The Gray Area with Sean Illing

  • Rep. Pramila Jayapal on immigrants and America after 9/11

    Aarti Shahani, host of the WBEZ Chicago podcast Art of Power and author of the memoir Here We Are, talks with Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) about how 9/11 changed the relationship between immigrants and America.…


  • Why America’s obsession with rights is wrong

    Vox’s Zack Beauchamp talks with Columbia law professor Jamal Greene about his book How Rights Went Wrong: Why Our Obsession With Rights Is Tearing America Apart. They discuss how the US obsession with rights and…


  • The news is by — and for — rich, white liberals

    Vox’s Sean Illing talks with professor and media researcher Nikki Usher about her new book News for the Rich, White, and Blue, which documents systemic problems in the ways journalists and institutions decide what counts as…


  • Clint Smith III on confronting the legacy of slavery

    Vox’s Jamil Smith talks with author Clint Smith III about his book How the Word Is Passed, which documents the writer’s personal journey visiting sites that embody the legacy of American slavery. They discuss the…


  • Was the cruelty the point?

    Vox’s Sean Illing talks with Adam Serwer, whose new book The Cruelty Is the Point documents the role of cruelty in American politics, the way it was weaponized by the GOP during the Trump administration,…


  • How seashells shaped the world — and predict our future

    Vox’s Benji Jones talks with author and environmental journalist Cynthia Barnett about seashells and her new book, The Sound of the Sea. They discuss the evolutionary function and human appeal of seashells, the surprising role…


  • Bill Maher on free speech, comedy, and his haters

    Vox’s Sean Illing talks with comedian Bill Maher about the risks and challenges of political comedy today, free speech, and whether ideology undermines humor. They discuss how Maher — who’s been out front on issues…


  • Robert Reich wants you to take on the system

    Vox’s Jamil Smith talks with former labor secretary, author, and social media gadfly Robert Reich about how our elected officials have fallen victim to the interests of the wealthy, what the pandemic exposed about our…


  • Marty Baron on the future of news

    Vox’s Sean Illing talks with former Washington Post executive editor Marty Baron about the state of journalism. They discuss Baron’s post-retirement reflections on both the Post and the profession at large, what’s gone wrong with…


  • The death of cool

    Vox culture contributor Anne Helen Petersen talks with writer Safy-Hallan Farah about the concept of ‘cool.’ They discuss different generations’ approaches to determining what’s cool, how the concept of ‘cool’ gets tangled up with class,…