, you get the odd trade irritant and,
    0:33:17 uh, you know, trade dispute, but we have processes to deal with those.
    0:33:23 And so we had a, uh, you know, we have, uh, on, ongoing things around forest products,
    0:33:26 sometimes, uh, steel and aluminum and, you know, that’s handled.
    0:33:31 But yeah, trade is basically, uh, tariff-free and, you know, when it, when it’s your biggest
    0:33:35 trading partner, pulling that apart is, is, is quite costly.
    0:33:40 It’s costly for both, you know, from a Canadian perspective and, you know, I’m out on the road,
    0:33:41 I’m, I’m running for office.
    0:33:42 I’m talking to lots of Canadians up and down.
    0:33:49 There is a very strong sense of, yeah, this is going to cost us, but we’re willing to take
    0:33:52 the price to restructure our economy in a different direction.
    0:33:58 Like, it’s been such a sense of, uh, I mean, the word that’s used is betrayal.
    0:34:03 So, you know, we signed a deal, we’ve had this partnership, we observe it in good faith,
    0:34:07 we set up businesses, we, you know, we know lots of Americans, we like Americans, we listen to
    0:34:09 American podcasts, you know, there’s such a thing.
    0:34:15 And all of a sudden, you know, we get these, uh, you know, these attacks is, which is the
    0:34:17 way these, this is viewed is okay.
    0:34:22 So it’s going to cost us for a period of time, uh, and we’ll build out and, uh, build with
    0:34:23 others.
    0:34:26 We’ll be right back after a quick break.
    0:34:36 Unwrap the early days of your favorite hockey stars with Tim’s new retrospective rookies
    0:34:41 hockey cards featuring exclusive NHL and PWHL players and retired legends.
    0:34:45 Collect them all only at Tim’s at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time.
    0:34:53 We borrow money from Chinese peasants to buy the things those Chinese peasants manufacture.
    0:34:56 That is not a recipe for economic prosperity.
    0:35:01 Vice President J.D. Vance defending the Trump administration’s tariffs on China hit China
    0:35:03 squarely below the belt.
    0:35:05 And China hit back with memes.
    0:35:06 Cue music.
    0:35:16 Americans on assembly lines at sewing machines in fields, eating chips, drinking Coke, looking
    0:35:19 ill-prepared for factory work, to put it politely, which the memes are not.
    0:35:24 China’s argument since this trade war began is that America cannot win it.
    0:35:27 China is tougher, more resilient, and better prepared.
    0:35:35 On Today Explained, as this trade war escalates, we ask, what if that’s true?
    0:35:42 Today Explained, every weekday.
    0:35:52 The regular season’s in the rearview, and now it’s time for the games that matter the most.
    0:35:55 This is Kenny Beecham, and playoff basketball is finally here.
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    0:36:03 adjustment that can make or break a championship run.
    0:36:05 Who’s building for a 16-win marathon?
    0:36:07 Which superstar will submit their legacy?
    0:36:11 And which role player is about to become a household name?
    0:36:15 With so many fascinating first-round matchups, will the West be the bloodbath we anticipate?
    0:36:18 Will the East be as predictable as we think?
    0:36:19 Can the Celtics defend their title?
    0:36:24 Can Steph Curry, LeBron James, Kawhi Leonard push the young teams at the top?
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    0:36:29 time of the NBA calendar.
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    0:36:39 Don’t miss Small Ball with Kenny Beecham.
    0:36:41 New episodes dropping through the playoffs.
    0:36:44 Available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.
    0:36:56 You were the first non-Brit to serve to run the Bank of England.
    0:36:59 You’re sort of the Bo Jackson of global economic leadership.
    0:37:05 I’ve compared this, and it might be a crude analogy, but I want you to add some color or
    0:37:06 fill in the blanks here.
    0:37:11 I’ve described these tariffs as the biggest own goal since Brexit.
    0:37:18 What similarities do you see, and how does that inform how you respond to this and be what
    0:37:19 you think ultimately the outcome is?
    0:37:24 Well, I think there are a lot of similarities.
    0:37:28 And it starts with the economics of what’s happening.
    0:37:33 Actually, briefly describe Brexit, because just give us the headline news on Brexit.
    0:37:38 So the headline on Brexit is for a variety of reasons, and many of them not to do with
    0:37:41 economics, although it was sold as an economic, you know, win.
    0:37:49 But a lot of people, you know, because of reasons of identity and others, voted in 2018, if I’ll
    0:37:50 get my dates right, 2016, I guess.
    0:37:51 No.
    0:37:54 For the UK to leave the European Union.
    0:37:59 And the UK was even more tightly bound in trade and economic relationships with the European
    0:38:04 Union than Canada is with the United States, including free movement of labor, easy movement
    0:38:08 of the capital, huge trade going both ways.
    0:38:10 And you never had to get your product.
    0:38:14 If your product met the product standard in the UK, you didn’t have to worry about it.
    0:38:15 You could sell to any country in Europe.
    0:38:21 And so the decision taken, as I say, for a variety of reasons, narrowly, but taken to leave
    0:38:22 the European Union.
    0:38:26 And I remember when it happened, in our view at the time, and remember, this was during
    0:38:31 a period where it was interest rates were at rock bottom, inflation was too low, people
    0:38:32 were worried about deflation, blah, blah.
    0:38:37 Our view was, okay, what’s going to happen is the economy is going to slow, unemployment’s
    0:38:41 going to go up, inflation’s going to go up, and we at the Bank of England are going to have
    0:38:43 to raise interest rates when this happens.
    0:38:45 And by the way, the currency will also go down.
    0:38:47 The currency went down by 20, 25%.
    0:38:50 It’s still on the floor relative to where it was.
    0:38:56 Still on the floor because you had a big negative trade shock, a big loss of wealth, basically,
    0:38:57 future wealth.
    0:38:58 And the currency market priced it first.
    0:39:02 And exactly what we expected to happen, happened.
    0:39:06 I mean, it happened to happen roughly at the same time as COVID was finishing.
    0:39:12 But you had a big, again, I’m relying on your audience, a big negative supply shock to the
    0:39:18 economy because you ripped up trading relationships and the productive capacity went down relative to
    0:39:19 where demand was.
    0:39:21 So that was inflationary.
    0:39:26 And a combination of that meant UK rates are higher and it’s got a bigger inflation problem
    0:39:28 it has had than other economies.
    0:39:33 When you look at what’s happening in the US, the friction put into its trading relationships
    0:39:35 is going to cause the same thing.
    0:39:39 It is going to slow the rate of growth of that economy.
    0:39:41 It is going to affect the dollar.
    0:39:44 It has affected the dollar negatively, as we’ve seen.
    0:39:46 It’s going to push up prices on the margin.
    0:39:52 And so slower economy, higher inflation, higher interest rates, all things being equal.
    0:39:57 Now, there’s a big caveat with what I did, or there’s a qualifier is a better way to put
    0:39:57 it.
    0:40:02 The UK was a much more open economy, much more dependent on Europe.
    0:40:05 The US is more of a closed economy.
    0:40:08 It depends on the world, but it is, it’s different orders of magnitude.
    0:40:10 So it’s same direction, different orders of magnitude.
    0:40:15 So there’s, I think there are a lot of, a lot of parallels here, and I guess maybe the
    0:40:19 other parallel, if I can add one more, which remains to be seen.
    0:40:25 But the UK, I would say, and you’ll get, I’ll get hate mail from UK, some UK listeners, but
    0:40:31 I would say based on the polling, it’s pretty well understood that the economic impact of Brexit
    0:40:32 has been negative in the UK.
    0:40:36 Let’s say two thirds of the people now understand that.
    0:40:41 But the path back to being closer to Europe is very difficult politically.
    0:40:43 It’s hard to build, rebuild that consensus.
    0:40:44 They move very slowly.
    0:40:50 And you think about the situation in the world right now for the UK, boy, there’s a lot of
    0:40:55 logic being closer to Europe from a trade perspective.
    0:41:00 And even from a security perspective, they built this sort of what’s called a coalition
    0:41:05 of the willing with respect to Ukraine, because the UK, the US is pulling back from support
    0:41:05 for Ukraine.
    0:41:10 By the way, Canada has stepped up and is part of that largely European coalition of the willing
    0:41:11 alongside Australia.
    0:41:14 So there’s a logic to going back to that.
    0:41:16 But it’s hard to go back once you’ve broken up these relationships.
    0:41:22 And, you know, so the next six, 12 months, in my judgment, are going to be quite important
    0:41:25 for the United States and for the global trading system.
    0:41:32 Because the question is, OK, we understand that there is a big change, a big break with the
    0:41:32 old system.
    0:41:34 But how much of a break is it going to be?
    0:41:41 And is there going to be a relatively open trading system for, I’m using quotations here
    0:41:44 for those listening, like-minded countries, broadly like-minded countries?
    0:41:49 You know, I think of the G7 as being pretty like-minded countries, not surprisingly.
    0:41:53 You know, we value liberty, free speech, open markets in general.
    0:41:57 So are we going to have a relatively open system amongst ourselves?
    0:42:01 Or is it only going to be with a few countries?
    0:42:02 Or is it going to be with no countries?
    0:42:04 I mean, that’s kind of what to play for here.
    0:42:10 And, but the system won’t, it won’t revert to what it was previously.
    0:42:18 When we’re talking about these tariffs, there’s a general sense that, or at least a talk track
    0:42:24 from the Trump administration that the U.S. has been taken advantage of by its trading partners,
    0:42:29 including Canada, that they’ve just got the better end of the deal and that tariffs will
    0:42:34 help restore some sort of parity or equity in the relationship and respond to that.
    0:42:38 Well, I mean, we don’t, obviously we don’t see it.
    0:42:45 We don’t see it in the following respects, because really, again, the way the Trump administration
    0:42:49 has defined being, quote, taken advantage of is, do you run a trade deficit?
    0:42:53 And we can argue about that definition.
    0:42:58 I wouldn’t, if I lead on my economic training and my experience, I would say, well, that isn’t
    0:43:01 being taken advantage of, it’s mutual exchange.
    0:43:04 But the U.S. runs a surplus with us.
    0:43:06 The U.S. sells more to us.
    0:43:09 If anyone’s being taken advantage of, we’re being taken advantage of, right?
    0:43:11 Because, I mean, by that definition.
    0:43:17 And the only place where they run a deficit is, yes, we do ship oil to the United States.
    0:43:22 Now, we happen to ship oil to the United States at a big discount to global prices.
    0:43:30 So we’re being taken advantage of, again, on that definition, on the goods trade side.
    0:43:33 And we’re getting taken advantage because we’re selling oil at below good prices.
    0:43:35 So we, you know, we want our money back.
    0:43:36 No, we don’t.
    0:43:39 We still see the broader benefits of the relationship.
    0:43:44 And, you know, I don’t think that, I’ll go back to the auto sector.
    0:43:51 It’s not going to feel taken advantage of, as if these tariffs stay in place.
    0:43:56 And, you know, as you say, you got to check your phone every once in a while just to see
    0:43:57 where things stand.
    0:44:02 There’s a possible exemption on the auto parts side that’s coming in in the United States,
    0:44:07 which we would have said right, well, we did say right from the start would have to happen
    0:44:10 because the whole system will grind to a halt without it.
    0:44:15 So some of the mutual advantages will become more, are becoming more apparent.
    0:44:19 And hopefully the U.S. administration can continue to be nimble.
    0:44:25 My understanding is that you ship us cheap energy or cheap oil.
    0:44:27 You’re obviously a very resource abundant nation.
    0:44:32 We apply our IP and refining capability and then we sell it at three times the cost.
    0:44:34 It sounds like it’s been pretty mutually beneficial.
    0:44:36 Yeah, no, that’s absolutely right.
    0:44:39 How do you see this playing out?
    0:44:45 If you were tempted to speculate what the relationship is around global trade and tariffs
    0:44:49 on a macro level and then specifically with Canada and the U.S.,
    0:44:55 when you try to plan an economy similar to the way the CEO tries to plan a business,
    0:44:58 what are you expecting?
    0:44:59 You have to do scenario planning.
    0:45:00 Nobody knows.
    0:45:03 But what do you think are the most likely scenarios for how this plays out?
    0:45:09 Because I mean this sincerely, Prime Minister, we’re all befuddled by this.
    0:45:14 The majority of people who understand economics are having a difficult time seeing how this
    0:45:16 is a big win for the U.S.
    0:45:20 We’re just, we’re having a difficult time understanding how we win here.
    0:45:26 Maybe more people come to the, they claim there’s 75 nations lining up to cut deals with them.
    0:45:31 Is that the sense you get, that nations are lining up to cut a deal with us right now?
    0:45:39 Well, the short answer, I, I, I don’t know the, I don’t know is on that second question.
    0:45:42 There’s a few things that happen here.
    0:45:48 One is that there’s a risk premium in U.S. assets that wasn’t there before.
    0:45:51 And the question is, how big is that risk premium going to sell?
    0:45:52 Where is it going to sell?
    0:46:00 And, and that in part is going to depend on how coherent the new system is, you know,
    0:46:07 and, and is there, does the U.S. credibly commit to a new system or a series of deals?
    0:46:12 Remember, we’re, you know, we have a, we have a trading deal with U.S. that was signed by the
    0:46:17 current president, um, and, uh, and which, which isn’t being, you know, observed.
    0:46:20 So, so I think that’s one thing is there’s a risk premium on U.S. assets.
    0:46:25 And if there’s a risk premium on U.S. assets, then the cost of all other assets around the world
    0:46:26 is greater, right?
    0:46:30 Like since we’re still priced off of, uh, priced off of U.S. treasuries, for example.
    0:46:31 So that’s one thing.
    0:46:37 I think second is, um, I do believe that there are a series of like-minded countries.
    0:46:42 We very much like the U.S. to be part of that group, but like-minded countries who will develop
    0:46:45 deeper trading and security relationships as a consequence of this.
    0:46:47 Uh, it’s the world of second best.
    0:46:51 It’s not what we would all want, but it’s the logical thing to do.
    0:46:57 Third thing that’s going to happen is that, um, there is going to be much greater focus.
    0:47:01 And I know this for a fact, and well, this will be a fact if, if, if, uh, my party is
    0:47:06 successful in the elections, uh, a much greater focus on, uh, domestic drivers of demand.
    0:47:10 So building at home, building big infrastructure, building millions of houses, building, you know,
    0:47:16 building out our own economies, um, more, more, uh, domestic procurement, right?
    0:47:22 In a world where we’ve got excess steel and aluminum capacity, which we will, uh, if the
    0:47:25 U.S. doesn’t change on trade, well, guess who’s steel and aluminum we’re going to buy?
    0:47:31 Um, uh, for a variety of things, uh, guess what defense procurement we’re going to do?
    0:47:38 Uh, you know, right now we spend about 75% of our defense dollars go to the United States.
    0:47:45 That, you know, doesn’t make a lot of sense, uh, if we settle out in a, in a more, um,
    0:47:48 arm’s length relationship with the U S and that’s true.
    0:47:50 If it’s true for us, it’s true for Europe.
    0:47:51 It’s true for the UK.
    0:47:58 Um, and so we’ll all move more domestic and more with each other and the degree to which
    0:47:59 that happens.
    0:48:01 So this is a world just to be clear.
    0:48:05 And you, uh, I think you intuitively understand what you get this from the start.
    0:48:08 We’ve got a world where we have higher risk premia, right?
    0:48:10 It’s cost of capital is more expensive.
    0:48:14 And we’ve got a world where people are doing second best things.
    0:48:15 Countries are doing second best things.
    0:48:19 So it’s a world that’s more expensive and it’s more, it’s not our target.
    0:48:24 To use a fancy word, like it’s not totally in and of yourself, but it’s, you’re putting
    0:48:28 a much greater emphasis on, uh, taking care of yourself.
    0:48:33 Um, uh, we’ll do that and we’ll do it with like-minded countries and, uh, uh, and move
    0:48:34 forward.
    0:48:39 The surveys I’ve read said that two thirds of Americans still think of Canada as an ally.
    0:48:42 We’re sort of like, oh, you know, Trump, let boys will be boys.
    0:48:48 We still love Canadians, but two thirds plus of Canadians no longer see the U S as an ally.
    0:48:54 I mean, quite frankly, it feels like Canadians are just pissed off that they feel the term
    0:49:00 used was betrayed and that even if we’re, even if we’re able to establish, go back to
    0:49:05 normal, hasn’t the knife, you know, isn’t it the knife gets pulled halfway out of the back,
    0:49:07 but this injury takes years or decades to fail.
    0:49:15 I mean, what is the vibe, if you will, around how Canadians feel about Americans and how long
    0:49:18 do you think it gets, it takes us to repair this relationship?
    0:49:20 I certainly recognize those figures.
    0:49:29 Um, there is a feeling here that, uh, that the, it’s the actions of the U S there’s, there’s
    0:49:29 several things.
    0:49:31 One is the trade actions.
    0:49:35 Secondly, was this long period and I’m, I’m not going to repeat the phrases that were used,
    0:49:41 but these threats to our sovereignty are very sovereignty, which, you know, kind of unique.
    0:49:45 There’s us in Denmark who’ve suffered actual threats to sovereignty.
    0:49:50 I guess Panama, we roll ourselves in with that and that’s, you know, on your hierarchy of
    0:49:54 betrayals, threatening somebody else’s sovereignty is pretty much the top.
    0:49:57 Uh, I guess the top is acting on that threat.
    0:50:00 Um, so, uh, uh, so that’s all mixed in.
    0:50:08 Um, I think secondly, what has been striking has been the relatively muted response in the
    0:50:13 broader U S to these steps, right?
    0:50:19 Um, you know, the CEO class, if I can put it that way, the other major influencers, stakeholders
    0:50:24 and the, uh, that’s changing a bit, but it was pretty quiet for a long period of time.
    0:50:30 Um, so, you know, and when you look at that from this side of the border, you think, oh, okay,
    0:50:34 well, this is more deeply held or the friendship is less firmly rooted.
    0:50:36 It’s like any relationship.
    0:50:42 I think if it’s, uh, when you have a, a loss of trust, it, you know, it can be repaired to
    0:50:43 a degree.
    0:50:47 It takes a period of time and it takes action to replace that, you know, it’s more than
    0:50:48 more than fine words.
    0:50:56 I, I think that, uh, that action can start with, uh, in May, the prime minister of Canada
    0:50:58 at that point, we’ll meet with, uh, with president Trump.
    0:51:01 Uh, I want to be the prime minister of Canada at that point.
    0:51:04 I’m working hard to get there, but, uh, uh, uh, and they’ll sit down and say,
    0:51:10 start a process of, um, redefining that relationship and, and, and building trust out from that.
    0:51:12 We’ll be right back.
    0:51:27 It really seems like tariffs are about to make just about everything more expensive.
    0:51:32 And so this week on the Vergecast, we’re trying to figure out not only which gadgets do you need
    0:51:38 to buy right now before they get more expensive, but also what can tech companies big and small
    0:51:44 do to cope in complicated, uncertain times when it seems like nothing makes sense and the money
    0:51:48 changes every day and all they want to do is ship gadgets.
    0:51:54 The future of gadgets in a tariff world all this week on the Vergecast, wherever you get podcasts.
    0:52:01 Looking for a political show that doesn’t scream from the extremes?
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    0:53:34 By the way, I absolutely love Vivian Tu.
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    0:53:46 We’re back with more from Prime Minister Carney.
    0:54:00 So just as a means of not or taking advantage of the fact that we have you on this podcast, we have real problems in the U.S. around income inequality.
    0:54:06 For the first time in our nation’s history, a 30-year-old isn’t doing as well as her parents was at 30.
    0:54:09 Tremendous polarization politically.
    0:54:10 People just don’t like each other.
    0:54:13 I mean, I would argue that comparatively the nation’s actually done quite well.
    0:54:17 But what ails us, the call is coming from inside of the house.
    0:54:19 We don’t like each other within America.
    0:54:25 You’re asked to be a journeyman and come be Treasury Secretary or head of the Fed.
    0:54:30 What policy plans do you think the U.S. should adopt?
    0:54:37 And then I want to use that as a jumping off point to what are the biggest economic challenges the candidate faces and how you plan to address them.
    0:54:43 Well, I think the, okay, you go to the heart of, I mean, that’s a big, big question.
    0:54:45 I guess the way I look at it as follows.
    0:54:48 I mean, I’m going to come at this from an odd angle maybe.
    0:54:58 But when I look at what’s going to drive economic prosperity, productivity, growth for the next 25 years, what are the big drivers of that?
    0:55:00 I’d put down three big drivers.
    0:55:01 AI, no insight.
    0:55:03 I’d put it at the top of the list.
    0:55:07 Probably the life sciences revolution where I’m less expert.
    0:55:10 And I would put carbon.
    0:55:12 I would put drive towards lower carbon.
    0:55:19 The U.S. has taken a step back from that for the moment, but it’s going to come back because the underlying issues around are there.
    0:55:28 And so, okay, if those are some of the big things that are going to drive economies going forward, and the U.S. can have mastery in all of those.
    0:55:40 But the question is how broadly that’s going to be shared within the U.S. across various social strata and how ready people are going to be to take advantage of it, right?
    0:55:50 So, you know, is AI going to be, you know, purely an elite or largely an elite operation, or is AI going to be used to train a lot of people to do a number of things?
    0:56:10 I mean, I know that sounds very Panglossian or, you know, techno-optimistic, but it is, the question is whether it’s a deliberate policy that’s steered by the federal and local governments in a way that are going to ensure that, you know, in Appalachia, you’re learning skills that are consistent with that.
    0:56:18 And or, you know, the energy transition over time, but it’s not a term that’s used anymore in the U.S. as far as I can tell, but it will come back.
    0:56:24 If I can flip it back, Scott, to us, we have the same set of issues or set of drivers.
    0:56:25 Those are global drivers.
    0:56:29 On top of that, we have a series of things such as I mentioned critical minerals.
    0:56:30 We have large conventional energy.
    0:56:36 So how are we balancing all that in a way that builds the jobs as we move out?
    0:56:41 One of the things, I’ll say two other things which are related but distinct.
    0:56:44 We got to sort out our housing issues in this country.
    0:56:53 We have a massive economic, we have absolute social need, but we have a massive economic opportunity to create a new industry, new way of building houses and at scale and driving that.
    0:56:55 And we’re going to, we’re going to shoot on that.
    0:57:09 And I guess the last thing I’d say, which candidly worries me a bit about the United States and gives me greater comfort or strength in Canada is a word I’m not sure you’d like to use anymore, which is around diversity.
    0:57:15 We have a huge, huge opportunity here because we’re one of the most diverse countries in the world.
    0:57:20 We value diversity, we get a very strong sense of equal rights in a broad sense.
    0:57:22 We can be a magnet for talent.
    0:57:33 And as the U.S. is pushing out brains, if you will, and, you know, it’s quite a hostile environment in the academic world in the United States now, we can take advantage of that.
    0:57:40 And then that cascades down through, you know, the AI revolution, life sciences, other elements.
    0:57:43 Broadcasters, creative class, Scott, come up here.
    0:57:46 Whether it’s now, it’s now above zero.
    0:57:49 Creative has done a lot of work in that sentence, prime minister.
    0:57:54 So the, look, you have a housing crisis, we have a housing crisis.
    0:57:58 And it seems like leaders have agreed that it’s a crisis for the last 10 years.
    0:58:04 Now, I read that housing in Vancouver is a percentage of the average salary is the third most expensive city in the world.
    0:58:08 And that so much of it is in zoning and nimbyism.
    0:58:15 And you’re, the previous prime minister, you know, they wanted to address the housing crisis.
    0:58:17 What’s the friction point?
    0:58:18 Is it capital?
    0:58:18 Is it labor?
    0:58:19 Is it zoning?
    0:58:25 What is different about what you’re proposing that is going to register any more progress than previous administrations?
    0:58:28 So it’s, it’s all of the above.
    0:58:31 And so you attack it in a, in a comprehensive way.
    0:58:37 I’m going to simplify in terms of restriction zoning development charges.
    0:58:39 And we work at multiple levels of government.
    0:58:41 It’s part of the reason why those costs are there.
    0:58:42 They come from the municipal side.
    0:58:50 And so in effect, we put up a bunch of money, just put up a bunch of money to commit, to cut the development charges in half.
    0:58:50 Okay.
    0:59:00 So that, and that’s subject to a series of other restrictions being removed, but we will, we at the federal level, we’ll, we’ll pay for that to, to be cut in half.
    0:59:11 The second thing, uh, I mean, we believe very strongly that, uh, I mean, productivity for, in the Canadian housing, uh, sector construction sector basically is flatlined for the last 20 years.
    0:59:11 Okay.
    0:59:13 We’re still building houses like we did before.
    0:59:20 And given the scale of what we need to do, you know, we got to move much more rapidly, particularly in urban density and other things.
    0:59:27 So, you know, modular prefab housing, um, mass timber, other innovations that are there, they exist.
    0:59:33 And so one of the things we’re going to do to kickstart that industry, and this is Canada’s, not the United States.
    0:59:35 We have a different attitude toward these things.
    0:59:39 We have a problem with, uh, deeply affordable housing, right?
    0:59:42 Social, certain countries you might call social housing.
    0:59:47 Uh, we’ve, we, we just have not built that for decades, basically in effect.
    0:59:49 And so we need to, we need to catch up.
    0:59:56 And so what we’re doing, part of what we’re doing is we’re going to build huge amount at that level.
    1:00:13 And set the, the, the, the, the specs, if you will, for that we’re going to build and we’re going to build by, you know, on our balance sheet or as a developer, and we’ll set the specs for that, which drive the industry upstream in prefab, mass timber, et cetera, which gets the economies to scale there.
    1:00:19 Um, but by and large, we will rely on private sector build, uh, we’ll make a bunch of land available.
    1:00:28 We’ll make cheap capital, 25 billion, uh, for developers in this case, which is bigger money up here, cut those development charges in half, drive that.
    1:00:33 And then we will give tax breaks to people buying their first time home.
    1:00:40 So basically they’re getting 5% off their first, first time home, which, you know, from a down payment perspective starts, starts to add up.
    1:00:45 So attacking it both on the supply demand side, the way we look at it is.
    1:00:55 This is generational, like the scale of the problem is generational such that we are building out a huge pipeline of apprentices in the skilled trades.
    1:01:03 And one of the core messages I give virtually every time I speak, so I’m going to do it now is this is going to be a great time for a career in the skilled trades in Canada.
    1:01:06 Cause we’re going to build for the next 25, 30 years.
    1:01:09 Like we are going to add, if we get this right.
    1:01:13 And we intend to three to four points of GDP of investment.
    1:01:15 That’s a huge number, right?
    1:01:15 It’s possible.
    1:01:19 We used to invest at that scale relative to GDP in the early seventies.
    1:01:20 We can do it again.
    1:01:21 You know, we can finance it.
    1:01:23 Um, we got all the pension funds.
    1:01:27 We’ve got lots of money to finance it, but we need to, we need to kickstart it.
    1:01:30 And of course it’s not, it’s housing is we start with housing.
    1:01:34 It’s not just housing, it’s energy, it’s other, other elements, but that’s what we’re going to do.
    1:01:39 So we want to get young people into the skilled trades at scale.
    1:01:41 We’re going to pay for all their apprenticeships.
    1:01:43 We’re going to work with the unions to pull them through.
    1:01:48 We’re adding a bunch of capacity at post-secondary education so they can get these trades at a scale.
    1:01:53 So we’re getting the hundreds of thousands, which again, in the U S doesn’t seem like a lot, but in Canada, these are big numbers.
    1:01:56 Let’s talk a little bit about climate and energy.
    1:02:06 You’ve evolved, uh, from being a climate finance advocate to scrapping the consumer carbon tax and calling for Canada to be an energy superpower.
    1:02:08 How have your views changed on this?
    1:02:12 Uh, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say my views have changed, uh, to be honest.
    1:02:15 So, I mean, it’s, uh, it’s very results oriented.
    1:02:22 So the consumer carbon tax, uh, in Canada was responsible for about 6% of our emissions reductions.
    1:02:26 So 94% of the work was being done elsewhere.
    1:02:33 Now it sent a signal to households, but it, it, it just wasn’t that important.
    1:02:41 Um, but it was quite divisive because people, you know, viewed it as a tax and they, they saw the tax with the tax.
    1:02:44 They didn’t all give credit to the rebates that they were getting.
    1:02:48 And so it politically, it was unhelpful, was undercutting the overall message.
    1:02:52 So we got rid of that, um, uh, a few months ago.
    1:02:54 Um, it was the first thing I did actually, when I got into office.
    1:03:02 Um, but what we, what we are doing is making sure that the carbon market for large emitters works well.
    1:03:07 So, and that, um, and, and we’re large emitters work well.
    1:03:21 And as a consequence of that, we’re getting them in effect to pay people for this, what will happen if we’re elected to pay people for, you know, driving EVs, retrofitting their homes, uh, uh, the other, you know, climate smart choices.
    1:03:31 And then on top of that, there is a big element, uh, uh, big IRA type element to our climate strategy, investment tax and credits and others.
    1:03:41 So we’re looking basically and having, you know, reasonable success with this, where we’re putting out, you know, a dollar federally, and we’re getting four to $5 of private investment on top of that.
    1:03:56 Um, and you know, what’s really relevant to us, aside from caring about the climate and people up here do care about the climate as a whole, um, is that we think that this is going to be a fundamental driver of competitiveness.
    1:04:02 And if you look at who we’re going to be trading with more over time, Europeans, the Brits, others, guess what?
    1:04:03 They care about this.
    1:04:08 In fact, as you know, with carbon border adjustment mechanism is coming into, in Europe.
    1:04:15 And so we take a view that, okay, we’ve got to do this medium long-term for competitiveness because that’s where the world’s going.
    1:04:18 Secondly, the Europeans and others are going to want us to do this.
    1:04:21 Thirdly, actually, we’ve got a lot of the technology.
    1:04:25 So part of being an energy superpower is around small modular reactors.
    1:04:29 Um, I mean, we’re a big hydropower, uh, we’re decent on hydrogen.
    1:04:33 We could get better carbon capture and storage, all these things we can do.
    1:04:36 And I guess the last point, which goes back to the U.S.
    1:04:40 Is, you know, right now, and I’m going to grossly generalize, the U.S. doesn’t care about climate.
    1:04:42 Six months ago, it cared about climate.
    1:04:43 Guess what?
    1:04:45 You’re going to care about climate again down the road.
    1:04:54 And when you care about climate down the road again, we want to be in a position where we’re much more competitive, uh, and maybe have leapfrogged a number of U.S. companies.
    1:04:57 So I just want to do a quick lightning round.
    1:04:59 Advice to your 25-year-old self.
    1:05:03 You got 10, 15 seconds with your 25-year-old self.
    1:05:04 What would you say to yourself?
    1:05:06 Uh, you know, relax.
    1:05:09 It’s, uh, and, and, and stay focused on what you like.
    1:05:13 I mean, I’ve probably spent more time doing things I didn’t really love than, uh, I should have.
    1:05:19 Uh, you got a chance to go back and meet with someone who you’ve lost or who’s no longer around.
    1:05:21 Who would that person be, and what would you say to them?
    1:05:26 Well, I think with, I, you know, be my, I’d be my father.
    1:05:26 I’d say I love him.
    1:05:33 You’re at the end of your life, not going to walk on the beach again, not going to get to hang out with your wife, your kids.
    1:05:35 What does success look like for you?
    1:05:38 When you, when you look back, what is the box you want to have checked?
    1:05:49 I think strongly the answer to that is that you’re, you’re proud of the values of, of your children and people who’ve worked with you.
    1:06:01 I mean, I think that is the only real legacy, the extent to which you have influenced how others treat others in the world and, and, and how they, how they, how they react in the world.
    1:06:06 That’s, I wrote a book and that was the, uh, that was the conclusion of that.
    1:06:12 Mark Carney is Canada’s 24th prime minister and leader of the liberal party sworn in this March.
    1:06:21 Uh, as an economist, uh, prime minister Carney steered the bank of Canada through the financial crisis and later became the first non-Brit to run the bank of England.
    1:06:27 Between those roles, she served as UN special envoy to climate action and finance and as vice chair of Brookfield asset management.
    1:06:33 I’ve trust a lot of Canadians are listening and I feel comfortable speaking for a lot of people.
    1:06:38 And that is Americans understand the largest undefended border in the world is the U S Canadian border.
    1:06:39 That’s for a reason.
    1:06:49 I love that question that, uh, uh, Warren Buffett’s friend was a, uh, Holocaust survivor said the way I judge my friends is I asked one question who would hide me.
    1:06:53 A lot of Americans remember that Canadians hit Americans in the Iran hostage crisis.
    1:07:04 And I hope that, uh, your listeners and your voters recognize there is a huge swath of Americans that think of you, not as, not as even as a friend, but as siblings.
    1:07:15 And that we, uh, we hope and are committed to maintaining what is arguably the, one of the strongest alliances in history that I don’t want to say, don’t take what’s going on seriously.
    1:07:22 You have to, but there are a lot of Americans down here who are, who are brothers and sisters in arms in Canada.
    1:07:25 You, we really do think of you as, uh, as a sibling.
    1:07:28 Thank you, Scott.
    1:07:45 Algebra of happiness, porn.
    1:07:50 Uh, it’s something there’s not a lot of research on because no one wants to be known as the porn professor.
    1:07:56 I spoke with Dr. Anna Lemke, I believe on this podcast, and it strikes me.
    1:07:59 I’m meeting more and more people who have are struggling with an addiction to porn.
    1:08:05 And what I would suggest is to tell people not to engage in porn is a little bit unrealistic.
    1:08:10 That’s like telling someone to go stop drinking, which my doctor told me when I had high blood pressure a few months ago.
    1:08:11 And I’m like, yeah, that’s going to happen.
    1:08:12 I’ll reduce my drinking.
    1:08:13 Why don’t we stop there?
    1:08:18 Anyways, it’s not about my high blood pressure, which by the way is under, under control now.
    1:08:19 That’s good news.
    1:08:23 Hard to imagine me with high blood pressure at the age of 40, 60.
    1:08:32 Anyways, I think sexual desire and that want and that hunger, if channeled correctly, can make you a much better man.
    1:08:35 And the last thing you want to do is reduce that fire and that hunger.
    1:08:42 And that is wanting to mate, wanting to be attractive such that you can find a partner to have a relationship and ultimately possibly have sex with.
    1:08:50 I think if channeled correctly, and it usually, in my opinion, usually is channeled correctly, can make you want to be and become a better man.
    1:08:58 And so anything that dampens those fires, whether it’s additional porn consumption or depression, that’s just a bad idea.
    1:09:08 Because life is about taking risks, and because women pay a much greater downside or have much greater downside risk from sex, specifically pregnancy, than men.
    1:09:11 I mean, they’re in it for 25 years if they get pregnant.
    1:09:13 We’re in it for at least seven seconds, right?
    1:09:16 And I’m not suggesting anyone engage in male abandonment.
    1:09:18 But the downside risks for women are just much greater.
    1:09:22 So as a result, they have a much finer filter, meaning they are choosier than men.
    1:09:22 Okay, fine.
    1:09:25 But there’s an upside to that.
    1:09:31 And that is if you want to have a relationship with somebody, it forces you or inspires you to be a better man.
    1:09:33 Maybe you work out a little bit more.
    1:09:34 Maybe you have a plan.
    1:09:37 You articulate a plan around economic viability.
    1:09:39 Maybe you learn how to open.
    1:09:41 You learn how to take risks.
    1:09:48 The most frightening piece of data I’ve seen recently is that 51% of men, 18 to 24, have never asked a woman out in person.
    1:09:52 That is so upsetting for me.
    1:10:01 I think a lot of the skills you develop and the characteristics you develop around trying to find a mate make you a better man across a number of dimensions.
    1:10:03 You develop a sense of resilience.
    1:10:06 If you want to ask a lot of women out, get used to rejection.
    1:10:12 And if you want to be successful in the world of mating, much less professionally, get used to rejection.
    1:10:13 That is a skill.
    1:10:15 Learn how to talk to strangers.
    1:10:16 Learn how to open.
    1:10:17 Learn how to smell nice.
    1:10:19 Learn how to not have bad breath.
    1:10:22 Learn how to groom yourself.
    1:10:27 Be able to articulate a plan for why you might someday be able to take care of children.
    1:10:31 Show that you’re disciplined and you work out, which means you show up.
    1:10:33 These things make you a better man.
    1:10:42 And anything that reduces the hunger, the desire, the drive, the fire to make you a better man, you want to modulate it.
    1:10:49 In sum, I’m not going to tell you not to consume porn, but my brothers, you want that fire to stay alive.
    1:10:57 I think a big part of the reason I graduated from college, quite frankly, is I used to go on campus every day because I wanted to see my friends at North Campus UCLA.
    1:11:03 And also there was a non-zero probability that I might meet someone that ultimately I might have a romantic relationship with.
    1:11:04 And that was very motivating.
    1:11:10 And had I had on-demand porn on my phone and my computer, I don’t know if I would have gone on campus as much.
    1:11:18 And with a 2.27 GPA, it wouldn’t have taken a lot of less campus presence for me not to have graduated from college.
    1:11:19 So what’s the bottom line?
    1:11:21 Porn, okay.
    1:11:23 But modulate.
    1:11:30 That fire, that desire can be channeled and should be channeled into making you a better man.
    1:11:36 This episode was produced by Jennifer Sanchez.
    1:11:38 Our intern is Dan Chalon.
    1:11:40 Drew Burrows is our technical director.
    1:11:43 Thank you for listening to the Prop G Pod from the Vox Media Podcast Network.
    1:11:48 We will catch you on Saturday for No Mercy, No Malice, as read by George Hahn.
    1:11:54 And please follow our Prop G Markets pod wherever you get your pods for new episodes every Monday and Thursday.

    Mark Carney, Canada’s 24th Prime Minister and leader of the Liberal Party, joins Scott to discuss the country’s economic outlook, how Canada fits into a shifting global order, and whether the U.S.-Canada relationship can be repaired amid rising trade tensions.

    Follow Mark Carney, @MarkJCarney.

    Algebra of Happiness: thoughts on porn.

    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

  • Essentials: How to Build Endurance

    中文
    Tiếng Việt
    中文
    Tiếng Việt
    AI transcript
    0:00:02 Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials,
    0:00:04 where we revisit past episodes
    0:00:07 for the most potent and actionable science-based tools
    0:00:09 for mental health, physical health, and performance.
    0:00:12 I’m Andrew Huberman,
    0:00:15 and I’m a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology
    0:00:16 at Stanford School of Medicine.
    0:00:19 This podcast is separate from my teaching
    0:00:20 and research roles at Stanford.
    0:00:23 It is, however, part of my desire and effort
    0:00:25 to bring zero cost to consumer information
    0:00:27 about science and science-related tools
    0:00:28 to the general public.
    0:00:30 Today, I’d like to talk about endurance
    0:00:32 and how to build endurance
    0:00:35 and how to use endurance
    0:00:37 for the health of your entire body.
    0:00:40 Endurance, as the name suggests,
    0:00:44 is our ability to engage in continuous bouts of exercise
    0:00:49 or continuous movement or continuous effort of any kind.
    0:00:53 It is clear that cardiovascular exercise,
    0:00:56 exercise where you’re getting your heart rate up
    0:00:57 continuously for a period of time,
    0:00:59 is vital for tapping into
    0:01:03 and enhancing various aspects of our biology
    0:01:05 in the body and in the brain
    0:01:09 such that our brain can perform work
    0:01:11 for longer periods of time,
    0:01:13 focused work, learning, et cetera.
    0:01:15 The key thing to understand
    0:01:17 about energy production in the body
    0:01:19 is this thing that we call ATP.
    0:01:25 ATP is required for anything that requires energy,
    0:01:27 for anything that you do that requires effort.
    0:01:33 So our muscles and our neurons use different fuel sources
    0:01:34 to generate ATP.
    0:01:40 The ones that are used first for short bouts of intense activity
    0:01:41 are things like phosphocreatine.
    0:01:43 If you’ve only heard about creatine as a supplement,
    0:01:46 well, phosphocreatine actually exists on our muscles,
    0:01:47 and that’s why people take creatine.
    0:01:50 You can load your muscles with more creatine.
    0:01:54 Phosphocreatine is great for short, intense bouts of effort.
    0:01:57 Then you start to tap into things like glucose,
    0:01:59 which is literally just carbohydrate.
    0:02:01 It’s just sugar that’s in your blood.
    0:02:03 And then if you keep pushing,
    0:02:06 you start to tap into other fuel sources like glycogen.
    0:02:09 And you have fat stored in adipose tissue.
    0:02:12 Even if you have very, very low body fat percentage,
    0:02:17 you can extract lipids, fatty acids from that body fat.
    0:02:18 It’s like a storage pack.
    0:02:21 It is a storage pack for energy that can be converted to ATP.
    0:02:23 Without going into any more detail,
    0:02:26 when I say today energy, or I say ATP,
    0:02:30 just remember that regardless of your diet,
    0:02:32 regardless of your nutritional plan,
    0:02:36 your body has the capacity to use creatine,
    0:02:38 glucose, glycogen, lipids,
    0:02:41 and if you’re ketogenic, ketones,
    0:02:44 in order to generate fuel, energy.
    0:02:48 Now, the other crucial point is that
    0:02:51 in order to complete that process of taking these fuels
    0:02:53 and converting them into energy,
    0:02:57 most of the time, you need oxygen.
    0:03:00 You need air, basically, in your system.
    0:03:03 Now, it’s not actual air, you need oxygen molecules
    0:03:06 in your system, comes in through your mouth
    0:03:07 and your nose, goes to your lungs
    0:03:09 and distributes via the bloodstream.
    0:03:12 Oxygen is not a fuel,
    0:03:16 but like a fire that has no oxygen,
    0:03:18 you can’t actually burn the logs.
    0:03:22 But when you blow a lot of oxygen onto a fire,
    0:03:26 basically onto logs with a flame there,
    0:03:28 then basically it will take fire,
    0:03:30 it will burn, okay?
    0:03:33 Oxygen allows you to burn fuel.
    0:03:36 So today we are going to ask the critical questions.
    0:03:40 What allows us to perform?
    0:03:43 What allows us to continue effort for long periods of time?
    0:03:46 Well, we think of things like willpower,
    0:03:47 but what’s willpower?
    0:03:48 Willpower is neurons.
    0:03:50 It’s neurons in our brain.
    0:03:52 We have this thing called the central governor,
    0:03:54 which decides whether or not we should
    0:03:55 or could continue
    0:03:57 or whether or not we should stop,
    0:03:59 whether or not we should quit.
    0:04:01 So we have to ask the question,
    0:04:04 what is the limiting factor on performance?
    0:04:06 What prevents us from enduring?
    0:04:08 What prevents us from moving forward?
    0:04:10 What are the factors that say,
    0:04:11 you know what?
    0:04:11 No more.
    0:04:13 I’m not going to continue this run.
    0:04:16 There are five main categories of things
    0:04:18 that allow us to engage in effort.
    0:04:21 Now, I don’t want to completely write off things
    0:04:22 like the immune system
    0:04:24 and other systems of the body,
    0:04:27 but nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs
    0:04:30 are the five that I want to focus on today
    0:04:33 because that’s where most of the data are.
    0:04:36 Let’s talk about neurons and how they work, okay?
    0:04:37 But I want to tell you about an experiment
    0:04:40 that’s going to make it very clear
    0:04:43 why quitting is a mental thing,
    0:04:44 not a physical thing.
    0:04:46 So why do we quit?
    0:04:49 Well, an experiment was done a couple of years ago
    0:04:51 and was published in the journal Cell,
    0:04:53 Cell Press Journal, excellent journal,
    0:04:56 showing that there’s a class of neurons
    0:05:00 in our brainstem, in the back of our brain,
    0:05:05 that if they shut off, we quit.
    0:05:10 Now, these neurons release epinephrine.
    0:05:12 Epinephrine is adrenaline.
    0:05:15 And anytime we are engaged in effort of any kind,
    0:05:16 we are releasing epinephrine.
    0:05:18 Anytime we’re awake, really,
    0:05:20 we are releasing epinephrine into our brain.
    0:05:25 In fact, this little group of neurons
    0:05:26 in the back of our brain,
    0:05:28 it’s called the locus coeruleus, if you like,
    0:05:31 is churning out epinephrine all the time.
    0:05:32 But if something stresses us out,
    0:05:36 it churns out more and then it acts as kind of an alertness signal
    0:05:37 for the whole brain.
    0:05:38 We also, of course,
    0:05:41 have adrenaline epinephrine released in our body,
    0:05:42 which makes our body ready for things.
    0:05:45 So think about epinephrine as a readiness signal.
    0:05:47 And when we are engaged in effort,
    0:05:50 this readiness signal is being churned into our brain.
    0:05:52 When we’re relaxed and we’re falling asleep,
    0:05:53 epinephrine levels are low.
    0:05:59 So our desire to continue or put differently,
    0:06:03 our willingness to continue and our desire to quit
    0:06:06 is mediated by events between our two ears.
    0:06:09 Now that doesn’t mean that the body’s not involved,
    0:06:11 but it means that neurons are critically important.
    0:06:13 So we have two categories of neurons that are important.
    0:06:16 The ones in our head that tell us get up
    0:06:17 and go out and take that run.
    0:06:20 And the ones that allow us,
    0:06:22 encourage us to continue that run.
    0:06:24 And we have neurons that shut things off that say no more.
    0:06:28 And we of course have the neurons that connect to our muscles
    0:06:29 and control our muscles.
    0:06:33 But the reason we quit is rarely because our body quits,
    0:06:34 our mind quits.
    0:06:36 So when people say,
    0:06:37 is it,
    0:06:38 I hear that,
    0:06:38 you know,
    0:06:40 sports or effort or fighting,
    0:06:43 or it’s 90% mental,
    0:06:44 10% physical.
    0:06:46 That whole discussion about how much is mental,
    0:06:48 how much is physical is absolutely silly.
    0:06:52 It’s 100% nervous system.
    0:06:53 It’s neurons.
    0:06:54 Okay.
    0:06:56 So when people say mental or physical,
    0:06:59 understand it’s 100% neural.
    0:06:59 Now,
    0:07:03 what do nerves need in order to continue to fire?
    0:07:05 What do you need in order to get neurons to say,
    0:07:07 I will persist?
    0:07:07 Well,
    0:07:08 they need glucose.
    0:07:12 Unless you’re keto and ketogenic adapted,
    0:07:15 you need carbohydrate is glucose.
    0:07:17 That’s what neurons run on.
    0:07:20 And you need electrolytes.
    0:07:24 Neurons have what’s called a sodium potassium pump,
    0:07:24 blah,
    0:07:24 blah,
    0:07:24 blah.
    0:07:27 They generate electricity in order to get nerves,
    0:07:29 nerve cells to fire,
    0:07:30 to contract muscle,
    0:07:30 to say,
    0:07:31 I’m going to continue.
    0:07:37 You need sufficient sodium salt because the action potential,
    0:07:42 the actual firing of neurons is driven by sodium entering the cell,
    0:07:43 rushing into the cell.
    0:07:47 And then there’s a removal of potassium.
    0:07:54 And then there’s a kind of resetting of those levels by something called the sodium potassium pump and the sodium potassium pump and sodium and action potentials.
    0:07:56 Even if you don’t know anything about that,
    0:07:58 even if you don’t know anything about that is ATP dependent,
    0:08:00 it requires energy.
    0:08:03 So you need energy in order to get neurons to fire.
    0:08:06 And it is pH dependent.
    0:08:12 It depends on the conditions or the environment within the brain being of a certain pH or acidity.
    0:08:16 pH is about how acid or how basic the environment is.
    0:08:18 Nerves need salt.
    0:08:19 They need potassium.
    0:08:21 And it turns out they need magnesium.
    0:08:25 And you need glucose and carbohydrates in order to power those neurons,
    0:08:27 unless you are running on ketones.
    0:08:28 Muscle.
    0:08:34 Muscle is going to engage and generate energy first by using this phosphocreatine system.
    0:08:37 High bouts of effort,
    0:08:38 really intense effort,
    0:08:40 short-lived seconds to minutes,
    0:08:43 but probably more like seconds is going to be this phosphocreatine,
    0:08:45 literally a fuel source in the muscle that you’re going to burn,
    0:08:47 just like you would logs on a fire.
    0:08:49 And glycogen,
    0:08:51 which is stored carbohydrate in the muscle,
    0:08:54 they’re converting that into ATP in order to generate that energy.
    0:08:58 And then there’s stuff in our blood that’s available as an energy source.
    0:08:59 And in blood,
    0:09:00 we’ve got glucose.
    0:09:02 So literally blood sugar that’s floating around.
    0:09:04 So let’s say you have fasted for three days,
    0:09:06 your blood glucose is going to be very low.
    0:09:08 So that’s not going to be a great fuel source,
    0:09:12 but you will start to liberate fats from your adipose tissue,
    0:09:13 from your fat.
    0:09:18 Fatty acids will start to mobilize into the bloodstream and you can burn those for energy.
    0:09:19 Now,
    0:09:24 there are some other factors that are important and those are the heart,
    0:09:25 which is going to move blood.
    0:09:29 So the more that the heart can move blood and oxygen,
    0:09:30 well,
    0:09:37 the more fuel that’s going to be available for you to engage in muscular effort and thinking effort.
    0:09:41 And as I’ve mentioned oxygen a few times,
    0:09:43 it should be obvious then that the lungs are very important.
    0:09:53 You need to bring oxygen in and distribute it to all these tissues because oxygen is critical for the conversion of carbohydrates and the conversion of fats.
    0:10:04 So when we ask the question,
    0:10:06 or even moderately long bouts of effort,
    0:10:16 we need to ask which of those things, nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs is limiting or put differently, we ask what should we be doing with our neurons?
    0:10:18 what should we be doing with our muscles?
    0:10:18 What should we be doing with our muscles?
    0:10:19 What should we be doing with our blood?
    0:10:20 What should we be doing with our heart?
    0:10:22 And what should we be doing with our lungs?
    0:10:31 that’s going to allow us to build endurance for mental and physical work and to be able to go longer,
    0:10:32 further,
    0:10:33 with more intensity.
    0:10:37 I’d like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1.
    0:10:42 AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens.
    0:10:48 I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was.
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    0:10:59 and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health.
    0:11:05 Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important not only for the health of our digestion,
    0:11:10 but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators,
    0:11:12 things like dopamine and serotonin.
    0:11:15 In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function.
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    0:11:46 So, anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be,
    0:11:54 I always say AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance.
    0:11:59 If you’d like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman.
    0:12:08 For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil, along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2.
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    0:12:33 So, let’s talk about the four kinds of endurance, and how to achieve those.
    0:12:36 So, first of all, we have muscular endurance.
    0:12:56 Muscular endurance is the ability for our muscles to perform work over time, and our failure to continue to be able to perform that work is going to be due to muscular fatigue, not to cardiovascular fatigue.
    0:13:06 So, not because we’re breathing too hard, or we can’t get enough blood to the muscles, or because we quit mentally, but because the muscles themselves give out.
    0:13:07 Okay?
    0:13:28 One good example of this would be if you had to pick up a stone in the yard, and that stone is not extremely heavy for you, and you needed to do that anywhere from 50 to 100 times, and you were picking it up and putting it down and picking it up and putting it down and picking up and putting it down.
    0:13:31 At some point, at some point, your muscles will fatigue.
    0:13:41 Muscular endurance is going to be something that you can perform for anywhere from 12 to 25, or even up to 100 repetitions.
    0:13:44 So, a good example is push-ups.
    0:13:51 It’s actually no coincidence that a lot of military boot camp style training is not done with weights.
    0:13:54 It’s done with things like push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, and running.
    0:14:01 Because what they’re really building is muscular endurance, the ability to perform work repeatedly over time for a given set of muscles and neurons.
    0:14:14 So, a really good muscular endurance training protocol, according to the scientific literature, would be three to five sets of anywhere from 12 to 100 repetitions.
    0:14:16 That’s a huge range.
    0:14:23 Now, 12 to 25 repetitions is going to be more reasonable for most people.
    0:14:29 And the rest periods are going to be anywhere from 30 to 180 seconds of rest.
    0:14:32 So, anywhere from half a minute to three minutes of rest.
    0:14:40 The one critical feature of building muscular endurance is that it has no major eccentric loading component.
    0:14:50 I haven’t talked much about eccentric and concentric loading, but concentric loading is when you are shortening the muscle, typically, or lifting a weight.
    0:14:56 And eccentric movements are when you are lengthening a muscle, typically, or lowering a weight.
    0:15:02 So, if you do a pull-up and you get your chin over the bar or a chin-up, that’s the concentric portion of the effort.
    0:15:05 And then, as you lower yourself, that’s the eccentric portion.
    0:15:14 Eccentric portion of resistance training of any kind, whether or not it’s for endurance or for strength, is one of the major causes of soreness.
    0:15:23 Some people will be more susceptible to this than others, but it does create more damage in muscle fibers.
    0:15:31 Muscular endurance and building muscular endurance should not include any movements that include major eccentric loads.
    0:15:37 So, if you’re going to do push-ups, it doesn’t mean that you want to drop, you know, smash your chest into the floor.
    0:15:41 And by the way, your chest should touch the ground on every push-up.
    0:15:42 That’s a real push-up.
    0:15:45 It’s about pushing down until your chest touched the floor and straightening out.
    0:15:46 That’s a proper push-up.
    0:15:49 And a pull-up is where you pull your chin above the bar.
    0:15:54 Neither of those should include a slow eccentric or lowering component.
    0:16:06 If you are using those to train muscular endurance, the three to five sets of 12 to 25 and maybe even up to a hundred repetitions with 30 to 180 seconds of rest in between.
    0:16:13 But if you want to build muscular endurance, you want to make your muscles able to do more work for longer.
    0:16:22 It’s going to be this three to five sets of 12 to 100 reps, 30 to 180 seconds of mainly concentric movement, okay?
    0:16:27 Not a slow lowering phase or a heavy lowering phase.
    0:16:30 So, that might be kettlebell swings and things of that sort.
    0:16:34 Isometrics, as I mentioned, things like plank and wall sits will work.
    0:16:41 Now, what’s interesting about this is that it doesn’t seem at all like what people normally think of as endurance.
    0:16:55 And yet, it’s been shown in nice quality peer-reviewed studies that muscular endurance can improve our ability to engage in long bouts of what we call long duration, low intensity endurance work.
    0:17:06 So, this can support long runs, it can support long swims, and it can build also, it can build postural strength and endurance simultaneously.
    0:17:10 So, now let’s talk about the science briefly of why this works.
    0:17:16 Well, that takes us back to this issue of fuel utilization and what fails.
    0:17:25 So, if we were to say, okay, let’s say you do a plank and you’re planking for, you know, maybe you’re able to plank for a minute or two minutes or three minutes.
    0:17:27 At some point, you will fail.
    0:17:30 You’re not going to fail because the heart gives out.
    0:17:35 You’re not going to fail because you can’t get enough oxygen because you can breathe while you’re doing that.
    0:17:57 You’re going to fail because of local muscular failure, which means that as you do, if you choose to do this protocol of three to five sets, et cetera, et cetera, to build muscular endurance, mainly what you are going to be building is you’re going to be building the ability of your mitochondria to use oxygen to generate energy locally.
    0:18:03 And that it’s something called mitochondrial respiration, respiration because of the involvement of oxygen.
    0:18:15 And it’s also going to be increasing the extent to which the neurons control the muscles and provide a stimulus for the muscles to contract.
    0:18:19 But this is independent of power and strength, okay?
    0:18:33 So even though the low sets like three to five sets and the fact that you’re doing repetitions and you’re going to failure, even though it seems to resemble power and strength and hypertrophy type training, it is distinctly different.
    0:18:36 It’s not going to generate strength, hypertrophy and power.
    0:18:44 It’s going to mainly create this ability to endure, to continually contract muscles or repeatedly contract muscles, okay?
    0:18:58 Continually, if you’re using isometric holds, repeatedly, excuse me, if you’re using repetition type exercise where there’s a contraction and an extension of the muscle, essentially concentric and an eccentric portion.
    0:19:08 But remember that you want the eccentric portion to be light and relatively fast, not so fast that you injure yourself, but certainly not deliberately slowed down.
    0:19:12 I’d like to take a quick break and thank one of our sponsors, Element.
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    0:22:05 So now let’s talk about the other extreme of endurance, which is long duration endurance.
    0:22:10 This is the type that people typically think about when they think about endurance.
    0:22:15 You’re talking about a long run, a long swim, a long bike ride.
    0:22:16 Well, how long?
    0:22:25 Well, anywhere from 12 minutes to several hours, or maybe even an entire day, maybe eight or nine hours of hiking or running or biking.
    0:22:30 Some people are actually doing those kinds of really long events, marathons, for instance.
    0:22:52 You’re getting into regular repeated effort, and your ability to continue that effort is going to be dependent mainly on the efficiency of the movement, on your ability to strike a balance between the movement itself, the generation of the muscular movements that are required, and fuel utilization across the different sources.
    0:22:57 Fuel utilization across the different sources of nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs.
    0:23:00 So let’s ask the question, why would you fail on a long run?
    0:23:01 Why would you quit?
    0:23:13 Well, your mind is going to use more or less energy depending on how much willpower, how much of a fight you have to get into with yourself in order to generate the effort.
    0:23:21 I really want to underscore this willpower in part is the ability to devote resources to things.
    0:23:25 And part of that is making decisions to just either do it or not do it.
    0:23:27 I’m not of the just do it mindset.
    0:23:32 I think there’s a right time and a place to train, but I also think that it is not good.
    0:23:48 In other words, it utilizes excessive resources to churn over decisions excessively, and you probably burn as much cognitive energy deciding about whether or not to do a given training or not as you do in the actual training.
    0:24:00 When you go out for a run that’s 30 minutes, you are building the capacity to repeat that performance the next time while being more efficient, actually burning less fuel.
    0:24:09 And that might seem a little bit counterintuitive, but every time you do that run, what you’re doing is you’re building up mitochondrial density.
    0:24:14 It’s not so much about mitochondrial oxidation and respiration.
    0:24:16 You’re building up mitochondrial density.
    0:24:22 You’re actually increasing the amount of ATP that you can create for a given bout of effort.
    0:24:24 You’re becoming more efficient.
    0:24:25 Okay.
    0:24:29 You’re burning less fuel overall doing the same thing.
    0:24:34 That’s really what these long, slow distance or long bouts of effort are really all about.
    0:24:36 Now, why do this long duration effort?
    0:24:37 Why would you want to do it?
    0:24:38 Why is it good for you?
    0:24:45 Well, it does something very important, which is that it builds the capillary beds within muscles.
    0:24:51 So these are tiny little avenues like little tiny streams and estuaries between the bigger arteries and veins.
    0:24:53 You can literally build new capillaries.
    0:24:54 build new capillaries.
    0:24:57 You can create new little streams within your muscles.
    0:25:07 And the type of long duration effort that I was talking about before to 12 minutes or more of steady effort is very useful for doing that.
    0:25:15 And is very useful for increasing the mitochondria, the energy producing elements of the cells, the actual muscle cells.
    0:25:22 And the reason is when blood arrives to muscles, it has oxygen.
    0:25:24 The muscles are going to use some of that oxygen.
    0:25:29 And then some of the deoxygenated blood is going to be sent back to the heart and to the lungs.
    0:25:37 Now, the more capillaries that you build into those muscles, the more oxygen available to those muscles.
    0:25:52 So this long duration work, unlike muscular endurance like planks and everything that we were talking about before, is really about building the capillary systems and the mitochondria, the energy utilization systems within the muscles themselves.
    0:26:05 And then there are two kinds in between that in recent years have gotten a lot of attention and excitement, sometimes called high intensity interval training.
    0:26:19 So let’s talk about anaerobic endurance first.
    0:26:26 Anaerobic endurance from a protocol perspective is going to be three to 12 sets.
    0:26:27 Okay.
    0:26:35 And these are going to be performed at whatever speed allows you to complete the work in good, safe form.
    0:26:36 Okay.
    0:26:37 So it could be fast.
    0:26:38 Could be slow.
    0:26:43 As the work continues, your repetitions may slow down or it may speed up.
    0:26:44 Chances are it’s going to slow down.
    0:26:46 So what does this work?
    0:26:47 What are these sets look like?
    0:26:50 Remember long, slow distance is one set.
    0:26:52 Muscular endurance is three to five sets.
    0:26:55 High intensity anaerobic endurance is going to be somewhere between.
    0:26:58 three and 12 sets.
    0:27:07 And it’s going to have a ratio of work to rest of anywhere from three to one to one to five.
    0:27:08 Okay.
    0:27:12 So what would a three to one ratio set look like?
    0:27:20 Well, it’s going to be 30 seconds of hard pedaling on the bike, for instance, or running or on the rower.
    0:27:21 These are just examples.
    0:27:22 It could be in the pool swimming.
    0:27:26 It could be any number of things or air squats or, you know, or weighted squats.
    0:27:32 If you will, provided you can manage that 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:27:34 That’s a very brief rest.
    0:27:40 So three to one is just a good example would be 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:27:44 The opposite extreme on that ratio would be one to five.
    0:27:46 So 20 seconds on a hundred seconds off.
    0:27:50 So you do the work for 20 seconds, then you rest a hundred seconds.
    0:27:53 So let’s just take a look at the three to one ratio.
    0:28:00 So in the three to one ratio, if you’re going to do 30 seconds of hard pedaling on a bike followed by 10 seconds.
    0:28:02 So maybe one of these, what they call assault bikes.
    0:28:04 And then you stop for 10 seconds and then repeat.
    0:28:12 Chances are you will be able to do one, two, three, four, maybe even as many as 12 sets.
    0:28:18 If you’re really in good condition that you’ll be able to do all those because pedaling on the bike doesn’t require a ton of skill.
    0:28:27 And if you do it incorrectly, if your elbow flares out a little bit or something, it’s very unlikely that you’ll get injured unless it’s really extreme.
    0:28:28 Okay.
    0:28:31 But the same movement done for instance, with kettlebells.
    0:28:33 So 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:28:36 The first set will probably be in good form.
    0:28:41 The second one will be in pretty good form, but let’s say you’re getting to the fifth and sixth set and you’re going 30 seconds on 10 seconds off.
    0:28:45 Chances are the quality of your repetitions will degrade significantly.
    0:28:49 And you increase the probability that you’re going to get injured.
    0:28:51 If quality of form is important.
    0:28:54 So maybe this is using weights.
    0:28:55 Maybe you’re doing squats.
    0:28:58 So you’re going to do 20 seconds on and a hundred seconds of rest.
    0:29:10 What you’ll find is that the longer rest, even though it’s 20 seconds of intense effort, followed by a longer rest of about a hundred seconds will allow you to perform more quality repetitions safely over time.
    0:29:15 So it might be three sets of 20 seconds of hard effort, followed by a hundred seconds rest.
    0:29:20 Then you repeat 20 seconds of hard effort, a hundred seconds rest, 20 seconds of effort, a hundred seconds rest.
    0:29:22 And you might do that twice a week.
    0:29:26 In doing that, you will build up what we call anaerobic endurance.
    0:29:35 Anaerobic endurance is going to be taking your system into greater than 100% of your VO2 max.
    0:29:44 It’s going to be taking your heart rate up very high, and it’s going to maximize your oxygen utilization systems.
    0:29:54 That is going to have effects that are going to lead to fatigue at some point in the workout, and that fatigue will trigger an adaptation.
    0:29:57 So let’s ask what adaptation it’s triggering.
    0:30:09 Well, it’s triggering both mitochondrial respiration, the ability of your mitochondria to generate more energy by using more oxygen, because you’re bringing so much, you’re maxing out.
    0:30:15 Literally, you’re getting above your VO2 max, you’re hitting that threshold of how much oxygen you can use in your system.
    0:30:22 One of the adaptations will be that your mitochondria will shift such that they can use more oxygen.
    0:30:34 And you’re going to also increase the capillary beds, but not as much as you’re going to be able to increase the amount of neuron engagement of muscle.
    0:30:45 So normally, when we start to hit fatigue, when we’re exhausted, when we’re breathing really hard, because the systems of the body are linked, and there’s a mental component to this as well, a kind of motivational component.
    0:30:57 After that third or fourth or sixth set of, you know, 20 seconds on 100 seconds off, or if you’re at the other extreme 30 seconds on and 10 seconds off, there’s going to be a component of you want to stop.
    0:31:13 And by pushing through and repeating another set safely, of course, what you’re doing is you’re training the neurons to be able to access more energy, literally convert that into ATP, and for the muscles, therefore, to access more energy and ATP.
    0:31:18 And the adaptation is in the mitochondria’s ability to use oxygen.
    0:31:23 And this has tremendous carryover effects for other types of exercise.
    0:31:32 This can be beneficial in competitive sports or team sports where there’s a sprinting component, where the field opens up and you need to dribble the ball down the field, for instance, and shoot on goal.
    0:31:46 Or where you’re playing tennis, and it’s a long rally, and then all of a sudden, somebody really starts, you know, putting you back on your heels, and you have to really make the maximum amount of effort to run to the net and to get the ball across that things of that sort.
    0:31:47 Okay.
    0:31:52 There are a variety of places where there’s carryover from this type of training, but it does support endurance.
    0:31:54 It’s about muscle endurance.
    0:31:59 It’s about these muscles, ability to generate a lot of force in the short term, but repeatedly.
    0:32:02 Okay, so that’s the way to conceptualize this.
    0:32:04 And it is different than maximum power.
    0:32:09 Even though it feels like maximum effort, it is not the same as building power and speed into muscles.
    0:32:11 Those are distinctly different protocols.
    0:32:20 So the key elements, again, are that you’re bringing your breathing and your oxygen utilization way up above your max.
    0:32:28 It’s not quite hitting failure, but you’re really pushing the system to the point where you are not ready to do another set.
    0:32:30 And yet you begin another set.
    0:32:32 You’re not necessarily psychologically ready.
    0:32:37 I want to make sure I touch on the fourth protocol, which is high intensity aerobic conditioning.
    0:32:40 So HIIT has these two forms, anaerobic and aerobic.
    0:32:43 And you just heard about anaerobic.
    0:32:48 High intensity aerobic conditioning also involves about three to 12 sets.
    0:32:58 A one-to-one ratio is powerful for building, on average, most of the energy systems involving.
    0:33:02 Remember, we had these nerve, muscle, blood, heart, and lungs.
    0:33:07 A one-to-one ratio might be you run a mile and however long that takes.
    0:33:10 You might run first miles, let’s say seven minutes.
    0:33:11 Then you rest for seven minutes.
    0:33:12 Then you run a mile again.
    0:33:15 And it might take eight minutes and you rest for eight minutes.
    0:33:20 And you continue that for a total of four miles of work, four miles of running work, I should say.
    0:33:21 You can build this up.
    0:33:35 Many people find that using this type of training allows them to do things like go run half marathons and marathons, even though prior to the race date, they’ve never actually run a half marathon or marathon.
    0:33:38 Now that might seem incredible.
    0:33:53 It’s like, how could it be that running a mile on and then, and then resting for running a mile and then resting for an equivalent amount of time, running a mile, resting for equivalent amount of time for seven miles allows you to run continuously for 13 miles or for 26 miles.
    0:33:58 It improves ATP and mitochondrial function in muscle.
    0:34:04 It allows the blood to deliver more oxygen to the muscle and to your brain.
    0:34:08 And it allows your heart to deliver more oxygen overall.
    0:34:11 And it builds a tremendous lung capacity.
    0:34:12 So what would this look like?
    0:34:13 And when should you do this?
    0:34:22 Well, it’s really a question for these workouts of asking how much work can one do in eight to 12 minutes, right?
    0:34:23 And then rest and then repeat.
    0:34:26 How much work can you do for eight to 12 minutes, then rest and then repeat?
    0:34:28 And how many times should you do this?
    0:34:31 Well, this is the sort of thing, it’s pretty intense.
    0:34:37 And so you would probably only want to do this two, maybe three times a week if you’re not doing many other things.
    0:34:40 So we have four kinds of endurance, muscular endurance.
    0:34:41 We have long duration endurance.
    0:34:45 We have high intensity interval training of two kinds, anaerobic and aerobic.
    0:34:49 And this last type, the aerobic one works best.
    0:34:51 It seems if you kind of do this one-to-one ratio.
    0:34:53 So how would you use these and what are they actually doing?
    0:34:54 What are they actually doing?
    0:35:01 Let’s talk about the heart and the lungs and oxygen, because that’s something that we can all benefit from understanding.
    0:35:06 The brain and the heart are probably the two most important systems that you need to take care of in your life.
    0:35:15 Maintaining or enhancing a brain function and cardiovascular function, it’s absolutely clear are key for health and longevity in the short and long term.
    0:35:23 And the sorts of training I talked about today has been shown again and again and again to be very useful for enhancing the strength of the mind.
    0:35:28 Yes, I’ll talk about that as well as the health of the brain and the body.
    0:35:32 I’d like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.
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    0:37:31 So let’s talk about the sorts of adaptations that are happening in your brain and body that are so beneficial in these different forms of training.
    0:37:50 If you are breathing hard and your heart is beating hard, so this would be certainly in the high-intensity anaerobic and aerobic conditioning, because you’re getting up near your VO2 max in high-intensity aerobic conditioning, and you’re exceeding your VO2 max in high-intensity anaerobic conditioning.
    0:37:59 What’s going to happen is, as of course your heart beats faster, your blood is going to be circulating faster in principle.
    0:38:02 Oxygen utilization in muscles is going to go up.
    0:38:19 And over time, not long, very quickly, what will happen when those capillary beds start to expand, in addition, because of the amount of blood that’s being returned to the heart, when you engage in these really intense bouts of effort,
    0:38:29 repeatedly, the amount of blood being returned to the heart actually causes an eccentric loading of one of the muscular walls of the heart.
    0:38:32 So your heart is muscle, it’s cardiac muscle.
    0:38:35 We have skeletal muscle attached to our bones, and we have cardiac muscle, which is our heart.
    0:38:54 When more blood is being returned to the heart because of the additional work that your muscles and nerves are doing, it actually has the effect of creating an eccentric loading, a kind of pushing of the wall, the left.
    0:39:01 I realize I’m not using the strict anatomy here, but I don’t want to get into all the features of the structural features of the heart.
    0:39:16 But the left ventricle essentially getting slammed back and then having to push back and a kind of eccentric loading of the cardiac muscle and the muscle thickens as more blood is returned to the heart.
    0:39:23 There’s an adaptation where the heart muscle actually gets stronger and therefore can pump more blood per stroke, per beat.
    0:39:38 And as it does that, it delivers, because blood contains glucose and oxygen and other things, it delivers more fuel to your muscles, which allows you to do yet more work per unit time.
    0:39:50 If you do this high intensity type training where your heart is beating very hard, so maybe the one-to-one ratio mile run repeats that I described a minute ago, pretty soon the stroke volume of your heart will really increase.
    0:39:55 And as a consequence, you can deliver more fuel to your muscles and to your brain.
    0:39:58 Your cognitive functioning will improve.
    0:40:07 This has been shown again and again because there’s an increase in vasculature, literally capillary beds within the brain, the hippocampus, areas that support memory, but also areas of the brain.
    0:40:13 But also areas of the brain that support respiration, that support focus, that support effort.
    0:40:18 Now, weight training does have some positive effects on brain function also.
    0:40:36 However, it’s very clear and you should now understand intuitively why the kind of standard strength and hypertrophy type workouts are not going to activate the blood oxygenation and the stroke volume increases for the heart that the sorts of training I’m talking about today will.
    0:40:39 It just doesn’t have the same positive effects.
    0:40:44 The other thing that’s really important to think about in terms of endurance type work is hydration.
    0:40:49 And I think hydration is important for all forms of physical work and exercise, not just endurance.
    0:40:56 Typically, we’re going to lose anywhere from one to five pounds of water per hour of exercise.
    0:40:57 And that’s going to vary tremendously.
    0:40:59 It’s going to vary on weather.
    0:41:06 It’s going to vary on intensity, probably more like five pounds if it’s hot day and you’re exercising very intensely.
    0:41:28 So if you think about your weight in pounds, once you lose about one to 4% of your body weight in water, you’re going to experience about a 20 to 30% reduction in work capacity in your ability to generate effort of any kind, strength, endurance, etc.
    0:41:33 You are also going to experience a significant drop in your ability to think and perform mental operations.
    0:41:35 So hydration is key.
    0:41:37 Potassium, sodium, and magnesium are really key.
    0:41:38 Yes, it’s true.
    0:41:42 You can die from drinking too much water in particular because it forces you.
    0:41:47 If you drink too much water, you’ll excrete too many electrolytes and your brain will shut off.
    0:41:50 You’ll actually, your heart will stop functioning properly.
    0:41:53 So you don’t want to over consume water to the extreme either.
    0:42:01 A simple formula, what I call the Galpin equation, which is your body weight in pounds divided by the number 30.
    0:42:06 And that is how many ounces you should drink for every 15 minutes of exercise.
    0:42:08 Now, if you are sweating a lot, you may need more.
    0:42:15 If you’re already very well hydrated, you may need less, but that’s a good rule of thumb to begin.
    0:42:20 And to start to understand the relationship between hydration and performance.
    0:42:22 We didn’t talk about supplements much today.
    0:42:26 In the previous episodes, I talked about the phosphocreatine system and supplementing with creatine.
    0:42:30 We talked about beta alanine for kind of moderate duration work.
    0:42:41 You know, really the only things that have been shown to really improve endurance work across the four varieties of endurance work I described today.
    0:42:44 They have essentially two forms.
    0:42:45 One are stimulants.
    0:42:49 So things like caffeine will definitely improve endurance work and power output.
    0:43:01 Certain forms of magnesium, in particular magnesium malate, M-A-L-A-T-E, have been shown to be useful for removing or reducing the amount of delayed onset muscle soreness.
    0:43:07 That form of magnesium is distinctly different than the sorts of magnesium that are good for getting us into sleep.
    0:43:09 Things like magnesium threonate and bi-glycinate.
    0:43:14 In general, we focused mainly today on behavioral tools.
    0:43:18 And I hope I was able to illustrate for you that endurance isn’t just one thing.
    0:43:23 It’s not just the ability to go for long bouts of exercise of different kinds.
    0:43:26 That there’s also this mental component because of the way that neurons work.
    0:43:40 And also that there are these different forms of endurance, of muscular endurance, that where you’re going to fail because of the muscles and muscle energy utilization and the nerves that innervate those muscles locally, not because of a failure to bring in oxygen or blood.
    0:43:50 Whereas long duration effort, it’s going to be more about, you know, being below your VO2 max and your ability to be efficient for long bouts of more than 12 minutes of exercise.
    0:43:54 One set, as they say, of 12 minutes to maybe several hours.
    0:44:00 High intensity training will tap into yet other fuel sources and mechanisms as we learned today.
    0:44:03 And last but not least, thank you for your interest in science.
    Chào mừng bạn đến với Huberman Lab Essentials, nơi chúng ta quay lại các tập trước để tìm hiểu những công cụ dựa trên khoa học mạnh mẽ và có thể thực hiện được nhất cho sức khỏe tâm thần, sức khỏe thể chất và hiệu suất. Tôi là Andrew Huberman, giáo sư sinh lý thần kinh và nhãn khoa tại Trường Y khoa Stanford. Podcast này tách biệt với vai trò giảng dạy và nghiên cứu của tôi tại Stanford. Tuy nhiên, đây là một phần trong khát vọng và nỗ lực của tôi nhằm cung cấp thông tin miễn phí cho người tiêu dùng về khoa học và các công cụ liên quan đến khoa học cho công chúng. Hôm nay, tôi muốn nói về sức bền, cách xây dựng sức bền và cách sử dụng sức bền cho sức khỏe của toàn bộ cơ thể bạn. Sức bền, như tên gọi đã gợi ý, là khả năng của chúng ta để tham gia vào các hoạt động thể chất liên tục hoặc chuyển động hoặc nỗ lực liên tục của bất kỳ loại nào. Rõ ràng là tập luyện thể dục tim mạch, đó là khi bạn làm tăng nhịp tim của mình liên tục trong một khoảng thời gian, là rất quan trọng để khai thác và nâng cao các khía cạnh khác nhau của sinh học trong cơ thể và trong não, để não chúng ta có thể thực hiện công việc trong thời gian dài hơn, công việc tập trung, học tập, v.v. Điều quan trọng cần hiểu về việc sản xuất năng lượng trong cơ thể là cái mà chúng ta gọi là ATP. ATP là cần thiết cho bất kỳ thứ gì đòi hỏi năng lượng, cho bất kỳ thứ gì mà bạn làm cần nỗ lực. Vì vậy, cơ bắp và tế bào thần kinh của chúng ta sử dụng các nguồn nhiên liệu khác nhau để tạo ra ATP. Các nguồn nhiên liệu được sử dụng đầu tiên cho các hoạt động ngắn nhưng cường độ cao là những thứ như phosphocreatine. Nếu bạn chỉ nghe nói về creatine như một loại thực phẩm bổ sung, thì phosphocreatine thực sự tồn tại trong các cơ bắp của chúng ta, và đó là lý do tại sao mọi người sử dụng creatine. Bạn có thể nạp thêm creatine vào cơ bắp của mình. Phosphocreatine rất tốt cho những nỗ lực ngắn nhưng cường độ cao. Sau đó, bạn sẽ bắt đầu tận dụng những thứ như glucose, mà thực chất chỉ là carbohydrate. Nó chỉ là đường trong máu của bạn. Và nếu bạn tiếp tục đẩy mạnh, bạn sẽ bắt đầu khai thác các nguồn nhiên liệu khác như glycogen. Và bạn có chất béo được dự trữ trong mô mỡ. Ngay cả khi bạn có tỷ lệ phần trăm mỡ cơ thể rất thấp, bạn vẫn có thể chiết xuất lipid, axit béo từ chất béo đó. Nó giống như một gói lưu trữ. Nó là một gói lưu trữ năng lượng có thể được chuyển đổi thành ATP. Mà không đi sâu vào chi tiết hơn, khi tôi nói hôm nay về năng lượng, hoặc nói về ATP, hãy nhớ rằng bất kể chế độ ăn uống của bạn là gì, bất kể kế hoạch dinh dưỡng của bạn ra sao, cơ thể bạn có khả năng sử dụng creatine, glucose, glycogen, lipid, và nếu bạn ăn ketogenic, các thể ketone, để tạo ra năng lượng. Bây giờ, điểm quan trọng khác là để hoàn thành quá trình lấy những nhiên liệu này và chuyển đổi chúng thành năng lượng, hầu hết thời gian, bạn cần oxy. Bạn cần không khí, về cơ bản là, trong hệ thống của bạn. Bây giờ, đó không phải là không khí thực sự, bạn cần các phân tử oxy trong hệ thống của mình, chúng vào qua miệng và mũi của bạn, đi đến phổi và phân phối qua dòng máu. Oxy không phải là nhiên liệu, nhưng giống như một ngọn lửa không có oxy, bạn thực sự không thể đốt cháy các khúc gỗ. Nhưng khi bạn thổi nhiều oxy vào một ngọn lửa, về cơ bản vào những khúc gỗ có ngọn lửa, thì nó sẽ bắt lửa, nó sẽ cháy, được chứ? Oxy cho phép bạn đốt nhiên liệu. Vậy hôm nay chúng ta sẽ đặt ra những câu hỏi quan trọng. Điều gì cho phép chúng ta thực hiện? Điều gì cho phép chúng ta duy trì nỗ lực trong thời gian dài? Chà, chúng ta nghĩ đến những thứ như sức mạnh ý chí, nhưng sức mạnh ý chí là gì? Sức mạnh ý chí là các tế bào thần kinh. Đó là các tế bào thần kinh trong não của chúng ta. Chúng ta có một thứ gọi là bộ điều khiển trung tâm, quyết định liệu chúng ta nên hoặc có thể tiếp tục hay không hoặc liệu chúng ta nên dừng lại hay không, có nên bỏ cuộc hay không. Vì vậy, chúng ta phải đặt ra câu hỏi, yếu tố nào là yếu tố hạn chế trong hiệu suất? Điều gì ngăn cản chúng ta chịu đựng? Điều gì ngăn cản chúng ta tiến bước? Những yếu tố nào nói rằng, bạn biết đấy? Không còn nữa. Tôi sẽ không tiếp tục chạy nữa. Có năm loại chính những thứ cho phép chúng ta tham gia vào nỗ lực. Bây giờ, tôi không muốn hoàn toàn loại bỏ những thứ như hệ miễn dịch và các hệ thống khác trong cơ thể, nhưng dây thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, tim và phổi là năm thứ mà tôi muốn tập trung hôm nay vì đó là nơi mà phần lớn dữ liệu có. Hãy nói về các tế bào thần kinh và cách chúng hoạt động, được chứ? Nhưng tôi muốn kể cho bạn về một thí nghiệm sẽ làm rõ lý do tại sao việc bỏ cuộc là một điều tâm lý, không phải thể chất. Vậy tại sao chúng ta lại bỏ cuộc? Chà, một thí nghiệm đã được thực hiện cách đây một vài năm và được công bố trong tạp chí Cell, Tạp chí Cell Press, một tạp chí xuất sắc, cho thấy rằng có một nhóm tế bào thần kinh trong thân não của chúng ta, ở phía sau não của chúng ta, nếu chúng tắt, chúng ta sẽ bỏ cuộc. Bây giờ, những tế bào thần kinh này giải phóng epinephrine. Epinephrine là adrenaline. Và bất cứ khi nào chúng ta tham gia vào nỗ lực của bất kỳ loại nào, chúng ta đang giải phóng epinephrine. Bất cứ khi nào chúng ta tỉnh táo, thực sự, chúng ta đang giải phóng epinephrine vào não của chúng ta. Trên thực tế, nhóm nhỏ các tế bào thần kinh này ở phía sau não của chúng ta, được gọi là locus coeruleus, nếu bạn thích, luôn luôn sản xuất epinephrine. Nhưng nếu có điều gì đó khiến chúng ta căng thẳng, nó sẽ sản xuất nhiều hơn và sau đó hoạt động như một tín hiệu cảnh báo cho toàn bộ não. Chúng ta cũng có epinephrine adrenaline được giải phóng trong cơ thể, điều này làm cho cơ thể chúng ta sẵn sàng cho mọi thứ. Vì vậy, hãy coi epinephrine như một tín hiệu sẵn sàng. Và khi chúng ta tham gia vào nỗ lực, tín hiệu sẵn sàng này đang được sản xuất vào trong não của chúng ta. Khi chúng ta thư giãn và sắp ngủ, mức độ epinephrine thấp. Vì vậy, mong muốn tiếp tục của chúng ta hoặc nói cách khác, sự sẵn lòng tiếp tục của chúng ta và mong muốn bỏ cuộc của chúng ta được điều chỉnh bởi những sự kiện giữa hai tai của chúng ta. Bây giờ điều đó không có nghĩa là cơ thể không liên quan, nhưng điều đó có nghĩa là các tế bào thần kinh là rất quan trọng. Vì vậy, chúng ta có hai loại tế bào thần kinh quan trọng. Những cái trong đầu của chúng ta, nói với chúng ta hãy đứng dậy và ra ngoài và chạy. Và những cái cho phép chúng ta, khuyến khích chúng ta tiếp tục cuộc chạy đó. Và chúng ta có các tế bào thần kinh ngăn mọi thứ lại, nói rằng không còn nữa.
    Chúng ta tất nhiên có các nơ-ron kết nối với cơ bắp và điều khiển cơ bắp của chúng ta. Nhưng lý do mà chúng ta bỏ cuộc hiếm khi vì cơ thể chúng ta bỏ cuộc, mà là vì tâm trí chúng ta bỏ cuộc. Khi mọi người nói rằng thể thao hay nỗ lực hay chiến đấu, hoặc rằng 90% là tinh thần, 10% là thể chất, thì toàn bộ cuộc thảo luận về bao nhiêu là tinh thần, bao nhiêu là thể chất là hoàn toàn ngớ ngẩn. Tất cả đều phụ thuộc vào hệ thần kinh. Đó là các nơ-ron. Được rồi. Vì vậy, khi mọi người nói về tinh thần hay thể chất, hãy hiểu rằng nó hoàn toàn phụ thuộc vào nơ-ron. Bây giờ, các dây thần kinh cần gì để tiếp tục hoạt động? Bạn cần gì để khiến các nơ-ron nói rằng, tôi sẽ kiên trì? Chúng cần glucose. Trừ khi bạn đang theo chế độ ăn keto và thích nghi với nó, bạn cần carbohydrate tức là glucose. Đó là nguồn năng lượng cho các nơ-ron. Và bạn cần điện giải. Các nơ-ron có một cái gọi là bơm natri-kali, vân vân. Chúng tạo ra điện để làm cho các dây thần kinh, các tế bào thần kinh hoạt động, co cơ, để nói rằng, tôi sẽ tiếp tục. Bạn cần đủ natri vì điện thế hoạt động, hoạt động thực sự của các nơ-ron phụ thuộc vào natri vào tế bào, lao vào tế bào. Sau đó, có sự loại bỏ kali. Và sau đó có một kiểu thiết lập lại các mức độ đó bằng một cái gọi là bơm natri-kali và bơm natri-kali cũng như các điện thế hành động. Ngay cả khi bạn không biết gì về điều đó, ngay cả khi bạn không biết rằng nó phụ thuộc vào ATP, nó cần năng lượng. Vì vậy, bạn cần năng lượng để khiến các nơ-ron hoạt động. Và nó phụ thuộc vào pH. Nó phụ thuộc vào điều kiện hoặc môi trường bên trong não có một pH hoặc độ axit nhất định. pH liên quan đến độ axit hoặc độ bazơ của môi trường. Các dây thần kinh cần muối. Chúng cần kali. Và hóa ra chúng cần cả magiê. Và bạn cần glucose và carbohydrate để cung cấp năng lượng cho các nơ-ron đó, trừ khi bạn đang chạy bằng xeton. Cơ bắp. Cơ bắp sẽ tham gia vào việc tạo ra năng lượng đầu tiên bằng cách sử dụng hệ thống phosphocreatine này. Những nỗ lực lớn, thực sự cường độ cao, kéo dài từ vài giây đến vài phút, nhưng có lẽ chủ yếu là vài giây sẽ sử dụng phosphocreatine, thực sự là một nguồn nhiên liệu trong cơ bắp mà bạn sẽ đốt cháy, giống như bạn đốt củi trong lửa. Và glycogen, là carbohydrate được lưu trữ trong cơ bắp, đang chuyển hóa nó thành ATP để tạo ra năng lượng đó. Và sau đó có những thứ trong máu của chúng ta mà có sẵn như một nguồn năng lượng. Trong máu, chúng ta có glucose. Thực sự là đường huyết đang lưu thông. Giả sử bạn đã nhịn ăn trong ba ngày, đường huyết của bạn sẽ rất thấp. Vì vậy, đó không phải là một nguồn nhiên liệu tuyệt vời, nhưng bạn sẽ bắt đầu giải phóng chất béo từ mô mỡ của bạn, từ mỡ. Axit béo sẽ bắt đầu được di chuyển vào máu và bạn có thể đốt cháy chúng để tạo ra năng lượng. Bây giờ, có một số yếu tố khác cũng quan trọng và đó là trái tim, cái sẽ di chuyển máu. Vì vậy, càng nhiều máu và oxy mà trái tim có thể di chuyển, thì càng nhiều nhiên liệu sẽ có sẵn để bạn tham gia vào nỗ lực cơ bắp và nỗ lực tư duy. Và như tôi đã đề cập đến oxy vài lần, thì nên rõ ràng rằng phổi rất quan trọng. Bạn cần đưa oxy vào và phân phối cho tất cả các mô này bởi vì oxy là rất quan trọng cho việc chuyển đổi carbohydrate và chuyển đổi chất béo. Vì vậy, khi chúng ta đặt câu hỏi, hoặc ngay cả những nỗ lực kéo dài trung bình, chúng ta cần hỏi yếu tố nào trong đó, dây thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, trái tim và phổi là giới hạn hoặc nói cách khác, chúng ta hỏi chúng ta nên làm gì với các nơ-ron? Chúng ta nên làm gì với cơ bắp của chúng ta? Chúng ta nên làm gì với máu của chúng ta? Chúng ta nên làm gì với trái tim của chúng ta? Và chúng ta nên làm gì với phổi của chúng ta? Điều đó sẽ cho phép chúng ta xây dựng sức bền cho công việc tinh thần và thể chất và có thể kéo dài lâu hơn, xa hơn, với nhiều cường độ hơn. Tôi muốn tạm nghỉ một chút và công nhận nhà tài trợ của chúng tôi, AG1. AG1 là một loại đồ uống vitamin, khoáng chất, probiotic cũng chứa các adaptogen. Tôi đã bắt đầu uống AG1 từ năm 2012, lâu trước khi tôi biết podcast là gì. Tôi đã bắt đầu uống nó và tôi vẫn uống nó mỗi ngày vì nó đảm bảo rằng tôi đáp ứng đủ lượng vitamin và khoáng chất hàng ngày, và nó giúp tôi chắc chắn rằng tôi nhận đủ prebiotics và probiotics để hỗ trợ sức khỏe ruột của mình. Trong suốt 10 năm qua, sức khỏe ruột đã trở thành điều mà chúng ta nhận ra là quan trọng không chỉ cho sức khỏe tiêu hóa, mà còn cho hệ miễn dịch của chúng ta và cho việc sản xuất các chất dẫn truyền thần kinh và điều hòa thần kinh, những thứ như dopamine và serotonin. Nói cách khác, sức khỏe ruột rất quan trọng cho chức năng não bộ đúng cách. Bây giờ, tất nhiên, tôi cố gắng ăn thực phẩm nguyên chất và không chế biến cho phần lớn lượng dinh dưỡng của mình, nhưng có một số loại chất dinh dưỡng trong AG1, bao gồm các vi chất dinh dưỡng cụ thể mà rất khó hoặc không thể có được từ thực phẩm nguyên chất. Vì vậy, bằng cách uống AG1 hàng ngày, tôi nhận được các vitamin và khoáng chất mà tôi cần, cùng với probiotics và prebiotics cho sức khỏe ruột, và lần lượt là sức khỏe não bộ và hệ miễn dịch, và các adaptogen và vi chất dinh dưỡng quan trọng cần thiết cho tất cả các cơ quan và mô trong cơ thể. Vì vậy, bất cứ khi nào ai đó hỏi tôi nếu họ chỉ nên uống một loại thực phẩm chức năng, thì loại đó nên là gì, tôi luôn nói AG1, vì AG1 hỗ trợ nhiều hệ thống khác nhau trong não và cơ thể liên quan đến sức khỏe tâm thần, sức khỏe thể chất và hiệu suất của chúng ta. Nếu bạn muốn thử AG1, bạn có thể truy cập drinkag1.com/huberman. Tháng này, tháng 4 năm 2025, AG1 đang tặng một tháng cung cấp omega-3 cá, cùng với một chai vitamin D3 cộng với K2. Như tôi đã nhấn mạnh trước đây trong podcast này, omega-3 cá và vitamin D3 cộng với K2 đã được chứng minh là giúp ích cho mọi thứ từ tâm trạng và sức khỏe não đến sức khỏe tim mạch và sản xuất hormone khỏe mạnh, và nhiều hơn nữa. Một lần nữa, đó là drinkag1.
    com/huberman để nhận một tháng cung cấp miễn phí omega-3 từ dầu cá, cộng với một chai vitamin D3 cộng với K2 với đăng ký của bạn.
    Vậy, hãy nói về bốn loại sức bền và cách để đạt được chúng.
    Đầu tiên, chúng ta có sức bền cơ bắp. Sức bền cơ bắp là khả năng của các cơ để thực hiện công việc theo thời gian, và việc không thể tiếp tục thực hiện công việc đó sẽ do mệt mỏi cơ bắp, không phải do mệt mỏi tim mạch.
    Vì vậy, không phải vì chúng ta thở quá nặng nhọc, hoặc không đủ máu tới các cơ, hoặc vì chúng ta bỏ cuộc về mặt tinh thần, mà vì chính các cơ sẽ không còn hoạt động.
    Một ví dụ tốt về điều này là nếu bạn phải nhấc một viên đá trong sân, và viên đá đó không nặng lắm với bạn, và bạn cần làm điều đó từ 50 đến 100 lần, và bạn cứ nhấc nó lên và đặt xuống rồi lại nhấc lên và đặt xuống.
    Tại một thời điểm nào đó, các cơ của bạn sẽ bị mệt mỏi. Sức bền cơ bắp sẽ là thứ mà bạn có thể thực hiện từ 12 đến 25, hoặc thậm chí lên đến 100 lần.
    Một ví dụ tốt là hít đất. Thực ra, không có sự tình cờ nào khi mà nhiều chương trình huấn luyện kiểu quân đội không được thực hiện với tạ. Chúng được thực hiện với các bài tập như hít đất, kéo xà, gập bụng, và chạy bộ.
    Bởi vì những gì họ thực sự đang xây dựng là sức bền cơ bắp, khả năng thực hiện công việc một cách lặp đi lặp lại theo thời gian cho một nhóm cơ và dây thần kinh nhất định.
    Vì vậy, một quy trình huấn luyện sức bền cơ bắp thực sự tốt, theo tài liệu khoa học, sẽ là ba đến năm set với số lần lặp lại từ 12 đến 100. Đó là một phạm vi rất lớn.
    Bây giờ, 12 đến 25 lần lặp lại sẽ hợp lý hơn cho hầu hết mọi người. Và khoảng thời gian nghỉ giữa các set sẽ từ 30 đến 180 giây. Vậy là từ nửa phút đến ba phút nghỉ.
    Một đặc điểm quan trọng của việc xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp là nó không có yếu tố tải trọng nén lớn nào. Tôi chưa nói nhiều về tải trọng đồng tâm và eksentrik, nhưng tải trọng đồng tâm là khi bạn đang thu ngắn cơ, thường là, hoặc nâng một vật nặng.
    Còn các động tác eksentrik là khi bạn kéo dài cơ, thường là, hoặc hạ một vật nặng.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn làm một động tác kéo xà và đưa cằm bạn qua thanh xà hoặc kéo lên, đó là phần đồng tâm của nỗ lực.
    Và sau đó, khi bạn hạ thân mình xuống, đó là phần eksentrik. Phần eksentrik của bất kỳ bài tập kháng lực nào, cho dù nó là để xây dựng sức bền hay sức mạnh, là một trong những nguyên nhân chính gây ra cơn đau cơ.
    Một số người sẽ nhạy cảm với điều này hơn những người khác, nhưng nó thực sự gây ra nhiều tổn thương hơn trong các sợi cơ. Sức bền cơ bắp và việc xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp không nên bao gồm bất kỳ động tác nào có trọng tải eksentrik lớn.
    Vì vậy, nếu bạn định làm hít đất, không có nghĩa là bạn muốn dồn ngực của mình xuống sàn. Và nhân tiện, ngực của bạn nên chạm đất trong mỗi lần hít đất.
    Đó mới gọi là hít đất thực sự. Nó về việc đẩy xuống cho đến khi ngực bạn chạm sàn và thẳng ra. Đó là một động tác hít đất hợp lý.
    Và kéo xà là khi bạn kéo cằm của mình qua thanh xà. Cả hai đều không nên bao gồm một giai đoạn eksentrik chậm hoặc nặng.
    Nếu bạn đang sử dụng những điều đó để huấn luyện sức bền cơ bắp, ba đến năm set từ 12 đến 25 lần lặp lại và thậm chí có thể lên đến 100 lần lặp lại với 30 đến 180 giây nghỉ giữa các set.
    Nhưng nếu bạn muốn xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp, bạn muốn làm cho các cơ của bạn có thể thực hiện công việc nhiều hơn trong thời gian dài hơn.
    Điều này sẽ trở thành ba đến năm set từ 12 đến 100 lần, 30 đến 180 giây với chủ yếu là chuyển động đồng tâm, được chưa? Không phải giai đoạn hạ chậm hay nặng.
    Vì vậy, điều đó có thể là các động tác đung đưa tạ kettlebell và những thứ tương tự. Các bài tập tĩnh, như tôi đã đề cập, những điều như plank và ngồi dựa tường cũng sẽ có tác dụng.
    Bây giờ, điều thú vị về điều này là nó không hề giống với những gì mọi người thường nghĩ là sức bền. Và tuy nhiên, qua các nghiên cứu đánh giá ngang hàng chất lượng tốt, sức bền cơ bắp có thể cải thiện khả năng của chúng ta tham gia vào những khoảng thời gian dài mà chúng ta gọi là công việc sức bền cường độ thấp, độ dài dài.
    Vì vậy, điều này có thể hỗ trợ các cuộc chạy dài, nó có thể hỗ trợ các cuộc bơi dài, và nó cũng có thể xây dựng, nó có thể xây dựng sức mạnh và sức bền tư thế đồng thời.
    Bây giờ, hãy nói về khoa học một cách ngắn gọn về lý do tại sao điều này hoạt động.
    Chà, điều này đưa chúng ta trở lại với vấn đề sử dụng nhiên liệu và điều gì bị thất bại.
    Vì vậy, nếu chúng ta nói, được rồi, hãy nói rằng bạn tập plank và bạn có thể plank trong một phút hoặc hai phút hoặc ba phút. Ở một thời điểm nào đó, bạn sẽ không thể tiếp tục.
    Bạn sẽ không thất bại vì tim bạn không hoạt động. Bạn sẽ không thất bại vì không đủ oxy vì bạn có thể thở trong khi làm điều đó.
    Bạn sẽ thất bại do sự thất bại cục bộ của cơ bắp, nghĩa là khi bạn làm, nếu bạn chọn thực hiện quy trình ba đến năm set, v.v., để xây dựng sức bền cơ bắp, chủ yếu, những gì bạn sẽ xây dựng là bạn đang xây dựng khả năng của các tế bào ty thể của bạn sử dụng oxy để tạo ra năng lượng cục bộ.
    Và đó gọi là hô hấp ty thể, hô hấp bởi vì có sự tham gia của oxy. Và nó cũng sẽ tăng cường mức độ mà các dây thần kinh kiểm soát các cơ và cung cấp kích thích cho các cơ co lại.
    Nhưng điều này là độc lập với sức mạnh và khả năng, được chưa?
    Vì vậy, ngay cả khi các set ít như ba đến năm set và thực tế rằng bạn đang thực hiện các lần lặp lại và bạn sẽ thất bại, mặc dù nó có vẻ tương tự với huấn luyện sức mạnh và tăng trưởng, nhưng nó thực sự khác biệt rõ rệt.
    Nó sẽ không tạo ra sức mạnh, khối cơ và công suất.
    Nó sẽ chủ yếu tạo ra khả năng chịu đựng, để co cơ liên tục hoặc co cơ lặp đi lặp lại, được không? Liên tục, nếu bạn đang sử dụng các động tác giữ cơ tĩnh, lặp đi lặp lại, xin lỗi, nếu bạn đang sử dụng bài tập kiểu lặp lại, nơi có sự co lại và giãn nở của cơ, chủ yếu là phần co cơ đồng tâm và phần co cơ nhượng tâm. Nhưng hãy nhớ rằng bạn muốn phần co cơ nhượng tâm nhẹ và nhanh tương đối, không quá nhanh đến mức bạn tự làm mình bị thương, nhưng chắc chắn là không cố gắng làm chậm lại.
    Tôi muốn tạm dừng một chút và cảm ơn một trong những nhà tài trợ của chúng tôi, Element. Element là một loại thức uống điện giải cung cấp mọi thứ bạn cần và không có gì bạn không cần. Điều đó có nghĩa là các điện giải, natri, magiê và kali với tỷ lệ chính xác, nhưng không có đường. Chúng ta đều biết rằng việc giữ nước đúng cách là rất quan trọng cho chức năng tối ưu của não và cơ thể. Thực tế, ngay cả một mức độ mất nước nhẹ cũng có thể làm giảm hiệu suất nhận thức và thể chất của bạn một cách đáng kể.
    Điều quan trọng là bạn không chỉ được cung cấp đủ nước, mà còn cần có đủ lượng điện giải với tỷ lệ đúng. Uống một gói Element hòa tan trong nước làm cho việc đảm bảo bạn có đủ nước và điện giải trở nên rất dễ dàng. Để chắc chắn rằng tôi nhận được đủ lượng cả hai, tôi hòa tan một gói Element trong khoảng 16 đến 32 ounces nước khi tôi thức dậy vào buổi sáng, và tôi uống điều đó ngay từ lúc đầu tiên trong buổi sáng. Tôi cũng sẽ uống một gói Element hòa tan trong nước trong bất kỳ loại bài tập thể chất nào mà tôi đang làm, đặc biệt là vào những ngày nóng khi tôi đổ mồ hôi nhiều và mất nước và điện giải.
    Có rất nhiều hương vị thơm ngon khác nhau của Element. Tôi thích hương dưa hấu. Tôi thích hương mâm xôi. Tôi thích hương cam chanh. Thực ra, tôi thích tất cả chúng. Nếu bạn muốn thử Element, bạn có thể truy cập drinkelement.com/huberman để nhận một gói mẫu Element với bất kỳ loại hỗn hợp uống Element nào bạn mua. Một lần nữa, đó là Drink Element, viết là L-M-N-T. Hãy truy cập drinkelement.com/huberman để yêu cầu một gói mẫu miễn phí.
    Tập phim hôm nay cũng được tài trợ bởi Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep làm các vỏ đệm thông minh với khả năng làm mát, làm nóng và theo dõi giấc ngủ. Tôi đã nói trước đây trong podcast này về việc cần thiết phải có đủ lượng giấc ngủ chất lượng mỗi đêm. Một trong những cách tốt nhất để đảm bảo có một giấc ngủ ngon là đảm bảo rằng nhiệt độ của môi trường ngủ của bạn là chính xác. Và điều đó là bởi vì để có thể ngủ sâu và duy trì giấc ngủ, nhiệt độ cơ thể của bạn thực sự phải giảm khoảng một đến ba độ. Và để thức dậy cảm thấy sảng khoái và tràn đầy năng lượng, nhiệt độ cơ thể của bạn thực tế phải tăng khoảng một đến ba độ. Eight Sleep tự động điều chỉnh nhiệt độ của giường của bạn suốt đêm theo nhu cầu riêng của bạn.
    Tôi thấy điều này vô cùng hữu ích vì tôi thích làm cho giường thật mát lạnh vào đầu đêm, thậm chí lạnh hơn giữa đêm và ấm lên khi tôi thức dậy. Đó là điều mang lại cho tôi giấc ngủ sóng chậm và giấc ngủ chuyển động mắt nhanh nhiều nhất. Tôi biết điều đó vì Eight Sleep có một thiết bị theo dõi giấc ngủ tuyệt vời báo cho tôi biết tôi đã ngủ như thế nào và các loại giấc ngủ mà tôi có được suốt đêm. Tôi đã ngủ trên một vỏ đệm Eight Sleep trong bốn năm nay, và nó đã hoàn toàn biến đổi và cải thiện chất lượng giấc ngủ của tôi. Mẫu mới nhất của họ, Pod 4 Ultra, cũng có khả năng phát hiện ngáy ngủ mà sẽ tự động nâng đầu bạn lên một vài độ để cải thiện luồng không khí và ngăn bạn ngáy ngủ. Nếu bạn quyết định thử Eight Sleep, bạn có 30 ngày để thử nó ở nhà, và bạn có thể trả lại nếu không thích, không cần hỏi lý do. Nhưng tôi chắc chắn rằng bạn sẽ thích nó.
    Hãy truy cập 8sleep.com/huberman để tiết kiệm lên đến 350 đô la cho Pod 4 Ultra của bạn. Eight Sleep giao hàng đến nhiều nước trên toàn thế giới, bao gồm Mexico và UAE. Một lần nữa, đó là 8sleep.com/huberman để tiết kiệm lên đến 350 đô la cho Pod 4 Ultra của bạn.
    Giờ hãy nói về cực đoan khác của sự chịu đựng, đó là sự chịu đựng lâu dài. Đây là kiểu mà mọi người thường nghĩ đến khi họ nói về sự chịu đựng. Bạn đang nói về một cuộc chạy dài, bơi dài, đạp xe dài. Chà, lâu bao nhiêu? Có thể từ 12 phút đến vài giờ, hoặc thậm chí một ngày hoàn toàn, có thể là tám hoặc chín giờ đi bộ, chạy hoặc đạp xe. Một số người thực sự đang tham gia những sự kiện dài như vậy, chẳng hạn như marathon. Bạn đang vào một nỗ lực lặp đi lặp lại thường xuyên, và khả năng của bạn để tiếp tục nỗ lực đó chủ yếu phụ thuộc vào hiệu quả của chuyển động, khả năng của bạn để tạo ra sự cân bằng giữa chính chuyển động, sự phát sinh của các chuyển động cơ bắp cần thiết và việc sử dụng năng lượng từ nhiều nguồn khác nhau.
    Việc sử dụng năng lượng từ các nguồn khác nhau của thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, tim và phổi. Vậy hãy đặt ra câu hỏi, tại sao bạn lại thất bại trong một cuộc chạy dài? Tại sao bạn lại bỏ cuộc? Vâng, tâm trí của bạn sẽ sử dụng nhiều hay ít năng lượng tùy thuộc vào mức độ ý chí, mức độ chiến đấu mà bạn phải tự mình vượt qua để tạo ra nỗ lực. Tôi thực sự muốn nhấn mạnh rằng ý chí phần nào đó là khả năng dành tài nguyên cho những điều. Và một phần của điều đó là việc đưa ra quyết định chỉ là làm hoặc không làm. Tôi không phải là người có tư tưởng “chỉ cần làm”. Tôi nghĩ rằng có một thời điểm và một nơi đúng để luyện tập, nhưng tôi cũng nghĩ rằng điều đó không tốt. Nói cách khác, nó sử dụng quá nhiều tài nguyên để lăn lộn trong việc đưa ra quyết định, và bạn có thể tiêu tốn nhiều năng lượng nhận thức để quyết định nên tập luyện hay không cũng nhiều như bạn dành cho việc tập luyện thực tế. Khi bạn ra ngoài chạy trong 30 phút, bạn đang xây dựng khả năng để lặp lại màn trình diễn đó lần sau khi hiệu quả hơn, thực sự tiêu tốn ít năng lượng hơn.
    Và điều này có thể có vẻ hơi ngược lại, nhưng mỗi khi bạn thực hiện bài chạy đó, những gì bạn đang làm là xây dựng mật độ ti thể. Không phải chỉ là về quá trình oxy hóa và hô hấp của ti thể. Bạn đang gia tăng mật độ ti thể. Bạn thực sự đang tăng lượng ATP mà bạn có thể tạo ra cho một khoảng thời gian nỗ lực nhất định. Bạn trở nên hiệu quả hơn. Được rồi. Bạn tiêu tốn ít năng lượng hơn khi thực hiện cùng một việc. Đó thực sự là điều mà những bài tập chạy khoảng cách dài, chậm hoặc những nỗ lực dài là về. Vậy tại sao lại thực hiện nỗ lực kéo dài như vậy? Tại sao bạn muốn làm điều đó? Tại sao điều đó lại tốt cho bạn? Vâng, nó thực hiện một điều rất quan trọng, đó là nó xây dựng các mạng lưới mao mạch trong cơ bắp. Đây là những con đường nhỏ như những dòng suối và cửa sông nho nhỏ giữa các động mạch và tĩnh mạch lớn hơn. Bạn thực sự có thể xây dựng mao mạch mới. Bạn có thể tạo ra những dòng chảy nhỏ mới trong cơ bắp của bạn. Và loại nỗ lực kéo dài mà tôi đã đề cập trước đó, từ 12 phút trở lên với nỗ lực đều đặn là rất hữu ích cho việc đó. Và rất hữu ích cho việc tăng cường số lượng ti thể, các yếu tố sản xuất năng lượng của tế bào, thực sự là tế bào cơ bắp. Và lý do là khi máu đến cơ bắp, nó có oxy. Cơ bắp sẽ sử dụng một phần oxy đó. Và sau đó, một phần máu không có oxy sẽ được gửi trở lại tim và phổi. Bây giờ, càng nhiều mao mạch bạn xây dựng vào những cơ đó, thì càng có nhiều oxy có sẵn cho những cơ đó. Vì vậy, công việc kéo dài này, không giống như sự bền bỉ cơ bắp như plank và mọi thứ mà chúng ta đã nói trước đó, thực sự là về việc xây dựng các hệ thống mao mạch và ti thể, các hệ thống sử dụng năng lượng bên trong chính các cơ. Rồi có hai loại ở giữa mà trong những năm gần đây đã thu hút nhiều sự chú ý và phấn khích, đôi khi được gọi là đào tạo cường độ cao theo chu kỳ. Vậy hãy nói về sự bền bỉ kỵ khí trước tiên. Từ góc độ giao thức, sự bền bỉ kỵ khí sẽ là từ 3 đến 12 hiệp. Được rồi. Và những hiệp này sẽ được thực hiện với bất kỳ tốc độ nào cho phép bạn hoàn thành công việc với hình thức an toàn, tốt. Được rồi. Vậy nên có thể nhanh. Có thể chậm. Khi công việc tiếp tục, số lần lặp có thể chậm lại hoặc có thể tăng tốc. Có khả năng là nó sẽ chậm lại. Vậy công việc này có gì? Những hiệp này trông như thế nào? Nhớ rằng khoảng cách dài, chậm là một hiệp. Sự bền bỉ của cơ bắp là từ 3 đến 5 hiệp. Sự bền bỉ kỵ khí cường độ cao sẽ nằm ở đâu đó giữa. từ 3 đến 12 hiệp. Và nó sẽ có tỷ lệ công việc so với nghỉ từ 3 đến 1 đến 1 đến 5. Được rồi. Vậy một hiệp có tỷ lệ 3:1 sẽ trông như thế nào? Vâng, nó sẽ là 30 giây đạp xe mạnh, chẳng hạn, hoặc chạy hoặc trên máy kéo. Đây chỉ là những ví dụ. Nó có thể là trong hồ bơi bơi lội. Nó có thể là rất nhiều thứ khác hoặc các bài squat không có tạ hoặc, bạn biết đấy, hoặc squat với tạ. Nếu bạn có thể quản lý 30 giây hoạt động, 10 giây nghỉ. Đó là một khoảng nghỉ rất ngắn. Vậy tỷ lệ 3:1 là một ví dụ tốt sẽ là 30 giây hoạt động và 10 giây nghỉ. Đối tượng cực ngược lại của tỷ lệ đó sẽ là 1:5. Vậy là 20 giây hoạt động, 100 giây nghỉ. Bạn thực hiện công việc trong 20 giây, rồi nghỉ 100 giây. Vậy hãy cùng xem xét tỷ lệ 3:1. Vì vậy, trong tỷ lệ 3:1, nếu bạn thực hiện 30 giây đạp xe mạnh trên xe đạp, sau đó là 10 giây. Vì vậy có thể là một trong những, cái được gọi là xe đạp tấn công. Sau đó, bạn dừng lại trong 10 giây và sau đó lặp lại. Có khả năng bạn sẽ có thể thực hiện một, hai, ba, bốn, có thể thậm chí là tới 12 hiệp. Nếu bạn thực sự có sức khỏe tốt, bạn có thể thực hiện tất cả những điều đó vì việc đạp xe không yêu cầu nhiều kỹ năng. Và nếu bạn thực hiện sai cách, nếu khuỷu tay của bạn xòe ra một chút hoặc điều gì đó, thì rất ít khả năng bạn sẽ bị chấn thương trừ khi nó thực sự là cực đoan. Được rồi. Nhưng cùng một động tác, ví dụ, với tạ kettlebell. Vì vậy, 30 giây hoạt động 10 giây nghỉ. Hiệp đầu tiên có thể sẽ ở dạng tốt. Hiệp thứ hai sẽ ở dạng khá tốt, nhưng giả sử bạn đang thực hiện đến hiệp thứ năm và thứ sáu và bạn thực hiện 30 giây hoạt động 10 giây nghỉ. Có khả năng chất lượng của các lần lặp lại của bạn sẽ giảm đáng kể. Và bạn tăng xác suất rằng bạn sẽ bị chấn thương. Nếu chất lượng hình thức là quan trọng. Vì vậy có thể đây là khi sử dụng tạ. Có thể bạn đang thực hiện squat. Vì vậy bạn sẽ thực hiện 20 giây hoạt động và 100 giây nghỉ. Điều bạn sẽ thấy là khoảng nghỉ dài hơn, mặc dù là 20 giây nỗ lực mạnh mẽ, được theo sau bởi một khoảng nghỉ dài hơn khoảng 100 giây sẽ cho phép bạn thực hiện nhiều lần lặp lại chất lượng hơn một cách an toàn theo thời gian. Vậy có thể là ba hiệp của 20 giây nỗ lực mạnh, tiếp theo là 100 giây nghỉ. Sau đó bạn lặp lại 20 giây nỗ lực mạnh, 100 giây nghỉ, 20 giây nỗ lực, 100 giây nghỉ. Và bạn có thể thực hiện điều đó hai lần một tuần. Khi thực hiện điều đó, bạn sẽ xây dựng những gì chúng ta gọi là sự bền bỉ kỵ khí. Sự bền bỉ kỵ khí sẽ đưa hệ thống của bạn lên hơn 100% VO2 max của bạn. Nó sẽ đưa nhịp tim của bạn lên rất cao, và nó sẽ tối đa hóa hệ thống sử dụng oxy của bạn. Điều đó sẽ có những tác động dẫn đến mệt mỏi vào một thời điểm nào đó trong buổi tập luyện, và cảm giác đó sẽ kích hoạt một sự thích nghi. Vậy hãy hỏi điều gì nó kích hoạt. Vâng, nó kích hoạt cả hô hấp ti thể, khả năng của ti thể của bạn tạo ra nhiều năng lượng hơn bằng cách sử dụng nhiều oxy hơn, bởi vì bạn đang đưa vào rất nhiều, bạn đang tối đa hóa. Thực sự, bạn đang vượt qua VO2 max của mình, bạn đang chạm đến ngưỡng mà bạn có thể sử dụng bao nhiêu oxy trong hệ thống của bạn. Một trong những sự thích nghi sẽ là ti thể của bạn sẽ chuyển đổi để có thể sử dụng nhiều oxy hơn.
    Và bạn cũng sẽ tăng cường các giường mao mạch, nhưng không nhiều như bạn có thể tăng cường lượng sự tham gia của tế bào thần kinh vào cơ bắp.
    Vì vậy, thường thì, khi chúng ta bắt đầu mệt mỏi, khi chúng ta kiệt sức, khi chúng ta thở rất mạnh, vì các hệ thống của cơ thể liên kết với nhau, và cũng có một yếu tố tâm lý trong điều này, một loại yếu tố động lực.
    Sau bộ thứ ba hoặc thứ tư hoặc thứ sáu, bạn biết đó, 20 giây hoạt động rồi 100 giây nghỉ, hoặc nếu bạn ở cực trái ngược, 30 giây hoạt động và 10 giây nghỉ, sẽ có một yếu tố bạn muốn dừng lại.
    Và việc vượt qua và lặp lại một bộ nữa một cách an toàn, tất nhiên, điều bạn đang làm là huấn luyện các tế bào thần kinh có thể truy cập nhiều năng lượng hơn, thực sự chuyển đổi điều đó thành ATP, và do đó, cho các cơ bắp truy cập nhiều năng lượng và ATP hơn.
    Và sự thích nghi nằm ở khả năng của ty thể trong việc sử dụng oxy.
    Và điều này có những hiệu ứng tích cực rất lớn cho các loại bài tập khác.
    Điều này có thể có lợi trong thể thao cạnh tranh hoặc thể thao đồng đội nơi có yếu tố chạy nước rút, nơi sân cỏ mở ra và bạn cần phải dẫn bóng xuống sân, chẳng hạn, và sút vào khung thành.
    Hoặc khi bạn chơi tennis, và đó là một cuộc truyền bóng dài, và sau đó bỗng nhiên, có ai đó thực sự bắt đầu, bạn biết đấy, làm bạn phải cưỡng chế, và bạn phải rất nỗ lực để chạy đến lưới và đưa bóng qua những thứ tương tự.
    Được rồi.
    Có nhiều nơi có sự chuyển giao từ loại đào tạo này, nhưng nó hỗ trợ sức bền.
    Nó liên quan đến sức bền của cơ bắp.
    Nó liên quan đến khả năng của các cơ này tạo ra nhiều lực trong thời gian ngắn, nhưng lặp đi lặp lại.
    Được rồi, đó là cách để hình dung điều này.
    Và nó khác với sức mạnh tối đa.
    Mặc dù cảm giác như nỗ lực tối đa, nhưng nó không giống như việc xây dựng sức mạnh và tốc độ trong các cơ bắp.
    Đó là những giao thức khác biệt rõ ràng.
    Vì vậy, các yếu tố chính, một lần nữa, là bạn đang tăng cường việc thở và sử dụng oxy của mình lên cao hơn mức tối đa.
    Nó không hoàn toàn chạm vào thất bại, nhưng bạn thực sự đang ép hệ thống đến mức bạn không sẵn sàng thực hiện một bộ khác.
    Và bạn vẫn bắt đầu một bộ khác.
    Bạn không nhất thiết đã sẵn sàng về mặt tâm lý.
    Tôi muốn chắc chắn đề cập đến giao thức thứ tư, đó là điều kiện aerobic cường độ cao.
    Vì vậy, HIIT có hai hình thức này, kỵ khí và hiệp khí.
    Và bạn vừa nghe về kỵ khí.
    Điều kiện aerobic cường độ cao cũng bao gồm khoảng ba đến mười hai bộ.
    Tỷ lệ một đối một là rất mạnh mẽ trong việc xây dựng, trung bình, hầu hết các hệ thống năng lượng liên quan.
    Nhớ rằng, chúng ta có các dây thần kinh, cơ bắp, máu, tim và phổi.
    Tỷ lệ một đối một có thể là bạn chạy một dặm và bất kể mất bao lâu.
    Bạn có thể chạy dặm đầu tiên, giả sử là bảy phút.
    Sau đó bạn nghỉ bảy phút.
    Rồi bạn chạy một dặm nữa.
    Và có thể mất tám phút và bạn nghỉ tám phút.
    Và bạn tiếp tục như vậy cho một tổng số bốn dặm công việc, bốn dặm công việc chạy, tôi nên nói.
    Bạn có thể tích lũy điều này.
    Nhiều người thấy rằng việc sử dụng loại đào tạo này cho phép họ thực hiện những việc như chạy nửa marathon và marathon, ngay cả khi trước ngày đua, họ chưa bao giờ thực sự chạy nửa marathon hoặc marathon.
    Bây giờ điều đó có vẻ đáng kinh ngạc.
    Giống như, làm thế nào mà việc chạy một dặm rồi, rồi nghỉ để chạy một dặm rồi nghỉ trong một khoảng thời gian tương đương, chạy một dặm, nghỉ trong khoảng thời gian tương đương cho bảy dặm lại cho phép bạn chạy liên tục trong 13 dặm hoặc 26 dặm?
    Nó cải thiện ATP và chức năng ty thể trong cơ bắp.
    Nó cho phép máu cung cấp nhiều oxy hơn cho cơ bắp và cho não của bạn.
    Và nó cho phép trái tim bạn cung cấp nhiều oxy tổng thể hơn.
    Và nó xây dựng một sức chứa phổi đáng kể.
    Vậy điều này sẽ như thế nào?
    Và khi nào bạn nên thực hiện điều này?
    Thực ra, đây là một câu hỏi cho các buổi tập này khi đặt ra câu hỏi rằng một người có thể làm bao nhiêu công việc trong tám đến mười hai phút, đúng không?
    Và sau đó nghỉ và sau đó lặp lại.
    Bạn có thể làm bao nhiêu công việc trong tám đến mười hai phút, sau đó nghỉ và rồi lặp lại?
    Và bạn nên thực hiện điều này bao nhiêu lần?
    Chà, đó là kiểu điều, nó khá căng thẳng.
    Và vì vậy, bạn có thể chỉ muốn làm điều này hai, có thể ba lần một tuần nếu bạn không thực hiện nhiều điều khác.
    Vì vậy, chúng ta có bốn loại sức bền, sức bền cơ bắp.
    Chúng ta có sức bền lâu dài.
    Chúng ta có đào tạo interval cường độ cao của hai loại, kỵ khí và hiệp khí.
    Và loại cuối cùng này, loại hiệp khí thì hoạt động tốt nhất.
    Có vẻ như nếu bạn làm theo tỷ lệ một đối một này.
    Vậy bạn sẽ sử dụng chúng như thế nào và chúng thực sự đang làm gì?
    Chúng thực sự đang làm gì?
    Hãy nói về trái tim và phổi và oxy, vì đó là điều mà chúng ta đều có thể hưởng lợi từ việc hiểu biết.
    Não và tim có lẽ là hai hệ thống quan trọng nhất mà bạn cần chăm sóc trong cuộc sống của mình.
    Duy trì hoặc cải thiện chức năng não và chức năng tim mạch, rõ ràng là chìa khóa cho sức khỏe và thời gian sống lâu dài trong ngắn hạn và dài hạn.
    Và các loại đào tạo mà tôi đã nói đến hôm nay đã được chứng minh nhiều lần là rất hữu ích trong việc tăng cường sức mạnh của tâm trí.
    Vâng, tôi sẽ nói về điều đó cũng như sức khỏe của não và cơ thể.
    Tôi muốn nghỉ một chút và công nhận một trong những nhà tài trợ của chúng tôi, Function.
    Gần đây, tôi đã trở thành thành viên của Function sau khi tìm kiếm một cách tiếp cận toàn diện nhất cho việc xét nghiệm lab.
    Trong khi tôi đã rất yêu thích việc xét nghiệm máu, tôi thực sự muốn tìm một chương trình sâu hơn để phân tích máu, nước tiểu, và nước bọt của mình nhằm có bức tranh toàn diện hơn về sức khỏe tim mạch của tôi, tình trạng hormone của tôi, tình trạng điều hòa miễn dịch của tôi, chức năng chuyển hóa của tôi, tình trạng vitamin và khoáng chất của tôi, và các lĩnh vực quan trọng khác của sức khỏe và sự sống động tổng thể của tôi.
    Function không chỉ cung cấp xét nghiệm hơn 100 dấu hiệu sinh học quan trọng cho sức khỏe thể chất và tinh thần, mà nó còn phân tích những kết quả này và cung cấp những hiểu biết từ các bác sĩ hàng đầu.
    Ví dụ, trong một trong những bài kiểm tra đầu tiên của tôi với Function, tôi đã biết rằng mình có mức thủy ngân cao trong máu. Function không chỉ giúp tôi phát hiện ra điều đó mà còn cung cấp những thông tin về cách tốt nhất để giảm mức thủy ngân của tôi, bao gồm việc hạn chế tiêu thụ cá ngừ. Và thật lòng mà nói, vào thời điểm đó, tôi đã ăn rất nhiều cá ngừ, trong khi cũng cố gắng ăn nhiều rau xanh hơn và bổ sung NAC và acetylcysteine, cả hai đều có thể hỗ trợ sản xuất glutathione và giải độc. Và thú thật, nó đã hiệu quả. Mức thủy ngân của tôi hiện nay đã nằm trong khoảng an toàn. Các xét nghiệm lab toàn diện như vậy rất quan trọng cho sức khỏe vì thực sự có rất nhiều điều xảy ra trong máu của chúng ta và ở những nơi khác trong cơ thể mà chúng ta không thể phát hiện nếu không có xét nghiệm máu và nước tiểu chất lượng. Và trong khi tôi đã cố gắng để có những bài kiểm tra đó trong nhiều năm, nó luôn quá phức tạp và thực sự, khá đắt tiền. Function đã đơn giản hóa tất cả điều đó và làm cho nó rất phải chăng. Tôi đã rất ấn tượng với Function đến mức tôi quyết định tham gia vào hội đồng tư vấn khoa học của họ, và tôi rất vui vì họ đang tài trợ cho podcast này. Nếu bạn muốn thử Function, bạn có thể truy cập functionhealth.com/huberman. Chỉ trong tuần này, từ ngày 14 tháng 4 đến 20 tháng 4 năm 2025, Function đang cung cấp tín dụng 100 đô la cho 1.000 người đầu tiên đăng ký thành viên Function. Để nhận tín dụng 100 đô la này, hãy sử dụng mã Huberman100 khi thanh toán. Truy cập functionhealth.com/huberman để tìm hiểu thêm và bắt đầu. Vậy hãy nói về những loại thích nghi đang xảy ra trong não và cơ thể của bạn, rất có lợi trong những loại hình tập luyện khác nhau này. Nếu bạn đang thở hổn hển và tim của bạn đang đập nhanh, chắc chắn đó sẽ là trong chế độ tập luyện cường độ cao, cả hiếu khí và kỵ khí, vì bạn đang đạt gần đến VO2 max trong chế độ tập luyện hiếu khí cường độ cao, và bạn đang vượt quá VO2 max trong chế độ tập luyện kỵ khí cường độ cao. Điều gì sẽ xảy ra là, tất nhiên, khi tim bạn đập nhanh hơn, máu sẽ lưu thông nhanh hơn về nguyên tắc. Việc sử dụng oxy trong cơ bắp sẽ tăng lên. Và theo thời gian, không lâu, rất nhanh, điều gì sẽ xảy ra khi các giường mao mạch đó bắt đầu mở rộng, thêm vào đó, vì lượng máu đang trở về tim, khi bạn tham gia vào những nỗ lực thực sự mãnh liệt này, lặp đi lặp lại, lượng máu trở về tim thực sự gây ra một tải trọng lệch tâm lên một trong những thành cơ của tim. Vậy tim của bạn là cơ, nó là cơ tim. Chúng ta có cơ xương gắn với xương của chúng ta, và chúng ta có cơ tim, đó là tim của chúng ta. Khi nhiều máu trở về tim hơn vì công việc bổ sung mà cơ bắp và dây thần kinh của bạn thực hiện, điều đó thực sự có tác dụng tạo ra một tải trọng lệch tâm, một kiểu đẩy của thành bên trái. Tôi nhận ra tôi không sử dụng đúng cách giải phẫu ở đây, nhưng tôi không muốn đi sâu vào tất cả các đặc điểm của các cấu trúc tim. Nhưng tâm thất trái thực sự bị đập mạnh và sau đó cần phải đẩy lại và kiểu tải trọng lệch tâm của cơ tim và cơ sẽ dày lên khi nhiều máu được đưa trở lại tim. Có một sự thích nghi ở đó mà cơ tim thực sự mạnh hơn và do đó có thể bơm nhiều máu hơn mỗi nhịp, mỗi lần đập. Và khi nó làm điều đó, nó cung cấp, vì máu chứa glucose và oxy và những thứ khác, nó cung cấp nhiều năng lượng hơn cho cơ bắp của bạn, cho phép bạn thực hiện thêm nhiều công việc hơn trong một đơn vị thời gian. Nếu bạn thực hiện loại tập luyện cường độ cao mà trái tim của bạn đập rất mạnh, có thể là tỷ lệ một trên một trong những lần chạy một dặm mà tôi đã mô tả trước đó, rất nhanh chóng, thể tích nhát bơm của trái tim bạn sẽ thực sự tăng lên. Và do đó, bạn có thể cung cấp nhiều năng lượng hơn cho cơ bắp và não của bạn. Chức năng nhận thức của bạn sẽ cải thiện. Điều này đã được chứng minh nhiều lần vì có sự tăng trưởng trong mạch máu, thực sự là các giường mao mạch bên trong não, vùng hải mã, những khu vực hỗ trợ trí nhớ, nhưng cũng là những khu vực của não. Nhưng cũng là những khu vực của não hỗ trợ hô hấp, hỗ trợ sự tập trung, hỗ trợ nỗ lực. Giờ đây, tập tạ cũng có một số tác động tích cực đến chức năng não. Tuy nhiên, rất rõ ràng và bạn nên hiểu một cách trực quan bây giờ tại sao các loại tập luyện sức mạnh và phát triển cơ bắp tiêu chuẩn sẽ không kích hoạt việc cung cấp oxy trong máu và tăng thể tích nhát bơm cho tim mà những loại hình tập luyện mà tôi đang nói đến hôm nay sẽ làm. Nó không có cùng hiệu ứng tích cực. Một điều khác mà thực sự quan trọng cần suy nghĩ về trong công việc loại bền bỉ là độ ẩm. Và tôi nghĩ rằng độ ẩm là quan trọng cho tất cả các hình thức công việc thể chất và tập thể dục, không chỉ riêng cho bền bỉ. Thông thường, chúng ta sẽ mất từ một đến năm pound nước mỗi giờ tập luyện. Và điều này sẽ thay đổi rất nhiều. Nó sẽ thay đổi theo thời tiết. Nó sẽ thay đổi theo cường độ, có lẽ là khoảng năm pound nếu đó là một ngày nóng và bạn đang tập luyện rất cường độ. Vì vậy, nếu bạn nghĩ về trọng lượng của mình bằng pound, khi bạn mất khoảng từ một đến bốn phần trăm trọng lượng cơ thể của mình trong nước, bạn sẽ trải qua khoảng 20 đến 30% giảm năng lực làm việc, trong khả năng tạo ra nỗ lực của bất kỳ loại nào, sức mạnh, bền bỉ, vv. Bạn cũng sẽ trải qua một sự suy giảm đáng kể trong khả năng suy nghĩ và thực hiện các hoạt động tâm thần. Vì vậy, độ ẩm là chìa khóa. Kali, natri và magiê thực sự là rất quan trọng. Vâng, điều đó là đúng. Bạn có thể chết nếu uống quá nhiều nước, đặc biệt là vì điều đó khiến bạn. Nếu bạn uống quá nhiều nước, bạn sẽ bài tiết quá nhiều điện giải, và não của bạn sẽ ngưng hoạt động. Trên thực tế, tim của bạn sẽ ngừng hoạt động đúng cách. Vì vậy, bạn cũng không muốn tiêu thụ quá nhiều nước đến mức cực đoan. Một công thức đơn giản, mà tôi gọi là phương trình Galpin, đó là trọng lượng cơ thể của bạn tính bằng pound chia cho số 30.
    Và đó là số ounces bạn nên uống cho mỗi 15 phút tập thể dục. Giờ đây, nếu bạn đổ mồ hôi nhiều, bạn có thể cần nhiều hơn. Nếu bạn đã rất được hydrat hóa, bạn có thể cần ít hơn, nhưng đó là một quy tắc tốt để bắt đầu. Và để bắt đầu hiểu mối quan hệ giữa việc hydrat hóa và hiệu suất. Chúng ta không nói nhiều về thực phẩm bổ sung ngày hôm nay. Trong các tập trước, tôi đã nói về hệ thống phosphocreatine và việc bổ sung creatine. Chúng ta đã nói về beta alanine cho công việc có thời gian vừa phải. Thực sự, những điều duy nhất đã được chứng minh là cải thiện công việc bền bỉ trong bốn dạng công việc bền bỉ mà tôi đã mô tả hôm nay. Chúng có hai hình thức cơ bản. Một là các chất kích thích. Vì vậy, những thứ như caffeine chắc chắn sẽ cải thiện công việc bền bỉ và sản lượng năng lượng. Một số dạng magnesium, đặc biệt là magnesium malate (M-A-L-A-T-E), đã được chứng minh là hữu ích cho việc loại bỏ hoặc giảm thiểu độ đau cơ chậm xuất hiện. Dạng magnesium này khác biệt rõ rệt so với các loại magnesium tốt cho giấc ngủ, như magnesium threonate và bi-glycinate. Nói chung, hôm nay chúng ta chủ yếu tập trung vào các công cụ hành vi. Và tôi hy vọng tôi đã truyền đạt cho bạn rằng sự bền bỉ không chỉ là một điều. Nó không chỉ là khả năng thực hiện các bài tập kéo dài khác nhau. Mà còn có yếu tố tinh thần nữa, vì cách mà các neuron hoạt động. Và cũng có những dạng bền bỉ khác nhau, của sự bền bỉ cơ bắp, nơi bạn sẽ thất bại vì cơ bắp và việc sử dụng năng lượng của cơ bắp cũng như các dây thần kinh chi phối các cơ bắp đó ở khu vực địa phương, chứ không phải vì không đủ oxy hay máu. Trong khi đó, nỗ lực kéo dài sẽ chủ yếu liên quan đến việc bạn ở dưới mức VO2 tối đa của mình và khả năng của bạn để hiệu quả cho các cơn tập kéo dài hơn 12 phút. Một lần, như họ nói, từ 12 phút đến có thể là vài giờ. Tập huấn cường độ cao sẽ khai thác các nguồn năng lượng và cơ chế khác như chúng ta đã học hôm nay. Và cuối cùng nhưng không kém phần quan trọng, cảm ơn bạn đã quan tâm đến khoa học.
    歡迎來到 Huberman Lab Essentials,
    在這裡我們將重溫過去的節目,
    以獲取最有效且可操作的科學基礎工具,
    用於心理健康、身體健康和表現。
    我是安德魯·胡伯曼,
    我在斯坦福醫學院擔任神經生物學和眼科的教授。
    這個播客與我在斯坦福的教學
    和研究角色是分開的。
    然而,這是我希望和努力
    以零成本向大眾提供有關科學及其相關工具資訊的一部分。
    今天,我想談談耐力,
    以及如何建立耐力,
    並如何利用耐力
    來促進整個身體的健康。
    耐力,顧名思義,
    是我們持續進行運動
    或持續移動或持續努力的能力。
    顯然,有氧運動,
    在一段時間內讓心率持續上升的運動,
    對於開發和增強我們在身體和大腦中的多種生理功能至關重要,
    使我們的腦子能夠在更長的時間內執行工作,
    進行專注的工作、學習等。
    關於身體能量產生的關鍵點是我們所稱的 ATP。
    ATP 是任何需要能量的事物所必需的,
    任何需要努力的行為。
    因此,我們的肌肉和神經元使用不同的燃料來源
    來生成 ATP。
    在短時間的劇烈活動中,
    首先使用的燃料是像磷酸肌酸這類物質。
    如果你只聽說過肌酸作為一種補充劑,
    實際上,磷酸肌酸存在於我們的肌肉中,
    這就是為什麼人們會服用肌酸。
    你可以讓你的肌肉儲存更多的肌酸。
    磷酸肌酸非常適用於短暫而劇烈的努力。
    然後你開始使用像葡萄糖這樣的東西,
    它實際上就是碳水化合物。
    它就是你血液中的糖分。
    如果你持續努力,
    你開始利用其他燃料來源,如肝醣。
    你在脂肪組織中存有脂肪。
    即使你的體脂百分比非常非常低,
    你也可以從這些脂肪中提取脂質和脂肪酸。
    它就像一個儲存包。
    它是一個可以轉換為 ATP 的能量儲存包。
    不需要進一步的詳細說明,
    當我今天提到能量,或者我說 ATP 時,
    只需記住,無論你的飲食如何,
    無論你的營養計劃如何,
    你的身體都有能力使用肌酸、
    葡萄糖、肝醣、脂質,
    如果你是生酮飲食,則使用酮。
    以便生成燃料、能量。
    現在,另一個關鍵點是,
    為了完成將這些燃料轉化為能量的過程,
    大多數時間你需要氧氣。
    基本上,你需要空氣進入系統中。
    現在,它不是實際的空氣,你需要氧分子
    進入你的系統,透過口鼻進入,去到肺部,
    並通過血流分布。
    氧氣不是燃料,
    但就像沒有氧氣的火一樣,
    你實際上無法燒木頭。
    但當你向火中吹入大量的氧氣,
    基本上對著有火焰的木頭,
    那麼它基本上會著火,
    它會燃燒,對吧?
    氧氣讓你能夠燃燒燃料。
    因此,今天我們要提出關鍵問題。
    什麼讓我們能夠表現?
    什麼讓我們能夠持續努力很長時間?
    我們通常會想到意志力,
    但什麼是意志力?
    意志力是神經元。
    它是我們大腦中的神經元。
    我們有一種稱為中央調節器的東西,
    它決定我們是否應該
    或能夠繼續
    或者是否應該停止,
    我們是否應該放棄。
    所以我們必須提出問題,
    表現的限制因素是什麼?
    什麼阻止我們忍耐?
    什麼阻止我們向前邁進?
    哪些因素說,
    你知道嗎?
    不再了。
    我不會繼續這次奔跑。
    現在,有五個主要類別的東西
    使我們能夠進行努力。
    我並不想完全忽略像免疫系統
    和身體其他系統的事情,
    但神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺
    是我今天想要關注的五個類別,
    因為那裡有大多數的數據。
    讓我們談談神經元及其工作原理,好嗎?
    但是我想告訴你一個實驗,
    它將非常清楚地顯示
    為什麼放棄是一種心理現象,
    而不是生理現象。
    那麼,為什麼我們會放棄呢?
    幾年前進行了一項實驗,
    並發表在《Cell》雜誌上,
    《Cell Press》期刊,這是一個優秀的期刊,
    顯示我們腦幹中有一類神經元,
    在我們大腦的後部,
    如果它們關閉,我們就會放棄。
    這些神經元釋放腎上腺素。
    腎上腺素就是腎上腺素。
    每當我們進行任何努力時,
    我們都會釋放腎上腺素。
    只要我們清醒,
    我們的腦內就會釋放腎上腺素。
    事實上,這組小神經元
    在我們的大腦後部,
    如果你想稱之為藍斑,
    始終在釋放腎上腺素。
    但如果某些事情使我們感到壓力,
    它會釋放更多,然後它會作為整個大腦的警覺信號。
    當然,我們的身體中也會釋放腎上腺素,
    使我們的身體為各種活動做好準備。
    因此,將腎上腺素視為準備信號。
    當我們正在努力時,
    這一準備信號將被引入我們的大腦。
    當我們放鬆並入睡時,
    腎上腺素水平較低。
    因此,我們想要繼續的渴望,或者換句話說,
    我們願意繼續的意願和我們想要放棄的渴望
    是由我們兩耳之間的事件所調節。
    這並不意味著身體沒有參與,
    但這意味著神經元是至關重要的。
    所以我們有兩類重要的神經元。
    一類是在我們的頭腦中,告訴我們起來
    並去進行跑步的神經元。
    另一類則是鼓勵我們
    繼續跑步的神經元。
    我們還有一些會關閉的神經元,告訴我們不再了。
    我們當然有連接到肌肉的神經元,並且控制我們的肌肉。但我們放棄的原因很少是因為身體放棄,而是因為心靈放棄。因此,當人們說有沒有,我聽到這樣的說法,你知道的,運動或努力或奮鬥,或者說是90%心理,10%身體。關於多少是心理,多少是身體的整個討論無疑是愚蠢的。這其實是100%的神經系統,完全是神經元。好吧,當人們談到心理或身體時,明白這完全是神經問題。
    那麼,神經元需要什麼才能持續發動?你需要什麼才能讓神經元說:「我會堅持下去」?他們需要葡萄糖。除非你是生酮飲食並已適應生酮,否則你需要的碳水化合物就是葡萄糖。這是神經元運作的來源。而且你需要電解質。神經元有一種被稱為鈉鉀泵的東西,等等。他們產生電能,以便讓神經細胞發動、收縮肌肉,告訴自己「我要繼續」。你需要足夠的鈉鹽,因為行動電位,即神經元的實際發動,是由鈉進入細胞並迅速進入細胞驅動的。然後會移除鉀,然後通過一種稱為鈉鉀泵的東西重置這些水平,鈉鉀泵以及鈉和行動電位。即使你對這些一無所知,甚至不知道這需要ATP的依賴,這也需要能量。因此,你需要能量才能讓神經元發動。此外,這是pH依賴的。這取決於大腦內部的環境是否具有某種pH或酸度。pH是環境酸性或鹼性的程度。神經需要鹽,需鉀。而且它們還需要鎂。你還需要葡萄糖和碳水化合物來為這些神經元提供能量,除非你是在利用酮體。
    肌肉。肌肉將首先利用這個磷酸肌酸系統來啟動和產生能量。高強度的努力,真的很強烈的努力,持續的時間通常是幾秒到幾分鐘,但更可能是幾秒鐘,將會是這個磷酸肌酸,真的是一種在肌肉中燃燒的燃料來源,就像你在燃燒火堆中的柴一樣。而糖原,這是在肌肉中儲存的碳水化合物,他們將其轉換成ATP,以產生那種能量。然後我們的血液中有可用作能量來源的東西。在血液中,我們有葡萄糖。所以字面上說,圍繞著的血糖。假設你已經禁食了三天,你的血糖將會非常低。因此,這不會是一個很好的燃料來源,但你將開始從你的脂肪組織,從你的脂肪中釋放脂肪。脂肪酸將會開始動員進入血流中,你可以燃燒這些獲取能量。
    現在,還有一些其他重要因素,那就是心臟,這將促進血液的流動。因此,心臟能夠更好地推動血液和氧氣,這樣就會有更多的燃料可以用於你參與肌肉工作和思考的努力。正如我已經提到過幾次的,氧氣非常重要。你需要將氧氣注入並分配到這些組織中,因為氧氣對於碳水化合物和脂肪的轉換至關重要。因此,當我們問這個問題,或甚至是中等長度的努力時,我們需要問那些東西,神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺部,哪一個是限制因素?或者換句話說,我們應該如何使用我們的神經元?我們應該如何使用我們的肌肉?我們應該如何使用我們的血液?我們應該如何使用我們的心臟?我們應該如何使用我們的肺部?這將使我們能夠為心理和身體的工作建立耐力,並且能夠做得更長、更遠、更有強度。
    我想稍作休息,感謝我們的贊助商,AG1。AG1是一種維生素礦物質益生菌飲品,還含有適應原。我在2012年開始飲用AG1,那時我甚至不知道什麼是播客。我開始飲用它,並且每天都在飲用,因為它確保我滿足每日維生素和礦物質的配額,並幫助我確保獲取足夠的益生元和益生菌,以支持我的腸道健康。在過去的10年中,腸道健康已被認為是重要的,不僅對我們的消化系統,也對我們的免疫系統以及神經遞質和神經調節劑的生成(例如多巴胺和血清素)至關重要。換句話說,腸道健康對於大腦正常功能至關重要。當然,我努力從未加工的來源中食用健康整食,作為我營養攝取的主要部分,但AG1中有許多特定微量營養素是從整食中難以或不可能獲得的。因此,通過每天服用AG1,我能獲得所需的維生素和礦物質,以及腸道健康所需的益生菌和益生元,反過來又有助於大腦和免疫系統的健康,以及所有器官和組織所需的適應原和關鍵微量營養素。
    所以,每當有人問我如果只需服用一種補充品,那應是什麼時,我總是會說AG1,因為AG1支持許多與我們的心理健康、身體健康和表現有關的系統。如果你想試用AG1,可以訪問drinkag1.com/huberman。在這個月,2025年四月,AG1正提供免費的一個月供應的Omega-3魚油,以及一瓶維生素D3加K2。正如我在這個播客中之前強調的,Omega-3魚油和維生素D3加K2已被證明有助於從情緒和大腦健康到心臟健康和健康的激素生成等很多方面,還有更多。再次提醒,這是drinkag1。
    com/huberman 以獲取免費的一個月供應的Omega-3魚油,並在訂閱時還能獲得一瓶維他命D3加K2。
    那麼,讓我們來談談四種耐力以及如何達成它們。
    首先,我們有肌肉耐力。肌肉耐力是指我們的肌肉能夠長時間進行工作的能力,而我們無法繼續進行該工作的原因是肌肉疲勞,而不是心血管疲勞。因此,並不是因為我們呼吸過於急促,或因為血液無法夠到達肌肉,或者因為心理上放棄,而是因為肌肉本身的力量耗盡了。
    例如,假設你需要在院子裡撿起一塊石頭,那塊石頭對你來說並不特別重,你需要撿起來放下去,重複做50到100次。在某一時刻,你的肌肉將會感到疲勞。
    肌肉耐力的表現範圍通常在12到25次,甚至最多可達100次。所以,俯臥撐就是一個很好的例子。其實很多軍事訓練營式的訓練並不使用重物,反而是進行像俯臥撐、引體向上、仰臥起坐和跑步等動作。因為他們的重點是建立肌肉耐力,即持續相同的肌肉和神經元進行多次工作的能力。
    根據科學文獻,肌肉耐力訓練的理想方案是進行三到五組,每組12到100次,這是一個很大的範圍。對於大多數人來說,12到25次會更為合理,而休息時間則是在30到180秒之間,也就是從半分鐘到三分鐘的休息時間。
    建立肌肉耐力的一個關鍵因素是,它不應包含任何主要的偏心負荷組件。我沒有太多提到偏心和向心負荷,但向心負荷是指當你縮短肌肉時,通常是在舉重。而偏心動作則是指當你拉長肌肉時,通常是在下放重物。因此,如果你做引體向上,並把下巴拉過橫桿,或者做下巴上拉,那就是向心部分的努力。然後,當你放下自己,就進入了偏心部分。
    任何類型的抗阻力訓練中的偏心部分,無論是用於耐力還是力量訓練,都是導致肌肉酸痛的主要原因之一。有些人對此更敏感,但它確實造成了肌肉纖維的更多損傷。肌肉耐力的訓練不應包含任何含有主要偏心負荷的動作。因此,如果你要做俯臥撐,並不是說你要把胸部撞向地面。
    順便說一下,你的胸部應該在每次俯臥撐中觸碰地面。這才是真正的俯臥撐。這是關於向下推直到你的胸部觸地,然後再伸直的過程。這是正確的俯臥撐。而引體向上則是當你把下巴拉過橫桿。這兩者都不應包含緩慢的偏心或下降組件。
    如果你要用這些運動來訓練肌肉耐力,可以進行三到五組12到25次,甚至最多達到100次,每組之間休息30到180秒。但如果你想建立肌肉耐力,你要讓你的肌肉能夠在更長時間內進行更多的工作,這將是三到五組12到100次的訓練,主要進行向心動作,來自於上述的三到五組、休息30到180秒,是主要的向心運動。這不是一個緩慢的下降階段或重的下降階段。
    因此,這可能會是壺鈴擺動和類似的運動。正如我提到的等長訓練,例如平板支撐和靠牆坐也是有效的。
    現在,這裡有趣的是,它看起來並不像人們通常認為的耐力。然而,在優質的同行評審研究中已經顯示,肌肉耐力可以提高我們持續進行長時間、低強度耐力工作的能力。因此,這能支持長時間的跑步,支持長時間的游泳,同時也能同時增強姿勢力量和耐力。
    現在我們來簡單談談為什麼這是有效的科學依據。這讓我們回到了燃料利用與失敗的問題上。
    因此,如果我們說,好吧,假設你在做平板支撐,且你能夠保持平板支撐一分鐘、兩分鐘或三分鐘。在某一時刻,你會失敗。你不是因為心臟停止而失敗,也不是因為無法獲得足夠的氧氣因為你在做的過程中可以呼吸。你會因為局部肌肉的失敗而失敗,這意味著當你選擇進行這個三到五組的訓練方案來建立肌肉耐力時,主要是你會建立你的線粒體利用氧氣在局部產生能量的能力。這稱為線粒體呼吸,因為涉及氧氣的參與。
    這也將增加神經元控制肌肉的程度,並提供刺激讓肌肉收縮。但這是獨立於能力和力量的。因此,即使像三到五組的低組數和你進行重複運動且直到失敗,雖然看起來與力量和超級肥大訓練相似,但它是明顯不同的。
    這不會產生力量、超級肥大和能力。
    這主要是會培養出耐力的能力,持續收縮肌肉或重複收縮肌肉,對吧?如果你使用等長收縮,持續進行;或者如果你使用重複類型的運動,則是肌肉的收縮和伸展,基本上是向心和離心的部分。但要記住,離心部分要輕且相對快速,不要太快以至於受傷,但肯定不應故意放慢速度。
    我想先簡單休息一下,感謝我們的一個贊助商,Element。Element 是一種電解質飲料,包含你所需要的一切,而不包含不需要的成分。這意味著電解質、鈉、鎂和鉀的比例正確,但沒有糖。我們都應該知道,適當的水分補充對於最佳的腦部和身體功能是至關重要的。事實上,即使是輕微的脫水也能顯著降低你的認知和身體表現。
    同樣重要的是,你不僅要保持水分,還要在適當的比例中獲得足夠的電解質。喝一包 Element 溶解在水中可以讓你非常簡單地確保獲得足夠的水分和電解質。為了確保我獲得足夠的水分和電解質,我早上起床時會將一包 Element 溶解在約 16 到 32 盎司的水中,然後基本上是早上第一件事就喝下去。我還會在做任何體育運動時飲用溶解在水中的 Element,尤其是在炎熱的日子裡,當我大量出汗,流失水分和電解質時。
    Element 有很多不同好喝的口味。我喜歡西瓜口味。我喜歡覆盆子口味。我喜歡柑橘口味。基本上,我都喜歡。如果你想試試 Element,可以訪問 drinkelement.com/huberman,購買任何 Element 飲料混合包,便可以獲得一個 Element 試用包。再次提醒,Drink Element 的拼寫是 L-M-N-T。網站是 drinkelement.com/huberman 以索取免費試用包。
    今天的節目也由 Eight Sleep 提供贊助。Eight Sleep 製造具有冷卻、加熱和睡眠追踪功能的智能床墊罩。我之前在這個播客中談到,要獲得每晚足夠的高品質睡眠是非常重要的。確保睡眠環境的溫度正確,是確保良好睡眠的最佳方式之一。因為要進入深度睡眠並保持深度睡眠,身體溫度實際上需要下降大約一到三度。而為了醒來感覺精神煥發和充滿活力,身體溫度則需要上升大約一到三度。
    Eight Sleep 根據你的獨特需求自動調節床鋪的溫度。對我來說,我發現這非常有用,因為我喜歡在晚上開始時把床墊弄得非常涼爽,午夜時更冷,而在醒來的時候則是溫暖的。這樣能夠給我最多的慢波睡眠和快速眼動睡眠。我知道這一點,因為 Eight Sleep 有一個出色的睡眠追踪器,告訴我整晚的睡眠質量以及我獲得的各種睡眠類型。我已在 Eight Sleep 的床墊罩上睡了四年,這完全改變並提升了我的睡眠質量。他們最新的型號 Pod 4 Ultra 也有打鼾檢測,會自動將你的頭抬高幾度,以改善空氣流通,防止你打鼾。
    如果你決定嘗試 Eight Sleep,你有 30 天的時間在家中試用,如果不喜歡可以無條件退還。但我相信你會喜歡的。前往 8sleep.com/huberman,可以省下高達 350 美元的 Pod 4 Ultra。Eight Sleep 可以運送到包括墨西哥和阿聯酋在內的許多國家。再次提醒,網址是 8sleep.com/huberman,以便節省高達 350 美元的 Pod 4 Ultra。
    現在讓我們來談談耐力的另一個極端,即長時間耐力。這類型是人們通常想到耐力時所想到的。你在說的是長跑、長游泳、長騎自行車。好吧,這有多長呢?從 12 分鐘到幾個小時,甚至可能是一整天,也許是八或九小時的徒步旅行、跑步或騎自行車。有些人實際上在進行這些長期活動,例如馬拉松。你進入了規律的反覆努力,而你能夠持續這種努力主要依賴於運動的效率,依賴於你在運動本身、肌肉運動的產生以及來自不同來源的燃料利用之間尋找平衡。燃料利用來自神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺。
    那麼,我們不妨問一下,為什麼你會在長跑中失敗?為什麼你會放棄?你的心智會消耗更多或更少的能量,這取決於你有多少意志力,和你與自己有多少鬥爭以產生努力。我要強調的是,意志力在某種程度上是將資源專注於某事的能力,而這部分就是決定做或不做的決策。
    我並不是那種“一定要做”的心態。我認為有正確的時間和地點去訓練,但我也認為,反過來說,這會過度消耗資源,過多的反覆決策會消耗大量的認知能量,以至於在決定是否進行某次訓練時,所用的認知能量可能與實際訓練時的消耗相當。
    當你進行 30 分鐘的跑步時,你是在建立下一次重複那種表現的能力,同時更加高效,實際上燃燒更少的燃料。
    這聽起來可能有點反直覺,但每當你進行這樣的長距離跑步時,其實你是在增強線粒體的密度。這並不僅僅是有關線粒體的氧化和呼吸。你是在累積線粒體的密度。你實際上在增加你在特定運動量下可以產生的ATP數量。你變得更有效率。你進行同樣的活動時,總體的能量消耗更少。這正是這些長時間的慢速距離或持續的努力所要達到的真正目的。
    那麼,為什麼要進行這樣的長時間努力呢?你為什麼想這麼做?這對你有什麼好處?其實它做了一件非常重要的事,就是增強肌肉內的毛細血管床。這些就像小小的通道,像小溪和河口之間更大的動脈和靜脈。你可以真正地建立新的毛細血管。你可以在你的肌肉內創造新的小溪。 我剛才提到的12分鐘或更長時間穩定的努力類型非常有助於這一點,並且對於增加線粒體,即細胞內產生能量的元素,實際的肌肉細胞非常有用。原因是當血液抵達肌肉時,它帶有氧氣。肌肉會使用一些氧氣,然後一些去氧的血液會被送回心臟和肺部。現在,建立的毛細血管越多,提供給肌肉的氧氣就越多。因此,這種長時間的工作,與我們之前討論過的如平板支撐等肌肉耐力,真正是關於建立毛細血管系統和線粒體,即肌肉本身的能量利用系統。
    而最近幾年之中出現了兩種在這方面引起大量關注和興奮的訓練方式,有時稱為高強度間歇訓練。那麼我們先談談無氧耐力。從協議的角度來看,無氧耐力將是三到十二組訓練。這些訓練將根據你能以良好、安全的形式完成工作的速度來進行。所以可以是快的,也可以是慢的。隨著訓練的進行,你的重複次數可能會減少,也可能會加快,但通常會減少。
    那麼這些訓練是什麼樣的呢?記住長距離慢速訓練是一組,肌肉耐力是三到五組,而高強度無氧耐力則在三到十二組之間,工作與休息的比例在三比一到一比五之間。那麼,一個三比一的比例組將會是什麼樣子呢?比如說,30秒的高強度踩腳踏車,或是跑步,或是划船,這些只是例子,可以是在游泳池游泳或者做空氣深蹲等,如果你能管理這30秒的高強度訓練。10秒的休息是非常短暫的。因此三比一的 good example 就是在30秒內訓練,然後休息10秒。而極端的比例就是一比五,比如說20秒的高強度,100秒的休息。所以你做20秒的訓練,然後休息100秒。
    現在讓我們看看三比一的比例。如果你要在腳踏車上進行30秒的高強度踩踏,然後休息10秒,比如使用這種所謂的攻擊自行車。然後你在10秒後再重複。你可能能做一組、兩組、三組、四組,甚至多達12組。如果你真的在良好的狀態下,你就能完成這些,因為腳踏車的踩踏並不需要太多的技巧。如果你做得不正確,比如說你的手肘稍微外展,那麼受傷的可能性非常小,除非是非常極端的情況。
    好吧,但如果用壺鈴來進行同樣的動作,比如30秒高強度踩踏、10秒休息,第一組可能會保持良好的形式。第二組還會相當不錯,但假如你進入第五、第六組時,仍然是30秒高強度,10秒休息,那麼你的重複動作的質量可能會顯著下降,這樣就提高了受傷的可能性。如果動作的質量很重要。因此,也許這是用重量進行的深蹲。所以你會做20秒的高強度,然後休息100秒。你將會發現,儘管是20秒的高強度努力,隨後是100秒的長時間休息,這將讓你能在安全的情況下隨著時間的推移進行更多的高質量重複動作。
    於是你可能會做三組20秒的高強度努力,然後休息100秒。然後重複20秒的高強度努力,再休息100秒,20秒的努力,再休息100秒。你每週可能做兩次。這樣做你會增強我們所稱的無氧耐力。無氧耐力將會使你的體系達到超過100% 的最大攝氧量,讓你的心率升得非常高,並且最大化你的氧氣利用系統。這將會對你在訓練中的疲勞產生影響,而這種疲勞會引發適應。
    那麼,究竟是什麼樣的適應呢?其實它會促進線粒體呼吸,也就是你的線粒體更有效地利用氧氣來產生更多的能量,因為你在極限使用著氧氣,實際上你已經達到了最大攝氧量,並且超過了你的VO2最大攝氧量,你正在達到一個臨界點,這樣的話你就會最大化你在系統內的氧氣使用。一個適應的結果是你的線粒體會發生變化,使它們能夠使用更多的氧氣。
    你也會增加毛細血管床,但不會像增加肌肉神經參與程度那麼多。通常,當我們開始感到疲勞、精疲力竭,並且呼吸急促時,身體的各個系統是相連的,並且這也有心理層面的因素,一種激勵的成分。在進行第三組、第四組或第六組,無論是20秒鍛鍊、100秒休息,還是30秒鍛鍊、10秒休息,終究會有一種想要停止的感覺。透過努力堅持並安全地重複另一組,你實際上是在訓練神經元能夠獲取更多的能量,將其實質轉化為ATP,因而讓肌肉能夠獲取更多的能量和ATP。適應的關鍵在於線粒體使用氧氣的能力。這對於其他類型的運動有著巨大的延伸效果。在競技運動或團隊運動中,尤其是需要短跑的活動中,例如在場上需要運球並射門;或者在打網球時,當進行長時間的對打,突然有人開始給你施壓,這時你必須使出最大的努力跑到網前將球擊過去,這類情況都能從這種訓練中受益。
    有許多地方都能延續這類訓練的效果,但它確實支持耐力訓練。這是關於肌肉耐力的問題,這些肌肉在短期內產生大量力量的能力,還要能夠重複進行。這是你該理解的方式。這與最大力量不同。儘管它感覺像是在發揮最大努力,但這與增強肌肉的力量和速度並不相同,這是截然不同的訓練方式。因此,關鍵元素再次是你將呼吸和氧氣利用率提高到超過你的最大值。它並不是完全達到失敗狀態,但你確實將系統推到了你準備不了解的另一組的程度。然而,還是開始進行了另一組。心理上你未必做好準備。
    我想強調第四種訓練方案,即高強度有氧訓練。高強度間歇訓練(HIIT)有這兩種形式:無氧和有氧。你剛剛聽到了無氧部分。高強度有氧訓練也涉及大約三到十二組。一對一的比率對於建立大多數能量系統來說是非常有效的。你還記得我們有神經、肌肉、血液、心臟和肺。比率一對一的情況下,或許你跑一英里,無論這需要多長時間。假設你跑第一英里的時間是七分鐘,然後休息七分鐘,再跑一英里,可能需要八分鐘,然後休息八分鐘。你持續這樣做,一共完成四英里的運動,也就是說四英里的跑步運動。你可以逐漸增加這個訓練強度。許多人發現,透過這類訓練,他們能夠參加半程馬拉松或馬拉松,儘管在比賽之前,他們從未真正跑過半程馬拉松或馬拉松。
    這聽起來似乎不可思議。怎麼可能是跑一英里,然後休息,再跑一英里,再休息相同時間,這樣七英里卻能讓你連續跑13英里或26英里呢?這是因為它改善了肌肉中的ATP和線粒體功能。它使血液能夠向肌肉和腦部輸送更多的氧氣。它還允許你的心臟整體上提供更多的氧氣,並增強了巨大的肺活量。
    那麼這樣的訓練怎樣實施?何時應該進行?這實際上是針對這些訓練提問的問題:在八到十二分鐘內能完成多少工作,然後休息,然後重複。你可以在八到十二分鐘內做多少訓練工作,然後休息,再重複幾次?這是相當激烈的,所以如果你沒有其他活動,可能每週只想進行兩到三次。
    我們擁有四種耐力訓練,包括肌肉耐力、長時間耐力、高強度間歇訓練的兩種類型:無氧和有氧。而最後這種有氧訓練似乎在一對一的比率下效果最好。
    那麼你該如何利用這些訓練,它們實際上在做什麼?讓我們談談心臟、肺和氧氣,因為這是我們大家都能受益於的理解。大腦和心臟可能是你需要在生活中照顧的兩個最重要的系統。維持或增強大腦功能和心血管功能顯然對於健康和長壽在短期和長期都是關鍵的。而我今天討論的這些訓練方法已經多次證明對增強思維的力量非常有用。是的,我也會談到這對大腦和身體的健康。
    我想稍作休息,並感謝我們的贊助商Function。我最近成為Function的一名會員,因為我在尋找最全面的實驗室檢測方案。儘管我一直非常喜歡血液檢測,但我真的想找到一個更深入的計劃,來分析我的血液、尿液和唾液,以更全面地了解我的心臟健康、激素狀況、免疫調節狀況、代謝功能、維生素和礦物質狀況,以及其他影響我整體健康和活力的重要領域。Function不僅提供100多項對身體和心理健康至關重要的生物標誌物的檢測,還會分析這些結果並提供頂尖醫生的見解。
    例如,在我第一次與 Function 的測試中,我發現自己的血液中汞的水平偏高。Function 不僅幫助我檢測到這一點,還提供了減少汞水平的最佳建議,包括減少吞拿魚的攝取。坦白說,那時我吃了很多吞拿魚,同時也努力攝取更多的深綠色蔬菜,並補充 NAC 和乙酰半胱氨酸,這兩者都有助於支持穀胱甘肽的生成和排毒。順便提一下,這確實有效。我的汞水平現在已經穩定在健康範圍內。像這樣全面的實驗室檢測對健康至關重要,因為我們血液和身體的其他地方有許多事情在進行,而沒有高品質的血液和尿液測試,我們是無法檢測到的。雖然我努力了很多年想要進行這些檢測,但這一直非常複雜,坦白說,也相當昂貴。Function 大大簡化了這一切,並使其變得非常實惠。我對 Function 的印象非常深刻,因此決定加入他們的科學顧問委員會,我也很高興他們贊助這個播客。如果你想試試 Function,可以訪問 functionhealth.com/huberman。在這一週,即2025 年 4 月 14 日至 4 月 20 日,Function 正在為前 1,000 名註冊 Function 會員的人提供 100 美元的抵用金。要獲取這 100 美元的抵用金,請在結帳時使用優惠碼 Huberman100。訪問 functionhealth.com/huberman 了解更多信息並開始使用。
    那麼讓我們來談談在這些不同形式的訓練中,您的大腦和身體發生的有益適應。如果你的呼吸急促,心臟也在劇烈跳動,那這肯定是在高強度無氧和有氧訓練中,因為你正在接近你的 VO2 最大值,而在高強度的無氧訓練中,你則超過了你的 VO2 最大值。將要發生的事是,當然,隨著你的心跳加速,你的血液循環速度也會加快。肌肉中的氧氣利用率將會提高。隨著時間的推移,不久之後,那些毛細血管床開始擴張時,因為返回心臟的血液量增加,當你進行這些非常劇烈的努力時,重複進行,返回心臟的血液量實際上會對心臟的某一肌肉壁造成偏心負荷。因此你的心臟是肌肉,屬於心臟肌肉。我們有附著在骨骼上的骨骼肌,還有心臟肌肉,就是我們的心臟。當因為你的肌肉和神經所做的額外工作,更多的血液返回心臟時,這實際上會造成一種偏心負荷,推動左側牆壁。我意識到我在這裡沒有使用嚴格的解剖學,但我不想深入討論心臟的結構特徵。但是左心室基本上是被猛撞回來,然後不得不反向推回,形成一種心臟肌肉的偏心負荷,隨著更多的血液返回心臟,肌肉變厚。這有一個適應,即心臟肌肉實際上變得更強大,因此每次搏動每次收縮能夠泵送更多的血液。當它這樣做時,因為血液含有葡萄糖、氧氣及其他物質,它能夠提供更多的燃料給你的肌肉,這使你能在單位時間內進行更多的工作。如果你進行這種高強度的訓練,當你的心臟跳動得非常快,像我之前描述的一對一比例的英里跑重複,過不久你的心臟每次的搏動量會真正增加。因此,作為結果,你能夠為你的肌肉和大腦提供更多的燃料。你的認知功能會改善。這一點一次又一次地被證明,因為血管系統,字面上說,腦內的毛細血管床、海馬體、支持記憶的區域,還有支持呼吸、專注和努力的腦區也會隨之增長。
    現在,舉重訓練在大腦功能上也有一些積極的影響。然而,很明顯,你現在應該直覺地理解為什麼那種標準的力量和肌肉增長類型的鍛煉不會激活血氧化和心臟搏出量的增加,而今天我所講的訓練類型卻會。它只是沒有相同的正面效果。另一個在耐力型工作中非常重要的考慮因素是水分補充。我認為水分對於所有形式的體力工作和運動都很重要,不僅僅是耐力。通常,我們每小時的運動會失去一到五磅的水分。這會有很大的變化。這會隨著天氣而變化。這也會隨著強度而變化,如果是在熱天高強度運動時,可能更接近五磅。因此,如果你考慮你的體重(以磅為單位),一旦你失去約一到四個百分比的體重水分,你將經歷約 20% 到 30% 的工作能力減少,在進行任何形式的努力(力量、耐力等)方面的能力也會下降。你也會體驗到在思考和執行智力操作方面能力的顯著下降。因此,水分補充是關鍵。鉀、鈉和鎂也是非常重要的。是的,確實如此。飲用過多的水確實可能會致命,因為這會迫使你,如果你喝太多的水,你將排泄過多的電解質,而你的大腦將關閉。你的心臟實際上會停止正常運作。因此,你也不想極端地過量飲水。 一個簡單的公式,我稱之為 Galpin 方程式,就是你的體重(以磅為單位)除以 30。
    這就是你每15分鐘運動應該飲用的盎司數量。
    現在,如果你出汗很多,你可能需要更多。
    如果你已經非常充分地補充水分,你可能需要的就會少一些,但這是一個開始的好準則。
    這有助於讓你理解水分補充與表現之間的關係。
    今天我們沒有深入討論補充劑。
    在之前的幾集裡,我討論了磷酸肌酸系統以及補充肌酸。
    我們還談到了beta alanine,適用於中等時長的運動。
    你知道,真正被證明能顯著改善耐力運動的只有幾種補充劑,涵蓋了我今天描述的四種耐力運動。
    這些補充劑本質上有兩種形式。
    一種是興奮劑。
    像咖啡因這樣的物質肯定能改善耐力運動和力量輸出。
    某些形式的鎂,特別是蘋果酸鎂(magnesium malate),已被證明在減少或緩解延遲性肌肉疼痛方面有幫助。
    這種類型的鎂與有助於促進睡眠的鎂是顯著不同的,後者包括甘氨酸鎂和蘋果酸鎂等。
    總的來說,今天我們主要集中在行為工具上。
    我希望我能夠向你們展示,耐力不僅僅是一種能力。
    它不僅僅是能夠進行不同類型的長時間運動。
    還有這種與神經元運作方式相關的心理成分。
    此外,還有不同形式的耐力,肌肉耐力,這種耐力的失敗是由於肌肉及其能量利用和支配這些肌肉的神經所致,而不是因為氧氣或血液供應的失敗。
    而長時間的運動則更多地關於保持在你的最大攝氧量(VO2 max)以下,以及在超過12分鐘的運動時間內保持效率的能力。
    一組訓練,正如他們所說的,可能是12分鐘到幾個小時。
    高強度訓練則會利用其他燃料來源和機制,正如我們今天所學的。
    最後但同樣重要的是,感謝你對科學的興趣。

    In this Huberman Lab Essentials episode, I explain how to build endurance and describe targeted protocols to enhance different types of endurance.

    I discuss how endurance—the ability to sustain effort—requires the coordination of physical and mental systems driven by energy availability, brain willpower, and specific training adaptations in the muscles, heart, lungs and neurons. I explain conditioning protocols designed to enhance four types of endurance, from long-duration steady state to muscular endurance and high-intensity intervals, and how each training style triggers unique adaptations in the body and brain, such as improved mitochondrial function and oxygen utilization. Additionally, I highlight the crucial role of hydration and electrolytes, which are essential for neural function and influence the brain’s willpower to sustain effort.

    Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com.

    Thank you to our sponsors

    AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman

    LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman

    Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman

    Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman

    Follow Huberman Lab

    Timestamps

    00:00:00 Huberman Lab Essentials; Build Endurance

    00:00:50 Energy Sources, ATP, Oxygen

    00:04:14 Neurons & Willpower, Glucose & Electrolytes

    00:09:19 Heart, Lungs; Physiology & Performance Limiting Factors

    00:10:35 Sponsor: AG1

    00:12:30 Muscular Endurance, Protocol, Concentric Movements, Mitochondria

    00:19:10 Sponsors: LMNT & Eight Sleep

    00:22:00 Long-Duration Endurance, Efficiency, Mitochondria, Capillaries

    00:25:54 High-Intensity Interval Training (HIIT), Anaerobic Endurance, Protocol

    00:32:33 High-Intensity Aerobic Endurance, Adaptations

    00:35:30 Sponsor: Function

    00:37:26 Brain & Body Adaptations, Heart

    00:40:40 Hydration, Tool: Galpin Equation

    00:42:21 Supplements, Stimulants, Magnesium Malate

    00:43:11 Recap & Key Takeaways

    Disclaimer & Disclosures